If Men Like Only Hot Women, Where Does That Leave an Average Woman Like Me?
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Because that’s what men want. Plain and simple. Dating experts try to sell products by connecting with readers’ basest wishes. And for men, the holy grail is to be able to get the hot girl. What these men rarely consider is that the hot girl might also be emotionally bankrupt, unintelligent, flaky, humorless, and lack basic human empathy. These details don’t concern them. Men’s repeated refrain: “I can’t help what I’m attracted to”.
Who do we blame for this? Men, of course, but there’s more than enough responsibility to go around. After all, women buy into the Beauty Myth just as much as men do. Advertising and media saturation reinforce the image of perfect bodies and skin, and women spend thousands of dollars each year striving for an impossible standard. And to please whom? Men? Themselves? I’m not sure anyone can agree on this stuff.
And where does this realization leave you, Tia-Maria? I would say right back where you were before. Secure in who you are and who you’re not. Validated in your opinion that men are impossibly shallow. And rightfully concerned that you’re going to be overlooked.
Despite my shallow man diatribe, please bear in mind that there is a lid for every pot. Just look around. Most women don’t qualify as "hot" in the Maxim sense, and yet they still get married. The real struggle is in keeping a healthy perspective and a positive attitude until you find the right fit.
So don’t worry about what you can’t control (men); instead, take care of what you can control (yourself).
And trust that the right man will love you as you deserve to be loved.
For more commentary on shallow men, please read:
Where Are All The Emotionally Available, Mentally Healthy Men?
How Come Everyone I Want to Meet Online Isn’t Interested In Me?
Are Women More Likely Than Men to Require Chemistry To Go On A Second Date?
Online Daters Are Shallow! And Water Is Wet!
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204 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Sex
a&v 1
A thought-provoking but disheartening post, Evan. I venture to guess that even those of us a little higher on the Beauty Scale (and whatever happened to beauty being in the eye of the beholder anyway?) want to be appreciated for qualities that lie deeper than skin tissue. I also think there is a difference between who a man (or woman) wants to date and who a man (or woman) wants to marry. For example I, a reasonably intelligent and thoughtful woman, for a time dated men purely on the merits of their looks (and their ability to make me laugh).
There is a difference, I think, in what is conventionally beautiful and what each of us finds attractive. Of course we want to end up with a person who is the absolute best (in all areas) that we can attract. And it is true that women arent always as visually driven as men. To me, bald doesnt automatically equate unattractiveness, nor does a couple of extra pounds. In fact, now that Im looking for more than a cute boyfriend, I steer clear of anyone who looks like they couldve walked out of a glossy magazine ad.
I want drive, integrity, confidence, humor more than I want chiseled abs. I would hope that the person I end up with will love me for more than my long legs, ample who-know-what and blondish hair. Both of us will age and whatever good looks we started out with will changewith luck, exercise and good diet, well age like fine wine but who knows?
Perhaps this is why I am still singlehappily so, though I am fascinated by male/female interaction and am putting forth a good effort to find a partner. Foolish or not, I am holding out for one of those rare men.
chiara 2
By my experience, there are plenty of great men out there, if women would only stop being shallow and petty about tax brackets and hair gel and such. I think it’s the women looking to date outside their own leagues, who want a boyfriend they can show off, who complain the most about men’s shallowness.
I think, before anyone is honestly ready to fall in love, they themselves have to shut off that judgmental reflex inside them that cares about what it “looks like” to be with someone. Once you stop giving a damn about superficial stuff, and start paying attention to genuine measures of compatibility (like trust, comfort, mutual respect) doesn’t it seem way more likely that the “lid” is out there for your “pot”?
Ron 3
Generally speaking, I agree with Evan on this. HOWEVER, perhaps Evan has spent too much time in LA. I used to live in LA, but now live in the Midwest. I see lots of good looking guys with women that are not as attractive as them. And I live in a major city, not the sticks. So, to the woman who wrote the article, you cannot blame your appearance for your lack of results.
Now, on to a more important issue. I am sick and tired of hearing how shallow men are. Women are even more shallow in many cases. At least men can blame their shallowness about beauty on biology -something they have no control over.
But women are attracted to money and successful men. If you are famous and look like a fat pig or a dork, you’ll still get a hot girl (just look at the unattractive male celebrities with the hot blondes).
I was a very good looking guy when I was in my 20s. However, I was not financially successful. I had so many women who were interested in me until they found out I did not have a good job or much money.
Then, later, when I started to become more successful, women were suddenly interested. And I don’t mean women who wanted to marry me.
Women have the same shallow prequalifications that men do. It’s just that while men screen women out for beauty, women screen men out for their level of financial success.
To me, that’s even more shallow. After all, you cannot blame that on biology. Although, it could be an instictive desire for a woman to be attracted to men who they believe are good providers. But, most women are not going on a date hoping the guy will be their husband down the road.
Shallow, shallow, shallow ladies! Now, enough of the frickin’ male bashing. Go men!
Ron 4
chiara – love the line about the tax brackets!! You took the words right out of my mouth. Women I first meet ALWAYS ask a sneaky question upfront to get an idea of how much money I make and what I do for a living. Shallow, shallow, shallow!!!
a & v – I enjoyed reading your post, but you’ve got a lot to learn, girl! While I despise the pickup artist stuff on the market, I LOVE what one of them said (because it’s so true and hits you right between the eyes): We do NOT make a conscious decision about what or who we find attractive. It is like broccoli (my words here) — do you decide whether or not you like broccoli? Do you decide whether or not you like (such as a & v) a long-legged blonde with a nice rack and a pretty face? Versus a more down-to-earth brunette who looks like the girl next door? It is not a conscious decision of who we find attractive.
BUT, picking a guy because he has a fat bank account, a high paying job, or because he is on TV IS a conscious decision. Shallow, shallow, shallow, ladies.
As for me, I see TONS of women I find attractive. And yes, while I feel my standards are fairly high, I see them all over the place. And no, I’m not talking Playboy model types (although I wouldn’t kick any of those out for munching on Triscuits in bed). I’m talking about girl next door types.
Oh boy, can’t wait to see the male bashing posts to follow.
christine 5
hi ron,
where do you live? i’m in the chicago area.
christine
SueC 6
No bashing from me Ron. I accept men as they are. I don’t always like the way things are and end up spending time alone when I’d rather be with someone, but reality is reality. I can’t change them. And there is only so much I can change about the physical me.
I can, however, continue to become the real person that I am which makes me happier which (I think) makes me more attractive overall. It certainly makes me more confident and discerning and less likely to date just anyone. I much prefer someone with character, intelligence, integrity, humor….and, for me, height. Okay….I’m a little shallow…so shoot me. I’m tired of dancing with a guys face in my chest.
Selena 7
Men who are 5′s may only want to date women who are 10′s, but how often do they end up with them? Talking average people here, not billionaires and celebrities. Go to any Wal-Mart and you will observe most of the couples are of the same level of attractiveness– high, low, in between. So these people are finding each other somehow.
Maybe when they are unsuccessful mating with someone possessing the looks they think they “require” men (and women) find themselves settling for all the neat other stuff, like intellect, sense of humor, innate kindness and compatibility. I discovered many years ago that the more I come to care about someone, the more physically attractive they become to me–even if I thought they were just ehh…upon first meeting. This is something that just can’t be determined from a pic on a dating site.
Marissa 8
“Women I first meet ALWAYS ask a sneaky question upfront to get an idea of how much money I make and what I do for a living.”
I generally ask what a man does for a living, because what he does says a lot about him (his personality – after all, most of our lives are defined by what we do for a living, right?) I’m an attorney, by the way, so I am not really looking for a man to take care of me, but I am interested to know that he enjoys his work as much as I enjoy mine. Why is a simple “getting to know you” type question such a minefield for some men?
“BUT, picking a guy because he has a fat bank account, a high paying job, or because he is on TV IS a conscious decision. Shallow, shallow, shallow, ladies. ”
I’m not entirely sure where you live, Ron, but I don’t know any woman my age (late-20s) who does this. A lot of them are equally as successful and educated as their husbands, and make as much if not more money. Many have helped thier men through grad school and prolonged periods of unemployment, as well. That’s what a complete partnership is all about. Perhaps, instead of painiting all women with the same “shallow, shallow, shallow” brush, you should look at what kinds of women you’re attracted to and whether they truly represent the balance of the female population.
Selena 9
Ron,
I don’t care much for brocolli plain. But with cheese sauce? Yummy. Plain can have zing if you don’t dismiss it out of hand. Same with people.
BeenThruTheWars 10
Ron, I adore men, I wouldn’t bash ‘em with a gun to my head. Men are fabulous creatures. My own husband (11 years younger and a “face man” according to his long-ago fraternity brothers) told me on our second date, after I made a light but self-deprecating comment about my overweight self, “Men are all pigs, we all want to nail a supermodel. But when it comes down to who do we want to get old with, we get realistic in a hurry.” That remark turned out to be prescient in my case, at least, as six months later he proposed. Our second anniversary is New Year’s Day and we just get happier and more bonded as time goes on, even as I get commensurately further away from my perky youthful self.
Tia-Maria, here is my advice: behave “as if” you are the hottest thing on the planet. I’m not talking about being snotty, I’m talking about developing the kind of friendly poise and self-assurance you imagine a supermodel would have, greeting her fans. Don’t treat hot guys as if they are hot and should be highly sought after. Treat them with an attitude of, “Okay, big guy, show me what it is you have to offer me” — and no, I’m not talking financially, I’m talking about how will he treat me, how good of a companion will he be, how emotionally supportive will he be, etc. Remember: no matter what you look like, YOU ARE THE PRIZE. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. Repeat as necessary.
I read somewhere, “Men gather and women choose.” So true. Now, the men who gather may not be your first choice in the whatever department (looks, finances, smarts), but you weed out the unsuitable types and choose among the gems who are left. It’s so true that when a man is ready to settle down, and so much of mating IS about timing, he won’t necessarily hold out for the greatest physical prize but will marry the woman he feels he could take home to meet Mom. Whatever you have to do — a therapist, daily affirmations, self-help books — but just stay positive and DECIDE that you are “all that” and walk the walk, girl. Don’t give the “it” guys any more special treatment than you give any other guys. They will be intrigued that you aren’t all over them like the other salivating female hordes. “Why isn’t this woman knocking herself out to be with me? I must find out. Could it be she’s a cut above the rest?” Try this type of attitude adjustment… and report back in a month.
Erika 11
Hm. I make plenty of my own money–I don’t need a man for that. In fact, I shy away from guys who have all the standard “trappings” of success–wealth, cars, etc., because frankly I find them boring. I want someone who’s engaged intellectually and culturally, and when you’re too busy chasing the almighty dollar you don’t have much time to read, contemplate art, and reflect. One of the wealthier men I’d dated couldn’t handle the fact that I liked making my own decisions (and was afraid to park his car in my edgy, urban neighborhood), and the other one didn’t have anything interesting to bring to our conversational table. He told me, in fact, that he hadn’t read a book since he was 14, and I’m a librarian.
I’m not average, but I’m kind of quirky and unusual and don’t appeal to men who are threatened by a woman who speaks her mind and doesn’t pull punches. But there are a lot of men I do appeal to, and I never had problems finding dates. So my advice to Tia-Maria is this: don’t chase men who don’t want you, instead concentrate on finding the men out there who do. It may be a smaller pool, and it may take you more time and effort to find them, but there out there. You gotta keep looking! What other choice do you have?
Roger 12
Wow. This was a good discussion, both the question and the answers. Seems like everyone is at least partially right. For example, I was rather shocked after I left the college dating scene to find out just how shallow women could be when it came to how much money men earned. I actually heard female friends talking about about what kind of car a guy drives or his salary the same way guys talked about a hot women’s boobs. And as a guy who was pretty good looking, but not very financially secure, I just couldn’t believe how much my “value” went down in the eyes of women after I graduated college (I found that generally women didn’t really start focusing on the money thing until they got out of college.)
I remember how disappointing it was to find out that women really could be as shallow as men. “But men are supposed to be shallow,” I would say. “Women are supposed to be deeper!”
On the other hand, men, including me when I was younger, can be so hung up on a woman’s looks that it really is disgusting, and extremely stupid. Luckily, I found out thru trial and error, that the value I was placing on a woman’s looks was ludicrous. Not only did it make it harder for me to find someone, it also turned out that looks were just one component of many that I needed to consider when looking for a girlfriend.
The value I placed on looks had been way overstated. I dated a number of good looking women, and some average looking women, and to my astonishment, personality turned out to be far more important. I didn’t seek to come to that conclusion, I just came to that conclusion based on the reality of my experiences
So, men, give yourself a break and give the women a break. Don’t be so hung up on looks and you might actually get a few dates and find that the pool of female possibilities is enormously enriched and expanded.
Markus 13
I actually don’t think women are much more responsible for their attractions than we are. Women are conditioned by society AND evolution to find the man who will “win the game”. Not necessarily rich and greedy but, as was said, a good provider. Well, I make decent money but guess what having kids and paying child support does to you? Right. Lu-hoo-su-her. For the record, I’m 38 and in great shape. No chiseled abs but great shape. All I ask is something similar. I don’t want a playboy model. I actually like “girl next door” better but someone who’s kept their body in shape is important.
Steve 14
Evan states his opinion that dating books for men focus on getting the hottest woman, because that is what men want and that is what sells books. I happen to agree. Could it be that Evan, in this article, departed from his usual “accept the world as it is” attitude to use value judgments like “shallow” when referring to men, because he markets his material to women? Hey, we all have to make a living…..no problems there.
In my humble opinion, looks count. People who say otherwise are trying to sell something, if not to others than to themselves. Does that mean most people are shallow?
I would say a person is shallow when looks are the only thing that counts or when looks count more than other important things.
I’ve been turned down based on my looks and I am a man. I know that is sucks.
In addition to all of the men in the world who reduce women to pieces of meat there are many women who reduce men walking wallets.
Evan Marc Katz 15
“Could it be that Evan, in this article, departed from his usual accept the world as it is attitude to use value judgments like shallow when referring to men, because he markets his material to women?”
Uh, no.
I don’t market my material on this blog to anyone, Steve. I simply answer the questions that people write to me. Not surprisingly, 95% of them come from women.
Why?
Beats the shit out of me. Far as I can tell, men need more help; women ask for more help. That’s why “Why You’re Still Single” was for women. Women actually care about self-improvement. Men, in general, don’t frequent the self-help section of bookstores. Their loss.
So if you’re a man who’s reading this, and you want my blog to tackle your questions, maybe you should start asking them.
Otherwise, yeah, this is gonna be a one-stop shopping home for women who want to get smart about men and dating.
Ben 16
Men not asking questions here makes perfect sense. Men are always shy about asking for directions… or help.
In dating, “Men need more help” because women are (by necessity) generally pickier. Men’s standards are much lower, as you stated above.
Camilla 17
My way of dealing with it is to accept that most guys want 10, but also find that guys are often hard-wired to be attracted to a certain type. So I want the guys who think I’m a 10.
For instance, I’m pretty but my weight fluctuates between size 4 and 10. At size 4, I stop traffic, but even when I’m a little heaver, some guys dig that. European boyfriends in particular, hated when I got too thin. It was such a relief to know that I was still a 10 to them, even when I was worried about not being sexy–they really thought I was. So I’m more about finding that natural attraction that comes with being someone’s type.
I have one very obese friend, and she dates plenty! But she only posts ads on sites that are FOR guys looking for women who are her body type. She’s a 10 to them. Everyone’s happy.
Sam 18
I think the women here might be exaggerating male lookism and men are exaggerating women’s lust for money. Some men are still pigs and some women are still golddiffers, but overall male and female attitudes towards mate selection are converging:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19wwln_idealab.html
Ron 19
Christine – I live further south than ChiTown.
Marissa – I could argue you down and I have no legal degree. But, you helped me to decide I’ll never marry an attorney.
Markus and Steve – great posts. Markus – you hit the nail on the head. I told a psychologist friend of mine that my theory is that women are instinctively looking for a good provider and in part despise men who do not make much money because of that reason. Part of that could be argued as biology, but I’m not sure I accept the notion that it’s all biology.
Perhaps the best advice is to take Martin Luther King’s recommendation of judging people by their individual character, and not by their race, sex, etc.
I will be the first to say that I am extremely visual. I would only consider dating a woman that I (emphasis “I”) find attractive. But, my “10″ might be another man’s “7″ or “8.”
And I will add that if a woman is rude, overly materialistic, or as thick as a brick, I will write her off as quickly as I would write off a woman I find physically repulsive.
The #1 turnoff for me is rudeness. I don’t care if that person is hotter than hell. If she’s rude, I want nothing to do with her.
Now, on with the show!
Markus 20
Man, it’s cool when EMK posts. He has a frame and everything. ; )
downtowngal 21
Gimme a break, Evan, I think you’ve been living in LA for too long. And great resopnses from everone else. While most women accept that men value looks because they’re visual, at the end of the day it really depends on a woman’s confidence. And, yes, you can say the same thing about women and a guy’s earning potential (I see this in NY a lot, esp among the younger gals).
