I Am Falling In Love With a Man Who Is Finalizing His Divorce. Should I Back Off or Can This Work Out?
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These are perfectly fair thoughts that men usually don’t express, to protect you. Then again, just because we have a thought doesn’t mean that we don’t have equally contradictory thoughts.
“I’m very attracted to you.”
“I do see the benefits of monogamy, especially in raising a close nuclear family.”
“I may be having doubts, but I’ve yet to find a partner who makes me as happy as you.”
Clearly, I have some experience in this realm, and, as always, my wife is the exception to the rule. She had been burned before, by a cheating husband. And all she ever asked was to know exactly where she stood – even when it wasn’t what she wanted to hear. So when I openly expressed my reservations that I wasn’t “feeling what I thought I should be feeling”…she didn’t panic. She took it in and let me process. I proposed to her two weeks later and am EXTREMELY happy that I did.
Because you have clarity, you think it should be equally obvious for your partner. Alas, it’s not so simple.
To bring it back to you, Sunshine, your guy is in a position that millions of divorcees confront as they’re getting back out into the dating market. He likes you, he’s attracted to you, he desires a long-term relationship…but just doesn’t know if he’s ready to dive in again. He’s lonely. He’s made mistakes before. He wants to look before he leaps. But he just can’t help himself when he’s around you.
As such, he’s genuinely conflicted. And that’s the hardest part to deal with when you’re not conflicted. Because you have clarity, you think it should be equally obvious for your partner. Alas, it’s not so simple.
Be thankful that you have a man who respects you enough to speak his mind, be cautious that his reservations are legitimate, and be respectful of the fact that his process might be trickier than your process.
All I can say is that I guarantee that you will definitely not fall in love if you cut him off out of fear; you at least have a chance if you let him come to his own conclusions.
At least that’s what my wife thinks.
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- Does My Ex-Girlfriend Still Want Me Back or Is She Just Using Me?
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65 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice
Janet 1
Maybe there is a part of the letter that was cut before posting, but I don’t see where he says that he wants a LTR (and nothing that says he doesn’t). From what we’ve read here, what he wants long-term is an unknown.
A lot of people don’t want that again after getting divorced, and that ambivalence might be part of his pulling back. Maybe she should ask.
Honey 2
I think really the solution is to approach it exactly as you would any other dating situation…don’t read too much into what he says, watch what he does and how he treats you, don’t try to rush or force the situation because you are afraid, enjoy his company and wait to see how things evolve, enjoy the emotions you are having in response to his company but don’t assume there is an implied promise of forever. That’s what it’s always all about, isn’t it?
Janet 3
Also, she doesn’t say anything about what she wants, either. She thinks they can have “something really special together.” What does that mean exactly?
This goes to Honey’s point on the other thread–assuming that they both want “tradition LTR” might be wrong here.
JoAnn Anglin 4
Having been in an almost identical situation, I’d say proceed with caution is the least of it. His whole sense of identity will change as he gets used to the idea of being divorced, and he may never resolve his sorrow over it. For me, I was so sure of how perfect we were for each other, that I’d just bide my time. I was way more invested in this than even I realized. A 1.5 year relationship took about 5 years to get over, with individual counseling and a support group. Nobody’s a ‘bad guy,’ but it can be devastating none the less. Hold off and hold back is good advice, but as the cw song says, the heart has a mind of its own.
Paul 5
Maybe it’s time we stopped trying so hard to be politically correct and shoot straight for once. Evan…you whimped out. Sorry, but it’s true. The gentleman should back off and so should she. Any divorce class in the world that is worth it’s salt will tell you that right after a divorce, or worse yet, before it is final, is NOT the time to be out forging new relationships. Most classes tell you it’ll be a good year, or more realistically two years, before you are healed, healthy, and ready top start dating again. It takes two healthy people to have a healthy relationship, and if a part of you is still in the old one, then that’s just all that much less you have to give to someone else…and we all expect to have 100% of someones heart when we’re giving 100% of ours. It simply isn’t fair to the other person not to have 100% to give. If you are going through, or just getting out of a divorce, you are hurt, you’ve suffered a loss and there isn’t any getting around it. Thing is, we think we are ready when we’re clearly not in most instances. I know this from experience. It’s easier being on the outside looking in than being the one who is all excited about someone and looking for ways to justify it, I understand that. But the truth is the vast majority of people are not ready right after a divorce…especially if the marriage lasted 34 years! Now, I’m not saying it can’t work for these two, but she has to give him some time, and he has clearly stated he doesn’t know where he’s at.
zann 6
I whole-heartedly agree with Honey (#2). It’s all a gamble anyway, whether you’re recently divorced, been widowed for years, never been married, or have been divorced 14 different times. Everyone heals differently and everyone has their own relationship history, clear back to their family of origin. In spite of that, I still think Evan’s advice is sound and comforting. I know many women (me included) tend to think the bold, definitive, even courageous move was to get out of Dodge the minute the guy shows any kind of hesitation..what I call The Ambivalence Reactionary Maneuver. Cut your losses, don’t give him a chance to dump you, march out of it with your head up high, and be sure to slam the door on your way out. Yea, yea, yea. You go girl. Well, that clean-break high lasts about… a day. Real maturity, self-love, and courage are what’s at work when you can hang in there — not like some needy, clinging puppy and not like some delusional overly-optomistic Pollyanna, but as a realist. If you keep yourself open to the man while at the same time keeping yourself open to the rest of your life, too — which you should do anyways, whether in or out of a relationship — you’ve got the best shot at having a relationship that will endure these rough spots and continue to grow into something deeper. No guarantees here, but there never is. I think Paul (#5) has some very valid points, but I disagree with the conclusion that You Should Never Date A Recent Divorcee. I was separated a year after a 20 yr marriage when a man initiated a relationship with me. I was clueless at the time, thought I was doing “fine,” but was actually a basketcase — a complete novice at being a single adult again. This guy stuck with me, was empathetic and self-confident but so very, very kind. Without being a doormat, he continued to treat me lovingly but gave me whatever space I wanted (trust me, I didn’t know what I wanted). I flip-flopped over and over and when my divorce became legally final, all of my insecurities erupted all over again. Eventually, due to his patience and steadiness, I was able to see this new man as an incredible gift and started showing my sincere gratitude, got outside of my self-involvement and gave back all that had been given to me. I was extremely lucky, I know, and I’m not saying everyone should be that patient. My point is simply that there are no hard and fast rules; and even if there were, there are exceptions to every rule.
