I Have to Choose: My Boyfriend or My Career

Evan Marc Katz

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Evan,

First, thanks for the advice you provide on this blog. I read it religiously, and it always gives me a lot to consider in my own relationship. My boyfriend and I have been together for five months, and are both in our late 20s. We’re a good match. I’m happier than I can ever remember being. We’ve met all of the usual checkpoints for a new relationship – we established exclusivity within the first month, have met each other’s parents (in fact, he’s meeting my family this weekend), and freely and sincerely express our love to one another. We talk about a future together. I believe this relationship could have a real future. My boyfriend is kind, loving, and devoted to me, and I see myself loving him more each day.

However, an issue has emerged. Over a year before my boyfriend and I began dating, I initiated a job search with the intent to relocate to my favorite city (Austin, TX), where I lived for a few years for graduate school. That search was unsuccessful, but the recruiter I was working with recently contacted me with an opportunity to move to Austin. Professionally, this is a great move for me, but personally, this is a disaster.

Last night, I told my boyfriend about the opportunity (since I have a final interview in Austin next week), and he told me that he loves me and he wants me to have a fulfilling career, but that if I move to Austin, it will be the end of our relationship. He refuses to take part in a long-distance relationship (I knew this about him from the time we first began dating), and he doesn’t want to move to Texas. He did say that he might be willing to relocate sometime in the future, but that any move would be “for the person he will spend the rest of his life with,” and that it’s still too early to know whether I’m that person. I understand his position, and I love him, but I also love myself and my career. I am willing to do long-distance, but he isn’t. Both of us could feasibly pursue our chosen careers in either location.

My question, Evan, is what would you do, and what should I do? I do have a great job in our current city, but Austin has always been in my plans. When in a relationship is it appropriate to choose a partner over a career move, and is that appropriate here? – Victoria

Dear Victoria,

Men want to choose. We don’t want to be sold.

Glad you enjoy the blog.

Glad the advice has helped you.

Glad you have an amazing boyfriend.

But you’ve already answered your own question, so I’m not quite sure I’m supposed to say.

“Austin has always been in my plans.”

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132 Comments »Filed Under Dating

132 Responses to “I Have to Choose: My Boyfriend or My Career”

1. David T 1

   It is all about choices. I think about what my possible futures will look like and then choose based on my priorities. I focus on what makes me happy in the path I choose, and work to let go of the things I am giving up or can’t have. For me that second part is the harder and slower part, but the first part makes that process less painful.

   Victoria’s choices are to be happy in Austin, and work to let go of *possibly* being married to this particular man, or be happy where she is and in her relationship and let go of living in Austin. If she stays _maybe_ she still makes it to Austin, but she would have to start thinking of that as a bonus rather than a necessity. Clouding her mind and judgement at this early stage in her relationship is her chemical attachment, but it sounds like she already knows Austin is more important to her than that.

   I don’t know where she lives now and what her job is vs. the one waiting for her. Unless it is pretty awful by her standards I would make a different choice than the one she is making, but my priorities are different than hers and each person needs to act on what works for them.

   Good job Evan, in distilling her dilemma to a *clear* set of the important choices before her. That clarity means less chance of her suffering from the paradox of choice (buyers remorse) later.

2. Karl R 2

   Victoria asked: (original post)
   “When in a relationship is it appropriate to choose a partner over a career move, and is that appropriate here?”

   About four years ago I dated an amazing woman. One of the most amazing women I’ve ever dated. My career was just starting to take off locally. She was unhappy where she was and would have to move hundreds of miles away in order to keep her career moving forwards.

   She pursued her career, and I pursued mine. I have no regrets. (We don’t keep in touch, but I’ve heard that she is happy where she’s at.)

   I agree with Evan, you can meet a wonderful man in Austin. And from the way you’ve written your letter, I think you’ll have an easier time letting go of your boyfriend than your plans to live in Austin.

   There is no wrong decision in this case. Each choice comes with a benefit, each comes with a cost. This time, it’s pretty clear what you will get and what it will cost. Go with your gut.

3. Goldie 3

   I wonder how the whole Austin thing managed to slip through the cracks during the initial phase of a relationship. Why did it never come up in a conversation that Victoria is currently looking for work in Austin (which, BTW, I’ve heard nothing but good things about)? My point is, this shouldn’t have come as a surprise a week before the final job interview. This should’ve been discussed earlier. Unfortunately, I really have no advice except maybe to flip a coin… Both options sound good.

4. Helen 4

   Victoria, although nothing is set in stone yet as you haven’t heard a final decision from the Austin firm (at least, not by the time we’re reading this), my choice based on what you have written is Austin.

   Texan boys aren’t bad. Actually, they’re really cool. I know Texas gets a bad rap in other parts of the US (and even the world), but I have liked every single person I’ve met from there, and have traveled there many times too. Austin is a great city.

5. Victoria 5

   Hi All,

   I am the culprit of the original question to Evan. Evan, your analysis is helpful (and the commenter’s analysis too). Most affecting to me was this part at the end of your advice: “But, to be very clear as you sort through your turmoil: it’s not your boyfriend who is choosing his current city over you; it’s you who is choosing Austin over him.”

   Here is a bit more information.

   The job offer in Austin is an offer for a job that is very similar to the one I have now, and for generally the same pay and benefits. In both cities, I have a good chance at promotion, but in Austin the promotions that are possible are more attractive to me.

   I am happy in my current city. I am even happier with this man in my life.

   As to why this didn’t come up in conversation between us earlier, I initiated the job search two years ago, and hadn’t been searching actively for Austin jobs for about a year before my boyfriend and I began dating (i.e., at this point it’s been 18 months since I actively looked for jobs in Austin), and this opportunity came up because an old contact looked me up when he heard of the opportunity. If left to my own devices, I would not have been looking for jobs now, and I wouldn’t have initiated a search in the next year or so without discussing it with my boyfriend.

   Truly, I am open to making a life in my current town, I just never had reason to consider doing so before – because the only factor in the equation was me. That’s not true anymore.

   Does that change any of the advice?

   Thank you to all of you for the thoughtful comments.

6. Ileana 6

   I’m sorry for Victoria’s predicament, but so is life. She should just follow her heart and do what’s best for her. Plus, she’s only been dating the guy for 5 months. It is impossible for him to have everything figured out so early.

   Evan, another great response! Cheers!

7. Helen 7

   Victoria, even after you added more information in #5, that doesn’t change my advice about choosing Austin. There is no guarantee that if you stayed, you would be with him in the long haul. In fact, something he said in your original post didn’t sit very comfortably – it didn’t seem as though he was even considering the possibility of making things work out with you. He just drew his line in the sand. He has every right to do that, but that also means that you shouldn’t expect as much for the future of this relationship as you might be. I don’t think “meeting families” is as meaningful as you might think; I met the families of many ex-boyfriends (and they met mine).

   You are in your 20s; you have potentially great career options in a city that you love. If Austin has better possibilities for promotion, that will be very important throughout the whole of your career. I still say go for Austin.

8. Birdlife 8

   A bit harsh Evan – would your advice have been the same if a man wrote to you with this dilemma?

9. Samara 9

   Evan – I am curious how you would advise other women in a similar situation but with less obvious priorities? For instance, if Victoria had been less attached to Austin, how could she have brought up the conversation with her boyfriend in a way that wasn’t giving him an ultimatum? How could she have “let him choose” whether or not to keep her in his life?

10. Fusee 10

    @ Victoria #5:

    Evan made your choices very clear (as he always does!), and now you have an interesting choice to make. Both will bring some immediate happiness (either staying in a satisfying relationship or moving to your dream city) and the potential for long-term satisfaction (potential happy marriage + a decent career, or potential valuable promotion in your dream city + a potential new decent boyfriend). Both will involve a sacrifice (renouncing to your dream city at least for now, or renouncing to a satisfying relationship at least for now). At the end of the day we can all tell you what you should do, but beside making you think about your situation from different angles, your decision must only depend upon your current priorities, your personality, and how you deal with life (do you see the glass half-full or half-empty and how do you deal with regrets?).

    I can somewhat relate to your situation. I met my boyfriend in my city, where he was employed temporarily. From the get go I knew he was going to go back to his city in another state where he was committed for at least another 3-4 years. I did not wait until later than date #3 to look that city up and decide whether I would agree to move there if the relationship was going to develop to something serious. Of course I then let these considerations go until the time came to decide whether or not we were going to do the long-distance thing. The difference with you and your boyfriend is that prior to meeting him I had already prioritized my love life over anythting else. I was looking at dating from a very serious perspective.

    In the first six weeks of dating, I had discovered his interest for marriage as well as a basic compatibility of values and goals. The next step was going to be growing our bound, assessing our deeper compatibility, and well… letting time do its magic. So when he left town and we both agreed that we were going use our long-distance time to grow our relationship with the goal of marriage in mind, it was “easier” for us to make the sacrifices of flying to meet up for week-end visits and for me to imagine the possiblity of giving up everything I love about my current situation in order to be with him in the long-term. As long as it was going to be for marriage, not for being a live-in girlfriend. There are some sacrifices that you make for a husband, not for a boyfriend.

    BUT! All of this is because I am a 33 year-old woman who have dated enough to know what’s out there (and what is not). I know how frustrating the dating game is in the long-run and how rare it is to have a chance to develop a true “10″ relationship with someone of great character + love and respect + compatibility of values and goals + yummy physical attraction. I was ready to give up A LOT for the right person and the right relationship before even meeting him. Ready to give up superficial stuff such as physical features, income level, common hobbies, location, etc. Ready to give up a good job, great city, and local friends. Because I wanted to build a solid and happy marriage, and if I met the right partner who wanted the same, I was decided that it was going to be my new adventure, and a priority over anything else.

    You and your boyfriend may be at a different life stage than me. You may not be ready to prioritize love over your career and other local benefits. For that you might need much more frustration and pain, unfortunately. We grow from mistakes and pain, not from happiness. No amount of convincing from commenters who have a different personality than yours, who are at different life stages, or have had different experiences is going to change anything. We all have to go through each step of our own path. I have a younger female friend who totally understand my choices but who would never be able to make such choices now. And yet I can already see her in the same situation as mine in a few years…

    Enough rambling! Good luck with your decision! No one is bad since there is so much to gain with each choice you are presented with. My advice: once you make your decision, do not look back. Only forward.

11. Evan Marc Katz 11

    @Birdlife: Harsh? I didn’t even offer my opinion. I just laid out her options. So yes, my advice would have been exactly the same if a man wrote the question. Why? Would your advice to him be any different?

12. amy 12

    Hi there!
    I don’t agree with the posters who say Austin. Perhaps if, as Evan suggest, you have a conversation with him, instead of setting down an ultimatum, it might turn out differently.
    It’s true, you are young. But do you want to settle down soon? If you do, then give this relationship a chance. This is not the last job offer. But if you don’t want to settle down, then by all means move on.
    I want to tell you that I met someone in NY while I was on a three-month trip from LA. I was set to go back to LA at the end of the month but had just met him and thought it was too good of a chance to pass up. So i decided to stay in nyc.
    The guy, though, wanted to be sure “I wasn’t doing it for him.” Guys hate that kind of pressure, it really is an ultimatum. Because if i was unhappy in nyc it would be his fault.
    I assured him that I wasn’t doing it for him, I really did want to be in nyc. That wasn’t exactly true — but I did want to be in nyc WITH HIM. I also vowed to make my life work in nyc, regardless of him and our relationship, because there’s nothing worse than a whole life resting on a relationship.
    So – if you want to settle down, and you can be happy in your current city, then you should stay.
    PS I’m married and in nyc now. (Maybe i’d be married to him or someone else and living in LA now if I’d moved back to LA, so who knows!)

13. Suheil 13

    My boyfriend made it clear to me once… he said, if you’re changing the conditions by which this relationship has grown, why would you expect me to change? Well, if I’m the one who wants to move to another city, why should he be ok with it? It kind of makes sense, and if he were to do the same… I surely wouldn’t want him to just “expect” me to move and be ok with it. If I decided to do so it would be fine, but I wouldn’t want him to just expect that.

14. Trenia 14

    I think Victoria might have regrets either way, but we have to make choices and that’s just life on life’s terms. Now would be a good time to get quiet and really listen to yourself. What do you want?

    I also agree with Helen #7, there was something about her boyfriend’s response that didn’t sit well with me, it just didn’t sound hopeful at all, but that’s just me. I wish her luck.

15. Karl S 15

    If they did do long-distance, she could also fly over to see him as well, no?

    I knew a girl who lived in Hawaii and her boyfriend moved to Japan to study. They managed to keep it going even though they could only visit each other every once in a while. Of course, she planned to eventually move over there with him so it’s different in that way.

16. DinaStrange 16

    Once again, what i hear are commoditized view of relationships. Neither of the people want to give in, everyone is only thinking of themselves and as a result we are back to machines instead of humans. Victoria looks at her relationship as what’s more convenient for her, her guy is not willing to even think about giving it a chance, long distance because it’s not convenient for him and in the end we are having 50% rate of divorce that is only going higher. Just awesome.

17. Desdenova 17

    Victoria –

    Evan is right. In your initial letter you said: “Austin has always been in my plans.” How has this not come up? Even if not job related, when asked, “Do you Miss Texas?” or “Ever think of going back?” how did you respond?

    It seemed pretty clear to me that the long-distance relationship that is on the table is not the type which means that at some point in the future either party would relocate. Rather, it sounds like it would be a preliminary measure for before your current BF moves to Austin.

