I’m Pregnant and My Husband Is No Longer Interested in Sex With Me.
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My husband and I haven’t had intercourse lately because I am pregnant and he’s afraid it will hurt the baby. He didn’t have a problem with it from the beginning to the 6th month. I continuously give him hints and touch him playfully everyday, but he still refuses to have sex. I like to sleep alone so I make him sleep on the couch and he understands that, but he likes to sneak back in later when I am asleep and cuddle up with me. Okay, I admit, not having sex for a while is getting to me cause I am still young and virile. So last night I went to bed naked thinking he would cuddle up again and perhaps have sex, but no, he didn’t. Anyway, I caught him masturbating to Girls Gone Wild and it hurt me. I don’t know if I should be angry or forget about it. I know it hurts my feelings though that he chose to masturbate to other girls instead of having the real thing with me… Right now, I just don’t know how to get over it. Because of his actions, I feel that i am not attractive to him anymore. Any advice? -Hannah
Oh, Hannah. You sound very young.
And because you’re very young, it seems that there a number of things that you need to be taught about men that older women have already figured out themselves.
So let’s start from the beginning.
1. Your husband is afraid that having sex will hurt the baby.
The fear is normal, if a bit overstated. The reaction to this fear is ridiculous. Have you heard of Google? I just Googled “does sex hurt the baby?”
Here’s what the Mayo Clinic had to say:
“Your developing baby is protected by the amniotic fluid in your uterus, as well as the strong muscles of the uterus itself. Sexual activity won’t affect your baby.”
Until you start communicating like an adult couple, your sexual problems are likely to continue.
Now that we’ve quickly dispelled that myth, your husband doesn’t have any excuse.
Of course, it’s not as simple as that. Because your husband’s lack of desire to have sex is not really about hurting the baby. In fact, it may start with:
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88 Comments »Filed Under Sex
Ana 1
And this is exactly why I’m never getting married and I’m scared of being in relationships… No offense, I love your posts Evan, but it hurts me to think of what men are capable of! Sure, maybe in this situation it’s (sort of) understandable, but really, why, if men have beautiful girlfriends and wives, do they masturbate to other women? I’m not saying they should think other women are ugly but why do they pay them SO much attention to them and hurt those who love them? I wish I could understand, but seriously knowing this only makes me more bitter towards men…
Evan Marc Katz 2
@Ana: “What men are capable of?” You make masturbation sound like murder. It’s normal, it’s natural, and it doesn’t stop after marriage. If you choose to be offended by this and choose to make it hurtful, then that’s your decision. But it’s not. Not remotely. This blog is a reality check about how normal guys act; and if masturbation and porn is NORMAL for happily married men, then why get bent out of shape about it? The masturbation isn’t the problem in this story. It’s the fact that he’s probably not attracted to his pregnant wife (also somewhat normal) and the fact that she thinks it’s totally fair to make him sleep on the couch. (really, really not normal!)
Jackie Holness 3
Wow, deep…that’s more real than reality tv…
Kathleen 4
Right on Evan! I cannot imagine telling my man let alone husband to sleep on the couch.
Fusee 5
To Ana @1:
Masturbation is not only a male need, but it’s often a female need as well. Sex with my fiance is of course more pleasurable and intense, but it also requires a certain level of energy and a lot of time-consuming work to perform properly. Although we favor sex with one another, we are not giving up our right to self-pleasuring just because we’re in a relationship with one another.
Self-pleasuring is a category of pleasure all by itself. It gives a quicker release of sexual energy build-up, and while it does not replace love-making, I see no reason to judge it negatively or worry about as long as it’s not out of control and part of a harmonious sex life with one’s partner. We all have the right to touch and pleasure one’s own body and we do not give it up because we are in a relationship. Furthermore it can actually be necessary when one or both partners have a higher sex drive than their life allows to accomodate.
Now I can understand how someone with little need for and/or experience in self-pleasuring could be uncomfortable with this topic. Please educate yourself on masturbation, especially on the female side of things. It might help you understand a very natural and normal activity, for both men and women.
Jenna 6
I find it interesting that single folks without kids kind of get a stigma and yet, as evidenced by this post and what I see around me, plenty of married women who are pregnant /have kids are in screwed up situations that I don’t envy. The questioner and her husband sound immature and weird. And why is someone that young married to an old man ( in relative terms )?
Cat5 7
@ Evan
I thought Ana @1 had a problem with masturbating to pornography, not masturbating itself.
Are you equating something that is “common” with something that is “normal?”
Just because something has become commonplace in society, does that automatically make it “normal” or “appropriate?”
If something is “normal” or “common” among people and does not stop after marriage, does that make it a healthy and appropriate behavior?
What about in a relationship? What if one partner has a problem with it, regardless of how a large segment of society feels about it because not liking pornography is not akin to murder either, and the other continues to do it? Doesn’t that make it hurtful to the relationship?
It’s not like we are talking about air, food, or water. Pornography is not a biological imperative for a person or the species to survive…is it? :-7
NOTE: Before I take any flack, these are just some of the types of questions that I ponder sometimes when trying to decide where I come down on an issue, and I wonder if others do also. (I have about a hundred more questions, but I decided to limit them to these ones for now.) They are not intended as a moral judgment on anyone.
Evan Marc Katz 8
@Cat5 – What exactly would a man be masturbating to, if not pornography? Thoughts of his beloved girlfriend, perhaps? Bwahahahahahaha! Pornography solely exists for men to masturbate. If he’s masturbating, it’s to pornography. I would think that the separation between men who masturbate and men who masturbate to porn is razor-thin, at best.
If you have a problem with porn, and you have a problem with men masturbating to porn, you will have a problem with over 90% of the population. That’s your right, but it severely decreases your dating options. This is no different than the woman who wants to save herself for marriage or the man who wants a virgin. You’re entitled to your morals; just don’t be too surprised when you pass up a lot of good people who don’t measure up to your lofty (and somewhat unreasonable, ridiculous, Pollyannaish) standards.
“Guys jerk off to porn” is not exactly earthshattering news.
Sarah 9
@Ana – First off, wake up.. women masturbate to pornography as well, I have since I was 11.. second, that does not mean there is anything wrong with me, it means that I have a normal healthy sex drive. And quite frankly I am insulted by your insinuation that there is something wrong with that. I am certainly not a bad girlfriend because when I’m horny and my boyfriend is working I choose to masturbate to images of people having sex. We’re visual creatures. It doesn’t mean someone cares less about you at all! In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with you. (The exception being if your partner won’t sleep with you and will only watch porn – that’s bad) After reading your post though I think maybe it would benefit you to try and understand other people’s perspectives more, maybe get a book or two on the subject or ask a few friends their ideas. I don’t think that seeking a professional opinion would be a bad idea. It sounds like you’re missing out on a lot because of a HUGE misconception.
JB 10
Evan is right. What we actually got a kick out of was that he was caught masturbating to “Girls Gone Wild” which ISN’T porn. It’s bad comedy for 11 yr.olds ……lol
Believe us when we say all men know where to find porn and we do find and watch it. for the 5% of women that don’t understand it or accept it. Too bad. Go read 50 Shades of words or some other fictional delusional “mommy porn”.
Girl in the Midwest 11
@Ana at #1:
When I was with my first serious boyfriend I found out that pretty much all guys masturbate to porn. I was pretty horrified, so I kind of understand you. I was depressed because:
1. I thought it meant that I wasn’t good enough for him — I wasn’t hot enough. Obviously I can’t compare with the girls who had perfect boobs and perfect body and every errant hair removed.
2. It was kind of a selfish act, in my opinion at the time. He was off getting pleasure from other women. It felt like a betrayal, in a way. His reply was, “you could watch porn too you know and just pleasure yourself.” My response was, “but I don’t have such a strong desire as you to masturbate to strangers, especially if we’re having sex pretty regularly. Even if the men or the sex depicted are hot they don’t do much for me as long as I have no emotional connection to them.”
But now, at the age of 28, I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend masturbated to porn as long as it didn’t disrupt our life (our sex life, his work, his relationships with his family and friends etc). If his porn habits were damaging our sex life, I would have a talk with him. But if he has an addiction then I would definitely want him to get help. I guess I’m saying I understand what Ana is saying but perhaps with some time you will feel better about this…
Sarah 12
@Cat5 #7 – I kind of see what you’re saying sort of.. Let’s say hypothetically, a girl doesn’t like porn, she thinks it degrades women, but she wants to have an open honest relationship with her man and doesn’t want him watching porn. This could work theoretically, but the cost will be a satisfying relationship. There ARE men with LOW sex drives, who DON’T watch porn because they rarely masturbate. Personally, if a guy I was dating said he didn’t watch porn I would leave him. For two reasons, either he is a liar or the sex is going to blow. But in a theoretical world where what you want most in a man is some preconceived notion of respect, then you may find a guy who doesn’t like porn, but there will be sacrifices and you may find yourself wishing he actually liked sex.
Amelia2.0 13
Yeah, if it were me with the sleeping alone preference, *I* would volunteer – no, insist – that I be the one to sleep on the couch. To me, that is taking responsibility for your preference, and not just making someone else pay for it. Granted, I can sleep just about anywhere as long as it’s dark and quiet. Well, maybe just dark– I’ve since adjusted to my boyfriend’s occasional snoring, because I found that despite that I tend to fall asleep faster and feel more rested in the morning with him next to me.
I do get a sense that Hannah here is really asking for more assurance from her husband, which I think is what the real issue here is, though I completely agree that making him to sleep on the couch flies in the face of that request. It also appears that her husband is asking for reassurance himself by crawling into bed with her. To me that’s kinda sad.
