Comments on: I Don’t Want Anything Serious. Or Do I?

By: SS

SS — Fri, 31 Aug 2012 00:16:14 +0000

Karmic @58: Not sure if you were thinking of me when you wrote “aversion to marriage”

I didn’t write “aversion to marriage,” but rather, “aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset.” Personally, I don’t really care if individuals are not interested in marriage for themselves… that’s fine. No one has to be married if they don’t want to and I don’t judge that one way or the other. It’s a choice. Based on your past experiences and your current desires, if your way works best for you, I can certainly respect that and it’s not at all my intention to change your mind about your own life.

I think the issue I’ve had — in general — is when women who were previously married (and perhaps a bit older than me) would dissuade me from marriage or from approaching dating with the intention of marriage because of their own not-so-great experiences with it. The most discouragement I received in my dating life came typically from women who were 10+ years older than me who would say that marriage was overrated and that my single life was worth envying and I should just stay that way.

The thing is, they were able to say that based on the fact that they had experienced marriage, and decided it was not for them. I say I should have the chance to make my own decisions on it and perhaps I’d have a different experience. Marriages are really about the two people in them, and since every marriage is comprised of different people, they’ll all unfold differently.

(Also, I did always see myself having children, so it was just totally counterproductive to be discouraged from pursuing marriage! The fact that I wanted children never seemed to be factored into the “just go with the flow” advice.)

Fusee @59: I agree with you that I probably could have been married earlier if that was the ONLY thing I wanted. There were certainly men who were interested in me and I could have pretended to be interested in them (or just focus on being “financially secure”), but I didn’t want to marry just for the sake of saying I was married! To me, that would have been the cold, businesslike approach that would rightfully raise a few eyebrows.

The dating period with my husband, however, was incredibly enjoyable and satisfying BECAUSE we were on the same page. With the security that we were exclusive to each other and committed to seeing if our relationship would potentially grow into marriage, we were able to be more intimate (physically and emotionally), vulnerable, sacrificial (in a good way), playful, happy, relaxed, etc… it was just such a refreshing feeling, I must say! People said they’d never seen me happier… same with my good friend!

By: Fusee

Fusee — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:11:00 +0000

@Karmic Equation #58:
“Plus I think I want to change partners after X years, so unless I want to be like the Gabor sisters, with multiple marriages and divorces behind me, staying unmarried is best for me and my peace of mind.”
“With this mindset, marriage feels like a trap, so it’s better for me not to be in one. I would probably work on it less than a relationship which I “choose” to stay in instead of being “obliged” to stay in, which marriage connotes to me.”

That’s why we agree on the question of how to build the relationship, and not on the focus on marriage. Unlike you I seek to commit to a life-long journey that will challenge me to push through my limits of love. Loving someone even when I disagree with him, loving someone even when I’m not turned on by him, loving someone even when old, disabled or sick. I’m aware of the challenge given all what I went through in my seven-year LTR. I’m now preparing myself rigorously for that challenge . And I’m rigorously assessing my boyfriend for that challenge as well.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:56:35 +0000

@SS #57: “Fusee, I feel like you are my twin.”

Over the last months of reading your comments, I often felt the same way and I’d love to have a twin sister : ) It’s a great encouragement to read your story. I wish you and your husband a lot of happiness in your marriage!

“It’s interesting to me that there seems to be such an aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset. I think there’s way too much emphasis on “feelings” and so-called “organic” development of relationships…”

I agree! Each time I explain my approach I get a comment in return about how much pressure I put on the relationship, how desperate it sounds, how unromantic it is, etc. To each their own, really. It’s a matter of priority. Are you prioritizing instant gratification? Romance? Looking cool? Long-term happiness? Some of my female friends would not follow my approach in a million years, and that’s fine. I’m not trying to convert anyone. But I’d like to clarify that I’m not desperate for marriage. As of today I could have married four men (two were wonderful but I did not feel it, two did not qualify, one of them is still trying : ), and I’m currently investigating the fifth. He is rather glad I’m purposeful, because he’s always wanted to have a long-term partner but had no clue how to move past chemistry and how to build a serious relationship.

