I’m in my 30′s and I Don’t Want to Waste Time With the Wrong Men. How Soon Should I Find Out If He’s Serious About Marriage and Kids?
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So as much as you think you’re saving time by putting all your cards out on the table right away, you’re actually sabotaging yourself. There are things that my wife told me after 9 months together that I wouldn’t have accepted after 1 month, and vice versa. Once your guy’s in love, once he’s invested, you have much more power and leverage.
And by the way, your leverage is not in telling him to pop for a ring or else. Your leverage is in deciding whether you have a future, and, if not, walking away with your head held high. Walk away too soon because of YOUR timetable, and you may be shorting HIS timetable.
Learn how to embrace the concept of being cool and letting a man choose you without pressure.
Your concerns are perfectly valid, SK, but your methods for dealing with them come from a place of anxiety. We’re not that attracted to anxiety. So stop trying to figure out how to merge your bank accounts on date 2, stop hinting that you’d like a family on date 4, stop trying to KNOW things about your future when you’ve only been together for six months. YOU might think you know after six months, but if my wife – or my friends’ wives – pressured me or my friends for a decision after only six months together, none of us would be married right now.
You might not like to hear me telling you to just chill out, but it gets far better results than what you’ve outlined above.
Click below to learn how to embrace the concept of being cool and letting a man choose you without pressure. It may not be easy, but for my wife, I’d like to think there are some great rewards…
www.evanmarckatz.com/products/why-he-disappeared.html
Your friend,
Evan
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Related Posts:
- My Serious Boyfriend Doesn’t Know If He Wants to Have Kids
- I’m a Man Who Doesn’t Want to Have Kids. Who Is Left To Date?
- I Think Sex Is Wrong Outside Marriage. Why Won’t Anyone Date Me?
- Is There Something Wrong With a Man in His 40s Who Has Never Been Married Before?
- How to Know If You’re Wasting Time on the Wrong Men
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214 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 1
Hi Evan,
I agree that it’s better to relax than reveal any desperation. But at 41, after 7 months with my boyfriend now husband, I did put on the pressure. I wanted to know if we had a future. I didn’t ask when we would marry. I asked him for an answer to the future and was willing to walk away to find a man who knew what he wanted which hopefully was me.
He didn’t like what I did naturally. We decided to take two weeks to think about things. After that time we talked and he decided that he wanted to live with me first. but we didn’t set a time frame. Three months later he moved in and two months later we got engaged.
In truth, I didn’t make him do anything. At 38, he decided to move forward rather than risk losing me. It was a risk I was willing to take, and I’m very glad I did. Not all men will get “around to it.” We’ve been married happily for nine years.
When I was dating I told every man on the first date that I was looking to get married. I put my agenda on the table in a “just mentioning it” way. Depending on a woman’s age – I still advise this strategy.
It doesn’t mean you can make a man do anything he doesn’t want to do. But being clear about your own agenda can separate the boys from the men. Anyone who ran wasn’t the right man for me.
.-= Ronnie Ann Ryan – The Dating Coach´s last blog ..Dating After Divorce – I Don’t Know Where to Start =-.
Helen 2
When I pretended to be a guy reading that letter, as Evan encouraged his writer to do, this is what I thought:
“Why would I want to date a chick who only wants to marry me so she can have kids? What if I’m not sure I want kids? Even if I did, why would I only want to feel like a tool, or a means to an end? If she marries me just because she wants kids, how do I know I’ll get any of her attention once we’re married? And if we’re married and for some reason can’t have kids even if we try, will I have a permanently depressed wife on my hands?”
Not. attractive. at. all. Evan, thanks for that suggestion of looking at it from the other side. What an eye-opener.
Honey 3
While this post does make me wonder why she wants kids so badly (and why anyone does…) I also wonder why she needs marriage to have them. I mean, it’s undoubtedly a better situation to have a man involved, but it doesn’t sound like she’s interested in compromising, being in love, or any of that. She doesn’t talk about it at all. Her whole approach is very clinical and “how soon can I have my babies.”
Desperation aside, if I were a guy I’d wonder what my place was in any of that.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Summer Lovin or Not =-.
Steve 4
@SK;
I sympathize with you. I have a similar dating issue.
I’m at an age where I feel like there is still time to enjoy life and dating, but that the time in not unlimited. I’m also 100% sure I do not want to be a parent.
I have to commend you. You know what you want and you have thought about the realities of biology.
On match.com I’m regularly finding personal ads from women your age and up to 10 years older who list themselves as being “unsure” about raising children.
Even if these women have adoption in mind, they are still “unsure” about a minimal 18 year commitment that will see them through to the edge of their senior years.
If you are doing online dating, you can obviously avoid men like me and focus on men who list themselves as being certain that they want children.
You can also add a few lines to your profile stating that you are not in a rush of any sort, but that you are only interested in men who are also not in a rush, but who know for sure they want to be fathers someday.
If you meet a man the old fashioned way, you can use a similar line, with a RELAXED demeanor after you have dated him for about month.
Good Luck!
Steve 5
First, let’s try an exercise. Pretend you’re a guy for a second.
Now reread your letter.
I’ll wait. J
Exactly.
About 5 lines into SK’s email, I checked to make that sure my fly was zipped and the word “vasectomy” popped into my head.
Mikko Kemppe 6
Evan makes a good solid point. I agree, guys don’t like to feel pushed. We want to feel like we make decisions for ourselves. And after all, I am sure that you as a woman would feel much better about yourself if your guy/boyfriend/husband decided he wanted to marry you or have kids because of he really wanted it and made the decision for himself, instead of you feeling like you had to force him to do that.
Now having said that as I read her question, I also heard a legitimate concern of how do you really know when it really is a right time to move on from a guy if you feel like it is not going anywhere? After all, I have to also agree with SK, clearly there can be instances when you may simply not be dating the right person. So how do you move on?
I think the broad answer to that is similar to Evan’s philosophy in that you simply want to keep your intentions on finding the right one for you, but not to become too attached to any one particular guy or outcome for it to happen.
So simply keep dating a lots of men and keep your options open. Date two, three, or four men at the same time, as I know Evan often suggests as well. I think it is fine for a woman to ask her date after couple of dates whether he is interested in having children or not in the future, as long as she asks that question from a place of honestly being curious on what he thinks about the issue without demanding anything from a him or trying to push him to change in anyway.
And if his answer is not what you would want to hear, then, yes there should be nothing wrong with you simply saying: NEXT in line please
! This way as Evan said, you won’t get too attached to a particular guy or outcome. And furthermore, the more you date around, the more you will learn about yourself and develop your ability to just know when the right guy with the values you both share does come along.
Good luck!
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe 7
Good advice Ronnie Ann Ryan. I agree with you, I don’t think there should be anything wrong with putting your agenda on the table as long as, as you said, you do it from a place not trying to change a man or push a man to do something, and are willing to walk away or distance yourself from him if he does not come through.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Mikko Kemppe 8
Evan makes a great point. If she is really wanting to marry a man just because she wants kids or even if she did not want a man just for that, but came across as if she did, yes definitely a big turn-off.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..I am smart, independent, successful, and educated, why aren’t men attracted to me? Read the answer here, and discover the solution. =-.
Sam 9
I know I’m atypical, but I would only be scared off by SK’s strong desire for marriage and children if I had reservations about her in the first place. If a girl I’m not that into starts talking about a life commitment then I would be concerned and hit the brakes, but if I think she’s terrific I would be delighted by how much she wants marriage and children, since I want that too. (that I want children too is possibly a reason I feel this way)
I think these dating strategy mistakes only matter if you are borderline with someone. As people have said before, if you call someone every day who isn’t into you then you are being clingy, but if you call someone every day who does like you then you are being sweet and considerate.
Thus, if he’s thinking “She’d be a great wife and a great mother” and you talk about kids he’s going to like you even more. If he’s thinking “I don’t like X, Y, Z” and you talk about kids he is going to go the other way.
Eathan 10
Relaxing is the key. The smell of desperation is a strong scent. Over the years, women with a relationship agenda are the ones that us men avoid. I hate feeling there is a time limit..pressure to make advancement. It always gives me the feeling that there is something under the surface that isn’t quite right for a LTR.
Acting out of desperation will attract losers and bad choices.
.-= Eathan´s last blog ..Should I Have Good Sheets or Cheap Sheets? =-.
andie 11
Steve…the problem with Match is that there is not an “open to raising kids” option. So, another words, if someone already had kids from a previous relationship or wanted to adopt, that would be fine. It would also be fine to remain without children. So, women like me are stuck with checking “unsure.”
Pete 12
Thanks Evan, for articulating so clearly what I and so many other men feel. Being pressured into a familial commitment drives men away, especially for anyone who’s divorced and, while able to conceive of being married again someday, is still feeling a bit burned by it. I believe that, unless stated outright to the contrary, we all want the same things, for the most part.
Slow down, enjoy the relationship and the other person in it, and the chances are radically improved that you’ll end up where you want to be.
Jacey 13
I totally agree with Evan—but am curious: how could SK “get rid of” her anxiety regarding her fear of not finding someone before her biological clock runs out, so she’s not projecting that while she’s out on a date? The obvious answer would be for her to calm down and take deep breaths, etc…but I’m talking about when that doesn’t work?
Isabelle Archer 14
I agree with all of this…except for that I do think you can and should “know” by 6 months whether or not there’s long-term potential.
Isabelle Archer 15
The only way you can really get rid of this kind of anxiety is to accept it, as well as the possibility that her worst fear — no biological child — may come true.
bella 16
I 100% empathize with this letter, and feel the same way. And I’m really glad she wrote it.
This letter encapsulates what so many (but not all) women fear. It comes from years of dating men who haven’t planned for their future, who haven’t taken on real responsibility, and who DON’T have conversations with friends about who can’t get pregnant at 37.
Men aren’t marketing targets in the baby-making business, they aren’t being told their organs are drying up, they aren’t reading growing statistics about how there are more women choosing younger men with no baggage.
If you want to know “what’s behind” this letter, it’s not that this girl is high-strung, crazy or imbalanced. It’s that she is a woman, who wants to fall in love and start a family, and she is looking for a partner who wants the same thing. But it’s become a faux pax to say that out loud.
It’s funny. We used to live in an age where a woman who wanted a career was considered un-feminine. Now a woman in 2009 is fretting about implying she wants a family one day, as if that’s a dirty word.
The advice that she should just “chill out” is true, but simplistic. No one, in the history of time, has ever been permanently “chilled out” for the first 6 months of dating someone.
MY ADVICE to her, would be: These are all valid fears, age-appropriate concerns, and legitimate questions. Use your gut instinct as much as possible, don’t sabotage yourself, keeping dating someone unless you see more red flags than white ones.
I’ve also noticed something predictable: When I’m dating someone I’m on the fence with, these fears pop up everywhere like weeds. When I’m dating someone I really like and feel giddy about, these thoughts tend to dissipate because I’m too distracted by how happy I am to be around this person, and I feel naturally relaxed.
I think these thoughts are interconnected with other feelings of instability. She recently broke up with someone who said he wasn’t sure if she was the one. That right there is really, really hard to hear, and really hard to walk away from. You want to wait it out, but you are old enough to know you deserve better. She walked away, and I think that’s brave. Now she’s out there again, and she’s scared, and also scarred. Her feelings in this letter make total sense.
Yes, if you read this letter as a man, it doesn’t paint a pretty picture. But she is NOT reading this letter to a man on a date. She is revealing what a 30-something woman’s fears are in a letter to a dating coach, and she’s not alone.
I’m sure if a woman was privy to the inner most thoughts of a man, she’d run away too.
Evan Marc Katz 17
Well stated, Bella. I wouldn’t disagree with a word, and, in fact, validated the original poster’s feelings and concerns in my reply to her.
As you said, staying cool is far easier said than done. My main point was that if you pressure a guy and walk away too soon, you may be leaving a good man who is merely working on a different timetable.
That does not mean to stay with a loser who will break your heart. It mean putting yourself in his shoes for once – something that is particularly hard for most of us to do.
Thanks for your contribution.
Mr_Right 18
This is fairly interesting, because I’ve seen the inverse of this, where girls aren’t sure if they want kids or not.
Back when I was doing online dating, when using eHarmony, I would set my profile to “wants kids”, and I was looking for girls who also “wanted kids” or who were “maybe” on the issue.
But you know, after talking to many girls who were “maybe” on the issue of kids, the conversations kind of went like this: “Well, I really like kids but I definitely don’t want them right now, but maybe someday I would want them.”
And that’s too ambigious for me. It would be like dating someone for a couple of years and then finding out they aren’t really into having kids. What I started doing is when I would see a profile with someone who was a “maybe”, then I would close them out (unless they were really really attractive and had a killer profile, then I would go a few steps in communication, THEN close them out).
So, I think what it would be important to do is that when you’re on sites like Match or eHarmony, if having kids is something you have to have in a match (and it definitely sounds like it is), then you should close those people who are the “maybe”‘s or the “not interested”, even if they match you in all the other areas.
I mean, we’re talking about what you have to have here, ya know. No gray area.
Thoughts?
JB 19
This is a tad off the exact topic but I think all the online sites need to do a better job with the section of:
Wants kids ____
Don’t want kids _____
Have kids but don’t want to have more kids_____
Don’t want to have any of my own kids
but if you have them great ________
yadda,yadda,yadda……….. It get very confusing for the 40 & up crowd.
On Yahoo I have to check “Don’t have children” AND
“Don’t want children”
Then in my profile I have to say “I get along great with kids” letting the women know I like kids I just don’t have nor do I want to have any of my own.
Steve 20
Match.com has a “yours are fine” choice for “wants kids”
Mikko Kemppe 21
I think your main point of making sure not to pressure a man and walk away too soon is right on target.
.-= Mikko Kemppe´s last blog ..Mikko, How Do I Make Sure I Don’t Just End Up Dumped After Sexless Dates? =-.
Diana 22
Even though I have never been in her shoes, I greatly empathize with this young woman and her dilemma. I know that many others are in the same situation. It is difficult when you feel as if you’re running up against a deadline, and you’re quickly losing ground. But for as much as we sometimes wished they did, successful and happy relationships do not run on a pre-determined time line or course, and they certainly cannot begin and thrive in a pressure cooker.
As difficult as this may be for her, she needs to let go of the fear and the anxiety that she might never have children or have them in a specific time frame. These thoughts and feelings are sabotaging her dreams, and they are detrimental to what she hopes to someday have.
My take is that after enjoying a handful of hopefully, comfortable and fun dates together, have an open, non-pressuring conversation about how each of you envision your future. In the very beginning, you’re still trying to figure out if you even want to continue dating, let alone take the plunge and have their children.
Sometimes by listening very closely to a man, you will have your answer without anything further being necessary. He may actually give you a direct answer without provocation on date no. 1, to which you would politely move on, if it’s not what you want. And it often comes down to knowing “when” is the perfect time to have the conversation with a man; definitely, when they are relaxed, and of course, what to say and “how” to say it.
Keep in mind that men process their emotions very differently from women. If a woman tells a man how she feels, sometimes they can appear as if they’re withdrawing from her feelings, but they are actually taking the time they need to process their “own” emotional response to hers, and then return to validate and reconnect. I man who says he’s unsure about having children may actually be saying, he doesn’t want children with “you.” Or maybe he’s unsure because he doesn’t know where you stand. And if he doesn’t want children, I would hope he’d be able to express this directly.
In the end, it all comes down to what feels right to you. My advice … keep your date planner as full as you can with quality men, ease into things a little bit slow, but not “too” slow, so as not to abuse not only your time, but theirs. Find a relaxing moment, share your views about the future, and then let the chips fall where they may. If he seems to wobble, but you have an amazing connection and time together and he feels like the one, then give the relationship the time it deserves. Don’t live your life by a stop watch. Love is too precious and rare.
Jennifer 23
I think a lot of women have these feelings, but as Bella stated it’s become unheard of to share them. So bravo to SK for putting it out there.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to know if you see something long-term with someone after 6 months. Some people don’t. The key is to concentrate on people that feel the way you do about it, instead of lamenting about not getting more men/every man onto your page. If a guy seems anti marriage and kids, don’t try to convert him, don’t try to hang in and see if he’l change his mind- just leave him alone. It’s been my experience that guys will often be the first to talk about how they want to get married and have kids sometime soon. For every guy that is interested in having fun dating a lot of women, there is another guy interested in having fun dating one woman and getting married. Remember that.
I think early thirties is a great time to date- chances are decent that men in this age group who want to get married are in a position to consider it and be open to it in a way that they may not have been in their 20′s. You’ve had some relationships and know yourself better (hopefully) and have a good idea of what you can and can’t deal with– that alone will save time and agony. For every negative thing that can be said about dating in your early 30′s, a positive thing can be said too. The guys who are looking for the right woman to marry are out there too, and just as real as the guys who aren’t. You only need one!
Diana 24
Excellent post.
Roger 25
“I’m never getting married and I never want to have children” I said when I met the woman who eventually became the mother of my children and to whom I was married for over two decades.
We fell in love and lived together for a number of years, she told me “My life plans include marriage and children. I love you and want to have you in my life, but if those two things are out of the question, please let me know. I will miss you very much if I have to find someone else.”
She gave me plenty of time and was thrilled when I gave her a formal proposal–bent knee, diamond and all.
The point? I would not have qualified if asked about kids at 6 months, 1,2,3 years. Forcing the issue too soon would have pushed me away.
-NN- 26
Couple of things I have to comment:
A. First what Sam said 2009-07-09 09:48:32
“I think these dating strategy mistakes only matter if you are borderline with someone. ”
I am always borderline with every man – if he doesn’t see the point of putting himself to the case to get what he wants, he went over the border -> he is not interesting, since why should I bother either?
B. Secondly what Evan said in his advice:
“You’re 33. It’s a great age for dating because you’re young enough to be highly desirable to men in their late 30′s and early 40′s,”
Why?.. I have to emphasise, WHY would I want a man who is older – If I was 33, I want a man who is same age – not someone who is worn out. Most men just don’t know how to keep good care of themselves, and are overweight etc. A turn-off
Quite frankly – I am older than 33, but I know what kind of men are at their 40′s..
and I am NOT interested in THEM physically.
If I can’t see myself kissing a guy, he is out. Sex is just that important, and that I don’t settle.
If I’m not attracted, if I can’t see myself having sex with man I am rather without – than having a sexual relationship with someone who makes me want to throw up.
But then again – I don’t see the point of having children – therefore I don’t see the point of selling myself to have a non-satisfactory relationship either with someone who is just borderline to attractive in the first place.
Men don’t do that either, they just jump over those too.
I know what Evan has said, that we have to settle – Funny thing is.. he didn’t – but women should?
I am quite willing to be single, and even die single at the age of 80+, than spend my intimate moments with someone I feel indifferent to.. or worse (I have tried) someone who makes me feel naseous in the sack.
My grand aunt.. who is now 85, and has been for ever an old maid (even if younger man in 60′ tried to catch her attentions) and never married.. I asked her “do you regret that you didn’t start with that man”.. she said that “nope, I like how my life has turned out”
Most people might settle, but I think that I come to my family.. Rather without, than settle with someone who is B-grade to me.
Evan Marc Katz 27
NN,
I’ve never said “settle”. I’ve said “compromise”. There’s a massive difference. My wife and I made MAJOR compromises to be with each other. I compromised on age, ambition, geography. She compromised on religion, plus everything it takes to marry a neurotic, workaholic, know-it-all dating coach. We share values, laughter, trust, fun, the desire to build a better life. We’re not clones, which is what we so often seek in partners.
