I Make $40K And My Girlfriend Never Offers To Pay For Anything

“In our society, it has always been customary for a man to pay for a woman’s dinner. Men are wired to protect, and take care of a woman. If he doesn’t want to pay for dinner that is a glimpse into his character and/or how he was raised. Any self-respecting woman should steer clear of such a man. It doesn’t matter if she has decided not to see him again before she even picks up her fork. If he is a gentlemen, he will gladly pay and expect nothing in return.”

Anyone who feels that way should go back and read David’s letter.

Stop acting like you’re six-years-old and don’t have a purse with cash and credit cards in it.

This is a liberal, progressive thinker – a good man of modest means – who is trying to do the “right thing” and pick up the check as the anachronistic rules of chivalry still dictate.

He’s not railing against the concept of picking up the tab while he’s courting her – he’s just annoyed that he feels taken for granted. And when a woman never reaches for the check, offers to split, or insists on picking up the tip, the cab, or the coffee afterwards, it can really start to wear on a guy.

I am a man. You are a woman. You are not poor or helpless or dependent.

So stop acting like you’re six-years-old and don’t have a purse with cash and credit cards in it.

Stop acting like he should be thrilled to drain his account in hopes that he might procure a good night kiss.

Stop acting like you’re not really his equal when you want to be treated equally in every other respect.

As I said here, if we can agree it’s in good form for a man to pick up the check while courting you, we should also be able to agree that it’s in good form for a woman to offer to split the check and/or insist on picking up the check while he’s courting you.

If you think it’s rude when men don’t pay, we think it’s rude when you assume we will pay.

It’s basic golden-rule stuff, y’all.

I’m not expecting much dissent on this one, but if you’re brave enough to explain why the original poster David is wrong, cheap, or short-sighted, have at it.

Personally, I think he speaks for just about every man I’ve ever met who got sick of being an ATM.

Here was my breaking point – when some woman intimated that she was my “sugar mama” after I allowed her to split the check on our fourth date.

And you think that women are the only ones who get burned out on dating…

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290 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice

290 Responses to “I Make $40K And My Girlfriend Never Offers To Pay For Anything”

myhonestanswer 1

If you don’t agree on something as simple as who is paying, this early on in the relationship, you are onto a loser. Sorry, but if you were right for each other, this stuff wouldn’t even register with you. That’s just myhonestanswer.
Christina 2

Yes. Maybe it’s because I came of age in the 80′s, when we girls really were all about being independent and pulling our weight, but I don’t understand the old-fashioned “he always pays” mindset at all. Part of a good dating relationship includes doing nice things for each other, and that means paying for dates, too.
It bothers me quite a bit when women want to have it both ways- be treated as equals when it benefits them, but revert to old-school helplessness when it comes to paying.
Fawn 3

My boyfriend and I take turns paying for our dates. It’s 50/50. I make good money and can take care of myself. Why should I expect him to pay all the time? He takes such good care of me in other ways.
SS 4

I’ve always been one of the ones saying that I expect a man to pay for the first date, and really, the second too.
After that, I have usually offered something. Maybe I buy the ice cream/dessert if he buys the dinner. Or I buy the popcorn if he buys the movie tickets. Or I suggest a restaurant for which I have a coupon/Groupon.

When the two are exclusive, 50/50 or however else the couple wants to handle it is fine.

David, what is this girl’s response to free or cheaper dates? $200 a weekend is a lot… I’ve never been in that kind of dating relationship, except the brief period with the one rich guy who could afford it, and even then, we still went to Outback sometimes!
Also, have you all had a talk about this? If you mention that you only make $40,000 and that you’d still like to go out, but the budget is tight, what is her reaction?
Honey 5

When I was actively dating, I made $13k/year because I was in grad school and dated working professionals almost exclusively. So of course I expected them to pay. When I dated other grad students, I didn’t have that expectation.

When I started dating Jake, he always paid because he was making $90K+ per year and I was making (at first) the aforementioned $13K and then (after I graduated), $40K. If I had been expected to chip in then we wouldn’t have been able to go out.

Now it will be interesting to see how things change. We are officially engaged, but actually eloped a few weeks ago without telling anyone so that he could quit his job and start his own business but still have health insurance. So for now we are going dutch when we go out (and cutting way, way back on going out) until we see what kind of money he makes.
Julie 6

You failed to mention the girlfriends financial status? Can she afford to help pay for the dates? Does she suggest expensive restaurants all the time and you agree knowing your going to have to pay. The answer to this seems simple, just talk to her about her and explain your financial situation and you love spending time with her but can’t afford to do the same things your doing if she doesn’t help pay for the dates. If she blows up at you then she is not the women you would want to form a future with, right?
Honey 7

I will also add that during the “he paid for all going out” period, I did all the housework, grocery shopping, and cooking. Now that he is going to be working from home, he’s going to do half of that stuff.
Ms Maz 8

(Long time lurker, first time commenting!)

I’m all with Fawn, #3!

I’d never expect a guy to pay for me. In fact, it bothers me when he does. I’m the kind of gal who has pretty much been out on her own since the age of 17, working since 14. I always feel guilty when I am not contributing to some aspect of a date, therefore, I always do my best to make sure I contribute something, whether it’s the tip, the dessert, or my meal in general. I’ve never felt comfortable having someone pick up my tab for anything, but perhaps that’s just because I’m so used to doing everything for myself.

I may only make maybe 28K, but I work two jobs, attend nursing school, own my home and a car. I STILL refuse to have a man pay for me. I just think it needs to be fair and well rounded on each side. My boyfriend is a touring musician, so he’s not exactly raking in the bucks, either, but I don’t care about that. We try to find ways to make dates fun and economically sound. I don’t mind picking up my part of the check or covering his drinks because I know he’ll do it for me when it’s his “turn.” Isn’t that what we should be striving for in a relationship? Equality, all the way around? It’s kind of selfish and unfair to have such archaic expectations of a guy.

It’s unfortunate that something so fun and exciting often turns into a big fat hole in your pocket. This ancient standard needs to be done away with, pronto!
MysteeBee 9

I agree with SS on this: it’s nice for the guy to pay for the first and second date. He can pick the venue, so he should select something he feels comfortable paying for. This just establishes that’s he’s interested. After that, there can be more sharing, and when there’s a bf/gf relationship, it can be more 50/50.
David, you’ve clearly shown her you’re into her on this front, so I’d just suggest telling her honestly what’s bothering you and see how she reacts.

Also, Honey’s comment about housekeeping, cooking etc brings up another interesting point, in that women who live with their partners often have this second, unpaid job that they’re expected to do…so things not being equal that way anyhow, it seems reasonable for the man to bring a bit more money into things, unless he’d like to do laundry and some cleaning and grocery shopping too.
Cecilia 10

There are other ways a woman can make a man feel appreciated during dating besides offering to pay on dates – eg cooking at home, coming up with theatre, movie or concert tickets, preparing a surprise picnic etc etc etc
Lovestuff 11

People are just different.
I have girlfriends who are exactly like David’s girl and they have never paid for anything; they don’t believe in it, nor were they raised that way. There are even men who feel like it’s never a woman’s job to pay for anything. But then there’s me…I’ve always paid half for everything in a relationship even when I was just seriously dating someone and not in a relationship. And sometimes, I feel like I’m cheapening myself.
Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Can we really blame the men or the women?
More often than not, women act or think this way because they have been taught to believe that men take care of women and one way men take care of women is through financial means. But sometimes, it’s enough to say to a woman…”I would love to buy you everything your heart’s desire, but right now I just can’t.”
If this is such an issue…why not tell your significant other and if she/he doesn’t like it, then it’s something you have to decide if you can put up with it.
garnet 12

Okay Evan, I’ll rise to your challenge. Please hear the playful tone in my fingers as I type this.
I do think the man-always-pays rule is silly. I also think the men-date-younger, women-date-older rule is silly. You have argued successfully that I should accept that latter rule. You say that’s how it is, and I can’t expect to change it. You say that I can play by the rules, or I can stay at home on Saturday night.
So… shouldn’t you be saying the same thing to this guy? Are you here to advocate for change, or to figure out how to work optimally in the system we have? Your response to this guy makes me think you might want to have it both ways….?….
Bren 13

I believe the issue here is that it needs to be discussed openly…

I am now 57 and divorced…and living on very little money… with very little extra cash to spend… It was always my experience that when a man invites you to dinner or lunch or whatever.. he does plan to pay for it…and I have always shown my appreciation… by thanking him and then offering to do other things within my means…

I was recently dating someone… While discussing our lives and how we live.. I told him about my meager living up front…so he knew… I had no idea what his finances were like… He invited me out to a few meals… nothing fancy…we went camping and so on….. I purchased groceries on a couple of camping trips….brought snacks and beverages….picked up breakfast a couple of times… told him to toss his fruit in with my groceries… made him dinner… and contributed to a meal here and there….

He invited me to an event he wanted me to attend with him.. so that he could introduce me to things he likes….. He was preregistered but…he had not done so for me… When we got there.. I was surprised to find them asking me for $45 cash or check I did not have… No cards taken so.. there I stood.. I turned to him…and then he said he had it…. and I was “his guest anyway”… So I got the feeling there was an issue… I’m not sure that all I did do was enough for him…. but he NEVER would discuss what he really needed from me… I wish he had been willing to….

Yes…money can be an uncomfortable thing to discuss but it’s necessary… If you are dating and need the other person to contribute in some way.. it’s important to be able to express what you need… If you cannot do it now… how will you do it if the relationship goes further?

Maybe you just don’t go out to dinner as much…and instead have fun cooking together at home… Take her out when you can…and do things that are not costly otherwise… When I was dating my ex-husband we took turns…. one got the meat…the other picked up the wine… I do believe a woman needs to show you she appreciates you by doing what she can to contribute…

I’ve made picnic lunches and brought the food & wine to outdoor concerts…etc… There are ways within your means to show someone you want to do for them as well… and do it within your means….

I’d appreciate feedback on this question?

If a man does have much more money to spend than I… isn’t it okay for him to pick up these dates he is inviting me on…..and allow me to do all those things I do to show my appreciation… within my means?
SS 14

Lovestuff @11
You are absolutely right. I have experienced all of this.

All but one of the men I dated paid on the first two dates. I used to attempt to assist with something (part of the bill, the tip, dessert) on the first two dates, but because all of the men asked me out and all of them paid for everything without hesitation, that became my preferred option.

There were two men who wouldn’t let me pay for anything, even after we’d been on the fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh date. I offered, but they shut me down each time. Both of these men were conservative Southerners. Me paying for anything was simply not an option. Now they did both make more than me, but still… we weren’t going to expensive restaurants. I could have picked up a joint tab of $16 at Cracker Barrel.

I personally never wanted to have the attitude that I pay for nothing because I’m a woman, although those two Southern guys sure made it difficult to go back to a more egalitarian system, lol. BUT, I never was going to get into the mold of always paying half of everything. I know I got into a big ole argument with folks on another post about this, but I don’t believe in 50/50 straight-down-the-middle behavior in a relationship. I do, however, think that men and women can contribute equitably to a relationship without them having to take on the same roles (for example: men paying for most of the dates, but women helping with tips or snacks, doing a nice home-cooked meal, planning a picnic lunch, etc.)

But it’s up to each couple to figure that out and what works for them. I don’t have a problem if David’s date is one who expects men to pay for everything, although this type of woman might need to find a conservative Southerner if that’s what she expects!!!! That could be how she was raised and that could be what she’s experienced from past dates.

BUT, if David wants to continue to be with her, he MUST have a discussion with her about his financial situation. They can either work out a good compromise (like cheaper or free dates), or he might have to find someone else.
A-L 15

I’m going to admit what I’ve done, and what I think.

What I’ve done
I’ve always offered to help pay for a date, unless the dating pattern with a particular male was so entrenched that I knew he would never accept that I help pay and that I was mortally wounding his sense of masculinity by even offering. Living in the south, most of the men always refused my help. There was only a small handful that let me pick up the cost of anything, and to be honest, maybe only about 30-40% of the time or so. So they would usually pick up the majority of the cost. (This does not count for coffee first dates as that was frequently dutch as whoever would get their first would get their own drink, then the person coming second would get their own.)

What I think
I’m with BeenThruTheWars with this one (or what I expect her to say). It’s really nice when a man pays. It doesn’t have to be expensive. It can be McDonald’s, or going to free festivals/concerts, playing Wii, renting a movie from Blockbuster (or heck, for free from the library).

This is not to say that the woman shouldn’t contribute. She can buy tickets to the theater or football game. She can find coupons/gift certificates for favorite restaurants. She can also cook. I usually cooked at least one meal out of three that boyfriends and I had, and it was good food too.

Of the guys I dated who let me pay, each of them ended up being a real jerk in some important aspects. In contrast, about 10-15% of the guys who paid ended up being real jerks. Is it possible to date a great guy where the financial costs are split more evenly? Absolutely. At the same time though, I didn’t have that experience.

The man I ended up marrying paid for most of our dates out (unless it was the opera or symphony in which case I definitely paid). We’re both teachers so neither of us is wealthy, and we earn a comparable amount of money. Now that we’re married we have a joint account so now there is no s/he paid, it’s we paid.
Katarina Phang 16

First, why would the OP even consider spending $200 every week? That’s plain idiocy, I’m sorry. You still can have wonderful dates without paying a dime. My date took me to the Farmer’s market, got some oysters ($10), then to “Psychiatry: The Industry of Death” museum in LA sponsored by the Church of Scientology and we had a blast. It was free.

Second, most women (at least myself) give in different ways. I don’t wait till 5 dates to start giving him something. i cooked or got him little gifts (one time I brought him his favorite fried chicken, got him milk when he was sick). For example, after the museum we ended up shopping and he almost got a brain hemorrhage because he couldn’t find me since I got so hooked on the summer dress section. I felt bad so I insisted on paying for his french press.

Then he took me to lunch at a sports bar. We split a sandwich. We got a couple of beers and it only cost him round $20. The we hung out at my place.

It was the most wonderful date ever and we had a blast.

A lot of times we just hung out at his place watching movies/shows or walking his dog/hiking, dog playdate, etc, and ate in. There are so many ways to have a fabulous date, who says you need to pay $200/week? Be creative. It’s the company not how much you spend.
Sherel 17

First few dates , guy ask, guy pays after that they can alternate or split depending on who does the asking. I have some guys that never let me pay, but most are OK with splitting it or alternating. Some dates even before we go, it’s known who is paying. I like nice places and things and have no problem paying.
Angie 18

David, I agree with you. She sounds like a high-maintenance taker. Are you sure you want a relationship with her?

I am a bit surprised you are having $200 dates anyways. That’s a lot of dough. Are you planning these outings, or is she? If you are picking the restaurants, etc, then perhaps you should start going to cheaper places and see if she acts like she is too good for this kind of stuff.

Either way YOU need to address it. This girl obviously isn’t going to start making offers. Speak up (in the politest way possible), or get out of this one and find a more generous girl. Just do it now, before you are a few months in and you snap.
Detha 19

I think the posters girlfriend should at least OFFER to pay, some of the time. This way it gives him the choice to say no, he is fine with paying. I think he should get rid and move on.
Vaness 20

I have to agree with garnet, and please dont take offense Evan. But If I must look good, stay in the best possible shape , quoting your words accept things men do out of nature then David should date within his range. Someone that is ok with 50.00 weekend dates. Or date someone who enjoys paying their share or that occasional dessert. You say date the man that likes you. David should date the girl that wants to pay half. David is simply dating out of his league and it will surely end when she realizes he is not being true to himself. Evan you should advice this man to be true to himself he is breaking your first rule.
Nia 21

Hi Evan, I’m just curious – do you think men and women should split the bill no matter what? I know you’re blog is mostly directed to ‘strong, successful women’ – but what if you’re not either, and happy being that way? I earn about the US equivalent of $12k a year and mostly date men who earn the equivalent of $100k – I’m not an Alpha female, and happily let my man lead (as per one of your previous posts). I want to marry, and when I do, will delight in being a ‘housewife’ and raising our children – I get treated as if I just pooped on the floor by many wimen for saying that, but I feel it’s what would make me happy and I will not feel the need to work in order to be fulfilled. I believe I bring many other qualities to the relationship aside from money, and I would like a boyfriend – and eventually husband – to be able to support me so I can be all those other things – does that, in your opinion, make me child like in my behavior and generally wrong? Do you believe I should still be splitting bills even though my dates earn approx 8-10 times more than me? I appreciate that if we’re dealing with two ‘high fliers’ then the women wantung to be Alpha *and* still have everything bought for her may seem a little like she wants the best of both worlds but can’t we still enjoy the ‘traditional’ way of things, if that’s our choice? Interested in your thoughts…
Evan Marc Katz 22

I hear you, Vaness and Garnet. And, if you noticed, I said a man SHOULD pick up the check on the first few dates while courting because that’s what society expects and that’s what’s “effective”.

However, I don’t think David is dating out of his league. I think he’s dating the wrong woman.
Evan Marc Katz 23

@Nia – I’ve never said men and women should split the bill. I’ve said that entitlement is not an attractive quality, no matter how much the guy makes. So, as a woman, you should genuinely thank him every single time he reaches for the check, occasionally reach for it and insist on picking it up, and if that’s simply not possible, compensate by giving in whatever way you can. I never expected my wife to pick up a check because I made a lot more than she did, but she still offered from time to time at the beginning of our relationship. Her gesture was greatly appreciated, if not accepted.
Donna 24

When I was in my 20s and my boyfriend made at least double what I made, our agreement was that I’d pick up the tab for every 3rd time out, which was fair. Now that I’m older and most anyone I date makes much more than I make, I still offer drinks or tip every few times. Can’t say I’m not glad when they don’t accept, but it is good to offer so they don’t feel taken advantage of. Or at least cook them a good meal every few times you go out! Do something !
Lisa M. 25

This is one of the things that has made it so very easy for me not to commit and why I have decided to stay on the sidelines for so long. I HATE DATING! The male and female dating and mating dynamic is so out of whack. It all just gives me a headache. If I offer to pay or split the check — there are some men who will think that I’m being too masculine and in some cases become offended and if I don’t pay then I’m using them as an ATM.

Where does all the madness end?
NN 26

Why?
I have grown in a family, where my mother had more money, and she made sure that both of her children were educated so that they never would be dependent of any man.
I earn a bit more than an average man here, so I can pay a date, but if if a guy expects me to pay (during the first few dates) then he is history.

I don’t need a cheap partner, and I can pay my single life in the future.

What I hear of Evan’s response, is what I would avoid.. I just don’t want to be “we” with a man like that. Companionship with a man like that would be a drag.
Simply because if that little money what my dinner costs is important enough for a man to complain about, I am sure he would also complain about my spending of my own money, when he realises how I love to splurge my hard earned cash on shoes etc… and I don’t care to explain where my money goes, or how much I earn to any cheap man who thinks what I want it is unnecessary for me.

Age old question, which once was applied to men.. why buy a cow when you can get milk for free? So being single is easiest, no need to explain to anyone and I always get milk when I want it. =).. and a good companion for me, is such with whom money is not important issue at all.
Nia 27

Hi Evan… Super appreciate you giving your thoughts… I never expect it, do offer to split sometimes, often pay for ‘smaller’ parts of the date ie he pays for dinner & I pay for drinks after – and I always shows lots of appreciation & thanks afterwards – even if we’ve been together a year or two… So I’m really pleased we still *appear* to be on the same page here as I REALLY like your blog! Yay!
NN 28

Applied to women.. *corrects*

Anyway, if I insist to pay when I am on a first date with man, that is a way to say that “I don’t trust you enough, therefore I don’t want to be beholden to you in any way at all”. That is the last date we are having.

Men miss that signal totally =D..
Victoria 29

What stood out to me in this post was how unappreciated he felt & that he thought ‘she would explode’ if he brought up this subject…sounds like he knows he’s dating an emotionally unhealthy woman
Bren 30

If you say that you are “100% willing to pay” for the dates….then do so…. BUT keep it within your means…

Even if you say you’re going to put chicken on the grill… and you already have a bottle of wine… ask if she could bring a salad…and maybe that great ice cream you had at her house…for desert… Just ask….

If she asks you about “going out” then let her know you’d love to… but you just need to curb your spending a bit…so you thought of some great things to do in between those dinners out… She’s either going to understand and you’ll both do things you can afford… or she’ll show you who she really is….good or bad…
Jane 31

@Bren: It has been my experience that men do not equate the kinds of things you referred to as a contribution as something that equalizes anything. It doesn’t seem to register with them that a meal cooked at home — especially if you try to make really interesting dinners– costs. And can cost a lot.

I recently dated a guy who would come over for dinner I prepared. He would bring a movie so— dinner and a movie at my house.. I didn’t really think about what these dinners along with wine and desert cost me until I noticed when we were out that he expected me to pay part or all of a lunch. I started thinking about it and realized I was spending quite a bit on nice dinner ingredients and he was expecting me to ante up money for other meals. He did not contribute to meals in any other way– dessert, wine, flowers!! I’ve noticed this dinner-at-home oversight before. Those dinners are not free! Not to mention the menu planning and shopping in addition to the preparation

Couples (everybody) should do nice things for each other. The best relations I’ve seen involve reciprocity. Some people are really happy to do things (and pay) for their dates at least some of the time. I like the equitability method rather than the 50/50 and I will still offer pay for something outside the split agreement. Btw, I no longer date that guy. I realized he is too selfish in many , too many ways.

As to our poster: communicate but do so in a tone that will build empathy– like @Lovestuff suggested. I think the poster sounds like a good guy and if this woman doesn’t think he is a keeper someone else will.
Martha 32

INteresting. I just tuned into this blog because I wanted to write Evan with a variation of the same question. What ever happened to, “I’ll pick up the check this time, you get it next time”? To me that is a signal that we want to continue to see each other. It’s flattering and fun to always be either treating someone or being treated.

I’m a 40 something feminist female, recently out of a 2 year relationship with a man who always split things 50/50 IF I didn’t pick up 100% of the check, which I often did because I made not a huge salary, but twice what he did as a freelance writer. I have a lot of men friends and always splitting the check 50/50 is my signal to them that we are Just Friends. I hated the 50/50 split at every meal and event with this man that I was in a serious relationship with. And yes, I talked with him about trading back and forth, but that went nowhere.
Now I’m doing on-line dating. I lost my job so money is tight right now. I feel fine about paying separately at a first meeting because it is more of a meeting than a date. I suggest inexpensive activities such as meeting for coffee or a walk.

I am very far from a gold digger, but I’m surprised that men do not offer to pay for my $10 movie ticket when they ask me out for a subsequent date or they suggest more expensive restaurants and then expect me to pick up half the tab. I’m talking businessmen and doctors! They know my financial situation. I would like to pay for some things, but if there is a big difference in salary, I think the person who has more $$ picks up the tab for more expensive dates; the one with less money picks up the tab for ice cream or drinks or meals at the local diner.

How do I tell men that I no longer want to date them because I’m looking for a man who is considerate of my situation and that I want to be courted/flattered/wooed, which, when I look at the animal kingdom, I think is basic biology? If a man wants me to pay separately for all my expenses, then he’s looking for a buddy to hang with, not a potential partner.
Cecilia 33

in addition to my last post…I feel I should also add that as a single mom who has to cover the cost of the babysitter just to be able to go out on a date in the first place I don’t appreciate being expected/asked to split the tab! FYI I do not expect my dates to cover the cost of a babysitter – tho it is definitely appreciated when they offer…
Angie 34

Maybe people should just stop dating beyond their means, and both genders should be honest about it. If a friend was asking you to go out to $200 dinner/theater shows/concerts EVERY week, you’d easily put your foot down (unless that is within your price range), but you WOULD do it every now and then.

If your “usual” night out is in the $20-40 range, keep it consistent when suggesting dates.

@Martha #32 – I wouldn’t let your experiences with your cheap ex-boyfriend spoil future dates. If you do a first date “coffee” meetup, I would suggest getting their first and buying your coffee, or letting him pay. (If he is disappointed, just say something like you felt “safer” being off the hook since it was a first meeting, but he can pay next time – this way you haven’t established that you want to pay all the time).
NN 35

#32 Martha said the same I meant too:

“I have a lot of men friends and always splitting the check 50/50 is my signal to them that we are Just Friends”

To me it means the same, we’ll never be an item. and so it goes, it is a “next”-sign. We might become /are friends, but nothing more..
nathan 36

It’s so fascinating how much this not paying for the first few dates triggers such knee jerk judgments. Men who don’t pay are cheap. Women who don’t pay are gold-diggers. I mean, seriously, how simplistic!
I wrote on another post awhile back that I think the whole guy must pay for first date thing is a rigid story from our past, but that I end up paying for most first dinner dates anyway, knowing that it’s such a commonplace expectation.
And what’s also ridiculous is that Lisa’s comment about being called “masculine” by men when she offers to pay just shows that a lot of folks of both genders are still sticking to this narrative, even though it makes less and less sense, given than men and women are getting closer to earning equally. (Evan, women are still behind men overall when it comes to earnings – the glass ceiling still exists.)
The way I see it, if there is a great income disparity, the one with the larger salary should cover the bulk of costs for things like going out for dinner, movies, music, etc. And if there isn’t much of a disparity, then it’s up to the couple to decide what to do – whether to split 50/50, switch off paying, or whatever.
Jane, I recently cooked dinner for a date – something I like to do when I get the chance. You’re very right about the cost, and if someone isn’t at least appreciative, it kind of makes you wonder if a relationship is going to be worth it.
Back to David’s letter, the best thing I can offer is to bring it up, no matter how you think she might react. That kind of thing can easily become a resentment that blows up in much worse ways later on. And if she’s totally into herself, and not someone who will “have your back” sometimes, then it’s best to know now, rather than a year or two down the road.
Evan Marc Katz 37

@Cecilia – Do you offer to pay for HIS babysitter if he’s a single dad and you wrote to him first online? I sure hope not…

Furthermore, there are actually men who offer to pay for your babysitter? Really?
Ruby 38

In my experience, I’d like the man to pick up the check the first couple of times we go out. After that, I will offer to pay for something smaller, like our drinks (I am job-hunting at the moment). Most men who have been more serious about me won’t let me pay for much, if anything. The ones who have or even asked me to split things turned out to be jerks, in contrast to a much smaller percentage of “payers”, as A-L said. After there’s a real relationship beyond dating, it’s more up to the individual couple and their circumstances.

In David’s case, I am surprised that the woman is accepting such expensive dates and not at least offering to pitch in for anything at all. I don’t know how much money his girlfriend makes, but she could offer to cook dinner for him or do something else that isn’t pricey depending on her means. I do find it disturbing that David thinks his girlfriend is going to “explode” if he brings the subject of money up – not a good sign.

Martha #32

I never pick up the tab when meeting someone for coffee for the first time, although sometimes a guy will make it known that he expects me to pay. Those who do that almost never have any real interest in me, and that is one of the ways I gauge the date. My suggestion is to stop offering to pay for your $2.00 coffee and let the man pick up the tab. He probably was the one who asked you out anyway, so he should pay.
Ruby 39

Also, David mentions that his friend has never offered to pay, not even a “disingenuous offer”. He says, “I want to have that feeling, like if we’re at a bar and my girl comes up to me and asks me what I want. It’s like she has my back. It’s not about the cash- it’s more about being appreciated and not taken advantage of.” I’ll be he is the kind of guy who would still pay even if she did offer. I get the sense that he doesn’t entirely trust her, that he’s afraid of her anger, and of finding out that she’s an entitled princess type.
Bren 40

@Jane – I agree… dinners at home can be costly… I do this because I want to give to that person in a way I can afford to…. and when I am the one doing the cooking I can control the costs…

When a man invites me to dinner at XYZ restaurant…. I believe he is also choosing to do something he can afford… He could just as easily choose to invite me over to his house for a frozen gourmet pizza and salad! Someone I’m dating just just did that…and then two days later he took me to brunch at a place he really loves and wanted to introduce me to…

As long as everyone feels they want to reciprocate in the way they can afford to… it can balance out without everyone keeping a score card!
Sally 41

@ NN

I think the alternate phrase you are referring to is “Why buy the whole pig when all I want is a sausage now and then?”
david 42

I always pay on the first date — even if it went shitty and she was rude or unpleasant — ’cause I rather “feel like a schmuck” (i.e. felt underappreciated) than “LOOK like a schmuck” (i.e. look cheap)…. first date guy paying — it’s the cost of dating — it’s what it is…. I never think twice about it

But after date 3 or 4, if the woman doesn’t offer, doesn’t thank me, doesn’t fake a move to the purse, doesn’t offer to pick it up this time, I start to feel a little weird and not good about things in the pit of my stomach….
Katarina Phang 43

I’m sorry people, splitting a dinner 50/50 is ICKY. That’s hardly romantic and it will kill my libido for this man forever. Don’t do it.

I don’t care how alpha a female you are and how much you make or how little the he makes, if you want a masculine guy who takes charge, that’s not how to do it. That doesn’t feel feminine, number one, and it’s eventually emasculating to him (like, “what I can’t even afford to pay her dinner?” ). It kills the romance. He doesn’t feel masculine doing that and it’s very much like some others say: A FRIEND ZONE.

Ask yourself if you feel all womanly and taken cared of/loved/adored/cherished to split the check 50/50? Men need to woo you to fall in love with you and we women need to feel wooed too.

It’s not about the money. It’s about what works instinctively on the most primal level. We haven’t evolved that much since the days of our ancestors.