Sure guys are attracted by a woman’s looks but what one guy will consider hot another will say ‘eah’. I’ve seen this a lot. Case in point: a gal I grew up with is not what one would consider conventionally beautiful at all, yet always had a boyfriend and has been happily married for years to an attractive, smart guy. Why? Because she’s always had a good sense of herself and never seemed obsessed with looking a certain way. She was always popular and people respected her. I’ve also met women my guy friends have dated and seen photos of former boyfriends’ exes. None of these women looked like porn stars or supermodels.
One of the most pathetic sights is seeing a guy in his 40′s+ who’s never been married, nether fit nor well-kept but sez he want to settle down and will only consider women who look like supermodels. These guys have unrealistic expectations and complain that women will only date them for their $$. Well, if money is all these guys have going for them, why would any decent gal want that?
Steve 22
Evan, fair enough.
Ava Mazur 23
I totally agree with Evan. But here is the thing confidence can turn a 5 into a 10. I am a attractive but GASP overweight, Im not wearing moomoos but a string bikini is just not a good idea. Here is the thing I can own my pudge. I dont complain about it I dont have sex with the lights off and quite frankly I walk around thinking every man is turning thier heads at me. But my sumation is guys like the thrill of the unattainable…and beautiful women have that. Give guys a bit of a chase and they will follow.
hunter 24
recently, at a singles seminar, I heard a female therapist say, that, 2/3 of men marry for the sexual and sensual, and 1/3 for money, whereas, 2/3 of women marry for financial stability, and 1/3 of women marry for the sexual and sensual….a young lady stood up and said, “that is not what I was told.” The therapist replied, “Who are you going to believe, your friends, or 30 years of studies and research?”
hunter 25
I recently got away from flirting with the “sexy” women, now, I flirt with, the plain, average, women, and enjoy life, much more!
Lynn 26
Let’s face it: men are “wired” differently, and good visuals *immediately* get them in the mood. From what I can tell though, good visuals can be any number of things: large breasts, an athletic figure, lacy stockings and high heels, flawless skin with no makeup; red lipstick; confident posture. This seems to be something that European women know, and they make the most of whatever works for them as individuals. The attractiveness that some Americans may rate as a “5″ could be transformed into an incredibly alluring and sexy package. Maybe we should do away with the 1-10 scale anyway?
Steve 27
hunter Nov 29th 2007 at 10:35 pm 24
recently, at a singles seminar, I heard a female therapist say, that, 2/3 of men marry for the sexual and sensual, and 1/3 for money, whereas, 2/3 of women marry for financial stability, and 1/3 of women marry for the sexual and sensual.a young lady stood up and said, that is not what I was told. The therapist replied, Who are you going to believe, your friends, or 30 years of studies and research?
I can relate to that quote. I was brought up by feminists and other sundry idealists. About halfway through college I got smart and started looking at how people actually worked instead of how other people wanted me to believe people should work.
As Grouch Marx once put it:
“Who are you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?”
One of the reasons why I enjoy Evan’s blog. He is refreshingly honest.
Alan 28
As a guy (*ducks*), my initial impression of a woman is based on looks. If I don’t think I could be attracted to her, forget it. However, that initial determination of “am I attracted to her” varies wildly among the male population. While the buxom blonde stereotype is most likely to find the best reception among the male population in total, it’s not the ideal for all guys.
So where does that leave you if you’re not a buxom blonde? Don’t aim for the guys who are after the buxom blondes. Look for someone who’s attracted to *you*.
Brief note that I find self-confidence and self-contentment (i.e., knowing who you are and accepting it) to be very attractive. Looks matter but they are far from the only factor or the one deciding factor.
One last brief observance. In college, I dated a girl who definitely did not fit the “beautiful” stereotype. She really wasn’t a looker – instead, she was a rather plain, slightly overweight girl-next-door. Yet, for some reason I was incredibly attracted to her. I have no idea why I was or what it was about her, I only hope that I meet another woman for whom I feel an equally strong (or greater) attraction.
Roger 29
I have a theory that all the talk men make about looks and women make about money, is more talk than anything else. The same way we all talk about how we’d like to be millionaires and have a big yacht. We talk about it, but we’re not that serious about it, we don’t expect it to happen. After all, average looking women and men without lots of money are dating and getting married all the time, every day in fact.
Selena 30
Looks will initially draw the eye, but I agree self-confidence and self-contentment (great word Alan!) become bigger draws as you get to know someone. There is something incredibly attractive about someone who is comfortable in their own skin–in both men and women.
cami 31
Um, Evan, you spent a lot of time in this post talking about how men are visual. Got I. But what was the advice for women? To NOT hold out for a man who doesn’t care about looks?
OK, done.
I don’t know about you, but most of the women I know are realists who at least accept the fact that a guy’s gotta be physically attracted to them if they’re gonna get a date.
Was there any more advice for women like us, or was your advice just directed at the subset of women who insist on dating non-looksists?
Maybe I’m thick, but I honestly had a hard time finding your post all that helpful or informative, though there was an interesting anecdote in there about how you fired your first writing partner for contradicting your idea of “good” advice.
(Tia-Maria, if you think all men require you to be a 10, you’re lookin’ for love in all the wrong places. Look at the women you know who are married or seriously involved with a guy. They’re not all 10s, are they?)
ABF 32
Are men attracted to beauty? Sure (so are women). However, the old saw of beauty being in the eye of the beholder still prevails. Are women drawn to stable and secure men? Of course, but again the definition of stability and security are almost as diverse as their are women. I really think a lot of frustration, heartache and lonliness could be avoided if people just learned to enjoy themselves and take time to stop and smell the proverbial roses.
Evan Marc Katz 33
Thanks for the note, Cami. As you well know, not all advice has to promise life-changing revelation. The point of this post, as articulated in the last few paragraphs, was simply to validate Tia-Maria’s concerns and let her know that, despite men’s shallowness, there is hope.
Sam 34
Women have a point when they say that men care about superficial things like a woman’s looks, but I have a feeling that women themselves care a lot about other women’s looks too.
Women I’ve known have repeatedly made disparaging comments about other women’s looks. Often these comments come completely out of the blue. Once when I told an ex-girlfriend that I was dating someone new the ex-girlfriend immediately smilingly asked, “is she pretty?” (the ex-gf had never been shallow before)
If women themselves judge other women by their looks, then how can you hold men to a higher standard?
I disagree with Tia-Marie. You don’t have to look like a model to have a boyfriend. Different men are attracted to different things and most men have a broad range of what they find attractive.
Some people are just weird though. There are 5s out there who think they can get a 10. People like that are a minority, just keep going and eventually you’ll find someone who finds you beautiful.
Ron 35
Let’s face it. There aren’t that many really attractive people out there (on a percentage basis when compared with the entire population).
Yet, something like 95% of us will eventually marry (myself excluded).
Now, let’s figure that roughly 10-15% of the population (probably much less than that) are drop dead gorgeous (males and females).
It’s obvious: There’s hope for everyone who has physical flaws. It would be interesting to see a study of whether or not really beautiful people are happier in their marriages than average or eve below average looking people.
Evan Marc Katz 36
Actually, Sam, I disagree. I don’t think you have to look like a model to have a boyfriend – not by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think that with the advent of online dating, when men are scrolling through pages of pages of women, there’s very little incentive for them to write to average women when they feel like they can take a shot at a model. They may be delusional, but it doesn’t stop them at all.
People go online and complain that the people they DON’T want write to them, and the people they DO want won’t write back.
So more realistically, the average person is a 5 who wants to date an 8. The problem is that most of us think we’re 8′s.
Therein lies the disconnect – and the source of the disappointment.
UWS MuShu Jew 37
It’s interesting, because I think this discussion seems to revolve around the nexus of men’s and women’s individual insecurities around aspects of our dating profiles that we are not able to fully control.
Issues of diet and exercise aside, to a certain extent one’s physicality is one’s physicality. (Example: I will always have a belly. If at around 56, 105 pounds, and working out 2 hours a day I still had a belly, its not unreasonable to think that at that point, its just genetics.) Similarly, depending on your job, your salary range is set within the confines of your profession. School teachers as a general rule will not make a six figure annual salary, but corporate attorneys generally will. I work in theatre; my neighborhood Starbucks Barista makes more than I do.
The concerns voiced all seem to only hint at the underlying fear that in the world of dating we are all being summarily judged unfairly on characteristics about which we, ourselves, are already insecure. We take information of all sorts and place it into neat, little heuristic box to make our decisions, but our own insecurities increase the perceived weight which certain traits carry when others place that information into their own neat, little heuristic boxes.
Ultimately, many of the comments seem to speak to the desire for each of us to be judged as individuals rather than as generic categories.
wildgingersnap 38
Tia Maria, the surest way to guarantee no man will find you desirable is to assume that no man will find you desirable. It’s up to you. Do you really think there are men out there who wouldn’t be psyched to have someone who was “fit, fashionable and well-groomed?” Now all you need is killer confidence (and good posture goes a long way).
If you want some inspiration, look to the French who have a term for women who are not conventionally pretty but have style and charm: “jolie-laide” which literally means “pretty-ugly”. Actresses like Sandrine Bonnaire or Charlotte Gainsbourg.
Markus 39
Wild,
That first girl is gorgeous.
Evan,
A lot of posting in this thread. Hope you’re still “mit frau”.
Bennie 40
Tia Maria,
Have you considered concentrating on shorter men? In a previous column Evan pointed out that this is a vastly underserved market:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
Since short men are normally overlooked they will probably respond much more favorably to you; what is a 5 to a 6’5 guy might well seem like a 10 to a 5’5 guy.
Kat Wilder 41
I think it’s natural to be attracted to someone who looks good … at first. I’ve chatted up guys who were “hot” and then, well, if they were boring or arrogant or mean-spirited or whatever, that was pretty much the end of that.
That’s where the online world can put you at a disadvantage (and why so many people post old photos of themselves, thus becoming liars wonderful way to start a relationship!). If you’re not pretty/handsome or if you are but you’re not photogenic, well, you may not get a first or second or third look. (but if you’re cute and write the most boring, ego-centric and grammatically problematic profile, you will; go figure).
So I think women (and men) should go about their lives making themselves happy and doing things they love, taking care of their body (for themselves), surrounding themselves with good-hearted people and genuinely liking who they are. Then, I think it would pretty much be a non-issue. They’ll attract a person who wants that (and who would want anything less?) Confidence is sexy.
stella 42
Looks does count I’m sorry to say but it’s a fact. One doesn’t have to be as “hot” as a model or celeb though. In a place where no one knows anybody, what initially attracts you to a certain person? Looks, the attractiveness. Personality comes later. Sometimes I wish we aren’t this way but we are.
Why women are so vain? Because men made us that way. It’s usually men who leave his wife for a younger or more attractive whore than the other way around…lol
Dreamer 43
@ Cami
thanks for the great advice! that renewed my hope, thinking of the happy relationships out there with average-looking men and women.
Leah 44
From my dating experiences I think this is wrong. It is not all about bodies and trying to live up to airbrushed models that get their stretch marks and cellulite painted away in magazines. Some men go for a good body, some men go for a pretty face, some men want it all. After the initial looks thing, if there’s no personality and intelligence, most men will run a mile.
I have stretch marks, I have cellulite, and even though I don’t like them, I’m always getting asked out. I’ve been married for 10 years, I have been engaged twice and I’m now in a long term relationship. I still get asked out all the time and I’m not skinny, I’m curvy.. and most men love curves! And most men realise that in life even supermodels get cellulite and stretch marks, and even men get cellulite and stretch marks. It’s just life.
My best friend is just average looking and she’s a big girl, but she has the most amazing personality. Men swarm round her like flies as soon as she starts talking. She’s now happily married to a very good looking, wealthy man.
All this hype that men want skinny stick insect supermodels is not true. Most men do not like grinding against someone’s pelvic bone. All the women and young girls who try to starve themselves to death and get eating disorders trying to live up to the impossible media concept of what we should look like, that even the actual models do not look like, cause their airbrushed. All the women who go through painful plastic surgery and even die from it.
Ladies, there is not much to making a man become attracted to you. It is all mental.. what you think of yourself, how you carry yourself, make yourself look pretty without going to extremes, a little confidence and then just be yourself. Half the guys you will meet will be shallow, but then again do you really want to be with a shallow guy? But the other half of the guys will be blown away by you. And once their hooked you can have them eating out of your hand.
These days it’s not all about men trading in their wives/partners for younger models… it’s women trading in their husbands/partners for toy boys!
Women are in their prime in their 30′s/40′s, men are past it by 25.. so Ladies go and get yourself a toy boy! Enjoy the journey and remember you never know what’s round the corner.. it might even be your very own toy boy
hunter 45
to Leah,
I like the way you talk, tell these women to get a boy toy, it is a common practice in Europe. Often times I meet lonely, bitchy, women, whom, I wish would find a partner…..Just remember,….you don’t marry boy toys….
Having sex 46
Hi,
Speed dating is without doubt an unbeatable opportunity to have fun, expand your social circle and maybe even meet a potential partner. Striking a healthy balance between a fear of and a desire for an intimate relationship can be very difficult. Be willing to be open to meeting new people. You want to make sure to meet in a safe place.
anonymous 47
A recently published book, Microtrends, states (on page 9) that between 2002 and 2005, the percentage of men interested in dating women 5 or more years older than they on Match.com increased 44 percent. So, you don’t have to be 20-something. If you are average looking, just take up a fitness routine, let people around you know you are single and looking. Dress well/tastefully for your age (but don’t dress frumpy!). Most of all, have a positive attitude about dating. Accentuate your positive attributes. Raise the bar for theirs. Picky women are also perceived by men as being more desirable. The fact that you are picky communicates to them that you have other options.
Hunter: actually, more and more women are marrying their “boy toys”. The numbers of couples in the USA where the wife is significantly (6 or more years) older than her husband, has increased dramatically since 1997. Microtrends has a chart on page 8 that proves this.
Our population is aging. It is creating a surplus of single women in their 60s who are siphoning off available single men in their 50s — creating a surplus of single women in their 50s who date 40-something men, creating a surplus of 40-something women who date 30 something men (my 48 year old friend gets more dates with men my age, 39, than I do!!), creating a surplus of 30 something women who now date 20 somethings (I had a 20 year old guy with a crush on me at the office, but he was just too unreliable, or I might have considered it…). I think the trend may not be as pronounced in Los Angeles because your population is not aging as quickly there. In the fastest-aging states (such as the one where I live) the tipping point has been reached. I have noticed in the last 10 years a lot more coworkers now date and marry younger men. 10 years ago, there was only one woman at the office who married a guy 5 years younger than she was and she was a little embarassed to talk about it. Now, in a office where there are 8 to 10 women, I only know one who is dating or married to someone older. Think about that. The trend is starting in the older states, but if your state’s average age is gradually getting older you will start to see it there soon too…. After all, why are so many 20 something teachers now getting in trouble and making the news all the time for seducing their teenaged male students? because the younger-man taboo is GONE ladies.
Lyn 48
I think that is about attitude, I have seen a lot of average looking ladies with really hot guys, in awesome relationships. I think that when a woman is confident of who she is, what she wants…when she compliments herself, by herself, she will ultimately attract men, even if she is not a bombshell. I think .. and I may be wrong …. that you have adopted a “guys prefer bombshells, and I am not one” attitude, that is only creating am invisible barrier between you and men. I think, that if you assert yourself, and see how unique and beautiful you are inside and out, and work on yourself, to be the best that you can be, you will see yourself outshine many women around you, and so will men. I think that physical attraction is only part of it, the “chemistry” you put out — is the rest. All the best to you! =)
Jena 49
For f sakes. Look around. Do any of you (Other than the odd rich bloke with young women which is rarer than people hype ito ut to be) see average loking men with dates lining up. I’m sick of women usingy the whole men are shallow excuse to explain why they cant get or keep a man. I’m average loking and Ii get pestered for dates and pursued all the time! I also find not being a doormat helps keep the equality in a relationship at even ground. Most average looking men get rejected consistently and have a hard time finding a mate to. Oof course there never allowed to say women are shallow. No. As for the guy who said he’s ashamed of how shallow he was when he was young. Most guys still dont seem to realise they get rejected because of there looks women just tend to lie to make the guy feel better and not wanting to be mean. Most women I know always sectratly wnat there bf’s hott best friend and feel bored with there mr average bf’s but for some reason we feel the need to go on about it much less than guy’s. I’ve always wondered why guys feel the need to proclaim how shallow they are all the time when everyone aleady knows and who cares? Itas almost as if its an initiation into manhood to not just feel shallow thoughts like all humans due but to loudly proclaim them?
m 50
God, the extent to which some men don’t get it is astounding.
Women care about other women’s looks because of the thing men constantly rant on about: COMPETITION.
And what might women be competing for, you ask?