If you’d like to be single until you’re 85, because you won’t compromise, go ahead. You can have rich and fulfilling existence. But when my wife and I saw “Up” last night, and tearfully reaffirmed our love for each other, I could imagine no other way.
starthrower68 28
Guess I need to see this movie, Up. You know, Evan I must admit, sometimes I’m not sure what I want out of a relationship. I’ve had kids and don’t plan to have anymore (love kids, its my age), I’m earning my education which has always been a dream and goal, and I do have a full and fulfilling life so I’m not dependent on a relationship. If I’m completely honest, sometimes I wish I could just have a long-term exclusive guy that would also be a sexual partner that could go back to his space and I could go back to mine. But as a person of faith, I believe what the Bible says, and I can’t pick and choose which parts I want to follow, so I don’t do that. Obviously, I’m not in a hurry to rush down the aisle with anyone, and I’m cool with taking things slow. But by the same token, since I am not dependent on a relationship, I don’t want to waste my time, just because there are a lot of other things I can be doing and people I can spend time with that do value me in return. And I think, because of that, it’s going to take one helluva guy that is serious about what he wants and getting it, if that makes sense?
Lance 29
Ouch. I read her email and felt the strong urge to run for the hills. She should just pay to get pregnant.
.-= Lance´s last blog ..Summer Lovin or Not =-.
Joe 30
Are you dating twenty-somethings, Mr_Right?
Ava 31
The desire to have children is an intense, primal desire. I recognize that as a woman, even though I don’t want kids myself. It’s one of those things that if you want to do and don’t, you may always regret. Sometimes a woman can go for years not wanting kids and wake up one day at 40, desperately wanting them. Timing, as they say, is everything. If you can wait, give a relationship some time to develop further, but if you can’t, then find a guy who also really wants a family. Most of my friends who wanted kids found those men, and I think the LW can, too. And believe me, it’s easier to have kids earlier with a stable partner, then later when you might have to deal with IVF, or adoption, or being a single mom.
Karl R 32
I think you can get this information out of a man if you address the issue in a non-threatening manner.
One woman brought up the topic after we’d been dating for a couple months. She mentioned that she wanted to have kids one day. I mentioned that I didn’t want to have kids. The conversation moved on to other topics from there, but I filed it away in the back of my mind as a potential future dealbreaker.
A couple months later, she decided to break up with me because of our differences on that issue. She felt that dating me was becoming her excuse for not going out and finding someone who would be a husband and father. Obviously, she felt a lot greater urgency in that search than I did. I’d like to get married before I die, but I have no immediate plans to do either.
Nieces and nephews make a great way to edge your way into the topic.
Curly Girl 33
If it’s a big, deal-breaking issue for you then by all means, it needs to be something you seek to find out about someone you’re seeing, and earlier, rather than later (which pretty much goes for all deal-breaking issues, actually). That said, you don’t have to go about it like a battle-axe. You can mention something about kids in a casual way and see what the reaction is (like, “I just love spending time with my baby niece!”–as Karl suggests).
Here’s a battele-axe example. Years ago I was on a second date with a guy who said to me point blank, apropos of nothing: “I think you should know, I do not support abortion and I believe in the corporal punishment of children.” I guess he was assuming that I was looking for a marriage/procreation partner (I wasn’t) and was either trying to scare me off (it didn’t, but it should have) or let me know that he was looking and what his standards were.
We only went out one or two times after that, and I still can’t figure out why he dumped that on me right off the bat. Maybe because he’d gotten grief about his beliefs from other women and he wanted to head things off at the pass? Not sure.
Anyway, it worked. He knew what he wanted and stated it up front. He didn’t get married right away after that, but eventually he did, and I’m sure that he found someone who believed what he believed. (Shudder)
Karl R 34
-NN- said:
“WHY would I want a man who is older [...] I want a man who is same age – not someone who is worn out [...] I know what kind of men are at their 40′s”
You mean like Hugh Jackman (40), Will Smith (40), Jeffrey Donovan (41), and Brad Pitt (45)?
I date individuals, not general categories of people. The 48 year old I dated a few months ago was in much better shape than either of the 28 year olds I dated in 2008. And the two ladies who seemed the most worn-out were two of the closest to my age (36 & 37).
There is some correlation between youth and looks/fitness. On the other hand, there’s some correlation between age and maturity/financial stability. SK is looking for someone who will be a good husband and father, not just someone who will be great in bed.
This is where you (-NN-) can compromise (with someone older than you are) without settling (for someone who is lazy and flabby). SK might make different compromises, since she wants different things in her partner.
LK 35
Thanks for posting this topic. I have similar concerns, and I know it affects how I approach dating.
vino 36
I admit I did not read every comment.
The OP’s letter reminds me of oh so many 30 something women I’ve met, and shy away from.
I tend to view this in conjunction with the Lori Gorrleib article (see EMK’s thread – http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/why-women-should-settle/)
I distill the article’s import to me down to the following quote – “So if you rarely see your husband but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?”
Spirited discussion on the thread occurred on whether this is good for the guy. I don’t think it is, btw.
Specifically, if a woman thinks you are a ‘lesser’ mate simply to satisfy her biological urge for children, and the concurrent monetary support in fulfilling that urge, I argue the likelihood of a successful partnership is not promising, not to mention the increased likelihood of later infidelity. See EMK’s comment above re: settling vs. compromising for clarification.
This is the dilemma 30-something women face. I’ve been on dates, and they are less dates than interrogations because, you know, time’s-a-wastin’. BTW, that’s the rule, not the exception for 30-somethings.
And here I thought dating was supposed to be fun…
vino 37
“It comes from years of dating men who haven’t planned for their future, who haven’t taken on real responsibility, and who DON’T have conversations with friends about who can’t get pregnant at 37″
True, but whose choice was it to date those men? And the conclusory statement about not taken on real responsibility is just that – conclusory.
Sometimes these fears and issues result from making bad decisions throughout one’s 20′s, which are the prime child bearing years, biologically speaking. I say this because the stated desire is to have children and a family.
bella 38
This is in response to Karl R.’s post about a woman he was dating, who brought up the issue of kids after a couple of months. Once they realized they were on different pages, they broke up a few months later. (so he wrote).
As a woman, this is what I thought when I read that: “Months!?”
I could never see myself waiting that long to receive and react to such imperative information. Are the men here implying that in order to be a “cool” and “level-headed” dater, that’s what women should do?
I’d name it, “He’s Just Not That Into Kids” and call it a day.
JB 39
@Bella…..as well know from Behrendt’s book, just because a guy doesn’t want to have kids with ONE woman doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be dying to have them with a different woman.
So it should be properly titled:
“He’s Just Not That Into YOU Having His Kids”
or
“He’s Just Not Into Having Kids With Y O U”
But because men have no urgency he’ll have a great time “practicing” with whoever he wants ….LOL
Mr_Right 40
I believe back then my age range was 23-28.
Karl R 41
JB said:
“He’s Just Not Into Having Kids With YOU”
If I was going to have kids with anyone, that lady would have been my first choice. Some of us aren’t interested in having kids PERIOD.
Bella said
“As a woman, this is what I thought when I read that: ‘Months!?’
I could never see myself waiting that long to receive and react to such imperative information.”
I can’t imagine knowing all the imperative information about a woman within the first couple months. During those 4 1/2 months we were constantly discovering important things about each other.
More importantly, we were enjoyed each other’s company for its own sake. Despite the depression I went through after the breakup, I see that relationship as a positive experience in my life (and I believe my ex-girlfriend feels the same way).
I get the impression that you would see a similar relationship as a waste of four months.
JB said:
“because men have no urgency he’ll have a great time ‘practicing’ with whoever he wants”
I get the feeling that you’re trying to imply something derisive about me, but I’m completely missing the point you’re trying to make.
You’re essentially correct. If I have sex with a woman, it’s because she means a lot to me, I really want to have sex with her, and she really wants to have sex with me. My only goal is for both of us to have a great time.
Are you suggesting that it’s wrong for men (and women?) to have sex without having some agenda motivating them?
JB 42
@Karl R. I was just talking about men in general meaning that just because any man doesn’t want a certain woman to have his children doesn’t mean he doesn’t or won’t enjoy dating her or having and enjoying sex with her ie: “practicing” it wasn’t directed at any person or post on here. It’s just the way we men are. Like a lot of men, we can THINK we don’t want to have children then we meet a woman who we fall head over heels for and she DOES want them. We just might change our minds or al least re think the situation. And we can do that at any age.
Jura 43
This is so sad to read. I am currently in Sweden – ultimate post-marriage society, but even here dating sites have found a clear way to people’s profiles: “work: important/not important/don’t know”, “marriage: important/not important/don’t know”. Usually I would not even reply to guys who state that they consider marriage in general not important. When I (often) see the combination of work=important, marriage=not important, and “wants kids in the future”, I can’t stop thinking “moron”.
The reason why it is sad to read is that I hoped that with time (mid-thirties and on) men also want a more settled life, warmth and understanding. That hope in some way helped me cope with an a long term relationship ending last year. It’s a surprise to find that in fact what is wanted is yet more *years* of “sterile” sex. Because it is all about fertility management, right? These unlimited in time fun dating practices are enabled by modern contraceptive technologies. Reading the OP’s letter makes you think of a vasectomy? Welcome to experiencing a micro moment of women’s life! We are expected to be sterile 24/7 with our boyfriends. OK, I’m old-fashioned, I’ll let other, more eager, women do it.
I consider myself lucky, because I want a family, not babies per se. No man to love, no desire for babies. For a 30+ year old, it should not be difficult to see if a man is a mate material soon after meeting him. If it is, you need to pimp up your radar, woman!
Curly Girl 44
Agree with Jura!! Again, I don’t know why there is this stereotype out there that all women want marriage/babies and that all guys don’t, or don’t want these things in general, but only if they “fall” for some woman who changes their minds somehow.
As someone who has always been highly ambivalent about marriage/babies and what it offers me in particular, I can tell you that there are tons of guys out there who want marriage/babies–because I have dated them and I am related to several. These men were either disappointed or surprised or put off by my ambivalence toward what they saw as “what all women want.”
That said, many women do want marriage/children in a general way, and if she dates guys who also want it in a general way, the guy isn’t going to be all freaked out by her clear statement of intent (finding a husband/co-parent)–he’s going to think, “Ah! A real contender! Not one of these ambivalent career women like Curly Girl!”
So, each to his own. I wish there were a more customized view of dating rather than a one-size fits all (women want marriage/men want sex). I think that a woman who wants children and tradition can approach dating one way, and a woman like me, who would only marry under certain circumstances and would be happy to leave it otherwise, can approach it another way.
bella 45
In response to Karl R.
Thanks for sharing more about your story.
My reaction to your original story was more personal than universal. So yes, if I were dating someone for four months before I learned that he did not want kids, I’d be upset.
I have a feeling the woman who wrote this original letter would be upset too. Hence the original question, how long do you wait to find out, if it’s a very important issue for you.
But someone else in that situation may find that time-frame very natural. It would still be sad to say goodbye, but no one would feel mislead.
Curly Girl 46
Agree with you, Bella. The guys I’ve known who were looking for a Mrs. were very no-nonsense about it and did not hesitate to put certain questions about deal-breaking issues right upfront. Why should women play coy about what they want? If you want something very badly, who has time to waste? And why bother spending any time at all with someone who isn’t on the same page as you re: relationship? Who cares if some guys are freaked out or scared off by it? It’s not like you’re going to change their minds by holding off asking the big questions until they are more comfortable with a discussion about marriage/children. Maybe they aren’t ever going to be comfortable with it. That’s their issue/problem/choice. But if you’re in your 30s, marriage/kids is a major dating issue to address, and the discussion will happen at some point. It’s an individual thing as to when. Whoever feels more strongly about it will probably bring it up. And if the other person is responsible, he or she will respond responsibly, with honest answers about what he or she wants in that area. Then each gets to decide whether or not to continue seeing the other, based on the response.
Also, wasn’t I being excoriated before for suggesting that the propaganda for the LTR is a little too heavy on dating sites and in the media–that the reality of marriage/kids is daunting and the odds aren’t great, based on what we see going on out there. And now we have someone being told that her quest for a stable LTR–and the main reason people through history have gotten married–to reproduce in some kind of controlled or accepted way–has a stench to it.
Why is it so uncool to discuss relationship realities when dating–whether the reality is “most marriages seem kind of sucky and are based on unrealistic expectations,” or “a stable relationship for raising kids is the ultimate expression of male/female love and sexuality”?
Why all the pretense? Does this pretense get us what we want?
Evan Marc Katz 47
“Why should women play coy about what they want? If you want something very badly, who has time to waste?…It’s not like you’re going to change their minds by holding off asking the big questions until they are more comfortable with a discussion about marriage/children.”
Actually, Curly, that’s exactly what I’m suggesting. However valid your concerns, the act of putting your cards on the table right away can be taken as a sign of desperation, which will make many men run. It would have scared me and pretty much every relationship oriented guy I know. I would suspect that a guy who plays the marriage card too early doesn’t inspire attraction either. No matter how you slice it, playing it cool is almost always a better bet.
Curly Girl 48
Only up to a point, EMK. All the guys I know who were clear about wanting to get married have gotten married. And yes, they did seem desperate! (Granted, a lot of those marriages occurred under not ideal circumstances and I wouldn’t put money on them lasting, but that’s another issue.)
Point is, the people who want the same thing have to find each other. I agree 100%, EMK, that you do not go at it like it’s some kind of mission. So I say, be clear on the inside, do not say or do anything that contradicts or violates your inner truth about these major issues (in other words, don’t pretend to want a LTR if you don’t, don’t go looking at houses with someone if you aren’t going to carry through on the promise of what that implies, don’t pretend that you are “casual” when you are not–your advice to the woman on the TV clip, etc.).
And also, be very aware of the clues that the other person is putting out there. If I want to be married and some guy drops one comment about how marriage sucks, my little red light ought to go on. Do you ask directly at that point what he means by that? Maybe. It’s harder to break away if that little red light goes on after you’re in love. And you may end up compromising yourself into misery if that little red light goes on too late.
This is a very difficult issue. In my POV it’s the people who want an LTR or a family who are more vulnerable and might get toyed with–not by SOBs, necessarily, which would be easier to spot—but by a decent person who holds out a lot of promise–just not to you. He or she has no reason to end the relationship and can coast forever, but the person who has the most to lose is the one who will pay for the other person’s ambivalence.
girl-with-glasses 49
@Curly Girl,
With respect to upfront and forward men, the dating situation is different. If they were so keen to start a family, they have a whole wide number of applicants to choose and sort from.
A woman in her mid 30′s is different. If her heart is set on getting married and having children, her appeal to mates is already compromised to a certain extent. Men do exist that want family and kids, but won’t those men be more attracted to 20′s than a 30′s women? For women at her age, it isn’t exactly a *feature*. It isn’t a deal breaker either.
I think Evan’s point is that if men were more emotionally into a woman, the age won’t matter. But having some 30 +year old woman come forward right off the bat to a perspective date is off putting. She’s only hurting her own chances.
Curly Girl 50
@GWG: I’ve seen it happen, though. I’ve seen women in their 40s do it. They just say, nope, I only want a serious relationship and I’m only spending a very short period of time with a guy before I walk if he doesn’t come through. In the two very specific cases I am thinking of (one is my sister), she was very clear with the guy. Not on the first or second date, but pretty soon into dating (I never said to get down to the nitty-gritty right off the bat).
In all of the cases, though, the guys wanted to be married, too. Also should mention that these folks were divorced and didn’t want to remain single. Divorced people often get remarried very soon after the divorce–how does this happen if the topic of marriage isn’t out there?
Also, I’m not a big believer in “your chances are better if you’re younger” and I’m not into the desperation thing. I know people who married for the first time at all ages and women who have had their children at all ages. One of my coworkers just had her first at the age of 48–no donated eggs (lots of intervention, true). One of the women above who was pretty upfront about wanting to get married/have a baby did so at 42 and had her first baby (no intervention at all) at 43. These are just two stories among many that have shown me that there are many ways to date & mate & procreate.
I still say ya gotta suss it out in some way–whatever works for you. Being direct, paying attention to certain indicators, going to sites that cater more specifically to what you are looking for. For instance, if you’re Catholic and you go to a Catholic site, you probably aren’t going to find many guys who are surprised or put off by a woman’s desire to have children–it’s a big part of the religion.
I was raised Catholic and this colors my thoughts about this issue, that’s true. Practicing Catholics who don’t want/expect kids or who would be put off by someone stating marriage and kids as a life goal are something of an anomoly. You’d almost have to leave the religion over that issue. As I did.
-NN- 51
Karl K said:
You mean like Hugh Jackman (40), Will Smith (40), Jeffrey Donovan (41), and Brad Pitt (45)?
—————–
I am talking about real men who are single – not filmstars who have an added interest keeping themselves in shape.
Single men are in 2 categories at their 40′s
1. eternal playboys, who think too much of themselves and behave like there are no social roles that they need to remember.
2. those who have totally given up, and think they should be accepted as they are..
There are few exceptions, but most of the men (at least online) tend to fall to one of those.
Thanks but no thanks.. if I want something that is missbehaving – I get a dog.
What you Evan spoke about “compromise”.. I don’t mean those kinds of things.. I don’t care about religion, nor about how much a man earns, not even what his educational level is.. His personality and our chemistry is enough.
Ands those are the ones lacking!
Very simply put; I have to feel sexually attracted to him.. and that is where it ends, since most men just don’t have it. Mentally the spark of lively curiosity in them died a long ago and now they know everything, and I should believe them that that is “all there is..”
Still I say, if that is “all there is”.. then I am rather without, and enjoy the life I have.
If someone who is different comes along (I do meet new men every couple of weeks), then I look at him again.
-NN- 52
Karl said:
You mean like Hugh Jackman (40), Will Smith (40), Jeffrey Donovan (41), and Brad Pitt (45)?
—————–
I am talking about real men who are single at their fourties – not filmstars who have an added interest keeping themselves in shape.
Single men are in 2 categories at their 40′s
1. those goodlooking eternal playboys, who think too much of themselves and behave like there are no social rules that would apply to them.
2. those who have totally given up, and think they should be accepted as they are..
There are few exceptions, but most of the men (at least online) tend to fall to one of those.
Thanks but no thanks.. if I want something that is missbehaving – I get a dog.
What you Evan spoke about “compromise”.. I don’t mean those kinds of things.. I don’t care about religion, nor about how much a man earns, not even what his educational level is.. His personality and our chemistry is enough.
Ands those are the ones lacking!
Very simply put; I have to feel sexually attracted to him.. and that is where it ends, since most men just don’t have it. Mentally the spark of lively curiosity in them died a long ago and now they know everything, and I should believe them that that is “all there is..”
Still I say, if that is “all there is”.. then I am rather without, and enjoy the life I have.
If someone who is different comes along (I do meet new men every couple of weeks), then I look at him again.
Ellen 53
What mystifies me is that in all other areas of life we are encouraged to be clear, upfront and goal-oriented. No one would suggest we be coy about whether or not we want a job when we’re pursuing one. Since a spouse is often regarded as more important even than other life goals (work, house, etc.) and hopefully will last a lifetime, why on earth would we need to be so cloaked about what it is we want or need for the betterment of our lives? For example, I don’t necessarily need YOU to be my husband, but I’m not afraid to be clear that a husband is something I want – NOT because I’m desperate, because I’m smart!! I’ve done the research: people in good marriages are happier, healthier and live longer than these oh-so-cool, can’t-mention-I’d-like-to-be-married singles. I think “playing it cool” so as not to have men think women are desperate is the lamest of game playing women can possibly do. And it doesn’t serve us at all. Oh, honey, just be patient. How many guys simply DON’T get around to it, are willing to string a woman along, and end up wasting each other’s time to the tune of 2-4+ years. The OP has extremely legitimate and intelligently articulated questions that deserve a more thoughtful and even respectful answer than to “be cool” and don’t act desperate.