And with a baby on the way, I think Hannah and her husband need to iron out this issue before the baby is born rather than shelving it for after. More often than not, newborns add huge stress and make unresolved problems worse, not better. If Hannah doesn’t feel close to and loved enough by her husband, then the huge expectations and isolation that a lot of moms often feel after a new baby is only going to make that feeling worse. It’s also not clear if Hannah and her husband aren’t anticipating having to kiss their sleep goodbye for the first few months anyway– where the couch might start to look really, really comfy after all and damn whoever is supposed to be sleeping there. I admit, I say all this based on observation and reports from a few of my friends, who have had their first children within the last year or so. Nonetheless, I was able to determine that these profound effects on couples to be pretty much par for the course after looking it up on – wait for it – Google.
Although I wonder if since her husband is seeing her more in a maternal light, if that “mom” perception isn’t short-circuiting his sexual feelings towards her. How often this might happen with fathers-to-be I can only guess.
Karl S 14
Men are very visual creatures and we like to see images or footage of naked people and sex when we’re amorous. Women obviously don’t require the literal thing in front of them, but surely they let their imaginations run wild too and don’t just fantasize about their partner. That’s the only difference. Men like to see it.
Cat5 15
Evan @ 8 - was this statement “who don’t measure up to your lofty (and somewhat unreasonable, ridiculous, Pollyannaish) standards” directed at me personally, or the collective “you?” Because if it was directed at me, I submit that you have no idea what my standards are, as you obviously missed my point (and failed to read the note at the bottom of my post).
As an individual, and a society, I think it is important that we stop and ask ourselves, about many, many different types of behaviors, whether just because 90% of the people are doing it…does that make it okay? Is it right? Is it healthy? Am I a lemming falling off the cliff with everyone else? Can I think independently, ask important questions, and arrive at an answer that may or may not be popular? Can I stand up and ask the question about what is the right thing knowing I may be called ”somewhat unreasonable, ridiculous, Pollyannaish” even if no one has any idea where I stand on the subject at hand? Of course, the answer for me is yes…I can. I am hoping that is the answer for you also Evan.
For example, I’m still taking flack over how I voted in the 2012 Presidential election, even though no one knows how I voted — they have all assumed how I voted based on the questions I asked before the election or where I stand on certain issues. Surprisingly to them (not to me), they have all assumed wrong.
That is what I was doing with my post…asking questions…gathering information, and not just assuming that the Hannah or Ana is a prude or unreasonable for their feelings on the subject of masterbation and pornography.
And for the record, Evan – what is wrong with setting a high standard in one’s life? I suppose it’s a problem if applied only to others, but not if person applies it to themselves, as well as others. Why would you ridicule a person having a high standard? I would submit that you set high standards for yourself - both professionally and personally. Would you like it if someone ridiculed your standards as ”lofty (and somewhat unreasonable, ridiculous, Pollyannaish)” because the two of you disagreed on a subject?
Disclaimer: All comments made in this post, and any other post I have made, are purely for discussion purposes only. They do not reflect my feelings on any subject. They are questions for the purposes of gathering information. They are not intended as a judgment on any person, unless expressly stated.
Zann 16
It will never cease to amaze me that it’s 2013 and yet adults still have this weird moral dilemma when it comes to masturbation. I’m going to give Hannah the benefit of the doubt & assume she asks her husband to sleep on the couch because she’s uncomfortable finding a good sleeping position as she progresses in her pregnancy & maybe they don’t have a large bed. Maybe, being generous, he volunteered to take the couch.
From my own experience with pregnancy, some of the best sex I ever had with my husband was while I was pregnant…even when I was extremely pregnant and about to burst. Granted, it can require some innovation, but it’s totally doable, pleasurable, and safe. I’ve also known many men who find the pregnant body extremely erotic.
As Evan said, this sounds like a case of lack of education and maturity. But to Hannah & other posters who continue to think the “common” act of masturbation may not be “normal” and instead view it as a deviance that men should morally rise above….Newsflash: men do it, women do it, probably the birds & bees do it. It’s YOUR body and you get to say what pleasures it. If you’re offended that your partner likes to pleasure himself: that’s your insecurity with your own sexuality talking. An active adult sex life, including masturbation, is healthy at any age, with or without a partner.
As a young mother, I remember asking my daughter’s pediatrician (a woman) if it was normal for my young daughter to be asking me questions about touching herself (and liking it!) & how I should respond. The pediatrician — god love her — laughed & told me, “Oh, how I wish more parents understood this: sex is healthy and normal. Tell her she should explore her body (in private) whatever way she wants.” I think that message was as helpful to me as much as it was to my daughter.
If you were raised to believe that arousing yourself was a sin — or at least not something you admit to or talk about — then, yea, you have to re-educate yourself. Trust me, you are not alone. Along with Google there are thousands of books, websites, classes and workshops dedicated to healthy female, male & couple sexuality. There is no excuse for ignorance; in fact, without it, I don’t see how a young couple will make a happy life for themselves or raise a happy child with good self-esteem and self-acceptance.
And for the record — woman, as well as men, enjoy being visually stimulated when masturbating. (And please — 50 Shades of Grey is not fine female erotica — I would put it on the same scale as Girls Gone Wild.) Women also enjoy looking at or fantasizing about people other than our partner when masturbating. That’s why it’s called fantasizing.
Tracy 17
Some women need to relax about the porn. Yes, the women look “perfect,” all thin and hairless! But that wasn’t the case with all porn produced in the past. Look at older porn and everyone is hairy and flabby! Definitely not “perfect” by today’s standards.
But there are things WOMEN can LEARN from porn, too. The first would be that men — their men, real life men — don’t expect their women to look like the porn stars. They just like naked ladies. And they like to see them live, in pictures or on film. They probably like seeing you naked, too.
Secondly, women can learn some other options for sex. Treat it like an instructional video on what you can do to your man and what HE can do to do. Because yes, good men will want to please you, too. If he doesn’t then you have bigger issues than his watching porn.
Heather K 18
I want to weigh in on the porn and masturbating issue. Evan made a comment in comment number 8 that men who masturbate masturbate to porn and that porn exists for men to masturbate. Porn may exist for men to masturbate but not every man masturbates to porn. Maybe these days more men masturbate to porn than to other experiences because porn is more readily available than it even was twenty years ago or ten years ago, but there are still men who for whatever reason don’t masturbate to porn. (Men might not masturbate to porn because they prefer to masturbate to live sex shows, or live people, or fantasies in their head about their third grade teacher, or they just don’t watch porn for religious/moral reasons, etc, etc.)
I think the main problem with porn and possibly what some women might be finding offensive is when porn takes over someone’s sexuality and sexual life. Porn or any fantasies are perfectly acceptable to have and masturbate to as long as they are not distracting anyone from reality and from their real life relationships with their partners. Some women might find the whole ‘deal with it, men watch porn and masturbate to it’ line a little tiresome these days because a lot of women are told that they should tolerate some men’s sex life transitioning away from real sex with their partner to having their men have a self-sexual life involving some images on a computer. Maybe this is ‘normal’ as in there is a very high percentage of men these days who do replace some of the time they would spend with their partner with self-sexual porn experiences, but it doesn’t mean it’s good for everyone.
As far as the specific letter written by Hannah, I am not sure I understand the couch issue. By the way it’s written in the letter, it doesn’t sound like the husband sleeping on the couch was a democratic decision, but without knowing more I am not sure what to say about it. And as far as pregnant sex – I, myself, am pregnant right now and it is possible to have sex while pregnant. Yes, there are some days where I worry that I’m going to hurt the baby and maybe that makes sex not as adventurous as it was before pregnancy and there might be certain positions I feel more comfortable with some days. But overall it is possible to have a regular sex life and still have sex several times a week while pregnant. It can even be fun in certain ways.
And I also agree with Cat5 in comment number 7 that it’s possible to question any societal trend. It’s always okay to ask questions and it does not mean that one is judgmental – it means that one is observing reality with a mindful eye.
Lucy 19
If I was married, I’d be worried if my husband wasn’t watching porn.
Christine 20
Hannah I feel for you, you are not alone. Wow what a flashback to 1998…I was the horniest EVER in my life when I was pregnant, I mean craving intimacy all the time, and my husband wouldn’t lay a hand on me, hold me, cuddle me, let alone have sex with me. He was either grossed out, scared, who knows. So I masturbated my way through the entire pregnancy, and had the most powerful, easily obtained orgasms (maybe due to increased bloodflow down there???). As a side note, my A cup bra went to a C cup, nope no interest in touching those either! Talk did not help – NO adult discussion sunk in, he wouldn’t get near me, I felt like a leper. In 2000 I got pregnant again (LOL from makeup sex when I asked for a divorce - for several reasons, sex was a side issue). It was a complete repeat of the first pregnancy. Yes, I wanted sex every day and got none. After giving birth I remained at a sexual heightened state of wanting. The lack of intimacy continued on its course after the birth of kids, we had sex about once a year until we divorced. The counselor said he probably viewed me as a “mother figure” and his desire tanked. Whatever!
Hannah, nip it in the bud if the lack of sex continues, don’t go down the same path as I did. There is so much professional help out there. I am close to 50 with two teens & on the on-line dating scene, its not easy! Not the way I pictured my life at this point.