    As for what you should do, that depends on how you feel about him. I think some above posters are not being fair in saying something about his response doesn’t sit right. If this didn’t come up before, you just dropped a bomb on him. You know your romantic options and how you feel about him (and vice-versa) better than we do. If you’ll miss him more than Austin, then you should stay. If you think you can get what he provides you without much difficulty in Austin, then it’s clear you’ll miss Austin more than him.

18. Victoria 18

    Hi All,

    Victoria here again. Thank you all again for your thoughts.

    DinaStrange, to your point, my boyfriend and I are very much in the “discussion” stage of this process. I only received the job offer today. Although you may see my initial description of the situation as commoditized and unyielding, the actual question I posed to Evan was, “When in a relationship is it appropriate to choose a partner over a career move, and is that appropriate here?” I’m really hoping that my boyfriend and I can find a mutually agreeable solution – like maybe we wait a few years and look to move later, or I try out settling here, but if I’m unhappy in a few years we’ll think about relocating together, or maybe after my boyfriend visits Austin a few times he may come to love it as I do. I sincerely love him, and I believe in compromise (when called for).

    Further, if my boyfriend and I cannot come to a middle ground, there’s nothing “convenient” about either of these options (those options being staying for love or leaving for long-held dream). One option involves packing up my life and taking a risk in a new city (alone), and the other involves sacrificing the “big picture” plan I’ve had for the better part of a decade (for the man I love). As other commenters have noted, neither decision should be made lightly.

    Trenia and Helen (#7), I agree with you. My boyfriend’s initial stance didn’t sit well with me either. When I brought this up initially, I thought he might be up for some creative problem solving, or maybe an adventure (He’s lived in several states, so I thought he might be open to a move), or at least an open conversation about what to do together. My boyfriend can be firm – bordering on stubborn – sometimes. With that said, I did ask him to move for my job, to a city he’s never considered, and I knew his position on long distance, so I knew I was asking a lot from him. One thing I’ve learned from Evan is that we need to take our partners as they are, without thinking we can change them. My partner is a man who takes a firm position. I may have to decide whether that characteristic is one I can live with or not, and I have to decide earlier than I would like.

19. Fusee 19

    Something that is starting to be tiresome to me is the over-use of the word “ultimatum”.

    From Wikipedia: “An ultimatum (Latin: the last one) is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance. An ultimatum is generally the final demand in a series of requests. As such, the time allotted is usually short, and the request is understood not to be open to further negotiation.”

    So, in an ultimatum, there is a “demand”, a “specified period of time”, a “threat”, and the idea of a “final demand after a series of requests”.

    While I do acknowledge that some demands are ultimatums (the stereotypical threat of a woman who after 3+ years of dating states to her man “marry me or I’m gone”), I do not agree with the idea that each time a woman clarifies a priority, a need, or a boundary, that could conflict with a man’s priority, need, or bounday, that it is called “ultimatum”.

    Personally I have specific needs on what kind of relationship I want to build, the conditions for kissing/sex to happen in a new relationship, how much time I’m willing to dedicate to growing the relationship until marriage, etc. These are legitimate needs and boundaries (with some flexibility of course) that for sure will not be compatible with everyone’s. And that’s okay. A relationship is a process of discovering if two people can create a team and it involves negotiations. If I explain my needs to someone new at an adequate time, in an adequate tone, with the adequate words, with the adequate intentions in order to precisely avoid having to make “demands”, “threats”, and a “final plea after a series of requests” later on, this is NOT an ultimatum. This is simply starting the process of assessing compatibility of needs and negotiating on flexible aspects of these needs, and allowing each other to opt out if we are not in agreement.

    From Victoria’s letter, I’m not under the impression that there was any ultimatum. She obviously would like to have the best of both worlds: her boyfriend and her dream city. Nothing wrong with trying to have it all. If after talking to him about it and coming up with two ideas, he does not feel like any of them, she is left with the two choices we are talking about. This is not an ultimatum to ask her boyfriend to come with her or keep growing their relationship over long-distance. This is simply stating her preferences (both moving to Austin), see if they can find a middle ground (temporary long-distance), and then making a decision based on her top priority (staying there with him or moving alone).

    If this is not an ultimatum, do not call it an ultimatum. Some women make ultimatums (usually because they hoped that things would fall into place or because they were not in touch with their legitimate needs early on), and other women simply honor their needs and boundaries by making reasonnable requests and walking out when no middle ground can be found.

20. KTR 20

    I’m with the other commentators – something about the initial response doesn’t seem right. I certainly don’t mean he wasn’t allowed to say it or want to devalue your interaction so far. But in terms of the future of your relationship even if the Austin thing doesn’t materialise it doesn’t look great.

    Of course yes, he is being sensible etc etc, but in my experience twenty something men who are REALLY serious about a girl tend to override the practical excuses and go for it (I presume he is not divorced and has no kids, so no “baggage” to deal with). And he’s not whipping out a ring or suggesting you move in together to tempt you to stay, it’s just “let things continue as they are or I’m out”.

    I’ve moved round a fair bit, and in my experience guys who are serious about me – as soon as moving is mentioned – will offer paying for plane tickets, want to push the course of the relationship forward so they have a commitment in place etc.

    I just tend to see IRL a lot of these things, the guy sticks with a girl, they’re boyfriend and girlfriend. She’s playing it cool. She’s the sensible choice for him. She acts like the sensible choice for 2-3 years. Then they break up and he meets someone new and they are married within two months. I’m NOT saying they would make the best husbands or have the best marriage – but just how things seem to go.

    I’ve read what Evan (and cool Karl) have to say on letting a guy have time to make a decision, and I DO think it makes sense – you can’t force people to do things. But then again I’d say Evan and Karl are MUCH more emotionally “on the ball” than other men who tend to make less sensible long term decisions.

    Personally, I’m probably not a great long term prospect and not geared to make myself that way at the moment, but I still get taken as a serious prospect by men because I look a certain way (whilst they are probably passing over better “girlfriends” who will make them happier). There never is any ambiguity – they want, and they will ignore my not so great finances and nomadic lifestyle and any “practical” difficulties in order to get.

    In my experience twenty something men are often pretty clear on whether or not they’re serious about a girl from the start. Five months is enough. I’d take the Austin job and start dating around. Late twenties is a good age to be doing so. Good luck.

21. David T 21

    Interesting that you couch your dilemma in these terms:

    @Victoria 18 “One option involves packing up my life and taking a risk in a new city (alone), and the other involves sacrificing the “big picture” plan I’ve had for the better part of a decade (for the man I love). ”

    In both cases you are focusing on what you will lose, rather than what you will gain. The cons are part of the process and cannot be ignored, but once you decide, think only of the the positives that are coming your way otherwise you will be dwelling on what you have lost regardless of your choice.

    Aside: His firmness is definitely something to explore. If he does not compromise in general, you are going to have more problems in your relationship. Still, he says he *is* willing to move for the person he is going to spend the rest of his life with. Five months is too soon to get engaged, but it is not too soon to start talking about cities you both could like. This will also give you insight into how firm he is. And who knows, maybe in another 7 months, Texas with you might not sound so bad to him.

22. Victoria 22

    Desdenova and others, there was no bomb drop. My boyfriend has known from very early on in our relationship of my love of Austin. I had mentioned in conversation that I love Austin and I’d love to move back someday (to which he never made substantive comment), and had even mentioned previous searches for jobs in Austin. This was just the first time I brought up a current opportunity to relocate.

    I will say that, absent this concrete job opportunity, I think five months into a relationship (between two previously unmarried 20-somethings) would have been pretty early to say, “Hey babe, in theory, would you move a thousand miles away with me if the opportunity came up?” I had intended to ask him that question eventually, but I felt the proper time hadn’t yet arisen. Unfortunately, that very conversation is happening now in a very real way.

23. sarah 23

    move to austin.

    if you stay and miss out on this opportunity, you’ll end up resenting him for it.

    if you go, and he ends up wanting to follow you after all, he will. but it will be on his terms, not you presenting an ultimatum. you don’t want him to follow you unless he’s committed to the idea of becoming happy and successful there, because then he will resent YOU for making him give up his previous life.

    if you go, and he stays, there are, as everyone is saying, lots of men that you could build successful relationships with. there may not be someone exactly like him, and you might not meet one that works right away, but eventually it will happen.

    there’s always going to be unknowns, what ifs, and the possibility of regret, regardless of whether you go or stay.

24. SS 24

    Victoria, I agree that your boyfriend’s initial stance was disconcerting. Pay attention to that. It might not mean anything — maybe he was just surprised or shocked and didn’t know what to think at the time.

    However, it reminds me of a man I dated a while ago who dreamed of being in the FBI. We had been dating about three months when he got accepted. Great for him and I was happy for him, but bothered that he started excitedly discussing his future in the FBI (which meant a likely move) without any type of conversation about where I — or if I — fit into this plan. I know we hadn’t been dating very long, but I wanted to hear something from him about attempting to date long distance or if we had any kind of future… not surprisingly, we ended soon after he got his test results back.

    In your case, it does seem like you want to try a long-distance relationship and that you’re considering multiple options, and your boyfriend should be considering them as well. Ultimately he might decide it’s not worth it if you do move to Austin, but I’d hope that neither of you are totally closed to any form of compromise…

25. CupOfTea 25

    If Victoria lived in Austin when she was in college, and loved it, it’s no guarantee that she will have the same amazing experience again (not saying Austin isn’t a great city, but sometimes we have amazing experiences in places that stay at the time they were had). It’s not wise to try to recreate something that’s in the past. For example, I lived in NYC for a short time when I was about 20 and absolutely loved it, but I wouldn’t necessarily move there now because I’m a different person with different needs. I think the going with your gut advice is good.

26. helene 26

    I think its important to point out that as a rule, men DO NOT relocate for women or women’s careers – even if you are married. This means 2 things: 1)there is nothing strange about her boyfriend or his response – it may be expressed a little more bluntly than some men would, but that level of honesty is not a bad thing under these circumstances, and 2)if she stays with him, she should not harbour any thoughts about persuading him to move to Austin later on – she needs to forget it. The only way this guy is moving to Austin (or anywhere else) is if HE gets a job offer he can’t refuse in Austin and suddenly decides its where HE wants to be!
    Personally I can’t fathom why anyone would choose a CITY over a PARTER (unless where they currently live is a hell-hole!) Finding a relationship you value is extremely difficult, wheras moving to a city is easy – you just move there! You can do it any time. Why not see how the relationship pans out and if – worst case scenario – things don’t work out then you can move to Austin later. But also bear in mind that even if you move to Austin, and find another great man in Austin, his job may at some point require him to move elsewhere and you’ll end up having to leave Austin anyway.Men are just as stubborn when they want to relocate as when they don’t, which is simply something you have to accept if you want to be in a relationship with a man. Men basically choose where you’re going to live; you get to choose the soft furnishings!

27. Bluewoman 27

    Victoria, here’s the other side of the coin.

    You don’t move to Austin. A few weeks/ months later he breaks up with you, because you are not the girl he wants to marry.

    Also, imagine your boyfriend was in your situation. Would he have chosen his career or you?

    Two points I would consider.

28. Tash 28

    Never give up the dreams in your heart for a man. If you were older & desperate for a child well go with the man. But you are young & have ample opportunities both in career & men. Just remember your career is more likely to take care of you & any children & put a roof over your head than a man. Even if they commit to marriage & kids, they can also choose to walk out on you at any time. Or like myself the love of your life passes away (yes it can & does happen). Go with what is truly you. Anything else you will later regret.

29. Helen 29

    Victoria: first, congratulations on receiving your job offer!

    It seems that a third option, besides the two being discussed here, has to do with how much time you have before you must give this new firm a decision. Is it enough time that you and your boyfriend can come to a closer decision about whether you are the “ones” for each other? A few months can make all the difference.

30. Ruby 30

    Actually, I think that having a long-distance relationship is a good compromise here. I do believe that it is too soon for Victoria’s boyfriend to pack up and move, as the relationship is still too new. Normally, I’m not a big fan of LDRs, but in this situation, it makes the most sense. It would allow Victoria to accept her new job in the city she loves, and for this couple to continue to be together, getting to know each other, and making sure this is the right relationship.

    But the boyfriend says no. I disagree with EMK that Victoria has given him an ultimatum. She’s the one who is offering a compromise – the LDR – and he is the one who is rejecting it. Actually, HE is the one giving her the ultimatum, “It’s either me or the new job”, and he offers no middle ground. He certainly doesn’t see himself living in Austin, whether Victoria is there or not, and he’s perfectly willing to give her up in order to avoid having to move.

    I wouldn’t give up on this job or Austin for this guy. The relationship just isn’t solid enough.

31. Helen 31

    Ruby, I agree. It isn’t Victoria giving her man an ultimatum. It’s he. Again, Victoria… you still have some wiggle room (see my more recent post), but all roads appear to point to Austin – for your good!

    Bluewoman and Tash make very important points. It is not a sin to look after your own interests and to consider possible negative consequences of giving up your job offer for this man. As for helene’s point, I would agree if the relationship were strong enough. But it certainly doesn’t sound that way in this case.

32. Clare 32

    Victoria,
    For my money, I think that when you are unsure between 2 options, and neither one feels completely right, I don’t think there is any harm in waiting a little longer before you make a decision. As you said, you’ve only just received the job offer. Let the decision incubate for a little, and you may find that one option starts to feel much more right than the other.

