I Keep Scaring Guys Away. What Am I Doing Wrong?

Evan,

I’ve tried going after guys I’m attracted to even if I don’t really know them. For instance, there was this guy in the gym. I guess I creeped him out. I don’t know why… maybe he found me unattractive… who knows? But I kept trying to talk to him and he would run away because we were on the running track. He was kind of a jerk and then I caught him near the barbells where the men work out and I said “Hey,” he seemed like he was nice because he smiled at me, took off his headphones and said “What’s up?” I asked him why he was running away from me. He didn’t give me a direct answer but he said “I can talk to you 20 minutes from now” with a smile and he said he was going to work out… Well, he ended up ditching me. He had me wait an entire hour and then he quickly walked past me without looking back at me.

Now I’m wondering… what did I do wrong? Was there something different I could have done when approaching him? Is he just a jerk (probably)? Next time I see him, should I talk to him again?

Also, I want to talk to this guy at my Church but I’ve had so many rejections that I’m wondering if I should even talk to this guy or if I will scare him away too. I’m not really confident that he will like me.
–Ashley

Ashley,

Stop being a guy.

Since third grade, boys are taught that if they like a girl, they have to ask her out.

Before you get defensive – or before any women get on my case for invoking more gender stereotypes, let’s establish that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Since third grade, boys are taught that if they like a girl, they have to ask her out. Or pull her hair. Or something like that.

It never ceases to be nerve wracking, but that, in fact, is the way a vast majority of the dating world works.

Man sees attractive woman, gets the nerve to talk to her, they have a nice conversation, he asks for her number, calls her, plans the date, picks her up, pays, drives her home, kisses her goodnight, and calls the next day to see if they can do it all over again.

I don’t see much room for disagreement with this one.

That doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for women to approach men, ask out men, offer sex to men, or propose to men; it’s just that it seems that most men and women are comfortable with these gender roles. And when they’re undermined, many people get a little ruffled.

Don’t women get upset when men don’t call after a date?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t pay?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t make plans?
Don’t women get upset when men don’t make the first move?

If so, you’re buying into these same stereotypes of what we expect from men.

As for what men expect from women?

We just want you to say yes.

Say yes to talking to us at the gym.
Say yes to agreeing to drinks on Friday.
Say yes when I insist on paying.
Say yes when I try to kiss you.
Say yes when I follow up for a second date.

This is the core message of my book, Why He Disappeared. It’s not that you’re “wrong” to approach men the way you have, Ashley. It’s that it hasn’t been proven to be particularly effective.

So why keep doing something that isn’t working for you?

Men do what we want – most of the time. There’s always going to be some guy who’s too shy to say hi or ask for your number, but most women don’t want a man with that little confidence anyway.

Your job is simply to put yourself in the position to be approached.

Cross the room near him. Plant yourself within eyeshot of him. Turn. Smile. Make eye contact. Look away. Flip your hair. You’re essentially giving him every opening to approach YOU. If he does, then YOU’RE in control. If he doesn’t, he’s not interested.

Simple.

And if you really, really want to keep on approaching guys, click here, and scroll down to read Samantha Scholfield’s Screw Cupid which teaches women how to approach hot guys. For the more laid back system, which involves getting men to come to you, I’ve heard that Mama Gena’s School of Womanly Arts is a good read.

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122 Comments »Filed Under Flirting

122 Responses to “I Keep Scaring Guys Away. What Am I Doing Wrong?”

Robin Cockrell 1

Next time you see him, no don’t talk to him again. You already showed interests and he knows you are interested, trust me. To continue to shower him with attention may make you appear desperate. Not attractive at all. I agree with Evan, let him come after you. If he doesn’t, he just isn’t interested. Next is what I say.
Saint Stephen 2

Evan, said it best . I wouldn’t subtract anything even if i was offered money.
Ashley, don’t sweat it. If he’s not approaching you, a primary reason could be that he already has a girlfriend and don’t feel like getting your hopes high only to smash it against the wall. If you like a guy, go around him frequently to the point where he has no choice but to notice you. That’s what i’ll recommend you doing with the church guy. E.g, if he’s in the choir, join the choir, (even though you have not the slightest interest in singing). Your job is to make him notice you and he’ll take it from there. I wish you good luck in all your dating endeavors!
@Evan, fwiw, there isn’t any link attached to the “click here” you wrote. I dunno, but maybe that’s how you wanted it.
Goldie 3

I think the situation described in Ashley’s letter has less to do with following gender roles than it has to do with (sorry to be blunt, this is really the best wording I could come up with) not annoying people or creeping them out. The guy probably came into the gym to work out. He paid money for his membership and, if he’s like most of us, the amount of time that he can spend at the gym is limited. For all we know he may be training for a race that’s important to him. He wanted to run, not make small talk. Further, “why are you running away from me” is not the best pickup line, not by a long shot. Even though I am a woman, and men, by the rules, should be approaching me, I have to say that if a guy tried to talk to me when I’m working out, and/or used “why are you running away from me?” as conversation opener, this guy would probably get nowhere with me. Also, Ashley says that the guy said he’d talk to her in 20 minutes, and she waited for him three times that. That may come across as stalkerish. Again, with roles reversed, if I decided to ditch the guy by telling him I’d talk to him in 20 (not that I would), I’d expect him to get the message after, I don’t know, 30 minutes? If I still saw him waiting for me after an hour, I’d probably look for a security guard to walk me to my car, because I’d be pretty scared at that point!

Bottom line, there are more subtle ways to show the man you’re interested. I never thought I’d recommend the Rules book to anyone, because I seriously do not like it, but it has a lot of techniques that Ashley may benefit from. I’d check out Evan’s links as well.
Steve 4

Ashley wrote: I’ve tried going after guys I’m attracted to even if I don’t really know them. For instance, there was this guy in the gym. I guess I creeped him out. I don’t know why… maybe he found me unattractive… who knows? But I kept trying to talk to him and he would run away because we were on the running track. He was kind of a jerk and then I caught him near the barbells where the men work out and I said “Hey,” he seemed like he was nice because he smiled at me, took off his headphones and said “What’s up?” I asked him why he was running away from me. He didn’t give me a direct answer but he said “I can talk to you 20 minutes from now” with a smile and he said he was going to work out… Well, he ended up ditching me. He had me wait an entire hour and then he quickly walked past me without looking back at me.

Ashely, I have to apologize for feeling some vicarious satisfaction when reading
your quote. I ( and many men ) have had your experience many times
throughout my life. I enjoyed reading about it happening to a woman.
My apologies for that. It DOES suck? Doesn’t it?

Women have told me that they blow men off in this manner, because they
aren’t interested and can’t think of a less awkward way of communicating
that. Some of the more patient ones will work the term “boyfriend” into
a short conversation. I think there is something to that. What were his
alternatives? Tell a stranger making harmless casual conversation something
mean like “I’m not attracted to you and I’m not in the mood to talk?”

Many men are put off by women approaching them first. Especially if it is
done in a very aggressive, masculine way. Having said that I…..and I believe
most men would be very excited if a woman we found to be VERY ATTRACTIVE
approached us. The bottom line is that he probably did not find you
to be THAT attractive.

No disrespect meant.

Your situation happens to men all of the time. We tell ourselves that it
is just their way of saying they are not interested without being mean,
that it doesn’t mean we are not desirable, it doesn’t mean we will
not be able to hookup with someone we find interesting and that we just
have to keep trying.

Happy Monday

Steve
Martha 5

She is approaching men out of her league, men are about looks first then personality. Try going for the short, fat, bald guys and she will do fine.
Karl R 6

Ashley,
If you’re going to be the pursuer, like men normally are, then you have to approach dating like a man.

First, even if you’re a very attractive woman, the majority of men will not be interested in dating you. If you’re good looking, but not drop-dead gorgeous, then you can assume that most men will not be interested in dating you.

Getting rejected is the norm. If you’re going to be the pursuer, get used to rejection.

Because of this, most men become very attuned to whether a woman is interested in them. We’re not randomly hitting on women we’re interested in. We’re are approaching women where we believe there may be a mutual attraction.

We’re never sure whether a woman is interested (until we ask), and studies show that men are overly-optimistic about whether a woman is interested (or we’d probably be far more reluctant to ask).

Ashley asked:
“Now I’m wondering… what did I do wrong? Was there something different I could of done when approaching him? Is he just a jerk (probably)?”

Have you ever been approached by a man you weren’t interested in?

Maybe you saw him staring at you, so you deliberately avoided making eye contact. Maybe you saw him approaching you, so you walked over to where one of your friends was standing. He tried to strike up a conversation, but you pretended to be to absorbed in your conversation to notice. When that didn’t work, you tried to turn him down without hurting his feelings too much.

Were you being a jerk to this clueless man whom you weren’t interested in?

Was there something he could have done differently when approaching you to get you to go out with him?

Back to your example at the gym, you switched roles and you got to be the clueless man. Based on your description, he gave you plenty of non-verbal signals of his lack of interest. You ignored them (or were oblivious) and pursued him anyway.

I don’t think he was a jerk. He was a nice guy who wasn’t interested in you. And he was trying to let you know that without being rude to your face.

If a man’s not interested (or not available), you can’t change that. Accept it and move on. As Goldie said (#3), stalking someone is just creepy.

Ashley asked:
“Also, I want to talk to this guy at my Church but I’ve had so many rejections that I’m wondering if I should even talk to this guy or if I will scare him away too.”

It’s a church. It’s perfectly acceptable to walk up to somebody and meet them.

You can walk up to him and say, “Hi. I’ve seen you around before, but I don’t believe we’ve ever met. My name’s Ashley.”

In order to extend the conversation, ask a question: “What first brought you to this church?” That’s a very normal question in a church environment.

When the conversation draws to an end, say, “I really enjoyed talking to you. I’ll see you around.”

At that point, you’ve broken the ice, and you’ve subtly invited him to come talk to you again. If he is interested, he will begin pursuing you. If he doesn’t, then don’t expect anything beyond friendly conversation. (Since you’re at a church, friendly conversation is acceptable and encouraged.)

I would not follow Saint Stephen’s suggestion (#2) of joining the choir when you have no interest in singing just to get close to him. Stalking someone is creepy.
Suzanne 7

I guess I take issue with hitting on a guy so bluntly when you don’t have a clue what he is really about. How about a smile or even casual conversation? He may very well have a girlfriend/relationship and a lot of guys are intent on honoring that but feel wimpy stating as such when women are being aggressive…versus at the gym I just say I’m seeing someone. I’m with Evan. If a guy is interested he will approach and they almost always say “lucky guy” when I tell them I’m seeing someone. My boyfriend says he feels like women hitting on him are offering cheap and easy sex and look at him like a piece of meat on the table.
andy 8

He’s not a jerk, youre the one bothering him. Hes not attracted to you plain and simple. He’s doing what woman do all the time and blowing you off since hes not interested. Take a hint.

Plus YOU made it awkward by calling him out about being avoident. He’s BUSY working out, if you wanted to be friendly just talk to him when he is taking a break. geez
Saint Stephen 9

Joining the choir to get close to him is not stalking, Karl. I know lots of men and women who joined choir just to get close to someone they liked or admired and many relationships blossomed from there. Besides the choir is a free for all, he would never know if you joined solely because of him. I know lots of folks who’s original motive of joining the choir was to expand their dating pool.
However, that was only a suggestion. For all we know he might not even be in the choir.
Ashley has already established through her letter that she’s very sensitive to rejection, hence my suggestion that she should only put herself in a position where she could be noticed and approached. By that way if he doesn’t step up she’d feel less hurt. Rather than getting shut down for a second time after summoning up tremendous courage to walk up to him and say hi! That will leave her feeling worse…
Heather 10

Ashley,

As someone who’s had guys say stuff like you’ve said to this guy, I find your approach slightly creepy. I’ve had guys say “Why won’t you text me??” when I had just started talking to them on dating websites, and hadn’t even met them yet. Hello!! Those were the guys I blocked, told off, gave them a big piece of my mind for being so weird.

You need to be a “bit” more subtle. Nowadays I don’t even bother approaching men I find attractive. I just smile at them. If they come over, fine. If not, eh. Whatever. Not my problem.

And I’m with the others, joining a choir or doing an activity just to meet them or whatever, is very creepy. If I found out a guy did that just to meet me or whatever, I’d be running for the doors.
Saint Stephen 11

Martha
I’m not attracted to you isn’t a euphemism for i’m out of your league. She could eventually end up with someone more attractive than her previous lovelorn.
Men have different tastes. Personally, I’m not really attracted to petite/thin women. I have a strong preference for heavier women, though i try to curb that preference and concede to the fact that i might not eventually end up with one.
Steve 12

@andy, post #8
You said what I was trying to say but you did it far more clearly and briefly.
Ileana 13

@Steven: I could not stop laughing when i read your sugestion with joining the choir. It so reminded me of American Pie
Androgyous 14

I’d like to pick up on the point Goldie made about Ashley picking the wrong spots to approach men. The rules with chatting men up are :
- Pick the territory. Do not pick places where men go to do non social things like the gym or work. Men go to places for specific purposes and while they are at it, are not usually open to other non task related possibilities. Pick places where men expect to engage in social interactions with women like parties or bars, preferably parties and other such social functions where you both know the host. Chit chat about mutual friends is the perfect opening. It is safe, non threatening and neutral so he can, if he wishes, gracefully bow out without being put on the spot.
- Make sure there is an existing “friendly” rapport. If you must chat up a man up at work or other similar non social places, make sure you have already established a “friendly” rapport, but not an established friendship (some men may have difficulty transitioning a woman from good platonic friend to girlfriend). Do not start off by flirting – this can be offputting in an office or non social environment. Start off with friendly banter, slowly progressing to greater initimacy and familiarity. This can be a long, protracted process and can take a lot of skill and patience. This way, you know if he is in the market and if you could be his “type”. Give plenty of “I like you” signals closer to the time of your final approach. This way, he will know to ask you out first, or at least be prepared for what is coming so as to be able to ward off an “attack” by telling you about his non existant girlfriend for instance. Men absolutely HATE to be ambushed.
- The most difficult situation to be in is where you are both in positions that are non conducive to rapport building or social get to know yous – like bus stops, supermarkets etc where your paths are unlikely to cross more than once. The strategy here is to be friendly, yet non threatening and casual. You need to be very witty or make a very smart and funny comments/observations so as to be memorable. Most of all, you cannot come across as hitting on him. You can’t expect anything out of this, but at least he will remember you as that funny, smart and cute gal whom he would consider approaching next time he ran into you. If you keep doing this, then eventually the odds will fall in your favor. You never know, there could be other men watching whom you did not initially target, but who would remember you fondly as well.
SnowdropExplodes 15

