Is It You Or Is It Men?
It recently occurred to me that I have two types of clients:
1) Women who are their own greatest problem – too busy, too picky, too egotistical, too shy, too negative, too passive, etc.
2) Women who are absolutely delightful with only one issue: they’re terrible at picking men.
Who do you think is easier for me to assist?
Look in the mirror and ask yourself – am I too picky, too egocentric, too passive – or have I simply never paid attention to the men who were excited about me?
Is it easier to tell a busy woman who is married to her job to take more time for love? To tell a 39-year-old woman who looks great for her age that she should open up to slightly older men instead of hoping for a hot 35-year-old? To convince a woman with a history of emotional abuse that men are not the enemy?
Or is it far simpler to teach women to value men who value them in return?
Yeah, it’s not such a mystery after all.
I’ve got three clients right now who are on the cusp of relationships after less than two months of working with me. They’re different, but their stories are the same.
They range from 40-51 years old and are bright, likeable, and attractive.
They had some bad experiences, made some mistakes, wasted some time on the wrong men, and, after reading Why He Disappeared, inquired about working with me. All fit neatly into my second category of delightful women with bad pickers.
And once we rebranded them on Match.com, and let the process take its course, it was only a matter of time until good things started to happen. (To be fair, one of these women met her guy through Speed Dating, so I can’t take credit.)
But what each of them is experiencing is what it feels like to be valued by a man.
Their new guys call them every day. They pay for every meal. They say they’re starting to fall for them. They’re taking down their profiles. They’re talking about a future.
My clients can’t believe that it was that easy to find men who would treat them so kindly and consistently.
But that’s not because those men aren’t out there.
That’s because my clients never chose those men before.
Still, my delightful women worry about screwing up – what if I say something wrong, what if it’s not right, what if, what if, what if.
You know what I tell them?
When a guy is into you, you CAN’T do anything wrong.
Just appreciate his effort and make him feel rewarded for being so good to you.
Yes, it’s that easy.
So look in the mirror and ask yourself – am I too picky, too egocentric, too passive – or have I simply never paid attention to the men who were excited about me?
If it’s the latter, you’re a lot closer to love than you even realize.
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76 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Heather 1
Evan, here’s a question for you. Do you think there could be a third category there too? Meaning, women who are nice and do value men and whatnot, but because of some abuse and poor choices, have become more closed off or negative or have just written men off altogether?
I for one, think there is, because I see bits of both in me. I once LOVED men. I mean I was like a moth to a flame with them. Always flirting, having fun, lots of guy friends, guys wanting to date me. But then I met some wrong ones who could definitely sniff out my poor self esteem, and because of the poor self esteem, picked out the abusive ones because I thought they just needed a woman to love them. And the abuse took its toll. Sure, I’ve grown a LOT smarter about dating, but with that knowledge there is also a lot of difficulty in trusting again.
I want to trust men, I want to like them, I do value the nice ones, and do value the really good one I have now. But part of me keeps thinking, yeah and what if he wants to marry? Maybe he won’t be that nice after settling into married life, and might be the prince that turns into a frog? I’ve watched marriages and relationships crumble around me left and right in the last year or so and it’s left me thinking that maybe growing old alone, might not be all that bad after all.
Anyone else in that boat here too?
Evan Marc Katz 2
@Heather. Nothing involving relationships is purely binary. I make those simplistic distinctions to make a point and provoke thought. So yes, there can certainly be a third category. But here’s the thing with members of that third category: it’s all on you to change, not on men.
I’m not going to play psychologist, dig into your past or try to fix a few decades of self-esteem issues – either in this blog or as a coach.
I will tell you something obvious and true, though: you can’t be treated in any way that you don’t allow yourself to be treated.
That gets rid of the abusive guys. Instantly. Definitively. Some women see a guy who is a selfish, petulant child and try to win his love, hoping he’ll change. Others won’t give him time past the third date. From now on, you’ll be in the second category.
As far as fear that the amazing new guy turns into a bad guy? I don’t see why you’d conclude that at all. Shouldn’t he be equally worried that YOU’LL turn into a cold, selfish, heartless, golddigging shrew? No? Well then imagine his surprise when he learns that you think he’s going to suddenly morph into an asshole after he puts a ring on your finger.
I’m not saying that people don’t get complacent in relationships, but simply that it’s a two way street, and that fear is a completely useless emotion – as it will only hold you back from having a safe, authentic, healthy relationship. You can choose to be alone to avoid getting hurt, or you can make better decisions and choose men with character for a lifetime relationship.
What’s it gonna be?
Karl R 3
Heather asked: (#1)
“Do you think there could be a third category there too?”
It sounds to me that you started in category 2 (picking abusive men) and have moved to category 1 (too negative/suspiscious).
Heather asked: (#1)
“Maybe he won’t be that nice after settling into married life, and might be the prince that turns into a frog?”
You need to have more self-confidence and faith in yourself.
Faith and self-confidence won’t keep you from getting a frog. That could happen anyway. But if my fiancée ultimately turns out to be a horrible person, I know that I can rely on myself to do the right thing … I’ll leave that toxic environment.
If you can trust yourself to leave an abusive relationship, you don’t need to fear getting trapped in one. At worst, you’ll have to go through the difficulty of leaving one.
justme 4
Evan – Could you please define “slightly older”? My definition would be within 10 years of my age at the outside. Not to say that is my cutoff (depends on the guy; I have dated upto 13 years older). But if you say be open to slightly older and you mean 15+, I am probably going to have to say “no thanks”.
Otherwise, I think you are right. I am too busy and need to make time.
Heather 5
Evan, I agree with you about making better decisions in the future. And of late, I’d like to think that I’m more in the second category, I do value guys, like them, and certainly don’t want to hate them. We’re all responsible for our own actions and I certainly don’t blame all men for the actions of a few guys who were not good to me.
But I wonder, is fear really a useless emotion? Fear from my past has actually helped, in an odd way. The hackles going up, feeling like I need to get outta somewhere in a hell of a hurry, helped me get away from a few bad guys before even meeting a guy in person, or ending a first date and not allowing a second date. It’s helped me to watch out for more red flags than when I was single and then met my ex husband, totally Mr. Wrong. Has it possibly been misplaced fear and kept me from being around some good guys? Oh I’m sure, perhaps. But still, that fear has also motivated me to do better, be more picky, be more cautious about men in general.
Heather 6
@ Karl, well here’s the thing. I am certainly not afraid of being trapped in a toxic environment, leaving two abusive relationships taught me that yes, I can leave, yes I deserve more, and no, I should never tolerate any kind of abuse at all, ever.
My fear is that despite all the hard work I’ve done, and what I learned in therapy, didn’t stick and bam, I’m back with another rotten apple. I often want to ask folks, so how do you KNOW that that person is going to stick with you until the end? How do you feel about not knowing, yet taking that leap anyways? Isn’t that scary as hell? That’s more of where I am right now.
Evan is right that being alone permanently can prevent that hurt, but then you’re alone, and I certainly get that. But I definitely want to make damn sure that it’s Mr. Right, not Mr. Right for five years until he wakes up and decides he’s “just not in love with me anymore” or “things aren’t working out” and bolts out the door.
