I Tried Your Advice on Mirroring, Evan, and It Didn’t Work. What Am I Missing Here?
Pages: 1 2
Hi Evan, First I wanted to say that I am really enjoying Finding the One Online. I am very glad I invested in it and I look forward to applying what I have learned going forward. Please forgive the bad paraphrasing, but you have said that women need to stop analyzing a guy’s behavior because men reveal themselves in their actions. I agree with you and recently have made every effort to apply this to my life. Recently, (applying more of your lessons) I “opened up” to a guy on Match that I might not have in the past. The first week we started seeing each other, everything he did demonstrated his interest (i.e. he called every day, he asked me out, etc.) But, after a week or so we hit a rough spot.
For example, he “forgot” that we had plans one evening and went to a friend’s house instead. He called on his way home from the friend’s house but didn’t call back that evening when he said he would. So, I called him and left a message. I heard back from him the next day. I casually asked what had happened to our date the night before. He apologized profusely telling me he forgot. I told him it was fine and that we could get together another time. He called the next day, but didn’t ask me out for the upcoming weekend.
Then, I heard nothing from him for 5 days. After several days went by I assumed he met someone else and was no longer interested. Then he sent a text saying that things “must be over for us because when I don’t call, I don’t hear from you.” To say I was perplexed is an understatement.
If this was the first time this had happened to me I would have thought it was the individual, but even my daughter has said she has had this same problem with guys. We have both experienced a guy’s chiding for not actively pursuing them. I’m talking about the first few weeks of getting to know each other, not an established relationship. Why would a guy conclude that a woman is not interested if they haven’t taken the time to call for days or asked us out?
What gives here? I thought I was applying what you had taught us, that guys reveal themselves in their actions and our job is to “mirror” their effort. So, when I don’t hear from a guy for a week I don’t think I need to call and find out why he isn’t calling. Instead, I assume he is no longer interested. Did someone change the courtship rules while I wasn’t looking? Or, am I incorrectly applying what you have taught?
Alisa
Why would a guy conclude that a woman is not interested if they haven’t taken the time to call for days or asked us out? What gives here?
Dear Alisa,
Let’s say you wanted to lose 10lbs. You’ve read every diet book and every woman’s magazine under the sun and conclude that the simplest way to go about this would be to: eat smaller portions, eat healthier foods, and get to the gym three times a week for cardio. You do exactly that. For one month, you’re a dieting machine (with the occasional dark chocolate and red wine indulgence, of course.) To measure your progress, you get on the scale. You weigh the exact same thing that you did four weeks ago. Does this mean that you SHOULDN’T eat smaller, healthier portions and hit the treadmill regularly? Of course not. It might mean that there’s something else you can tweak, but the basic principles of dieting remain true, regardless of their results.
Continued on next page >>
Related Posts:
- I Am Falling In Love With a Man Who Is Finalizing His Divorce. Should I Back Off or Can This Work Out?
- Why Does My Older Boyfriend Kick Me Out Before His Kids Wake Up? Give Me Some Relationship Advice!
- Dating Advice: I Like Nerdy Guys, But They Don’t Like Me.
- Relationship Advice: My Girlfriend Wants to Get Married, But I’ll Lose My Health Insurance. What Do I Do?
- Evan Marc Katz on the Radio Tonight
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
67 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice
Peggy 1
Ouch Evan. you use the term feminine (in guys) like it’s an insult associating the term with lazy/afraid. There was one post i really liked of yours – Marlboro Man vs Sensitive Artist (or something like that). Wouldn’t this be a case of that? If you want the sensitivity, the understanding, the catering to everything a woman wants type, the flip side is he will probably be less brash, cocky, and forward. If she likes this guy enough to work with him and readjust her tactics, ok. If she doesn’t, then your one-size fits-all approach won’t likely work with this champ and that’s ok. She can find someone else who does if that’s what she wants. That’s all
Steve 2
Alisa;
Your email is actually a validation of Evan’s advice.
Your email just illustrates a case of a guy who is not interested acting like he is not interested.
People ( men AND women ) say all sorts of things they don’t mean in the dating arena. They are playing games, they are unsure of what they want, etc.. What matters is what they do.
Kristyn 3
I don’t think I’ve told you, Evan, but I seriously love your advice. Witty, fun, and spot on! I think this is going to be one of my favorites, one I’ll come back to and read to remind myself that I can let him be the one to contact me and not vice versa.
Karl R 4
Provided that Alisa was responding to any one-way communications (e-mails, texts, voice mails), then the man didn’t have any reason to stop contacting her.
However, if a woman fails to respond to two consecutive one-way communications (early in the relationship), then I take it as a strong hint that she’s not interested.
Evan said:
“I dated my wife for a year and a half before proposing and I don’t think she initiated contact with me once in that time. It’s [...] It’s because she knew that if I wanted to talk to her, I’d call her.”
I don’t believe mirroring has to go quite that far. As long as a guy is initiating calls at least half the time, I’d say that the woman is “mirroring” his behavior, not pursuing.
That said, in Alisa’s case I would say it was definitely the man’s responsibility to make the effort after “forgetting” a date.