I would prefer letting him pay for every date and I give back in different ways (there are so many creative ways to pay back what he spends on you, and it can include or exclude money or paying for something). You see, he will feel manly and like a sufficient provider and you will feel cherished and in a feedback loop it increases passion in relationship because the two of you are so polarized (feminine vs. masculine).

Nobody feels cheated or taken advantage of. in fact each one feels his manhood and her womanhood being magnified and appreciated. Each respects the other and both are more than happy to give now because they find out the more they give, the more they receive from the other.
Bren 44

I agree that in David’s case… if they do not talk about how to cut costs together.. then he may get to a point of resentment… and then nothing is going to come out that will be productive…

Is she really going to explode? Or are you afraid to say what you need….thinking you may offend her to the point of being upset with you?

The longer you wait to talk about what you NEED… the worse it could become… The two of you have played your roles thus far….she may not realize that you want or need anything different unless you express it in a non threatening or non judgmental way…

In other words… “I’m wondering if we could take turns making dinner or cook together… I think that would be fun…and then we’ll go out nice dinner every couple of weeks or breakfast on Saturdays”….You might even tell you you need to cut back on going out so much and ask for ideas of things you two can do together…. OR whatever you both decide together that works… but engage her in the process of deciding how you will proceed from here…

Rather than saying something after you work up anger over it… talk about what you NEED now… Not what she is not doing… and see how she responds… If she is a nice person… she’ll roll right into this idea with you… If she just wants to be entertained… you’ll find that out too!
Victoria 45

Re: Evan’s last comment:
my late husband offered to cover pay my baysitting costs when we were first dating….of course that was over 25 years ago…sigh…
Zann 46

Isn’t this just basic common sense? The majority of women work outside the home now, especially single women. And the majority of us know how to take care of ourselves financially. I make good money, but I’ve had relationships with men who made much more than me and who also have had expensive tastes when it came to entertainment, travel, gifts, etc. In those relationships, I make it a point to talk about the money issue early on & we’ve always been able to come to a workable agreement. In most cases, it’s totally doable if you’re both mature and sane and have even an ounce of creativity.

If a guy asks me out on a date, it never fails to thrill me when the meal is over & without hestitation, he reaches for the check. No quibbling, no negotiating, no counting nickels. To me it says he 1) planned ahead before asking me; 2) has social grace; and 3) was happy to pay for the opportunity of possibly getting to know me better. I find that flattering and touching. I’ve had more than my fill of Mr. Casual, “Hey, let’s meet somewhere and eat something, but don’t expect me to pay cuz, hey, it’s 2011 & we’re just chillin’…. but when we’re done eating, let’s have sex. At your place. And drink your wine or vodka.”

I do not expect to be whined and dined on a regular basis, nor would I ever assume that it’s “on him,” unless we’ve discussed it beforehand. But a little generousity goes a long way.

As for David, I could be wrong, but I get the feeling he’s dating this woman for something other than her great personality (of which he doesn’t say a word). Maybe she’s hot or provides him with status in some other way, but clearly it’s not working for him. But the real clincher is that he’s afraid to broach the subject for fear she’ll explode. Wow. David, if this flag was any redder, it would ignite. What she is doing is rude, and if you don’t speak up about it, you’re being her willing doormat. And nothing is less sexy than that.
nathan 47

I would hope that women recognize that men are often expected to do the asking out, choosing of place to go, etc. in the beginning. It should go without saying then that in following the “you asked, you pay” rule, men are going to be paying for the initial dates most of the time.
Perhaps there are more “cheap men” out there than I thought. I don’t know.
But if some of you all are then adding this “men need to woo women” bullshit on top of the expectation that we’re asking and paying, it can get pretty expensive fairly fast. Apparently, for some women, if you aren’t forking it out regularly, you aren’t seriously interested.
Bren 48

This is eye opening… Evan…

Don’t you think being appreciative.. offering do reciprocate in whatever way you can afford is acceptable as long as it is to both people?

Are you saying that men in general are going to expect you to pay…or they will not not date you… so get used to it?
SS 49

I have heard a few men say they will pay for babysitting costs if they are dating a single mother.

Not saying it’s the norm across the board, but I have heard this before from multiple sources.

Most of the single mothers I know though usually aren’t asking men out, so they probably wouldn’t be in a position to have to potentially offer to pay his babysitting costs.

As for the single dads, I haven’t dated a lot of them, but the ones I did date typically didn’t have their kids during the week, so babysitting often wasn’t an issue. Our relationships never became serious though, so I don’t know if there would have been a need for babysitting services later on.
monica 50

equality does not mean symmetry. if they get married, when she is cooking or washing his clothes, she will not tell him, i made my dish and yours, now you must make the dessert. she will not say when she is washing his clothes, i washed the shirts, why don’t you wash the pants? when she has his baby she will not say, i am delivering the baby all by myself, you are so mean and ungrateful! the least he can do is pay the bill. without complaining.
Angie 51

@ nathan #47

“But if some of you all are then adding this ‘men need to woo women’ bullshit on top of the expectation that we’re asking and paying, it can get pretty expensive fairly fast.” – HAHA. I might be saying this b/c I am younger (29) and very independent, but while I appreciate men paying for dates, I am actually turned OFF by excessive wooing. I value financial independence, but actually agree with this statement in relation to David:

Zann #46:

“I get the feeling he’s dating this woman for something other than her great personality … Maybe she’s hot or provides him with status in some other way”

Most men that feel they HAVE to pay and are resentful and b/c they think it’s the only way they can hang onto a woman, and aren’t doing it b/c they “believe in chivalry”, are completely unimpressive. It makes me think they feel they don’t have anything to offer other than $$$ (and what it can buy).

Granted, that most likely is the case with this particular girl that David is seeing. Like Zann says, maybe she’s hot!
Katarina Phang 52

Nathan #47, wooing doesn’t mean paying for expensive dates. Wooing can be free too. Wooing is showing the woman you’re interested in that she’s worth it, that she is adored. If you are not willing to do it for a woman, that only means you’re not that into her or she’s not the right woman for you.
Wooing comes natural for a man who is interested in a woman. It’s basic human interaction across history. That’s part of animal’s mating ritual (we’re animals too, though much more evolved than the rest in animal kingdom). You don’t have to like it but it’s proven to have worked for thousands of years. It’s printed in our DNA. Ignore it at your own peril.
Bren 53

“even when we’re not on dates, she expects me to pay.”

How does this happen?

Do you just run into each other? If she expects something of you when you just run into each other… that is just not right!

It’s one thing if you offer… or invite her… but just strange for her to expect something of you when you are not really on a date….

How do you know she expects you to pay for her when you are not on a date? What has she done to let you know this?
Nicole 54

@Nathan,
The glass ceiling might exist, but for most middle class people, not so much. Or you have situations where women make less b/c they are choosing the lower paying options (so primary care vs. surgery). I just feel that throwing that out there without looking at the myriad of reasons why it is true is a bit irresponsible. It’s not as if girl lawyer and boy lawyer get hired by a firm and the firm makes sure tha the women is getting 24% less. It takes a lot to get to that point.

I feel as though the stats about women’s earnings vs. men’s don’t necessarily take into account the fact that women negotiate less for salary and raises (so I recently went to a lecture that was talking about how much money “women leave on the table” during their careers), take time off (which is still a choice, and there is no way that you can get a salary bump for time that you were not working, I don’t care what you were doing), and while the gap is narrowing, for a long time women were just entering fields that don’t pay as much as men (so nurse vs. doctor, principal/administrator vs. teacher).

But back to this post, I don’t think any of this makes a good argument for why a woman wouldn’t try to shoulder the load as a gesture of good will. If you are turned off by the guy who lets you pay, dont’ go on date number two, but I’ve seen the spoiled, entitled women who think that a poor man should support them in high style even if it’s hard for him.

Until the OP chimes in, we won’t know if his fears are justified or not. But he does need to speak up b/c he won’t magically earn 2-3 times more if they get married, and his girlfriend should be a bit more thoughtful (even though he should speak up for himself too).

I admit, if I’m meeting someone for the first time and he wants to split the bill, I’ll assume I’m not going to hear from him again. I’ll offer, but if he immediately jumps there or if he accepts first time out, I probably have no interest in seeing him again. I do feel that in the zeal to avoid being taken advantage of or to minimize their financial investment in dating, some men do make the decision to pay or not pay depending on what they want. I think that there are also regional differences, b/c i’d agree with A-L and SS that in the south (where I am from but don’t live), you’d be hard pressed to find even a platonic meeting where a man didn’t reach for the check(and yes, some men consider letting people see a woman pay for his meal to be a huge source of shame-I had a male friend tell me as much. We’d go to dinner, as students, and he’d NEVER let me pay). Meanwhile, where I currently live, I’d say that chivalry, even in the form of holding open a door for a person who is carrying stuff, is dead, and probably never existed. There are definitely cultural and regional differences that create the differences.

And I’d totally be happy to buy drinks, tickets, cook meals, etc. as an alternate way of contributing equally, in addition to offering to split some meals too.

I can’t believe that people want to argue that they shouldn’t pay b/c of babysitters or whatever. I think that if you know that your date (male or female) is of limited means, be sensitive to it, because it’s a bit embarassing to say, “Hey, I’m poor, and $20 is a lot to me right now” but having been a grad student in recent times, that can be a lot of money and yet there is no good way to point out that you could be blowing your grocery or gas money on a date. (Thank goodness for graduation!!)

And after you are comfortably dating someone, like this letter writer is, there is no good reason why they can’t ease up on the spending, or why she wouldn’t offer to do something.

But then again, it’s not so bad that he will leave her. I’m sure there is a woman out there who would be more sensitive to his budget.

@NN, how do you figure that someone with a low income who needs to watch his budget is going to affect your spending? It sounds like he’s trying to be responsible. Wouldn’t you rather someone who is trying to live within his means rather than blow his money or worse yet, see your money as his future piggy bank (like I dont’ have to be sensible anymore b/c I bagged a rich one!!)
Honey 55

Wow, I don’t know what kind of dates other people go on, but Jake and I usually spend twice as much on drinks as we do on food. Since when is picking up the drinks the cheap part?
nathan 56

Nicole, you’re points are definitely taken. I agree that there are a lot of circumstances behind the pay differentials. Mostly, I just wanted to point out that some still do exist, given that Evan’s initial post suggests equality of pay.
Katarina, Angie’s comment at 51 about disliking excessive wooing is something I have found to be more common these days. Thankfully. Because when I see men really laying it on with a woman they are dating or interested in, it just looks like a variation on the high pressure salespeople at car dealerships or appliance stores. I’m all for things like making someone a meal, giving a tactful little gift, or a surprise phone call to show that you care.
But I think it’s really easy to go overboard, and that backfired like mad a couple of times when I was younger. And now, maybe experience and knowing more about what I want in relationship, makes me skeptical about dating someone who wants too much woo and romance.
I just hope David talks to her. Because going on like they are won’t bode well for the future.
Gem 57

I have a few questions:

Why does David assume his girlfriend will “blow up” if he brings this issue to her attention? That seems like a bigger issue than money, imo.

Why does he continue to plan expensive dates if this is bothering him?

Is it really the money that’s bothering him or a lack of appreciation? Does she show her appreciation, and respect for him verbally and behaviorally?

What is so difficult with saying, “Hon, I’m watching my budget so this week why don’t we do “x”? Maybe she’ll pipe in and offer up money, or maybe she’ll be happy to do “x” and he’ll realize she doesn’t require a constant wine and dine.

I think he’s choosing to go on expensive dates ($200 a weekend) and then resenting her for it. Why would she have any idea that there is a problem if he doesn’t speak up? As men always say, she doesn’t have ESP.
JerseyGirl 58

I competely agreed with Garnet’s comments!

I tend to think that a woman’s thoughts on who pays is probably aligned with the relationship she saw between her parents. If she grew up with parents that split finances, she is probably more comfortable with a man who wants to split finances. If she grew up in a dynamic that the father brought in the bacon, so to speak, she is probably looking to a man that will be able to provide the lifestyle her mother had. Because it’s only natural to be familiar with what you grew up with.

What I dislike is the argument that since women expect equality in the workplace, then it’s somehow “inequal” for a man to pay in relationship world. What in the world does equality in the workplace have to do with male and female dynamics in mating and dating? If that is the case, then I shouldn’t ever cook for a man again. Being that we are all “equal” and stuff now. Might as well take out ALL the fun and difference of our gender completely since women JUST recently are doing better in the work place. (By the way, women do still make less to the dollar then men do.)

In my own experiences, if I was going out with an older man, I had a much higher expectation that he should pay then if I was dating someone closer to my own age. But if a man my own age picked up the tab more then not, I was very impressed. Like another poster said, I offer to pay my share but it sure is nice when men treat you like a lady. And whether men like it or not, our culture partially defines treating women like ladies when the man picks up the tab. Further, I have always found it’s the man that are willing to share their resources, so to speak, that are much more giving in general and not stingy. Which bodes well for the future with him. Men that don’t want to share their resources with you probably aren’t all that interested in you or respectful in general. But if a man *wants* to pay, then he clearly thinks your worth the effort to share some of his hard earned cash.

Now in David’s case, I don’t think his request is unreasonable. He is just looking to not be taken for granted. But he needs to speak to his lady about this and see how she feels about it. If she is put off, then they just were not compatible. He doesn’t need to tell her how much he makes. In fact, instead of going out on inexpensive dates, David could get creative and instead take her out on a picnic or to a Museum on the day they have free admission.
Bren 59

The fact that David says he is 100% willing to pay for their dates….AND he’s been spending $200 per weekend on those dates…. says to me that he may have led her to believe he had it to spend…and was happy to do so… He did it for some reason…AND continues to do it for some reason….

Is this a lifestyle he wants to portray but can’t afford? Maybe it’s not a lifestyle she can afford either….but he has been happily wining and dining her… so she is allowing him to…

We do not know about her…. Maybe she eats peanut butter sandwiches so she can pay school loans… And having a great guy make over her… and invite her to do such fun things is wonderful… And of course he’s been 100% willing to….

That’s blowing almost $5,000 a year on going out! Why would he spend that kind of money on dating anyway when he only makes $40,000?

Why is he continuing to ask her to do such costly things? Why is he continuing to spend that kind of money? Why are they not entertaining each other at home and spending less?

Is this lifestyle they are living beyond either of them?

We have no clue what their lives are really like…
Goldie 60

Whoo boy. It is so much easier to be a single parent dating other single parents. It is pretty much implied that cash is tight all around, so no one expects a five-star treatment, and, like several people mentioned on this thread, people get pretty creative about organizing fun dates on the cheap. I like it! Seriously, if it takes $200/date for David and his GF to have a good time, then I’d have to wonder if they have as many “commonalities” as he says they do.

I agree with Katarina, (in fact I agree with every one of Katarina’s comments on this thread), splitting everything 50/50 was something I did when I was married. Came in very handy during our divorce, but, other than that, very unromantic. I think there definitely needs to be some give and take, but it doesn’t have to involve taking out the calculator and dividing everything in half.
Lynn 61

I am totally confused as to what the right answer is on this one.

I*used* to think that the woman needs to pay half of the bill, or pay for half the dates. We are true equals, right?

But the past few years, I have read so much about the woman being the “receiver” in successful love relationships, letting the man lead the relationship, letting the man ask *you* out as oppose to asking him out, letting the man be the first one to say “I love you,” etc. I have been trying so hard to “cultivate my feminine essence” and focusing on playing a feminine role by letting the man claim his masculine leadership role. And so this issue now has me in a complete quandary as to why a woman would not let a man lead in this instance, i.e. paying for dinner.

If the man has asked the woman out, I think he should plan on paying on whatever the date entails as the orchestrator of the date. That said, the woman can always offer, but I honestly don’t get the warm fuzzies when a guy lets you pays half on the first few dates. In letting the man lead, maybe a woman can offer to host her man for dinner at her home one evening after 4 or 5 dates out. Then maybe if he asks he to go to the movies and dinner, she can say, “sure I would love to; would you like me to reserve our tickets?”

All that said, when i”used to” ask men out on dates (years ago now; I would not dream of doing that now), I would be completely prepared to pay the whole bill, knowing that I was the one who initiated the date. Then I was always grateful when he offered to pay half, or even the whole check.

So I am still completely confused.
Katarina Phang 62

I have had 9 dates with this one guy in 3 weeks and out of all those dates we only went to a restaurant 3 times (and each was never more than $40 I suspect). Most of the time we went hiking (twice), doggie play date (once), watching movies/TV, me helping him cleaning the apartment for his new roomie, me cooking, BBQ with his friends on memorial day (he picked up some wines), etc. Each time we had a great time doing things together.

I agree with Goldie, it takes two tango. He has the control of what to do and how much to spend because he’s the one who asks her out so i don’t get why he has to spend $200 each time when he can’t afford it? Doesn’t he have a backbone to just decide: we’re staying in and eat pizza this time. C’mon he’s the man. Lead. She perhaps just wants to take the passive role.

My date came up with ideas what to do each time. He takes charge (he knows I like it): he asks me out and is decisive about what we’re going to do. He never asked, “what do you want to do?” Of course I can come up with ideas, but his ideas are always good to me so I don’t have to think about that. If he doesn’t want to spend any money, I’m fine with that (a few times I would have liked having lunch after the hike, for instance but he didn’t ask and instead just dropped me home.) He’s in charge and he’s not apologetic about it. That’s very masculine to me.

I really like that. It makes me feel womanly. That way i don’t have to worry about paying for dates because I know he won’t force himself doing things he can’t afford. He’s wise. And I understand that money is tight all over. I don’t hold this against him at all.

Men paying for dates, say, 90% of the time can be done without breaking the bank (and you give back your own feminine ways that don’t kill the romance or emasculate him). You don’t have to go eat out each time. Just do it within your budget. If a woman wants a feminine role, do as my date and I are doing it. Dating is about getting to know each other and there are many avenues on how to do it most effectively.
Node³ 63

I see women expecting to pick up the whole bill on a first date as a precursor to a negative dating philosophy that I encounter frighteningly often. I call it “non-participation,” for lack of a better term. Women who expect me to pay for everything often expect me to plan all dates and initiate all communications.

The non-participating woman won’t act on her own; she only reacts to the man. It’s a total turn-off and I declined to continue dating one woman who wouldn’t act independently despite some prodding from me.

Oh, and just to be clear, I believe non-participating men deserve condemnation as well. I don’t date men, so I don’t know how common the problem is on that side.
TheSimplifier 64

@Lisa 25 If I offer to pay or split the check … I’m being too masculine and … if I don’t pay then I’m using them as an ATM.

There are the women who not only offer but insist on paying their own way and become angry if you insist yourself. Heck, I appreciate the gesture, but it is OK to accept a gift, especially if I make more than she does. I always try to pay the whole check (unless the arrangement was clear that I would be paid for) but I have been smacked down when I push hard to do it over their offers. After I decline their offer twice, if she still insists the third time I let her, rather than get into an argument over something so silly. (One woman who was like this bought me simple but thoughtful gifts from time to time. That was how I knew she was into me, which leads to. . . )

@NN 28 & 35 if I insist to pay when I am on a first date with man, that is a way to say that “.. I don’t want to be beholden to you in any way at all”. That is the last date we are having. …Men miss that signal totally =D.

You are annoyed when men don’t figure out your homemade semaphore code? Use words and life will be easier for you and them. How about “I have this quirk such that when I take any sort of gift from anyone I feel I owe them. Since I don’t see us having a second date, I will pay half.” Men will understand that signal. They won’t waste their time and yours calling you back and everyone wins. You might want to examine your belief that if you accept a gift from someone you “owe” them. That isn’t what “gift” means. (That belief comes from the same place as feeling badly if you tell someone directly you are not into them.)

@Kat 43 It’s not about the money. It’s about what works instinctively on the most primal level. We haven’t evolved that much since the days of our ancestors.
That is your opinion for yourself. Don’t put it on others. If I had not evolved since my early ancestors, I would uncontrollably jump any women in estrus that I scented. Instinct might whisper in my ear, but it does not tell me what to do.

@JerseyGirl If that is the case, then I shouldn’t ever cook for a man again.

You are right, you shouldn’t if he never cooks for you or reciprocates in some other caring way that he is skilled at.

@Lynn 58 I am totally confused …I*used* to think that the woman needs to pay half of the bill, or pay for half the dates. We are true equals, right?… the past few years, I have read so much about the woman being the “receiver” in successful love relationships, …. I have been trying so hard to “cultivate my feminine essence” and focusing on playing a feminine role by letting the man claim his masculine leadership role.

If it doesn’t come naturally and it isn’t who you are, don’t force it. Like many posters said, each person is unique and each dynamic is unique. There is not a set formula that always works. Forcing yourself to “play” something you are not is a poor foundation for a relationship. Even Evan says his rules are only what is most effective but isn’t the only way. Drop pretensions and be yourself. You won’t be happy with a man that loves who you play on TV, rather than who you are in real life.
Cecilia 65

Hi Evan – I have yet to date a single dad with kids of babysitting age so the issue hasn’t come up – and no – I wouldn’t offer to :) And btw I did date someone who genuinely did want to cover the cost of my babysitter!
Francesca 66

I think when I first started dating I did rely on the guy to pay. This was mainly because they were working and I was still studying full time. That said if I had it again I would have paid my way.

With my current boyfriend I do try to pay half/half but he doesn’t like it very much. He’s very happy to let me cook for him though. Often he comes over and helps out.

While I am attracted to stronger guys. I don’t really consider it “manly” to earn more money. I am most likely to earn a large amount of money, but as long as I feel protected, sheltered and feel feminine, He will always be the man.

case in point: michelle obama earnt more then Barack for a number of years.
Tina 67

I am glad this was brought up. I have lived in a couple of different “macho” cultures where in one relationship I was actually scolded by my (then) boyfriend for offering to pay, because I apparently reduced his masculinity. Another time in the same country, a male friend wouldn’t let me pay my own entrance fee to an event, at least not in front of everyone. He paid and then let me slip him my cash in secret. Again, another situation where the man didn’t want to feel less “man”.

So now I live in Italy, which is a lot more forward than where I’ve been in the past, and I am dating a wonderful guy, and just haven’t really thought much of picking up the tab or anything, mainly due to being accustomed to making sure I don’t offend the guy, thanks to past experiences.

Well, my wonderful guy actually sat down with me last month, and brought it up. He said that since we were getting serious, he hoped that we could start to share costs, or would I mind picking up the tab every now and then. He said he sees me as a long-term partner, otherwise he wouldn’t have brought it up. He wants a partner who contributes to the relationship.

I think it was lovely that he brought it up and I feel great that I can be considered an equal partner. He still insists on treating a lot of the time, even if I offer and insist myself, but I think he does so with a lighter heart and because he really wants to.

So I say, if you think you’re getting serious with someone, there is nothing wrong with bringing up the subject. I, the woman, was not offended at all and was really glad that we could start talking about our philosophies on money and relationships, and he felt better for having said something.
Goldie 68

@ #62 Katarina, doggie play dates are the best! Cost nothing, good fun is had by all (including the dogs), and, in our area, there’s even a coffee shop that allows dogs on Sundays, so people can go there for a doggy date if weather’s bad. I have to confess, when I see it on a guy’s profile that he has a dog or dogs, I feel relieved, knowing that, if any of our date plans fall through, there will always be a plan B.

@ #64: it seems that different people have wildly different ideas about who pays and why. And, you’re right, everyone thinks his or her ideas are implicitly shared by all, so no one bothers to verbalize them. I had a male friend tell me once that, if a woman offers to help him with the check, that he won’t call her back or date her again after that. To him, she’s saying, “this is not a date. You’re in the friend zone, and I’m paying my share as a way of showing it.” I found that pretty weird… Personally, first date, I like to meet someplace inexpensive, ask the guy if he needs help with the check, (he usually says no), and like you said, accept it as his gift if he doesn’t. I may buy him a drink afterwards. Further down the road, it depends upon his financial situation. I’ve dated people that had been out of work for a good part of the year… I dated a single father of three. In that case, I’d just grab the check or bring my food to his house, or bring the food and drink from both of us to a potluck party etc. Whereas if the guy is doing well for himself, I’d ask first if he needs help. He may be offended if I just start throwing cash on the table without warning. The way I see it, it’s a courting game, might as well play along and make sure both of us have a good time.
Katarina Phang 69

The Simplifier #64, nope it’s not just for me. It is true for MOST women who want masculine guys: we want to feel cherished and taken cared of. We don’t need to be taken cared of but it feels so wonderful knowing a guy so interested in us that they want to protect/take care of us.

It’s a total turn on for a woman to have a guy who says it with his actions: you’re worth it.
SS 70

There’s another wrinkle in this “who pays” debate that I haven’t seen mentioned yet… I might have missed it though, so apologies if I did.

But… I know some women, usually younger (20s) who offer to pay their half because they’ve been led to believe that a man will “expect” something of her if he pays for her meal. Like sex.

So out of a need to feel safe and secure, she’ll pay so that he then won’t feel “entitled” to try to get in her pants later.

While I understand that might be an issue that is a legitimate concern for women based on past experiences, I tell them that should NOT be a reason for them to pay on a date, and if they’re that concerned that a particular man is going to expect sex because he paid for some chicken fingers and a margarita, then she’s going out with the wrong type of men.

But this fear is apparently more common than i realized… which means it’s coming from somewhere.
Leslie 71

This topic has always bothered me. I’m a woman. When I say I want to be treated equally, I mean I want to be treated with equal respect, not “treated like a man.” I’m not going kill half the spiders, I’m not going to change half the tires, and I’m not going to pay for half the dates. If he wants me to pay or to offer, it turns me off completely. Not because I’m cheap or want to take advantage of him, but because it makes me feel devalued…like I’m just another person-a guy, a platonic friend, a random acquaintance-not a woman he desires and wants to take care of. And yes, I want to be taken care of. Not because I’m weak and can’t take care of myself but because, again, I feel desired when a man takes care of me. If he’s counting his money, it shows me he doesn’t think I’m worth everything he’s got, that nothing is too much to give up for me, and that’s how a woman wants to feel. It’s not about money, it’s about the dynamic between a man and woman. And “classic” does not mean “outdated.”
Sheyna 72

I always offer to pay half, I’m prepared to pay half. While I wouldn’t mind paying half, it would be a boner-killer for a guy to take me up on my offer on the first few dates.

Honestly I can’t really afford to pick up the whole tab for dinner at most of the places I end up going on dates. I order appropriately for what I can afford however.

“oh great, the salad looks delicious.”

In the situation detailed in the letter, I would be mortified to find out that the guy I had been dating was secretly resenting paying for stuff.

Really it sounds like a delicate conversation where you want to speak up but not be critical at the same time. Possibly…

I like to pay for everything because it makes me feel good to take care of you. but sometimes I feel unappreciated, not because I want you to pay for things but because I like to feel taken care of too…
nathan 73

I hope the women on this thread can sense how damned confusing all of this has gotten for men. The terms of social equality are quite muddy here, and I can’t help but think that some women just want to maintain the benefits that came with relationship models built under patriarchal society, while chucking off all the oppressive crap. I think it’s ridiculous to think that the kinds of changes that are happening in the legal structure, workplace, and society in general aren’t also – or shouldn’t also – enter into our most intimate relationships.
I’m not arguing that men and women should behave exactly the same. I’m arguing for more freedom to enter in and out of any of the various roles that come with a relationship. This includes men being the traditional lead, and women being more of a follower in a relationship – but is not exclusively that. This includes men taking care of children, or cooking and cleaning, if that works. It includes women being the lead, if that works.
I just find it so interesting how many women here seem to link level of care and interest with the frequency of times a man is willing to foot the bill. With all the other signs and signals a man could be giving within a relationship, somehow it seems to continually come back to spending habits of the man. Hmmm…
Perhaps this is what comes from living in a capitalist culture where money and stuff trumps most everything else. When I think of my grandparents – on either side of the family – growing up in the depression and dating during the war years – how they expressed love and commitment to each other was rarely centered around money and objects. Even though they played more “traditional” roles than I would, one thing I learned from both my grandmothers is that it’s the little gestures, the willingness to help out when there are problems, the willingness to listen,the supporting the partner’s family during challenging times, and a general sharing of material resources that demonstrates love and commitment.
Generosity is a hell of a lot more than just about money. As is relationship longevity. It might be sexy to have a man running the show, buying you things, and giving you a good time – but in the end, none of that, in and of itself, makes a successful relationship.
And I’d bet that any of the women who are speaking about guys who do this kind of stuff, and also have been “good partners,” would look back and recognize that these men are offering a lot of more intangible appreciations as well.
Xable 74

I love it when guys say they don’t have any problem paying for dates when they obviously do. Stop being dishonest. =)

Where is it written that being equal has to be being the same? It was my mother and grandmother who fought for equality and to be treated “just the same” as a man. But, news flash, I’m not a man. I’m a woman and I am NOT the same as a man no matter how hard I or society tries to make it so. I want to be in an equal partnership but I don’t want to be treated the same as a man.

And, if we were being perfectly honest, I think the majority of man out there are glad that their women are NOT the same as them. They don’t want to date a man, they want to date a woman.

First and foremost, who says you have to pay $200 dollars a week in dates? There are a million and one things and activities I can think of that I would be perfectly happy to do as a date that don’t cost a dime.

Second, if you want her to start footing some of the bills, you have to take the plunge and tell her. Just like men are not mind readers, either are females. We don’t have a magic crystal ball that tells us when something is bothering you – you have to tell us. You might be surprised, she might not have even registered this issue but if you brought it up, be glad to start paying her share. Don’t blow a potentially great relationship due to lack of communication.