If I had wanted a marriage, I would be married by now. I do not NEED a marriage and I have pretty much no desire for children. I am extremely happy single, and that’s why I’m fine with the idea of letting a good man pass. Indeed, what I do NOT want for my thirties is being stuck in a dead-end “organic” relationship. And I’m simply taking care of my happiness by avoiding ending up in a situtation that will make me unhappy. I’d rather let a few good men pass than wasting my precious thirties in dead-end relationships. Hence the shorter deadlines I allow for courtship. If it’s not going to be investigated within the first 18 months, it’s unlikely to be explored at the three-year mark, especially if the man is not purposeful. And few are. (Note: Evan and Karl R were extremely purposeful, but they are the exceptions to the rule, and that’s why their girlfriends did not have to say the “M” word).

And no, the goal of marriage is not making me overlook the reality of courting my wonderful man or forget to get to know him and love him! This is the WHOLE point. Making sure I’d want to love him for life despite his flaws, and making sure he’d want to love me for life despite my flaws. And making sure he can make it even when life gets rough. It takes time to figure this out, but it does not take years. At 13 months, we’re *almost* there, just working on a few more doubts and growth points before saying yay or nay.

Now, if I happen to remain a happy single well into my forties, my strategy might change. My forties will be less precious as I will be less flexible with location and other life questions, and well, I will be less attractive : ) Now is the time for me to be completely free OR to build a solid and happy marriage where my compromises and sacrifices will be part of a life-long journey. At this point I have way too much to offer to the right man, from my looks to my flexibility, from my ability to have children to the availability of my financial assets, etc. In my forties I will be settled somewhere for good, and not as open to move for him. I will have invested all my assets for an early retirement and will not be able to participate in a common financial goal. At that point I might probably be fine in a less defined LTR. NOT NOW!

By: Karmic Equation

Karmic Equation — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:15:53 +0000

Hi SS,

Not sure if you were thinking of me when you wrote “aversion to marriage” – for me, not aversion, per se, but rather not giving marriage extra value than an LTR, since I don’t want children nor for economic benefits (not saying *you* need them for this, btw). Plus I think I want to change partners after X years, so unless I want to be like the Gabor sisters, with multiple marriages and divorces behind me, staying unmarried is best for me and my peace of mind.

That said, I’m pretty sure that had I not already been married once, I would want to be married too. So I’m gaining new appreciation for what you and Fusee are doing in a business-like way. It sounds like that must be the way it’s done nowadays if you really desire marriage as your goal.

However, since I have the benefit of having been married and am financially- and emotionally-free from “needing” a man, I can choose to be with men that appease my need for romance. I’m not flitting from man to man, and I do stay with my men beyond the chemical highs (which only last about 2 yrs) — so I’m not in it for just the romance, but the entire experience of being in a fulfilling relationship. I guess I just don’t believe in (nor want to have) a relationship that lasts “forever.” And when the experience is no longer as positive as I want it to be or if I no longer feel like working on the relationship, I need to be able to feel that I can leave it whenever I want to (whether or not I actually do it).

With this mindset, marriage feels like a trap, so it’s better for me not to be in one. I would probably work on it less than a relationship which I “choose” to stay in instead of being “obliged” to stay in, which marriage connotes to me.

By: SS

SS — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:16:56 +0000

Fusee, I feel like you are my twin.