Oh, and while we’re at it – what’s up with exclusivity while waiting for some dude to make up his mind, anyway? If (some) women want to be married and (some) men want to have time to figger it all out, then being exclusive while waiting for that to happen gives a man 100% want he wants (time) and only 50% of what she wants (engagement/marriage). Sounds like a RAW DEAL to me. How about we make that 50/50 or at least a win-win. Evan – what’s your take on Rori Raye’s Circular Dating?
Can you be objective?
Evan Marc Katz 54
Rori’s a friend of mine and super intuitive, but I’m not on board with the concept. If you see fit to date other men while we’re in a relationship because you don’t have a ring, I guess it’s okay for me to date other women, right? I didn’t think so. Fact is: dating while you have a commitment is also known as cheating. But if calling it Circular Dating makes you feel better, I’m all for it.
By the way, no man can waste your time unless you let him. You never heard me say to stay with a guy for 4 years without walking away. You heard me to resist the temptation to get answers in the first 3-6 months because your pressure is going to drive even the good ones away.
You can tell yourself that if he runs, he was never serious, but if you actually LISTEN TO MEN, they will tell you what I’ve told you – we don’t always have answers when you want answers.
vlh 55
Has everyone forgotten about fertility drugs? Yes, even a 60 year old woman can get pregnant these days, so relax. Science has made advancements that make the old timeframe for having children (more or less) obsolete. If you’re only 33, you have another 20 years to have kids, if you want them that badly.
Helen 56
Hmmm… that’s a very good point, vino. And that gets to the point I was trying to make in my earlier comment (the 2nd one on this posting).
It makes me wonder: how much of this desperation on the part of women to have children is truly biological vs. societal? I think society does put a LOT of pressure on women to have children, and oftentimes that clouds women’s judgment, and indeed does not give them the freedom to ask whether they really want kids in the first place.
But don’t blame just the women, vino. I think this is something American society in general – including both men and women – inflicts upon women: this silly notion that a woman is not complete without a child. You don’t see that kind of pressure in other parts of the world, such as Europe.
To prevent the kind of desperation that makes you so annoyed (and rightfully so) on your dates, we may need to completely overhaul society’s way of thinking about kids.
Helen 57
Evan, I don’t entirely agree with you on this. I don’t think it’s as black-and-white as you portray.
Consider this quote from Elisabeth Elliot’s book “Passion and Purity”:
Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right has he to claim her exclusive attention? Unless she has been asked to marry him, why would a sensible woman promise any man her exclusive attention? If, when the time has come for a commitment, he is not man enough to ask her to marry him, she should give him no reason to presume that she belongs to him.
Yes, she is old-fashioned and Christian… but there is a great deal of sense to her words.
Newbie 58
I just finalized my divorce last week. I figure in about 2-3 months, I’ll start dating again. I’ve given a lot of thought to this over the last year while my divorce was ongoing.
I am 46 and have 4 children. My eldest is 24 and will soon be married. I love all my kids, and I think my wife was a fantastic mother to them, and I was a great dad.
I will probably be dating women aged 34 to 48. Most women I date will be of child-bearing age, then, and I know I’ll have to keep their needs in mind as relationships deepen.
Regarding my own needs, I realized that I missed having a wife while we were raising our children over the last 15 years. We had difficulty carving out time for ourselves. I then began to take solace in work. We grew apart and the relationship became loveless.
I realized subsequently two things about myself and who I would want to marry the second time around if I had children with her.
1) Somebody who shares my values regarding how children should be raised, and which values the should be taught (in this regard, my ex and I were very similar)
2) Somebody who agrees that my relationship with her is a priority and that we will never lose ourselves so totally in raising children that we lose each other (we were not similar in this regard).
Those are huge issues. They take time IN ADDITION to the time it takes to see if we’re compatible as a couple to resolve that. Time you seem very anxious spending.
To reply to the question you had, let me start by saying your questions are legitimate and important to ask. To understand how a man might think, though, ask yourself as well then, how much time do you think a man needs before he feels you confidently fit the bill regarding being both a spouse and a mother.
I am not a man who is afraid of commitments at all. But as a divorced man, with a single relationship in my life, I am not confident I know enough about women to “just know” after a few months whether we can parent together. I don’t suppose I’m alone in this, and I think many men need the time you want to deny them. Maybe even a couple years. I’ll know much sooner whether we can be a couple in a long term relationship, but it’s not a sign of me not taking parenthood seriously if I take time, it’s the opposite.
Men ALSO don’t want to squander their lives. They want to be in a relationship that suits their needs for growth, not just yours. Men who’ve already raised children might feel they’ve already “been there, done that”, and want to minimize the errors “next time”. But even so, many like me would be willing to do it again WITH THE RIGHT WOMAN. But again it takes time to discover who she is.
So if the time I spend being careful bothers you, it shouldn’t be interpreted that as though I am not committed. It’s that I’m watching. I will take my time, probably at least a year (most likely more), before I would feel confident committing to being both a spouse and a father. If that leaves you 2 years older with the prospect of having only me for the rest of your life, and no children, maybe we’re not right for each other.
To add to the above, what would I be looking for in a mother who is also my spouse? I’d like to see how you are around kids. Are you kind even to animals? To elderly? You might get bonus points for being a teacher of young children, or special ed teachers, or a psychologist – as I’d sense you’d be a nurturing person. I’d want time to confirm it.
I’d be wary if you’re an attorney (sorry – divorce did that to me) or a stock broker or the like. I am just saying regarding the latter two, if you didn’t want kids, I probably would find lots of ways we’re compatible as a couple, but I would assume less compatible as parents. I will need time to be proven wrong.
I know it’s hard to be patient – but it’s really necessary.
Jennifer 59
I think this is what lulled some women into a false sense of security. Yeah there are fertility drugs and treatements but they are very expensive, often uncomfortable, emotionally draining, and have fairly low success rates, particularly as you age.
If a woman wants to carry her own biological children she’s working within a timeline, and it really doesn’t extend to her 50′s and 60′s. This doesn’t have to be a scary or ‘bad’ thing either, just something that has to be taken into account when making life and relationship decisions.
Desiree 60
Excellent post and you hit the nail on the head.
Steve 61
Amen.
Life circumstances turned such that my sister tried to get pregnant at about 45. She was willing to go through the hassle of adoption but couldn’t afford the costs. She owns her own home in a suburb of New Jersey we will not mention.
The drugs were expensive and really screwed with her body. She eventually gave up much poorer, heavier, and exhausted from the physiological rollercoaster from the drugs.
Bob 62
All I can say to this Helen, is if I can’t consider a woman “mine” before I propose, then I’m free to go have sex with any woman I want. After all, if I don’t have the right to her exclusive attention, then she doesn’t have a right to mine.
How then does that approach promote a monogamous relationship?
Ava 63
@ Newbie
This isn’t to say that you wouldn’t be a great spouse, but If I was a 30-something woman who really wanted a family, a man who had just finalized his divorce after a lengthy marriage and already had 4 kids would not be my first choice in a partner. I’d probably be looking for a guy closer to my own age with no children, who was not at all on the fence about wanting them.
The men I’ve dated who don’t really want kids have been very clear with me about that, usually within the first month or so of dating. Conversely, the men I’ve known who really did want kids have been just as clear with me and with my friends, or at the very least, “open” to having them.
girl-with-glasses 64
Thank you for your reply=). I have to say it’s probably because I’m of asian american descent that I over do the passive-aggressive feminine seductive thing with respect to men. To me, playing coy is part of the charm of my interactions with the opposite sex. Men do know it’s just a pose, but it’s still enjoyable. That’s why sometimes I find the direct state-what-you-want tactics of other women to be a bit bewildering. However, ultimately, a woman has to do what she’s most comfortable with and believes is right. You have to do what work for you right? Everyone has their own particular circumstances; it was good to hear your views.
vino 65
I haven’t any clue on the biological vs. societal pressures. I’m not one to cut tons of slack on the societal pressures that people aren’t complete w/o kids & therefore need to procreate. Hell, they’re only TV ads & annoying comments from mothers/aunts/friends etc., who can be told to take a hike.
I have to say I’d have more sympathy to the biological impetus.
The problem for women in their 30′s is that they’ve already had their best child bearing years in their 20′s. That isn’t to say it doesn’t happen in the 30′s at all, it’s just that biologically speaking, 20′s are better for that than 30′s. I think being told you can have it all by way of career, family, etc., hasn’t been terribly effective, as we are seeing.
As a guy in his 30′s I’ve dated women ages 23-44 in the last 12 months. And while I don’t want kids, you can bet your bippy that if I did, I’d be focusing on the 20-somethings. This is the other issue I think the OP has…that guys in her preferred age range (I’m guessing 30-40), not only want, but can get, women in their 20′s (assuming they aren’t slobs).
Also, I’ve had more than a few guy friends tell me that why would they want someone whose spent the last 10-15 years solely focused on themselves, whether it is career, a glaring lack of career (ie. – party girl), dating around, etc. A buddy even used the old “town doorknob” crack. They don’t see how being so self-focused prepares someone for motherhood and a family. Now that she is in her 30′s and wants to settle down, they don’t see why they should pay for it (it being her greater desire for child and marriage), as her best years are behind her. They have a point.
Analogy – a new, fresh Porsche 911 is about $90k, give or take. However, the ’99 Porsche 911 with 89k miles on the odometer isn’t worth that same $90k, but that’s exactly what the ’99 Porsche wants you to think. It sounds very cold, I know, but sometimes reality ain’t terribly pretty with a nice veneer over it…
Diana 66
It’s hypocritical for your guy friends to wonder why they’d want someone who has spent the past 10-15 years seemingly focused only on themselves when that is very likely exactly what they have done. And the thought that a woman in her 30s has her best years behind her biologically speaking, or in any other way is naive. The 30s are often considered the best years of a human’s life.
Comparing the value of a human being to a Porsche is not only cold, but it’s not reality either. As a man in his 30s, is this how you feel about yourself and your friends? Not likely. I’d say you present yourself as if you’re worth a new, fresh Porsche.
Curly Girl 67
@Newbie: Yeah. I’ve dated many divorced guys and the errors they have made in dating are this:
1) Talking ad nauseum about their ex, their kids, their past experiences with some woman who is not me. I was alive with a life before I met these divorced guys, and their traumatic married experiences do not trump my less-traumatic single experiences.
2) Thinking that they know all about relationship when they were the ones who had failed marriages and I dodged that particular nasty bullet.
3) Thinking that I am some kind of plaything because I am single and dating and they are now free to “play” after years of being “trapped.”
4) Expecting me to pay more than my share because they have a whole host of financial obligations to their “real” relationships and I am, you know, just one of those career women who isn’t kind or nurturing because I’m too busy chewing people up and spitting them out to notice anyone else.
5) Thinking that women who are much younger are going to be falling all over themselves to go out with them, because they are suddenly available to date much younger women (now that they’ve gotten rid of the ex who was probably age-appropriate–well, they’ve gotten rid of her physically, at least, though neither emotionally nor financially).
6) Thinking that a woman with many options is going to be waiting for them to make up their minds.
LK 68
That’s pretty harsh. I am 32 and would love to be married by now and on track to create a family. However, I have not met the right person yet. The lead contender so far wound up not working out for a variety of situational and personal reasons.
I have been focused on a career and done a bit of traveling in the meantime, but what was I supposed to do? Sit around twiddling my thumbs, making zero use of my education, and expecting that Prince Charming will show up and fund my 401(k)? If anything, the reason for my career focus has been to set myself up financially to help support a family as well as a contingency plan to support myself if I don’t find a partner.
I don’t understand the attitude that a man has to “pay for” a woman’s desire to settle down. If that’s your attitude towards marriage — that its drawbacks outweigh its advantages — then you’re probably not ready to get married anyway. So, what’s the issue? I will not date a man who acts as though women are trying to “trap” him into a commitment. One whiff of that and I’m out the door. BTDT. There are enough men in their mid/late 30s who DO want to have a family, and I stick to those.
A reasonable percentage of my online dating traffic comes from men who are in their late 40s and finally looking to settle down and have a family. I will not consider dating someone who (a) is closer to my parents’ age than my own and (b) will be approximately 50 when our first child would be born. I wonder if any of those men had negative attitudes towards settling down in their mid/late 30s. If so, they may be regretting it now. Sometimes the tide winds up shifting.
Finally, I hope the next woman you date doesn’t compare you to a 10-year-old piece of machinery.
Newbie 69
Ava, hi
Similarly, I’m mostly interested in women closer to my age – about 42-46, who prefer not to have children. I’m open to younger women who prefer having children ONLY because I want a relationship with a woman who’s right for me. So, I am expanding the population of my search. But essentially, I agree with you, for someone in your situation we would likely never meet.
I don’t know (and am curious myself to discover this) whether having been with only one partner for 26 years, “just having finalized it” recently and having had 4 children already (though they live on another continent, sadly) makes me a less desirable choice. I can certainly understand why one would think that a single man closer to your age would be a better “first choice”. This assertion makes a lot of sense, even though there are some advantages to men who have experience parenting – but on the whole I don’t disagree with you.
I think if men (and women) are open about what they want regarding children, that’s great. These seem to be the men you’ve met, and they’ve told you within a month. That’s reasonable. All I’m really saying is that both men and women don’t really understand (and it’s probably a good thing they don’t or there’d be no children) how important it is to assess a spouse as both a partner AND a parent, and to gain a establish clear ground rules about how each of these values (couplehood ad parenthood) will be treated when they conflict, which is A LOT of the time. And it takes a LOT of time before you know someone well enough to do that, unless for some reason you know you share most of your values (as many tight religious communities do, for example). I was just offering friendly advice, and I was only trying to explain why someone who actually experiences the clash of values (it could be even the child of a divorce) would be a bit ambivalent about committing up front. I think those are the kinds of men you’ll confront, and they are such a large part of the “dating pool” now that to focus only on men your age who’ve always been single may work now, but in a few years it’ll become less easy to find them.
Good luck with your search, Ava – you seem like a very nice person.
Diana 70
My former husband and I were very much in sync on how to raise our children, the amount of family time spent together, etc., yet absolutely nothing could have prepared us for what parenthood is like. We discussed our parental ideas before we married, too, and while we were and continue to be great parents, we sometimes wondered, “What did we do!?” [LOL]
Parenting is hard work, and of course, exceedingly rewarding, too. But yes, it’s a good thing our perceived ideas of what parenting will be like are not the same as the reality.
Ava 71
@ Newbie
I am actually over 45, don’t have kids and don’t want them. But I’ve dated a lot, and so have my friends, and am simply relating my personal experience. Most men I date don’t want kids, or don’t want MORE kids, and they have been very clear up front about that. Of course, it takes some time to know if another person is right for you. My point is, knowing early on whether or not someone wants to be a parent at the very least puts you both on the same page. And for a woman (or a man) whose clock is ticking, that is half the battle.
BTW, have you considered dating someone who is actually a couple of years OLDER than yourself? (Not me, I’m dating someone)!
Good luck to you also.
@ Curly Girl
Your post hits the nail on the head!
vino 72
It’s not hypocritical at all. Look at the proffered situation. Woman in her 30′s who wants to get married and have kids. This usually (though not always) entails mom staying home with the child for the first several years of the child’s life, being the primary caregiver. Generally, hubby has to go and work, not taking the primary caregiver role. Sot it is perfectly valid for them to examine how self-centered the women they meet are as criteria for motherhood.
“And the thought that a woman in her 30s has her best years behind her biologically speaking, or in any other way is naive. The 30s are often considered the best years of a human’s life.”
- I didn’t say that or that conclusion at all. I did say that the 20′s are best for child bearing. You took it a direction I did not.
As far as the Porsche analogy is concerned, please tone down the personal hostility to me, as I haven’t said anything towards you personally. You may not like the analogy’s accuracy, but when as a guy, you are looking at someone as marriage & mom material, you are also giving 1/2 your assets & income by law, not to mention supporting the child. It is cold, but because of these concerns, marriage has historically been a business decision, and should be viewed as such. In that light, you don’t want to overpay for the ’99 Porsche. By the way, women have many of their own criteria for a suitable mate, which I’m not deriding here.
vino 73
LK,
It is harsh. So it the reality. That’s not to say it’s bad. It just is…
Sometimes on this blog almost everyone wants or needs to view relationships & dating through rose-colored glasses, and detest differing views.
Please don’t shoot me, the messenger, for news you may not like, as I haven’t attacked you personally.
“I don’t understand the attitude that a man has to pay for a woman’s desire to settle down. If that’s your attitude towards marriage that its drawbacks outweigh its advantages then you’re probably not ready to get married anyway.”
- As I mentioned above, a man does have to pay for it by way of 1/2 of income and assets, supporting the child. In the event of divorce, he’ll lose 1/2 of those assets and income , and have to pay alimony & child support. So objective speaking, he does pay for it. This is fact. Simply stating the fact doesn’t translate into an insult I’m not ready for marriage. But if that makes you feel better….
Everything you’ve said doesn’t disprove anything I said. The thought occurs though, If you are setting yourself up financially in case you don’t find a partner, why not have the child now? You need not be married for that nowadays. Heck, you don’t even need a guy. I’m not trying to be glib. I am trying to point out that you seem to have placed more emphasis on your contingency plan than finding a partner to start that family. Perhaps because your contingency plan takes more time, effort & energy…
Karl R 74
Elisabeth Elliot’s book asks:
“Unless a man is prepared to ask a woman to be his wife, what right has he to claim her exclusive attention? Unless she has been asked to marry him, why would a sensible woman promise any man her exclusive attention?”
If a woman (or man) can’t be monogamous prior to being engaged, why would any sensible person assume that they will suddenly become capable after the proposal?
LK 75
“If you are setting yourself up financially in case you don’t find a partner, why not have the child now?” Because I think it’s important for a child to have a father.
“I am trying to point out that you seem to have placed more emphasis on your contingency plan than finding a partner to start that family. Perhaps because your contingency plan takes more time, effort & energy” What can I do aside from continue to try meeting people and/or work on relationships when I am in them? Does having some financial stability and a sense of financial responsibility to myself make me a off-putting partner to a man? I honestly don’t understand this line of thinking.
“As I mentioned above, a man does have to pay for it by way of 1/2 of income and assets, supporting the child.” As I would expect to contribute as well. Do most men just have no desire to have a child? How is it a one-way relationship?
girl-with-glasses 76
Vino, I tend to like your posts.
Alot of women seem not be able to accept that the world doesn’t revolve around them and their aging biological apparatuses (especially the male sex drive and psyche). Oh well.
Porsche analogy, a-ok with me. Men tend to be passionate about their cars, but I think especially porsche owners!! If a man know as much about me as he does about the car and how to handle and care for it, pampered even, I’d be one happy girl.
Diana 77
I appreciate your further clarifying your earlier comments. There was something about your message that felt disrespectful of women. I do apologize for writing too personally.
vino 78
Oh GWG, you do tease…
I bet you like waxing too.
Cars, that is….