Evan Marc Katz 7
Heather, you just said you have a great boyfriend and are afraid that one day he’ll fall out of love with you. THAT fear is a useless emotion. It’s like me waking up every day afraid of dying of cancer. How about I wait until I get cancer to start fearing it?
Heather 8
Evan, yes, THAT fear I agree with you about. What I mean is just a reasonable amount of fear/caution whatever. Like the old saying goes, “Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.” Every time I would catch myself being interested in a guy that was clearly some kind of trouble or head case, my mind would flash back to my ex husband and his violence, and then suddenly, poof. No more interest in the potential guy. That is what I’m referring to.
Ruby 9
Heather
It sounds like you’ve had trouble trusting your gut instincts in the past, but it also sounds like you’ve gotten a lot better about that, and it’s helped you to pick a great guy rather than another abuser. No one has a crystal ball, but I would say that good communication with your boyfriend, and trusting your gut when something doesn’t feel right, is key. That’s what you’re referring to when you talk about how fear has motivated you. If you need that motivation in the future, it will be there for you again.
Karl R 10
Heather asked: (#6)
“I often want to ask folks, so how do you KNOW that that person is going to stick with you until the end?”
I don’t. It is possible that my fiancée could leave me. Since she’s older than me, it’s also probable that she’ll die before me.
Heather asked: (#6)
“How do you feel about not knowing, yet taking that leap anyways?”
I either take the plunge, not knowing the outcome, or I never take the plunge.
I’d rather proceed with uncertainty, rather than let fear of the unknown limit my life.
Heather asked: (#6)
“Isn’t that scary as hell?”
It’s pointless to worry about that. It’s outside of my control.
I do what I can to make our relationship successful. Beyond that, I don’t worry about it. Being scared does not improve our relationship’s odds of success.
Heather asked: (#5)
“is fear really a useless emotion?”
If you’re letting the fear warn you away from someone who is bad news, it’s useful. If you’re using the fear to give you the energy/awareness to help deal with a situation, it’s useful.
Unless it’s obvious how the fear is helping you, then it’s probably not helpful in that circumstance.
Heather 11
@ Ruby,
Yes, that’s exactly it, you put into words for me what I wasn’t really able to say. I only recently started getting very gun-shy about the whole idea of remarriage, after watching several long marriages dissolve, for no really “good” reason, except selfishness on the one partner’s part. It just made me think good lord, the folks I knew going through those divorces, were pretty smart, level headed people who gave ME lots of advice about relationships. So if it’s happened to them, what makes me think it won’t happen to me, and holy god do I really want to risk that again? The first time ruined my credit, broke my heart, and left me fearful of any guy with a hint of temper. I don’t want to think what a second divorce would do to me! Maybe time will help that fear subside, I’ve been divorced for 5 years, separated for 6. I don’t know. EMK and Karl are of course right, too much fear is not good, and nobody knows the future.
Karl,
What you say makes sense, I think I’m experiencing what another dating blogger, Paige Parker, describes as guys freaking out about commitment in general, not that one person. And the fact that I have a nice man that for once, isn’t mean, nasty, abusive, and just awful to me, scares me, because I’d become so accustomed to bad treatment, bad dates, that I didn’t have any idea what a good boyfriend could be like. I’m just doing the reverse. Instead of commitment, I’m afraid of the guy morphing into a real twit, like EMK was saying above. I’m hoping that with time, it will get easier.
But I’m very glad for the input, and I appreciate it Evan.
Michelle 12
“The hackles going up, feeling like I need to get outta somewhere in a hell of a hurry, helped me get away from a few bad guys before even meeting a guy in person, or ending a first date and not allowing a second date.”
This sounds like intuition to me, and a strong one at that. In context of fear being or not being a useless emotion, how about changing that to trusting your intuition? It’s usually never wrong.
Michael17 13
Heather #1, many many men are reading this wondering why a woman would go for an abusive man. Specifically, how did the attraction develop between you and the abuser, while you found yourself NOT attracted to the nice guys who surely asked you out. What went on in more detail on the early dates.
This is my theory: A woman goes on a first date with Nice Guy. They have a pleasant conversation about their careers and their hobbies (what do you know, he’s into good clean fun!). Again, it was a pleasant interaction, but they didn’t really connect. They basically showed each other their “polite” side. There was hardly an emotion triggered on her end. So no second date. Then she hangs out with Abuser. He doesn’t stick to the polite first-date script, he instead tells her some pretty rough tales of his life. But he also shows a hint that he can be sweet and that maybe she is woman enough to be the one who can reach him. It also frees her to express the darker sides of her personality that she doesn’t feel safe to express with anyone else. So she is drawn in.
Am I at all warm here?
Leah 14
@Heather – I agree about the third category. I’ve had seemingly wonderful guys (“nice guys”) who called every day, talked about falling in love, talked about a future with me…asked to move in with me, talked about kids, were essentially my boyfriends, etc. for months. Only to find out that these guys had girlfriends (or wives) still in the picture. It is possible to do the “right things” (ie. follow Evan’s advice) and still get duped by some slick operators.
Goldie 15
@ Heather:
“But I definitely want to make damn sure that it’s Mr. Right, not Mr. Right for five years until he wakes up and decides he’s “just not in love with me anymore” or “things aren’t working out” and bolts out the door.”
Early in our marriage, my husband once told me that he’d fallen out of love with me, but wanted to stick around for the kids. Since this was preceded by about two years of verbal abuse, it didn’t come as a surprise. One of the reasons I finally left him years later, even though things got sort of better (seeing as they couldn’t get any worse…) was because I couldn’t stand the suspense: what if he pulls this again? what if he does it, not while I’m still young and can make a good living on my own, but when I’m old and sick? So yeah, I understand where you’re coming from. However, in my case, he’d already done it once, and failed to make a complete 180 in the following years, which made the possibility of him doing it again, in my opinion, pretty high. What’s the possibility of your BF, who’s never been anything but a nice guy, doing this to you? I’d say very low. Is it, however, zero? No, technically, anything is possible. Can you prevent it by worrying? No. I do occasionally wonder the same thing about my BF. As in, he’s been nothing but awesome, but I don’t rule out the possibility of him “falling out of love and walking out”. I just tell myself, that, in the highly unlikely case that it happens, it won’t be the end of the world. I’ll still have my friends and family, and all the life I used to have before we met. I was happy then, and I could definitely be happy again in the same setting. Then I put the whole thing out of my mind and stop worrying about it, because frankly I have more serious things to worry about (two teenage kids, single income, you get the drift, lol) Good luck.
Saint Stephen 16
@Michael17
I think it all boils down to the nice guys versus bad guys debate. My guess is that if Heather had dated a nice guy earlier she would have run for the hills because he’d just be overly predictable and plain boring. No challenge.
However many women will eventually come to cherish and appreciate the nice guys after being at the other end of the relationship spectrum. The nice guys suddenly becomes a breath of fresh air . Sadly, most nice guys might be already taken by the time some women come to realize the difference between a good relationship and a toxic one.
Elizabeth 17
What is you do pick the “nice” guy–that is excited to be with you…and months down the road, his demeanor changes from zen to crazy and hellish? Then what? On a separate note…how long does it take to get over someone…someone that is absolutely no good for you??