Ashley:
When guys behave the way you did towards the guy at the gym, GUYS get called creepy.
You tried once and got your answer (he carried on and ignored you), but that wasn’t enough. If the guy was interested in your cold approach then he would have stopped and talked.
I’m all in favour of women being the initiators sometimes, and I happen to think it would be better for everyone if more women would do it more often. But if you’re going to be the initiator, you need more than looks (unless all you want is a quick shag at a nightclub, and even then it’s no guarantee). You need to be able to get the other person relating to you, set them at their ease and only then push for what you want. And, as has been pointed out, you need to be ready for rejection, because even the most successful men probably flunk out 90% of the times they make a cold approach – in pickup artist circles, there’s a saying that “the first 1,000 approaches don’t count” because that’s how long it takes to figure out what works for you and in your environment. But you’ve got a head start on the men, because you can ask yourself, “How would it feel if some random bloke did this to me?” and that should help avoid creepiness like the situation you described in your letter to EMK.
Ruby 16

I think that Ashley needs to make a more concerted effort to read the signs that men are giving her, rather than just blindly throwing herself at random men. If a guy seems to be “running away”, after you’ve already tried to talk to him, why walk up to him again and ask him why he’s running away? An educated guess would imply a lack of interest. This man was polite and said he’d talk to her later (probably to get rid of her), but she waited for him for an entire hour? If you smile at a guy or try to make idle chit-chat, and he doesn’t pick up the ball, he is not interested! I wouldn’t say that Ashley is going after men who are out of her league, either – she is simply being too pushy. Every day is not Sadie Hawkins Day.
Jadafisk 17

Men who “cold call holla” women based on attractiveness alone experience an exceedingly high failure rate and a steep learning curve. As a woman, it won’t be as high nor steep based on novelty and being largely perceived as non-threatening but it will still be difficult. You have to be emotionally prepared to be evaluated on the same shallow, arbitrary basis that you’ve approved your prospect by. You may be found wanting, even if you are objectively attractive, because people have varied tastes, inclinations, habits, default emotional states and comfort levels. If you can’t deal with that, you’ll have to find dates by networking and incidental introductions like most people do. Even a 250 word blurb on a dating site can tell you more about compatibility and your odds of success than a smile and a few miles shared on a treadmill. If attractiveness is extremely important to you, find a niche, a pitch and some nerves of steel. If it’s not, then be more subtle and come as a person who’s interested in another person and has somewhat substantial reasons behind that interest as opposed to an 8 who prefers someone within the 7-9 range.
Desdenova 18

Ashley,

He’s just not that into you. It’s not that you are doing anything wrong. It’s just that he’s not that into you. Some perspective might help – how many times have you blown off men who have approached you? There’s nothing wrong with you for doing that; he just did the same thing.
And please do all us guys (and yourself) a favor, don’t cling around a jerk who isn’t interested or very respectful.
That being said, I disagree with Evan about approaching men. Some guys may be uncomfortable with this…who cares? Their loss. Besides, you are probably better off with someone who isn’t constrained by pointless gender social norms. Just understand if you approach the opposite sex, you will get blown off and you just got to accept that.
Karl R 19

St Stephen said: (#2)
“E.g, if he’s in the choir, join the choir, (even though you have not the slightest interest in singing).”
St Stephen said: (#9)
“I know lots of folks who’s original motive of joining the choir was to expand their dating pool.”

I’ll bet most of them enjoyed singing.

Participating in an activity that you enjoy (like choir), in order to meet more potential dates … that’s a normal way to do things. Even if you don’t get any dates, you’ll enjoy the activity.

Participating in an activity “even though you have not the slightest interest” in it … that’s not normal. And if you’re doing it just to put yourself in close proximity to a specific individual you’re attracted to….

Put yourself in the other person’s shoes. How would you feel if someone you weren’t attracted to did that to get your attention?

Furthermore, why spend two hours at an activity you don’t like just to get a chance to talk to someone? Walk up to them after the service and tell them that you really enjoyed the choral anthem. It’s a much better use of your time.

St Stephen said: (#9)
“Besides the choir is a free for all, he would never know if you joined solely because of him.”

The choir is the most tight-knit group in any church. Choir members spend at least 3 hours per week together. Some of the members have been part of the choir for over 20 years.

Because of that, a choir is a terrific place to meet people. It’s a lousy place to try to keep a secret.
Nicole 20

@Ashley, you should read the article from last week about that “Men Are Being Honest, You Just Aren’t Listening.”

This is a GREAT example of that.
Saint Stephen 21

Karl R, I agree that participating in an activity you don’t enjoy just to get a shot at someone you like isn’t such a good idea. But as bad it may sound that’s what a lot of us do – be it consciously or at an unconscious level. I know many women who go to watch sporting activities just to meet men. Most of these women don’t enjoy it but deem it wise to put themselves out there simply because sporting games are male dominated thereby giving them a good chance of meeting lots of decent men.
Let’s imagine all the folks who do online dating, how many of them actually enjoy such activity? I’ll guess that is pretty close to nil, yet that is something we must do to get a chance at having a love-life. Nowadays introverts are compelled to expand their social circles in other to find members of the opposite sex. It won’t be enjoyable at first but totally worth the effort in the long run.

Karl R, if you discovered that a girl you really liked was on match.com – I’ll wager that you’d join match.com, particularly just to take a shot at her. You might not end up with her but eventually get someone better there.

Ashley, may not have interest in singing but wind up loving it just right after giving it a try.

If you walk up to someone after choir ministration to tell them you enjoyed the choral anthem don’t get mad when they effectively take you for your word by not attaching any meaning to it.
I’ve told girls in my church choir that i loved the way they sang because i really did. It wasn’t a compliment born out of an interest in dating her.
Saint Stephen 22

@Ileana
American pie is one of my fav movies. Very funny and entertaining. Got the whole collection 1-5… if this was a free forum i would have loved to discuss some very funny/awkward scenes. Watching American pie makes me believe you’re someone who loves to laugh

So do i
amy 23

Um…
1. Ash, learn to take a hint.

2. It doesn’t sound to me like the problem is approaching men. In my experience, men love to be approached. Totally, totally dig it. A woman taking the lead is a recipe for weak in the knees. It just can’t be all the time — but I don’t know who’d want to take the lead all the time anyway.

No, I think the problem here’s that Ashley doesn’t know how not to invade personal space, and she’s taking a frontal approach that’s kind of creepy. In her letter she comes off socially tone-deaf. If a guy’s running away from you while you’re trying to talk to him — you know, it’s hard to find a clearer demonstration of “he doesn’t want to talk to you”.

As for the gender-roles thing — again, Evan, I think you’re being thoughtless about what all this means. If your only goal is to bag a man, congratulations, that’ll work. But this is a dumb goal. If you play girly chase, you’re going to catch a man who thinks he ought to be in charge and that he should be able to do whatever the hell he wants, regardless of context. If you want to live with that, congratulations. But if you don’t — if, for instance, you want a guy who’ll take your career as seriously as he takes his own, who’ll behave equitably when it comes to the hard work of making home and family at the same time that you’re both making careers — then what do you want with a guy who loves the chase and is repelled by anything else? No, you look for someone who’s reasonably balanced in courtship, too.

Apart from which, in my experience, you’re way off base. I’m trying to remember the last time a guy turned me down when I chased him, asked him out, was direct about the fact that I wanted him, etc. Um…there must be someone. Jason R., 10th grade. Surely there…ha, aha, yes, oh boy, he was a cutie and so gay. College. I had no idea. Wound up with his roommate instead. …I’m totally drawing a blank otherwise. On the other hand, there were a couple of guys I was shy around, and much later they told me they’d had no idea I was interested and figured they had no chance, so didn’t bother. They’d totally have said yes if i’d approached them.

Yeah. I think you’re discounting how many men — all, in my experience, except one pretty damaged guy who later wound up with restraining orders and jail — have a strong submissive streak. A direct, sexually confident, even dominant woman is pretty much a dream for them. There’s legions of these guys. Leeeegions. I mean if you want to make a significant proportion of the male population go drymouthed, just say “tomboy”.

@Androgynous: I don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course you can approach men at gyms and at work, unless your HR code forbids it and you want to stay employed. If there’s attraction, the man doesn’t care where he is. A man who wants you will flirt with you in front of his wife and children (thus demonstrating why you don’t want to date him). Karl’s point is more germane: if the guy isn’t attracted to you at the gym, he’s not going to be interested at a party, either.
Pat 24

Hmmm…. I gotta say, there are an awful lot of men taking pleasure in the fact that Ashley got blown off by the man she was interested in. As if she finally gets a taste of what dating is like for men. Funny thing is, when women DO approach you guys, many of you don’t like it. So what’s a girl to do? A lot of women would love to ask you guys out, but we know that YOU won’t like it. So please stop acting like the victims and understand that a lot of us are playing on YOUR terms already. Enough sour grapes, give the girl a break. As tough as it is to be a man in the dating world, it really ain’t any better being a woman. Thought Evan’s entry underscored that.
henriette 25

So, here’s a question to build on this general point. Let’s say a woman sits back and lets a guy make all the effort with her. He approaches her, asks her out, he pays for her dinner, woos her, they start dating. Next phase is her accepting his sexual advances AS LONG AS THEY’VE HAD THE EXCLUSIVITY TALK, right?
But, let’s say he hasn’t broached the topic of exclusivity. Can she bring it up, or is that her taking the masculine role? If she is the one to say, hey – I want to f&ck you silly but I don’t feel comfortable doing so unless we’re not seeing anyone else – will that fall under the category of emasculating him and scaring him away? I’m not trying to be snarky… just genuinely trying to understand were Evan (and all the rest of you) draw the line re the man initiating everything and the woman responding. Working within this paradigm, at what point is it okay for a woman to move from merely being receptive to being proactive & asking for what she needs?
Helen 26

amy, in this case, I totally agree with you. LOVE your comments in 23.

Of course, the question for many women is: when does a man interpret her actions as approaching him (desirable) vs. invading his personal space (undesirable)? The same action from a woman will elicit different responses in different men. Perhaps as long as you’re not stalking, if your natural approaching style turns a guy off because he’s too dominant or insists on being the pursuer (or simply doesn’t find you attractive), he’s not the right one for you.

But yes, being a bit of a dominant woman is a huge turn-on for many men. You just have to do it with a smile and sparkling confidence.
Heather 27

@ Henriette, that’s actually a darn good question. I keep hearing all the time that basically if we girls open up our mouths for anything, we could be considered being pushy, and will chase a guy away. It makes me wonder OK, so when CAN we speak up for ourselves and say that we would like to know what’s going on so we can make up our minds and decide where to go from there? Do we say that as we’re out the door? That seems unfair, but then again, if we say something beforehand, we might be considered pushy.
Karl R 28

Helen asked: (#26)
“the question for many women is: when does a man interpret her actions as approaching him (desirable) vs. invading his personal space (undesirable)?”

Some men are open to being pursued. Let’s focus on those.

Helen,
You could answer your own question by turning it around. When do you find it desirable to be approached? When do you find it undesirable? When do you find it to be an invasion of your personal space?

You like to be approached by men you find attractive, men whom you’re interested in. So do we. Even if you’re unavailable, it’s somewhat flattering.

You don’t like to be approached by men you’re not interested in. You’d prefer not to have to reject them to their face. If you think one of those men is interested in you, you’ll try to give signals that you’re not interested in him. We do the same thing, but we’re not as accustomed to this situation, so we practice it less often.

You find it invasive if a person whom you’d never date make a blatant pass at you. You find it invasive when someone ignores the subtle hints that you’re not interested and keeps pressuring you. You find it invasive when someone tries to make a blatant pass when you are clearly preoccupied with something else. We feel the same way.

The difficulty is, you never know whether the person you’re approaching is interested. The men who have a clue will try to avoid approaching women who aren’t interested, be considerate of when/how they do, and pay attention to any indications that the woman is disinterested.

henriette: (#25)
“let’s say he hasn’t broached the topic of exclusivity. Can she bring it up, or is that her taking the masculine role?”

That’s protecting your own interest. Present it as a desire to understand what the situation is (without having to assume), rather than a desire to pressure him into making a decision.

Stephen said: (#21)
“I know many women who go to watch sporting activities just to meet men.”

If you’re attending a sporting event (or joining Match.com) to meet men in general, that’s not creepy. If you are attending a specific event just becaue one particular person is going to be there, that’s creepy (unless that was the person who invited you).

To put it another way, if the person you’re interested in isn’t interested in you, they should have the ability to avoid you … without you following them every place you know they’ll be.

Stephen said: (#21)
“Karl R, if you discovered that a girl you really liked was on match.com – I’ll wager that you’d join match.com, particularly just to take a shot at her.”

Absolutely not.

I’d approach her in person. She is already encountering me in person. I’ve already made some effort to indicate that I’m interested. It’s how she would expect me to approach her.

Furthermore, based on my personal experiences, I’d expect to be more likely to succeed by approaching her face-to-face.
Christie Hartman 29

This is one of those rare times I disagree with you, Evan. I don’t think Ashley is “being the guy.” I think she’s doing what women should do – initiating things with men so that men know it’s okay to pursue and do all those other things you mention. Ashley’s problem isn’t that she approached – it’s HOW she approached.

I’ve always said that meeting people at the gym is tough. But Ashley did a few things wrong:
1) You never try to talk to someone while they’re running, on the treadmill, or in the middle of a set. It’s bad gym etiquette, unless you already know that person.
2) Don’t try to talk to anyone wearing headphones, unless it’s to ask if you can work in or something else important. People with headphones on aren’t looking to chat.
3) Generally speaking, you don’t just go up and talk to someone you like at the gym. You have to start small. Make eye contact. Smile. Say hello. If you get good response, THEN talk (but still keep it brief).
Evan Marc Katz 30

Christie – I think a woman should put herself in the position to be approached. I don’t think, in general, she should approach. This is what I mean by “being the guy”. Face it: it’s a lot more telling when a man approaches you because he’s interested in you than when you go up and ask him for the time.
Bill 31

A lot of women are giving pointers on how to approach a man at the gym. As a man at the gym the only women that have approach me are very unattractive to me. The reality if the girl is very attractive the guy would stop doing what he is doing and talk to her. This is another case of he just does not find you attractive.

When a girl hit up one guy and she fails she complains to the whole world. When a guy fails he turns around and talks to the next attractive girl. It isn’t that approaching doesn’t work but when you approach someone your attracted to there will be a huge fail percentage.
Saint Stephen 32

Karl, the point i was trying to make is that Ashley should put herself in a position to be approached as opposed to playing the aggressive initiator role for a second time with the church guy. One more disinterested guy will shatter her self confidence. And why keep assuming that the church guy wont find her attractive? If he finds her attractive he’ll certainly think is thrilling for her to create a conducive environment to be asked out.