Honey 79
I was having an interesting conversation with some friends today about how, before marriage, there should be a prenup – to ensure compensation for whichever partner is going to stay home and be the primary caregiver. That person is not only giving up his/her income during the primary caregiving years, but may never have his/her income restored to the levels it would have been had he/she not taken time off.
I found this particularly interesting because, prenup or alimony, it comes to the same – the partner giving up his/her earning power is compensated appropriately. A prenup would obviously be better because the deal would be negotiated in good faith prior to any relationship problems, whereas alimony is often determined in…acrimony.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Obama and Sarkozy Staring At Hot Chick’s Ass =-.
Newbie 80
Yes, Ava – actually in my first comment I said I was considering dating women from age 34 to 48 – that’s two years older than me. The woman I was married to is 3.5 years older than me. Older women aren’t the problem. The point I was making is that sometimes we (I suspect at least this will be true of me) need to expand the dating pool to find the right person. All I was saying was that I would consider dating younger women than my ideal range (say, younger than 40) and being a parent again IF that was the only way I could find a partner that was suitable for me.
It’s true that we could find someone just right – in your case someone who wants to be a parent and is compatible with you. My priority is to find someone compatible with me, and if they want to be a parent (which they probably will if they are younger) I’m just saying it would take me longer to make a decision to enter a marriage with them.
So I’m not sure how to answer your question if you were to ask me. Do I want to be a parent? The answer is I’ve not decided – with the right woman, I’d agree to have one or two more children. That sounds too squishy an answer to satisfy someone who needs to know in the space of a month, which someone who’s over 45 would probably want.
Which is another reason that I’d only date women who are age 45 who do NOT want to have children or more children. I just need time – and at that age, they won’t feel they have it. Most women I see at that age either do not or are not sure if they want more children, and that’s one reason why I prefer dating women older than 40. But this is all theory for me at this point – maybe I’ll change my mind when I start dating in a couple months.
Newbie 81
CG, thanks for the heads up. One reason I’m on this site is precisely to gain perspectives like yours. A reply:
1) Why someone would want to talk about their past relationships, I don’t know. Only after a few dates do I think it’d be appropriate to discuss “relationships” in general, and of course a lot of what we know about relationships will come from our experiences. Is this wrong to your mind? It seems so, but I’m just feeling my way through this – so I’m not sure
2) At this point, I prefer to date a divorced woman for the reason you mention. Generally, it seems many singles think that a person whose marriage ended after 2 decades must have “failed” at relationships.
Ever try to maintain a relationship that long? It’s no failure at all. It’s a success for anyone who can, and do so faithfully as I had. The failure in my case as I see it was in how it ended not in how it was maintained, but I know I did my best and that’s going to have to be good enough.
That said, I agree that I don’t know as much about relationships as a single would. I’ve only had one in my life, but I have to start somewhere. I’m looking for a woman with enough patience to realize that I have to spend some time filling in the blanks, and I’m just fine not having relationships with others who can’t do that. They probably wouldn’t be right for me anyway.
3) I know men like this and can’t relate to them at all. It’s another reason I’m on this site – Evan’s is one of the only site’s I’ve found that is well-rounded enough to treat meetings between men and women as a beginning of a relationship rather than of a “pick up”. I just can’t wrap my mind around how men can do this.
4) I don’t understand at all what you mean by this.
5) I think this odd. Why can’t a person just date someone because they’re compatible as persons? Some of “compatibility” will be age related. And, I have my own preferences, not more than 4 years younger than me, and not more than 2 years older. The women who’s profiles I most prefer are between 41 and 46 (usually toward the older end of that range).
But if I and a woman are compatible and she’s younger than that (within limits) or older (within limits), why do you think that a man is thinking women are “falling all over themselves” for them? And why do you think that a man who divorces a woman who’s “age appropriate” was looking to rid themselves of them so that they could get something better “physically”? This is just patently untrue.
From what I can tell, most women have no problem with an approach from a man even ten years older than them – and some will for reasons I can’t fathom accept it from even older men. I am careful to not approach women who’s age range in “ideal match” is not suited to my age. But the tone of what you’ve written sounds too judgmental, as if all men looking at a younger women as a prospect don’t see her as a person rather than a statistic. People are just looking for companionship, CG, and age isn’t really that important a factor in that UNLESS one or the other wants children. That’s the only reason I brought it up, if you look at my original thread.
6) It’s a free market, so to speak. Nobody should wait if they’ve got something better. But if the pickings were so abundantly good, everybody’d be married or in LTR’s, am I wrong? Food for thought.
vino 82
I hear ya Diane. However, I don’t get the ‘disrespectful of women’ thing. Individuals of both genders and all races earn respect as individuals. It is not freely given by virtue of being a member of a certain gender or race.
vino 83
Whoa, Honey. I’m gonna have to disagree with you here.
The law already provides what you suggest. There are a couple of things in play here.
One, the current ‘family’ laws already compensate by imputing 1/2 of the income of each spouse to the other. So the primary caregiver IS compensated for staying home. The husband who earns $120k after taxes ($10k/mo) only gets $5k of the $10k per month. The stay-at-home caregiver by law is imputed to receive the other $5k. From this flows 1/2 of all property purchased during the marriage, etc.
So stay-at-home IS compensated. Otherwise she/he would have to work, find and pay for housing, transportation, food, clothing, etc…
Isn’t that why women generally seek marriage prospects with decent financial prospects?
Or do you suggest that the stay-at-home receive more than 1/2???
Two, what you suggest is absolving people from choices and consequences of their decisions.
“That person is not only giving up his/her income during the primary caregiving years, but may never have his/her income restored to the levels it would have been had he/she not taken time off.”
- But they DID take time off. They placed a higher value (opportunity cost) on having kids than staying in the workforce and current in his/her field, therefore EARNING that income. Your phrasing suggests that one’s income can simply *poof* be restored after taking years off. This not only demeans those who stayed working 40, 50, 60+ hours per week, it unjustly enriches the person who was not working those hours and staying current in their field. Quite frankly, it sounds worse than Marxist.
You have to make choices in life, and bear the consequences of those choices. Honey’s approach is a consequence-free to the chooser, placing the burdens on the poor spouse and others in the workforce.
Now, were the government not so intimately involved in family affairs by redistributing income and assets, you could have more of a point.
Personally, I think gov’t should not be involved in such a manner, and the current state of the laws are an anachronism . It should be out of the divorce business completely. Consenting adults who can both go into the workforce and earn equally can structure their affairs as Honey suggests via a simple contract. Such a contract would be enforceable in civil court, not ‘family’ court.
Honey 84
The example that this conversation arose out of is a woman who was a trust-fund baby wanting her husband-to-be to stay home…it was suggested he get a prenup because he would be the one whose income would be lost. So it’s certainly nothing to do with gender roles.
And while BOTH people choose the “opportunity cost” of lost income to start a family, it is the person who leaves the workforce who experiences a lifelong loss in income/standard of living if anything goes wrong with the relationship.
Also, while if (for example) the BF and I were to get married, yes, the money would be 50/50, so I’d be “entitled” to half his income (not that I like that choice of words). However, our combined incomes would decrease by about 1/3 – so to say I am entitled to 2/3 of the income that we would receive if we were both working is some fuzzy math, indeed.
Personally, I find it interesting only from an intellectual perspective, since we are not having children and I don’t ever anticipate not working. But since many men pressure women into being the ones to give up their work to have a family, I could certainly understand that the one making that compromise would want something in place to protect his/her income loss in the event that things didn’t work out. Of course such an agreement (since it would be negotiated in good faith during the happiest part of the relationship) would include an agreement determining the threshold after which additional support would no longer be necessary.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Obama and Sarkozy Staring At Hot Chick’s Ass =-.
Kristyn 85
I think Honey’s point is very valid. When my kids were little, my then husband and I both thought it better to have one of us at home instead of raising our kids in child care. Not only did I lose out on years of investing in my career for something we both thought was beneficial to our family – I also am just starting to save for my own retirement. I’m not saying I should be making as much as someone who has been working and being promoted during the years I was at home. I’m saying that “we” made a choice together and now I am the one who has lost more. FYI – I didn’t get alimony.
vino 86
“And while BOTH people choose the opportunity cost of lost income to start a family, it is the person who leaves the workforce who experiences a lifelong loss in income/standard of living if anything goes wrong with the relationship.”
- Um, that isn’t accurate. The laws give spouses 1/2 of the property acquired during marriage, and most alimony provisions take into account maintaining the ex’s standard of living. Not to mention the payor of alimony and child support’s standard of living ain’t exactly ‘enhanced.’ Can’t ignore that either, tempting though it may be. Or doesn’t that count? Or if so, only marginally in relation to the stay-at-home martyr?
Let’s be clear. The stay-at-home person chooses to stay home. If she/he doesn’t want to, they don’t have kids. They aren’t enslaved. It’s that simple. No gun is held to the head. So please don’t shift that choice (and attendant responsibility) to both parties suddenly. Again, when one chooses to leave the workforce he/she also chooses to leave the the skills, effort, and time that EARN the paycheck. But they should still be paid for that, right?
No mention of already being ‘paid’ via imputed income during marriage, I see. This is why, all else being equal, women generally want to marry up economically, and detest marrying down economically in general. I’m not knocking it, just calling it for what it is & how it works. Or is it just pay me more? Blech.
The ever-increasing number of single mothers who do not stop working refute your assertion.
- The thought occurs – the stay-at-home gets paid to stay AND gets paid to leave. What a win-win for her (since it likely ain’t gonna be him, looking at alimony stats)! Holy entitlement, Batman!
“The example that this conversation arose out of is a woman who was a trust-fund baby wanting her husband-to-be to stay home it was suggested he get a prenup because he would be the one whose income would be lost. So it’s certainly nothing to do with gender roles.”
- Actually, it does. While you cite this example, it is far and away less frequently occurring. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I’m also guessing that husband-to-be will never have access to the trust funds, as a trust is designed (a good one is, at least) to prevent spouses from getting the money her dad/grandfather/mom/etc. worked for…
“Also, while if (for example) the BF and I were to get married . . . so to say I am entitled to 2/3 of the income that we would receive if we were both working is some fuzzy math, indeed.”
- This (and its math) makes no sense whatsoever. You aren’t “entitled” to 1/2 hubby’s income. It IS yours by law. You can’t option out of that unless by prenup or postnup. Vice-versa, too.
Sorry, I find the whole premise of nauseating and selfish.
girl-with-glasses 87
*cough* cough*. sorry. I probably did get an extra injection of testosterone in the womb or something, my mind tend to be more masculine, i.e. more systematic, more visual, and more principal oriented, and I think going around telling people they’re just wrong is funny.
Anyways, yes I tend to be Porshe crazy, perfect fusion of art and tech and speed!!!
Jennifer 88
Thanks for mentioning this Kristyn. Alimony is far from a foregone conclusion.
Karl R 89
-NN- said:
“I am talking about real men who are single at their fourties – not filmstars who have an added interest keeping themselves in shape.”
I could name a number of “real men” (not celebrities) in their 40s, 50s and even 60s who stay in shape. However, I don’t think you would know any of them, so it would be rather pointless.
“There are few exceptions,”
Which means there are exceptions. And if you’re not finding those exceptions online, figure out where you can find them.
And as long as you meet the criteria that you set for the men (sexually attractive with a spark of lively curiosity), you should be able to find what you want.
(I feel it necessary to make that point, after the time I listened to a woman rant for 20 minutes about how she wasn’t attracted to men who had pot bellies … even though her gut was hanging over her belt in front too.)
Jennifer 90
Not everyone gets half, Vino.
Selena 91
I had my son at 22, thereby avoiding the biological clock angst in my 30′s. As a single mother when in my 30′s, curiously almost all the men I dated were childless and of the “I might want to have kids… someday” bent. Never bothered me, but I can see how it would have if I wanted a child. ‘Someday’ is so vague as to be meaningless. Is someday 35? 38? 42? 45? Older than that? Are these ‘someday’ guys now the one’s in their mid to late 40′s on dating sites seeking a 30 – something woman to procreate with? Could very well be.
At 37, I met a guy I really clicked with. In that magical, “I never thought this could happen to me” way. It seemed to be mutual. He was also 37 and childless. Someday had come for him – he wanted to get married and have 5 kids, but told me he would ‘settle’ for 2. But by then my son was 15. I was looking forward to being childfree in 3 years, I didn’t want to start all over “from scratch” so to speak. I had already put in my time in terms of childrearing.
We went back and forth a bit with each other about it, but it just wasn’t something either of us could *compromise* on. So, he told me we shouldn’t continue to see each other. He said, and I will never forget this, “I’d rather hurt you a little now, than alot later on.” I was very disappointed at the time, but he was right. And honest. It was THAT important to him and by continuing to date we would have been wasting each others’ time, as well as preventing him from his search for the woman who wanted to be his wife and mother of his children.
SK, I’ve read Evan’s response as well as all the other comments on this thread and I think if having a biological child is THAT important to you, you are best off laying the card on the table early on in whatever fashion suits your personality. You might scare off the “on the fence” guys, true. You might miss out on guys like Evan and his two friends who needed a year to decide to commit. But you may also be able to weed out the ‘someday’ guys before becomming attached, freeing you to meet the men who really do want to have children within your time frame.
It turned out to be a good thing it never worked out with the ‘someday’ guys I dated. I started menopause at 42.
vino 92
VAST majority do. Ya have to look at what happens most often, not what happens rarely. Of course, it’s human nature to only want to focus on facts that support their preexisting conclusions, rather than let all of the facts drive the conclusions. Kinda puts the cart before the horse.
Bob 93
No, not EVERYONE gets half.
But if you go read the stats (and are honest about what you read), you know VERY well that it’s a RARE circumstance when a woman doesn’t get 1/2 his income afterward, PLUS support/alimony…basically a majority of his income.
Even in cases where the woman has been clearly demonstrated “at fault” (in “fault” states), it’s still largely this way.
A woman has to demonstrate some very eggregious behaviour for this to not occur…while a man merely has to say “I do”, and the deal is done.
Not very “equitable”, eh?
Jennifer 94
If im not mistaken, the majority of the time when you talk about women getting half you are talking about women who were stay at home Moms for the majority, or entirety, of the marriage. There are enough women who don’t do that and don’t get half that I feel they should be factored into what a man considers when considering marriage. Marriage doesn’t automatically mean losing half his income if he divorces and i think that’s worth saying.
Bob 95
Well, then, you’ve just agreed with both Vino and me regarding women getting half a significant majority of the time.
‘Nuff said.
vino 96
@Jennifer
Educational primer – married couple. He earns $100k, she $50. The law says she receives 1/2 of his $100k, or $50. It also says he receives 1/2 of her $$50k, or $25, giving each of them $75k. That is how the 1/2 income operates. So she does get 1/2 of his income regardless. Also, in this example she gets more than what she economically brings into the marriage. Again, a windfall, if you will. He necessarily keeps less of what he earns, and she receives more.
So while married, she receives 1/2 of the income & assets. This is how it functions if one stays home and doesn’t work or does work.
In the case of stay-at-home, he absolutely does lose 1/2 of what he earned and purchased. In the example above, it’s a 1/3 loss.
In any event, she does receive more. The stats bear this out. Per census & IRS data, women earn more than men in 30% of marriages. Guess who pays the alimony? Yep, men. To the tune of 96%. Looking at these numbers, it means that women who earn more only stand about a 10-11% chance of really paying alimony, while his odds of paying it are nearly 100%.
I’m going to requote something from that Gottleib article I noted above to bring it back around:
So if you rarely see your husband but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?
It matters to me, as the one likely to pay in the end.
Therefore, if you are evaluating a 30 something woman as marriage and mother material, it is relevant and critical to evaluate her choices and behaviors in deciding whether she is suitable. I submit that spending over a decade in pursuit of sole self gratification (job, partying, sex, etc) ill prepares her for motherhood and marriage. The quote reveals a happy obsession with only her wants and a shocking indifference to hubby’s or anyone else’s.
This decades-long self-centered practiced behavior isn’t something you suddenly change overnight at age 35 when you realize the biological clock is banging away like church bells.
Just because you can have kids, doesn’t mean you have the skills and behaviors to successfully marry, bear and raise kids.
That’s why it’s relevant. Because when it blows up, the guy is likely to pay, nearly 100% of the time.
Jennifer 97
@Bob- you seem to think i’m trying my hardest to disagree with you and vino and prove some type of personal point. that’s not the case. I’m simply pointing out that women don’t always get half in a divorce, and it ‘s even less likely that they get half if they weren’t stay at home Mom’s. That’s it.
@Vino- You said ‘the law says she’s gets half of his 100k’- that’s where I get tripped up. I get what you are saying, but i’m not familiar with that law.
As i understand it there are various calculations made to determine who gets what in the dissolution of a marriage, and whether or not a spouse was working, and for how long, is a key factor in what type of alimony/support, if any, they receive. That’s all I was trying to point out.
I know a couple that recently got divorced and everyone just *knew* he was going to be taken to the cleaners but it wasn’t the case at all, and their income disparity might as well have been what you outlined in your example. This is one thing that leads me to understand that ‘she gets half’ is not a written in stone, gonna happen no matter what type of event, even though it definitely can, and does, happen.
vino 98
Jennifer, there are 2 things to keep in mind – during marriage & after.
During she most assuredly gets 1/2. They buy a house – She gets 1/2. Schwab account – 1/2. 401(k) – 1/2.
Upon divorce the acquired assets are split 1/2. So she got 1/2 of of all income and assets during marriage.
After divorce alimony can be a bit more complicated, and varying by state-to-state. In my above example, she’d been working for some time, so he wouldn’t have to give 1/2 of his income, but I bet he’d have to give SOMETHING, which is nonsensical when you consider she’d been working.
It’s more complicated when the higher earner owns their own business, for the assets to divide, and income/alimony are harder to differentiate and explain here. But when you own your own service business (dentist, dr, cpa), you get royally screwed and end up forking over over 50% of your income later more often than not.
The salient point is that the higher earner has far more to lose economically, and almost always does. With ‘no fault’ divorce, it is in the lesser earner’s (or no earner’s) interest to put some time in and then leave, taking with them 1/2 of everything acquired during marriage, and often alimony.
Again, this is the backdrop against which you have to evaluate your potential mates as marriage and mother/father material. Selfish people going in will likely be more so coming out….
hunter 99
Selena, men always pick on the woman that doesn’t want what they want.
Diana 100
Alimony laws vary by state, but I think that unless alimony is requested as part of the divorce decree, there is no law that says it MUST be included. I had no desire to request alimony, though I lost 50% of our family’s household income when I lost my husband. People thought that I should request it because given the circumstances for the divorce, and our very long-term marriage, it was presumed to be a given by the judge. But I did not want to financially destroy him.
Jennifer 101
I understand your point vino.
vino 102
@ Diana,
I know divorce lawyers. They request in IN EVERY CASE and fight like hell for it. Failure to request and fight for it is malpractice.
While it is laudable that you did not want to financially destroy your ex, you are citing the rare exception, not the rule.
Try googling H. Beatty Chadwick. He’s a guy who was finally released this week after 14 years (let that sink in a moment) in jail on a contempt charge for failing to pay alimony. No trial, just 14 years in the pokey. In divorce, wife received substantial assets (in millions). All wife had to do was say “No, I don’t want the alimony. Let him go.”
She didn’t. Let him rot, she did. Even after getting millions.
Rare? Yes. Extreme? Yes. But citing the rarely occurring examples doesn’t mean it occurs in every case (or even a majority of cases), which is what I’m saying about your example above. I look at what happens most.
Again, you have to look at people’s selfishness in relation to their suitability to be a wife or husband to avoid these results.