Elizabeth 18
I can relate to Heather. fully. from day one–I have met someone (now an ex) and he was completely different from the person he turned out to be – a year later. He was calm, peaceful…then after 8 months or so, he had road rage, was constantly confrontational with me and all other around him, people he worked with or just came into contact with. He demeanor changed completely. It blind sided me. so–i want to remain optimistic about people I meet–and give them the benefit of the doubt…but in the back of my mind…I am waiting for the shoe to drop. Because, you never know…what truly lies beneath. I don’t want to invest time AND emotion to find out down the road–8 months later that his personality is completely different–on the negative side. Or that he is abusive in nature. It’s truly a scary feeling, to wear your heart on your sleeve, and give a man the benefit of the doubt. I do want to let someone in, but my past has taught me to be cautious. How do you must proceed–without any walls?
Saint Stephen 19
I wonder why the women on here (particularly… Heather) are fretting over your guy falling out of love and walking out the relationship. This isn’t a one way street. C,mon don’t tell me you’ve never considered the distinct possibility that you could be the one who suddenly grows bored along the line and decide to quit the relationship… leaving the man hanging.
The comments generated here could nearly convince someone that only men fall out of love/quit relationships.
Elizabeth 20
Michael17. Wow…you basically just described my very last/recent relationship that ended about 2 months ago. Upon meeting this “nice” guy from an online site…I actually wasn’t even attracted to him. didn’t care if he called again–or not. But — he pursued me, not to aggressively–but he did pursue me. And yes, he puts his best foot forward-claiming he is into buddhism, all zen-like, yada yada. The golden rule, etc., etc. There is no immediate spark from me. We go out a few more times…and he reveals painful dark secrets from childhood — and I guess it triggers me to reciprocate…and the rest is history. Fast forward–he is a verbally abusive, and becomes emotionally withdrawn man ultimately. We are no longer in touch. Yet, I miss him. WHY????! Michael–answer? Other than I need therapy. Which clearly, I do. But at least there is no contact now.
That’s how an abuser approaches women I take it? never got involved with someone like that before.
Elizabeth 21
St. Stephen-now having been in a toxic relationship–I can certainly appreciate a normal, nice and yes, “boring” guy that is respectful and appreciative of a loyal good woman.
Henriette 22
Pre-nup quells many fears about a guy walking out on me. He won’t bankrupt me, I won’t get rich off him, there won’t be some long, drawn-out divorce proceedings…. Of course, there’s plenty of devastation in a divorce besides the financial stuff but protecting each party’s money goes a long way to making both people feel more secure.
Karl R 23
Stephen said: (#16)
“My guess is that if Heather had dated a nice guy earlier she would have run for the hills because he’d just be overly predictable and plain boring.”
You’re making a false dichotomy.
Nice guys aren’t necessarily boring. Lousy guys aren’t necessarily exciting.
But exciting men attract a lot more interest from women than boring men do, regardless of whether they’re nice or lousy. (The same is true of confident men.)
Michael17 asked: (#13)
“many many men are reading this wondering why a woman would go for an abusive man.”
Abusive men (and women) are generally wonderful people 90% of the time (or more). It’s the other 10% (when they’re abusive) that makes them abusers.
And the abusers tend to be on their best behavior early on in relationships, so it may take months to discover their worst traits.
Saint Stephen 24
Ok Karl R, what does it take to be an exciting and confident man? Let me phrase the question in a simplified manner. How can i become an exciting guy? Do i tell them some of my dark secrets to make them fall in love? How can i create mystery?
mara 25
@ Karl
I must agree 100% about abusers. They are the NICEST in the beginning, the sweetest, and very often they try to use their f*** up childhood to make you feel for them, they know there is a nurse in every woman.
They make sure they tighten the ropes all around you and when they see you are totally in love BAM! Mr. Hyde comes into play.
At first you cannot believe it. you forgive. You try to talk. You suggest counszling, anger management, anything to “save” such a “perfect match”.
But the truth is an abuser is an abuser, a drama kind (or queen) won’t change, because that’s what they have learnt in their childhood a relationship should be,
lots of blaming, calling names, passive agressiveness, provoking and so, and never say or feel sorry of course.
And while doing so, they suck all the energy out of you, they become the center of all of your conversations with friends and family, you lose interest in your job, hobbies… Mostly they want to be the center of your world. Just like black holes, no matter how much positive you throw at them, it’s going to be swallowed at the speed of light just to give you more negativity and blackness in return.
Ladies, wake up: get rid of the “black holes”, you are NOT going to change them, THEY will end up changing you (and not for the better!).
2/ Karl, so your fiancée is older. Being so informed and clever, you must know that odds are she is still going to live longer than you, ‘aight?
Statistically, women live longer in the first world.. 6/10years depending on the country.
But hey ! I wish you 2 live 150 years in love, happiness and great health !
Mia 26
Something is wrong with you if you’re attracting abusive men. My mom was enotionslly abusive and i had a horrific childhood growing up with her, but i stood up to her and was never a pushover ( my dad was a faithful, loving father who continues to be doting and supportive). To this day , I would destroy anyone who tried to pull that crap on me. At any rate, I’ve never had a single bf ,fling, or even date where I was with an abusive man. Something about who I am must repel them. My only probs with guys are run of the mill stuff , like they don’t commit after a few months, but the four boyfriends I did have were kind men. My best friend, on the other hand, never had a dad and chases abusive men all day long– she’s a pushover and they can get away with it. She only cares if they’re hot; I want an average looking, intelligent man whose values I share and is crazy about me.
If you’re attracting bad boys and abusive men, its something about who you are deep down , probably stemming from childhood issues.
Evan Marc Katz 27
I will remind everyone here: You don’t ATTRACT the wrong men. You ACCEPT the wrong men.
Lots of men are the wrong men. Healthy women simply don’t put up with their bad behavior.
SalsaQ 28
Having had a relationship where we would both be telling each other we love one another for a few months and then he would mysteriously withdraw, become distant and decide just to be friends. Then a few weeks or a couple of months later he would come back to me. This happened a half dozen times or more during the couple of years we were dating.
During that I learned to fear doing something wrong, or not doing everything just right. That took a lot of fun out of our relationship, but after a while I decided to stop worrying and ride the waves. I was satisfied with that sort of relationship at that point in my life so it was was OK.
Tan 29
Evan your quote “you don’t attract wrong men, you accept wrong men” is so true.
I broke up with my boyfriend a few months ago on valentines day..because we had a small disagreement about our plans for the night and then he spoke to me badly…he didn’t appologize and had shown no consideration for my feelings or respect.
My gut instinct told me to dump him then and
there (but a little part of me didn’t want to) I ended up breaking up with him.
So I’ve realized that as soon as a guy doesn’t treat u good, get rid of him. That way you won’t be wasting time on the wrong guys when you could be meeting the right guy.
P.s keep up the great blogs Evan! Reading your blogs has helped me so much as I’m oy young (22) and haven’t had much experience with dating. So thanks for the advice!
Happy Person 30
EMK: To get back to the question at hand. Umm, I say…it’s men. It’s definitely men. Yup. It’s definitely men.
Next topic, please!
