Is it Wrong to Use a Younger Man for Companionship?
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I am a 46-year-old, young-at-heart, beautiful, sexy woman. I was married for 22 years and divorced 5 years ago. I love being married but realized I wasn’t with a man that made me happy. I have 2 beautiful kids, a son who is 24 and a daughter who is 21. I thought I would be happily married by now! I keep wondering what I am doing wrong. I’ve read your books, e-mails…
A year ago I met a man who is 13 yrs younger, with no job, new from NY, no money but was very persistent in becoming friends. At the time I was starting my new business and needed a roommate, so he was perfect! So I thought!
It quickly became romantic and he fell deeply in love with me and worshiped the ground I walked on. I, on the other hand, had feelings for him but nothing like that. Selfishly, I don’t want to be alone. I asked him to move out a month ago so I can get my feelings straight. I miss his companionship so severely that I catch myself crying. I know he’s not my future husband but I feel safe with him in all areas. Evan can you PLEASE help me? Thank You. –Shelly
Everybody listen up.
If you flip the genders and re-title this “Is It Wrong to Use a Younger Woman for Companionship”, this could be an email from a lonely man in his mid-40’s, post-divorce.
Objective reality is messy and grey and fraught with danger.
I am confident that if a man wrote the above email, most women would find it abhorrent that he would think of having his younger girlfriend invest her time in him, even though he knew that they were doomed in the long-run. And yet I would think that most readers are somewhat sympathetic to Shelly and can imagine how they’d feel in her situation.
This is why it’s dangerous to tar men as “players” or “users” or “liars” when they’re dating you without long-term intentions. Sometimes, even the nicest people, like Shelly, do something selfish that will have a negative impact on a romantic partner.
While it sounds nice that everyone should state his/her intentions at the beginning to avoid wasting anybody’s time, that’s far easier said than done, folks.
Which is to say that I’m not a moralist. I’m a pragmatist.
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80 Comments »Filed Under Letting Go
marymary 1
Good answer. Young people (even young men, ha) have feelings too! And so do older people.
The right thing to do isn’t usually the easy thing, but in the long run it does save a truckload of trouble.
Grace Pamer 2
Yep, you’ve made the break now keep it that way. If you go back he’ll think you really love him and can’t live without him which is not the case. He’ll then have a deeper belief on your long term relationship whereas you will know it’s not going to happen. That will be an absolute heart breaker further down the road for him and one which could very well damage him for years to come… so don’t do it.
As such its time to start again in finding love. Better to not waste time ever on anything which you know in your heart isn’t going to work. It only wastes your time and your partners.
So go it alone and be confident in how much you have going for you. You will find someone you really love and who makes you happy again.
Karmic Equation 3
Wow. Evan, you must be psychic, too. You sure you were writing to Shelly and not me? LOL. I was just wrestling with these feelings of loneliness and regret last night and shed some sad tears. I knew I did the right thing, but I still miss my explay-ah bf. The ethical reason I kept telling myself to stay away was that he’ll want to be a father someday and I’m past my child-bearing years. Even if he and I worked through our trust issues, nature would have trumped that eventually. And we would have been that much more attached and would have hurt that much more to let go.
Your advice came at just the right time to help me keep my resolve. Even though the advice was to someone else, it felt like it was directed to me. Thank you.
Ruby 4
Since the OP met this man a year ago, it sounds like she was with him for about 10 months or so, not an insubstantial amount of time. The biggest difference between men and women in this regard, is that women do tend to bond with someone after that much time, even if the person isn’t really right. A man in the same situation might not. I think that’s the main reason why women tend to get more upset with men in these situations if the genders were reversed.
My only comment would be that the OP should be certain that she’s not rejecting him because she feels that the age difference is inappropriate. It’s big, but it’s not untenable. If that’s not the case, then Shelly needs to get out there, date, make new friends, so that she’s not so lonely that she spends months relying on someone who really isn’t right for her. It could also be that she’s using this guy because he is “safe”, and it’s a way of avoiding the possibility of getting hurt by someone she could actually fall in love with. It’s not uncommon for someone to choose the wrong person as a way of avoiding commitment.
Steve 5
Everybody listen up.
If you flip the genders and re-title this “Is It Wrong to Use a Younger Woman for Companionship”, this could be an email from a lonely man in his mid-40’s, post-divorce.
I am confident that if a man wrote the above email, most women would find it abhorrent that he would think of having his younger girlfriend invest her time in him, even though he knew that they were doomed in the long-run. And yet I would think that most readers are somewhat sympathetic to Shelly and can imagine how they’d feel in her situation.
Thank You, Evan.
I get so turned off by how women, as a group, are completely blind to their own double standards.
The Kathy Griffin incident with Anderson Cooper on New Years Eve was a good example. If a male comedian did that to female journalist, his career would be over, even if it was an orchestrated gag ( which I am sure the Griffin thing was ). Yet, hardly a peep from anyone.
Lily2 6
It’s true, the harder choice is usually the best one. At the end of the day, it’s with her integrity that she will find the strength to stay away. As a mother, it’s easier to accomplish, because we’ve been doing this for our children by heart everyday(hopefully). That is, putting the needs of our child’s’ development over our own immediate pleasures. Otherwise, she is cheating him and herself, out of what they both ultimately deserve, a partnership based on wholeness vs. emptiness.
marymary 7
Erm steve
so far everyone, though admittedly it,s early, has agreed that the OP can,t have her cake and eat it.
and now it,s my turn to make a gross generalisation. few men would find it questionable for a man to be dating someone thirteen years younger.
i don,t think the age gap is a big deal, esp when the younger party is over thirty. I latched onto the fact that she said she didn,t feel the same way about him as he did her.
Jackie Holness 8
Still kudos to this woman for “flipping the script!”
JustMe 9
It is always wrong to use other people.
Sheba Wheeler 10
Incredibly insightful article, given a specific situation I’ve been coping with recently. I truly believe Evan nailed this one and highly suggest you read it no matter what your relationship status is because I believe it talks about the complexity of the human condition, the selfish mistakes we sometimes make, and the difficulty inherent in making ethical choices where someone will be hurt no matter what you do, but MUST anyway. Here’s what Evan has to say: “Objective reality is messy and grey and fraught with danger. What’s right for you is not necessarily what’s right for him. What’s right for him is not necessarily what’s right for you. All relationships are about navigating that space between those two realms with a measure of integrity.” Thank you Evan, as you helped me get that much closer acceptance in my own current grieving process.
Angie 11
I think this goes twofold:
I don’t know that Shelly is acted without ethics if she is upfront with her level of feelings and has clearly communicated these feelings to this man she is seeing. It does sound very much like a delayed rebound, but considering that she has been with her ex-husband at least 25 years (judging from the 24 year old son) and that her ex was her romantic partner for her entire adult life, I’m not surprised it took 5 years to delay.