    Personally, I would hold onto this relationship, and give it a chance to develop. It sounds like a wonderful one, and those don’t come around all the time. Your boyfriend’s stance sounds consistent with what I think most great, self-respecting guys I know would have said. I think Evan’s point that the longer you are in a relationship with a guy, the more leverage you have, and the more he is willing to compromise for you should be given a lot of weight.

    If things become serious, he may well be willing to move to make you happy. Then again, perhaps not. There are no clear-cut answers here, but this is what I would do.

    Good luck.

33. Rue 33

    I can see where he’s coming from, because honestly…. my answer would be the same. And i’m a girl! I wouldn’t leave my home, my family, my friends, the place where I’m comfortable and happy for the unknown for… a boyfriend? No way. A husband, yes. But a boyfriend? nope. A relationship (in your case of a few months) isn’t solid enough for me (if I were in that position) to even consider making such a drastic change. So in that sense I can understand his stance. Because mine would be the same.

    By the same token, you’re so young and this is your time to make things happen in your life. Don’t hold back on pursuing your dreams and aspirations. Because if you do, then you’ll be thinking “what if, what if”.

34. Christine 34

    I’m surprised by all the comments romanticizing the idea of moving to Austin. Yes, it’s a dream of hers, but so what? Just because you’ve decided you like something doesn’t mean it’s a tragic loss if you weigh your (changed) options later and decide to hold off. As Evan said, Austin’s not going anywhere.

    Live long enough and you’ll realize that every place–or at least your life in it–is pretty much equivalent. Austin has cool stuff to do? You’ll spent 0.5% of your time doing it (and the rest of the time living like you do now: working, going out for dinner, catching a movie, hanging out at home, sleeping). Austin has cool people? The strangers there probably aren’t any more fun than the strangers where you are.

    Relocate, and in a year you’ll find you’re not living in a magical paradise, you’re living your days pretty much the way you are now. Except without the wonderful guy you’ve got.

    Good relationships aren’t that easy to find. Stick with your guy.

35. AnnieC 35

    @Victoria

    Don’t give up a career for a man, and don’t give up a man for a career.

    The issue isn’t really a career or where you live as these desires will change throughout your life. It is about what kind of relationship you wish to build and how you both negotiate each others desires.

    How about him? What does he want to do? Where does he see his future? And have you discussed building that future together?

    My current partner and I(we are both older and wiser ), have talked about many things we’d like to share. We are however very much ready to build a life with another person. Meaning we are both willing to move, we are both willing to change jobs to a degree, we are both willing to compromise on financial means and desires. It means the building of our relationship and commitment is part of our future plans, not that we will give up “everything” for the other, just that we will compromise with each other in mind.

    If people don’t have that desire, but are more long the lines of “well we love each other and want the other person to follow us on our individual life journey and be apart of our individual life journey” then it isn’t really a relationship but more a matter of convienence. I don’t say that harshly it is something that requires a lot of thought.

    And don’t waste too much time in your youth trying to figure it out. Do you want to build a relationship or not? A career is no substitute, but neither is hanging around in limbo hoping for something more. Don’t make the mistake a lot of young people make in relationships, by kind of sliding into one without any direction or goal.

    Evan gave good advice. The choice is yours. MAKE IT deliberately..don’t just fall into it.

36. Mia 36

    Well, if he’s saying that five months is too soon for him to move for you, it’s also too soon for you to not move for him. What are the odds that this guy isn’t going to dump you a couple months after you decide to stay? I’d go to Austin – you’ve dreamt of that long before you met him, and he doesn’t seem willing to try to work something out.

37. Mark 37

    Victoria,

    I’m going to buck the trend here.
    If the relationship is a good one I would choose the relationship.

    Here’s why – Good relationships don’t just come along every day and are not disposable. Especially if you click really well together.

    Depending on your chosen field you could always find a job and move to Austin if things don’t work out.
    But if you breakup and move to Austin then change your mind you may be out of luck.

    This is a touch one because you’ve only been together 5 months. You guys are still wasted on the wonderful brain drugs aka Chemistry So yes your judgment might be a bit skewed.

    I can understand his position. Put yourself in his shoes and you might feel the same about moving.

    Again this is tough sorry you have to make this difficult choice.

38. SS 38

    I agree with Ruby @30. What bothers me a bit is that the boyfriend doesn’t seem to be willing (right now, at least) to discuss a possible compromise. I can understand if he doesn’t want to do long-distance — it is hard — but if the relationship is as promising as Victoria describes it, I have to wonder how committed he really is if he simply decides “it’s over” if she moves to Austin.

    That might ultimately be the decision anyway, but it sounds like he doesn’t even want to attempt something long distance. I agree that he shouldn’t move to Austin, but I wonder why he’s so against compromising.

    Ultimately, it’s Victoria’s decision to make, but I think (as in my situation with the guy going to the FBI) one can figure out how much a boyfriend is truly invested in the relationship by his response to changes like these.

39. Goldie 39

    What Bluewoman and Mia said. It’s not like they’ve been together for ten years. It’s five months. Five freaking months, people! They don’t even know each other that well. To sacrifice your life’s dream for someone she’s only recently met is a lot to ask of Victoria, in my opinion.

    To those who say relocating doesn’t change a thing, as someone who moved from Eastern Europe to America, I beg to differ. At any rate, if it didn’t matter where you lived, people wouldn’t be leaving my Midwestern city in large numbers, never to come back. Apparently it matters to those thousands of people.

    I have to add, the BF’s comment that he would not move to Texas bothered me, as from what I understand Austin is very different from the rest of Texas. Has he ever been to Austin? Maybe he could visit and see what he thinks? What are his reasons for not wanting to move to Texas? Maybe those reasons do not apply to Austin?

40. Karmic Equation 40

    You already have your answer, you just don’t want to believe it. Sounds like you are still trying to negotiate something that really isn’t negotiable…his feelings for you…not Austin:

    “…but that any move would be “for the person he will spend the rest of his life with,” and that it’s still too early to know whether I’m that person.”

    You are already contemplating giving up a great job in a dream city for your BF, which means you think he’s “the one” already. But for him, the jury is still out whether YOU are the one for him. He’s not as into you as you are into him.

    Move to Austin. Live the life you dreamed. If your then ex-BF decides later that you are the one after all, you can both re-start the relationship and negotiate what needs to be negotiated. Assuming you haven’t met someone else. That’s the risk he takes for not loving you enough to follow your dreams with you.

    If the reality of Austin doesn’t match your dreams, you can always move back…and re-start the relationship if you’re both available willing.

    If he’s not willing or you’re not willing, then you guys weren’t meant to be after all.

    Five months into a relationship is too soon to give up a dream…but it’s not too soon to follow one, imho. He has less to lose by following you and your dreams than you have to lose by not following your dreams. That’s the bottom line I see.

41. Pearl 41

    Victoria, I would say go for Austin. There are no perfect men anyway, but there can be perfect jobs and perfect cities. If you are happy in your job, you are likely to bring more positiveness into your relationships. If you were engaged or married, it was worth sacrificing . But he has made it clear that he is not sure he wants to spend his life with you. So do you want to give up your dream for someone who may not be there in your life a few months or years down the lane ? If you give up this offer, he may even start taking you for granted.

    Congratulations on your new job offer and all the best whatever choice you make.

42. nathan 42

    I have to agree with Goldie and others who point to the newness of this relationship. I doubt the women who are being tough on this guy would uproot their lives after 5 months of dating. In fact, I can imagine the response would be almost exactly the same.

    Is he being too rigid? Probably. Will that be a problem down the line? I don’t know. In my opinion, neither of them are delivering ultimatums, but both are drawing lines in the sand in somewhat arbitrary ways, because they really don’t know each other well enough to truly decide.

    What matters to you most? And what actions will support that? Take the time to consider the questions, instead of feeling like you have to have answers today.

43. Joe 43

    @ Bluewoman 27:

    The other other side of the coin is this:

    Victoria moves to Austin. The city/job isn’t quite what she’d remembered/hoped. Now she’s stuck in a city/job with no BF.

    If she stays in her current city, and the BF later breaks up with her, she’s only back to where she was 5 months ago–same city, same job, no BF.

44. AS 44

    @CupOfTea 25, I agree with your sentiments, often when we try to replicate something as it was good the first time round, the settings will always be variable and not constant, therefore you can never know if it will be as good as the first time.

    @Victoria, it’s a challenging decision to make and I would probably go with the option where I am least likely to feel regretful if it does not work out how I anticipated. Good luck!

45. Ruby 45

    Joe #43

    Austin’s her dream city – I don’t think she’d feel stuck there. It’s not as if she can never meet another guy there.

    But she might deeply regret not taking the new job if she and her boyfriend break up. She would still probably want to move to Austin, but would now have to wait until another great opportunity came up.

46. Janice 46

    This man is not committed to her, neither is he making any noise about committing to her. In fact, he’s saying the opposite.

    I would say that Victoria’s desire to MOVE BACK to Austin is not a dream. It is a reality. She knows the place, she wants to return there to live, she has been clear about this with herself and with those around her, and now she has the opportunity to build a life there.

    Victoria has a long-standing relationship with that place. The love for a place can be as powerful as the love for a person.
    She does not have a long-standing relationship with the BF and he is dismissive of what is important to her and unwilling to explore options or compromises.

    Maybe her intuition is telling her that her real love is somewhere else and that’s why she likes that place so much.

47. K 47

    @Joe 43 I tend to agree with you.

    If her question was should I move to Austin to go to medical school in furtherance of my life long dream of becoming a doctor vs. staying in current city and not being a doctor or waiting for years to get in somewhere closer, then I would say go to Austin. That is a missed opportunity that can throw your life off track. In her shoes I would just stay in my current city and see where the relationship goes (if it’s a fabulous one). If they break up in 5 months, maybe that dream job won’t be there still in Austin. Maybe it won’t be for a few years. If she is talented (and she is young) something will come up in Austin or somewhere she decides is great. I changed my dream city in my 20s. But this is coming from someone who would put love first. I could be happy now in many cities (even pretty boring ones for the right person). So maybe something you can only learn by living. Also I tend to find real love and relationships rarely. If you are the kind of person who tends to always be in a relationship and falls in love easily then likely the move will be worth it for you. Depends how you see love and where you are in your life. Pretty sure either path is going to make you happy at some point or at least give you the life experiences we are all sharing with you on here.

48. Lily 48

    I say follow your heart. Let’s assume that he probably has all the information that you have about the job and cities being comparable in the sense that neither situation is awful, in fact both are more than acceptable. If he thought there might be more of a future, he would speak up. Something with the sentiment, “I can’t promise you anything. But I know I really like/love you and would like to spend more time with you to see where this goes. Please consider giving us more time.” If you move to Austin, you will likely find a man who is just as passionate about being in and enjoying Austin!

49. Bluewoman 49

    Seriously, this guy has already told you how he feels about you and the relationship right now.

    Imagine he’s the one with the job offer. Would HE stay back for you?

50. Anonymous Editor 50

    Here’s a flipside scenario – What if Victoria was working and living in Austin, Texas when her boyfriend of 5 months tells her one day that he’s managed to get his dream job in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania. Will she be willing to uproot herself and join him, thus leaving behind her dream job/place, friends, and family? Will she be willing to engage in a long-distance relationship, traveling back and forth to see each other every weekend/month, thus spending hundreds of dollars in travel expenses every year?

    If the two of you had been going out for 1-2 years, there’s a good chance that your boyfriend would likely be more willing to relocate (we guys don’t mind going the extra mile for a partner that we have long invested our time and effort in). But at 5 months, both of you are just only started to know each other. If I were in your boyfriend’s position, I would have likely given the same answer.

    As Evan said, I’m sure you’ll find a good man for you in Austin. All the best.

51. Janice 51

    Am I missing something or is the main message coming from the posters here that women have to give up everything to be with a man? Here’s the advice I’ve read on here:

    1) Don’t aspire to anything in your own right because his career is going to trump yours and you’re going to have to follow him wherever he goes.

    2) Don’t have any hobbies because he doesn’t care about them and you’re going to have to give them up when you have a baby anyway.

    3) Don’t be too good at anything because it’s going to turn him off.

    4) Don’t pursue any disciplined activity because it’s going to take time away from him, which will turn him off.

    4) Just be “cool” and maybe provide snacks while he sits on the couch with the game (his hobby), reveals in all sorts of small ways his attractions to other women (because he just can’t help himself), and mulls over whether or not he wants to be with you (because as long as there’s no drama and he wants to be with you, you’d be crazy to let this one go).

    5) Don’t fret, because once he’s committed and the naive you who knows nothing about parenting actually has a child, you will be so overwhelmed by the 24/7 responsibility that nothing else will matter.

    Why would any woman sign up for this, and why aren’t men speaking out against this negative stereotype of their gender? (Preferably by providing examples of ways they defy the stereotype.)

52. Joe 52

    This point has been made before regarding the “Austin dream”:

    I still live close to the town where I went to college and grad school (although technically it’s part of a large metropolitan area anyway), and occasionally go there for various occasions. I enjoyed living there when I was in college, and many things are still familiar about it, but some things have changed (that’s progress for you), and I wouldn’t want to live there again. Partly because the place has changed, and partly because I’ve changed.

53. Karl R 53

    Janice said: (#51)
    “Here’s the advice I’ve read on here:
    1) Don’t aspire to anything in your own right because his career is going to trump yours and you’re going to have to follow him wherever he goes.”

    In my opinion, if both people have careers and one person wishes to move for their career, it’s going to cause stress and upheaval for both people.