My point is that women like the OP who have spent their entire lives only caring about themselves (and boy, does that letter show it) are more likely to act as the former Mrs. Chadwick did.
hunter 103
I have always wondered why some women, while in their 20′s, would not worry about the future or marriage. It would make sense to start early.
vino 104
I hear ya. The thought also occurred…. why spend 10+ years on a career only to leave it to have kids & stay home? Career re-entry, while not impossible, is often exceedingly difficult. Wouldn’t it make sense to spend the best child bearing years doing actually that – bearing kids? Provided that’s what they want.
Then again, maybe some want time to ‘play the field’ prior to settling down, staying home and having kids. While I don’t condemn that in the slightest, I think you have to evaluate that for what it is. As I noted above, many guys don’t want to buy that used car.
If they want to have kids so badly (as careerist women), I have no issue with that analytically. There are sperm banks to realize that goal. I come back to the Gottleib article quote noted above. If I’m going to be viewed as a sperm donor, wallet and occasional babysitter that allows her to spend more time with her child while being unloved myself, I’m out ’cause I deserve far better. All men should approach it this way.
I trust I need not mention that what I say does not apply in every case, but a whole heckuva lotta them.
downtowngal 105
A couple of thoughts:
(1) Evan, shame on you for your sarcastic response. She’s asking how to read guys and you’re slamming her for the desparate tone of her letter. Women are told we have a smal window of time, and dating advisors like yourself keep telling us how guys like younger women, so you could be more constructive in how we should approach the ‘next step’.
(2) Many women would love to settle down in their 20′s, but many guys at that age aren’t emotionally ready. Also, many women have careers and marriages – actually almost all of the women I work with are married. Maybe it’s the guys who need to heed some advice.
(3) I don’t think it’s wrong to have expectations for life goals and discuss them. As long as it’s communiated properly. After a while, if a guy doesn’t seem to know what he wants then there’s your answer. In my expereince if a guy says he doesn’t want to have kids, he probably doesn’t. You could ‘accidentally’ get pregnant (which some women do to get a guy to commit) but that’s not a way to have a trusting relationship.
And, yes, there are guys who ademantly say ‘no’ yet embrace the situation when faced with it. I’ve known guys who just can’t get off the pot end up as ‘proud’ family men after the girl they’ve been schtupping on the rebound ends up preggos.
(4) When I was in my early 30′s I was approached by many men in their 40′s and thought it was creepy. I also felt I had little in common with them. Now that I’m older these same guys are still single and creepy.
Bottom line: Go with your gut. If a guy’s intersted in marriage & kids you’ll know based on his actions.
Jennifer 106
Excellent point Downtowngal about many men not being interested in marriage in their 20′s. I’m sure there are plenty of 25 year old women that would love to get married and have kids, but if the guys their age aren’t willing to do that yet and they don’t want t odate older men, what are they to do? Great point that is often overlooked.
Bob 107
“…many men not being interested in marriage in their 20′s. I’m sure there are plenty of 25 year old women that would love to get married and have kids, but if the guys their age aren’t willing to do that yet and they don’t want to date older men, what are they to do? Great point that is often overlooked.”
What are they to do?
They are to date the men who ARE interested in having a family, or not have a family yet…that simple.
If they aren’t willing to date the “older” men (whatever definition that is), then obviously age is more important to them than having children.
When men express a preference for women of a different age-group, (either older or younger), they’re accused of being shallow…why the double standard for women who disdain men as potential partners and fathers simply because of their age?
A trite phrase comes to mind when thinking of such women: “It’s like looking to the east for a sunset.”
vino 108
“(2) Many women would love to settle down in their 20′s, but many guys at that age aren’t emotionally ready. Also, many women have careers and marriages – actually almost all of the women I work with are married. Maybe it’s the guys who need to heed some advice.”
- Again (not that dtg has done it repeatedly, just that many others have) with the unprovable ‘not ready to settle down’ swipe. Perhaps b/c generally women expect guys to pay for them (ladies) to stay home and bear kids (for the 1st few years, at least), the guys in 20′s who aren’t ‘emotionally ready’ are working on their careers to pay for such an eventuality, the very definition of ‘emotionally ready,’ IMHO. Of course, when women use their 20′s to work on their career, they are ‘empowered.’ When guys do it they are ‘perpetual adolescents’ or ‘not emotionally available.’ Curious. I say this by way of contrast in an effort for other readers to see more sides….
“Women are told we have a smal window of time, and dating advisors like yourself keep telling us how guys like younger women, so you could be more constructive in how we should approach the next step.”
A small window???? Not to be snippy, but a decade+ or – isn’t exactly a small window. Suddenly, a guy meeting this 30-something has to determine he wants to have kids with this person within 90 days or less (closer to 30 days, in all reality)? Sorry, it looks like the 30-something is like the student who didn’t study, and is cramming for the test, panicking they’ll be able to know enough in time to pass…. Hell, she’s had a decade, for godness’ sake. Why does he get a month and a half?
“I don’t think it’s wrong to have expectations for life goals and discuss them. As long as it’s communiated properly. After a while, if a guy doesn’t seem to know what he wants then there’s your answer.”
There’s the rub…what is awhile? 30 days? 90? 180? Communicated properly? I have to tell you, I have been on 1st dates with women in their 30′s where the entire goals and expectations (particularly vis-a vis kids) are laid bare. Let that absorb a minute…1st dates. Talk about not wasting time…. and crass.
Selena 109
Perhaps some young women don’t want partners for whom the sunset is fast approaching.
Diana 110
I just want to add that guys being interested in you who are significantly younger is creepy, too. Unless, of course, you are a cougar.
Karl R 111
downtowngal said:
“Many women would love to settle down in their 20′s, but many guys at that age aren’t emotionally ready [...] Maybe it’s the guys that need to heed some advice.”
You’ve really missed the point of every piece of advice Evan has ever written.
Let’s say you have your home arranged/decorated precisely the way you want it. One of your friends doesn’t like the feng shui of your home, so she gives you some “advice” on how to “improve” your home. What are the chances that you’re going to spend a lot of time, effort and money to change your home from something you’re happy with to something you’re less happy with?
The guys in their twenties feel exactly the same way. They’re happy with their lives (and not settling down yet). They’re not going to make changes that will make them less happy.
Bob stated it perfectly. The women in that situation have to decide which they want more … to start a family soon, or to start it with someone their own age.
Bob 112
Just because you find it “creepy”, doesn’t change the feelings of those involved.
Who are we to judge the happiness of a couple…if the age gap works for them, why is it our issue at all?
If you are uncomfortable with an age gap in dating, then don’t date older men. But don’t judge others as being unable to deal with it.
At 40+, I have met some young women (in their 20′s) who’ve been surprisingly bright and full characters. Unfortunately, I too prefer to not date someone that young. But it’s not my place to condemn others for whom it’s not an issue.
Bob 113
@Selena
Wow…talk about a glib response.
Complain all you want, but as Mark has pointed out many times, there are things we don’t get to choose about the world. It’s up to us as individuals to work with what is available out there.
So go ahead and deny yourself the opportunity to have the children you claim are so important, because you are unwilling to compromise on his age.
Again, when men won’t date women because they’re too old, they’re denigrated as being shallow.
I guess those children weren’t more important than your ego after all?
You can complain about “young” men being non-committal about kids/marriage all you want, but it doesn’t change the facts of the circumstance. These men are living their lives for their own benefit, not yours, as they should.
This is a simple case of supply…men in their 20′s who want kids and also have the ability/preparedness to marry and shoulder the responsibility will be far more scarce than men still developing on their own security.
I praise such young men who prudently bide their time until they’ve grown comfortable in their own skin, and built a stable career before they decide to have kids. It’s these men who will make better fathers who will have the patience and liberty to focus on their children. Unlike the men who marry and breed quickly…we see these characters on daytime TV all the time.
Diana 114
Bob, whoa. I didn’t realize I was condemning anyone. I wasn’t judging anyone for who they choose to date.
My point was that guys who are barely out of their 20s being interested in women in their 40s and 50s is creepy to “me.” I thought the me part would be a given. The use of the word “cougar” was meant to clarify and recognize those women who “are” interested in dating significantly younger men. It is no one’s business who dates who.
Bob 115
@Diana
Clarification understood, and appreciated. But I must point out that calling people “creepy”, is condemning.
American society tends to be rather critical (and hypocritical) about age differences in couples. And I tend to be a bit reactive to the appearance of this condemnation.
Do I think that generally speaking it’s preferable to have a minimal age difference? Yes. Is it a requirement? No. Just because it would be difficult for me to sustain such a relationship, doesn’t mean others aren’t perfectly capable of maintaining them.
To me making a stink of age difference just muddies the water…it’s something that a couple may find interesting in their circumstance, but not necessarily significant, especially if they don’t make it significant.
LK 116
“I praise such young men who prudently bide their time until they’ve grown comfortable in their own skin, and built a stable career before they decide to have kids. It’s these men who will make better fathers who will have the patience and liberty to focus on their children.”
Right. That’s what I have done too though, as a woman. Why is someone in my situation being criticized for taking the exact same approach? I feel ready now, at 32, to have a family. I don’t think that was the case when I was 25.
Vino criticizes women for expecting men to support their childrearing. But then he also says that women who take time to establish their careers and maintain some financial independence are selfish and unqualified to put family first when the time comes. I feel like he is framing it as a no-win situation for women. Are we supposed to leave ourselves financially vulnerable and not take responsibility for ourselves in that dimension? If so, then why is he so concerned with the financial ramifications of divorce? Either women should also have time to build a career, or else they should be entitled to alimony. Otherwise there is a considerable risk of poverty.
Personally, I’ve chosen the former so that I don’t have to date a guy for his money and make the relationship all about that. But I still want a partner and, ultimately, a family because I think that will be light years more fulfilling than a paycheck.
Diana 117
Bob, I think I need to clarify further. Referring to the significant age difference as creepy does not mean I am defining or labeling the individual as creepy. It’s about the feeling that I have when someone who is by far young enough to be my son showing an interest in me. While this may be flattering to some and an ego boost, it is creepy to me. I am sorry if others find this offensive because that was not my intent.
Jennifer 118
So Bob, I’ve never accused anyone of being shallow for their preferences. I don’t do that in general, so i’m pretty certain i’ve not done so on this thread. For what it’s worth, I think it’s odd when people refuse to date people their own age, but it makes perfect sense to me that people wouldn’t want to date people much older than them.
My point is there is more than one reason a woman would not start a family in her 20′s- being a ‘selfish party girl’ or ‘selfish career-focused woman’ (as was presented earlier in the discussion) don’t cover all of the bases by a long shot.
Why do you keep trying to fight with people when ain’t nobody trying to fight with you?
Selena 119
Wow Bob.
My glib comment was in response to your glib quote.
The rest of your entire post does not apply to me at all lol! You might want to read my rather long post about my own experience above.
Thing is Bob, just because older men may want younger women, it doesn’t always follow that younger women will want older men. Despite how better prepared they might be for child-rearing.
You may want to start watching less daytime TV as well.
Steve 120
I think Evan’s crew of blog commentator regulars should be nicknamed
The “We’ll argue about anything” gang.
vino 121
LK, you are leaving out certain critical aspects of what I am saying.
I am saying that a 30-something woman who may not really love you (See earlier noted thread), views you as a sperm donor to realize HER overriding baby goal, wallet and occasional babysitter that allows her to spend more time with HER child while being the unloved (and likely not respected husband – after all, you are stupid enough to marry & impregnate someone who doesn’t love you), is a bad choice for a wife.
To the extent that working women who want kids so badly only view the guy as a wallet, babysitter & sperm donor, I am criticizing them. It is disrespectful & shows them to be parasites. Those who want children so badly, go to a sperm bank. In effect, put your money where your mouth and desires really are. Don’t try to deceive someone into believing you love them and want to have kids with them. To that extent, I am criticizing women for expecting men to support (financially & emotionally) their childrearing.
“I feel like he is framing it as a no-win situation for women.”
- Hardly, the reality is that it is a win-win for women. Heads, you win; tails I lose is the reality.
“Are we supposed to leave ourselves financially vulnerable and not take responsibility for ourselves in that dimension? If so, then why is he so concerned with the financial ramifications of divorce? Either women should also have time to build a career, or else they should be entitled to alimony. Otherwise there is a considerable risk of poverty.”
- First, let’s put down the victim card to analyze this coldly. Let facts drive your analysis, not what you feel SHOULD be the way of things. BTW, this quote also sums up why I and increasing numbers of guys are not interested in marriage. It simply isn’t worth the cost.
- You SHOULD take responsibility for your own financial affairs. Every ADULT should. This takes time, usually the 20′s & into the 30′s.
- I love the above quote. It states in effect, ‘I want to be financially responsible. Until I don’t.’
- He’s concerned with the financial ramifications of divorce because those ramifications fall on him 96% of the time. In some states alimony is lifetime (Mass.). That’s a hell of a bill to pay for a 10 year marriage. What’s the avg. length now? 8 yrs?
- Entitled to alimony? You are kidding, right? 60% or more of college graduates are women. Women earn the same as men for the same work (Don’t argue. It’s true. Look it up). So after making the voluntary choice to leave the work force, you still want to be compensated. Another reason to vigilantly avoid marriage, particularly to someone so entitled.
- If I quit my CFO job making $250k/yr to go teach math to 3rd graders for $35k/yr, I have financial risks too. Who’s gonna compensate me for my choice to do something good for kids? Oh, that’s right – no one. But that’s precisely what you advocate. Just as long as you have no risk…
What I am saying is that sometimes you can’t have it all when you want it. Of course, you don’t want to hear that. Actually, judging by the things I and others previously wrote that you’ve ignored, you only hear what you want to hear. That kinda makes a previous point or 2 of mine regarding inability to see beyond one’s own wants… but you probably ignored that.
A-L 122
It seems as though we’ll read what the other gender writes, but then can’t acknowledge any of its validity and just keep hammering home our own points. Here is what I will acknowledge as mostly correct:
From the men:
1) Most men are financially hurt if they get divorced
2) Many women in their 30s (though not most) seem more concerned about having children than the person with whom they are marrying. (My own note: there are men who are also just like this, more concerned about having kids than with whom they’re having kids.)
3) Many women expect to be financially supported by their husbands, at least while the children are young. (My own note: many men expect the women to take on this role, regardless of whether or not the woman has stated a preference for this.)
4) Men should get more than a few months to decide if they want to make someone their lifelong partner.
5) If a woman is interested in marrying someone in her 20s and having kids, then her choices will mainly be guys who are 5+ years older than her who are more financially prepared or guys around her own age who have less financially.
From the women:
1) Most guys in their 20s aren’t interested in settling down (be it they don’t feel ready emotionally or financially).
2) Most people know if they want kids or not, and an approximate time frame for them (1-2 years, 5-10 years, whatever). Letting a date know early on in the process about your views on kids does not mean that you envision having kids with that person or that you’re getting serious immediately.
3) Despite all the medical advances, the chances of birth defects start heading up around 36 and skyrockets around 40 (mother’s age). So for a woman in her 30s who wants her own biological children there are very real repercussions for staying in a relationship for too long that doesn’t end up at the altar.
4) It’s as much in a guy’s interest to find a woman who has a successful career as it is for a woman. If a woman takes 5 years off to help raise the kids when they’re young, think of all the other years that she will be earning more money for the family. And if you end up divorced then the child support/alimony is likely to be significantly less than if you married a woman with a less stellar career.
5) Just because a woman spends her 20s developing her career and exploring the world and having fun does not make her a selfish being that will be an unfit parent. Just as a guy who focuses his 20s on the same things won’t be a bad father.
And yes, #4 was pretty much my creation, but I’m sure other women were thinking it.
vino 123
A-L
I don’t want to nitpick too much, as I like your post. but re: #4, I think you’re missing it a bit. If a woman takes 5 years off to help raise the kids when they’re young, she more often than not doesn’t return back to work, and certainly not at the same level if she does. I look at what happens more often than not. So the child support/alimony is likely to be pretty close as if she’d never worked.
“5) Just because a woman spends her 20s developing her career and exploring the world and having fun (higher sluttiness factor? -vino addition) does not make her a selfish being that will be an unfit parent.”
- I didn’t say it did. It just means she’s more likely to have those traits guys prefer not to have in the mothers of their kids, particularly when they are paying for it. So you have to screen for that.
A-L 124
Vino, within a certain segment of society there are probably a great number of women who never return to work once they have a child. That segment, however, is quite small. Since I know you’re a fan of facts and figures I did a quick search and here’s what I found. (Links and quotes to be posted directly after this since this blog sometimes never posts e-mails with too many links.)
-Women produce 35% of their family’s income. (And we’ve had the equal pay for equal work discussion on a different thread, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree here.)
-In families where both spouses work, 25% of the women earn more than the men.
-55% of mothers work while they have an infant child (51% within 4 months of the child’s birth)
-80% of mothers work whose children are no longer in elementary school.
So obviously the majority of women do go back to work once they have their kids. Would you rather have the doctor’s salary (even part-time) or the salary of the secretary who works for the doctor? And for what it’s worth, one of those would have needed to spend far more time on her education & career and wouldn’t have been having children at the pinnacle of her childbearing years.
A-L 125
These are the two sources I used to provide the statistics in my previous post:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2007-10-02-working-moms_N.htm
And the second article:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/006560.html
vino 126
“-Women produce 35% of their family’s income. (And we’ve had the equal pay for equal work discussion on a different thread, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree here.)”
Not worth discussing in depth, but I’d note the usatoday article mentioned women’s preference for part-time work post children. FYI, this is a component of the so-called wage gap – women’s choice. Can’t ignore this, as it is central to equal pay issue.
“-In families where both spouses work, 25% of the women earn more than the men.”
- Um yea, last I read it was 30%, but whatever. That 5% isn’t material. Men still pay 96% of the alimony in the country. Want some of that equality? (relevant as to inequitable distribution of income)
“-55% of mothers work while they have an infant child (51% within 4 months of the child’s birth)”
“-80% of mothers work whose children are no longer in elementary school.”
- I don’t debate these as gross numbers, but neither the 55% nor the 80% differentiate b/t single & married mums. Take out the singles & those #s drop. How much is the question.
Why are we discussing this?
A-L 127
I agree that this issue doesn’t merit a big, long debate but the reason why I brought this up was because in your post you wrote, “If a woman takes 5 years off to help raise the kids when they’re young, she more often than not doesn’t return back to work, and certainly not at the same level if she does. I look at what happens more often than not. So the child support/alimony is likely to be pretty close as if she’d never worked.”
It seemed that a good chunk of the whole alimony business was for women who never return to work, and you were saying that more often than not they don’t, and these statistics were indicating that it wasn’t the case. Though it’d be interesting to see what the statistics are for married people, I’m not going to spend more time researching this. That’s all.
vino 128
You may be right in part re: greater #s work than I thought.
The alimony racket is just that. A racket. And it’s still awarded to women who do return to work (part time or full time who earn far less than hubby, which is the norm) just as it’s an incentive for women to not return to work (more time off = unemployable = longer, higher alimony), particularly if they married someone who earns a good living ($150k & up).
Maybe it’s that I know too many divorce lawyers…
LK 129
“Entitled to alimony? You are kidding, right? 60% or more of college graduates are women. Women earn the same as men for the same work (Don’t argue. It’s true. Look it up). So after making the voluntary choice to leave the work force, you still want to be compensated. Another reason to vigilantly avoid marriage, particularly to someone so entitled.”