Furthermore, in my analogy about match.com. I presumed a scenario were you had slim chances of approaching this woman in real life… probably because you both go to work.
In many churches, choir members don’t interact much with floor members. They mostly interact amongst themselves.
Emma 33

I empathize with Ashley because I’ve approached men and I’ve failed, or it’s led to an fwb situation. One man who I was interested in said I set the tone for the fwb. I’m not sure the energy I was giving off, maybe a hint of desperation with a dash of aggressiveness. Whatever it was, I didn’t get great results and refuse to approach again…

But then you see Kim from the Housewives of Atl, I know, and how she approached her husband today. There first meeting was caught on camera, and she approached him, gave him compliments, and left. He came to her later that night to get her number. So maybe it’s the confidence you exude when you approach a man, which Kim had, and I lacked at the time.
Katherine Wakefield 34

If a man is interested in you, you will know! Be subtle, just eye contact with a smile. Nothing more. If he likes you, he will respond, guaranteed.
Karl R 35

Stephen said: (#32)
“the point i was trying to make is that Ashley should put herself in a position to be approached as opposed to playing the aggressive initiator role”

Here’s my point: Ashley’s behavior came across to me, and at least four other people (see #3, 10, 15, 23), as being creepy or stalker-like. Your suggestion came across to me, and at least one other person (see #10), as being creepy or stalker-like.

If someone shows a tendency to engage in dating behavior that others find creepy, I would not give them recommendations that others could find creepy.

Stephen asked: (#32)
“And why keep assuming that the church guy wont find her attractive?”
Ashley said:
“Also, I want to talk to this guy at my Church” [...] “I’m not really confident that he will like me.”

Stephen,
Whether the man finds her attractive is less relevant than whether he is interested in dating her.

When I was dating, I almost always knew a woman liked me (and was almost positive she found me attractive) before I asked her out. My success rate at getting a first date was around 50%.

If I was less certain about the liked/attracted part, my success rate was substantially lower (less than 20%).

Ashley didn’t state that the man has shown any indication that he finds her attractive (so it’s probably uncertain). She’s not confident that he will like her (so it’s also uncertain).

It sounds like a long-shot to me. When I was in that situation, I would go talk to the woman in order to guage whether she found me attractive or likeable. In less than 5% of the cases was there ever enough interest to make it worth pursuing further.

Is it worth trying? Why not. Should Ashley let herself get invested in the outcome? Definitely not.

Stephen asked: (#32)
“One more disinterested guy will shatter her self confidence.”

What makes you say that? I saw nothing in Ashley’s letter which indicates a fragile self-esteem.

She’s had a lot of rejections. So have I (and so have most other men). Why do you believe that Ashley is less resilient than most men?

Emma said: (#33)
“I empathize with Ashley because I’ve approached men and I’ve failed,”

Failing is the norm. You only have to succeed once.

Emma said: (#33)
“So maybe it’s the confidence you exude when you approach a man,”

Confidence improves your chances of success. It also allows you to feel better when you don’t succeed. So either way, confidence is important.
Laura S. 36

Here’s what works for me.   I am always smiling, I say, “Hi, how are you today?” I stop and wait for an answer. Yes, I do this with total strangers. If he wants to move on, let him go.   Keep the conversation brief, 3-5 minutes.   After that, I’ll smile and say, “Hi.”

Here’s the trick to turn the chase around.    I will keep positioning myself in his line of vision with my back to him and ignore him.

The guy in church?   After the initial brief chat, sit in front of him and IGNORE him.    He will be interested in you.

Men hate to be ignored.

Since this is something we can do this with multiple men at the same time, there is no failure, shattered confidences, or perceptions of over-agressive creepiness. I get a kick out of how some of the men figure out where I’ll be next and happen to just “be there” for a quiet conversation.
Saint Stephen 37

Karl R asked (#35)
What makes you say that? I saw nothing in Ashley’s letter which indicates a fragile self-esteem.
She’s had a lot of rejections. So have I (and so have most other men). Why do you believe that Ashley is less resilient than most men?
Karl R Said (#35)
Confidence improves your chances of success. It also allows you to feel better when you don’t succeed. So either way, confidence is important.
By making this comment u’ve inadvertently answered your question. Is obvious that Ashley isn’t feeling better about her consecutive lack of success. Secondly, her chances of success – by doing it your way – aren’t improving. Given the attributes you ascribed to confidence – Why do you think Ashley is optimally confident?
Karl R
I’ll propose that one’s success rate with members of the opposite gender enhances self-confidence, not the other way round. No matter how confident a man is if he’s success rate with women is 0%. Proportionally, he’s confidence level will plummet to a non-existence state. Confidence improving success rate = correlation. But success rate boosting self-confidence = direct causation.
Karl R 38

Stephen said: (#37)
“I’ll propose that one’s success rate with members of the opposite gender enhances self-confidence, not the other way round.”
Winston Churchill said:
“Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.”

Stephen,
Based on comments you’ve made on this blog, I’ve gotten the distinct impression that I’ve been far more successful in relationships than you have.

Does succes breed confidence? Sure. But confidence also breeds success. (More specifically, the ability to project a confident demeanor.) If you have neither success nor confidence, you can either wait helplessly, hoping for a success, or you can fake self-confidence until you make your own success.

Confidence can be convincingly faked. I’ve done it. Do you know of a way to convincingly fake success?

Stephen said: (#37)
“No matter how confident a man is if he’s success rate with women is 0%. Proportionally, he’s confidence level will plummet to a non-existence state.”

As Winston Churchill eloquently stated, the successful people shrug off failures without losing confidence. This is particularly important in dating (or similar endeavors) where failures are common (even for confident people) and confidence creates success.

Would you rather be right, or would you rather succeed? Because if you believe that confidence is dependent upon success, that will remain true for you. Or you can decide that you might be mistaken, and try a strategy that will be more successful.
Heather 39

@ Saint Stephen,

I think you have a really good point about a guy’s failures with women, taking his self-confidence down. I once dated a guy who was constantly complaining, while we were dating, about all the girls who had rejected him. Which explained his increasingly unacceptable behaviors after being rejected. Heck, he saw one girl who nicely told him “thanks but no thanks” out with another guy, he approached the girl and guy, and dropped the c-word on her!!! What????

Funny part is, once we were together awhile and he seemed to have his confidence back, he became a judgmental, self-righteous jerk and ended our relationship. But, from what I have heard, he is still single and complains about how he can’t find anybody.

Me, I have a really nice guy in my life, and am totally happy now, and he is a totally secure man.
nathan 40

I have to laugh at suggestions that something as subtle as a smile and a bit of eye contact are enough. After numerous experiences in my 20s where those simple actions turned out to be only friendly gestures coming from the women in question, I realized that it’s better to never assume anything. Sometimes, I’ll still strike up a conversation and ask for a phone number, but I do so from a place of not knowing The problem for Ashley is that she’s ignoring all the cues, and pushing forward with men who aren’t interested.

Furthermore, I would change Evan’s statement about gender roles to say “most men over 40 are comfortable with those gender roles.” With the under 40 crowd, it’s much more of a mixed bag. In my opinion, women should feel empowered to approach men if they want to. Especially if what they have been doing isn’t working. Does approaching men entail some risk? Sure. Are some men going to feel “ruffled” and upset? Sure. But it doesn’t make sense to me to limit yourself only to what’s expected from you – as a man or woman. In the modern dating world, people need to get more creative, even if it results in some flops.

Furthermore, the comments about stereotypes are almost exactly the same song and dance some white people do when invoking every racist stereotype under the sun. I reject that as a basis for saying women shouldn’t approach, just as I would reject similar comments that men shouldn’t cry because they are men. It’s more the case that women aren’t successful with approaching and being the pursuer for a variety of reasons. They collectively have much less practice. They give up too easily, failing to remember as Karl said that rejection is the norm. They are choosing men who are not approachable, or who do believe in a more rigid understanding of gender roles. Or they’re missing the cues, like Ashley clearly is.

In the end, I think women should feel like all options are on the table. That they can decide based upon their current situation what’s best. Instead of saying women should play the role of the pursuer, I think it’s a hell of a lot more interesting to hear from women who have both been successful and unsuccessful in pursuing. I just think it’s telling that most of the women commenting here aren’t nodding in full agreement with Evan’s assessment.
Evan Marc Katz 41

@Nathan – I’m quite used to women disagreeing with me in the comments section. And I don’t have a real horse in the race. My job is to report how things are – not how you want them to be.

You can come up with a dozen rationalizations for why women aren’t successful with approaching – and all are somewhat valid. The big one you’re missing? Men really do prefer to approach attractive women and win them over. They don’t respond to the perceived desperation, neediness or aggression of an approaching woman. We can spin this in a thousand ways and that’s still the biggest reason that women approaching men doesn’t work. Most men don’t like it. What men DO like is to have an EASIER path to approaching. Which is why subtle cues like positioning, eye contact, body language and smiling are all but inviting even the most timid men to come over and say hi.

Think about any desirable woman. Does she have to approach a guy with some line to get noticed? Nope. She just has to show up, smile, and appear open to being approached. All this talk about the under 40s being different is missing a much greater point – most men AND most women are sick of feminine men who are waiting for HER to “man up”. They WANT guys to take action.

And any commenter who disagrees based on personal feelings (like Nathan) or some anecdote of a woman who approached her husband is clearly not paying attention. Men approach women at parties, bars, the workplace, and online. Men are used to it. Women are used to it. It’s worked well for years. So while I’m not morally against empowered women going up to a guy and saying, “I’m Ashley, can I buy you a drink?” I do think that most guys would be turned off/weirded out by it – which renders it ineffective as a plan of action, even if it’s well-intentioned.

Take control of your love life by making yourself more approachable, not by doing the approaching. It’s not only simpler, it’s much more effective as well.
Helen 42

Evan, you wrote: “Men really do prefer to approach attractive women and win them over.” (emphasis mine)

There, you see, is the whole point. The majority of women are NOT attractive, unless you consider any woman above a 5 attractive (I think most men would not be that liberal). It’s simple math. Yes, a woman may have an attractive personality – but no guy will ever know that, if he doesn’t approach her because he doesn’t find her looks sufficiently compelling.

So what nathan suggests makes perfect sense. He pointed out that women should try something different “if what they have been doing isn’t working.” Thus, if the majority of women aren’t being approached by men, it makes perfect sense for these women to approach. Then, at least, they establish contact with men who may find their personalities lovable, if not their immediate looks.

Besides, women like to approach too. It’s not as though only men like approaching (and therefore they should be the only ones to do it), and only women like standing back receptively. I love approaching people and situations and experiences, have learned to thicken my skin, and am happier for being proactive rather than sitting and waiting for life to happen to me. I know my own example is merely an anecdote, nothing of statistical significance. But it’s worthwhile to point out that HUMANS are by nature active beings: not just one gender.
Evan Marc Katz 43

Helen,

Think about this logically. A man doesn’t find a woman sufficiently attractive to approach her…and yet he’s going to be receptive when that unattractive woman approaches him?

You don’t actually think that’s true, do you?

If a woman is attractive to a man (and if you look around the shopping malls of America, there’s a lid for every pot), and she seems receptive, he’ll approach her. Men have been doing it since the beginning of time. The real reason that women don’t meet more men is because they’re not online, they’re not out and about, and they’re not aware enough how to encourage men to approach when they do see men. I’ve already recommended Samantha Scholfield’s “Screw Cupid” to women who want to approach. I just think it’s a lot more work and a lot less effective than being approachable.

So instead of arguing with me about how YOU like to approach, why don’t you tell me how an unattractive woman is going to win over a man who doesn’t find her attractive?
Helen 44

Evan, you wrote: “Think about this logically. A man doesn’t find a woman sufficiently attractive to approach her…and yet he’s going to be receptive when that unattractive woman approaches him?”

That would be the story of me approaching my husband. I’m not a beauty queen. But I approached him, over time he fell in love with my personality and intelligence… and we’ve been married 13+ years now.

You said you didn’t want anecdotes. But you asked. I have enough faith in men to believe that even if they don’t find a women’s looks sufficiently attractive to approach her in the beginning, they can fall in love with these same women for other reasons. I’d be curious to hear about others’ experiences.
nathan 45

Evan, you reject nearly every last disagreement with the same kind of approach. You tell us we aren’t being rational. Or are focused on anecdotes. Or that you know what’s happening in reality, and we are just dreaming about what we want. Frankly, I just think you’d rather argue and believe you’re right than consider that other points of view might be valid.

I still say that things are changing amongst younger folks. From what I’m witnessing and experiencing, dating and relationships are changing. Online dating, feminism, shifting job markets, more women attending college than men, more men being the primary caregiver for children – all of these and more are changing how we interact with each other, and how we view our relationships. Which doesn’t mean most women are suddenly wanting to be with that “weak, feminine” guy cliche you tossed out in response to my points. But it does mean that a lot more women are looking to share the power and decision-making in a relationship, some right from the beginning.

The basic difference between you and I is that you believe you know how most people operate, whereas I think people are more mysterious and complex. It’s not really relevant who is “right” here. There is validity in readers seeing the whole conversation amongst everyone here, and deciding what’s useful for them.
Evan Marc Katz 46

And there you have it, Helen. It happened to you, so therefore it should happen to other people, too. You’re forgetting that I prescribe advice for the masses. Are there exceptions to every rule? Absolutely. Perfectly legitimate, valid ones. But you can’t contradict my advice to the masses with this one story – or even many other stories of Sadie Hawkins women. No more than we can conclude that dropping out of college is a great plan for success just because Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg did it. I’m not denying your reality, Helen. I’m happy for you. I just don’t think it’s a great blueprint for women. My job is to give the blueprint.
nathan 47

Actually, if you want to talk about the masses, Evan, the reality is that the majority of us don’t stand out. We’re fairly average looking in the conventional sense. It’s only the outliers on either end that really stand out. I can scan any room full of people, and I might find a few women who are really physically attractive – who stand out in that way, and get my attention. But that doesn’t mean they are potential good matches. Just because of some initial attraction based solely on appearance. No, it’s much more likely that a good match will be a woman who is more in the middle when it comes to looks. Which means she’s going to have to do more to stand out and get noticed.
Evan Marc Katz 48

@Nathan

Every opinion is valid to the person with the opinion. The problem is when people mistake their outside-the-mainstream views for mainstream. It doesn’t mean that any of these people are “wrong” or bad or are doomed to a life of solitude. It means that they’re mistaking their idiosyncrasy for something that is not necessarily as effective with the majority of people out there.

We can go down a list if you like:

Women who sleep with men on date 1. CAN you get married to the guy you sleep with on Date 1? Sure. Happens all the time. Is this a good plan? Not in my book.
Couples who get engaged after 6 months. Are there SOME couples who got married on sight and stayed married for 40 years? Absolutely. Is this a good plan? Not in my book.
Alpha females who want to date alpha males. Is it possible that two people who work 60 hours a week, and are brilliant, stubborn, difficult and selfish can coexist as a couple? Yep. Is this a good plan? Not in my book.
Men who give flowers before the first date. Is there some woman who will be charmed by this? Absolutely. Do more women get creeped out, making this a bad plan? You betcha.