    Neither my fiancée nor I expect to move for career purposes. That is one possible solution. But I would say that this issue is one that you should jointly consider before getting engaged.

    “2) Don’t have any hobbies because he doesn’t care about them and you’re going to have to give them up when you have a baby anyway.”

    You can have hobbies, but don’t expect it to generally increase your value as a potential partner. (I don’t consider most of my hobbies to increase my value as a partner.)

    Having kids will require both of you to cut back on your hobbies, or possibly give some of them up completely. Since I’m not having kids, that’s not an issue for me.

    “3) Don’t be too good at anything because it’s going to turn him off.”

    If you’re really good at sex, it’s going to be a major turn-on. If you’re really good at most other things, it will be neither a turn-on nor a turn-off.

    Do you get turned on thinking about dating a man who is the champion of his bowling league? It’s nice that he has a hobby which he enjoys and excells at, but it’s hardly going to cause women to pursue him.

    “4) Don’t pursue any disciplined activity because it’s going to take time away from him, which will turn him off.”

    That depends on the time commitment of the activity. If it takes one or two nights per week, no problem. If it takes 6 or 7 nights per week, you might as well give up on dating.

    After the first few dates, most of my relationships (that went anywhere) involved us getting together at least two nights per week. If both people have 3 evenings blocked off for scheduled activities, it’s extremely likely that they will have two nights available for each other. If both people have 5 evenings blocked off for scheduled activities, it’s extremely unlikely that their two free nights will match up. At 4 nights per week, it’s a coin toss.

    “4) Just be ‘cool’ and maybe provide snacks while he sits on the couch with the game (his hobby),”

    Would you date a man who gave you grief about pursuing your hobby?

    “reveals in all sorts of small ways his attractions to other women”

    Would you date a man who was so insecure and jealous that he gets upset if you look at or mention another man whom you find attractive?

    “and mulls over whether or not he wants to be with you”

    If you were dating a man who you like, but whom you’re not certain is husband material, how would you respond to a high-pressure proposal?

    Janice asked: (#51)
    “Why would any woman sign up for this, and why aren’t men speaking out against this negative stereotype of their gender?”

    You’re generally complaining about advice and situations that apply equally to women and men. For some reason you find this intolerable to women and insulting to men.

    I’m just making a guess, but I think your perspective is going to cause you to struggle in relationships. You might want to follow your own advice and avoid romantic relationships for now.

54. nathan 54

    Karl, Janice is bringing up points from multiple threads here. And from what I see, her general point is that if you add up some of the advice being given to women in the comments, it sounds like women should should return being like a 1950′s housewife.

    Many of the individual pieces could, on their own, be decent advice depending on the situation. Although others, such as the idea that only a man’s job is worth re-locating for, or that he’ll never re-locate for a woman, need to be challenged.

    I fail to see where Janice’s comments will cause her to “struggle” in relationships though. She’s questioning a collection of extremes. Others have already questioned each one of those things on her list – she’s just put them all in one post.

55. Evan Marc Katz 55

    Nathan, I’m not sure what the term is for taking a moderate argument and twisting it into something extreme (straw man, perhaps?), but Janice provided a perfect example of that.

    We see this bit of trickery on the blog all the time. I’ll say that perhaps you shouldn’t be such a slave to chemistry. She’ll reply, “What? You expect me to go out with some fat, ugly, unemployed loser that I’m not remotely attracted to?”

    Then I have to go back and remind her that this is NOT what I said at all.

    People who see things in black and white, like, say, many Republicans (sorry – had to go there), have a really hard time reconciling the facts with their feelings.

    The fact is that anyone who is on the extremes of ANYTHING is going to struggle. The woman with four dogs. The guy who works 80 hours a week. The religious person who insists that her partner worship in the exact same way that she does. The militant atheist who can’t respect others’ beliefs. The woman who goes windsurfing 30 weeks a year. The man who insists on being at all Boston Red Sox home games and traveling to spring training. There are people with hobbies and there are people who demand that their partners cater their lives to their passions.

    If you can’t see the difference between those two things, I’m not sure how to illustrate it better.

56. Karl R 56

    nathan said: (#54)
    “the idea that only a man’s job is worth re-locating for, or that he’ll never re-locate for a woman, need to be challenged.”

    The only person who said anything close to that was Janice (#51), and I challenged her on it.

    The next closest anyone got to that statement was helene: (#26)
    “I think its important to point out that as a rule, men DO NOT relocate for women or women’s careers – even if you are married.”

    I can’t find enough factual data to support or challenge helene’s assertion.

    Evan (#55) is correct in identifying Janice’s statement (#51) as a straw man argument.

57. Mia 57

    Janice, I agree that the image that emerges from some of these comments makes men seem awful and marriage like a waste of time. I’m sure there is some truth to these things, and many men who think like this. Hell, even some ideas that Evan has about marriage – which I have no doubt are widely shared by men – I dispute.

    But there isn’t one type of man or one type of marriage. I don’t see a lot of these distasteful ideas about men present in my single guy friends – depends who you hang out with. If you’re hanging around traditional men and alphas ( I’d consider Evan an alpha) you’ll get one set of behaviors and assumptions that’s very different than some other types of guys- find the guys who are compatible with YOU.

58. Janice 58

    Nathan@54: Yes, you have my meaning right, and these were things things that I noticed among the comments in multiple threads. There are the specific points that people make, and then there is the general tone of things. The tone arises out of the specific points, and you don’t have to twist anything to hear it.

    Karl@53: I pretty much would be interested in a champion bowler. But this is a blog for women, so most of the advice plays out that way. The commentators usually do not couch their statements in gender-neutral language. Wish there were more of that, actually.

59. Nathan 59

    I was considering Janice’s other recent comments in addition to what she said in this one. I don’t see her as having the pattern of, for example, the Amy that haunted both of our blogs.

    Perhaps I am wrong, but she seems to be a newer commenter. And given the blowback there’s been about hobbies/passions, children, and a few other things, I could see why she might respond in such. Note that I didn’t say I agreed with the framing of her last comment: it was a short summary, with the main point being that I disagreed with Karl’s assessment of her dating status. It seemed like an unnecessary jab. In fact, I actually agreed with much of what he said leading up to those last two sentences, but she might agree with him as well on those points for all we know.

    Anyway, I would rather Janice come on and speak about what her intention was with that comment than assume. There just isn’t a body of evidence – unless I have missed it – suggesting she is running on extremes and seeing everything in black/white terms.

60. Portlandgal 60

    Same situation…kinda. Moved to Austin for a job I loved, met a guy immediately, fell in and love and then he told me he was moving to New England for grad school. He told me I was welcome to come with him. I did. I missed Austin, hell I still do, but I know I made the right decision. Don’t take a great guy for granted, they are much harder to come by than great cities.

61. Ruby 61

    While I’m not sure that I would agree with all of Janice’s points, I do think that some of what she says strikes a chord for me. The notion that men don’t care about a woman’s hobbies and accomplishments sounds like b.s. to me, and always has. Sure, men want women who make them feel good, but they also want women they can share interests and experiences with. Perhaps I’m in the minority, but this has been especially true for me since I don’t want kids, and most of the men I’ve dated either already had them and didn’t want more, or haven’t wanted them either.

62. Janice 62

    Nathan@59: I wasn’t quoting anyone verbatim, if that’s what’s required to make a point on here. My views on relationship are pretty open–I don’t care if women give up their careers and their passions to get married or if they follow their men around the planet and carry the babies in a pouch and breast feed them into kindergarten (to offer up an extreme). But if that’s always the way the thought here goes (and not nec that it’s coming from the host–maybe most women think that way and want that–can’t say)–well, a little too narrow for my tastes.

    What is your blog? I’ll check it out.

    And not currently dating because I live with someone (three years on). Not planning on getting married, so no cow and milk comments.

63. Karl R 63

    Janice said: (#62)
    “I wasn’t quoting anyone verbatim, if that’s what’s required to make a point on here.”

    It’s not a requirement, but I would strongly encourage you to do so. You’ve been demonstrating a habit of misrepresenting other people’s opinions in an extreme way (for example, “if that’s always the way the thought here goes”). Quoting people verbatim might keep you from doing so as frequently.

    Furthermore, if you actually want to make a point which people will listen to, eliminate anything “extreme” from your posts. I try to eliminate the following words from my posts: always, never, everyone, nobody, every, none. When you’re talking about people, absolute statements are almost always wrong. You can usually find a few exceptions.

    For example, it is possible that there are a few women on this blog who want to “give up their careers and their passions to get married” and “follow their men around the planet and carry the babies in a pouch and breast feed them into kindergarten”. But I have never heard a woman express that desire on this blog.

    The absolute term (“never”) is used to describe my experiences. The non-absolute terms (“possible”, “a few”) are used to discuss other people.

    Janice said: (#58)
    “The commentators usually do not couch their statements in gender-neutral language. Wish there were more of that, actually.”

    Then lead by example. Regardless of whether people follow your example, there will still be at least one more person making gender-neutral statements than there is today.

64. Victoria 64

    Portlandgal (#60),

    How long were you two dating when you decided to make the move?

    All,

    The comments and advice on this post have been immeasurably helpful. I’m still not certain what I will decide to do, but you are all giving me a lot to think about. Thank you.

    -Victoria

65. RW 65

    Victoria,
    Good luck to you! This is not an easy decision to make. I think your inital letter presented things in very black and white terms but the information you have added since has presented a more balanced view. Ultimately, it is your decision to make but I hope you two are able to work out some sort of compromise. I’m slightly taken aback by how definite your boyfriend is on the matter. I understand that you are introducing change into the existing situation. I also understand that he has clear and justifiable feelings on the subject of long distance relationships. However, I would have hoped that he would have offered the possibility of discussing a compromise (for both of you, not just for him) instead of a cut and dried “you leave and it’s over”. He cannot change the way he feels but it makes me queasy and unsure about the depth of his feeling. Then again, maybe you only gave us the end result of the conversation and not everything that was said before the end was reached.
    In any case, don’t think of this as a be-all, end-all kind of situation. If you move to Austin, you will find other men. If you stay, you will find other jobs. I do think overall though, good jobs are easier to find than good men and you are not unhappy in your current situation. Even if this relationship does not pan out, Austin will still be waiting for you later. Good luck again and please let us know how things turn out.

66. Janice 66

    Wow. Read through some of the previous posts just for my own edification and there seems to be a lot of contention on here.

    Nathan–think I found your site. Cool! And you look super cute.

67. Nathan 67

    Thanks Janice. I am due to put some new posts out soon.

    And yes, Evan seems to bring out the contention. I give him props for managing to mostly keep the place civil.

68. Quinn 68

    Hi Victoria,
    I currently live in Austin, and it’s nice here but drought conditions are horrible and scary right now… I know so many longtime Austinites that wish they could leave because of it.
    Further, good men are hard to find- stick with the one you’ve got. It’s who you’re with, not where you are that matters in the end.
    Just my two cents…

69. Janice 69

    Nathan@67: In general I’m a lot more open about the forms that relationships can take and I’m not into gender roles and the bickering over that kind of stuff. It’s a time of great social change, which is very exciting to me, and I feel very much on course re: right livelihood, right relationships.

    So I’ll be checking out your site and looking for the new posts. Kudos on a job well done!

70. AnnieC 70

    @55.

    The words you are looking for are emotional hysteria, Hystronics, or melodramatic.

    I suspect however that people might be a little offended over that, even though it is actually correct. (Look up Hystronic personality disorder for extreme cases of this).

    Strawman isn’t the correct term however. The strawman deliberally goes down the garden parth and twists logic, Hystronics exagerates facts and reacts emotionally and hostile to those facts.

    Completely off-topic I know, but it helps to understand what one is dealing with and why.

71. AnnieC 71

    @56

    Men are perfectly willing to move for a womans career.

    The elephant in the room that no-one wishes to discuss far too often, is that many many women choose careers that are more transportable and less specialized(such as nursing). Also MOST women want to have children and want to stay at home at least for a portion of their kids lives, therefore they CHOOSE to follow their husbands, because HE can provide them with their preferred lifestyle…which..is NOT a career.

    I have yet to meet a man, that refuses to move for a woman. I have YET to come across this in my friendship/aquaintance circle. What I do see, is women willingly moving to be where men are, because the men earn more often have more earning potential long term, and the woman plans on staying at home with a child anyway so she supports her guy and moves.

    Let’s be realistic ladies about what’s really going on, and once again not believing that men are some-how making all these terrible demands on women(I’m talking to YOU Janice) and be realistic about why things usually go down the way they do.

    Most women, choose it this way.

72. Ruby 72

    It’s amazing to me that in this day and age, people, and even other women, still fall into the trap of labeling a woman who disagrees as hysterical. The medical community has long been guilty of this as well. Actually, the more extreme Histrionic Personality Disorder notwithstanding, female hysteria was a once-common medical diagnosis, made exclusively in women, which is today no longer recognized by modern medical authorities as a medical disorder.

73. Helen 73

    Speaking only anecdotally, I personally know at least ten couples in which the husband moved for the wife’s job, in some cases even when both of them had high-flying careers. In one case, although the husband made much more than the wife, he followed her to California for her dream job.

    So while I can’t speak for men as a whole, I can say it certainly isn’t impossible that men would be willing to move for their wives’ careers.

74. Janice 74

    Annie@71, EMK, Karl, others: Hystrionic personality disorder? Strawmen? Twisting things? Men making terrible demands on women? Where are you all getting this from? Egad.