I think you misunderstood my point. I read your comments in aggregate as saying that women who focus on their careers during their 20s are selfish and therefore make a poor choice as a spouse/mother.
My point is that in order for a woman to build a sufficient career to be financially responsible, she probably needs to focus on that for some period of her 20s, just the way a man does.
I guess I just don’t understand how both of those statements are true. If a woman is “unselfish” and focuses on being family-centric in her 20s, then she is shortchanging her long term earning potential. So, then she is more likely to be financially dependent on her husband in the case of divorce or otherwise. That is the scenario in which I was implying that alimony makes sense.
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote.
You definitely misunderstood what I wrote, but I’m a math person and not a writer. So, maybe I was unclear.
Do you think that only women want to have kids? I guess your perspective makes sense in that context, but I just assume that a man wouldn’t enter into a relationship with the expectation of having children unless he was on board with the concept and level of responsibility required. Maybe that is the difference.
Michael 130
Maybe SK should meet men who are desperate to get married.
downtowngal 131
Karl, I’m not sure how I’m missing Evan’s point. And it’s not just guys in their 20′s who are undecisive.
My point about guys in their 40′s who court younger women was based in personal experience. When I was younger I felt as if these guys were only interested in me for shallow reasons, as many hadn’t had relationships lasting more than a year or really knew what marriage was, and I had just gotten out of a 4 year relationship where we ended up engaged. And other than my child-baring abilities or religion I had little in common with these guys. So, yeah, I thought they were creepy. Not to say that all guys in this demo were like this, but now that I’m older I see the same types of guys who will only date women in their 20′s and aren’t serious about settling down.
And Bob, you make a good point about communicating. I’ve heard guys say how women mention these things on a first date and it can be a turn-off. But I also think that there’s nothing wrong with communicating what you want. There’s no set time frame, you have to go w your gut.
I’m also wary of guys who complain incessantly how women always want a commitment after 4 dates, when usually these women feel as if they’re being strung along and just want to know what this guy is thinking.
And, lastly, about women & older guys, women outlive men and tend to take better care of their health. I’ve seen my aunt spend the last 20 years taking care of her husband who was 25 years older than she and had developed health problems. She was essentially his nursemaid, so instead of enjoying retirement together she was cleaning his bedpans in the middle of the night, couldn’t travel, had to wrestle with the HMO red tape, etc.
Hot Alpha Female 132
Well you are spot on here Evan. I completely agree 100%.
I guess I can’t talk from the perspective of experience because I’m not 30 yet, but I know that pressuring a guy to more commitment never actually helps with the relationship!
Girls can’t stand it when a man put too much pressure on them and men feel the same way if not more.
I think its difficult to say that there is a cut off point. Like after 6 months you can start drilling the guy on whether or not you are going to get married and have 3.2 kids.
Its a bit of a catch 22.
Hot Alpha Female
The Only Woman You Should Take Dating Advice From
.-= Hot Alpha Female´s last blog ..The "Hes Just Not That Into" Rules. Do They Really Apply? =-.
Bob 133
@Selena
Perhaps it is you who should “read my…post”. I was responding to DownTownGal (as indicated by the nested commenting system).
I acknowledged that “Looking to the east for a sunset” was trite. You calling it glib is 1. argumentative and 2. inaccurate (triteglib). It is a well-worn quote that has lost it’s impact due to over-use, NOT superficial/insincere as your glib comment was).
But the bottom line is it doesn’t matter that younger women may not want older men. What matters is the choice they’re faced with.
Let’s make some assumptions:
1. Assume that most men in their 20′s are not prepared to settle down and raise a family right away (for whatever reason).
2. Assume more (greater percentage) “older” men are prepared (again, for whatever reason).
3. Assume “younger” woman wants to have a family (get married, have kids).
4. Assume “younger” woman doesn’t want to date/marry “older” men
IF all these are true, some or many women win this circumstance are going to be faced with making a choice between having husband/family with older man, or not having husband/family now.
None of these are absolutes…all groups exist on a sliding scale. I would venture that many-to-most men in their 20′s not even considering marriage/family (yet), while the inverse would be true of them in their 30′s.
So again I say, complain all you want about these men not being ready, but it doesn’t change the facts of the situation.
If faced with the choice of older man or no kids, a woman will have to decide which is more important to her.
Michael 134
It is also true that most women in their 20′s are not settling down and having babies.
Karl R 135
downtowngal said:
“I’m not sure how I’m missing Evan’s point.”
You were suggesting that men in their 20s (who aren’t interested in settling down) should listen to some advice, follow that advice, and become good husbands for the women in their 20s who are interested in settling down.
One of my favorite sayings is appropriate here:
“I can’t change other people. I can only change myself.”
That’s the reason Evan always directs his advice toward the person who is writing to him, not toward the person they’re having a problem with.
If a man in his 20s isn’t interested in being a father yet, you can either wait, or you can find someone else who is. The same is true of men in their 30s or 40s. What does change is the size of the pool of men interested in fatherhood. It increases as the men move from their 20s to their 40s.
Let me turn the situation around. I’m in my late 30s. I’m not interested in having kids, nor am I interested in raising someone else’s kids. I looked at the women on Match.com to see how many women did not have kids at home, and would be willing to not have kids (I included 1/3 of the “not sure” women in this count).
Within 3 years of my age: 15% of the women
4 – 8 years younger: 7% of the women
4 – 8 years older: 45% of the women
(and this is before filtering for other criteria which eliminated about 2/3 of the women across the board)
I could complain about how most of the women my age are dead-set on having kids, and the younger ones are even worse. OR I can use this information as a map to indicate where I’m more likely to find what I’m looking for.
“about women & older guys, women outlive men and tend to take better care of their health.”
I was in a relationship with a woman in her late twenties who had two life-long health issues (one genetic, one since she was neonatal). Despite the age difference, I fully expect to outlive her and be more active than she can be. I had to think about how important those details were to me.
“I’ve seen my aunt spend the last 20 years taking care of her husband who was 25 years older and had developed health problems.”
That is something to consider before you marry someone. What issues are likely to arise during the marriage, and are you prepared to deal with them?
Earlier this year I was dating someone who was 9 years older than me. Given how we feel about working, it’s entirely conceivable that she will retire 15-20 years before I do. That’s something I need to consider when I’m dating someone older than me (and discuss if the relationship becomes serious).
Every relationship contains trade-offs. Some of them can be age-related. The best you can do is recognize the downside and make a rational decision whether you’re willing to deal with it when it arises.
Honey 136
This is why I think the argument that younger women (in their 20s) who want families should date older men (in their 30s and 40s) who want families is so problematic.
Statistically, women outlive men. So even if you’re with someone your age, the man will probably die first. Why would you have kids with someone who is 10 years older than you who will probably die 5 years (or whatever the number is) before you? So you have to take care of his health problems and then he dies anyway and you have to finish raising the kids?
This is purely hypothetical for me, as the BF and I aren’t having kids, plus he and I are the same age, and his family is extremely long-lived (men and women) while all of my grandparents were dead by the time I was in middle school, and my mom died (of a genetic illness I may have, too) after my first year of college.
I just don’t think it makes any sense.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Is Your Love Style Blowing Your First Dates? =-.
Joe 137
I’m curious: how much of the “women live longer” statistics are skewed by the risky behavior of younger men? Things like the whole “younger men are riskier drivers” that the insurance companies use to jusify higher premiums. Things like having riskier professions (oil rig worker, cop, soldier, etc.) I mean, if men are dying at younger ages, they aren’t gonna be around to boost the old-man statistics.
Do the “women live longer” statistics take this into consideration? Is a reasonably risk-free guy still likely to die before a reasonably risk-free woman?
vino 138
Let’s back up. I think there is a lack of ‘seeing the other side’ going on here.
Since you are a math person, let’s look at it this way. Woman, now 33, spent the last 10 years working building a career and now makes on, $100k/yr. Now she wants a family. Likeliest scenario is that she’ll seek to marry someone who makes approx 2x (more is better) what she makes. After all, on 1 income, if wife’s to stay home, she’ll not want her lifestyle to drop now that she’s no longer bringing in $100k.
Notice during the time she stays home her bills are paid, roof is there, etc. In short, she has no economic risk at this time. That burden is on husband. She is subsidized. I’ll grant this is financially responsible in that someone else is paying the bills and she isn’t. I’m looking at it from they payor perspective.
A few years down the road, the likelihood (over 70%) is that she’ll want to leave. Now here you advocate alimony, a further subsidy, because she gave up a career to have the kid(s). Again, he pays. Where is the risk to her? There ain’t.
Look at the result. He pays during (more reasonable) and after marriage (wholly unreasonable). She’s really in no worse position. She bears no risk, while he bears all risk. This is asinine for a woman with an education and a career SHE walked away from. The financial burdens of her desire to have kids and leave career are magically transferred to him.
You may think this financially responsible. I happen to think it selfish and unjust, expecting someone else to subsidize your choices without risk to you and all risk to them.
If a guy wants to have kids, he can. Just don’t marry for it.
- First, we are talking about the OP and similarly situated ones, in their 30′s and looking to settle down & have kids NOW. Not focus on career for some period of the 20′s, as the continuum’s now slid to according to your post.
- Second, here’s what I don’t get- being ‘financially responsible’ until it’s time to have a kid & stay home, having someone else pay all the bills during that time. How is that responsible? I know it’s no extra out-of-pocket to her to stay home, but why ‘build a career’ only to leave it? Does not compute.
- Please don’t miss the Gottleib article’s impact – settling for a guy who’s a sperm donor, diaper changer and wallet that enables HER to spend more time with HER child. This short shrift to him is what I detest. A few years of marriage, not working, then divorce and *poof* she gets the substitute, alimony, w/o having to have him around. Kinda makes him disposable, except for $. Odious.
“I just assume that a man wouldn’t enter into a relationship with the expectation of having children unless he was on board with the concept and level of responsibility required.”
- Problem is he bears far more risk & more responsibility – at her whim, while she bears little.
Selena 139
Gee Bob.
If your comments are directed to downdowngirl, why are you starting these tirades @ Selena?
*I* am not and have not complained about men in their 20′s unwillingness to settle down. It’s irrelevant to me. My 25 yr. old son settled down last year a had a baby 2 mos. ago. Two weeks ago, I went to the wedding of my 22 yr. old neice and her 27 yr. old groom. I know many, MANY people who settled down in their 20′s without a gun to their head.
You Bob, just seem bound and determined to argue with many of the women on this blog for some reason.
Honey 140
vino,
I don’t know anyone in their thirties, guy or girl, who makes $100K. Most people I know make less than half that (I’m 30).
It’s my understanding that most married guys who want a family either agree wholeheartedly with the woman’s desire to stay home, and will actively pressure women to give up their career and do this, even if they don’t want to.
Third, quitting your job and trusting that the other person will support you is the riskiest undertaking I can possibly imagine. Well, maybe not as risky as needle-sharing. But still.
Also, FWIW, most people that I know who are my age and have kids live practically at the poverty line, whether 1 spouse works or both. I don’t know any woman “living it large” on her husband’s dime. In fact, both of the friends who immediately come to mind have significant others with freelance work, and it is the wife who has a steady job that provides insurance, etc. for all parties. One couple makes about $90k/year (she makes more) and the other about $50k/hear (she makes more).
Obviously I am not claiming that anyone’s particular circumstances is reflective of statistics. But for someone so invested in numbers, you’ve got a whole lot of selective interpretation going on.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Drinking, Cheating, and Other Concerns =-.
Karl R 141
Honey said:
“whatever the number is”
According to a 2008 article in Time, average life expectancy for men was just over 75, for women just over 80.
“So you have to take care of his health problems and then he dies anyway and you have to finish raising the kids?”
If you’re starting your family when you’re 50 and he’s 60, this is a very valid concern. If you’re starting when you’re 33 and he’s 43, not so much.
Joe asked:
“how much of the ‘women live longer’ statisticsare skewed by the risky behavior of young men?”
The Time article said the difference was probably 70% environmental and 30% genetic. Environmental factors cited were:
- higher percentage of smokers
- worse dietary habits
- internalization of stress
- risky behavior by young men
- higher suicide rates among the depressed
“Is a reasonably risk-free guy still likely to die before a reasonably risk-free woman?”
My ballpark guess would be 1 – 2 years earlier.
LK 142
Who said anything about taking off any more time beyond maternity leave?????
vino 143
@ LK:
If only maternity leave is contemplated, why bother with marriage or that 2nd income? I don’t get it.
@Honey
While you may not know people making $100k & up, where I live, I see plenty of them. This is the frame of reference I use.
A-L 144
Vino asked, “If only maternity leave is contemplated, why bother with marriage or that 2nd income? I don’t get it.
1) So the kid has a father. A male role model who will play with them, listen to them, help raise them. Assuming the husband is a good guy and not some jerk, these are huge benefits to children (and moms).
2) Kids are expensive, so a second income is very useful. Daycare costs can eat up a good chunk of one person’s salary, plus all the diapers and other stuff. As the kids age there’s the piano lessons, swimming classes, etc to pay for. Then insurance/car, and college as they get older.
3) So you have a partner. Someone to talk with about your day, someone who knows your passions, fears, and dreams. Someone who works with you toward common goals. Someone to snuggle up with at night.
In terms of the percentage of stay-at-home moms, I think there are geographical tendencies. (Also indicated, I believe, in one of those links I posted below.) My sister was living in Maryland and most all the mothers in her neighborhood/workplace returned to work after maternity leave. She moved to California and it was the exact opposite. Her income/quality of neighborhood weren’t that different from one another either, but the cultures were vastly different.
Honey 145
Well, vino, according to the US Census Bureau, only 15.73% of HOUSEHOLDS earn more than $100K per year. Additionally, most households in that bracket have two wage-earners in the home. Finally, though I couldn’t find the statistic for what proportion of those households had the man as the primary wage-earner, it certainly isn’t all of them.
So it would seem that your use of numbers is selective – when someone disagrees you throw numbers out the wazoo and when it supports your point you’re content with “see[ing] plenty of them.”
The example you use above would seem to apply to a 10% minority of the population at best.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Pick Your Path And Take It To The Max =-.
vino 146
@ Honey,
It may be that nearly 16% of all households earn $100k or more. Since I and nearly everyone I know fall in that category, that is where I focus. Also, what I say still applies on the lower end of the spectrum also, just that the numerical disparities aren’t as extreme.
@A-L
I approach starting a family from a different paradigm to most, I suppose. See, to me, a family is built upon the foundation of the man/woman relationship. So, the approach I as a guy would want to hear is something like “I want to have a rocking, solid, deeply loving & fulfilling relationship with my guy first. For if that doesn’t exist, the chances of our success long term are compromised. Then have kids…”
In other words, if the foundation ain’t solid (or in existence), you shouldn’t build the house on it.
When I read many of these posts here and in other threads (not necessarily yours), the OP’s letter, friends’ experiences, and in my own dating experiences, I simply do not see such an approach in nearly every instance – quite the opposite. Usually the answers are like Gottleib’s approach (Man = wallet, babysitter), some version of “I just want a kid(s),” with a rare passing reference to someone to help share life’s struggles.
In other words, there seems to be very few who share the philosophy of ‘build the foundation first.’
One may say that it is assumed, but the answers usually refute that assertion.
While I do have some sympathy for the biological imperatives, I think as a guy it is folly to marry someone who doesn’t share that same philosophy (or has any, for that matter), for the odds of failure increase, and you as a guy are simply reduced to being a wallet and occasional babysitter. Whenever I hear women talk about someone to share parenting duties and finances without referencing the bond 1st between man & wife, I think that is how they view men, relationships & marriage – as a means to their end. Unfortunately, I seem to see this almost exclusively.
And you may be right re: geographical tendencies – I’m in a stay-at-home area. Hell, it seems as though there’s a lot of stay-at-home even w/o kids…
Honey 147
Well, we agree on one thing, vino – the bond between the man and woman (or w/w or m/m, if you are on that side of the pendulum) should come first.
The BF and I are not going to have children, which is why our bond is probably the single most important thing in our entire lives.
And I also agree that everyone on this board cherry-picks life experiences and statistics to fit conclusions they’ve already drawn (not the other way around). You included.
So we’re on the same page after all
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Random Thoughts On A Pickup Convention =-.
vino 148
“And I also agree that everyone on this board cherry-picks life experiences and statistics to fit conclusions they’ve already drawn (not the other way around).”
- Orwellian doublespeak has nothing on you Honey…
“So we’re on the same page after all ”
- Probably not, but if you are happy, I’m happy for ya. Just don’t mis-paraphrase. It takes away from the often good things you say.
A-L 149
First off, THANK YOU EVAN! I’m thrilled to have the old posting system back. (I actually shrieked with joy. Sad, I know.)
In regards to Vino’s #146, I suspect that Vino’s approach isn’t all that different from how most people start off looking for a relationship. You want that person where you have an incredible bond and you get the butterflies and it’s your dream come true, you get married, have your 2.4 kids and live happily ever after.
I suspect that where some people veer away from that path is when they get too discouraged/cynical from the dating process, thinking that the dream-come-true relationship is never going to happen, and so they figure it doesn’t make much difference how much effort they put into the dating process and therefore just focus on the more superficial qualities (wealth/appearance) and just order up a spouse.
I guess the dating challenge is to find the person who is no longer looking for the fairy tale (i.e., has realistic expectations) but still believes in the importance of an emotional connection/bond.
Bob 150
RE: #149 (A-L)
Like you, I want to thank Evan for reversing the commenting system. It’s so much better this way!
But I’d also like to note that you really got my attention when you said:
“I guess the dating challenge is to find the person who is no longer looking for the fairy tale (i.e., has realistic expectations) but still believes in the importance of an emotional connection/bond.”
Wow.
Let me say that again: Wow.
Long ago (in my late 20′s), I started to say: “The ideal woman for me would be 30+, divorced, with no kids. Because she would have gone through the fairytale marriage, and now has realistic expectations.”
Please, don’t take that offensively…keep in mind it’s the perspective of a young man trying to make sense of his dating experience, and both men and women at those ages are far less likely to have well-defined expectations. However, as a man looking for a woman, it’s on the women I would naturally have focused my attention (the only man’s perspective with which I would be concerned would be my own.)
At the time I was observing young (in their 20′s) friends, family and coworkers rushing into their first marriages, and I noted something bothersome. Many seemed to be naive about what they were doing, and definitely lacked clear expectations. They all seemed to have that fairytale expectation- “finally, I have someone and NOW my life will be perfect”. And then came the struggles, frustrations and divorces.
It was then I noted divorced women in their 30′s (“older” women to me, at the time), seemed more settled, more comfortable with themselves, and more conscious of what was truly important to them. It was as if it took that fairytale marriage for these young women to learn to develop clear expectations.
Now, to totally throw this on it’s head: It’s my contention that if one’s focus is to discover someone of great compatibility of spirit, rather than someone to fulfill the “fairytale marriage”, then one is more likely to end up with that very “fairytale marriage”.
Bob 151
Aww, hell, please ignore the “throw this on its head” in my previous post…as I re-read my post, it’s a meaningless clause. Guess what was in my head was different than what went out “on paper”.
Helen 152
The way vino has been arguing on this post is an immense turn-off to women in several ways. At first I had agreed with him, but then it just began to get ridiculous.
He’s arguing as though he’s expecting his marriage (if it occurs) to end in divorce. That’s no way to approach a relationship: you have to approach it with hopefulness, an open heart, and love. His kind of cynicism is repelling.
Even worse, he keeps talking about money, money, money, and comes off as an enormous cheapskate. Also very unappealing.