Paul Mawdsley 31
Heather,
I’m a guy who’s traveled a similar path to yours. I wouldn’t say self-esteem was my issue. One woman was good at finding ways to get inside and find my buttons through my blind spots. Another, well, she was two entirely different people in one. After the first few months, she started showing signs of projecting her dark emotional past– from a coldly manipulative, narcissistic mother to physically abusive first husband to a sociopathic second husband– onto me.
She went through a constant escalating cycle between deeply vulnerable, passionate, incredibly connected and emotionally insightful on the one hand, to cut off, withdrawn, emotionally destructive and intuitively manipulative on the other. Her vulnerability seemed to be the trigger. Her vulnerability triggered anxiety, which triggered her withdrawal, her defenses and her strategic manipulations.
Incidentally, I suspect this fear of vulnerability, and the anxiety it creates, is what can often make guys run away without warning after seeming to fall deeply for a woman. The anxiety triggers fight or flight.
My self-confidence and cockiness kept me in this relationship because I believed she could find her way through her pain from a life of emotional trauma if I stood by her and helped her through it. I had had a relatively trauma free life. I could never have imagined so much emotional pain and darkness in my life. I just trusted that if it ever got too much I could pull myself out and rebuild myself again. Her love for me was not stronger than her fear of being vulnerable so I had to end it. It was the most painful time of my life and I learned more about the dark side of the psyche in 18 months than I had in 43 years previous .
I came away battered and bruised and with definite signs of post traumatic stress. I came away needing to be alone. I needed to face my deepest aloneness so I could never be controlled by the fear of it again. I needed to let go of the anger and the pain. I needed to nurse myself and my kids back to health.
I am now almost a year into a new and wonderful relationship. One thing I have found is that there are some types of damage that can only be created and experienced in the context of an intimate relationship. And these types of damage can only be healed in the context of an intimate relationship that feels safe and where vulnerability and trust can grow. My girlfriend has also travelled a similar path. We are both learning to trust again, together.
You wanna know what beauty is? Beauty is looking into your lover’s eyes and seeing she trusts you so deeply that she is absolutely open and vulnerable all the way down. This depth of connection is worth facing all your fears to have. Heather, there is no guarantee of forever but this is the best way to get there. You have a choice to make: you can choose to face the possibility of going through a deep hurt that you have already shown you can survive to have a chance at forever or you can let fear win and shape the rest of your life. Just by the read I have of your character already, I know what you will choose. So your only question is: is the man you are with now the man who can create a safe place you can trust so deeply that you can commit yourself to being absolutely open and vulnerable all the way down?
henriette 32
Thanks EMK for @27. I bristle at the notion that women must have “something wrong with them” to attract abusive men; it smacks of blaming the victims and I’m glad you were quick to restate and clarify your position.
Goldie 33
@ St Stephen:
“I wonder why the women on here (particularly… Heather) are fretting over your guy falling out of love and walking out the relationship. … The comments generated here could nearly convince someone that only men fall out of love/quit relationships.”
Because someone has already done it to them in a way that left them scarred? Why are you getting on the defensive when this isn’t about you? geez.
@ Karl #23
“You’re making a false dichotomy.
Nice guys aren’t necessarily boring. Lousy guys aren’t necessarily exciting.”
YES, thank you!! I’m glad a man came out and said that, because coming from me, a woman, it would’ve sounded wrong. I’ve gone out with nice, boring guys, as in, they have no interests outside of eating, sleeping, and doing the necessary amount of housework such as mowing the lawn. Don’t want to try or learn new things. Since I was more or less a new thing to them (being an immigrant, which they hadn’t seen a lot of), I knew it wouldn’t have work. Besides, now that the kids are grown and I do not have a 24×7 job like I used to, I want to experience life. A guy that’s content with sitting on a couch all day long wouldn’t be a good fit. A lot of them don’t understand that they can get off the couch, live a little, and still remain nice guys. Then they turn around and blame women for “wanting drama”, “going for bad boys”, and, like one man said to me, “women want a man to make them laugh, what am I, a clown?” You don’t have to be a clown, but a sense of humor and a positive attitude won’t hurt. I really wish more people would understand that.
Fiona 34
I am not sure there is such thing as “too picky”. I have this accusation levelled at me all the time but I can’t magically have feelings for someone I don’t like just because they like me. If I could, I would because my life would be a lot easier but I can’t. I find the vast majority of men who are excited about me leave me cold and maybe one man every few years really does light my fire. Is that being picky? It would be if I were consciously choosing to feel that way but I’m not. I think that love is precious because it really is very rare. I am not sure it can be contrived. Is it me or is it men? Actually I think it’s life.
Jadafisk 35
13. Abusive men know how to introduce themselves and look “nice” at the beginning of the relationship to the point where they’re indistinguishable from other people the woman is dating. Abusers don’t walk around with “bad person” signs over their heads, nor do they necessarily have “rough tales” to tell at any opportunity to elicit sympathy. How do you think violent people get jobs and function in society? They do it by pretending to be regular folks.
Kathleen 36
Love Evans quote #27 !!! Regardless of an abusive childhood that brings us back into the present for the choices we make going forward
Joe 37
@ mara #25:
Since Karl is so informed and clever, I’m sure he knows that the oft-misquoted statistic regarding gender mortality is nuanced. Those (such as yourself) who fail to delve into the details assume that all men die younger, failing to take into account the fact that the men who die younger (due to factors such as riskier behavior) skew the average. By the time a couple reaches age 50, the difference is less than 4 years. Since Karl’s fiancee is more than 4 years older than he, he has a good case for his assumption that he will outlive her.
Happy Person 38
There’s this idea out there that some people are abusive, implying that others are not; that some people accept abuse, implying that others do not; that some people are healthy in their choices, implying that others are not.
I would propose that we all have been abusive, we’ve all been abused, we’ve all accepted abuse, we’ve all rejected abuse, we’ve all made healthy choices, we’ve all made unhealthy choices. It’s simply a matter of to what degree.
So we all have positive and negative things in ourselves to work with.
mara 39
@ Joe
I am aware of that.
Still, even past 50, men smoke more, drink more, eat more meat/cholesterol, drive faster and get into more mortal accident (at any age), get into fights, work in more dangerous environments and so…
For sure, the difference is less the older the couple is but still.
I don’t know many male widows
Patti 40
Thanks Evan. I just started reading your posts about a couple of months ago. Your advice about valuing myself and not putting up with bad behavior from men has finally taken root…for me it was actually getting cancer that made the difference. I lived through it and decided that I get a second chance at life and want someone who will treat me well. For 47 years I always went for the bad boys. Not anymore. Keep doing what you are doing. Every day new women discover your advice and we are so happy to hear it.
Daphne 41
@EMK, what about a guy who claims that he has changed and is a better man now ?
No, I didn’t take my player FWB back- but I need to hear what to say if he comes back.
Evan Marc Katz 42
@Daphne – Stay tuned to an entire blog post in coming weeks addressing your question about the ex who comes back. I think you’ll enjoy it.
Joe 43
@ mara: I don’t know very many 50-something Fight Club members. But then, I don’t really know any guys who get into fights, period. Of course, that could be because the first rule of Fight Club is that you don’t talk about Fight Club.
Karl R 44
Stephen asked: (#24)
“How can i become an exciting guy? Do i tell them some of my dark secrets to make them fall in love? How can i create mystery?”