For this one, my vote it so hang in there, with poise.
Don 7
I think you have done a great job describing some real thoughts that are going through many men’s head in a time like this. Everything isn’t black and white and some people can’t handle hearing that and some people can.
Jessica 8
Sunshine,
Back off. You are not his therapist, but hopefully a future girlfriend or wife. Be thankful that he is a good communicator, but you need not carry his load of doubts, and wear yourself out in the process. Your guy needs urgent therapy, not an overly patient almost-girlfriend. Then, AFTER he’s healed, he may be a great guy for you.
Ava 9
I’ve got to agree with Paul. I have been there. Twice. Both men had been married less than 10 years, and I can tell you, they were NOT ready prior to the divorce. They WANTED to be ready, and yes, they liked me a lot and thought they WERE ready, but when push came to shove, they bailed. When the LW says “I think it just really hit him, thought he was doing fine.”, boy, does that sound familiar.
In one case, the guy was a already good friend, and our friendship was ultimately ruined. In the other case, once the divorce became final, the man was much more upset about it then he thought he’d be. Both men had assured me they were fine with their break-ups. It’s very hard for me to imagine a man being ready so soon, after 34 years.
Sure, every situation is different and should be evaluated on its own merit, but the odds on this one aren’t very good. That doesn’t that mean they can’t work down the road, but I’ve found that getting involved too soon can ruin any chance of things working out in the future. I’d back off on this one – I don’t believe this man, even with the best intentions, is emotionally available. The LW doesn’t want to end up being the rebound girl, and her man saying “he’s not sorted through his emotions like he thought he had” is the equivalent of waiving a big, red flag.
Janet #3
“Something really special”. Yes, she means an LTR, not a short-term fling. She wouldn’t bother writing this letter if she didn’t.
Ava 10
I have been there. Twice. And I’ve had friends who have been there as well. In my case, both men thought they were ready, wanted to be ready, said they liked me a lot. But they weren’t ready. Both men had been married less than 10 years. When the LW says “The divorce will be final within the next 2 months and I think it just really hit him, thought he thought he was doing fine”, it sounds painfully familiar. In my case, one man was a good friend (friendship ruined after the romance failed), and the other fell apart as soon as the divorce became final. I’m told that, no matter how long people are separated for, the finalization of the divorce is still very traumatic.
Yes, every situation should be evaluated on its own merit, but I don’t believe that it’s possible for this man to be ready for a new relationship so soon, not after ending a 34 year marriage. Perhaps this relationship can work out later on, but the odds on it now are not good. This man simply isn’t emotionally available. “He told me last night that he came to the realization that he’s not sorted through his emotions like he thought he had” is the equivalent of her man waiving a big, red flag. She doesn’t want to become the rebound girl, and she is better off waiting until her man has had a chance to mourn the loss of his marriage. And yes, I’d guess that the LW is hoping for an LTR with him.
Zann #6
While I’m glad your guy stuck with you, I can’t say that flip-flopping “over and over and over again” is really a great deal for the other person.
dadshouse 11
She already answered it – he hasn’t sorted through his emotions. He’s in no shape to enter a new relationship. I’m divorced, and I started dating immediately after separating. I needed the touch of a woman. 9 months later, I met a woman I wanted to be in an LTR with. We broke up a year later. It wasn’t until 3 years after my divorce that I had truly processed most of my emotional junk. And during those 3 years, I tried reconciling with my wife on multiple occasions. I was in no shape to move on.
If a divorced person is still working through stuff, they aren’t ready for a lasting relationship. Period.
Casey 12
I was in a similar situation about six months ago, although this man’s divorce was not almost final. In fact, it was not going well at all. There’s a lot of anger between him and his estranged wife, the divorce is contested on a number of issues, there are children involved, etc. Any lawyer worth having will tell you not to date while your divorcing not only because of the emotional issues, but also because it makes things worse from a legal/settlement standpoint, particularly in a contested divorce.
But, I digress. In the end, he broke it off. We had a conversation after that, where he mentioned staying in contact. So, I sent him a few emails, and never received a response (never mentioning getting back together, but saying that if he wanted to talk, I was there to listen). I realized that he either didn’t want any contact with me or contact by me made him feel pressured…or as is more likely the case, probably a combination of the above and a lot of other things I have no idea about.
I realize that we didn’t go out that long, and he doesn’t owe me anything. He may have owed it to both of us to know the truth of where he was at, that he wasn’t really ready to date seriously and as that was the case, he shouldn’t have let things go as far as they did (as I shouldn’ t have either). However, I respect the fact that he talked to me about it and was as honest as he could be instead of just disappearing.
Just so you know Evan, I want the truth from men, and sometimes it hurts…a lot. I don’t always know what to do with the hurt, not because I don’t want to hear it, but because often men send mixed messages trying to avoid hurting womens’ feelings (actually most people do this…men and women alike). When in this situation, a man often flip-flops and says things you have no idea what to do with because he contradicts what he just said making it hard to know what the right thing for you to do is.
Sure Sunshine can ask if he wants a LTR, but one minute he’ll say yes; the next he’ll say no. He’s on an emotional roller coaster and will likely flip flop several times. So what does she do? Should she really ask that question?
I get I should have been more cautious, paid attention to the red flags, not had sex with him and all of that. I should have slowed things down and taken more time to get to know him and see where he was at. But, I didn’t and I screwed up. I know he bears some responsibility also, but given what he’s going through and I saw the red flags, I believe I bear the greater responsibility to have been the one to slow things down.
Having said all that, knowing what I should have done differently from the start, I have a few questions: When you say back off and give him space…what does that mean? To be supportive…what does that mean? Should I have done something differently, i.e., not just stopped contacting him when I didn’t receive a response to a few attempts to stay in touch?
I ask these questions because most of the men I will date in my age group will likely be divorced or in the process of getting a divorce, so I’d like to know if there are other things , other than those I’ve already mentioned above, that I could and should do differently.
Selena 13
What’s the rush? Why don’t you continue to spend time together and see if it develops into “something really special”?
It either will…or it won’t. No crystal ball prediction.
downtowngal 14
A lot of good discussion here. OP seems to be approaching things in the right way, asking good questions. Bottom line is that actions speak louder than words.
Guys who’ve been divorced have told me never to date a guy who’s going through or has just gone through a divorce if you’re looking for a ltr. They may end up having true feelings for you but at the end of the day only needed compantionship/diversion/ sex to get them through an emotinoal transition and aren’t able to commit emotionally.