Third, I wonder how well you two are really jiving. As has been stated, if you really liked her, I doubt you would even register the fact that you are paying for everything. Just, as I think, if a woman really liked you, she would want to do things for you in return to show her appreciation.

I am all for being equal in a relationship but not the same in a relationship. I often do other things, other than paying for a date, to show my interest in a guy. I might plan a pinic lunch date for the two of us. I might fix his favorite meal and invite him over for a romantic dinner. I might bake him his favorite cookies. I might gift him with a little something that reminded me of him. I might buy tickets for us to some event I know he would like. And yes, I might even pitch in and buy some of the items during our dates – maybe I’ll buy the ice cream or coffee after the movies or something.

My point is, if your current dating partner is not contributing in anyway to a relationship, then leave. But, stop and think if perhaps she is providing things towards the relationship that you are not that are not necessarily the same as picking up the bill.

And for the record, I always say thank you to every person who ever treats me or does something nice for me. That doesn’t have to do with dating, that has to do with being polite. If a you are dating someone who doesn’t say thank you after you do something nice for them, you should move along. I’m surprised ANY man would ask a women on a second date if she didn’t say thank you after the first one.
Katarina Phang 75

To the guys who think we want the cake and eat it (equality when it suits us), please read this from a commenter of an article I found online. It sums it up why we want “the best of both worlds”:

Quote:

I think the problem is the western thinking not about men and women in the society.

Do both men and women want to survive: yes
Do they need food/shelter/material world: yes
Do they need every thing (respect, love, family):yes
Do both want peace, security and safe society: yes

Now what women fought for is the above things not for TO MAKE LOVE LIKE A MAN!

an intellectual man (and I mean this seriously) will know yes EVERY WOMAN WANTS WHAT HE WANTS BUT SHE ALSO WANTS A MAN TO MAKE LOVE TO HER AND WOO HER why?

Because she gives birth, she takes in and he gives out (biologically and physically) she has more hormonal change than him…
she has deadline to have babies (naturally) and feels vulnerable and this puts her biologically that she should be treated with sensitivity….

Now if a man cannot understand that and he is comparing a woman’s need to be equal to have a safe environment and same salary to her other biological difference – then he should be dating other men because he is looking for someone just like him.

end of story.

Equality of sexes HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RELATIONSHIPS per se but more about human surviving.

If men take back everything accomplished in the equality area so they are not confused about dating (such a minuscule thing) in the scheme of things – then the society will not survive if only one sex is allowed to survive eating a good food because he can afford.

men and women ARE NOT EQUAL IN EVERY WAY but must survive exactly the same way.

so making love, dating, and relating in romance will not change as far as women also have more hormonal differences and deadline for making babies – they will always be more vulnerable to the attention of men.

end of story.

End of Quote
Ruby 76

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that in my experience, there have been a handful of men who have been interested in me, but wanted to split everything 50-50. They have all turned out to be very cheap. I wouldn’t even say they were necessarily poor, because I’ve dated some generous but low-income men, who managed to show their generosity and interest in ways that didn’t involve spending a lot of money. For example, I’ve always loved it when a men invites me to his home to cook dinner for me, more than any pricey restaurant meal.
SS 77

@Nathan 73
I can’t help but think that some women just want to maintain the benefits that came with relationship models built under patriarchal society, while chucking off all the oppressive crap. I think it’s ridiculous to think that the kinds of changes that are happening in the legal structure, workplace, and society in general aren’t also – or shouldn’t also – enter into our most intimate relationships.

But why does this seem to anger you so? Why is it so “ridiculous” to you? You don’t have to get involved with any of the women who express this sentiment, so why does it concern you that a large number of women simply do not believe that that legal changes in the public sphere have to affect every aspect of their private interactions with men, as you would like them to?

Just don’t date those women!
A-L 78

I agree with Nathan‘s #73. Generosity and thoughtfulness extends well beyond what can be purchased with money. One of the things that made me fall in love with my husband is that he always called me before I got to work to wish me a great day, and after I got off to see how my day had gone (even if we were meeting up later that evening). Or how he would always pull the blanket over me if he saw that a shoulder had gotten uncovered. Or walking along with my grandmother to make sure she wouldn’t trip. Or coming over to clean my house when guests were expected and I’d been too busy to do everything. Or any number of other things, in addition to the basics of being a good relationship partner. (Calling when you say you will, making plans to see each other again, listening attentively and remembering what was discussed…)

Financing 100% of all dates is not necessary for a date to feel admired, cherished, and feminine. If my husband had treated me the same way he did (and still does) but needed me to pay for half, it wouldn’t have changed my feelings. But if I’d had to pay for 100% of everything (and he didn’t contribute anything via home-cooked meals, etc) then I might have wondered if his feelings were truly sincere, or just a way to have his entertainment paid for. So I totally understand how David and other guys might feel about the expectation to pay for all of the relationship’s expenses. Everybody needs to be flexible and willing to communicate and compromise, particularly since there are so many different expectations out there (as this thread clearly evidences). And that includes women’s willingness to give more financially without thinking less of the man or his intentions.
Teresa 79

So Katharine how does your scenario apply to those of us who are no longer of reproductive age or have those “hormonal changes’? LOL
SS 80

A-L,

I agree with your examples and that part of Nathan @73′s comment as well.

I don’t think anyone here has ever said that money is the best way to show generosity… or even that it should be used to evaluate how generous a man is. A man with a lot of money can throw it all around and appear generous, but be cruel and unkind when it comes down to the important stuff.

At the same time, I don’t see the point of fighting the paying on early dates idea to make some bigger point about principles and equality and all that. One can pay for a reasonable first or second date and show further generosity through actions that don’t cost a cent.

I guess if there’s one thing everyone agrees on in this post, it’s the fact that $200 a weekend for dates is absolutely ridiculous!!!! Even in New York, how does that happen???
A-L 81

I realize that my last post might seem a bit contradictory with my first. Just to clarify:

-Looking back at my dating history, guys who covered most of the dating “out” experiences were better relationship partners.
-Because they tended to be better relationship partners, I stated a preference for guys paying for the dates out.
-But if I found a guy who treated me well who needed me to pay half, I would have done so willingly.

On a related note:

-Gratitude for an experience (dinner being paid or cooked, doing the dishes, whatever) should always be acknowledged
-Each partner should contribute financially to a relationship (women traditionally do this with cooking meals, special event tickets, etc.), even if it’s not a 50-50 split. You want to know that the other person is genuinely interested in you.
-Thoughtfulness and wooing goes beyond things that money can buy

Hope that clears any confusing points up.
Katarina Phang 82

Teresa, again, it depends on what you want. If you want a guy who leads and being a woman turns you on, you must take a feminine role. The guys who find you not active enough will not try to win you over, obviously. If you are okay with 50/50 sharing, then go for it.

I’m clear that wooing a woman doesn’t have to cost a dime. Men’s generosity, I agree, isn’t always quantifiable with money value. I want affection, consideration, kindness, empathy and a lot of other things that make me feel good other than being treated to a fancy dinner.

As other women have stated it here, if a guy wants to treat me like his male buddy, I’m not interested. He might as well date his buddies then. I’m different. I bring different things to the table that his buddies don’t/can’t. And that’s my feminine power.

In a committed relationship everything, of course, can be negotiated but i set the tone early on what works for me personally. If he doesn’t agree with it, then there are other women who will suit him and his desire better. Plain and simple.
A-L 83

SS,

I agree that on the first couple of dates, the male’s paying is very preferable, and most effective. (Also, that $200/date is excessive, particularly on his salary.) What I think the OP and much of the thread is about, is what happens once you’re past the first few dates. Is the guy still expected to pay for everything throughout the entire relationship, or is a different solution possible?

I also agree with you that monetary giving does not necessarily equate to generosity. But I disagree that this thread hasn’t started taking a turn that way. Leslie (#71) wrote, “I’m not going to pay for half the dates. If he wants me to pay or to offer, it turns me off completely. Not because I’m cheap or want to take advantage of him, but because it makes me feel devalued…like I’m just another person-a guy, a platonic friend, a random acquaintance-not a woman he desires and wants to take care of. And yes, I want to be taken care of. Not because I’m weak and can’t take care of myself but because, again, I feel desired when a man takes care of me. If he’s counting his money, it shows me he doesn’t think I’m worth everything he’s got, that nothing is too much to give up for me, and that’s how a woman wants to feel. It’s not about money, it’s about the dynamic between a man and woman.”

I think Leslie stated this most succinctly, but I also got that vibe from other posters. That the women is deserving of everything the man has, and if any reluctance appears to continue spending $x amount, then he’s not the right man for her. If he even desires her to do a disingenuous grab for her purse, but is unwilling to actually let her pay, she still finds that too unattractive to continue dating. As someone else here said, it’s the sense of entitlement that is really off-putting.
Teresa 84

I agree with what A-L posted
esp the last line.

This thread has been an eye opener no wonder so many men think women are golddiggers.
nathan 85

A-L at #83 points exactly what I have been sensing from some of the women here. It’s not just about this post – this theme that the “best men” are ones who are financing most of the relationship, without any trace of resentment, is commonplace on posts here.
SS, I’m not angry at all. Irritated a bit, yes. Mostly because I actively support women questioning and calling out men on the shitty stuff they do, and trying to change oppressive elements of society in general – and yet find that when I, as a man, question a few things I don’t much like about relationships, I get push back and rationalizations. The same kind of push back and rationalizations men have used for generations to keep women “in their place.”
You don’t have to agree with me. I’m fully aware that my views aren’t terribly mainstream on a lot of this stuff. But I’m not the only man here, or out there, raising some of these issues. So, you can sit and tell me to just not “date those women,” but you know, it might be that there are a lot more guys out there wondering about this whole financial thing. Including some you, and others on here are dating. Even some of those powerhouse “alpha” dudes some of the women here seem so fond of.
By the way, despite what I have written in my various comments, I’m not one of those “always 50/50 types.” It makes much more sense to just trade off paying for things and experiences. Sitting around dividing the bill every time is, as others have said, really unromantic. And being in a relationship isn’t about keeping a tally card either.
SS 86

Nathan, here’s what I discovered when I was dating regarding this.

Men did what they wanted to do. As I mentioned, I dated a lot of men from the South (or with Southern-bred parents). They were also very modern thinkers in many ways and did not exhibit the chauvinism and backwards mindset that is part of our stereotypical view of Southerners.

And none of them EVER seemed frustrated. They paid because they were raised that way, and later, because they wanted to. If a woman became upset if he opened the car door for her or performed some other old-fashioned activity, he just shrugged and said, “I know I don’t have to do it, but I want to do it.”

They took the same attitude when it came to dating. They were aware that traditional norms had changed in some areas and that some people felt differently, but there was no confusion in THEIR minds as to what they should do. They were going to pay, and sometimes, that meant they would pay for everything. (Now I have no idea if this extended to an actual committed, pre-marital relationship, but at least before exclusivity, they wouldn’t think of letting a woman pay.)

My husband is not Southern, but he is from a small rural town. It feels like the South when I visit, so perhaps such values are more middle America/heartland/flyover country than big city.

Am I saying this is what all men should do? No. But I am saying that the only men who seem to express a sense of confusion about why women say this, but want that or what they should do in such situations regarding paying for early dates are the men who seem to be holding to a particular principle about what “should be.”

I’m very glad that you call men out on shitty behavior. Believe it or not, I don’t always take womens’ sides and assume all men are essentially shitty.

And while you don’t have to agree with me or the majority of women on this post or in real life, it DOES rub most of us the wrong way when a man continually expresses irritation about the whole paying on a date thing and brings up the “but we’re more equal now” comment as a reason for his confusion or irritation. It doesn’t give off the impression that a man could be very generous in spirit or have very progressive views about women and men in relationships.

It just gives off the impression that he’s so focused on making a point and pushing a principle that he can’t look at the bigger picture.

Just my opinion… it’s fine if you disagree.
Node³ 87

@SS #77
You don’t have to get involved with any of the women who express this sentiment, so why does it concern you that a large number of women simply do not believe that that legal changes in the public sphere have to affect every aspect of their private interactions with men, as you would like them to?

Just don’t date those women!

I can’t speak for nathan, but the reason it makes me angry is because there’s often no way of knowing a woman’s attitudes about paying for dates in advance. Many women in this thread see it as an obvious entitlement that need not be given voice. I’m pretty sure asking directly would be considered “feminine” by the traditional gender roles crowd, so that’s out too.
Where do this leave us? The reality is that a man will often never know if his attitudes about paying are correct for that specific woman. When he’s wrong, he’ll just get frozen out after the first date with no explanation. That means a lot of wasted dates with entitled princesses when all he really wants is a progressive woman.
“Just don’t date those women?” I wish I could!
J.A 88

In my relationship i actually built up resentment because it felt like i was always carrying the financial load. so important to share financial responsibilities.. another form of communication..
Selena 89

Agree with every word of Zann’s post #46.

The guy who pays without allowing a moment of uncomfortableness is the one who’s most interested in most cases. The guy who wants to split (for equality) usually turns out to be Mr. Casual that hopes to be “entertained” at your house with your food and beverages.

Paying is what separates the men from the boys – at every income level.

I also agree with Zann that the LW seems to be dating this chick for something other than her personality. Might take a look at that.
JerseyGirl 90

Node, I tend to think that first dates should never be big dinners. Go out for coffee, go out to a local winery (I find the winery a great place because sometimes they offer deals or free events just to get you to come for the wine), if you both have dogs, ask her if she wants to have dog play date, go play mini golf. There are so many fun things a man can do on a first date that doesn’t have to be an expensive dinner and that doesn’t cause the social ackwardness when the check comes. Especially on the first couple dates when you are getting to know someone. The activity can be cheap and the activity can keep out any ackward lulls in conversation or open up an interest you might both have. Seriously, wineries are great places for first dates! Unless your date is a lush. But then you only get to discover that sooner then later.
Katarina Phang 91

Node #87, if you truly want “progressive” women, then bring it up on first or second date. Those who are not turned off are truly “progressive” and suit you. Simple, no?
Josie 92

Interesting post, but as a girl n I offer to pay even on first date ( going out with a guy one to one)
If the guy takes it , I might interpret that he is not that into me and may put him into the friends category.

Some other dating coach/my engaged friends said, it is the guy’s honour to take girl out as he ask her out so he should pay. For if the girl offer it is more like an insult to him…any thoughts on that.
Christie Hartman 93

In my books, blogs, and everywhere else, I suggest that women allow a man to spring for a 1st date, then to offer to contribute after that. A guy will either allow her to chip in or not, depending on his financial situation and on his general attitude about such things. However, there are other dating experts who tell women, straight out, to let a man pay. They say that men want to (or should) take care of women, that men will value that which costs them more. That may be one reason women allow this to happen.

Having said all that, it’s a waste of time to spend hours in an intellectual debate about male-female equality and male vs. female roles, and it’s an even bigger waste of time to complain about how women “want it both ways.” The fact is, half the struggle here is that men like the OP don’t feel comfortable saying, “Hey, I don’t like this” to a woman. They’re afraid of coming off cheap or unchivalrous, so they say nothing. There are solutions here: pick inexpensive dates (cook at home), say something to the woman (“Look, I wish I could afford to pay for everything, but I can’t”), or move on to a woman who shares your attitudes about such things (Yes, there are many out there).
Still Looking 94

One man’s perspective -

I always pay for the first several dates. A man holds the door open for women and a man pays for dates, it’s that simple.

If a woman offers to pay half or to pay the tip, I’m impressed but nonetheless I’ll decline her kind offer. Her offer to pay or to “treat” the next time is a positive.

If a woman does not offer to pay but extends a thank-you, that is all I expect and this is also considered a positive trait.

If a woman orders the most expensive entree, multiple “top shelf” drinks, appetizers, and deserts, while at the same time proclaiming her love of “fine dining” and how she abhors chain restaurants….. well that is an instant red flag of a high maintenance woman that I will view as feeling that she is entitled to being wined/dined…. not my type of woman.

I guess it all comes down to compatibility with me. I can afford to spend 4x the price of flying coach to fly first class and I can afford to buy my children fancy cars yet I choose not to. I support my children well but not lavishly and I live simply myself. I was raised to be a gentleman and treat women well. I was also raised not to take advantage of the generosity of others. A woman that does not take advantage of my generosity is appreciated. A woman who reciprocates after the first several dates is also appreciated. A woman who takes and takes… well she is history. Been there. Done that. :-)
Angie 95

@Nathan

I thought about it, and maybe it’s a generational thing. Anyone who dropped $200 on our first five dates would terrify the hell out of me for one of two reasons: (a) I’d think he was desperate or (b) I’d think he was using $ to wield power over me. I’ve actually never had a guy ASK me to pay halfsies, but I do remember one time I was very angry at an ex-boyfriend (and this will sound stupid)…

I’ve always been generous, bought nice gifts, brought home dinners, etc. Paid my own way as well. TWICE, this same guy offended me.
Once – I had the end of a Starbucks giftcard that clearly had $3 or whatever was left written on it. He didn’t like Starbucks, but followed me into the place to get a latte. Then, he decided to order something and goes “You get it” and I go “My giftcard doesn’t have any more money on it, sorry” and he goes “Well pay cash” and I go “I don’t have cash, buy your own cookie, I’m not putting a $1 cookie on my card”. Then, he went around telling people I wouldn’t buy him a cookie. (FURIOUS).
Another time, I was in Banana Republic and he was there. He liked a dress. I hated it. He went and bought it as a “surprise”. I told him “Return it, I hate it”. Instead, “This is a $100 dress! You have to wear it”. Still have it. Never wore it. He no longer exists.
(This particular ex was also told “I’m not going to marry you, and I’m moving cities” and he told my parents he was going to move out, follow me, and propose… I just don’t have good associations with men in my generation w/ money/control issues, it goes much deeper with thinking they are entitled to sex, which pops up a lot as well but is a whole different issue. I also have several friends with similar stories – Another friend got engaged recently and her ex who would buy her anything she casually said “Oh that’s a pretty top, etc” to found out – they’ve been broken up 4 years – and started emailing all her friends asking what her deal was.)

@Katarina
“Men’s generosity, I agree, isn’t always quantifiable with money value. I want affection, consideration, kindness, empathy and a lot of other things that make me feel good other than being treated to a fancy dinner. “

Yes, but I’m fairly certain men want the same from women. Isn’t this what a loving relationship is? I don’t consider this “wooing”. I consider this love.

Also, in your earlier post where you said you went on a “date” where you cleaned his apt… (a) that’s not much of a date, and (b) that was YOU being generous! Not him!
Jadafisk 96

“I’m pretty sure asking directly would be considered “feminine” by the traditional gender roles crowd, so that’s out too.”

But if you don’t want to date within that crowd, why do you care what they think? Just ask. What’s up is guys don’t want to deal with the predictably high attrition rate that would result, especially among women who have a traditionally feminine presentation.

With every man I’ve dated, I’ve suggested paying my half. They’ve all said no.
Josie 97

one more thought, say if newly met a guy how does the girl know if he likes to hang out as friends or have interest in her?

So by letting him pay is a good sign, at least that is how I sees it…nevertheless I still offer to pay first time
C. 98

Ugg. A man who pays for everything expects complete control. I never trust those guys. Its always 50/50 with me unless its my birthday or its something he wants to do and I don’t (like attend a sports event).
Ruby 99

Nathan #73

A man can pick up the tab on the first couple of dates, and still be a househusband later on down the road.

“Even though they played more “traditional” roles than I would, one thing I learned from both my grandmothers is that it’s the little gestures, the willingness to help out when there are problems, the willingness to listen,the supporting the partner’s family during challenging times, and a general sharing of material resources that demonstrates love and commitment.”

In my experience, men who are 50-50 splitters from the get-go aren’t invested enough to want to provide any of these things.
Jennifer 100

I would think it would be natural for a woman to either split the bill, pay tip, or at least come up with something cheaper to do. I would start to think that maybe if a woman does not think about how much you are spending she could possibly be selfish.
Xable 101

@100
I think it is pretty rare for a woman to NOT be aware of how much a guy is spending on her. I think a lot of women, mistakenly apparently, assume that a man is a grown up and will not spend more money than he can afford.

It doesn’t make a woman selfish for accepting a $200 meal from a guy. I would consider it pretty ungracious to say, are you sure you can afford this? Instead of saying “Thank you!”

Most women I know just want to spend time and have fun with the guy they are out on a date with. I know very few would will say – “Well, he didn’t spend any money on me on this date so he is out.” Point being, make sure you date within your budget, be creative with free dates, and learn that money is not the only way (or even the best way) to show your affection.
Lisa M. 102

It seems that the men who are always complaining about having to pay on dates or having to provide for a woman are men who of low income (or grew up fatherless). I have never heard of well employed or wealthy men expressing resentment or confusion about paying on dates or having to provide for women. The men that like calling women gold-diggers are usually broke.

Please, usually men are the ones who initiate dates with women and if you asked me out then yes…you pay. Also, I’m sure most of the women here don’t need a man to buy them a meal. Gold-digging for a meal. LOL! Hell, if I want to can go to an upscale restaurant and buy my own meal. The point of dating is two people spending time together in an attempt to get to know each better and it’s usually the man who initiates, right? If women were the ones initiating most of the dates then yes we should pay, in my opinion. But it’s not, is it?

So, what should we do? If a man asks us out on a date and if we can’t pay all or half, then we shouldn’t accept the invitation?

My view is this: If you are not doing well financially (and this goes for David and the men commenting here) then maybe you shouldn’t be dating right now. Save yourselves the frustration.
Selena 103

David (LW),

Why are you dropping $200 every weekend on dates and non-dates? If you don’t have a problem paying for dates, as you claim, why not just arrange the type of dates you feel comfortable paying for and put a stop to the non-dates – whatever those are?

Is this woman really unappreciative of you treating her when you’re out? She doesn’t say “thank you”? Ever invite you to her home for food and drink? Is SHE the one who plans the expensive dates and non-dates every weekend? Why do you think her offering to buy you one drink, or an ice cream would make you feel better about her?

As someone who has always been appreciative when a man planned a date and paid for it, who has always expressed her thanks for the thoughtfulness and generosity, I would find it really weird if the guy wanted me to chip in a few dollars for a drink or an ice cream to show I wasn’t “taking advantage” of him. I wouldn’t “explode”, but I would find it petty. I would likely think it masked a deeper resentment of “having to treat” period. And I would be turned off.

If you feel this woman decidely has a sense of entitlement, then perhaps you should acknowledge she’s not the one for you. If you don’t feel that’s the case, then a couple bucks isn’t going to matter – simply start orchestrating the kind of dates you feel comfortable affording. If she isn’t happy with that, then she really isn’t the woman for you.
Gem 104

Nathan #73, “Generosity is a hell of a lot more than just about money. ”

You’re so right. And a man who pays for dates is ONE way to show his generosity and giving nature. A way I appreciate. But in no way does that mean I require high-dollar dates. A man does not have to go to the poor house dating me.

Other ways men have shown me their generosity: changing the oil in my car, fixing something in my home or moving furniture, taking me hunting, drivng by late at night even when he had an early morning just to hug me because I was sad and missing my recently deceased father, watching a chick-flick or attending an event he has no interest in….

I show my generosity in many ways too. One of which is offering to pay the tip or after dinner drinks but in no way can I say I PAY financially my 50%. Not even close. Does that mean I’m entitiled?

It’s all about attitude and a grateful, appreciative attitude, and being giving and generous to your partner.

My current guy wouldn’t take a penny from me. He’s just hard wired that way. But he HATED the fact that his last girlfriend used him and expected his fiancial backing without being grateful or giving in any other way.

With me, he never even thinks about money because of my personality. He knows I appreciate all he does and I GIVE in so many other ways. He doesn’t spend that much on our dates because we are both low-key people but he does pay for all of them because it’s his way and I find it a traditionally masculine trait that is sexy to me.

On the other hand, I dated a man who refused to take my money ever and his favorite saying was, “I pay the cost to be boss.” I think it’s obvious that just because he payed, he was not generous, giving or loving with his money or anything else. He payed to have control. So it’s the attitudes underneith I am more concerned with.

Being tit-for-tat with money is just not sexy to me.

Men should pay what they want to pay for dates, expensive or not, and look to the woman’s personaltiy, spirit, attitude, humbleness and appreciation. If she’s a good woman, she won’t care how much a date cost as long as she senses the man is giving in spirit. And men shouldn’t care if she offers her wallet or not as long as she is giving and generous in spirit and not selfish and greedy. Because if she is a giving person, she’ll make up for it tenfold in other ways in the relationship.

And a women shouldn’t think that because a man pays, he’s generous. It can be an example but there’s so much nore to it.
Evan Marc Katz 105

@Lisa – Seriously? Men who make $40,000 or less – basically HALF of all men – SHOULDN’T be dating?

I don’t even want to get your opinion on whether women who make $200K should complain about having to pay for men who make $50K. Clearly, that’s a man’s job…
nathan 106

Jerseygirl’s ideas #90 around first dates are exactly what I try to do, when possible. Exactly because of this issue. As Node wrote above, I often don’t know for sure what a woman’s views are on these issues, and I’m sure as hell not going to ask about paying for a first date before we even go on it. Some of the women here might say that’s my own problem, but seriously, would you respond positively to some guy you don’t know asking “Hey, how should we pay for our date?”
SS – regional/location differences are definitely playing a role here. I’m an urban guy almost completely – spent 4 years in a small town during undergrad, but otherwise have always lived in a fairly progressive city.
What some of the women here seem to forget is that it’s not just money here. It’s that men are expected to do the bulk of the asking out and the bulk of the date planning at the beginning. After a good 150, 200 dates in between relationships over the past several years, I can say it’s gotten a bit tiring.
I never questioned any of this stuff when I was in my 20s. I just went along, asking women out, paying for dates, and the rest. But at a certain point, I just hit a wall. (And I say this as a man who has had long term relationships – not as a guy who has perpetually struck out.) Few women hit this particular wall because they aren’t doing most of the asking and most of the paying in the beginning. Many of you don’t seem to understand the particular exhaustion that comes with having to keep arranging things and risk rejection over and over again.
I don’t know about the other guys, but that is where my questioning started to come in. And you all can call it complaining, but you know, women complain about men on here all the time, lol!
Part of the reason I come on here is to hear more from women about what they are struggling with. What your particular hitting the wall points are. It helps me understand more. Helps me be a better dater. And helps me support others.
Perhaps some of you could care less about the struggles of men, and would rather we suck it up, and always be tough. That’s fine.
But then, if you’re often finding yourself single despite your best efforts, maybe it’s worth considering more what the few guys on here are saying. None of us has a monopoly on the truth. Clearly, Still Looking has a different attitude about money than I do, for example.
But anyway, my basic point is that I, Evan, and some of the other male commenters here often sympathize with women expressing frustration, anger, confusion, and irritation with male behavior and expectations. And yet, it seems harder to come by women on here offering a bit of the same in response to male frustration, anger, and confusion over female behavior and expectations. (This especially seems true around money issues. There were plenty of women offering advice and some support to that 20-something guy a few threads back who had given up on dating.)
Angie #95 Your examples demonstrate that your ex had control issues. Anyone who tries to force their girlfriend to wear an item of clothing is screwed up in my book.
Josie – it seems to depend on the man as to whether offering to pay is an insult or not. You’re in no better position than I or the other guys are on that one. We’re all stuck with guessing it seems.
Katarina Phang 107

#95 Angie, yes of course you do those things to each other. It can also be wooing when a man shows keen attention on you, praises you, etc.

I was making a point that date or “spending time together” can be done in many different ways. Helping cleaning his apartment is indeed one of so many creative ways to give back to him without me having to pay for a date. Cooking is another. Bringing him his favorite friend chicken is yet another.

The same day I helped clean his apartment, we also had a dog play date with his neighbor’s dog. And he prepared hot dogs for lunch for both of us.

Bottom line is we can spend hours together and it doesn’t cost a thing and we still have a great time.

I won’t feel comfortable myself if I date a guy and he has to spend tons of money each time ($200 will freak me out).
Steve 108

David;
If you think it is too early to talk about money, why not suggest less expensive destinations for your dates ( museum, a hike, etc ) saying that you think it will fun and that your money is a little tight?

It might put the idea in her head.

If not, you have saved some money on a date and had the fun of doing something different.
Selena 109

Nathan #106,

Have you found that issues surrounding who pays for dating resolve themselves after the two of you get to know one another? If you find after a month the woman you are dating is “traditional” in the sense she expects you to pay for dates is it a problem? Or if you find after a few dates the woman feels more comfortable splitting, or taking turns, is it a problem?

