Dan Savage on the Virtues of Infidelity

Evan Marc Katz

Sex-Advice columnist Dan Savage, best known for his It Gets Better project, has spent 20 years telling us that monogamy is harder than we admit and promoting a sexual ethic that he thinks honors the reality – rather than the romantic ideal – of marriage. In Savage Love, his weekly column, he argues against the American obsession with strict fidelity to one partner. In its place he proposes something the article calls American Gay Male, after the gay community’s tolerance for pornography, fetishes and a variety of partnered arrangements, from strict monogamy to wide openness.

Savage believes that it is a mistake to treat monogamy (rather than honesty or joy or humor) as the main indicator of a successful marriage.

“The mistake that straight people made,” Savage says, “was imposing the monogamous expectation on men. Men were never expected to be monogamous. Men had concubines, mistresses and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided marriage had to be egalitar­ian and fairsey. And it’s been a disaster for marriage.”

Personally, I think Savage is right, but that most people rule with their heart instead of their head. There’s a huge difference between my wife telling me that she got drunk and hooked up on a business trip to Portugal than her telling me she’s in love with another man and leaving me. Honoring the greater entity known as the relationship is more important, more honest, and more realistic than 100% fidelity.

I’m not advocating for cheating, but a rethinking of what’s “effective”, given human desires, the value of a stable relationship, and the length of a lifetime commitment.

Explore the article here and share your thoughts in the comments below.

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108 Comments »Filed Under Sex

108 Responses to “Dan Savage on the Virtues of Infidelity”

1. Gem 1

   Interesting article.

   We can’t help our urges, and we should not lie to our partners about them. In some marriages, talking honestly about our needs will forestall or obviate affairs; in other marriages, the conversation may lead to an affair, but with permission. In both cases, honesty is the best policy.

   I agree with this statement. I think to marry and ignore the realism that one or both partners will continue to have desires for other people, at some point, is dangerous. Even if they don’t want to act on it, the desires are there. I think the more we require our partners to say, “No, honey, I can’t even imagine having sex with someone else.” The more invite the lie, the secrets of their private mind, and the dark fantasy for those desires.

   Being open about our desires, fantasies, kinks does strengthen a marriage. Often talking openly about these things brings the couple closer and strenthens their bond especially if they can bring those things into the marriage. And being allowed to voice them can make the desire to actually act outside of the marriage less necessary.
   “If you are expected to be monogamous and have one person be all things sexually for you, then you have to be whores for each other,” Savage says. “You have to be up for anything.”

   
   Agreed. People in long term relationships should be having the best sex of their lives because they know their partner so intimatly and well. They should KNOW all thier partner’s little dirty desires and be fulfilling them. While I don’t think someone should do a sexual act they find abhorrent or causes them pain that they’re not into, or emotional turmoil, I do think they should be doing everything else their partner wants whether it cranks their chain or not.
   
   
   It’s probably not a popular opinion but I also think partners should be available sexually to each other whenever the other wants them whether they are in the mood or not.  And do so enthusiastically because you love your partner and your relationship and want to foster a strong, connected one. Of course, not if there is sickness or some emotional distress.

   Ultimately, if a person KNOWS they cannot be happy in a monogamous relationship, they shouldn’t get into one. There are poly goups, swinger groups and just about everything other group in every state. It shouldn’t be that hard to find a like minded partner if it’s that important. Cheating behind your partner’s back when they trust and believe they have fidelity is unacceptable at all times.

2. Judy 2

   I have reread this article, and maybe I’m missing something here. However the messages from Evan in previuos articles have been (as I understand) that when choosing a boyfriend there are certain behaviors when we should walk away, and that infidelity was one reason not to stick around. Now I can be wrong, and maybe you didn’t say this, but that’s the assumption I was making. A once a week texting boyfriend is not a keeper, but one that has sex with others is ok? Yeah we all have urges, and I’m into talking about fantasies, but now we should relook at not expecting monogamy because males aren’t built that way? I’m uncomfortable with this. Yes I have heard jokes like monogamy was introduced to marriage at a time when people only lived to twenty, but really you would be ok with your wife having sex in Greece, than being emotionally bonded with another and leaving you? I guess I’m not cool, and wouldn’t be if my boyfriend cheats. Evan, I have always respected your opinions, this one I’m just not sure. Please explain.
   Thanks (fyi I told my bf I’m heading to Greece lol).

3. Evan Marc Katz 3

   I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be uncomfortable with this, Judy. Dan Savage simply makes the point that it may be more realistic and effective to not let the occasional sexual infidelity ruin the entire relationship. I have never been unfaithful, but I am inclined to agree with him in principle. Would I give up everything I’ve built with my wife and family because she committed an indiscretion and told me about it? I sure hope not. Savage suggests taking that principle to the next level, like gay men do – realizing that men aren’t wired for monogamy and instead of neutering them and putting them in a cage, understanding this and building a meaningful, lifetime relationship in spite of this. If you can’t do that, that’s your prerogative. But a big reason that there’s so much marital dissatisfaction is because men are being asked to do something that doesn’t come naturally. And if he lacks integrity or is too selfish or doesn’t see his relationship as a larger entity worth nourishing, that marriage will end in some form of infidelity or falling out of love. If you can’t understand the nuanced difference between what I just said and your interpretation “Evan says I should put up with a man who cheats on me and refuses to commit to me after six months”, I’m not going to explain any further. Reasonable people can disagree, but please interpret Savage’s point clearly. The real question isn’t whether this makes logical sense – it does – but whether it works as well in practice, given most people’s level of insecurity, mistrust and jealousy around this topic. With people who can handle it, it sounds like an elegant solution. With people who can’t, obviously, it’s not going to work.

4. AQ 4

   I agree with Judy – I think an indiscretion is not something that should be condoned because gay men are doing it – what about HIV and other diseases? The reason I would enter into a monogamous marriage is because I want unbelievable safe sex with a partner who wants to put as much effort into as me. I would hope that it is so good that neither of us wants to stray. I can see – don’t blow up the whole relationship if it happens and the relationship is otherwise good – but it would take a lot more effort to fix it and get back to where you were. I cannot see – that is okay because gay men said so. Sorry

5. Gina 5

   I know of people who have mutually agreed to have sex with others while in a committed relationship. These types of individuals are able to separate sex from the emotional attachment that (men morseso than women) usually develops afterwards. I am not able to do this. I have to have an emotional connection with a man before I can have sex with him. As a result, my primary relationship would be in danger if I engaged in a sexual relationship with someone else.

6. Ames 6

   I am open to considering this as very real for some men. But I would just as soon be single and have various lovers of my own than a serious relationship with a mate who cheats. What’s the point? Who knows what diseases they might being home? A female player is at least in control of how much protection she uses in her liasons.

7. Judy 7

   Thanks Evan for the response, and clarifying this point of view.  My interpretation may have come across as black and white(putting up with cheating,noncommital men). That is not what I meant, it just seemed to differ from what I thought you were originally saying what non negotionable behaviors were. This “new” way may aid the male species biological make up, but for the female species it would be very difficult to manouvere. No I would not end a healthy relationship due to a mistake made by a partner, however studies have shown that after extra marital affairs have been discovered, even with counselling a good percentage(not sure of accurate percentage) do not stay together. This may be due to the woman’s biological make up? But also taking note, women are now more involved in extra marital affairs so there goes the biological make up theory of mine )I also agree with AQ’s concern of disease etc. Thanks Evan for the clarification, on paper your interpretation makes sense. I’m just wondering in actuality how many couples would agree with this. That’s what makes this blog go round, everyones opinion is respected. Keep the articles coming!!