Of course there are always exceptions but proceed w caution. OP, you’re right to be skeptical. You’ve been friends w this guy for a while and sounds as if there’s a great deal of mutual respect. And he’s already told you he needs to sort things out. Allow him the space to do that, spare yourself further heartbreak. if it’s meant to be he’ll return when he’s ready.
I have too many girlfriends who’ve had their hearts battered by seemingly terrific guys they’ve dated while ‘in transition’.
Ava 15
Casey #12
I have learned that you cannot go by what a man says, you have to evaluate him on your own reading of the situation. So if you are getting mixed messages, that is a red flag. But don’t beat yourself up. You really liked him and hoped for more, and you hoped the positive messages would win out over the negative ones.
I never date separated men now. It just seems so unlikely that they’ll be ready for what I want. But if I was interested in someone going through this, I would tell them to check back AFTER the divorce is finalized, and maybe WELL after.
I have been surprised (as have my friends) to encounter men who aren’t ready for a relationship – or even dating – for YEARS after their divorce. I’m talking 5-10+ years. I suspect they should have gotten professional help, but didn’t. In general, I also think that men process things differently. Women will get therapy, will rant and cry to their friends, while men often behave more stoically, and have a more difficult time expressing emotions.
Janet 16
Ava @9: “something special” means “LTR” to YOU. We don’t know what it means to the letter writer. It’s a good question to ask her.
Another good question to ask: What do the phrases “LTR” and “something special” mean to you?
Diana 17
I agree with many of the sentiments here. I know from my own excruciating divorce experience after a 26 year marriage, and from what I could gleam from my former husband’s experience, no matter how ready you believe yourself to be in moving on, the reality of going through the divorce process and solidifying this painful, final act in what was once a loving and lasting relationship is difficult to go through, and fraught with emotional peril.
He will have his good days and his bad days. As I am certain you know, he is likely dealing with feelings of guilt, regret, grief, anger, and confusion, and now he’s also dealing with longingly held feelings for you, Sunshine, that have now been escalated and compounded through your intimacy.
My suggestion is that I would let him know that while you care for him and you respect how he feels about you, and that you hope to have a future with him, you feel that it does your relationship a disservice not to be there wholly for each other. If your relationship is truly meant to be, then when his divorce is through, and he has allowed himself to have that emotional space and time that he needs to fully heal and find himself again, then you will be together, if that is what you both still want at that time.
Otherwise, you will become a part of his painful journey, and in the clearing, his new awakening and possibly yours, too, may reveal a different light that may have you realizing that his burden was not worth carrying.
This takes clarity and strength, and love of a different kind. I wish you well.
Ava 18
Janet #14
LTR and “something really special”, yes, for me they’d mean the same thing. I can’t read Sunshine’s mind, but if she is in fact, “falling in love” with this guy and writing a dating coach about her fears, my guess is that’s where she would like it to lead. That’s what I think “hopefully he can work through this and move on, hopefully with me” means.
Janet 19
Ava @ 18: “Falling in Love” is from the headline of the piece (an editorial insertion) and not from the letter itself. Again, maybe she says that in some part of the letter that didn’t make it onto the site, but it isn’t in the letter as posted.
I still don’t see where the LTR part comes into this, and today I am feeling the frustration of other posters on here who have spoken about this–that “dating” isn’t the same thing as a relationship, or an LTR, or a marriage. Further, not all people who are dating are looking for LTRs (especially among the male population), not all LTRs are marriages, not all marriages are LTRs. I mean, don’t you all know people with relationships that fall into these different categories or am I the only one? (Or maybe those with other viewpoints have left this board!:) )
But I do encourage this kind of discussion–every discussion starts with an agreement on the definition of terms. And it’s good to know, Ava, that you yourself hold the expectation that dating leads to falling in love to an LTR/marriage. It is also good to realize that not everyone holds this same expectation so that you can have these kinds of discussions upfront and not assume that the person you are dating wants or is expecting the same relationship trajectory. A lot of women get hurt when they assume this about the men they are dating. And, to be honest, I know many men who have been hurt in the same way.
Leftos 20
Evan’s got great advice no doubt about it. We also would encourage you to post the question on our site http://www.Leftos.com. We have a very dedicated, active, mature, and loyal user base that hopefully could help you. It’s also a very interesting conversation. The notion that Evan brings up about women not wanting truly hear what men are thinking is another great discussion. We’ll definitely point our users this way to check out this post.
Casey 21
Janet’s post reminded me of something that frustrates me…comments from well meaning people like:
Diana @ #17 – “If your relationship is truly meant to be, then when his divorce is through, and he has allowed himself to have that emotional space and time that he needs to fully heal and find himself again, then you will be together, if that is what you both still want at that time” or
downtowngal @ # 14 – ” if it’s meant to be he’ll return when he’s ready” or
Jessica @ #8 – “Then, AFTER he’s healed, he may be a great guy for you.”
Are you serious!!! How often does that ever happen?!?! Only in movies and books. Have you ever seen it to happen in real life? Especially after you’ve had sex and the man wasn’t ready for a new relationship (or the woman for that matter)? It’s utterly redickerous! An urban legend!
I know that most people say these things because they are only trying to be kind and didn’t want to upset the person more, but sugarcoating it just pisses me off! Stop putting foolish, romantic notions in my head…I’m already having a tough enough time with it. I’d rather you just said something like: “You screwed up and you’ll never a second chance with him…so learn from it, and I’ll be here to help and support you, and remind you if you’re getting close to screwing up again.” Cause that’s what I really need…not some idea right out of a fictional romantic book or movie that maybe he’ll come back some day when he gets it together and/or comes to his senses and realizes he made a mistake!
Sorry…it just really ticks me off!!! Rant over.
Ava 22
Janet #19
I think you are misinterpreting me. I never said that I “hold the expectation that dating leads to falling in love to an LTR/marriage”. All I’m saying is that I wouldn’t want to be in an LTR that I didn’t think was “something special”. If I thought a relationship had the potential to be that, then yes, I would hope that it would turn into something long-term. Obviously, not all dating leads to LTR. I think I figured that out quite sometime ago, thank you very much.
