I’m Sensitive, Afraid of Rejection and Push Men Away
Pages: 1 2
Evan,
I wanted to see if you had any tips about modifying my own behavior, because I’m driving myself (and a progression of men) at least a little batty.
Reading your blog has been so useful to me over the last 2 months of intense dating, thank you. I try to – and often do –– successfully apply your advice. It’s been up, and down, and absolutely wonderful and then total hell. I’m 34, attractive to people who like my physical type, and I do okay – many men like me, and I like some of them back. I have the usual frustrations with bad dates, vapor trails, and the men who are just emotionally available enough to keep me around but won’t let anything progress, but I’ve learned to accept this as part of the ride.
But I’m very emotionally sensitive and naturally very defensive, and it’s killing me. When a man pulls back just a little bit – even very early on, and very possibly just in my head – I start to freak out on the inside, to write the death warrant on the non-relationship, and to become tense about the whole affair. I write “you’re obviously not interested – nice to know you” emails way too quickly, leaving men going “Wait. What?” They often stick around to work it out – I swear some of them even *like* it – but I’ve poisoned the natural progression of our discourse, and I think the long-term effects are usually negative.
I know this is bad. I logically know it’s very bad. But when I’m in the middle of an “it’s over and he doesn’t like me! I must defend myself!” attack it feels 100 percent like the only course of action. Then I write the email/leave the voice message and… instantly feel horrible. I sit in dread of the response. I suddenly see the mature, thoughtful way I could asked them what was going on with them that I didn’t take.
Do you have any mechanisms, anything at all, for heading off this behavior at the pass? I feel like a slave to my fears of rejection, and it’s causing a “let me reject you before you reject me!” nuclear reaction that slimes everything in radiation and leaves everyone, self included, emotionally flayed. I hate it.
Thank you, even if you just read this! Your blog really is the best.
Best,
Emily
Oh, Emily.
I’m about the last person you should be asking for advice on defending yourself.
I’m constantly writing long-winded, emotional, poorly-thought-out responses to the various ways that my words are minced, mangled, and misinterpreted – and every time I do, I feel a piece of my soul break away.
Being understood is tiring work.
If you consistently fly off the handle that every man in the world isn’t following your imaginary script as to how he’s supposed to act, you’re essentially writing your own unhappy ending.
Being right requires constant maintenance.
And letting everyone know that you’re right is like a full time no-paying job.
Which is the key point – there are NO REWARDS for being right.
All you do is end up alienating the people who have the potential to care for you.
Are your negative impulses “correct”? I’m betting they often are.
But if you consistently fly off the handle that every man in the world isn’t following your imaginary script as to how he’s supposed to act, you’re essentially writing your own unhappy ending.
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
84 Comments »Filed Under Communication, Dating, Letting Go, Understanding Men
Heather 1
Holy moly, is that good timing or what, Evan.
Emily could be me, in most instances. I try to give a guy a little time before I write the blow-off emails, generally 1-2 weeks of the weird behavior. Other than that though, I totally understand where she is coming from. Being rejected over and over again can really hurt, especially for us women, because try as we might, we do take some rejection personally.
I was getting way too good at writing, sorry, no thank you, please do not call/write again, best of luck emails. If I saw something that even remotely looked like a red flag, I bailed out. I’d ignored too many red flags in my life, with awful consequences, to continue repeating that crazy behavior, and so I believed in walk away, before they walk all over you.
I was even prepared to write my now-boyfriend off; I had just been given news about how my Mom’s cancer was alot worse than we’d thought, and I had just been rushed to the hospital for emergency hip replacement surgery. I thought, “yep, he’ll think this is too much drama for him, so be ready for the rejection text/email/call. It’ll come, so be ready.” And I even asked my nurse to give me another dose of morphine before I texted him, so I could just be numbed out when the rejection came!
But no, he stuck around with defensive, scared little me and has continued to stand by me. He actually feels bad for me having gone through what I’ve been through, and has been supportive and continues to remind me that he’s not here to hurt me.
I’m glad that you posted this; it’s nice to know that I’m not alone. Yes, we need to change and back off of the “REJECT!” button, absolutely, but it still is nice to know I’m not the only one out there who feels that way.
dan 2
Oh, I know this person….I used to say “No guy has the 1000 page weird rule book in your head”….and she would fire off these long e-mail missives to dudes in the early stages of dating over nothing really (a minor miscommunication / misunderstanding / slightly different expectations)…I called them ‘letter bombs.’ I think it may have to do with anxiety.
Laya 3
Emily, I feel for you as I have been there at different times in my dating life. While I was never one to send many angry, “screw you,” emails or telephone calls, I have had internal freak outs followed by fixing behavior. I usually took responsibility/blame for things gone wrong…if guy pulls away, I must have done something to turn him off. I no longer react or feel this way (with therapy and lots of reflection).
So my suggestions to you, which is what has helped me is to ride out the feelings you are really trying to avoid or preempt..in your case and most dating scenario that feeling is the horrible feeling of losing the person because he has rejected you. You preempt the feeling of rejection by rejecting him before he rejects you. This way you don’t find out if he was going to reject you…These feelings could be real or imagined but what is still triggered is fear, unworthiness etc. You don’t need to react or act on your negative feelings (meaning sending emails, being bitchy etc…) just sit on them. You face you fear as well. I’m basically reiterating what Evan has said.
The thing is when you freak out all over the guy, I found that not only did I still fear being rejected but now I know I had done something to warrant the rejection for real. Inevitably he does usually pull away, confirming my fear, which is a whole cycle of horrible feelings. It really is a brutal cycle that makes you feel weakened and less confident to go back to the harshness of dating.
Mia 4
I am very good at being pleasant around men and never doing the emotional freak outs, panicked calls, and so on, but I had to teach myself to be that way. I have 2 phones, only one of which is used for dating. When I’m feeling insecure, I’ll leave it at work over the weekend, let it die and not charge it for a couple days, or leave it in the car when I go out. I date multiple men at once and make lots of fun plans for the weekend when it’s becoming apparent that the guy is not gonna ask for a Saturday night date by Wednesday. If I freak out, it’s in the privacy of my own home or with gfs – NEVER with the guy i barely know. He is not my therapist.
The problem is, I still have no relationship to show for my sane dating behavior! A guy I was dating even commented in passing that I had been more understanding than anyone about his busy schedule, and was more sane and rational than most women. But he still didn’t want a serious relationship.
Dating advice always makes it sound like women are so emotional and pressuring with men that men will fall at your feet if you are not that way. I’m curious to hear from guys — how common is it to meet a woman who’s not pursuing or freaking out on you or trying to control you? Does a woman who’s not engaging in that bad behavior win a lot of points with you? Do you even notice?
Andrew 5
“Men do what they want, not what you want.”
There are times when the best wisdom is served briefly and succinctly.
Amanda 6
This article is perfect timing for me as well! The problem is that I don’t have emotional outbursts in normal dating scenarios but I am definitely triggered by the guy I’ve been smitten with over the past 2 years. And even though there is a good chance he is not emotionally available, I’m not sure if it’s me or him? The whole push/pull thing just seems like a good excuse for him not to move the relationship forward because he can do some pretty jerky things and then nail me when I respond with a melt down. It’s like I stay in this scenario to try to become stronger and I feel more weak than ever. The more he distances, the more I want him. It’s almost like I’m addicted to the rejection, followed by feeling like I have to ‘prove’ I can handle things. I’ve been sensitive my whole life and I HATE it about myself! I recogonize that many of my melt downs are from not feeling like I can openly communicate with him. Then I hold it in and eventually erupt into a basket case. But once he’s labeled you to be a crazy drama girl- is there any hope for a future? And if he is so quick to remind me this is my fatal flaw, why does he stick around.
Heather 7
Dan, well it could be anxiety, or it’s also what my Mom likes to call, “psychological sunburn.” Meaning, when you get sunburned, it hurts to have anything touch that burned area. And when someone touches you by accident, you yelp and pull away. Same thing with being hurt badly in relationships. If a guy does something, even inadvertently, and it bumps up against a sore spot in our hearts, we react. It takes time to heal, just like real sunburns do, and even though we treat the burn and do what we can, it can leave marks that might never go away.
For example: my ex husband was very cruel and abusive and called me stupid and abnormal, every chance he got. To this day, when I hear someone talking to their significant other and they even JOKINGLY call each other stupid, I want to vomit. I can’t even comprehend why people think this is funny, or acceptable behavior. My boyfriend once did not edit his text message to me and it looked like he was calling me an asshole. I was really upset and chewed him a new one for it. He re-read what he wrote and saw why I was so upset, and he apologized. I told him look, I have told you what I have been through. THINK before you SPEAK or TYPE. Words hurt.
You may be correct about anxiety in some instances, but mostly I’m pretty sure it’s just “psychological sunburn.”
Emily 8
Thanks so much for posting this! I actually bought “Why He Disappeared” just this last week after my last relationship ended, and it’s fortifying what I knew logically but was ignoring when I’d let myself get dangerously tense.
Great advice, and you’re absolutely right – I’m making myself appear very high maintenance indeed, despite being easy-going elsewhere.
And what you say about “being correct” now and then, you’re dead-on. I think I’m freaking out way to early to know anything, as do many of my friends, and I just had an epiphany that if I KEEP freaking out it probably means the guy is setting off alarms and I should stop seeing the gentleman. The last man I dated really was everything I was afraid he was, and I should have ended things months ago. I’m not putting my intuition into practice at the right point, and that’s screwing everything up, myself most of all.