THE ATTENTION OF MEN.
Evan, the response you gave Cami is a PR-based, well-structured wimp-out. Congratulations on talking without saying anything.
How is the OP supposed to “not give up hope”, short of additional plastic surgery and starvation diets, if she’s not getting any concrete response to her question?
If she’s not looking for specific, concrete advice, why would she ask the question in the first place? Do you think women don’t notice when you don’t actually answer the question posed?
The level of patronization is staggering.
m 51
Um. no.
If you notice, as you will if you read the thread, short men still think they are entitled to that size 00 blond supermodel.
(Also, she has to be an actual working supermodel — with contracts and endorsements — as opposed to just a pretty girl, so the man won’t feel like he’s first judged “by his money” even though he first judges a woman “by her looks”. Puke.)
Matt 52
Women can over time grow accustomed to an ugly guy but for men its not nearly as easy. Its possible for a guy to ‘get it out of his system’ per se and kind of do all the things he wants to then settle for a more sensible women who is not as attractive. Maybe you’ll find that guy but more then likely you will either need to lower your standards, find a new dating pool or focus on health. From what I’ve seen theres a lot of permeated myths and mis-information about dieting in womens popular lit.
verbosity 53
Where are average women left if men only want hot women? I’m not so sure I agree with the premise. That said, and I am speaking in generalities (as the questions is), there are plenty of opportunities.
A main premise is that men generally want the best looking girl they can find as an initial attraction. That said, it begs the question, “What are you doing to maximize that outer packaging?” No one is saying you need to be 5’5″ and no more than 115. The issue is what you do to maximize what you have. Flattering haircut? Flattering clothing? Do you work out? Watch diet? I offer these previous 2 questions to to indicate that someone needs to be a certain size. It is meant to show there can be a difference between size zero and far larger than you were naturally meant to be.
Please do not cast stones and take the haughty approach that men shouldn’t care about such things. The reality is they do. Refusing to accept reality is not only insane, it will not lead to any positive growth.
Now with that said, let me also say that men who are healthier emotionally and mentally do not focus simply on hot chicks. Here in Scottsdale, which is ground zero for fake boobs, lips, botox, fake tans, huge french manicures and all of the other caricature-like traits, increasing numbers of men are looking, nay, begging for women who are real, emotionally and physically. Therefore, it would seem Tia-Maria’s preferred demographic is looking for her also.
Most men I have spoken with have not had good, healthy experiences with ‘hot chicks’ (defined here in preceding paragraph).
However, physical attraction is a must. The simplest point is not to complain that ‘men only want a certain type” and that men need to change. Insisting the world change to suit your belief is unreasonable. However, Tia-Maria can do an honest assessment about her own situation for areas of realistic improvement, and act upon them.
Also keep in mind that what I’m saying is that good, healthy (emotionally) men, whom Tia-Maria presumably wants, are looking for more than a hot piece of you-know-what. By the same token, I would also think she should be happy she isn’t wasting time with men who only want a hottie.
My $0.02
verbosity 54
I meant to write
“I offer these previous 2 questions NOT to indicate that someone needs to be a certain size. It is meant to show there can be a difference between size zero and far larger than you were naturally meant to be.”
Kinda changes the sentence, no?
Lisa 55
This post blows, Evan. Your answer was a total cop out. Blah, blah, blah, yet you had no advice other than not giving up hope even though you pretty much told her not to expect any men to give her a second look because they’re all jerks who only go for hot chicks.
m 56
“This post blows, Evan. Your answer was a total cop out. Blah, blah, blah, yet you had no advice other than not giving up hope even though you pretty much told her not to expect any men to give her a second look because theyre all jerks who only go for hot chicks.”
Which goes right back to what verbosity was pissing and moaning about 2 posts above me concerning fake blonde, boobs, tans, etc.
Do you men HONESTLY believe that a woman would go through the physical hell and expense of, say, a boob job, if on some level she hadn’t been browbeaten into believing it was WHAT MEN WANTED???
So how was she ever supposed to “get a man” if she didn’t give them “what they want”???
Not to mention the men whose eyeballs I’ve seen fall out of their heads and the tongues to the ground slavering over these women??
The cognitive dissonance is staggering.
Staggering.
JuJu 57
Matt:
“Women can over time grow accustomed to an ugly guy but for men its not nearly as easy.”
That is so untrue!
And how is this opinion still so prevalent, that women don’t care about men’s looks? Each time I hear about it, it astonishes me.
You have to realize, in the context of human history, it really hasn’t been that long that women are able to -choose- a mate. What is it, like, the last 50-75 years, tops?
JuJu 58
By the way, on the subject of self-help:
I was browsing through these various love & dating self-help books on Amazon the other day, and it amazed me (although it’s hardly a revelation of some sort) how all the books directed at women are about KEEPING a man, while by far most books for men in this genre are about getting a “hot” woman into bed, nothing beyond that. Whereas it is precisely the men who require guidance in this area so sorely.
My ex-husband, who was insanely in love with me, lost me in part because he never realized the importance of working on a relationship. And it’s only men who may not see a break-up or divorce coming (interesting Mars vs. Venus article: http://men.msn.com/articlebl.aspx?cp-documentid=5873934>1=10715) Makes one think.
Lyall 59
Ron,
Women are instinctually attracted to social status. This is as hard wired as men’s attraction to beauty. Call it shallow if you will. I call it bloody efficient. Evolution has wired us that way and for the most part it succeeds in passing on the best genes.
While beauty is fairly unambiguous, what garners ‘social status’ is highly context dependent. In parts of the US, status is strongly tied to the amount of money a person makes. And hence women are interested in this. This isn’t shallow, it’s instinctual.
I live in New Zealand which is culturally very different. I make very good money but I’m not particularly physically attractive and are only 5’7” and consequently have always struggled to attract women. I’m 25yo, confident, articulate, well educated, in decent shape, musical, and pretty social, but still get bugger all action and always have. I think a big part of this is that money, at least in my age/peer group, is not really a source of status and status has more to do with looks & social value from doing cool stuff and knowing heaps of cool people. And the people that fit into that category usually don’t make much money because they have and continue to spend most of their time partying/socialising/traveling etc and less time working/studying etc.
I have a number of friends who are lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc that make great money and are actually really cool guys, but if they are average lookers and haven’t had much experience with women, they get basically nothing.
As a guy I know has said before, I’ve never met a women that doesn’t care about what a man looks like. And height is often more important than looks. Women forget this, but height is actually an even more fixed variable than looks and if you’re a short guy you’re pretty much stuffed. Women will winge about guys being focused only on looks but then say they need a tall guy in the next breath.
Looks are also pretty important for a guy so that he starts getting lots of experience with women from a young age. Without getting that experience, as soon as you get out of a school/college context it is actually very difficult for these types of men to meet women in bars/clubs etc if they haven’t had enough experience to have developed confidence/understanding with women.
And I think women significantly underestimate how many men suffer from loneliness for large portions of their youth. And its usually the quite decent guys that are decidedly not shallow. It is absolutely a fact that at least up until the early 20s, that 20% of the guys screw 80% of the women and most guys go without.
Lyall 60
PS somebody mentioned that they were astonished at their drop in attractiveness after they left college. As I said in my first post, social status is context dependent. At college it was highly dependent on looks/height and hence you did well. It sounds like the social environment you are currently in has changed and money has become an important element of status.
That sucks man, but that’s life. I’m in the opposite situation – make good money but I’m short and have below-average looks and got squat all through college. I still get squat though but what can you do? People are gifted different levels of sexual attractiveness (both men and women) and if you’ve lucked out you can’t really do anything about it.
Best just to get on with your life and develop friendships, hobbies, your career, read a book, play sport, go to the gym, blog, and work on developing a fulfilling life without a partner as best you can. That’s what I do.
Tia-Maria 61
I asked the original question and many of the responses — including Evan’s — didn’t really address the heart of my question. I do acknowledge that it’s probably my fault because there actually were lots of questions to focus on. What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really aren’t. Men who seek dating advice often want to date and bed really hot women. That’s what dating experts show them how to do — regardless of what they look like.
So many of the replies have stressed how women want tall men or rich men or good looking men. Yes, that’s all true, BUT if a woman goes to a dating expert, she is told to forget all that — go for short men; go for men who have a passion, but perhaps not lots of money; go for an average looking guy who wil treat you well. (News flash — average looking guys, as a whole, don’t treat women any better than good looking guys. Good men, respectful men — average or hot — treat women well. Appearance has NOTHING to do with how people treat other people. ) Women are always told to compromise and men aren’t. Where is the dating expert who is going to show average women how to get a tall, rich, hot looking man who is going to treat her well?
I want to address the people who felt that based on my question, I must be lacking in confidence. Please know that I am not lacking in confidence. In fact, I think true confidence is knowing what you are and what you are not. Whether people want to admit it or not, “confidence” that doesn’t have some external validation is not confidence, it’s delusion. Women who are 10′s are treated differently from women who are 5′s. Plain and simple. We all know people who think they are so hot, but really aren’t. Don’t we feel sorry for them? Don’t some of you — not me– even make fun of them? So, the fact that I said I am not a bombshell or knock out, does not mean that I lack confidence. I know what my best assets are and I work them to my advantage. Honesty and self awareness is confidence – -pretending or wanting to be something you are not is sad.
gonzo 62
Folks: life is not fair, I pretty much gave up this game years ago. I’m 5′ 6 3/4″ and am now 53 and care for an aging parent, which pretty much kills any chances I’ll have for the rest of my days.
I know I’ll never wind up with a Jessica Simpson and have accepted the fact, albeit with a certain sadness, but hey, at least I have a job. It may not be a nice fact, but as the Buck Turgidson character said in the Peter Sellers movie “Dr. Strangelove”: “the truth is not always a pleasant thing.”
This became evident when I was at a brunch one day with a married couple who were friends of mine. They were having me meet a ‘friend’ of theirs, an event I always dreaded. We got to the spot early. Every time a woman I found attractive walked in I’d whisper “Is that her?”
…after a few women had entered the male of the couple asked: “What exactly are you expecting?” I looked around, saw a table with some cute women, nodded my head toward them and said ” Well, someone like one of them?”
The guy glanced over, looked at them, then at me, then said something that pretty much destroyed any optimism I had: “I think you’re being unrealistic”. I haven’t seen them in years, literally.
Years later, a female friend, who was married to another friend of mine, was out at a comedy club at which I was attending. We bumped into each other by accident. Chats began with her and her friends, all women, who were having a ‘girls night out’. 3 of them put their heads together and looked at me. I KNEW what was coming. To make a long story short they mentioned this ‘available’ friend of theirs. I looked around the group and my eyes settled on this cute little women who amongst them.
“Her?” I inquired, expecting negative responses.
One of the group glanced around me. She saw to whom I was referring then gave me this Evil Eye and said, scornfully, “It FIGURES, you like the skinny, pretty one with the big boobs”. (her words exactly)
When you find out what your friends think of you, it can really be painful.
Jena: use spellcheck.
hunter 63
to tia maria,
I don’t think I can answer your question, either…..but I would continue to ask, other dating experts, or other people,…I am almost sure,…….. you will find someone that will answer your question, fully…
hunter 64
to a&v,
I have heard good looking women say,(some in their late 50′s) that, they wouldn’t dance with an unattractive, man, much less, date him….
cp 65
I’ve noticed it is mostly men that say “women dont care about men’s looks as much”
flat out wrong. I am sooo tired of this “men are visual creatures” (barf)
Women are waaay more visual. Look around, men don’t even notice most of the stuff women notice (visually speaking). We notice every little detial (with our EYES).
It is true that women seem to mature faster and learn to compromise or accept less than they know they are worth because maybe they just want to be in a relationship, and they would rather be secure than with some idiot that will eventually cheat on them to prove his man-hood to himself.
I do get incredibly annoyed myself when really ugly and fat guys contact me via the internet.
Women have a much better clue about what “league” they are in.
Am I supposed to feel hopeful? I dont. I’m not worried about attracting men. I am afraid I will never truly like one cause now I think they are all stupid idiots that think we don’t care what they look like as long as they make money, no matter what they do for a living or what they think or feel.
not that it matters…but fyi, most women I know, including me want to know what you do for a living because that is part of who you are…and what makes you interesting to talk to, and to see if there is anything BESIDES money, sex, or ego close to your heart.
I’m so depressed…
verbosity 66
Interesting replies all. I am sorry much of what was said does not assuage Tia-Maria’s concerns. That said, I think we do have to look at certain things, perhaps some of them misconceptions, perhaps not…
About men – We are not ‘wired’ to think a certain type of woman is hot, like a size zero blonde with 34c’s. If you look at history, the ‘hotties’ 300 years ago (or around them – shoot me if I’m off by a century or so) were Rubenesque, coming from the paintings of the same period depicting women who today would be called morbidly obese. Men are trained and socialized to think the girls with protruding pelvic bones, showing ribs, and fake boobs are ‘hot.’
About women (disclaimer: these are my perceptions) – I think it’s fair to say women are equally as visual as men. However, I think it’s equally as fair to say they are far more willing to compromise on a man’s looks when he can provide them security (ie. – money). I also think that women are trained to compromise less, meaning they can get money and looks (let’s face it – they can. We have to chase them). Before I get howls of protest, there have been surveys on the matter (including what hunter said above) that indicate this. Also, one need only look at Match to see how many women seek men who make 2x (or more) what they make. So to say women do not look at wallet is inaccurate and disingenuous. I disagree with cp’s sentiment that men are stupid idiots who think women don’t care about looks, only money (my paraphrase). It sounds as though she’s frustrated.
I’ve oversimplified the above somewhat, but I hope readers see where I am coming from. Brad Pitt can get most any woman because he’s good-looking, famous, AND rich. Angelina Jolie can get most any man because she’s hot. Period. Focusing only on looks and money leads to shallow, poor outcomes.
Here’s what I think… both sexes often have unreasonable expectations for their mates and themselves, and do little to define the character traits they really want and need to be happy long term. It seems more important to define those personality characteristics that will make you happy outside of looks and money.
So boys, listen to the women who wish you wouldn’t look so much at the Pam Andersons. They have a point. You may be ignoring many other traits that will make you happy.
Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people. Ignoring this valid complaint, dismissing it, and pretending it doesn’t exist, only gives men more reason to focus only on your looks since they know you are after his money.
And yes, there are people (good-looking) out there who are not disproportionally focused on swimsuit looks and money. Keep the faith.
Michael Ejercito 67
“Speed dating is without doubt an unbeatable opportunity to have fun, expand your social circle and maybe even meet a potential partner.”
This is true; and you get to see other people as they are , not in a touched-up, airbrushed photograph you would find in magazines.
Michael Ejercito 68
Half of the women that I come across are attractive. Excluding the fat ones, this would rise to four-fifths.
Lisa 69
I think men are more shallow and cruel than women … being judged on your looks starts when you are very young.. and hurts . by the time you are a preteen or teen you may have a very low self esteem and its due to men and boys. Personally I dont care how rich a man is I have to consider him attactive to look at or I dont want him touching me . I dont mean he has to be perfect and beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I have to like what I see. I cant understand how women can marry a rich ugly older man and go on to have a bunch of very ugly children lol. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts those women all have hot young lovers ( no doubt attracted to their money ) and the whole vicious circle starts all over again.
Lisa
starthrower 70
First-I-apologize-for-the-hyphens….my-spacebar-doesn’t-work.
Second-after-reading-all-of-the-posts-I-wonder-how-men-and-women-form-couples-at-all.
Michele 71
Although I didn’t read each and every word that each and ever person wrote, I did adequately speed read and one thought came to mind…so many seem to make very broad generalizations about both women a/o men. And some posts are borderline hostile (for whatever reason).
Success in any venue is predicated upon attitude. Success is learned from experience and experience comes from making mistakes – at least that’s my learned philosophy.
Case in point…met a man this afternoon for lunch. We have been talking for about two weeks and he seemed miffed that I had to change our date from yesterday to today (pardon me, I do work for a living). Our conversations have been pleasant but something told me that he was not the one (whoever that might be). Why I agreed to lunch was simply because I am an eternal optimist and have found that my instincts are not always correct.
That said in his case my instincts were correct. Somewhat nice guy and all, but could I see myself spending any amount of time with him, in the future, NO. Furthermore he’s not quite a mature Adonis but darn close. He obviously was telling the truth when he mentioned going to a gym 4 days a week. And he’s immaculate as well as a sharp dresser with incredibly nice teeth, a glowing smile and 6’4″ tall.
So what went wrong…his manners for one when he shoved french fries into his mouth with his fingers – all he talked about was his kids and himself – he failed to make much eye contact, too. Just not my type.
So what do I do? Make a general statement that all good looking tall men are less than desirable or simply carry on and consider our “date” yet another tribute to my sometimes iffy intuition. I will go with the latter.