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 5
I agree with Evan’s advice here that it is best for women to stay receptive to men pursuing and for Alisa to be careful not to pursue him more than he is pursuing her.
And I think Seductress has got it spot on, I agree this being the wrong guy in many levels. Very insightful answer!
.-= Mikko Kemppe – Relationship Coach’s last blog ….Mikko, How Do I Know Where I Stand With This Girl? =-.
Seductress 6
“I casually asked what had happened to our date the night before. He apologized profusely telling me he forgot.”
I doubt he forgot….if he did, wow, I can’t imagine he was very excited about this woman, to forget his date with her, come on.
“I told him it was fine and that we could get together another time. He called the next day, but didn’t ask me out for the upcoming weekend.”
Not asking her out again further supports that he didn’t really forget the other date. If he is truly interested in her, he would have been mortified about standing her up and in a hurry to make it up to her.
“I heard nothing from him for 5 days….he sent a text saying that things must be over for us because when I don’t call, I don’t hear from you.”
Game player, now he wants to blame her because she’s not pursuing him enough?
The OP shouldn’t second guess herself. This is not a case of mirroring gone bad, this is a case of the wrong guy on so many levels.
.-= Seductress’s last blog ….Try Speed Dating! =-.
Steve 7
Peggy Aug 6th 2009 at 06:27
Ouch Evan. you use the term feminine (in guys) like it’s an insult associating the term with lazy/afraid
I was raised on the Marlo Thomas “Free To Be You And Me” crap when I was a kid. I became a lot happier( and better with women) when I started looking at what people actually do and what actually works with them.
Joe 8
You weigh the exact same thing that you did four weeks ago. Does this mean that you SHOULDN’T eat smaller, healthier portions and hit the treadmill regularly?
No, it means you’ve lost fat and gained muscle tissue. :-p
Aguy 9
you’ll be free to find a man who actually knows that it’s his role to pursue you.
COME ON! Absolutely archaic thinking, if I have to do ALL the contacting, planning and paying and the woman don’t do anything then dating her becomes WORK. I prefer dating to be pleasure for both parties.
Further, if she don’t do anything about contacting me, or subtly suggesting a date. I’ll extrapolate how her don’t do anything attitude will play out in other areas life ie: in being planning a vacation she probably don’t do anything, in bed she probably don’t do anything.
Those first several contacts and dates are crucial, I only have a few e-mails, calls and dates to figure out whether to stay involved or move on, so everything she does is really looked at.
If I’m dating a couple women and really prefer to date only one, all things being equal, the one who expresses some interest in me will get my interest in return.
Honey 10
How how do you “mirror” a text like that?
.-= Honey’s last blog ….Seducing A Sagittarius Is A Big Pain In My Ass =-.
WithLove 11
Wow, this is an interesting topic. I totally agree with Seductress. This is definitely a “game player”. Ambivolent man syndrome. It’s interesting on askmen.com they talk about quite the opposite in some of their advice columns. They are trying to turn the tables and do exactly what this “guy” was doing to Alisa. Well, come on aren’t ya gonna chase me??? Well, what is going to happen if both sexes start to play this game? If Masculine or feminine energy men do this as well as women with masculine or feminine energy we are going to have alot of stuck single people out there. With mirroring who starts the pace or becomes the lead sort to speak? Again, I guess depending on your choice of Masculine or Feminine energy. Alisa, let this one go….on to the next one…wish you the best my dear! Hang in there it’s gonna be a bumpy ride….but like Evan, you can and will find your love, never give up Hope! =D
Ruby 12
I am with #5 Seductress on this one. A guy who’s truly interested doesn’t “forget” a date. (I wonder who the “friend” was). Why tell a man that is acceptable behavior? I’m all for playing it a bit cool in the beginning, but I would have expressed some hesitancy about seeing this man again. I would have – coolly, not angrily – called him on it. And then, 5 days later, he has the nerve to blame the LW for not calling HIM via text message, when he didn’t even attempt to reschedule right away? Doesn’t sound like a man who is very interested in getting a budding relationship off the ground. Just because a man says you should call or pursue doesn’t mean you should listen. He is either lazy or the dreaded “he’s just not that into you”. This isn’t about mirroring, it’s about not accepting inconsiderate behavior.
Ruby 13
#9 Aguy
The LW DID return the man’s calls. She was ready and willing to go out with him again. He stood her up – it is up to him to reschedule the date. We are talking about common courtesy here.
JuJu 14
Not calling a guy for a year and a half is more than a bit excessive… Not to mention, passive as hell. Sometimes I want to talk when it’s convenient for me, when it generally works for me, and not wait around until the guy deigns to call. Besides, occasionally stuff happens that I might want to discuss immediately. If we’ve been dating a while, obviously we are close.
As for this letter, I am also inclined to think that the getting offended by her not calling him was an act, an excuse he made up for his own behavior (perhaps because otherwise it’s just way too weird). Everything she describes points to him having met someone else.
JuJu 15
Btw, I am sure what’s additionally ticking this woman off is that this was the kind of guy to whom she, admittedly, wouldn’t normally give the time of day.