Those three questions could fill a book.
First things first
This is not about making a woman fall in love with you. This is about getting your foot in the door, and keeping her interest long enough that she can get to know you (and either love you or dislike you based on that knowledge).
First impressions count. Stand out from the crowd. I realize you’re a unique individual … just like everyone else. Being unique isn’t enough. Other people have to notice.
The real trick is to draw people’s attention without looking like you’re trying to attract attention. In yoga class, I was the class clown. It was my goal to get the entire class to laugh out loud at least once. That blatantly obvious goal masked my secondary goal … I stood out from everyone else effortlessly.
Less is more
When talking about yourself, be a storyteller. You are not trying to accurately convey the details of your life. You’re trying to tell an interesting (and funny) story that’s relevant to the current conversation. Therefore, you should cut out any irrelevant detail. The only relevant details are the ones that move the story along. (The exception is humor. If a detail will get a laugh, it’s interesting specifically for that reason.)
Furthermore, by leaving details out, you’re adding mystery. I surprised my fiancée one day when I started telling an amusing (and relevant) story about my brother. She had heard numerous stories about my other family members, but my brother hadn’t been directly involved in any of those stories, so I didn’t bother to mention him.
It’s not what you say. It’s how you say it.
Why do you think I bother using bolt print, italics, headers, and line breaks? I could write this entire post as one long paragraph … and it would be painfully dull to read.
You could take an entire course on how to become an interesting public speaker. If you have not done so already, I recommend it.
You won’t be more interesting, but you will certainly seem that way.
Which people are interesting?
A few years ago, Evan put up a blog post talking about what made someone interesting. The two key factors he mentioned were passion and competence.
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/how-to-attract-women-like-a-rock-star-is-passion-and-skill/
I love my job. I love dancing. If you ask me about either of those, it has a transformative effect on me. I light up. I become more animated. I become fully engaged in the conversation. That sort of enthusiasm is infectious.
The things I talked about above still hold true. If I’m talking about my job (or dancing), I’m going to relate it to things people understand. No matter how much I love dancing, if I get bogged down in the technical details, it will be boring to anyone except another dancer.
Why I don’t do deep dark secrets
Despite the situation that Elizabeth mentioned (#20), revealing “dark secrets” seems like a high-risk, low-return strategy.
I don’t try to create this image of being a tormented soul with dark secrets. I’m more of a happy, well-adjusted, open-book kind of guy. If I actually have dark secrets, you’ll never know about it. If I’m telling my dates about them, they’re not secrets.
It’s my belief that most people have experienced something dark, painful or traumatic in their lives. Therefore, there’s a distinct possibility that you’ll reveal your “dark secret” that torments you … and the happy, well-adjusted person will casually mention their own experience … one that trumps yours.
At that point, you get downgraded from “mysterious” to “drama queen”.
Mara, when it comes to life expectancy, Joe’s estimate is rather accurate. My fiancée’s life expectancy is 4-5 years more than mine … and that doesn’t begin to cover our age spread.
Elizabeth 45
at Fiona #34….I fully agree. I am trying to remain very open-minded, and to notice the “nice guy”, not necessarily put so much emphasis on looks–but there does need to be that level of attraction. I don’t want to be picky at all. Not looking for someone super successful, but I do need a experience some chemistry there.
susan 46
there’s just one problem here – this implies that the ”nice guys” are actually interested in us/asking us out!
well in my case they aren’t. they put me firmly in the friend zone (from whence it is nigh on impossible to manoevre out!).
the ratbags charm and wheedle.
as for accepting/attracting…well I would suggest that even though it’s a broad generalisation, ”bad boys” love ”good girls”
I’m doing everything Evan suggests, and more. Still no nice ones wanting more than ”friends”.
Karl R 47
susan said: (#46)
“I would suggest that even though it’s a broad generalisation, ‘bad boys’ love ‘good girls’”
How are you defining “good girls”?
There’s a reason I ask. Having been in Stephen’s shoes, where I thought women avoided nice guys and pursued bad boys, I wasn’t nearly as much of a “nice” guy as I believed.
susan said: (#46)
“there’s just one problem here – this implies that the ‘nice guys’ are actually interested in us/asking us out! well in my case they aren’t.”
“the ratbags charm and wheedle.”
If I had to hazard a guess, you’re not giving men a clear indication that you’re interested in them.
Men don’t read minds. Unless we’re getting a fairly clear signal that you’re interested, we’ll assume you’re not. The nicer guys aren’t interested in damaging their reputations by annoying women who aren’t interested. We’ll save our charm for women who are.
The “ratbags” are less concerned about annoying women who aren’t interested.
susan said: (#46)
“I’m doing everything Evan suggests, and more. Still no nice ones wanting more than ‘friends’.”
Getting a good, long-term relationship is a time-consuming process. Doing everything right doesn’t eliminate that time. It does, however, shorten the process.
Saint Stephen 48
@Karl R
If you want to be a dating coach, you’ve got a client already.
Thanks for the detailed answer/explanation.
Leesa 49
Karl R @47. i agree with susan about bad boys being attracted to nice girls. i’ve written elsewhere that i’m still licking my wounds more than a year later after having been sucked in by a lying, cheating, using, player. a year after the end of it i still suffer from what i went through (his almost daily rejection and then him crawling back) and what he ended up doing (pissed off with another women). i stayed so long because i felt sorry for his suffering and thought, as paul (31) did, that my love would help him settle down in time. i can relate to the post traumatic stress that Paul (31) speaks about. i consider myself to be a nice girl – trusting, kind etc. i was like a loyal dog, i don’t drink etc, i did alot for him, i was wonderful with his kids, i’ve got my own money etc. i’d never met a guy like that before so was ill equipped for even having a clue that i could possibly be his “miss right now” girl. the women he left me for appears to be equally wholesome. she’s got two kids and is big into horse competitions. and although he told me his ex-wife was a bi*ch who cheated on him (i found out that he’d actually cheated on her), i actually found her to be very kind, loving and positive even after having put up with his shit for 15 years. so that’s what i mean when i say bad boys are attracted to good girls.
Karl R 50
Stephen, (#48)
I have no interest in being a dating coach, but a few years ago, Evan coached men as well as women. If you go back through the archives, you’ll find some highly relevant advice, and some highly relevant comments (as well as the usual level of vitriol).
Paraphrasing one of those pieces of advice:
“All a man needs to succeed at dating is a way to start a conversation, and the courage to fail.”
The advice I gave (above) is about the first half. Getting your foot in the door.
Leesa, (#49)
susan’s complaint (#46) seemed to be more about nice guys not asking her out, rather than scumbags asking her out.
I don’t hang out with men like the one you described. I have no idea what kind of women he seeks out. However, the women you describe (kind, loving, trusting) are the majority. He could end up with three in a row simply as statistical probability.
This blog post (like numerous others) is talking about getting rid of men who don’t treat you well. If you are doing everything right, you will attract good and bad men. If susan is only attracting lousy men, she needs to know what to do to attract the good ones, in addition to the lousy ones she’s already attracting.
Your comment (#49) is an interesting observation. But it doesn’t provide any advice as to how to solve susan’s issue.