    I’m not sure what this blog is about. It seems to be about dating, but most of the commentators seem to be married people or people coupled up in some way. There seem to be a lot of attacks against people with dissenting views, most of whom actually seem to be dating, and banishment if you don’t agree with the dom people on here. It seems like the dom people have all been here awhile and relish ganging up on the dissenters.

    Again–egad.

75. Portlandgal 75

    Victoria,

    We met in March, started dating in May, he left in August and then we did long distance until Jan when I moved. It moved pretty fast due to the circumstances of him leaving soon.

76. Helen 76

    Ruby 72: I’m not sure AnnieC was specifically labeling Janice “hysterical.” I think she was responding to Evan’s wondering what the correct term was in #55. That said, “hysterical” isn’t quite the right word. Melodramatic or overblown might be more appropriate.

    And yes, the history of diagnosing female hysteria is very interesting. Supposedly it had to do with a “wandering womb” that needed to be massaged. Oddly, even feminist writers such as Naomi Wolf recommended those same types of treatments in her book “Misconceptions,” and claimed that these treatments had their roots in Native American or Asian practices.

77. Evan Marc Katz 77

    @Janice – I let your insulting comment through to be vetted by the rest of the community. I will simply point out that you came in here on the attack. The rest of us are just playing defense.

78. Ruby 78

    Helen #76

    AnnieC lumps the terms, “emotional hysteria, Hystronics, or melodramatic” together, and I do think she was referring to Janice. Naomi Wolf also said, “Pain is real when you get other people to believe in it. If no one believes in it but you, your pain is madness or hysteria.”

79. Janice 79

    EMK77: What do you mean about an “insulting comment”–are you saying I called a comment insulting or I made an insulting comment? If the latter and you’re talking about #51, those were legitimate questions based on stuff I read on here! Ha! Too funny! But hardly insulting. See Nathan62. He got it right.

    But the hair-trigger response to that comment and to the others I made on the “STILL not married” post–comments that don’t seem attacking to me at all–show me that there’s some long-standing hostility on this blog that has nothing to do with me or my handful of posts.

80. Karl R 80

    Janice asked: (#74)
    “Where are you all getting this from?”

    I could (and will) ask the same thing of you.

    Janice said: (#51)
    “Here’s the advice I’ve read on here:
    1) Don’t aspire to anything in your own right”…
    “2) Don’t have any hobbies”…
    “3) Don’t be too good at anything”…
    “4) Don’t pursue any disciplined activity”…

    Where are you getting this from? Where did anyone give those specific pieces of “advice”. Unless you can find someplace (on this blog) where that advice was given, you were twisting what people said.

    Wikipedia definition of “straw man”:
    “A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To ‘attack a straw man’ is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the ‘straw man’), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”

    helene (#26) did not advise “Don’t aspire to anything in your own right” (nor did anyone else). You misrepresented her position. Then you refuted her position (and the other misrepresented positions) as being something women wouldn’t sign up for.

    It’s not quite a textbook example, but it’s a straw man argument.

    If you want to disagree with someone (and have others respect your views), then follow the example of the people you consider “dominant”.

    When helene (#26) said, “men DO NOT relocate for women or women’s careers” and “Men basically choose where you’re going to live;” Helen (#73) provided a counterexample of 10 couples she personally knows. I also know several couples with high-powered careers where the husband has followed the wife.

    There’s no need to misrepresent what helene said in order to effectively disagree with it.

    Getting back to the orignal topic, as AnnieC (#71) mentioned, some careers make relocating easier. If one spouse has an easy time relocating, you can even see higher-earning husbands following lower-earning wives to new cities.

81. Helen 81

    Evan 77: agreed.

    None of us regulars here make an effort to gang up on anyone else. If we did so, Evan would put an end to it. We speak up when we believe someone, new or old to this blog, is being irrational, spiteful, attacking, or a combination thereof.

    Of course, it’s not only then that we speak up. We also do so when someone (including the OP) has made an interesting point, or one to which we feel we can contribute helpful thoughts.

    For example, it isn’t by design that my comments often align with those of Goldie, Karl, and Ruby, among other regulars here. It is that we tend to think the same way, either because of shared experiences or shared values in discussions (e.g., scientific evidence, reason).

    That said: I do not think Janice’s post #51 was “hysterical,” though it was exaggerated (maybe that’s a word you were looking for, Evan). By and large, men and women have the happiest relationships when women can express their wants in non-confrontational ways; not when women keep caving in and deferring to men on jobs, locales, etc. Usually, men are happy to try to fulfill our wishes if we express them nicely. In the OP’s case, however, it did not turn out that way because the man does not care enough about her (yet?) to move or to engage in an LTR for her sake. Because of the nuances of what she has expressed, I don’t feel much hope for this relationship, and advise her moving to Austin. But only she knows her situation best.

82. Janice 82

    Sorry, Karl. I’m not too interested in engaging in a debate with you and slogging through weeks worth of old posts to show you where I got my impressions of this blog. I do other things with my time and I’m in a LTR, so these kinds of exchanges about dating (which I don’t engage in) and what men v. women do/think/want aren’t too useful or interesting to me. My mistake–I thought it was different because of Nathan’s comments, and I felt called upon to defend him on that other thread, which is what started all this ranting against me. But I found out that he has a blog about relationships, so that’s cool. I’ll go there and you all can stay here. All’s well that ends well!

83. Lisa 83

    Karl, you might consider that Janice has made some valid points. I too sometimes get the impression that a lot of the advice or blowback on here is from the 1950s handbook. But you don’t seem genuinely interested in knowing why she had this impression. You seem like you just want to beat her over the head with something to show that you’re right and she’s wrong. Which isn’t going to get you anything but defensive comments back or the person just going away.

    Helen, you don’t have to make an effort to gang up on people. Gangs engage in groupthink, not conspiracies. By definition groupthink is not noticed by the people who engage in it.

    And yeah, there does seem to be this general tendency for people to go all parental and make jabs, as Nathan pointed out, as in telling people who disagree that they’ll never get a relationship, or the married or engaged person (who knows why they’re on here to begin with) somehow knows something that the single person doesn’t, or that the parent knows more than the CF person. That seems very black and white to me and not truthful. Certainly not helpful.

    There’s no one way to do relationship.

84. Karl R 84

    Lisa said: (#83)
    “I too sometimes get the impression that a lot of the advice or blowback on here is from the 1950s handbook.”

    Unless there’s an official 1950s handbook that many people have read (and can therefore understand as a common frame of reference), then that comment is intended as an insult, not a genuine attempt to communicate an idea.

    I’m perfectly aware that some of the advice sounds like it came from my parents’ era (and they got married in the 50s). That’s because the advice on this blog does not represent the ideals of an enlightened society where everyone is treated as equals.

    The advice given represents the stuff we found actually works in the world we live in. The advice can be just as ugly as the reality we experience.

    Victoria’s ugly reality is that she has two great opportunities in front of her (a job opportunity and a potential husband), and she can only pursue one of them. Regardless of which she chooses, the opportunity she pursues might not work out well in the long run.

    She doesn’t have to like it. She doesn’t have to listen. But that’s the reality she’s likely to experience.

    Lisa said: (#83)
    “the parent knows more than the [child-free] person. That seems very black and white to me and not truthful. Certainly not helpful.”

    Let’s assume I’ve never done your job. (I don’t know what your job is, but it’s likely that I’ve never done it.) Let’s assume that you know how to do your job (perhaps not to complete perfection, but I strongly suspect that you’re competent at your own job.)

    Let’s say I come up to you and start telling you how to do your job better. I’ve never done your job. You have no idea whether I’d even be able to perform your job at a barely-adequate level, much less better than you do. Are you inclined to take my advice and immediately implement my suggestions?

    As the inexperienced person, I would expect to have a tough time selling my ideas to a person who was more experienced, even if my ideas were 100% correct.

    You’ve done your job. Do you believe you know something about your job that I don’t know? Do you think you know how to do your job better than I do?

    Parenting is a complicated job. Nathan hasn’t done it (and neither have I). Since you don’t believe that I could just walk up and immediately have a better understanding of your job than you do, why do you believe that Nathan has a better understanding of parenting than parents do?

    If Nathan has a better understanding, I’d recommend that he present some proof or evidence along with his ideas. People will more readily accept them that way.

    Lisa said: (#83)
    “the married or engaged person [...] somehow knows something that the single person doesn’t,”

    A (somewhat) unfair question from me:
    Do you know how to end up married to a wonderful husband? If you do, why aren’t you married to a wonderful husband already?

    As I indicated, this isn’t a completely fair question. You will understand how to get a great husband before you get a great husband. But you showed up here because you are trying to learn how. I showed up here when I was trying to learn.

    From the time you first show up here (as a single person) until the time you find a great husband, you will learn some things about men/dating/relationships that you didn’t already know. This isn’t news to you. It’s the reason you’re here.

    Why does it bother you that the people who are engaged/married have learned something that the single people are still discovering?

85. Sabrina 85

    Victoria, congrats on the opportunity to follow your dream! Evan gives great advice. It’s unfortunate you have to choose, but life is full of major and minor decisions. In the end, every little choice you make will ultimately lead you to the right one. Good luck!

86. Gloria 86

    Hi Victoria,

    I was in the same shoes once. I’m was in LOVEEEEE with new york city. I had lived there for two years, I was positive I will go back and lead the lifestyle there after grad school. Mind you, I had started dating since I was 16, and 12 years later, loads of bfs, and flings, and nothing to show for it.

    Slightly less than a year before I finished grad school, I met a boy in Boston. We clicked, he was everything I wanted in a man. Not that he was perfect, but we laughed and agreed on the same stuff and had relatively similar values. 5 months in, I knew I needed to make a choice. I broached having a long distance with him, and he pretty much said the same thing. I’m not into having a long distance. He liked me, but its not as though he was going to lay down his life and sacrifice it for me at that point. And that is totally reasonable. If a guy while I was in NYC I dated for 6 months asked me to move to Ohio, I probably would have never gone no matter how much I liked him at that stage.

    So I bit the bullet and stayed. i got a job in Boston. i said goodbye to NYC. I got promoted in my career. And now I’m moving with him to be his wife in California. And you know what, NYC does not really seem that appealing anymore versus having a life with him. And as our relationship grew our love grew and our friendship grew. Only so many restaurants I can go to, plays, and nights of bitching about men with my single girl pals.

    So my take is, you’re not even sacrificing your career advancement as your job options are equally good. But a really great man is hard to find…i totally agree with Evan that he laid out for you what your options are. good luck!

87. Lisa 87

    Karl, everyone is different. What works for you doesn’t work for me, and vice versa. And the culture around us is changing very rapidly, if you haven’t noticed. Those of us who are emotionally and culturally aware of ourselves and other people realize that we have to find our own way, and it’s sometimes useful to hear about others’ experiences. But not if it comes from a place of “I know better than you.” Because you don’t. You only know what’s right for you. What’s right for you might also be right in some measure for someone else. MAYBE. You aren’t and won’t ever be the judge of what is right for someone else.

88. Evan Marc Katz 88

    Lisa, Karl’s point isn’t that everyone is the same. His point – and mine – is that there are certain behaviors that are more conducive to getting into a healthy long-term relationship. Those who are in healthy long-term relationships are likely in a better position to speak about it than those who are not. Just as race-car drivers can probably talk more pointedly about their sport than fans, or pro basketball players can speak to the perils of playing in the NBA better than college players. Some people actually do know better about certain things. To suggest otherwise is to deny reality. I’ve long said that if you don’t want to get along better with men or don’t want a long-term relationship, I’m not sure why you’d read this blog. It’s like telling a guy who writes a steak blog that he’s wrong because he doesn’t cook vegetarian. You didn’t just question my advice based on logic and facts, you came in and completely misrepresented what this place is all about. I get emails every single day from women around the world who say that I helped to change their lives for the better. If my advice doesn’t work for you, it’s cool. Just go somewhere else. But don’t come in here and tell me and my smart, strong, successful readers that we’re trying to set the clock back to the 1950′s. We’re simply trying to get people to make effective relationship choices.

89. Gloria 89

    just wanted to add to my story, when we knew each other for 5 months, he was pretty clear he was not into long distance. It was not that he was unflexible, he just knew what he wanted and no matter how much he liked me he did not want a long distance.

    Now we’re engaged we come to compromises all the time. moving to california was a compromise, he wanted a more exotic island locale. We’re talking about me going back to business school and being apart for 2 yrs, circumstances change.

90. David T 90

    @ Evan 88 and @ Karl 84 “Those who are in healthy long-term relationships are likely in a better position to speak about it than those who are not.”

    “As the inexperienced person, I would expect to have a tough time selling my ideas to a person who was more experienced, even if my ideas were 100% correct.”

    Someone who has succeeded or done has a better chance of knowing what is what that the inexperienced, but in both parenting AND being in a successful relationship the sample size is very small. One thing I have learned and seen as a parent is there are many different kinds of child personality and environment combinations. Parents can do little more than share the mechanics of feeding, clothing, etc and then talk about what worked with *their particular child* for the other things.

    Evan has an edge regarding relationship success because he has *seen* so many clients lose lose lose and then find success. He can see the common factors over many cases.

    As for the 1950′s comment, I have observed a definite shift in how men and women treat one another in our culture between the 70′s and early 80′s and now. I see more women expecting to be cared for and to stay at home and not work ever (whether it actually plays out that way or not is different. I am talking about expections.) In the rather wealthy town I live in, it seems like the vast majority of mothers are full time moms. This is a complete turnaround from what I expected to see by now as a child of the 70′s with a professional mother.