And I’m well aware that the “falling in love” headline is an editorial insertion. Again, I am inferring that a serious relationship is what the LW wants. If she was just casually dating and not looking for anything serious, I doubt that she’d have bothered to write or think that this relationship could be “something special” or that when this guy disengages from his marriage, she hopes that he will “move on” with her. “Move on” to what? A few months of casual sex? Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m simply not picking that up from her letter, and I’m not sure what is so frustrating to you about that.
Selena 23
Why use the ambiguous term “LTR” at all? Why not just say straight out what you mean:
“I want a relationship that will lead to marriage.”
Or,
“I want a relationship that is more than casually hooking up.”
“I want a long term relationship” is meaningless because:
1) No one can predict how long any relationship will actually last, and
2) What is long term to one person may not be long at all to another
Who goes about thinking they want a relationship that will last no less than 6 mos.? A year? 10 years? Dumb.
Diana 24
To Casey, color me confused.
My message was intended for Sunshine. I went back and re-read your first post and while similar, I sense that you rushed into your situation with a guy that is now clearly indicating he’s no longer interested. I don’t think any of us here need to try and knock some sense into your noggin, or banish foolish romantic, “never going to happen” thoughts from your mind, as you have already grown and learned from your experience what you were meant to learn. I am sorry it has been a painful and difficult time.
My comment to Sunshine was not intended to convey that she should wait for him because surely he’ll fall right back into her arms, once he’s recovered from his divorce. I was saying that they would be together, if that is what they both wanted at that time. By no means do I think that Sunshine should put her life on hold for him.
What should you have done differently? Backing off and giving him space means that you go about living your life, at least to me. For example, rather than your trying to reach him with supporting messages, he should have been the one trying to reach you. And as you know now, sleeping with him before knowing where you stood was a mistake.
As a woman, I know how incredibly hard curbing your own emotional needs can be, and when you send him messages, what you are truly doing is pacifying your own emotional needs first, cloaked in the desire to offer support. But men often feel emotionally overwhelmed by this. If he were still thinking of being with you, maybe there was something about the emotional intensity that he felt he couldn’t handle, and so he avoided it by avoiding you.
One of my hard and fast rules is to never get involved with a man who is currently separated or freshly widowed or divorced, though these men are in my age group, too. My own experience gave me the insight and the clarity to recognize what a difficult and painful situation that could create for me. But hey, we’re all human, doing the best we know how. We really are too hard on ourselves sometimes.
Selena 25
Casey,
Evan recommends “mirroring” for women when it comes to men. Example would be waiting for him to contact you, phone, emails, etc. which you return in kind. Not initiating them early on in dating. I can understand how for some women that can be hard to do – seems too passive perhaps – but it is the best way to gauge the man’s level of interest.
And I agree with Diana, you are being too hard on yourself over how you handled the situation you were in.
Janet 26
Ava@22: What is frustrating to me is the obvious ambiguity of the terms used in these kinds of discussions (see Selena @23) and the assumption that everyone means what we mean when we use these terms, and the assumption that everyone wants the same thing out of a relationship.
I’m in a so-called “serious” LTR, and for the life of me I wouldn’t try to tell anybody what these terms mean for them. (I will, however, be able to provide plenty of evidence, research, examples, etc. as to what these terms do NOT mean.) But I have a very diverse group of friends and acquaintances and have a global career, so I’ve been fortunate enough to see a lot of things that throw into question “the way it is” in American monogamy-land. A lot of the assumptions on here are very demographic-specific, it seems to me (white, middle-class American, liberal, educated, not practicing a religion).
So when Sayanta talks about wanting a man who values spirituality, abstenance before marriage, female empowerment, commitment, and who is intelligent/educated and takes care of himself physically, I really hear where she is coming from–which is a background different from the one I described in the previous paragraph. And here’s the thing–there are other people (men AND women) who are with her and will appreciate her precisely because of this difference from that mainstream American demographic. May not find them here, though–I guess all of us tend to gravitate toward ideas that resonate with us and away from those that don’t.
Will say, however, coming from my white, middle-class American, well-educated background (don’t discuss my politics or religion usually) that these kinds of assumptions do produce lots of good songs (“you say potato, I say potato…”).
Janet 27
Oops! Major oversight! I left “straight” off of the list above. Guess that oversight reveals that that’s what I am–I didn’t even consider that a gay person might be weighing in on this site.
Though just to confuse things further–I do know men who are gay/bi who want to be or are married to women and might be looking for dating/sex/marriage advice.
Now THAT would be an interesting letter on here!!
Jennifer 28
Janet #26
I agree with what you say here : “May not find them here, though I guess all of us tend to gravitate toward ideas that resonate with us and away from those that don’t.”
I for one find it very tiring to always go through the ‘who says she wants a LTR/marriage/serious relationship’ discussion every time someone writes in to Evan with a question. No one would go onto a swingers discussion board and wax poetic about the importance of sexual monogamy. Not saying this is a ‘marriage/LTR’ board, but if more people here tend to think along those lines than not, why keep forcing the issue? It just seems to me a good way to keep everyone’s frustration level higher than necessary.
And I’m not white nor am I an athiest. But I do know that one exception doesn’t make the ‘rule’ any less prevalent; just adding this in as a data point.
Jennifer 29
I feel that Evan has targeted himself pretty well for a certain demographic. He has programs on Finding the One Online, books on Why You’re Still Single (with the presumption that you don’t want to be anymore), gives seminars for women looking to establish relationships, appears on t.v. as a relationship expert.
A great deal of (women) who consume dating and relationship material do so with the intention of creating a long term relationship (most often that will lead to marriage).
Of course these aren’t the only women in the world, nor is this the only view on relationships in the world. But it seems to be the niche that Evan has carved out for himself, so questioning every letter writer as to her real intentions just seems a bit unnecessary to me. Not because other viewpoints are wrong or not valid, but because *the women who tend to write to Evan* don’t seem to be coming from that place.
Casey 30
Alright…wow!!! I find this thread fascinating because, of all the blog entries I’ve read on Evan’s website, this one seems to have more misunderstandings/misinterpretations between people making comments than I’ve seen before. Ehhh..maybe it’s just me.
Anyway, I’m apologize if I upset anyone with my little rant. I didn’t think Diana, downtowngirl and/or Jessica were talking to me with those comments. I’m sorry it was unclear that those were examples of similar things said to me by well meaning people. When I re-worded one of my sentences, I forgot to add back in that they were examples. But frankly, it really ticks me off whether those types of comments are made to me or anyone else because I…and maybe no one else feels this way…find it a unrealistic and somewhat patronizing. That’s what my rant was about…not aimed at anyone specific…I just got off on a rant.