Shelly, have you acknowledged that your feelings may be because you are finally rebounding? If so, perhaps it is time to move along. If you are holding back true feelings because you are actually confused about the age gap and his unemployment status, etc, then perhaps you need to look at yourself. But, if you know you don’t want a relationship with someone, it is unfair to allow them to love you while you know you are using them. I’d feel differently if you were both just “having fun”, but I think you know that it is important to have fun and distract yourself, but not at the expense of others.
Karl R 12
JustMe said: (#9)
“It is always wrong to use other people.”
That’s a simple rule which doesn’t address the complexity of actual relationship.
I know a couple, both in their mid-50s, both attractive, who have been dating for about 5 years. She likes him as a friend and sex partner, she enjoys his company, but she has no interest in ever getting married. They don’t live together.
He would be interested in a more serious relationship with her, but he is aware that it’s not going to happen. Furthermore, he’s not sure that a more serious relationship would be a good idea for him. (He’s been divorced 5 times.) Therefore, he understands that this relationship won’t become more serious, and he sufficiently happy with the way it is to stay in it.
Is it wrong for two adults to make the conscious, informed decision to remain in this kind of relationship?
Shelly said: (original post)
“I thought I would be happily married by now!”
“I know he’s not my future husband”
As long as Shelly informed her boyfriend of this, she has met her ethical obligation.
However, for the reasons Shelly articulated, I think it’s in her best interest to break things off permanently. She wants to be happily married (sooner instead of later), and this 33 year old isn’t getting her any closer to that goal.
Evan said: (original post)
“What’s right for you is not necessarily what’s right for him.
What’s right for him is not necessarily what’s right for you.”
I agree with this. However, we don’t know what the boyfriend’s goals are. Therefore, I can’t say what the best course of action for him is. In most of the scenarios I can envision, I would think his best choice would be to break things off and move on. But I can envision a few scenarios where he might reasonably choose to stay with her for a period of time.
Shelly,
I agree with Evan’s recommendation to cut things off with your boyfriend entirely. This has nothing to do with what’s best for him. Based on your stated goals, it’s what’s best for you.
Steve 13
@Marymary, post #7
I agree with you that the age gap isn’t a big deal. I don’t think it was/is a problem for anyone, regardless of gender. The problem is that the OP is using a guy to keep from feeling lonely, when she knows there is no future for the relationship and the guy loves her.
Steve 14
@ Jackie Holnes, post #8
Why give kudos to a woman doing something wrong, just because she is a woman. No disrespect, but it doesn’t make your level of ethics/character look good.
Jenna 15
Wow, poor little you! Middle aged and having some great guy fall for you who’s way younger! I don’t have much sympathy – I’m in my late 20′s without the baggage of divorce like you and would kill to have some great young guy fall in love with me. Instead a lot of what I get is selfish people like you who try to string me along for company and other agendas. At least when I reject someone it’s after only a couple dates – I go to my friends for companionship and don’t string along men who are really into me. Ugh.
marymary 16
Jenna
the OP,s situation has no bearing on yours. If anything you should be glad that a middle aged woman can get a man who loves her. it means you can too, really you can!
Kathleen 17
Thanks Evan for this great topic.
I think with proximity romance can bloom when that wasn’t the original plan. This woman didn’t seem to target this guy and mislead him. I agree with Mary Mary #7 that the age difference is not relevant.
Karl 12 your post is thoughtful and a compassionate point of view.
I understand how this evolved. I was married and divorced for the same time frames and until recently avoided serious relationships. I was told it would take about 5 years to transition after a 20 year marriage so perhaps this has been her path too. Sometimes people in the midst of this may not be clear of their long term intentions when they first get involved
AllenB 18
@Karl #12 You have it exactly right. As long as both parties are communicating, it is entirely on each individual to do what is right for them.
@Angie #11 In most places you appear to agree with Karl, but you did use these words:
if you know you don’t want a relationship with someone, it is unfair to allow them to love you while you know you are using them
No one “allows” or “makes” someone love them. They do that on their own. If for selfish reasons they are given misleading words or clearly misleading actions that become part of the basis for their feelings, then an ethical line is crossed.
JB 19
@ Jenna #15 “Middle aged and having some great guy fall for you who’s way younger!”
That’s funny because not one person addressed the fact that this “great guy” 13 yrs her junior has NO JOB & NO MONEY as the OP said herself. So how “great” can he be for anyone? I’m sure he’s a gorgeous ripped young hunk though?
I’m pretty sure if I put that in my Match profile there’s not too many women of any age that would think I’m such a great catch they wouldn’t hesitate to return my email let alone let me move into their house no matter what I looked like.
Now thanks to the OP our great “younger” guy has NO JOB, NO MONEY, and……..NO PLACE TO LIVE.
Zann 20
I agree with Evan’s assertion that Shelly is doing the right thing by breaking this relationship off completely. But not so much because of the age difference, but because she admits she’s using the guy. I know Evan’s point is to emphasize that both genders are capable of being selfish, ignoring highly visible red flags to satisfy immediate desires or by hoping against hope that things will change. As JustMe (#9) said, it’s wrong to use people, period. And although Karl R makes some very good points, I (respectfully) disagree with his assertion that it’s over-simplifying to say this “simple rule” doesn’t address the complexities of relationships. People justify disrespectful or self-serving behavior all the time, including me. But some things really ARE that uncomplicated — it’s wrong to knowingly use people, whether the relationship is with a friend, a relative, lover, spouse…or your hairstylist. You know it when you’re doing it, no matter what you tell yourself. And if you know it, the right thing to do is to stop it.
Shelly did the right thing, and I think she knows this but just needed some affirmation. What I took away from this was Evan’s acknowledgement that even when it’s the absolutely right thing to do, it’s likely to still be painful for a while, you’ll miss the person and begin to question your decision. The key thing is to end it completely, without keeping it alive with “just friends” or staying in touch, one more for the road, etc. That’s just prolonging the inevitable.
Ruby 21
JB #19
“That’s funny because not one person addressed the fact that this “great guy” 13 yrs her junior has NO JOB & NO MONEY as the OP said herself. So how “great” can he be for anyone?”
I thought about that too, but Shelly describes him this way when he became her roommate “a year ago.” Hopefully, he’s gotten a job in that time, although it’s true that he probably still isn’t that financially stable yet. But sure, that could be another reason she doesn’t see him as husband material.
Seems to me that the big issue is Shelly’s feelings of loneliness, which got her into the situation she’s in now, one of desperation. If she’s sure her guy isn’t right for her, she needs to work on that first and foremost.
Kathleen 22
Regarding victims…
When I read Jenna # 15 post I imagined her to be someone who is very bitter and has a victim mentality.
Zann # 20 Who is to say that this guy is a helpless victim and is being used He’s an adult in his 30S Was this relationship providing no benefit or use to him? Had this guy been involved with women before who would take care of him since he had no money or job? Perhaps the relationship was mutually beneficial to both? Did he clarify upfront with her what his expectations of the relationship were?
From my recent experience I know there are a segment of guys out there who hit on attractive successful recently divorced women. While these women are branded as “cougar” many of these guys are the hunters.