8. Sayanta 8

   This is the part of the article that really spoke to me:

   Judith Stacey, a New York University sociologist who researched gay men’s romantic arrangements for her book “Unhitched,” argues that gay men, in general, will continue to require less monogamy. “They are men,” she said, and she believes it is easier for them — right down to the physiology of orgasm — to separate physical and emotional intimacy. Lesbians and straight women tend to be far less comfortable with nonmonogamy than gay men. But what matters is that neither monogamy nor polygamy is humankind’s sole natural state. “One size never fits all, and it isn’t just dividing between men and women and gay and straight,” she said. “Monoga­my is not natural, nonmonogamy is not natural. Variation is what’s natural.”

9. helene 9

   I think there is a lot of hysteria around monogamy – we are so conditioned by society to see sexual infidelity as a tragedy that when it happens, we automatically kick into tragic mode. This is all unnecessary and unhelpful. That said, I think that the ASPIRATION to be monogamous is extremely important for most couples starting out together: it is what enables us to bond. It is absurd to imagine our beloved whispering words of love and desire in our ear one night, knowing that each of us has carte blanche to whisper the same things to someone else the next night!
   When we commit to being someone’s partner, we aspire to a lot of things – to be loving, supportive, generous, a good listener, do our share of the housework, to inspire them to meet their goals and to share their dreams. In all of these things, at some point, we inevitably fail, or at least fall short of what we hoped we would do. Our partners are not perfecr either. DOes this mean we should not aspire to these things? NO – but it does mean that we need to accept that we and our partners are not going to be perfect every minute of every day throughout our married life. As I see it, monogamy is just the same. We may aspire to it, but that doesn’t mean we will achieve it… and when we don’t, we should treat the disappointment the same was we do when our partners fail us in other respects. I suppose what I’m saying is there shouldn’t be a seperate category for sexual behaviour than for other behaviour. If your marriage vow was “I promise to be perfect at all times” how many of us would sign up to such a vow? It would seem absurd. We’d be setting ourselves up to fail. This is what we do when we automatically assume lifelong sexual fidelity from our partner. We might desire it, we botyh might aspire to it, but if our partner is not 100% perfect we’re going to go all tragic and walk out and say we’ve been irreprably betrayed? And if our partner did the same when we didn’t do our share of taking out the trash ??
   Clearly, someone who shows repeated lapses in this area, like someone who repeatedly doesn’t listen to us or repeatedly fails to do their share of the housework may end up being someone we decide we don’t want to stay with , but the occasional lapse should surely be something we can get over? I don’t think it is necessary to specify that its “OK” to seex sex outside the marriage – although that might work for some couples – all that’s necessary is to accept that in this area, like anything else, its a bit crazy to expect lifelong perfection.

10. starthrower68 10

    Fascinating question.  While I am obviously aware that this is a blog for dating and relationships, this seems to be one of those issues that make me think being married is not better than being single and unattached.  It just has a different set of issues.

11. Sherell 11

    No offense but using gay men as an example is a mistake.  Yes I agree that men are wired different then women and so in a hetero relationship you have to deal with the two different dynamics.  Men may not have historically been monogomist, but it was not so open and somewhat hidden and discrete.  Wth many gay men relationships as you say the sex with others is very open.

12. Annie 12

    Monogamny is not natural for males or females.

    However, monogamy is the best relationship model to follow. All other relationship models have been followed historically and society alway’s ends up reverting back to monogamy because pretty much anything else is disasterious.

    Problem is, people don’t know or nor care why it is important. We live in a society today, where people are questioning every single rule we’ve followed in Western society and rather than doing their research about cause and effect of their choices, they pretty much now make up the rules as they go along, and have NO understand of what is going to happen.

    For example, did you know that all sexually-free (civilized)societies end up matriachal. Do you know why? Is this what you want? What is the effect of a matriachal society do you think in comparison to what we have had?

    Comparing gay relationships to straight ones, is absolutely ridiculous. Gay sex does not result in a baby.(typical example of not thinking things through)

    Yes we all have urges, we can also control them. It’s why most of us don’t steal, even if we have the urge to take something that doesn’t belong to us.

    Can anyone say, WHY monogamy is important? Have any of you really thought about it? It’s much harder to control our urges, when we cannot come up with one rational reason as to why we should.

13. Gina 13

    I have lived in Eastern Europe and the middle east, as well as traveled all over the world. My personal observation has been that (generally speaking) many men who feel that  it is not a man’s nature to be monogamous, and who expect that their wives/girlfriends  should be more accepting in the event that they might want to have a sexual relationship with someone outside of their primary relationship, would NOT be as open or accepting if their wives/girlfriends wanted to pursue an outside sexual relationship with someone else. There’s definitely a double standard when it comes to men being monogamous versus women being monogamous.

    Although it may be unrealistic to expect lifelong monogamy in a relationship, there are consequences that can occur as a result of people who choose to engage in non-monogamous behavior. Arnold Swartzenegger and Marie Shriver are just one example.  I personally know women who have contracted STD’s as a result of the husband/boyfriend having more than one sexual partner. Some of these women knew that their partners were cheating, but since “boys will be boys”, they chose to turn the other cheek.

    Gay men can have sex with multiple partners and not develop an emotional attachment. However, women, by nature, often bond with a man after having sex. So although many may go into it thinking that it’s just for fun, they often end up becoming emotionally attached. Whereas, the man, who was simply interested in having a different sexual experience was simply having fun and had no intention of getting serious about the other woman.

14. JerseyGirl 14

    Actually, this is a huge cultural fallacy, about what men are *wired* for. It’s been the popular pop-science argument for those who think they are being so “evolved” and “edgy” to claim that men just aren’t *wired* to be in a monogomous relationship. When it’s actually the same old tired argument that’s been used since the beginning of time when as Dan Savage points out, men could more opennly degrade their monogmous relationships to step out with other women. So it’s funny to me that today we get jazzed up versions of “why it’s okay that men treat women like toilet paper” and people act like this is a brand new “evolved” concept like men haven’t been cheating since the dawn of time on their female partners. 

    That “wired” word is a tricky little word. What are we really “wired” for? The true scientific approach is to admit that humans, men and women, are infact “wired” for both approaches to a relationship. We actually have genes and hormones that either support the benefits of having many different partners but we also have genes and hormones that support the desire to be close to just one person. So when people say things like people just aren’t wired to behave one way over another, it’s stereotyping and limiting and pretty surprising coming from a a gay male in american that have had more then their fair share of labels thrown at them. Why is it okay to stereotype and degenerate the desire to be monogamous but if you put such limitations on people’s sexuality, you’d be called a “hater” of some kind?

    If you are a person that does not see the benefit or is incapable of being monogmous, then simply don’t get married or committ to one person. Or have a relationship where you set these rules before hand. However, it bugs me when people use this argument to point to others that do value monogomy and tell them they are being unrealistic. It all comes down to free will and choice. You ultimately choose what person you want to be. Is it harder to forgo your own self pleasure with temptation then not indulge?Absolutely. But what people seem to forget that that is the backbone of all things in life. Somehow we expect to work hard in our careers but we expect relationships to be easy. Wrong. Relationships take hard work if you value them enough.Men an women are “wired” for both approaches to a relationship. So trying to argue that one is “unnatural” over the other is scientifically (and thus naturally) wrong. 