So when you or Helen pose the idea that women should start asking out men – and have personal anecdotal evidence to back yourselves up – you have every right to your opinion and life experience.

I also have the right to tell the majority of our readers who are dealing with mainstream men that this is unlikely to be an effective plan…your inspirational stories notwithstanding.

Do we understand each other a little bit better, Nathan? You’re a nice guy and I’m not denying YOUR reality, but I will weigh in pretty heavily that I don’t think that it’s effective dating advice. And since this is my site, I think it’s really important that I help readers distinguish good advice from advice that appeals to a much smaller segment of the population.

That’s the only reason I come here to “argue”. Your advice may be right for you and Helen. I believe mine is right for more people.
Helen 49

Evan, I respect your viewpoints, so think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. It isn’t on just my story alone that I believe that nathan is right in this case: that many different methods may work today, now that gender roles are becoming less sharply defined in every aspect of society.

Did I ever say my experience could be generalized to others? No; I specifically stated it was an anecdote and therefore not statistically significant. I have never been swayed by use of anecdotes to “prove” a point.

I also think it comes back to what amy said all the way back in 23. Partly, the way we act around men (whether assertive or receptive) depends on what type of man we want. If we want one who is more traditional, then it would do well to follow your advice and be more coy and receptive. If we want one who is less traditional, then we modify our behavior accordingly. But in the end, we have to come back to the way we really, truly are. And some of us women are not coy by nature. I’m not naive that a certain amount of game-playing enters into courtship – but it is troubling to think of women behaving in ways that are unlike themselves to attract a man who then may have a completely wrong picture of who they really are.
Karl R 50

nathan said: (#40)
“I have to laugh at suggestions that something as subtle as a smile and a bit of eye contact are enough. After numerous experiences in my 20s where those simple actions turned out to be only friendly gestures coming from the women in question,”

A friendly gesture is enough to allow me to walk over, introduce myself, and strike up a conversation. After talking to the woman, I can get a better idea whether the smile was only a friendly gesture, or whether her interest goes a bit further.

If a woman won’t make eye contact or doesn’t smile, then I’ll assume she is disinterested. Even if I am interested, I won’t go over and talk to her. She’s given me her answer already.

Evan said: (#41)
“So while I’m not morally against empowered women going up to a guy and saying, “I’m Ashley, can I buy you a drink?” I do think that most guys would be turned off/weirded out by it – which renders it ineffective as a plan of action, even if it’s well-intentioned.”

Evan, I think you’re overestimating the number of men who would have a negative reaction to it.

I’m sure some men would be weirded out by it. I’m sure some men would love it. But I wouldn’t presume to say that most men would be turned off by a woman instigating things.

Off the top of my head, I can think of five women who asked me out (or suggested that I ask them out) in the last seven years. (There are a few more where I’m less certain who did the asking.) I went on at least one date with each of them. I dated one for 8 1/2 months.

As far as I can tell, less confident men tend to be more appreciative of being approached. (It relieves them of the anxiety of doing the approaching.) More confident men only appreciate being approached by women they were interested in approaching (and likely were already intending to approach).

Evan said: (#41)
“Men really do prefer to approach attractive women and win them over.”
“What men DO like is to have an EASIER path to approaching.”

I think you’re splitting hairs here.

In addition to the five women I mentioned above, there are several others where I can’t remember who made the first move. Even if I was the instigator, then they’d made it crystal clear that I was going to receive a positive response.

And if the woman had already made it clear that I was getting a “Yes” response, can I honestly claim that I was the instigator?

Evan said: (#41)
“Men approach women at parties, bars, the workplace, and online. Men are used to it. Women are used to it. It’s worked well for years.”

I go out to a bar or a party one to three times per week. On the dance floor, men usually ask women to dance. But women do enough of the asking that everyone is accustomed to it to.

Some nights I can’t make it to the edge of the dance floor between songs before the next woman asks me to dance.

I’m in the bible belt. You’re on the west coast. I don’t think gender roles are more strictly enforced in your part of the country.

Evan said: (#41)
“They don’t respond to the perceived desperation, neediness or aggression of an approaching woman.”
“Think about any desirable woman. Does she have to approach a guy with some line to get noticed? Nope.”

If I am already intending to approach a woman, or ask her to dance, or ask her out, she does not make herself suddenly less desirable by preempting me and doing it first.

I’ve got a fairly healthy ego. I don’t interpret interest in me as a sign of neediness or deperation. If anything, it’s a sign of good taste in men.

Of course, if I was already intending to approach/ask, it wasn’t really necessary for her to do it instead. But she’s not hurting her chances by doing so.

Evan said: (#41)
“Take control of your love life by making yourself more approachable, not by doing the approaching. It’s not only simpler, it’s much more effective as well.”

I think women asking men is an effective strategy if (and only if) he’s a less confident man. Instead of waiting around to see if he’s ever going to make a move, she can help him take the first one.

With a more confident man, asking is either going to be irrelevant or counterproductive. If he’s one of the men who is weirded out, it’s counterproductive. If he’s not weirded out, you haven’t changed his interest level, so it’s irrelevant.

Most women seem to prefer more confident men. They probably shouldn’t do the pursuing.

For women who prefer less confident men, it may be worth their while to learn how to do some approaching pursuing. (Your suggestion with Screw Cupid sounds quite sensible.)

Evan said: (#41)
“I also have the right to tell the majority of our readers who are dealing with mainstream men that this is unlikely to be an effective plan…”

Are confident men the “mainstream”? 90% of all people say they’ve been shy at some point in their lives. 50% describe themselves as shy now. 15% seem to be predisposed to shyness from birth. (I couldn’t find statistics breaking this out by sex, though I suspect it’s about evenly split between men and women.)

See this article for more information.

In my opinion, if a woman learns how to do the approaching, as well as knowing how to be approached, then she is increasing her options. It’s certainly simpler to always wait to be approached. But I can’t see how it’s less effective to have different options for different circumstances and people.
Christie Hartman 51

“Men really do prefer to approach attractive women and win them over. They don’t respond to the perceived desperation, neediness or aggression of an approaching woman.”

Evan, men do like winning women over, but they don’t always like the approach because it’s fraught with the potential for rejection and a resulting blow to one’s confidence. Most men like when a woman initiates conversation – it takes some of the pressure off of him. This isn’t my opinion – this is based on reports from countless men who’ve said this to me and on blogs like this one.

As far as “desperation, neediness, or aggression go,” you’re right, men don’t respond to that. But since when is striking up a conversation an act of desperation? In many cases, it’s an act of self-confidence and sociability.

“Think about any desirable woman. Does she have to approach a guy with some line to get noticed? Nope. She just has to show up, smile, and appear open to being approached.”

If only it were that easy.

There’s a big difference between chasing/pursuing a man, and simply initiating conversation with one. The OP chased her guy (quite literally). She also made him uncomfortable. The approach is an art form. It’s really about social skills – learning to read people and knowing how to make them feel comfortable in your presence. Male or female, we’re all human and starting conversation with a stranger is no easy task. Why not share the burden? Then, if things go well, a man can begin his pursuit.
Evan Marc Katz 52

Well said, Karl.

As a dating coach for smart, strong, successful women, I’ve learned that a vast majority of them are looking for confident men. As such, I advise them that confident men will approach them, call them and commit to them if they really want to. And if they don’t want to, they won’t.

This is the peril of giving advice – there will always be people to whom it doesn’t apply – but I’m confident that for my target audience, being receptive is more effective than being proactive.
Helen 53

Karl R wrote: “I don’t interpret interest in me as a sign of neediness or deperation. If anything, it’s a sign of good taste in men.”

Love it.
MilkyMae 54

I don’t think men care much about how things happen or how a relationship unfolds. They want to get from point a to point b. If getting asked out gets them to where they want to go, I don’t think they care how anything feels. Men may not like overbearing women who ambush them but I don’t think men even remember who approached or who asked who if they are attracted to a woman.
Ruby 55

The problem isn’t that Ashley initiated conversation with a man, it’s that she didn’t know when to stop, long after after the signs were clear that the man wasn’t interested. She didn’t know how to read the multiple, obvious signals and continued to pursue. Not only did she keep “trying to talk to him” after he ran away from her and acted like “kind of a jerk”, she actually confronted him about his disinterest in her, and then she waited for him for another 40 minutes after he said he’d meet up with her. Nobody, male or female, wants to be stalked like that.
Still-Looking 56

Great discussion. I think Christie@51 hits the nail on the head with the distinction between initiating a conversation (showing interest) and actively pursuing.

Nothing ventured – nothing gained!
Sacha 57

Evan #52 “….but I’m confident that for my target audience, being receptive is more effective than being proactive”

Please define what you mean by “more effective”. “More effective” in what? Getting a date? Or finding a suitable match for a successful long-term relationship? What is the point in getting a date with someone who is known – right from the start – to be unlikely to be a good long-term match??

I find your advice self-contradictory.

You suggest alpha females and alpha males are not a good match. You suggest alpha women are better matched with beta men. So far – agreed! Beta men are any variation and combination of sensitive, quiet, agreeable, introspective, imaginative, creative etc, while at the same time not very competitive, not very assertive and not very willing to initiate and take risks. Best match for a passive non-assertive person is….an assertive person who does not mind taking risks and being the initiator. Regardless male or female. Think ‘negotiator’ and ‘director’ types as per Helen Fisher’s research.

Here is the contradiction in your advice.

You say you give advice to “smart, strong, successful women”, i.e. alpha women. These women are assertive, active and like taking the initiative. Why are you advising your active assertive alpha-female readers to go against type and be passive and wait to be approached?? This seems wrong on so many levels, being “effective” in getting a date notwithstanding! Firstly, the women would not be themselves because they would be suppressing a major part of their personality. That can’t be good for them. Secondly, since that is not a sustainable state, they will eventually revert to their dominant assertive type and then the men would feel duped. Cue disappearing man. Thirdly, the men who are much more likely to approach them would be the alpha types, who we agree are not a good match to alpha women in the first place. That is likely to backfire sooner or later.

What’s the point of an assertive dominant woman pretending to be passive and receptive in order to get a date with an assertive initiating man who is going to clash with her personality-wise down the line??

It seems that the most effective – and more importantly, useful – advice you can give to your “target audience” of “smart, strong, successful women” would be the opposite of what you advise, i.e. to approach every guy they are attracted to. This would be a good initial test of compatibility. If the guy is put off and runs, it means there is no personality match and that is best discovered early on. Move on to the next one until you find a man who is not put off by an initiating assertive woman.
Helen 58

Bingo, Sacha. That was the point I was trying to make in 49, and you stated it much more thoroughly. We women should be *ourselves*, not just to make our own lives easier, but also to be honest to the men we meet. That is how we attract those who would actually like us for who we are. As Evan said himself, there is a lid for every pot. Not every man likes a coy violet. Many like brightly colored dahlias.
Evan Marc Katz 59

Sacha,

You make an excellent point. Here’s how I reconcile it:

a) This isn’t as binary as everyone (myself included) is making it out to be. Believe me, I believe in strong, proactive women. Which is why I’m an advocate of not just online dating, but women initiating contact with men online. How do I square that with what I said previously? Because my email technique, found in my Finding the One Online audio series, has NOTHING to do with hitting on him, asking him out, finding commonality, or setting a date. My technique is the verbal equivalent of smiling at a guy at a bar.

b) Next, people aren’t as binary as we’re making them out to be. It’s not just alpha vs. beta for both men and women. There’s a lot of grey in between. Despite that, my intimation is that even insecure guys are quite familiar with what women want from men – and, as such, most men have gotten their dates from initiating contact. It’s not just for the top 10% of guys; I’m guessing it’s closer to 90% of men know that they have to take action instead of sitting back, waiting to get asked out.

c) Finally, I may just be splitting hairs, but I believe there is a substantive difference between approaching a man and putting yourself in the position to be approached. Being approached gives a woman more power, because she’s not putting herself out there: he is. Approaching means that you’re losing your feminine energy and putting him up on a pedestal.

And despite the idea that alpha/alpha pairings aren’t a great idea, I firmly believe that most of my alpha women aren’t looking for a man who is too timid to approach. They’re really looking for a cute, smart, successful, confident guy who is sensitive enough to be a great partner. He’s emotionally available. He gets home from work at a reasonable hour. He’s faithful. He wants to spend lots of time together. He has good values. So I encourage women to step away from the Tiger Woods/Bill Clinton/George Clooneys and find guys who are less alpha, but still confident. That’s who their best fits are…not shy, awkward and timid.

I know I’m making it binary again, but it’s an interesting subject with not a clear-cut answer.

I hear everyone who disagrees with me and I honor your opinions. I still maintain that for my clients, who are looking for men they respect – men who can ask a woman out, make reservations and make the first move on the date – the best way to land them is to be available, open and flirtatious…not to go right up to him and start gabbing.

The right guy will make the move.

And, if the results of my coaching are any indication, there’s something to what I’m saying.

Best to all of you…and to all, a good night.
nathan 60

Sacha – I love it! Also, I want to pick up on Karl’s comments about confidence. Because while he ended up seeming to agree with Evan, he actually provided a more complex picture.

When I read Karl’s comments about his experiences dancing, not only did they demonstrate roles shifting around, but they also brought something else to mind. Namely, that confidence is often situational. If you stick the majority of people in situations that are unfamiliar or uncomfortable to them, their demonstrated confidence usually goes down. The shy person struggles mightily. The person with average confidence appears shaken and acts uneven. And those with above average confidence shift down towards average – for a time. Now, eventually most of us gain some level of mastery or comfort and our general level of confidence returns to normal. (Although sometimes a new skill, activity or situation can increase one’s overall confidence, but that’s not my main point here.)

I bring all of that up because if a woman only sees a man in a certain context, where he’s learning something or is simply out of “his element,” then she might be waiting an awful long time for an approach. And meanwhile, he’s already met someone in a context where he’s got some mastery and feels much more confident in.

Beyond this though, people simply respond differently in different contexts. Guys working out at a gym are usually focused on doing just that. The same goes for most women. So, actually, I think it probably requires a more assertive approach from whomever as opposed to other situations. Still, Ashley went too far, and didn’t read the signs the guy was giving.

Finally, there’s this line from Karl “In my opinion, if a woman learns how to do the approaching, as well as knowing how to be approached, then she is increasing her options. ” That’s been my main point in debating this all along. I think it’s bad advice to tell women to only use one method. There’s going to be disagreements about level of effectiveness of different methods, but I still say learn how to be more flexible because people who tend to have much longer, happier relationships.
henriette 61

Evan, I agree with you whole-heartedly. As a woman who was approached constantly when she lived in The Big Smoke and now, in a smaller city, NEVER… it’s just hard to follow your advice, even though I know it’s sound.