It just seems to me that dating is about getting to know one another and as you get to know each other better there isn’t confusion over who pays. Why not go with the woman’s preference if you like her, break it off if her values don’t match yours?
Steve 110

@Christina #2

Amen! I’ve seen that in other situation just beyond paying for dates. I find it to be hypocritical and a turn off.
nathan 111

“Have you found that issues surrounding who pays for dating resolve themselves after the two of you get to know one another?” It’s been a mixed bag. I have had two long term relationships where money issues seemed to evolve to a comfortable place for both of us. I have also been in a few shorter term relationships where money never seemed to be a focal point. On the other hand, I have had a couple of short term relationships where money always seemed to be a trouble spot. And I have a few dates pile up the bill with drinks, not blinking at the potential cost. Other than that, it’s mostly been either aiming for coffee or walking in the park dates, or paying for dinner without any questions asked.
“If you find after a month the woman you are dating is “traditional” in the sense she expects you to pay for dates is it a problem?” The fact is, I have never been in a position to afford that kind of relationship. I work in non-profit jobs, because I love to be of service to others. That is what drives me. So, the few times I have dated a woman who wanted me to pay for everything all the time, it was always indicative of differing values, which led to a fairly quick ending.
To be honest, when I first read David’s letter, I thought “I can’t even imagine spending that much on a single date, let alone on a routine basis.” I mean, spending that kind of money has always been, out of necessity, reserved for vacations or special occasions within a long term relationship.
What I find curious in this whole discussion is how only a few commenters have spoken to the fact that maybe the men who aren’t spending a lot of money on dates might actually be trying to be good with their finances. It’s an asset to know how to take care of your money, and a lot of folks of both genders just don’t have those skills. And sometimes, what looks cheap on the surface, is actually being smart in the long term. I’m always balancing financial generosity with the long term financial picture. And what concerns me about David’s situation as much as anything is the fact that he can’t, financially, keep up what he’s doing on that salary.
Plenty of guys, rightly or wrongly, are spending more than they have because they think women expect it from them. Or because they think it’s the way to woo a woman. And given the mixture of comments on this post, and some others, it’s easy to see why such stories persist.
Daisy 112

Many comments here asked David why he would choose such expensive dates? Well, my guessing is first he’s young (fresh out of college), second he wanted to woo his date too early on. I’m sure as he grows older and date more, he’ll learn and be more calculated and realistic.
There are too many techniques and rules to follow, you will just need to learn from time and mistakes and keep reading Marc’s blog.
But I agree that if the girl wants the guy to pay every time after being in a serious relationship, she’s not that into him. Most women will be care enough to make sure that her potential future partner does not break the bank only trying to being with her or just to woo her.
Selena 113

#111 nathan,

I’m curious also why David would continue to drop $200 every week-end. Why he even did it the first weekend, let alone 4 more. I’m not convinced it’s all the woman’s fault though – I think there’s more going on here than was in that letter.
Nicole 114

@Selena #113, I think it’s highly possible that he’s a young guy who tried to hard to win over a girl that he probably thinks is really hot.

It seems like something a less mature guy would do. I just think that once people feel a bit more confident, they are less likely to put their finances in peril to impress a girl.

College guys and younger guys in grad school are frequently very generous on dates. They frequently ham it up big time to win over girls, and if it’s a girl that all of their friends think is hot, they will go overboard. I think that people who wind up in the dating pool for a decade or two perhaps bring it down a notch and even if they have the money, they wouldn’t establish this kind of pattern regarding dating and spending.

None of us know for sure but I think it’s also why he feels less confident about ramping down on the spending. But the tone of the letter just suggests a younger guy, much younger than a lot of the people (including myself) who are commenting it on it, which is why it is baffling us so much.

But it’s usually true that the best answer is the simplest answer. Occam’s razor and all of that. I think that everyone is overanalyzing this possibly very young guy and why he’s gotten himself into this jam.
Selena 115

#114

Makes sense to me.

Don’t see how paying for a drink or ice cream proves a girl “has your back”, but if you’re very young….
Christie Hartman 116

Nathan (111): “Plenty of guys, rightly or wrongly, are spending more than they have because they think women expect it from them. Or because they think it’s the way to woo a woman.”

I think you hit it right on the nose. This is the real issue here. Is the problem that women expect men to pay for everything and spend a lot, or is it also that men expect it of themselves? Deep down, a lot of men wish they could be that guy who doesn’t have to worry about money when dating, who can woo a woman with expensive dinners. But that isn’t realistic for most guys.

Set your boundaries, guys. It isn’t your job to be a sugar daddy. Aim for fun dates, rather than expensive ones. Save the expensive stuff for women you’re in love with. And the good thing about setting financial boundaries is that it, like Nathan said, shows financial responsibility. It also scares away gold-diggers and other women you don’t want anyway.
nathan 117

I think Nicole is pretty right on with her comments at 114. I have never spent like David is, but I certainly sounded more like him when I was younger. Experience, if you pay attention to it, tends to make you less likely to believe that splurging on date after date is a winning strategy over the long haul.
Evan Marc Katz 118

@Nicole and Selena: Take away the dollar value ($200) and pay attention to the question: does it seem fair that a man of modest means should stay with a woman who takes his generosity for granted?

The answer is no. And if she hasn’t started pitching in to make his life easier, it’s time for him to ditch her. This isn’t about his age. This is about an entitled woman and a man without the guts to walk away.

There are LOTS of men and women like this out there.
Nicole 119

@Evan, #118,
I only mentioned his age as a possible reason WHY he wasn’t comfortable telling her that the way things were wasn’t comfortable for him financially or emotionally.

Some people become more comfortable having these conversations as they get older. Some do not. Some guys go all out to impress girls who otherwise aren’t worth it save for the fact that they are hot and later on go for someone who is merely attractive but is really nice.

We don’t all change with age but some of us do, and part of that process is letting go of people who aren’t that nice to us just because we find them nice to look at.

I’m not suggesting that everyone makes better decisions just because of age, but there was a lot of speculation regarding WHY he felt the way he felt, and whether or not it was justified, and whether or not there was some part of the story that we were missing.

I wouldn’t suggest that his feelings aren’t valid or that he’s wrong for feeling that his girlfriend isn’t grateful.

I was just offering my opinion about why he wasn’t comfortable bringing it up, or why he spent so much on her in the first place when it sounds like a stretch on his salary.

I totally agree that whether it’s $20 or $200, she should be be reciprocating in some way towards him.
Selena 120

#118 If we take away the dollar value ($200), what we have is a guy who thinks a woman has his back if she buys him a drink or ice cream. What a minute, that’s what we have anyway since David stated in his letter he doesn’t mind paying for dates. (Yeah, but we’re not quite believin’ that David.)

Every time this topic is done on this blog there are always numerous women commenting how strongly they feel about paying their own way. And there are always men lamenting about how unfair it is for them to be expected to pay for everything all the time. Why aren’t these people finding each other?

Those of us who follow the “traditional” model – men ask, men plan, men pay, women appreciate – seem to struggle with far less ambiguity than those who feel that model is “archaic”. Shrug.
Darren Miller 121

Hey David. This is a difficult one and I guess, in my opinion, the answer depends on how long the two of you have been dating. I have traditional views and believe that a guy should pay for the first few dates. However, as things get more serious, everything should become equal in the relationship.
You definitely need to talk to your girlfriend. Communication is vital in successful relationships. If you do not say anything, this issue will build and build and may result in you walking away from the girl and the relationship. You don’t have anything to lose. If you talk to her about it, it is more than likely that she will step up and make contributions. If she refuses then she is the wrong girl for you. You don’t want to be with a golddigger.
Selena 122

@118
David said, “I have absolutely no problem taking her out on dates and footing the bill 100%” – before going on to say she never offers to pay when they are out with friends and he can’t afford to keep spending $200 every weekend.

I think this IS about the amount of money being spent – would he have written the letter if the amount were $20 a weekend? Would you have printed it?

He needs to quit spending like that first of all, then he will be able to determine if she is really into him as he said she was, or if she feels “entitled” as you seem to believe. Cut back the cash outlay and find out.
Margo 123

@nDarren #121, it depends on their respective salaries as to whether things to be equal or not. If one of them is making 200k a year, and the other one is making 30K, then, NO, dates should not be split 50/50. Use common sense people.
Annie 124

I will admit, I don’t really understand this whole, I feel cherished when he pays. I have never felt cherished when a man pays for everything, in fact quite the opposite.

If we share expenses, and then every now and then, he treats me THAT is when I feel a bit more special and cared for, otherwise it’s just the norm(him paying), and doesn’t feel even remotely special.

The whole expecting a man to pay thing, actually comes across to me, like the women don’t really desire men for who they are as individuals. I mean, saying that you get turned off sexually from a man who won’t pay, is like a man saying he’s turned off ME sexually, because I don’t dress like a hooker or act like a porn star. That would make me feel like a thing(not a person), that has to preform or he won’t desire me. This whole idea, is incredibly creepy to me.

Doesn’t any other woman feel that way? If he pays for everything, I feel uncomfortable. I don’t want to be a kept woman, I want an equal intimate relationship, where we are alway’s NOTICING the nice things we do for each other, rather than expecting it all the time. Meaning, maybe I WILL dress up like a hooker to surprise him(heheh), but if he can’t desire me just for me, then I would be miserable.

Dont’ some of you blokes feel that if the money dried up, she would no longer desire you or love you in this scenario? How could you ever feel safe and happy with such a woman?
Lisa M. 125

And notice how we (women) are all of a sudden equal to them, when the subject of who pays comes up.
TS 126

For Heaven’s sake, Questioner, just plan cheaper dates. If she wants more pricey stuff, you can raise the budget issue then and say you need to spread those out to occasional treats. Then if she wants to do something more expensive more often and she’s a nice person, she’ll work it out.

And quit whining: you come off a wimpy Mama’s boy who can’t figure things out, not a liberal progressive man or whatever’s your excuse for passive-aggressive misery-making.
Gem 127

Selena, #120

“Every time this topic is done on this blog there are always numerous women commenting how strongly they feel about paying their own way. And there are always men lamenting about how unfair it is for them to be expected to pay for everything all the time. Why aren’t these people finding each other?”

LOL!! Yes. This is what I want to know. Also, I have heard REPEATEDLY from the men I’ve dated in the last 5 years how aggressive women are. Women are calling, pursuing, asking out like crazy. Why aren’t these guys who are burnt out from being the “askers and planners” finding those gals as well????
Katarina Phang 128

I kinda experimented a bit today with initiating. I called my date (I don’t usually call men I’m dating but I feel somewhat different about him, we are really great friends) and asked wondering how he was since we hadn’t seen each other all week (he’s been in a lousy mood the past few days due to his divorce which is still not final and upcoming anniversary) and offered him if he wanted me to bring him his favorite fried chicken (he wasn’t sure he would be around). I was also informing that I was going to cook either today or tomorrow so he could pick up the food or I could drop it off.

We chat a bit about our situations with our exes and as soon as I hung up, he texted me that he got sold now on the chicken so he offered to meet somewhere for a walk and then get the chicken.

So we did. He walked his dog to meet me half way and we walked a few blocks to “Out of the Closet” where he bought a sweater. Then we walked to Popeye. He asked if I needed any money, i said no, the chicken would be my treat ’cause I offered it to him.

Then we walked back to his apartment and ate our chicken. Then I was helping him setting up a desk (he was confused about where two of the legs went and through our interaction he figured it out). We then watched a little bit of documentary on insects, then I watched him play videogame on netflix (he was explaining what and how).

We had a great time as always (6hrs today). He just walked me home with the dog.

The cost? $10.46. On me. It cost him ZERO.
Katarina Phang 129

Today was our 10th date and yesterday was a month since we met. We only ate out 3 times so far (he paid all those) but I have been giving back in my own ways (food, gift or service). We don’t seem to have an issue at all re. what to do on our dates. He just notices that I’m always happy each time I spend time with him no matter what we do.

It’s the connection, not the money spent. It’s about doing things together. Work on connecting and making each other feel good, respected and cherished.
Carol 130

For some strange reason men seem to like high maintenance women who don’t appreciate them. Same reason women like the hot guy with bucks that treat them badly..Chemistry. Hopefully he will wise up and find a gal who will treat him kindly and appreciate him and be flexible about his budget.
When a new date asks me where I would like to go for dinner I never suggest an expensive place or order the most expensive thing on the menu. If he picks the restaurant, he decided it was something he could afford. Usually I reciprocate by cooking for him later after the first few dates, or buy the theater tickets. I have never been asked to pay, am always appreciative of being taken out and if I want to go to some pricey special event that he may not be able to afford, I pay for that.
If you can’t even talk about money, what chance is there of a real relationship?
Selena 131

#127 Gem,

Yes, it’s curious isn’t it? This is why I suggest that people who don’t want to follow the traditional model of courtship seem to struggle more with ambiguity than those who do.

Or maybe they are not quite “walking their talk”: the guy who’s burnt out on asking/planning/paying finds a woman willing to do that too agressive; the woman who wants to pay her own way finds the guy who is happy to let her do that not masculine enough. ??
TS 132

One more thing: I would never pay for the simple reason that I expect a man to know how to manage his money and know what he can afford. If he wants to take me to free concerts in the park, I’ll be happy with that, because the important thing is that he shows me he cares enough to make time for me and that he’s a leader enough to make plans for us. But if he does dates with a $ cost, then he’d better know what he can pay.
Selena 133

I’d like the male perspective on women showing gratitude in non-monetary ways. What do you really think when she contributes to dating with homecooked meals, picnic lunches, restaurant coupons/groupons, and doing little things for you that don’t involve spending any money? Is a heartfelt, “Thank you, I had a wonderful time tonight” enough appreciation for a date you paid for?

I have the impression (possibly false?) that the male commenters on this blog don’t see the things listed above as much in the way of “contribution”. That what they really want to see is a woman who will part with her cash – in the form of paying for drinks, the tip, parking, dessert, hers or the whole meal sometimes - anything that involves “show me the money”.

What say you gentlemen?
SS 134

Selena @133, that’s a good question. I’m interested in hearing this as well.

The men I dated (and married) all seemed to be fine with me showing gratitude and appreciation for their organization and payment on the date. They also appreciated the way I chipped in… my husband LOVED the fact that on our third date, I slipped a $10 off coupon in the bill holder. Now, while I didn’t contribute any cash to the date, he just appreciated that I found some type of discount that helped him in the process. He said it was just a thoughtful gesture.

I also am big on Groupon/Living Social/Daily Deal and some of those secret shopping groups that allowed us to get cheap or free meals at restaurants. Every guy I dated LOVED when I did that, even though again, I was not actually surrendering any cash for the dates.

It wasn’t that I was opposed to putting in money for the dates, but the balance I found with the “traditional” man was that he really felt it was his role to pay for the dates, BUT if there was a way in which I could show appreciation and reciprocate without using cash, he liked those dates a lot more than the ones where I’d just pay for something (like the dessert or popcorn or parking).

I agree with your general sentiment too that for those who follow the traditional courtship model (with a few modern tweaks), this issue of “who pays” and “how can the woman contribute” doesn’t create nearly as many mental gymnastics as it does for those who desire to use a different model.
Jadafisk 135

“That what they really want to see is a woman who will part with her cash – in the form of paying for drinks, the tip, parking, dessert, hers or the whole meal sometimes – anything that involves “show me the money”.”

Well, in a thread where some women admit to *attraction* being dependent on if he shells out or not, who can blame them for wanting to feel that kind of chemistry themselves?

“Or maybe they are not quite “walking their talk”: the guy who’s burnt out on asking/planning/paying finds a woman willing to do that too agressive; the woman who wants to pay her own way finds the guy who is happy to let her do that not masculine enough. ??”

I think this is key. Even people with modern ideals find themselves conflicted based on the way they were raised, what their friends in particular and society in general will think about their choices, etc. People who live up (or down in some cases) to their gender role’s expectations are way more popular than people who don’t because of other characteristics that are correlated with that and the relative ease of a) finding them and b) running a relationship according to a well-established narrative. If a woman’s more comfortable with a man leading the direction of the relationship towards a traditional commitment (marriage), she may have to accept that he’ll want to date traditionally. If a man’s more comfortable with a woman who goes “the whole nine” with beauty rituals, he may have to accept that women who look more traditional are probably more likely to act that way.
Selena 136

Jada, re: your #135 specifically paragraph 4:

I think those are all, or can be contributing factors. Though, I also think on a subconcious level even the most “liberal” women understand the the man who wants to treat her is one who wishes to be her lover, whilst the “progressive” man who is delighted he only has to pay his own way is a fellow who feels less emotionally towards her.

And despite men saying they wish women would ask them out, and pay – they oft find themselves unattracted to the women who do. Subconciously perhaps understanding that this is “off” but unable to acknowledge why.
nathan 137

“I have the impression (possibly false?) that the male commenters on this blog don’t see the things listed above as much in the way of “contribution”. That what they really want to see is a woman who will part with her cash – in the form of paying for drinks, the tip, parking, dessert, hers or the whole meal sometimes - anything that involves “show me the money”.”
Well, I can’t speak to the other men, but I think I have demonstrated that I frequently do non-monetary things to express my interest and caring, and enjoy and am grateful when the person I’m dating does similar things. I’m actually not impressed by anyone who tosses money around, men or women, for whatever reason. The woman I am currently dating brought me a plant the other day, knowing I love to garden. Now, I’ll take that any day over someone paying for a fancy dinner or some expensive event that I may or may not enjoy, but which they hope will influence my level of interest.
“And despite men saying they wish women would ask them out, and pay – they oft find themselves unattracted to the women who do.” This doesn’t represent me, but I can imagine it does represent some men. I have never seriously associated my masculinity with money and finances, which many men are taught to do, and struggle to let go of when/if circumstances are calling for something else. I have been with women who made more money than me, and paid for a fair share of the dates and other expenses. And I have also been with women who made less than me, and for which I payed for more of the dates and other expenses.
I have to say that at 35, with an extensive dating history, I can count on my hands the number of times women have asked me out on a date. And I can count on one hand the number of times I have been aggressively pursued by a woman. It’s just not that common, and again, I live in a fairly progressive city.
Evan, I agreed with Nicole and Selena about the age comment in regards to David not because I think older folks are less likely to engage in taking advantage of another’s generosity, but because of how he writes. Phrases like “have my back,” as well as the general tenor of the letter, just sounds like it’s coming from a younger man. I and the others certainly could be wrong on that.
Goldie 138

@ Selena #133: “I’d like the male perspective on women showing gratitude in non-monetary ways. What do you really think when she contributes to dating with homecooked meals, picnic lunches, restaurant coupons/groupons, and doing little things for you that don’t involve spending any money?”

Um, since when is food free? Or groupons, for that matter? These are very much monetary ways of contributing.
A-L 139

RE: Selena‘s #120

For the people on Match (or other dating websites), how many people initiated e-mailing with you were you actually interested in going on a date with? Based on my inbox, I doubt it was more than 10%. So at least 9 out of 10 people expressed their desire to get to know you more, but the response was no thanks. Let’s correlate this to girls asking guys out. Yeah, a guy might be flattered that the girl asked/planned or paid, but the odds are overwhelmingly against the girl for him to actually be interested in her.

Several folks have already said that those seeking an alternative dating narrative are in the minority. How much in the minority, I don’t know. So odds are that any guy a woman asks out will be in the traditional camp. And depending on how much of a minority the alternative-daters are, will determine how hard it is for her to even ask out a guy who would be willing to consider going out with a woman who asked him out. And then, once she’s found one of these minorities, she’d have to be in the 10% of women that he’d consider going out on a date with. So, not so easy to find. And if the percentage of nontraditional women is the same as the nontraditional men, then guys would have this same difficulty finding a woman who didn’t expect him to pay for everything. Which might be why the two camps of nontraditionalists might be having difficulty finding the right partner.
Katarina Phang 140

Selena #136, that’s why I say rationalize/ignore/fight it as much as you like, our basic instinct primarily -and eventually- rules when deciding what works for us -men and women- in the mating ritual.
Selena 141

Nathan #137,

You wrote you have dated women who made less than you and for which you paid for more of the dates and other expenses. Am I to assume that these women did pay for some of the dates and other expenses? What if you started dating a woman who followed the traditional model and didn’t offer to pay any dating related expenses, but contributed in terms of conveying thanks and appreciation, recipocated with meals at home, bringing you lunch at work, a plant for your garden, things like that. But she never offered to split, pay for drinks or tips etc. Would you think the other things were enough? That’s what I’m getting at.
Selena 142

#138 Goldie, I know these things cost money, but I’m not sure men see it in the same light as throwing down a $10 or $20 for the tip.

#139 A_L, thanks for the statistics girlfriend. I also suspect there are many more people who operate on the traditional courtship model than those who embrace alternatives, but how to prove it?

#140 Katarina, I don’t like to overemphasize the function of biology in modern life, but I do think many women come to realize something along this line, “Lovers treat, FWB’s split” after awhile.
Diana 143

To the letter writer, I think you should be open and honest with your girlfriend. If she would truly explode over the issue, you might want to reconsider having her as a girlfriend.

You should let her know that while you haven’t minded and have enjoyed paying for your first few dates, your limited income is feeling the pinch, and that you’d love to explore new things with her that’s more within your budget: picnics in the park, free outdoor movies, sipping wine at sunset, happy hours, cooking dinner together (which I think can be super sexy sometimes), exhibits at local museums, etc., with an occasional nice dinner out.

When it comes to hanging with your mutual friends, ask her how she feels about going dutch or taking turns? If she gets offended or defensive in some way, then again, maybe she’s not the right girlfriend for you.

The only way to know where she’s coming from, whether that’s a sense of entitlement, or looking for only what a guy can spend on her, or innocently caught up in traditional thinking, is to have the courage to bring up the issue. But make sure not to backpedal. Your letter sounds a little bit like sliding backwards.

As for myself, the first two or three dates are all his. After that, I’d offer to pay for at least part of the date’s expense, i.e. he pays for dinner, I pay for movie tickets, etc. I think I’m too independent to have a guy pay for everything all the time. If he absolutely insisted, then I’d surprise him with something that was already paid for, and definitely do nice things to show my appreciation. What I find more appealing about a guy is his ability to be creative with dates rather than dropping a load of money.
Katarina Phang 144

Selena #141, because I know how giving I am (with various examples I have given), I never offered to split checks/or pay for tips or whatever when I’m out with a guy (used to be like that in the past). That’s his turn to shine. I just stay in my feminine energy and feel great being taken care of. And I thank him profusely after that (I always praise my date of how creative he is in planning for our dates and I think he feels really good -i.e. manly- about it).

I set the tone of the courtship early. I’m not worried that he might think I’m a gold digger ’cause any guy would know very soon that I’m not in the slightest.
nathan 145

Selena,
“What if you started dating a woman who followed the traditional model and didn’t offer to pay any dating related expenses, but contributed in terms of conveying thanks and appreciation, recipocated with meals at home, bringing you lunch at work, a plant for your garden, things like that. But she never offered to split, pay for drinks or tips etc. Would you think the other things were enough?” I don’t know. I’m not sure I could finance a relationship like that, just to be honest. My salary is more modest than even our heavy spending friend David’s is, so it would depend on how often we went out, or spent money on other things.
The thing is, if a woman being traditional about financing relationships represents being traditional in other ways, I doubt I’d be attracted. And honestly, she probably wouldn’t be attracted to me either.
If it’s just about money, then it would depend. I have already said I tend to pay for dinner dates and whatnot in the beginning, even if I desire a different model. But if it ends up being the case that I’m financing the whole relationship over the long run, that’s not something I think I’d want. Perhaps if I were earning a lot more money than her, I might think somewhat differently. But as it is now, that wouldn’t be the case. And the pressure David feels would be the same for me, even if I’m more careful with money than he is.
Also, to be honest, if I was with a woman who knew my income, and knew how even with being a careful money manager, that it isn’t easy to splurge on a lot of dinners out or concerts or whatnot – and she still insisted that I should be financing the whole relationship – I’d question her level of commitment as well. Women on here keep saying men who aren’t “treating” or paying for dates are just “Mr. Casual’s” – well, I wouldn’t feel any differently about a woman who expected me, with my barely lower-middle class salary, to spring for everything for months and years on end.
TS 146

@EvanMarcKatz Do we really know that she’s taking his generosity for granted? We’ve only got his word for it. And he sounds whiny. He could just as easily test her liking for him as a person by planning no-cost dates, just as she could test his liking for her as a person by not sleeping with him until he promises exclusivity. If she’s only after money, she’ll back off and if she really likes him, the no-cost part won’t matter. Seriously, this guy needs to stop doing things that are too much for him – the dollar amount matters here because he’s mentioned it – and keep his cool. Then, he’s more likely to see things clearly and know whether this girl has his back as he puts it.

Also, since when is having someone’s back about money? He’s got a bit of the user about him too if he thinks like that.
Selena 147

#144 Kat,
I’ve always done what you do – always. In fact it wasn’t until a few years ago when I started reading internet forums it ever occured to me some men expected women to do things like “the fake reach”, splitting, taking turns, paying for tips, drinks, desserts, parking, popcorn and the like. I always thought if someone asked you out on a date it was with the understanding they would pay for the date – ALL of it. I as the woman, was greatly appreciative and contributed to the relationship in a myriad of other thoughtful ways.

I’ve had a few partnerships that lasted years with dating in between and I’ve never had an issue with anyone ever expecting me to throw some amount of cash on the table after the third date. Ever. And none of the men I dated were well off - not even close. Could it be I’ve just been lucky? I’m not sure if alternative models of dating are as prevelent as some would have us believe.
Joe 148

You can’t be taken advantage of without participating.
Selena 149

#146 TS,

I’ve thought the same things. It also occured to me that this $200 per weekend thing may be including ALOT of drinks at a bar with friends. If David’s girl never saw the bar bill it’s quite likely she doesn’t know how much he’s actually been spending.
nathan 150

TS – you’re right. David needs to step up and change his actions. I totally agree.
“Also, since when is having someone’s back about money? He’s got a bit of the user about him too if he thinks like that.” So, basically you’re say that a man who has covered all the dates and also, from his letter, non-official dates is somehow “a user” for wanting the same woman to pay for some small part on future dates?
But yet if we flip that around, it’s apparently just fine for some women here to expect a man to pay for any date, whether the first or the five hundredth, because “that’s his role.”
Something is totally screwed about that.
Gem 151

Selena, #131,

Exactly! The men I’ve dated all say the only time it bothers them to pay all the time is when they feel it’s not appreciated and they don’t feel respected, and valued for what they do/give. They want genuine appreciation, not money thrown on the table. Because while having a woman call, pursue, pay and chase may be a novelty at first, the men I’ve talked to say they don’t find aggressive women a turn on.

If anything, they say that because women can “do it all” and are go getters in business, they forget to leave that at work and be more feminine at home and on a date. They complain that women are busy proving how capable and strong and EQUAL they are that their sex appeal dies.

Granted, some men may want all this equality across the board and want a woman to open her own door, and pay her share of dates, and ask him out and make plans but MANY do not. Because sometimes those behaviors come with all kind of other less-feminine traits.

Heck, Evan has a blog posts on this very subject!

As for those men who still like the masculine/feminine polarity of traditional dating norms, there are women like me who are their counterparts and if we find each other then we don’t need any social-judges calling me “entitiled” or the men I date “controlling” because the times have changed!

To the OP: the girl is not the one with the problem; you have set the standard and now don’t like it. Change it or leave.
Gem 152

Nathan,

“But yet if we flip that around, it’s apparently just fine for some women here to expect a man to pay for any date, whether the first or the five hundredth, because “that’s his role.””

I don’t believe that any women here, (including me and I’m a traditional woman), EXPECTS a man to pay for everything, or anything for that matter, if he doesn’t want to.

I doubt any woman wants to change a non-traditional man into one.

I’ll bet we just want to find a man who is already our counterpart.

See, I dont think there is anything wrong with David wanting to find a girl who will pay if that’s what he wants. Maybe he’s with the wrong girl, but that doesn’t make the girl wrong either.

Is she selfish and entitled? We don’t know from his letter. We have no idea how grateful, thankful, giving, sweet and appreciative she’s been. So far he’s just complaining that he can’t afford the deal HE HAS SET UP and now somehow it’s her fault for not offering any money for the past 5 dates. Pointing the finger at her is screwed up. A more mature attitude would be for him to change things up and see if she is actually a match for him or not.
Selena 153

I don’t want to change a non-traditional man into one either – and that’s really not the point. The point is there are sooo many less expensive (and more fun, more romantic) ways to spend time together than sitting in a restaurant or bar expecting a woman to lay some money down to offset the cost of a date the guy asked her out on. Seriously!

Many have already been listed in this thread I’ll include as well as some others:

free festivals, free concerts, free outdoor movies, $1 indoor movies, drive-ins, free pass day at museums, free gallery openings, discount day at the zoo, visiting the scenic spots in your town your haven’t been to in years

borrowing a canoe to go down the river, renting a paddle boat at the lake, lying on the beach, swimming, hiking at a state park, drives in the county, impromtu picnics with a box of fried chicken, or sandwiches picked up from the supermarket

student productions at local colleges, shooting pool, playing darts in pubs, karaoke with friends, cookouts with friends, cards & conversation with friends, back yard ball games with friends

pizza, beer, & ballgame at home, Casablanca & a bottle of Inglenook at home, a soak together in the bathtub, a soak together in a hot tub, chicken on the grill, a meal cooked together, take out in front of the fire, or window, dipping fondue by candlelight, feeding each other chocolate-covered strawberries

lunch off a streetcart, happy hours with free/cheap appetizers, going out specifically for dessert only, holding hands watching the sun go down, holding hands watching the sun come up!

Best dates I’ve ever had? Sitting on my couch talking for hours and falling in love.

How about the rest of you?
Margo 154

@TS 126, agreed. This poster does sound very whinny.