Seems to me the OP gained clarity and did what was right for her ( and possibly him) even though its painful.
daphne 23
Why is she so sure that he’s not her future husband ? I’m a bit confused about her certainty about what the future husband will be like. If this guy is so great, is it certain that he won’t grow on her ?
Jenna 24
Kathleen, who are you to say that about me? I’m a high quality girl and simply get frustrated when people act carelessly with the feelings of others, since that has been done to me many times. By the time I do get into a relationship I will have to contend with the fact that my heart has been needlessly bruised many times by people who may have known upfront that I was nothing more than their good time girl but couldn’t be botherEd to say they were not looking for anything real with me. This behavior is vile no matter what the gender. I don’t consider myself a victim because I have turned down many men myself, but it was always at the front end — 3 dates max– and I wasn’t keeping them on the back burner. I feel that integrity is extremely important in these matters.
Karl R 25
Zann said: (#20)
“it’s wrong to knowingly use people, whether the relationship is with a friend, a relative, lover, spouse … or your hairstylist.”
I would say my hairstylist and I are using each other. I get better hair. My hairstylist gets money. I’m not about to give my hairstylist money without getting something in return. My hairstylist isn’t about to cut my hair for free.
Unless you’re a complete oddity, you’re okay with using (and being used by) your hairstylist in the exact same way.
Everybody feels this system is reasonable, because all the participants understand the cost they pay (time, effort, money, etc) and the benefit they receive (a haircut, money, etc).
A friends-with-benefits relationship is based on the same understanding. Two people understand the benefits, risks and costs of the relationship. If either person feels the risks and costs outweigh the benefits, they terminate the relationship.
If the 33 year old has been informed of how Shelly feels and still feels the situation works for him, where’s the problem?
Doesn’t he have the right to make an informed decision whether the relationship works for him? He’s in his thirties, not his teens.
justme 26
Karl R (12).
I would suggest that your friends are happy with the relationship they have and not using someone. She isn’t’ sleeping with him while she knows that there isn’t any future and that he hopes for more while he keeps hanging around in the hopes that someday . . .
If I am feeling lonely and call up the guy who’s always had a crush on me so he can be my ego boost and be there in a boyfriend capacity while I know we have no future and that I am just waiting for someone else to come along . . . that seems like I am using.
If I have a conversation and say, “this is where I am, this is where I am not going, what do you think”. . . .at least it gives him the option. But I still think its low.
m 27
*shakes head*
You can’t “flip genders” without context.
Aisling 28
@Jenna#24: I know how you feel.. When I was in my 20s I couldn’t understand how some of those dried-up middle aged women had more action than I did. But as another poster posited, this has nothing to do with you….or me. I honestly do not think that the original poster is taking a guy that would have been good for you. He doesn’t sound like he has too terribly much on the ball.
I get some of the same kinds of feelings when men my age, early 50s, who are in shape and have their acts together, choose to date women way younger. It is easy to take this kind of thing personally. I try not to, because it doesn’t get me anywhere. After all, if they were not dating the younger women, I am not so sure that they would be dating me. It is what it is.
starthrower68 29
Again I’m the oddball. I would not date a guy that much younger.
Cat5 30
Is it wrong to use a younger man for companionship? Depends. It is wrong to use people. A good/decent person does not use people. People of questionable/sketchy character use people. Do you want to behave in a good/decent manner? Or a questionable/sketchy manner? It’s all up to you, and what you can live with.
IMO Shelly did the right thing by cutting him loose. She treated him with kindness and caring, which is how she (and most people) would like to be treated if the situation were reversed. That is the good/decent thing to do.
She is probably just feeling lonely and a little scared right now. He is known entity, comfortable, and is in love with her. With him she would get her emotional (ego boost), financial (roommate paying some portion of the bills), and physical (sex) needs met.
I, for one, hope that she sticks to her guns and does not contact him so that he can move forward with his life, find someone he is in love with and who is in love with him, and wants the same things he does. And, guess what…by doing so she can also move forward, find someone she is in love with and who is in love with her, and who wants the same things she does…all without using and hurting another person.
Angie 31
Actually, something I do want to quickly add. I had recently come across Sternberg’s triangular theory of love:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love
Shelly, it does sound like you and your roommate(?) are experiencing “Romantic Love”, and the only thing keeping you from “Consummate Love” (that thing people who get married have) is commitment from you. If you are super attracted to this guy, you feel he is your best friend, you are sad and lonely without him, why don’t you want him to be your “future husband”?
Are finances an issue? If he this exact guy, but 43 and a regular salary, would you be 100% in? The host of “Tough Love” (that Vh1 dating show) said to be careful about salary expectations b/c the economy has been rough on everyone. If this is a lazy guy who refuses to do any work (like, seriously, won’t work retail or starbucks just to make ends meet, then I hear you, but that’s laziness and a lack of ambition, not just being unemployed by circumstance).
sarahrahrah! 32
@ Karl R – #25
I’m with you on this one in terms of the idea of “using.” I agree that every thing is a negotiated exchange and the key is that both parties are upfront and are not trying to mislead the other.
As far as actual advice goes, I think EMK hit the nail on the head again. She knows this is not longterm, but doesn’t want to bite the bullet. I’ll bet a man 13 years younger is just as difficult for you to give up as it is for a man having to give up a woman 13 years younger! Be strong, yet gentle with yourself, OP. :)
Goldie 33
@ JB #19: “Now thanks to the OP our great “younger” guy has NO JOB, NO MONEY, and……..NO PLACE TO LIVE.”
That’s an interesting assumption. Why do you think that OP supported this guy for a year, and all that year the guy didn’t bother to get off his butt and find a job? He didn’t have a job originally because he was new in town.
@ Jenna #15: “I’m in my late 20′s without the baggage of divorce like you…”
It’s all perception. What’s baggage to you, is life experience to me. Either way, what I know for my situation is that, if I ruled out divorced people as damaged goods, that would shrink my dating pool by 99.9%. I’m sure your situation is different, being a high-quality girl that you are. Me and my baggage, on the other hand, are open to a wide range of different options (when I’m looking, which right now I’m not).
Generally, I think I agree with Karl, #25. I get the feeling that it was a FWB-like arrangement from the start – they moved in together, not because he was in love with her and wanted a family and kids, but because he was low on cash and needed a roommate. When she saw that he’d developed feelings, and she hadn’t, she ended things. I do not see anything unethical with anything any of them did. Agree that she should go no-contact and start dating again to get her mind off this guy.
@ Starthrower – I’m with you. I’d be leery of dating a much younger guy, simply because eventually, he’ll want a family and kids of his own, and where would that leave me? I’ve seen these relationships work, though. I knew a happily married couple where the wife was 17 years older. But she kept having babies way in her 40s, which is not something I want to do.
Kathleen 34
Karl R 25 and Sarah 32 Thanks for a voice of reason!
I also don’t judge this woman harshly as some have because she has been married for decades. She may have the dating experience similar to a 20 year old. Its daunting to have spent half your life with one man then face the unknown of the dating world when everything has changed so much. She’s finding her way.