Diana @ 24 and Selena @ 25 – As for me needing to curb my emotions or not mirroring or whatever…ummmm….yeah, about that…no. We are talking about only a few emails: one that told him to call if he just wanted to talk, one thanking him for providing some information I needed, and one was a funny story I copied him and a few other friends on because I thought they, and he, might find it humorous. As for mirroring, I did that also. True I contacted him first because I liked his profile. But, he was the one initiating the emailing, texting, calling, asking me out and telling me he took his profile down.
I asked these questions: “When you say back off and give him space what does that mean? To be supportive what does that mean? Should I have done something differently, i.e., not just stopped contacting him when I didn’t receive a response to a few attempts to stay in touch (which, by the way, he suggested we stay in touch)?” because I’ve been accused of being too unemotional and unsupportive…too independent by my ex-husband and ex-boyfriends. So, I was curious if there was something else I should be doing…thinking maybe I wasn’t being emotional or supportive enough…maybe I should have hung in there a little longer…maybe called or emailed him a few more times to see how he was doing.
But, hey thanks for playing — although you were way off base — answering the questions you thought asked, rather than the ones I asked.
Happy Holidays everyone!
Ava 31
Jennifer #28, 29
My sentiments exactly. Lots of semantic hair-splitting going on here. Labeling or implying that anyone is “dumb” or less sophisticated for wanting a serious relationship or marriage is pretty astonishing to me, especially on a website such as this one. Seems like a distraction from the LW’s original question about whether or not she should stick out a relationship (even one as yet undefined) with a not-yet-divorced man.
Selena 32
@ Casey #30
Maybe it’s just me, but when someone says they need space I interpret it as “Don’t call me, I’ll call you.”
“Stay in touch”? Could be just an attempt to be polite. Could be an attempt to keep someone on the back burner in case they wanted to come back for sex or something sometime. Or, maybe the person genuinely wouldn’t mind be contacted once in awhile just to say” Hi” and “How’s it going?” Hard to know which.
I don’t know what you could have done different in your situation. It seems it was a case of HJNTIY.
If you’ve been frustrated by well-meaning comments from your friends along the lines of “If it was meant to be…” etc., why don’t you just shrug it off with a “Nah, he just wasn’t that into me (insert sardonic laugh), who needs ‘im. Next!” What’s the point in getting a little pissy with people who are just trying to make you feel better?
Selena 33
@Ava#31
I don’t think wanting a serious relationship or marriage is unsophisticated or “dumb”. They require alot more giving of one’s self than *flings*.
Some people though consider a relationship that only lasted 6 mos. to a year to be “a long term relationship”. Who goes about deciding they want a relationship that will only last a specific length of time and no less? And since you can never predict how long a relationship will indeed last…just makes the term ltr sound dumb to me. Comes across as one avoiding saying what they really want (a close, serious relationship?, a marriage?) for fear of sounding “uncool”.
Casey 34
OMG!!! This thread just keeps getting more and more hilarious. I’m kind a bored and have cabin fever since there’s two feet of snow outside and I can’t get out of my subdivision. So thanks for the entertainment.
As for the well-meaning friends and shrugging off their comments, I did and do. But, I don’t think it is wrong of me to look to them for some support and to help me learn from my mistakes, which I would think are good things…particularly since as I (and we all) get older, this type of situation will continue to be an issue. I prefer the truth, served with a little kindness and compassion, if possible, which is what I expect from my friends (and thank god…not something I expect from people who post comments on blog entries). I didn’t want platitudes and foolish, romantic notions straight out of a movie or book.
I also wanted to thank Selena for her comments in post #33. There were some good little nuggets of information like: “Don’t call me, I’ call you,” “just an attempt to be polite,” and “Or, maybe the person genuinely wouldn’t mind be contacted once in awhile just to say Hi and How’s it going? Hard to know which.” Valuable and helpful information, which is what I was looking for…but you probably should have just left it at that.
Because I have to say, throwing in the HJNITY and he might just want to come back for sex comments…not helpful nor kind or considerate for that matter and seems like they were thrown in as a dig (sort of a defensive move by you). Could be just me though.
As I mentioned, he was the one doing all the bulk of the contact, making dates, etc. (as described in Evan’s how do you know if a guy is interested list), when he suddenly broke it off. That seems more like a guy who thought he was ready and turns out he wasn’t…rather than a HJNTIY or he was just hoping to get laid later situation, now doesn’t it? Wouldn’t it have made more sense and been more helpful, if you said something along those lines? Again, it could just be me though.
Fortunately, I’m smart enough to see that on my own and not take the comments of Selena and a few other people to heart…or those comments could have been very hurtful to me.
Seems to me like there are a few people on here who would do well to follow the advice…think more, post less.
P.S. I was actually hoping guys on here would comment, because they will be able to provide information on this subject (backing off versus being supportive) from the male perspective, which I think would be useful. I know when HJNTIY or just hoping to keep having sex without commitment when I see it. So…I’ll say it again just in case it wasn’t clear in my last post…I struggle with appearing like I don’t care by being too unemotional and too independent, and I want to know how it looks to back off (without looking like I don’t care), but be supportive. This is something I have no idea what it looks like or how to accomplish.
Selena 35
Okay Casey, a quote from writer Erica Jong seems apropo here:
“Advice is what we ask for when we know the answer, but wish we didn’t.”
lorihaah4 36
Casey and all – i understand where you are coming from, and yes, i sense your annoyance, tho u certainly seem intelligent enough to know ur sending out a pissed off vibe…AND CASEY IF YOUR NOT READY FOR TRUTH YET stop reading right here ok. So some guy just did something that felt really hurtful, its making u feel hurt and cynical (ive been there a few times myself, havent you all?) and it sucks. You say your friends sugar coat, and you want truth, but then you get upset. If we were friends, id tell you staright up – Casey, you need an attitude adjustment. Casey, yes you are right, sugar coating is useless, as he most likely will never be back, and yes, you contacted him too much (in my opinion ANYTHING even a cc email after initial contact was too much), and instead of judging him or misplacing anger ( i dont think selena was being passive aggressive, she was just being real), something that REALLY helped me when i stood where you stood: instead of seeking to BE UNDERSTOOD, First seek to understand. If you can get in his head a little bit, my guess is, eventually, you’ll be surprised at the compassion you have for him and other men you meet. And people are attracted to that quality alone like a magnet. Trust me, if this post if any indication of your dates, you know its true. Lose the pissy attitude, lighten up, laugh and put that passionate, fiery, intelligent and from what i can decipher thru your annoyance, fun, witty and vibrant personality to better use. As far as what you wanted for advice from men, try looking up some of Evans recommended writers – i have never their books but some of the free email advice some of them send out blast email seem pretty on target and i forward lots of great stuff to several of my dating friends. However, my guess is once your past this guy, youll do just fine on your own. You seem pretty capable to me. and ditto on selenas final quote. Rings true to us all i suppose at some points in our life, and yes, right now to u casey.