    And if you think about it, is insulting to all the men out there that are happy in their committed monogomous relationships. Basically these men  are being told that they must not be normal men because *real* men are just not *wired* for monogomy. And women must put on their happyy faces and pretend this is going to lead them to better relationships while they are once again being fed sado masochistic “advice”. The message: You too can have a GREAT relationships, as long as you understand that your man NEEDS more women then just YOU”. Once again women are being asked to accept less then what they might deserve. So inbetween the whole, women should pick ulgy men articles, now women shouldn’t even expect monogomy because “men aren’t wired for it”. Also add in the fact that men want their partners prettier, in better shape and younger then themselves, and don’t even want to pay for dates anymore; you got to wonder how evolved we really are in 2011 vs 50 years ago when women were probably sold the same messages (except the paying part).

    As far as using men’s uses of mistresses and prostitues and the likes of that, that isn’t so much an argument for “nature” as it is for old cultural standards. Men were allowed and encouraged to indulge themselves. Women were not. Women’s sexuality was to be locked up and thrown away where mother and wives served one purpose and prostitutes served another. That set up has nothing to do with what is natural and everything to do with a social working system that was all about men being able to indulge themselves while limiting women. If JFK lived today, he would never have gotten away with the stuff he did only a few short decades ago.

    So when someone says that men weren’t meant to be monogmous, they aren’t talking about nature so much as old cultural standards and ideals because men and women have chemicals and benefits from both monogamous relationships and diversity in sexual partners. It comes down to what *you* choose. And that is really the whole point. It’s a choice.

15. Zann 15

    In my book, there’s a reason men and women are hard-wired differently, and that reason is because they bring a balance when they join forces. I realize that’s a very broad statement, and I honestly can’t say how it translates over into same-sex couples.  But I do know that I am weary of the men-must-stray mantra, and I wonder why more men aren’t offended by the simplistic, although supposedly “scientific,” conclusion that the male species just cannot keep its wild oats at home. It’s a cave man thing.

    Really?  

    I’m also weary of the glaring double-standard that says women can/should adapt to and accept that their men-will-be-men and that means they will pursue extra-marital sex. As if it’s a foregone conclusion, founded on rational analysis, conjuring up an image of the evolutionary chart, with the hunched-over Early Man, club in hand, shrugging and throwing up his hands and declaring, “I can’t help it, I’m a guy!”

    Well, humans used to eat their food with sticks, too, but we eventually found better tools, didn’t we?

    Marriages in this country are in a lot of trouble for so many different reasons, not just fidelity problems…financial stress, employment insecurity, addictions, the need for both parents to work full-time while trying to raise kids, unemployed family members moving in  – to name just a few. I do think we’ve outgrown the institution of marriage as it existed in the post-WWII era.

    But whether married or simply in a committed, non-married relationship, fidelity and commitment are why we consciously choose to couple, isn’t it? If you think you can’t handle one sex partner for the rest of your days, then don’t get into a monogamous relationship. As others have said here, there are other options. 

    I think the most compelling reason that men having extra-marital relationships is because they can, and they will continue to, as long as the safety net/excuse of biological predisposition is still touted as inevitable. When actually, it’s a matter of evolving.

16. pd 16

    You only have to log into an adult dating site like a friend of mine did about 3 years ago for a laugh and to see what was going on. She was surprised at the amount of married/partnered men who were only looking to spice up their life and nothing more. She received hundreds of emails that I must admit made us roll on the floor laughing at times along with the accompanying photo’s of a certain part of the male anatomy, also extremely funny from a womans point of view. Most of the emails sounded like a fantasy of what these men wanted and weren’t getting at home for one reason or another and there were lots of reasons!
    There were also women on the site but a lot of them turned out to be men in disguise, something to do with not having to pay the membership fee if you receive x amount of emails per month. I guess it’s hard to bury a credit card entry on your statement when there are other eyes who also check.
    Most of the men were very upfront about not wanting to leave their wives/partners, some of them were downright weird and into some heavy stuff.
    At first it was easy to call them dirty dogs and they should be kicked to the curb. But a very wise man once told me you never know what moves people in their minds.
    Is it right or wrong? I don’t know. Having been married for over 20 years I can only say that I was tempted on several occasions when I met someone that gave me that “wow” feeling. It happens, but the question is whether you do anything about it or not and that is between you and your conscience and your core beliefs. I’d like to say that I didn’t and kept to the high moral ground but I did cheat on my then husband with one man. The electricity was unbelievable and where is he now? Read some of Evans posts in regards to chemistry for the answer.
    My husband and I split up for other reasons that didn’t have anything to do with infidelity on either side.

17. Margo 17

    This article reeks of immorality. So does this post and the responses to it. If a man says to his wife that he would forgive her for hooking up with a man on a business trip, most would assume he would expect her to forgive him for the same transgression.

    Therefore, if my husband/bf said this to me, I would think he was setting the stage for cheating…

18. Francesca 18

    The thing is, for me, love and sex are intertwined. Sex introduces feelings, longings, desires for someone who may be a complete ass. The type of longings that make me stare at the ceiling desperately trying to go to sleep. Not to mention I love sex, I usually easily have a larger sex drive then my partners. 

    So having sex with someone who wasn’t my partner? I imagine I would fall in love with them. Dating for me = emotional rollercoaster. I would be obsessed with longing and that might be enough for me to forget that my rock, my stability, my life isn’t as good as a fling.

    I have no doubt that that’s one massive risk for me to take. I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable letting my partner take that either. Not seeing my boyfriend for days because he’s currently in lust with a new flavour of the month. No, no that’s not okay.  

    I have also tended to date conservative guys as well. For them to cheat would be a violation of a lot of their own morals, so I’d think something was wrong, big time.

19. Selena 19

    There is an assumption in this article that a solid, emotional relationship won’t be damaged by the occasional (sanctioned) sexual fling. Most cases of people seeking sex outside their relationship aren’t the result of drunken one-nighters while out of town – they involve acting on an attraction with someone they get to know. The grass starts to look greener over there. In many, many cases the person in a commited relationship leaves it for the “other woman” or “other man”.

    Both monogamy and infidelity are choices. If one chooses to be “flexible” when it comes to monogamy, then they better also be aware that a “little fling” could result in the demise of their relationship anyway, now matter how “cool” they were about such things.

20. Steve 20

    I’m not a scientist of any kind, but I found the book Sex At Dawn to be very easy to understand, funny, warm and provocative.   In the book two researchers review the science behind the argument for and against human being being naturally monogamous.    This book was fascinating and it will make you think.
     
    I’ve been reading Dan Savages column for years and I can’t recommend it enough.   Savage can often be offensive, but MORE often he is *funny*, warm, informative and he doesn’t give pat advice that you can predict.
     
    In a nutshell his philosophy about relationships is that not all people are cut out for monogamy,   people can be happier by working to accept that and speaking honestly with their partners about that.
     