Lance 16
If he misses a date entirely, he’s a d-bag. Even the most playerish of players won’t commit that foul. At least I wouldn’t.
I understand Aguy’s frustration in #9 above. The first couple of dates are always volatile and it takes a lot of energy to constantly be the chaser. I understand it’s my role and I relish it, but it’s also nice to be appreciated and get an honest effort in return. My chief complaint about women in early dating phases is that they don’t do anything to advance the connection…they simply wait around for things to happen. They wait for you to make that spark happen. They’re takers. And if nothing happens, they say they either didn’t have chemistry or the guy was a player.
Eventually, you run out of energy, and as Aguy stated, if I’m dating a couple of chicks at once, I’ll choose the one putting in the same energy as I am.
My perspective is that the early dating phase is a mutual seduction. You both make moves together. She has to realize that she’s negotiating to get him also.
.-= Lance’s last blog ….Seducing A Sagittarius Is A Big Pain In My Ass =-.
vino 17
Hmmm. Time for some cold analysis.
I think the guy in OP’s letter immediately relegated her to bullpen status for whatever reason. It sounds like he had other options he’d prefer to focus on, but trying to keep the OP warming up in the bullpen if necessary.
Bad baseball analogy, but it does work.
And I’ll second (or is that third?) AGUY #9 and Lance #16. Everyone should read those posts, then re-read them.
starthrower68 18
To Aguy #9,
I think you’re missing the point; a woman wants to be courted and pursued. She wants to be “won”. Now, I could see when the relationship has gone on a while and both people feel comfortable with more initiation on her part, then that’s one thing. But while a man is deciding what his intentions are in regards to a woman, he should be doing the initiating at first. If that’s “work” for you, then how truly interested are you in a woman to begin with?
starthrower68 19
Lance,
We are just damned if we do and damned if we don’t, aren’t we?
Seductress 20
I believe women should pursue but in a different way.
If she is sincerely interested in the man, she needs to give him all the green lights IN PERSON, show she’s happy to hear from him when he calls, give positive body language, eye contact, flirting, showing genuine appreciation for the date he’s taken her on, compliment him, tell him straight out how much she enjoys her time together and when he suggests getting together in the future tell him how much she’d like and look forward to that.
That isn’t ‘doin’ nothin’ as AGUY #9 suggests.
It’s leaving the active pursuit to the man as Evan suggests and the sublte pursuit to the woman.
If a man really likes a woman and he feels like he’s winning, appreciated, desired when he’s with her on the phone or in person, he won’t whine and say “why don’t you ever call me first…..”
.-= Seductress’s last blog ….Try Speed Dating! =-.
AJ 21
Evan your response is SO SPOT ON. What we women have to remember is that men will generelly say stuff like this when they really are not interested. I am not sure why. Maybe to see if they can get you on the cheap?????? However, actions speaks louder than words and this guy’s actions couldn’t get any louder.
AJ 22
Evan your response is SO SPOT ON. What we women have to remember is that men will generelly say stuff like this when they really are not interested. I am not sure why. Maybe to see if they can get you on the cheap?????? However, actions speak louder than words and this guy’s actions couldn’t get any louder
Barb 23
It’s clear he’s not interested (enough). No man would forget he was going to see you! After such a blatant sign of disinterest, you responded very forgiving and nice. You gave him the message that you can be treated that way. And now he did it again. He covered up his disinterest by telling you a story “that he thought you weren’t interested in him”. Why did he do that? Because from the previous experience with you he thought you would fall for it and be nice and forgiving. Why did he contact you again? In my opinion to have someone on the back burner until the real deal comes around. He’s probably not a bad guy but he’s not interested enough in you. If you start being puzzled by a man’s words, it usually means he’s not showing the actions that come with a man that’s truly interested in you. Please take note of that. The right response, loose interest. We’re not going to be the one for everyone, not even Angelina Jolie. Don’t believe that the chase has to be mutual. Some men think that is true until they meet a woman they truly fall in love with and no effort will be too big. Why settle for less than a man who’s truly crazy about you?
casualencounters.com/blog 24
True. You usually need a decent sample size before you decide that anything is bad advice. Unless a reasonable consequence of taking the advice in question is auto-deleterious. In which case change tack after the first near miss.
.-= casualencounters.com/blog’s last blog ….PlentyOfFish review =-.
BeenThruTheWars 25
When a man is interested, HE does the pursuing. When he’s not, he doesn’t. This guy didn’t. Next!
When a man finds “the one,” he doesn’t care if “doing all the work is archaic” or not. He doesn’t think about “rules.” He isn’t interested in games. He just knows he wants to be with that woman and will work as hard as he needs to to get her for himself. It’s in a masculine man’s nature. A guy who is “lazy” with one woman will be all over another one because her, he wants! I’ve seen it over and over.
My husband let the girls and women he dated do most of the chasing — then ran away when they got too interested. Then he met me. Like Evan’s wife, I never initiated contact once during our 6-month courtship leading up to our engagement, except to break our second date because I was sick. Think that deterred him? Ha. He said, “Sorry you’re feeling under the weather, what about next Saturday night?” without taking a breath. I never contacted him because I didn’t have to. I always knew where I stood with him because he told me, and showed me. He never once asked an idiot question like, “How come you don’t call me?” He called me and had no expectations of it being reciprocal. To paraphrase author Greg Behrendt, “This is what it looks like” when a man is truly interested. Anything else is just conversation.