I realize that men aren’t your target audience. But once, I’d love to read a post summarizing what your advice would be to The Single Good Guys out there… you know: the cute, responsible with money, faithful, emotionally healthy, kind men. You’ve been clear and consistent in your advice to me, the single woman. I’d just like to better understand the other side of that equation.
Sherel 62

I think you have to be strategic and depending on your confidence level and target, adjust as needed. I am a smiler by nature, so a lot of guys approach me thinking that I am interested when I am not. For many men that I am interested in, if they have been checking me out they may be a bit unsure. Some I can draw to me with additional eye contact. Others that are less confident, I may make a comment or ask a question as I walk by. I am very confident and I have dated really confident guys and not so confident guys. Some of the not so confident guys became more confident as the relationship progressed and I am a smart, strong, and successful woman.
Androgynous 63

Yes, I am familiar with all the talk about letting men do the approaching yada yada. However, I do advocate women approaching men for one reason and one reason only – to put themselves out their misery wondering and wondering “does he, does he not, does he…..”.

I reckon that women should just relax and not fixate on wondering if particular men like them. If it happens, it happen. If it doesn’t, no big deal. However, for many women, this is simply not possible, particularly when a particular guy they fancy seems to be giving them all these positive “signals” they are interested, but falls short of actually asking them out. These women cannot move on. They cannot get on with their lives. They get trapped in this mental and emotional torture morning, noon and night.

The best way to deal with this is to get a mutual third party to find out what this guy’s intentions are all about. However, failing this, the woman should just bite the bullet and ask the guy out. She probably won’t be successful for all the reasons EMK has already mentioned. But at least she will know he is not interested in pursuing a relationship with her, even though he seems to like her – he may not be available for a variety of reasons which he is not obliged to give her. She can now close that chapter and MOVE ON !!! Find someone else to be interested in and vice versa. Not get hung up on this guy whose mouth seems to be writing checks his body can’t cash.
And guys, please ! If you don’t want to pursue things with a woman, don’t give her all these signals they might just want to. And the same applies to women.
Banana 64

As an early 20s woman I find that some men im around do not yet have the confidence to completely approach and follow through to relationship without reassurance from women. Even the shy men, however, want to take the prize of asking women out. Maybe Nathan and others are saying that women can initiate contact with men. This to me is different from being the one to approach the other party in a dating sense. I often have initiated friendships with men I later dated because then they feel comfortable enough to ask me out. This does not at all seem to me like “approaching” them in the sense Evan is talking about, though it did let me control/ influence my dating life while letting men still be “in charge”.
Murgull 65

Like Evan acknowledges in #59 the advice he gives in the original post is a bit binary.

Personally I think that there is nothing wrong with a woman to approach a man, even one she doesn’t know. However you should only go so far, in this case the man has clearly (or subtlety clearly) expressed his wishes not to take the “relationship” further. His position should be respected…

In any case as some of the earlier poster stated you have made your interest clear, if he happens to change his mind next time he sees you and asks for a date that is fine.

If not find yourself simply move to the next target.
Joe 66

@ Helen #42:

Haven’t the data from OLD sites basically proven that men find a greater percentage of women attractive than women find men attractive? Or at least, that men are more willing to initiate contact with average-looking women than women are willing to contact average-looking men?
amy 67

Evan, I had a big long post about why you’re just plain wrong about this. But this says it better:

http://textsfromhillaryclinton.tumblr.com/post/20651224954/original-image-by-diana-walker-for-time

i’ve been noticing this increasingly over the last several years: you get a newscast that’s women talking to women about women, and it’s not cooking or cosmetics, it’s policy, law, business, finance, government. And you know we’re getting somewhere, because not all the women feel compelled to doll up for the camera anymore.

Really, there’s no reason for us to put up with the kind of ego nonsense you describe from men anymore, and increasingly we just don’t. That story in the NYer about all these people living alone? This is why. It’s not worth it for women anymore to put up with all this insane ego baloney from men, so we don’t. What’s the stat, in 40% of dual-income households, the women outearn the men? It’s just silly for us to pretend to be dating prey at this point. If the men don’t like it, that’s their problem.

I think the men who’ll be truly successful at this procreation game are going to be the ones who are comfortable sharing, doing their share of what used to be called work, cooperating, and taking a back seat sometimes — and are also grownups, able to take care of themselves and other people. In other words, men who behave more like women. The girls put up with so much less now. The attitudes on my daughter and her friends…they have no patience for boys’ bad behavior, inability to communicate, cooperate, work collaboratively, get along. Or for their disrespect. Their attitude’s that if a man doesn’t treat a woman well — by their lights, not the man’s lights — she should dump him posthaste, married or not, and that being with friends is preferable. None of them plan dreamy weddings; they just don’t find it interesting, I guess. I never thought about that before, but it’s true…they don’t dream of Their Big Day. I’m the one who assumes my daughter will get married. I’ll say, “When you get married,” and she says, “If I get married.”
Evan Marc Katz 68

Amy,

If you’ve ever read a word I’ve written, I explicitly tell women not to put up with men’s bad behavior. In fact, it’s pretty much my whole business model. If he doesn’t call you, see you, commit to you, dump him. I’ve written extensively that the happiest marriages are when men pick up on women’s emotional cues and share in the housework/childrearing.

So please spare me the diatribe. Being feminine still appeals to men, whether you like it or not.

My clients have their dreams fulfilled by learning to understand men. If you’re living your dream right now, God bless you.
Karl R 69

Amy, (#67)
If anyone (male or female) wants to be successful at dating, they have to adapt to the opposite sex. It doesn’t matter how irrational the other person’s viewpoint is, you can either scream about how the opposite sex needs to change, or you can make a simple change to yourself.

Something came up on the blog (a few years ago) indicating that some women make their first evaluation of a man by looking at his shoes. If he takes good care of his shoes, they believe he’ll take good care of his partner.

That’s completely ludicrous. The two are completely unrelated. But (based on the responses) it appeared that a substantial number of women used shoes as one of their red flags.

So I bought a nice pair of new shoes, and wore them exclusively on first and second dates. They stayed in great shape (barely ever worn). It didn’t hurt my chances with more rational women, and it helped with the ones who bought into that goofball theory. I’m still the exact same person, regardless of which shoes I’m wearing.

You’re trying to convince everyone that ratty old shoes are perfectly acceptable. It doesn’t matter whether you’re right. You can’t change everybody. And given the way you express yourself, I’d be somewhat surprised if you converted anybody to your point of view.
Helen 70

Karl R: seriously? I never notice men’s shoes, and rarely women’s, for that matter. However, it doesn’t seem that your particular anecdote refutes amy’s point. Don’t you only want to have LTRs with rational women (which you seem to define as those who don’t evaluate men based on shoes)? If so, you wouldn’t have lost anything by keeping to the regular shoes you wore. Doing so would have screened out silly girls.

In that light, I think amy’s viewpoint is quite reasonable. It all depends on what the individual woman wants. She doesn’t need the majority of men to find her attractive; she only needs one (for an LTR, anyway). Such a woman is best served by being her natural self: approaching men if she wishes, or being coy if she wishes. That is how she would attract the most appropriate man for her personality. It only becomes an issue if a woman wants to be very generally attractive. Then she should behave in the way that is most attractive to the majority. Even then, however, I don’t see how it serves her or the men well to deviate very much from her natural behavior.

Joe: I don’t know these studies. If you have any sources to share, that would be great. Thanks.
Evan Marc Katz 71

The terms I use, Helen, aren’t “right and wrong”, but “effective and ineffective”. Despite Amy’s hyperarticulate defense of her own behaviors, my guess is that she’s not very effective with men. Her defense is probably that she scares off the wrong men, leaving only the right ones.

I’m in Karl’s camp: you hold a lot more cards in dating if every single person who meet you thinks you’re great than if you turn off 90% of them with your negativity, fearfulness, and brutal “honesty”. To certain people, putting on makeup or a dress (or a smile) is inauthentic – it’s just a game to fool stupid men into liking you. I would suggest that these folks, in their pure authenticity, will have a harder time of achieving a relationship because the thought of doing anything to please a man is anathema to her very soul.

Any man who decides that he must be an artist – by not washing his hair, or having a day job, or paying his electric bill on time – will quickly find out how “being yourself” isn’t necessarily the best strategy for success.
Helen 72

Evan 71, the good thing is that being yourself is not synonymous with being repulsive – not for the vast majority of people, anyway. Again, just as you say, it’s not black or white, right or wrong, conventionally attractive or disgusting.

If I forced myself to wait quietly and coyly to be approached, I’d likely attract men who wouldn’t interest me and wouldn’t really be interested in me once they got to know the real woman. Instead, I’m cheerful, smiley, and almost always the one to approach others. I’ve never been lacking for men who find me attractive. And I’m like Karl R in not despising those who like me, but appreciating them. (Unless they stalk – but that’s thankfully rare.)

There are so many different types of men and women. A lid for every pot. A fellow for (nearly) every woman, and vice versa.

I’m not sure how much credence to put into this “men do this / women do that” approach. It seems that happiness with oneself and enjoyment of others’ company gets you amazingly far without having to hide your personality.

Well, I’ve said enough here. Thanks for the debate – it is interesting to see the multitude of viewpoints.
Karl R 73

Helen said: (#70)
“Don’t you only want to have LTRs with rational women (which you seem to define as those who don’t evaluate men based on shoes)?”

Everybody holds some irrational belief. Most women aren’t going to try to continue holding this belief if reality conflicts with it (i.e. they decide I’m a great guy, then they discover what the rest of my shoes look like). And in the grand scheme of things, this is too trivial to eliminate someone over.

If a woman is bright, cute, funny, kind and generous, I’d like the option to pursue a relationship with her … even if she holds an irrational belief about shoes. But I might only get that chance by catering to the irrational belief.
Evan Marc Katz 74

Helen, since I can’t resist… you seem to be willfully misinterpreting my take on how women should meet men. I’ve never said quiet. I’ve never said coy. I’ve never said to give yourself a personality-ectomy or become a hollow, boring cipher. That’s YOUR twisted version of what I wrote. I just never wrote it.

What I did say was that men like to win women over. Women like to be won over. Men know they’re supposed to do it. And if they’re afraid, you can give them a little positive reinforcement with a smile and some eye contact, encouraging him to approach you safely. Once he meets you, he’ll be well acquainted with your big personality and will probably love it.

So please, stop turning my pro-women stance into something retro, 50′s, Stepford wife. Just because I don’t tell women to walk up to men and buy them drinks doesn’t mean that I think they should be shy, timid and retiring.
Jadafisk 75

66. No, actually. Men were more likely to rate women realistically, but they primarily contacted the top third of women. Women’s ratings were less forgiving, but they contacted average men more often. That being said, women who initiate contact online are not going to be a representative sample of female online daters in general, because of many of the admonitions, worries and beliefs expressed in this very thread. Women who approach are going to have different traits from those who don’t. Those traits may include different preferences and expectations.

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
amy 76

@Evan: You say, “Being feminine still appeals to men, whether you like it or not.”

Well…that’s groovy, Ev, but what I’m saying is that the definitions of “feminine” and “treated well” appear to be changing. I mean they have changed, considerably, since we were kids, but it appears that change isn’t finished yet. And men who don’t make the shift are not going to be invited home. They’re already having trouble, if the stats in the NYer story are accurate. I don’t think men live singly voluntarily for long. I know an awful lot of women, though, who just have no interest in sharing living quarters with a man. Too much trouble, not worth it; they make cozy homes of their own.

You’re getting repeat “you’re disrespectful to women” messages on here from a rotating cast of people because…you’re being disrespectful to women. You can stand around insisting that you aren’t all you like, but I’d suggest you pay attention to the rabbi-and-the-drunk story. If what you’re saying works in your biz, and yet it’s also disrespectful to women…then you got a problem, and perhaps TIMTOWTDI. Boy, I haven’t used that acronym in a long time.

If a man insisted on being the aggressor, and wanted to block out that space as his own, I wouldn’t regard that as his treating me well. The whole “you do what I want you to do, face facts, that’s what I like” attitude — no, I don’t see how it’s attractive, respectful, etc. My daughter’s generation appears to be even less susceptible.

As for how effective I am in dating (are we seeing the return of the ad-hominem?): well, when I find a guy I really want to be with, then we can judge. In the meantime, no, I have no trouble getting dates when I want them, and there’s no shortage of men trying to get my attention online, despite the fact that my profile’s no-photo and not especially flirty, I’m over 40, I live in the middle of nowhere, and I’ve got the usual custodial-single-mother constraints. I’d say about half the men I talk to online are willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to meet me, or will buy me plane tix. (It killed me to turn down the Sundance guy, but I can’t take off on no notice like that. That sounded like fun, though, esp. to go for pleasure & not work.) It surprises me, but apparently there’s a lot of non-thrilling competition.

The strangest date? I got a Canadian concert pianist who says he’s flying to the major city nearest me & taking me to a bat mitzvah. And I’m thinking, okay, that’s weird, but sure, I was shul-shopping there anyway. Only after we hang up does it hit me: OMG, whose bat mitzvah is this? OMG! Do I have to eat gefilte fish and meet his parents before I fuck him? No!! (Turns out it’s the daughter of a hs friend, not his family. I’m still not eating gefilte fish, though.)
Evan Marc Katz 77

Actually, Amy, nobody said that I was being “disrespectful to women” until you did. I also didn’t realize that offering insight into how to better understand and connect with men was disrespectful. Is anything I say that remotely criticizes women’s behavior or beliefs disrespectful? Or is it anything that I say that you don’t agree with?

Either way, this is my blog and I’m a pretty reasonable guy who has a decent tolerance for dissent and playful argument. But your frequent jabs at me are making our interplay a lot less fun. If you’d given me your regular email address, I’d have written to you privately, but you didn’t, so I can’t.

Here’s the deal: stop insulting the host or you’re not going to be invited back to dinner.

Clearly, I can take a difference in opinion. I will not take being slandered on my own website. No more than you’d like it if your boss put a Post-It on your desk telling you that you were a pain-in-the-ass, thinks-she’s-cleverer than she really is, know-it-all with a faulty grasp of logic and worse understanding of the opposite sex.

That was disrespectful. Sorry. But you’re under an assumed name with a fake email address. This is my real name and I’m sick of having this conversation with you. Not when there are reasonable dissenters – on this thread even – who run no risk of being banned from this site.

So either can the insults or find another blog to haunt with your “women rule the world and men better LIKE it” philosophy.

It doesn’t play here, nor do I suspect it will play with most men – your protests about how popular you are notwithstanding. Part of the reason you can’t find any guy you like is because the really good guys – the ones who work hard, are emotionally available, and aren’t doormats – the guys like me, in other words, aren’t a good fit for you. In your mind, we’re not merely men. We’re misogynists. We’re pathetic. We’re needy. All because we prefer our women to be kind, feminine, optimistic, supportive, easygoing, patient, understanding, self-aware, loving and attractive.