Granted every woman is different, but guys reading this, take care of your bride’s needs when she is pregnant, if she feels horny and sexy! Emotions are on overdrive, she can’t help it, its part of the pregnancy. And touch her already if she is normally flat chested and finally has a rack :) She is not a fragile china doll that will break! Evan stated the facts above !
starthrower68 21
@ Ana #1,
Get a bunch of cats. Life is much easier.
Evan Marc Katz 22
@Cat5 - I’ll take the bait.
It’s not “high standards” to insist that your partner never masturbate, never be attracted to other women, never talk to other women, never be friends with ex’s, never save pictures of his ex’s, or any such thing. It’s unrealistic, based on how many normal, healthy, loving, relationship-oriented men act.
If you think that if only a man really loved you he would cease any of the above activities, you are, in fact unreasonable, ridiculous and Pollyanaish.
Of course, my response to you is purely for discussion purposes, and does not reflect my feelings on the subject. I’m just reporting what millions of millions of other men and women have already noticed. I personally find married men who masturbate appalling.
Missy 23
Hannah, Insist he goes to your next doctor or nurse appointment and ask right in front of him, can my husband hurt the baby by having intercourse with me?
Please explain why, doc.
Then he will hear it…
Hopefully he will embrace you after that..
JB 24
I wish all the women would realize that all men don’t like porn where the women look “perfect,” all thin and hairless” with fake boobs etc…..
Many men like a wide variety of porn/types of women and a lot enjoy the exact opposite where the woman are natural, average looking/weight, and have plenty of hair. On any porn site there are 100 categories to choose from that run the gamut of variety. I would even say that many times I find myself maturbating to women that are LESS attractive than the one I may be currently dating. Why? Because I like variety and even though I only date one woman at a time it’s nice to be able to have something different on the side.
Cat5 25
Wow!!! Whta a lot of judgment and vitriol being thrown around because of differing viewpoints. It would be nice to have a conversation without it getting so personal.
Again, I said in my first post, I don’t think the problem was masterbating (a for the record I know it is a normal human behavior), it is the pornorgraphy.
For those who see no problem with pornography or think it should be used as an educational tool, and are never conflicted about it, let me say two things:
1. Then you should have no problem with your child, when they are an adult, going into the porn industry and will, in fact, recommend his or her movies to your friends and brag about them being double penetrated in the movie, and how in their next feature film he or she will be triple penetrated. I await the announcement for how proud you are of him or her and that is what you always wanted for him or her from the day he or she was born.
Oh, and how grateful you were that his or her high school offered PornStar 101 Taking it Deep as a mandatory class in high school.
2. Tell me how you feel after you have had to help pull a loved one out of the porn industry…drug addicted, and diseased. It is not as much fun as you might imagine, and as painful as hell.
To act as if pornography is a harmless and normal thing because it has become common, is like saying that alcohol and drugs have never caused a problem in anyone’s life. I never said I was for it or against, but I am not so arrogant as to believe it is not causing a big problem in the world, nor am I so arrogant that I am not conflicted about how to handle it. I’m also not arrogant enough to believe I have all the answers.
But I am smart enough, and humble enough to ask questions. I hope that more people can become smarter and more humble and start asking questions, and not just jump on the bandwagon because it is easy and what everyone else is doing, i.e., the path of least resistance.
But, back to my original question, I was trying to ask a question about how his masterbating to porn is causing a problem in the relationship, and what could be done that takes into account both of their feelings on the subject.
All I’ve been able to discern from this discussion is that she is being ridiculous and prudish, and he should just ignore her and jack off all day!
Thanks. Got it! :-7
(For the record… “:-7″ apparently means tongue in check…and the pun is entirely intended!)
Crispini 26
Ok, wait, she doesn’t say WHY she makes him sleep on the couch, and I think you’re jumping to conclusions and being a bit hard on her here, Evan. What if she’s a REALLY light sleeper and is having a hard time with that during her pregnancy? Being sleep-deprived is NO FUN and honestly, if she needs a break from sleeping with someone while she’s pregnant, she should be able to ask for that. (Communication, of course, is key).
As a light sleeper myself I have to admit I don’t see this societal pressure on people to share beds. You can still share snuggles and whoopie-time without sleeping in the same bed. Honestly, if and when I ever shack up with a guy, I’m dreading the adjustment – I can’t sleep through the night when I have another human in the same bed with me!
hespeler 27
Does anyone else find it ironic that a large percentage of women cannot have an orgasm via intercourse - a fact that makes us as men have to put our ego aside. But there are some women (some of whom cannot orgasm via intercourse) who are offended that their men jerk off to porn every once in a while…
Joe 28
Zann beat me to it–I was gonna say that maybe she feels it’s hard to sleep with him in their bed when she’s way knocked up. If not, this guy is a total doormat.
John 29
There have been a few comments about how guys like the porn chicks with perfect bods and hairless. Now I know some women dont have the time to work out or didn’t hit the genetic lottery with slim figures, BUT there is no reason why any woman cant be hairless. I understand that maybe a perfect body of a 25 year old porn star cant be replicated by the average woman. But the hairless part can certainly be. As a matter of fact on porn sites, there are categories you can choose from. And hairless is one of them. So ladies, if you feel you cant measure up to the porn queens in the physique department, you certainly can measure up in the grooming department. And that goes a long way.
Kathleen 30
John 28
Your comment reminds me of a couple of guys who on the FIRST date with me state their expectation/demand that I be hairless. ( Excluding my mane of hair on my head) Didn’t learn much about these unsophisticated guys cause I excused my self and walked out but I expect their life revolved around porn.
Don’t know about the other women on here John but I don’t aspire to measure up to a porn star.
Maggie 31
I never had a problem with my husband masturbating to porn. Partly because I probably masturbate to porn more than he does =p There are things that turn people on that they just won’t do in real life, and porn and masturbation cater to that. I love masturbating to extreme BSDM clips, for instance, but I’m never going to engage in it. My risk tolerance isn’t that high. My husband probably masturbates to threesome porn or some other shit, but as long as it’s not child pornography, I don’t care.
What I may (I say may because I’m almost over it) have a problem with is that he enjoys watching porn WHILE we’re having sex. Not all the time, not even most of the time, but he asks for it every now and then. Now if I allowed him to video tape us while we’re having sex (which I won’t), and then watch that tape while we’re having sex, then he doesn’t need the porn. So, I’m thinking he really just gets off on seeing some action while we’re having sex. It just bothered me at first because I was like hello… you’re having sex with me NOW. Why the heck do you want to watch something else???
But like I said, I’m almost over it. Energy’s too precious to waste overthinking it haha
John 32
Kathleen #29
Whoa I dont think there is a comparison to what I am saying VS the dates you had with those guys. I took it from the tone of the letter and from some comments, that some women are intimidated by what the girls of porn do for their men. And so I was just saying that the hairless part is definitely one of the attractions of those girls. And so any woman can compete with that. If you dont aspire to be like a pron star then so be it. But if I was in a relationship and not a first date situation and the girl why I liked porn, the hairless part would be one of the freasons why. How you took that and made it about you is beyond me. If this blog caters to women as to the male thought process, then I dont see how bringing up the hairless thing offends you. Most guys like that and since that is a hallmark of porn nowadays and the topic was about porn, I didnt see any harm.
Maggie 33
Cat5 # 25
I see where you’re coming from, and yes, I’m conflicted about it. To your question, yes, I won’t be okay with my kids going into the porn industry, even though I enjoy porn. But I think (and yes, this is me thinking out loud, my opinions regarding this topic’s still being formed) it’s because I don’t want them to be stigmatized by society, and not because I have anything against it per se. The same way that if I had a choice, I’d rather not have a kid who’s gay, not because I’m homophobic — far from it, I hate bigotry of any sort — but because he or she has a higher chance of being bullied and discriminated against.
Karmic Equation 34
In my last two relationships (recent one ended on Saturday. LOL. Now I can try the “circular dating” thing…But I digress) — I actually watched my men masturbate in bed. It’s a bonding experience imo. My ex bf of 6 years would ask occasionally if I would help him (and I would occasionally) and the new ex bf one would just hold me close while he did it. No asking, typical alpha. LOL
My last two bfs regularly “manscaped”. Ladies, if you haven’t been with a manscaped man, you don’t know what you’re missing. In the future, I’m certain that if a bf doesn’t already manscape, we will have a flirty conversation about why he should. I can bet you he will without further prompting. So I can understand why men like hairless women. It’s just so much…neater…And this is an interesting article about that.
I used to go with an ex bf to porn shops for toys and DVDs and we’d buy ones we could both enjoy. I also enjoy reading Forum letters. You can actually see how the world changed about what was risque back in the 80′s (sex outdoors, like on roller coasters, must have been a lie) to 90′s (I think bathroom activities, like golden showers; and S&M) to now, which is threesomes/multis.
Just as you might fantasize about marrying Brad Pitt or Harrison Ford, men fantasize about having sex with other women. Equivalent, not equal, fantasies. Another correlation to the women want relationships and men want sex topic.
Ellen 35
John #29: your views are unfortunately widespread, but I’m not going to have ANY man dictate to me how the lower half of me should look like, ESPECIALLY as he has no idea the upkeep to “make him happy”.
Screw it. Glad I’m a boomer. I feel sorry for younger women who feel they have to replicate what they see on porn sites cause certain men feel entitled. YOU pay for the bikini waxes weekly, etc. OR I’ll do all that friggin maintenance if YOU go completely hairless too. How about that?
FTN (guess what that’s an acronym for)
PS “grooming”, believe me, is a relative term buddy.