And on that note, while driving home received a call from a man who is not even close to being as “sharp” as Mr. Almost Adonis. We have been casually dating for the past few months. And we are going to see each other on Friday evening. I am actually excited about seeing him because we spend most of our dates laughing, holding hands and feeling like the World is ours for the moments we spend. Would I take a second look at him under other circumstances — NO.
As for my appearance…am certainly not chopped liver and still turn a head or two for being a member of the baby boomer generation. Am told I am a combo of good genes and healthy living.
Good Luck gals and guys. Keep your hearts open!
Brady 72
As a handsome,54-year-old rookie heavy metal drummer/lyricist/singer
who’s 100% lad,I’m only interested in buxom blondes!!!!!!(34D-42D
bra size,lasses!!!!!!)
m 73
“Ladies, listen to the men when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their money, not them as people.”
*sigh*
Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.
m 74
And one more thing, just because I’m curious and this excuse is used so frequently.
If men are such visual creatures, why can’t you see what’s in the refrigerator, before asking your mate/spouse/S.O. where it is, WHEN IT’S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?!?
m 75
And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, there’s this:
“What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really arent.”
*crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*
*crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*
Selena 76
M,
Perhaps dating experts don’t advise men to compromise, or “settle” because they know doing so will fall on deaf ears. A man “wants what he wants” afterall. He can’t help it. Poor soul.
Maybe it’s that there are more women out there who really want a LTR, and more men who just want to serially pursue tall, buxom, blue-eyed, blondes–heck with a LTR!
verbosity 77
Hmmmm,
1. “Men, listen to the WOMEN when they point out that all too many of you seem overly interested in their looks, not them as people.”
2. “And then of course, like the OP mentioned yet again, theres this:
What I really wanted to know was why are women who seek dating advice told to compromise on what they want and men really arent.
*crickets from the advice columnist (others as well as the one spotlighted here)*
*crickets from loud opinionated male commenters*”
Answers –
1. You forgot about our looks, also. Men need to be hot, have money & have a great personality. All else being equal, the more ladies emphasize money versus looks, the more men will emphasize her looks. I wonder how ladies would feel having the same criteria (looks + personality+ money) applied to them…Right now, most men have to bring all 3 for a woman to feel she’s not ‘compromising.’ Women need only to bring 2 of the 3. They should be thankful.
2. Because, generally speaking, men are always the ones compromising & reacting to women’s ever-changing desires. Men also generally accept demonization for simply being men (all men just want sex, men are pigs), thereby making the ultimate compromise. Such an imbalance is less than ideal. I recall Evan wrote somewhere “You dont like to get hit on in public, you dont want to date online and you dont want to be set up on blind dates. Tell us if sending messenger pigeons is an appropriate way of courting. Because if it is, were all over it.”
Also consider sex…women in general control this. With the number of unfounded sex accusations that make news (Kobe Bryant, John McCain, Clarence Thomas), it’s no wonder men with an ounce of sense do not try to drive, let alone co-pilot that car. It’s not worth the risk (jail, reputation, etc.)
Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, we’d love supermodel X, but we’ll take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.
For men, it’s generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants….
Women – “I want someone sensitive, caring & nurturing”
Men – “I am sensitive, caring & nurturing”
Woman – “I’m tired of all of these wimpy nice guys. I want real men”
Men – “Me, Tarzan. You, Jane”
I trust readers can see where I’m going with the above…So far, it seems as if controlling the board, the dice, and the rules doesn’t make you happy, then perhaps you should adjust your expectations. It’s all you can control, no?
m 78
“For men, its generally a never-ending hopscotch game of reacting to what she wants.”
Poor pubby wubby wubby verbosity.
I’ll call you a waaaaaaahhmmbulance.
Men are, frequently, NO different in the capacity you describe.
I will give you a small break because my guess is that you are heterosexual and therefore do not experience intimate relationships with men with great regularity.
So perhaps a course of empathy might be in order.
However, until such time as you take and pass such class successfully?
STOP. WHINING.
Women are not X-Boxes. There are no absolute rules that will work for EVERY woman across the board.
Why? Because we are all different people! *gasp* *shock*
Women, for the most part, learn to adapt to the fact that what worked in one relationship just might not work in the next one.
If your infinitesimal brain can’t cope with that, you might want to commit to BEING SINGLE!!
Oh, wait — you already did that in an earlier comment in an earlier post, didn’t you?
:rolleyes:
question for verbosity 79
Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you can’t change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?
Also, I have to wonder, with all due respect, if you don’t earn a lot of money. The reason I ask is because your primary complaint about women is that they care too much about men’s earnings. It seems likely to me that no one would complain about the rules of the game if they were winning at it, which leads me to think perhaps you’re not. Is that true? Do you believe women won’t go out with you because you don’t make enough?
While we’re at it, I’m curious to know whether or not you’re divorced, verbosity. It helps to know what life experiences are informing people’s perspectives.
starthrower 80
i-have-a-dream…..i-have-a-dream-that-one-day-dates-will-not-be-judged-on-their-bust-to-waist-to-hip-ratio-or-their-wallet-and-bank-account-but-on-the-content-of-their-character-and-the-love-in-their-hearts…
starthrower 81
Evan-I-don’t-know-if-you-could-agree-with-my-line-of-thinking-but-it-seems-we-get-caught-up-in-these-silly-little-dramas-over-dating-that-we-forget-how-to-be-good-to-each-other….we-have-people-getting-blown-up-in-the-Middle-East,-crazed-gunman-shooting-up-whoever-they-can-point-a-gun-at-and-people-homeless-and-starving…We-think-we’re-having-a-bad-day-if-our-girlfriend-isn’t-a-busty-blonde-or-our-guy-earns-minimum-wage-at-the-Safeway…we-are-shallow-little-people…some-people-are-just-trying-to-figure-out-how-they-will-eat-that-day…love-is-supposed-to-be-safe-harbor-from-the-world’s-insanity.
Ok-rant-over
verbosity 82
question,
I find it interesting how people, including yourself, love to try and psychoanalyze me for the points I bring up. Curious how you, M and others in particular, fail to respond to the points raised. You may not like the points, but that does not invalidate the issue I raise. If you do wish to question WHAT I raise, fine. By all means do so. I’m not going to respond to insipid fishing expedition questions.
M, Sweeite…
I noticed no rebuttal regarding the issues of sex, Evan’s quote or the look-personality-money point above, the bulk of what I wrote. Unsurprising. Try and use that positive outlook of yours to try and have a positive discussion regarding those topics. Perhaps that simply isn’t possible with you, is it?
Michael Ejercito 83
That depends on whether or not women have something besides their looks.
verbosity 84
Kudos, Starthrower.
JerseyGirl 85
Maybe the real answer is that you just can’t ever win with men. After reading the article and the responses to it, that is exactly how it seems. If men want the hottest women around maybe they are better of snuggling up with their Playboys. Since that is obivously what men want and anything less then that is settling to men. Answer: If you are an average girl you might end up with a man but he will always be wishing for the 10 and that is the best you can expect from him. They arne’t kidding when they say it’s a man’s world.
question for verbosity 86
That’s fine if you don’t wish to answer questions about your personal life. You take a very strong stance against women in a lot of posts, and so it helps to know where you’re coming from. I still find it unlikely that you’d be complaining about women’s attention to money if money weren’t a problem for you.
That aside, you still didn’t respond to my question, which was, given that we all know life is unfair, “What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”
Also, are you positing that men’s preoccupation with looks is a direct result of women’s preoccupation with men’s wealth? You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning men’s wallets. I thought men were just more visual.
Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the “men-pay” model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?
verbosity 87
question for verbosity wrote:
“Perhaps you are right about how women unfairly expect men to be breadwinners on top of being good looking & sociable. But as Evan says, life is unfair and you cant change others. What do you hope women will do in response to your grievances?”
First, they are not grievances, so do not try to infer that I’m somehow whining. They are the reality of the situation, like it or not. Secondly, I do not care what women (or men) do after reading about my view and other men’s similar views on the subjects. Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not. Many men who read mine and similar posts may agree and change their behavior, many not. That is the reality.
However, my point is simple – that guys should disengage entirely from these women who look to men for what men can give them economically. Focus their energies on themselves & their careers and their personal lives(non-relationship), and if they do seek a relationship with the opposite sex, seek one who agrees with (and practice) the same philosophy.
verbosity 88
question, please see another thread. I’ll repost it here. Apologies to anyone for repetition.
“question for verbosityFeb 27th 2008 at 07:56 pm 56
How can you tell the difference between those women who are sincere and the ones who should be avoided because theyre too preoccupied with what they stand to gain economically?
verbosityFeb 28th 2008 at 07:45 am 57
question,
You can tell the differences by watching WHAT they do. When a bill comes to they insist on paying? Do they do the half-assed purse reach? Do they just sit there like Cleopatra while you take care of it? Does she want to go to every high-end restaurant and club in town? With you paying? Does she talk about the trips her ex took her on to Europe/anyplace else? What does she do for work? What is her plan of advancement? If non, be careful. Is she a secretary that knows all high end clubs, restaurants and vacation spots? If she earns good $ (same or more than you) and never offers or insists on paying, you have a good indicator.
By the way, these questions apply equally for both sexes. I do not understand why, if women can do the same jobs as, and earn the same (if not more than – see Warren Farrell), that either sex should pay the other for their companionship, which is really what we are talking about. I think its because those who insist on the inequality (men pay system, all else being equal), dont like the logical conclusion, that conclusion being tacit prostitution, at least in part. I mean payment for companionship, not necessarily sex. I think this answers womens oft-repeated complaint that men dont care about them as people. My answer is that if you insist on being paid for your company, you devalue yourself as a person and cannot reasonably expect someone to therefore care more about you as a person.”
(End of comment)
I’d probably add to the above final paragraph something like, “Therefore, if you devalue your personality, all you have left are looks. If that’s all there is left to value, more emphasis will be placed there.”
“Also, are you positing that mens preoccupation with looks is a direct result of womens preoccupation with mens wealth?” – Yes.
“You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning mens wallets.” – Yes. Your characterization of men as shallow is unwarranted, and also posits that women somehow are ‘better.’ At least your statement accurately summarizes that both sexes are not seeking the most noble human characteristics, but I do not place the value judgment of ‘shallow’ on them.
The above does not apply to all women or men, but does to an awful lot of them. I say the majority. Others disagree.
I trust that answers your question.
verbosity 89
“Finally, are you absolutely certain that most modern women insist on the men-pay model? Are you speaking from statistical evidence or from your own personal experience?”
Yes – See Evan’s blog topic re: women who earn more than men for additional info. The main article itself. Also, I referenced a yahoo article that says something like 75% of women said they’d marry for money. I think there’s more in there, though.
JerseyGirl 90
Said by Verbosity:
Men compromise all the time regarding looks. Yes, wed love supermodel X, but well take you. Just as you would love Brad Pitt but compromise for us.
—————————————————————————-
That is the big difference between men adn women. Just because we don’t end up with Brad Pitt doesn’t mean we think we are settling. I am not even attracted to Brad Pitt. And even if there are “hotter” men out there, my man is the hottest one to me. With men, that isn’t the case. They automatically make some nameless girl in a magazine the “ideal” for what they want and say that their own wives/girlfriends are what they “settle” for. If men think they are “settling” so much then men should stick with fantasies about models and curl up with porn at night instead of treating the woman you claim you care about like a “settlement”.
Men don’t care anyway if they don’t look like Brad Pitt because men aren’t as harshly judged and critized for the way they look. But how many guys here don’t want to be used or valued for their money? Certainly no guy here. Yet women are told that hey “Guy’s want models but they will take you because that’s all they can get and as a woman you should be really happy a man is willing to throw you some table scraps.” Seriously must be a nice world we live in for men.
—————————————————————————-
Also said:
Some ladies may agree and move one step closer to understanding where many men com from, most I suspect would not.
—————————————————————————-
I try very hard to understand where men come from but I just don’t get it. To me, what men stand for seems cold, selfish, and takes away from the exact things that women want and want to feel from men.
I in turn, wish men would take a step closer to try to be more understanding of where women come from, but like you, I also suspect many men don’t wish to do this. And like you would be pleased if women were more understanding, women would be too if the reverse happend. It is a two way street.
verbosity 91
Jerseygirl,
I trust you’ve read previous posts, not just by me. I think many men have made clear that they are far more willing to trade (hot chick of the moment)’s looks for a great personality. Men in general do not care what women earn, so we do not consider that as a necessary component. (Because hey, we are supposed to pay for everything, right?) Keep in mind we are talking about having a LTR with the person in question, not whether we’d like to bang them. That is the distinction. We understand the reality is that (pinup girl of the month), while hot, is probably far less likely to have a good personality.
However, as I said above, women simply need to bring looks & personality to the party. Men need to bring looks, personality & money to the party. What I gather from your post is that you lament that you feel men only value looks. I do not feel that women value only money, but they place a far higher value on it than a man’s looks and certainly personality. Mathematically speaking, men need to bring more to the party. (looks + personality +money). I think women who bring less to the party (looks + personality) should not complain.
Secondly, on the subject of understanding the opposite sex, if women in general cannot understand men’s valid point about the preoccupation women have with what men can do for them economically speaking, there’s nothing I can do to help them on that front. I would note that this economic preoccupation in effect disregards them as people…see the problem?
The complaint women have is that we overvalue their looks and ignore them as people. Same problem, no?
Further, on the subject of understanding, I would like to point out that the main response to mine and similar posts is to try and dehumanize me and men who posit the same (“You’re bitter” “Stop Whining” “You must have been hurt”….blah blah). I have news for you – insulting men who may disagree with you (not you personally) is not an effective communication tactic. It’s no wonder so many ladies who do this have relationship problems. Not to mention it gives men zero incentive to try and understand or work with you. Obviously this doesn’t apply to all women as what you state doesn’t apply to all men, but you can see my point, I trust…
JerseyGirl 92
Verbosity:
I think many men have made clear that they are far more willing to trade (hot chick of the moment)s looks for a great personality.
—————————————————————————
That might be what men say, but that isn’t what men do. I see many men choose a very obvious sexual woman who is not a nice person and have a relationship with her over the “great personality” who is “cute”. What men claim is true, and what men actually do, is very telling and sometimes two different things. That is why you always need to look at a man’s actions before his words.
I stand by what I said earlier that you didn’t directly address. The big difference between men and women that a woman knows she isn’t getting Brad Pitt but she considers her man better then Brad Pitt. She doesn’t care if she doesn’t end up with Brad Pitt. With men, they know they aren’t getting Jessica Alba, but they “sacrifice” and don’t consider their mate better. They put images like Jessica Alba on a higher pedestal then the own women in their life. It is very disheartening to know this but it is a fact about men and women. Women just appreicate their men more obviously then men value theirs.
—————————————————————————–
Verbosity:
We understand the reality is that (pinup girl of the month), while hot, is probably far less likely to have a good personality
—————————————————————————-
But what if she does have a good personality then? Come on. Not every pretty girl has a crappy personality. This statement is said more to “appease” women then for there to be any real truth in it.
Still goin on the “hot pin-up girls” topic, I guess men can live vicariously on the internet with x amount of “hot pin up girls” and “settle” for their real life woman at the same time to meet a man’s needs similtamiously. Unfortunetly, alot of women end up being short changed in their realtionship and feminity with their men because of this. It isn’t men that pay the price for it, it is women.
—————————————————————————-
Verbosity:
Men need to bring looks, personality & money to the party
—————————————————————————–
I disagree with your assesment that men have to bring more to the party. I also disagree that you seem to think women should not voice their hurts and issues with men because *you* think women need to bring less.
While a man does have a higher standard on what money he brings to the table then a woman, a woman has a higher standard on her looks she brings to the table then a man. I know so many typically unattractive men with pretty women. I don’t know unattractive women with super hot men.
Men are not held to the same look standard. A woman just wants a guy *she* is attracted to. And that doesn’t equate to looking like a model. Which is why most women don’t sit around masturbating to models and most men do. (Again, unfortunetly for women since they once again get treated with little regard to their needs).
I know many men that do desire a woman that works and is motiviated and has a steady income. Maybe she isn’t held to the same standard of money a man is, but he certainly isn’t held to the same standard of looks she is. Luckily for men, women don’t sit around masturbating to men with tons of money to the same extent men sit around masturbating to women who are pretty. If we did, image how much more men would be insecure about the money issue then they already are.
—————————————————————————-
Verbosity:
insulting men who may disagree with you (not you personally) is not an effective communication tactic. Its no wonder so many ladies who do this have relationship problems. Not to mention it gives men zero incentive to try and understand or work with you.
—————————————————————————–
The funny thing about communication is both genders think they are the better at communnicating, when neither is a very effective in getting their point across to the opposite gender. And just like certain things give men zero incentive to try and understand women and work with us, the same happens in return. Men don’t always give incentive to help a woman try to understand and work with him.
verbosity 93
Good post, Jerseygirl. It’s good to have respectful discourse on the matter. FYI, some words may be flippant for brevity. No disrespect intended. I hope this won’t be too long. I’m going to abbreviate the quotes, for shortness.