Lulubell 26
Quite an interesting topic! This guy just wasn’t interested enough, and she let him off the hook too easily for standing her up! But…usually I agree completely with Evan, and here I just don’t see how it would be realistic for me to be with a man and NEVER initiate a call for over a year. When I first read Evan’s original post about “mirroring,” I thought he meant that once a man was calling regularly, that it would be reasonable to do the same thing. (To mirror that action.) That’s what friends do, right? Don’t we also want to be friends with a romantic partner? And… I think this is important, I only call for a reason, with something specific to talk about, or maybe an invitation, which is how I treat my girlfriends. I believe in fair play, so I WILL get concert or theater tickets, and I confirm details before making the purchase, so I will pick up the phone and make the call. I want a man to pursue me, for sure, but I don’t want to take advantage of him, and if he’s treating me well, then I will do the same. Doesn’t that just make for a balanced partnership where both people feel appreciated and respected? That’s what I want. Actually, I won’t accept less.
Jennifer 27
I think this statement from Barb #23 has a lot of truth in it:
…until they meet a woman they truly fall in love with and no effort will be too big.
People tend to have lots of theories about what they would or wouldn’t do in various situations, but when you meet the right person (or at least what you believe is the right person) people tend to get quite surprised at how many of their rules get thrown out of the window.
downtowngal 28
This guy sounds like an immature game-playing jerk. Move on!
This isn’t the first time Evan’s given the same advice to women. A guy who’s into you would never not call then break up with you via txt by claiming it’s your fault. What a d-bag.
JuJu 29
I am sorry, but is this the emperor’s new clothes? :-
Sam 30
I’ve got a question for Evan & anyone else who wants to answer, does mirroring work for men?
I contact girls online and often the response I get had a whole lot less effort put into it than my email to her had. If her response to me is a fifth as long as my response to her, should I write her a short email too or just give up? If she takes five days to write back to me, should I take five days to write back to her or not give up entirely?
Ruby 31
“He called on his way home from the friend’s house but didn’t call back that evening when he said he would. So, I called him and left a message.”
Again, give the man a chance to do what he says he’s going to do. This is something I have struggled with, because I’m a proactive person and it’s hard for me not to push or sit back and wait sometimes. But I’ve learned that the more effort I have to make, the less likely it is that the relationship will succeed. Men, like the ones on this blog, always say that want a woman to be aggressive, but when we are, it doesn’t work. Men who are interested show it.
EMK, wow, your wife-to-be showed tremendous restraint while you were dating, to never have initiated one call over all that time! Either that, or you must have constantly stepped up and never missed a beat!
FrogPrincess 32
Been Through the Wars (25) is so spot on! I love the example and it’s SO true.
Guys say all kinds of things. They have all kinds of “rules” and requirements, but the minute they meet a girl they really, really, REALLY want, it’s all out the window.
My dad never really talked about the women he dated before my mother, but he did say that he would ONLY date tall, blond women. Every woman he met he judged by an impossible set of requirements that fit his fantasy of the perfect woman. Then he met my mother and he was a goner. My mother is 4’11″ and dark, but my dad is as crazy about her 37 years later as he was the day he met her. Maybe more so.
Ok, it’s not the same as mirroring, but I also know SHE DIDN’T CALL HIM!!! He did all the persuing. Granted that was another age, but men haven’t really changed all that much. At the end of the day, if a man truly likes a woman, he will do just about ANYTHING to be with her. He will call her, he will set up dates as soon as he can, he will persue her like mad and she doesn’t need to do anything. A few thousand years of evolution really hasn’t changed the male instinct for hunting or the female desire for persuit. That’s just the way we roll.
The key, as a modern woman, is to remember that and not drive yourself up the wall trying to figure out how to get some guy to like you and commit to you. If he’s the right guy, you won’t have to.
.-= FrogPrincess’s last blog ….Day of the D-Bags =-.
BobGuy 33
I agree with the guys. I’m a very busy man (a physician), and interested in several women. The woman who actively expresses interest by taking the initiative will get my attention (and dates) more than the passive (or mirroring) woman.
Jennifer 34
I tend to think that men that are more interested in getting laid than anything else like it when women are aggressive.
I’ve observed that men that are interested in getting to know women to see if there is a possible fit for a relationship prefer women to be receptive (as in obviously receptive to their advances, not coy to the point of madness) and assertive when appropriate (as in when going along with plans or something she doesn’t like would cause her to show resentment towards him later, just saying no at the outset).
No one wants to feel that their advances are unwanted or like they are bothering someone and at the same time, no one wants to feel like you always beat them to the punch.
I agree with Evan that women should let him take the lead with making plans and contact in the beginning, and I agree with Seductress that when he does, women should let him know that she is happy that he did! (if that is indeed the case)
Acting totally reserved and uninterested until some imaginary milestone has been reached just means that at some point in the future, she’s going to start acting like a whole different person. And who likes that?