Sorry, but that’s no crime.

Every man I know is looking for those qualities in a partner – and your refusal to understand and accept that is at the root of all of our conflict.

I wish you the best of luck in life and love, Sparky – I mean, Amy. I just don’t think we’re meant to be. No hard feelings.
Christie Hartman 78

Amy (76): “You’re getting repeat “you’re disrespectful to women” messages on here from a rotating cast of people because…you’re being disrespectful to women.”

I disagree. I can only think of one woman who ever said that, and she’s no longer commenting here. I don’t think Evan is disrespectful to women. If you want to see blogs that are, do some more searching on the web. They’re out there.
Paragon 79

@ 75

“Women’s ratings were less forgiving, but they contacted average men more often.”

Of course, what you failed to mention is that these “average” men weren’t average at all, considering this sample excluded %80 of men(which is the root of the problem in females rating male attractiveness – for women, the majority of men, simply don’t warrant a serious consideration).
Jadafisk 80

If they have average traits, they’re average. A minority doesn’t automatically constitute an elite. As I said, because so few women send messages, they may make different choices, and the traits of the women themselves may be different. There’s no proof that women who message first aren’t driven to do so by a lack of appeal/messages. The receptiveness of women to messages from men based on rating would need to be analyzed to get a bead on who the average woman is willing to consider, because the average woman is romantically passive. Luckily, that’s also in the blog post. Men of medium attractiveness level have a 50% rate of message success from women of medium attractiveness, while the most attractive men have a 65% rate from the same group. When an exceedingly attractive man messages a slightly less attractive woman than average, his success rate goes up precipitously to 80% success, and an average guy’s chances rise to 58% What about these results points to the exclusion of the majority of men by the majority of women?
Zaq 81

@75 Jadafish

Yes there is a problem with the inference from the OKCupid research.
In the similar study in freakonomics, we had exactly the same results with men. If you look at the graph you will see a straight line correlation of messages to attractiveness.

This shows that virtually all women are approached, but the volume of messages will depend on level of attractiveness. Would you expect otherwise ?
This is backed up by freakonomics and other studies. BUT the freakonomics study and other speed dating studies show that the women ONLY responded to the most attractive men. In other words reflecting the OKCupid finding that most men are not attractive to women. So there is something wrong here.

I have come on this thread late, but a couple of points.
I think Saint Stephen’s points are valid with regard to confidence, I don’t really agree with Karl here.
If a young man is physically attractive, he will have success with females which will lead to greater confidence leading to even greater success. Positive feedback loop.
A less attractive man will have a series of failures leading to a lack of confidence in a negative feedback loop.
The “fake it to make it” approach works but a good proportion of men have trouble with the rejection, and just accept the first woman that says yes. Is that why divorce rates are so high ?
A number of men in their 30s and up, overwhelmed by failure, just give up completely.

On the approaching point, I think men will have little trouble with attractive women approaching them. It may however screw up the chances of an average woman who may become more attractive when you get to know her.

In truth though, it is more natural for women to show they are available to be approached, and it is more natural for men to look for those signs before they approach.
If a woman smiles, flirts and especially touches a man, the guy is going to have to be pretty dense not to know that he has a chance. If a man approaches a woman that is attracted to him, she will instinctively lower her eyes for a second. Its an evolved submissive gesture that says ” I am not going to scratch out your eyes !”
Women do not need to approach if they are exhibiting “open for business signs”.
Truth though is that women’s main problem is not that men do not approach, but it is the WRONG men. She is not selling what they want to buy.
For men the problem can be women showing available signs when they are not actually interested.
Ruby 82

I’ve posted about this study before, but it seems relevant again here. In this study, a speed dating situation was set up. The researchers alternated having men approach women and then having women approach men. They found that whomever did the approaching was less choosy than the person who sat passively, whether male or female. Since men traditionally approach women, it would stand to reason that they would be less picky. Those who moved around approaching the opposite sex were also found to have more self-confidence.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=changing-the-dating-game
Androgynous 83

Evan, I think you are getting into a lot of strife with certain poster/s here due to your reference to “feminine power” and “feminine energy”. Absolutely no one who has bothered to read your post with an open mind would think for a second that you are disrespectful to women. However, your reference to certain terms are jumped upon by certain people very fixated in their views, and who would find words like “feminine” objectionable. These are the same people who would think a man who holds a door open for a woman without her permission is being “chauvinist” and presumptious. And a man who comes to a woman’s defence when she is being assaulted is fulfilling his male ego fantasies rather than genuinely trying to help someone in trouble. I really don’t think these people can be reasoned with since they will not be shaken from their views of the world. However, do realise that terms such as “feminine” is very loaded and can connote a lot of negative imagery in the minds of a number of fair minded people. Perhaps this may have arisen from the inverse of the word having been used to attack women who refuse to be bullied into submission, who refuse to keep silent in the face of injustice, who will not put up with abuse of themselves or others. I know your use of the word “feminine” has no ill intent but the word certainly is not as neutral as you may think.
amy 84

Evan, you routinely have to defend yourself here when it comes to, as you say, “turning my pro-women stance into something retro, 50′s, Stepford wife.” It’s routine to the point where you’ve had to address it in your blog rules.

Why do you figure that is? Could you be missing something? You’re insisting you’re pro-woman, but you’ve got women coming on here and saying, yeah, no, those attitudes aren’t so pro-woman. Who do you figure knows more about it? Maybe that dialogue is “I don’t mean to be disrespectful, and by my rules it’s not disrespectful,” and the women are saying, one way or another, “But it is.”

From the outside, this isn’t complicated. You serve what’s a shrunken, but still substantial, market segment: women who want so badly to get married that they’re willing to restyle their personalities and behavior to suit men, or at least to suit the men you define as “good guys” (meaning “guys like Evan”). Fine.

What’s happening to that segment? Apparently it’s still shrinking, for reasons that have to do with changes in women’s status and girls’ education over the last 40 years. My guess is that a third of adults are not living alone because they’re so hapless they can’t get married without help; it’s because they prefer it, or because the people they’d have married 40 years ago prefer it.

So then you gotta ask why. Obviously there’s a lot of dissatisfaction and loneliness; otherwise dating sites wouldn’t flourish. And yet a very large and growing minority of people still prefer loneliness to marriage, many of them after having been married. Your answer: They’re doing it wrong, and I can show them how to do it right. My reply: Maybe not. Maybe marriage, for a lot of people — women particularly — just isn’t such a hot deal.

Here’s what I don’t get: Why you take this personally, even though you’re hanging out claiming title to the Reason Throne, and talking about how this is a business. Look, Evan, if a guy like you came around and begged to marry me today, I’d say no. Not because he’s a lousy guy. I’m just not interested. I don’t want to be a wife, I don’t want to disrupt my life and my kid’s, I don’t want to take care of a man. I don’t want to be what a man like you wants a woman to be. I’m looking for very specific things when it comes to the men I do want in my life, and…I’m sorry, but you don’t get there, and I find romance is kind of a drag with the guys who don’t ring that bell, not worth trying. I’m sorry.

I’d be remarkably non-unique in saying these things.

If you looked at a picture like that and said: Yeah fine, I wouldn’t go for you anyway, toots, but it’s a big world with a lot of man/woman business in it, and I got my slice of it — then fine. Makes sense.

That’s not what you do, though. You go out attacking whatever doesn’t fit into that slice, and read dysfunction into what’s now a very large segment of the population. An unmarried woman’s busy with her career and has lots of friends, travels all over? My god, she must be miserable, or kidding herself! Now if that was just a matter of business – well, I’d find it offensive, and I’d still argue with it, but I’d get it. You want to defend and grow your market, who doesn’t.

But I suspect that’s not all that’s going on, here. I think you really take this personally, as a rejection — of you, of a lovely (if expensive) simplicity you’ve found in how to make relationships work, of a life you find good — and of your business, which is your baby. And I’m saying, baby, open up. The world has changed around you, women’s sense of themselves has changed: respect that. Your vision of what marriage is, how relationships work, these things were forged in the middle of major changes. Increasing numbers of women just aren’t down for what you’re selling, because there are real problems with saying, “Men want X, so just do X.” Your “kind, feminine, optimistic, supportive, easygoing, patient, understanding, self-aware, loving and attractive,” reads to an awful lot of women these days as “willing to be a man’s sexy mother in exchange for…not much she wants or needs, and maybe a lot of financial/career damage”. Assailing them for that, implying they’re commitmentphobes or selfish or sadly deluded or self-defeating or whatever, this is not helpful.

What it reminds me of: Print’s last gasp in the newspaper biz, back in the early ’00s when newspapers were attacking online culture: There’s no editors! It’s all garbage! Smart people would never get their news that way! An entire culture is at risk! Etc. And then, and then…they showed up online, they flailed around, they struggled with ways to monetize…and now I can’t remember the last time I bought a dead-tree newspaper, even though I read three papers daily.

So maybe you’d do well to look into how men can adjust to the new realities of women’s independence. It’s germane, and monetizable, so long as men want to be fathers. (After all, women can have babies without men; men, not so much without women.) The grade schools are already doing some of the work for you — the “Shafted” generation is already headed for retirement, or late middle age, anyway.

Just to recap some of the changes for women since you and I were kids:

Women are close to outearning men in half of 2-income households, despite persistent wage and hiring discrimination, esp. against mothers.
Women are better-educated than men.
Women run the EU, State, governors’ mansions, the IMF; women occupy judicial benches, etc etc.
Women have children on their own, from sperm banks, without shame.
Women divorce and stay single without shame.
Women stay childless without shame.
Women play serious contact sports at high levels.
Women play sports from toddlerhood into old age.
Women are wresting the professions around to their own interests: medicine now takes account of women’s health, etc.
Women look after their own money.

That’s a lot of change in 40 years. A lot. The effects are profound, tough to overestimate.

This thread was about who approaches whom and the effectiveness of that. You told Ashley — despite all the social changes above — to “stop being the man”. At least one other woman and I said, “Works for us, never had a problem with being bold, men dig it.” This is in-practice, man. Why argue with it? Why turn around and say, “That’s all wrong, and besides strong women don’t want men who have to be approached?” Hell, we approached them! Obviously we wanted them, or we wouldn’t have done that. I’ve had the actual sex, relationships, and marriage to prove it. I can point to many children who’re the result of such approaches. What’s the problem with saying, “Yeah, some men dig this, and some don’t”?

Also, again, the personal attacks mid-debate aren’t cool. I’ll email you a real address if you like (you’ve got my real name).
amy 85

Androgynous, I appreciate it when a man holds a door for me. (Or rises when I come to the table, or takes off his hat, or whatever.) It comes across as everything from courteous and respectful to dead sexy. But that still doesn’t mean I want to take care of him, change my behavior for him, or risk my financial security for him.

And I hold doors, too, because it seems rude not to. What I don’t like: when, at a double set of doors, the man holds the first one for me, then practically tackles me in an effort to get to the second door before I can reach for it myself.
Jadafisk 86

There’s definitely something wrong here, that’s for sure. Any delivery nurse, any teacher or pediatrician can tell you that most people born these days have average fathers. We’re not all the children of about 100,000 sexually promiscuous and indiscriminate modern day Ghengis Khans, left to be raised by Average Joes with a striking resemblance to us. The Okc study says that even the least attractive men have a one out of 10 chance of getting a reply from the most attractive women, and it only goes up from there for less disparate cases.
Evan Marc Katz 87

Amy, darling – You’re an amateur provocateur. That’s what you do. That’s your prerogative. But as I told you in a previous post, you’re hanging out in the WRONG place. Like being a vegetarian on a steak blog, you’re simply barking up the wrong tree.

This is a place for women who want to understand men, connect with men, be in relationships with men, and marry men. The fact that YOU don’t simply undercuts all the time you’re spending here, telling me that I’m wrong or missing something about the new world order. It makes absolutely no sense. You’re not gonna convince me that you’re right. You’re not going to convince the women who want to learn from me that you’re right. You’re just talking to hear yourself talk, to marvel at your own turns of phrase.

You want to educate the masses about the new world order? Start your own blog! You clearly have the passion, the skills, and the time. I think that would be best. Teach men how to adapt to independent women who don’t want to care for them. Sounds like it should be a big hit.

But as it stands, I feel like an abortion doctor who goes to work every day getting picketed by someone who would never use his services. Fine. I really don’t care. Just go away. Not because I’m threatened by you, afraid of you, intimidated by you, or can’t go toe-to-toe with you. But because it’s a waste of time. We’re talking over each other. You’re right for people like you. I’m right for the women who want to listen to me. And this ongoing thing has ceased being a pleasant diversion and has simply become a drain.

Whether you like it or not, I’m about as pro-woman as you’re gonna get. I spend more time talking to women than anyone I know. My closest relatives are my Mom, wife and sister. And THAT’s the only reason that you hear my ire and exasperation – because I’ve devoted my life to helping women…and here you come, shitting on every word I say from your ivory tower, telling me that I’m a misogynist who doesn’t get it.

I get it. But you don’t seem to. So I’m going to bid you adieu for the last time and hope that you let go of your anger as I continue to give advice for women who DO want to have happy relationships. There are plenty of awful men who make life miserable for women. I’m just not one of them. Goodbye.
Jewel 88

Evan, I get what you are saying and I believe it and live it. A lot of what you write is about the polarity and attraction of male/female energy. I had a male friend recently argue with me that he loves it when women approach him. But when I asked him if he fell in love with any of these women, the answer was a no and then a wry smile. He no doubt believes what you write as well
Paragon 89

@ 80

You’re correct – it was late, and I apparently misread something.

But, I concede my error.

However, I should add that the results are suprising, and inconsistent with other findings.

Also, context is everything – so it would be interesting to speculate on how the movations of female messagers were distributed(ie. genuine to their stated goals, boredom, or perhaps looking for a free dinner, lol).

I expect in the context of ‘intimate encounters’, the data would play out *very* differently.
Paragon 90

Amy, what you fail to realize is that your liberated female utopia is nothing near a stable trend, and thus, far from the
way of the future.

In fact, if one considers the apparent correlation between developed world populations( and sub replacement fertility(and the American exception – being at replacement – is hardly compelling, without being able to control for generational shifts in fertility – the so called tempo effect), the evidence suggests evolutionarily *instability*, and in such terms, it doesn’t speak particularly well of the femles who are representative of such a dynamic(hence the dysfunctional characterization).

Thus, I am happy to report that females residing in non-western populations really *do* tend to justify a reputation for being loyal, selfless and more agreeable than their western counterparts – if only because their socialization has its basis in less personal/economic freedom for women.

Lastly, I will repeat, that rank apologists such as yourself are *not* representative of his target demographic – individuals
who have reconciled that appealing to remote probability is *not* a reasonable strategy.

But rather, that one must take personal responsibility in influencing what dependent variables we can.

