I Lost a Lot of Weight But Resent All the Men Who Now Find Me Attractive

Evan Marc Katz

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Dear Evan,

I lost 60 pounds (hooray!) and physically I am a completely different person. Before the dramatic weight loss, I didn’t really go out to try to find dates. I’m 23 and have never even “talked” to a male let alone go out with one. Being overweight made me very self-conscious physically and since no males ever showed interest in me, I never gave the effort to pursue.

Now, I’ve been fairly OK with never dating: I have career/education goals and I’ve always been independent and very able to take care of myself. Having someone romantically in my life just seemed like another thing to put on my plate. But seeing as 77% of my friends (I did the math!) are married and the other 23% are in serious relationships, I thought maybe I should think about doing the whole “dating” thing. In the past, I would go out to social events with my friends but never had any males approach me. Of course I assumed it was because of my physical appearance, but I always thought “oh well, their loss.” Now I go out with friends and I get bombarded by men, especially since I’m the only one in the group unattached.

I feel cocky to say this, but I know I have a great personality. I have goals, I’m ambitious, educated, really sweet and caring, very funny (I think everyone I know can attest to that,) patient, and just all around pretty easy going. I want to start dating, but I can’t get past the thought, “You know, this guy wouldn’t even give me the time of day if I were still fat.” What can I do to get rid of this or work past it? I know you say that physical attraction really does matter to men, but I have a pretty awesome personality and I want that to be, if not of most, of high importance. Please give me some insight! I’m pretty sure asking every guy that approaches me, “would you talk to me if I were fat?” is not the best way to go about things.

Thanks!
Sandra

Dear Sandra,

There’s an intelligent, successful, charming bachelor in his 40′s. Let’s call him George Clooney.

So George, sick of women throwing themselves at him because his rich and famous, decides to go undercover. He grows out his beard, he gains weight, he starts wearing ripped sweatpants wherever he goes. He’s the exact same guy underneath, but it’s really important that a woman want him for HIM – not just for the dashing image he projects and the life he can provide.

We can’t separate looks from the package. It’s PART of the package, whether we like it or not.

Now, George looks like a homeless man and goes to bars to talk to women. He still has great knowledge of Darfur, Edward R. Murrow, and the politics behind oil. He can still turn a phrase and crack a joke. He still has an amazing smile. He just can’t talk about being an Academy Award winner, lest anyone value him for something superficial. It would probably not surprise you that George would struggle in his quest for love. He may blame women for not valuing him as a homeless man as much they did as an actor – but he’d be the one losing out.

And that’s where you’re boxing yourself in, Sandra. See, we can’t separate looks from the package. It’s PART of the package, whether we like it or not. A store might have amazing and classy merchandise, but if there’s a misspelled sign outside, flyers on the window, and graffiti on the door, you might not go in to find out. Is that YOUR fault for judging the book by its cover? No, it’s the store’s fault for not realizing that looks matter.

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178 Comments »Filed Under Dating

178 Responses to “I Lost a Lot of Weight But Resent All the Men Who Now Find Me Attractive”

1. starthrower68 1

   Oh gee here I go being first again. Yes, I literally do carry a notebook computer with me for school work. But I digress.

   Evan, I can sympathize with this young lady. I just put myself on Weight Watchers as I have a significant amount of weight I want to loose. I also am very mindful of the position you present as well and I think both sides have valid points. I guess the best we can do is realize that men aren’t attracted to women exactly the same way women are attracted to men.

   I think for those of us who struggle with weight and are successful/in the process of being successful at losing it, it stings our pride. Just because we were/are heavy doesn’t make us any less as people. We are still intelligent, erudite, busy, and contributing members of society. We have a lot to offer. But men are attracted to what they are attracted to, whether cosumerism has taught them to be that way or whatever. This is something I’m struggling with. Our pride makes us want to say, “If I wasn’t good enough for you as a heavy person, then I’m not going to be good enough for you now as the only difference is, I’m thin”. Yet we would shoot ourselves in the foot by doing that.

   One more thought. I wonder if the OP may have used the weight as a means to keep male attention away from her. I have done that. It’s easy to hide behind. If I am heavy, men won’t be attracted to me, ergo I do not risk rejection. If I’m thin and men pursue me, then there’s greater chance of being hurt. I understand where this girl is coming from and like her, I know it’s a defeatist way of looking at things so like her, I’m working on the root issue. I wish her the best of luck and I’d love to know what plan she followed!

2. Jenny 2

   Use your body to get him, use your mind to keep him.

3. Cilla 3

   There is a certain amount of emotional padding that comes with weight, whether intentional or not (even subconsciously). Sandra will have to go through the process of feeling how the loss of that padding changes her and how others perceive her. It is a big reason why people who undergo surgical weight loss procedures have mandatory psychological counseling before and after surgery.

   I commend her for losing the weight. She must be ready on some level to deal with the emotional issues related to the change or she would not have been so successful it. What it says to me is that she has enough self worth to feel she deserves to be healthy and attractive. That’s a good place to start. If she takes that heightened self-esteem into the dating world, she will eventually find someone who appreciates all of her.

   She will be able to discern superficial men from those who are more genuine. Not that looks aren’t a natural part of dating and attraction. But it is important, if she is looking for a more permanent mate, to find someone that values her inner beauty above all of her other assets. Otherwise, if she gains back some of the weight (possible if she has children, goes through a big life change, etc.), he will disappear because he was with her for the wrong reasons.

4. Honey 4

   I would wonder if she used weight as an excuse to hide behind, as well. I knew a girl in college who gained a bunch of weight on purpose so that men wouldn’t hit on her.

   And there are plenty of guys out there who either don’t mind, or are extremely attracted to, heavy women. So I don’t buy the idea that it prevented her from having relationships altogether. She could have found a “chubby chaser” or dated a fellow who was everything she was personality/career/education-wise, but a little heavy as well. Since she didn’t, I have to wonder if she holds a little double standard here?

   But I agree that she should be proud of and enjoy the new body she worked so hard for – and realize that most people with great bodies do work hard for them as well, even if there was never a point when they were heavy.

   Honey´s last blog post…What Flattery Will Get You

5. Hadley Paige 5

   Hey Sandra,

   Congradulations on finding the dark lining in the silver cloud.

   Your letter is an excellent example of how women spend **WAY** too much time thinking about stuff. A guy loses 60pds and women start finding him attractive, he says to himself “Great. I’m thin. I look great, I’m getting more women. Thin is good, fat is not.” –end of analysis.

   I’l tell you something really important to men. Fat or thin–Women who think like this, namely finding the down side of a really good thing, are a turn off.

6. Lance 6

   Wow, is this is a real letter?? She’s now hot and doesn’t want to date? I’m just going to throw this out there, but if she has ZERO dating experience and never even talked to guys previously, she won’t be that great of a catch. She needs the experience, and the dating/relating skills that come with it. My suggestion would be to jump in feet first and date as much as possible.

   IMO, women should get over the fact that men are hardwired for looks. It’s not an intellectual choice. It’s a biological imperative. It happens, it’s instantaneous, it’s part of being a dude. There are pros and cons to that, but ultimately it’s part of being human and male.

   Lance´s last blog post…Interview with Dream, Founder of the 21 Convention

7. starthrower68 7

   Honey, I didn’t take away any sort of double standard from the OP; if we’re hiding behind our weight – and I know that I have done this – you are just hiding from men. You pretty much assume that none will give you the time of day anyway. She may not have been aware of the “niche” sites for BBW’s. But it’s a moot point. The weight is off and good for her! It’s a struggle.

8. Jennifer 8

   It’s likely that it’s not just the fact that you’ve lost weight that is making men respond to you now. Based on your letter it sounds like you are more open to dating and relationships than you were before and that you are interested in men now, so your attitude is playing a role in the increased interest you are receiving as well.

   Just as you may not be interested in pursuing a relationship with a guy who has some trait you find unattractive (bad teeth, short, no education, whatever) it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a lot to offer and it doesn’t make you a bad person. It just makes you a poor match.

   If you can think of things that way rather than making the guys who didn’t want you before ‘bad’, it may help.

9. starthrower68 9

   Yes yes yes Lance and Hadley, we’re all aware that women should get over this and get over that, but rejection, real or perceived never feels good and sometimes people just have to take time and work through it.

10. starthrower68 10

    You don’t have to be attracted to or even LIKE heavy people. But if you’ve never been heavy then you don’t know what it’s like from the perspective from someone who has. It’s just like when an African American person or a Hispanic person, or Asian person tell us that we don’t know what they go through with their issues. How about a little more compassion and a little less “get over it”.

11. Hadley Paige 11

    RE: starthrower68 post #9 “sometimes people just have to take time and work through it.”

    Sometimes?? How about seemingly all the time. And for hours and hours and hours– with all of your friends. And you discuss how you feel, and then you discuss how your friends feel, and then how you feel about how your friends feel, and then how your friends feel about how you feel about how your friends feel. Enough !! (OK, this was a little rant I had to get off my chest about talking sorry, I’m OK now)

    What’s to work through? This woman just did an extremely difficult thing which resulted in an excellent outcome. She deserves much credit. And she is being properly rewarded for her efforts by attention from men who now find her attractive.

    If she is spending this much time on a good thing, I dread to think how much time she is going to spend on a bad thing. For me>> RED FLAG.

12. Steve 12

    Sandra;

    I was a sensitive kid. Things that would roll off of other boys sank in, deep, with me. I also grew up as a fat kid and a kid who was mocked in all of the hurtful ways fat people are.

    I got athletic when I was 14 and stayed in good shape until my early 30s when old sports injuries caught up with me and made me unable to exercise for a number of years. My weight went up to 260 lbs ( I’m 5 11 ).

    I stayed that way for many years until new surgical ( for my injuries ) and lifestyle options came way. For the past two years my weight has been around 180 lbs. I lost about 48 lbs. I updated my haircut and my wardrobe.

    I know where you are coming from.

    I had ( still slightly have ) the same resentments you do. I also felt bad about myself because I began looking toward more attractive women for dates — because I could. I felt like a hypocrite in the worst way.

    I wish I had a fast answer for you. The long slow answer is to work on 3 things over the long term:

    1. Accepting yourself unconditionally. The fact that you resent men who never met you and who never rejected you is a flag that while you deservedly like yourself you still have some unfinished business about how you judged yourself in the past.

    2. Accepting ( not liking, not endorsing )other people unconditionally for the flawed and unfair human beings that they are.

    3. Accepting that looks count. They count for men, that is natural and that is fine. Looks also count for women and they count for you. It is a fact of life. People who tell you otherwise are trying to sell you something or sell themselves something. Decide to draw the line at who is “shallow” if looks count first, if looks count the most, if ONLY looks count or if they count more than other things.

    Evan brought up a good point. In the end you will be the only person being punished with your current attitude.

    Aside from improved health and self esteem I’m sure having a better dating life as a result of weight loss was something you looked forward to. Your current ( justified ) attitude is going to cheat you out of those hard won opportunities for good times.

    At the end of their lives few people wish they spent more time at the office. The memories that comfort them are the ones they made in relationships with other people.

    You are insanely young with many opportunities to build wonderful memories. Don’t piss it away being angry. If you have to, find a professional to talk to.

    Steve

13. Steve 13

    @starthrower68 post #1

    I’m in IT for a living, but I am a luddite outside of work, so carrying around a laptop still impresses me. However, it is my understanding that all of the “cool kids” post to the internet now from hand held phones.

14. Barrett 14

    I think she should forget she ever was fat because it’s either holding her back or she lost weight for the wrong reasons. All the new men giving her attention just make her selection wider there is no reason to think any of them are more right than the men that would talk to her before she lost the weight. Move on and enjoy the new attention, don’t let the past you hold the present you back!

15. Jennifer 15

    @Steve #12- wonderful advice.

16. starthrower68 16

    Hadley, here’s a bit of enlightenment for you: there is NOTHING negative, mean-spirited, unkind, etc. that you could say to a heavy person that would make them feel any worse about themselves than the negative chatter going on in their heads. As far as women talking talking and talking, maybe it’s a “biological imperative” for women since we are relationship builders. I truly hope for your sake that you never need anybody’s compassion or mercy.

17. starthrower68 17

    Steve, I commend you for the kind encouragement that you have expressed toward Sandra. Just because some think what she feels is wrong or inappropriate, it doesn’t make her experience any less valid TO HER.

18. Steve (a different one) 18

    You can’t negotiate with attraction: it’s there or it’s not.

19. texasdarlin 19

    @ Steve post # 12- Great post-nailed it.

    @ Hadley post # 11 -”What’s to work through? This woman just did an extremely difficult thing which resulted in an excellent outcome. She deserves much credit. And she is being properly rewarded for her efforts by attention from men who now find her attractive.”