Jersey Girl wrote
“That might be what men say, but that isnt what men do. I see many men choose a very obvious sexual woman who is not a nice person and have a relationship with her over the great personality who is cute.
- My answer – It’s based on sex. Men will tolerate a crappy personality for some time as long as the sex is great. (cost/benefit & all) When the crappy personality outweighs the great sex, it’s time to move on.
Jerseygirl wrote:
“The big difference between men and women that a woman knows she isnt getting Brad Pitt but she considers her man better then Brad Pitt. She doesnt care if she doesnt end up with Brad Pitt.”
- My answer – Hooey. The posts above and other threads indicate that women have a clear preference for men who possess looks & money. I mentioned other cited articles that illustrate this (74% marry for $$). I do not doubt that what you posit exists, but it seems clear from the available evidence that’s way in the minority.
Jerseygirl wrote:
“Men are not held to the same look standard…..needs).”
“I know many men that do desire a woman that works and…same standard of looks she is.”
- My answer – I’ve answered this previously. I’m not going to repeat it. Women in general are more willing to compromise on a guy’s looks if he has $. It’s good you acknowledge the double standard regarding women’s earnings in the dating arena…though I think the crack about masturbation is unwarranted and unfounded.
I also trust you understand I did not mean you personally in the paragraph that began “insulting men who may disagree . . .”
Jerseygirl wrote:
The funny thing about communication . . .work with him.”
- My answer -Respectfully, your answer is vague. What specific communication to men fail to make? I do not get it. I specifically stated specific communications that cause problems, and have seen none in return. Simply stating that men are not effective doesn’t solve the issue. I admit that there may be some men who are not clear at communicating, but I’ve found that most are. Then again, I don’t date men, lol.
Good, post again, JG
dialog with verbosity 94
Well, thank you for keeping this blog abuzz with controversy. It certainly stimulates debate.
My one comment to you is that what you consider “reality” or “fact” or “observations” are perhaps far more subjective than you think. I wouldn’t be so quick as you to conclude that what a tiny fistful of studies suggests equates to the truth.
Hadley once suggested you were a lawyer. Well, I am a scientist. I’m clearly far more skeptical than when it comes to being convinced that a few numbers represent objective reality.
Are you certain that you haven’t dated only a SUBSET of women, and that your perceptions of women aren’t limited to the kind of woman you’re attracted to? Absolutely certain?
Please don’t think I’m trying to insult you with my line of questioning. You’re obviously a deep thinker. I just wonder how often you’ve turned your dizzying intellect on yourself to examine trends in your own thinking.
verbosity 95
dear dialogue,
“Please dont think Im trying to insult you . . . Youre obviously a deep thinker . . .turned your dizzying intellect on yourself . . .”
You are insulting, but I’ll be so kind as to answer your question anyway.
My conclusions (which I do not love, by the way) are based upon data that I have seen, in the form of different statistics, surveys and articles. I am open to other conclusions. No one offers any. Curious.
“Im clearly far more skeptical than when it comes to being convinced that a few numbers represent objective reality.” By all means, please provide SOME data, ANY data. At least there are a “tiny fistful” of studies for my conclusions.
As a scientist, I would think that the method of objecting to another’s conclusions is to present evidence that refutes those conclusions in whole or in part. I would think that questioning the scientist’s person or fishing for information about his personal life is not accepted practice…
Perhaps most people simply don’t like the conclusions I’ve drawn for what those conclusions say about themselves.
And so I’d like to ask the same question back. “Please dont think Im trying to insult you with my line of questioning. Youre obviously a deep thinker. I just wonder how often youve turned your dizzying intellect on yourself to examine trends in your own thinking.”
two.can.play (formerly dialog with verbosity) 96
Actually it’s perfectly acceptable in the scientific community to first challenge the method by which another arrives at his conclusions. Before I present data to refute anything, it must first be deemed worthy of refuting. Don’t you agree? There are a lot of people out there who make a lot of claims. You couldn’t possibly have the time to address them all, correct?
And your perception that I have insulted you is perhaps personal projection. I am completely sincere whenm I say you are a deep thinker with a dizzying intelligence. You clearly think deeply on matters, as evidenced by your lengthy posts. And to read the fruits of your intellect is a truly dizzying experience. Therefore, I have born you no insult.
And if you think I have further insulted you by suggesting you lack the finances to win the affections of the women you’ve pursued, well then you are mistaken there as well. You see, I do not place a value on a person by what’s in his wallet. (I believe you’ve said that’s a good thing) Therefore, for me to suggest you are poor is not a personal attack but a hypothesis to explain why you overly emphasize what you perceive as the female tendency to over-emphasize the pocketbook. By taking my suggestion as an insult, I believe it demonstrates that YOU yourself place a value on what’s in your pocketbook. WHich means you’ve fallen victim to the mentality to which you so strenuously object. For if money were no big deal to you, you would not take my suggestion as a slight.
If you would allow my personal opinion to enter the discussion, I must say I find you fascinating. Now I don’t have the abundance of free time to devote to this blog as you do (I tend to spend my time on dates with very agreeable companions ), but I shall certainly check in to respond to your titillating posts when time permits!
Janne 97
This is by far the most foolish and unintelligent site with “advice” I’ve ever come across…”men are dumb and they only want hot bimbo’s”, thank heaven I live among Danish men with way more substance, strength and lust for adventurous and smart women as opposed to this example of the dark ages! But from what I can tell you just erase women as blind if they don’t agree with you on what men wants and what men are about, and according to you that’s solely hot young girls of the most dumb and stereotyp kinds. It equals setting us (men and women) back 50 years or so, and I will not have that shit in my mailbox ever again. Now I’ll go give the next warm, funny and intelligent man on my way a big hug for not being as shallow as this crap!
verbosity 98
Dear Readers,
If one’s idea of challenging method is to question me and my personal background, it’s nothing more than a fallacious way to turn the focus on me, not the substance of what I said. I grant it is more clever than other posters’ tactics, but the same strategy nonetheless. Funny how still no one proffers any separate evidence to refute what I said.
By the way, anyone catch the articles regarding how much women lie? Links:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334381,00.html
http://www.nypost.com/seven/03022008/news/regionalnews/miss_leading_100063.htm
500 women polled (not the largest sample, I grant)..75% lie about money, 60% cheated on spouse, and other examples.
The reason I bring up these types of items: Balance. Many men are aware of human flaws and openly acknowledge them. Women, generally speaking, act as though they are morally superior beings who never, ever engage in immoral or amoral conduct. They are not superior. Nor are they inferior (though some men would disagree). They are the same, though different.
As a note to Two.Can…
I extended you the courtesy of answering your question. I also asked the same question of you that you asked of me. Your answer indicates quite clearly that you must deem something worthy of refuting. Curiously, synonyms for ‘deem worthy’ include patronize, condescend and ‘lower oneself’… With such a vastly superior knowledge, one would think it would be no trouble at all to refute anything I’ve said.
Additionally, your comments that assert your sincerity, intimate I am ‘projecting,’ ‘lack the finances’ and that I somehow have “fallen victim to the mentality to which you (I) so strenuously object,” remain nothing more than cute little devices to turn this about me, not what I said or the evidence upon which it is based.
Now, looking at your post as a whole, you have:
1. Not refuted anything I’ve stated previously;
2. Ignored my direct question to you;
3. Patronized me;
4. Accused me of projection; and
5. Intimate I am poor.
I can say more (such as the use of shaming techniques), but why bother? Readers get the point. I extended you the courtesy of answering your sarcastic original question. You insulted me in reply, and extended me no such courtesy by answering my question. So you see, simply by stating you are not insulting when in fact you are, you make my arguments for me. By providing no contradicting evidence, you make my arguments for me. By patronizing me, you make my arguments for me. By trying to shame me, you make my arguments for me. Thank you for that.
I’m not going to engage Two.can or any other posters in such silly exchanges any longer. They clearly are unproductive.
Sayonara
jonquil 99
I
think this article is the perfect counterpoint to verbosity’s over-reliance on studies to make cases for his arguments. I adore the author, Mark Morford, and want to have at least half of his babies.
( http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/02/01/notes020108.DTL%20 )
beverly 100
I never had a boyfriend in highschool.
In my 6 years of college only one person tried to date me and I married him. In the 19 years of being with my boyfriend then husband of 16 years; no one every flirted with me.
I have been separated for a year with no ring on my still no flirts or pick ups. I think I am attractive, but men don’t see me has attractive. I smile, try to look open and inviting, still nothing.
James 101
Janne not all men are like that , I’ve been with my mate for 32 years and I suppose I’ve been very lucky to have found the right woman the first time out as she found me.
I’ve seen the wreckage alot of men leave behind them – kids all over with several women . Thing is few people care to travel the love path – its too much me me me me going on to have anything left for a loving relationship. Thats why we see these dating services all over taking advantage of these losers hooking them up with more women to screw over – it goes on and on . thank GOD ‘ I found true love and I maintain it keep it that way for I don’t want to end up like these losers .
People think thier occupation is who they are – thats a sample of how out to lunch they are. lol
Rachel 102
All men revere beauty, no doubt about that. If any guy said that Jessica Alba wasn’t hot, I would question his sexual preference. That being said, there ARE differing opinions as to what makes us women desirable and beautiful. Some men prefer small, natural breasts over fake 34Ds. Some guys prefer Asians, while others prefer blondes. One of my best friends liked women with big teeth — ask him why, not me. I have met many tall men (over 6 foot 2) who date only very petite women (5 foot 3 and under). And on, and on, and on.
All women have visual preferences too, and to deny that is pure hypocrisy. Hence, we see the advantages for tall men. He can have an average face and a mediocre salary if he’s six-four, but the beautiful-faced and totally ripped M.D. who’s five-four won’t get the time of day from many ladies. At least not in the very strange world of online dating. Maybe if you met both guys at the supermarket, it would be a different story.
The way I see it, a lot of women overlook the Beauty thing for a mate if the guy has other attributes because they place more value on making a lifelong connection. Men are pre-programmed to spread the seed and don’t view things in the same way.
hunter 103
To Rachel,
Those six foot plus men you have met that date short women, do that, because that is what is available. Men will never say you that. There are six foot plus women some where in the world, but, that is a very narrow pool of available single women….
hunter 104
to Rachel,
I try to date different nationalities, but, I get a much bigger response, if I stay within my ethnicity.
Rachel 105
Hunter:
I respectfully disagree, from personal observation — it was just one example of the many differing things that guys find attractive, anyway. As I said, some guys like this, others like that — and I hope you’ll agree that a guy can find any number of attributes beautiful and have preferences (height, shape, whatever). At any rate, the six two-plus guys I know get hit on all the time by five foot 10 ladies, but they simply prefer the petite women. If you said it was a psychological thing, or social conditioning, I might agree there. Best wishes to you.
hunter 106
to Rachel,
Really? Six foot-plus men prefer petite women?….hhhmmmhhh. I have noticed, that petite women try harder/make themselves available/use obvious body language, to get a mans attention….
hunter 107
To Rachel,
Ask your six foot plus male friends, that are seeing petite women, “who approached who first?” Just out of curiosity….
Rachel 108
Best of luck to you, Hunter.
cinnamon 109
#106
like we stand on our toes to look him in the eyes?
Rachel 110
To Cinnamon:
Yeah, and it’s so cool when they bend down to gaze back. Plus, we can wear any kind of shoe without towering over the guy. Ah, yes indeed.
JerseyGirl 111
I’m quite petite and get more hit on by taller guys then shorter ones.
hunter 112
To Rachel,
Thank you..
hunter 113
To cinnamon,
you’re funny!….he, he, he,
The Reverend Terence Fformby-Smythe 114
I wonder why short men would be afraid to hit on petite women.
vino 115
#106
I thought they jumped up & down, firing flare guns & blowing whistles…
hunter 116
to the rev T,
Somehow I don’t think short men are afraid of hitting on petite women. It is more like, petite women are attracted to tall men. Women teach tall men the social/relationship skills, men need to relate.
hunter 117
to vino,
Ha! Ha!, you are funny!…he, he, he,,,
JerseyGirl 118
We do. And we do all that in a rockin pair of heels and cute outfit.
hunter 119
to Vino,
They are always hiring at the Comedy club in Hollywood, I sense, you would do well there,…….
cinnamon 120
#115
good idea, next time I have to try that!
vino 121
Just don’t turn an ankle, JG…
Something tells me Cinn need not do that..
“We do. And we do all that in a rockin pair of heels and cute outfit.”
- Jeeze and I thought dressed up like a clown would be more effective. Maybe hold a beer in one hand & a pizza in the other…
vino 122
Hunter’s #119,
I’d rather skip the comedy clubs & go straight for the Ray Romano cash in a sitcom. I can so do it. Make it the anti-Everybody Loves Raymond.
Everybody Loves Ronda…
She’s a lovable buffoon, who wouldn’t know how to walk upright without Ron’s wit and gentle (and not-so-gentle) prodding. Her parents would be neurotic, overbearing, and cartoonish…and the kids would roll their eyes every time Ronda talked but listened to Ron.
I see big $ there….
Don’t you?
hunter 123
to vino,
#122, sounds like a plan, do it…..
cinnamon 124
#123
yes, you definitely have the capacity
ps. as far as I’m concerned you could also make one about a PUA
Steph 125
So… what does a ’10′ look like, generally?
Michelle 126
This reply is for Evan and Tia Maria. To Evan. I know you said that men that don’t go for looks are as rare as Haley’s comet. I have read all the posts and some people have mentioned women who were of average looks and attracted lots of men including good looking men. Obviously they have a formula for attracting men, and it was not just a question of a freaky one to million chance of an average girl being paired off with a handsome man if this kept happening to them all the time.If these women can do it and though they may seem to be a rarity, I’m sure other women could learn how to be like them.I think it would be good if a woman like this could be a co consultant on your page so she can tell her secrets. At university I also knew someone who really wasn’t that attractive but she was so popular withmen. She was really warm and affectionate and had a bubbly personality. I think confidence isn’t just a case of resignation of the fact I am a 5 and not a 10, but that I am not a 10, but I can attract men as if I am a 10. (self belief) This may be very difficult in this world, where for women confidence can come from attracting men, but I am sure the women I have mentioned must not care when they are rejected and they must believe they can attract the men they want as if they were a 10, if they didn’t believe this and were of average looks, they would not attract the better looking men.
amy 127
This is all so silly, though. Men are attracted to women who look like they might dig sex. I think that’s the only genuine criterion, if you’re talking looks alone. That’s what’s hot, I hear. I’ve been propositioned — I mean outright propositioned — in coffee shops while wearing indescribably unflattering clothing & not having showered for days, plugging away and trying to hit a deadline. One guy, an acquaintance, actually sat down across from me in a library not long ago and quietly started telling me a filthy (and, I must admit, rather exciting) story. Professors used to tell me blue jokes and show up at my apartment with bottles of wine. I’ve had more than my share of jewelry, flowers, proposals, dinners with various parents. Was once picked up on a train and brought to shipboard party for a dignitary, and been taken out for birthday champagne by an ambassador. I’ve been kissed by a piano tuner. I remember going through some years of wondering what in hell brought all this on, until an ex-boyfriend yelled the answer at me. According to him, it’s because I a) don’t immediately give men dirty looks; b) look like I like sex. Oh. I do, of course, but I hadn’t realized there was a look.
In case my grooming habits haven’t been adequately described, I’ll just add that I’m a short, graying middle-aged mother whose fashion sense is pitiable. I’m in good shape, and not fat, but I’m no 19. I don’t wear makeup, and apparently my default expression is “pissed off”. (I’m not, but that’s how it looks when I’m thinking.) I don’t know where my hairdryer is, and truth be told if I forget about it for a few weeks I do get just the tiniest bit mustachey. None of this seems to matter. I’d assumed all the attraction would’ve worn off by now, but my advisor’s just invited me to lunch because he wants to hear about the master’s thesis I wrote years & years ago, or so he says. I don’t believe him for a moment. Nobody is ever genuinely interested in someone else’s thesis.
Anyway. My message of hope to all you non-photoshopped-looking gals is: Do not worry. You have everything the men want already. Relax, and you’ll see.
hunter 128
Amy, you lucky soul.
John 129
Plain and simple.
If you’re an average so-so looking woman, and you give off signs that you’re interested in having sex with the guy, chances are he’ll want you.
Sayanta 130
According to him, I don’t immediately, a) give men dirty looks…
THAT’s what I’m doing wrong!
Michael 131
Really? Six foot-plus men prefer petite women?.hhhmmmhhh. I have noticed, that petite women try harder/make themselves available/use obvious body language, to get a mans attention.
I can not disagree with this.
Most men would ignore petite women.
JerseyGirl 132
I don’t get ignored and I am quite petite. Infact, more tall men than short ones hit on me. Now if you don’t liek petite women, I can understand that Michael and that’s cool. But to say most men would ignore petite women sounds strange and is untrue.