Leesa 51
hi karl: i wasn’t trying to give susan advice, god knows i need advice and am no way equipped to give it. i was just giving my view on your question to susan in (47) “How are you defining “good girls”?”
but i really like what you had to say in the above post about good girls being the majority and therefore crap guys generally getting good girls just by statistics. i also appreciate what you had to say about nice men not reading minds and needing a clear signal. so thanks for that tip.
by the way, i really appreciate the male comments on this website. it’s funny, i generally scan through the comments and only read what the guys have to say. god knows i need all the male perspective i can get.
susan 52
Interesting discussion. Just to respond to karls comments
- i do beleive i’m doing everything right. I have certainly given clear indications to the ”nice guys” but I am, without exception, put firmly into the ”friends” basket by these ones almost immediately, usually with the explanation of either ”you are GREAT, and you deserve the best” et al, or , gee I hope we can be friends because I don’t have many friends, especially women (and then they proceed to dump all their own relationship angst on me….).
- attracting bad boys, well I can only speak from experience and they are quite open about their whims and predilections – which includes being attrracted to ”good girls”.
to define a good girl – they are the honest, regular girls with financial independence, a generous spirit and a whole life that dating is a part of not a primary focus in.
bad boys – they are the heart breakers, the charmers, and so on (more detail on my blog).
I have today delivered the EMK no-thanks-and-walk-away message AGAIN to the latest ”can we be friends becuase at the moment i’m just not ready for a relationship” guy. It hurts, it hurts. But I am determined to stick by it. I have enough friends. And I want an emotional commitment. I don’t think thats unreasonable. I’d put this guy in the nice guy category, he just got carried away in the moment and promised too much too early and now has changed his mind.
susan 53
p.s. Karl…great WCS dancing:)
Paul Mawdsley 54
A couple of years ago I was with a woman who had an 18 year old daughter who was a truly amazing young woman. She was very authentic and true to herself. She was deeply intuitive and self-aware on an emotional and social level. And she was very emotionally, empathically and intellectually mature beyond most of her peers. We had some of the most wonderful conversations about life.
She wasn’t just beautiful on the inside. She had looks that turned heads. She had no trouble getting guys to be interested in her. Her trouble was getting guys who weren’t intimidated buy her or who were anywhere near a match for her maturity.
The guys she dated tended to fall into two categories: nice guys with no emotional depth or complexity and guys with emotional depth and complexity but who were filled with angst and darkness. The first couldn’t match her emotional depth and complexity and the second couldn’t match her inner healthiness and goodness.
We talked about her inability to find a good match. It helped her to see things in a way that put the cause for her experience outside of her. It also helped her to know that she needed to be patient to find a guy who had a good, healthy core and had a healthy emotional depth and complexity.
My own sense is that women tend to grow more from a place of emotional depth, complexity and connectedness and men tend to grow more from a place of objective depth, complexity and centredness. This fits well with evolutionary psychology. As such, for the modern ideal relationships we are looking for, men need to develop emotional depth and complexity through the bonds they have with the women in their lives. If you want a good guy with emotional depth and complexity, you’re probably going to have to find a good guy who is willing and help him get there. Women tend to be a man’s emotional guides to depth and complexity. The healthiness of the women in his life is reflected in the level of emotional healthiness a man has.
Ana 55
Leesa (#49, #51),
If this is the first time that you’ve met a pua/player kind of guy, then you should stop beating yourself up, now!
In order to heal (and you will heal), I suggest you learn the skill of self-compassion from prof Neff of University of Texas.
This is her website:
http://www.self-compassion.org/
Then, another suggestion would be to educate yourself about player/pua community phenomenon, by reading The Game, The Rules of the Game, Mystery Method and some of the stuff from DaviddeAngello. You should also visit askmen.com.
However, if this is not the first time that you’ve experienced a ‘relationship’ with this kind of guy, maybe you could go to http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk to learn something about yourself and people that you surround yourself with.
I wish you all the best,
Ana
Leesa 56
hi ana, i really appreciate the tips and i will definitely read those links you gave me – i read everything people suggest on this site – i couldn’t buy evan’s book fast enough! it was the first time i had encountered a lying, cheating, using, player which is why i trusted him and believed everything he told me. but i wasn’t perfect in the relationship (i judged him in the beginning (but he turned out to be so much worse than my intuition even hinted at)) so that’s why i beat myself up. i should have not been compassionate to him but i had no idea what was really going on with him. normally i would never have met a person like that but i was out of my normal social environment and had never encountered a single “real manly man – physically solid, sexy, charming, wanting a long term relationship” (normally i’m surrounded by nerdy types). but he wasn’t a real man, he just made himself out to be a hero. i feel like i’ve seen it ALL now so am confident of not being conned ever again. and evan’s blog really helps me feel more confident about interpreting and dealing appropriately with any potential love interest i encounter in the future.
Paragon 57
I think one problem with identifying abusive males, is skewed perceptions, affected by other variables.
The pattern I trivially observe, is where behaviors/situations – which would conventionally be agreed upon as abusive – are underestimated in preference for partners with whom a woman shares extraordinary physical/sexual chemistry.
On the contrary, I often see women sabotage relationships through passive aggression, or by baiting less attractive partners into a defensive posture, which they later justify in very spurious terms as ‘abuse’.
But, I think it is becoming less controversial that abusive tendencies are seen(in the general case) as the privilege of the most sexually attractive males.
Leesa 58
i’ve just been reading “the player” section of askmen.com. that’s scary. looking back, that guy who sucked me in knew exactly what to do and say to make me fall hard fast for him. it came so naturally to him. all the lies and stories. they flowed off his tonge like nobody would think for a second that they were lies. i guess that’s why i feel the post traumatic stress at the shock and disgust of his depth of coniving deception. looking back, he was fast thinking on his feet. few women would be able to see through him which is why he has no problems getting decent women in succession or overlapping. and he’s 37. and for the sake of sex and security. i personally think guys like that are quite spiritually and emotionally sick and totally messed up.
Jadafisk 59
Paragon:
“But, I think it is becoming less controversial that abusive tendencies are seen(in the general case) as the privilege of the most sexually attractive males.”
Surely, you can deign to substantiate such a wild assertion.
Paul Mawdsley 60
Leesa, watch 9 1/2 Weeks. You will see him all over again. It’s narcissism combined with deep emotional intuition. He feeds on your positive vision of him and his sense of power while manipulating your feelings. It’s epidemic and works in both directions between the sexes. It’s what replaces healthy core self-esteem when it is absent. All that is left inside these people is a cold black hole that needs to use and consume those they can bring into their web.
Karl R 61
Jafadisk said: (#59)
“Surely, you can deign to substantiate such a wild assertion.”
Paragon said: (#57)
“The pattern I trivially observe, is where behaviors/situations – which would conventionally be agreed upon as abusive – are underestimated in preference for partners with whom a woman shares extraordinary physical/sexual chemistry.”
Jafadisk,
The statement (of Paragon’s #57) which you quoted is poorly worded. The one I quoted explains the what he means slightly better.
In other words, any outside observer would view the man as being an abusive jerk. However, the woman is willing to overlook his flaws and give him the benefit of the doubt … because he is sexually attractive. (The same can be observed when the sexes are reversed.)