What I’m trying to do, and it’s working so far: Early on I don’t know them well enough to make any judgements, and aside from the usual important red flags just need to enjoy their company and ignore my doubts. If they disappear/aren’t interested, really, what does it matter? They weren’t right for me, and enough men are interested that there’s no reason for me to torture myself like that. If those doubts don’t subside several dates in, then I need to face what I’m fearing and ponder if it’s a dealbreaker I’m trying to ignore.
It’s all about balancing intuition and emotional sensitivity, I think – both useful, but both really deadly if not kept in check. I didn’t have this problem to this degree when I was younger, which suggests there’s a (Confident, perhaps?) attitude I need to re-connect with, while keeping my wisdom. Dan – it’s very much anxiety! And pure, crippling insecurity.
Thanks again, Evan! You’ve really helped me stay calm and be myself from the beginning of my interaction with guys. I’m only 8 days into this round, but it’s already going quite well.
Emily 9
Oh! And heather, yay for your sweet guy! He sounds great. You’re dead on about how it’s about ignoring so many red flags in the past that it’s then easy to overreact and get out of there before they hurt you – it’s so damn hard to find that sweet spot in the middle of being too easy and being too reactive.
Happy Person 10
Dan 2: I know a LOT of people who have that 1000-page weird rule book in their heads!! It doesn’t happen just in the dating world. Thanks for the laugh!
Heatherk 11
Definitely well-timed post for my life. I feel sometimes like some street gangster who sees a gun drawn when it’s just someone taking out their cell phone.
But it can be really hard to tell – especially in the first few months – if someone is just distracted or if they’re distracted because they’re contemplating going back to an ex. It’s hard to tell if someone is inordinarily busy this month or if they’ve changed their minds about dating and are trying to hint that they would rather be just casual. Maybe after a whole month of a downshift of time spent together and more limited outings can one actually draw the conclusion that a guy has made a decision to be more casual without him actually sending me a memo that he’s changed the way he feels. But it is certainly hard to conclude that he’s changed his mind about a relationship just because he feels like hanging with his buddies for a couple of weekends or whatever. Even when a guy says he is confused it is hard to determine whether he’s just vocalizing how he feels – that he’s feeling his way through it and I just listen without drawing conclusions so he can feel safe expressing himself, or if he’s trying to convey a message that I should bail because he’s saying he’s done in not so many words.
Sometimes I feel like I would rather just put the guy out of his own confused misery and ask him if he would rather us not be together.
Sometimes I think that a lot of guys avoid women because they’re worried that if they break up with a woman they’ll have to watch her cry or maybe she’ll get angry and scream. So instead of giving the woman the courtesy to let her know that the relationship is done, a guy will do the fade-out. And unfortunately there are a lot of guys who do this so that when a good decent guy who would never break up with someone by fading out just happens to be really busy at work, he ends up paying for the ‘sins’ of other men because a woman he’s dating might think he’s fading out.
I am not interested in chasing someone who isn’t interested. It doesn’t turn me on to be with someone who isn’t really into me (I’m too much of a narcissist for that) so I sometimes wonder if there’s a way to tell guys that when you’re done – just tell me your done and it’s okay – we’ll call it a day. I’m not going to have a screaming fit because someone wants out – I’m just going to say thank you for letting me know. However, if someone is avoiding me or acting weird because they think they can’t break up with me because then I might scream at them – then there will be drama.
My ex-boyfriend said once about his days as a player (he supposedly was a reformed player when we started dating – though turns out he just got better at hiding things) that he just didn’t answer his phone too often on a girl so that she would realize that it wasn’t going to be that kind of relationship and so she would get the hint that it was a more casual and non-exclusive arrangement. He also was always warning me that if a guy isn’t answering his phone, or if he’s seeing me on a more limited basis or if he’s busy it means he’s really seeing other women and that I’m supposed to understand that I’m not the only one. He also warned me about guys who live in 2 bedroom apartments that I should know if he brings me back to his place he might actually have another women tucked in to the other bedroom at the same time. Really, he was warning me about himself – I should have known, because he always answered his phone when I called and we even lived together so he found a way to be able to hide everything without having to hint at anything.
Most men are not like that – and I really don’t buy into any of his stories because I know plenty of male friends who aren’t like that – but sometimes it can be hard to know what’s actually going on until you observe for a while and sometimes it can be very confusing.
Helen 12
Evan, when I read Emily’s letter, I felt sure that the advice you’d give her was something you’ve given in the past: “mirror his behavior.” For the record, I do think the advice you gave here is good; I would just add for Emily’s sake the effectiveness of mirroring.
Emily: If you think he’s pulling back, you pull back correspondingly (it doesn’t have to be in a confrontational way). He’ll get back in touch with you if he wants to, and if he doesn’t, you wouldn’t have wasted time or gotten embroiled in a confrontation. Spend that time doing something nice for yourself, possibly even dating others. On the other hand, if he’s attentive to you, show your appreciation for him.
Deev 13
Yep… that’s me. I totally relate to this problem. Fear of rejection. It’s just that after several failed relationships I now have this deep-seated fear that’s taken root that every relationship is going to fail and every guy is going to bail. It’s terrible – i panic when he doesn’t call or text, etc. Honestly at this point being on my own is better than trying to overcome this phobia.
Andrea 14
I don’t understand why you would be mad at a guy for not being interested. It can be disappointing, but if a guy’s not interested, it’s no reason to be pissed. It’s like being mad at gravity.
Ruby 15
After years of dating, I’ve learned that the best thing to do is to take things slowly, and to give a man some time to show you how interested he really is. Last year, I dated a man who freaked out on me, and I saw just how unattractive and self-defeating it was. Even if someone is unsure about you, or seems to be retreating, over-reacting is a sure-fire way to kill any chances of the relationship developing.
There are armies of men out there who aren’t ready for a serious relationship, or don’t want one with you, or whatever. The best thing to do is to pull back, and give the man a chance to come back or explain himself to you. If he’s a jerk and he wants out, he’ll do the slow fade. If he’s a nice guy, he’ll give you an honest explanation. If he’s a nice guy who is unsure of his feelings and needs more time, he will let you know that too. When my current boyfriend expressed his uncertainties to me early on, I wanted to freak out, but instead I listened, and gave him his space. It really did help.
Relationships with an overabundance of “drama” rarely work out well in the end. Rather than letting your insecurities take over, think of dating as YOUR chance to evaluate the man’s behavior, and make sure that he’s the type of person you would want to be with in the long term.
Mia 16
I wonder if another source of confusion here is the approach conveyed on this blog that unless a man wants to commit to you, cut him out of your life. I do see the wisdom in that. But it can be limiting. Even the best (and best looking) women are going to encounter the problem that at least 90 percent of men they meet will NOT want to commit to them.
If you feel like you have to cut out every guy who doesn’t fall In love with you from your life, well, that can be a lonely existence. If there’s an otherwise nice guy who enjoys your company
But isn’t stepping up, you shouldn’t notice too much if you’re dating lots of people and staying busy. Maybe that guy could be a great friend; maybe an occasional booty call ; maybe an acquaintance who is of some professional or social value; possibly a guy to see a ballgame with or take as your date to a special event once in awhile. I just don’t believe in having a goodbye talk unless the guy was really a jerk.
There are a lot of men who ain’t ever gonna be our husbands but still offer us something of value that we can learn from and enjoy if we just ratchet down our expectations accordingly. And continuing to see a variety of men with a variety of roles in your life is, in my opinion, a healthy way to get closer to mr. Right.
Annalise 17
@ Mia #4 – I feel the same. The last guy I was dating for four months consistently did all of Evan’s “rules” correctly. He told me often how he liked that I was so easy-going, calm, and “not crazy”. He invited me to meet his family on Easter. Yet after 4 months, he said he didn’t want to date anyone else, but didn’t want to have a girlfriend…
I told him I was not comfortable with this, and he faded out over the next few weeks, to never be heard from again.
So, Mia, I understand the frustration. There is nothing I would change about the way I acted. I am not pushing guys away, yet they appear to leave on their own. Is this one of those “there is nothing to learn” stories? Or I am being ignorant to something I am doing?
And to Emily, I believe you can change your ways. I have trained myself to become very calm and laid back. I look for girls I know who have these qualities and model myself after them. Over time, it becomes natural. Good luck!
Gina 18
Evan! Thank you SO much for posting this as it describes my behavior to a “t”! My fear of rejection caused me to say stupid things to my wonderful boyfriend of 5 months, that I almost sabatoged the relationship! Thank god he’s still hanging in their with me. I am currently in therapy to learn how to deal with my issues.
henriette 19
Sad thing is, most of my calm, thoughtful, non-freak-out girlfriends are still single whereas the high-maintenance foot-stompers I know wed years ago.
Clare 20
@ Mia, I feel exactly the same! I know there are some women who find it helpful to cut a guy out of their lives if he won’t commit when they want him to or if they are not getting exactly what they want, and this is fine if this is the approach that works for you. But I find that this doesn’t really work for me unless I am really sure I want nothing more to do with that guy.
Admittedly, this has a lot to do with gut feel, and I would never presume to prescribe this approach for someone else, but I have a big problem with cutting someone out of my life when they still care for me and I still care for them, and there is still enjoyment to be derived from the association. And I find that very often, I am able to adjust my expectations accordingly. And I find that sometimes, time does even change one’s feelings or perspective or you mature, and the relationship has a better chance. I suppose it all has to do with what makes you happy and what is right for you.
Evan, with regards to this article, I think your advice is so good I have printed it out and kept it in my desk!