21. JerseyGirl 21

    PD, it seems to me that a lot of people today want to live in “fantasy” lalala land over establishing and growing their real life relationships. Hence so many men on websites trying to live pornstar sex lives. Which would also account for the wacky stuff they might be into. Seems to me no one told these men that porn was fantasy, It use to be that porn was a “once in awhile thing”. Now guys look at it 24.7 and then wonder why real women don’t want to have sex with them. A combination of their unrealistic ideals and the fact that they stopped putting the work into treating their own partner a certain way that might get her to engage with him more instead of just using women to masterbate to. 

    Margo, I agree with people say things like “well if my partner did this, I would forgive them..” that they are a little bit setting it up for putting themselves in that same position and wanting to be forgiving. It’s like sometimes how someone in a relationship will accuse someone else of cheating and sometimes the one accusing the other person is actually the one cheating.

22. ckay 22

    I think articles like this set up, again, that whole BS about the untameable, unblameable male libido.  

    HARDLY EVER, in articles like this, do the writers speak to how there are SOME women who struggle into monogamy.  Their struggle may be for different reasons, but men aren’t alone in the ‘struggle.’ We have eyes ,too. We lust, also.  I get really tired of guys complaining that it’s hard to do.  Solution:  get with a partner who doesn’t require it, live with integrity.  <–Now, that solution doesn’t work if the woman wants to have outside relations, though. O_o 

    Any type of relationship can work if there is honesty and integrity about who we are individually and what we want our relationship to be.  The problemo is that most people are dishonest about their urges and intentions and when you mix in jealousy, things just go crazy. 

    Articles like this totally negate patriarchy and socialization.  Savage is sitting up here telling us women that’ because it’s always done, it should continue being done.” Nope. Isn’t that one of those dumb arguments people sometimes use to keep others oppressed and unthinking?

    Patriarchy tells women men are entitled to outside partners, because “that’s how it’s always been.”  It’s the same system that neuters female sexuality that places supreme primacy on virginity.   It also tells us women that our sexuality is tame, by nature. Socialization makes it very hard to assert to the male ego that his woman may desire someone, besides himself. 

    Gosh, I’m coming off sounding like a feminist, lol…and I don’t think I am. But in articles like these, I always want more balance.  More balance!!

23. BeenThereDoneThat 23

    Zann at 15 said:
    If you think you can’t handle one sex partner for the rest of your days, then don’t get into a monogamous relationship.
    I read Dan Savage and this is exactly what he says as well.  You need to be honest with your partner about who you are, what you like, what turns you on; if the other person isn’t accepting of what you want, then they aren’t the one for you.  this goes for sexual kinks as well as monogamy.
    There are people (not just men) are are not monogamous.  I do believe its a choice they make.  We are responsible for our actions.
    I was cheated on – and I mean that we did not have any expectation of an open relationship that we had agreed upon.  Having experienced that I will say: EVAN: in the abstract it’s a LOT easier to say you would be ok with a drunken one night stand.  It is much more difficult to do so in reality.   Also, my philandering spouse would not have been accepting of me having sex with other men.  I did have opportunities but I had made a commitment and knowing I would cause him pain were just some of the things that made it easy to pass.   Sadly, those things did not mean as much to him.  Interestingly, he left for the “other” woman; she does believe in open relationships and when he balked at her sleeping with others (something he knew was going to happen), she told him to get on board or get lost.  And now, after 4 years of his open relationship, he really wants another chance with monogamous me.  I am going to pass.
    And, yes, I believe in being GGG; have no issue with being available for sex at almost any time and being open to trying new things. But I’m looking for monogamy – if you don’t think you can do, then we aren’t suited for each other and need to keep looking.
     

24. Happy 24

    Annie #12 very insightful post, I agree with just about everything you’ve said.  (I’m not quite so sure that patriarchy is better than matriarchy, if that’s what you meant, but I’m not gonna go there right now…..)
    along with yours, some of my thoughts on the subject at hand….
    To my mind, much of the journey of human evolution involves growing into a seasoned, well-rounded maturity, while retaining a sense of awe, wonder and innocence.  Like coming full circle, but ending up so much more self-actualized, conscious, aware, and with greater wisdom.
    To a large extent, this includes being able to manage one’s likes and dislikes and urges, and to sublimate them into something larger and more profound than the perpetual quest to indulge our individual preferences.
    No, this is not some religious puritanical hoo-ha.
    It’s about really exploring and discovering more about ourselves and evolution, rather than just living simply to indulge our human animalistic primate tendencies in order to achieve repeated episodes of gratification. Even if they are rationalized by such tired notions as “humans are not meant to be monogamous.”
    Apparently, and correct me if I’m mistaken, Oppenheimer attributes Savage offering non-monogamy as a panacea to boredom, despair, lack of variety, sexual death and being taken for granted.
    Looking outside of a committed relationship for these things is only a quick fix, at best.  It’s not getting to the root cause of these conditions, which is, one, taking these conditions way too seriously, and not acknowledging that all emotions, thoughts, states, and everything, comes and goes and changes constantly.  The best we can strive for is equanimity in dealing with whatever life throws our way, not new and improved belief systems and more snake oil.
    That being said, I do have a belief system that engaging in sexual intimacy outside of a committed primary relationship agreement is just plain greedy.  And really, greed is not so good. So you don’t get to have anal sex because your partner doesn’t want to. So what? Get over it.  Many times a sexual fantasy can better than than the real thing turns out to be anyway.
    I will be with my life partner because of many factors. Having all of my sexual fantasies played out is not at the top of my list, and I would hope it’s not at the top of my partner’s,either.  I certainly aim, however, (to quote Savage’s acronym “G.G.G.”),  to be “good, giving and game”. But…consider.  Do you really need to eat all the candy in the candy store, too? Really ?
    In closing, I’d like to say that this, from the NYTimes article, really speaks to me:
    “Throughout your lives, you share so many things with other people; your time, your friendship, your charity.  Your sex life is the one thing that belongs only to you and your partner. This intimacy, this special trust, is what separates your married (or committed) relationship from all others in your lives.  It is the one thing you share only with each other.”

25. Zann 25

    JerseyGirl @ #14:

    “Somehow we expect to work hard in our careers but we expect relationships to be easy. Wrong. Relationships take hard work if you value them enough.Men an women are “wired” for both approaches to a relationship.”

    Well said. Men don’t own the market on urges…we all have them. But Geez Louise, must the modern adult be allowed to indulge his/her every urge in order to sustain emotional well being? Personally, I like the free will that comes with being an adult and being able to make my own choices when it comes to intimate relationships, whether monogamous or polyamorous. Different strokes. What I don’t like is when someone presents themselves as searching for The One, when really what they’re hoping for is The One Plus Others As The Urge Arises. Like they say: great work if you can get it. I mean, really, who wouldn’t want that? But that doesn’t mean I’m entitled to it or should feel I deserve it, even if that means hurting my significant other.

    Don’t want the confines of a monogamous relationship? Then don’t have one. My observation of polyamorous relationships is that they don’t work for the majority of adults, and when it does, it requires a lot of effort, honesty, and sensitivity to the feelings of others, just like quality monogamous relationships do. If you don’t want to do the work required to form lasting, quality relationships, maybe what’s best for you (and everyone involved with you) is the serial no-strings-attached life. Be clear about that and then be sure others you are pursuing are clear about it.