Janet 37
Ava & Jennifer: Someone sent me to this blog awhile ago to read a post about something she wanted to discuss about online dating and so I read a few posts and posted a bit myself. I’m already all partnered up and not dating (since it would disturb my SO and no reason for that, since I’m pretty darn happy with him). So I don’t know what EMK’s dating books or program say, or who they are so very clearly pitched to. Perhaps that’s the problem here, that I’m not in (or with) the program. I just remember posts from the “300+ women era,” when you had all kinds of singles (including men) writing in about who pays and when to have sex, and then there was a switcheroo to marriage/LTR/serious relationship stuff, except that nobody here seems to have one or be in one except for EMK himself, and he’s still a newlywed. All of the “single and dating” stuff seems to have fallen away in favor of the “looking for the one” stuff.
And yes, it is my belief that women waste way too much energy in this fantasy of “the one.” But only people who have actually lived awhile and been through a lot of relationship stuff can tell you–there is no such thing as “the one,” as women seem to think of the glorified “him.” (I’ve never heard any guy talking about any woman like this, by the way, which is why I am talking about this phenomenon in relation to women.) And no real guy is going to be able to be or provide what women who engage in this fantasy seem to be looking for: a bottomless, unconditional source of love and happiness, mind-blowing sex, professional and financial support, and fatherly wisdom for the perfect children that will doubtless come along.
The reality is that his interests in the relationship will be highly conditional and those conditions will be geared toward his needs and happiness, which may (often) be at odds with yours; he will never know your body better than you do and if you want to have great sex the resposibility will be on you to take that; if you do not have yourself together financially you are asking for big trouble in any sort of legal bond with a man who does; the work of raising the children will fall primarily on your shoulders.
So no. I don’t support any of that kind of typically female delusional talk about “the one” and the prospect of whatever-you-want-to-call-this-pining for-a-relationship-that-you-do-not-have-and-have-never-had-and-don’t-know-anyone-who-does-have-it.
As others have said on here, it’s not just getting to the LTR (for many of us, this part is not the challenge). It’s about what comes after. And what comes after is directly related to what comes before–what you have going on in YOUR life right now. No relationship can compensate for whatever you are lacking in other areas of your life. And if you have your act together you’re just a happy person and whatever comes to you (marriage, kids, no marriage, no kids, wealth, poverty, etc.) is fine.
As someone who knows something about marriage from personal experience, and who is (gasp!) a feminist, I am concerned about women buying into the mentality that marriage/LTR is the be-all and end-all. It is not, I assure you. It is just another way of being in this complicated world, and one that is lied about more often than not.
(Also, Jennifer, “not practicing a religion” is not the same thing as being an atheist. Just for the record.)
Janet 38
Meant to add–feel free to rant away at me. I’m going skiing for the holidays with “the One” and won’t be reading.
Happy holidays, all! I hope you find what you’re looking for!!!
Ava 39
Why is it that the women on this blog who most adamantly tell us we shouldn’t care about being in a relationship, freely admit that they are happily partnered?
Jennifer 40
Janet#37
Regarding ranting- nothing I’ve said falls remotely into that category. You seem to be the one with a problem with Evan’s posts and the point of view you feel is being discussed here- not me.
A lot of the views you discussed in your post on relationships I agree with (for example, I don’t believe in ‘the one’ i believe there are many possible ones, etc.). I just don’t think that marriage is a dirty word, nor do I think everyone needs to qualify everything to death when they discuss wanting marriage.
Despite your unwarrented snarkiness, enjoy your trip!
Joe 41
39: Maybe cause they’re sick of hearing women moan and groan about not being married. Obviously they figured it out. So just do it already and shut up about it.
Dope 42
“I know this from first-hand experience. Women always want to know what men are thinking, yet when we let you into our thought process, you immediately find fault basically because we think things that you wouldn’t want to hear. That’s why we usually don’t say them.”
Above is so true it made me punch the air with my fist. OH MY GOD.
HRGoddess 43
I am currently dating a soon to be divorced man. We have been together for 6 mos. He has been surprisingly there for me. He appears well adjusted and happy. In contrast, the man I was dating before him had been divorced for 5 years and was sending very mixed messages because he didn’t know what he wanted and he was scared. I stuck it out for over a year and was miserable. I never really knew where I stood. Everyone depending on their individual experience handles it differently. The best advice I can offer based on my own experience is that you need to listen and watch. The truth will reveal itself. Take what he says to heart and then make a decision. You can decide to stay, you can decide to put the relationship on hold until he figures it out or you can leave. The bottom line is you need to decide what you are most comfortable with.
Jennifer 44
Ava #39 Great point.
Only a very foolish woman has the goal of getting married to any old body just to say she is married. I don’t know why some people want to assume that wanting to get married/have serious relationships means ‘at any cost’. It’s not difficult to find someone to marry…of course it’s about finding the right person.
Joe 45
44: Because women seem desparate. They are always wondering if something is going somewhere. If its special. If your the right person. They read all those books that tell you that things happen by magic thoughts and how you can find a soul mate or be a princess. It’s kind of obsessive and very weird.
When I ask a woman out I don’t care about the future because I don’t know the woman. I don’t want to get to know her either if I think she’s doing some kind of voodoo on me that she read in some dating manual.
Ava 46
Jennifer #44
Again, thanks, I agree.
#41: I don’t think we are “moaning and groaning” here, just trying to respond to the LW. I’m glad it’s all so “obvious” to you. Happy Holidays.
Ava 47
HRGoddess #43
Oh, right, back on-topic!
It’s good to hear that you’ve been having a positive experience. Doesn’t it also depend on whose idea it was to end the marriage? In my case, both men got dumped and didn’t want the divorce. I wonder what the situation is in your case?