Heather 21
@ Emily, yes, that “sweet spot” is very, very hard to find. I’m starting to learn to calm down around my guy, but some things are really hard to unlearn. Recently, I accidentally spilled something on my boyfriend’s dresser. I didn’t know I had done it; he found it and said there was some scented oil all over his dresser. I realized I had done it and I apologised immediately and was very sincere. I didn’t realize what “I” was doing but later he gently told me that I kept apologising over and over and looked downright panicked. He commented, “Wow, your ex really did treat you pretty badly, I can see the fear in your eyes when you apologise, like you think I’m going to smack you around for something trivial.” He is very supportive of my seeking help for those seemingly ingrained behaviors and is understanding that I don’t want to be this way. He really is a good guy and I don’t want to lose him.
@ Heatherk: you know, you sound like me and where I was, last year. I’d been reading EMK and Paige Parker’s blogs/newsletters, along with some others, and read alot of other books about dating but yet it just seemed like I couldn’t meet a guy that was pleasant, kind, and emotionally available, and not a game-player. I knew that part of it is just the area I live in; multiple articles, surveys, studies do show that my area is very difficult to date in, due to Washington DC being such a transient area, along with other reasons.
I believe you or another poster asked about how to let a guy know, when you’re catching on that a guy really is misbehaving, and you don’t want to be bitchy about it. I went through that last summer, a guy was acting very much like he was interested, followed up, made plans, called, etc, and then did a freak out after we discussed how we wanted this situation to proceed. He disappeared, and then stood me up for a date. I did not “call him out” on the disappearing for days on end, but I did call him out on the standing me up part. All I did was I said, “Hi B, listen, I need to let you know that “I” am no longer interested in continuing this. I have to be honest, disappearing and standing me up are deal-breaking behaviors. I am not angry with you but I am disappointed in your behavior. If you did not want to see me anymore, an email or a phone call would have sufficed, and that would have been that. Best of luck.” An hour later, I got a long, “I am so sorry, you are absolutely right, I effed up and you didn’t deserve that kind of behavior.” email. I did not reply to it, and kept on going. And promptly went out on a date that night with another guy.
It is like the old country song, “You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em…..” I’m just glad that I’m basically out of the dating pool and working on things with my guy.
EA 22
The over-correct:
Here’s one I’m curious about. I seem to have played it too cool. I was complimented for not pressuring, for being rational, logical, etc. All the things that my previous guy would have NEVER said about me.
Well, I got dumped because, and I quote, ‘nothing’s happening, I’m not falling in love. I feel like I am cuddling my best guy friend when we’re in bed. You’re so exactly like me that I feel like I’m dating …’ get ready for it ‘my sister!”
Yes, he literally said I was like his sister and his best guy friend. It’s been two years and he still texts me and hangs out with me occasionally, but he dates tons of women and we’re just friends.
My take is that with alcohol, you can cut it out completely if you have a problem with it and that works. With food, you still have to eat so you always have to skirt the ‘dangerous behavior.’ I find that with me, emotions are like that.
It seems like my emotions either control me completely or I have to act as though I don’t have any. And, the guy feels like you’re his buddy, not his GF and he leaves. AWESOME
Mia 23
I’m honestly surprised that Evan married his wife bc in my experience men dont value easygoing, kind, cool women. So many pursue girls that are high maintenance and high strung. She was lucky he came to the epiphany after years of dating, but after reading her guest blog a few years back about how she behaved during rheir courtship, I thought, well, thats what I already do, isn’t that common sense?
Ever since I graduated college six years ago I have not been able to find a man remotely my age who seems to value the right things in a woman. From 23-26, I dated men who were 10 plus years older bc they were the only ones who wd give me the time of day — late 30s guys. Starting last year, a flood of 40somethings came out and pursued me- a guy in a wheelchair, a guy who I wd have been fired for dating bc it was a professional conflict of interest, a married man, a man who lived in the woods in another state … These weren’t online guys, I met them in real life . I deserved better, so I thought.
So I really hunkered down to meet men within 5 years of my age and found 2 30 year olds that I dated for two months each. I know I did NOTHING wrong, but as usual could not get out of the once a week call/date phase. Like many men, they thought I was gorgeous, easygoing, intelligent, and interesting — they just couldn’t be bothered to see me more than the bare minimum. And I wonder if bc I never throw a fit about when a guy calls, and am always pleasant, they just assume they don’t have to call much.
So if I’m 28yo catch and don’t believe I should have to settle for a man at most 7 yrs older, where am I supposed to find these men that do value easy to be around women ? It seems like they don’t value that until later in life but I’m sick of being with old guys!
Karl R 24
Emily asked: (original post)
“Do you have any mechanisms, anything at all, for heading off this behavior at the pass?”
The best advice I ever heard was to rely on a three month progress report. There are going to be fluxuations in someone’s behavior on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis, but by the three month mark, it should be an exclusive relationship. And at every three month point after that, there should be noticeable progress moving forward.
I like this because it takes into account the regular ebb-and-flow of a relationship. It also takes into account that some people move faster than others. But if you look at your relationship and see no discernable difference between where it is and where it was three months ago, then you can (calmly) bring it up in a conversation.
Laya said: (#3)
“if guy pulls away, I must have done something to turn him off. I no longer react or feel this way”
Emily said: (#8)
“If they disappear/aren’t interested, really, what does it matter? They weren’t right for me, and enough men are interested that there’s no reason for me to torture myself like that.”
That’s one critical realization to prevent that kind of “freaking out”.
Most of the time, you didn’t do anything. The reason “why” doesn’t matter. You just weren’t the kind of person he (or she) was looking for. This applies equally to men and women.
Mia asked: (#4)
“how common is it to meet a woman who’s not pursuing or freaking out on you or trying to control you? Does a woman who’s not engaging in that bad behavior win a lot of points with you? Do you even notice?”
In my experience, none of my girlfriends freaked out in the manner being described. This might partly be a function of age (women in their 30s and 40s) or the type of women I am attracted to. However, I would say that freaking out is the exception, not the norm.
Amanda said: (#6)
“It’s like I stay in this scenario to try to become stronger and I feel more weak than ever. The more he distances, the more I want him.”
It sounds like you have a really bad relationship with a really desirable man.
Here’s the one thing you need to remember:
It’s a really bad relationship
He is not emotionally available.
He does some pretty jerky things.
You melt down.
You feel more weak than ever.
You do not feel like you can openly communicate with him.
You periodically erupt into a basket case.
Amanda asked: (#6)
“But once he’s labeled you to be a crazy drama girl – is there any hope for a future?”
Is that the kind of future you want for yourself?
Annalise asked: (#17)
“he said he didn’t want to date anyone else, but didn’t want to have a girlfriend…”
“Is this one of those ‘there is nothing to learn’ stories?”
Yes. There is nothing to learn from that.
EA said: (#22)
“It seems like my emotions either control me completely or I have to act as though I don’t have any.”
There is a middle ground between the two extremes.
EA said: (#22)
“And, the guy feels like you’re his buddy, not his GF and he leaves.”
You know how Evan and I recommend against pursuing raging-hot chemistry at the expense of compatability? There are some men who do the same thing.
If you date someone like this, shrug and let them go.
Michael17 25
Mia (and Clare): Reading your posts, I find myself thinking that you are female equivalent of the Nice Guy. Let me explain…
Well, you probably know that many women might keep saying how they want to meet a successful guy who is a gentleman who asks for directions and who is willing to do yoga [i.e., offensive boorish masculine traits that you complain to your friends about, scrubbed away]. Then very often when they actually date a guy like that, they’re torn. They really like him! He’s just what they say they’ve been looking for all along! Such a breath of fresh air compared to all those boors they’ve griped about in the past! Yet, still, Something Is Missing.
Well, we men say we want to meet a woman who has good looks AND who is easy-going, says what she means and does what she says, no drama, and logical. [i.e., the offensive crazy feminine traits that we complain to our friends about, scrubbed away]. And then when WE meet YOU, and we’re the ones who are torn. We really like you! You’re what we’ve been looking for all along! Such a breath of fresh air compared to those crazy chicks who frustrated the hell of us. And yet still, Something Is Missing.
I’d say what is missing is sexual polarity. Just as many women get turned on when a guy “put them in their place” from time to time, many men get turned on when a woman tests them hard for “no reason” or even when she acts a little batty from time to time.
Just some food for thought.
Helen 26
Mia 23: Men DO like easygoing women. But some of your posts have not been indicative of an easygoing attitude, so perhaps this is something you want to seriously consider working on: having the inside and outside match, so to speak. Our OP Emily, at least, knows what her nature is. That is a first step in solving relationship problems.
“I’m sick of being with old guys!”
The guys you describe as old in your post are in their late 30s. That doesn’t seem that old for a 28-year-old woman.
In other posts, you’ve compared yourself to married women who are your “friends”, calling them dogs, ugly, loudmouthed, and unfeminine; and wondering how they could be married. You have every right to think these things, but you should understand that no one would consider this an easygoing attitude.
Do you think Evan’s wife was constantly comparing herself to others like this and insulting her “friends” this way? Men do pick up on these attitudes, regardless of how you may try to hide them. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “Who you are speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what you are saying.”
As a first step, it would be helpful to make a conscious effort not to compare yourself to others. A next step might be widening your definition of what’s an acceptable age in men who are interested in you and whom you might be interested in.
Karl R 27
Mia said: (#23)
“in my experience men dont value easygoing, kind, cool women.”
That’s like men saying that women don’t value nice guys. Women do value nice. But being nice doesn’t get my foot in the door. It also isn’t the only consideration, even after I’ve gotten my foot in the door.