Thats why Evans resources and advice are so valuable to a woman who finds herself single at midlife.
If you are in your late 20s and are angry because guys are using and mistreating you its your own responsibility. You teach people how to treat you and thats what I have learnt from Evans book and site. He’s makes it easy if you are open enough to stop blaming others and learn from it.
Emily 35
@Angie – THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING!
“ If you are super attracted to this guy, you feel he is your best friend, you are sad and lonely without him, why don’t you want him to be your “future husband”?
Are finances an issue? If he this exact guy, but 43 and a regular salary, would you be 100% in?”
I dated a man for 16 years. He would have been all in if I had met certain criteria.
I don’t quite understand the value of these criteria if they will satisfy your logical mind but not your heart.
Aren’t we always told to ditch the list?
Cat5 36
Karl R. @#25 said: “I would say my hairstylist and I are using each other. I get better hair. My hairstylist gets money. I’m not about to give my hairstylist money without getting something in return. My hairstylist isn’t about to cut my hair for free.”
I’m pretty sure that is what is known as a contractual relationship, which, generally speaking, involves an offer, acceptance of the offer, valid consideration, and a meeting of the minds. IMO, that’s quite a bit different than the nature of a romantic relationship.
However, if we apply that analysis to the situation Evan describes, then even if Shelly told him how she felt and he accepted it and stayed, there is no meeting of the minds. Because, let’s face it, he would agree because he’s hoping she’ll eventuall come to love him and want the same relationship as he does.
At least that’s what I’ve garnered from Evan’s advice over the years to many women. He wouldn’t suggest that a woman stay in this situation type of situation hoping her boyfriend will eventually come to love her, so would his advice to a man be different? Are men and women really that different? Hmmmm…now that is food for thought…Could men handle being in love with a woman who doesn’t want a future or to move the relationship forward? Would men be okay with that? Being use for some else’s emotional, economic, physical benefit without the relationship moving forward (assuming arguendo that he wants it to move forward)? Or do men if think like that…oh she’s my girlfriend, she may say that now, but she’ll change her mind once she realized how wonderful I am? Do men even care? Or are men just happy with being together now?
(Disclaimer: This is not a economic/social/sexual-gender/political statement of any kind or meant to imply I have an opinion either way. Just asking a few questions and hoping for some insightful and meaningful responses.)
Some other guy 37
I see talk about “using”, as if getting you’re using somebody by gaining some benefit out of the relationship; this muddles the word to be non-useful. Karl is not using his hairdresser any more than I’m using Verizon in my relationship with my cellphone.
Using somebody is taking advantage of them, and that doesn’t have to mean overt mistreatment or even deception.
If the guy you’re dating is totally seriously into you, hoping for a future that you’re sure is not to be, it’s using him to have a friends-with-benefits type comfortable relationship even if you’re totally clear about your intentions.
Deep down, you know the guy is secretly hoping to win you over — no matter what he claims — and it plays on his weakness to string him along. That’s using him.
I’ve been on both ends of that equation, and as hard as it is to say, the kindest thing to do is to crush all hope of a future so that they have a fighting chance at moving on.
Girl in the Midwest 38
My guess is that the guy feels like having some of Shelly is better than not having her at all. A likely situation (in my opinion and experience, of course) is that he was staying with her for her financial resources and she stayed with him for the emotional support. He brings youth and companionship to the table and she brings money to the table.
It’s pretty similar to the case of older rich man and younger woman. Personally, I don’t think the true nature of men and women are that different. Once people start to have money and other resources, we all want to exchange youth (or an easy-going personality) with it. In very general terms, I believe that once women attain wealth and resources, they start acting like “men”. Ie I read that as women become more economically independent, they cheat more (or get caught cheating more). (I’m not judging, I’m just stating my point of view)
Well I know at least I feel that way. I.e. when I was looking for a boyfriend, I would pick cute over rich (everything else held equal, and assuming that he were industrious and had a good work ethic, even if it wasn’t a lucrative career). Because, hey, I can make my own money! That seems like the thought process a guy in his late 20s might have…
@ Jenna and Aisling:
I understand how you guys feel. I used to think like that but not anymore. Like JB pointed out, you just know that he is a lot younger than Shelly. When we hear questions sent into relationship websites, we only see part of the picture. Maybe there is something else about this younger guy that makes him very unappealing to women his own age. So even if you were to meet him, you wouldn’t date him.
Karl R 39
Cat5 asked: (#36)
“Could men handle being in love with a woman who doesn’t want a future or to move the relationship forward? Would men be okay with that?”
It depends on the man. It depends on what he wants. We haven’t been informed of what he wants. (Shelly might not even know what he wants.)
That’s one reason that I’ve offered no advice based on what he wants. I can’t intelligently offer advice based on a guess about what he wants.
Goldie said: (#33)
“I’d be leery of dating a much younger guy, simply because eventually, he’ll want a family and kids of his own, and where would that leave me?”
When I was in my thirties, I would have told you that I didn’t ever want kids. I would have told you the same thing in my twenties. And I’ll tell you the exact same thing now (in my forties).
You believe me when I say that I don’t want kids. Trust that you can equally believe younger men who firmly feel the same way. They’ve had plenty of time to consider the idea.
If Shelly’s boyfriend wanted kids, that’s an excellent reason for her to break up with him. It would eventually prevent the relationship from working out.
Cat5 said: (#36)
“even if Shelly told him how she felt and he accepted it and stayed, there is no meeting of the minds. Because, let’s face it, he would agree because he’s hoping she’ll eventuall come to love him and want the same relationship as he does.”
When I was in my thirties, I began a relationship with an older woman who was certain that I was not her future husband. (She was fairly certain that she wasn’t ever getting married again, but more certain about me than someone else.)
I wanted to get married eventually, but I didn’t have any particular timeline (unlike Shelly) or deadline (unlike people who want kids). My only deadline was the one that occurs when I die, so I had some freedom about how I chose to spend the intervening time.
We started the relationship because we enjoyed the sex, and we enjoyed the companionship (just like Shelly). I knew up front that dating this woman was getting me no closer to my goal of getting married. It would most likely slow down that process. I had no expectation that my girlfriend would ever change her mind. If someone had suggested that I held that false hope, I would have laughed in their face.
I’m one of the most rational, pragmatic individuals on this forum. But I found a reason to stay in a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere.
I was having fun.
It was the best relationship that I’d had in years. It had almost all the best points of my previous best relationship, without any of the downsides that came along with that particular relationship. I was enjoying that relationship immensely.
Therefore, I made the choice that I wasn’t so focused on my goal of getting married that I was going to stop enjoying the journey. I decided to take the scenic detour, fully realizing that I might delay reaching my goal by weeks, or months or even years.
Cat5 asked: (#36)
“Or are men just happy with being together now?”
I believe mend -and- women are capable of choosing that they’re happy with just being together now. Some of those men and women will become infatuated, get hurt when the relationship ends, and learn something valuable about themselves. Some of my best decisions in my 30s came from the mistakes I made in my 20s.