In the OP’s case, I think the guy pulled quite a punk move but if she felt compelled to respond she could’ve said ‘oh really, i just figured you were busy. how’s your week been?’ throwing the ball back in his court and seeing what he does. If he doesn’t play, he just doesn’t play. But if I were her I think i would’ve just taken my ball and gone home.
Diana 35
I think my response would have been different. When the guy didn’t call later that evening as he said he would, I would not have left him a message. While he voluntarily called on his way home from his friend’s house, she doesn’t mention that he apologized and explained his forgetfulness until after he responded to her message. At the least, he should have shared this during that first call heading home. I think he would not have even called her a second time, if not for her message the next day.
Putting curiosity aside, his actions: the forgotten date, lagging phone contact, and no desire to reschedule showed that the date meant little to him, so why bother asking what happened. Who cares. He didn’t deserve her further attention.
I am glad she didn’t continue to call him. This would have left no doubt in his mind that his earlier behavior was acceptable. Perhaps it was his ego that made him feel that she should be willing to chase him. I wonder about this because of how she commented that she opened up to someone she might not would have in the past. Whatever his thinking, it sounds like a “tit for tat” approach or someone intentionally playing games and that’s juvenile.
Evan is right about tweaking our experiences, of course, rather than throwing out the basic principle. And while it’s frustrating and perplexing as always, we DO learn, even when “there’s nothing to learn.”
Good luck.
Mr_Right 36
I think a interesting topic for discussion would be when advice conflicts. For example, Evan says to women, let men make the first move, and mirror their interest. While I have seen other dating advice coaches (for men) say to let women make the first move because it shows that they’re interested, and you only want to date the women who ARE interested.
You know, it might delve down into the level of control and choice. If we have someone who is really interested in us, we have the control in the relationship, and we have the choice whether to keep the relationship going or not. I would think that both men and women want that in their relationship, that control and the choice.
Can anybody also suggest any other situations where you would get conflicting advice? Perhaps on how soon you should call after a first date, or if you should call at all after a first date or leave it to the other person. Evan, do you have any clients who come to you with conflicting advice given by other people that would go against what you’re saying?
Heck, sometimes you should just throw the rules of dating out the window and just go for it. :p
A-L 37
As far as the OP goes, everyone’s pretty spot on that the guy was a complete tool and that she’s well rid of him.
But as far as the issue of mirroring goes, it’s generally worked for me. But I don’t take it to the extremes that some do (18 months without calling you!!!). For instance, if we’ve already had 2-3 dates and I see an e-mail about an interesting event, I might forward it on to see if he’d like to go.
It may also be a regional thing. Down in the south there are a lot of guys who expect to do the pursuing and find it disturbing if that’s not the case. And almost invariably they will NOT allow a woman to pay. I’m thinking maybe about 5-10% of the guys have let me pick up any kind of meal (and some of those guys only let me pay for after-dinner ice cream). Perhaps in more “modern” places that’s not that case, and guys are more willing to be pursued. But I doubt it. I think if they were really into you, they’d be doing all of the chasing.
FrogPrincess 38
I agree with Jennifer’s comment: “I tend to think that men that are more interested in getting laid than anything else like it when women are aggressive. I’ve observed that men that are interested in getting to know women to see if there is a possible fit for a relationship prefer women to be receptive…”
That’s definitely been my experience. Men that haven’t a) taken the time to get to know me and b) have wanted me to be the agressor (make all the plans, contact them first, etc) have been interested in only one thing: an easy lay. When they didn’t get it, they moved on very quickly. Those who have persued me and have been interested in actually getting to know me as a person, seemed to be more interested in a relationship, even if ultimately it wasn’t me they wanted for that relationship.
My girl friends who are very out there and agressive, making the first move and calling and what not get loads of guys. And I mean LOADS of guys. Unfortunately those guys are only interested in sex, nothing else, and often treat my friends with little or no respect. My friends that allow men to persue them (and trust me, these women are not “passive” in any way, as some guys on this site are labelling women who mirror) tend to attract men who are serious about wanting a real relationship. Using lack of time as an excuse is a total cop-out. If you really want something, you make time.
.-= FrogPrincess’s last blog ….Day of the D-Bags =-.
zann 39
I think the key point here is to reasonably apply the principle. There are always going to be exceptions to any rule or situation, but overall the mirroring concept is one that works for me. I’ve proven to myself over & over again (I can be very dense sometimes) that if I pursue instead of mirroring his behavior, that’s the pattern that will continue and will be what’s required to keep the relationship — lame as it may be — alive. Relationships that have been successful for me have been the result of the guy being proactive from the start. Call it archaic, call it passive, call it whatever you want, but I’m sticking with what works. Oh yea, Key Point: that DOESN’T mean I act coy or disinterested when he pursues. I express clearly that I’m glad to hear from him, I listen to what he says & give feedback, and I don’t pick apart every suggestion he makes. I show interest & tell him I appreciate his efforts. That isn’t game playing or even a “rule,” it’s a method for successfully getting the type of relationship I want, not to mention just plain common courtesy.