26. Daphne 26

    Dan Savage obviously has never been cheated on. If he had been, he would know what it feels like and not think that this model of relationship brings about “stability” for the kids.
    What it brought for my kids was a depressed and overweight mother, who was habitually withdrawn, who was uninterested in having sex because it’s insulting when your husband starts doing new things that he learned from his other partners.
    Men have impulses toward non-monogamy ? And they must express those impulses ? Well, I have impulses on buying out the front window of Neiman Marcus, and I’m not going to act on that. Trotting out the old “human nature” and history of humanity argument is not impressive either- look at some of the other things humans have done historically.
    I am so glad I got divorced, and so convinced that Dan Savage just does not get it.

27. Karl R 27

    I think Dan Savage has some good points that get lost in the controversy.

    Be non-judgmental:
    If my partner is afraid of me judging her, then she won’t be honest with me. The same is true in the other direction. You don’t have to understand the other person’s point of view, but you do have to be willing to see them as an equal after they’ve opened up.

    Otherwise, you’ll never hear about these things. It’s easy for your partner to keep quiet. It’s not to my advantage to have my partner keep secrets from me.

    Don’t assume monagamy is the only option:
    When I was younger, I had two men explicitly tell me that it was fine with them if I had sex with their wives. Another man bragged to me that he and his wife had an open marriage, and his wife later confirmed it.

    Each of those marriages lasted over ten years. (I lost touch with most of them, but I’m not aware that any ended in a divorce.) Non-monogamy works for some people.

    Unless I discuss the issue with my partner, I don’t know where she stands. I can’t assume that she prefers monogamy.

    Know where you stand:
    I’m too jealous to share my fiancée with another man. Therefore, I want a monogamous relationship. I know there are non-monogamous couple out there, and that works for them. But that’s not the kind of person I am.

    I’ve seen couples try non-monogamy and have things fail because one person later realized they weren’t okay with it. If you think you’re okay with it and guess incorrectly, you’re going to hurt your relationship.

    Monogamy isn’t a yes/no issue:
    My fiancée and I are monogamous, but we regularly dance with other people (and not just polite formal dancing). Some people would find that to be a threat to the exclusivity of the relationship.

    We’re also both okay with the other one watching porn.

    Whether you decide that you want monogamy or non-monogamy, you have to reach a mutual agreement as to what that means for you as a couple.

    Monogamy requires you to fulfill all of your partners needs:
    A comedian had a routine where he talked about cheating on his ex-wife. When he married her, he had readily agreed that he was only going to have sex with her for the rest of his life.

    Then his wife decided to stop having sex.

    The comedian had agreed to monogamy, not celibacy.

    As Gem (#1) said, that may mean having sex when you’re not in the mood, or performing sex acts that really don’t do much for you, because that’s what will make your partner happy.

    I don’t understand why the young man in the article got turned on by having birthday cakes smashed in his face. But I wouldn’t find it painful or abhorent or unsafe to do that to my partner, so I would be willing to do that sort of thing to make my partner happy.

    I see it as an act of equality in a relationship. If I want my fiancée to do the things that I enjoy, I better be willing to do the same for her.

    And if I’m unwilling to do things just because my fiancée enjoys them, I’m going to have to find a partner who enjoys the exact same things that I do.

28. nathan 28

    I have a few responses to the article. First off, I can think of several gay men I know who are in long term partnerships and who wouldn’t react positively to cheating. They’re in it for the long term, and some have been, for many years. So, perhaps there is research that points to gay men being less focused on a single partner, but I think a fair number would disagree with parts of Savage’s column.
    The whole men aren’t “hardwired” for monogamy argument is tired, and an easy excuse to use to justify decisions that probably have no justification.
    When it comes to monogamy or forms of polyandry, the way I see it, it’s incumbent upon those involved to be clear and honest with each other, to make decisions together about what the relationship is about, and then to honor those decisions through your behavior. It’s the lack of honoring those commitments, and a willingness to be honest about your needs and views that cause trouble. The lies, cheating, undercover porn viewing, and the rest are all about failures of intimacy, regardless of the form of relationship.
    I have had a few friends who were in long term relationships with multiple partners, and they consistently spoke of the need for everything to be “above board,” so that no one is taken by surprise. Now, honestly, I believe that polyandrous relationships are probably more difficult to sustain over the long run because more than 2 people are involved, which makes things more complicated. But at the same time, I’m not willing to outright condemn them as people simply screwing around or people who are unwilling to commit. Certainly, some folks use the idea of polyandry as an excuse for screwing around and getting off. However, I do think there are folks who can pull polyandrous relationships off well for the long run, and I support them, even if I have no interest in having multiple partners myself.
     
     
     
     

29. Ellie 29

    As a late-20-something female, you just reaffirmed why I shouldn’t get married. It’s just another excuse for selfish behavior.

30. J 30

    Completely agree (and I’m a woman). Brave post, Evan! Everyone should read “Sex at Dawn”.

31. Evan Marc Katz 31

    Is this article indicative of a patriarchy? A master plan among men? A ridiculous, sexist, obvious ploy by me to be able to cheat on my wife (by writing about it in a public forum and discussing it with her over dinner)?

    Strangely, these are all among the things you’ve suggested, instead of the more obvious answer: Savage’s take is based in reality – a reality where both men and women live for 80+ years and continue to sexually desire other people, even if they don’t want to destroy their healthy, loving, long-term relationships.

    Does anyone dispute this fact?

    It’s not man thing, or a gay man thing, or a skeevy, conniving liar thing – it’s a people thing, driven by biological evolution as outlined in “Sex at Dawn”.

    Savage merely suggests moving the needle to acknowledging and understanding this fact so that an indiscretion doesn’t necessarily ruin the relationship.

    Millions of people would never have intimate relations outside marriage because they don’t want to risk losing their marriages. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t want to. Savage says that by bringing this to the surface and not making the desire for sexual variety so taboo, perhaps we can have even healthier marriages – instead of asking people to lie or commit secret infidelity.

    Once again, I’d need some stronger evidence that this is a viable option that wouldn’t ruin a marriage, but, in principle, it makes sense.

    I remember a study that said that women prefer variety within a committed relationship, where men prefer a variety of women. Sounds pretty accurate to me. The question is what, if anything, can be done about this truth?

    Because right now, 20% of men are making commitments that they don’t always keep. 14% of women are doing the same. Perhaps a shift of understanding is in order, instead of saying that the happily married Savage, happily married Katz, and all men are despicable for even broaching the subject.

     

32. JerseyGirl 32

    No one said you, Dan Savage, or men in general were “despicable” Evan. I think a lot of women are just sick and tired of being told how much men need variety. Cut us women a break. Don’t marry hadnsome guys..don’t marry rich guys….be younger and prettier..be more like men with breasts… then when your mate wants to bang another woman, shut up and understand because men need to treat women like a box of Godiva chocolate. But be sure to be open and vulnerable with him despite the fact that your just the candy of the month until his fancy is turned by someone newer.

    The point of this discussion is about being honest about ones needs right? Doesn’t that include people being honest about being cheated on makes them feel? If someone cheats on their partner, no matter what issues are going in the relationships, even if they hide things from their partner that they felt they couldn’t tell them, that is ultimately their choice to cheat. All this bull coddling business about how a partner acted out because they couldn’t be honest with their partner is childish. It’s one thing to have a hard time being honest about your needs in a relationship, but it’s another if you use that difficultly to instead act out in other ways then act like it’s your partner partial fault. Things aren’t always easy to say. Partners aren’t mind readers. If you aren’t getting something met in the relationship, you need to suck it up and talk about it. Perhaps the advice hsould be more about that then how people should understand when someone uses excuses to not meet a problem head on and instead escapes with other people. 