@Gem 152, I’m in agreement with you as well. It seems some men on here want to crucify this woman. The man who asked the question needs to know how to handle his business and communicate. It seems like he’s scared of his girlfiend.
Jadafisk 155

#139
Exactly. Rejection is part and parcel of the initiator role, no matter who’s involved. Most of the problems that women who engage in stereotypically male dating behaviors face are the exact same problems that men (and many traditional women) face all of the time – endless ambiguity, being turned down, being played for a chump by people who don’t like you but aren’t bothered enough by your presence and interest in buying things for them/having regular sex with them to stop seeing you.
It’s just that women biologically have less time to sort these things out, and they’re looked down on for taking the initiator role and facing initiator problems. For instance, when a man gets a 10% rate of return on his overtures towards women, he’s doing pretty well, in light of all of the variables, and there are all kinds of things he can do to improve his odds in the future. If a woman gets the same ROR, it’s assumed that she must be hideous, there’s nothing she can do to improve her odds because it’s all based on her appearance, “it only gets worse”, and her very behavior is blatantly exposing her low market value and self esteem level. Women don’t want to go through the perfectly normal twinges of rejection *with* that dangling over their heads.

I don’t think progressive people hear the call of the wild in their heads and respond. I just think they’re often swept along by the strong tide of the mainstream culture. The “subconscious” contains the cartoons you saw at 5 (rife with unattractive female romantic aggressors), what your father told you when you at 14 (if a boy really likes you, he’ll _____), the the magazines you read at 16(“What men secretly crave” on page 40!), and the movie you saw last week (this is what true love is supposed to look like).

Actual human tradition for the vast majority of the existence of the species has been family members and/or clan leaders deciding who you’ll marry, then delivering you to your groom’s residence as a preteen virgin. Astonishingly few Americans profess to feeling a natural inclination to recreate our traditional mating rituals in any remotely recognizable form, and I don’t think it’s because it “isn’t PC.”
Node³ 156

I’d like the male perspective on women showing gratitude in non-monetary ways. What do you really think when she contributes to dating with homecooked meals, picnic lunches, restaurant coupons/groupons, and doing little things for you that don’t involve spending any money? Is a heartfelt, “Thank you, I had a wonderful time tonight” enough appreciation for a date you paid for?

Hell no, it isn’t enough, because even when a woman says she had a good time, it’s no guarantee that she isn’t a Punisher*.
In an exclusive relationship, those other contributions you mentioned may be fine, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. I’m much more concerned about equalizing “failure cost.” By failure cost I mean the resources spent on a date or series of dates that doesn’t work out. Women have expertly manipulated social norms so that men bear most of the burden of a failed pairing. Picnic lunches, coupons, and other non-monetary contributions don’t come into play until the pairing has proven successful, but a man’s financial “obligation” starts from day one. Since most pairings will fail, men waste $millions every week while women are largely protected from the financial consequences of failed dates. Nice little racket women have going on.
The way to fix this problem is that during the first couple of “evaluation dates,” the norm should be that each person pays his or her own way (NOT 50/50). Women always say a man should pay to “show how much he cares” blah blah blah, but during that early period, that makes no sense. I barely know most people I dated, For online dates, I had never met them at all. How could I have a strong feeling of caring for someone I just met? It’s actually kind of creepy when you think about it. What’s more, the fact that some women make a second date contingent on a man paying the whole bill robs the gesture of any caring value. Instead, it becomes just a tax that must be paid to continue seeing her Most men will reluctantly pay the dating tax because enough women impose it that it noticeably reduces a man’s dating options if he doesn’t play along.

* Punisher: A person who says he/she enjoyed the date and wants to go out again, but ignores all contact when the other person actually tries to set up the next date.
Theresa H 157

Really enjoying you addressing a male query for a change Evan!
I’m from England (now living in NYC) and this whole business of expecting men to pay on dates is very very american….I’ve been a little shocked by how mercenary some NY women are when they expect men to take them out for expensive fancy dinners/dates and pay for the whole night. A lot of my English guy friends here have said the same thing – they accept they its expected for them to pay, but have all commented that most american women seem to take it for granted and are not very appreciative. Just to play devils advocate…could it be that this woman is just uncomfortable talking about / dealing with money? assuming this guy wants to continue the relationship how best could he go about confronting her on this issue?
A-L 158

RE: Selena‘s #153

Good list of fun & inexpensive activities.
Evan Marc Katz 159

Remember, this blog is all about understanding the POV of normal, relationship-oriented men. Listen to Node3 who speaks for most men when he says, “Most men will reluctantly pay the dating tax because enough women impose it that it noticeably reduces a man’s dating options if he doesn’t play along.”

When a man makes a modest amount of money and has to go on a date a week with a stranger who a) 50% of the time makes more than he does and b) 50% of the time doesn’t want to see him again, you can understand why he may feel that the arrangement is perhaps an unfair one. Smart guys play along with this because it’s “effective”, but not because it feels good to blow wads of money on total strangers.

I’m still not saying that men shouldn’t pay (since paying is EFFECTIVE in making women feel “valued”). I AM saying that it’s anachronistic and unfair. More importantly, it’s highly useful for you to understand that this is how MANY men – especially men of modest means – feel. I do very well for myself and don’t feel much pain when I pick up every single check for my wife. When I was 30 and still finding my career path? Quite a different story.

Please have sympathy for men like the OP, please. THAT’s literally the ONLY reason I posted this. Those of you who found ways to twist it back to “men should pay, it’s the OP’s fault, etc,” kind of missed the point. If he’s done anything wrong, it’s a) not making his true feelings known, b) spending too much and c) staying with a woman who takes him for granted. He is not at all selfish for questioning the status quo.

Similarly, just imagine if YOU had to pay for ALL of your dates with the parade of losers, liars, players and selfish, negative, clueless men you meet on Match.com.

Yeah, that’s how it feels for us.

This blog is about understanding men. Are you starting to understand yet?
Greg 160

Here is what is going to happen and is already starting to happen.
A lot of men are mad. They are mad that they have to do all the work in wooing a girl and that they are blindly expected to jump through hoops and blindly expected to part with their cash for no other reason than he is a man.
Notice what is happening now. The rise of the Pickup Artist Culture.
“Hey instead of going on a date and blowing my cash on a girl for weeks and months and have her reject me because she thinks I’m not exciting, I can NEG her”
“Okay, Just fake some confidence, make it look like I’m socially dominate, throw in a neg, don’t act like a beta male, make up a bunch of interesting stories about myself, and BAM I can sleep with a girl.”
This is what is happening ladies.
Selena 161

Almost all the commenters DID have sympathy for the OP. And agreed that if he did anything wrong it was the a,b,c you listed – through from the letter it isn’t clear that woman David is dating is taking him for granted – possible, but not a given on the information provided. He certainly should be questioning the status quo if the status quo is dropping $200 every weekend. NO ONE suggested blowing wads of money on total strangers is either fair or “effective”. In fact most of the posters suggested much less expensive dates as the preferred status quo. What’s not to understand?
SS 162

Selena @161… exactly! I think the majority of the women here suggested cheaper/free dates should be the way that David should go. And that ultimately has to happen anyway for most people (except the uber wealthy, and even then…)… if you transition from dating into an exclusive relationship, you’re going to focus on the long-term, and saving money for future goals (marriage/family/vacations/etc.) is much more important than blowing tons of cash on booze-filled weekends! Plus all that expensive food is a bit hard on the stomach.

As for the men who are actively pursuing women on online sites… whatever happened to the coffee date? For two people to have coffee and a muffin/scone/brownie, it shouldn’t be more than $10… and that way, if the woman chooses not to see a man again, he hasn’t lost much financially in the process. Or the outdoor festival/buy food from a cart date? If a man is really taking a large number of women out, then he has to make sure he finds ways to keep his costs down, and if the woman has a problem with that kind of date, hey, it’s a good way to move on to the next one without forking over any cash.

But if men are quibbling about even that small amount of money, well…

I’ll add a cheap/free date idea to the list… university events. Even if you’re no longer a student, most universities have cheap/free events open to the entire community that are pretty fun. My husband and I went to a Midnight Madness basketball show at the local university — which was free — and shared a tub of popcorn and bought two waters. Total cost for a fun night out? $8.
Selena 163

#160 Greg,

And it’s because of the PUA culture that many women are embracing the traditional courtship model more than ever. The man who DOES ask/plan/pay for dates is such a contrast now to the PUA who doesn’t do that, who instead uses bravado to get laid and move on.

Can you see how a woman who has been down the PUA road would prefer the man who continues to ask her out and treat her without resentment? It’s a big contrast Greg.
Selena 164

#162 SS,

Good points all.

Don’t most people get tired of clubbing after awhile? Especially once they become a couple and start thinking in terms of “us” and how “we” want to spend our time and money?
Diana 165

To Node3 #156, a punisher (or in my opinion, a coward) is also someone who leaves the other party at the end of a date with the complete impression and understanding that they had a terrific time and they’d love to see them again, only for the party to never hear from or see them again.

Look, when it comes to those first few dates, it can be a financial risk, if you make it so. I feel for the OP, but if he doesn’t realize going in that he can’t afford to drop $200 a weekend for date expenses (or continue to do so), and he chooses not to say anything, but only allows his resentment to grow, while silently hoping she’ll plunk down some money, he has much to learn, like communication. For all we know, he may have wanted to really try and impress the girl (it’s certainly not unheard of), so he pulled out his wallet and played the big man. Then, when everything started to roll along, how is she supposed to know anything different, if he doesn’t open up? He’s expecting her to read his mind, which I know women do all the time, too. , while continuing to shell the dough out.

There are countless things about dating that are not fair. How many times has Evan told us this? Sometimes things are as they are. End of story. If you don’t want to risk too much financially pretty early on, then suggest lighter fare, maybe a nice brunch vs. steak and champagne. I still love simple dates better than fancy ones anytime, so I don’t think a guy is going to feel like he’s been robbed like an ATM, if he goes out with me. If you don’t like the way someone is treating you, then move on. If you’re mature and strong enough to let your thoughts and feelings be known in a productive and non-cruel way, that’s ideal, before you may still have to move on. But if you speak up, you just might be surprised.

In this case, the girl might say, “Wow, what a relief! I was raised to believe that a man should always pay, and that men don’t like to have their masculinity questioned or their egos stepped on, but all of this money that you’ve been spending has been starting to make me feel uncomfortable. So knowing that you’re okay with my paying for some of our dates is great!” And while she hasn’t made that fake reach for the bill, maybe she’s been holding back on this out of concern that she might offend you because for all of the men who want that fake reach or to go dutch, there are countless others who would feel offended by it. This is why communication between both parties is so important before it reaches the point of two otherwise good-for-each-other individuals part ways over misunderstandings and wrong assumptions.

p.s. Some individuals are thoughtless, too. Maybe it hasn’t occurred to the girl to offer to help pay or try and show her appreciation in other ways. No way of knowing without talking.
Jadafisk 166

Greg #160.
Most women are not going to be targeted by PUAs, even if their ranks eventually swell to comprise a solid… 5% of all single men. Online, novices will e-mail blast women, but in-person encounters will be rare. Non-clubgoers who are in the late twenties + range (the women who comprise the majority of EMKs readership) are largely safe, because they’re not considered “prime HB targets.” As an unintended consequence of the selectiveness of PUAs, this group of women will continue to be wined and dined by men who are not whenever they encounter an interested man. The women who are targeted by PUAs the most heavily are the 17-23 crowd – the women who are the least likely to expect formal dating in general, “traditional” cost allocation rules in particular in the first place.
Sheyna 167

Hmm I’m not a punisher, but I am too much of a wimp to say at the end of a meal or round of drinks, “I had fun but let’s make this the last time we ever see each other again.”
I will say something to that effect but nicer via text if they ask me out again.
But, it’s a sticky situation if we go to dinner and we’re having a decent time but I know that I don’t want to see them again.
Do I say, “Look, I insist that we split the check because I don’t want to go out with you again?”
That’s probably the best…cringe-inducing…way to go. I can easily see that a man would feel taken advantage of, having gallantly waved away my proffered debit card in order to impress me or whatever, only to find out that it was completely for naught.
nathan 168

I would agree that PUA tactics probably aren’t going to be common experiences for the women who read this blog. However, one thing to understand about PUA is that it is trying to fill in a gap for men who, for whatever reason, aren’t confident and outgoing enough to find someone. It’s not just “players” using these tactics – plenty of men that keep being labeled “beta” here are using this stuff to change that. I, personally, find the whole thing really forced and canned, but I keep running into men online talking about how they’ve used parts of PUA to gain confidence, or just to figure out how they might change their approach to dating.
Diana, your point about fairness and unfairness – from what I have seen, women have gotten pretty good at challenging the various unfairnesses directed at them in the dating process. Men, on the other hand, seem less likely to speak about such stuff. Or, they only do so in the company of other guys, where the potential impact is lost.
One way women have addressed unfairnesses is to write dating and relationship material, and educate each other about the modern dating world. There are tons of blogs, books, and other materials out there geared at helping women sort through the topsy-turvy modern dating world. And the fact that so may of you read blogs like this daily points to the level of interest. It also points to the fact that while many men are spinning around in circles, confused and frustrated, women have the material to take dating into their own hands.
For men, there’s much less material directed at them, and of what is, a fair amount is either shallow, or is solely about getting laid. I have found myself reading material directed at women and picking out what might apply for my dating life. And in the process recognizing that there really isn’t much available for men to learn, and reflect on their dating lives that isn’t tainted with either PUA style tactics, or superficial goals.
What’s interesting to me is the general dynamic of this thread itself represents another shift in “unfairness” here. Specifically, that of the voice and position of women. Many of you speak of “traditional relationships,” but seem to forget that under that model, not too long in the past, the voice and position of women on most issues was at best a secondary concern. Here, if you scroll through my comments and Nodes’ comments, and then the responses – it’s almost completely a tennis match. I say something, and the women hit it back at me. Node says something, and the women bat it back at him. That’s totally modern folks! Not at all what you’d find in a traditional relationship 50, 60 years ago.
So, while some of you label David a whiner and a user, mostly what I see is a guy who doesn’t know how to express his needs, and who has bought into the idea that he has to spend a bunch of money to keep this woman around. I totally agree with other posters that the woman might be uncomfortable with his spending, and might not want that at all – but odds are she is more skilled at talking about such things than he is, and no matter what he does to try and change the situation, he’s going to have to risk “looking cheap.” Now, that might not be a big deal to any of you, but perhaps it is to him. As someone in a similar financial boat, I know that sense of wanting to show you care, but also having to watch the money all the time.
Evan Marc Katz 169

I appreciate everyone’s feedback, especially the regular posters. However, I’m very surprised I didn’t get much acknowledgement of what it’s feels like for a man to have to pay for a series of uninterested, unappreciative women, over and over again. If you, as a woman, would like to have your feelings acknowledged by men (and me), wouldn’t it stand to reason that it might be great for you to acknowledge this? Wouldn’t you agree that it absolutely would SUCK to have to pay for men who you don’t like and don’t plan on seeing again? I didn’t hear ONE of you say that – only more cries to tell the OP not to spend so much money.

And the reason I’m pounding this drum, once again? This is a blog for women to better understand men, not to tell men how to change. I only did this post as an experiment to see if anyone would bite on blaming the guy and a lot of you bit.

As a dating coach whose primary goal is to help women connect with relationship-oriented men, your desire to find fault with men in every situation should be something at which you look closely. You’re sounding a lot like the guys who can always find a reason to blame women. Seriously. Take a look at your initial desire to defend women/blame men.

It’s not working for you, if you listen to the voices of the reasonable men on here, like Nathan and myself.
RH 170

Thank you Evan for your insights and thank you Nathan for your reasoning.
I especially appreciate Nathans ability to communicate his ideas in a very clear, concise, non-aggressive and non-accusatory way.
I’ve sent my 21 year old daughter to your site because I believe that is an invaluable source of information on how to negotiate the dating world and to ultimately find ones way into a loving,caring relationship.
Diana 171

Evan #169, I understand the man’s position. I think Nathan’s ~ “mostly what I see is a guy who doesn’t know how to express his needs, and who has bought into the idea that he has to spend a bunch of money to keep this woman around” ~ in #168 is a good assessment of the OP. And I have no desire to tell any man to change because I expect the same acceptance.

I don’t think in terms of “blaming” the OP for his plight; rather more as accepting responsibility and accountability for the role he has played in his situation, as totally understandable as it is. If he has difficulty expressing his needs, then this situation (and others) are meant to help him see where growth is needed in this part of his life. And if he realizes that he has bought into an idea that he can’t afford or doesn’t believe in or does, but with limitations, then he has all the power to change this. It doesn’t make it easy, and he may encounter some women who walk, think he’s cheap or whatever, but those women don’t count because they’re not right for him.

Trying to put myself in a man’s shoes (which is kind of silly, since I clearly have no experience in this dept.), if I am meeting someone new for a first date, I am going to keep the date fairly simple and non-expensive. If I aim too high, she might feel that I “expect” something in return which she might find offensive. I am going to plan something enjoyable, yet reasonable, and I am going to feel willing to pay. After all, I presumably sought her out, and she was kind enough to accept my company. If we do not hit it off, I’ve only wasted a small amount of money and my time, although my personal belief is that no time is ever wasted, as we are constantly learning. If I can afford to date a new girl every week, or not, I adjust my dating life to what I can afford, just like how I adjust my budget to pay for all of my expenses, so that I can continue to look extra nice for the guy.

If we hit it off and continue dating, then I am either going to be the kind of guy who wants to pay for everything regardless, or I am going to follow the same advice that I wrote about in #143.
A-L 172

RE: Evan‘s #169

If you had wanted this thread to discuss men’s position as financial loser for all the dates before commitment is reached, then I think something like Node’s #156 would have been a better style of letter to post. David’s letter to me seemed to be more about what happens after the first several dates, when mutual interest seems apparent. Because many folks will give someone a second chance, and sometimes even a third, if the first date wasn’t spectacular. But very few people make it to 5+ dates unless they’re actually interested in the other person. (After all, who is willing to subject themselves to that many bad, or even so-so, dates?) So David’s letter seemed to beg the question, how should money be handled within a dating relationship? And I would say that some of the women on this board have been sympathetic to that issue.

But if the issue you want to focus on is the expense of the initial dates, then I’m with the majority of women. The first couple of dates should be picked up by the guy. As the guy is asking and planning, he has control over how much those dates are going to cost. There is no reason why each date has to cost more than $10 each (coffee date, dog walk, picnic from Popeye’s, etc). So for the price of a movie ticket (or in some city’s, less) he gets to gamble on the chance of a relationship working out. He also declares his romantic interest (whereas initially going dutch for many males & females indicates friendship only). And if the guy has done his due diligence as you recommend for all daters (e-mail a bit, and talk on the phone before meeting) then each date should stand a decent chance of working out, or at least being pleasant company. I don’t think that’s too much to ask of a guy, even working in a nonprofit who is not earning the big bucks.

If a guy chose to have high startup costs for early dates, then that was his financial decision. Of course, it’s unlikely that a relationship would go further in without some dining at restaurants or other higher cost activities. But once they get past the first 3 dates or so, they can have a financial discussion and come to a mutually agreeable solution (or part ways, before the guy has outlayed a great sum of money).
Katarina Phang 173

Yes, Evan, I acknowledge it would suck, that’s why I always let the guys decide whatever they want to do. If they want to meet me for coffee/drink the first date, I’m all for it. If they want to take me to lunch/dinner, hey…they’re the men so I will just follow. We women can’t make you do anything you don’t like. You know it! So if you don’t want to spend any money, we can’t make you do that as long as you make us do something engaging (the way my date does).

I let them lead. If I don’t like them, they usually sense it too. If they ask me out again, I perhaps just ignore the text/call (I’m too much of a chicken to tell them point blank ). If I do, then the giving back starts pretty soon MY OWN WAY (still I’m not paying for dates -not when we’re out eating at a restaurant that is-, it doesn’t feel romantic to me but I will suggest that we don’t have to spend any money each time just to let him know that I don’t care what we do, I just want to spend time together.)

I’m way over clubbing. Don’t like it at all. I’d rather snuggle in the sofa watching shows/movies, maybe with a glass of wine.

I really don’t think approaching dating with so much animosity against the other sex and resentment about the whole setting is conducive to finding the one that suits you (some of the guys here come across that way, not you, Evan). I’m sure it must be hard to be a man. But hey, aren’t you wired to hunt, kill and conquer the world, weather the storm, and protect your family? So now taking a girl to a fun, cheap date is really an unsurmountable challenge for you?

Dating isn’t easy for either of us (believe us, most of us would rather scrub the toilet than going out having free lunch/dinner with a guy we’re not interested in). Our attitude to it will increase/decrease the level of difficulty. Some of you guys, imho, doth protest too much.
SS 174

I’ll also go on record acknowledging that it would suck for men. I do. I’ve listened to stories from tons of guy friends about it (all of whom, within a few years after those horror stories, found wonderful women and married them).
That being said, I think that a lot of things about dating suck, period. And like the last few commenters have said, knowing this, one would have to take calculated risks when deciding which women to ask out and then making selections that would help keep costs down.
Maybe it’s just me, but when I think back to my days of online dating, speed dating and trying to generate dates from other methods, I think I went out with six new guys a year, at the MOST.
Very few men got from the hello stage (whether in person or online) to the actually going out and dating stage. Some men I contacted online didn’t respond to me. Plenty of men contacted me and I didn’t respond to them. Sometimes an e-conversation did take place, but something really pervy was said and that was my cue to end the conversation. Or conversation was great but HE never asked me out and I stopped writing him back. Or he went poof after things seemed to start off well.

My point is not to say that those guys were bad or wrong, but to point out my confusion about how many actual dates are resulting from men’s online efforts. Maybe I was just geographically undesirable or a secret horn was growing from the top of my head and it was visible to all but me… but anyway, if I got just six dates on a good year and each date was about $25 (some more, some less), then I’d say little more than $200 was spent on me in a YEAR by men who decided to ask me out and follow through.

So I’m honestly curious (and not in a sarcastic way) how many first dates men are having these days. I guess if they go on 30 first dates in a year, that could get VERY expensive and be VERY sucky for the man! At the same time, I would assume that eventually, one of those women would be a good longer-term prospect, and the first-date cycle would ultimately end.
Jadafisk 175

But what’s the solution if many men will outright refuse female attempts to go dutch, no matter how much/little it costs or how little they know each other? It seems like the solution *would* be free dates with no “cost question.” Are women just being asked to feel remorseful about the status quo while not enacting any changes in their dating behavior?
Gem 176

I think most every comment offered some solution to David’s problem. After all, Evan says constantly to women that they can only change their own behavior, not a man’s. So telling David to stop the cash bleed that he obviously is not happy with, and plan cheaper or free dates is not “blaming” him, but offering suggestions because he can only change himself, not her!

And why would so many women commentors offer to help him do dating cheaper unless they understood? Most women here have repeatedly said we don’t need or expect high-dollar dates. Is it because our self esteem is so low that we don’t think we deserve it? LOL, don’t think so. It’s because we do understand fiscal responsibility and that being wined and dined does not a happy relationship make!

So I think we do understand but it’s hard to feel uber-sad for a grown man who willingly chooses to empty his wallet. It’s like, Dude, stop it! Be real and see what this chick is made of….
Selena 177

#175

When I read the comments on this thread (and many others like it on this blog) from the women who are adament about paying their own way, I get the vision of men falling all over them to get a date; elbowing each other out of the way to be exclusive; “She never wants me to pay for her? Wow, she’s a keeper!”

Since we are to understand men don’t really want to pay for the woman they ask out, they are only doing it because “it’s expected” (whilst resenting it) then doesn’t it stand to reason “splitters” would be the most desireable? The ones snapped up into committed relationships immediately?

Are they?
Ruby 178

Since when are first dates, especially with someone you met off the internet, expensive $200 dates? They shouldn’t even be $50 dates. They are generally “meet and greet” coffee dates to assess chemistry. I know EMK isn’t a fan of those, but I do think that they are appropriate for those initial meetings, and they only cost a few dollars. If a man suggests a meal for the first meeting, I’ll usually say okay to that. But it’s typically a very casual, inexpensive lunch or dinner date.

If you don’t like someone and don’t plan on seeing them again, why even ask them out in the first place? I certainly wouldn’t go out on a date with someone I felt had zero boyfriend potential. Usually, it’s more a case of each person thinking the other is nice, but that there’s no real chemistry. And of course, both men and women can be “punishers” – men are infamous for their insincere use of the words, “I’ll call you”.

In the OP’s case, it sounds like his girlfriend is already part of his circle of friends. Even when they are hanging out with their group of friends, he is forking over $200. Most of the women on this blog have said that’s ridiculous, and that she should be reciprocating in some way.

EMK #159
“Similarly, just imagine if YOU had to pay for ALL of your dates with the parade of losers, liars, players and selfish, negative, clueless men you meet on Match.com.”

You said it, EMK, I didn’t.
Evan Marc Katz 179

@Ruby and Gem and everyone else who keeps saying something about the OP spending $200. For the last time, it’s NOT about the money. So your well-intentioned advice on how to make dating cheaper and how it’s his fault that he’s spending so much, etc, is irrelevant to this guy’s real issue. David’s consternation is about the feeling of being taken for granted.

His quote: “It’s not about the cash- it’s more about being appreciated and not taken advantage of.” That’s all.

Are any of the women who have been going back and forth with me going to deny that she’s taking David for granted? If not, what have these 175 comments actually been for? I’ve already given my advice to him – and all men – pay for drinks and moderate dinners 2-3 times and hope that she’s cool enough to reach and insist on the 4th date. If she doesn’t ever make a move to pay, leave her.

Can we come to consensus on that one and end this godforsaken thread already? You’ve already missed out on a great post from Thurssday because of these “who pays” shenanigans…
Selena 180

If she doesn’t ever make a move to pay on the 4th. date, leave her.

Definetly. If you are a man who doesn’t like to pay for dates, spare your wallet and wasting her time and bail. Totally on board with this one.
Gem 181

Well Evan, I think it’s been said repeatedly as well by the women and men here that if he truly feels he’s with a selfish, entitled, ungrateful girl, he should leave.

But he said he’s really into her, enjoys her company and everything is great except he can’t keep up with the precident he’s set. So instead of criticizing her, we’re offering solutions for him to work it out with a girl he seems to really like.

And no, I can’t say I believe she’s taking him for granted. I don’t know enough to make that judgment. If he really felt that way, he’d dump her and not write a letter to you so I don’t think he really believes that either. He’s just afraid to do anything about it and wished she’d do something different.

Why does he assume she’ll explode if he brings this up? I don’t believe he really thinks that, it’s just an excuse not to take action, imo. After 5 dates, if he really thought that, he’d dump her. So, NO, I don’t have tons of sorrow for him, but I have plenty of gratitude and thankfulness, and reciprocal giving for the men I date, and if that is the only point of this thread, then I’ve got that covered.
Ruby 182

EMK #179

I got that, Evan, see my post #39.
Diana 183

Evan, I very respectfully I share that I believe it’s about both the money and the way he doesn’t feel appreciated. If it were truly not about the money in any way, shape or form, he wouldn’t bring it up. The money issue is all through his letter. He even directly associates her lack of appreciation with money: “If we go out to dinner, I’ll pay for the date and the dinner, but the least she could do is pay for our ice cream or maybe buy me a single drink? I want to have that feeling, like if we’re at a bar and my girl comes up to me and asks me what I want. It’s like she has my back.”

If money were not a part of this, he’d write about her lack of appreciation in a different way: i.e. she never says thank you or treats me to a home cooked meal, or buys me a drink or shows me any special attention to let me know how much she cares and appreciates me. He wouldn’t talk about how much he has spent, how it’s straining his budget, how she always expects him to pay, how he’s not made of money, or how her old-fashioned mindset about money is starting to bug him or how he doesn’t find it fair. I get the feeling that he’s upset about her lack of appreciation because of the money he has spent.
Rob 184

@Diana 183
You are right. The OP says “money is a small price to pay” so he admits the money aspect bothers him. He says it is about showing appreciation but to him that means “pay for ice cream . . buy me a drink” and never “cook me a meal” or “give me a long back rub” or “call me up first sometimes.” If she really is as into him as he says, I wonder if she has done such things and to him they don’t show appreciation. The money bothers the OP more than he consciously realizes or more than he will publicly admit.

The crux of this is communication. She must value money too, or by now she would have bought him a gift or taken him out after so many dates. They may be right for one another, but if they never talk about this the relationship will die in silent resentment. Too much damage may already be done.
Selena 185

@179
If…”It’s not about the cash, -it’s more about being appreciated and not taken advantage of” is the case, then why dump a woman who doesn’t INSIST on paying on the 4th. date? That is if she is otherwise being appreciative and not taking advantage.

Again and again you press the point the only way a woman can show appreciation is to start paying for some of the dates. So for you, it IS about the cash. Others of us keep citing examples of appreciation and not taking advantage without cash involved.