Alisa, I’ve met this same guy under various names, over & over…the one who forgets dates and who basically just doesn’t do what he says he’s gonna do. My women friends and my daughter have met him, too. He defends his behavior by spinning it out like it’s somehow your fault — not calling him, playing hard to get, blah blah blah. It’s manipulation, designed to put you on the defensive & get the focus off his lazy, lousy behavior. Run in the opposite direction of this dude and don’t look back. We all deserve better.
AJ 40
Dr. Bobguy. You really have not met anyone that you are head over heels about. When you do, you will change.
Mr_Right 41
Didn’t they have a line in Ghosts of Girlfriends Past – “The power in a relationship lies with whoever cares less.” It sure seems that way in the initial stages of dating. O_o
Diana 42
To A-L #37, your mentioning that you might send an email about an interesting event reminds me of the advice from another very popular “for women” dating and relationship expert that says that guys find unpredictability highly attractive in a woman. An example that he provides is when a woman calls a guy out of the blue, or out of the norm for their situation and introduces a fun and new idea for a date. Or when he hasn’t called for a few days, rather than grilling the guy, keep the conversation light and unpredictable, like simply saying, “Hey, it’s great to hear from you. How are you doing?” This doesn’t mean she shouldn’t express her feelings later; it’s all in how and when she expresses them. The idea is that he’ll be more receptive and understanding, and he will actually open up more to her as well. Does it work? I don’t know.
I agree about the intensity of mirroring. I love the concept, but little is black and white in my mind.
Selena 43
After a few weeks of dating one man, and seeing him almost every day, he said to me one day rather woefully, “You never call me.” The reason I never called him was because he had 2, sometimes 3 jobs going on. I don’t call anyone at work unless it’s necessary – it can be construed as a nuisance. But I got his point. He was feeling I didn’t care as much as he did because I never called him. I started calling him a half hour before he left his first job thinking that would be when his work would least interrupted.
We ended up living together for years and it became a habit for us to check in with each other once or twice during the day. A habit that started when we were dating and kept us connected.
I get it about thinking your bf will call you when he wants to talk…but, I can’t imagine going for a year and a half without wanting to call and talk to my boyfriend for some reason or other myself. I’m certain actually, that the ones I was close to would have taken my never calling as a sign that I didn’t care or was mad about something. I do believe mirroring goes both ways. Particularly after a relationship has been established.
Selena 44
In Alisa’s case I agree with JuJu’s assessment #14: Every thing she describes points to him seeing someone else. Possibly a former girlfriend. Rather explains every action. Stands her up. While over at a “friend’s” house. Doesn’t call when he said he would. Doesn’t reschedule missed date. Doesn’t call for 5 days, then sends a text blaming the lack of communication on her.
I think he was fishing with the text. Since she didn’t rip him a new one for standing her up, the text was a way to test the waters regarding the possibility of keeping her for “backup” if the other woman he was involved with didn’t work out. Fits perfectly with an ex scenario.
Alisa, if you have a daughter who’s dating you need to be dating grownups yourself. This…um… person, isn’t one of them. Since he wasn’t on your A-list to begin with, you have validation about the wisdom of going with your gut feelings.
I second the poster who said this situation is not about mirroring.
Ava 45
Lance #16
“Eventually, you run out of energy, and as Aguy stated, if I’m dating a couple of chicks at once, I’ll choose the one putting in the same energy as I am.”
BobGuy #33
“The woman who actively expresses interest by taking the initiative will get my attention (and dates) more than the passive (or mirroring) woman.”
Wait, don’t you ultimately go after the woman you like best and are most attracted to? You mean to say that there isn’t a stronger feeling for one woman over the others? When I’ve dated more than one person, eventually one man stands out over the others, even if I’m not sure initially.
Anisa 46
@ A.L. # 37
“It may also be a regional thing.”
In more “modern” places there are more (many) “agressive” women. That is making de “modern” men lazy an they loose their focus. Modern women are very often in shape, goodlooking and hip and I guess that is very often enough for those lazy guys. I think they don’t know how to be choosy anymore, so they pick the girl who makes more efforts.
AJ 47
Mirroring in my mind is a way for women to see what they are getting and to not go over board, which many of us do when we meet someone we real like. It is a way to pace yourself and to get you to see clearly how he is proceeding. You see what he does and you reciprocate. After a while you began to realize whether or not the guy is seriously interested or not.
Selena 48
AJ #47
I think it’s exactly that. And I’ve been doing mirroring for decades before I ever knew it was actually a concept. If a man doesn’t call me for a week, it’s a clear indication that he’s not all that interested. That I’m “back burner” for him. Calling him every day or two isn’t going to change that.
If I were a guy and a woman took 5 days to return my call, I’d conclude the same thing. It’s a bit like a tennis match to begin with. You lob the ball over and see if it is returned. If the other person isn’t interested enough to lob the ball back you, go find someone else to play with.
isabelle_archer 49
What? 1.5 years and she never called you or suggested an idea for a night out? That’s just…strange. I mean, it may have worked for you, but it’s certainly not the gold standard to me. Relationships are about companionship and communication, and if you can’t feel free to communicate when you want, if everything is a sort of stilted game, then I don’t think it’s something that would really be satisfying to me, personally.