I see no reason Shelly (or that girlfriend of mine, or a 46 year old man) should tell us that we don’t have the right to make that decision for ourselves. We’re adults.
some other guy said: (#37)
“Deep down, you know the guy is secretly hoping to win you over — no matter what he claims”
I always find it highly offensive when people claim to know what I secretly want. They aren’t capable of reading my mind. If my older girlfriend had lied to me and prevented me from making an informed decision, then she would have been in the wrong. If I had lied to that girlfriend and prevented her from making an informed decision (which is what you seem to be assuming happened with Shelly), then I would have been in the wrong.
It doesn’t matter who is younger/older. It doesn’t matter who is male/female. It absolutely matters if someone intentionally deceived their partner.
some other guy said: (#37)
“I’ve been on both ends of that equation, and as hard as it is to say, the kindest thing to do is to crush all hope of a future so that they have a fighting chance at moving on.”
I have also been on both ends of this equation. I’ve always believed that it was my responsibility to leave any situation that didn’t benefit me. It was also my responsibility to provide my partner enough information so she could decide whether the situation benefited her.
Questions for all of the women:
How do you feel if an older man decides he knows what you secretly think?
How do you feel when an older man decides he knows what you really want (contrary to what you say you want)?
How do you feel when an older man decides he knows what’s best for you?
How do you feel when an older man decides to force you to move on (from a relationship, job or other situation) for your own good, when you would rather stay put?
To me, it seems rather presumptuous of the older man. It seems equally presumptuous regardless of whether the person doing the presuming is older, younger, male or female.
Cat5 asked: (#36)
“[Evan] wouldn’t suggest that a woman stay in this situation type of situation hoping her boyfriend will eventually come to love her, so would his advice to a man be different?”
Evan and I give advice based upon who asked the question. Evan pointed out that what’s right for Shelly is not necessarily what’s right for her boyfriend. The 33-year-old isn’t Shelly’s future husband, so she needs to do what’s right for her.
If the boyfriend wrote in, I’d point out that she doesn’t see him as husband material, so he needs to do what’s right for him. If he has fallen in love with a woman who only sees him as a source of companionship & sex, he needs to break things off entirely and find a woman who can give him what he wants. If he wants to get married and start a family, I’d give the same advice. If he’s just looking for some fun until he becomes established in his career, I’d encourage him to disclose this intent to his partner.
And if he were to point out that my older girlfriend changed her mind and married me, I’d laugh in his face for foolishly pinning his expectations on my unlikely marriage. I based my actions on her words* until she explicitly stated that she’d changed her mind.
* For those of you who are confused about whether you should believe your partner’s words or actions: you believe the one that’s giving you the least optimistic message … until the actions and words match.
Ruby 40
Girl in the Midwest #38
” A likely situation (in my opinion and experience, of course) is that he was staying with her for her financial resources and she stayed with him for the emotional support.”
I’m not sure that I agree with this. As Shelly says, “At the time I was starting my new business and needed a roommate…” My guess is that if she was that well-off, she wouldn’t have needed a roommate to help with expenses. There’s no indication here that he was freeloading off of her. Shelly also describes herself as a “young-at-heart, beautiful, sexy woman.” The younger guy might not have imagined that he’d fall for an older woman, but after spending time with her, he did. If Shelly was a man, and the genders were reversed, would anybody bat an eye about the age difference?
Locutus 41
So, the OP is a sugar momma who cut the cord??? LOL!
Goldie 42
@ Karl R:
“You believe me when I say that I don’t want kids. Trust that you can equally believe younger men who firmly feel the same way. They’ve had plenty of time to consider the idea.”
Good point. I have to agree. I admit that my experience is limited. One man that comes to mind is a much younger guy who said he liked me and cared for me, but then, in a casual conversation, he’d say things like “when I have kids of my own”… Which, in my opinion, left no room for me in his future. So I never even bothered to develop an interest. He’s a great guy, but not for me. I guess if a man told me upfront that he did not want kids, that’d be different and I’d give this man a chance.
Ruby 43
Shelly wrote, “It quickly became romantic and he fell deeply in love with me and worshiped the ground I walked on. I, on the other hand, had feelings for him but nothing like that.”
If one person has has fallen that deeply in love with someone who doesn’t share those feelings, then that is the bottom line. Unless Shelly decides that she’s letting external factors influence her decision (his age, lack of resources, whatever), then they both need to move on.
Some other guy 44
@Karl
Not every man who hangs onto a woman who sees no future is secretly hoping for a future. Many are in fact just spending enjoyable time together, a lovely friends-with-benefits arrangement (in which case, nobody is using anybody else), even if there might be tugs that wish of more. I’m sorry if I gave the impression that FWB is inherently taking advantage.
But once you’ve spent a lot of time with a person, you can often tell what’s going on inside, to read their vibe that they’re still totally in love with you, and that even if they say they’re OK with just passing the time, you *know* that you’re taking advantage of them by stringing them along.
You can’t be expected to read everybody’s mind all the time, but to say that you should always be able to take the other person’s word at face value, even if they’re hopelessly ensorcelled, seems like willful ignorance to me.
Kathleen 45
Karl 39
Compelling argument
Right on! I love the questions for all women If an older man told me what was best for me Id laugh in his face. In fact I think I remember doing that when I was as young as 14!
Girl in the midwest 38
Your point that as women and men become more equal, women will have similar options to men is a good one. Helen Fisher PHD Anthropolgist says that relationship pairing of younger men older women will continue increase because of this.
Lia 46
@ Karl R #12, #25, & #39
Clear, insightful, rational, and well said!
I loved the questions!!! If someone thought they knew what was best for me based on what they thought I wanted, needed, felt, and what I should do I would not tolerate that. If I ASK for advice that is different.
@ Locutus #41
LOL!!! Right to the point in less then a dozen words!
Lurking 47
Although Evan’s advice is good, and speaks to what her letter specified, I can’t see many middle aged man ever writing for advice asking if he did the right thing by breaking up with a girl 13 yrs. younger because she loved him more than he loved her? Most men would love this situation and not get out of it, especially just to be alone again, with the uncertainty of replacing the relationship. There is no stigma for a man dating a younger woman who makes less money, it is usually respected. That’s why the ‘flip the genders” rationale in this story doesn’t really apply? It’s great that she is so confident that she will find ’the one’ again in her forties- when the majority of people are married EVERY WHERE you go. I’m not sure she has a realistic grasp (like Evan does from his client base) on dating at her age. This young man already loves her, knows her, is comfortable living with her, committed, wants a future with her, and is her companion and lover. All of these are difficult to replace. From where most women of a certain age stand in similar dating scenarios, it was risky throwing him back into the pond.
Kathleen 48
Lurking 47
Thoughtful post and I agree with you that. I can’t imagine a middle aged man writing for advice in this situation.