Barry 133
I think this article overlooks the true reason for the apparent shallowness of the male of the species: it’s to our evolutionary advantage to behave exactly this way. There have been many attempts at empirical studies to determine what physical qualities define female beauty, and the overall concensus is that many of these very same qualities…symmetry, youth, ample gender-specific attributes…are all indicators of a genetically healthy partner of ideal breeding age. Not romantic, I know, but good for the species as a whole.
That doesn’t make us less shallow for pursuing these qualities. A good part of moral character demands that we all rise above our baser instincts. But those instincts are not inherently evil. They are simply geared towards survival. And they’re pretty strong.
So, you are correct: the male interest in the “hot chick” is not going away any time soon. Neither is the status seeking female, who instinctively wants to assure a safe and bountiful nest for her offspring. I think the best we can do is learn to accept these qualities in eachother, while trying to remember that part of what makes us human is our ability to ignore our animal instincts when it may serve a greater good.
JerseyGirl 134
There is nothing wrong with wanting someone attractive or finacially well off. However, as a woman, I’ve seen so many cases where men are just completely unrealistic about real women their bodies and their expectations. It’snot just about these features anymore. There is a huge part ofexpectations women are suppose to fit into that are completely unrealistic. Which I think largely has to do with the male media men entrench themselves in as far as images of Maxim or porn. Even the women in those magazines don’t look liek that and yet averagejoes think that’s what women’s bodies should be.
I post on another message board. There was a young woman of 20 that just broke up with her boyfriend because he kept asking her to get implants. By her accounts, she has saggy breasts and he told her so and was not happy. So many of the men came on that thread and were really quite nasty towards her telling her she shouldn’t have saggy breasts at 20. It was very telling that these men had no concept of what a real woman’s body is. Most breasts sag because breasts are just fat, not silcone. You’re breasts can sag at 18 or 19.
Personally, I’ve heard the “we are animals and this is nature” argument too many times for it to have any real sway anymore. Often, I think this gets used as a justifcation for unreal expectations more then it does as an explanation of the real *nature* of men or women.
sayanta 135
yeah- I also have noticed that short women are usually the ones who get ‘snatched up’ first.
A-L 136
If people are dancing, yeah, the short woman will be the first to be “snatched up” and put in the air. But as far as dating goes, not necessarily. Some tall guys find it uncomfortable having to lean far down (though certainly not all). And some average to shorter guys aren’t interested in short women because they fear that their children (particularly sons) will have no hope whatsoever of being taller and will face the problems that short men face. In fact, my 5’7-8″ boyfriend used to be of that mindset. But he’s changed his mind.
All this to say that shorties aren’t necessarily persecuted, but they’re not at the top of the totem pole either. I’d probably say 5-4″-5’7″ gets top selection as being neither too tall nor too short.
leah 137
Woman here, OBVIOUSLY men are attracted to the hottest women they can get – why wouldnt they be?? Why is this even a question??
That being sad, i think the real problem is that women are told not to be that concered with looks, to be more deeper, more about the substance. Like someone earlier mentioned – “Women are supposed to be less shallow”. WHY? this is what bugs me..i think women have continuesly beencultured ( and im not sayingin the 21st century as obviously we have seen some progress, although old mores die slowly)disregard their sexual needs. THAT’s the real problem.
now, i am woman, and i am shallow. and not shallow in the way that i want a man with money. on no gentelmen – I WANT A HOT MAN. there, i sad it. and im not ashamed about it. I’m sorry but i cant help being attracted to who i am attracted to. end of story.
Michael17 138
Well, my take is a bit different from the replies I’ve read so far:
I feel that it does go both ways, just not in what most people were saying. Yes, men are attracted to looks, and average-looking women–who would make these great wives and moms–complain that men are shallow and don’t go for them. Just as women are attracted to powerful masculine energy (they call it “chemistry”), and so “nice guys”–who would make these great husbands and dads–complain that women are crazy and don’t go for them, instead going for the bad boy who has lot of issues.
(Money doesn’t keep a woman around, and it doesn’t even really attract a woman. I’ve been in a relationship with a woman who stood by me for a year when I was unemployed and living with my parents. And now that my career/finances are well under control, I know I have gotten passed up more than once for a guy who takes home a much smaller paycheck. )
Anyway, just as it is unattractive for a “nice guy” to complain about how women don’t find him attractive, it is unattractive for a woman with plain looks to complain about how men don’t find her attractive. The good news is that everyone has a different physical type, and you can make yourself look much better by going to the gym, dressing up nicely, good hygiene, and so on.
Hedgehog 139
Thanks very much for this, I’ve read a few of your articles and found them all to be fair and well considered.
That said. I am a 39 year old single woman. I don’t expect to be in a relationship again and I am saddened beyond belief but not really surprised that the sexual part of my life is over.
I suppose I’m asking for suggestions as to how to come to terms with this.
In case you’re wondering, from 26 to 33 I was in an abusive relationship. By the time I managed to extricate myself everyone had either come out or got married (sometimes both LOL).
I just don’t see a way to compete with women half my age when thats what my target demographic want. All the workouts and face creams aren’t going to change that.
I love socialising although I’m not a big drinker, cycling and sports, have many friends and no hangups about divorcees and am financially self supporting but have no love life. Its just sad really. Feels like all I’ve got left is to hang around for the next forty years trying not to get in the way. So, what can I do to come to terms with this? Get a cat?
aaa 140
i dont know if this stuff about guys only being interested in a woman’s looks and not career is true. ever since i started to have a better career men started to become more interested in me. i work in the arts too so maybe some guys are into that. i dont know. what i can tell you for sure is that these guys were not into me when i was an intern.
by the way, i think the trick for oldedr women is to be ok with meeting younger men or older men. ive noticed even at my age (AND IM ONLY 28), that guys my age will want to go out with girls 5 years younger. So what do I do? I go out with guys five years younger too.
if you cant beat em’, join em.
Sonia 141
Well, this is kinda depressing. But realistic. So what you’re saying is, women should either accept that men will always look for the hotter women and go along with it, or else try to make a happy life being single and drama-free. Sounds like a winning plan to me – the ‘remaining single’ part. Too late for me at this moment. I found a guy who I thought was a winner – interestingly, he’s NOT a high roller, he just was kind and a good listener and funny and we have a lot in common and our sex drives are the same (mine’s higher) - and now, he tells me almost everyday about a hot girl he saw that day or about a girl he either pursued or else banged in the past. We have an infant son. I can never say I regret meeting him, because I am so thankful for our son – and for him, during the moments when he’s not talking about other women. But when he cheats – not if – I’ll be able to understand why and leave him peacefully: because men seek 10s, and if you’re not a 10 (I’m sure as hell not, I might weight 125lbs at 5’4″, but I don’t remember the last time he said I was beautiful, pretty, OR hot), then get used to the idea that you’re not enough.
jan 142
to Sonia:
im in my late 30′s. and im married to a guy who just truned 30.. weve been together for 3 years and hes gotten abusive and he never tells me im pretty or beautiful, NEVER said I was hot either.. I’m getting ready to pack up and leave town with divorce papers on the table. I think that’s emotional abuse to never say nice things to your partner and i think its disgusting for people to stay with another person without manning up about their real feelings. If it doesn’t feel right with someone and you never feel good enough, i think its emotional abuse. And you have to get the hell out of there!
Belinda 143
Ron, you’ve got it all backwards. When someone is shallow it means they judge others based on something that they can’t control and has little or nothing to do with their personality. What kind of a job a man has or the money he makes, says allot more about personality than our looks. It says he’s likely hard working, goal oriented, and responsible all in one answer. Its more shallow to judge women on something that we are much less able to control. I think you are making a generalization about both men and women though, and I don’t see what support you have for judging on looks being better in any way, besides you restating that it is so over and over.
Jill 144
I dated a guy who dated a girl who was in maxim, and though I was intimidated by the fact that her attractiveness was validated by the magazine, I didn’t actually think she was that hot in real life. I also realized that many women, myself included, could be done up and made up and put in that magazine. I also dated another guy who’s ex was a former miss USA! I started to think ‘what the heck, why do I keep dating guys who are obviously looking for one thing” but then I thought, maybe I’m in that league? Or maybe they are just attracted to me? I think that most people want someone super hot to date, but sometimes the ones who are so hot are not the ones you are attracted to for some reason. I think these men who are 5′s are insecure and want to show that they can get with a 10 despite their lack of good looks, but I’ve noticed guys who are 10s don’t always go for the most gorgeous girl beause it’s not a big deal to them, they know they can get a hotter girl but they want the one they are with. This isn’t always the case but it’s just what I’ve noticed…….What I worry is that someone who is above average in attractiveness, like myself, of tv looks or even model caliber, will still not be good enough for a man. Like he will say oh yeah she’s an 8 but not a 9, or she’s as pretty as Eva Mendes but she’s not a super model…I mean…isn’t a certain level of pretty ENOUGH????
Jamie 145
come on people! Don’t you know that the women in Maxim don’t look like that? I mean they’re not ugly, and some do have great bodies, but the majority is all fake. And the women in porn are mostly just good bodies, with some exceptions… anyone can work out and have a good body. I’m not saying that anyone can be a super model or movie star type, but any “average” girl can make herself look hot by working out and wearing the right clothes and makeup. How many times have you seen that annoying bitch in the club who you don’t think is hot but she has a flat tummy and great eyes or some other feature that stands out. My brother said to me, you see a girl and maybe she isn’t pretty, but she has nice eyes, and she’s wearing makeup so you just see oooh eyes, and she has confidence, so she’s hot. TRUST ME. I’m a model and actress, and while I am pretty I do not look like my photos and there are other girls, less pretty than me, who can be made to look better, and girls who are prettier, who don’t always look that great. “Sex appeal is 50 percent what you’ve got and 50 percent what people think you’ve got!” -Sophia Loren
Hadley Paige 146
RE: Jill @ 144 “isn’t a certain level of pretty ENOUGH???? “
Speaking for myself (who, if I mayhopefully say without being perceived as obnoxious, is in a fairly datable category – educated, lawyer, relatively sane, relatively presentable, on good terms w ex, children in college, no alimony, children & animals like me, own house, etc — meaning I am not desperate & don’t find it difficult to get into relationships w women) not only is a certain level of pretty good enough, but I have arrived at the point in my life (50) where there is such a thing as too pretty.
Yes, I have found REALLY attractive women are (speaking generally) too entitled, too difficult & too hung up on how they look. The fact that life has been easier for them due to their attractiveness has enabled them to avoid the painful but necessary personal growth & development that is forced upon most of us.
So I actually avoid extremely attractive women & seek out women who are attractive enough for me. And I hear this from other men who have been “out there” for a while, as well.
Bottom Line> spend the minimum necessary energy to be attractive enough & focus the balance of your energy & time on being a better person. Come to think of it that’s advice both sexes can use.
still looking 147
Hadley @146 -
It probably took me a year of dating to come to the same conclusion that you reached. While typing this the old auto rental commercial popped into my mind – “We’re #2 so we try harder.”
Jill 148
@Hadley
I guess what worries me…is that these guys thought “whew okay, I am sick of these obnoxious hot girls so I’ll date this ok looking one instead, cause it’s easier,” all the while wishing I was better looking. People kept telling me that I was in the same league or that those men would not have been with me if I wasn’t attractive, but I felt like they were settling because they didn’t want the headache. When an ex boyfriend said to me “I know that looks are important, I know, but they aren’t the most important thing in the world, there’s other things going in on in life” and I said “but you dated a girl for years who’s job it was to look pretty” and he said “yeah well why do you think we broke up? It just became all about looks” but meanwhile the first time he ever mentioned anything with why they broke up was because he stopped being attracted to her. So I wonder if she was really that hot, or she was hot enough but just that insecure about it, like me. :-p
Jill 149
Oh my point, I didn’t get to it, is that I don’t want to date someone thinking “oh he’s great and he thinks I’m so pretty!” but deep down he’s thinking “I’ve dated hotter girls, but she’ll do”
Margaret 150
I don’t know. I look at Tiger Woods’ ex, Elin Nordegren. IMHO, she is incredibly beautiful. Yet, the Tiger cheated on her repeatedly, with arguably less attractive women. There goes your argument that the truly beautiful women have a smoother course in love.
Actually, the women I envy the most are very average-looking, and happily married to men I would love to have.
I appreciate Evan’s perspective, but I do continue to believe he has a rather NYC-LA perspective. Which is OK.
Evan Marc Katz 151
@Jill – We have dated hotter girls, and yes, you’ll do. Once you accept that, you might find you’re in a happy relationship. But if you are under the delusion that you’re going to be the hottest and the smartest and the funniest and the kindest and the most generous and the most creative woman he’s ever dated, you’ve got another thing coming. Good relationships don’t require the kind of lies you want your boyfriend to tell.
Hadley Paige 152
RE: Jill @ 148
“I felt like they were settling because they didn’t want the headache. “
In my opinion they are not settling for you. They have matured and realized that looks are not their #1 concern with all else is being distant 2nd. They have reevaluated their want list for a successful relationship and re-prioritized the list with new weightings. They should be commended for that, not condemned bc they are allegedly settling.
You are the winner in that re-evaluation– enjoy it. If you spend the energy you will always find things to obsess about in a relationship–not helpful for you or the relationship. Don’t beat your self up with self doubt– its a road to nowhere (thank you David Byrne).
Joe 153
Jill, haven’t you heard the old adage, “for every hot woman out there, there’s a guy who’s tired of f—ing her”?
Jill 154
Well initially I worried that I wasn’t pretty enough but then when I saw other girls he dated, I realized that it was the opposite, that I was (with one guy in particular not all of them) but perhaps he ONLY dates a certain type of girl, and then feels entitled to things, or doesn’t settle down and just gets bored of one and moves on. So yeah Joe, I suppose I became the girl he got tired of…:-/ He sometimes said, the prettier a girl the crazier she is, and would motion to me. And I wanted to say “but I’m crazy cause I love you!” sigh.
I didn’t expect him to lie to me about how I looked, I was more worried that it bothered him, if say, I wasn’t good enough, because I thought if he has dated so many pretty girls, myself included, but not stayed with them, is he really that picky? But I think I’ve realized now that he was sick of pretty girls who were insecure, and that while he wasn’t going to lower his standards for a less attractive girl he was looking for other things as well, but at the time I just didn’t believe him. I didn’t believe that anything else mattered to him.
Helen 155
Jill, I think men in general are a lot LESS shallow than you give them credit for. Don’t assume that looks are all they care about, and don’t obsess about your own looks so much. When it comes to LTRs, looks matter least of all. It’s personality that counts.
Nicole 156
It’s so funny…when you read comment threads like this, you’d think that only super models got and stayed married.
Funny, when I’m out, I see people who are average, below average, all shapes and sizes, with partners and spouses who clearly adore them and a percentage of them will be together until one of them dies. That’s how every person doesn’t wind up dumped when they inevitably change physically, whether it is hair, weight, or age.
It’s so sad that so many people believe that everyone is as shallow as they are. Lots of beautiful people will die alone, and lots of “ugly” people will die surrounded by people who love them. And no matter what you do, your external beauty will fade.
Why not accept that the person who picks you does think that you are a “hot” girl or at least an “attractive” girl and don’t worry about how you “measure up” to the last girlfriend or to all of womankind. I’m sure that some cocky self-proclaimed 10′s think that every guy they see walking around with a 3 wishes he could upgrade, but plenty of those men see what they have as being better than you, and no, not b/c they are ugly and less likely to leave or have options.
I kind of dislike attempts to quantify beauty b/c so much of it is based on race, ethnicity, and what is presented as beautiful in your particular society, so just understand that just b/c one group of people thinks you are a 10, another group might think you are a -5, and assume that your dating pool will be people who perceive you to be more attractive.
Jill 157
Nicole, that was a really good post, and it actually made me feel a lot better
AnonymousWoman 158
My opinion is that a pretty face will definitely get you noticed by men, but will it guarantee marriage? Nope.
I know stunningly beautiful girls that are lonely, whereas the averagely cute girl easily snagged a man. What makes the difference? Personality, confidence and the willingness to be supportive and nurturing to a man. You could be a beautiful woman that’s insecure and needy, whereas the plain jane with a cute smile could be confident, carry herself well and is overall secure within her relationship. Which girl do you think someone will choose as their life partner?
Janelle 159
Ron,
It’s interesting that you state men cannot help that they’re attracted to biology and women are about something else.
You need to be corrected.
Both men and women are visual creatures and base their physical attraction someone on their appearance.
A nice guy is not going to be physically attractive because being nice is a character quality not a buff muscle, large penis, or nice hair.
If men cannot help that they’re attracted to biology, then that would leave them pretty powerless creatures to want to mate with something that just looks good. There’s exception to every rule.
For example, some men have sex with animals and children. Where is the biology in that? Women do this as well but not ..nearly…as much.
Think of it as a preference or sexual fetish.
It is a fetish to want a woman with a small waist and big boobs just as much as it is to want any other sized woman (because people come in all shapes and sizes).