    It is not a stretch to say dating behaviors surrounding this cultural reshift might more closely match dating behaviors of the pre-70′s.

    Evan’s advice becomes even more valuable to people like Lisa and successful woman professionals who are more likely to be thinking in of dating in a way that is (sadly, in my perception) out of step with the bulk of what is US culture in the ‘naughties and ‘teens.

    You can refuse to acknowledge the shift, and see your dating pool shrink to broader minded or 70′s/80′s minded men (there are some), or you can play the game as it is and increase your odds of success. I am not going to get into a discussion about what is ‘instinctual’ and ‘natural’ because we are big brained critters and I think it is a canard or cop out to say “men need to be the pursuer and hunters. . ” etc., and different cultures see vastly different behavioral norms. I will admit however that in the sub-culture I live in today (U.S. middle class) that the dating behaviors Evan talks about as what people are comfortable with represent the majority.

91. Lisa 91

    EMK, David, Karl: I believe the question was not why should people who aren’t married/with kids/whatever seek out advice from people who are, but why does someone like Karl, who is engaged, go on a dating site to offer it, unsolicited? I get it that it’s your job, from before you were married, but why are there so many married/engaged/coupled people on here so concerned about the unmarried people in the world? Not gettin it.

    When it comes to practical knowledge (playing basketball) I agree that there are people who know better than others and are quailfied to give advice. But matters of the heart are not practical things. And your idea of “healthy” and your idea of “relationship” may not comport with mine. One size does not fit all–not even in basketball.

    Karl, there are actually many dating/mating handbooks from the 1950s. The first one that springs to mind is the Good Housekeeping cookbook from 1956. Read the intro. Hysterical!

    David T: Your subculture is shrinking. That’s what I’m talkin about. Your kids are going to be dating/mating in a completetly different world from yours. And they’re going to be ranting against the 2010 handbook!

92. David T 92

    @Lisa 91

    If my son is anything like me, and so far he seems to be a *lot* like me, he is *already* ranting against the 2010 handbook. I don’t like the dating behaviors and role expectations that are considered the norm. At the same time I recognize they are what Evan would probably say is the most effective with most women. This is one place I will always have a hard time compromising. C ‘est la vie. I can be happy being single if that is what it means.

93. Helen 93

    Lisa 91: the question you ask is hardly relevant. This is the world wide web. People of all sorts go onto all different sites. Evan happens to have a very good blog that attracts attention from multiple types of people.

    Besides, it seems that you are the exact same person as “Janice”, who earlier claimed (#82) that she was going to be leaving this site. (One surmises this from the writing style, mode of thought process, mode of argument, and topics raised.) If that is true, you are still around despite what you said earlier; so why point the finger at anyone else who happens to be here, whether they’re engaged or married?

    Evan has a GREAT blog. The advice here isn’t relevant only to those who aren’t engaged or married; they’re also relevant to those who are already in long LTRs/marriages. Recently, I’ve been following one piece of advice he gave on how married people should spend 5 minutes per day expressing their appreciation for their spouses and what they provide. I can see that my husband appreciates that. As Evan said earlier, it’s a strawman argument to point out that everyone is different and every relationship is different. We all know that. But certain constants exist, regardless, such as expression of appreciation being appreciated.

    As for Karl R dispensing advice, he is well within his rights to do that as a commenter on this blog (many commenters do that; if Evan found it objectionable, he’d stop it). Karl happens to have some the most logical and thought-provoking comments I’ve read here; some make me laugh, others make me think. He has the best “game” I’ve seen of taking a story and turning it upon the commenter herself (“What would YOU do in this situation”), and his advice about being realistic in expectations and not playing victim in relationships is sound.

    This blog is useful for everyone, and it is not your place to say who should or should not be here.

94. Mia 94

    Yes, sometimes it seems like we’re back in the 50s again with dating advice/gender theories in general (not necessarily Evan), and some of the feminine/masculine energy theories go way too far and seem to be setting up women who take them too literally to be devoid of any initiative in their careers, finances, or the possibility of an equal relationship. But then you read about the behavior of the types of women Evan is meeting with – things I was not aware women were doing, such as trying to be always right around a guy, trying to control him, debate him, going on dates like they’re job interviews – and well, maybe there are a lot of people out there who could benefit from being told to tamp it down. Personally, I think these types just need to learn to relate to human beings better in general and learn better manners, but whatever works.

    Yes, sometimes Evan and a lot of people on this blog come off to me as too traditional/old-fashioned, but you can find men out there who complement your particular approach and outlook as long as you let go of requirements of how he’s supposed to look, his bank account, etc., and accept that it may take longer if you’re not looking for something completely traditional. There are plenty of men who would relocate for the girl, who don’t want a woman who never initiates contact when they’re in an established relationship, who do want a woman with an active life who cares about her career, who date average-looking women, who aren’t wild beasts driven by sex that must be tamed. It’s up to US to let go of checklists and negativity and pushy behavior and put ourselves in a position to meet such a person.

95. Nathan 95

    Helen – I have no idea if Janice and Lisa are the same person. Somehow, I doubt it. But frankly, there is never the kind of scrutiny for more conservatively aggressive comments on here as there is for those of us who are considered to be “non-mainstream” in our views. People love commenters like Karl because he agrees with Evan enough to be non-threatening, but is also able to pick apart bs comments in a clear and sometimes entertaining way. I doubt you or many regulars on here would request the kind of proof people like I or Lisa are expected to provide, nor would there be such an attempt to slander by association with someone like Karl.

    What’s my point? You are picking favorites, instead of directly addressing Lisa’s comments. Which is easy to do when you are part of the majority. There is nothing to lose, and nothing to prove. That is,of course, until the table are turned and few like what you have to say.

96. Evan Marc Katz 96

    @Nathan – I agree that questioning Janice/Lisa’s identity is quite a stretch and can be perceived as insulting. But, to be clear, both women came on here and largely misrepresented my advice as well as that of some commenters. Because of this willing misrepresentation, their comments have been deservedly scrutinized and punctured by Karl and Helen, among others. Some people are fair fighters – you are usually among them. But everyone here knows when someone has come in to act as an agitator. It’s not that we don’t take kindly to strangers; it’s that we don’t take kindly to strangers who twist a very reasonable point of view and assign it anachronistic or malicious intentions. By the way, your views are not particularly outside the mainstream and you have been treated extremely well on this website. And if you choose to proffer views that strike some as unusual or ineffective, you shouldn’t be too surprised when people disagree with you. For example, I don’t think that every person on the planet needs to get married. In fact, I think there should be far fewer marriages, between people who have similar values and long-term goals, so there are fewer divorces. And yet I feel quite strongly (as does science), that marriage is the best platform to raise children. Not cohabiting, friends with benefits, or thru a very active grandma. If I recall, you disagree with me. So be prepared for people to take you apart for this non-mainstream view. That’s how it goes on the internet, for better or worse.

    Thanks as always for your contributions. I’m going to return to enjoying my Father’s Day.

97. Nic 97

    I have been visiting this site on and off to pick up pointers on dating. I must say, I learned to look for red text box to see what Evan has to say and skip any comments with negative tone and personal attacks on them. I do however, like to read views outside the mainstream. On the other hand, commenters who have become painfully predictable, I do not bother scrolling down and reading.

98. S. 98

    “The woman with four dogs. The guy who works 80 hours a week.”

    I would like to hear about the people at extremes. The outliers. The advice for them may not work or be necessary for the majority but I care about that story about the woman with four dogs. Does she give her canine babies up for love? Does that guy sacrifice time at the job? I think these people deserve love and it’s going to be much harder for them to find it. It really is going to be a struggle for them.

    I’d like to hear their stories too. Stories are important. These peoples’ stories too, successful or not. Just once in a while.

99. Lisa 99

    Bravo, Nathan. Good point about picking favorites.

    EMK, despite the frequency of people’s visits on here, which might give one the impression that people “know” each other, we don’t really. We are all strangers to one another on here. One of the big problems of internet communications in general–a false sense of intimacy. Despite this, that you consider me a “stranger” and others not strangers just goes to underscore the points that others have made re: picking favorites and being unduly harsh with people whose ideas are different from yours. I mean, really, how is someone supposed to tell you that they find your advice off base and possibly even destructive (Fiona, Maria), or your tone insulting (same as you feel free to them)? They can’t. So that’s when people start talking about democracy or censorship or whatever variety of words they use to describe the phenomenom. But we all blog a lot and so we get it–it’s your blog. And yes, most people will leave one site and go to other sites and services that suit them better, and some people will try to get through to you first and then leave. We all will leave. Not a big deal for us. We don’t make our living reading blogs.

    Helen, many times when someone expresses an idea about dating or relationship that differs from the status quo on here someone (EMK, Karl, other regulars) will ask them why they’re on the site. So it seems to be a legitimate question that people ask of others when their motivation for being here seems at odds with what the site says it’s about. I do think it odd that people who profess to have their relationship life all sewed up would be going on a dating site. But maybe you’re having trouble in your relationship and so things you read here about how to find the one are helpful to you. Neither you nor Karl ever shares how this site helps you with your commitment relationships, but you are both quick to tell other people what they should be doing in their dating relationships, and you both seem to spend a lot of your time on this blog, so to me the question re: motivation is legitimate and still remains open.

100. Evan Marc Katz 100

     @S – The woman with 4 dogs or the guy who works 80 hours a week – like everyone else in the world – has two choices: adjust or keep on going.

     If they adjust in some way, thereby creating more time/room for love, I predict that they will have both an easier time meeting, connecting with, and maintaining a good relationship.

     If they do not adjust – if they say, “this is who I am, and I’m not changing for anybody”, they are going to have an objectively harder time, meeting, connecting with and maintaining a relationship.

     If they do find relationships, they will not necessarily be of the same quality because so many compromises have to be made to partner up with such a person. Thus, about the ONLY people who are suitable to them are their clones, who also have a kennel at home or a job that takes them away for 30 weeks a year. But those people may be too similar and have conflict since there’s little balance in the relationship. And around and around we go.

101. Lisa 101

     Thanks for posting my last comment, EMK, and for letting it stand without commenting on it. I was pretty sure you were going to either not post it or lob a lot of anger at me for it.

     So, Helen and Karl. To phrase the “why are you on here” question in the positive: How has this blog and EMK’s advice helped you in your committed relationships? If you can give specific examples that would be much appreciated (e.g., “I had a great career but I decided to cut back when the kids came because he made more money,” etc.).

102. SS 102

     Lisa, I’ll answer your question, if you don’t mind.

     I came to this board as a single, uninvolved woman with no partner whatsoever. Then I had a boyfriend and we broke up after six months. Still stayed on the site to get advice. Then met the guy I eventually married, and during the dating process, visited this site for advice.

     Although the dating advice is no longer relevant to my life, I still enjoy coming here, seeing that I was single much longer than I’ve been married. I haven’t felt the need to leave the site just because I’m no longer dating, and I also find that the stories here confirm advice I give my single-and-still-dating friends. A lot of my friends are still never-married and dating (and they’re mid-30s), so the advice here is relevant to them — either for me to send on to them or for me to communicate if they ask me directly for advice.

     So even if Evan’s advice is no longer relevant to my situation (and I disagree with him on quite a few things — but like his general principles about dating), it doesn’t mean I should leave a site that I grew to enjoy during my dating years. Sometimes too, I like to share how certain advice Evan gave did work for me.

103. S. 103

     Wow, Evan you are fast! Thank you for responding.

     But wow. So the people who are outliers have to adjust or they are going to have a harder time forming and maintaining relationships? That seems kind of gloomy. I understand that there has to be some compromise on both peoples’ part to be in a relationship. Yet, I don’t know if I believe having four dogs necessarily means the woman has to find a man with multiple dogs too, and even if she does their relationship may be out of balance because of that shared interest. It might be that they have that in common, but hey, she moves herself and her dogs to where he lives. She may be willing to compromise in other ways. The 80-hour work week guy may have a plan where he doesn’t do this forever, just for two more years. It’s not always binary, as I’ve learned from reading your blog. Just because someone is finding it difficult to compromise on one thing, doesn’t necessarily mean they have little or no compromise in them.

     We all have to pick our battles. With Victoria, it’s Austin now or not Austin now. Sometimes one does just have to choose. That said, I believe people have a great capacity for change. Men and women. But only when they are *ready* to change. No one can force a woman to change (sometimes not even herself!) and the same is true for a man. It is hard work to try and adjust in order to have a relationship. And I’d still like to hear stories about that hard work. (Victoria, I’d love to hear what you ultimately chose and how you made that decision.) I want to know how people found love both ways. By adjusting or holding out. I can learn from both.

     I know some couples who do have shared interests and while it seems boring to me it works for them. I don’t know if they would be the ONLY match for each other but I’ll keep thinking about that. Maybe. Your words are definitely food for thought.

104. Evan Marc Katz 104

     I completely agree, S. It’s not binary at all. Unfortunately, as an advice giver, I can’t address every issue from every angle and account for every exception in the process. So I come down on the side of the majority – what do most men do, what do most women do, etc. I’ll be the first to acknowledge that one size does not fit all – I just do my best to give advice that fits the most people. Does that make sense?

105. Lisa 105

     Hi, S@103: Thanks for the response. If your friends are asking you for advice then you are probably a sympathetic person who is genuinely interested in listening to them and helping them. Just curious (no attack here)–why are you acting as middle man rather than sending them directly to EMK’s site or recommending his coaching services? Seems like that would be a win for everybody.