    My parents where married for 35 years until my father passed away just about two years ago now. My parents where completely committed to each other. You claiming that we should listen to you and Dan because your both happily married men would be like me telling you, you should listen to my parents because they were happily monogomously married. And neither of my parents would have ever advocated relationships where it was okay to cheat “sometimes”. 

    But all and all, this isn’t new information. Dan isn’t saying anything all that new or earth shattering. This isn’t a new approach to relationships. Go back to articles and advice dating 20-30-40 years, and the same issues are still at play. The same questions.  Are we monogomous/are we not. The real truth is that we are not “wired” one way over another. Because we have biochemistry and biological imperitives that have strength both in variety and monogomy. It comes down to what you choose to do. And millions of people are infact in relatoinships where someone cheated and they are working on trying to save the marriage.Infact, stastically, women tend to be more forgiving for men cheating on them then men are of women. Which I am sure you are familiar with. 

    Maybe the shift isn’t about becoming more open to free spirited relationships where it’s okay to have indiscretions. Maybe the shift is about adults growing up and realizing that being in a committed relationships are just that. Commmitted. Physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. Advising people that letting an indiscreation “go” is the best way to approach their relaitonship isn’t any better then advising people that monogomy is the only way to approach a relationship either. And other then that, how many “indiscreations” are “correct” and “healthy” in a relationship anyway?

33. Shouraku 33

    Please note, this is my personal opinion and life choice, I am in no way attempting to lecture or judge others. I am merely stating what has worked for me personally:

    I have no desire to argue what men/women are “wired” for or if a less monogamous relationship model is emotionally beneficial. To me it is a moot issue. In the words of Nicholas Taleb:

    “These models are like potentially helpful medicines that carry random but very severe side effects.”

    One thing I have learned in life (and thankfully been able to avoid personally) is that even if you take all proper precautions, sex caries rare but devastating consequences. There are very few things in life that are completely irreversible, but children and incurable STDs are in that category and both can result from sex.
     
    Condoms break. Birth control fails. Those the chance of this happening is rare, when it does you could very well be stuck with the consequences for the rest of your life. If your partner does not realize that they have an STD, the STD test was faulty or the condom breaks and they bring home an incurable disease to you, you can’t “communicate”, “open up” and “discuss” your way out of it.
     
    If your husband accidentally gets another woman pregnant due to faulty birth control and she decides to keep the child, then he is now a father. That is not going to go away. You may end up having to help pay for your husband’s illegitimate child.
     
    Obviously, you are risking such situations simply by sleeping with your partner in the first place, however, with each extra person that you and your partner are intimate with you are increasing your chance of life changing consequences.
     
    I agree that monogamy is hard. But you know what is ever harder? AIDS
     
    There are plenty of gorgeous men that have come on to me that I would love to have slept with. But I have successfully kept my life time number of partners relatively low for a variety of reason including safety. And if I get ever decide to get married, I would want to follow a monogamous plan, not just for social/emotional reasons, but to attempt to preserve my partner’s and my personal safety.
     
    If I ever had a partner cheat on me, I would like to think that I would handle it in the mature and understanding manner that Evan and his wife support. I would like to think that I would forgive a one time accidental (not premeditated) screw up. However, I would still be very disappointed that my partner “accidentally” put us at risk of serious consequences.

34. Ruby 34

    I’ve read Dan Savage’s column for years, and it has always struck me that sometimes his advice is spot-on, and others times, well, it’s off the mark. I will say that the only couples I’ve ever known who have successfully navigated non-monogamy were gay males. However, for most know gay male couples I know, infidelity would be considered a betrayal. A friend of mine in a long relationship cheated on her husband and when he found out, he was completely devastated. The fact that he was a man didn’t mitigate anything. 

    So what if monogamy isn’t easy? What’s easy? Being single? Getting divorced? A polyamorous relationship in which one partner ends up falling in love with someone else? Nothing worthwhile is easy over the long haul. Just because some people aren’t capable of honoring their commitments, or marry for the wrong reasons, does that make commitment or fidelity wrong? That’s not to say that one size fits all. If polyamory works for both people, that’s fine. but for the majority of couples, it is not a workable solution. 

35. Lisa M. 35

    “Once again, I’d need some stronger evidence that this is a viable option that wouldn’t ruin a marriage, but, in principle, it makes sense.”

    Yeah, I agree it does make sense in theory.  And I also think that our society should reexamine it’s view on marriage and monogamy.  We may need to make some changes. 

    “Because right now, 20% of men are making commitments that they don’t always keep. 14% of women are doing the same. Perhaps a shift of understanding is in order, instead of saying that the happily married Savage, happily
    married Katz, and all men are despicable for even broaching the subject.”

    This.  There is a popular website that caters to married people who are looking for extramarital affairs. And according the owner of the this particular site – the numbers between the men and women who sign up for their services are just about equal.  So, in my opinion, it’s time that we really took another look at marriage and monogamy.

36. Karl R 36

    JerseyGirl said: (#32)
    “If someone cheats on their partner, no matter what issues are going in the relationships, even if they hide things from their partner that they felt they couldn’t tell them, that is ultimately their choice to cheat. All this bull coddling business about how a partner acted out because they couldn’t be honest with their partner is childish.”

    One of my close friends cheated on her boyfriend. She freely admits that it was ultimately her choice to cheat. But I have a hard time putting myself in her shoes and then claiming that her story is “bull coddling business.”

    Around this period of time, my friend’s mother was dying of cancer. She lived on the same street as her mother, and was very much part of her life. As you might expect, this was a very difficult time for my friend. She was typically emotional, depressed, weepy and exhausted.

    My friend’s boyfriend was unsympathetic and unsupportive. He told her, “Stop being such a baby about this,” and routinely mocked her for being emotional. Each time she (directly or indirectly) expressed her need for emotional support, she would receive demeaning comments instead.

    Eventually she ended up having an affair with a coworker who did provide the basic human compassion she was looking for.

    Their relationship had been falling apart before her mother’s cancer came back, and the affair (which was never discovered) was just one part of the relationship’s demise.

    Clearly my friend didn’t handle the situation in the manner which had the most integrity. But I don’t see the boyfriend as being an innocent victim of her indiscretion.

    I’ve been cheated on before. I don’t know whether that relationship could have recovered from that breach of trust, but it certainly didn’t recover before it ended. But what I learned from my friend’s story is that I have some control over whether I get cheated on in the future. I can’t prevent my partner from cheating, but I can create an environment where cheating is more likely (or less likely) to occur.

37. Margo 37

    Evan says: I remember a study that said that women prefer variety within a committed relationship, where men prefer a variety of women. Sounds pretty accurate to me. The question is what, if anything, can be done about this truth?

    In regards to women’s preference (as contended above), variety can be introduced into the marriage.

    In regards to men’s preference, (as contended above) nothing can be done, unless they want to lose their marriage…

    Marriage is monogamous by it’s very definition. To Evan and the rest of you men on here who are contemplating what you can do to change that, compromise, justify to fulfill your selfish desires-and they are selfish-you shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth.