Think about that.
Mike 160
@ Janelle #159
“A nice guy is not going to be physically attractive because being nice is a character quality not a buff muscle, large penis, or nice hair.”
I will beg to differ slightly in so much as the next time you are parsing through a magazine of Cosmo or GQ or whatever rags women read (mens equiv. of MAXIM) you will realize you are indeed attracted first and foremost at a physical level.
You see a strong chiseled jaw, 5 oclock shadow, dark wet haired, peircing baby blue eyes, high brows, looking just off to the left of the camera. There’s a bottle of mens cologne in the page but you’re oblivious to the fact it’s there. You’re imagining and projecting feelings and emotions into this man. You’re thinking “whats he looking at, whats he thinking about, i wonder if likes jogging by the lake, does he like puppies, he must, he looks like a dog person” and on and on…
the guy could be a total asshat, but you will go to the ends of the earth to mask his flaws if you are visually stimulated by him.
same goes for guys. they let good looking women get away with murder, quite literally. i’ve known so many guys (myself included) who let good looking women do and say stupid things we wouldn’t let others get away with or behaviors that we found inappropriate. it’s the same survival mechanism babies have, especially puppies and baby seals. ever notice how everyone goes ‘awwwww’ their so bloody cute you can’t imagine ever hurting them.
Character is subjective and partially obscured by what our personal stake in the matter is. He’s a ‘nice guy’ because you want him to be nice because you are attracted to him. If you’re not attracted to him, he’s creepy, or needy, or just gross. To know a persons real character, see how he treats his family.
As for the main point of the post, since i have started working out, put on muscle and lost the fat, and getting more compliments from coworkers and glances, my standards have risen in that i try and find someone who has a fit and active lifestyle like my own now. But the same concept applies, i would rather have sweet girl with an average frame that just has ‘cuteness’ instead of blaring hotness because i’ve come to learn that the more hot a woman perceives herself, the more trouble i can expect down the road in an LTR.
Joe 161
@ Jill #154:
Here’s another saying: you gotta get on it before the crazy outweighs the hot.
amy 162
A woman who carries herself well, is fun, laid-back, happy and playful is sure to get men no matter what she looks like. Period.
davidblake 163
Oh please men are much more shallow than women looks wise, but lets face it if you have ever gone for higher then your number you are just as shallow, if an average man tries it on with a very good looking women and she sends him packing in the first few seconds who is the shallow one? well its the man, dont punch past your own wait or you are just as shallow, in any relationship heck every relationship there will be a reacher and a settler if your less attractive you are the reacher, you reach as high as you can, the settler is the better looking or more desirable in general, so the question is not why you are not getting the best looking men/women when your plain, its why you think you deserve them, and why plain is not good enough for you, if you are not happy with your number, and go higher well heres some tough love you are shallow, no buts its a fact.
JB 164
Wow, this is a crazy post!
Here it is in a nutshell
Women require;
Height
money
status/ambition
hair
attractiveness
A bit of an “edge”
decent physique
Men require;
attractiveness
fit physique
kind/caring
Ladies, if guys didn’t care/appreciate how you look and how you take care of yourself, there would be NOTHING to separate the tiers of women. Anyone women could have any man and then all the hours you spend taking care of yourself and looking good would be useless. How fair would that be?
Guys have to compensate for at least one item on my list, looks, height, hair etc…If a guy has EVERYTHING, he’s going to hold out for the best because he can. Evan has stated this on numerous occasions.
Just my two cents
Goldie 165
@ JB
“Ladies, if guys didn’t care/appreciate how you look and how you take care of yourself, there would be NOTHING to separate the tiers of women.”
This, as my teenage son would say, is redunculous. Is this supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek comment or something? I agree 100% that men are visual, but this is taking it to a whole new level. Kinda like..
“Guys, if women didn’t care/appreciate how much you make, there would be NOTHING to separate the tiers of men. Any man could have any woman and then all the hours you spend making money and earning raises would be useless. How fair would that be?” See what I did here?
Also, my list maybe only matches your “women require…” by 50%, if that. Which to me means that everyone has different lists. Just because I don’t fit Ryan Gosling’s list, doesn’t mean I don’t fit anyone’s.
I think Amy #163 has it right. If a woman takes basic care of herself, carries herself with confidence, and is fun to be around, she will be seen as attractive enough to pursue and to want to be with, even if she doesn’t have model looks.
JB 166
Goldie
I totally agree with you, if she’s fun to be around and takes care of herself, she will have plenty of suitors….
what’s your take on what men need to be to get plenty of suitors?
Kay 167
I’ve read a lot of great comments and I can honestly say I don’t require any of those things, I don’t care about height, weight, money but men seem to always require me to look a certain way no matter if he’s a 2, 5 or a 10..
I’m not shallow but I’m lumped in with all the shallow women and over looked. I’m beautiful but I’m black so yeah that takes me out of the dating pool because society even today says we are the least desirable, black men are not dating black women, white men may date us but I think it’s more recreational curiosity than it is serious and forget about dating Indian or Asian.
This society sucks and it’s completely understandable why women FAKE a personality a man will be attracted to rather than be herself.
I can’t tell you how many ebooks and newsletters I get from men like Evan and Rori Raye and Christian Carter and count less others but the reality is if you’re not a certain type dating is very difficult be it a man or a woman and if you’re not a white female/interracial female it’s damn near impossible, if you’re black in shape, healthy or voluptuous bordering on chunky or just over weight, educated, uneducated forget about it. I’ve been celibate for years, I’m educated, attractive, I have standards but not too high and I don’t care about money, dress appropriate, I’m empathetic, loving but of course I’m sexualized by men, I’m made to feel like I’m not good enough for love, I’m just good for some jungle love in the sack, a good time. I never thought I’d see the day were I wasn’t even considered girlfriend material.
I don’t date anymore…
Evan Marc Katz 168
I’ll answer you, JB.
You know what women want? To be SAFE, HEARD and UNDERSTOOD by men.
And any guy who simply talks about a woman in terms of how young, thin and hot she is – well, he’s not being the optimal boyfriend.
Women don’t care about your washboard abs as much as you do.
Women don’t care about your money as much as you do.
Women want to feel SAFE, HEARD and UNDERSTOOD.
Do that and you can have any (good) woman out there.
Saint Stephen 169
@Kay
That’s a serious generalizations u just made. The vast majority of black men date and get married to black women, and no I’m not just referring to the uneducated deadbeat slackers and peddlers, but the educated and successful and sophisticated ones. The one’s who exclusively date whites i believe are in the minority.
And u might also have to evaluate the men u dated. I’d advise u to go for men of high character, that’s if u ever consider getting back into the dating scene again. Men of high character wont sexualize you.
Saint Stephen 170
Evan
With all due respect. I think it’s more appropriate for you to let a woman/women answer the question, since you aren’t one. You can’t speak on behalf of men and on behalf of women too…
Evan Marc Katz 171
With all due respect, Stephen, the reason I have this job is because I’ve been talking to women on the phone for four hours a day for 8 years.
Check out my Facebook page if you think that I was off with my assessment: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Evan-Marc-Katz-Americas-Leading-Dating-Expert/23002636685
Still Looking 172
Uh oh…. I’ve spent my entire life trying to understand women
Kay 173
@Saint Stephen
Generalizations are my reality when it comes to dating my own race and outside of my race, it may be generalizations for some people but for me it’s REAL, it’s a real reality I have to live in every day. I’ve met women that went overseas to find love in other countries like Italy and with other nationalities in other countries, I know there is a place were I will be loved and appreciated for my beauty.
I don’t pick a man for what he has and how tall he is and how much money he has but I encounter more and more men no matter if he’s successful or not wanting 7′s or better, white with blue eyes, if not black she has to fit in the exotic box. I’m not from Africa so yeah that takes me out of the exotic pool. What about just being black? Isn’t that good enough. So many negative stereotypes come with being a black woman it’s unreal.
I’m not a 7 least no IMO but I’m attractive but somehow that’s not good enough when it comes to forming a long term relationship that leads into marriage.
I don’t think I’ll date an American man, too shallow for me. I’m hoping to move out of the US and broaden my opportunities, in this country I am not wanted. I feel like a foreign outsider in a country I’ve lived in all of my life the USA.
I never thought it would be so hard for me and yes I’ve done everything I can to improve my attitude, my body, my looks and my life, I don’t buy ebooks and talk to relationship counselors and work hard at this for nothing.
Thanks for your feedback….
Zaq 174
Evan
Women need SAFE, HEARD and UNDERSTOOD
Women want TALL, DARK, HANDSOME, RICH
And studies have shown time and time again that what women say they are attracted to is significantly different to what actually attracts them.
Also attraction is not a choice, so no one is shallow.
Kay probably would find it easier outside the USA.
I have to say though that I have a friend who is not particularly attractive for her age, and few men her age will consider her (except gamma males) She is however attractive to older men.
If she could compromise she would get a boyfriend.
Most of us could find a mate if we dropped the bar sufficiently. Tragically, this is very very difficult to do in practice
Greg 175
@Kay
As a black man, I feel that your part of your own problem. With such a negative outlook you will get negative results. I like black women, and there are many people who do. I know plenty of married black women my age which is late 20′s. They are mostly married to black men. Two are married to white men. Stop listening to negative statistics and stereotypes. You haven’t even met .01% of men in America. Just because you dealt with a few shallow men doesn’t mean all or even most men are shallow. I’m tired of hearing whiny diatribes about how black men don’t date black women. It’s not true, and you need to stop believing it. All my black friends have dated black women, and every male in my family who is married happened to marry a black woman.
Kay 176
@Greg
I’m not in my own way, I know that, I’ve been at this for awhile and I know that my attitude appear negative but the reality is, I’m happy and I’m realistic, I’ve been out there, I’ve dated so until you walk in my shoes don’t judge. It’s not easy, I haven’t given up on myself but I won’t subject myself to painful experiences if I don’t have to. Dating and love is supposed to be fun no painful.
Yes I made some generalizations and I’m educated enough to know those generalizations do not apply to every one and thank God for that, I wouldn’t want anyone to see and be in my shoes, it’s not fun and it’s not necessary to have to go through so much to get a date or a boyfriend or a husband for that matter.
I’m listening to anyone but me and I know I’ve seen what I know with my own eyes, it’s easy to tell someone oh you’re negative when I’ve been nothing but positive but if I say a truth, a fact then I’m the problem.
I’m confident that I’ve done and am still doing everything I can to be a better ME all of the time, I don’t just lay back and be lazy about this, this is my life and if it’s not easy well it’s not easy, I haven’t given up, I just won’t get very far here in the USA so I’m broadening my options and IMO that is being positive and taking positive steps to improve my odds to have a great man in my life.
This isn’t just about black men, it’s about men in general and yes I believe men in the USA are shallow, are very hard to be with and commitmentphobic and these are GOOD men, these aren’t bad boys and losers and pick up artist, even the good men are turning out to be just as shallow as the bad ones. I’m not sure what the hell is going on but I don’t want any part of it.
And good for you for having positive black men in your life but you are not the norm or the majority least not were I come from and no I’m not ghetto and I don’t live in the hood, I’m an educated beautiful black woman, positive role models and believe in living a healthy full positive life that doesn’t have a problem being vulnerable and allowing a man to be a man.
I can’t speak for every black woman, I’m speaking for me and this is my experience and there is nothing you can say to change that, that’s my responsibility not yours.
Kay 177
Sorry for the typo’s meant to say…
Dating and love is supposed to be fun not painful.
I’m NOT listening to anyone but me
Greg 178
Kay,
In my experience women I know who assume negative things about men, that they are commitment phobic, selfish etc are usually drawn to the wrong types of men. You sound exactly like a very beautiful, educated girl I used to know. Bachelors degree and private school educated. She always got involved with morons and then complained that relationships were not worth it and that men were garbage. Her father was not in her life and she had no clue what a good man looked like or how to even find one. When I gave her some advice she accused me of being a know-it-all and trying to tell her what to do. Needless to say she is still miserable and very bitter. She would rather have her beliefs validated that all men are trash, and waste time trying to make crappy relationships work. She also had unrealistic expectations and always blamed everyone else for her problems. We obviously are no longer friends, even though we were once very close and traveled the world together. I’m just warning you not to be like my former friend. But since you’re already decided that you won’t listen to anyone, I can only pray that you can change your attitude.
Kay 179
@Greg
I’m not assuming. This is MY experience take it or leave it Greg.
I’m not against advice, I read Rori Raye, Evan Marckatz, Michael Fiore, Christian Carter, Steve Harvey and count less others, I’m not against taking help nor am I resistant to OWN my issues and take RESPONSIBILITY for my behavior and attitude so you see it’s not about me not allowing others to help me, it’s not about changing my behavior and attitude because I’ve done that and then some and I’m still doing that, it’s more about MY reality and what I’ve encountered. I don’t date douche bags although I’ve encountered a few, I don’t do FWB relationships so no I’m not jilted or scorned or bitter.
I have sought out one on one relationship coaching and up until recently I had a great coach so you see I’m not NOT taking control of my love life but my encounters have been less than favorable, no ones fault, not blaming anyone. It’s a fact least for me it is.
I’m not some walking wounded soul that doesn’t do anything to pull herself up and help herself so yeah you got me all wrong. Maybe try to understand me rather than disagree with me, try empathy and understanding instead of debating my experience.
My expectations were once unrealistic I admit many moons ago, I’ve toned it down, I understand that I didn’t understand men, I’ve worked on understanding men for the past few years, I’m good in that area, my expectations are balanced.
I’m not blaming anyone, men are men and although I call them shallow I’m not necessarily saying they are bad, they are who and what they are so yeah I take ownership of my life and if I choose to broaden my options because I feel the men in the US are shallow well that’s my opinion and if you read through these comments you’ll see I’m not the only one who feel this way.
I’ve listened to you, I understand what you’re saying and yet you FAIL to understand me and that’s your problem not mine.
Instead of telling me I won’t listen because I’ve decided that I won’t listen, do me a favor read and empathize and understand that’s if you even take the time to read my statements…
Greg 180
Kay,
I’m not debating your experience. I’m just saying that your experience is limited. You have only experienced a few US men. You can’t judge everyone by your small sample size.
For example would it be fair for someone to pass judgment on an entire ethnic group based on their bad experiences with a few members of that ethnic group? After all their bad experience is their PERSONAL reality. They’ve never met any pleasant members of that ethnic group, so is it fair for them to assume that most or all members of that group are bad? I’m guessing you would say no it wouldn’t be fair for them to judge an entire group. However, this is exactly what you’re doing. You’re being emotional instead of logical.
Rachel 181
Not sure I entirely agree with men being into women on the basis of looks. I know some pretty women who are single and not so pretty women who are engaged. I like to think that personality plays a large part but then I am pretty plain.
Nicole 182
No Rachel you are right. Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder so just b/c you don’t think someone is pretty or handsome doesn’t mean that the person with them feels that they are settling or picked someone who can never leave.
At any rate, the idea that all men hold one for “pretty” or the same kind of “pretty” is just not true. No matter what your own standards are for beauty, they are not going to be universally agreed upon.
Personality matters, and beauty if subjective. I’m not sure why everyone refuses to believe what they see in real life, which is that people of varying levels of attractiveness wind up in long-term, loving relationships.
Still Looking 183
Greg @ 180
I agree with you in principle but almost all of us stereotype to some extent.
Women on this blog are cautioned to stay away from the alpha male 10s; the “Pity the Pretty” blog is full of stereotypes; and I admit that I am now quite averse to dating women who I assume have had a pampered existence because I assume they will be high maintenance.
Can you honestly state that you don’t stereotype, to some degree, the women you date based on looks, occupation, income level, former husband’s occupation, etc. ?
Helen 184
I’m average. I’ve been married as happily as one could expect (there are always occasional bumps in marriages) for 13 years. You don’t need to be smoking hot. You want to know what works? Striving to be happy, and showing constant appreciation for your beloved.
Kay 185
@Greg
” For example would it be fair for someone to pass judgment on an entire ethnic group based on their bad experiences with a few members of that ethnic group? ”
No it’s not fair but it’s a REALITY, my reality. Have you ever been pulled over for being black or stopped by the cops for just walking down the street in an affluent neighborhood? Have been harshly judged for being a black man in the US? Maybe you haven’t but what about your male family members and/or male friends who have been subjected to unfair but real experiences in their own lives.
Listen I’m not attempting to get off topic and I didn’t create the stereotypes about black women but unfortunately I have to be in it, live it breathe it and experience and until you can say you know how that feels I don’t think what you’re saying is really relevant to my experiences.
Josephine Baker is a prime example, she couldn’t make it in America for the very same stereotypes about black women we experience today and went over to France and she literally was treated like royalty! It’s all about location IMO and if a black woman or any woman for that matter can’t get past the stereotypes then she must move on to a place were she is more accepted. In America she faced racism and was very limited so she decided to go to France and in France she was considered the most sensational woman anyone ever saw. My point being is my reality is going to be so much different than someone else’s reality and that’s okay, I’m not here telling anyone to buck up, you’re negative, I’m not here minimizing someone else’s experience. I inevitably plan to follow in her footsteps and branch out into the world, I’m certain there is more to offer than what I’ve experienced here.