As Ive said part of the issue is that woman has been married half her life and doesn’t really know what her options are at this time. Luckily she’s said she’s attractive and sexy but in the online world of men her age a high percent are looking for younger and many of the never been married men her age may have an avoidant attachment style.
starthrower68 49
I’m evidently a societal misfit. While sex is indeed fun, I am not like get involved with someone merely for casual sex. I just think for me, I can find many other things to do that are more fulfilling.
Ruby 50
Lurking #47
OTOH, I’ve known middle-aged men who’ve gotten involved with younger women, and the younger women didn’t hesitate to dump them,usually because they wanted children and the man did not.
Actually, there are many older singles these days, but it’s true that the men in that age range often want younger women, or as Kathleen (#48) said, they have developed an avoidant attachment style of relating that makes them poor prospects.
Goldie 51
@ Lurking #47, Ruby #50 – And I also know older men who do NOT want to get involved with much younger women, because they don’t believe they will get the level of companionship that they’re looking for, with someone from a much younger generation. Also, just because older men want to date much younger women, doesn’t mean the much younger women are going to reciprocate. I personally wasn’t thrilled to have men 22-23 year older than I, coming after me, especially when it happened in real life vs. online — that one really creeped me out. Come on. The OP is 46, not dead. It’s probably easier for a 25-year-old on the dating market than it is for a 46-year-old, but it doesn’t mean that a 46yo woman will never be able to find a man, or, if she managed to find one, she needs to hold on to him for dear life, whether she likes him or not. It’s not that bad out there. I was 44 last time I dated and I had to beat guys off with a stick. Towards the end of it, I spent a few uncomfortable weeks trying to decide between two men that both liked me and were both a great match. And I don’t even live in a major city or wherever the quality eligible men are — I live in the Rust Belt, where the pickings are supposed to be slim.
However, I have to admit, there were two things in the OP’s letter that set off red flags with me – “I thought I would be happily married by now” and “selfishly, I don’t want to be alone”. IMO this is the perfect recipe for ending up with the wrong person. My personal strategy when coming out of my marriage was that, as awesome as it would be to meet someone who’s right for me, that wasn’t why I ended the marriage. I ended it because I felt I was better off being single than staying in that marriage. That, as I was told, is the only valid reason to end a marriage at all, because the man who’s right for you may never materialize. You’ve got to learn to be happy being on your own. That is almost a prerequisite for being happy with someone else. If you feel pressured to find someone and get married, you’ll rush through dating and make bad choices. If you feel that your time is running out, you’re too old, and you’ve got to snatch a guy, any guy, before those pesky 25-year-olds get their claws into him, you will again rush through dating and make bad choices. You’ve got to learn to take it one day at a time, and whatever happens, happens.
Karmic Equation 52
@Kathleen & Ruby
What is an avoidant attachment style and how is that exhibited in behavior? TIA for any clarification.
Kathleen 53
Karmic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults
Good description on Wiki link.
Those with anxiety about intimacy/ closeness , reluctance to commit or share with partner, belief partner is clingy, invest little emotion in romantic relationships, unwilling to share thoughts and feeling with others.
Karl R 54
Lurking, (#47) and Kathleen, (#48)
I was going to give a number of examples (from my own life) explaining why you’re wrong, but Goldie (#51) made the exact same points I would have.
some other guy said: (#44)
“You can’t be expected to read everybody’s mind all the time, but to say that you should always be able to take the other person’s word at face value, even if they’re hopelessly ensorcelled, seems like willful ignorance to me.”
I don’t live in Hogwarts, Middle Earth, Narnia, Azeroth or Oz. People don’t become “hopelessly ensorcelled.” On the other hand, people use lame excuses like that in order to dodge the blame for their own poor choices.
I don’t know whether you have (or intend to have) your own kids, but I doubt you’d accept a crappy explanation like, “I was hopelessly ensorcelled,” if your own teenager was trying to excuse his/her own poor decisions … much less from an adult in his 30s.
This isn’t an adult preying on a teenager (who might not know better). We’re talking about two adults.
marymary 55
Agree with goldie. I met someone when I was 47. I love to hear of older women meeting someone. I don,t assume that the man they meet is undesirable. that would say more about me than the woman in question, or her beau. We should feel encouraged when women meet someone, not defeated.
If you want to throw around comments about older men or younger men or divorced men or whatever kind of men being unfit for relationships, then we can,t cry foul when they say similar stuff about us. That all men want younger is not true. Some men say they can,t bear the drama of dating young women. I don,t agree with them actually, but there ARE different viewpoints out there. There are many more men out there that you haven,t met than you have. if you haven,t met one right for you, don,t write them all off or start vetching about women who have met one (even if those women are not as high quallity as you). That attitude will keep you from getting what you want from life a lot more than men,s supposed faults.
Still, I did think somewhat like that myself when I was younger. I don,t anymore. i,ve become more open, more compassionate, more optimistic with age. I,m not some dried up desperado.
Lia 56
@ Goldie #51
Thank you! My feelings exactly!
Kathleen 57
Karl
You disagree that a middle aged man would have a conundrum about the same situation reversed?
I agree with Goldies post 51 The second paragraph is especially wise advice. The OP hasn’t had an opportunity to be own her own for more than 20 years and it was a good observation that she had said she was afraid of being alone.
At least from my own experience in the 4 last years post divorce Ive become happier than any other time in my life, while not being in a relationship and being on my own. I think having some alone transition time is important.
Lurking 58
Goldie; where were you meeting all these men that you had to beat off with w stick at age 44? Out there in real life or match.com? And, were they suitable companions or mostly 1st dates and then never see each other again? I don’t think your experience is typical.
Karl R 59
Kathleen asked: (#57)
“You disagree that a middle aged man would have a conundrum about the same situation reversed?”
I broke up with a woman who was 11 years younger than me because I didn’t see her as a potential wife. (That’s where my experience is similar to Shelly’s.)
On the other hand, I didn’t start questioning my decision later on. (That’s where my experience is different from Shelly’s.)
If a (rational) man thinks his current girlfriend isn’t a good long-term partner, he’s going to be willing to dump her for that reason. If he believes that his relationship with her (even if it’s just casual sex) is getting in the way of having a better long-term relationship, he’s going to follow through and dump her very soon.
Irrelevant details:
1. The man’s age.
2. The girlfriend’s age.
3. Social stigma.
4. The girlfriend’s feelings toward the man.
Relevant details:
1. “I don’t love him/her.”
2. “I don’t want to marry him/her.”
3. “This relationship is preventing me from finding someone else.”
I can’t tell you whether a middle-aged man will feel Shelly’s level of angst of the decision. (That will vary from one man to another.) I can tell you that they will break up, regardless of whether they’re a thoughtful guy or an insensitive prick.
Kathleen 60
Karl 59 Thanks for helping me understand that. That makes sense.