    It really isn’t all that easy. One of the reasons most of don’t make any sort of changes, whether it’s losing weight or anything else is that true change is hard. Not only that, it’s damn uncomfortable. I admire Sandra for making a commitment to herself, it must have been difficult, but there are still underlying issues that need to be dealt with. Sandra obviously has enough self worth to commit to being healthier, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that she is or will be comfortable with her new self image. She mentions a lot of positives about herself as a person, but again, it does not mean she real believes in herself, especially in this new social arena.
    I can use myself as an example. I am very confident and sure of myself in my professional life and in my relationships with family and friends. I’m not as sure of myself when it comes to dating. For various reasons I did not really date until I was several years ago after suffering some serious health issues. Sure, I had relationships, two of them serious, but for lack of a better term, I fell into those. As Lance (post # 6) advised I jumped into it feet first. I’ve learned a lot along the way and have survived various dents to the ego, some of which were self inflicted, if I’m honest about it. One thing that continues to come up (in my mind at least) is that thought what happens when I tell him? It’s something that I have to work on and get past. I know it & I’m doing it

20. delicia 20

    Sandra, congratulations and good for you! I mean this in the most sensitive and encouraging way possible, but get over it! The quicker you can let go of the “baggage”/issues you have around your weight and why guys are attracted to you, the better! Like someone else said, this may be a classic example of how a woman would tend to over-analyze the situation whereas a guy (in general, I know not EVER woman or guy would think this way) would just be like, sweet! I wish you all the best!

21. starthrower68 21

    Steve, I don’t think anyone is denying that. Yes, attraction is there or it isn’t. But I’d like you to engage in a little exercise and try to see this from Sandra’s side. You see in her letter how she basically rejected herself by avoiding men BEFORE she lost the weight. In a sense, she may still be doing that because she has and still does have some fear of male attention. To take it a step further, who wants to admit, “I’m not datable because I’m fat and ugly”? No, that hurts to admit. So instead we say, “well it shouldn’t be that way or this way”.

    Yes, that’s the way it is. What I’m trying to point out to the Hadleys on here is yes, looks count, but let’s have compassion for the deeper issue that still brings some pain to the person asking Evan for help. She’s only 22; she is still learning about herself and who she is and it’s not suprising that she is struggling with this.

22. starthrower68 22

    Delicia, you are thin, hot, and never without dates, right?

23. delicia 23

    Starthrower! What I meant by my post is that the more quickly she can accept the imperfections in the world (as laid out by Steve, for example) and get herself out there, have fun, and not over-think, over-analyze, and second-guess every guy’s motives/intentions and how they reconcile with her past life as a heavier person, the more positive a vibe she will send out there and let go of what may have been a painful past and accept it for what it is/was.

24. delicia 24

    ^^^ Life is short!

25. JuJu 25

    Please, if I hear yet one more time that it’s only MEN (bad, bad human beings!) who have the distinct need to be attracted, I think I’ll scream.

    I wouldn’t even consider a guy who is that much overweight! I dunno, 10-15, maybe 20 extra pounds at the most I could deal with, but no more than that.

    That is how I know all these male superficiality arguments aren’t worth the air they consume.

26. Mikko Kemppe 26

    Hi Sandra,

    It is normal to have unresolved feelings about dating to come up after you have gone through a major change in your life. I want to congratulate you for taking the steps to become more healthier. I am sure it was not easy.

    All of us deserve to be loved no matter how we look. But the truth is as Evan stated that now that you are more healthier and taken responsibility about your weight you have become more attractive to more people.

    Just apply the same determination to resolving your conflicting emotions that you applied to losing your weight. You deserve to be loved for just the way you are.

    -Mikko Kemppe

    Mikko Kemppe´s last blog post…Interracial and Intercultural Relationships: Can Love Overcome All Differences?

27. Steve 27

    @ starthrower68 , post # 21

    I’ve not only seen it from Sandra’s side, I’ve spent a fair portion of my life living there.

    Some of the cavalier responses have been just that.

    Regardless, the comments section of a blog is not the best place to go into things deeply. Given that limitation, as someone who has been down the road Sandra is on, my intent was to point out, in this limited media, the direction she should go in to get to the destination she wants so she doesn’t have to waste time with taking wrong turns.

28. starthrower68 28

    Ok stupid question delicia and I do apologize. But what I’m trying to point out is, when someone has a deeper issue they are struggling with, they don’t just “get over it” unless they are one of those rare exceptions. I don’t get the sense that she’s trying to over anlyze every guy’s motives. What I see going on here is she is still somewhat rooted in rejection whether other kids or family constantly criticized her weight, or someone else rejected her, or whatever. What I’m getting at is this is a process and may take some counseling. The reason I can speak to this confidently is because this is something I have been working on for 6 years, since my divorce. I have been rejected for my weight. I was criticized all through my childhood and adult years by my family for it. I have gotten to the point where I love and accept myself so that I can do something to change it, and yes I will enjoy some male attention when it’s gone. But I didn’t get there overnight. It’s been a process.

    Another thing that I’d like to point out is that again, nobody’s denying that looks count; we all know that. If Sandra didn’t know that she wouldn’t have taken herself out of the equation for so long. As I said, you don’t have to be attracted to or even LIKE fat people. But be aware of how you’re treating them. Be careful not to contribute to the poor image they already have of themselves. If you’re looking upon them with contempt and misguided notions, just remember that somebody may someday look at you that way too.

29. delicia 29

    Juju, HOLLA! In fact, that is my primary dating “issue”. I meet plenty of nice guys who would probably be great boyfriends/companions/husbands, but I feel NO attraction. Zero. You just can’t force it. I’ve heard of people where it “grew over time” but I’m guessing there was SOMETHING there initially and then became stronger but didn’t start at 0. Sigh.

30. starthrower68 30

    Ju Ju, I think Hadley did a fairly effective job of calling women out on the carpet so it doesn’t appear to be a male-bashing thread.

31. JuJu 31

    delicia,

    with it works in precisely the opposite fashion: I only find more things to not be attracted to over time.

32. delicia 32

    @ Starthrower post #27, I meant “get over it” about the guy thing. Obviously if there are more deeply-rooted self-esteem issues (which there may very well be and there’s nothing wrong with that) I think that goes beyond the scope of a dating blog comments section and she should definitely seek advice of a mental health professional.

33. starthrower68 33

    Delicia, I agree with you, she probably should seek out a professional counselor. I think given that she is so young, she sees this as a dating issue, and may not quite see there’s something deeper going on here. As we grow in self-awareness, we learn to face those unpleasant truths about ourselves.

34. Cilla 34

    Delicia, agree, there has to be *something* there from the start. When I go on the first date or two, I ask myself, “Could I kiss him?” If the answer is no by date two, at the latest, I don’t pursue the relationship. I just know the physical attraction isn’t there and it’s not going to be. If I could see myself kissing him (or better yet, want to), I know there is something to build on. Who knows where it may go from there, but there needs to be a kernel of something–call it a spark, chemistry, whatever. That being said, if I’m on the fence, and he is charming, witty, kind, etc., he has a better chance than if he’s just good looking. I guess I’m like everyone else: I want a good looking person to like me for me, but to also find me as attractive as I find him. Fortunately, I’ve got that going on right now.

    Give it time, Sandra. You’ll find someone who thinks you’re wonderful in all ways, and instead of resenting him for it, you’ll find it endearing.

35. Janet 35

    Thank you, JuJu (#25)! I don’t know where this b.s. about men being visual and needing physical attraction and women not got started, but I wish some big media outlet would take it on, esp. since there are so many studies showing that men and women are pretty much the same in this regard. I know that men have a lot of trouble understanding this given women’s behavior. But in recent times (because of social changes in the 20 c.) women have not had anything to “sell” in relationship except their attractiveness and fertility, so what do you expect except women obsessed with their attractiveness and men feeling entitled over that issue. It’s quite a fascinating shift historically (read “Marriage, A History” by historian Stephanie Coontz). But it has not always been thus. And neither have overweight people always been considered unattractive, and they aren’t in all parts of the world.

    As greater numbers of women gain their financial independence and come to rely on other skills besides housekeeping and manipulating their looks, relationships between men and women have changed–and that change has been rapid. The good news for Sandra is that a woman’s personality, intelligence, and career success are counting for a lot more than they used to, and a lot of men are into that. You’re young yet–hang in there and see if you don’t find that the qualities you have developed (and that others on here seem to be lacking) become more valuable as you age, while your looks become less of an issue. I am hoping that you find a guy who has also been through a painful time and has emerged stronger and more insightful because of it.

    And doesn’t everybody on here just want to marry Steve?

36. Cilla 36

    @ Janet

    I agree with you that men and women both need physical attraction to their mates. However I think women, in general, are a little more forgiving about what they find attractive or what they are willing to overlook in a man. I also contend that attractiveness can develop more over time with women, versus men who make up their minds within about 5 seconds of meeting someone whether or not she is attractive.

37. Honey 37

    Though I have always made decisions in the first minute or so of meeting someone as well (it was instantaneous with the BF) and sometimes I have changed my mind one way or the other by the end of a first date, I HAVE NEVER been in doubt by the end of the first date about whether I want to see someone again.

    There have been plenty of folks who got weeded out after that as their more unpleasant character qualities surfaced, but I have never regretted not going on a second date with someone because I wasn’t attracted to them. In fact, I declined so many second dates when I was “on the market” that my friends thought I was too picky and said that I should give the poor fellows a chance, so for awhile I had a minimum of 3 dates if the fellow seemed sane. However, I reverted back to my original method soon after because I just felt like I was stealing dinner – I was never wrong about a first impression (at least as far as whether someone was right for me).

    So I don’t buy this crap about guys are visual and women aren’t, either. Maybe it’s just part of being HUMAN – the world doesn’t revolve around you guys, sorry fellas.

38. Steve 38

    Janet Jun 4th 2009 at 12:42 pm 34

    Thank you, JuJu (#25)! I don’t know where this b.s. about men being visual and needing physical attraction and women not got started

    I don’t think that is what “they” are saying.

    Obviously both sexes are driven by looks.

    If that wasn’t the case, I could happily get away with wearing gym shorts on a date and the character of “Sawyer” on Lost wouldn’t be a heart throb.

    I think what “they” are saying ( and I agree ) is that men are significantly more driven ( that doesn’t mean 100% driven ) by looks than women.

    
    And doesn’t everybody on here just want to marry Steve?

    I enjoy Evan’s blog, please don’t scare me away

39. JuJu 39

    Cilla,

    I make up my mind about the kissability of any given man within my first glance at him.

40. Sandra 40

    Hey, I’m the OP, and I really want to say that everyone’s comments have also been helpful along with Evan’s answer.

    I’d let like to get a few things out in the open since I didn’t really think it was all too necessary to give my life story along with the question:

    1. the double standard issue: I’ve been attracted to heavier guys in my life…unfortunately, even they didn’t show interest in me. I definitely have certain physical traits i’m attracted to, but it really has nothing to do with weight. I’ve liked heavy and not-heavy men.

    2. I didn’t lose weight just so I would be more attractive to men. There are so many health issues that run rampant in my family and I made the life decision to take care of myself. It just happens to be that I feel I should start dating now that I literally started a “new life”.

    I have had a lot of rejection I suppose. I’ve asked out 3 guys in my life (because come on! I was tired of waiting) and got a no from all three. I reclused from the “dating scene” because I just got tired of it and had a lot more to worry about. I know i’m young…but i’m not getting any younger! So I decided to try again…better late then never!

    It makes sense that i have to just work through the thoughts and “get over it”. Hopefully things will work out!

    p.s. thanks to everyone for the congrats on the weight loss! It was a long process but amazingly rewarding at the end.

41. JuJu 41

    I think what they are saying ( and I agree ) is that men are significantly more driven ( that doesn’t mean 100% driven ) by looks than women.

    What makes you think so, Steve?

42. starthrower68 42

    Cilla, looks do count for us girls, too but I think we tend to be attracted to men on a mental or intellectual level first. I think Keanu Reeves is one of the loveliest creations God has put on the planet, but (and this is a nice little Christian girl saying this) I’d prefer he kept his mouth shut if I ever had the opportunity to bed him. Not that I would and he probably wouldn’t have sex with a plus-size girl but it’s an interesting thought, nonetheless.

43. Sandra 43

    oh yeah! and this:

    chubby chasers are just as bad as men who look for super skinny girls. They are still into just the looks!

44. delicia 44

    Juju, post 37, so do I. I’ve tried to change this but it is just the way I am I guess.

    Steve, I think that wipes out your “men are more driven by looks than women” theory.

45. starthrower68 45

    Sandra @43,

    Some of us are steaks and some of us are sides of beef…..ok, bad joke but since I’m a plus-size girl, I can make that kind of joke.

46. Honey 46

    @ starthrower68, #45 – I am a veggie burger, ha!

    Honey´s last blog post…What Flattery Will Get You

47. Cilla 47

    @ JuJu

    I have done that, too, if the review is egregiously positive or negative. But I still say *most* women take more time deciding on someone’s kissability (or attractiveness in general).

48. casualencounters.com/blog 48

    I agree with the conclusion, but only for a pretty narrow definition of “do best”.

    But yeah. The problem here is not what one thinks of societal standards of beauty and success, but the fact that this chick is missing out on some good life-stuff because of her bitterness.

    Not that she necessarily has to get over it. There’s always the option of finding an equally bitter man and building a love/hate castle of extreme facepunch together.

    casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…AmateurMatch review

49. starthrower68 49

    Honey, see? Female beauty takes on many shapes and forms….

50. Honey 50

    I think men don’t want to believe that women are just as oriented on the physical as they are, because a lot of them are in BIG TROUBLE if that is true!

    In fact, I have now decided to believe that any fellow who says that men are more oriented on attractiveness than women are is insecure about what he has to offer in that department.