My first two serious girlfriends were the hardest to get along with. (They didn’t freak out, but they came with other difficulties.) After them, I discovered that it was possible to find girlfriends who were easy-going … and I wasn’t going to settle for anything less.
Mia asked: (#23)
“where am I supposed to find these men that do value easy to be around women ? It seems like they don’t value that until later in life but I’m sick of being with old guys!”
I had a comparable issue while dating. I didn’t want kids. I discovered very few women my age who felt the same way. On the other hand, I discovered that the women six or more years older than me were much more likely to meet that requirement.
If I held out for someone my age, my dating pool was so small that it was likely that I would still be single 6 to 8 years down the road (when I reached the age where the pool rapidly expanded). Or I could add those women to my dating pool immediately, and potentially cut 6 to 8 years off my search.
You will eventually be in your mid-30s. You can hold out for a man who is your age. Or you can make your search go faster. Choose the option that works for you.
Katarina Phang 28
Michael17, interesting! So in other words, men love unpredictable women, right? And a woman can capitalize on that little mystery every now and then.
I can’t agree more. Unpredictability is one power a woman has to get him all curious and intrigued about you.
Maria 29
I need a “good post” smilie for Michael 17. That’s exactly it. Without gender polarity there is no relationship, nothing for a man to want to hold on to (other than an awesome buddy). I would also add that an easygoing disposition may generate warm friendly feelings and good will, but it doesn’t engender passion.
Mia 30
Michael , I get what you’re saying. But I’m seeking a healthy relationship where the man is thrilled to be with a woman who acts in a considerate and low key manner. I’ve dated men that I got away with acting psycho with when I was younger but don’t want that anymore.
Even so, I am the furthest you could get from the stereotypical sweet nice girl — but I’ve just worked extra hard to behave like a normal, sane, feminine lady when I meet a relationship prospect. Deep down, in my natural state I’m an emotional neurotic basket case who’s high functioning — ivy league, good career, confident, yada yada.
And im a prolific dater who dates like a man in some ways — with an appreciation of quantity and variety — and in one recent four month period had a fling with a gorgeous Chilean writer who was 40 with a kid, continued a fwb thing with a 34 yo short bald guy , nailed a 20 yo college kid I met an hour ago at a concert , hooked up with a 25yo jewish ex coworker, had one date each with a middle aged guy in a wheelchair, 29yo ex frat boy, and mid 30s Asian lawyer , dated for several months a hipster, made plans for separate weekend visits with a redhead world traveling rake on a motorcycle and a handsome Indian doctor, and continued to keep in touch via email with my nerdy broke ex bf. I met all of them in real life bc I’m an active interesting person who’s up for anything.
I’d honestly prefer a relationship but have to go out with all these guys until I find one.
So even as a naturally crazy person, why would I act batty to these men who I don’t know that well? Why unleash the psycho on innocents? Huh . I have 3 dates coming up this week with guys that I don’t care about, maybe I’ll test them and act bratty and report back.
Veronica 31
@Michael17
I very much agree with the polarity between the sexes being an important thing, but it doesn’t have to take the form of me acting crazy for no reason.
I think it is possible to keep a man satisfied and still be a nice, easy going person. For example, keeping it lively in the bedroom
My current bf had a long history of dating strong, bitchy women with attitude (I suspect because his mom was one). I am a strong woman, but not bitchy in the slightest. I think it just took some time for him to realize how nice it is to date someone nice- but like I said-I find keeping it spicy in the bedroom keeps him from feeling like I am too ‘vanilla’.
henriette 32
So, from the comments I’m gathering that men find “sexual polarity” in women being unpredictable and sometimes downright psycho. Well, great.
Most of the truly bitchy women I know are married, but would I want their marriages? Not in a million years. A man who puts up with, or even enjoys, that kind of drama is simply not the one for me.
As for the original letter, well, sometimes dating does feel like a game of “chicken;” you want to let go before the other person has a chance to do so and cause you lots of pain. Whenever I start to feel this way, I try to take a deep breath, distract myself, and also think about what it is that *I* want. Rather than being so worried about HIM – is HE pulling back? Does HE no longer like me? – I force myself to consider whether or not I admire him as a person, find him interesting and kind, etc. Often, I realise that I’ve been so focused on my panic that I haven’t actually been getting to know him and his character.
AllenB 33
For me it is the gender polarity thing that I don’t get. I have had so many women like me, even fall for me . . . for a while. Then they break up because they don’t see being with me for a long time. Then they say “but I have this or that friend” probably because they feel badly for dumping me. I am pretty sure my lack of grasp of gender polarity is what I am missing and from what I see of it, I would rather be alone. I don’t want to be “tested hard for no reason” and likewise, I don’t believe in putting someone in their place unless they have earned it.
Maybe if I understand gender I can get there, but if not, I will stay the nice guy that women like but never love. I would rather that than not be true to myself.
Ruby 34
Maria #29
“an easygoing disposition may generate warm friendly feelings and good will, but it doesn’t engender passion.”
A non-easygoing disposition might also engender “drama.” Drama might be passionate, but it won’t last in the long term. You can be nice, but still have a spine, and you can have a fun, passionate relationship without the craziness. In fact, over the course of a lifetime, it’s highly preferable.
Rampiance 35
After some traumatic experiences with men and some beautiful ones, too, I felt two ways: I was mortified of getting helplessly attached and becoming the doormat I had been too often; and I was hopelessly romantic and still really enjoyed the company of men. Well, now I call myself hopefully romantic, and I also learned to stand up for myself while being kind and considerate. I used a practice that might help you, too.
The key is to find The Third Way between desire and detachment. Desire is fueled by your passionate nature, and detachment is counseled by your practical, logical nature. I put both to work at the same time in an exercise that is harrowing at first and then ultimately satisfying.
Upon getting to know a man, sometimes I’d get that obsessive feeling ~ wondering how did he feel about me, when would he call, what did his every little action mean … where would this go …. and then, what if it didn’t go, what if he never called, what if I fell for him and he ditched me, what if, what if, what if ???
That’s when I’d do this practice. I’d think of the man as fully as I could ~ all his cuteness, kindness, everything that attracted me, all the best of the futures I could imagine with him. Then I’d imagine a tragic accident that would leave me without him in my world forever … and I’d throw myself into that scene as fully as I did the previous fantasy. Crying over his dead body, imagining life going on without him, feeling the blackness and despair.
But the thing is, in every case, life did indeed go on. I couldn’t escape the fact that in my imagined scene that seemed so awful, the tragic fantasy continued afterward with me alive and actually not so very much different than my real life in the present moment. My tears poured at first, then dried. My heart wrenched terribly, then continued beating.
This practice was helpful to me because I could put my overactive imagination to work and play out scenes in depth and intensity without actual risk-in-the-flesh. I could check out the very worst of the “what ifs”. After living through the trials and coming out the other side, I felt equipped to go through the real thing and deal with whatever might happen. I found courage to face the unknown because I’d already dealt with the worst I could imagine. I’d do this as often as the terrors would arise.
In seeking The Third Way, those of us who have super-active imaginations can put them to work as relief valves instead of as nuclear reactor meltdowns.
Kathy 36
I have 3 words for this woman:
Borderline
Personality
Disorder
Look it up. Classic signs…textbook in fact. Fear of abandonment. I’ll reject you before you reject me. This cannot be solved with a quick note on how you should treat a man…it takes long, intense therapy!
Still-Looking 37
Mia – you stated, “men dont value easygoing, kind, cool women. So many pursue girls that are high maintenance and high strung. ”
Some men do pursue high maintenance, high strung women. Some guys will tolerate such traits only if the woman is extremely attractive though in my experience the infatuation is soon overcome by her demanding nature. Other men actually enjoy stress filled relationships.
I think most men, especially as they get older and wiser, are looking for easygoing, kind, cool, and fun women. Not women who are spineless and agree with everything the man says, but women who have a mind of their own yet are laid-back and sweet.
If you act batty/bratty you will likely find that men will tolerate such behavior for a very short time. They will ignore the red flags, have their fun with you, and then move on. Such behavior is tolerable for a weekend fling – not for a long term relationship. As EMK and others have mentioned so many times, the alpha male and bad boy personalities might create some initial chemistry but such men are lousy prospects for the long term. The assessment is the same for high maintenance and demanding women.
Keep us posted with the results of your experiment…
Heather 38
@ Mia:
HAHAHA!!! Your last comment about acting psycho and bratty just made me smile. I was literally telling my married girlfriend this, last year. She’d been through the dating trenches too, and she’s my sounding board and sanity check. I told her, “Maybe I just have to be psycho, check a guy’s phone, snoop in his email, act like a little bitch, just so I can meet someone. Because that’s all I see anymore, are girls who treat men badly, getting the guy. We nice girls who don’t want drama, hate drama, and would treat a guy well, get kicked to the curb.” I realize it goes both ways, as I have had guy friends say the same thing, but I have to operate from where I am, as a woman. I stopped pursuing men and I had no fewer than 3 men tell me later that at first, they thought I didn’t like them at all, because I was so “hands off.” I told one guy, “I respect a man’s space and privacy and I am not interested in being the psycho chick.” He was really impressed by that, and while we did not work out as a couple, we do remain friendly and banter some on Facebook.
I can totally understand how you feel, and where you’re coming from. Been there. You keep hanging in there and you do what you do best. I really was getting to a point where I just thought, you know what, I like me, I love me, and I am tired of the nonsense and drama I see here in the DC dating pool. I’m going to take a breather for awhile, focus on me, my Mom’s fight with cancer, and my best friend, home from a tour of duty overseas. I was really becoming OK with the thought of never finding anyone else and going on alone, and then my fella came around. You just never know who or what could happen to you.