I think you are still stung by “Ms. Sugarmama” after all these years. A situation that wouldn’t have happened if you BOTH had been following the traditional courtship model: MAN asks, MAN plans – woman does not ask man to pick up pricey theater tickets and pay for them, she let’s him ask her on a date HE chooses. (And can afford.)
Jadafisk 186

#177

That’s kind of silly. There are way more factors involved in discerning compatibility/suitability for LTRs than money. Traditional women are very desirable according to what men say, but nevertheless, churches are filled to the gills with single, young, attractive women with no prospects. Additionally, people with atypical/untraditional dating habits are also likely to make atypical/untraditional mate choices, which impacts their experiences & level of commitment success. My unorthodox choices make the impact of going dutch purely an academic issue – from what I’ve seen, foreigners (roughly 80% of the men I date) and Southern men (the other 20%) don’t give you “points” for reaching. The one guy I successfully split with was a recent arrival from a country where people don’t really date publicly, and I probably ruined him for all others. Otherwise, I’ve never encountered a man in real life who doesn’t strongly insist on paying, let alone one who lets out an audible sigh of relief when I suggest that he doesn’t, then tackles me with an emphatic bearish embrace, or some such thing. This is counterintuitive for me because paying for everything sounds totally hateable, and I’ve grown up hearing Internet guys talk all of the time about how much men secretly hate it.
nathan 187

I’ve been trying to stay quiet because this has just keep spinning round and round the same issues. But I have to ask those of you who speak about dating men who always pay, how long does that last? Are we talking a few months? A year? Honestly, I’ve never had a long term relationship where a woman expected me to foot the bill for more than the first few dates. But the way some of you talk, you’ve had men cover the bill for months and years on end. Maybe I’m misreading the comments, but it sure sounds like it.
I’ll also be honest that when I see comments like Selena’s at 185, I think “the bar just keeps getting pushed further out.”
And as to those saying “it’s also about the money with David,” I’d say yes, it is. Say he goes on paying for dates for another few months, even longer. Maybe he cuts down on spending, and makes things more reasonable. But I have to ask at that point – what is this woman doing with her money? Does she have a decent job, or is she broke or in school?
Why is it that some of the women here seem to be highly protective of their salaries, and yet balk like mad when men start raising questions about spending from there’s?
You want to know why the men on here keep bringing up spending money, it’s because most of the women we date nowadays have decent jobs, sometimes better paying jobs than us, and frankly that makes the whole “man pays and doesn’t expect any monetary commitment from a woman” narrative really flimsy. Might be fine for the first date or two, but in a committed relationship or marriage – it doesn’t make any sense to me if both partners are bringing in similar amounts of money.
BeenThereDoneThat 188

Nathan
I can’t speak for all women, only for myself. I’ve struggled with this concept since my divorce. I learned on this website that a lot of men HATE IT when a women reaches for the check on a first date because they feel it’s disingenuous. So for the majority of the time, I have not offered to pay on a first date. However, I did pay once on a first date (he asked) and I offended him. When we continued to date, having upset him on the first date, I cautiously brought up me contributing financially to our dates by date three. From then on, we would find some sort of split. Sometimes it was he bought the tickets, I bought dinner, or I paid for us to get into a club but he bought the drinks. He said a couple of times during our dating that I was the only woman he had dated who paid and he appreciated it because then he didn’t feel like a sugar daddy. More recently, I went on a first date where he bought tickets to a game and I bought concessions. However, those are the only two times in my 1st date dating history where I have paid any part of the 1st date. I like it to be more equal and it has been around the 2nd date that I start offering to pay something. Because I want a relationship of equality. I don’t mean equal in all aspects but as two adults who are in partnership together.
Gem 189

Nathan, #187

“But I have to ask those of you who speak about dating men who always pay, how long does that last?”

Current relationship has been on-again-off-again for almost 2 years. He’s never allowed me to take a penny out of my purse. I’ve bought groceries for special dinners, I’ve bought gifts, I’ve bought other food and snacks for us to take out on the lake, but I’ve done those things out of his presence, LOL, because he won’t let me take out my wallet in front of him ever, I have tried so therefore I know.

He does not spend wads of cash on dates as we are both easy going, low key people but he pays for everything. The first time he came with me to run up to the drugstore for my sick son’s medicine and other goodies, he bought that! I was flabergasted and tried to fight him saying it wasn’t his responsibility and he refused. It’s just how this guy is. He was raised to believe he is a provider.

My other two relationships each lasted 9-12 months and both men paid for everything the whole time. I would offer and they would refuse, I would offer to get the tip and sometimes I’d be allowed to do that.

In those two relationships my monitary giving came in me buying food and making dinner at home, sending them home with food: pot of chili or chicken noodle soup, baking desserts, or renting a movie to watch at home, or inviting them to lunch at home and having take-out already there that I went and bought. I also pick up gifts as I run across things I think they’d like….

The inbetween men that have lasted 4 dates to a few months never let me pay more than the tip or after dinner drinks. All of the men I’ve dated long enough to make dinner for told me they’d rather have a home cooked meal than have me take them out to dinner anyway.

“Honestly, I’ve never had a long term relationship where a woman expected me to foot the bill for more than the first few dates.”

You still seem to think that these men do this begrugingly because I “expect” it? Honestly, there are men out there who think differently about this issue. Some men would rather cut off a finger than let a women pay.
You’re not wrong for wanting a woman to contribute to the dating tab, but they are not wrong to NOT want that either. For me and my traditional values, it’s actually hot. Because of the inner place it comes from.

I will add, that when I dated the man I was married to for 10 years, we split everything and the entire relationship was very equal. So much so that I cut the grass, took out the garbage, knew my way around all the power tools. Our masculine/feminine lines were so blurred. He didn’t treat me like a lady or help me on with my coat, or open my door, or lift something heavy because I could do all that myself. I didn’t bother to cook anything special, or offer that back rub because I worked just as hard as he did! I was slaying my own damn dragons because he wasn’t gonna do it. He didn’t go the extra mile to make me feel like a woman and I didn’t make him feel like a man. We were so equal in our partnership it became passionless.

I was raised to believe in all this equality and I have found it to result in nothing but power-struggles over who’s getting their needs met more and with no guide for anything. I believe when so much focus is placed on “equality,” the people become consumed with keeping score.

I’ve never felt more sexy, desired and womanly than when I chucked all that and became more traditional and started dating traditional men. They want to provide, protect, treat me like a lady, and are way better in bed. My femininity flourished, I don’t feel the need to compete or prove how smart and on-the-ball I am, and I enjoy my playful, lusty side in a whole new way. Just my experience.
Selena 190

Nathan #187

It’s a lifestyle more than anything, there is no “time limit” lol. The guy who paid for my glass of wine and appetizer on our first date, was still paying for my glass of wine and shrimp-on-the-barbie 5 yrs. later. But by then we had lived together for the majority of those years, shared a life, shared bills, and most of our “dates” involved all the things I listed in #153. It makes me smile to imagine any of the men who loved me saying, “We’ve been together a year and half now Selena, I think it’s time you buy my $2 beer at the free beach festival. ” My parents have been together over 53 yrs. and my Dad is the one who still pays the check – do you think that’s weird? For over 50 years it’s been “their” money he’s spending on “them” – though I doubt either of my parents give the “who pays” thing even a passing thought. Or ever did even when they were dating.

It’s been my experience (and observation of others) that when people become “a couple” they start thinking more in terms of “us” and what “we” can afford, how do “we” want to spend our disposable income. Especially when they start living together. In a “traditional” relationship the man might pay the check at the restaurant, but the woman knows it won’t mean the electric bill goes unpaid. A couple works out what feels fair, equal, whatever, for themselves – by the time they actually become a couple I’d think they’d have a pretty good idea of each other’s values and expectations – otherwise why are they together?

Like other women have said on this thread, having a man pick up the tab makes me feel romantic, sexy, feminine- even if it’s that $2 beer at the free festival. Going Dutch or taking turns does not feel like “a date” to me, it feels like going out with a buddy.

So I’m a little mystified by this advice that a woman should start paying after the second or third date. I’m not “a couple” with a guy after just 2-3 dates – that’s ridiculous. And why would either party want to kill the romance when it’s just getting started? Why not just find inexpensive ways to spend time together so neither person feels “burdened”?

Anyway it’s what has worked with me and the men who’ve loved me. And I suppose that’s all that matters.
A-L 191

RE: Nathan‘s #187

My #15 explains my past experiences. Like Gem’s boyfriend, my husband really didn’t like me to pay for anything, and if he was with me when I was paying for my own personal items, it was a struggle for me to get to pay for them myself. He wasn’t even fond of me picking up the tab for his birthday dinner at a restaurant (the first year, which was about 10 months into our dating relationship).

But as I said in my #15, I would have been willing to help pay and it would not have affected my views of him.
Node³ 192

Otherwise, I’ve never encountered a man in real life who doesn’t strongly insist on paying, let alone one who lets out an audible sigh of relief when I suggest that he doesn’t

This isn’t due to any particular desire to pay on the man’s part. Instead, it’s a result of traditionals masquerading as progressives. The traditional-in-disguise offers to split the bill, but penalizes men who actually accept their offer by not going out with them again. This is a clever ploy by traditionals, as it makes it harder to differentiate between traditionals and progressives.
In an ideal world, these types of people could just be ignored, but it isn’t, for two reasons:
◆ Traditionals still outnumber progressives. My informal estimate is that there are two traditionals for every progressive, so it’s in a progressive man’s best interest to try and work with traditional women for numerical reasons, and,
◆ The exact reason for not getting a second date is usually unknown, so if a progressive man accepts a woman’s offer to split and then doesn’t get a second date, it increases his uncertainty. He won’t know whether he was dating a progressive woman and just made a mistake or got duped by a traditional-in-disguise. There’s no comparable deceit on the progressive side, so insisting on paying reduces uncertainty, even if he hates it.
So yeah, the insistence on paying you’re seeing from men is just defensive dating 101. Most of us secretly resent the status quo.
Evan Marc Katz 193

@Selena – Women should start to OFFER after 2 or 3 dates. The same as YOU feel “romantic, sexy, feminine” when he pays for you, WE feel a lot better about you when you don’t take us for granted.

That’s all that this entire thread was supposed to be about. Teaching women how effective it is to appreciate men, not telling men how to spend less money on dates. God, this job is exhausting.
Selena 194

#192 EMK

But apparently you only register appreciation, not be taken for granted, in the form of women offering to pay for dates – nothing else.
Selena 195

Node 3# 192 (?)

Why is it a “progressive” man’s best interest to try and work with “traditional” women for numerical reasons? That man DOESN’T WANT a traditional woman. Are you hoping such women will “change their ways ” if you lure them by pretending to be what they are looking for? How often does that work out?
Evan Marc Katz 196

Selena – try not to put words in my mouth. You know better after all these years. Offering to pay isn’t the ONLY form of appreciation; it’s just an essential one.
Selena 197

#196 EMK,
“Offering to pay isn’t the ONLY form of appreciation; it’s just an essential one.”

Is it? That hasn’t been my experience with the men who’ve loved me.
Evan Marc Katz 198

Don’t you ever stop? This is my blog. What is your excuse for being so doggedly tenacious? You know it’s really hard to date people like us, right?
Selena 199

#198

Dude, if you really wanted this to end you’d stop popping up and egging me on now wouldn’t you?
Jadafisk 200

“So yeah, the insistence on paying you’re seeing from men is just defensive dating 101. Most of us secretly resent the status quo.”

So… would the truly equitable female response that circumvents this resentment-building situation be to eat before she leaves the house for a date or on the way to meeting with him, notify him that she’s already eaten and then accompany him to a free event, so the pay question is eliminated? What’s the solution for progressive women?

#195 Because they don’t want them, except for the times when they do.
Gem 201

Node 192,

This isn’t due to any particular desire to pay on the man’s part.

Really? And you know what every man out there thinks and feels? How so?
Selena 202

Maybe EMK as a sideline, could start a dating site specifically for those who prefer sharing dating expenses. Could call it progressivedaters.com. That way all the progressives would have an outlet in which to connect and wouldn’t have to muddle about with traditionalists and traditionalists-in-disguise.
Katarina Phang 203

Selena, I’m digging your posts. And it’s clear that most of us agree with Evan that we need to chip in (the way I do that by paying for his french press and fried chicken, milk, my cooking, etc). But the “traditionalists” in us want to make sure we feel romanced because without that, there is no passion as #188 very succinctly summarized. Getting wined and dined for us is one way to feel romanced.

The right guy who sees our efforts to give back won’t think we take them for granted just because they pay when we eat in a restaurant. And if we do those things rare enough and we keep seeing each other because he’s so into us, the cost is pretty minimum and it’s not really an issue. It’s only an issue if he’s not that into us (in which case then he just needs to stop seeing us).

When we are more settled into the relationship, of course we can discuss this monetary thing. I, for one thing, will never let a guy pay a horrendous amount of money for us doing things together without making sure he’s okay with that. I will feel very uncomfortable knowing that money is tight with him and he’s trying to blow his cash on me.

So yes, I’m obviously not the type of woman that David is dating. And I think most women here are not either. Problem is, he needs to man up and speak up. If he feels uncomfortable of telling her how he feels and he still wants to see her, then no longer going out for them. Stay home and watch movies and start cooking together. Or go to free events as many have tried to suggest.
Katarina Phang 204

But the “traditionalists” in us want to make sure we feel romanced because without that, there is no passion as #188 very succinctly summarized. Getting wined and dined for us is one way to feel romanced.

Oops, I mean #189 by Gem. So bottom line is, guys, until you’re sure you like to keep exploring your feeling for the girls (and vice versa), make the dates as cheaply as possible so when they don’t offer to chip in, it won’t break your bank. And if you two become a regular and it’s obvious you’re so into her, bring the subject up if she seems so oblivious about the need for reciprocating.

For most women, I believe, giving comes natural. It’s how we are wired. If she’s not very giving, you really have to start wondering if she’s really functional as a woman. That’s probably a red flag.
Node³ 205

@Jadafisk #200

So… would the truly equitable female response that circumvents this resentment-building situation be to eat before she leaves the house for a date or on the way to meeting with him, notify him that she’s already eaten and then accompany him to a free event, so the pay question is eliminated? What’s the solution for progressive women?

This isn’t optimal, but it’s a pretty good alternative. I actually do this somewhat, since there are about eleventy billion festivals around here in the summer. I’m going to a lot of them anyway, so why not take a date? One caveat, though. The events need to be “non-captive,” this is, allow people to talk freely and leave anytime they want. Concerts and plays are thus not ideal. Inviting to festivals also seems to work better offline. Women online seem more reluctant to meet at these kinds of events for some reason. When it works, though, it’s great. It takes the focus off of finances and puts it on the non-material factors that actually predict long-term relationship success.

#195 Because they don’t want them, except for the times when they do.

I know this is a flippant comment, but it’s actually spot on.

For testing purposes, I just did an online dating search for my “dream woman,” that is, atheist/no kids/doesn’t want kids/non-smoker/master’s degree/income ≥$25K/politically liberal/all non-overweight body types/age range of ±5 years

Two matches. In a a major metropolitan area.

The lesson here is that people who pass others over because of one trait they don’t like are pretty certain to have one trait themselves: single. As a result, I’m only totally inflexible on two traits: smoking and kids. Everything else is negotiable, including traditionalism.

How negotiable? The Compromise Quotient (CQ) in each trait is an interaction of (importance x prevalence). If we rate importance (I) on a 1-10 scale, and the prevalence (P) of the trait is between 0 and 100 percent, we get:

CQ = (10-I) x P (0 = totally inflexible, 10 = doesn’t matter at all)

For me, the importance of non-traditionalism is about a 7, and I estimate the prevalence at 65%, so we get:

CQ = 3 x .65 = 1.95

Which means I might put up with traditionalism in people who are otherwise excellent, but maybe pass over traditionals who are just good.

What’s more, traditionalism is usually a hidden variable, so even if I wanted to completely avoid traditionals, it would be pretty much impossible.
Selena 206

Many women on this thread have spoken about how having a man treat makes them feel – respected, taken care of, sexy, feminine, romantic , grown up, cherished, valued and valued as more than something “casual”. We can blanket this and say for many women when a man asks/plans/pays (without resentment) it makes them feel special. Men (and other women) can question this and say, “Why can’t you feel just as special if you pay for some things/ your own way/ insist on picking up the check sometimes?” This is logical and most women have considered this, if not operated that way at one time or another. But for some it just doesn’t feel the same and they will choose the man who makes them feel special over the one who doesn’t.

In the same vein, a man who doesn’t feel comfortable paying for the woman on dates (all the time, most of the time, any of the time) can come up with numerous logical reasons why he feels this way. And no amount of explaining to such a man how women feel when they are treated is going to change his feelings of unfairness about it. One is not going to make a man or a woman feel differently no matter how well he/she presents their position.

Why don’t we arbitrarily set the 3rd date as the point where people decide whether or not they want to continue getting to know one another? Men follow Evan’s advice and pay for those 3 dates without getting into the fairness issue. Women do not offer to split those checks as some kind of little “test” on the man. After the third date, and before the fourth, the man initiates the conversation about sharing the costs of dating. What feels comfortable to him? What feels comfortable to her? Maybe they are on the same page – if not, they move on without any more money, time, and emotion invested.

For those women who do not like the man to pay for them period, you can go ahead and say so at the end of date of date 1. Perhaps you will find the guy relieved. If he finds it an insult to his masculinity, you know right off he isn’t a man you want to date anyway right? Men who don’t want to pay for a woman period can also say so at the end of the 1st date and hope for the best. Since women who are willing to share costs of dating often find that off-putting on a first date, Evan’s advice to pay for the first 2-3 dates is more effective with them.
Gem 207

After the third date, and before the fourth, the man initiates the conversation about sharing the costs of dating. What feels comfortable to him? What feels comfortable to her? Maybe they are on the same page – if not, they move on without any more money, time, and emotion invested.

Sounds resonable to me.

I wonder is David is sleeping with this girl yet. Reading this blog and many others, it seems for many, the trend out there is to be getting naked and sharing their genitals with virtual strangers on date 3,5 or earlier. Condom or not, they are risking sexually transmitted diseases, or pregnancy.

They’ll take that risk, but God-forbid, even when it’s obviously an important issue to them, they can’t broach the subject of what’s comfortable with regards to how they will share the cost of dating. Better to assume this or that, act against their own true desire because it’s defensive dating, and resent the other party. Good Plan
nathan 208

BeenThereDoneThat I want to acknowledge the challenge that you and other women do face with not knowing how men will react to offers of paying on initial dates. It’s the opposite end of the same difficulty that many men have.
I think it’s fine if men want to pay, and women want to be receivers in that kind of relationship – it’s the assumptions that this is either the best way or the only way that grate on me.
Node’s point about male actions vs. how men think about these issues is key.
No doubt, some men feel that offering to pay and finance a relationship is a main source of generosity for them, and/or they just feel it’s the right thing to do. However, I do think the number of men that fall in this category has gotten smaller as more and more women are having good jobs and making good incomes. One of the reasons I argue that fewer men internally are driven to be the relationship financier is that it’s not really about “providing” anymore. Most women have their own money, so notions of showing that you can “be a good provider” don’t make sense.
Some of the women here are saying that men spending money on them, even a small amount, makes them feel sexy and feminine. But you seem to forget the practical reasons why men in the past were financing dates. When women weren’t in the workplace, men had much more of a need to demonstrate financial capabilities. Being able to pay for dinners or movies showed, on some level, that the guy had an income and might be a good provider in a family. Maybe women still got some “sexy” out of it all, but I’m sure many were cued in on the long term practicalities as well.
The way I see it, plenty of men are – given the lessened focus on men as providers – simply pay and keep paying out of a sense of duty, obligation, or because they feel it’s what is expected. They know things have changed, but don’t know how to approach the money situation because the narrative around money and dating isn’t clear anymore.
I don’t, personally, think coming from a place of obligation or trying to fulfill another’s expectations is the kind of ground upon which a great relationship is built. In a lot of ways, I see it as similar in spirit to women who feel pressure or obligation to sleep with a man who spends money on them or gives them fancy gifts. It’s not about love, respect, and appreciation – it’s mostly a form of exchange to “prove” you’re “worthy” of being the others’ partner.
The difficult thing about all of this is that – in the beginning – we rarely know where the other person is coming from on financial issues. Furthermore, and probably more importantly – we don’t know how the other person understands generosity and giving.
That’s where a lot of the conflict here is really coming from.
southrnphoenix 209

No one should ever have to do anything for which they do not feel appreciated when in a relationship. Common sense has to play in there too: can he afford to pay for his dates (regardless of the cost)? Can she afford to pay for their dates? If she can’t afford to pay for the dates, can she chip in or help out financially in other ways, including being economical in her choices? Do they say thank you? No man (or woman) should be stuck with a person who expects everything and gives nothing.

One recurring theme I have seen is men complaining about planning the date. That concerns me. Frankly, if the gentleman expects me to pay half, then yes, I want to be in on planning the date because it needs to be something I can afford. But it seems like common sense to me to allow whoever is paying for the date to plan it. Really, would you let the other person plan a $200 date when your budget is more in the range of $50? To me, it’s just practical. After all, if I am inviting my boyfriend to my house for dinner, you better believe I’m doing all the planning. Ditto if I ask him out – I can occassionally afford the baseball tickets and concessions, but I’m not so likely to be able to afford Theme Park tickets. So, I’m planning for the baseball game.

Reciprocity is a character trait, and one should be looking for in a date. Yes, I expect a man to pay on the first date. That’s just part of the courting process in the United States and is an indicator as to how much he values dating me. How much he spends is up to him. If I don’t begin doing my part in the relationship, he should dump me like a hot rock. If the only thing he ever does for the relationship is occassionally pay, then I should dump him.
JerseyGirl 210

Hey Node, I was kind of with you about your situation and always having to pay. But after reading some of your further comments, I am less sympathetic. Your comments offer insight into not just a problem you are trying to fix within your own dating dynamic, but an attitude you seem to have about women in general.

You said:
“Women have expertly manipulated social norms so that men bear most of the burden of a failed pairing. ”

“Since most pairings will fail, men waste $millions every week while women are largely protected from the financial consequences of failed dates. Nice little racket women have going on.”

” Instead, it becomes just a tax that must be paid to continue seeing her Most men will reluctantly pay the dating tax because enough women impose it that it noticeably reduces a man’s dating options if he doesn’t play along.”

Welcome to dating! One gender expects the other to play by their rules to maximize their return. The rules women have to play by might not have anything do with money but are often and sometimes just as costly for us. I wonder if you even care about those.

Now, I do NOT think your orginal question is a bad one. But you have the ability to control what you do on a date but what you suggest you two do. Yes, some women are not going to stop evaulating you based on the money you are willing or not willing to spend. Just as some men are not goint to stop evaulating us women based on the bodies we do or don’t have. Yes, some women will not go out with you again if they do like your stye of 50/50 payment. Just as some men will not go out with a woman again if she doesn’t engage in kissing/petting/sex in the allowe time *he* desires. If these women rejected you based on these factors, they are clearly not the right women for you. And that is okay. It requires that you pay more attention to the type of woman you are dating and to put more of an effort to come up with fun and inexpensive dates rather then the classic dinner one. And believe me, most women are ITCHING to do something new and fun on a date then just once again going out to dinner. If you can’t charm women with your wallet, then charm them with your mind and romance. Some part of you NEEDS to be some amount of charming. And that has nothing to do with your wallet. I can guarentee you having the atttidue that women need to pay 50/50 even-steven with your arms crossed over your chest and talking about how much “women” have “manipulated” the system is about as far from “charming” as you can come and I am sure that attitude might dip into your dates.
Stef 211

I have been reading a lot of this debate and it’s very interesting! I run an introduction service in Chicago (Stef and the City) and I will comment on what I notice with dating in different age groups.

When I set up introductions, I let both sides know that both have paid to meet the other person. However, I do give ”16 Rules” out to let each side know the expectations. One of the rules is that yes, men pay for the first date. This way, no one feels that there is any confusion. I point out its only a rule I require for the first date. I also expect that both sides COMPLIMENT each other it’s free!)- something I hear a lot of complaints about- on both sides.

My neighbor is a widow and is 60. She started online dating and had great luck- to her, she is looking for companionship- and yes, she has met someone who pays for her most of the time, but that wasn’t what matters to her. As she pointed out, at her age, a lot of people are looking for someone to go with them to things they enjoy. She did turn down a guy in the beginning of her dating- because he expected her to pay 50/50 and to him- he made it sound like she was lucky that he would invest in her because he was some great catch.

Look, part of what you have to do is clarify the type of date you are going on. If it’s a match.com online type of date or fix up- most people seem to feel that coffee or drinks if appropriate. It’s inexpensive (and if a guy or girl decided to drink a lot on the date- that obviously should be concerning and not because of the cost) and is just a “get to know if I want to invest in spending more time with you”.

If you are meeting someone that you’ve already interacted with- yes, I think that ups the type of date you invest in. It’s not just about the money- it’s about the investment period. If you want to meet this woman or guy- if you are a guy you call, confirm, and plan something that is fun that you consider the other person’s location. If you are a woman, you primp- nails, hair, outfit, whatever. I still talk to more women who buy a new outfit or spend more time and money in looking good than women- that hasn’t changed.

One of the biggest complaints I hear is that since guys don’t pick women up anymore (and in Internet dating and city dating, I think this changes the rules) is that they don’t consider how much time and/or money it costs them to get there before a dime has been spent.

There still are rules I hear that guys will walk away from women if they don’t get sex in x number of dates. I know that’s a reason that women at least in the beginning place a lot of value on if a guy will spend money on her. We’re still in the age that men still do the asking on various things in a relationship. It’s still supposed to be that a man asks the women to marry her and also women still wait to see if a guy asks her out.

Here’s what I do hear from the 30′s and 40′s who don’t date every weekend- they sometimes want to go out with a date for the simple fact that there is something they want to attend- and they don’t always have the friends to go with. The date is not to “gain” anything- and an added bonus is if it turns into something more serious.

You shouldn’t be spending money to impress someone, if you are not willing to deal with the simple fact that they might be using you or after two months, just simply not be interested.

While I believe that men should pay for a few dates- that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t expect that someone chip in for other things- I would consider it rude not to in this day and age. People should be generous to be generous. There are plenty of unemployed people right now, and it’s not about how much you can spend- it’s about how much you invest in a person timewise and considering THEIR schedule.

Nathan- I’ve read your posts and it’s clear that you are in a position where your money will always be tight in your profession. However, it’s like a guy who is shorter- some don’t even get phased when someone says “You’re only 5’5″!” and some get insecure about it. If you know that a certain type of women isn’t for you- don’t get upset about it- just be prepared that you have a different group of women that work for you.

Everything isn’t equal. It won’t be- ever. But it still means that you have to know what you are comfortable with and communicate in a non defensive tone. I know that I have cousins that are much lower income than my family. I can’t stand being around the ones that see me as a piggy bank. I then alligned myself with the ones that seemed to value me- and I have never expected them to pay for me because of their financial situation- but they do- and that makes me want to do more for them. The others ones that expect me to pay for them- well I avoid them.
Selena 212

Don’t these 200+ posts just go to show there’s someone out there for everyone? Whether you are a “tradionalist”, a 50/50, or a “if he pays this/she pays that” person – there are other people, both genders, who like the same model. Why not just date them?
SS 213

Nathan @208
One of the reasons I argue that fewer men internally are driven to be the relationship financier is that it’s not really about “providing” anymore. Most women have their own money, so notions of showing that you can “be a good provider” don’t make sense.

Not necessarily. It depends on what the woman in question is looking for and what the man is also seeking in a woman.

In my case, I knew that I wanted to have kids. I would not get seriously involved with a man who didn’t want children. Nothing wrong with anyone choosing to be childfree, but that wasn’t for me. So as Node mentioned above — but in the opposite sense — a dealbreaker for me would be a man who didn’t want children.

Now, moving on… I also wanted to have the option to stay at home/work at home while our children were very young. I was not going to get involved with a man who was not open to this option. So, by nature, if I was going to stay at home for a few years, possibly more, to raise children, guess what kind of man I needed? A provider. Someone who would be perfectly willing to support an entire household on one income (or 1 1/2 incomes — I can work part-time or do some consulting work while at home).

I know Evan said in another thread that I “predictably” did not take into account that men didn’t have this option. I would love for my husband to take some time off after our children are born (and actually, he does have a career with decent flex time), BUT… no matter how equal we want to be, my husband can’t breastfeed. I was one of the lucky kids of my generation to be breastfed (it was so not the rage in the 1970s), and my mom said she was so glad she got to do that. My husband said he really wants that as well, so… once again, that is much easier to do with me at home.

So regardless of the fact that I make a reasonable salary, for me to have the type of marriage that I wanted, it was an absolute necessity for me to find a man who believed, unequivocally, in taking on the provider/breadwinner role, regardless of what I also made, salary-wise.

For women who don’t want kids, this is less of an issue. A relationship/marriage that is child-free likely won’t have such concerns. But for the type of relationship/marriage that I wanted, I had to have a man inline with those goals. And I was pleasantly surprised to meet so many men who were actually thrilled to meet an educated career woman who wasn’t so driven by her career and actually wanted to put motherhood and taking care of the home above all other objectives.

And let’s not mention if a woman has a difficult pregnancy, has to go on bedrest, has to take more time than expected off work to recover or to deal with a baby with health issues (all of these situations happened to friends of mine), it was a godsend that they were able to take as much time as they needed to get through these situations because their husbands worked and brought income into the home.

So, in terms of my dating efforts, it was CRUCIAL for me to find a man to show that he was capable of being a good provider… otherwise, I moved on to someone else.
SS 214

Selena @212
Exactly! You’ve made so much sense in this thread!

Isn’t this whole dating/marriage/relationship thing about people finding the right people for them? And yes, it can be harder depending on what qualities we say we must have versus which ones we say we’d like to have, but for those “must haves,” then we have to keep dating until we find someone with those values, or redefine our list.