Now, I do definitely agree with the truism that if a man is interested he’ll make an effort and you won’t have to wonder about his intentions — at the beginning. But once you get into a groove with each other, you’re just in a groove, and who’s keeping score about who called whom at that point?
And I’d also warn the ladies that taking this “mirroring” concept too literally can actually sabotage things at the beginning. If you don’t communicate that you’re interested in the guy somehow (verbally or non), he won’t pursue you. BOTH parties have to stick their necks out a little and show that they like each other. Letting the guy take the lead on the formal stuff — like asking for dates — does not let you off the hook. No man is going to pursue a woman who’s giving off “stay away” signals, and I know from personal experience that trying to hard to passively “mirror” a guy’s interest level can end up making a girl seem so cautious that the guy assumes she’s not interested.
jneil 50
The guy in this scenario has committed a number of serious goofs that make him not worth pursuing at all.
But leaving that guy out of things totally, i.e., dealing with this subject in a general way, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything that seemed more representative of my thinking and those of a group of 40 and 50 something guys that I know, than the following from #9 above. For me and my peers, a woman who understands the philosophy expressed there has a 45 yard lead in the 50 yard dash, as compared to those that don’t.
“…COME ON! Absolutely archaic thinking, if I have to do ALL the contacting, planning and paying and the woman don’t do anything then dating her becomes WORK. I prefer dating to be pleasure for both parties.
Further, if she don’t do anything about contacting me, or subtly suggesting a date. I’ll extrapolate how her don’t do anything attitude will play out in other areas life ie: in being planning a vacation she probably don’t do anything, in bed she probably don’t do anything.
starthrower68 51
Jneil,
Yes, you point out some major issues there. I’ve been corresponding with a fellow who thinks I should do all the initiating and travel to him but he insists he will be in control of the relationship. He can take it or leave it. That tells me all I need to know and for once, I’m going to be a smart girl and not ignore that red flag. I think it’s high time to cut this loose and move on. I’m worth a lot more than that, and I’ll hold out for the guy who recognizes it. I’m grateful this post is here because something was not setting well with me about that situation and there’s a reason it wasn’t.
Aguy 52
To starthrower #18
She wants to be won….If that’s work for you, then how truly interested are you in a woman to begin with?
I’m absolutely interested in a woman who’s open to a relationship of complimenting people, where we are equally mature and no one is treated as a prize to be won.
To Ava #45
Wait, don’t you ultimately go after the woman you like best and are most attracted to? You mean to say that there isn’t a stronger feeling for one woman over the others?
Sure, I may prefer woman A over woman B, but when I weigh in that it’ll probably take 6 months for woman A to reciprocate my level of interest vs. 2 months for woman B. Woman B starts to look a whole lot better. I am not talking solely about being intimate either. Please understand I’m mid 50s, divorced and date women of a similar age. To me time is the most valuable thing I have.
downtowngal 53
Sam #30, to answer your questions – first of all, when you email women, are they longer than a paragraph? Or are they brief and specific about someting in her profile?
I ask because I’ve received emails from guys that have been doctoral essays. And I’m not a huge email writer, especially after having been on the computer all day @ work. So if I’m into the guy and his email is very long, I’ll respond briefly.
But if your messages are brief and thoughful, and her’s no more “ok, what’s up with you”, then that might be a sign.
re: timing, she may take a while to respond initially because she’s on vacation, or maybe her company blocks personal email, but if it’s chronic (one day for you, 5 days for her), then that could be a sign.
And the poster who asked for how long to wait to call a girl, if you like her, call her the next day, definitely don’t wait. In my experience, a guy who’s into me will call the next day. If he waits longer than a few days, I take it he’s not serious about a relationship or that he’s playing games (and all of my past relationships have started out w the guy calling the next day). Any woman who takes this as an act of despiration is either not that into you or not looking for a serious relationship.
Selena 54
I agree with downtowngirl. My experience has also been the same: anyone who was really interested me always called the next day. When a man waits several days to call, a week, it’s always been an indication that he was just looking for something very casual. Perhaps a booty call.
AJ 55
Wow so many assumptions here. I don’t rush and call anyone right away. I do not give out my number, as single Mom, I do the calling and initially block my number the first time. Depending on how much information they give and how safe I feel, and with interest, I give out my number. Hell I am busy, I don’t even go online everyday. Hopefully, there are men out there that realize this and do not think I am not interested if I do not respond immediately. I do have friends that spend large amounts of time online, daily. Not me. Maybe I will have to find my guy the old fashion way. These comments have given me alot to think about.
downtowngal 56
AJ, we were discussing a guy’s follow up after a first date, rather than whether or how soon you should give your number. Your concerns are legitimate and shared by many women.
Actually, when it comes to online dating, I’ve found many guys to be respectful, giving me their #’s first then asking me for mine, saying they can call me if I feel more comfortable, but either way would like to take the connection further. Or if you explain that you would prefer to make the initial call, the good guys wouldn’t take this as a turn-off, then you can explan your situation once you speak w them and feel more comfortable.
AJ 57
But it seemed like people were making assumptions based on he initial response time. A few days and you were’t viewed as serious.