I was able to find this excerpt with a quick search:
“You mentioned a word that stuck out in my mind. Chemistry. People talk about chemistry a lot in relationships. Especially those amazing relationships where you just feel this indescribable connection and ‘rightness’ with the other person.”
“Psychologists Jeffrey Young and Janet Klosko talk about chemistry in their book, Reinventing Your Life. The book describes how many of our childhood, social and family surroundings shape our sense of what feels ‘right’ in the world to us.”
“Humans have an amazing drive for consistency and very often we end up seeking out friends and partners who perpetuate that feeling of ‘rightness’, even when it’s incredibly painful to us.“
Personally, I’ve always found it amazing the amount of mental gymanstics women (and men) are willing to go through to see the “good” in a person who treats them badly … when they find that person attractive.
On the other hand, the same people will put no effort into seeing the “attractive” in a person who is genuinely good.
If they’re that skilled/practiced at self-deception, they should be able to make it work for them.
Paul Mawdsley 62
Karl R: “Personally, I’ve always found it amazing the amount of mental gymanstics women (and men) are willing to go through to see the “good” in a person who treats them badly … when they find that person attractive.
On the other hand, the same people will put no effort into seeing the “attractive” in a person who is genuinely good.”
Great observation!
I have also been struck by the fluency by which some people can see negative in an honest and true person who operates from a place of caring, respect and decency. It’s like creating a safe place for some people is the catalyst that releases ghosts of relationships past. From the perspective of someone who is open and caring, it feels like you don’t exist; your true motives and intentions are being skewed by the other person to be coming from a place of power, control and manipulation games. This is the post traumatic damage that is done and continues to haunt future relationships. Healthy relationships based on caring, connection and mutual respect for autonomy are impossible until the damage is dealt with and the power, control and manipulation lens can be brought into conscious control.
Paragon 63
@ Jadafisk
“Surely, you can deign to substantiate such a wild assertion.”
Absolutely.
“Good genes, mating effort, and delinquency”
(Martin L. Lalumièrea and Vernon L. Quinseyb
a Forensic Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, 250 College Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 1R8;b Department of Psychology, Queen’s University at Kingston, Humphrey Hall, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6.)
Some excerpts from the study(let me know if you would like a copy):
“High mating effort and antisocial and delinquent behaviors are closely linked. Some delinquent behaviors may honestly signal genetic quality. Men who exhibit high mating effort and who have high genetic quality would be expected to engage in more sexual coercion than other men because its costs to them are lowered by female preferences for them as sexual partners.
Gangestad & Simpson’s (G&S’s) theory of strategic pluralism
exemplifies selectionist thinking leading to novel and testable hypotheses. One of G&S’s central ideas is that males who display high genetic quality spend more energy than other males attracting new sexual partners (mating effort or ME) and less investment in providing for mate and offspring (parenting effort). The variation in the ratio of mating to parenting effort expended by males as a function of genetic quality is the result, in part, of females’ preference for males with high genetic quality, especially in the context of short-term mating. Males with good genes may even have an overall advantage in most mating contexts, because displaying good genes may be harder to fake than the promise of future parental investment. One strong prediction from G&S’s theory is that individual differences in male genetic quality will lead to female extra-pair mating in any species with biparental care. Landolt et al. (1995) found that men who scored high on a measure of “self-perceived mating success” more often selected shortterm mating tactics in a hypothetical dating situation than men who perceived themselves as less successful, particularly when the prospective partner was very attractive. Thus, as predicted by G&S’s theory of strategic pluralism, variation in men’s selfperceived mating success was associated with variation in mating tactics.
One intriguing and novel aspect of G&S’s theory is that high
male ME is seen as the result of high genetic quality and female choice rather than the result of competitive disadvantage in intermale competition. This is of particular interest because high ME is one of the most important correlates of both delinquency and sexual coercion among young men (e.g., Bogaert 1993; Elliott & Morse 1989; Flannery et al. 1993). In fact, Rowe’s construct deviance proneness includes behaviors associated with early onset of promiscuous sexual activities (e.g., Rowe et al. 1989). With regard to sexual coercion, men who report having been sexually coercive report more extensive sexual histories, including having more casual sex partners and earlier age of first intercourse, together with a greater preference for partner variety (reviewed in Quinsey & Lalumière 1995; Lalumière & Quinsey 1999). In one study, Simpson and Gangestad’s (1991) measure of unrestricted sexuality was one of the best measures distinguishing sexually coercive from nonsexually coercive young men (Lalumière & Quinsey 1996). Evolutionists usually consider both delinquency and sexual coercion to be alternative strategies used when competition for resources and status is unlikely to be successful (e.g., Rowe 1996; Thornhill & Thornhill 1983). As first sight then, G&S’s link between ME and good genes is paradoxical. But, of course, G&S do not attempt to explain all sources of variation in ME: their assertion is that increased ME may be expected of males with high genetic quality. Even so, is there a way to integrate the fact that delinquents engage in high ME into G&S’s theory of strategic pluralism?
We offer a few suggestions. First, ME and antisociality are intimately linked (Lalumière & Quinsey 1999; Rowe 1996). Antisociality represents behaviors, attitudes, beliefs, personality features, and interpersonal styles that are self-serving and generally harmful to others. Antisocial tendencies may be necessary to pursue a high ME strategy because this strategy involves not compromising with women’s preferences and often results in harm to their reproductive interests. Thus, high quality males who engage in a great deal of ME may develop an antisocial impersonal style that facilitates the successful pursuit of multiple sex partners. In this view, both ME and antisociality would sometimes result from high genetic quality.
Second, many delinquent acts could be viewed as signals of
good genes because they display qualities that are very hard to fake. Willingness to fight, robbery, and rule breaking display qualities such as physical strength, bravery, and willingness to incur risks. Being a gang leader displays social dominance. If these and other delinquent behaviours act as honest displays of good genes, and if good genes lead to greater ME, then the association between delinquency and ME is not so puzzling.
Female resistance to sexual advances may even serve as a “test” of some of the qualities of males with good genes, especially sexually dimorphic traits associated with low FA such as high body mass, muscularity/robustness, and dominance (G&S, sect. 4.4).
Our point is that the adoption of a high ME strategy
may be accompanied by an interpersonal style characterised
by antisociality, the use of sexually coercive tactics, and the use of behavioural displays that are hard to fake. If this is the case, then the association between delinquency and ME does not contradict G&S’s thesis.”
susan 64
I would be interested to know how the 5 love languages theory would play out here. Certainly for me (whose primary language of receipt is words of affirmation), this has played a huge part in the kind of men (actually relationships in general) that I have put energy into. the one who TALKS to me and tells me those things could be excused all kinds of misdemeanors!
Similarly I’m guessing that for those that value physical touch, the strong sexual chemistry is going to override other poor behaviours, or allow the person to make excuses.
The guy who showers a ”gift” person with flowers and chocolates will get away with more , and so on.
Note that i am talking here about the abusive/emotionally unintelligent, not your regular decent person who genuinely wants to connect with their partner.
and i think this would work in reverse too – lets not forget that their are many women who fit the ”user/abuser” category.
Paragon 65
@ Susan
“and i think this would work in reverse too – lets not forget that their are many women who fit the ”user/abuser” category.”