Amelia2.0 36
John, I believe you weren’t trying to be offensive, but I feel the same way Kathleen @ 30 does. I think it is always reasonable to expect basic hygiene, but it’s rather annoying to be held to the standards of pornography, even the hairlessness. These days you could just as well put the shoe on the other foot, as men in pornography aren’t exactly going by 70′s archetype anymore, either. I often see hairlessness as a common standard for male actors as well, depending on the type of porn (and as you mentioned, you can narrow that down pretty easily). Would you be understanding if women thought you ought to “groom” by completely waxing your face, chest, nutsack, etc based on what they see and prefer in porn? Or hell, on romance novels? I’d wager not.
An analogy might be if someone dumped you because even though you cook good food, you don’t cook or present your dishes like an Iron Chef on TV. If you found out that’s the standard you were in for on a date, then the only sensible thing would be to say “Well, bye.” a la Curly Bill in Tombstone. If your date has yet to learn the difference between reality and fantasy, what chance is there to earn acceptance from them?
Kathleen 37
John 32 The topic of this post was not porn
Ellen Right on!!! Ive found men who dictate this most especially upfront, are focused on their fetish and this takes priority over knowing who the woman is.
K 38
@john you may not have presented it well, but the concept does not offend me. I don’t love going bare, but if my bf loved it I may do it again. I sometimes do things I don’t love, but bc I know they turn my partner on. I’d obviously be more agreeable to this if he took my preferences into account whatever they may be, waxing chest/no beard etc.
Androgynous 39
Another point which women may not necessarily know about – sex and mastubation are really really great STRESS RELIEVERSs – particularly for men. Many women relieve stress by yakking, bitching and crying – should men try to stop women from doing these things because it annoys them ? I know the sound of wailing is particularly grating for some men – and can actually cause real physical pain in them.
I like to say that when men and women are subject to great stress (at the workplace as an example) both rush off to the toilets – the women to cry, and the men to wank.
John 40
Ameila2.0 #36
“Would you be understanding if women thought you ought to “groom” by completely waxing your face, chest, nutsack, etc based on what they see and prefer in porn? Or hell, on romance novels? I’d wager not.”
I hope you dont make bets for a living since you would lose this one. I most certainly do manscape all the way. Been doing it for years. Strangely enough what convinced me to do that was a couple of my guys friends said they did that and the sex was so much better. My girl at the time didnt care either way so I tried it and voila I never looked back. Its awesome.
Not sure why you think I demand women do this. I just stated in a comment how hairlessness is a turn on and one of the hottest parts about porn. And since it has its own category on porn sites, I am sure many others agree hence its own category.
As far as Ellens #35 thoughts that men who dictate this upfront are turn offs, I agree. There is no place to just blurt that stuff out when initially dating. But if I am with a new partner and the topic comes up of turn ons, that one is surely near the top. If the guys you are with “demand” this, then maybe the choices in men you choose to go out with needs some work.
Amelia2.0 41
John,
Fair enough about your own preferences, and I’m happy to be wrong since you walk the talk, which I respect. Your comments came across to me as if porn star standards of hairlessness are the only way women as a whole can “measure up” in general, which is why I called them out. If a lady’s goal is in fact to measure up to porn, then sure, I get what you’re saying. But to measure up for dating in general? Then no, a woman should not have to think that she needs to be at a porn star level in order to succeed.
For the record, my boyfriend is one hairy bastard. He’d be shaving all day to get the hair all off and by then it would look like the scene in Trouble with Tribbles. But– and this is my preference – I love it. I realize I made us sound like Mr. and Ms. Bigfoot but oh well. There’s a porn for that I’m sure.
Nadia 42
Cat5, thank you for being the courageous one to take the bullet by raising the questions you have. I’m sure there are a lot of women out there–including myself–who appreciated the peek at the obvious other side. I agree that just because a behavior is common does not mean it doesn’t have a dark side. Which porn does. And if using porn is the benign sexual outlet that so many men claim it is, then why is it so hard to put their partner’s feelings first? Is it wrong to masturbate? Not in my opinion. Is it wrong that people get turned on by porn? Nope. It’s a human reaction. But is it a corrupt industry that takes advantage of women, who, if healthier, might not choose the porn industry as a career path? I can’t imagine that it’s not. Nor is it reasonable to think that regular porn use isn’t detrimental to relationships, because it can be. And speaking personally, whether or not it is, depends on the man and the preoccupation level. I’m also confident that there are plenty of men who enjoy masturbating to the fantasies in their head over porn. I know several of these men. More power to them and their imaginations, if you ask me.
Girl in the Midwest 43
About the hairlessness in the ladyparts thing… I guess I’m very practical about it. If I get the impression that I’m reducing my dating pool by a huge percentage by not shaving/waxing, then I probably would go hairless or at least groom. If my experience says that I’m not really turning off guys by going au naturale, I’m probably more lax about it.
I’m pretty sure guys do lots of things as well for the sole purpose of pleasing girls. Like showering and not burping loudly and wearing deodorant…at least that’s what my bf tells me.
Karl R 44
Cat5 said: (#25)
“you should have no problem with your child, when they are an adult, going into the porn industry”
Over the holidays, my father-in-law told a story about trying to convince my brother-in-law to quit working as a stocker in a grocery store and go to college instead.
My father-in-law has nothing against the grocery industry. He appreciates the benefits he gains from its existence. He just didn’t want to see his son get stuck in a dead-end job.
I would recommend against joining the porn industry because it’s a dead-end career with a lousy retirement plan.
My parents didn’t brag about my minimum-wage temp jobs (and I doubt that my in-laws would either). However, they don’t see me as being a lousy spouse because I’m willing to call Prostaff, Manpower or Robert Half if I need some data-entry done.
Cat5 said: (#25)
“Tell me how you feel after you have had to help pull a loved one out of the porn industry…drug addicted, and diseased.”
In the United States, an STD will get a porn star kicked out of the industry. Regular tests are mandatory (as are birth certificates proving age of consent).
A friend of mine was in three gay pornos. He probably would have continued, but he tested HIV+.
My friend is intelligent in his own way. (Our group of friends use him as our living example of intelligence without wisdom.) He has an Ivy League education. He has a well-paying job as a computer programmer. He did the gay porn because he got paid about $1,500 for doing something he happily would have done for free.
And he will happily brag to you about how one of his sex scenes won an award at the gay porn movie awards. (I didn’t know they existed until he bragged to me about his nomination.) He is quite proud of how he was double-penetrated in that scene.
My friend was popping party drugs (against my advice) before he ever did porn. He had lots of sex (a fair amount of it unsafe sex) before he ever did porn. He got HIV by having unsafe sex one last time. He even expected that his lifestyle would eventually cause him to become infected with HIV.
My friend doesn’t blame the porn industry for what happened to him. He openly admits that he caught HIV due to his own choices. I don’t even think he would choose to go back and live his life differently if you gave him the opportunity.
I don’t know which of your loved ones did porn, but maybe you ought to take a look at the role their own decisions played in their problems.
Ruby 45
Karl R #44
“In the United States, an STD will get a porn star kicked out of the industry. Regular tests are mandatory (as are birth certificates proving age of consent).”
Not exactly true, although a measure that would require porn stars to wear condoms passed in Los Angeles this past November. The porn industry fought this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/01/la-porn-stars-stds-nevada-prostitutes-study-video_n_2058406.html
Karl R 46
Nadia asked: (#42)
“But is it a corrupt industry that takes advantage of women, who, if healthier, might not choose the porn industry as a career path? I can’t imagine that it’s not.”
Let’s assume for a moment that your two assumptions are correct. 1) The women choose to work in the porn industry because they’re unhealthy. 2) If the women were healthier, they would choose another career. (You’ve provided no evidence, besides your imagination, that your assumptions are correct … but I’m not about to disprove them this evening.)
I could similarly argue that migrant farm workers end up being taken advantage of because they’re poor, uneducated and unable to speak English. If you put the fruit and vegetable growers of the United States out of business, the migrant farm workers would still be poor, uneducated and unable to speak English … and they’d be unemployed too. (And I don’t think “unemployed” solves any of their problems.)
And if the ex-migrant farm workers found another job, it would be in another industry which would take advantage of the fact they were poor, uneducated and unable to speak English.
The only way to help the ex-migrant farm workers would be to educate them and teach them the local language. Refusing to eat fruits and vegetables is unlikely to benefit them.
If you want to find a way to make young women healthier (or migrant farm workers better educated), I’ll applaud your efforts … regardless of whether the industries that employ them are corrupt and taking advantage of them.
Nadia asked: (#42)
“And if using porn is the benign sexual outlet that so many men claim it is, then why is it so hard to put their partner’s feelings first?”
I put my wife’s feelings first. I found a wife who doesn’t care if I watch porn.
Evan put his wife’s feelings first. He found a wife who doesn’t care if he watches porn.
If your partner didn’t feel like working for a living, would you put his feelings first by supporting the deadbeat? Or would you dump him and find a man who felt like earning a living like a normal adult?
In some cases, the best way to put your partner’s feelings first is to find a different partner.
Nadia said: (#42)
“I’m also confident that there are plenty of men who enjoy masturbating to the fantasies in their head over porn. I know several of these men.”
Are the men masturbating to fantasies or memories? I have a good imagination, but creating an imaginary woman down to the last detail takes a bit of work. Instead of reinventing the wheel, it’s much easier to envision the women I’ve already seen (and felt) naked.
Do you feel that a man’s former sex partners are less threatening than girls on the internet whom he’ll never meet (and quite possibly has no interest in meeting)? Many women wouldn’t.