I was just talking to another female friend of mine (mid-30s, successful, smart, etc.) and learned that she also took the very deliberate, goal-oriented, almost businesslike approach to finding a partner after her relationships that came from just “going with the flow” failed. She’s now been married seven years, has a baby and another on the way. She said she’s never been happier and is madly in love with her husband.
And as I mentioned before, after spending my 20s just letting things happen (and nothing happened… went a whole decade without having an LTR of any sort), I also decided to approach dating in a more business-like fashion, and soon met the man I married (I was two days from turning 33 when we married).
As you said, I think this is almost the approach women who want marriage have to take now because we live in a society in which marriage is not the automatic goal of a dating relationship. As silly as it sounds, I had to learn this the hard way, as I always thought that if boy met girl and boy liked girl, they would become boyfriend and girlfriend, and then after a year or two get engaged and then get married. I was not prepared for the “I want to date, but not settle down yet even though I’m in my 30s” mindset, or the “divorced man just out of a marriage and just looking to date around” mentality, among others. I’m not saying these types of guys are wrong in wanting to do this, but such situations make it harder for a woman who is looking to marry and perhaps have children.
You can easily get derailed by those who don’t have the same goal and who are more than willing to enjoy the benefits of a relationship or friendship with a woman without having any plans to marry her.
It’s interesting to me that there seems to be such an aversion to approaching marriage with a focused mindset. I think there’s way too much emphasis on “feelings” and so-called “organic” development of relationships, but I haven’t really seen those types of situations necessarily resulting in better end results for women (and men) than having a goal about what you want from a dating/courtship experience and sticking to that.
But I can only speak for myself and my friend — although we both haven’t been married that long — and say that we were MUCH happier with how our relational lives turned out once we took that so-called outcome-based approach to relationships and went after exactly what we wanted in a partner (and quickly dismissed those who didn’t fit).

By: Karmic Equation

Karmic Equation — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:37:42 +0000

@David T

My marriage ended because the romance left it and neither my spouse nor I made any efforts to nurture it when it was waning, probably simply due to lack of knowledge. My marriage lasted 9 years (entire relationship was 11 years). So we were well beyond the chemical highs when we divorced. We never cheated on each other either.

We had a good companionship and friendship. But I realized that was not enough. We were roommates who shared a bank account at the end. It didn’t feel like how a wife should feel about her husband. People remain in marriages on less than this. But I wanted more.

I’m still on very good terms with my ex-husband, so the friendship endures to this day.

Romance is important because I learned that is something I’m not happy without. After doing a lot of reading, I realized I wasn’t doing my part to encourage his romance. So now I’m much better prepared to nurture romance in my relationships going forward, since I now have an understanding of what I need to do keep it flowing.

Since I don’t need a man to provide for me nor do I want children, marriage is not a requirement. All I ever wanted from a relationship is a man that I can spend time enjoying life with. I no longer need a label for my relationships, whereas when I was 25, I was definitely in love with the idea of “getting married.” Except for the wedding day, being married and being in an LTR feels no different to me.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:10:18 +0000

@David T #53: I also tend to agree very much with your comments.

“Don’t recall if Fusee has been married yet”

No, at 33 I’ve never been married. Hoping to have ONE marriage. I was in a seven-year relationship in my teens to mid-twenties, in two other LTRs-ish, and since my late twenties/early thrities I’ve been following a progressively more mindful and purposeful dating strategy. In the seven-year relationship, I was the one “stringing the man along” as I was trying to figure myself out, and it sadly took a LONG time. I regret that my lack of mindfulness broke his heart when I ended the relationship but he thankfully rather quickly met another woman who was more compatible to his personality. I really know both sides of the coin…

I think it’s easier to cultivate – and later rekindle – romance in a solid friendship-based and value-based marriage where both partners start with a strong physical attraction of each other and a commitment to lighting the fires once in a while. But I do not have much experience in this area. Any long time married folks here who can talk about romance over the years?

By: David T

David T — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 04:27:18 +0000

@Fusee 51 Well put indeed. I really like your communication style and relationship philosophy that you describe in many of your posts. @Karmic52 Unfortunately, that isn’t the reality of how most people start their relationships. Maybe not even how some build it. I got married without doing it that way, as I imagine most people have. True, and your marriage relationship ultimately failed, and mine did too. Don't recall if Fusee has been married yet. Might be a coincidence, maybe not. I don’t want my relationships to feel like a business transaction. Romance is more important to me than marriage, having been there/done that. If you want an LTR (meaning lasting more than six months or maybe a year or so), part of that is looking at things like similar life goals and compatible communication styles and that is very much an exercise of the brain, and not the heart. Romance can still be there too, but on its own will only carry you so far. The chemical high or romance will evaporate completely in time if the other elements are not in place. If you are content with turning over partners every once in a while, that is fine, but make that decision consciously, and let your partners know that is where you are coming from.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:21:51 +0000

@Karmic Equation #52:

Yes, for me marriage is the desired outcome of the dating and courtship phases. If at any point in these phases I realize that the guy is not interested in building a life-long marriage, or that we are not compatible, or that he does not have the quality of character required, I’ll happily opt out. But marriage is not really an “outcome”, this is the real start of the relationship: a life-long adventure where two people are going to practice the art of being together despite all kinds of unexpected challenges.