    

    Honey´s last blog post…Interview with Dream, Founder of the 21 Convention

51. Kenley 51

    Sandra,

    Don’t you like the way you look now better than you did when you were 60 lbs heavier? Don’t you feel better about your self and don’t you feel more comfortable in your own skin now than you did when you were 60 lbs heavier? If you are like most people who have lost a substantial amount of weight (and I am one of them myself), then the answer to both questions is yes. So, why be angry at men for finding the thinner you more attractive when you find the thinner you more attractive too?

52. WithLove 52

    Sandra, you have done yourself, healthwise, a wonderful thing but also the benefit of opening up the dating world to you. As everyone above has mentioned looks really is the
    first thing that attracts people “usually”. I read somewhere that babies and young children are more open and friendly to nice looking people than the….not so nice looking. Interesting. I feel your pain and like Steve says…you should probably have some counseling sessions just to clear your head and see how wonderful you have always been. There are alot of mean, rude, inconsiderate, selfish, and arrogant people out there. Let’s just accept that and weed them out! Like looking for the perfect piece of fruit….you touch, squeeze, even smell or like the looks of the fruit……you SHOP. Not everyone will like you and YOU WILL NOT LIKE EVERYONE. I know the pain of trying to find the right person….trust me I have my own issues as well….I usually attract the players and well the less than desirable for anyone people. Nothing in between and it’s been this way since I can remember in my 46 years. My best friend who I have known and been friends with since we were 11…always got the guys. They would ask her to dance and talk to her…..not me. Then we got older she got married and we would go out somewhere same thing…..we just went to a movie recently and these 4 guys saw us both walk in, let me give ya a visual…I am shorter gal, weigh about 115, nice long hair, healthy and am told very attractive. My girlfriend 5′ 7″, weighs around 200 lbs, and still nice face, very bleached out blonde hair….they couldn’t stop looking at her….it STILL HAPPENS TO ME!!!
    I just had to laugh….whatever…it’s ok, just gotta find the one when she isn’t around! h ahha h hahhahhaha just kidding. Anyway, it’s a new day, a new you, and new opportunities ahead of you. Don’t stay angry it isn’t productive. Smile alot and just embrace being healthy and alive! Wishing you the best!

53. Blue 53

    So … Sandra. Just how many men who are 60-100 pounds overweight (approximate equivalent to your previous weight) are YOU making eye contact with, smiling back at, flirting with or otherwise encouraging to approach you?

54. Janet 54

    Honey, that is the biggest LOL I’ve had all day! Ha!!! I will remember that one!!

55. Jennifer 55

    I’m a little uncomfortable saying most women aren’t as driven by looks. Reason being, I think women have some ‘nice girls don’t think/do x’ issues going on and it makes them feel better to think they are attracted to a man’s mind or character first, but i think physical appeal is pretty much instant (or not) for more people than not.

56. delicia 56

    Jennifer, I really enjoy reading your (always very intelligent and well-thought-out) responses.

    And EMK, this quote is AWESOME:

    The people who do best in the world we live in are not the ones who try to rewrite the rules of society, but rather, figure out how to navigate them successfully

    Thanks all!!!

57. JuJu 57

    Cilla (post 47),

    how do you know if it’s *most* women?

    I also tried to let some men grow on me, for various reasons, but like I said in post 30, it really doesn’t work. :-

58. Offwinger 58

    I’m going to take a slightly different approach to what others have written (including Evan). That doesn’t mean I disagree with the general advice, though.

    Here’s my suggestion:

    Don’t go out of your way to look or feel your “hottest” all the time in terms of hair, clothes, makeup. It’s fine to still carry yourself with confidence and know you look good. But if you tone it down just a smidge, you might “trick” yourself into realizing that the guys who are approaching you are doing so, even though you do not look your very best at that moment.

    Anyone who has followed the “what is a 7? What is a 10?” discussion from this blog and Lance’s is aware that we can make ourselves seem more or less attractive just by what we wear, do our hair, etc. We can also “feel” different based on those choices – even if other people will still notice our looks nonetheless.

    I know it’s sort of weird advice to give someone, but my personal experience is that when I was younger, I used to think that guys were into me because of my personality & then I would be confused (or even a little suspicious) if someone expressed interest without really “knowing” me. Now, I can appreciate that looks were always a factor, especially at the onset, but only one among many factors once you got to talk to someone more/date.

    Still, there is a part of this that I probably will never “get.” I am a hardcore jock. I know that when I’m playing ice hockey, punching stuff at the MMA gym, or lifting weights, I look like “crap.” You know the people who dress for the gym as though they are going on a date? That ain’t me. I sweat. I focus on getting it done. I’m training. The end.

    It took me a while to figure out that I can be wearing what I consider to be “not remotely sexy” work out clothes to-from-after, and my hair will be a mess, and I need to shower, and I will still get hit on. And this is not because of my awesome (snerk) personality. It is because of looks, plain & simple. Nonetheless, there is a part of me deep down that thinks “but why? I’m gross” – because I’m feeling “I need a shower,” not “I’m hot & my body is lean & athletic.”

    I think you can duplicate something similar to this – though not at the same extreme – just to get you past the hurdle of giving the first bunch of guys the time of day without being too dismissive of them for being superficial. Wear a decent pair of jeans, not your “hottest” pair. Or wear a less revealing dress. Or whatever it is you think makes you look the best – don’t do it. Go to a place where you’ll still garner attention. The fact that you feel inside that this isn’t you at your most physically attractive may give you the confidence to relax long enough to get past the ‘look’s aspect that fuels the initial meet-up & just focus on enjoying the experience of dating different people, getting to know their personalities, and sharing yours.

59. Jennifer 59

    @Delicia #56- what a wonderful compliment thank you so much! I greatly enjoy reading your posts as well

60. starthrower68 60

    Sandra, something else occured to me that might give you some insight. Just because people have certain preferences in what attracts them to someone doesn’t mean there was anything inherently wrong with you when you were heavy. This is something that I’ve had to learn because I had a lot of negative chatter drummed into me as a kid due to my weight. I have two single guy friends that I think the world of, but I don’t have an attraction to them. They are great guys who any girl would be lucky to have. There just isn’t a romantic chemistry between me or them. Do I think they’d prefer a thinner woman over me? Sure. But I’m not bothered by it because their friendship is unconditional. They accept me as I am and I accept them as they are.

61. Cilla 61

    @ JuJu

    Completely anecdotal, based on my own experience with sisters, friends, co-workers, blog readers, etc. Just my opinion–entirely unscientific.

62. Kenley 62

    In terms of the importance of appearance for men vs women, in the book Evan recommended — Why He Didn’t Call You Back — that author indicated that women are more likely to give men they don’t find especially attractive a chance to grow on them. As a result, women are actually more likely not to go on a second date with a man because of his appearance — his personality didn’t make up for his physical shortcoming. By contrast, men aren’t as willing to give women they don’t find especially attractive a chance to win them over, so for men, physical appearance (as long as she didn’t misrepresent herself online), is less likely to be the reason they won’t go on a second date with women. So, the bottom line is both men and women rule out dates based on appearance. Men as a group just do it earlier in the dating process than women do.

63. Janet 63

    I think most people decide within mere minutes of meeting whether or not they are attracted to someone and will pursue a relationship. This goes for both men and women and has been borne out by studies on speed daters. There are also studies on sexual arousal that show that women are just as turned on by porn (visual stimulation) as are men–but are less willing to admit it.

    But initial attraction is not the whole story in building relationships, and, as has been pointed out on other threads, is not an indication of the success/failure of anything long-term (since this is a blog about getting to the long-term). You see lots of people of all shapes and sizes, income levels, etc. in happy relationships of all sorts.

64. bdsista 64

    I really empathise with the writer. I myself have lost weight, gained it and lost it again. But there is a lot of baggage that comes with weight loss (and gain) as others have attested to in their postings. But no one has suggested what I think is essential: she needs to get some professional help and some counseling to deal with her change in body image and what all those things mean. 60 pounds is a signficant life change and what is going on in her head is still indicative of her holding on to fat mental patterns. Her feelings have everything to do with how your image affects your self esteem, IN SPITE of your intellectual and professional accomplishments. I think a good therapist can help her reshape her ideas and attitudes that hold her back and help her to be more accepting of herself and of others. I also recommend she get involved in something that is affirming to women like bellydance. As a bellydancer, I have women who dance and perform with me who are all shapes, sizes, ages and are fabulous! We celebrate our curves and stay in shape and help each other reach our fitness goals whether we are thin or voluptuous! I think being around supportive, affirming women who celebrate their shapes through dance might really be good for her and anyone else!

65. Joe 65

    WithLove, you just need to go blonde.

66. Michael 66

    It is great that Sandra lost weight.

    Women who complain that men do not want to go out with them because they are overweight, who lie about their body type in their online profiles, ought to just lose the weight .

67. starthrower68 67

    Michael, Michael, Michael…..I will pray that you receive wisdom, compassion, and understanding…..

68. Jonsi 68

    Sandra,

    Whether chubby-chasers or hot-babe-seekers initially indicate interest primarily based on looks is not the point. The point is that they will only continue to date you and get serious with you if they are MOSTLY interested in your personality. The notion that most guys just want sex simply is not true, and experienced female daters who know what they want are able to weed those men out in the initial stages of dating.

    Like others have alluded, if you never dated before, hot or heavy, there was also probably some other vibe or attitude that prevented men from showing interest in you. Losing weight is not the only reason men are now showing an interest. You likely exhibit increased confidence and a more positive attitude in all your social interactions, and that ultimately is why guys are showing you attention. They can sense the other changes in you as well. They are now approaching you partly out of looks, but also because they can sense those other changes in you that allow for your personality to shine more bright and more often.

    So give some of these men a chance. You don’t have to get serious with them. You don’t have to have sex with them. Enjoy the attention, and let them get to know you. After all, when you buy a book it is because of the cover and synopsis on the jacket — LOOKS; you don’t know if it’s really something you will enjoy until you are 1/3 of the way in.

69. girl-with-glasses 69

    Well, to frame the issue another way, maybe it’s human nature to find attractive people attractive, and to like another person because of it, but is it love? By losing weight, the OP will get greater social currency, and have an opportunity to get out more, to possibly have a more ‘enjoyable’ time in life, but if she goes in with a naive attitude that just being social or having fun will provide more emotional sustenance than it is inherently capable of providing, then she’ll be disappointment and conflicted. Alot of men are good people to know, and they can be good company, but that doesn’t mean they are willing to ‘love’ you, love I mean in the effect of an healing of soul or acceptance condition. The OP is at a wonderful point in her life. 22! my goodness, she should take the opportunity to socialize and date. Looking for a more genuine and mature connection can wait after she experiences what the opposite sex really has to offer first.

70. WithLove 70

    Thanks Joe! But already been there and done that! Thanks for tryin’!

71. hunter 71

    It’s all about looks, and looks. I remember, making note of how many good looking women were boarding a cruise boat I went on. Very few. Then came formal night, the transformation is unbelievable, I have to say, almost every woman looked like a goddess.

72. Ann 72

    I wonder what people would say if a guy writes in with the problem “I just made a lot of money and now all kinds of girls want to go out with me, but no one would when I didn’t have money. I’m afraid that these women are all gold-diggers and only want me because I’m rich.” That would be considered a normal response to his situation, right, and not one that needs “counseling.” And the advice wouldn’t be just to get over it, that of course women are only attracted to guys with money. The advice would be to go find someone who loves him for himself, right?

    I wonder why the difference?

73. zann 73

    Sandra! Way to go & congratulations on your hard work AND your insight. (Everyone else: Give this girl a break — she’s young! I wish I’d been half as reflective at her age.) There’s no single answer for why we react to other people the way we do, because everyone draws on a different history of experience. I especially liked the responses from bdsista and girl-with-glasses, as I think they offer wise counsel to someone in your situation. But definitely don’t let your bitterness — justified or not — rob you of the rewards you deserve. Body size is only a part of your identity in the world & it will keep evolving.

    Regarding women overanalyzing — I agree that women tend to analyze & investigate — usually with other women — our reactions to how men treat us. But so what? Why is that a bad thing? It just means we’re complex and discerning. If men make Pavlovian, knee-jerk decisions and follow their noses (or genitals) every time eye candy walks by, that doesn’t mean women are “overthinking” things because we don’t do the same. It doesn’t mean we’re kill-joys. Personally, although it’s tempting at times, I prefer not to think like a guy. There’s enough trouble in the world with just GUYS thinking like guys. Har!

    Last & for what it’s worth, (surprise!) I want to make a comment on one part of Evan’s response. Maybe it’s me, but I don’t think being an overweight woman is really comparable to being a homeless male (even if it was George Clooney) trying to attract a partner in the dating world. That analogy seems a little skewed to me. A woman can be overweight and still be able to move about freely in almost any social setting, and her career and financial status may make it unnecessary for her to be concerned about the more basic stressers, like shelter, food, health care. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure most homeless people I encounter aren’t all that worried about their dating life OR their weight. One is a partly-genetic, partly-lifestyle issue; the other is a socio-eocnomic issue. Just sayin.

74. Michael 74

    I wonder what people would say if a guy writes in with the problem I just made a lot of money and now all kinds of girls want to go out with me, but no one would when I didn’t have money. I’m afraid that these women are all gold-diggers and only want me because I’m rich. That would be considered a normal response to his situation, right, and not one that needs counseling. And the advice wouldn’t be just to get over it, that of course women are only attracted to guys with money. The advice would be to go find someone who loves him for himself, right?
    A guy or girl could hide the fact that he/she makes a lot of money (unless he/she hangs out in extremely expensive nightclubs regularly).