The problem with Hannah and her husband boils down to their inability to meet each others’ needs … probably caused by their inability to openly communicate their needs.
Nadia 47
Karl, my question was a sincere one: Why, if porn doesn’t mean that much to men, is it so hard to put their partner’s feelings first, assuming the wife isn’t ok with it? Why should the woman suppress her feelings about it to be accommodating to her man, and not the other way around? I’m not trying to be challenging, I”m genuinely curious. There are plenty of women who are okay with porn use, and plenty who aren’t comfortable with it. Would you ditch your wife if suddenly she developed an insecurity around it, sneak it when she wasn’t around, or just tell her, too bad? As for the corruption of the porn industry, I didn’t think I needed to post links to books and articles to a topic that was already so well exposed in that regard. I agree with you that many women wouldn’t be comfortable with their man masturbating to images of previous encounters. I’m not one of them. In general, if I feel loved and secure and desired in a relationship, all these masturbatory distractions are just that: distractions. But you are really, really kidding yourself if you think there aren’t a lot of hurt women walking around as a result of over-preoccupations their men have with porn, and that’s ultimately damaging to relationships.
Nadia 48
Maggie #31, I would ask you the same question I have posed in general. Why, if you were uncomfortable with your husband always wanting to watch porn while he was having sex with you, did you feel the need to “get over it” instead of having your feelings be respected? Personally, I would hate sex like that. Where’s the connection and the intimacy with each other? There are a lot of men out there who not only don’t need to watch porn during sex, but who would find it as empty as most women.
Anonymous Editor 49
There are many reasons why I masturbate to porn, even though I’m happily married and have a kid coming along:
1) Since young, I’ve always jerked off to porn when I’m bored, stressed, or horny, and I don’t think I’ll stop any time soon, unless my libido starts to slow down.
2) Sometimes my wife isn’t in the mood or she’s tired from work. Not to mention she has a low sex drive. Instead of asking her to put out for me, I just rub one out in the morning when she has gone to work. I find it more convenient and considerate than asking her to have sex.
3) Previously when my wife was having her period, her breasts would become sensitive and sore, so she would not be in the mood for sex.
4) Porn is the quickest way for me to get aroused. When I’m short on time and I just need a quick release, reading/watching porn is faster than fantasizing about my wife.
5) I have some kinks/fetishes that I cannot do in real life or that my wife will never agree to participate in, so porn helps me achieve my sexual release without cheating on her.
My wife is aware of my kinks/fetishes, and I don’t make any attempt to hide them. However, when I masturbate, I try to keep it discreet or do it when she’s not around.
sarahrahrah! 50
@ John #29
Are you freaking kidding me? This reminds me of the post from a week or two ago about the “war on men” because men can’t be men like they could be 50 years ago.
Guess what? Grandpa didn’t require Grams to shave her legs, let alone torture herself by ripping out the hairs from the most sensitive part of her body. He stayed with her through sickness and in health. He managed to have enough cajones to find *something* to be attracted to (and sex-worthy) even as she turned gray and got wrinkles that she didn’t fill in with Restylane. He fathered many children with her — and, presumably, got boners — without the help of a high-speed internet connection.
I want a man like Gramps, even if he’s not a spiffy dresser.
Sorry, but I just don’t get men like you, John. I don’t think you truly want a living, breathing, *real* woman. You see, we have other things to do besides color, buff, wax, pluck, work out, tone, soak and otherwise spend inordinate amounts of time trying to alter our natural state. There is nothing wrong with grooming and exercise — and Grandma would agree — but needing to painfully alter the body in a way that ends up putting someone at a higher risk for STDs and that takes away a natural buffer for active sex just doesn’t make any sense to me. I’ll take you in your mostly natural state; why can’t you accept women in the same way?
This attitude of entitlement — of men thinking that they are entitled to having their female partners undergo painful and dangerous procedures in order to look like porn stars — is just one of the many fallouts from the porn boom in the past 15 years.
I am an attractive and sensual woman, but if a man doesn’t want me simply because I don’t conform to typical porn images, he can go fuck himself. I ultimately wouldn’t respect him in the long run because he has compromised his innate aesthetics for some mass-produced, cookie cutter, stereotypical imagery. It would be like me wanting my man to dress, groom and act like Brad Pitt.
@ Karl R #44, cat5 #25
I also think that it is wise for people to question the porn industry. The average length of the career of a pornographic actor is only three months. This is because people’s (predominantly women) bodies get spent from the abuse they receive regularly in the sex acts they engage in for their work. Prolapsed uterus, bladders and intestines are commonplace. Source: Robert Jensen in “Getting Off.” These statistics can be found other places. However, long-term health care is not available for these people after they are no longer actively working in the industry. How fair is that?
You know, if there was someone on the street poking needles in his cheeks so people would give him money, I wouldn’t want to support that. I would be horrified and walk away, not wanting to support him hurting himself for show and profit. I see the situation with actors in the porn industry to be no different.
In the past couple of years there have been HIV infections transmitted between porn actors who were supposedly getting tested. However, there are false negatives and many people ended up getting HIV through this business that doesn’t protect it’s workers and is currently even fighting to keep condoms out of pornography all together.
I cannot respect or support an industry that wholesale treats human beings like disposable gloves — to be used and then discarded — and I don’t understand how any self-proclaimed liberal can continue to uncritically support this industry without at least recognizing the huge human rights abuses inherent in it.
(PLEASE NOTICE: I’ve never said one thing about sex or free expression. I’m wholeheartedly for both of those! :-)
Jennifer 51
John#29-just for the record, I don’t think you deserve the beating you’ve taken here. I understood your point and didn’t find you offensive or entitled.
John 52
Sarah #50
You must be doing something wrong. Every woman I have dated in the past few years did the hairless thing. Most did it on their own without me even bringing up the topic. It is so mainstream to the 40s women I date. If it was as painful and torturous as you say, then maybe you are doing it wrong.
I guess besides not knowing how to groom yourself in a painfree way the way many women have already figured out, you also dont know how to read. It was something I said was a turn on, not a demand at all.
Suzanne 53
A very lively debate here. I dont understand why the wife makes the hubby sleep on the couch. I have 2 kids and I craved that cuddling even more so when pregnant. So I dont know why she would want to lose that intimacy.
As for the discussion regarding porn and shaving, personally, I dont see this to be a big deal. If I shave a couple of times a week, especially on the weekends or prior to going on vacation then thats pretty easy to do. SOme women are making this out to be a big deal and I find that doing it when taking a bath is the easiest way. If something that simple makes my hubbby happy then it becomes part of my routine. He doesnt complain if I go a few days it but since I know he enjoys it and its a simple thing to do, then its worth it. Besides, I have more leverage when I want him to open the checkbook for something I want for the house!
Karl R 54
Nadia said: (#47)
“you are really, really kidding yourself if you think there aren’t a lot of hurt women walking around as a result of over-preoccupations their men have with porn, and that’s ultimately damaging to relationships.”
If a man prefers porn to sex with his partner, I’ll recommend that she dump him unless he’s willing to change and meet her needs for physical intimacy. That’s a dysfunctional relationship.
I find Hannah’s situation (having her husband sleep on the couch when he’d clearly prefer to cuddle in bed with her) to be equally dysfunctional. She hasn’t been meeting his physical intimacy needs. Now their situation has hit the point where he isn’t meeting hers either … and neither one has the guts to initiate a discussion which could lead to some solutions.
Nadia said: (#47)
“Why should the woman suppress her feelings about it to be accommodating to her man, and not the other way around?”
Typically the underlying feeling is insecurity. Regardless of whether it’s the man or woman feeling the insecurity, I’m going to say that the insecure person should be the one to change.
sarahrahrah! said: (#50)
“long-term health care is not available for these people after they are no longer actively working in the industry. How fair is that?”
For years I worked as a temp through a couple temp agencies. My employers didn’t pay for any health care. They didn’t pay for sick time off. If I became sick during an assignment, I typically went to work sick. If I was too sick to show up and work, I could generally expect that another temp would replace me and complete that assignment. When I recovered, I would be “between assignments” (which means I was not working and not getting paid).
For every $1.00 that a client paid for my services, I received 40 to 55 cents (depending on the assignment) before taxes. The agency kept the rest.
While clients typically provided ergonomic work spaces for their own employees, temps routinely have to work in non-ergonomic spaces doing repetitive-motion tasks. (One assignment had me working 10 hour days in the same non-ergonomic chair doing the same repetitive-motion task for 5 months straight.) Not only would I have received no long-term care for any repetitive-motion injuries I suffered, I wouldn’t have received any short term care during the assignment either.
How fair is that?
sarahrahrah! said: (#50)
“if there was someone on the street poking needles in his cheeks so people would give him money, I wouldn’t want to support that. I would be horrified and walk away, not wanting to support him hurting himself for show and profit. I see the situation with actors in the porn industry to be no different.”
I wasn’t doing temp work for show. I was just doing it so I could pay the rent and buy food. Do you consider exploitation to be more tolerable when it happens in back offices where nobody sees it?
When I did that 5 month task, I was working for ExxonMobil. I have also worked as a temp for most of the other major oil companies (and numerous supporting companies which the major oil firms use). All of those companies still use temps (except for the ones which have gone out of business).
Given your strongly-stated principles, are you intending to stop using gasoline and other petroleum products in order to avoid supporting temps hurting themselves for below-average wages?