Mary mary I agree a 46 year old woman has an optimistic outlook for finding a partner especially if she’s attractive. I mentioned the high % of guys looking for younger on match because that may be her fear and regret of letting the roommate go when she doesn’t know what her options are.
marymary 61
Lurking
Butting in here, but in my forties men have approached me at parties, at church, at the local shop, at networking events, in the lift at work.
can,t say how many could progress but I posit that one or two would be sufficient. in fact, the one that I went for is still progressing.
it may not be typical but it,s not so atypical that it,s impossible to meet someone once you,re over 40. the OP met someone, Goldie met someone, I met someone. a friend of mine in her fifties got married a few years ago to someone she met in her late forties. Another met her husband in her fifties. How many examples do you need? Does it matter if it takes two years rather than six months in the grand scheme of things? Especially at this advanced age, two years just flies by!
if it,s so difficult to meet someone in your forties then surely it,s best to be more choosy, not less? Better ditch the no future guy now so the OP can start looking for those few remaining eligible men before someone else finds them. Does anyone really have the time and stamina for a relationship that they know isn.t going anywhere, regardless of their age?
And there,s always option two. Single is better than an unfulfilling relationship.
Magdalena 62
Ohhh Evan! You seem like a nice Jewish boy – but you’re making me meshuge! Why do you always miss the point? Is this intentional, or is it because you’re a man?
Firstly, a man who would use a younger woman would, indeed, get and deserve all of my (and hopefully all of the smart women’s) derision. Because HE would be using her for her young, wet panties. Now, that’s just a fact and you know it. He needs to get the younger poontang so that he can feel virile again. He is a USER.
This younger man is USING this older woman who obviously likes having him around because she has a hard time letting go and reminding herself that it’s okay to be mature and beautiful. I would (for example) die to look . like Julie Christie when I am 70. But I digress. we have the MALE WORLD to thank for that notion as well…that a woman is only as good as the age 39 and after she’s nothing. The reason the younger man is a user (yes, Evan, he is) is because he is shacking up with a woman and has NO JOB IN NEW YORK CITY!?!? You don’t see a problem with that? He’s not a USER? Really? Do you honestly believe that he’s not going to want some kids some day and knows this woman isn’t good for his “need to breed” which will inevitably show? (refer to Ashton Kutcher). Of course he will! And he KNOWS it!! He is a USER!
Anita 63
I’m with the people who say she should consider marrying him or staying with him long-term. I say that because the only thing she has against the relationship (it seems) is that he is younger. I know women married to men who are that much younger than they are and it’s worked out. The job thing seemed incidental–not like it was a big problem for the OP. I don’t know why she says she’s using him, if they feel so strongly about each other. Love is love. It doesn’t always look the way we expect it to look or arrive when we expect it to arrive. If you could Amazon would be all over it.
XJyoyo 64
I agree with Evan’s opinion that Shelly has done the right thing which was ethical, and will be good for her ex-bf in long run. I just ended a 2-year relationship with my ex-bf 2 months ago, he is 10 year older than me (not that big age gap). I was upset and angry when we split, because he never told me that he actually didn’t want to live with me in future although he knew I wanted a family with him. He said that I and my daughter could move to another city to live with him in future, that was when our relationship was into 3 months. Of course it wasn’t a right time to make decision back then. He had never lived with any of his GFs before although he is already 44. I expressed to him that I wanted a normal family a few times last year, but he didn’t respond. In late November, my friend and her BF warned me that the guy seemed to have problem of thinking about having future with me from what I said. I asked him (a bit aggressively this time): “Just give me an answer “Do you want our relationship to remain like this forever?, he didn’t want to talk about it with me at first. But I was a bit angy and said: “Please just tell me if you want to have a family with me or not, it’s ok that you say ‘No’. He still refused to answer and said it won’t be a constructive conversation. Finally, he admitted that he can’t live with anyone , he just wanted to remain dating me.
I felt that I had been completely used by him in the past 2 years; he had been dishonest to me. The worse thing is that he wasted my precious time. 2 years is not short for a 33 year old woman. Now I am almost 35. I also got hurt for what he had done to me. He even said when I wanted to break up:” Why bother? You have already got J..a(My daughter’s name). I think he was a jerk, he didn’t even apologize to me for what he did, and still wanted to stay over night at my place after I said we have to break up. What a bustard.
Nicole 65
@Lurking, while men and women may get to indulge in unrealistic expectations online, in real life, people usually approach people who are likely to be good fits and who will take them seriously.
I’ve known many perfectly average middle aged women who managed to find 2nd husbands. And honestly, I’ve seen pretty women who didn’t find a first husband.
The poster might be pretty but the truth of the matter is, most people are average, which is why that category exists, and lots of average men and women meet, date, and get married.
Everyone is cute to someone else, so it’s likely anyone complaining about getting ignored is actually doing some ignoring themselves. I know that I do that a lot. (Ignore people or assume they aren’t being serious).
Helen 66
Evan, I’m not sure why you think women would find the OP’s letter “abhorrent” if the genders were reversed. I certainly wouldn’t. The OP has done nothing wrong in this case; it wouldn’t make any difference if it were a man or woman. The point is that it’s not just her feelings that should be judged - we all have irrational feelings (and I’m not convinced her feelings are irrational). What matters is whether we act upon them, or act with integrity no matter what. In this case, it seems that she acted with integrity despite her lonely feelings.
Lurking 47: I would add one more thing (since it seems that others here have already covered the age issue): you shouldn’t just marry someone because THEY have strong feelings for you, if you don’t have strong feelings for them, out of loneliness or desperation. You don’t do this at any age, whether you’re in your 20s, 40s, or 60s.
I get the sense that you’re valuing the status of being married or otherwise coupled above anything else – at least for the OP’s sake. Doesn’t matter whether the two are actually compatible, just as long as they’re not single. This is a potentially disastrous way to think.
Gina 67
@ Goldie:
”My personal strategy when coming out of my marriage was that, as awesome as it would be to meet someone who’s right for me, that wasn’t why I ended the marriage. I ended it because I felt I was better off being single than staying in that marriage. That, as I was told, is the only valid reason to end a marriage at all, because the man who’s right for you may never materialize. You’ve got to learn to be happy being on your own. That is almost a prerequisite for being happy with someone else. If you feel pressured to find someone and get married, you’ll rush through dating and make bad choices. If you feel that your time is running out, you’re too old, and you’ve got to snatch a guy, any guy, before those pesky 25-year-olds get their claws into him, you will again rush through dating and make bad choices. You’ve got to learn to take it one day at a time, and whatever happens, happens.”
My sentiments exactly!!!