Jennifer 48
Joe #45- There are definitely women like that. I’ve seen them and it’s not cute. But those aren’t the women I’m talking about.
HRGoddess 49
Ava #47
Oh yes, Ava, I absolutely think it makes a difference. The guy that I had a bad experience with – his wife cheated on him and then left him. He was a mess and did not want to trust anyone. The guy that I am dating now chose to leave the marriage. Big, big difference.
HRGoddess 50
Joe -45
Voodoo… that’s funny! Silly women.
Steven 51
Sunshine, what were you thinking? Oh yeah, you were thinking about your “needs” met…
The guy you slept with is married – yeah yeah, he’s “getting” divorced but he is MARRIED.
A friend of mine was dating a guy that told her he was divorced but one day let it slip that he was still married by saying he was so happy his divorce would be finalized next month. She dumped him on the spot! He said but in a month he wouldn’t be married so it didn’t matter. She said yeah, in a month, you being married won’t matter, but you being a liar will; and in a month, you’ll still be a liar.
Sunshine, it’s a safe bet you’re not the first woman he’s tapped outside his marriage (maybe that’s the reason for the divorce) and it’s a safe bet he won’t be changing any time soon.
Jennifer 52
Steven # 51
Sunshine and this guy have known each other for 4 years and dated for two months before having sex. He’s been seperated for two years. What in this story leads you to believe that it’s a ‘safe bet’ to assume that he not only cheated on his wife before but that adultery was the reason for his marriage ending?
Laura 53
sunshine-
I am sure you will not like what I Hve to say because I would not have when I was in your position. I would have interpretted Even’s comments as “just hang in there” and that is what I did FOR 4 YEARS!! I had been divorced for a few years and met a wonderful man who had SAID he was divorced…..he lived in a huge home so I assumed he was. On date number 3…he confessed…he was “close” to being divorced from his wife of 27 years and was thrilled he met me. I soon feel in love and stupidly got on a rollercoaster for 4 years with this man. He often was quite honest about his ambivilence….BFD!! if i even tried to pull away he would magically become less ambivilent and so it went. We vacationed alone all over the word and with our kids. Oh…by the way…..his divorce took 4.5 years!! After 4 years of me being VERY MATURE and letting him go through his process…ugh….he broke up with me because…and I am paraphrasing…”I know you are ready for more and I just am not ready to give you what you want. Besides…I know you are wonderful but i really feel that after 27 years of marriage…I should date around and get a POINT OF REFERENCE!!” Soooooooo….in a nut shell…..I helped him transition into singlehood. Yea for me!! He got his sexy back….and learned how to dress way cooler. All my friends say i should be thankful for the lavish vacations and gifts I recieved. I want my TIME BACK!!!! And my heart!! It has been a year since we broke up and I know I am not over him. I am defensive and angry and scared oh AND….a moment after breaking up with me he started dating another woman exclusively!! Not dating around at all……
I saw him recently and asked if she was “the one”and he was vague. He said, “I have only been dating her for 14 months! How do I know if she is the one? Besides….i may want to date other women.” OY!!
BACK AWAY!! OR…set a date in your mind of how long you will wait….I did that too but he always seemed to sense that and found a way to seem more invested in me.
UGHHHHHHHHHH
Diana 54
For all that you have been through, Laura, be grateful that you are no longer the woman in his life that he’s using. You both played your part in this, as I am sure you are painfully aware, but when I read stories such as yours, it just continues to support my belief to never be with a married man, no matter how close to divorce they may say they are, or with a man too fresh out of divorce. Your comment that you helped him to transition to single-hood should be an eye opener to women everywhere because of the risks and whether they want to make the choice to accept those risks.
Ava 55
Laura #53
Not good for a man to tell you he’s divorced and then reveal that he really isn’t. And the mixed messages? All red flags. As you now know, vacations and lavish gifts are not worth the ultimate heartache.
Laura 56
Diana-
You are absolutely right about my being just as culpable in that relationship. I of course, am close friends with not 1 but 2 friends who met and married men who were fresh out of marriages….not even divorced. Of course they were the exception not the rule but we all met around the same time and they are both married and I am…..well…..smarter I hope!!
Happy New Year to you!
Laine 57
Paul at #5 has the answer
Christie Hartman 58
I wrote the book on dating divorced men. This situation is almost textbook. Man gets out of marriage, seeks another relationship, then backs away after realizing he wasn't as ready as he thought he was. Most men getting divorced are ready for female companionship and sex to fill the void, but they often aren't ready to give as much in return. They rarely realize this before getting emotionally involved with someone. This woman needs to back off and give him some space, and consider whether she's getting what she needs from him.
Kat 59
I am in this SAME situation. I met a wonderful guy on a dating website and we hit it off immediately.
Blame it on the fact he said he was SINGLE or the fact that he is from another country and thus speaks English as a second language, but I just figured out that he was not fully divorced yet. I asked if we could be Facebook friends after dating for five months. He said, “I don’t know why you want to do that, but okay, I have nothing to hide.”
Then he gave me a “guided tour” of his pictures. He was at some event barely a year ago that he said he’d attended with his ex-wife. When I saw the dates on the photos, I said, “Wow, that was just last summer. How soon after that were you divorced?” He said, “Very soon.”
I pressed him to tell me–very simply–if he was SEPARATED or DIVORCED. He would NOT give me a straight answer. He even said, “You know all about it.” I told him I didn’t and that’s why I was asking.
I am seeking a long-term relationship that will lead to marriage or co-habitation. I am tired of second-guessing myself when I know my gut instincts are right. I am obviously a REBOUND girl.
Rather than submit to the torture of wondering, I asked him where he was and he pretty much said, “I only want to date you, but I don’t want anything too serious.” After five months, I don’t want to waste anymore time. I’m 41 and NOT desperate, but not willing to waste time with someone who will never return my affections the way I need them to be returned. I was not in a serious relationship for two years previously because I was still processing out of a divorce and knew I was not ready for a serious relationship. Now I am.
I am going to break up with him tonight. It’s killing me because he is a wonderful guy in many ways, but in many other ways, he just isn’t what I need and I don’t think he ever will be.
I’ve learned a lot of from this relationship. I have learned that not being true to yourself will always lead to heartbreak–but you’ll actually be the one breaking your OWN heart, not getting it broken by someone ELSE.
I’m going to give myself a few weeks off from dating, but I see no need not to plug on after a break. I have a lot to offer to the right guy (or guys–I do believe I’m compatible with a great variety of men and that there is no “ONE” but several really amazing guys out there).