Big hugs. You’re going to be OK.
Helen 39
Folks: it’s slightly creepy how many posts here interpret “sexual polarity” as meaning drama and slap-downs of the opposite sex.
Michael17 wrote: “I’d say what is missing is sexual polarity. Just as many women get turned on when a guy “put them in their place” from time to time, many men get turned on when a woman tests them hard for “no reason” or even when she acts a little batty from time to time.”
Say what? I don’t view a man who attempts to “put women in their place” as masculine. I view them as insecure control freaks. I also don’t like drama in men.
Speaking for myself only (but maybe some women agree): the most masculine men I know are not dramatic at all. The traits I personally find masculine is if they know how to fix things easily, enjoy outdoor activities, enjoy showing care to women, and don’t complain or gossip. The strong, quiet type with no excess drama.
The most feminine women I know are also not drama queens. They are modest and pleasant, and they move and act with grace.
Drama would only detract from masculinity and femininity in both cases. You can fully embrace your sexuality without acting batty or “putting someone in their place” – that’s indicative of discontent and egotism, which aren’t attractive traits at all. Embrace the things you enjoy – that makes you attractive.
Helen 40
Another thing: I found that Evan defined femininity himself in another post. THIS comes much closer to the truth than acting psycho or batty to attract a man:
“Being feminine isn’t defined by long hair or a curvy body or – as you falsely state – becoming some ‘submissive little doll of a woman’.
“Being feminine is about being receptive, warm, upbeat, nurturing, supportive, sexy, and confident in your own femininity.
“The great news is that you can still be smart, strong, and successful and possess ALL of these qualities.”
See? No room for drama or psycho behavior in any of this. If anything, it sounds incredibly relaxed. I really like this definition. Embodying your feminine nature is something to relax into, not something to desperately strive for.
nathan 41
“So, from the comments I’m gathering that men find “sexual polarity” in women being unpredictable and sometimes downright psycho. Well, great.”
Nope. Not me. There is nothing sexy about drama. Nothing.
Having been pegged a “nice guy” at times over the years, I think what the real issue is behind the lack of attraction to “nice” people is a lack of self confidence and authenticity. Bending over backwards to please, and not really having your own ideas, desires, etc. Overall, I actually haven’t had too difficult of a time getting dates or finding women interested enough to want a relationship with me. However, I have had periods in every relationship I have been in where I get caught up in fears of losing her or being rejected, and when that happens, my confidence goes, and so does the edge in my personality. In my view, anyone who considers themselves nice and easy going, and yet is having trouble in the relationship dept. should take a look at their level of confidence, as well as the level of pleasing behavior and excessive deference going on.
One of the main reasons why people think drama is sexy is because they know of no healthy alternatives to having passion and synergy in a relationship. Arguing, playing power games, and being petty/bitchy provide the desired heat that hooks folks, but it’s like a lot of pharmaceuticals in that the side effects are worse than the benefits provided.
Emily 42
Kathy #36:
*looks it up, as directed*
“Symptoms of BPD: People with BPD are often uncertain about their identity. As a result, their interests and values may change rapidly.
People with BPD also tend to see things in terms of extremes, such as either all good or all bad. Their views of other people may change quickly. A person who is looked up to one day may be looked down on the next day. These suddenly shifting feelings often lead to intense and unstable relationships.
Other symptoms of BPD include:
•Fear of being abandoned
•Feelings of emptiness and boredom
•Frequent displays of inappropriate anger
•Impulsiveness with money, substance abuse, sexual relationships, binge eating, or shoplifting
•Intolerance of being alone
•Repeated crises and acts of self-injury, such as wrist cutting or overdosing”
*ponders*
Nope! Armchair Diagnosis Rejected. I have very stable relationships with everyone in my life including most of my exes, (my “crazy” is insecure, never mean or nasty) I have no serious impulse issues aside from a slight Amazon addiction, I’m an INFJ who *loves* being alone, do not-self injure and never have, and have such a collection of things to do/hobbies/books/etc I have the opposite of boredom issues. If I couldn’t sleep I would. I’m just very emotionally sensitive, and after a bad marriage am too reactive to men very specifically.
I’ve also sent this to many friends who claim I’m being a bit harsh on myself/exaggerating the extent to which I’m nuts, which IS one of my bad habits – I’m big into self-flagellation, and quite good at verbalizing it.
But there’s so much great advice in this comment thread; so many ways to think about it, and it’s nice to know I’m not alone.
Heather 43
Hey Emily,
Holy crow, what happened, were you and I cloned?? You pegged it exactly, the bad marriage and being reactive to men. That’s exactly it. I agree with you, you never came across as Borderline Personality Disorder at all. I think you’ve just been through a lot, and that it’s left some marks. I think it’s great that you want to work on stuff, and I am right there with you on that.
And to the poster who talked about women who like “men who put a woman in her place from time to time” ummmm yeah, see in my book, that’s abuse. There is no reason for a guy to act like that. And if a guy I date EVER attempts that? Well, they’ll be the mayor of Dumpsville, USA, population: him. If a guy calls me on something, that is one thing. But if he even thinks he can “put me in my place”, he’s got another think coming. If I have an issue with a man, I discuss the issue. I do NOT “put a man in his place.” Good lord.
Goldie 44
Adding my voice to the chorus of those saying that “a man putting a woman in her place from time to time” is anything but sexy. Major deal-breaker, in my opinion, as it’s a pretty accurate predictor of future abuse. I’m also not sure I’d want to be with a guy whose idea of sexy is the woman acting batty from time to time. We all have enough stress in our lives already, and why anyone would be actively looking for more — in their own love life, no less — is difficult for me to understand.
Ruby 45
Kathy #36
BPD is a fairly serious condition. A friend of mine dated a woman who had it, and their relationship was very volatile. For example, she might call him at 3am in a rage and scream at him (anger issues), or suddenly decide his almost six-figure income wasn’t high enough and want to break it off, then change her mind the next day (impulsivity). Eventually, despite the intense physical attraction, he couldn’t stand it anymore and broke it off. He doesn’t have crazy chemistry with his current girlfriend, but they’ve been living together quite happily for several years now.
Ellen 46
mia @16: “There are a lot of men who ain’t ever gonna be our husbands but still offer us something of value that we can learn from and enjoy if we just ratchet down our expectations accordingly.”
So true. Why does it have to be an either/or situation always? I am still in touch with three of my past dates. We are now friends and it feels good having male friends who care about me even though we aren’t intimate sexually.
Re rejecting before you are rejected- well, that’s just immature, fearful behavior imo. Nearly all of us have done it though at one time or another, depending upon our mood. At 59, though, I have pretty great self esteem and don’t feel the need to protect myself that way emotionally.
As one male friend put it: “If your self esteem depends completely upon what another man thinks of you, that is co-dependent behavior!”
Mia 47
While I never freak out to a guys face, I may do it in the privacy of my own home when he goes, say, a week without calling.
But why do we do this to ourselves? Men generally are not worthy of this kind of agony.
I can think of 3 recent men who I thought I would marry right away. I was the perfect no-pressure yet authentic woman to them. One stood me up for our fourth date and it became clear he was not separated from his wife. The other two, it became apparent on the 9th date that there were things about their personality that were not compatible with us having a ltr, and they vanished anyway. There was a fourth man I wanted to marry when I was 23 and he dumped me abruptly after five months bc he said he could no longer be with someone only half of his race, he needed someone fullly from his culture. There had been no inkling that this was a problem in the beginning.
I bawled my eyes out over each man — and for what? I think I was more upset that I’d thought my search was finally going to end and got let down.
The more I think about it, women should not be freaking out over ANY man who we have been dating less than six months. We don’t know if he’s the right guy for us, we don’t know his issues, and we have no control over him. Women need to get out there and date dozens and dozens of guys ( hold off on sex), and when those dates are not in our presence not even THINK about the guy, and not worry about exclusivity until he’s really proven indisputable interest.
Rampiance 48
Nathan #41 says there’s nothing sexy about drama, and I agree when drama is defined as immature acting-out. There is another kind of drama which is infinitely sexy, and is considered the very essence of the polarity of the universe: Shiva-Shakti energy.
Shakti is the feminine principle, and is always in motion. You could compare it to the moving waters of the oceans or rivers, or to the wind whether in storm or gentle breezes. Shakti is our emotions, always in flux.
Shiva is the masculine principle, and is perfectly stable. This is infinite space, the depth of being, the calm mountain unaffected by storm. Shiva is our presence, the core of our being, at one with the Source.
The universe needs both: nothing would happen without both principles present. Each needs the other to feel alive.
When a woman storms, a man feels her Shakti energy. When a man stands his ground, a woman feels his Shiva energy.
A woman’s storm does not have to be destructive, and does not have to be directed at the man or directed at anyone, and it doesn’t even have to be particularly “stormy”. The most important thing is the authenticity of the emotion. Authentic emotion is sexy: it’s Shakti energy. Sometimes it’s immature and comes across as bitchy or crazy. Shakti energy refined by experience and maturity becomes delicious and succulent, truly awesome in its ability to enliven … everything.
Some men are attracted to bitchy/crazy because it seems juicy and alive. Those men are resonating at the same level of immaturity at that time.
CupOfTea 49
When I feel like that, in any situation and not only dating, what I do is write the letter/email, but then save it in drafts or don’t send it. Then leave it overnight or a few days for life to give a little perspective and I usually calm down enough to get a clear head. It helps because you get all the anxiety out by writing it down but by not sending it, you eliminate real consequences of your actions.