    Could men and women hide being overweight whenever they go out?

75. Steve 75

    
    Ann Jun 5th 2009 at 07:57 pm 72

    I wonder what people would say if a guy writes in with the problem I just made a lot of money and now all kinds of girls want to go out with me, but no one would when I didn’t have money. I’m afraid that these women are all gold-diggers and only want me because I’m rich. That would be considered a normal response to his situation, right, and not one that needs counseling. And the advice wouldn’t be just to get over it, that of course women are only attracted to guys with money. The advice would be to go find someone who loves him for himself, right?

    I wonder why the difference?
    

    1. A response can be perfectly normal and still require counseling if it interferes with a person’s happiness and they do not want it to.

    2. Some people would advise the man to “get over it” – do something to solve his issue instead of just agonizing over it.

    3. Yes the advice would be to find someone who would love him just for himself.

76. Ann 76

    To Michael:
    Don’t get your point at all.

    To Steve:
    Sandra does not seem to “require” counseling to me. She sounds like she’s got her head on pretty straight. I would tell her not to get over it. I would tell her what we tell rich guys who want to avoid gold-diggers: Use that feeling you have–the one that is telling you to watch out, because you have a lot to offer in a relationship, maybe more than most, and yes, there are shallow people out there, people who want to take advantage of you, people who will use you. Next step after getting your health issues sorted out is to develop the skills of discernment that allow you to weed out those who would be with you only to take advantage and those who would love you just for yourself. Maybe Sandra has not had the opportunity to develop her street smarts re: dating. You develop street smarts by being out there–not by sitting in a therapists chair. There are plenty of guys out there who would love her big or small. She needs to find those guys, and that requires discernment.

    Agree with the comment that homelessness is not the male equivalent of a woman being overweight. Just as on the millionaire thread, a gambling problem is not the same as being in a lower income bracket. Homelessness and gambling addictions make a person non-functional and are very often related to a mental illness; being overweight may mean a person is non-functional and may be related to a mental illness, but not usually. Most people in the U.S. are overweight incl overweight guys who supposedly arent attracted to overweight women. Maybe guys need to get over it.

77. hunter 77

    During an interview, actor, Tom Selleck, said, “Where were all these women before, I became rich and famous”?

78. Ann 78

    “Oh, Tom. Just get over it. Women are hard-wired to be attracted to guys with money. They decide right away whether or not they want to have sex with you based on how much money you have. Call it whatever you want, but that’s the way women are, and there’s nothing wrong with it. There’s something wrong with you for questioning it. Maybe you should go talk to a therapist about it–because after all, you were poor and unknown for all those years, so something must be wrong with you. I’m just telling you the way it is, not the way it should be. So now go out and enjoy yourself with all these women!”

    See how ridiculous that sounds? But that’s what people here have been telling Sandra.

79. girl-with-glasses 79

    @Ann, I’m new to this board, I don’t know your background / situation, and I’m not trying to pick a fight. But I find some aspects of your attitude bewildering.

    ” There are plenty of guys out there who would love her big or small. She needs to find those guys, and that requires discernment.”

    To me dating is a social exchange. People have a lot to offer, fun, support, experience, and yes, even status. What’s wrong with looking for the bright shiny stuff at this stage in the OP’s life. If she has her head on straight, why are supposedly self-possessed women looking for complete acceptance from the opposite sex, most of whom are strangers at this stage? I don’t believe judging men on those criteria really frees a young woman to value them or get the best dating experience she can get. Like you said, finding the right guy will require discernment, but I don’t believe you get there by categorizing men who value appearance, or so-called ‘superficial’ aspects, as less worthy potential mates right-off-the-bat. I’m saying that I believe most men are way more committed, deep, loyal, and hardworking than they let on or women give them credit for AND those same men are visually driven and appreciate pretty women. To me, that’s more of a fact and not a value/moral issue. Younger women going into the dating scene should get their own self-esteem issues in check so they can look at men accurately. After all, dating isn’t about me-me-me, at best both parties should be enriched.

80. Evan Marc Katz 80

    I’m about to go to a wine tasting, but I had to respond to Ann:

    Women ARE hardwired to want men with money. It wasn’t always about money – not in pre-money societies – but women have always desired men who can provide and protect. We, as men, may lament the existence of golddiggers, but we’d be pretty foolish to pretend we’re just as desirable as office temps as we are as CEOs. It’s easy to say that you’d love someone regardless of looks or money – it’s a lot harder to DO.

    Men who ignore women’s desire for stability, money, and protection are no different than women who think that it’s “wrong” for men to desire youth, beauty, fertility and nurturing.

81. Steve 81

    @Ann, post #78

    I have no intention of offending you, but your writing is coming off as if you have an axe to grind.

82. Janet 82

    Ha! A woman with an axe to grind–what a horrible thing!! Seriously, Evan, if you’re going to be making these claims about what women and men have always wanted in relationship, you really should read the book I mentioned earlier, “Marriage, A History,” by Stephanie Koontz. What you are claiming is not accurate historically. And lest you think the book is some feminist rant about the subjugation of women (you know–by a woman with an axe to grind )–not. The author is married herself and highly credentialed in the field of family research, and the work is informative and easy to read. But I can see Ann’s point. A lot of the stuff you read on dating websites about what men and women “are” and “want” and “do” is just nonsense.

    Yeah, I know. I’ve no idea why I am even writing here, seeing as it isn’t my issue.

83. Tammy 83

    Evan
    That hard wiring changes when the woman has the money!!! LoL As a self proclaim cougar with funds I find myself looking for sweet young meat!!!

84. JimmyE 84

    Here’s an alternative solution:

    Sign up to an online dating site and write a brilliant profile that advertises your wonderful personality to the full. Then, either leave it photoless, or better yet, submit a picture of yourself from your pre-weight loss days.

    This way you can guarantee that any guys who agree to meet you are not just attracted to your new svelte figure

85. Ann 85

    Agreed, Tammy. I just don’t see all of these rich old man-pretty young thing couples, and I don’t see many couples where the guy is the only one with a career while the woman sits home making babies and dinner. And I don’t see people who have been together for years and years. I see people paired up who are about the same level of attractiveness, about the same age, both people work. And I see a lot of overweight married people everywhere. So not sure what’s going on in the dating world, but it doesn’t seem to have a lot of connection to what’s going on in the relationship world.

    But I should go–I have an axe to grind, because I’m so unloved and unhappy and nobody finds me attractive. You know how it is, I speak my mind and a man once called me fat, so, well, guess my fate is sealed. Off to castrate men and eat young children for dinner!

86. hunter 86

    Sandra, you keep that small waist,,,,,,,, a man will ask you out on a date,,,,you don’t have to go very far out of your way….

87. texasdarlin 87

    Several thoughts here-

    1. I think it takes a fair amount of courage to write in and then read not only Evan’s but everybody else’s responses. I’ve noticed that like several other threads this has generated a lot of commentary.

    2. A lot of us, myself include, have made comments and suggestions based upon a) What Sandra wrote and b) personal experience. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

    3. Only Sandra really knows what’s going on, whether any of our assumtions were on target or totally off base. It’s up to her to choose what do.

    4. I don’t see Ann as having an axe to grind, but as expressing her opinion. I don’t agree with it (#’s 72 & 78).

    5. I do see where both Micheal (#74) and Steve (#75) are comming from. Steve-you have a lot of valuable input, but that’s just my opinion.

    6. It’s been my personal experience in online dating that many men leave their income blank and many men state in their profiles the explicit desire to have a very attractive woman. This is by no means all, but I do see it and I’ve been doing the online dating thing off and on for a while now.

88. Ann 88

    just a shout-out to Sandra. I’m a dancer, and I know about women and body issues and how men try to neg on women about this. This is what I am talking about: you meet a guy who talks a certain way about women and the way women look, and you run in the other direction, even if he isn’t directing his comments at you. And that includes people on this board.

    My most recent story: Last year I had an injury, took a day gig where I sat at a desk all day. I put on about 15-20 pounds practically overnight, still in the normal BMI range, but not feeling good for me. I also tried internet dating at that time and went out with a lot of guys. I have very nice professional shots — because of my performing I know the “how to sell yourself” routine, even though that isn’t me, either. Three who kept pursuing me were all financial guys–a trader, an invesment banker, and a hedge fund guy — supposedly what I am “looking for” because he’s so rich and I’m so nice-looking, yes? All three were very overweight, two of them drank to an extreme degree. The trader was actually really sweet, just not for me because of the drinking. The other two were super critical of the way women look–I am talking about Serena Williams, Maggie Gyllenhall, Renee Zellwigger, personal trainers–any woman who crossed their field of vision, practically. And these guys had big ole guts hanging out!!! But because of their money and Ivy League MBAs I guess they thought they had something going on. Also, even though they made tons more than I (presumably) I paid my share–and they made sure that I did, thinking, I suppose, that this is some female equality thing. If they were into fitness and health and being sexy for me the way I am for my guys it would have been equal and it wouldn’t have been a problem. But dude–if you’re going out with someone because she’s hot, and you’re not, you better pony up. That’s your game, so play it right.

    If you aren’t into that game, give it up and find a new way. I did. I’m not into that game. I’m now seeing a school teacher who is really nice looking and fit, takes me to the ballet (not the motorcycle show), which he loves as much as I do, and he pays. I have a problem with him paying all the time, and so I’m trying to finesse this situation and talk to him about it in a sensitive way, because I’m not sure where his paying is coming from. Doesn’t seem to be about control, more about generosity. Whatever. It’s a confusing time in gender relations so I have to work this out with him.

    The reason I am so passionate about this: I have known so many dancers who were young, like Sandra, and abosulutely gorgeous, going around thinking they were fat and starving themselves and getting involved with awful guys who played on their insecurities. It seems almost built into the so-called “traditional” dating system. But it won’t affect you if you refuse to play that game. And how can a good relationship come out of that game, anyway?

    Listen to yourself, Sandra. You will find a good guy if you want one, in your own time and your own way. I think you have your head on straight and that there is nothing wrong with you for being tentative about the male population.

89. Cilla 89

    @ Ann (and Sandra)

    Funny, as a former professional dancer myself, I spent my teens and twenties thinking I was fat (I was about 100 pounds soaking wet at 5’3″).

    Then I had a baby at 30 and gained 53 pounds (lost about 25 pounds of that before I left the hospital). I quickly lost the rest of the baby weight (scared sh**less to weigh that much).

    A bad marriage where I ate for comfort, leaving the dance world, going back to school–I gained 20 pounds.

    Took up long distance running and martial arts, got a divorce–lost 20 pounds.

    Knee surgery and ten years of dating, some of it good, some of it really, really bad–weight has yo-yo’d up and down. I’ve finally settled somewhere in between my thin weight and my heavy weight (with a wardrobe that spans the entire spectrum LOL).

    And you know what? I finally feel sexy. I may have been thin when I danced, but I never felt like a woman. Now I look at 40- and 50-year-old women who are that thin, and so many look ropey, sinewy, and masculine to me (Madonna is good example, in my opinion, and apparently, Guy Ritchie’s). I’m in relatively good shape but refer to myself as “curvy” not “athletic and toned,” as I would have in my dancing days. I feel like a juicy mango, not a piece of beef jerky.

    You know what else? I have so much more interest from men than I ever did when I was younger AND thinner. I’m sure it’s a combination of dating experience and body confidence (and actually having some attention to give to the opposite sex vs. focusing all my energy on a compulsive workout schedule and what I’m not going to eat on any given day).

    All the commentary on this thread and others that tells us we need to love ourselves first before we can love someone else is absolutely right. Being comfortable in your own skin is, in my experience, the most attractive quality of all to potential mates, and seems to overcome a vast number of so-called impediments to dating happiness.

90. starthrower68 90

    Ann, I didn’t think you came across as having an ax to grind, but thank you for sharing your story. I rather like how the guys who thought they had something going on didn’t end up with you, and the nice schoolteacher did. I think your story speaks volumes about how people in general can be.

91. Cilla 91

    Let me add that someone who is naturally willowy and slender, like Uma Thurman or Cate Blanchett, will look just fine on the thin side. Someone whose genetic weight set point is higher–Julia Roberts, Drew Barrymore, or Catherine Zeta Jones, for example–will get that ropey look if she loses too much weight. I’m not saying being thin is bad–just not natural for some people. Read an interview with Kate Winslet lately? All she seems to talk about is her struggle to lose weight to meet the pressure of Hollywood. Where is the lovely and engaging actress who used to have something more substantial to talk about when she was her natural weight?

92. girl-with-glasses 92

    Just to play devil’s advocate here. I find good looking, tall, attractive men with money very attractive. And why not? They have to date someone too.

    And just because a man has money, doesn’t automatically qualify him for knuckle-dragging neanderthal status, i.e. being a hedge-fund manager, investment banker etc doesn’t mean one is scum out to bring back patriarchy through the sexual subjugation of women via their bodies.

    to each their own I guess.

93. starthrower68 93

    Girl-with-glasses, we all filter our view of life from our experiences. I agree with you, a man with money doesn’t automatically make him a jerk, any more than a guy without makes him an angel. But I think most experts on people will agree that many men with power and money tend to put work ahead of all else do not have an easy time with relationship building. Nobody’s arguing that there are exceptions out there. It doesn’t seem to be the general rule, however.