    You cannot have it both ways. You’re either all in, or you’re not. It’s that simple.

38. Bree Talon 38

    According to Oppenheimer, Judith Stacey says that “not all good relationships require monogamy, but they all require what she calls integrity.”       
    To me, that is the point Dan Savage is making. Not that it’s okay to cheat on your partner, or that it’s okay if your partner cheats on you – or that there’s one right or wrong way to view it if it happens. He’s giving us more ways to look at a very charged issue. I think that regardless of your situation, gender, sexual preference or relationship status, you must choose a partner who values honesty and integrity – both with themselves, and with you. 
    In friendships, business and love relationships, it has been my experience that when there was honesty and open communication, no one was expected to be “perfect” and though there were consequences to indescretions and bad behavior that often took hard work to overcome, the relationship could survive. Sometimes it didn’t, and that’s life. 
    Without clear channels of communication, how can we build any kind of foundation for a lasting, healthy relationship? And everyone is so unique, with their own preferences and needs - do we truly love the person we’re with for themselves, or for ourselves?  How many people get into a relationship expecting someone to meet all their needs? How about taking responsibility for some of our needs and issues before putting them onto our partner…self-reflection and the process of self-gowth creates a lot of internal integrity, which leads to better communication with our partners as well.

39. Dame 39

    @24

    Thanks.

    I’m not sure of the answers myself, I do believe in Monogamy now more than I used to, because I’ve really tried to learn and read more about it, especially considering our horrendous divorce rates and how many people seemed to be getting hurt in relationships these day’s.

    I don’t know if matriachy or patriachy are better, or that we can’t find some combination of the two. To me, it’s more about just knowing what does happen, when you change the rules, and people aren’t expecting it.

    There are far-reaching consequences of this stuff and it worries me, when we just go with “what feels good for our urges”.

    @31 Evan

    I agree being honest about how difficult it may be, is something worth exploring as is different relationship types if that’s what you really want.

    But the question still remains, what problems are created not just in relationships but in the bigger context of society, if we give into these urges.

    It is entirely realistic for people to control them. However, I do not think it is realistic, if people cannot come up with any reason as to why they should.

    And as to your comment that women want variety in the relationship. I think you’ll find as more and more women get in “touch” with their more primitive sexual urges, you will find that women are more likely to get bored with one man, than men are. I would not be surprised to find more women cheating these day’s than men, but men stick their heads in the sand about this, because they want to believe they’ve gotten their hands on a “good girl” and she would “never be like a slut”.

    Read the book women’s infidelity. Show’s a whole other picture.

40. Selena 40

    I thought the stats for infidelity were much higher than this, but I’ll use yours anyway EMK.

    If 20% of men are making commitments the don’t (not saying can’t) keep, as are 14% of women -  that means 80% of men, and 86% of women ARE keeping those commitments. What does that say?

41. Selena 41

    And Ruby, great points in #34.

    So monogamy is hard? Harder than being single? Harder than divorcing?

    If it’s that hard, why do people of both genders keep choosing it as the preferred way they want to live?

42. Lisa M. 42

    “I would not be surprised to find more women cheating these day’s than men, but men stick their heads in the sand about this, because they want to believe they’ve gotten their hands on a “good girl” and she would “never be like a slut”.”

    Good point. Men stick their heads in the sand about female infidelity (and this my opinion) because by acknowledging that women are just as likely to cheat on them, it would make them more careful not to stray (and we know how men love to have their cake and eat it too) and as we know men have a harder time forgiving infidelity. So, they choose to ignore the fact we also possess these same urges. This then makes it easier for them to cheat all they want without feeling of consquence.

    Other thing about women that men choose to stick their heads in the sand about is that older women really prefer younger men. Women have been socialized to not pursue relationship with younger males. I believe there a natural inclination for older women and younger men to be attracted to each other. It makes perfect sense in some ways and one way being that they are peaking sexually at the same time. There is less of a stigma on the younger man/older woman relationship these days and I think that older women should give younger men greater consideration. For me, now that I’m thirty-six I only find men in their twenties and early thirties more desirable. A week ago, an attractive man in his late forties approached me for a date and I just wasn’t interested due to his age. I get hit on by guys in their twenties (and teens too) all the time, so what the hell. I mean, if they have themselves together I’m going to go for it. I have very little interest in older men which is probably why it doesn’t faze me when they talk about only wanting women under thirty-five. I don’t want them anyway.

43. starthrower68 43

    We live in an age where our feelings are facts and that’s how many conduct their lives.  We stop giving in to every impulse when we become adults.  We don’t live our lives with intention and just go with what we want at the moment and it often has negative consequences, but then we wonder how we got into a bad situation. If a spouse has an “indiscretion”, it takes a very short time to shatter trust and a very long time to restore it if it can be done at all.  I can’t say that I would leave a spouse over one slip-up but if it happened more than once, then it’s time to leave it.

44. Evan Marc Katz 44

    Interesting and relevant critique of Savage by the NYT’s Ross Douthat: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/opinion/04douthat.html?_r=1&hp

45. JerseyGirl 45

    Karl R – I am not saying that in ALL cases where a partner cheats, that automatically calls for the end of a relationship.  But in the case of your friend, it clearly wasn’t even a healthy relationship to begin with. Regardless, she had the options to break up with that man. Clearly a relationship takes two people to make it or break it. Clearly there are responsibilities on both their ends. But I find it bull coddling when we say things like “he didn’t feel like he could talk to her so that’s why he stepped out”. It’s a childish argument. If you are intimate enough with a partner to have sex with them, then you should be intimate enough to tell a partner when you are or aren’t happy. And if you don’t know how to do that, you work on it instead of taking the easy way out and finding it in the arms of someone else. And if after talking to your parnter about your needs, they respond by mocking you or not fullfilling your needs, then you leave. No one makes you cheat. 

    When we start saying things like “just be a little more understanding when he steps out on you…” It’s another thing on the list of things that women are told they shouldn’t expect. Here is just another way women are told to “compromise”. It goes right along with the not marrying handsome men article we heard about just last week. The messages are clear. Women shoudn’t have expectations of men or their behavior because being a man alone should be enough to make women come running.

46. Lisa M. 46

    Jersey Girl,

    Of course, the message has always been quite clear to me that women should always be the ones to compromise and men can deny that if they want. But women are starting to catch on and that makes them nervous (hence, the same old tired articles and studies being rehashed year in and year out). They want to desperately hold on to their male privileges which enables them to do whatever the hell makes them happy. They want to have whatever woman they want, they don’t want their looks or age to be scutinized, they want to cheat without consquence and women should just suck it up.  Well, I’m going to do whatever the hell makes me happy, too.

47. Annie 47

    @45

    I agree with you that no-one makes you cheat. I do think there are grey areas, that are unfortunate but do happen.

    For example, if a husband/wife refuses to address the issue, and they simply go on the attack or ignore it, then there really isn’t anything you can do to force it. You suggest leave…but leaving is not alway’s a realistic option.

    If there are children involved, it is “highly” likely that a primary carer will retain primary custody. This is currently usually women.

    So a man is not getting any of his needs met, his wife refuses to even discuss it, he leaves and now he is in a poor financial situation and he see’s his kids every 2nd weekend.