I would further like to add that anecdotes speaking to your self-professed market value are far from plausible, and reek of so much unjustified internet bravado.

So, I would give it a rest, as no one is buying it, and neither does it lend anything to your arguments.

@ 86

“There’s definitely something wrong here, that’s for sure. Any delivery nurse, any teacher or pediatrician can tell you that most people born these days have average fathers. ”

They can tell you anything, but it wouldn’t make them credible, without paternity tests across a sizable sample.

“he Okc study says that even the least attractive men have a one out of 10 chance of getting a reply from the most attractive women, and it only goes up from there for less disparate cases.”

Which means nothing, when taken outside a context of mating.

Further, it disagrees not only with other *independent*(ie. more credible) studies have found, but also with what one should expect given our understanding of how sexual evolution has shaped mating behaviors to be (predictably) sexually dimorphic.
Helen 91

Paragon 90: whoa, WTF?

“it doesn’t speak particularly well of the females who are representative of such a dynamic (hence the dysfunctional characterization).”

Since when is it women’s duty to have more than 2.1 children (the replacement rate)? One could argue that women who don’t have that many are doing the world a favor, as there is a real danger of overpopulation and dwindling natural resources. Your comment shows a remarkable ignorance of the global ecological system, juxtaposed with irrational notions of what constitutes “right” or “wrong” in reproduction. It isn’t the moral duty of humans to reproduce exponentially. To do so, when we’re saving more infant and childhood lives than ever (a good and humane thing), is irresponsible.

“Thus, I am happy to report that females residing in non-western populations really *do* justify a repuation for being loyal, selfless” blah blah blah

“Happy to report”? Clearly you have no first-hand knowledge. Women in many of these countries endure forced sex and rape, lack of access to birth control, low education, high maternal and infant mortality rates… need we go on? Hardly an ideal situation for women anywhere in the world. The fact that they have more children is certainly no proof that they are more loyal and selfless – what an idiotic notion. They are more powerless. But maybe that’s how you like your women.
Paragon 92

“Since when is it women’s duty to have more than 2.1 children (the replacement rate)?”

Who’s saying that?

Besides,it may be of interest, that when controlled for immigration, and downward age trends in fertility, even the US is predicted to fall into the sub-replacement zone.

“One could argue that women who don’t have that many are doing the world a favor, as there is a real danger of overpopulation and dwindling natural resources.”

It would make for a poor argument, as female fertility trends are mediated by selfish evolutionary concerns(not selfless ones – read the selfish gene).

“It isn’t the moral duty of humans to reproduce exponentially.”

Strawman.

““Happy to report”? Clearly you have no first-hand knowledge. Women in many of these countries endure forced sex and rape, lack of access to birth control, low education, high maternal and infant mortality rates… need we go on?”

Sure, indulge yourself with non-sequiturs.

“Hardly an ideal situation for women anywhere in the world.”

Which wasn’t the argument, now was it?

Please remember that because of the nature of sexual evolution, males and females do tend to have conflicting evolutionary goals, despite that margin where they find some necessary agreement.

“The fact that they have more children is certainly no proof that they are more loyal and selfless – what an idiotic notion.”

Who said it was?

It is only proof that they are not a factor in sub-replacement fertility.

“They are more powerless. But maybe that’s how you like your women.”

No, I merely want my women to be less like you.
S. 93

I’ve never commented here but I’ve been thinking about your blog entry for a few days so here goes. I think that I don’t really understand your advice, Evan. I willingly admit I don’t understand it. I thought I knew what it meant when you say, “Cross the room near him. Plant yourself within eyeshot of him. Turn. Smile. Make eye contact. Look away. Flip your hair. You’re essentially giving him every opening to approach YOU. If he does, then YOU’RE in control. If he doesn’t, he’s not interested.” But upon reading again, I’m not really sure.

I don’t feel powerful when I do it this artificially. I don’t flip hair. My hair doesn’t flip. I smile at people sometimes but not men I don’t know. I live in a big city and well, I learned early on not to smile at men you don’t know unless I wanted them following me home. My point: The way you put it would make me feel like an actress playing a part. It wouldn’t feel powerful to me at all because it’s just not my normal way of being in the world. It would just feel awkward and fake. What about the women where this doesn’t feel fun or natural? Would you still advise us to do this anyway? Wouldn’t it just make things worse if you’re uncomfortable with it?

You ask in your article: Why do something that isn’t working for you?

Well, the alternative you suggest just feels weird to some women. There’s just this visceral thing in me that says, “No!” to some of your advice. I know you are trying to help women. I truly feel you only mean to help. Is there other advice for women who feel this visceral reaction? You meet a lot of different kinds of women, right? Am I the only one resistant to this kind of change? Why can’t women just ‘not like it’ the way you describe in comments men not liking women to approach them? What if some women don’t always like or understand this way of being approachable? I understand the alternative, but still. If you don’t like something and do it anyway, that’s false, no?

I guess your advice is by displaying these behaviors as a woman, you cast a wide net, in the hopes that someone compatible is attracted to you by your being approachable. But for me in the meantime I’m doing something awkward, attracting a lot of men I don’t want, and feeling pretty foolish and not myself while doing all this. That’s what I’m risking by just deciding to do any of this. It’s not as simple for me to do as it may seem. I wish men understood this. I’m not trying to be disrespectful or deliberately obtuse or anything here in my comment. For me it’s just really is not always simple or fun to do this. I’m just a random, confused reader here. I am probably not your ‘target audience’ but I do read your blog and for all you know could become your client tomorrow. (I’d never mention this comment, though. ) I hope by writing this someone will really understand what I’m trying to say.
Jadafisk 94

“Further, it disagrees not only with other *independent*(ie. more credible) studies have found”

Can you cite me? I’d like to check it out.

Results from a collection of studies measuring paternity discrepancy (whether people’s fathers are indeed genetically theirs) give a median of 3.7%.
Evan Marc Katz 95

Okay, S. Don’t do it. It’s just my advice, that’s all. Not everyone has to like it, agree with it, or use it. My suggestion is simply that it’s usually effective. I didn’t invent it. I’ve read it. I’ve seen it. I’ve been drawn in by it. If you find another way of attracting men that’s more effective, by all means, let me know what it is and I’ll be glad to share it with women who also feel that my advice doesn’t work for them. Personally, I don’t think directly approaching a guy is the answer, but who knows, that might work for you… Sounds to me like online dating might be your ticket, just like it was mine. Unless there’s something about that that isn’t “natural” to you either.
Karl R 96

S. said: (#93)
“I smile at people sometimes but not men I don’t know. I live in a big city and well, I learned early on not to smile at men you don’t know unless I wanted them following me home.”

Practice. Practice making eye contact and smiling at people (men and women). Practice smiling until it feels completely natural and unforced.

I live in a large city, and women make eye contact and smile at me. I’ve never followed one home just because she smiled at me once.

I have followed a couple home eventually, but that was with a direct invitation.

If you’re serious about dating, you want a man to eventually come home with you (or vice versa). Smiling at him keeps that option open.

S. said: (#93)
“But for me in the meantime I’m doing something awkward, attracting a lot of men I don’t want, and feeling pretty foolish and not myself while doing all this.”

You will always attract men that you don’t want.

Example: I only find 5% of women to be interesting. Therefore, I don’t want 95% of the women whom I attract. If I attract 10 women, I won’t want 9 or 10 of them. If I attract 100 women, I won’t want 95 of them.

But by attracting 95 women that I don’t want, I’ve attracted about 5 women that I do want. If I only attract 10 women, there’s a strong possibility that I didn’t attract any that I want.

In the long run, which is worse: attracting more men that you don’t want, or never attracting the man that you do want?

I felt really awkward and foolish the first time I asked a woman for her phone number. (I’d never done it before.) It became easier with practice. That’s true of everything.

Click on the link in my name. It pulls up a YouTube video of me dancing with my fiancée. Every time I learn a new dance move, I have to practice it about 50 times before it stops looking awkward and clumsy. Some dancers try to avoid looking awkward and clumsy (and feeling foolish for being awkward and clumsy). In dance class, we call these people “slow learners.”

I’ll make it even simpler. Find one man per day that you find attractive, make eye contact with him, and smile. You don’t need to approach him. Come back in two months and tell me if it still feels awkward and unnatural.
Soul Sister 97

This has been a very interesting thread although it’s been a while since I visited..why? Because I followed Evan’s advice and I am busy with MY BOYFRIEND! I am 50, I am a feminist, I make 6 figures, I am attractive (for a 50 yr old!), and I prided myself on men telling me I was “Too much woman for them” right before they dumped me.
Something had to change. I bought Evan’s ebook, and actually put in my on-line profile “I make a mean clam sauce liguine” instead of “I will kick your ass in poker” (thanks Evan, that tidbit from your blog increased my hits tenfold!). I stopped approaching men and let them approach me. I indicated interest and then stepped back. I finally accepted that “you are too much woman for me” meant “you are too much MAN for me”. I knocked the feminist chip off my shoulder and found out…..

That more men liked me when I was more feminine, less aggressive….my pool just got larger.
That I liked it when I was more feminine and gave them more control! I have enough areas of my life where I am 100% in control.
That I can still perform and kick ass at my job every day (but my job doesn’t sleep with its arms around me at night).
That I don’t have to defer to a man to be in a committed, respectful relationship, I just have to let him be the man.
That I can have my cake and eat it too! I just had to quit trying to make sure it knew every moment that “you’re not the boss of me”.
My friends love when I go out with them occasionally; I was their “man magnet”. Note: I am not more attractive than they are. I just finally got better results. I did not approach men, but I did draw them to me. I did exactly as Evan says. I walk in with confidence, I make sure I look positive and happy, and I am very mindful of the men in the room. When one catches my attention, I see if I can catch his eye. Then I hold his gaze for a moment or two, I give him a smile, and I look away. About half the time, here he comes with all his friends and the party starts. The other half of the time, he looks away and that is that. I don’t worry about whether or not he rejected me, I am too busy getting to know the ones that hightailed it over to me! And now I have the confidence to know if we break up, I can repeat the same results and have a blast doing it! It is much more fun being a man magnet than a man repellent….just saying!
Paragon 98

“Can you cite me? I’d like to check it out.”

You’re already familiar with the freakanomics data, no?

Predictably, studies showing the skewed nature of online dating are hard to come by, as there is little incentive to promote such findings.

Thus, I think the best way to reach reliable conclusions, is to unify independent data, with personal observation(including some impromptu control group studies using your service of choice), and intuition.

“Results from a collection of studies measuring paternity discrepancy (whether people’s fathers are indeed genetically theirs) give a median of 3.7%.”

Yes, I’m familiar with that: “A 2005 scientific review of international published studies of paternal discrepancy found a range in incidence from 0.8% to 30% – median 3.7%”

But, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

That it doesn’t happen enough to be concerned about?
Jadafisk 99

From the perspective of “Women are naturally inclined towards this mating strategy?” Yes. Where’s the cuckoldry, if it’s not in the kids? What significant evolutionary impact could it actually make if women aren’t having offspring with these superior specimens at a rate any higher than 4%?
justme 100

Thank you Karl.

I’m shy to the bone. People who meet me now never think of me as shy and it is because I practiced talking to people. However the shy me is still alive and well and I frequently feel awkward and clumsy. I always think about going to a group event and I see myself being smooth, graceful. I have anxiety and crowds bring it out so when I go, I am NEVER smooth or graceful. I’m stilted, uncomfortable. I recognize myself in your “slow learner”. I will follow your advice and start practicing today to smile at people. Thank you again.
Paragon 101

“From the perspective of “Women are naturally inclined towards this mating strategy?” Yes. Where’s the cuckoldry, if it’s not in the kids? What significant evolutionary impact could it actually make if women aren’t having offspring with these superior specimens at a rate any higher than 4%?”

It is significant, and varyingly so(look at the spread) – and, at the moment, we can only speculate on some of the contributing factors.
Jadafisk 102

Believe me, I see the spread – I also see where the preponderance of data lies is if the median is 3.7%, as opposed to 15%. What rate would you have to see to concede the absence of significant levels of genetically based desire among women to have the offspring of a “better” man than the one they chose for life (I’ll let you have the unfounded assumption that ALL of these outside guys are indeed titans of industry and underwear instead of contemporaries in mediocrity), and their effectiveness at clandestinely having sexual liaisons with these men on a regular basis <b>in order to specifically bear their progeny.</b> Because if they’re doing their damndest, they’re absolutely horrible at it as it stands – how much less effective would they have to be? Would that median rate have to be .8% for you to believe that it’s not a habit?
M 103

It is seriously unfortunate that Ashley has been unsuccessful in the specific efforts she describes. That is true for both genders and she has experienced what millions and millions of men experience constantly – rejection.

If she tries the get close, smile, flip hair, look away routine and the guy does not ask her out, by no means does that establish he’s not interested. He may not be, or he may be. But in the latter case what he really may not be interested in is getting rejected. This may come as a shock to some women but some men get really, really tired of rejection and can only take so much of it.

Hair flipping and other “signals” are completely unreadable, a guarantee of nothing to a man and not a substitute for saying actual words that come out of your mouth to the effect of hey, let’s get together.

I commend Ashley for taking the adult, head-on approach and I am sorry it didn’t work out.
Paragon 104

OK, lets clarify a few things first.

First, you are assuming that marriage – from the female position – connotes an intention to mate for life.

Perhaps I am more cynical than you are, or you are merely not familiar with the term ‘starter marriage’.

Secondly, a variance of success across samples is reasonably what we should expect with respect to any evolutionary strategy like this, which is sensitive to favorable conditions.

And, at this moment, without diving further into the data, I can only speculate on what some of these factors might be.

Thirdly, my intuition tells me that statistical data hasn’t yet caught up with what happening in the mating landscape - namely that since the % of unmarried males(in particular) is increasing we are experiencing some strategic turnover from extrapair mating, to one where many women are instead marrying(or cohabiting – for increasingly short durations) many of these same men who they might otherwise have cheated *with*, while married to some hapless mark who now no longer even warrants their consideration.

In, any case, the measured rates of paternal discrepancy, really says nothing about relative advantage(again, evolution is sensitive to any measurable significance) of a hypothetical sample of ‘choice’ males.