94. hunter 94

    on post #88, I have dated elementary school teachers, they seem to be very nice people and in abundance. I have yet to date a high school teacher, I am told, their energy is completely different.

95. Ann 95

    Cilla–congrats!!! And thanks, StarThrower!!

    Girl-with-Glasses: These guys weren’t tall and attractive. And certainly not all financial guys are like this. But I know a ton of them and they are usually rather alpha male. And alpha male pretty much implies compliant female. If anyone goes for that, more power to ya. Everybody can have what they want, in my view. If you have weight that goes up and down, or if you have insecurities about how you look, you are not going to have a good time with one of these guys, in my POV. They are very into image and the woman is his appendage. It’s hard for me to imagine having a life with one of these guys that isn’t all about him and his career, but I guess some women just wanna go along for the ride.

    Of course, a lot of times you see the Wall St. power couple, where the woman needs to have the big degree or the big job. That’s kinda cool. She still has to look the alpha-male-wife part, though.

    But just in general I am warning Sandra about predatory male behavior, and when you’ve been a performer you meet a lot of guys like this. You develop a sixth sense about who is interested in you for some not-so-good reason and who is a genuine person. Sandra may not have had the opportunity to develop those skills–the weight loss may be like becoming a star overnight, where all of a sudden everyone who used to look right through you is inviting you to their parties. I don’t think a little caution and mistrust are out of place for her. She’s very young.

    I did wonder about the strong negative reaction from guys on this board when you talk about this stuff. I really puzzled over it. And then it occurred to me that EMK, Steve, other guys on this board –guys who probably aren’t predatory in their interests toward women– don’t get what it’s like. It was the mention of that book Self-Made Man that got me thinking about this. A lot of the usual dating advice for men seems to me predatory and usurious of women. Maybe most guys only take it to a certain point and don’t step across that line. But plenty of guys do step across the line, and call it fun, just being “a guy,” etc. And how do you know if a guy who is approaching that line is going to turn out to be a decent guy or a predator? You don’t. Until he steps over the line. The decent guys probably aren’t aware that in their dating bravado they are starting to sound kind of predatory.

    Like the aforementioned investment banker, who met some of my friends for the first time and was laughing casually about a drug they had in college that “guys” used to give to women when they wanted to have sex with them. “We call that rape,” I said. I ended it with him that night. No need to wait around to see whether he was decent or scum.

96. Steve 96

    @Sandra; I’m sorry that there are so many comments that have nothing to do with your original issues or that seem to not to have read what you wrote carefully. Welcome to the internet!

97. Steve 97

    I have to say that I am amazed how often women are myopic to their own sexism and misandry. That is just how the world is and part of me that has not grown up still throws the “shoulds” around. I have about 60 years left, maybe I will get over it. Some of the opinions I have read in this thread have been truly ignorant. I’m chalking it up to age. Some of the older women seem to have better heads on their shoulders.

98. Steve 98

    About “(just) getting over it”.

    Not everyone’s mind works just like yours. Some people are better with some issues than you are and some are worse with some issues than you are. If you remember that you will have a powerful insight to benefit from.

    About venting and talking it out.

    Those things are part of achieving and maintaining mental health, but like everything else these things can be overdone. It only makes you feel better. Taken too far it can make your problem worse by dwelling on it or simply dithering about your problem instead of fixing it. Getting over an emotional issue is about changing the way you think and changing the way you behave.

    I am not an expert of any kind.

99. Steve 99

    @ girl-with-glasses , post #92

    ROFL!!!

100. Ann 100

     Steve:

     I did have to laugh to myself about the “axe to grind” comment. I left a therapy group once because a guy told me that. I had a lot of trouble with this guy because in my first day in the group he did an “exercise” where he “vented” by calling his wife a c*nt and a b*tch and said that he wanted to twist her t*ts off as he simulated the same on a pillow. His misogyny was never addressed in the group; the only other women in the group were older and very compliant. As you can imagine, this was not a group for me!

     Call it man-hating, if you want. I was thrilled to be out of there. And my suspicians were confirmed that is was not a woman-friendly group: After I left I found out through the therapist’s social networking sites this therapist, who is elderly and recently married, had taken as his bride a decades-younger wife who was Chinese and did not speak English. He communicated with her through a sign language he made up himself, he wrote. And he, an amateur filmmaker, also had scripts and film clips on his site in which the protagonist killed his girlfriend because she was angry at him and wouldn’t stop challenging him, where he simulated masturbation, where an old guy is surrounded by a bunch of erotic young “Indian” women who want to pleasure him, and where a young male therapist has an affair with a patient.

     Now, if my having a problem with a therapist like this and an investment banker who laughs about rape are sexism and misandry in your view, so be it. I will wear that badge with honor.

101. Ann 101

     Here’s a thought-provoker: If men are hard-wired to “protect” women, as the claim has been made, what, in this world view, are the men protecting the women from?

102. Mary 102

     To #92, I guess it’s like my grandma used to quote, it’s as easy to love a rich man as a poor man.

103. Lance 103

     Totally agree with EMK in #80.

     Sandra’s letter reminds me of an litmus test I have that I think is interesting. Whenever I meet a new chick with good looks, I always ask myself at some point in the interaction, if this chick were fat, would I be hanging out with her? If the answer is yes, and she’s good looking, then she’s probably a winner. That happens fairly infrequently, to be honest. The cool thing is if she rejects me or flakes, it pretty easy to swallow.

     Lance´s last blog post…Now I’m Cookin

104. Lance 104

     @Ann #101: poverty, hardship, mediocrity, boredom, tediousness. A long time ago it used to health related, ie wealthier families can afford better healthcare, live in safer places, etc, and a very long time ago it used to be physical danger. Much of that is irrelevant now because women have careers and take care of themselves, which, IMO, makes gold digging pretty ridiculous, but no less true. Men are still basically cavemen and go for pretty faces and nice boobs; I don’t think that’s changing any time soon!

105. Ruby 105

     Ann:

     Personally, I’m really enjoying your posts! Sometimes we forget that the personal is still the political, and that we can be shaped by our cultural biases more than we’d like to admit. And lots of cultural “norms” are worth challenging!

     Obviously, those wealthy, status-seeking MBA’s weren’t intelligent or thoughtful enough for you, even with their Ivy League degrees. The generous-hearted school teacher probably gets you much better!

     Going all the way back to Cilla, #3, your comments to Sandra also frame her situation well.

106. Ruby 106

     Oh yes, Ann’s question in #101, and Lance #104, I think we can add to that answerr…patriarchy.

107. starthrower68 107

     @ Lance #104, as long as you’re ok with women’s preferences not changing anytime soon, then that’s fair. D

     I know for me, I am looking forward to getting the weight off and being found more attractive. I don’t believe I’m ugly or repulsive now but I’m certainly not going to complain about a full social calendar. I do think though, that having some experience behind me, it will be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff. A few years ago, I would have been too naieve. And it all boils down to this; if a guy treats a woman poorly, and she’s treated him kind, not hounded him, been a drama queen, etc., she can hold her head high whether he rejects her or not. She’s still a classy lady. I think there’s something comforting about that. Ann, I don’t know you but I think you are a classy lady who can hold your head high.

108. Lance 108

     @Ruby: Women need men to protect them from father-dominated families?

     Lance´s last blog post…Now I’m Cookin

109. Steve 109

     @Ruby, post #106

     No personal offense meant to you whatsoever ( or anyone else )

     If for some reason you decide that you want to repel single men and you don’t want to gain a lot of weight just drop the word “patriarchy” several times into the conversation.

     Honestly, there is sarcasm in this comment, but the comment still has truth value. The advice will work in either direction.

110. Steve 110

     @Ann, post #100

     I wasn’t in your group so I don’t have the right to make a judgment call. Based on your post I would say that the man with the pillow was venting about one woman, not all women ( so the label misogyny may not apply ) and it was done in the context of venting…..not in doing.

     My personal opinion is that kind of venting is not appropriate in a mixed group. If I was you I would have left that group too, both for that reason and the other things you found out about the group.

     I think you and women with similar attitudes are being hypocrites and are blind to it.

     If I am interpreting you correctly you wrote that you, as a woman, did not feel comfortable hearing a person express his rage against “women” ( in this case one woman ).

     Fair enough, but how is that any different than you, as well as other women, coming onto a mixed forum and expressing all sorts of negative sentiments about men?

     I wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of happiness.

111. Janet 111

     Actually, most children today are not raised in “father-dominated” households. Only 25% are, acc. to the U.S. Census. (Though who wants to live in a “dominated” household, anyway, is my view. I think the Census calls it a two-parent household and breaks it out according to head of household being the one who works outside the home–but not quite sure of the language used there. I’m close….)

     Anyway, there’s your theory about that out the window. And being protected from boredom, tediousness, etc? What?? This is what women turn to men to be “protected” from? Very strange idea, that one.

     And I think it’s quite curious that it’s men who keep asserting what women’s “hard-wiring” is, when, presumably, men do not occupy female bodies and cannot possibly know what we experience as our “hard-wiring.” And I will assert again: Female sexuality is not coin-operated. Read the literature on it, guys, before you go around asserting these crazy things. I do agree that this idea is very popular in the media and the dating press especially, but it is not grounded in fact. You would do the world a great service to stop perpetuating these outmoded ideas.

     Ann: The former therapist sounds very old school and not up to speed on what is going on in psychotherapy today. Glad you left. Sounds dreadful. And yes, I would say that the therapist has big issues with and rage toward women himself and so would not be a good steward of a mixed group. Not a “protector,” as it were, of the women in the group–especially a woman he perceives as stepping out of line (he draws the lines, of course). Though no doubt he saw himself as a great protector of women, esp. the down and out types, like his mail-order wife. That’s the thing about the “protectors”–it’s really only about protecting what is theirs and about destroying what is others’. But people who espouse this “protector” theory usually leave off the second half of the equation. Which is what I think you meant by your question, Ann.

     I know that some men react very strongly to this, and I’m sorry, Steve, if you feel attacked. If you read the book I recommended earlier it might clear some things up for you. I know very few women who are into bashing “patriarchy,” as such, but they are not going to accept men telling them what their experience of their environments, their bodies and sexuality, and their roles in the world are our should be, either.

112. starthrower68 112

     Steve! I don’t think Ann was raging against or hates all men; I think she’s had some experiences that can still make her angry when she thinks about them. But if she truly hated men, she wouldn’t be with her teacher BF whom she’s spoken about in very kind terms. I think Ann is just a no-nonsense, straight-shootin’ kinda gal. And be fair, now: you do try to understand the other side but we’ve all made comments like “men are this or women are that”.

113. Janet 113

     And yes, Steve, there are women you need to run from, just as there are men you need to run from (Ann gave some good examples).

     I would agree with you that if you hear the “p” word you need to run.

114. Ruby 114

     Women still make less money than men, after divorce, a woman’s financial position declines, single moms are struggling, there is still violence against women. Sorry to use the “P” word, but we still live in a patriarchal society, whether you want to admit it or not. Is it better for women than it used to be? Absolutely. Do we still have room for improvement? Yes.

     Steve, no offense taken. I’ve never had a problem talking about this with any men I’ve been involved with.

     Sorry, this is getting off topic, but the guys asked.

115. Honey 115

     I wrote my dissertation on how hysteria was used as a social construct in the late 1800s and early 1900s to provide a biological/physiological justification for denying women the right to vote and work outside the home…and I never had any problems dating (and have been in an LTR for over 3 years).

     But perhaps I just dated more enlightened men?

     Honey´s last blog post…Now I’m Cookin

116. Janet 116

     One other thing: the disturbing thing about the guy venting in group was the s*xualization of his rage. Only women are called c*nts and b*tches, only women have t*ts. I would feel very uncomfortable being around a guy with that kind of “wiring” myself. And we can’t know if he’s a misogynist, but it isn’t looking good, in my view.

     The “wiring” of human sexuality is in fact a very malleable thing, software, not hardware. What is considered stimulating changes from era to era, from person to person, and even within one person over time. The s*xual response is one of the most plastic neurological responses in us humans. (Read “The Brain That Changes Itself.” Utterly fascinating!)

     What people perceive as hardwiring is very easily explained by matters of social exigency, as Ruby points out.

     And I’m glad to hear that you’ve found guys who can handle the R word, Ruby! Good work!

117. Cilla 117

     @ Ann #95

     I agree with you on the alpha male type. I dated someone for a while last year who had a business pedigree most men would die for he. He was good looking and interesting, with fabulous taste. When we met, he told me he was looking for someone who could hold up a conversation with him, who had diverse interests, who was even a little unconventional or bohemian in her lifestyle. Of course, he also wanted someone who was attractive in his eyes, but he made a point of saying his taste wasn’t the beauty pageant type. As we continued to date, these were things he complimented me on, and told me he appreciated finding someone who had all those desirable characteristics. He frequently told me how attractive he found me.

     When we broke up, he told me he wanted someone more compliant, more demure. I also got the impression that he wanted someone who was more universally viewed as eye candy, a supermodel type he could parade around the nightclubs he frequented. Hmmmm… no contradictions there LOL.

     @ Steve

     Yeah, we do get a little off topic here, but sometimes it provides the most interesting discussion. It would probably be easier to follow these conversations if readers could reply to specific comments and create a sub-thread, rather than simply posting a reply that gets posted with all the others in chronological order. (Hint, hint, Evan’s blog administrator )

118. Steve 118

     @Honey, post #115

     or the BF got to know you before he could have gotten a mistaken impression from what usually serves as a good warning sign.