Goldie 68
@ Lurking – aww thanks for asking. I’d say it was a mix of everything. Real-life friends, Match, OkCupid, Meetup, social groups that I belong to… Everyone but coworkers. My age group, 5-7 years younger, and 5-7 years older. I admit that I had several things going for me: I relate pretty easily to men; I have sort of won the genetic lottery (wasn’t the prettiest girl in high school or college, but now all of a sudden, I ended up with really good looks for my age group); I like dating geeks, which is probably not every woman’s favorite dating group. I’m really not into the alpha types, and that’s just as well, because they’re probably not into me, either. I’m still friends with quite a few of these guys. I mean, it’s not like we hang out and do things together — with my bf living 70 miles from me, I don’t have any kind of free time for that — but we message each other, catch up for drinks on occasion, and know we can count on each other when in need of advice or help. So hopefully this answers your question of whether they were one-date hits or not. I’ve had a few of those, but hasn’t everyone? and I got played exactly once. I’d say it could’ve been worse. I didn’t do too hot when I first started out, because like Shelley (the OP), I didn’t have any dating experience, and was too concentrated on partnering up and getting out of the dating game as soon as possible. When I stopped evaluating each date as potential long-term partner, and started approaching dating as the process of meeting new people and learning about them, with no expectations of having a family, an LTR, or even another date with that person (because that’s not really completely up to me to decide, they have a say in it too, and can say no for a variety of reasons and I have to respect that), things got easier and more fun. I like to tell people that it felt like being back in college! I ended up meeting someone on OKC. We have a ton of common interests, and are having a great time together so far (16 months if memory serves me?) If things end, I’ll probably take some time for myself, and then do it all over again, probably with more emphasis on meeting people IRL, especially if I’ve turned 50 by then, since I heard that people on dating sites react negatively to that number. Not sure if I’m an exception or not, because I’ve only had a handful of single girlfriends my age. They all seem to be doing very well for themselves, though.
Joe 69
@ Magdalena #62:
Read the letter again. It says he was new from NY, which indicates to me (and I suspect the majority of readers) that he came from NY. It doesn’t even specify New York City…
Kathleen 70
Magdalens 62
You are a character! Your post had me laughing. Yes the guys is no victim LOL
Karl R 71
Helen asked: (#66)
“Evan, I’m not sure why you think women would find the OP’s letter ‘abhorrent’ if the genders were reversed.”
You are a very open-minded and objective person. Not all people are like you. Take a look at the opposite end of the spectrum…
Magdalena said (referring to an older man): (#62)
“HE would be using her for her young, wet panties. Now, that’s just a fact and you know it. He needs to get the younger poontang so that he can feel virile again. He is a USER.”
Magdalena said (referring to the younger man): (#62)
“This younger man is USING this older woman who obviously likes having him around because she has a hard time letting go and reminding herself that it’s okay to be mature and beautiful.”
In Magdalena’s world, the man is always the user. She’s willing to ignore Shelly’s description of the younger man (“he fell deeply in love with me and worshiped the ground I walked on”) because it doesn’t fit with what she “knows” about this younger man.
Most women fall somewhere between you and Magdalena. They find it easier to see a woman’s viewpoint than a man’s, but they don’t blind themselves to the parallels between the situations.
Anita 72
About the Lurking thread and stuff about age. My mom is in a retirement community and there is all sorts of romantic intrigue going on there. Sexual behavior continues until our bodies just give out. You don’t hear or see much about this in the media, so unless you’re around older people you won’t know about it.
Also half of adults in the US are single, I’ve read. Seems to be big news these days. Doubt they’re all sitting around by their lonesomes doing nothing. And white alpha males running the world is really becoming a thing of the past. So these two things are changing the dating dynamics in the US, I’d say. (In the May-December scenario it was always an old white alpha guy with a young fetishable girly girl. Now you see different types of May-December pairings and different reasons for pairing up.)
Goldie 73
@ Anita, this is so true! My parents are 75, and have lived in several subsidized-rent houses for seniors by now. They tell me it’s the same thing everywhere they’ve lived, people are pairing up left and right. My friends’ widowed mothers, same thing. They’re in their 70s, and just about every one of them has a boyfriend that they enjoy spending time and doing things with. Life goes on
Locutus 74
Magdalena #62,
Your post has got to be a joke. You appear to view men much the same way a Ku Klux Klan member would view a black person. Do you really have complete contempt for men? Another post about women being helpless victims even when they even admit to using someone, as the OP even STATED herself!!!!
Karl R 75
Locutus said: (#74)
“Another post about women being helpless victims even when they even admit to using someone, as the OP even STATED herself!!!!”
As much as I disagree with Magdalena (on practically everything), you got one important detail wrong.
Shelly did not say she used her boyfriend. Evan chooses the titles for the blog posts.
Based on Shelly’s letter to Evan, we don’t have enough information to tell whether she was using him or not. We have, however, seen evidence that Shelly believe her boyfriend didn’t use her.
Nicole 76
@Goldie, actually I’ve been reading for years about issues with STDs and HIV with older adults. It’s a hard segment to treat b/c they don’t necessarily like to fess up about having multiple partners or sometimes even being sexually active at all.
Essentially you have people who think they don’t need to worry about anything b/c they can no longer get pregnant, assume their peers aren’t a risk for anything, people who didn’t get to put a lot of miles on the speedometer before they got married b/c it wasn’t socially/morally acceptable and are not living it up, and the bad gender imbalances so from what I’ve heard, some retirement communities are very much rooster in the hen house scenarios where you’ll have some of those old guys with a lot of “birds” to spend time with.
Plus I’d read that the ones that are shared room living have conjugal visit rooms.
I also saw a show on TLC called “Extreme Cougars” and there is really nothing I could describe that that title doesn’t already explain.
Locutus 77
Hi Karl,
I stand corrected. You are correct.
Anita 78
Nicole & Goldie: Interesting. I always had the idea that you hit middle age and nobody wants anybody anymore, the body’s all used up, and that no one falls in love any more. But a lot of people seem to be saying that this isn’t the case. Makes me happy. Not sure why I had that idea or why that idea being wrong makes me happy.
Karmic Equation 79
As long as the guy doesn’t want children by natural means (childbirth, as opposed to adoption or surrogacy or in vitro) – I think if OP loves the guy and he her, then it could work.
But if he wants children and she’s beyond her childbearing years, then it would be unfair for her to continue the relationship, even if they love each other dearly.
janie 80
first I want to say to those who say they’d never date someone so much younger…I didn’t think I ever would either. I had been divorced abt 5yrs also in my early 40′s, and very sceptical to dating. I started working with a friend I’d known for about 4 yrs and he was 17yrs younger. If someone had told me that I was going to date him prior it happening, I’d have laughed. While I loved him as a friend, he was not even close to the type of guy I had ever been attracted to. anyway I started hanging out with him almost like I would’ve one of my girlfriends, but somewhere along the way I became very attracted to him. ..I think for the first time in my life I fell in love. I fell in love because of the person he really was inside. while I knew the relationship had an expiration date… he needed to have the marriage and have children. … experience that part of life that I had already lived. … I’m not done living, I’m just on a different chapter. I only wish I could’ve been that person to share all of that with him. we were together for about a year and now two years later I’m still very much in love with him. It was the best relationship I ever had , and the only reason it ended is because I loved him enough to let him go. He is such a good man, he needed to have a family. … and be that great husband and great father. ..I believe if he had stayed with me and never had that , that years later that may have built resentment. I rarely share but felt the need to for some reason. ..mostly for myself I guess. …so if you have any comments please be kind