It’s easy to self-righteously state that you’d never support an industry when you have no interest in using their products. But unless you’re equally willing to stop supporting an industry whose products you already use, you’re just another hypocrite.
Nadia said: (#47)
“Why, if porn doesn’t mean that much to men, is it so hard to put their partner’s feelings first, assuming the wife isn’t ok with it?”
Why, if porn does bother these women that much, is it so hard for the women to simply have sex with their boyfriends/husbands enough so the men don’t bother with it?
If my wife is having sex with me 3+ times per week, I’m not bothering with porn. (This was also true with previous partners.) If Anonymous Editor’s wife (#49) was having sex with him daily and participating in his fetishes, I doubt he’d bother with porn.
Most of the men watching porn are like us. We’d rather be having sex with our partner.
Why are the woman’s feelings the only ones that matter in this situation? Is it because you’re a woman?
I find it equally suspicious that your concern for the health and welfare of other humans covers female porn stars, but doesn’t cover male and female migrant farm workers, or male and female temp employees, or male and female minimum-wage employees in any other industry. It makes me wonder whether your concern for health and welfare is sincere … or whether it’s just a convenient facade to further your argument in opposition to porn.
Nadia said: (#47)
“Would you ditch your wife if suddenly she developed an insecurity around it, sneak it when she wasn’t around, or just tell her, too bad?”
If my wife suddenly develops an insecurity (about anything) my primary interest is in discovering the reason behind it. Unless we address the underlying issue, it’s going to manifest in other ways in the future.
But more to your point, my wife and I would reach a compromise. One of the reasons I married her is because she’s always willing to compromise. Would you be willing to give up a few hours of TV per week (even if it includes your favorite TV shows) in order to make the time to have more sex with your partner? If so, a compromise can easily be reached. If not, then why do you find it so hard to put your partner’s feelings first?
Kathleen 55
Sarahrahrah 50
Great post !!! You had me dying laughing
David T 56
To the moderator: Crud. Paragrpah breaks often don’t work right when I am on a mac. Looks fine in the WSYWIG editor then they vanish upon post. Here is a more readable version of the prior post if you care to substitute:
@John Most guys like [hairless women]
Have you any statistics to back that up? It ain’t true for me. Hairless is just weird. As for manscaping, years ago one female friend suggested that grooming was a good idea, but the one girlfriend I talked about that with specifically said it was a turn OFF for her.
Different strokes fur different folks.
@Sarahrahrah
if a man doesn’t want me simply because I don’t conform to typical porn images, he can go fuck himself
That is exactly what he will end up doing! I literally LOL’d when I read that. ( Milk came out my nose, and I wasn’t even DRINKING milk. Maybe I should see a doctor.)
There have not been any male perspectives on one side of the porn question, so here is my 2¢. I used to think as long as an activity is consensual it was OK which I think reflects the sentiment behind Karl’s underpaid migrant worker analogy. In my world an industry that exploits or takes advantage of people because they have no other options, is wrong. This is why sweat shop garments lead to boycotts. A industry that exploits and does harm to its workers is really reprehensible.
If you choose to dismiss the very real disease and body harm aspects, porn takes a very fundamental core part of who we are and turns it into a transaction with no nurturing or feeling behind it. That is going to change how the adult industry worker experiences sex. The job is an assault on a fundamental part of the workers’ humanity, less than being a hitman or combat soldier, but certainly of that nature.
Many porn workers wish they had other options. Many of them are aware that they are wrecking their own personal sexuality. A lot of them end up with STDs. Their psychological distress sometimes drives them to consume harmful drugs to hide from their discomfort. Perhaps a few “adult models” are unharmed in mind and spirit and body, but there are plenty who are harmed.
Maybe you justify your own consumption, because clicking pirated, old or free material online makes a very indirect contribution to this industry, but even that click does create an incentive to produce more. My own personal decision to turn away from this widely accepted entertainment came a few years ago after doing some reading and thinking about what is right for me. To calibrate who I am, I avoid shopping at store chains that use what I consider unfair labor practices (yes, I often end up paying more someplace else) and when I see a headline on Google news that points to a news outlet with questionable editorial practices or biases, I search for the same story by another outlet to avoid giving them any benefit that might accrue to them from my click.
@Karl The only way to help the ex-migrant farm workers would be to educate them and teach them the local language. Refusing to eat fruits and vegetables is unlikely to [improve their situation]
I remember a grape boycott that helped improve working conditions for migrant workers once. I fundamentally disagree with you that my boycott of products that harm workers does not make a difference.
If a person making the choice to use porn is aware that many of the people behind the images are hurting themselves because they are psychologically damaged from early life experiences (a lot of porn workers were molested) or feel they have few or no other options, then it is also a window into that person’s ethics.
Am I 100% Mr. Perfect? No. Sometimes I shop at Walmart when I can’t find what I need someplace else and I am in a hurry. Sometimes I eat chocolate made from cocoa harvested by slave labor, but usually I will pay more for fair trade, and yeah, sometimes, usually when I am upset with myself for some reason and want to feel worse (we all have our dark moments), I have looked at porn. It doesn’t mean its not wrong.
When I start to go there, I look at those people as *people*, imagine the distress they might be under, and how they used to be someone’s young child and wow, the images aren’t a turn on anymore. I have no doubt that 500 years ago people still sought and found release on their own. I get my turn on from memories and from just focusing on sensation. It is amazing how the latter puts you in tune with your body and the kind of control you develop without thinking about baseball.
Evan will correctly say that with 90% of men using porn regularly, a woman will tremendously shrink her dating pool if she makes this a deal breaker. Agreed. I beleive Evan will also agree she is free to make that choice and there are still sexually healthy, horny men remaining in her pool. In the end a relationship is always a compromise of our internal wish lists, and each individual has to choose when the summation of checklist misses adds up to dealbreaker.This is one that will cost a lot for some here to compromise on.
hespeler 57
“I am an attractive and sensual woman, but if a man doesn’t want me simply because I don’t conform to typical porn images, he can go fuck himself. I ultimately wouldn’t respect him in the long run because he has compromised his innate aesthetics for some mass-produced, cookie cutter, stereotypical imagery. It would be like me wanting my man to dress, groom and act like Brad Pitt.”
He can go F himself but he’ll probably go find someone else to go F who grooms themselves and worksout in a manner that is more consistent with what he’s looking for. The word Comensurate is a good one to keep in mind. You get a comensurate salary for your experience and you get a comensurate partner for what you’re looking for and what you can offer.
If you don’t want to go the extra mile to conform to standards of beauty that are more in line with the standards of today then please don’t have any demands about the physical charactersitics or lack thereof of your partners.
Karmic Equation 58
@John
I’m with Jennifer. I didn’t take it that you were demanding anything. Just stating a preference.
Kathleen 59
Hespeler 56
Who’s standard of beauty are you referring to? Hey if you and John love the porn star look I hope you both get with the porn star looking woman of your dreams. To each their own!
But there are other women out there who can look great and be in great shape that don’t like being told that we should conform to looking like a porn star.
Ive had online guys tell me before Ive even met them to wear a very short dress, heels and a specific perfume for the first date. This is the same mindset as the guys who dictate I be completely shaved before Ive even decided if Im attracted to them. Are you saying we are supposed to be insecure that these freaks might want someone else?
Some other guy 60
For a man to have a preference regarding shaving down below is understandable, and it’s nice if a woman doesn’t mind accommodating her beau, but any man who puts this in even the top ten of important things in a partner shows himself to be very, very shallow.
Ruby 61
John wrote, “BUT there is no reason why any woman cant be hairless. I understand that maybe a perfect body of a 25 year old porn star cant be replicated by the average woman. But the hairless part can certainly be…. you certainly can measure up in the grooming department. And that goes a long way.”
Sounds like John is assuming that because he prefers women with no body hair, that other men naturally feel the same, and that not being hairless means that you don’t “measure up”. Couldn’t be further from the truth.
JustMe 62
@ David T
“Crud”. laugh of the week.
Locutus 63
Clearly the attitudes of some women in here are anti-men. You seem to have a take anything said to yo uwith defiance. If a woman asked me to shave down there because she found it sexier I would do it without hesitation. Why not? If i can do something that she thinks makes me even sexier then I’m all for it.
sarahrahrah! ….”he can go fuck himself”- obviously you have underlying anger issues with men. Do you keep a mop down there? If so, gross. Every male AND female friend I have would say that is disgusting!! LOL. Go see how many guys would be turned on by that. There are some, but I guarantee you they are in the overwhelming minority. Do you let your under arm hair grow too??? Do you think it would be “demanding” if a guy wanted you to trim that? To me keeping a hairy vagina is the same thing as not showering. If a woman doesn’t want to groom herself- I shave my beard neat and keep groomed everywhere else so I expect the same in return. If I let my finger nails grow and refused to cut them I would expect a woman to be turned off.
Ruby,
I don’t have statistics, but by word of mouth to the many friends I have- even both male and female…MOST women shave clean or at least keep a tiny trimmed strip- either is sexy to me! I would wager a guess that probably more than 80% of guys feel this way- at least in the Northeast US. I can’t speak of other places. So, I would wager a bet that John is mostly correct.
Kathleen,
And I have had plenty of women ask about penis size before ever meeting too…yup it works both ways…..
Suzanne 64
Ruby @61
Other men may like the natural look but I have to be honest that my husband and the men I dated prior to him all liked it clean shaven. No guy ever asked me to keep it natural but plenty asked me to keep it off. Also in talking to my girlfriends who are single, they all say the same thing- the guys they are with all prefer the shaved look. These guys supposedly brought up the topic when they became intimate not when they first met. So anecdotally, I have to agree that most men prefer this by a longshot. If you dont prefer to keep it that way that is your business but you are fooling yourself if you think that John and most guys dont pay attention to that.