Also try being politely unavailable, a great term I heard someone use once to get around negative or hurtful people. There’s a great book also about being a highly sensitive person, not sure if that applies to you but it’s a different perspective on why you might feel that way.
Joe 50
I had a thought about something someone said earlier in the comments (too lazy to go back and see who). A guy who flakes out on a you after a few dates is not necessarily an indicator that he’s not looking for a serious relationship–it’s only an indicator that he’s not looking for a serious relationship with you.
Heather 51
@ Rampiance:
I’m glad you brought that insight. I wondered why guys would seem to be so attracted to women who acted like spoiled brats. I’d watch or listen to guys who have psycho girlfriends and I would just go, wait a minute, what’s wrong here? All these relationship bloggers talk about how men want a laid back woman but I just see guys dating crazy women who are not very nice to their guys. What gives?
At one point I thought to myself well, I guess if that’s what men want, well good on them, but I’m not lowering myself to that kind of level, just to have a man, and when they start whining to me about their crazy girlfriends, I’ll just sit there and laugh, and go back to reading the latest good book I got on Kindle.
My current guy hates drama. He understands that I am going through a lot right now and is very patient and understanding, but he doesn’t tolerate petty nonsense. He told me some really bad first date stories and he was starting to think that all the women around here were drama queens!
It’s nice to know that nice, laid back, calm, non abusive men DO exist out there. Y’all were getting harder to find!!!
Tonya 52
I think the core problem here is that women by nature take things way too sensitively and focus “blame” on themselves when a guy pulls away and becomes distant – sometimes its NOT ABOUT YOU..for real! I had to learn to be self aware about this though myself and stop the chase.
Women naturally want to find a problem when a guy starts to act “weird” – usually we think the problem is US. Finally I realized that hey, if this guy isn’t into me anymore, that’s fine…no dramatic goodbye note is needed, it’s his loss if he isn’t as interested like he used to be – in fact I figure more than likely he must’ve found another ‘interest” elsewhere – so why would I even want a guy who can’t make up his mind about me ?
I’ve been seeing a guy for a while. A couple weeks ago he opened up and told me he loved me and we had gotten very close at that point. The next weekend he was noticably different and growing distant – but yet not disappearing all together. I think there may be something to that whole “Rubberband” theory and I think it doesn’t just happen to men but women too. When you discover you’re getting close and intimate with someone, sometimes you freak out – and stresses in life can add to the feeling of just wanting a little breathing room.
I think my guy needed some space. In the past I probably would’ve agonized over WHAT I DID WRONG to make him distant. Did he still love me? Was he lying to me? Why is he acting this way? Probably would’ve asked something like “why are you doing this and what are you feeling?”. All things that I now realize are things that DO NOT work on men. It makes you appear clingy/needy and it then drives them further away.
Instead I’ve had to adjust my thinking patterns to the “oh well, more fish in the sea” attitude and bam….I’m out doing things, living my life – and guess what? When he does call to chat he’s dumfounded that I’m not moping in my apartment bawling my eyes out wondering why he can’t live without me. It intrigues him…..that I’m being super cool and not interrogating him.
Cue to a week later….being apologized to for distancing himself – he’s just been under a lot of stress he says – and he came stretched back and coming on as strong as ever. Because I gave him room to breath and wasn’t psycho about “where things are headed”.
susan 53
I’m afraid I agree that men like the drama in far too many cases. Although I guess it’s probably because those women are more ”difficult to catch”. The easy going, sure I’d love to see you, types probably don’t present as much of a challenge.
I also agree that the hard work chicks/drama queens do seem to find partners more easily. The reality is though that their relationships don’t last as long – certainly in my age bracket anyway. Similarly the guys who like drama don’t seem to be able to hang in there either (and I have had the pleasure of dating some of those conflict-addicts too).
As for firing off the rejection email too soon, well I also stick by the theory that if interest is not GROWING from the guy then HJNTIY!!!
Doesn’t matter who does the rejecting first, if he wants you he’ll work for it.
Nicole 54
Perhaps focusing on the positives would help create perspective. For instance, if she were a he, that kind of behavior would simply lead to complete and utter loneliness. At least she is getting out of the house and has the chance for some free dinners.
Michael17 55
IT’s funny how perspectives are taken as all or nothing.
RE my last post #25, I was NOT saying that we guys ought to go Charlie Sheen or anything. Just that we need to develop a masculine edge. In a way that goes somewhat beyond the “be a nice guy but don’t be a pushover” advice that everyone around here seems to keeps saying.
And I was NOT saying that the way for women to get a man addicted to them was to have daily crying/screaming jags or to throw fits in public or to spend hours getting ready just to go to the beach–due to you building yourself a shrine or something to honor your “devine feminine”. (That gets VERY old very VERY fast.) A little bit of feminine emotional unpredictability/occasional high-maintenance is a good thing though. As is spending time, effort, and money to look good: tights instead of gym shorts, paint your fingernails and toe-nails, wearing something a bright girly color, and so on.
Just as women don’t want to feel like “the man” or “the bad girl” (due to the guy being some sort of goody-two shoes or something) in a relationship, men don’t like to feel like “the emotional one” in a relationship either.
David T 56
What I am hearing from this is there are multiple and very different perspectives on what sorts of behavior and looks people find attractive.
@Michael17 Frankly, if a woman is going around with painted nails all the time, wearing “girly color tights” and spending money on plastic surgery, I am likely going to be very turned off.
Interestingly sometimes there are real people underneath that sort of thing, as I learned in one recent dating experience. Nevertheless, their values are generally far off from mine and such women will not fit into my life very well.
I feel something of the same way about emotional unpredictability. There are usually real people under that also, so I can put up with it to a point, but I certainly don’t desire it.
Then I read posts like Helen 39 and 40, and Nathan 41 and I see the kinds of folks who think like me. Emotional authenticity and earnestness, value in communication rather than drama; these are what I value also. I don’t think there is any happy medium that satisfies everyone. I think each person has their own types and there are multiple ways to interact.
Evan talks about behaviors and interactions that are generally effective and most likely to work, and he may have those spot on the head, but a one size fits all approach will never work for everyone.
Leesa 57
i can’t remember where i read in these comments but i think i read two women say that they thought this “rejecting guys in a volitile fashion” before they reject you is from previous marriage trauma. well, i can be added to this list. before i was married, i never behaved like this with guys, but after i went through a terrible marriage, i started doing this strange rejecting behaviour towards new potential mates. it’s like a post traumatic stress syndrome which seemed to last for quite a few years after my terrible marriage ended. i think that i had some serious unhealed emotional wounding which manifested itself in rejecting potential future mates. it really was a living nightmare. i’ve said many times since i found evan’s website that just over a year ago i had my heart broken, and cried every day for 8.5 months. it’s been about 14 months now. from that long term daily crying and alot of all over body deep tissue massage (and improving my diet emensely) it feels like it has brought me to a more emotionally stable place in my body. thanks to evan’s website and my new found emotional peace, i feel quite sure that i won’t do this rejecting behaviour in the future. now, i feel that there is no way i’m gonna get emotionally vulnerable with a guy (which happens when i get sexual with a guy) until i am fairly confident that the guy is stable, genuine and respectful and seriously wanting a long term relationship with ME. the players/charmers can say they want all this and tell me everything i want to hear to make me think they want this with me (like my heartbreaker guy did), but i think that it takes time to find out how a guy is really ticking. in other of evan’s posts i remember reading some guys saying that if they really want a long term relationship with a women, they don’t mind if they have to wait for the sexual stuff. in the past year, i’ve met a few men who have been interested in me and have done and said all the right things, but because i was still totally heart broken, i wasn’t interested in them. but it turns out that i’m still friends with some of them and i’ve seen what they are really like and i think … thank god my broken heart protected me from being vulnerable to their words and initial positive actions. i’ve seen with one guy in particular, even if he says he thinks i’m “all that” and he treats me really well, i see that he has seemlingly no self control when it comes to women in general and he blames the women for his behaviour. OMG. so even if a guy is into me and treats me well and does everything right, doesn’t mean he’s a good, stable long term partner. now i feel like i have the emotional stability to stay cool, calm and collected while i watch and listen very carefully to potential future mates, and really just have fun getting to know them (if they’re interested), without getting sexual too early and hurting only myself if they aren’t good for me in teh long term. and as i have read elsewhere on this website … alot of guys are the wrong guys – the good guys are fewer but they do exist.
Amanda (6): i’m going to tell you what i wish somebody had told me when i was involved with a guy like yours. he’s just not that into you and he hangs around because he doesn’t have anybody better on the horizon and you give him sex and probably fullfill other of is basic needs. but if he does meet somebody he wants to have sex with more than you, he will not hesitate to chase her. i’m wondering if his behaviour towards you is the only unmanagable part of his life. there is no future with this guy – at least no good quality future where you live happily ever after with him. you may endure more years of pain and suffering while you hold onto this totally unavailable, disrespecful guy. he doesn’t respect you. and you deserve respect. i think you are being triggered by him from you childhood wounding and that’s why you can’t let go. but seriously dude, i’m trying to help you out by giving you a reality check which nobody did for me when i was in that situation.
Helen 58
David T: right on. Although, full disclosure, I love painting my fingernails and toenails. Hubby, who is the rugged outdoorsy sort, doesn’t understand this at all, but he’s fine with letting me indulge myself. Meanwhile, I enjoy doing outdoor activities with him but can’t start a campfire on my own unless there’s a match or lighter. I’m no good at pitching tents either.