119. The Seductress Within 119

     “I know you say that physical attraction really does matter to men, but I have a pretty awesome personality and I want that to be, if not of most, of high importance. Please give me some insight! I’m pretty sure asking every guy that approaches me, would you talk to me if I were fat? is not the best way to go about things.”

     Although you have lost the weight, it’s apparent that you still maintain body issues. Perhaps you still see yourself inside as a heavy person, or ‘rejected’ person or maybe you fear that if you got into a relationship now with your current weight, you may loose your new man if you gain 10 pounds.

     If you don’t want to be judged by men, stop judging them! If a man sees a woman he finds attractive for any number of reasons (body, hair, smile, eyes, laugh) and wants to talk to her, he is not a bad guy for that!

     The problem is not how MEN view you– the problem is how you still view yourself-and are blaming men for it.

     If you want to get past this, my advice is to learn how to love yourself first (your body and not just your personality) and remove the chip from your shoulder before each date. Take your time with dating and remember to have fun.

     Seductress

120. Steve 120

     @Janet, post #16

     I read in the news that Thailand is one of the number one spots in the world where people go for sexual reassignment surgery. Thailand’s surgeons got their skills from the frequency in which enraged Thai wives take out their anger on cheating husbands by cutting their penises off.

     Closer to home, the schmuck in Ann’s group only twisted a pillow and I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard women express their rage about particular men by angrily joking about events happening to their genitals.

121. Jennifer 121

     I think we are reading a bit much into this guy’s venting in a therapy group. If you can’t vent there, where can you? I’m all for Ann leaving if it made her uncomfortable, and based on other things she found out it sounded like the right move for her, but the man was in a therapy group, not on a street corner.
     And, did the guy’s wife cheat on him? If so that may explain some of the ‘sexualization’ of his comments. If a woman found out her man was cheating and vented in a therapy group that she wanted to kick his bitch-ass in the balls, would we say there was something seriously wrong with her and that she hated all men, or that she was mad at one man for a good reason?

     Thinking, and analyzing and reading into things has its place, but sometimes we (as humans) can just take things too far.

122. Steve 122

     @Cilla, post #117

     It is my hope Evan does none of those things.

     It would make his blog more similar to a forum and the web boards I have seen if they don’t have more heat than light then they are short on the worth content Evan provides.

     My theory is that it is the difference in “architecture” between blogs and forums that keeps garbage content to a minimum on blogs.

123. Cilla 123

     Wait a minute, please tell me I’m interpreting this incorrectly. Single women are now no longer free to discuss the possibility that we still live in a patriarchal society, because it might put single men off? OK, agreed, it may not be the best topic for a first date, but to me that seems like not bringing up the topic of racism because some white people might get offended or eschewing a conversation about smoking because the smokers won’t like it.

     So lets say I’m on a date with a guy and I’ve just finished my dissertation on how the mainstream media fail to adequately cover race relations. I’m white and the guy is white, but I don’t know what is opinions about racism etc. are. Are you suggesting that I should tap dance around the last, oh, 5 years of my life, because he might not agree with me, and it would therefore make me less desirable?

     Honey, you’re right. Dating enlightened men is the key. If I can’t discuss these kinds of topics with him, I won’t care if he isn’t interested in me–I’ll give him the boot first.

     I know, it’s another tangential post, but I just had to ask.

124. Cilla 124

     @ Steve

     Well, the reality is that sometimes the blog commentary here IS like a forum: rambling, off topic, argumentative. The “architecture” I suggested for the blog commentary would just provide some organization for what is already in existence. I don’t think it would detract from Evan’s advice at all, which is always available at the top of the page in his original post.

125. Steve 125

     @Jennifer, post #20

     THANK YOU!

126. Ann 126

     No, the wife hadn’t done anything. They squabbled all the time, that was all. Very boring stuff. Nothing deserving of such a reaction. And yeah, better he act it out in there and not in the real world, but that doesn’t mean I have to sit there and listen to it. You can listen to it if you want to.

     And just for the record, when I told the therapist privately that I had a problem with the way this guy was “acting out” his hostility toward his wife he told me that I probably wanted to act that way toward men’s p*nises. Uh, no. I actually rather like them and have no desire hidden or explicit to behave in that way. Would not even occur to me.

     But what do you expect when you go to a not-too-bright pseudo-Freudians. Even good Freudians are old news; they seem a little crackpot in the modern age. Freud’s weird interpretations of women’s so-called “problems” are one of the big tragedies of science, I believe.

     I see a relational therapist now. Very intriguing. To get back to Sandra, in relational therapy her weight gain/loss would not be seen as indicative of anything (a personality disorder, say) in absolute terms; the therapist would have to hear from Sandra what it means to her. It is completely possible that Sandra’s weight gain was a very healthy response to something and she’s to be commended on a job well done. And then a second job well done when the weight no longer served a purpose and she lost it. Or whatever, that’s the thing. The answer lies within her, not in a checklist of her “symptoms.”

     And thanks, Cilla. Well put.

127. Karl R 127

     Cilla asked: (#122)
     “Single women are now no longer free to discuss the possibility that we still live in a patriarchal society, because it might put single men off?”

     Let me turn this around…

     If you were talking to a man and he suggested that any woman who would date a wealthy man is a golddigger … what would you think about him?

     You probably agree that there are some women in the world who deserve the label, but if a man assumes that every woman who dates a rich man deserves that label, then it’s quite likely that he’s damaged goods in one way or another. It’s bad enough that his perspective doesn’t match reality. But he adds to the problem by voicing it to potential dates.

     If you’re claiming this society is patriarchal, then you’re out of touch with it. I’m sure there are patriarchal families, but I don’t know any … and that includes my Mormon coworker. (He and his wife both believe that the man is the head of the household, but my coworker is wise enough to know that his life is happier when his wife is happier … and his wife is happier when she gets a say in the decision-making process.)

     There are some places that are male-dominated: the top levels of business, politics and religious hierarchies. But even there the glass ceiling keeps moving up.

     And if you’re describing the whole society as a patriarchal, it sounds like you’re painting the entire gender as your enemy. And since I’m part of that gender, I don’t feel like having to negotiate a cease-fire before I can get a second date.

128. Honey 128

     @Kark R, 127:

     All women are gold-diggers: NOT FACT

     Some women are gold-diggers: FACT

     All men are misogynist: NOT FACT

     Some men are misogynist: FACT

     Society is patriarchal (and also racist and homophobic): FACT

     The fact that everyone within the structure does not adhere/subscribe to the fundamental beliefs of the structure does not change the fact that the structure has not yet changed.

     Honey´s last blog post…New Car!

129. girl-with-glasses 129

     I notice that men tend to be competent, knowledgeable, fair, mathematically / logically inclined, and not inclined to whine about their own suffering or griefs, or the hardships they’ve endured. They also tend to understand social contracts involve individuals bringing in their best A game to the table, so that the group as a whole can cooperate and evolve.

     women…..let’s say their views speak for themselves.

     What mystifies me as a young woman is why people who aren’t as competent, who don’t even have a solid grasp of science, math, history, economics, never feel that their own lives are being lived by them, don’t have genuine goals and the resolve to accomplish them, but feel fully justified in their constant and loud nagging about how other people aren’t serving their non-ending, disillusional needs for self worth.

     I don’t make a habit of being such a drudge, but I have to say I’m female, and I do have a sense of fairness, which unfortunately seems all to rare. And that sense of fairness has been aggravated for a long time now, so I can understand the anger of men.

     Yes your dating experiences are your own, and valid as such. But no one here is really treating their experiences as individuals, are they? When a woman speaks, it’s implied that it’s suppose to represent the female view in the gender relationship for some reason.

     Well, I for one will state that I’ve never been treated badly by a man. My professors were male, people who gave me a chance in my career were male. Everyday in the city, I feel protected and happy because of the existence of men. My experience is valid as well, no?

     welcome to the internet, as they say.

130. Cilla 130

     @ Karl R

     The fact that you are insisting that if I think our society is patriarchal, I am out of touch (that because you say so, you are right and I am wrong) isn’t exactly disproving my point. LOL

     But I really wasn’t arguing about whether or not our society is patriarchal. I was saying that if we can’t have intellectual discussions about big topics without fear of offending somebody, the dating world is that much more pathetic.

131. Michael 131

     Women still make less money than men
     So who would hire men instead women, unless men have something to offer that women do not?

132. Ann 132

     girl-with-glasses: If you want to see how the other half livesd, have I got a therapist for you!! Be forewarned: He might call you by the wrong name for a few years. (Or maybe just “girl.”)(Yes, he did that, too. So crazy and funny!)

     But don’t assume that all or most women don’t have a solid grasp of econ, history, math, science, and the other “male” intellectual disciplines. When not doing my creative life I make six figures as a consultant in a male-dominated world. I can do this because I am well-educated and smart and can handle the alpha male environment when required. I just don’t want it in my personal life. Sounds like some other women on here are pretty accomplished as well. So not sure who the diatribe is directed at.

133. Cilla 133

     @ Michael 131

     Because the *perception* (held by other men) is that men have something more to offer–they’re smarter, better with numbers, less emotional, etc. It’s still a big boys club in many fields.

     The only reason I can see why women realistically come in second to men is when a job requires physical strength (firefighting, for example, which some women are still capable of doing) or a long-term commitment to a project that could be interrupted by pregnancy and maternity leave.

134. texasdarlin 134

     Totally off subject, but @ ANN #’s 100 & 126. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I’m glad one idiot did not sour you on therapists. I hope you reported the first to your state’s licensing board. I don’t know that he did anything unethical per say, but his response to you was totally uncalled for, I don’t care what he called himself. If he advertised his services on the social networking sites you mentioned that could be grounds for a more formal complaint depending on the rules of your state.

135. Karl R 135

     Honey said: (#128)
     “Society is patriarchal (and also racist and homophobic): FACT”
     Cilla said: (#130)
     “The fact that you are insisting that if I think our society is patriarchal, I am out of touch (that because you say so, you are right and I am wrong) isn’t exactly disproving my point.”

     I say I’m right, and both of you are wrong, because I’m using the term correctly, and you aren’t.

     patriarchy
     hypothetical social system in which the father or a male elder has absolute authority over the family group; by extension, one or more men (as in a council) exert absolute authority over the community as a whole.
     - from the Encyclopedia Britannica Online

     The only way this society is a patriarchy is if you start redefining the term. (Or if you’re living in another country, like Saudi Arabia.) There are a small percentage of families in the U.S. where men hold absolute authority. There are also some families where women hold absolute authority. The majority of families have shared authority. (My own family being the first example I think of, and my mother has slightly more authority than my father.)

     And since women make up roughly 50% of the electorate, I’m having a hard time seeing how men are allegedly achieving absolute authority over the community as a whole.

     I would say that this country has some lingering sexism and inequality. But when you choose to call it patriarchal, you’re claiming that society is at the extreme end of the scale when it comes to sexism and inequality.

     Maybe you just don’t understand the meaning of the word. Maybe you just have a tendency toward hyperbole. But if either of those are true, you’re going to find that a lot of men will misunderstand what you’re trying to say. And if that misunderstanding happens on the first date, you’re unlikely to get a second date.

     Based on my own experiences, I would say that you’re better off understating any controversial beliefs instead of overstating them on your first few dates. (And given this tangent, let me explicitly point out that this applies equally to men and women.)

136. Cilla 136

     @Karl R

     “The concept of patriarchy is often used by extension (in anthropology and feminism) to refer to the expectation that men take primary responsibility for the welfare of the community as a whole, acting as representatives via public office, with various forms of authority. Western civilization, like most societies in history, is patriarchal, but has recently attempted to legislate for egalitarianism due to sympathy for the Women’s rights’ movement.”

     “Patriarchy is best defined as control by men…Obviously, the culture of the United States and most other countries is patriarchal. Men have the power and control the women. If you don’t believe that consider the basics of how our society functions…Patriarchy is also found in family traditions like women taking the name of their husbands and children always carrying the father’s last name. More women are choosing to keep their maiden names or hyphenate with their married name so they can retain their own identity. With reference of Mr. and Mrs. so-and-so, the man assumes the dominant role again and women lose.”

     “…broadly : control by men of a disproportionately large share of power…”

     Just a few other definitions found from following the first few Google hits under “patriarchy.” The last one is from the Miriam-Webster dictionary.

     Saying patriarchy doesn’t exist here because men don’t have “absolute” power over their families is like saying racism doesn’t exist because we no longer have laws allowing segregation.

137. Honey 137

     I would have said sexist and not patriarchal…but the reason that society is still sexist is because of its patriarchal roots, so I don’t think it’s all that much of a stretch.

138. Karl R 138

     Cilla said: (#136)
     “Just a few other definitions found from following the first few Google hits under ‘patriarchy.’ The last one is from the Miriam-Webster dictionary.”

     Why did you edit out most of the Miriam-Webster definition?

     from Miriam-Webster:
     patriarchy:
     “social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line; broadly: control by men of a disproportionately large share of power”

     In the US:
     Decisions inside a family are generally made jointly by the parents, not exclusively by the husband.
     Wives are not legally dependent upon their husbands.
     Inheritance is divided equally among the surviving children, not just the males (this is the default in the absence of a will)
     Wives and children generally (but not always) use the father’s surname.

     So of the four elements you edited out, three would indicate that the US is not a patriarchy.