The Option A that you seem interested in worked great until the 60s, when marriage was the social norm and the only way for respectable men and women to have sex and to be considered adults. At that time a woman could “talk” to several men until one would propose. Proposing was the equivalent of today’s “dating exclusively”, while marriage was the equivalent of today’s “moving in together”. There were a lot more marriages since it was the only way to sex and cohabitation. But a lot of these marriages were not that happy. Or faithful.

Option A (aka “back to the old ages”) might be appealing, but trying to follow rules from the past in the current dating culture is not going to be effective, and very simply because men do not need/want marriage any more. They can get all the sex they want (and other benefits) without having to be commit to the provider, and society does not look down on them if they do not have a wife. Quite the opposite!

These days, if a woman wants to be married, she is going to have to be very clear about her goals, especially if she wants to avoid being side-tracked to the “playing house category” or any other dead-end LTR where she will indeed be stuck in a commitment but without receiving the long-term security she desires. She is also going to have to be such an amazing woman that this man who does not need marriage anymore is going to be willing to go for it nevertheless.

So yes, because I prefer being single than in an ongoing/undefined LTR, I decided to date purposefully. My approach is therefore much more deliberate than what most women are doing these days (hoping for an offer of exclusivity, agreeing to a cohabitation, waiting for a proposal, etc). Not only to make sure I’m dating someone with the same long-term goals from the getgo, but to make sure I’m with someone of great character. Someone who can tackle these big scary questions heads-on instead of hesitating for years while I invest in him my most precious years.

I’m against withdrawing commitment during dating/courtship because it does not make sense to me to prepare a monogamous relationship by not being monogamous. Also I doubt that it will make decent men run to the jewelry store by fear of “losing a deal” (a “deal” consisting of a woman claiming love but “talking” to other men). I’m also in favor of exploring physical intimacy as part of the courtship as long as both (committed) partners agree that they are evaluating each other and their relationship for marriage. I refuse to sign a lease/move in before marriage or at least before the engagement + a wedding date since I’m not going to play house while he makes up his mind. And I limit the dating/courtship phase to around 12-18 months, depending of course of the circumstances. Flexibility is needed but the intention is necessary to allow progress towards opting for or against marriage. That’s how I avoid being side-tracked into the “dead-end LTR track” where the man is encouraged to postpone considering a real commitment. If at any time in the courtship he realizes that he does not want a marriage and/or that he does not desire to unite in marriage with me, he has plently of time to decide to opt out, but not too much time to do so. He’s got to start thinking about it as we are starting dating.

Is it common to do this? Definitely not, and so what? It is a middle way between the good old ages and the current irresponsible dating culture, and I found it working very well for me. I’ve avoided men who had not figured themsleves out, men of less than outstanding character, men who want to have their cake and eat it too, etc. And I’m now investing my precious energy and love in a wonderful man. I’m sure he is happy that I kept myself available for him instead of playing house with someone else who would be stringing me along. But my man deserves my commitment and devotion until we make the most important decision of our lives, regardless of what that decision is.

Seriously, to each their own! You are obviously more experienced than me since you were married. Also, if romance is what you are after, then “Option D: going with the flow” might actually work best for you.

By: Karmic Equation

Karmic Equation — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:51:33 +0000

@Fusee 51

Well said, Fusee. Unfortunately, that isn’t the reality of how most people start their relationships. Maybe not even how some build it. I got married without doing it that way, as I imagine most people have.

Your way is very outcome oriented, almost business-like.

I don’t want my relationships to feel like a business transaction. Romance is more important to me than marriage, having been there/done that.

You’ve stated that is your goal and I’m sure you will reach it come hell or high water, but at what cost, I wonder?