So, traditionalists need to seek traditionalists, 50/50s should seek 50/50s, hybrids should seek hybrids. There will be some missteps along the way and trial and error, (as there are with any must-haves), but that’s life.
There’s no need to continually get frustrated because traditionalists exist and you aren’t one! Or vice-versa!
nathan 215

SS – these days, being a stay at home parent for any decent length of time (more than a few months) is a privilege. Even those who want to do so, often financially cannot. That’s why I said “fewer men,” not all. And of course, it’s also the case that more men are choosing to be the primary caregiver parent, so again, that lowers the number of men thinking in terms of “provider. I totally get that you what you wanted meant finding a man who wanted to be the breadwinner. My point here, which I know I have stated before, is that societal changes are driving more men to think differently about money, dating, and relationship structures.
SS 216

Nathan, very true. I have no idea what will actually happen when we have children, but I at least wanted to find a man who was open to the concept of being the sole breadwinner and would work toward that goal with me. I know a lot of men simply can’t as well, so I knew that I was purposely limiting my dating pool with this concept in mind.

And my point was simply to say that for men who do want this type of lifestyle (and for whatever reason, I met a lot of them — maybe our wavelengths attracted each other), it makes total sense that they would want to show a woman that they could be providers and stick with the traditional dating/paying model.

All that being said, the twist for me is that I would eventually like to start a small business… and if it does well, I would be the breadwinner! I joke with my husband that I’ll take care of him and he can spend his days writing after the kids are grown if he does the providing when they’re babies and young children!

People can want different things at different points in their lives as well. If I was a divorced 50-year-old with grown children, I might have a different mindset. Who knows… but as a mid-30 something, my reasons for desiring certain mindsets and traits in a man have been well thought out.
JerseyGirl 217

Sometimes I think men don’t want to take on traditional gender roles because they don’t want the responsibility of having to think of other people (women) other then themselves. That way, they can treat women like one of their guy friends with the benefits of getting all the sex they want.
Katarina Phang 218

Just watched a video by Matthew Boggs, in which he said that when a woman gives back/reciprocates a man’s effort too early in relationship, he views it not as a contribution but as a competition. He wants her to just receive, enjoy being treasured and appreciates and thanks his efforts because it ignites his sense of manhood.

So we got conflicting messages from men here.

I think the first 5 dates are really early in relationship. The first few months are in fact early.

I guess it very much depends on how much an alpha a man is (and of course his upbringing and cultural factors).
Selena 219

#217 Jersey,

This is why some women have come to feel that the men who treat (without overt resentment) are the one’s who are the most “into them”. Some have had experience with guys who insisted in going Dutch as only interested casually – sex included. Becomes a weed-out factor.
Selena 220

JerseyGirl,
Go back and read Zann’s #46. She nailed the feeling on that one.
Sheyna 221

Well i have to eat the words I posted a few days ago.

i thought it would be a turnoff to pay on the first date but I had a date on Sunday where I paid half and actually was going to pick up the whole thing — and it wasn’t a turn-off at all.

The best part was that it was a great date and I’m a little smitten.
southrnphoenix 222

Evan, of course it’s not fair. I do expect a man to pay on the first date, yes, but I always make some effort to help out, whether with the tip or drinks and I’m sincere about it. I’ve had men accept my offer to get the tip on the first date and continued daing him. However, I have also had multiple men, especially my father and brothers but also men I’ve dated, tell me that the man should always pay on the first date and if he doesn’t, I should never see that man again. Maybe it’s because I’m from the South as some commenters have stated above, but a man that doesn’t pay for the first date is not seen as a gentleman. I’ve even faced a man that was offended that I offered. I’m also not your normal wealthy client. I’m a single mom that makes a good salary but doesn’t receive child support, so my disposable income is limited. The man I’m seeing right now makes 30% more than I do. I still try to help defray the costs – I drive to his home at least every other time, eating the cost of the 80 mile round trip in addition to buying a couple of rounds of drinks or paying for the tip. That’s what I was talking about above. Above all, there has to be equity in the relationship. I will also admit that on the two occassions that a man made it plain he expected me to pay half on the first date, I paid it and never looked back at him again.
Shelagh 223

Women should pay or offer to pay. Not all women are like this. FYI. Just as she relies on you to make her happy, she should be doing the same thing for you. She’s not even making the attempt. You could try to approach the subject with “I don’t think it was your intent to make me feel this way…” and go from there. You should say something. If it upsets you and she blows up on you or treats it like it’s nothing then you’re not spending time with someone that appreciates how generous you are being. She should not get upset. You should be able to communicate that to her some way. The first “talk” about anything is always hard, but it could give you some insight to how she handles problems in relationships. it’s unfortunate that it has to be about money, but she should have seen this coming. Good luck!
David 224

Wow talk about a huge response. Thank you everyone for posting your point of view and especially Evan for posting my concern and commenting on it. Unfortunately, I was not able to read every comment but I did take a good amount of time brisking through.
Let me just add that my girlfriend and I have been dating for a little over a month now. I am 25 and she is 24. I must add that I live at home, and plan on moving out, and she lives on her own and is not that well off, financially. At the same time, she is in France as we speak right now enjoying herself so we can’t say she’s poor. She had bought the ticket a long time ago and didn’t want it going to waste, just fyi.
Quick clarification, I dont spend $200 every weekend, but there have been a few dates that have broken the bank a little. For example, I will think creatively and take her to the beach / museums / outdoor dates, but they always turn into a nice dinner after, followed by a few drinks. I agree with all of you when you say “live within your means” and I will raise the issue next time were on the subject.
I also talked to her about my situation. I told her, very respectfully, that I was aspiring to move out soon and I wanted to save my money and invest in order to purchase a condo or simply start renting. She really doesn’t like talking about finances. Whenever we bring it up she says “we’re not married, so why do we talk about this like we are” and I told her im not a bank and cannot afford as much as she might expect. She then goes on to tell me “youre not like any guy ive dated before. Ive never had this convo” which leads me to believe all the guys she dated before were either rich or chumps.
I think there will be a turning point when she gets back. I will stick to my guns and if she decides she never wants to pay, then ill “live within my means” and do stuff I can afford or simply move on from her. I mean, I satisfy her in every way imaginable, especially physically, so I am not sure why money is “required” to satisfy her, as some have insinuated. While I do love to satisfy her, I also keep my independence. We only see eachother during weekends, which is my idea. She wants to see me more often, but I am too tired after work and she never wants to drive, just wants me to drive. I cannot do that, I have a life. I need to hit the gym and be with my friends too. Not sure if that’s an issue?
And to answer some others, she does try to influence the locations / restaurants we go to for dates and she will indeed pick expensive places. I have to just put my foot down and she will have to understand. Otherwise, this whole thing might not work out. Like I’ve said before, I am not a cheap guy I just don’t understand this backwards way of thinking. I mean, it just seems appalling to me how someone could have that type of mindset…. or think that it’s ok.
Node³ 225

@JerseyGirl #210

Yes, there are some “rules” that men impose on women, but I argue that there’s one key difference between those rules and the rules women impose about paying: social approval.

If a man complains that a woman wouldn’t have sex with him soon enough, or that she didn’t have a supermodel body, he’ll be roundly criticized, as he should be. By contrast, a woman who complains about being unable to leech resources from a man will generally receive sympathy and approval from some men and most women. This makes it easy to spread false memes like “men who want to split only want sex.”

This social approval goes further than that, though. A rather large portion of the dating literature I’ve seen endorses the “leeching woman” concept. Even Evan partially endorses it. While he doesn’t appear to endorse financial leeching, the marketing page for “Why He Disappeared” suggests he does endorse effort leeching* and social leeching**. People should be calling out those who endorse leeching just as they call out men who demand sex. If that happened, dating advice would change, and it would transform dating from a pursuit model (he gives, she leeches) to a meeting of the minds model (both participate equally in all aspects, not just financial).

* Effort leeching: Refusal to participate in the planning or execution of dates, refusal to act independently to further the relationship.
** Social leeching: Refusal to initiate communication, refusal to ask for what she wants (sex, commitment), not talking much or self-censoring to avoid appearing “competitive.”
Evan Marc Katz 226

Hey, Node: I disagree with you, buddy. In principle, I get where you’re coming from. In practice, it’s not my job to change the desires of billions of women or all of recorded history.

The EASIEST and MOST EFFECTIVE way to tell if a man is interested in a woman is for her to do nothing: A man who is interested in a woman will ask her out, plan the date, pick up the check and follow up to see her again. If he doesn’t do that, he risks not getting a second date. It seems much easier for a guy to play by those rules than to try to change them, no?
Evan Marc Katz 227

Oh, and thanks to David, the Original Poster, for coming back to give us an update. Your question was great conversational fodder, to say the least!
Selena 228

@ David #224

I’m surprised that any 24 yr. old woman living on her own would not understand a 25 yr. old man wanting to get his own place instead of living with his parents. From your second post it doesn’t sound like you are the best match, for that and a few other reasons.

Thanks for commenting and dealing with our speculation – brave of you.
SS 229

Agree with Selena again.

David, it doesn’t sound like this woman is very considerate or sensitive to your situation at all, especially considering that she dismisses your attempts to talk about finances.

I don’t see a happy future with this girl, unfortunately. Or fortunately. It’s probably time to cut the cord.
David 230

Yeah I have gone back and forth about ending my relationship with her. The problem is that she has been part of my social circle for some time now. As in, she was a friend that hangs out with all of my other friends before we started dating.
The ok thing is that I dont think I would have bad blood with her and I dont think she would be the type of have hard feelings either. We both cherish our friendship with eachother, it was just nice to be intimate as well. I will go ahead and balance on the fence of a little while longer – at least to get a better understanding on whether or not she’s willing to compromise.
We shall see…
nathan 231

David, now that we have some more information, I agree with SS and Selena that she might not be the best match. But I also think it’s worth giving her a chance to step up and respond to your needs. Maybe in a few weeks or a month, she’ll have taken in your views and realize the relationship is more important than having fancy dinners and whatnot. Or maybe not. Best of luck to you.
JerseyGirl 232

Looks like I confused Node with David who originally asked the question. Which makes more sense now. David, it’s not really a good sign that she was even unwilling to talk about finances. It’s either a sign of immaturity or insensitivity. That’s all I am going to say.

Node, as for you, if a man complained that a woman didn’t have a supermodel body, he would be roundly criticized by other women. But he wouldn’t neccesarily be criticized by other men. Other men might say “well that might be unrealistic but what guy doesn’t want that right.” I’ve heard more men congratulate each other on the younger age of their partner then I heard men champion a woman’s kind heart. And if you will notice, there were a number of women on this thread that see no issue on paying and splitting things.
Katarina Phang 233

David, she’s a spoiled, entitled diva. Not girlfriend material. Nuff said.
Jlina 234

Node – Just saying, you’re smart, you’re logical…and I bet you’re getting in your own way with a lot of social mores and scorekeeping that’ll keep you out of the “game,” however you want to play it.

David – this chick wants more than you have to offer – girls that go to France have dreams….of men who can fly them to France for spontaneous dinners. Some of Evan’s it’s the way it is, man….

And about the subject! I am SO glad I learned to love oatmeal and McDonald’s lowfat ice cream. I could take or leave a $200 dinner in an instant – actually, I could leave it. I dated Mr. Charisma who once mentioned that “our” dining bill had been $3,000 that month. Ummm….I hate eating out -esp. at “fancy” restaurants that inevitably tailor their service and hop to it…then leave you to sit at least 30 minutes to wait leisurely on the bill. I didn’t enjoy being arm candy, nor the vicarious thrill he got as men’s heads turned when I went to the restaurant. And voila! I emailed my BFF just this last weekend I’d rather sit home with current boyfriend than go out to dinner with last!

So, first dates at lunch special prices or cup of coffee prices shouldn’t break anyone, nor be a subject of such controversy! And at most, I’ll say shall I get the tip – esp. if he’s going to be a 10%er!!….But say they were all at Chili’s avg. of $50 each – a man would meet 4 new women for his $200 investment.

And here’s the math NO ONE’s talking about.

Pedicure – you can get by possibly with 3 weeks but in summer say every two weeks @ $20.00 to wear strappy sandals that even @ Payless prices are about $35.00 plus the cute summer sundress that at a minimum was $85.00 at Burke’s outlet.

Then – the manicure, or the hour to do short well manicured buffed and shiny nails yourself, the teeth whitening, the hair cut and color – I do my own to afford my fab. blondeness – and a full on color takes 3 bottles at pro discount prices from the beauty supply – so a total at home of $15.00 and an hour and a half.

For a date, the hair wash, the leg shave, the perfume (cheapest around is still $80 a bottle unless you’re a teenager), the makeup – even at wet and wild prices it’s gotta somewhat match your cute sundress so say a new eyeshadow and mascara and a mineral foundation – oh, $30 or so…

and the face wash and the Clarisonic or Olay face brush so you won’t need foundation – anywhere from $200 to drugstore $35.00 a month. And the shimmer lotion, or the self tan….and if you’re really feeling it the bra and panties from Victorias @ about $100 minimum….

And the get ready time? An hour and a half.

I’m sure the drive and gas time equate, though.

So – I do all this which is easily and highly probable to cost MORE than $200 a month, and some “average” man who contacted me and invited me out to dinner is going to complain about paying the tab?

Yep, I’d rather eat oatmeal and cottage cheese with canned peaches – total of maybe $1.50!

And for the question of do men pay after a dozen dates…well by then you might think you’d be discussing long term merging of finances….

and the question of does a $200 dinner get you sex? is just EWWWW…..but yep, still alive and in full blown operating out there in the internet dating world.

I found my guy after about 2 years and maybe 100 different internet meet and greets with about 10 actual turned into a few dates. And I am one picky woman. And he got me for a grand total of say $20 for lunch at IHOP when I wasn’t hugry and ordered an egg and a toast….it was far more when he went to Home Depot with me and helped me get a bunch of stuff to take back to my job that he followed me to and unloaded for me…Yeah, that was what I was looking for in a man!

And no one I date ever doesn’t think they’re appreciated - although I draw the line at going to see “Monster Trucks!” lol….

I’m with Kat on this all the way – lots and lots of ways to say thank you and be appreciative without confusing the woman’s movement with splitting the dinner bill like you would with your best friend – and even if you do this with your best friend, please dont’ be someone who say’s oh, I only had the salad so you owe $5.00 more….just. don’t. Suggest bicycle riding and eat Cheerios! Save your friendship.

In my dating world, a woman that would help clean a man’s apartment was far more in demand than a woman who would pay her own $20 – and I do think there’s a lot to be said for masculinity in letting him do as he wants – when he initiates, plans, asks, etc.

And resenting someone because you paid for her burger and she’s never going to see you again? Yeah – I’ll stay home from that date, too.  So maybe a burger should be a small consession for the soft, silky, feminine, pretty womann smiling at you across the table – or just part of the cost of admission to the dating world in general!
Gem 235

David,

I’m glad you are taking steps to open the communication and find out if this girl is indeed a match or not. Sounds like perhaps not if she won’t even really talk about it. Either way, being responsible with your finances and open and honest with your partner is admirable and I respect that.
Evan Marc Katz 236

Jlina, just to quickly puncture your math: We don’t care about your toenails or your fingernails. We want you to be made up, but you don’t have to lay it on thick. Not to mention that you don’t color your hair, buy new sandals and sundresses, and buy new makeup, and bra and panties set EVERY time you go on a date. No one said that there are NO costs to being a well-maintained woman; just don’t exaggerate them here.
Jlina 237

Evan, lots of men care about your toenails! In my experience almost all guys have a little foot fetish in them. I lowballed the maintenance costs actually – said it was more than $200 a month so I did amoratize. (using clothing only for dating without any crossover into work wear and at bargain TJ Maxx pricing, asuming more than one wear…) It’s probably – with gym membership and time at gym thrown in more like the aformentioned $800 a month – but for dating I only considered 1/4 of that. Point is, it takes a huge investment in time and money for me to show up to have someone buy me a burger, or coffee that I may never want to see again. And who may not go to gym, have decent loafers or get hair cuts! It goes both ways. I don’t want to spend 2 1/2 hours on a no return deal either. But it’s that or don’t date – so – again, it’s the cost of doing business, or admission to the game and no one had mentioned it from the woman’s side.
A-L 238

David,

Thanks for coming back and clarifying things. I wish you the best of luck in your efforts to become more independent. My feelings about your girlfriend are similar to most other posters’, but maybe she will surprise us.

RE: Jlina‘s #234

Just because someone goes to France (or another international country) does not mean they expect the man to finance sed trips, or to finance a cushy lifestyle. I spent a year studying in France and traveling around Europe. And I would say I’m among the more sympathetic to guys’ financial situations. A love of travel has no impact on that.
David 239

I would have to agree with Evan on that one. You seem to think that you ONLY do all those things for the date / the man when in reality, you do most of that for yourself. Don’t tell me you got get a manicure and pedicure cuz the guy wants you to. Or go get your makeup done and get some fancy clothing cuz of the guy. Sure you want to look good for him but you also want to look good for yourself- so youre confident and fell good about yourself.
I mean, to be perfectly honest, I really dont care about all those things. Unless we’re going to a wedding or a nice night out, I like my women to be as comfortable as they please… Onto another thought, I dont find appreciation through monetary reimbursement. I don’t live with my gf, I dont have my own place and I only see her max 3 times a week. We dont have those opportunities to help eachother out and when the opportunity arises, it’s usually just me helping her out. She doesnt cook and she never drives to my house, albeit I live with my parents so thats understandable.
On the other hand, I do barbeques for her and her roomates, help to clean up and wash dishes, drive her to the grocery store and even help her register for her classes while she is on freakin vacation. All of those things really show someone you appreciate them. All I ask for is some reciprocation.
And it’s not like she doesn’t have the conversation with me, it’s just that she would rather talk about something other than finances. I made my situation perfectly clear and she understands. It’s what she does with that information that will determine whether or not this relationship sticks.
BK 240

Ugh. Sorry if this has been brought up already, but I got about 80 comments in, and I had to respond.

The point has been made that gender equality doesn’t mean gender symmetry/sameness. I agree. The real point of gender equality is nobody should feel the need to play a specific role based purely on that person’s gender. The gender a person identifies with isn’t good criteria for how a person should behave or the role a person should have. It may have been 100 years ago, but we live in a different world today.

It’s fine if women want a man to pay for a date. I agree with Evan that it certainly is EFFECTIVE for a man to pay, and I think the comments here agree with that. However, I think a lot of women here are putting too much emphasis on a man’s willingness to pay for a date. Notice I didn’t say ability to pay. This isn’t about money. It’s about traditional gender roles.

And it’s fine if women want a man who can show he can provide and is generous and exhibits the traditional masculine characteristics. Just as it’s fine if I say I want a woman who is uber-chaste, super-feminine, and ultra-submissive to me because that’s traditional, and it would make me feel like a manly man. (I didn’t say I want that…this is an example.) But I think if I felt that way, then I’d be ignoring the reality of the modern world. Deciding how the financial responsibility of dating should play out is tricky. I don’t think women want a man who is 100% masculine all the time because there’s no room for emotion and caring. I just find it interesting that paying for a date is the manifestation of masculinity that women place so much emphasis on keeping.
kenley 241

David,

The more you describe your relationship to us, the more I think this girl isn’t the one for you. You seem to be doing ALL the giving and she seems to be doing ALL the taking. I think there are some things you need to have a conversation with your potential girlfriend about — some things that might be specific to you and your particular needs. However, do you really need to tell a girl that she should be contributing more to the relationship than just showing up? I don’t think so. My feeling is that when you have to ask for something so basic, that person just isn’t the right one for you. I think you probably should move onto someone else.

Good luck.
JerseyGirl 242

Jlina, I never get pedicures or manicures. I do alot of gardening and painting in my spare time and i just never really pay much attention to my nails other then to keep them clean and neat. And i have yet heard a man complain about my feet or hands. Infact, sometimes my hands and nails get stained from paint that no amount of soap will get rid of and it’s something a few men found charming. I do most of the other maintance you descirbed but i do that for me mostly. Getting my hair done, buying a new outfit, going to the gym are things that make me feel good. Sure, if I have a first date coming up I wll book an apointment to get my hair done if I need to and pay extra attention to my make-up. Being a woman isn’t cheap but i am not going to justify a man paying because he likes the results. Now in a marriage, it might be a little different but in the dating phases? I’m not so sure that’s a good arguement.
TS 243

David, after reading about how you help this girl out at her place and are generally a supportive guy, I’m inclined to change my mind about you – not before reading this, b/c frankly, I don’t see why any cheap/free date has to turn expensive since dinner can be made at home and beer can be bought at the store & I still say it’s the man’s job to show his interest by planning dates – and so say if you’re feeling taken advantage of, then you are.

Your call on ending things though in my experience, if things feel one-sided all around, and I mean in all aspects of the relationship, not just who spends what $ on whom, then you’d better like it that way or move on.
David 244

Thank you everyone for your comments. This is one of those subjects where no matter what someone tells you, you go with your gut! Like I said, I am not one to quit so I will definitely work on the relationship, but in the end, you cannot hide true feelings, you cannot hide the direction your heart wants to go in and if it wants to go, then I go!
Thank you all
Jlina 245

Jersey Girl – Hi! Cool about the painting and gardening – I do those things too. But the upkeep for me is not so I feel good, I feel fine. It’s to maintain a social currency or what in game speak is high value; it’s as applicable to my job as it is to dating. I will admit tho – I love my happy toes as much as men do. They’re like little paintings waving up at me.

Still, my point is women do a lot of work to show up at that first date that a man probably doesn’t. Does that require him to pay? No. Does him paying make me feel like he’s made an equal committment?  Yes.

Does him paying make me think he’s manly or desirable or able to provide? No.  I’ve had first dates at a park, at a McDonalds….and I still like thinking that the person has made some sort of effort to show up, to treat me, to plan – like that. I want to be appreciated too is the simplest way of saying it.

Since I wasn’t looking for a man to pay for meals this is more of a logical arguement from me though for factors that weren’t being considered in the conversation.

And to fantasize about being flown to Paris – it might not be the actualy everyday reality of those of us who like to travel – I speak a foreign language and have lived in a foreign country…..but it is something that is possible and might warrant consideration.

I’m off now and wish everyone well.

David, you sound good and glad you checked back in.  I bet you’re an amazing boyfriend and hope you find the most appreciative girl around. But, you’ve already learned love’s hardest lesson (in my opinion….) the heart wants what the heart wants. If you decide you have to walk away, that’s the thing. Love doesn’t make it all work out, there’s logistics and balance and “good enough” and a continuum to “unacceptable” all along the way. Good luck!
Still Looking 246

David -

Chemistry can sometimes blind one to issues of incompatibility. When I was a poor grad student 25 years ago I gave my girlfriend my credit card to buy a dress for a party. When she returned with a $500 dress I ignored the huge red flags regarding her sense of entitlement and total lack of concern for my financial well-being.

She was an amazing person in many regards but her total lack of financial prudence took a major toll on our lengthy marriage.

Financial incompatibility is at the root of many divorces….don’t ignore the red flags.

BTW – I understand your concern regarding the lack of gratitude and reciprocation. Some people give and take. Others just take. Don’t ignore the red flags!
Goldie 247

Have to agree with Evan on #236. As a relatively new dog owner (5 yrs), one thing I find in common between guys and dogs is, both live in the moment and don’t analyze. They just take in the whole picture. Woman looks good and smells good, period, this is where it ends. Just about every guy in my social circle will take this at face value and not pick a woman’s appearance apart, trying to figure out the brand of her clothing, the quality of her manicure and pedicure (I do both at home BTW), whether her clothes are brand-new, previously worn, or several years old, etc etc. I mean yeah, I would imagine that if I go out with, say, a Hollywood movie producer, he’ll probably analyze my looks with more scrutiny, but it’s never going to happen
Nell 248

This is about manners – but not in the chivalry sense. This girl is rude. Get out now. She won’t change, and she will probably meet someone who doesn’t mind the way she is. But you do, so you should move on. (My husband broke up with his [then] girlfriend because she complained about giving a lift to a friend for a weekend camping. Someone else had organised the whole weekend, paid brought the gear, paid for the site, and she was complaining about being ‘used’. My luck was in. We met a month later.)
Jonathan Marcus 249

First, do you have an idea about her finances? If you see that she has new clothes, shoes, bags, etc…then she has money. If not, she may be very tight on finances.
You need to have a talk with her about finance. How you are with your finances, your view and your attitude. Do you believe in pre-nuptial agreements, etc….
You need to be the ALPHA MALE and that goes beyond just paying for things. It is an attitude and you need to face your fear and have an honest talk with her about her views on finance. However, do it with tack and don’t just blurt out why she have not paid for anything.
Also, be creative. Not every date you need to spend $200. Next time you buy ice cream, pretend you don’t have cash on you and if she can pay for this one. Test her.
Helen 250

David, is it possible that your girlfriend is trying to be a “Rules girl”? It sounds like that, with the insistence that you pay and drive to her place, and going off to France on her own. This is one of the reasons I don’t care for the Rules: because of the reinforcement of gender stereotypes, as many people commenting here have already wisely pointed out.

Feeling taken for granted goes both ways, you know. Men may feel taken for granted when they are expected to pay for dates. Women feel taken for granted when we are expected to take on the lion’s share of cooking, laundry, housecleaning, childcare, elder care, grocery shopping, etc. You can be quick to say, “Well, I’m not like that, I don’t expect my man/woman to do that…” but the point is, these were the traditional roles, and many people still unconsciously form expectations based on them.

To Evan’s earlier points about feeling taken for granted: I don’t think anyone ever means it personally. We are just all in an in-between stage, in which we are transitioning from old to new social norms. Every individual is caught in a different stage in that transition, with some eagerness for the new ways and some wistfulness for the old. Talking things out and understanding the other’s expectations would go a long way here.
David 251

Not sure if this blog post is still alive, but I will continue to post to give some of you a bit more insight. I have addressed this above, but I will reiterate:

She is NOT well off financially. She is going to school and her money is used to pay off rent, etc. She doesn’t buy herself new things and she doesn’t walk around with the fanciest of clothes. Again, she is in a financial stump.

Personally, I don’t make the most money in the world. I am trying to save to move out. We have had this discussion before and now that she’s back from her vacation, I will have to test out whether or not we can continue to collaborate and to progress or not.
I have had the finance talk with her and while she does not like to talk about it, she seemed receptive to my situation. As far as the “test” goes… We went hiking the other day and I didn’t have cash, and we were at a cash only kiosk. She bought us ice cream and lemonade, which wasn’t really expensive. She seemed ok about it, so that’s a decent sign. I went on to buy dinner and pay for the date later on.

She had bought her France ticket with her last BF last year but they broke up and she had the ticket as extra. That’s why she went. She expressed to me how much she wanted to go with me but I told her I couldnt afford it. She barely could afford it, but worked it out cuz she stayed w/ a buncha friends instead of hotels. Hence, her financial situation.

She does cook breakfast sometimes and I do spend most my time at her house, sleeping over there and stuff. She doesnt like to come to my house and I can understand – I live at home. She does drive out to hang out though (we share a lot of the same friends).

Like I said, there are definitely some RED FLAGS involved and only time will tell whether or not I heed those warnings. I am not quite IN LOVE with her, but I do care for her an awful lot. I will continue to test the waters and return back with an update. Right now I am just happy to have her back and to spend time with her.

She told me “neither of us are giving the relationship 150% and I want to change that; lets change that!” and I was like ok well that’s a good sign. I know im giving it 150%, lets see if she puts her money where her mouth is… no pun intended

Thanks again guys.
BeenThereDoneThat 252

I hate relationship “tests”.
Selena 253

Relationship “tests” are juvenile. And they often lead to some pretty hard feelings when the person being tested finds out about it.

You’re not off to a good start if you can’t honestly communicate about what you want and what’s bothering you.
Selena 254

I’ve been thinking of different factors when it comes to the Who Pays? issue.

Are people under 35 more comfortable splitting the cost of dating than those over 45? Is it simply more common in one generation than it was for the previous one?

I wonder how being a spender/saver may come into play. There are people who feel money is made to be spent. Perhaps they are the ones who don’t mind finding things to do and paying the other person’s way? On the other side of the spectrum are people who prefer to save for a purpose. They may be the ones who are less comfortable spending money on restaurant meals, bar tabs, and activities for which there is nothing tangible to “show for it” afterward. I can see how men like this would feel reluctant to pay not only their own way, but a woman’s as well. And I can see how a woman like this would be reluctant to accept dates where she had to pay her own way that weren’t her idea.

Maybe it becomes more of an issue for people who like to go out alot? If someone enjoys going out to eat 3-4 times a week, and views dates as something semi-pricey to pricey, like concerts and theatre shows the indivdual cost adds up quickly, doubles if one is expected to treat as well. I can see how people who like this lifestyle would find splitting a reasonable way to acheive it.

Are people who prefer less expensive dates, more at-home dates, the ones who experience less angst over Who Pays?
Paula 255

$200 a weekend is nuts. Maybe it’s not so much that he pays, it’s that the stuff is expensive. Maybe the real problem is that you have a HIGH MAINTENANCE WOMAN!
Sorry Evan, but I’m old school and expect the man to pay always. I’m willing to do nice things in return but when it comes to the cash, he is to pay. If we were living together and married, then I obviously would be contributing financially.
What a turn off it would be to be around a man that expected me to pay. I’ll pay if I want to or make my contribution another way. Men are always to be giving and generous and if they are not, RUN!
I don’t expect lots of money to be spent either. I am frugal. People can have cheap fun!
settingthepace 256

Problem #1: 5 dates? ANd he’s calling her his girlfriend? Is she aware of this? Is she aware they are in an exclusive relationship?

Problem #2: 5 dates. Thats. Nothing.