There are many women here that feel the same way in a different but similar context. So Greg let’s not debate this because honestly you can’t relate, and you probably never will be able to, you’d have to be a black woman to relate and that you’re not.
Kay 186
@Greg
” However, this is exactly what you’re doing. You’re being emotional instead of logical ”
Oh and the emotional vs logical, seem like a passive aggressive put down as if my emotions doesn’t render me a logical thinking human being and this is why I don’t date men in the US, men like you are everywhere, I could throw a coin on the street and touch a couple of you in a matter of seconds. My emotions or my logic has nothing to do with my experience. I’m not crying or losing control, I’m saying men in the US are shallow and if you read through these comments I’m not the only woman whose said this and if what I’m saying doesn’t apply to you then we shouldn’t really be having this discussion.
You do know that women can be emotional and logical all at the same time? We have that ability Greg, I know some men are limited and can only focus on one thing, one emotion at a time but fortunately women are great at multitasking her life and her emotional life as well.
Greg 187
Of course I stereotype people. It’s a human tendency. However, not everyone conforms to a stereotype, so I try to not buy into stereotypes. Based on my personal experience I could easily believe that all women love jerks. However I know that in actuality there are women who despise jerks and are looking for a healthy relationship
Greg 188
Kay,
Go ahead to Europe. I think you will find though that men are men everywhere. America didn’t invent racism. Racism/classism/hatred is everywhere and has been around throughout human history. You can’t escape it just by moving.
Your Josephine Baker argument is moot because although she didn’t have success in America other black women during her time period did. Today artists like Kelly Rowland and Kelis don’t get major airplay here in America but do much better in Europe. Yet other black artists like Kelly Rowland’s former bandmate Beyonce and talentless hack (in my opinion) Rihanna dominate the US charts in music. Some peoples music is just more appealing to Europeans. It’s not that Europeans love black people more than Americans. Would Oprah be a billionaire in Europe? Probably not, because her type of show isn’t as popular there. Yes racism DOES still exist, but black women in American can STILL succeed and get married.
I also wasn’t making a put down. Emotional and logic many times are different. My emotional response based on MY REALITY is that most women are shallow, status-loving, jerk loving and only want men over 6 feet tall. However, the logical side of me knows that not all women are like that. The evidence is all around me as I see short men, who aren’t jerks and who don’t make 6 figures get married. My dad is only 5’6″ and has been married 30+ years while his much taller brother has been through several bad relationships.
Finally I would note that Helen and Nicole just made great comments. Average looking women get married all the time. The funny thing is that out of the pretty women I grew up with or dated, only 1 of them is still married (all are under 30 years old). The rest married cheating jerks and quickly got divorced, or they wasted or are still wasting time in dead end relationships with guys who won’t commit. However the average women I know have had much better relationship success and are still married while the pretty ones are still looking for dates. Just goes to show that looks aren’t everything.
Kay 189
@Greg
Why is it an issue for you? I’m taking a couple of years off to live and travel and hopefully meet a great guy. I’m taking control of my love life and I see nothing wrong with that.
As I said before if my shallow comment doesn’t apply to you then you shouldn’t really be offended nor defensive about this subject.
If I don’t fit into the category of black women that don’t succeed in marriage in the US then it’s up to me to change that. I appreciate you taking the time to respond but let’s not make this out of a huge debate and go on and on.
I’ve traveled and I know I’m deemed as beautiful and valuable as any other race of woman and now I’m making that move more permanent and I’m happy to say there is a huge community of black women doing the exact same thing I am doing and I feel it’s justified, no one should have to go without love and/or a loving partner, there is somebody for everybody and if that somebody happens to be in another country on another continent then so be it. Men travel, meet women in Russia, Brazil, China, Korea, all over the country and don’t get half the flack you are giving me.
I stand by my statement, if I change my mind it won’t be b/c of anything you have said so I think this conversation is going around in circles at this point.\
Oh and Greg I’ve been to Europe, I’ve been to Denmark, Italy and the men aren’t half as distant and shallow, I believe one woman here on this thread commented that she ranges from a size 4 to size 10 and European men loved her size 10 versus the men here in the US preferred her size 4.
I’ve traveled extensively and I can attest that my experience with men was awesome, my dance card was full, I dated way more than I’ve ever dated before in my whole life, the way I was treated is really indescribable, first time I wasn’t treated like a stereotype but treated like a real woman and coming back home to the same ole BS only reconfirmed that I needed to change my location if I wanted a chance to have what I wanted.
Going from invisible to being relevant was an awesome experience and I would encourage women of color to take that journey if she’s having issues with being seen as valuable in her own country, there are men out there that will appreciate you and value you just as worthy as any other race of woman, if you’re not having luck consider moving to a country that can appreciate what you have to offer.
Greg 190
Kay,
I have a friend who married someone from Germany. I’m not giving you flack for branching out. I’m giving you flack for being bitter and hypocritical. You don’t want people to negatively stereotype you, yet you make negative and unrealistic sweeping generalizations about millions of american men you don’t even know. American men may suck for you but some women think American men are the best ever. Go figure. I would encourage anyone to expand their options, but there’s no need to make sweeping negative statements about men who happened not to want you. You’re taking rejection way too personally.
My friend found success because she wasn’t bitter and didn’t think all men were this or that. She was just enjoying life and happened to meet someone while overseas. She had a positive outlook and no she wasn’t physically attractive at all.. But she was super cool and fun, did the best she could with her looks and found someone.
You seem to automatically assume everyone is attacking you and that will scare men off. I would tell you to tone it down a bit, but you already admitted that you don’t listen to anyone. I’m not offended by your sweeping comments at all because I know they’re not true. I’m just trying to kindly let you know that quality men smell bitter women a mile away and usually head in opposite direction. Fair or unfair, decent men tend to assume that bitter women are emotionally damaged due to past negative experiences. You don’t want anyone to think that about you. So please cheer up a bit!
Saint Stephen 191
@Kay
Please listen to Greg, he speaks nothing but the truth which I know you don’t feel like hearing. The girl I’m presently dating is plain average – A lot of folks even said I look much more attractive than her, but her personality won me over and I now see myself heading to the altar with her. Stay positive and screen men for character first and you will find love wherever you are.
Kay 192
@Greg
Why are you invested in my feelings Greg? If your perception of me is bitter and hypocritical well that’s okay, you’re entitled to your opinion as so I.
Try not to be so attached to my words. I’ve never said I don’t listen to anyone but yet you’ve said that I said I don’t listen several times already and I’m not sure why you are putting words in my mouth but it’s clear you are the only one not listening because not once have I acknowledged I’m not listening to you.
You seem deeply attached to my perceptions about men being shallow, ironically I’m not the only one with this view but your invested in my words personally and haven’t went through the 100+ comments that appear to mirror the same view as myself. Interesting.
I stand by my statement take it or leave it….I prefer you leave it.
Greg 193
Kay,This is what you said in post #177. “I’m NOT listening to anyone but me.” So I am correct in assuming that you don’t want to listen to anyone. “The real struggle is in keeping a healthy perspective and a positive attitude until you find the right fit. This is the whole point of this blog post/article. I think you missed it.
Kay 194
@Greg
You misunderstood my statement. You said “ Stop listening to negative statistics and stereotypes.” And to that I said I’m not listening to anyone but me, I did not mean I wasn’t listening to you Greg.
I haven’t missed the point of the article, I actually agree with Evan…
Jayashri 195
Uh, two words. Sexual selection. It explains everything.
D 196
I don’t get it. If they are looking for the hottest women, they are going to keep looking for the hottest women till they keel.
I find often that men sometimes like women with nice bodies, but the faces are pretty plain to me. (Like Britney Spears.) Like, I noticed that it is easy for a woman to trick a man into thinking she is attractive. A red dress, long straightened hair, the right makeup, a right attitude, and skinniness, and a woman with a ho hum face becomes attractive to men. At a wedding, a woman was wearing red and dancing in the middle of the floor and suddenly men started coming up to her. In other words, women who men consider hot are not actually pretty, a lot of the time.
Also, to the men that say that women are looking for men with looks and money, but especially money. Many of the women I know are not specifically looking for money. Please note that I am 25, so that might be a factor. I think that the type of women that I see men chase after and comment about, what Louis CK calls “the hot girl at the bar,” might want money and power because she has her pick of the litter. Basically, you are judging what a woman wants if that woman is a 10. A lot of the women who are looking for relationships are not the 10s.
I, unfortunately, judge people way more on their looks than on their money. This is a self esteem problem with me. In my experience, I find that the difference between dating someone who has a decent amount of money to someone who does not (like someone pursuing a degree), is comfort with them paying or being able to go on fun dates. I find it gross when a guy looks at the bill like it’s on fire or asks to split on a first date. When I went on a couple of dates with a guy with a decent salary, there was not tension with him paying because he wanted to go to cool restaurants (not that pricey.) I usually offer to split and/or voice my reservation, but it is cool when we don’t have to restrict dates to going to parades or lunch and can easily go anywhere fun without me feeling guilty.
hespeler 197
36
“Actually, Sam, I disagree. I don’t think you have to look like a model to have a boyfriend – not by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think that with the advent of online dating, when men are scrolling through pages of pages of women, there’s very little incentive for them to write to average women when they feel like they can take a shot at a model. They may be delusional, but it doesn’t stop them at all.
People go online and complain that the people they DON’T want write to them, and the people they DO want won’t write back.
So more realistically, the average person is a 5 who wants to date an 8. The problem is that most of us think we’re 8′s.
Therein lies the disconnect – and the source of the disappointment.”
The above I believe is an unfortunate reality many of us have to face. However, there are always gray areas that I believe lead to confusion and make it easy to say I’ll go for the 7 but very difficult to actually follow-through. Allow me to explain.
Things are usually not black and white, I think we can all agree on that. What do you say to the person who complains that most of the time the girls/guys they are most interested in don’t write back to them but does have some success here and there?
Of course I’m talking about me personally and my experiences. In my 2 years of online dating, I am typically frustrated that the women I’m really interested in don’t write me back. But it isn’t always the case. I’ve been out with around 40 women from online, most I have been the one to turn down a second date (in retrospect I may have made some bad decisions). I also occasionally get a really attractive one (about 3 or 4 times). These are interspersed between getting ignored by a bunch of women as well as writing back and forth with hot ones that sometimes just fizzle out before I get a number (that’s part of online dating too). On the dates with the hot ones, I seem to create some chemistry and sometimes it leads to a make-out session so I’m obviously not repulsing them and I feel at the time being at least that I’m in their league. BUT, I have never gotten to date 2 with the highly attractive ones even though I got the attraction sparks flying enough for an open-mouth kiss. A couple of times the girl was pretty crazy and it didn’t bother me but the others I obviously felt a huge disappointment in not getting to round 2.
The point I’m trying to make is…when you have some flashes of success, albeit few and far between, it makes it that much more difficult to compromise. I often feel that I’m interesting and attractive enough to get the attention and the company of the top 5% but not interesting and attractive enough to keep them around. Therefore, I tell myself to just hold out because if I can get a date with the top 5% every now and then, maybe the next one will stick.
Then there are other times (like now since I’m still disappointed in a recent one-date wonder with a 10) that I feel as though those highly attractive women that I have dated have been a fluke and that maybe they were just bored and wanted to get out of the house for a while and were never really interested in me.
For me, I can get access to the really hot ones from time to time but they always turn out to be nothing more than a tease. The more average-looking girls seem great and more readily available. Why choose loneliness and frustration when potential happiness is possibly attainable? Sounds simple but around and around we go chasing women (I guess the same goes for women chasing men) that are elusive and maybe unattainable.
By the way, here’s my stats so to speak: I hate to bring up height because I think it’s way over rated but I’m 6’2″, very fit, and make six figures (though in my part of the US that is not a lot of money). Judging by what people on here write, I’m in the upper percentile in desirability. Still, the really beautiful ones are elusive. I will add I am trying to attract girls in their mid to late thirties (I’m 38). I’m not that delusional and think I am going to get the 25 year old model in Manhattan. As strange as this sounds, I don’t even think I want her at this point in my life.
Is it worth the pursuit anymore? I’m not so sure.
daling 198
questions for verbosity
“Also, are you positing that men s preoccupation with looks is a direct result of women s preoccupation with men s wealth?” – Yes.
1. I thought men were just biologically more visual so wouldn’t it be more logical to claim that women’s preoccupation with men’s wealth is a direct result of men’s preoccupation with women’s looks? Seems like rather than accept both genders have shallow standards you want to blame the blame game.
“You seem to be saying women deserve the shallow standards of men BECAUSE they themselves have shallow standards concerning men s wallets.” – Yes. Your characterization of men as shallow is unwarranted, and also posits that women somehow are ‘better.’
1. Shallow was applied both genders so how to does the sentence to taking it to imply women are somehow better?
Seems to me that the only one posits that another gender is somehow better is you with your women casued and deserve the shallow standards of men.
The Real Reason Older Men Date Younger Women - : 199
[...] coach for smart, strong, successful woman, Evan Marc Katz, puts it this way: I bet that even the most non-judgmental guy around would say that he wants a [...]
Ashley 200
The author clearly has never ventured into the BDSM community where there are hosts of submissive men yearning to worship women of all varieties.
I can, and pretty much have, made every guy I’ve ever wanted, fall in love with me…and I’m not a ten. I’m smart and I realize that women have exponentially more power than men do.
Mavis 201
maybe i’m being unrealistic here, but i don’t really want a man who has to “lower his standards” to date me. i want someone to think i’m beautiful. i know that conventionally, i’m average. but i also know that love is blind, and i have found conventionally average men to be very good-looking (in my eyes) once i got to know and love them for who they are. why can’t men do the same? instead of a guy saying to himself, “well, she’s just average, but i’ll settle for that becuase she has a good personality,” why can’t i expect a man to fall in love with me and honestly believe i’m beautiful? i know i’ll never be considered a 10 to most people, but i would like to be with someone who is a “10″ to me and vice versa. however i recently joined an online dating site and it’s been making me feel a lot worse about the way i look and dating in general. i messaged a few guys who i would consider to be average-looking, and had something in their profile that interested me. i later logged in to find that these men had viewed my profile and not responded. the majority of messages i seem to be getting are from very overweight or much older men. (the last one was 65, and i’m 30). as i said before i’m average-looking, but i expect to be able to date someone who is in my age range (give or take a few years) and at a healthy weight (as i am). however it seems as though these “average” men want the “10s” and this is where it leaves me. basically just like the article said.
CaptainObvious 202
Um…is it just me, or is this all very fucking obvious? Physical appearance is a large component of mate-selection. Whoop-di-doo.
But what does “good looks” mean? Surely the evidence around us all, every goddamn day, would lead us to the conclusion that “good looks” has a very broad meaning. I won’t say subjective, though there is of course an element of the subjective in any aesthetic value judgment. There are some objective elements…the Elephant Man is going to almost universally be deemed physically ugly. But that’s extremely broad. Everything in between “stunningly perfect, like a Greco-Roman sculpture in celebration of the human body” and “hideously deformed, almost creature or non-human looking” is fair game for the vast majority of people.
Snub nose? Aquiline nose? Hook nose? Button nose? And that’s just one feature. There are endless possible combinations that lead up to a lot of unique “looks” that are capable of being found attractive by someone (and no one is attractive to everyone.) It’s called a niche market (to use appallingly capitalistic lingo in this kind of discussion…but so be it.)
Of course, dating sites are a different game, but only because they’re mostly full of desperate, attention-seeking losers to whom the idea of algorithmic mate-selection (in the fashion of selecting pretty dolls or objects…like serial killers and their trophies) appeals. So you don’t want any of that anyway.
Mavis 203
um…i never thought of it quite that way (online dating, that is). i tried online dating because i am very, very shy. i thought it might help me to meet people without getting that anxious/panicky feeling i do when meeting them in person. however it seems to have backfired. i like to believe “good looks” has a very broad meaning, and to me it does. however it’s pretty hard NOT to believe that men follow a certain cultural standard of beauty. just to prove this theory, i created a new online dating profile, with basically the exact same wording as my own, but replaced my real photo with one of a model. now the responses are just pouring in. i’ve had as many people try to contact me in one day as i had in one MONTH with my regular photo. and i should add that even in my real photo, my hair and makeup are done, and i look much better than i do on a regular basis. if guys are rejecting my made-up photo (which they have) i hate to think of how they’d react to me in real life. and i’m honestly starting to think these guys aren’t too bright if all these average joes are rejecting me and seriously think they can get a model? get real!
Rachel 204
Most women have to take time off work because child care is too expensive this is why they ask about salary. And nowadays because of the cost of living men are also ‘shallow’ about salary. I am temping at the moment and when I say that to men they lose interest!