Lastly, you are making the mistake that these evolutionary strategies are more subject to rationality, than the *other way around*(ie. these strategies are effective where correlated with reproductive fitness, whether this correlation is conscious or not).
S. 105

Thanks, Evan and Karl for responding to my comment. Karl, I’ve given your response (96) quite a bit of thought the past few days. I will try what you suggested in your last paragraph. I mean it’s not a lot to lose, right?
I do realize I don’t trust many men I don’t know. Why? Most of my life I’ve been trying to put out the energy that I don’t want to sleep with men. I don’t want to lead men on. And it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me. So the vibe I’m putting out is honest and true. When I find a man I do want I have a rather high sex drive. But that guy has to pass a lot of barriers with me before we ever get to that point. Most men I’ve dated were my friends first or met through friends.
So I don’t really look at men I don’t know in that way. And the vibe I put out with people is very neutral and non-sexual. Makes sense that that is what I get back. It feels safe to me and I don’t think I’m going to change myself completely in that respect in one month. (I’m giving it a month.)
But I did try yesterday to even look at men on the street. I didn’t find anyone attractive but there is always tomorrow. And I’ll try to find some activities where I feel more comfortable and might even meet the same men again. Maybe some volunteer activity? I do think it’s important that I start where I feel comfortable and take baby steps with this. I know me and that’s how I’m getting myself to try. At least I’m trying.
I did realize that I am pretty guarded with people I don’t know. For me it feels safe. Sure, in reality it probably is all very safe. But it’s hard for me to explain to men how unsafe you feel as a single woman on the streets so I’m not going to try here. It may just a perception but there it is. So we’ll see, Karl.
I will report back to this post in one month.
Karl R 106

S. said: (#105)
“I don’t trust many men I don’t know.”

I grew up in Detroit. I don’t trust anybody I don’t know. I don’t trust some of the people I do know.

But I don’t have to trust someone to smile at them.

S. said: (#105)
“it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me.”
“vibe I put out with people is very neutral and non-sexual.”
“It feels safe to me”

Put yourself in the man’s shoes for a minute.

You don’t find most men attractive. So the odds of a man getting turned down by you is what? 90%? Even higher?

The safe bet (for men) is to avoid asking you out.

If everybody plays it safe, nobody dates. The men who are successful at dating take some risks. They mitigate their chance of getting turned down/rejected/snubbed by avoiding women who are highly likely to turn them down.

If you avoid making eye contact and won’t smile at me, you’ve just signaled to me that you’re definitely not interested in me. Why would a man approach you if you’ve just told him that you’re not interested? Only the most socially clueless men will ignore that signal.

S. said: (#105)
“But it’s hard for me to explain to men how unsafe you feel as a single woman on the streets so I’m not going to try here.”

I grew up in Detroit. I live in another major city now. I was violently assaulted in broad daylight by four teenagers about four years ago. (And that wasn’t the first time.)

I’m guarded and unwelcoming on the street.

Who tries to approach women on the street? (Besides panhandlers.)

I met women at church, yoga, online, at the dance studio or while out dancing. With the exception of online dating, women would be surrounded by other people when I approached them. I wanted the women to see me interacting with others before they met me.

A smart man wants you to feel safe when he approaches you.

But these are all environments where there are multiple women. I wasn’t wasting my time with women who were clearly letting me know they weren’t interested.

S. said: (#105)
“Maybe some volunteer activity?”

I’ve heard that volunteer activities don’t tend to attract many single men.

S. said: (#105)
“I do think it’s important that I start where I feel comfortable and take baby steps with this.”

If you want to make progress, you’ll have to start where you feel slightly uncomfortable. And when you get comfortable with that, your next step is something else that seems slightly uncomfortable.
Paragon 107

“ And it is difficult for me to find men that are attractive to me.”

“ But I did try yesterday to even look at men on the street. I didn’t find anyone attractive but there is always tomorrow.”

To be honest, it sounds like you are so selective(typically so?), that you are always going to be competing with other women for the affections of a very small pool of select males, *unless* you can learn to find some subset of males attractive that more attractive women don’t(otherwise the men you find attractive are always going to have *lots* of female attention, and thus, obvious options – making the prospects for a LTR problematic, at best).
Helen 108

Karl R wrote: “If you want to make progress, you’ll have to start where you feel slightly uncomfortable. And when you get comfortable with that, your next step is something else that seems slightly uncomfortable.”

This is good advice for life in general. We need to challenge ourselves in every aspect of our lives to avoid stagnation. Yes, it may be uncomfortable, but the satisfaction and happiness you derive from simply trying, and from overcoming your own obstacles, is worth it.
Nicole 109

@S,
I’m a single woman and I have never understood the women who insist that being a woman is fraught with so much danger.

I’ve been in just about every major city in the U.S. and lot internationally and I’ve been on subways, buses, train stations, out at night, pretty much anything you can imagine, all by myself. And I’m still alive and have never been harmed.

A lot of this defensiveness is in your head.

Like Karl said, people who want to attack you will attack you. Having a penis doesn’t make you bulletproof so I don’t think muggers really care.

So your experience is your experience but it sounds like Karl, who has been the victim of crime, has more reason to be nervous than you, and that is independent of his chromosomes, so I think he DOES get it more than me, a fellow woman who does not feel danger at every turn.
S. 110

Well, Karl and others. I said I would try and I will. So all of your good arguments I already had in my head and came to an answer on my own.
I guess . . . I just go about life a lot not thinking about dating, really. I never even think about turning a guy down because I’m not thinking about dating, guys, or any of that on the street. Some of it is guardedness. Some of it is habit. Habits are hard to break, but I’m willing to try.
When I’ve liked a man, I’ve told him. So I’ve either been living my life or I’ve initiated with the men I wanted. They were usually friends and I knew them for a while before dating. The reason I’m considering a change is curiosity. I honestly didn’t realize that men were waiting for some sort of non-verbal signal from me. When I like them, I tell them. I thought it would work vice versa.
So I guess it’s hard for me to put myself in their place? If I’m not making eye contact or smiling, it’s because I’m running late to work, forgot to pick up milk before the store closes, thinking about whether I have a fresh t-shirt for the gym . . . my mind is on a hundred other things. Does it mean I’d turn someone down? I don’t even know. My mind would be on whether I have milk the next day. I know it sounds strange but it’s kind of hard to change gears. I have sort of a one-track mind when on the go. Doesn’t mean I’m uninterested, just not in that mode on the street. Hey, I own that maybe this is just me. I don’t blame men for not approaching me. I just don’t expect people to be interested while I’m walking on the street or going about my day.
As for men being attractive? I don’t know. I guess I like getting to know men first, that’s what attracts me. The street thing might not work for me. But who knows? I just have to come out of my own little world a bit.
I’m willing to try it because why not? I know it will be a bit uncomfortable, but again I said I’ll try anyway. So you don’t have to convince me! I will try and let you know how it turns out. I’m just going to smile and take it from there.
M 111

S, I like your post. I would only say that I, and I suspect many others, would welcome a verbal approach. Non-verbal “signals” mean nothing to me.
Joe 112

S: you can’t trust someone you don’t know, but you can’t get to know them unless you let them get to know you too.

Also, if you’re having trouble actually meeting men, and don’t want to go the online route, there’s no better way to meet men than getting involved in activities that are generally male-dominated, but accepting of women. Things like:
• Geeky stuff, like scifi/fantasy, computers/video games, or F2F games (D&D, et al.).
• Cars/motorsports.
• Guns/shooting sports.
• Sports in general.

Despite a few activities (like American football), there really are very few activities where men actively don’t want women to participate with them. Because there are relatively few women into these things, the guys are very welcoming of women–they’ll help you out as a newbie in the hope you’ll stick around–men do like women to be involved in their activities.
M 113

Just think of all the potentially great relationships that could have happened in this world if at specific moments in their lives, women had stepped up and asked a man out. For the droves of get-togethers that would have gone nowhere, there would have been a sizable number that ended in marriage and happiness.

Women are strong and perfectly capable in every other aspect of life and it boggles my mind that somehow it’s OK for them to be wallflowers in this area.

Men will do a lot of asking out because they have no choice but they will only do so much. If, say, I’ve had three rejections in a month or two, I may not try again for quite a while because the rejections take a heavy emotional toll on me. That business about, oh, “don’t take it personal” – yeah, right. IT’S PERSONAL when you are in effect told you’re not good enough to spend time with someone.

So men can only do so much of that. Intellectually I also find myself highly bothered by having to do all the asking. I find it degrading and demeaning to constantly have to beg women to spend time with me. I’m always thinking why don’t YOU do some of this?
Margo 114

It’s best to let the man doing the asking out. If he’s a man and he wants you, it won’t be a problem. If he doesn’t want you enough, he won’t ask. You will run into the occasional man with who is shy or who has some type of mental, anxiety or emotional problem. But guess what? If you chase him down and get him, you have to deal with his problem! Women would do well to remember the saying, “Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.”
M 115

Margo, let’s reduce this to its simplest form. How would YOU like it if throughout your entire life, if you wanted ANYTHING to do with the opposite sex, you had to do the asking, the planning of the date, the driving, the paying, and the follow up calling, all the while with a rejection far more likely to come your way than from you to the other person. I don’t think you’d like it one bit. And what does “If he’s a man” mean?
Joe 116

If you want men to be the man, i.e. do all the traditional things men have done, you have to be the woman and do all the traditional things women have done in the past. If there’s something traditional you don’t want to do, you can be guaranteed that there’s something traditional men won’t want to do.
Michael17 117

As a guy who works out, I appreciate it when a woman approaches me after a set complimenting me. I take that as a compliment, and if I am interested, I can take it from there. If I am not interested, I will still be nice. And I will acknowledge you the next time I see you.

But, there’s no reason to come on too strong. If you do, I will suspect something is up. Why are you trying so hard? You already separated yourself from most other women by being proactive. That’s enough and I know what to do next. Much more than that is too much and is a turn-off.
S. 118

I’m not sure if anyone is still following this post. But it’s a month later and I thought I’d check in for posterity’s sake. I learned a lot with my little experiment. Let me try to sum it up.

What I Did

So I took Evan and Karl’s advice. I read all the books. I read Why He Disappeared. I read Mama Gena. I read Have Him at Hello. Have Him at Hello spoke to me more than the other titles, I must admit, but all the themes are similar. I feel I do understand what attracts men to women. I knew this before reading the books! This is stuff my mama told me and her mama told her. It’s not rocket science. But I learned something else. I wasn’t thinking about what I knew about men. I was thinking about me. And why not? I’m a single woman. I live my life for my own pleasure and happiness. It’s served me well. And I don’t exactly want to change.

I realized something else! As I read the books, I remembered Evan’s quote. “Stop being a guy.” But guess what? I like being like the guy. The more I read about men the more I realized my thoughts were more like men than the women in examples. As I read the advice about men, I kept saying, “That’s me! That’s what I want!” I want someone easy! I want to pursue. I do! So that’s why I do. The thing is I get bored really easily. And I’m drawn to men who aren’t as assertive as I am socially. I think I want someone like am, but when I really, really thought about it, no, I don’t. (See, I totally get why men don’t either!) So that’s why all the advice hit me with this visceral “No!” Instinctively, I realized I *do* have to be a bit more forward since the men I’m drawn to are more passive. If I waited for them, I’d get bored and lose whatever attraction I have for them while waiting.

So that’s good to know! I do think Evan’s advice is good for most women. And I did try it. I tried a new hairstyle, I bought a few new outfits. Smiling was hard and I’m still working on that. I’ve been told my smile is very engaging so I do not turn the wattage of that up very often. Honestly? Although I’m more aware of the men around me, I don’t find most men attractive. I’m not as into looks so it’s hard. Some guys are cute but gosh, somehow so many men are younger than me too! How’d that happen?

I have been having fun and I have learned that men like different hair than I like and well, are more openly visual than women are. It’s difficult. I haven’t had men falling over me to ask me out. But more men have held doors open for me, I have had more casual conversations with men in the past few weeks, and I just interact more with men than just tucking my head in a book as had been my habit. Occasionally, (if I smile) a man might stop in his tracks and say hello. So that stuff does work if you’re comfortable with it. Sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not.

What I Learned

So I will give it another month, especially as the weather gets warmer. I think for any advice to work you really have to internalize it. I don’t think anyone reads something in a book, hears something from a friend, or even hears something from someone they pay for advice and goes right out and just does it. At least I don’t. I have to find a way to do this that works for me. And I’m finding my way. So a lot of revelations and a lot of things I’ve learned. And I’ve made my peace with the fact that deep inside I like the passive ones (I think they are sweet, kind and adorable, but yes, achingly slow.) I need to remind myself of that. I’ll take the good with the bad with that type because I like the good.

Thanks, all!

ETA: One thing that the author of Have Him At Hello finally made clear to my head. If you become more friendlier, more feminine whatever it is to men it’s not about changing your whole personality. It’s just about changing the perception of who you are a little so that the person asks you out a second time. It’s supposedly temporary until a man has time to really get to know you. This is important. In her interviews men often didn’t ask women out again based on what they thought their date was, not who she really was. I say supposedly temporary because like I said earlier, being more approachable/appealing to men is something one has to internalize. It’s not as simple as putting on lipstick and going out the door. At least not for some of us. Even during this month–I wasn’t even dating anyone yet–I kept asking, when can I stop this? When can I go back to who I really am? I’m not sure when. I do feel it is a bit of bait and switch but . . . that’s why I’m tweaking the advice. My hair may swing and I may flash my most friendliest warmest smile ever. The first impression might be this warm, cuddly armful of sweet womanhood. Which isn’t entirely untrue. But! When I talk there is just enough sass so that men know there is a thinking woman beneath the flowy dress and curls, mister! She won’t break your balls, but she has a mind of her own. It’s a subtle distinction but I really, really had to be clear on all of this before I went out in the world with these new thoughts. I’m really glad I read Have Him at Hello and that the author made that point clear.
Karl R 119

S. said: (#118)
“Occasionally, (if I smile) a man might stop in his tracks and say hello. So that stuff does work if you’re comfortable with it. Sometimes I am and sometimes I’m not.”

A month ago you weren’t comfortable with it. Period. You’ve made progress from where you were a month ago (#93).

S. said: (#118)
“like I said earlier, being more approachable/appealing to men is something one has to internalize.”

I would say that you’ll see some results even when you’re just acting. You’ll see better results when you’ve practiced it enough to internalize it. But you’re practicing this stuff and seeing results. That’s what I was trying to encourage.
S. 120

Wow, you really keep track of these threads, Karl! Thanks for your encouragement.

Yep, I’m a bit more comfortable, but I had to WORK at being comfortable. It was not easy and still isn’t easy. I think being this way will always be an effort for me.

But that doesn’t mean it’s an effort not worth making. Just sometimes I feel like it and sometimes I don’t.

And sure, there are some results. But I had to really think about some of the points made above before I could do it. It may seem simple but for me, it was not. Fortunately, I found a way to have fun with it some of the time. It’s an interesting experiment with nothing to really lose so why not?

I will be back next month. You were right about giving it two months.
Nicole 121

I think Evan was spot on here as was Steve (#4). OP – If the roles were reversed you would not feel you owed the man any type of straightforwardness or explanation, so unless you suffer from severe histronic narcissitic personality disorder, why not a two way street? Also implying he is a jerk just sounds like bitter sour grapes.
dave 122

The numers show that fewer guys are approaching women. Good! Let the
women taste some of this rejection and even up the odds. Oh, they don’t want that? They want it tilted for them? Gee, that’s fair!