Finally, he makes the assumptions that men don’t want to have kids, that only women want to have kids, and that women actually want to take time off from work to raise kids. What a narrow-minded way of looking at the world.
Ugh.
Bob 153
wow.
And there is the heart of the matter-the disapprobation of a woman is more important than what a man has to say.
You being “turned off” is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If you have something relevant to Vino’s statements…if you can refute his points…do so. But PLEASE, get off your high horse Helen… men are sick and tired of womens’ condescension and condemnation.
Honey 154
I don’t think that Helen meant a sexual turn-off, Bob. I think she just means that it’s sad when someone’s valid concerns are expressed in a way that will assuredly lead to unhappiness for not only the person expressing them, but everyone that person comes into contact with.
I think that’s as relevant as it gets.
Evan Marc Katz 155
Gonna step in here and remind you that no one posts here to be attacked. I’ve already talked to Vino privately and I will say the same to any women who attack him: there is no room for insults on this blog. Should you repeatedly condemn another poster (as opposed to refuting an argument), you will be banned from posting.
Life is too short for hating, so if you don’t like something, try staying above it.
Thanks,
The Management.
Helen 156
Honey, thanks for backing me up. I do apologize for hurting anyone’s feelings; that turned into more of a personal attack than I had intended.
Let me try to state my viewpoint more clearly:
We need children in order to propagate a society. Disproportionately, the burden of childrearing has fallen on women, even women who would frankly rather be in the workforce than have to take any time off at all (myself included). Parenting is a HARD, HARD job. It is not by any means a “free ride,” and anyone who thinks it is obviously has never raised a child! In fact, it’s the most undercompensated job: harder than just about any job in the world, and yet unpaid.
And then for these criticisms to be levelled: that women have a “free ride” by taking time off to care for children; by discussions of how little she’s worth monetarily compared to her husband; by how she “makes the choice” to take time off (hey, if I could just plop babies out instead of having to spend time in a hospital, I would); by how she’s milking a divorce for all she can get monetarily without considering that maybe she has a broken heart and isn’t divorcing for money’s sake: Surely anyone can see why these assertions would be deeply offensive to women.
Bob, you assumed far too much in your reply to me. I love men and do not condemn or condescend to them. And being turned off by those previous comments, as Honey pointed out, is completely relevant – because this is a dating blog. Surely it’s helpful to know what’s a turnoff (not in a sexual sense, but sure, that would be helpful too).
Women are human beings, not just baby producers trying to stiff men for every penny they can. By seeing women as less of a commodity and more of a complex human, with a desire to give rather than just a mercenary attitude, men have much more success.
A-L 157
Re: Bob’s #150
Thanks!
Joe 158
Helen sez:
He’s arguing as though he’s expecting his marriage (if it occurs) to end in divorce. That’s no way to approach a relationship: you have to approach it with hopefulness, an open heart, and love. His kind of cynicism is repelling.
You can call it cynical, you can say it isn’t hopeful, but you can’t say it’s na’ve. If you examine the issue dispassionately, the odds are basically even for any given marriage to end in divorce.
LK 159
Re: Vino’s question in #143… My reasons are pretty much identical to the three listed by A-L in #144, especially the part about fathers being important.
Honey 160
@ Joe, #158
Being realistic about the odds of marital “success” and protecting yourself financially doesn’t have anything to do with being cynical. It’s possible to do the former and not ever treat the other person as if they’re scheming against your best interest from the beginning.
I hope I never treat the BF as a statistic, no matter what happens (or doesn’t) in our relationship.
.-= Honey´s last blog ..Accomplish Something to Become More Attractive =-.
A-L 161
Just wanted to clarify that the list in my #144 post was not put in any particular order (just as my list from #122 wasn’t). Since I am someone who is unsure whether or not I will have kids (it will be dependent on the spouse) I hope it would be obvious that the third thing I have listed (emotional bond) would have to be in place before I married, and that this wasn’t just an after-thought of what was required in a marriage.
vino 162
Wow. A few days away & it seems little ole me apparently ticked some people off.
It’s not intended. Really.
I find it almost universal of people that we in general (me included), hate having our points of view, assumptions, prejudices, and expectations challenged, and fight it accordingly.
I know many don’t like the money discussions at times. I don’t either, btw. The reason it comes up so often is that it apparently is an underpinning of relationships whose main goal, it seems is to lead to marriage. Look at the threads – Finacee has $ and is Cheap, Who Pays for First Date, Settling (Gottleib-based thread), and others. So it is more than fair to say money is apparently a big part of relationships.
Has anyone ever looked at the picture start to finish from 1st date to marriage (and its bastard cousin, divorce), and truly see who does bear the financial burdens from first date to marriage/divorce? Do many care? Or whether that is even equitable given that women can (& do) do every thing guys can nowadays. This isn’t 1909 when things were far different. It’s 2009 and I think you have to look at what happens now in 2009. That may not always be comfortable.
I don’t want to have an ongoing debate over this on this thread. However, where I do see the “I want to have my cake and eat it too” approach to relationships and finances, I’ll likely comment.
And please don’t make the mistake of assuming that I mean ‘all’ women do X thing or that ‘all’ men don’t want kids or are duped or, well, you get it…
Joe 163
@ Honey in #160: I never said a person’s desire to protect themselves financially was cynical, I was simply responding to Helen’s characterization of vino as such.
vino 164
Re: Helen’s 156
Helen, with all due respect, you are not saying what I said. I ain’t gonna refute you point-by-point. However, that said, I’m gonna change but a few words of yours…
Men are human beings, not just wallets and sperm producers and occasional babysitters. By seeing men as less of a commodity and more of a complex human, with a desire to give rather than just a mercenary attitude, women have much more success.
See the other side? That’s what I’m trying (unsuccessfully, apparently) to convey.
Bob 165
@Honey #154
Helen’s being “turn[ed] off”, in any form, by Vino’s explanations and perspective, remains irrelevant. To paraphrase Evan (as he’s often repeated): we don’t have to like how it is, but we do have to accept how it is.
Helen’s post condemned Vino personally, rather than focusing on the points he makes (however unattractive/unappealing those points may be).
Had she phrased it differently, to indicate how turned off she was by the current climate re: men/women/marriage/divorce, rather than accuse Vino of being “ridiculous…narrow-minded…a cheapskate and…cynical”, then the post would have relevance.
Note also, that I made no inference to sexual turn-off, that was your projection: I merely quoted Helen’s phrasing (and to be clear, I assumed “turn-off” to mean in the general sense anyway).
honey 166
I get what you’re saying, Bob.
But I don’t think the current climate re: men/women/marriage/divorce is a cynical one, overall. I don’t know any people like that IRL.
I think there are more hopeful people than cynical ones. It’s just hard to be one of the former and keep encountering the latter.
.-= honey’s last blog ….Accomplish Something to Become More Attractive =-.
honey 167
I don’t read Helen as condemning anyone, either. An interesting way of looking at it.
.-= honey’s last blog ….Accomplish Something to Become More Attractive =-.
Michael 168
Men are human beings, not just wallets and sperm producers and occasional babysitters. By seeing men as less of a commodity and more of a complex human, with a desire to give rather than just a mercenary attitude, women have much more success.
This is true.
Of course, men have to show by word and deed that they are more than wallets and sperm donors.
vino 169
Michael’s #168
“Of course, men have to show by word and deed that they are more than wallets and sperm donors.”
Huh? Please expand on that unsubstantiated insinuation with some fact.
And btw Michael, in case you are unaware, women initiate over 70% of all divorces. Think about that. In more than 7 out of 10 marriages, women choose to relegate him to the wallet. Of course this is after she’s already had the child(ren) [ie - sperm donation]. So your insinuation that men in general have to show, is kinda refuted by the facts they, are, for the most part, not electing to break the family apart.
I don’t want to get into debates re: ‘he did something causing her to initiate divorce’ The simple fact is that if someone wants out of a marriage, they are out, and women choose to start it over 70% of the time. Again, not all women are bad or do this… *sigh* sad I have to keep reiterating that.
vino 170
Honey said:
“But I don’t think the current climate re: men/women/marriage/divorce is a cynical one, overall. . . I think there are more hopeful people than cynical ones. It’s just hard to be one of the former and keep encountering the latter.”
I want to agree, but I don’t see people in general as acting that way. For example, Census noted last year that unmarried people head the majority of households in the US for the 1st time. A different way to say it is people are voting with their feet on the issue.
And I agree on the difficulties of hope in the face of contradictory info…
Honey 171
I don’t think being unmarried is a marker of cynicism. It might be, for some, but I can’t imagine that it is for the majority. At least I hope not. I suppose it’s possible that it is, but that’s pretty impossible to know for certain.
.-= Honey’s last blog ….Accomplish Something to Become More Attractive =-.
vino 172
I’m not saying it is the marker for it, but when a majority voluntarily choose not to marry, that tells you something. The reasons may vary greatly, but the end choices are the same, it appears.
Michael 173
I’m not saying it is the marker for it, but when a majority voluntarily choose not to marry, that tells you something.
Probably on average.
I know that most of the women I went to college with (I am 31) are married, and that is reason enough for me to want to get married, to prove to them that I am just as good as they are.
vino 174
Re: Michael’s 173:
- I really hope you are joking…
- Oh, and I’d like to reiterate my request for some factual backup for your earlier insinuation:
Of course, men have to show by word and deed that they are more than wallets and sperm donors.
- Please. I’m all ears.
Michael 175
Men would have to show that they care about women and their feelings, and that they can offer friendship and support in addition to what they have in their wallet and balls.
Selena 176
Well Michael, #175 – CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!
Standing ovation. Take a bow.
amy 177
Well, I think the “she sees me just as a tool” take is a remarkably thin-skinned one. Hon, if you’re in your 30s and you’re in it for a family, lay the cards on the table within a couple of dates. Don’t waste time. If the guy is scared off, it means that he’s not interested in settling down and having kids. Guys who are after that are very straightforward about it, whatever age they are. If he’s interested, it doesn’t mean you have to run out and buy rings, but you have a chance of something there.
It could be that you’re looking in the wrong place. If you’re a religious person, I’d say head there. Go to church or shul. You’ll find a higher proportion of people looking to marry and have kids. Hospitals, too — docs are always looking for women to make families for them, though you may not see much of your husband.
I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to dance around intentions. Why waste other people’s time, energy, and money, and why waste your own? Look, I don’t want to get married, and I’m not interested in getting involved with an ex-wife via minor kids. Also, I have a kid who already has a daddy, and I’m hardly ever available for romantic jaunts. I’m looking for an adult male companion who has his own life and work, and is happy to carry on with them, but wants to be monogamous. So when a guy is interested, I lay it out. If he’s really after a wife or a woman to raise his kids, then good luck to him and God bless. But I’m not one to string a guy along hoping he’ll maybe love me so wonderfully much he’ll change his ideas about what he wants. If he’s that easily led, we’re in trouble to begin with.
Anyway, if you’re one of those “she just wants to use me!” guys, consider that guess what, maybe she’s just laying it on the line for you, asking what you’re after, and asking whether you want to be in the running. Because she’s trying to build a life with a family. Consider for a minute that it isn’t all about you.
Helen 178
Amy #177, I’m afraid I have to disagree slightly on this one.
If I were on the dating scene, whether I were a man or a woman, I’d be freaked out by someone mentioning marriage so quickly before we even got to know each other. It would make me think: “He cares more about getting married in general than about ME specifically.” (Just as the guy would think: “She cares more about marriage than about me specifically.”)
Either way, it does boil down to being viewed as a tool: someone is so desperate to get married that s/he can’t even get to know the other person first before mentioning marriage. Whether it’s because of kids, wanting a sense of stability, etc., it’s just unappealing to be seen as a means to an end rather than the end in itself. We all want to feel special in a romantic relationship. So Amy, when you say “Consider for a minute that it isn’t all about you,” well, there’s nothing wrong with a man (or a woman) wanting exactly that in a relationship. Why would I want to get married to a guy who only wanted any random woman in order to bear his children? I want the guy to think *I* am special. Likewise, a guy would feel the same way, and would be scared off by a woman who looks at him and thinks: “Sperm donor and daddy.”
Kenley 179
I don’t understand why telling a man pretty early on in the dating process that you have a desire to be married automatically means you are willing to marry anything with a pulse and a pair of balls. Why doesn’t it just mean that down the road, when you find the right man, you want to be married to him — not today, not tomorrow, but when the time is right. I don’t want to be married and I don’t want to live with a man either. I would let guys know that right away because if that was the type of relationship they were seeking long term, they’d be wasting time on me. I just don’t understand why putting your cards on the table is so taboo.
As for being special, I think the only person I need to be special to is me….cause if I don’t think I’m special, no matter how many other people say I am, and no matter how often they say I am, I won’t believe them. I’ve learned that lesson from personal experience! I think that’s just another example of wanting someone in a relationship to give you what you really need to give yourself.
IdoNOTwantKids 180
I respectfully disagree with not making it VERY clear that you do or do NOT want kids. There is NOTHING wrong with simply saying:
I do NOT want kids.
That doesn’t make you nasty. That doesn’t make you negative. That just makes it clear how you feel on the issue and saves both parties from wasting time. Importantly, it also saves the female CRUCIAL time via her biological clock ticking away. Seriously. I’m not making a joke.. I’ve met women that are 40+. They want kids. Hence, they should NOT waste their time with a guy who does NOT want kids. And just so you know, I do NOT want kids.. and I tell all the women I meet that upfront. It does NOT help. But it does help them — in saving time.
sun 181
Actually I think men should be considerate enough to discuss this issue with a potential partner, knowing how important it is for most women in her age bracket.
violet 182
1. Don’t assume that if you find the guy, you will be able to have kids (or not have kids). There are ladies in their early 20′s who can’t get pregnant, and women in their 40′s who have no problem having healthy babies. Just stay healthy. That’s the best you can do.
2. Concentrate on getting to know multiple guys. Concentrate on their habits, personalities, how they treat their friends and family, ethics, etc. and how well he meshes with you over all. This will help you get your mind off the biological clock.
3. Meet and date many many men at the same time. Tell them that you are concentrating on getting to know guys so you can find the one that is the right fit for you. This will filter out a lot of guys (many will drop off), but that’s probably a good thing. If exclusivity is brought up, make it clear that you do not want to be in an exclusive relationship unless he is seriously thinking about marriage. Why should you commit to a wastage of such a huge chunk of time when he wasn’t ready or willing to commit in the first place? That’s like putting down a nonrefundable deposit on a house that you don’t even know is on sale or not!
By dating many men at the same time, you don’t waste all your time on one guy. It helps you not obsess over one guy. It also give you a much better perspective on what’s really important in a guy (for you) and what’s a deal breaker. It helps you know and understand the guy’s character. The disadvantage (advantage?) is that you can’t jump into bed with multiple guys- well, at least, you shouldn’t. The advantage is that it’ll force you to wait till you know what the guy is all about.
I am older than you. About a year and a half ago, myself and three of my girlfriends went this route and it has been successful for all four of us. Another girlfriend has not dated enough men for this to work (as she finds flaws in every guy within the first 5 minutes and won’t even give them a chance). We are trying to explain to her the advantages of filtering out guys at the end not the beginning! And yet another has not made enough of an effort to expand her network so that she can meet lots of men.
Aimee 183
Hypothetically: Say you’re in a relationship that’s good. You love him, he loves you.
I know it’s been said before that men need to feel like they have something to offer to a woman before fully committing to her. Especially financially. Meaning that often times a man who is financially struggling will be reluctant to take the relationship to the next level solely because of the financial issues.
I can imagine that a lot more couples are in this predicament lately… so how do you know when to hang in there and when to cut your losses?
Wants Kids 184
I’m a man in what’s almost a mirror image relationship to SK.
I love my girlfriend of six months more than I’ve loved any other girl and she says she feels the equivalent way about me (she says so). The problem is that I love children and definitely want at least two and she is ambivalent at age 30.
She talks about her professional future, her parents’ future, and her residential future all the time, but she rarely says anything about children. The first time she said anything was six weeks into our relationship where she said she wanted to adopt, but told me even that desire was a new development. She says infants are ugly and that little kids are annoying.
Yet, she hasn’t brought up adoption in four months and now says she’ll “probably” want her own children, but just one and in her late 30s. (I don’t want to adopt) She feels I bring the issue up too often, I feel like we’ve barely talked about it.
We have good chemistry and many common interests, but our values seem so different. I don’t know how our relationship would work if I can’t wait to have children and she feels so differently. I would worry about fertility issues trying to have a child so late. This is my best relationship ever, yet when I look into the future I don’t know if I like what I see.
Jason Miller 185
This is a tough predicament we’re in. Modern society affords women all the means and even necessity to have careers of their own. Men and women feel no pressure to marry for financial reasons or just to have sex anymore. This is a different ball game in our post-ERA, dual income, high-divorce-rate world. We’ve put off marriage and children 10-20 years from our biological ideal. My mom had me when she was 23. How many married women are having kids now that young? No where near as many as 50 years ago.
So you hit your late 30′s and you realize your biological clock’s ticking. The biological drive to have children varies from woman to woman. Sometimes it has more to do with external factors rather than internal. Bottom line, every woman needs to decide if having kids is critical to being in a relationship. There are men who want kids too, even if they’re older. I see nothing wrong with being up front about it as long as you’re prepared to screen men based on their level of willingness to have kids. You must decide if you’re willing to navigate the gray areas too, not just the black and white.
And isn’t that the point? The fear is that you won’t find a great guy who wants the same things if life you do. Do you go through your dating process worrying that he’s not out there? Or do you have faith in yourself to know him when you see him? Not wanting kids is just another potential dealbreaker just like any other. If you’re a non-smoker would you want to marry a hardcore smoker? I say stand firm as to what’s not negotiable and keep putting yourself out there to try to attract it. Have faith and keep positive you’ll find him and you will. Project fear and frustration out there and you won’t!
C. 186
I keep re-reading this post and responses and I’m still confused on how to deal with this issue. I’ve already fallen for 3 different guys who don’t want kids, while I certainly do. At the moment, I’ve been dating a guy for a month. I’m very much “in like’ with him, and there is definite potential for love. But I have no idea if he wants kids. Do I do as Evan says and bite my tongue until we are already deeply in love and in a serious relationship to ask if he wants them? and what if he doesn’t? Do I leave him? Or do I make that sacrifice and not have kids in order to have him? I hate having to make that choice.
Sara Malamud 187
Well, you don’t wait. You should know immediately if he is looking for a serious relationship and marriage. If he says not, believe him. I always advice to play straight forward from day one. Some women think its cool to say they are not interested in marriage, well, the only one who fools is yourself. Sara Malamud
Bob 188
@C (#186)
As Evan has pointed out elsewhere, often men don’t know what they want till they know. Forcing an early decision can work against you.
Why is this relevant? Let’s say you’re dating this guy, Dan. You don’t know it, but Dan’s always answered “no” to the question of having kids. But perhaps the reality is he’s just not sure.
Now if you ask early in the relationship whether Dan if wants kids, his answer is likely to be “No”, and that answer is now “out there”.
Perhaps if you waited to ask till later, when you know each other a little better, he may respond “maybe”, because that’s his real thought, and he’s finally able to acknowledge it.
My point is, pushing for answers too soon won’t always get you *good* answers.
Best approach I can recommend is to not look for what he wants, but to express *your* desires at some point. If you state (with no pressure or expectation) that you’d like to have kids, he can respond as he sees fit. If he REALLY doesn’t want kids, I can practically guarantee he’ll say so.