Problem #3: If he wants her to pay, then ask her what she would like to do and not drive the ship and then expect to hand her the bill.
A-L 257

RE: Selena‘s #254

Good points. I’m under 35 and I would feel okay splitting the costs within a relationship. I also like lots of at-home dates, so costs don’t matter much to me. But I think guys’ perspectives are more important here than females’ since they’re the ones who are [usually] expected to pay. Any guys care to share their thoughts?
Selena 258

@257

Not only guys, I was wondering what the thoughts of women – in their 20′s, 30′s, 40′s & beyond were. Is there a difference in how one feels about “splitting” when it comes to dating men in their 20′s and men in their 40′s?

Does geography play a part? Are people who live in large cities like NYC and accustomed to going out alot, more ammenable to splitting costs than those who live in areas where there is less “action”?

On this thread, those who favored the traditional model and it’s hybrid (men pay for the majority of the date – women pay for the smaller parts of it) were the ones suggesting less expensive and at-home dates. Those who believed women should pay equally didn’t mention such options. So I’m wondering if splitting/sharing costs may have to do with what types of dates a particular woman prefers.
David 259

So I am not sure if anyone is still interested or keeping up with this thread, but I thought I would give it a bit of closure. Today my girl and I broke up. I felt like it was a long time coming, and because of this, I dont find myself as dissapointed as I thought I might have been. I just feel the most sadness when I think of all the things we never had a chance to do together.
Basically she had texted me, telling me how much she wanted to see the play Les Miserables, and I HATE plays. Even still, I put it behind me and searched out some tickets for her. Mind you, this was just for a random night, no occassion. So I come to find out, unless I wanna spend $250 on tickets, I would have to skip bc they were all sold out.
Today again she brings up the tickets and I told her in a mature tone, Im sorry babe but theyre sold out and unless I pay $100+ a ticket, we cant go. She replied, “Yeah I figured as much. Everythings too ‘expensive’ for you” in which I explained my situation AGAIN and said I want to but I cannot afford it.
Then the bomb! She texted me back with “Then maybe Ill find someone who thinks im worth it” to which I tell her, “did you not read my text? I definitely want to take you places but I do not have the means to live the lifestyle you are looking for” and the wierd thing is, before I came into her life, she was doing even LESS because she doesnt have money to spend.
So one thing lead to another and she basically told me we have different outlooks on relationships and she wants an “adult relationship” and not a juvenile one, in which I was apparently perpetuating.
I basically told her that I found pleasure in all the little things and I adored her and really enjoyed being with her, but that I felt sometimes that I was the only one putting in the relationship and sometimes that I wasnt worth it to her.
I went on to tell her how “adult relationships” involve two individuals who are willing to work with eachother and make things work and that she was incapable of doing that.
I dunno it sucks really bad, but I am glad it happened now and not further down the line. I would be totally emotionally invested and it would be much more difficult than it already is. It all sounds so materialistic to me. Fuck up a perfectly good thing bc youre not being showered with gifts and vacations? next!
Thanks everyone for your input. Like I said, I was definitely torn to begin with. If she wants to work on things, she can do it alone. Im done with that. She can find someone who doesnt mind being with her… someone who fits her idea of a perfect lifestyle.
Selena 260

I’m sorry David, but sheesh! good riddance to someone who has such an attitude. You are right, an adult relationship involves two individuals who are willing to work with each other. This ungrateful girl isn’t there yet.
Goldie 261

Wow, this is the first I’m hearing that being a kept woman is an “adult relationship”… this type of relationship is something I’ve tried to avoid all my life. If that’s what she is looking for, then, um, good luck to her, she will need it. And good luck to you David, you are really better off without her. Only thing that worries me is that you’ve mentioned before that both of you belong to the same circle of friends. Hope this doesn’t disrupt any of your other friendships. Good luck! I think you handled the situation very well.
SS 262

David, thanks for the update! Well, she sounds like a real peach, doesn’t she?

You handled yourself well and her response told you all you needed to know. Glad you’re okay with the fact that it ended, and you’ll definitely know next time to be more aware of women like this who aren’t at all considerate of your time and money!

Best of luck in your future relationships!
Kurt 263

Women absolutely should offer to pay for some early dates because men really do start to feel taken advantage of when women refuse to pay for anything. I make six figures myself but don’t think I should have to pay for everything because they women I typically date make decent money themselves. Paradoxically, I have noticed that professional women who make the most money are often the stingiest with their wallets for some reason.

I don’t expect a woman to have sex with me on an early date, but I do want her to be invested in me and show me that she likes me in some concrete way. However, a lot of women have an entitlement attitude where they simply expect a man to pay for everything and these women are often so ungrateful that they forget to even thank the man!

If I go out with a woman a few times and she doesn’t offer to pay for anything, the odds are that I will conclude that she is greedy and isn’t relationship material.

The OP’s letter should be a reminder to men as to why they shouldn’t take a woman on an expensive date early on because it is often a complete waste of the man’s money. A lot of women date multiple guys at once and no guy wants to be the chump who pays for a date only to have the girl leave and hook up with some other guy she is dating who doesn’t pay for anything.
Rosemary Breen|Compatibility and Love 264

This does seem like a relationship that is way out of balance.

What does it say about this guy and his own self esteem?

Perhaps he needs at have a serious look at himself first before he shines light on his relationship.

Cheers

Rosemary Breen
http://compatibilityandlove.com/
Ticketgirl 265

I always offer but when we go out he seems to do much of the spending so I mostly have him pick up the bill. Like if we go out to dinner i’ll order something reasonable with water he’ll order whatever the cost with 5 drinks, i mostly reach for the check when it’s a place that does not sell liquor so i know i’m not mainly just paying for booze.

He has in the past thrown it in my face that i’m cheap and I never pay for anything. I hate that I really do. I do pay he just seems to pay more when we go out cause he seems to not take into cosideration the alchol he’s consuming cost a lot more then my glass of water.

We make the same amount of money I own a home and have a child from a previouse marriage. When he doesn’t have money i’m more then willing to stay in and make dinner and watch tv or go hiking or something cost friendly. If I feel he’s really itching to go out i’m more then happy to say it’s on me let’s go and I never throw it back in his face.
George 266

It’s a choice for men. Do you want to be a provider, or do you want to be a sharer? I am not interested in being a provider. It doesn’t jive with my thoughts on equality. I want to share life experiences with someone, and taking turns paying enables this to occur. If I paid more often than not, then I’d feel as if I was buying the relationship, and that’s not what I want to do.

I appreciate not everyone likes this approach, and that’s fine. You only need to match one person.
A 267

I always offer, but I pretty much think a guy should pick up the first date. It doesn’t have to be expensive, but it’s just nice. And here’s why, Evan, we’re not quite equals: you keep telling us that the guy should be the one initiating, pursuing, making the next move. In that case, it’s the guy who decides what we do, and that may not be what I want to do with my money. If he picks an expensive restaurant, why should I pay for it? Also, if a guy is courting me–if I’m not sure–I’m not going to keep paying to find out whether I like him.
All that said, I’m dating someone now, and I’ve always offered to pay and he generally ends up paying. Out of maybe seven events, I’ve paid for two, and that seems about right for me. The way it’s worked is, if I initiate, I pay, and if he initiates, he pays. This way, I end up paying for things I’d rather do (concerts, plays) and he ends up paying for meals. However it washes out, though, I just think more of him since he generally insists on paying. I can’t explain it–it’s almost subconscious–but it’s just the way it works.
jenny 268

Evan, Evan, Evan! I’m starting to think I could become a dating counselor! I think you may have made some unfair assumptions here! Maybe I’m just getting old (I’m 47) but I seem to agree with 57-year-old Bren’s comments much of the time. I think it’s a bit presumptuous to tell men to “dump” a woman who doesn’t offer to pay by the fourth or fifth date. When giving advice to someone, we must always remember to try to cover as many bases as possible and to realize that we only have one side of the story and one perspective. In this case, we have a guy and a gal who have had 5 dates and have hung out a few times! We don’t know her financial situation; we don’t know her ethnicity (in certain cultures it is seen as unfeminine to pay; someone mentioned Southern men and women earlier, for example).
To continue, we don’t KNOW if this gal has made him dinner or has driven him to work or bought him (or made him) a gift or two at some point. All he mentions is that she doesn’t PAY for the dates they’ve had so far! As Bren mentioned, some of us with kids and lower incomes try to show our gratitude in OTHER ways. I once dated a man who paid for dinners, movies, etc…When I would hang out with him on weekends I would make dinners and do laundry for him – once I even organized his closet and color-coordinated his clothing! I enjoyed it and at the same time I was offering what I COULD offer, to show I cared for him.

I believe that most of the time, with age comes wisdom and that the longer you live the more one has experienced. Love, generosity, harmony and goodwill towards each other becomes more important than balancing the “scales” or constantly keeping score to make sure things are “equal”. I guess I’m old-fashioned like Bren……I think whoever makes more at the time should, in my book, have no problem paying more. This works both ways of course! If it is the woman who makes more, the man could contribute and show he cares by mowing the lawn, washing her car, picking flowers for her, offering to rub her back, etc!

That being said, if this guy really feels taken for granted, he should gently broach the subject with her and see how she responds. But I believe we simply don’t have enough information to assume his girlfriend is some kind of gold-digger.

This reminds me of another poster who mentioned a similar kind of issue and commenters immediately jumped to the conclusion that his girlfriend was a “user”…..until……..the poster came back later with details like this: she had 3 kids, was in danger of losing her house, her car died unexpectedly,etc…. She was very simply in a financial quandry. So, folks, let’s always remember that we only have one side of the story!
jenny 269

Well…. Looks like I missed David’s second comment (but in my defense there are 268 comments here; well, 269 now! David, glad you filled us in and I’m so sorry it didn’t work out with your girl. After reading your second post, it’s obvious you are better off knowing this sooner rather than later. I’m sure there is a lovely woman out there who will love and appreciate YOU, David, not David’s account balance.

Someone once told me love is less about what someone gives to you and more about what someone will give UP for you. It’s now clear that you were willing to make real sacrifices to try to make this girl happy and it just wasn’t enough for HER. Reading about her response to the Les Miserables situation saddened me. All I can say is you’re a real MAN – the real deal! But unfortunately, you were dealing with a little GIRL.
Sarah 270

Several thoughts here, from a woman’s perspective of 20+ years. Observations first:
- $200 per weekend is not a lot of money if someone is making $100k+ per year, but clearly a strain for this gentleman (who seems to know how to budget etc which is very cool)
- the cultural expectation of man-always-pays is still a very strong one
- it’s possible the young lady here doesn’t know how to broach/bring up the subject either (where’s all that cut-the-guy-a-break-she’s-doing-her-best-bonhomie) so we need to help both people communicate a little better. The young gentleman’s frustration is understandable and he’s asking all the right questions.
Ok, now some possible solutions:
- The young man should immediately transition to dates that he can afford on his current income, with the vibe that ‘this is how it will be on my current budget.’ He should be totally nonchalant about it and not afraid to say ‘I can’t afford that, shucks’ if the young lady suggests something outside of his price range. Important to have the limits, not apologize for them and a matter-of-fact approach (as opposed to a let’s-sit-down-and-have-a-big-scary-talk approach) can sometimes work best
- Bring the lady into the budget discussions on a regular basis. Instead of just saying yes and paying for everything, say something like ‘Ok, I’ve been thinking – those concert tickets for next month will be $100 apiece. I think we (important to say ‘we’) can swing it if we don’t eat out for the next 2 Saturdays – what do you think?’ Be really practical and straightforward, don’t go down the road of big lectures etc. The lady will likely jump at the opportunity to say ‘let me cover those tickets’ in which case the problem is solved, or engage in the discussion of ‘yes, let’s cook at home and save up for the concert.’
- $200 per weekend signals to me that on-average the couple A) goes out every Friday and Sat for a nice meal, or B) has one big blowout night in a relatively expensive bar/restaurant, possibly with friends. This is good because it is very easy to find budget-cutters that are fun. For example, learn how to cook and cook together at least one of those nights – the odds are decent that the lady will bring the wine or dessert without prompting (also nothing wrong with cooking at home together before meeting your friends out, which also cuts down on alcohol consumption). Or throw a drinks party in your apartment for 10-20 people once a month, and call it BYOB (you supply the chips, pretzels and mixers) – I am unemployed with little income and can swing this once a month. Or occasionally use your date to do something practical-but-useful (an old boyfriend of mine used to occasionally help me clean out the garage or take me to run errands I was dreading, like the DMV) – your young lady will likely be grateful and wish to reciprocate.
- if your relationship continues, set up scenarios where the lady can contribute financially (appropriate to her means) on a regular basis. For example, I dated an old-fashioned guy 10 years older than myself who insisted on always paying when we were out. So I found other ways to contribute. When we went on vacation, I handed him my $1000 (or whatever I could afford) beforehand and let him ‘pay for everything.’ Also, I bought most of his shirts, ties etc (he worked in an office) which worked really well – he felt cared for and I loved buying him ‘gifts’ without waiting for a special occasion. I also bought quite a bit of our food for his house and often bought store brands etc.
In the long-term, money is a huge issue in life, so talking about it and asking your partner’s advice/for input is a necessity – therefore establishing this pattern early-on is important. You can also ask for her help in things like picking out your 401k investment options or for advice on saving for a house down payment – if she has any financial sense, she will jump at the opportunity to share her wisdom and help cut down expenses.
Good luck!
Jan 271

I’m with Paula #255. I don’t ask men out nor do I pay for dates. It’s not about getting a free meal (because I can eat home or eat out on my own and I don’t mind doing so) this is about a man that I am genuinely interested in making initiative to see me and get to know me.

Women wanting to be equal to men is like an apple saying it wants to be an orange.
Summer 272

I believe that men and women are indeed equals but inherently different. I absolutely do not believe that a woman is meant to be the property of a man and walked upon in order for her to deserve protection and chivalry. However, I do believe in letting a man take the traditional role as leader of the family. I do work and will probably always work at least part-time simply because of the nature of the modern economy and the increasing uncertainty of marriage lasting a lifetime. However, I do desire a man who predominantly foots the bill even during the casual dating phase. Now this is not a hard and fast rule of mine – if I made great money and the man I was dating did not I would be happy to pay. And I would not expect a man to take me out beyond his means. But I don’t make much money at all and I want a man who can provide for me and our potential children and therefore someone that makes more money than me. But I will still contribute equally to the relationship, just not financially. I will stay sexy for my future husband, I will give him sex even when I am not in the mood, I will clean our home, cook good meals, mother our children, love him faithfully and never cruelly tear him down. And I would be more than willing to go to work full-time to contribute to our financial health if and when necessary. Now tell me men, honestly, would you rather have a woman that pays 50/50 for everything and takes care of herself financially or a woman who takes care of you and your household in the ways I mentioned above?
AnonymousWoman 273

I don’t think the guy writing the letter is a bad guy at all. In fact, the girlfriend could suggest just staying at home watching a movie or cooking a meal together if finances are tough.

But, I and a few other relationship books (Steve Harvey, The Rules, Why Men marry Bitches) see logic with the man paying for dates. It’s not about money, but a gesture of romance and allowing the man to treat and pursue you. There are some men that indeed derive great pleasure from treating a lady. There are some men that are so much in love with you where they don’t mind picking up the tab at all.

Am I saying that a man’s love is measured by his wallet? Of course not. Am I saying that the man must pay all the time? No. A woman can reciprocate in numerous ways to show appreciation for the man courting her (drinks, ice cream, coffee, gifts, etc).

If you both have different views on who should be paying what, maybe you aren’t right for each other.

Second, I feel money isn’t a big issue when a relationship is going well. The couple will find a way to compromise, like cutting down on eating out or making cheaper dates.
AnonymousWoman 274

Summer, very good point.

Speaking of equality, my definition is that men and women are cherished and honored equally. It doesn’t mean that they have to be exactly the same in everything. Being equal doesn’t mean that a man can’t act like a man and a woman can’t act like a woman.

I understand not everybody will agree with me.
Mary 275

I think it really depends on the financial means of each person. When I was in grad school, I had a boyfriend who was a student like me, and he was very traditional and got offended when I would try to pay. We both had very little money so we didn’t go out much, but it worked for the most part. After that I had a boyfriend who made 3 times as much money as I did and always insisted on paying.

Now I have a boyfriend (and I make even less than I did with last boyfriend) with whom I have an enormous income disparity and he pays for 95% of our outings. Here’s the thing…..if someone has expensive taste, like my boyfriend, I really am not in the financial position to even split the bill. He’s from a more traditional country, where men like to feel like the providers, so I don’t think he finds it offensive, and he knows I’m broke as hell. I do, however, try to buy him drinks when I can, and try to make up for my lack of financial contribution in other ways. He knows that I don’t make a lot of money, and I know that he has money, so what can I do? If it were up to me, we’d go out to much cheaper restaurants and I might have the ability to split things more, but the man likes nice restaurants and going on trips.

I think it should have more to do with the financial means of both people, and if one has less money, at least they can try to make up for it in other ways. But I agree that I would be, and have been turned off by guys that took me up on my offer to split the bill on a first or second date. It just feels weird and I’m reminded of a relationship I had long ago where we split things all of the time, and he was a selfish person in general in the relationship. If a guy likes to take his girl out, I think it speaks a lot about the person. If the guy in the article is having issues with his girl, he could suggest cheaper outings, or maybe just be more upfront about his financial means versus what it seems like she’s expecting. And $200 per weekend seems excessive. How many times do they go out? If the girl takes issue with it, I think he should bail on the girl. Obviously she’s an unreasonable person and its better to know now before he invests any more time.
Saint Stephen 276

@Mary
Judging from your post- i’ll infer you never read the comments section of this article.
Deeks, Mave 277

I don’t understand the “I want to feel cherished” argument. Can’t you feel “cherished” on the second, third, and so on…dates, if not the first? What’s wrong with the initial meeting being just for dutch-treat coffee to see if the relationship is worth pursuing? That way there’s no pressure, expectations on anyone, and the man doesn’t have to feel he’s less than her because he has to “earn” her company.

And in all these posts I never saw anyone acknowledge that a guy who wants to pay for everything may not have the courage to bring up a subject that opens up (as we’ve seen) a HUGE gray area, or that he’s terrified of a woman’s disapproval. What kind of “masculine” man is that?
Jenn 278

I sympathize with the OP and men in general — in addition to the financial burden of being in the dating scene, there is also the mental and emotional stress that comes with having to figure out how to ‘act’ or play a role in the dating game. It boils down to ‘how can I be an effective dater.’ The goal, of course, is to win — whatever that entails.

I can’t offer much in the way of an argument in the whole ‘how should the couple handle the bill of the first few dates’ debacle, but all I can say is that perhaps if the daters focus on each other and not on the date itself — giving the other person the proper respect and attention for the time spent, and not the details, logistics, and possible outcome of the date and its contrived setup — all else will follow naturally, including who foots the bill.
STEPHANIE 279

LIKE GOOD OR BAD HOTEL ROOMS, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. AND YOU ARE NOT PAYING A LOT.

IF YOU ARE DATING HIGH-MAINTENANCE, then you will have to pay for high-
maintenance. Part of the deal, from what I can see, if the image of a man with a beautiful and provocative woman in public, and she expects that he will pay for everything, or else, she won’t show up. A high-maintenance girl is like an escort. She won’t be there if you are not paying, and $40,000 is nothing for her. She can price the goods, that is her attitude.

She shows off her assets to get what she wants, but somehow comes off as a bankable commodity, as opposed to the skank on crack downtown outside an after-hours club who charges $100 an hour in motels and back alleys. She somehow seems glamorous and sophisticated. Girls like this usually advertise with their clothing and sleep around. They are users and takers looking for givers, men to walk all over, take for a ride, and forget about.

They often won’t sleep with nice guys and pushovers, if they sleep with anyone they date all, but they will advertise the goods to get the expensive meals, pot, gifts, clothing, champagne, drives around town, inside track of the social scene, concert tickets, etc. because that is what they are looking for….and they have sex with other men, nasty boys, that really interest them…and the pushovers are always surprised that they cannot ‘buy’ them, but they are treating women like prostitutes, strippers and escort service workers, and that is what they get. They objectify women, and get mad when they turn the tables, or just use them and dump them.

Such a man may view himself as nice and generous, but he is giver with an agenda for the taking, and he is using her in his own way. Neither the women nor the men in these situations have very high opinions of sex, dating, communication, relationships, others, and most of all, THEMSELVES…AND THEY GET WHAT THEY DESERVE…LONELINESS.
DianeM 280

I believe men should be men and women should be women. I also believe that you can’t have equality without appreciating the differences. Women aren’t men, and most of us appreciate what the men in our lives can do for us (what we can’t, for whatever reason; for example: I am *no* mechanic, even if I do have the aptitude). Unfortunately, our society looks at recognizing stereotypical differences as making one the lesser sex. Really, isn’t true equality recognizing and appreciating our differences? When we can bring those together, we have a relationship that each person feels important in.
With that said, I love chivalry. I love it when a man opens a door for me. I view it as a sign of respect. I am really flattered when he pays for dinner, whether he is a date or just a friend (I have chivalrous friends). I greatly appreciate their actions, but this isn’t something you keep score with. Their actions are part of a relationship. If I can do for them, I do. No, I don’t like it if he pays the tab, all the time, and I will offer cash. Sometimes, the bill is ripped out of my hands, or my money is thrown back at me. Okay, then! I don’t think a man has ever bought me dinner because he felt obligated to do so, and that’s the best kind of “free dinner,” because it means something.
It all comes down to respect. Man or woman, if you care about someone, you will throw the rules out the window to do for them.
Ron Diggity 281

Why should the man pay for the first couple dates to show “he cares” or “he cherishes you”?? He doesn’t even know you yet! I could see the case for down the road, him treating you here and there (NOT financing whatever lifestyle you feel entitled to, simply b/c you are a woman).

I also find it funny how women find it easy to spend another’s money for them ,suggesting restaruants they themself could not afford on their own. Way to treat yourselves, ladies! lol.

As for the writer of this letter, I think he should dump her immediately. If she is THAT selfish, and is likely to be fly off the handle on being confronted with this, she will be nothing but a pain in the ass down the road. Dump her with quickness!
Ron Diggity 282

Having gone back and read through a lot more of the post, it’s kind of amazing how at best dating is like legal prostitution and at worst is defrauding men of money. If you need a man to spend money on you to feel good about yourself, that’s pretty sad. And let’s be honest here ladies – most of you approach sex as some sort of “reward” you give a man after he has met your standards, be it jumped through certain hoops or spent enough money on you. Few of you will admit it, but your actions and verbal hints speak loud enough.

It’s funny how women will try to use the old “women may use men for money, but they try and use us for sex!” argument like it’s apples to apples. Last time I checked, (consentual) sex was relatively enjoyable for both parties, while getting robbed is not.
jbv 283

Came across this from a random google search. I am glad you got out of that relationship David. I am hoping the next post from you is that you met an amazing girl.

I was dating a girl that also didn’t ever seem to show appreciation for things. Even something as simple as a “thank you” rarely left her mouth. When we went out for ice cream she would be quick to order for HER ice cream and pay for what SHE wanted vs. asking me what I would like despite the fact that I would pay for dinners or other random things. I tried to indicate to her that she had to start chipping in for little things but she never got the message. The biggest thing that bugged me was she would never have actual cash with her so if she did want to buy something she had to stop to take money out.

If you are a girl reading this, I think the key is to show you appreciate the guy. Thank him, maybe buy a coffee/tea/drink/dessert from time to time, cook him dinner (she said she was going to cook me dinner but never took initiative to actually do it).

In my gut, I always felt unappreciated and somewhat taken advantage of (even though I voiced my concerns she didn’t change much). I think that caused me to be very hesitant in seeing a future with her because I couldn’t see myself married to someone like that. Even my female friends were treating me nicer than this girl I was dating. My friends bought be more thoughtful birthday gifts than her, would be more interested in my day/to day life, etc. I don’t really get it, I guess some girls do feel entitled or something. Or maybe she just enjoyed doing “fun” things…. I am hoping that I act on the signs quicker next time around and meet a “nice” girl.

I don’t know how old these posts are, but, David, if you ever decide to come back, please update with how things are now. Even though I am realizing a lot of negative things about this recent girlfriend (if she is even worthy of being called that), it still hurts…
jj 284

My woman runs hot and cold. Sometimes, she wants to be treated, and other times she wants to pay. Since I make a more than she does, I’m fine with whatever, as long as it’s not like I’m being drained of money. If I made more, she’d spend more, LOL. As long as I can put some away for retirement, it’s all fine.
NonExist 285

My preference is that the woman and I go dutch or 50/50 until we decide that we want to be exclusive or not.
And then after that we can go more on flow.
Now where I live this is considered cheap to most of the women I meet so after adopting that rule I got less dates.
But I feel better splitting it because of the principle.

Mainly because my generosity is reserved for those whose actions have proven they deserve it. And if we agree to a relationship by that time I will know.
JayRock 286

I know I’ll probably catch some heat for saying this, but it sounds like this woman, David’s ex-girlfriend, has some self worth issues. It’s sounds like the only way that she can validate her own self worth is through how much men are willing to pay for her in a relationship. The very fact that she thought that this is what an “adult relationship” looks like also seems to present an immature outlook on relationships in general. I dated someone for two years (we’re just friends now) and even though I paid for most of the meals I did so not out of expecting something in return or because it was the socially perseved “thing to do”, but because I simply wanted to. And whenever she wanted to pay for something I had no problem with it. Money or splitting the bill just wasn’t that important to me. I just liked being in her company. How much you spend on someone should never delineate to how much you care for them. Maybe I’m being a little judgemental but I think that this woman really needs to do some soul searching and to create some realistic standards for herself before she goes back out into the dating scene.
Heather 287

I like that my man pays for the dates, and does stuff but I happily offer to pay and treat him just as well. I may not have as much as he does, financially but I offer what I can. A relationship isn’t a one way street. Also, the old days are gone, and while it’s wonderful to have someone wanting to always pick up the tab, you should be willing to offer if anything. Most guys will shoot you down if you offer to pay.

I just wish the old courtesies of holding a door open for a lady. (My man does, but I’m just saying a lot don’t anymore from my observations).
kash 288

I think if a man does not have a lot of money he should not take a woman to the expensive restaurant, after all what matters is time spent together not a place. Be inventive, make some sandwiches, bottle of wine and have a picnic, take her for a walk and grab sth small to eat when you get hungry etc…. If expensive dinners are the only things to offer that means maybe that man does not think he is good enough. Not all WOMEN need to go to the expensive restaurant, most of us would love to do sth different, and doing active things together are better fun and better bonding opportunities. YEs men should pay for a date – but believe me most women dont expect to do expensive nights out! Be inventive that will make a woman think that her life with you will not be boring!!!! And if she cannot appreciate simple dates with the sandwiches then maybe she is not a woman for you, simple as that.
D 289

I think that paying on the first and second, possibly third date, shows generosity and care about the girl, rather than wimpy stinginess. If men often are “in the moment” and don’t verbally express interest and investment, it shows me they don’t care about me AT ALL if they don’t offer to pay on these dates. I think very often women don’t know their worth and, unfortunately, in my experience I worried and shvitzed about not ordering the expensive thing on the menu, fake offering or real offering to pay, if we get drinks or dessert that I suggest afterward offering to pay and actually paying for that… and all this worry didn’t do me any good. I concentrated less on whether the guy actually valued me in any way.
If you don’t have a lot of money, pick a restaurant or venue that is not very expensive, but still cool. There are a lot of those in cities. You know that Hindu temple where you can get a dosa that is pretty cheap? Or the new, hip ramen or taco place? Create a cheaper date. You don’t have to spend 200 bucks. Or, if the girl spends the weekend, don’t get brunch.
I think after the fourth or fifth date, it’s okay to split. And the girl should seriously offer. It kind of sucks when she doesn’t. Patti Stanger encourages women to at least cook a meal or invite to an event or somehow show non-monetary appreciation, but in my experience, flashing my credit card has been a boner-killer..
D 290

Ron Diggity, I think you are the same guy who lambasts women if they “reward” a man with sex too early. Are you not? So how is dating not legal prostitution if you decide to keep those gender roles intact? If she is too easy to get, then it’s not worth the monetary/temporal challenge right?
The thing is, yes, both women and men have different needs and are guilty of wanting contradictory things. For instance, the virgin/whore dichotomy, the woman has to be attractive, but not be distracted by other men, a lady on the street, but a freak in the bed, but not too freaky, she has to give up sex or the investment isn’t worth it, but not be too hard to get. A woman claims to want a nice, intelligent, normal guy but is really, really attracted to a brash, confident, a-holey, challenging man in a way that might even piss her off.
And just the same, a woman wants to be treated like an equal member of society not a girly child/sexy jezebel, but at the same time wants a man that will show her he values her in a masculine way. And that means paying for meals and, depending on the woman, opening the door, and such things.
I think that, and this bugs me, dating is about exchange of value. You want to create a shared bond that you mutually value. So you invest something, tangible and intangible. Having sex too soon might jeopardize the bond that the woman was trying to create with you. Have sex too late and you will say “I invested money” (and guess what, if you aren’t spending money, you will still complain about the wasted TIME) “or all that time I could have had another piece on the side.” Either way, a woman could get seriously hurt. So I think, if she’s been agreeing to see you and you’ve been the one initiating all the dates, that is also something, if you are the one in the driver’s seat as far as continuing the relationship, this is another exchange. If she is agreeing to date you and appears invested and interested, that means she probably wants to build something more. So I think with women there is that dichotomy, we immediately have more to lose because, if we want you around, we want to build something.

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I Make $40K And My Girlfriend Never Offers To Pay For Anything

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