     I agree that women aren’t proportionally represented in the government, but they control at least half the vote and have the legal right to hold every position of political power.

     Tying this back into the original topic:
     If you’re on a first date, and you point an accusing finger at a large group, and your date is part of that group … you just killed your chance of getting a second date. It doesn’t matter what group the person belongs to (fat, thin, male, female, democrat, republican).

     That kind of behavior eliminates options. And in dating, you want to keep your options open.

139. Janet 139

     Actually, many people in dating want to narrow down their options.

     Karl, there are many applicable definitions of “patriarchy” depending on the context. Language is not black and white. The writers’ use of the term on this board has been clear and appropriate. I can appreciate that you and Steve don’t like the term, and I urge you to avoide women who use it. But you do not represent all men.

     I myself avoid people who insist that I use their “approved” definition of a word in my native tongue and who want to argue with me about it.

140. Steve 140

     Karl post #138
     Tying this back into the original topic:
     If you’re on a first date, and you point an accusing finger at a large group, and your date is part of that group you just killed your chance of getting a second date. It doesn’t matter what group the person belongs to (fat, thin, male, female, democrat, republican).

     That kind of behavior eliminates options. And in dating, you want to keep your options open.

     +1

141. Honey 141

     I find the idea that dating is about keeping your options open to be interesting…I am with Janet – the point of dating is to eliminate as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, so that I can find the one worth keeping around.

     I found him, so it worked for me!

     Honey´s last blog post…New Car!

142. Evan Marc Katz 142

     Kids, stop fighting! Don’t make me come back there! If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it!

     People don’t really dig on the negativity, you know. So let’s keep it civil.

143. Selena 143

     Keeping your options open?
     How about:
     “The point of dating is to find someone so you will never have to date again!!!” Arrrggghhh.

     Old joke.

144. Karl R 144

     Janet said: (#139)
     “many people in dating want to narrow down their options.”
     Honey said: (#141)
     “I find the idea that dating is about keeping your options open to be interesting I am with Janet – the point of dating is to eliminate as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, so that I can find the one worth keeping around.”

     Maybe this is a difference between men and women in dating. Evan has mentioned more than once that when he’s on a first date, he’s trying to be the best date possible, so he has the option to have a second date if he wants it. I do the same thing.

     I might decide afterward that I don’t want a second date, but that’s my decision. I want her to want a second date with me regardless.

     Even if we’re discussing volatile topics, I’ll try to come across as moderate, reasonable, open-minded and respecting her opinions. Dating isn’t an adversarial system.

     Even if a date starts the conversation with, “All men are pigs!” I’ll ask her what she means by that. I’ll ask her why she dates men if she thinks so little of them. (And I’ll do my best to sound sincere instead of sarcastic.) I won’t agree with her, but I won’t turn it into an arguement. Even though she has eliminated her option (for a second date with me), I’ll keep open my option (for a second date with her).

     I don’t even see it as a time-saving function to eliminate options. The first date will last roughly the same amount of time regardless, and it will be a lot more pleasant if she likes me for the entire duration of the date.

145. Ruby 145

     Karl R:

     My American Heritage dictionary defines patriarchy as “a system of social organization in which descent and succession are traced through the male line”. While to some extent that may be changing, I’m not sure how you can deny that patriarchy is our legacy.

     Also check out the definition on Wikpedia:
     Patriarchy is the structuring of society on the basis of family units, where the father has the primary responsibility, and hence authority (decision making powers) over the rest of his family members. Patriarchy refers to not just the costs that fathers bear on behalf of their families and at home, but also in society at large: at the workplace, at home, and in human relationships in general. The concept of patriarchy is often used by extension (in anthropology and feminism) to refer to the expectation that men take primary responsibility for the welfare of the community as a whole, acting as representatives via public office, with various forms of authority.
     Western civilization, like most societies in history, is patriarchal, but has recently attempted to legislate for egalitarianism due to sympathy for the Women’s rights’ movement.
     The feminine form of patriarchy would be matriarchy, where the responsibility that men endure under patriarchy, is instead reversed and suffered by women. However, there are no known examples of matriarchal societies.[1]

     “If you’re on a first date, and you point an accusing finger at a large group, and your date is part of that group you just killed your chance of getting a second date. It doesn’t matter what group the person belongs to (fat, thin, male, female, democrat, republican).”

     Generally not part of my first-date repertoire, but again, not a problem if the guy’s a feminist.

146. Honey 146

     For me, being “the best date possible” means that I am the truest to myself and my beliefs, not watering myself down in order to be likeable. I don’t really care if someone likes me or not after a first date…if they don’t like me, it’s probably (largely) because I don’t like them. I don’t have any problem with a mutual rejection.

     When I was dating, I certainly didn’t pick fights or be deliberately abrasive in my conversational style (unless the guy was first and my attempts to encourage respectful dialogue failed). But it isn’t necessary to pick a fight in order to determine that someone’s not right for you.

     Studies have shown that we are happier the fewer choices we have, and unhappier the more choices we have. So I’m all about eliminating options as quickly as possible. That’s one of the things I liked about online dating – I could weed out most folks with a real lifestyle incompatibility prior to even going on a date with them in person. And then once I met them in person, I usually decided whether there would be a second date within 30 minutes anyway.

     So when you say “the first date will last roughly the same amount of time regardless,” how long are you thinking? I mostly went for coffee or a beer someplace walking distance from my house so I could leave after half an hour if it wasn’t clicking or extend into dinner if it was. And I wasn’t above faking an emergency phone call from a friend and leaving sooner if it seemed to be clicking for the guy but not for me (which, sadly, seemed to be quite a bit of the time).

     Immature? Perhaps. But since I met the BF when I was 25, I was that age or younger when I made all these choices. While I probably wouldn’t fake a phone call now, I would certainly say, “I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is going to work for me – best of luck on your search,” throw some cash down on the table to cover my share, and leave. My time’s too valuable, and so is theirs – why would I waste both when we could be finding someone who is right for each of us?

     Even when I was in my early twenties when guys would call to ask for a second date, I usually said, “I appreciate your interest, but I’m just not interested. Sorry.” And that was that. Faking interest in someone to keep my options open just isn’t my style.

     Honey´s last blog post…New Car!

147. Evan Marc Katz 147

     I can’t tell you how much I disagree with Honey. Okay, I can.

     That “half-hour to impress, throw down some cash, show me what you got, buddy” attitude is exactly what’s wrong with dating.

     If I gave my wife a half-hour to impress me before ditching her because I didn’t “feel it”, I wouldn’t be married today. And it would be my loss.

     Oh, and I’m pretty sure that by being “true to myself” and going home to catch “Lost” after twenty mediocre minutes at Starbucks, I’d make my erstwhile wife feel like crap in the process. Yeah, that’s a cool way to be.

     I wrote about it in “Why You’re Still Single”, the way to be when dating is to follow the Platinum Rule. The Golden Rule says to treat others the way you’d be treated. The Platinum Rule says to treat others BETTER.

     Being a great date – or a great partner – is about being selfless. Your description, Honey, is as selfish as it gets.

148. Honey 148

     I’m a little confused by the “throw down the cash” remark because I have never asked a guy to pay for me (when I was a student dating professionals I thought that they *probably* would, because they were making a real salary and I made $10K a year, but I never asked for it). I meant that if a date wasn’t going well then I would pay my way so I wasn’t stealing the guy’s money in addition to not being right for him.

     As far as the half-hour date, that’s EXACTLY how I met the BF. We exchanged maybe 3 e-mails before agreeing to meet…a bar walking distance from my house so I could leave on my own terms if I wanted. I found out later that he’d made plans to go to a party so he could bail if the date was lame, too.

     I knew within half an hour of meeting him that he was different from every other guy, and actually called a friend from the bathroom to tell her how sure I was that everything would work out. I was just as sure that he WAS the one that I had been that everyone prior to him WASN’T.

     We had such an amazing time on the date that he invited me to go with him to the party and I invited him home with me afterwards. We were exclusive (and long distance, as he moved less than a week later) immediately.

     I think that if I’d strung some other guy along because I wanted to “give him a chance” when I knew, 100% KNEW in my guts that it would never work, THAT’S what’s selfish – and that’s what would have prevented me from being single and in a position to meet the BF. I guess I don’t see how refusing to take money from men I’m not interested in or taking up their time when I know they could find someone who would appreciate their complexities when I couldn’t is selfish.

     The first summer we dated, the BF and I visited back and forth every single weekend of the summer except one (and that weekend was torture). The second year we dated we lived in different cities and I put over 10,000 miles on my car just from visiting him. I changed my whole work schedule so I could be with him 4 days/week.

     After that, I gave up my original career trajectory to move to a city where I knew no one and explore new possibilities because being with him was more important than anything else in my life. I supported him when he adopted a dog that I hate, when he got a concealed weapons permit when I think guns are abhorrent. I took him to the hospital at 5 a.m. when he had a kidney stone.

     I’m afraid I just don’t see your point.

     Honey´s last blog post…New Car!

149. hunter 149

     Honey, I sense, most women do not have that special gift you have, of knowing a man is different from other men, in the first 30 minutes of talking to him.

150. Curly Girl 150

     EMK, you owe Honey an apology. She is definitely NOT selfish.

     And it’s nice that you didn’t Starbuck’s your wife on the first date. Don’t do caffeine myself, so I have always appreciated the non-coffee first date. Where DID you go? Or have you already shared and I missed it?

151. Evan Marc Katz 151

     Respectfully, you’re missing the crux of the matter. Honey defends herself by talking about all the thoughtful things she’s done for her boyfriend. That’s not the point. My point is that your approach to treating strangers on dates is toxic. Just imagine if someone treated you like this:

     “Once I met them in person, I usually decided whether there would be a second date within 30 minutes anyway… I mostly went for coffee or a beer someplace walking distance from my house so I could leave after half an hour if it wasn’t clicking or extend into dinner if it was. And I wasn’t above faking an emergency phone call from a friend and leaving sooner if it seemed to be clicking for the guy but not for me (which, sadly, seemed to be quite a bit of the time).”

     You think you’re doing him a favor by not wasting his time? Actually, you’re scarring him.

     Ask any woman who has had a man treat her similarly.

152. Honey 152

     I’m not sure what makes you think I’ve not been treated similarly, EMK. I certainly have – I didn’t take it personally. And it didn’t detract from my ability to recognize the BF for what he is, or cause me to feel like I couldn’t be vulnerable around him, or give me bad feelings about the fellows involved. I just wasn’t right for them – that’s all.

     Honey´s last blog post…New Car!

153. Curly Girl 153

     I think I’m missing something. I thought you were supposed to do the coffee date thing first? And then drive it up a notch if you both agreed to pursue it.

     EMK, when you were doing all that dating you went out on full dates and paid all the time and did a considerate follow-up? Yikes, sounds exhausting. And expensive.

154. Kenley 154

     I’ve never had a guy cut a date short because he wasn’t interested. What I have had is a guy who really isn’t interested in me for anything long term pretend that he is just so he can have sex. And you know what? I’d much rather a guy who isn’t interested tell me so right up front.

     To be fair, Evan, you invited Honey’s list of selfless acts for her boyfriend because you wrote “being a great date — OR PARTNER — is about being selfless.” The truth is being a great date or partner is about balance. You have to be both selfish AND selfless…the tricky part is figuring out when to give your needs/wants/desires priority vs when to give the other person’s needs/wants/desires priority. And, I think that balance is different for different people.

155. Selena 155

     My thoughts were along the same lines as Kenley’s. If you polled women I’d bet the majority would rather find out the guy wasn’t interested within 30 minutes of meeting her opposed to him inexplicably disappearing after a few weeks of dating with sexual involvment.

     Evan, you’ve written men decide within minutes whether they are attracted to a woman or not and that seldom changes. How long does it take them to decide if she is more than just “do-able”?

156. Michael 156

     What I have had is a guy who really isn’t interested in me for anything long term pretend that he is just so he can have sex.
     You do not enjoy sex?

157. Karl R 157

     Selena said: (#155)
     “If you polled women I’d bet the majority would rather find out the guy wasn’t interested within 30 minutes of meeting her opposed to him inexplicably disappearing after a few weeks of dating with sexual involvment.”

     You’re offering a false choice. I’m sure you would prefer that he be rude to you instead of using you for sex, but it’s possible to be polite and honest. I had one date where I decided in the first 5 minutes that it was our last date. I could have ended that before the waitress came around to get our drink order. I’m can imagine what that would have done for the lady’s body image. (Her profile described her as “a few pounds overweight”. I would have described her as morbidly obese.)

     Instead, we had dinner, chatted, and I politely said goodbye at the end and thanked her for an enjoyable evening. I didn’t tell her that I would call her, or say anything that would indicate that there would be a second date. She caught the hint, so nothing more needed to be said.

     If you bail early on a date, you’re sending a message that you can’t tolerate their presence even for a few hours. That’s a rather nasty comment to make. (And a fake emergency is a rather transparent excuse.)

     Sex didn’t enter the equation. I don’t string women along so I can have sex with them. If it’s just going to be sex, I’ll be clear about that up front.

     Selena said: (#155)
     “How long does it take [men] to decide if she is more than just ‘do-able’?”

     I’ve only made that decision once on a first date … and I’d known her for a few weeks before we went out. A couple weeks is probably more normal for me.