Selena 58
AJ,
I was speaking of AFTER a date. With online dating, who would you consider to be most interested in you? The guy who emails you back promptly? Or the one who drops you a line after several days, a week? What if you were THE GUY doing the emailing?
Everyone gets busy from time to time, but how much effort does it take to type a few lines to someone? Personally I’d wonder if someone was too busy to shoot me a short email, how much time are they going to have to spend with me in person? And that’s the point you want to get to isn’t it? Spending time with someone in person – lol. Busy comes across as not interested enough, or perhaps not sure, if you’ve never met.
AJ 59
Selena
I guess. But for example I am going on vacation Friday for 10 days and not planning on checking emails work or otherwise. I am not taking my laptop and at most I may use the hotel’s coputer once or twice but it wont be daily. Any guys that contact during that time will assume I have no interest. The reality is I am not sure at this juncture and my interest will grow or not as I get to know you. What’s the rush? Instant gratification or move on. I think that is why online doesn’t work for most people. I can sense when I do contact some guys the resentment , now that is a turn off. I want someone who is open to the possibilities and not so quick to judge. I have guys contact me after an initial contact I made a while ago and I am cool with that. My late husband and I use to laugh about how he made quite a few attempts to date me and I did not intially respond. I was coming out of another relationship and needed some time. But when we finally came together it was great. Life is all about timing and people need to give each other some IMO.
AJ 60
I am not saying wait around but when somepne reaches out, regardless of the time. Take the time to make a honest assessment. Don’t assume
downtowngal 61
Adding to Selena’s comment, I also think that there is more vested after you meet someone. If a guy’s interested AFTER meeting you, he should follow up promptly.
Before you get to that point, I think there’s not as much you can expect, just go with your gut.
Jennifer 62
I think the beauty of it all is that people with similar preferences find each other- those who prefer faster responses end up selecting those who prefer to wait out and vice versa. So it all works out in the end.
AJ 63
Jennifer,
If it were that simple we would all be hooked up, Lol Actually complements work better when it comes to relatioships.
Jennifer 64
@AJ I know what you mean and I agree! But I’m saying that if I like a quick response guy, and I meet guy that takes a week to call me back, i’ll no longer be interested in him. Then I won’t have to struggle with him taking longer than I prefer to do things and he won’t have to deal with always feeling rushed by me, cause we won’t be dating!
The only catch is figuring out your preferences and sticking to them…I think that’s where people (myself included, in the past anyway) make things difficult for ourselves.
AJ 65
Jennifer,
I think the difficulty comes for many women with over-analyzing and investing too much feeling and emotion so early in the dating process. We tend to “fall” for guys after a few conversations and maybe one date. You cannot tell from a response time online how someone operates in their life necessarily. Case in point, I am not a fast responder online, yet I do everything else really fast ie.. walk, talk, think…etc. My friends call me speedy. I really believe that we all have to take our time, don’t get caught up and invest feeling too early, and do not make assumptions.
FEsperanza 66
Hi! I’m a little late to the discussion, but I’ve been using the mirroring technique with the guy I’m currently dating. We don’t have any major drama, but I noticed that he started to pull back some and become a little distant after a whirlwind, intense one-month courtship. He went from emailing and texting every morning, IMing throughout the day and us hanging out every weekend, to not being online and contacting me sporadically and limited contact.
I figured he must be freaking out that he’s losing his freedom and needed some space. I was freaking out inside, but I kept it in and just mirrored his actions. I didn’t initiate any contact or ask him what was going on. Finally, after five days he texted me to ask if I was distancing myself from him! I was shocked that he put our lack of contact on me!
Instead of reacting negatively, I just said responded a few hours later saying “Hey! Sorry I just got your text! How are you?” I didn’t even acknowledge his question. Now he’s contacting me on a more regular basis and he’s always online. I think by saying “Must be over” Alisa’s guy was trying to re-establish contact, but did so in a whiny and emotional way.
Ordinarily, I would have freaked out and caved in after a day or so, but I held my ground and typed up what I wanted to say, but I didn’t send it. I waiting patiently, but anxiously for him to come back around and he did. We have a good thing going, so I also took that into consideration. I’m going to keep using this mirroring concept while using my common sense. Sometimes men need ego boosts and the periodic short and sweet or maybe racy text can do that. I just won’t do it so that he’ll come to expect it.
Londongirl 67
Ah, such a timely blog Evan! I’ve had 3 good (really good) dates with a guy, but he hasn’t been in touch for 4 days. When we first started dating I stuck to the mirroring concept (even though it was killing me ha ha) and he always followed up, always text first, asked me out again. Now, we seem to have stalled. I haven’t been in touch with him since his last text – and I have always replied to his texts promptly, always showed appreciation. He might get in touch again, he might not. But I’m sticking to my guns because being the pursuer has NEVER worked for me in the past. It’s a rough ride, but I’m going to trust that if it’s right, and if he’s into me – well, he’ll be in touch. If not, then I’ll pick myself up, dust myself off and get right back out there. I’m learning so much from Evan’s blogs – to be honest, even getting to 3 dates is progress for me, so I know what I’m doing is working