Regardless, it puts your cards on the table in a good way. If he’s a good guy who wants kids, I’m guessin’ he’d say so, because there’s no conflict for him. If he doesn’t want kids he’ll probably avoid the issue.
Lynn 189
I would wait for the guy to bring it up. Generally, men who are interested in marriage and kids are in a hurry to have both, and will work it into the conversation over dinner on the first or second date. If he asks you what your long term relationship goals are, if you ever thought about getting married or having kids, just say “yes but only with a man I am truly in love with.” That way, he knows you want marriage, but you want love *more* – that you’re not just looking for a sperm donor to split the bills.
Rain 190
Bella,
Wow, bull-eye right into the heart of many women in or past 30ties.
Bravo!!
Kurt S. 191
SK’s letter makes her seem extremely self-absorbed. I know women like her who wasted their 20s dating the type of guys who weren’t going to marry them and then they wake up in their mid-30s and expect to find a great guy, as though it is that easy. If SK is smart, she will go for guys 5-10 years older and she will treat them well.
Evan should have advised SK to invent a time machine and go back in time and warn her younger self not to waste her 20s, when she is at the height of her attractiveness, dating losers or the type of guys who would not be good husbands.
Kurt S. 192
Violet recommended dating multiple men. However, I really don’t understand the entire strategy of dating multiple men at the same time. Don’t most guys get turned off when women do this? I certainly would not want to pay for dates with a woman who was dating multiple men. If women want to multi-date while playing the field, they should pay for their portion of their dates; otherwise, it seems like they are simply taking advantage of men, and no man wants to marry a women who he thinks is taking advantage of him.
Denise 193
Evan should have advised SK to invent a time machine and go back in time and warn her younger self not to waste her 20s, when she is at the height of her attractiveness, dating losers or the type of guys who would not be good husbands.
Haha, sounds like a sci-fi movie! Not sure how applicable or useful this advice is at the point in life she is now. After all, the past is not something we control, so fussing and agonizing over it is useless and called suffering.
Violet recommended dating multiple men. However, I really don’t understand the entire strategy of dating multiple men at the same time.
This is a good opportunity to educate men on women. When women date just one man, they frequently get all caught up in that one man. They often obsess about him. Women instinctively (which means it’s just part of women’s makeup) want to know answers to life’s mysteries (that’s why so many women love astrology!)–when a woman meets a man she likes, she often goes from a couple of dates to being married and having kids with this man! That also leads to smothering type of behavior because she really wants it to work to know if this man is ‘the one’.
Dating multiple men allows her to NOT obsess on one man, to learn about other men. To let those men SHOW her their interest in her, rather than her focusing on one man to her detriment.
“Dating” multiple men is not only physically dating men, but being open to men, flirting with men she may come in contact with. It makes her feel good and it makes her feel feminine, wanted.
Finally, what I describe above is common for all women for the most part. I’m pretty educated about this stuff and self aware, and I struggle with this concept. I often have to really hold myself back to be patient when I really like a man, force myself to get out there to date others and flirt with others. I can say it really does work.
Karl R 194
Kurt S. said: (#192)
“However, I really don’t understand the entire strategy of dating multiple men at the same time. Don’t most guys get turned off when women do this?”
In the early stages of dating, I date multiple women at once. When I decide that I’m interested in dating a woman exclusively, I let her know.
I’m not hypocritical enough to be turned off when a woman engages in the same behavior that I do.
Kurt S. said: (#192)
“If women want to multi-date while playing the field, they should pay for their portion of their dates; otherwise, it seems like they are simply taking advantage of men, and no man wants to marry a women who he thinks is taking advantage of him.”
If that’s a reasonable concern, limit yourself to dates that cost little to no money until you’re in an exclusive relationship.
At times, I dated multiple women whom I was not interested in marrying … and I paid for the dates. I didn’t care whether those women dated other men, and some of them were.
When I go to a show/gig/movie, I prefer to have company. The additional enjoyment I received by having attractive female company was worth the price of an additional ticket.
If the cost of the second ticket/meal/whatever exceeds the value of the lady’s company, then you’re spending too much on the date.
Furthermore, I really don’t see how you would be making decisions whether you’re interested in marrying a woman before you have even explicitly agreed to date exclusively.
jennyana 195
At Denise #193
I agree with you. Most women, when we like someone, start obsessing about him. That is why multidating is a good option. If I guy you like hasn’t asked you to be exclusive, why would you stop meeting and dating other guys?
C. 196
Kurt, your ‘advice’ isn’t very constructive. It may be beating a dead horse because this thread is so old, but I have to ask: why is it that men get a pass at wasting their 20s if they don’t settle down until they’re 35+? And just because people don’t marry before 30 doesn’t mean they were wasting their time with losers, jeesh! Sometimes things don’t work out with who you thought was ‘the one’. Gain a little perspective.
Kurt S. 197
why is it that men get a pass at wasting their 20s if they don’t settle down until they’re 35+?
I don’t think that men necessarily “get a pass” for waiting until they are 35 to get married. However, I do think that dating is a hell of a lot easier for attractive women who are in their 20s than it is for attractive men who are in their 20s. I know lots of guys who struggled dating in their 20s and had long stretches where they weren’t dating at all because they were establishing their careers and women just didn’t want them because they were too “nice” or “boring” or whatever. However, those guys got a little jaded and stopped letting women try to walk all over them. Now that they are in their mid-30s, they are a lot more attractive to women because they have established careers and don’t let women get away with bad behavior. I suppose that somehow their jaded attitudes make them more “confident” and therefore attractive to women for reasons I really don’t fully understand.
Attractive women, on the other hand, are only single when they are young if they choose to be single. If they choose to wait until they are in their mid-30s to get serious about finding a great guy, then many of them are bound to struggle unless they decide to go for older and/or generally less attractive men. Why should a man in his mid-30s who is still attractive and is successful settle for a woman in her mid-30s who is likely far less fertile and less attractive than her younger peers and who probably had tons of options when she was younger and misplayed her hand?
In the early stages of dating, I date multiple women at once. When I decide that I’m interested in dating a woman exclusively, I let her know.
I’m not hypocritical enough to be turned off when a woman engages in the same behavior that I do.
In your case, it would be hypocritical to be turned off if a woman was multi-dating because you are doing the same thing.
However, I know lots of guys who aren’t out there multi-dating and they are definitely turned off by women who are out there playing the field.
Nicole 198
I am getting in on this discussion late, having just discovered this blog. But there are a few points in these posts I would like to respond to.
On women’s biologocal clocks: Not all women want kids, but some of those women do want a life partner and marriage. Marriage is not just about parenting. There are women who know they can have a full life without kids BUT believe they could also be happy having kids IF they fell in love with someone who they believed would be a good father as well as good husband/life partner. Those women say “undecided” about kids on the online dating sites because there isn’t an”it depends” option to check. I know because I am one of those women who indicates “undecided”- not because I’m confused about the commitment it takes to have children and whether or not I want to make that commitment, like someone suggested in a post. On the contrary, I’m very clear on the gravity of the responsibility of kids and I dont want to have kids with someone who is not alligned with me on the subject, and I’m sure I’m not the only woman that feels this way. I am not looking for a potential daddy to a kid that may never be born; I’m looking for someone I would be happy sharing life with and if that person turns out to be good for parenting and WE decide WE want to do that together, then great. But I am thankful for the fact that I do not have the burning need to have children, and my desire for a relationship is not driven by my childbearing window.
Regarding age: I know many women in their late 30-early 50s who are sexier, more active and fit, interesting, drama free, etc than many women in their 20s and early 30s. I also know women in their 20s and early 30s who cannot have kids, and women who can have (and have had) kids into their late 40s. To assume that younger women are more furtile is ignorant. The fact is that nobody really knows if any particular woman can have children until she tries to have kids.
I totally agree that pressure is not the way to commitment. I dont want to be pressured and I want someone to commit to me because he wants to. The frustration I have is that guys (and gals, but I’m focused on guys) carry around their baggage from past bad relationships and fears from bad relationships they see around them, so even when they do meet a good woman who they really like, often they are still very hesitant to commit to her. What am I supposed to do with that?
Kurt S. 199
Nicole, obviously there are exceptions to the fertility “rule.” However, a woman’s age is a very important consideration for men who want to get married and father children. There are thousands of medical studies showing that women do generally lose fertility the older they get and men who want to start a family would be foolish to completely ignore this information.
Sigh 200
This article is so old, but I was compelled to post. Some of the posters here are just mean-spirited and judgmental. So, a woman who is single in her 30′s has misplayed her hand? That is quite possibly the most negative interpretation someone could take of the situation.
Not that I’m an example for all women, but I imagine a lot of women have good reasons too:
I worked my a&& off in my 20′s because I grew up basically without a mom and have never felt safe unless I can support myself. Getting to a state where you are financially viable and safe takes time and effort. I am also the oldest sibling who felt a responsibility to my younger ones. I didn’t ask for my circumstances, but I got them, and here I am. Warts and all.
As for dating – I loved every guy I dated in my 20′s and was devoted to him. NOBODY wants their relationships to fail, and if they knew in advance that they would, they would exit them. But nobody can predict the future. Women who are single haven’t “misplayed” intentionally – that’s absurd. Many of them have done their best with the hands they got dealt.
A lot of life is unpredictable, and the guy who makes calculations about marrying the 20 year old for her fertility might not be safe from getting a bad hand himself somewhere down the line. People who apply cold logic to judging the situations of others maybe haven’t been dealt enough hard knocks to have humility. That’s one thing I like about dating in my 30′s – for all the guys like Vino, there are 3 more who are open minded and less judgmental because of their life experiences.
Foxx 201
My man was posing the notion of marraige on the second date and it did not scare me off at all because it’s what I wanted and how soon the convo came up didnt matter because we just loved each other and knew what we both wanted. So to the poster, its ok to lay your cards out on the table, men do it too.
Joe 202
I say get off the pill, don’t sleep with anyone but meet as many possible guys at the same time, until you find the right one or can mold him into being the right one. If you’re rich, just pay for invitro from a donor like some other women. Good luck!
anita 203
Hi all,
Some really interesting posts here. I would like to add something to the mix. I am 29, was married for five years, divorced at 24. At the time , my husband and myself talked about having kids as we both wanted them, alas it did not work out and no kids. I have had people tell me that I am lucky i didn’t have kids etc. Sometimes I am not so sure. I am still young but at 29 I do feel worried, as I know I am heading into my 30′s and it becomes more difficult to find what you are looking for. On the other hand, I have a somewhat accepting attitude to life and believe that life will give us what we need when we need it and if kids are not on the agenda for our soul purpose then it won’t happen. I think it is more important to be with the right person, than having kids with the wrong person. I really feel for my fellow females who feel time is running out. It is not easy being single in the 30+ age bracket and watching your friends get married and have children. But I say this to myself as much as anyone else: have faith . If kids are meant for you , they will happen, if not, why not have a heck of great life, travelling, living and loving. There is so much out there to do an be. And many people who need help and nurturing beyond kids. ‘Sigh’ bravo! you hit the nail on the head- hard knocks breed humility and understanding- guys who liken women to Porsche- I am sorry however it was intentioned it comes across as heartless, perhaps more tact and thoughtfulness could have gone into it. And put yourself in 30+ women’s shoes.
Anne T 204
This tread is so old that by now SK has found her significant other …or maybe not. But after reading all these comments I felt the urge to post one, too regardless of its utility. Why this rush into getting married or having kids? It’s exactly like eating fruits before being ripe. Let’s say you like peaches but you get so anxious to eat them that you pick them when they are green. Most probably you will spit them out, without enjoying what they actually would have had to offer if only you had taken the time…Nature has its timing, men’s and women’s reactions to different stimulus also have their riping time. Embrace this fact and enjoy the QUEST rather than spreading the scent of anxiety all around ( i am sure you too had experienced the vibe of desperateness coming from some guys and hated it). SK, do you actually think you are ready for having kids or do you just fancy the concept of it?
SS 205
Are we seriously asking 35-year-old women if they’re “ready” to have kids nowadays???
Xable 206
Okay, I just had to comment because this is an issue dear to my heart. First and foremost, you need to realize that when I ask a guy if he is interested in marriage and children and I am not asking him if he is interested in marriage and children *with me*.
I simply want to know if that is something he wants and is interested in. I know many guys don’t want to get married (or married again). I also know many guys don’t want children (or anymore children). If either of those are the case, then I don’t need to spend 6, 3, or even 1 month with him to know he is *not* the right one for me.
If he is on the fence, I’m also pretty sure he is not the right one for me. Once you reach your 30′s, you should know whether this is something that appeals to you or not, regardless of if you are a male or female. I actually would like a man who is as interested and excited about marriage and starting a family as I am.
Or, maybe it is something that he would consider, but not right now. Maybe it is something that he sees happening way in the future. This is another case of probably not right for me because, factually, I can’t wait 10 years to start a family because by that time, I’ll be physically unable to.
As others have have pointed out, if marriage and children are something a guy wants, usually a woman mentioning such things is not going to spook him. If it does, that is a good sign that he is not ready and/or interested in such things.
I don’t think is has to come down to pressuring a guy or asking if he wants to marry me or have kids with me. It is simply about finding what his own personal relationship desires and goals are at the moment. Could they change in the future? Sure, but with so many guys out there, why in the world would I hedge my bets on a guy who is not on the same wave length as me right now – in the present?
I also find it rather illogical to be concerned that a woman who is interested in marriage and a family is only looking for a man to be a baby maker. If a woman doesn’t have any children of her own by her 30′s, it is a pretty safe bet that she is looking for the whole package: love, a great man, marriage, and then children. If she just wanted children, there are a million easier ways to get children than to date around to find a man to marry. And, if she is only looking for a man to marry for children, most likely she could have been married many times over prior to this point in her life. That simply fact that she hasn’t, should reassure you that she wants to do it *right*. So, men, chill out a little. =)
I think 3 months is more than enough time to determine if a guy is on the same wave length with you about marriage and children. 6 months is more than enough time to determine if he is interested in those things with you. And 1 year is more than enough time to start discussing it seriously. If he hasn’t place a ring on my finger and set a date by the 2 year mark, I’m walking because I simply, physically, don’t have enough time left to allow him to get his stuff together and make a decision. I also, personally, feel that if a man (or a women) isn’t certain about a person at the 2 year mark, then that person probably isn’t the right one for you.
chiefnavarro 207
i want kids and i will find it very hard to ever date a women over 25 for the simple fact that i want a nice long relationship with a solid foundation before doing something as life changing as having kids
Lorianne 208
Um, the point that the men on this site who talk about a so-called “double standard” and age are missing is that the women who complain that men refuse to date them because they are supposedly “too old” are talking about men who are (and this is important) THEIR OWN AGE. On the other hand as a woman in my early 30s I have ZERO interest in men in their late 30s, let alone their 40s or God forbid, their 50s. They are TOO OLD for me.
See the difference?
KalipsoRed 209
I feel a great deal of similarity with SK. I’m 30 and have wanted a serious relationship leading to family for a while now. I’ve dated, long-term, some very wonderful, loving men. Yet, either they tell me after 6 months that they don’t want kids or that they don’t want to be married. I’m tired of putting myself out there over and over and over again while putting the time and effort into becoming intimate with someone just to have to break up with the guy. Even after 6 months or a year of dating with these good men I had to drag the answer of their desires out of them. They didn’t want to break up with me and I didn’t want to break up with them, but we weren’t going in the same direction and there is no sense in staying with someone for years on end just having a good time if it doesn’t help me achieve my desires in life. If they would have given in to me they would have lost their free life style and I don’t wish to be with a man just to make my self happy. I want someone who wants to be my partner in life and help me achieve my goals.
This is a common theme in ‘good relationships’. Partners helping each other reach their goals…but for it to work out the two people generally have to have same goals on the high priority items in their lives. Thus, I don’t feel like asking a man earlier in the dating period if he truely desires children and family in his near future to be desparate. SK doesn’t want to “use” the man just to get pregnant. She desires a family life that involves children. Yep, she can go have kids on her own…an idea that I always have in the back of my mind as well, but she wants a man that wants to have children WITH her. That is her priority goal in life. It is a vaild point of common or uncommon interest in a potiental relationship. I would say that any man that can’t give you a strait answer about if he wants children and family life in the next 2-5 years is not worth wasting your time on. I think it is important that you specifiy when you breach this topic that you are not trying to corner him or have any expectation that this future life will be with you, you just want to know if he has thought about it and what his desires are on the subject.
Anonymous 210
In the book “Why men marry bitches”, the author says that the less you talk about commitment, the more you get.
I find this to be true, as a woman. My girlfriends will say that you should announce that you want a serious relationship, which I think produces the opposite of what you want. The simple fact is that men don’t like to be pushed into an agenda. When you say you’re looking for marriage or a serious relationship ASAP, the man will think you are just looking for someone to fill in the position. He wants you to like him for HIM and he wants to be a part of the decision.
The man who was the most crazy about me and wanted to marry me was the man that I didn’t mention anything to. I kept things relaxed and elusive. That way commitment and the future was his idea.
When I did announce that I wanted a serious relationship when dating a guy, guess what? The man would try to manipulate me into a booty call. You would think that the players and the users would be turned off at a woman wanting marriage, but they enjoy using that agenda to prey on a weakness. They will tell you what you want to hear to get what they want.
Michael 211
In my opinion, ask during the first date.
I take women out for cofee/drink(s) on the first date–cheap, and local. All I want to know is, Is this woman worth another date? I just want to know if there’s any potential for chemistry.
Usually, during this first date, a woman will ask me what I’m looking for. I’ll flat out tell them that I’m looking for the love of my life.
No sense in wasting each other’s time and (my) money.
Ask the important stuff as soon as possible.
SS 212
Loriane @208
On the other hand as a woman in my early 30s I have ZERO interest in men in their late 30s,
And you’re probably missing out on the men who are most likely to want to marry you and have kids then.
I was 31 when I met my husband. He was the super-ancient age of 37. We married about two years after meeting and now are trying to have kids… but I guess that mere six year age difference would be too much for some folks to handle. Shrug.
Ray 213
It’s not that complicated…
When interviewing for a job, lots of employers ask what your 5 year plan is and where you see your future with the company. This is no different. I find it ridiculous that men think that just because a woman is seeking marriage that she will just glom onto any man who happens to stroll by.
If he’s worried about producing a family prematurely, he can wear a condom. Every time. Simple.
I’m rather tired of the lame excuses given here for men’s immaturity and lack of responsibility. Playing along and giving a guy sex and your time for however long is the game alot of men play. Tell ‘em to stick it… to some other woman who is more stupid than you.
Men who are afraid of the ‘M’ word and women who have that as a relationship goals should be ditched ASAP. There ARE men who are commitment minded and are actively seeking similar. Don’t waste your time with the indecisive.
John 214
@Ray # 213
So, you see this as men interviewing for a job? Well, you just gave a perfect example of why men are turned off by such approaches-you clearly are more interested in filling the position than in finding a partner.
I searched for years to find a great woman, but I always knew that to find her required patience and acceptance (acceptance of where she was in her own life), because doing otherwise (setting an agenda) creates an an unnatural pressure that makes people on both sides skittish.
I met many women who stated very clearly up front they were looking for marriage…for all of those I walked away quickly. “Marriage” was more important to them than finding the right man, and I didn’t want to be just a checkbox on her score sheet.
I wasn’t “afraid” of the “M” word (as you so condescendingly put it), but rather understand that having the correct goal is crucial. When marriage is the primary target, picking the right partner is automatically secondary.