     Think about how much information you’re trying to learn:
     Do you enjoy being around this person?
     Do you have common interests?
     Do you share common values?
     Do you get each other’s sense of humor?
     What is this person passionate about?
     Can you tolerate each other’s differences and flaws?

     I can barely scratch the surface of that in the first hour.

158. Honey 158

     To clarify, I faked a phone call once (and that was a guy who I discovered had stalked me for 2 years across 3 dating websites) and I have never found it necessary to end a date early. What I said was that I would. If it were necessary. Most guys are nice, just not right for me – so ending the date without any specific promises and declining a second should they call was enough.

     Fortunately, I do not ever anticipate going on a first date again, so my actions when I was 25 or younger and my hypotheses about what I might do now are, as Joey from Friends would say, “moo.”

     Honey´s last blog post…How Much Do I Invest in Someone Else?

159. Kenley 159

     Karl,

     If a few of the women on here are saying that they would rather a guy who really isn’t interested cut the “date” short rather than pretend to be interested, why don’t you believe them?

     How do you know that your morbidly obese date “got the hint”? Perhaps she waited and hoped and prayed you would call because the evening was so pleasant. You didn’t. So she was may have been left wondering what went wrong.

     For women the line between being polite to them vs misleading them is very, very thin. The women I know like clarity and closure. So, if men decide in 5 minutes that they aren’t interested, we’d prefer to know that. Having a great first date with a guy who doesn’t want to go on date two just confuses us and drives us crazy.

160. Selena 160

     Karl I said nothing about being rude. Ofcourse it’s possible to be polite AND honest. I do think for *blind* dates a short first meeting is appropriate. Better if it can be structured to be expanded if you hit it off – as Honey did when she was dating. Thirty minutes may not be enough time to decide about some people, but more than enough for others. Not necessarily based on looks either; if a man uses “the N word” in my presence, I don’t need to know anything more about him – he has flatly turned me off completely.

     False choice? Just curious if men do decide on a first date whether a woman is relationship material, or just booty-call worthy. ‘Cause I’ll tell ya Karl, sometimes it’s difficult for women to tell which by their words and actions. Until later ofcourse when all is revealed.

161. Karl R 161

     Kenley said: (#159)
     “How do you know that your morbidly obese date ‘got the hint’?”

     From the way her face fell when she realized I wouldn’t be asking her out again. She couldn’t compeletely hide her disappointment.

     “The women I know like clarity and closure.”

     Nobody can give you closure. Closure comes from within. Clarity comes from within as well.

     Three weeks ago I had an enjoyable first date. I e-mailed the lady the next day, but I never heard back from her. After three days I had all the clarity and closure I needed. And I’m no crazier now than I was before the date.

     No answer = “No.”
     That’s clear enough for me.

     Do you honestly believe that my obese date wanted me to tell her that I thought she was unattractive and (more importantly) not all that bright? I think she’s better off not knowing my opinion.

     “If a few of the women on here are saying that they would rather a guy who really isn’t interested cut the ‘date’ short rather than pretend to be interested, why don’t you believe them?”

     If I bail on a date in the first few minutes, that’s going to be humiliating to her. I don’t like being publicly humiliated. None of my friends (male or female) like being publicly humiliated. So I assume that my dates won’t appreciate being publicly humiliated either.

     To put it another way, I place more credibility on my own experiences than your words.

162. Sandra 162

     holy off subject, batman!

     anyways, just wanted to say that I gave a lot of thought about everything everyone said and this weekend tried giving people a chance. It wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be (until some a pleasant young man told me that I had a nice ass…how classy)! It’s sometimes hard to forget that i’m minus 60lbs, you know? But I had a good time just being myself and being able to socialize with guys. Cheers!

163. Steve 163

     @Sandra post #162

     Congratulations, it made me feel good to read that you are enjoying the opportunities you brought to yourself.

     Now get out of our way so we can get back to our vitriolic petty caterwauling .

164. Kenley 164

     Karl,
     I wasn’t suggesting that you should negate your experiences. I was simply sharing my experiences and the experiences of my friends. Although dating would be easier if everyone believed the same things and felt the same way — they don’t. So, I was simply pointing out that women can have different experiences than yours and different needs/desires. However, I do understand your point of view — you don’t want to humiliate your date. I think that approach is fine so wasn’t even suggesting that you should change your behavior. All I was pointing out is that some women might appreciate a different approach as well. There is more than one way to be successful as well as polite when dating.

165. Karl R 165

     Selena said: (#160)
     “Just curious if men do decide on a first date whether a woman is relationship material, or just booty-call worthy.”

     Assuming an on-line dating type circumstance, I have never decided that a woman is relationship material on the first date. I have sometimes decided that she is not relationship material. Generally I’m not even thinking much about it until after the date. I’m a much better date if I stay present in the moment.

     After the date is over, I’ll start thinking about whether the lady is relationship material. Usually I’ll start leaning in one direction or the other, but I tend not to make any decisions until I get to know her better. I usually take a few dates to decide if someone is potential relationship material.

     In comparison, it takes less than five minutes to decide whether a date is sexually attractive. (Sometimes only a few seconds.)

     “Cause I’ll tell ya Karl, sometimes it’s difficult for women to tell which by their words and actions.”

     I can see why. I know whether I want to have sex with you at the beginning of the first date. But unless you’ve said or done something to prove that you’re not relationship material, I might not be sure whether you’re relationship material for a week or more.

     There’s no difference in the behavior … because it’s still one category, not two.

     And in my experience, sex clouds (and therefore prolongs) the decision-making process.

     “Until later ofcourse when all is revealed.”

     There’s your obvious solution. Don’t have sex with him until it’s obvious which category you fall into.

166. Selena 166

     Thanks Karl for answering the question. You explained it very well.
     “And in my experience, sex clouds (and therefore prolongs) the decision-making process.”

     Ain’t that the truth.

167. hunter 167

     Maybe, it is the truth. To add to it, woman’s mind is built to follow a man. Once she is attracted to him, there is little she can do. Women find this frustrating, so I am told.

168. Liz 168

     I’m confused about Ann.
     “I’m a dancer… Last year I had an injury, took a day gig where I sat at a desk all day.”

     “When not doing my creative life I make six figures as a consultant in a male-dominated world.”

     So you took a “day gig” a year ago and now make six figures? I’m confused.

169. hamsterdance 169

     Well, she could do what I did, though in my case it was sort of accidental. I had a profile up on an online dating site for several months, and wasn’t getting many responses on it so I sort of just abandoned it. In the meantime I lost 40 lbs due to medical problems. When I got an email on the site from the man who is now my boyfriend, I realized that all those pics were of me at a much higher weight. I said something to him about it before we met just so he wouldn’t be shocked, but i have to admit that it’s nice knowing it wouldn’t have made a difference to him.

170. Christina 170

     Well you are right Evan, now that she have worked so hard why is she not allowing boys to talk to him and making them feel guilty that is not good at all

171. Zax 171

     I am going to assume that a really rich person would be able to identify another really rich person.  The same way a fat person can identify a fat person.  If it’s right out in the open then you can’t blame someone for noticing. 

172. MySecondHalf 172

     Having lost over 100 lbs (and keeping it off for years) I feel I have something to offer on the subject.  I had some of these same thoughts once I started thinking about dating again after my husband of nearly 28 years died. (widowed at 47.)  I realized that I was not attracted to men who were 50%+ above their healthy weight and so I could understand them not finding me or any obese woman attractive either. I know from personal experience what lies ahead for a person in a LTR with someone who becomes ill and obesity makes many types of illness far more likely.  The writer should enjoy her new weight, let attraction be her guide and look forward to finding that man that makes her heart go thump whenever she thinks of him.

     By the way, most of us become fat not because of emotional issues but because we all eat too many carbohydrates… There is nothing wrong with us..it’s just the food, which is easy to change.

173. Jen 173

     This is just my own experience – and while I don’t claim it is true for everyone, I’m also sure that I’m not alone in it.  I’m currently working on losing weight and making good progress.  I was never more than a few pounds heavier than ideal growing up, but an injury severely limited my activity level when I was 18 and I began gradually gaining weight.  Getting a desk job – when all of my previous jobs had been a lot more physically demanding – contributed to weight gain as well.  It crept up on me, a few barely noticeable pounds each year, over the course of many years, until one day I realized that I was fat. Not morbidly obese – but heavy enough that it was beginning to negatively effect my health and self confidence.  My marriage fell apart.  I know my husband found me less desirable physically.  But more than anything, I think it was my lack of confidence as a sexy woman, that was a turn off.  The more depressed over my appearance I became, the more I changed.  I wasn’t self confident, or energetic, or outgoing anymore.  I pretty much just wanted to hide and not have anyone who knew me before see me that way.  Now, I know this doesn’t apply to ALL overweight people.  Some people have no issues with their size at all, and more power to them.  But I think, in many cases, it is not the size of the person – but the accompanying changes in attitude, confidence, etc. that are the real turn offs.

174. Marcia4444 174

     This is my first time commenting on the threads here.  I’m not in the dating pool but find Evan’s insights really helpful for all kinds of relationships (I have two sons who are often a mystery to me!).  I would like to make two points:
      
     1)  Ann #78′s analogy with Tom Selleck is, unfortunately, 100% correct.  I’m sorry.  You all may not want to hear it, but it’s exactly what many of you have been saying.
      
     2)  That aside, I agree with Evan and others of you who say that she needs to move beyond this.  I think the problem here is that Sandra did not pose the question she was really trying to get answered, and that is why so many are floundering here and getting off topic.  Instead of asking how she should get beyond her resentment, suppose she had asked the following:
      
     “How do I figure out whether any of these guys will stick with me if I lose my looks?  Suppose I have an accident or an illness?  Suppose I have triplets and gain those 60 lbs. back?  These guys who only seem to care about my looks, how do I know if they will stay?”
      
     I think most here would find this question much easier to answer.  There are plenty of men who stick with their wives through cancer, Parkinson’s, MS, car accidents, mental illness (Newt Gingrich and John Edwards aside).  They may not make the news, but there are many of them.  You see them every day.  Would these men *date* a woman with any of these issues?  I don’t know.  I don’t think anybody does.  But will a good man stay?  Yes, he will.
      
     Sandra, I would try and put aside your resentment if you can.  I don’t think it’s the real issue.  I would give Evan’s generally excellent advice a try and I think you will find a guy who will be with you no matter what.
      

175. SophieJ 175

     Dear Sandra,

     Congratulations for your achievement.  In terms of the emotions that you are experiencing they are real to you and you are entitled to what ever you feel.  No one knows exactly what you feel because no one is you.  Take as long as you need to work through your emotions, try not to beat yourself up for feeling the way you do because you are entitled.  What you could do to is give yourself a time frame and work to it.  Meet with a counsellor if you need to, repeat affirmations, and work on feeling happy and content with you, and accept any and all emotions and feelings you experience.  The next time a man comes up to you and hits on you say thanks!  If your upset thats ok.  But set yourself a goal and say the next time a man hits on me im respond in a certain way and im not going to get upset.  After a while of persistent effort you will probably start to respond in a different way.  All I can say is you go girl!!!     

176. Myshelles 176

     Sandra,

     I went through the same thing as you at first.   Many years after my divorce and still dealing with low self esteem from it, I suddenly found out that I had a genetic disease that caused me to be overweight.  When I found out the cause and the cure, I lost over 70 lbs. in a fairly short time frame.  I have literally had people who have known me for years run into me in the grocery store and have a hard time recognizing me because I was so overweight for so long.  All I can say is that as time goes on, I am less suspicious of men being interested as I realized there are guys out there that like women that do not fit the “ideal”.  I am still not thin by any means and will always be considered curvy due to my build.  I believe voluptuous is the term which I know is not the ideal in our society.  However, that being said, what really counts is how you feel about yourself and to heck with every one else!  Not only that but I have ran into many guys that actually don’t like “twigs”.  I think I realized this when I had some  younger guys hit on me in front of my daughter and she informed me I was a cougar…of course I had to explain to here I wasn’t since they were just flirting.  I know better than anyone how much damage being overweight  can do to a person’s self esteem even long after the weight is lost.  If nothing else due to my special diet to stay healthy I have learned that if a man can’t accept me for who I am then I don’t need him. Granted it took a guy splitting on me (first boyfriend after years of being divorced… devastated me) and a few being interested despite my disease which I am upfront and unapologetic about (flattering) to make this really hit home.  Basically, any man who is worth it will accept you in all your phases and love you.  The current guy I am involved with recently saw my fat pictures and knows about my condition and even before he saw them was continually asking me question to try to understand what I deal with.  While this has limited the amount of dates when I was looking, it also weeded out the fluff.  

177. red 177

     I’ve always been a big girl and i’ve never had trouble turning guys heads. I will be marring the most amazing man in the world but it took me so long to let guys in because of my weight.I think that size doesn’t really matter but the way you carry yourself and worry about how others perceive you is why men won’t notice.But if you show confidence and that amazing personality shines through you will have men wanting to be with you.I decided to forget about my size and i landed the most amazing man and he thinks i’m gorgeous If a man is really not willing to see past what society deems as acceptable than do you want that guy in your life to begin with? Now i want to lose all the weight for health reasons and so i have more time with my new family.Always seek those who love you for you no matter what, everyone is entitled to self love and love from others.
     Good luck in the future

178. ayelet 178

     wow evan marc i have to say…. perfect answer! 
     you manage to put your opnion in such a lovely, comprehensible way… it’s unbelievable.
     great work & great website  

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