Maybe THAT is the real sexual polarity Michael17 means. Not a male and a female smacking each other down and doing stupid things to disturb the other person, but each having oddities or abilities that are enjoyable to oneself and a little puzzling to the other. Again, there’s no room for drama or meanness in any of this. It’s more embracing one’s abilities and peculiarities, and appreciating the others’.
David T 59
Heck Helen, that is just plain old humanity, not gender differences. There are some behaviors men express more than women on average and things woman are better at than men on average and vice versa. I learned how to gut a fish from the woman I lost my virginity to, and I also dated a woman who was as skilled if not more at house remodeling and building related tasks. People are different, no matter how similar they are in other ways, and I have often enjoyed, learned and grown through the differences between me and my dating partners. That is what I will always miss about not having someone to share my life with.
P.S. The nail polish thing was is for instance indicator rather than a judgement on all woman who paint their nails, period!
Heather 60
Leesa, I can totally understand how you feel.
Once I started reading EMK’s and Paige Parker’s blogs and other sites/blogs/books, I started becoming alot more empowered. I did send some rejection emails, but I did them because I had firm evidence that the guy was misbehaving, such as standing up for dates, disappearing, etc. I also did what another poster had suggested earlier, about writing an email and not sending it, and sat on that email for a couple of days, to make sure I was being calm, rational, not psycho. It was a real struggle, because my instinct was to shove them away before they got a chance to hurt me.
It is definitely not easy to learn new behaviors when you’ve been traumatized in such a fashion, but not having all the drama is also really nice. My current guy says that he appreciates that I am independent, don’t have any petty drama, can get along with people and not always have to whine about everything, etc.
Karl R 61
susan said: (#53)
“As for firing off the rejection email too soon, well I also stick by the theory that if interest is not GROWING from the guy then HJNTIY!!!”
People are a lot more complicated than that.
My interest in my fiancée did not slowly and steadily grow from the moment I met her until now. I had days where I had mixed feelings. I had days where I was so consumed by work and other tasks that I didn’t think about her.
It would have been easy for my fiancée to say, “His interest in me is clearly waning this week. He must not be that into me!” While she would have been accurately perceiving my normal, human inconsistency, I was still sufficiently “into her”, even at those points to continue the relationship.
If a man isn’t into you, he will show a long-term pattern of behavior supporting this. Not a one-day or one-week fluctuation in behavior.
susan said: (#53)
“Doesn’t matter who does the rejecting first, if he wants you he’ll work for it.”
I’m a firm believer that “No,” means “No.” If a woman tells me that she’s dumping me, I take her seriously. I don’t continue to “work for it” after that point. Stalkers do that. Good men don’t.
It does matter who does the dumping, particularly if one person is doing so just because they inaccurately perceived the situation.
Emily 62
Heather #43:
Heh! Perhaps we were! Seriously, it really seems like a lot of women have, like us, created a sensitive shell around them for protection, and it’s a dangerous thing. But as you’ve found, men who handle it in a constructive way are out there! I think it’s meeting them halfway, really.
Tonya #52 – I agree, learning to recognize it’s not about me is a really big and important step. That’s true of so much more than dating, really!
Michael17 63
Mia,
We only have posts to go by. So it’s easy to get an inaccurate read.
Now after reading your posts #30 and #47, I’m now wondering who you are picking to date, whether these guys are compatible with you. And so of course they don’t stick around.
Marisa 64
Well, I can’t claim to know anything about what men do or don’t want as far as drama goes, but I do know that Evan has some other posts kicking around somewhere around here that go something to the effect of “the guy who sees you only once a week for six weeks never becomes your boyfriend or your husband, so tell him thanks for the great times, but I’m looking for something serious, best of luck to you, and let him go.” I really liked that and found it incredibly helpful (as I did his advice in this post) I guess that is to say, there’s a time and a place for those kinds of “cut bait” talks/emails that are perfectly legit and not crazy, it’s just maybe not after the third date, you know? I’m terrible at dating, and doing my best to try and relate to men better, but from what I understand, for the first month or so, it’s our job to play it cool, see what he does, and date more than one person at a time–tough as it might be not to get too excited about any one special guy in particular. Then if he doesn’t step up, we are simply protecting our own hearts and time by cutting him off? I don’t know…as they say in Bill & Ted’s, “I just work here.”
Leesa 65
heather and emily
i was thinking more about my post marriage behaviour and i wanted to add this because i’m wondering if you can relate. when i was married, my husband was the super smart nerdy type which i read in another of evan’s blogs as one type of alpha male. anyways, my ex-hub’s way of disapproving of me was to withold sex and affection and criticise constantly, sometimes for hours on a given day. he was passive agressive and emotionally selfish and cruel. on paper, i’m also very smart, but not in the top 1% of world brains like him. why i didn’t walk away at the 6 month mark i do not know. i guess i hoped it would get better, i blamed myself etc. but at 5 years, i said, no way! i had my dream life of living around the world and yet i honestly felt that my life was not worth living. so when i left him, i found myself extremely attracted to totally inappropriate guys. (before i was married there’s no way in a million years i would have went near guys like these) any guy who showed me a little attention but wasn’t seriously into me, i had to have. a bit like amanda said in (6) – i was addicted to the unavailability and rejection. it was horrible. it was like they were a black hole and the force was so strong i couldn’t pull myself away from them even though i knew they were really bad for me. so i was a bit like a dog with a really tight collar around my neck … trying constantly to get it (them) off (away). that was the living nightmare part of it. the point is that i knew they were totally crap guys and i didn’t want to be with them but this unresolved wounding made my attraction so powerful. boy oh boy it was horrible and beyond rational thought.
Mia 66
Michael, your follow up post definitely clarified things, and
I’m sorry if I jumped all over you because I think I get what you’re saying. I do think women have a great gift of being more in touch with their emotions and should be sharing that side of themselves with men.
But when I express my emotions, I just do it calmly and succinctly. A man I was dating said something that upset me while we were in the car and I was flipping out on the inside, but I bit my tongue. I said, “I know I’ve been quiet for awhile now, but that’s bc I feel upset and don’t know what to say.” There was no point sharing my feelings until I had myself under control.
Another time, he didn’t call for a week. I was pleasant and normal when we finally spoke– hell, id been out with 3 other guys during that time. Later, on our next date, I shared my feelings: ” I feel disappointed that we didn’t see each other for awhile.”
From 18-25, my life was that new hbo show “Girls”– getting pumped and dumped, affairs with married older men, cheating on boring, nice bfs, tantrums when a man rejected me. I must have learned that from my mom, who was emotionally abusive and walked all over my kind, amazing dad.
And a few years ago, I cleaned up my act and began following Evans advice. It hasn’t worked for me yet, but I recently moved to a new city where my social life has really improved. I do date a huge variety of men and think its to my credit that I get pretty far in the dating process, but just haven’t met anyone who was compatible/in a place to commit.
Mia 67
I should clarify, when I used to be emotionally dramatic ( as my mom was with my dad), I would wind up with these nice pushover men like my dad. I want to break the pattern of the relationship I saw growing up and attract a man who’s my equal.
Christine 68
And what if women did the same thing:
“Women do what they want, not what men want.”
Rosy 69
Evan, kudos to you for hearing your Mum say “oral sex” and not blushing. (Or perhaps you did?)
Anyway, I like this post. I find the trouble I have is walking the right side of the line between “doing my best to make his life happy every day” and becoming his mother / tapping into my giving rather than receiving energy too much. I *think* I’ve struck the right balance but sometimes I’m not sure.
(Funnily enough, if asked to name things that would make a man a great partner, I’d include “oral sex” too! Maybe men and women aren’t from Mars and Venus quite so much as we think?)
As for all the “do men actually secretly quite like drama?” kind of stuff; I like Rori Raye’s take on this, that men *do* like women who are in touch with their emotions, just not in a way that causes lots of drama. But sometimes in the absence of a woman like this, a man would prefer a drama queen over someone who appears to be totally out of touch with her feelings all together…
Christine 70
I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing to push the “flush” button early on with guys that initially show interest, then start blowing cold. And I agree with Evan, that with these types of guys, you don’t have to do anything. The time I write “thanks, but no thanks” is with guys I know I’m not interested in or have shown qualities that I don’t want. I give guys a chance to show me who they are, but red flags are red flags and that doesn’t mean we are too sensitive or afraid of rejection, are flying off the handle or it’s wrong to want them to live up to our “script”. I’ve learned through dating what I want in a man and a relationship and have slowly defined what is right for me. Guys have to put in their share too, and if they are not ready or able to do that, they are not right for me. I’ll continue to be vulnerable, but that vulnerability doesn’t mean compromising who I am, being with a guy that isn’t that into me or doesn’t respect me enough to put in the effort, or letting that person get in the way of loving myself enough to know they are not good for me.
Goldie 71
Personally, as long as I feel safe and secure with a man, he doesn’t need to flex his muscles to show me that he’s the man in this relationship — I already know that he is. Then again, after reading this blog for two years, I’m coming to a conclusion that my friends and I are in fact different from the majority of this blog’s target audience. I guess being a tad on the geeky side, reduces the polarity of the sexes both for men and women. I’m totally cool with dating a sensitive, metrosexual guy, as long as he’s, like people on here said, not a pushover.
There is a type of “nice guy” that I cannot stand — my ex had a tendency to be that way at times — it’s when a man will agree to anything, especially coming from people outside his immediate family — friends, acquaintances, coworkers, strangers — he’ll stop at nothing to make all these people feel good. Unfortunately, this often comes at the expense of his own loved ones. I’ve come to think this isn’t as much a “nice” guy as one who wants to avoid any conflict and look good in everyone’s eyes. So in the end, it’s really about himself — he’s not as caring as he tries to look. This type of nice guy, I stay away from. But a genuinely nice guy with a spine, who has his priorities straight? Give me this man any day and I don’t care if his masculine energies are up to standards — he’s a great friend and partner and that’s all I need.