     Related thoughts: When you’re dating you’re in a vulnerable state. You’re looking for something you don’t have. The issues are deep, and the choices have far-reaching consequences for all of your life. This is heavy stuff that requires lots of soul searching. Finding and choosing a life partner is a highly individual, personalized process. While communication tips and eCupid stats about what everyone else is doing and cute-meet-rom-com stories might be interesting and entertaining, at the end of the day what we’re talking about is something that isn’t so superficial. Unless, of course, one is interested in a superficial marriage.

     I can’t speak for nathan, but I suspect that he and I would agree that we have no interest in a superficial marriage. I’d say that the more one is aware of one’s emotional and spiritual depth the more personal and individual ALL of one’s relationships become. Yes, you know hwo to get the Wall St job. Yes, you know how to act on a date to keep a guy interested in you. Yes, you know how to get to a commitment. Yes, you know you can be the trophy wife. Yes, you know how to get pregnant and where to send your kids to grade school so they can go to an IL school and get a Wall St job or be a trophy wife etc. In other words, you know how to play the game.

     Thing is, you just don’t want to. Because you don’t want that.

106. Lisa 106

     EMK104: yes, makes a lot of sense. glad you put that out there. for reasons stated in my last post.

107. Evan Marc Katz 107

     Thanks, Lisa. For what it’s worth, we have very different views on “the game”.

     In my book, you’re empowered if you learn how to play. It’s not a game. It’s life. We can pretend that the “right” relationship doesn’t require any self-awareness about what works, but that’s not true.

     If a man is too shy to talk to women, he needs to learn how to have confidence.

     If a woman is fearful about being cheated on, she needs to learn how to leave her pain at home.

     If a man is too aggressive about sex, he needs to learn to understand women’s pacing and needs.

     If a woman wants to know if a man is her husband on Date 1, she needs to learn to understand men’s pacing and needs.

     If you opt out of this knowledge, you’re likely handicapping your chances of finding love. I don’t judge you for that.

     But any woman who reads my advice is going to be much closer to finding love than any woman who dismisses it as a game.

     There are people of varying skill sets in the world. The most powerful people are the ones who have the greatest skills and greatest options. You can say you want to be a CEO, but if you don’t play “the game” of learning to work as a team, become a better leader or writing a resume to get in the door, your dream is going nowhere fast.

     I don’t harbor resentment towards people who opt not to “play”, but I don’t understand why there’d be resentment to people who have failed and want to know what they can do better.

108. SS 108

     “Just curious (no attack here)–why are you acting as middle man rather than sending them directly to EMK’s site or recommending his coaching services?”

     @Lisa 105… probably because at the specific times I’m being asked a question, my friend is wondering what I would do (or what I did with my dates) in a particular situation, and not necessarily seeking to have me answer by sending them to a website. I do recommend this site and others when my friends and I are talking about dating, but more in a “Hey, this person has good advice, you should read his her/site” kind of way. It’s up to my friends to decide whether or not they want to do that.

     I also don’t think everyone is really in the place in which they truly would benefit from dating coach (EMK’s or anyone else’s). I can say from personal experience that one can say that he or she is tired and frustrated with the current dating market, but if he or she continues to perform the same actions and expect different results, all the websites and dating coaches in the world won’t help them. I know a few people who’ve been seeing the same shrink for 10+ years, multiple times per month, and they’re STILL caught up in the same issues they were 10 years ago. If those people ask me for advice, I’ll share my thoughts, but I know they aren’t truly “ready” to listen because they continue on the same path and then wonder why they aren’t finding the right person.

     But in general, I can recommend a dating site or a coach like EMK, but I don’t think it does much good to answer a direct advice question from a friend by saying, “Oh, just go to EMK’s site and the answers are all there.” She wants to hear my point of view as a woman and wonder how I might have handled a situation similar to what she’s in now.

109. Mia 109

     Lisa — I disagree with a third to half of what Evan says, but I give the guy respect for being one of the few daring advisors who does NOT advocate games. A lot of his advice is common sense and tough love, rather than “strategies.”

     Second, there are all kinds of people who find love who would appear not to have a large, mainstream dating pool available to them. I know four fat girls with pushy personalities that are engaged. I know an unattractive black lesbian who found love in a mostly white state (not even online!). I have a former friend who got married in NYC – the toughest place for dating in the world – who is conventionally unattractive and is so controlling and pushy that none of us could stand to be around her for more than an hour. I know a super annoying woman with a buzzcut and glasses and thick middle who is happily married. So no, you don’t have to play the game to find love , apparently.

110. S. 110

     Evan, I’m glad we agree. I sometimes struggle to understand your advice so I’m glad to understand it a bit here. I don’t always get it but I know there is some truth there. That’s the easy part. What I decide to do or not do with that truth is a whole other ball of wax.

     I understand how you’re giving advice. I started out life as an elementary school teacher. One of the oft-repeated pieces of advice my first year was ‘teach to the middle’ because it met general needs. In a class of thirty students, trying to meet everyone’s individual needs can be difficult. So I appreciate where you’re coming from.

     But I did, and do, still feel bad about students who were at the top or at the bottom in terms of achievement in my classroom back then. I did my best to meet their specific needs, but I often felt I failed with those who needed my help the most.

     I will say one thing. I have this feeling you will have a long and successful career in this field and if you want to, I think you could find a way (maybe not on this blog but someday perhaps) to help those folks who are outliers. They need your help, and yes, and their situations are difficult. The difficult students usually require much more effort but it’s much more rewarding when they finally succeed.

     And I’ll admit, I’m one of those difficult students here on your blog so that’s why I do long to hear their stories of success too. I struggle a lot with your advice. Not because I don’t think it’s good advice. Because I just don’t always like it. That’s not about you personally. You are just speaking your truth and I respect that. But it still is a challenge to understand it all and somehow mesh it with my truth. Sometimes, like today, it works. Other times, it doesn’t mesh with my experience or the experience of those closest to me at all.

     I don’t resent anyone who finds success with finding love in any way. Love is too precious and wonderful for me to harbor any ill to someone who is happy. But, I will admit I am quite mystified most of the time. Internalizing how men think and what they really want is similar to learning a new language in middle age. A language that may have always been around me but I never became truly fluent in. It’s quite difficult. Doesn’t mean I won’t ever learn it, but it may never come as natural as my native tongue. I do admire those who are supple and well-versed in the language of both sexes. But it will be a struggle for me.

     I don’t have four dogs or work 80-hour weeks, though. There is that. And I believe there is always hope. For everyone.

111. Victoria 111

     All,

     I wanted to write to let you know of my decision regarding my question in the OP. Evan’s advice, and the thoughtful input of many of the commenters, helped me distill my complex thoughts into two clear options: choose a good job in a nice city with a man I love (and who loves me), or choose a good job in a great city as a single gal (who will date and fall in love again). These were both great options, but for me my preference quickly became clear. In my experience, so much of our happiness relies on the relationships we build and the people we share our lives with, and less of our happiness is dictated by geographic locale. I am happy in my current city. I have wonderful friends here, and a really wonderful man in my life. So, I choose to stay.

     In the end, my decision isn’t just about choosing a man or a city. It’s about choosing my current life or choosing to start a new one. My current life is pretty great, and I’m going to live it blissfully for as long as I can, with no regrets.

     Thanks again for all your help, Evan. I’ll keep reading!

     Best,

     Victoria

112. Lisa 112

     I used to read this blog at the time when Honey and Lance were on here. I liked the way that they offered a view into relationship lifestyles that were not my way, and I respected them a lot. After they left I wasn’t reading for awhile but returned in May, maybe. I was really shocked at how anyone who offers an alternative view to the marriage/kids scenario or who has a negative reaction to stereotypical female roles gets booted off the site or attacked. These are usually the people whose POV I agree with—e.g., Fiona, Maria, Nathan, Janice, etc.

     In light of this hostility toward the “alternative” folks, of late I’ve only scanned through the posts to see where someone is coming from and only read in their entirety comments from the alternatives. Some people’s comments I just don’t read at all because it’s just the same drum beat over and over and over. And I tune out anyone who starts talking about how smart or rational they are, how attractive they are to the opposite sex, how successful they are in relationship, how they know better what other people should do because, from their lofty perch, they know so much more.

     Just for the record, lest you accuse me of something not true: I come from a “stable” home with two always-married parents. We lived in a 4-bedroom house in a lovely suburb. I have a masters degree from an Ivy-equivalent school. I make $145,000 per year. I’m a cute red-head. I am always in a relationship or being courted. I come from a big family and have changed more than my share of diapers and as a teenager spent countless hours babysitting. I have 13 nieces and nephews whom I adore. Two wealthy men have proposed to me and offered the traditional marriage/kids scenario. I said no.

     Why? I. Don’t. Want. That. Life.

     The point: More and more people today don’t want the so-called “traditional” lifestyle. Even people in my demographic, the ones who can have it quite easily. This does not mean that we are histrionic, or man-hating, or difficult, or naïve, or not getting it. We are the ones who are creating new forms of relationship. We’re the ones who are changing the world. Maybe you can open your minds to this.

113. Evan Marc Katz 113

     @Lisa:

     No one is hostile to “alternative” folks.

     We simply a) don’t know what you want and b) don’t know why you’re so hostile to logical, scientific, reasonable experienced advice about how to choose a partner for a successful long-term relationship.

     If you don’t want one of those – and would prefer to pour yourself into work, travel, friends, self-improvement, freedom and the occasional passionate love affair – that’s perfectly fine by me and everyone here. But why are you reading a blog about dating and relationships?

     In short, you come into my house to question me when I don’t give advice for people like you. No hard feelings. I guess I just don’t get it.

     More importantly: congratulations to Victoria for coming to a peaceful decision about what was most important to you. We all wish you the best.

114. Goldie 114

     @ Lisa, I’ve only been reading this blog for about two years, so don’t go as far back as you do. But, in my short time on here, this blog has come across to me as a dating-advice blog, where people who: a)want what you call “the traditional lifestyle”, b)don’t have it all together the way you do (145K/year and all that), — come for advice on dating that would, ultimately, lead to them living the “traditional lifestyle”, which is what they happen to want for themselves. Are you saying that they shouldn’t be doing it? that it’s offensive to others and that they should stop asking questions and commenting on this blog? What exactly are these people doing wrong by coming to a dating-advice blog for dating advice? I honestly do not get it.

     As for Janice, Fiona, and Maria. I’ve read all three of their original posts, including the one (#51) Janice posted on this thread, and there’s a term for this stuff — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

     In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

     Janice’s #51, for one, offered no advice or feedback to the OP, contributed nothing to the discussion, hijacked the entire thread, contained incorrect information not supported by any type of proof, and could basically be boiled down to “you all suck”. Classic trolling. It has nothing to do with having a dissenting opinion, wanting to enlighten the readers, or anything of that kind. Same goes for Fiona’s post, which, if I remember it correctly, contained personal insults. Ideally, if everyone would just refuse to feed the trolls and not reply to anything that is inflammatory and off-topic, it would go a long way towards making this blog’s comment section a more informative, better read. I’m as guilty as anyone, and admit that I should show more restraint and learn to ignore this kind of posts when they appear.

     I have no idea how Nathan got to be on this list of yours. I always enjoy his posts.

     I’m mostly writing this for the benefit of other commenters, since it follows from what you’ve just written that you’re not going to read my post. (An interesting way of having a discussion, but hey, who am I to judge.)

     @ Victoria — sorry about the mess your thread has turned into, and thanks for the update! Sounds like your decision has been well thought out, and makes a lot of sense. Good luck!

115. Helen 115

     Victoria: best wishes with your future. The way you tell your story now makes it sound much more comfortable – the fact that you have close friends in your current town, and that you are otherwise happy there. If it were just for the sake of one boyfriend of 5 months that you were staying, which is what it had seemed from the OP (my misinterpretation), the situation would have been more iffy. Good luck to you.

     Goldie and Evan: agreed.

116. Lisa 116

     Goldie@114: My list was of people whose posts call out stereotypically sexist ideas of either single women or of dating relationships. Which is why Nathan is on that list, and he’s the one who introducted the word “alternative” to this thread, not me. It isn’t a list of trolls, in my view. According to your definition of trolls there are a lot of them on here, on both sides of the “traditional relationship” divide. But as Nathan pointed out above, only the non-traditional people ever get taken to task about it. And Nathan has gotten “blowback” (his word) from that corner, too.

     What I’m saying is that this is a dating blog, if I am reading the homepage correctly, which I think I am. So why is it such a surprise that people who are dating, as I am, come here to read it. Why is it such a surprise that people in this modern day and age date for a variety of reasons, only one of which is to find a traditional marriage. Why is it such a surprise that a lot of people date WITHOUT the intention of finding a traditional marriage with children. Why is it such a surprise that people who come to a dating site thinking that they are participating in a discussion forum for people who are actually dating might take umbrage at getting batted around by a bunch of married people who ARE NOT EVEN DATING ANYMORE.

     What’s offensive is the assumption that we all want the same thing from dating and the weird insults that get thrown at anyone who even suggests that they have a different POV re: dating and relationship.

     But hey–it’s EMK’s blog. If he wants it to be about dating with the express purpose of having a traditional marriage with children, that’s his prerogative, of course. If that were spelled out more clearly then a lot of folks would bypass the site altogether and go where our views and issues are better understood and more sypathetically addressed.

117. Helen 117

     #116: could a comment be more full of strawmen?
      
     “why is it such a surprise that people who are dating, as I am, come here to read it” – No one is surprised that people who are dating come to Evan’s site.
      