And I do think that his comments earlier were not offensive and he was pointing out a way for a woman to somewhat level the playing field if she finds her man watching too much porn. I bet if a girl was natural and then she shaved it out of the blue, he would notice.
hespeler 65
Kathleen 59,
Even though I used a quote from a previous post my post wasn’t directed at anyone or anything personal. I was trying to convey that everyone is free to go about attracting the opposite sex in their own way. And that sometimes we can be hypocritical in the sense that we don’t want to do something such as working out and keeping a very toned and muscular physique (just as an example) but we expect our partner do exactly that.
Those “freaks” are doing just as you said – trying to make you their fantasy or fetish or whatever. Not cool and I don’t endorse it. They should be interested in how you personally present yourself first and foremost. There are certain physical attributes I would love to have in the women I date but I have never nor will I ever ask a date, especially one I barely know, to wear or do something specific. I want to be attracted to a woman’s own style and the way she her carries herself. Moreover, that would be an attempt to control the whims of another person which is not possible.
Admittedly, one of the frustrations I’ve experienced in dating post-divorce is the fitness-level of my dating pool. I have become attracted to more muscular-looking (not as big as female bodybuilders) women in the last few years. But my idea of muscle and the idea of 99% of the women I meet are not in line. That is to say I like a little more muscle on women than most if not all of the women I date have. They may workout but they stick to mainly cardio and don’t do resistance training as much as I would like. There’s absolutely nothing I can do about it so I have to accept that my idea of fitness is not in-line with MOST of the women I date.
Sooo, I will fantasize about fitness models and women but I will bring myself down to reality and date and try and forge relationships with women who have at least an acceptable level of fitness to me but not in-line with what I really wish for. It’s Ok, we can’t have it all. I would never tell a women that she needs to hit the gym and make her triceps pop a little more before our first date.
Jennifer 66
To me it sounded like john was offering an idea to women who felt like they may not ‘measure up’ to or be as ‘desireable’ as a porn star. Like the letter writer.
JB 67
Yep “different strokes fur different folks”. I, at 52 yrs old personally love the “hair down there” but it’s not a deal breaker for me as it is for most of the younger guys I work with who have grown up in an era where the “bush” has only even been seen in “vintage’ porn. I tell any woman I’m seeing to keep it if they have it or grow it if they don’t. Some comply and some let it go in one ear and out the other. I in turn would have no problem with THEM (not me) shaving and waxing my entire body if that’s what they wanted as long they did what I wanted. It doesn’t matter to me what my body looks like hairy or not. That’s fair right?
Evan Marc Katz 68
Was pretty sure this post was about communication between a married and pregnant couple, not about pubic hair standards. Amazing how we go off here, isn’t it?
Ruby 69
Suzanne #64
I’ve dated plenty of men, and have never received such a comment or request. A few have told me they like the natural look, but as has been mentioned, it may well be a generational thing, as I’m over 50. Men in my age range (like JB) seem to have different preferences.
However, I would agree with EMK that the LW’s problems have little, if anything, to do with her body hair.
David T #56
Awesome post. I wasn’t going to weigh in on the porn debate, but if I ask myself if this would be a career I would envision for anyone I personally cared about, it isn’t.
Some other guy 70
@Evan #68 – From monster penis to pubic hair, this thread delivers
Joe 71
@ Evan # 68: Maybe the wife stopped shaving when she got knocked up?
Anyway, if shaving is too much of a bother for you, laser is no longer that expensive. If you shop well, you can get it done for under $500. And yes, I walk the walk.
Amelia2.0 72
I certainly appreciate that this thread has been allowed to run its curly, bristly course, even though it looks like team Bush and team Sleek are deadlocked like sparkly vampires battling werewolves
Tom10 73
Just one more comment on pubes Evan.
Sarahrahrah! # 50
Your reaction to John’s comment was ridiculously ott. He merely stated what turns him on; he didn’t issue an edict demanding women groom themselves according to his standards. If you like sporting a fine bush that’s your business, but if I went back with a woman and found Don King snuggling between her thighs there’s no way I’ll be coming back for seconds. I won’t go f*** myself though, I’ll just go find some other woman who keeps things nice and tidy.
Sorry, but I just don’t get women like you – why do you come here to find out how men think, and then abuse them when they say how they think?
Ruby # 69
I wasn’t going to weigh in on the porn debate either because ultimately it’s pointless. The porn debate was fought – and lost by the anti-porn side – 30 years ago so it’s around to stay whether we like it or not. The issue isn’t whether you would envision porn as a career for someone you care about, the issue is with women (like Hannah) who have a problem with their partners masturbating to it.
As David T explained, most men do it – and will continue to do so regardless of what anyone thinks – so women who have a problem with that should confine themselves to the small minority who don’t because as Evan keeps saying, you can’t change men so don’t bother trying.
David T 74
@Joe And yes, I walk the walk.
What walk? You mean bowlegged for a day or so?
@Evan68 Was pretty sure this post was about communication between a married and pregnant couple
I was wondering when the referee would step with a delay of game call. I had to hit the porn topic because that is an important issue that I think we as a society are far too casual about (which is why making its use a deal breaker can be a significant hit to the dating pool.)
Back to the OP’s letter, it isn’t clear why Husband sleeps on the couch. Could be for lots of reasons, though I doubt it is something he is completely OK with, because if this was a long term agreement/need (like Wife being a light sleeper) they would have a better solution in place like a day bed or a freekin’ air mattress on the floor. Most couches suck. This is new or a topic the couple have not completely communicated on.
Likewise, given the wide knowledge that sex in pregnancy is safe, Husband is using a reason other than reality to explain his lack of desire. Could be he doesn’t know himself why, but fact is something is going on there he has not shared with her. Likewise, she is not directly making her needs known to him. Hannah doesn’t feel attractive to him and is sad? Tell him that! And remember that he is coming back to bed to cuddle with her. She may be sexually frustrated, but he clearly is not repulsed.
Lots of non-communication is taking place at least in the last month or so of the OPs marriage. This will (and already is) leading to dissatisfaction and friction. Maybe this is short term and they will move forward after a few unhappy days or weeks. If this communication style is the general tone of the whole marriage, they are doomed to being very unhappy long term if they do not work to rectify.
Somewhat Aside: I want to hit some of conclusions folks are making in the space left by the paucity of information in the OP’s letter. Jenna#6 why is someone that young married to an old man ( in relative terms )?
The only hard fact we have alluding to the OPs age is that she is pregnant, probably naturally since there was no backstory about getting it (speculative). So we know she is between 13 and 46. Evan speculated that she” sounds young,” but she could just be inexperienced/insecure so maybe that is why she is “young” in your mind, but you really don’t know.
Where did old man come from? Because he likes Girls Gone Wild? I checked IMDB. Last one came out in 2003. Suppose he cut his masturbating teeth on that at the age of 12-15? That would explain why he has a soft spot (ermm… hard?) for it 10 years later. He could well be early to mid-20s. She could easily be older!
Don’t mean to pick on you Jenna. Lots of folks are speculating and saying “I don’t know but maybe this is going on and therefore that” Speculatively coming to conclusions about missing facts and then using that as a basis for evaluation will naturally lead any discussion down many dirt paths. (and this same behavior within a relationship can lead to false accusations, fights and breakups!) In this discussion, we found our way to the ethics and use of porn and since most agree it is OK we are talking about the boundaries surrounding wanting partners to be more porn like. I wonder if Evan is fuming with annoyance or shaking his head and chuckling.
(EMK shakes his head and chuckles)
sarahrahrah! 75
@Hannah
I’m sorry for not responding to your concern first instead of commenting on a tangential issue.
That must be a frustrating situation you’re in. I can remember when I was pregnant at your stage and was so horny. That’s one of the fun aspects of being pregnant, isn’t it?
However, it must hurt to feel like your husband isn’t responding to you sexually. Unlike the other commenters, I would advise you to hold off on communicating your sexual frustration to your husband right away. Here’s why: your husband clearly is bonded to you if he is coming into your bed at night to cuddle with you. That is a very good sign. If he found you repulsive or something, he wouldn’t be doing that. Also, as Evan alluded to regarding watching GGW, I would tend to agree that he probably isn’t into porn much at all if he can watch that when there is much “harder” stuff available on the internet. This tells me that his sexual ideal is probably based on you since you have been his primary partner for awhile.
Given that that is the case, I want you to put yourself in his shoes for a minute. Your body has changed radically in the past six months. It is a gorgeous, juicy, fertile beautiful body, but it is not the same one that he has been conditioned to be aroused by since you guys have been together. He might have had some trouble getting his body aroused at some point and is now freaked out about that. Men will often avoid the possibility of impotence by just withdrawing because they consider it highly embarrassing and shameful.
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS GRAPHIC — BUT NOT PORNOGRAPHIC
I encourage you to do something like this: get naked, crawl into bed, pull the covers up to just under your breasts and then play with your nipples while having a nice, stress-free conversation with him. Tell him that you need to roughen them up for breastfeeding. If you notice that he gets distracted by this, ask him if he wants to help and tell him that him that licking them would be most helpful, you know, to prepare them. I can almost guarantee that this will get him turned on. If he needs a little help getting or staying aroused, manually stimulate him; turn off the lights. get on top of him and ride that bus to “O” town. It’ll probably be a quick journey. ;-)
END OF GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION
After you break the ice, this will likely help get him over his problem of having sex with you at this stage of your pregnancy. Then you can talk about other issues, how seeing him with the GGW thing made you feel, sleeping arrangements, etc. However, I really think that if you can help him get over this mental block he is having right now, he will love you all the more. Remember, you are a juicy, fertile, hot mama who has an abundance of love to give, especially to the man with whom you’ve chosen to share your life and start a family.