I think the key here is to trust yourself. You know your own needs better than anyone else. I could continue meeting his needs (regular sex, companionship, fun), but I’d be voiding my own needs in the process while accepting only part of what I need. I might have been okay with that when I was 21, but I’m a grown woman now who definitely needs more.
Brenda 60
Christie Hartman hit the nail on the head. (I’ve got to get her book) – I dated a man who was divorced 6 months, wanted exclusivity with me, and within 2 weeks of my agreeing to be exclusive, he poofed, sent me an email saying he wasn’t ready to be dating, was going to “work on” himself, go to his “groups” and voila, one day later, back on the dating website where we met.
My advice – wait until the man has been divorced at least two years, if not longer!
Denise 61
#60 Brenda
Totally agree! No one really who is recently separated is in the right state of mind to start a REAL new relationship, they haven’t processed the old relationship yet, and that takes time. I think that we BELIEVE we are ready (and I am included in that!)…
I dated a man who was divorced twice and his therapist told him it’s an average of 3 years for a man to ‘recover’ from a divorce. Some never do…
SS 62
I should have found this thread about eight years ago.
Because I briefly lived in an area where people married young — and divorced young — I was totally unprepared when I dated a recently divorced man. He was 33, I was 25 and because of my relative youth and naivete, I believed everything he said about being over his ex-wife.
They had “only” been married four years, there were no kids, he talked about how much healthier he was emotionally… I fell for him and although we didn’t date long, he began to waver when I said I was looking for a long-term relationship.
Suddenly, he was forced to recognize that he wasn’t ready for another long-term relationship like he thought he was. He said I had done nothing wrong and that my behavior and expectations were perfectly normal for a girlfriend, but he wasn’t ready to be a boyfriend.
He still wanted to maintain a friendship though, and I went along with it for about a month until I realized that it was all to be on HIS terms. He’d see me when he was lonely/bored/needing company, but wouldn’t do the same for me. He’d call when HE felt like it, not when he promised to. That was boyfriend/girlfriend stuff (calling at the time he said he’d call), and I’d been demoted to “friend” who had to understand that he was busy and would call whenever he decided to.
No, he didn’t state it that bluntly, but I remember this was a man who was never late for dates, who would apologize if he called 15 minutes after the time he said he would call me, who would call me in the car driving to work or meet me for breakfast when we were dating… suddenly it was, “Oh, you’re my friend, and my other friends understand that I get busy.”
I did myself a big favor and cut off all communication. Best thing I ever did.
But I then started to wonder if I had some kind of Recently Divorced/Separated Man magnet on my forehead because they kept coming. And I wasn’t even in the traditional age range in which I’d expect to meet a lot of men coming out of marriages.
I really grew to despise these men because they were all the same. I fell for the game one more time — partially because I listened to women who kept saying that I was being too hasty and that I should give these men a chance, and each time, my suspicions proved correct.
After that, no man who had been divorced for less than a year got a second date from me. Definitely no separated men. And if they asked me why, I told them the truth… “You have no business trying to date anyone right now. You are recently divorced, you have no idea what you want and the last thing you need to do is try to get in another relationship.”
Yes, it might have been mean and reflective of my own past hurts, but at that time, I didn’t care. I felt like no one ever called these men out on their mess and even if it didn’t change them one bit with another woman, at least they knew exactly how I read them. A few came back and told me years later that I was absolutely right.
AB 63
I met one online too, said he was single. In our first phone chat i asked how long hed been divorced and the answer was 6 years.
Two months later I am walking in my closest friends garden with them and him , and friend says , “How long have you been divorced?” he says ” Separated for 6 years now , not actually divorced” . I tripped over a hay bale !
I lost my sexy REAL quick . See he was conflicted , still caught up in the domestic fairytale he had in his marriage , its demise , and the reasons he had never addressed , but really WANTED me to fix all that for him. After pinning him down about the lack of divorce he assured me he would work on it next time he was in his home country but it was tricky due to the financial declarations needed , huh ??
Turned out he also owed his Government hundreds of thousands of dollars…DELETE !
I did however learn to ask the question up front and eye to eye , Are you divorced? How long since ? hows youir relationship with the ex? etc..
I wont date a married man until the divorce , and that means a year of separation by law here . It also means any one still sharing homes with the ex is a definite NO WAY for me.
Chloe 64
Hello All,
It’s been intersting reading about your dilemmas with seperated men. I too am going through a similar situation. I was dating a seperated man for the last year. It started out as friends, soon turned to what we jokingly called friends with benefits. We were both going through a hard time, and my loneliness allowed me to get involved with him, even though I saw all the red flags, and found out so many after we started sleeping together, like his horrible financial situation, wife problems etc. And the benefits were weren’t that great for me.
So, I was desperate for companionship, I realize this and so was he. I tried to fix him, waste of my time, I know, and he certainly didn’t like to hear the truth from me about his irresponsibilites etc (he’s not young, in his late 50′s). But, we hung in there and as a woman, my heart got more attached even though I know he isn’t life partner material, but unfortunatley the heart still gets attached, of course there were many good things and good times too.
Recently, I told him I don’t want to be a FWB, and I want more. I would have even settled for an I love you, but he thinks that would complicate things, ha! So, I realized after 9 months of being intimately involved that I was getting too involved and would be in trouble if I continued. Now, I’m dealing with the grieving of that decision. I don;t impagine any one of you would disagree with my decision, but it’s still hard to process.
However, I also wanted to share a success story that happened to one of my friends (not a friend of a friend), a real life tale and I hope Casey reads this too. By the way, Casey, I do feel for you, it’s hard to beleive in what seems like a miracle (guy will come back) and I doubt it too, perhaps even harder when you’ve been intimate (although you would think it shouldn’t be so)
Anyways, my friend, met a man, a very good catch I might add, who was interested in her and was going through a divorce. She told him that she will not date him until he is fully divorced. They proceeded to be friends and he did not see other women. He told her she was worth the wait (music to our ears). They were friends for 9 months, hung out a lot, lauged alot (not even a kiss was exchanged in that time). After nine months when he divorce was complete, they started dating and got married two years later!!
She said to me “When he told me I was worth it, it told me a lot about his character”. I love the story and I love my friend who must have had such amazing confidence to be able to stick to her guns. She had been hurt before too, but how many times do we really change?
Vina Guardado 65
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