     “hy is it such a surprise that people in this modern day and age date for a variety of reasons, only one of which is to find a traditional marriage” – No one is surprised that people date for a variety of reasons. No one is surprised that not everyone wants marriage. Unless her mind has changed, Goldie has stated herself that she doesn’t want to get married again. Yet she is welcomed here.
      
     “Why is it such a surprise that a lot of people date WITHOUT the intention of finding a traditional marriage with children” – No one is surprised that some people don’t want children. Karl R has said himself he doesn’t want children.
      
     “What’s offensive is the assumption that we all want the same thing from dating” – No one is assuming that everyone wants the same thing from dating.
      
     “But hey–it’s EMK’s blog. If he wants it to be about dating with the express purpose of having a traditional marriage with children, that’s his prerogative, of course.” – There are many commenters benefiting from Evan’s blog, whom he welcomes even if they don’t want marriage or children.
      
     What is the point of trying to throw out these ideas to “argue”? They come out of absolutely nowhere.  We don’t care that you may not want traditional things. In fact, the things you seem to want are exactly the same things Goldie and Karl R want.  Rather, we take objection to the fact that your “arguments” seem to be flailing around with no logical underpinning and no connection to the OP.

118. Ruby 118

     Lisa #116

     I post here often, and I’d consider myself atypical, as well. I’m middle-aged, never-married, no kids (never really wanted them). I’m from a stable home, well-educated, independent, etc. But I would like to be in a healthy, serious relationship. The non-traditional view of relationships doesn’t surprise me at all – I’ve been living it for years. But I acknowledge that most people still want marriage and kids.

     So as much as I might not always like it, dating behaviors are still fairly mired in tradition. Some of the comments from (mostly) some of the men are annoying, but that’s part of why I post, as well, to offer an alternative view.

     As someone who made loads of dating mistakes when I was younger, I have gotten a lot of benefit from the dating advice I’ve read, here and elsewhere. I don’t agree with every word, but overall, it has helped me greatly. In fact, I’ve recently started a relationship that may well turn out to be the best I’ve ever been in, and I’m not in a favored demographic. When so many women in my age-range are having trouble finding partners, I think it also gives other women hope to hear that.

     Actually, another frequent poster, Karl R, is atypical too. He started posting as a single guy who didn’t want kids, and is now engaged to a much older woman.

     Oh, and my best to Victoria, BTW!

119. Goldie 119

     @ Lisa #116
      
     First of all, that wasn’t my definition. I copied it from Wikipedia. Though I agree that I’ve seen (and responded to) trolls on both sides. 
      
     “Why is it such a surprise that a lot of people date WITHOUT the intention of finding a traditional marriage with children.”
      
     So what’s the intention then? I’ve read all the alternatives’ posts and I still don’t know. (other than the childfree part,) Like Evan said, how can he advise you guys if he doesn’t know what you want? I have to admit I’m curious now.
      
     “What’s offensive is the assumption that we all want the same thing from dating”
      
     Exactly! So, if that’s offensive, then why all the “calling out” of people who don’t want the same thing from dating as you do? I haven’t seen anyone attack the “alternatives” on here without having been provoked first. I keep saying it on this blog… if a person doesn’t want to be a parent. they don’t have to be a parent. If they don’t want to date a parent, they don’t have to date a parent. Now, can this be done without putting all parents down and calling them lazy slobs, irresponsible partners and such, or is this too much to ask? And as for Nathan, I love the man to death, but he got his “blowback” in return for telling parents what they’re doing wrong with their lives. If I decide to give him advice of this kind, I’d expect a gentle blowback of some sort, too!
      
     I have a confession to make. I once dated a single dad with three kids, one of them in kindergarten and the other two special-needs. Even though I enjoyed being with the guy, and was very attracted to him, I broke it off after he became a full-time father, because that would’ve been too much for me to handle. Not because he’s a bad person for being a dad, being a single dad, having young kids, or having special-needs kids, but because I, personally, could not pull it off without putting a ton of pressure on myself and my own family. (But just because I couldn’t date him, doesn’t mean many other women wouldn’t be willing to.) So I absolutely see where you guys are coming from when you don’t want to date people like me or him. I just don’t see it as something he or I should be ashamed of.
      

120. Tom 120

     Glad to see you made your decision Victoria, I hope it works out well for you.

     Lisa,
     Like you I also have an ‘alternative’ goal in dating; I don’t particularly aspire to the whole marriage set-up either. I actually find committing to just one person for a few years is bizarre never mind for a whole life-time! I see life as a big party which I hope to enjoy as much as possible so I only have casual relationships. I also got some heat for my views; however, I enjoy robust debate and even pointed criticism as long as it’s constructive and fair. I originally came to the blog for the slightly Machiavellian purpose of gaining a deeper insight into the female psyche to further my own ends. What I found actually slightly dismayed me; I wasn’t expecting so many women to despair of the dating process so much and be so emotionally vulnerable. As a result of Ruby’s suggestion now I subtly hint to women at the beginning that I’m not looking for anything too serious.

     I enjoy reading opinions from the various ends of the dating spectrum, from yourself to Zaq, and I think everyone has a contribution to make, whether they are single / married etc. I think regular posters such as Helen, Ruby and Nathan are consistently reasonable and fair and I always enjoy Karl’s analytical approach to breaking down arguments.

     About the general tone of the blog, I sometimes sense an air of exasperation and frustration from many of the women about what they view as antiquated advice given here about what men like. Although this is understandable it is ultimately futile. I was raised by an educated woman who ran her own business and I am very close to my sisters, nieces and female friends, and yet I still want a nymphomaniac model who’s also a cook. I.e. Men will be men no matter how society changes.

     That’s why Evan’s advice is so useful; he explains how most men think even if it’s unpalatable. If a female blogger did the equivalent and taught men how to pick up women she’d make a fortune!

121. Crystal 121

     This post reminds me of myself 9 years ago, but imagine me as the guy who made the opposite choice. I had been accepted to grad school as I was finishing my BS, just as my military boyfriend had been assigned to another state. Instead of breaking up or trying the long-distance thing, he asked me to marry him. I said yes and *FOLLOWED HIM*. I tried not to ignore my own goal of getting my PhD, but it is difficult to achieve your own career goals if your husband moves around.

     After 8 years of marriage we divorced. I can look at it from 2 perspectives: A) If I would have said “No” and stayed, I could already have had my PhD years ago, and be making good money on my own. I don’t know if I would be in a happy relationship right now, but I will say that I’m back here in the dating world, not happily married anymore. And I find myself thinking, from now on I won’t ever give up my goals for a man again.
     B) On a brighter side, I did have several years of being happily married and being in love. Those are wonderful memories, despite that it didn’t last. Now I’m well on my way to getting my PhD. Sure I’m way behind on my career plan, but I can say that I’ve been in love, led a happy life, met lots of people and gained experience that will contribute to my career. I’m learning from my mistakes and I know I’ll fall in love again if I’m open to it. So…from this perspective, I’m happy regardless of what I’ve lost.

     So, basically, Make your choice and DON’T LOOK BACK! Give 100% to your choice and be awesome at your career wherever you are. Be objective about this guy (because you can’t deny there are some potential red flags in how he reacted). And if it doesn’t work out, then make your next move. If you’re awesome at your job and keep a positive perspective, there will always be opportunities wherever you go! Good luck Victoria:)

122. Emily 122

     I felt the need to respond to this topic because this happened to me, only in reverse.  My boyfriend told me he received a job offer in a big city after we had been together for nearly 4 months.  This came as quite a shock to me because we were getting very serious, talking about marriage and our future together.  I was very upset because to me I really think he only chose to look for jobs in the big city because his current roommate was going there and he wouldn’t have to look for a new roommate or new place to live and he would have a built in friend in the new city.

     To state the facts, his new job offered less pay but a little more opportunity and his current job was not making him happy.   Everything in my life was great, and it wasn’t in my plans to move away from my friends and family.  He was willing to consider a long distance relationship and I wasn’t.

     In the end, he moved and we broke up.  I felt like his decision was made when he applied for the job without telling me about it or including me in his plans (which you aren’t doing in your situation).  He actually regretted his decision and became extremely unhappy wanting me back but stuck in his new city and miserable new job with few friends and far from family.  I think sometimes it’s great if you move for your career, but you have to know what is going to make you happier.  Would you regret leaving someone you love and may never find again? 

     My advice, is that if the job is equal in pay and opportunity that you stay a little longer where you are and see where your relationship goes.  I think jobs come and go, but relationships are much harder to find especially the older you get.  Ultimately you may decide the relationship isn’t what you want or need and end up looking for a job in Austin then, but it sounds to me like it would be worth staying to find out.

123. Rhiann 123

     Hi Evan,

     This blog came @ a timing where I was in a similar dilemma as Victoria. Mine is not as major as to relocate. Instead, it is a career advancement where I will be assigned or posted to work overseas, an opportunity I had always wanted.

     Little did I expect that such an ambition was objected strongly by my boyfriend. To be honest, I was shocked at his respond. I was upset and blamed him (inside my heart) that he was stopping me for being successful in my career. He was not being supportive of my goal and there was no room for discussion. He was being pushy… … I can continue with all the negativity. Guess, I put a stop here.

     Your words “Men want to choose. We don’t want to be sold.” AND ”But, to be very clear as you sort through your turmoil: it’s not your boyfriend who is choosing his current city over you; you’re choosing Austin over him.” had brought some sense to me. 

     Yes. I appreciate my boyfriend who is man enough to “confront” me, to voice out his concern, to let me know his limits. ”it’s not my boyfriend who is choosing his emtional needs over me, I’m choosing my career over him.” In fact, for a period of time, I was hesitant about choosing between my career & him. I was wondering if we are compatible in the long-run. Is my career advancement more important than my relationship with him?

     I’m glad that I had not make decision on impulse. I had given time to assess my relationship. And, thank goodness, I read this blog. He has given me the kind of relationship I yearned for, making a little sacrifices on my part isn’t too much to ask for. Grass may not necessary or always greener at the other side.

     Maybe there will be readers who beg to differ or view negatively about it.  I’m proud to say that I finally know exactly what I want.

124. Rhiann 124

     To add to Emily’s.

     Nothing beats being with the one you love and the ones who love you, than to fight a lonesome battle in a foreign land

125. Victoria 125

     I’m not sure whether anyone reads the comments to posts months after the posts are published, but I wanted to give any interested parties an update on the OP.  I am the original Victoria.

     As you know, I was trying to chose whether to move to Austin to take a new job, or to stay at my current job in my current city with my boyfriend.  My boyfriend was not in an easy position to make the move with me, and our relationship felt a little too new to be asking one of us to move across the country for the other.  In the end, I chose to stay in my current city, choosing the great life and the great man I already had over starting a new life.  

     Less than a month after I made that choice, my boyfriend asked if we could move in together and start planning our shared future.  About a week after that (I am a slow decision maker), I told him that I thought it was a great idea.  We spent the next few months plotting our big move, researching neighborhoods, and apartment hunting.  We moved in together at the end of September.  The move is still new, but things are wonderful so far.  Looking back now, I can’t imagine making any other choice than the one I made in June.  I have learned that sometimes we are tempted to choose change for the sake of change, but that sometimes its worthwhile to let yourself stand still for a moment to see whether the life you have needs any changing at all.  For me, it was worthwhile 10 times over.

     Evan, thanks again for helping me understand what my choices were and how to evaluate them.  I am one happy woman.

     All the best,

     Victoria

      

126. Karl R 126

     Lisa asked: (#101)
     “So, Helen and Karl. To phrase the ‘why are you on here’ question in the positive: How has this blog and EMK’s advice helped you in your committed relationships?”

     As Ruby implied (#118), it helped me get my committed relationship.

     In addition, as the relationship progressed, it provided an easy way to bring up relationship topics with my girlfriend/fiancée/wife. I just bring up topics that are being discussed on the blog and ask her opinion.

127. Joe 127

     Goldie #114:

     “this blog has come across to me as a dating-advice blog, where…people who don’t have it all together…come for advice on dating”

     But isn’t this the opposite of “smart, strong, successful?”

128. Goldie 128

     @ Joe: um, I’m confused. Why did you pick apart my post from a few months ago, throw some random words together, and now want to argue about it? What purpose does it serve? I’ve scrolled up to read the original discussion and it appears that Helen has already given a comprehensive answer on its subject in #117. 
      
     Anyway, if one is so smart, strong and successful that they don’t need anyone’s advice on anything at all, then they won’t come to this blog, much less post on it. So if that’s the kind of smart, strong and successful you were looking for, then I’m afraid you’re in the wrong place, sorry

129. Karl R 129

     Goldie, (#128)
     Are you awake today? You’re missing the completely obvious response.

     It’s highly probable (based on the spelling of the name) that Joe is the opposite of a woman.

130. Helen 130

     Karl R: Ha ha ha!  Great response.

     More to the point, Evan’s blog welcomes those who are opposites: smart and not-so-smart, strong and weak, successful and unsuccessful, women and men.

     Congratulations on your marriage, by the way.

     And Victoria 125: congratulations on your relationship progress, and for making things work beautifully from where you are.

131. starthrower68 131

     I think Victoria made a courageous decision.  While it certainly is correct that she could not expect her BF to move with her, and nothing is 100% certain, to me, taking the job in Austin would have seemed more certain than staying in hopes the relationship would become committed.  I hope it continues to go well for her.

132. Joe 132

     @ Goldie?  Random?

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