I wish you much joy and peace as you approach the birth of your dear little baby!
starthrower68 76
@ Evan #68,
I think I also know a bit more about my fellow readers than I ever wanted to
David T 77
@sarahrahrah 75
Wow. That is considerate, clever AND sexy! Your significant other is/will be a lucky lucky man. (This thread does have it all!)
Joe 78
@ David T: no need for walking around bowlegged. It doesn’t hurt but for a short while. But feel free to let my biases outweigh your own.
Mimi 79
Evolutionary perspective on watching porn and masturbation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26zEuWE1U4
SeeClearly 80
What an interesting thread. Pretty much everything has been covered, including (most importantly), the OP’s initial question about her H’s sexual reluctance in light of her pregnant state. So just a few things to add:
1) I have never had a problem with my partners masturbating to porn. Heck, I do it too. And with some partners I have done it with them. But one long-term partner (now an Ex) really surprised me in a good way, by sharing that he does use porn when we are not together, but he likes to find women who resemble me and have my body type. He said it made him feel more like he was masturbating to images of me, rather than strangers. I don’t even know if it’s true, but I thought it was kind of sweet of him.
2) Like most women of my generation, I go hairless. I have tried waxing (twice) but found it barbaric and needlessly painful. So I shave. One recent partner surveyed my shaved state, and casually asked if I had ever waxed or if I would consider doing so. I told him of my experience, and said I’d be happy to do it again if he came along and got his genitals waxed too. That was the last time he mentioned it. LOL (He is now and Ex, too… for unrelated reasons).
Nadia 81
Karl, I’d gladly choose sex over television. Any ol’ day of the week.
RH 82
Hey Evan I just found your site and I really like it.
But I am a bit troubled by this porn thing. Can you at least agree that a man should be sensitive to his woman’s feelings if she’s upset that he’s looking at other girl’s pussies? Personally I tell my boyfriends to keep their porn in the attic while we’re together.
I’m wondering if it would be cool with you if you were to find your girlfriend masturbating to hunky guys in a Playgirl. Maybe guys that were different looking than you, and perhaps with much bigger penises?
I don’t know maybe you honestly wouldn’t mind, it’s just been my experience that men can be incredibly hypocritical.
Evan Marc Katz 83
@RH – A man should be sensitive to his wife’s feelings. And a wife should understand that a man who looks at porn on occasion is 100% normal and that she should not feel remotely threatened.
As far as your question about my wife and a Playgirl, I couldn’t tell you how I’d react, but I’d like to think that I’m not a hypocrite. Furthermore, I think it’s pretty well established that more men turn to porn for stimulus than women, so I don’t think the two are equivalent exactly.
Laya 84
I really respect David T’s philosophy on porn and other abuses 56. It sounds like that is your contribution to making the world a better place.
Those of you interested in the impact porn has on the porn workers, watch “After the Porn”. It’s a documentary interviewing the men and women porn stars. It was depressing and sad. Many of these individuals have no skills, have come from difficult or abusive families and have little other options. They speak of how they were traumatized before entering the porn industry and then re-traumatized by their treatment during. Those that want to leave the industry have a difficult time for various reasons but one of the main one is that their past continues to haunt them. People recognize them, jobs won’t hire them, charities won’t accept their donations and their children don’t want them going to their sporting events (in case they are recognized).
Cat5 85
I was reading Dan Savage’s column this weekend, and his advice included what is, IMHO, a good answer to my question about what do you do when there are relationships issues surrounding the use of pornography, and I thought I’d share it with y’all:
“Ask your boyfriend to be discreet and limit his porn consumption to an extent where you are unlikely to uncover any evidence of it, as porn upsets you. If your new boyfriend manages to do that for you, SAD, if he’s considerate enough to cover his tracks, you should be considerate enough to turn a blind eye on those rare occasions when you do stumble over evidence that your new boyfriend watches porn – just like your old boyfriend and all your future boyfriends will.”
(Note: SAD is the acronym he used for the letter writer who called herself “Sad and Naive.”)
That seems to me to be a reasonable compromise that takes into consideration both of their feelings on the subject.
Sarah 86
I don’t think anyone has mentioned that there’s probably an innate biological component to this man’s lack of interest with his 6+ month pregnant wife. Why would a man have a biological drive to have sex with a woman who’s pregnant? In fact, he may have a very strong drive not to have sex with her because from a biological point of view. It’s not that he doesn’t love her or that she’s unattractive. Pregnant women actually are pretty attractive. People like to look at them. If a husband knows his pregnant wife wants sex and will feel ugly and unloved without it, why on earth wouldn’t he just have sex with her? It’s probably because every bone in his body is telling him “no”.
Yes, there are plenty of stories out there of men who were so turned on by their pregnant wives and couldn’t get enough sex. That’s not the norm, it’s just that people are more likely to share stories like that instead of “my husband won’t touch me”, although there are lots of stories like that too, it’s probably underrepresented.
Yeah, I know she kicked him out of bed. My interpretation was that this is because she’s in her 3rd trimester and is really uncomfortable and for whatever reason, having her own bed to fall asleep in helps. Sleeping is very difficult while pregnant and women do all sorts of things to get comfortable. I think this is what she meant when she said he understands why she doesn’t want to share a bed. She seemed fine with him coming in after she falls asleep, which seems weird, unless you consider that she, as a very pregnant lady, has developed this need to have lots of space to fall asleep.
Sarah 87
Evan, you’re normally a polite writer in a balanced and honest way, but I gotta say, this response sounded unnecessarily condescending. You start off by saying “she sounds young” and you mean that in a negative way. I don’t know, the only thing about her question that sounded young was the part where she literally said she’s young. She’s a little naiive because she doesn’t realize how common pregnancy-sex issues are. Maybe the masturbation/porn issue made her sound young, but there are plenty of not young women who would respond in the same way.
You shamed her by saying this won’t get better unless she talks with her husband like an adult about their sex problems. I didn’t get the impression that they didn’t talk about it. She said he says it’s because he’s afraid it’ll hurt the baby. I got the impression that she has made it clear to him that she still wants to have sex. Just because now, after they’ve both stated their views, she drops hints and flirts doesn’t mean they didn’t talk about it openly like adults. I see nothing wrong with what she’s doing. She’s trying to spark some desire in him and give him an opportunity, without demanding sex. It seems “adult-like” to me. She’s not pouting. She is upset, but she’s actively trying to fix this in a positive manner.
You kept telling her to “google” as if she’s stupid and has completely wasted your time. I think you could give that same response to most women who write you. There aren’t many issues that haven’t been addressed on the internet. Also, your last piece of “non-snarky” advice from the Mayo Clinic website wasn’t at all relevant to her problem. The Mayo piece addressed women who don’t want sex, are uncomfortable with their bodies, afraid they’ll hurt the baby, are tired, nauseous, physically uncomfortable, have low sex drive, are worried about childbrith. That’s the exact opposite of this woman’s problem. You googled and copy/pasted text which 100% irrelevant… really, don’t try to argue it’s relevant just because it talks about pregnant women and not wanting to have sex. The Mayo article talks about women not wanting sex. This lady’s problem is that her husband doesn’t want sex. VERY different issue. I’d consider that bit of advice an “epic fail”, especially from an advice blogger for women who very sarcastically suggested this women try googling.
I don’t know why this woman’s question got under your skin. I think you zeroed in on “woman kicks husband out of bed” and “women freaks out about porn” without giving them enough consideration. I think it’s silly when women are hurt by their husbands masturbating, but in this situation it’s a little understandable since he’s not supplementing sex, he won’t have sex with her at all right now. She didn’t explain her sleeping situation very well. I’d be surprised if her husband resented her for asking him to sleep on the couch. Most pregnant women change their sleeping arrangement in some way. If she literally can’t fall asleep without space due to advanced pregnancy, do you really think he resents giving her that space? He obviously misses her since he sneaks back in, but I don’t he resents her and her pregnancy quirks which she can’t control.
Maybe you just shouldn’t have answered her. I like your blog, but this is the worst response I’ve seen from you. It was snippy, narrow-minded, and immature (you kinda acknowledged the attitude problem with your “non-snarky” comment)… and you had the nerve to accuse her of not being “adult” enough.
Evan Marc Katz 88
@Sarah – You have your interpretation of events, which absolve the OP of any responsibility.
I have another interpretation of events. I suspect my version is closer to the truth. She doesn’t say, “Now that I’m pregnant, I like to sleep alone”. She says, “I like to sleep alone”. You’re willfully misinterpreting that to make it sound like the husband should be copacetic with this arrangement.
You can quibble with my “epic fail”, but it really doesn’t change my advice. Her husband isn’t feeling close to her because he’s sleeping alone. His excuse is “I’m afraid I’ll hurt the baby”. As a couple, she needs to educate him and puncture a hole in his made-up reason, so that they can communicate as adults about what’s really going on – the sleeping arrangements, her body changing, whatever.
Your “gotcha” email is way more snarky than anything I wrote, and I feel your criticism was far more destructive (insulting me) than constructive (helping the original poster solve her dilemma).