Maybe, but I think that this plays out in very different terms, between the sexes.
Namely, men tend to resent women who place them in the ‘friend zone’(even sometimes after marrying them, lol).
On the other hand, bemoaning sexual exploitation is hardly a popular male grievance.
I think this is why women tend to complain more about the men they *do* get, while men tend to complain more about the women they *don’t*.
Paul Mawdsley 66
Evan, thanks for your interesting articles and I appreciate gaining insight into your business model. Continued good luck.
PM
Jadafisk 67
So where does it prove that women evaluate coercive men as more attractive than other kinds? This seems to be the hypothesis, based on circular logic:
“Sexually coercive men that use high effort mating strategies are obviously more attractive than other kinds. How else are they getting all of that sex?”
Perhaps because they’re frightening or blackmailing women and/or young girls into sex acts, along with propositioning many more women than average? I’m certain that coercion is clearly defined within the study, but I’m not seeing that definition here. Link me the copy, I’m coming up with dead ends and journal paywalls when I attempt to find it myself.
Karl R 68
Jadafisk asked: (#67)
“So where does it prove that women evaluate coercive men as more attractive than other kinds?”
That wasn’t what you asked him to prove back in (#59). The statement you asked him to prove was (paraphrased, see #57):
More attractive men are permitted to be more sexually abusive/coercive.
Happy Person 69
Jadafisk 67: I’ve seen this kind of weird reasoning in other studies, too. That if people are getting laid (in this one) or getting noticed by the opposite sex (in another) that it’s because they’re more “attractive.” Bad studies because they aren’t considering other explanations for the result.
It’s so hard to combat myths of this sort. Generally I don’t care, except in situations where people are suggesting that females get raped because they’re sexually attractive or women don’t get married because they’re ugly. Or that attractive men don’t rape because they don’t “have to.”
Paragon 70
@ Jadafisk
“Landolt et al. (1995) found that men who scored high on a measure of “self-perceived mating success” more often selected shortterm mating tactics in a hypothetical dating situation than men who perceived themselves as less successful, particularly when the prospective partner was very attractive.
This is of particular interest because high ME is one of the most important correlates of both delinquency and sexual
coercion among young men (e.g., Bogaert 1993; Elliott & Morse 1989; Flannery et al. 1993).
With regard to sexual coercion, men who report having been sexually coercive report more extensive sexual histories,
including having more casual sex partners and earlier age of first intercourse, together with a greater preference for
partner variety (reviewed in Quinsey & Lalumière 1995; Lalumière & Quinsey 1999).”
It is important to note the the ‘shortterm mating tactics’ alluded to above, equates to high mating effort(ME), strategies which are strongly linked with sexual success.
It is also a well established concept(unified across dispirate fields of study) that shortterm mating is a function of
genetic benefits(reliably indicated through correlates of physical attractiveness).
Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that male attractiveness is a mitigating factor in the liability posed by employing such coercive tactics(unless you want to argue against any tendency where females demonstrate a preference for males who are ‘high-risk’, with respect to the above indicators).
@ Happy Person
“I’ve seen this kind of weird reasoning in other studies, too. That if people are getting laid (in this one) or getting
noticed by the opposite sex (in another) that it’s because they’re more “attractive.” Bad studies because they aren’t
considering other explanations for the result.”
And, in this case, what is the more plausible explanation?
“It’s so hard to combat myths of this sort. Generally I don’t care, except in situations where people are suggesting that
females get raped because they’re sexually attractive”
Which the data supports(even if we consider deviations – expected variance – and where some variance is a function of
opportunity – remember males are opportunistic in making qualitative concessions) – but let’s not go there, shall we?
“Or that attractive men don’t rape because they don’t “have to.””
Who’s making that argument here?
The study I cited is actually suggesting otherwise.
Jadafisk 71
68 Are you seeing proof that more attractive men are permitted to be more abusive in the data he’s provided thus far, Karl R?
70 Again, what do these “coercive tactics” entail? Also, did the scientists account for the possibility that men with a statistically higher level of delinquency who idealize a high partner count may also be more likely to construct tall tales regarding their sexual history, have a more inflated sense of their own attractiveness (apparently, their self esteem is all we have to go on in this regard), and/or pay women to have casual sex with them more often than regular folks?
Paragon 72
I don’t know.
But, I think they are merely unifying the data with a most likely explanation, given expectations, and an understanding for how these systems have been demonstrated to operate.
Lots of related studies here:
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/Psyc591Readings/GangestadSimpson2000.pdf
susan 73
oh Paragon I’m laughing my head off…i dated a man for a short time at the end of last year. it ended when he texted me later in the day having spent the weekend with me, to complain that he was so unlucky because he was yet to find a woman that he thought was suitable to marry. and there were no good women out there. apparantly i didn’t even feature. talk about complain about the women he didn’t get.
as an aside…he’s still single.
Karl R 74
Jafadisk asked: (#71)
“Are you seeing proof that more attractive men are permitted to be more abusive in the data he’s provided thus far, Karl R?”
I can’t tell if the studies prove it. The excerpts quoted might contain proof, but I can’t tell without seeing the definitions of the terms they are using.
I believe Paragon’s assertion is true, but I don’t believe the study he’s looking at (#63 & #70) proves the assertion.
The most recent study Paragon mentioned (#72) does indicate that women will accept an attractive man who only views the woman as a short-term mating prospect (which at least gets back to the men Evan was describing at the very beginning).
I didn’t read enough of the study to see how common this tendency is. It did specifically indicate that this could shift at different points in a person’s life.
The behavior which is accepted wouldn’t necessarily include abuse, but it would include infidelity. And Paragon has certainly made this point previously.
If you combine the two studies, you could infer that women will accept abuse from attractive men as well. It would require a separate study to determine how strong the correlation is, and whether causation is indicated.
Mia 75
Is it us or is it men? I think Evans advice to be open to men who are excited about us is sound. But my problem has honestly been that I’ve been TOO willing to give many men a chance, even when I knew we had nothing in common and wouldn’t be compatible. Ive been so afraid I’ll miss out on something that I give nice but wrong men for me too much of my time instead of thinking hard about my own needs ( and they’re not looks, money, or instant chemistry).
I know I’m not the only woman who struggles with this … My last bf is the best guy I know but dating him was an awful decision. We had been close friends and he adored me and was kind – after getting screwed so many times I thought that was enough. But it wasn’t — we had sex maybe once a month and for some reason it just never got to a deeper connection over 1 1/2 yrs. he was 34; I was 24. Still close friends and he just married a woman who is great fir him. Anyway, sometimes the hardest part is not walking away from the hot but bad boy, it’s walking away from the good but wrong guy.
sarahrahrah! 76
@ Paragon #70
“It is also a well established concept(unified across dispirate fields of study) that shortterm mating is a function of
genetic benefits(reliably indicated through correlates of physical attractiveness).”
I’m a member of an adoptive family. Growing up, I felt uneasy about this until I got older and realized how good looking all the other adoptees were. I cannot think of a single “ugly” adoptee that I grew up with and I do not think it was just coincidence. In particular, a disproportionately high percentage of these people were strong athletes. I suspect that our “daddies” who left our biological mothers alone and pregnant also inadvertently gifted us with physical resilience.