Helen 72
Rosy wrote: “I like Rori Raye’s take on this, that men *do* like women who are in touch with their emotions, just not in a way that causes lots of drama.”
Rosy, do you have a website for Rori Raye’s statement on this? Personally I haven’t seen any evidence that men like women who are “in touch with their emotions”. I’ve seen that they like women who are easygoing and manage to hold it together even in crises. Thanks.
Heather 73
@ Leesa:
I think your ex was a clone of mine. Mine was an IT supervisor for a major web-hosting company, years ago. I think he still does it, but I do not know, having made it extremely clear to him when we divorced, that further attempts by him to contact me, would result in a restraining order. Anyhow, yes, I think EMK is correct that the super-smart nerdy types are a type of alpha male. I did not understand that, when I met him. I was 25, and was so desperate for someone to love me.
When I’d see men pulling away from me, oftentimes I’d think “Aha, OK, here we go all over again, it’s just my ex all over again and guess what, I’m bailing out before I allow his behavior to get worse. I divorced because I know I deserve better than abuse, and I damn sure won’t go through it again.”
I did learn to keep those freak-outs to myself and my girlfriends, thus my goodbye emails were far less dramatic, and more like, I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is going to work, or certain recent behaviors that I’m noticing, are dealbreakers for me. Oftentimes I got no response, and that was fine, I didn’t really need one, I just wanted to be polite and let the guy know that I was no longer interested, instead of just being a coward and ignoring him.
I do believe in a couple of instances that I might have overreacted and maybe rejected a possible good guy, too soon. But, because I was trying to learn how to date properly, I figured well, better safe than sorry.
Karl R 74
Christine asked: (#68)
“And what if women did the same thing:
‘Women do what they want, not what men want.’”
They already do.
Christine said: (#70)
“that doesn’t mean we are too sensitive or afraid of rejection, are flying off the handle.”
Emily said: (original post)
“I’m very emotionally sensitive”
“I feel like a slave to my fears of rejection,”
“I start to freak out on the inside, to write the death warrant on the non-relationship, and to become tense about the whole affair. I write ‘you’re obviously not interested – nice to know you’ emails way too quickly,”
Christine,
Did you read Emily’s letter?
Christine said: (#70)
“that doesn’t mean [...] it’s wrong to want [men] to live up to our ‘script’.”
If your desire to have men follow a script ends up sabotaging every one of your relationships (which is what apparently happens to Emily), then I’d say that it’s an ineffective dating strategy.
If you have a “script”, and terrific men are routinely following that script, I don’t see a problem. Do you have a script (for the man’s behavior) that is working for you?
David T 75
@Christine 68
[I]And what if women did the same thing:
“Women do what they want, not what men want.”[/I]
I think everyone would be happier. Then it would be about two people coming together and accepting each other for who they are willingly, instead of putting themselves into a situation where they are unhappy, but put up with it just because the [I]relationship[/I]. The outward behaviors end up being the same in both scenarios. The inward attitude is different in those two cases. In the latter case, the unhappiness will eventually change the outward behaviors and/or one or both people will be miserable in it.
Communication and compromise is still a key factor in sustaining a relationship. If a change is easy, do it to please your partner. Not everything will be just so. Always both man and woman will need to accept (and maybe learn to cherish?) some of the flaws in their partner.
I believe Evan’s point is about you accepting the ‘typical’ male for who he is and what he does rather than holding out for something that is perfect in your eyes. He never said that men should not do the same. Remember, his blog is directed towards showing women what will get them into a relationship, and how to have a mindset that will keep them into it. I would not be surprised if he tells his male clients very much the same thing you posted!
Heather 76
David,
Well you do raise a good point about we women doing what we want. I think that too many of us (and I include myself here from long ago) don’t do what we want, and end up unhappy. I always did whatever I thought a guy would want, or would make him happy, and I ended up totally freaking miserable. And still get dumped anyways.
So finally, the lightbulb went on last year and I went, you know what? Screw that. I’ll do just as I like, and if a guy doesn’t like it, well I can certainly show him where the exit is. It worked beautifully. I had guys trying to sleep with me on the first date. I didn’t want to, and said so. Most disappeared after that, and I was perfectly OK with that. I figured if they were going to be immature enough to get snippy because I wouldn’t “put out” on the first date, then I didn’t want them in my life anyways. I only went out on dates with guys I WANTED to go out with. And while it was frustrating to still end up with nobody for awhile, I felt better about myself in general and didn’t lose respect for myself, or feel needy or insecure.
And it works in my relationship, too. to a degree. I don’t ask my boyfriend’s permission to do stuff, I just do it. Same with him. Now, if there’s events where we want the other person to be there, of course we ask each other, that’s a given. But I’m not tied to him, nor him to me.
It was really liberating when I realized that guys do what they want, so if they can, then I can too.
Christine 77
@ Karl 74
Yes, I have a “script”. It’s mainly guidelines for myself and what I want and need. Dating is a “getting to know” period, so I don’t expect men to comply to any “script” right off the bat. And I think guys would have and should have the same for me. It involves things I’m looking for including intimacy, commitment, consistency, balance, progression, and shared values, plus love, care, trust, and respect. I in no terms expect to find a “perfect” man, nor do I expect to be the “perfect” woman. But I do need these basic components of a healthy relationship. Seeking these things does work for me when I leave fear and other “baggage” out of the getting-to-know-each-other stage. I end up with men that are available for a long-term relationship. And it’s been a hard thing to do…I’m a recovering “unavailable man” addict! And being alone works for me too. It’s lonely and scary, but gives me a chance to work on myself and the things that would make me a better partner.
I have been dating a man that initially, for the first 4 weeks showed consistency, intimacy, care and some shared values. We like each other and spending time together and we both kept it fun and upbeat. I initiated all the communications this week, all positive and uncomplicated. But for whatever reason, he went AWOL this last week but maintained enough contact to keep me as an “option”. I’ve progressed a bit in my personal development and have been able to avoid asking myself “what’s wrong with me?” or “what did I do wrong?” Knowing what I do about him, I just think he’s not ready to move to the next step. I’ve done the FWB and not interested in that right now. So when he expressed that he was “busy” this weekend and that maybe we should try to get together next week (when it was convenient for him), I just mirrored back to him, made my plans and said I was busy next week too. No blaming or prodding or pleading. If he’s really into me he’ll let me know through his actions (making more of a concrete effort to see me). If not, I haven’t invested too much emotional time or energy and can make myself available to someone who is ready to move to the next step.
I understand what Emily has expressed. The sensitivity, the fears and the freaking out. I’ve done that too. But the sensitivity and fear and bad feelings could be a real red flag to herself that something is wrong and not in alignment with her values. Or it could just be a sign she does need to do what Evan talks about and sit back and give the guys some time, whatever time frame she is comfortable with. I don’t pretend to know. But dating and love should feel good and relationships should evolve comfortably and happily for both.
Leesa 78
i guess i’m a recovering “unavailable man” addict too christine. heather, i would pay damn good money to be a fly on the wall of my ex-husband’s new marriage. and i’d pay even more money to be a fly on the wall of that heartbreaker’s now one year relationship with the women he left me for. i wonder if they are better men with these new women because these new women are better women than i apparently was to them. my mum says that it was them and not me (as she saw their behaviour first hand in both cases) but i wasn’t perfect and i focus on what i could have done to make the relationships better. although, i think alot of women could relate if i say: no matter what i did, i couldn’t make them happy. no matter if i did what i wanted, or did what they wanted. but i like the thing people said above about mirroring, and doing what we want.
Kathleen 79
I had a really fun enjoyable date with a guy last night however during the evening he said he follows the “3 date rule.” He’s 48 and never been married…hmmmmmm…. I think Im ready to push him away based one this one little disclaimer.
kdr 80
@Kathleen #79,
What is the “3 date rule”? Is it that if he doesn’t have sex with you by the 3rd date, he’s done?
Kathleen 81
Yes!!!! KDR …Ive never had a guy say that upfront. We were discussing the difference in men and women re dating, and he said he went by the “3 date rule” and didn’t want to waste time. I said that I know many women would say a guy with a 3 date rule would probably split anyway. It ended up feeling like he was giving e an ultimatum when the date was otherwise pleasant.
David T 82
Three dates is way too soon for me, unless there has been lots of non-date interaction (long phone calls, seeing and talking to each other at church, someone you already know well some other way, etc.)
If I were in your shoes (*) I would tell him, “Hey, I never sleep with anyone until at least X dates, but if you want to go out two more times before you bail, lets, because I enjoy your company.” I have never had occasion to use that line on a woman, but I suppose it could happen. Who knows, I doubt anyone has been that blunt with him before. It might make him look at you differently, but 48 and never married is probably set in his dating patterns.
That is not a good sign either if marriage is what you want. I bet there is an anti-correlation between people who fall into bed in less than four dates and having long successful marriages.
(*) I would also be very uncomfortable, unless you wear size 11 mens or larger.
Kathleen 83
Thank you David … I had little contact with him before the first date .and it just seems like an incredibly inept thing to say to a very attractive woman ( his words!) .. who had previously been married for 20 years
Ruby 84
Kathleen
It doesn’t sound like this man’s rigid expectations for when sex should occur are serving him well. It’s also bad that he is bumbling and immature enough to disclose this to a relative stranger on the first date. Dating doesn’t need to be THAT formulaic.