    What would you do in this situation? I can understand when this happens, why people cheat. Why should the man in the above situation be cheated out of raising his kids, because his wife refuses to acknowlege a sexual problem and his only choice is to leave?

    What kind of choice is that really?(yes I know the reverse can happen for women too).

48. Annie 48

    @ Evan 44.

    Excellent Article. It just scratches the surface but nicely summarizes some issues.

    What was the point of marriage? Why was the institution created? Why is it so important?

    I can’t see how savage has really done his research.

49. my honest answer 49

    I’m not sure I buy the ‘men aren’t meant to be faithful’ argument. Maybe they are, maybe they’re not. But when they get married, they promise to be faithful. If they don’t think they can do it, they shouldn’t promise it.
     
    And let’s not pretend this only applies to men. If monogamy isn’t for you, then neither is marriage, it’s as simple as that. Be with someone, but don’t promise to be faithful to them if that is not your intention.

50. Jadafisk 50

    “For example, did you know that all sexually-free (civilized)societies end up matriachal. Do you know why? Is this what you want? What is the effect of a matriachal society do you think in comparison to what we have had?”
     
    The evidence of a truly matriarchal human society has been sought after for decades by anthropologists to no avail. Do you know something they don’t?
     
    “Because right now, 20% of men are making commitments that they don’t always keep. 14% of women are doing the same.”
     
    I think part of this is because of the institution of marriage existing as a sign of true adulthood, a barometer for a person’s worth, and a permission slip to bear children in a socially acceptable atmosphere. In a culture where people are generally expected to marry or to be seen as somehow defective, there will be square pegs stuck into round holes, and subsequent suffering as people blindly follow the herd instead of thinking about what they *really* want. This is why I don’t begrudge the promiscuous guys who refuse to settle down. In a more traditional world, he wouldn’t be a dedicated family man instead of engaging in the “perpetual adolescence he’s able to occupy thanks to the sexual revolution”, he’d be Don Draper, there would be mistresses, love children, prostitutes, VD, bigamy and lies.
     
    Marriage as a union based primarily on love where both parties choose one another and there’s less total economic dependence of one partner on the other is a relatively new concept that conflicts with a lot of its old purposes. Permission for male cheating was a release valve for the old model of marriage as primarily a rite of passage, guarantee of paternity, and a transmission of assets from family to family/one generation to the next – a model of marriage that penalized women for and discouraged them from leaving cheating spouses in myriad ways. Now that women have permission to choose their spouses and the ability to divorce, the ability to support themselves adequately and have custody of/visitation with their children, there’s an increased expectation that men refrain from cheating, and a higher female-initiated divorce rate, in no small part for when that expectation fails to be met. In this brave new world, if total monogamy shouldn’t be expected by women who want it from men, then what’s the point? Why NOT just be the lover of the most appealing men you can rustle up instead of compromising on pretty much everything, only to end up more compromised than you ever imagined?
     
    That being said, I’m an avid reader of SL and in practice, he usually advocates alternative setups for once monogamous married couples in cases where they either have very young children who may be damaged by an immediate separation or are in a situation where one of the partners absolutely refuses to have sex anymore but wants to continue on in a marriage. A prescription of DTMFA is often given to people with cheating mates.

51. Abra 51

    You want women to give up their natural sexual desires for an attractive man, but also want women to understand how unnatural it is for men to be monogamous?  Evan, you might as well say “being a woman is lousy, deal with it.”

52. Happy 52

    Evan writes:
    Millions of people would never have intimate relations outside marriage because they don’t want to risk losing their marriages. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t want to. Savage says that by bringing this to the surface and not making the desire for sexual variety so taboo, perhaps we can have even healthier marriages – instead of asking people to lie or commit secret infidelity.
    Once again, I’d need some stronger evidence that this is a viable option that wouldn’t ruin a marriage, but, in principle, it makes sense.
    I remember a study that said that women prefer variety within a committed relationship, where men prefer a variety of women. Sounds pretty accurate to me. The question is what, if anything, can be done about this truth?
    
    I agree that people with integrity will be less prone to lie or commit secret infidelity or say “you made me do it because I wasn’t getting my needs fulfilled”.  And mature adults who would do unto others as they would like others to do to them know that and would do well to follow some principles of authentic living:
    Be Present
    Pay Attention
    Listen Deeply
    Speak Truthfully
    Act Creatively
    I don’t see having intimate relationships outside of a marriage contributing to healthier marriages, in general, or in the long run.
    This is not about making the desire for sexual variety taboo.  It’s about being honest about what is most important to you.
    Just don’t get married if a variety of sexual partners is very important to you.
    Perhaps examine why you are so greedy and pleasure and experience-driven and wanting to have your cake and eat it too.  All of your desires don’t need to be fulfilled.  Just because there are so many choices in the cereal aisle at the supermarket doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to apply this concept to sex within a monogamous relationship. Why not apply this energy to the primary relationship to make it even better, more enriching?
     
    And that leads me to my next point.  This so-called desire for variety, in post modern society, is, to my mind, a function of rampant consumerism and greed, less responsibility and a throwaway mentality.  More, more, more.
    A bit of irreverence, but food for thought:
    The only positive I see in this sexual variety within marriage proposition is:  a possible remedy to a long time trend of people from within the lower end of the gene pool spreading their seed farther and wider, producing more offspring, than those closer to the top. Could this be the antidote to the symptoms of the idiocracy that is expanding by the second?  Humans are kinda making a mess of things here on earth, you know.  We need smarter, more intelligent (on all levels) progeny!

53. BeenThereDoneThat 53

    And cheating spouses are often referred to as  CPOS (cheating piece of shit)

54. Honey 54

    What I always wonder about when I read this, is who are all these married men supposed to be sleeping with?  Because from what I gather, since women aren’t supposed to have these urges like men do, they probably aren’t getting it from other married women.  Most unmarried women are not going to be interested in fulfilling some married guy’s kinks or desires with absolutely no promise of anything developing into a LTR. So how are they obtaining this NSA sex?  Are they lying to the potential external partners?  Are they all using protection – and I’m not just talking condoms but dental dams, etc.?  What does it say about the whole situation if they are lying not only to their committed partner, but a whole host of possible external partners – and then not acting to protect the health of any of these women?
    I second whoever it was that one of the huge benefits of monogamy is being able to have unprotected sex without fear of disease, as well as the person who said what about the odds of the other woman getting pregnant and deciding to keep the baby.  Additionally, it seems to me that both married partners know what sleeping around is like because most people do it, to some degree, prior to getting married.  The point of dating lots of people when you’re young is so when you get married (or enter a monogamous relationship that isn’t marriage), you know exactly what you’re giving up and are willing to do it for all the benefits that monogamy provides – not only condom-free sex but also emotional, intellectual, and economic support and (for most people) the opportunity to raise children – all things that are compromised by going outside the relationship.

55. Karl R 55

    Selena said: (#40)
    “I thought the stats for infidelity were much higher than this,”

    It depends on how the question is phrased. That percentage sounds about correct if you ask whether someone has cheated on a spouse. If you expand the question to involve all monogamous relationships, the number is higher.

    JerseyGirl said: (#45)
    “I am not saying that in ALL cases where a partner cheats, that automatically calls for the end of a relationship.  But in the case of your friend, it clearly wasn’t even a healthy relationship to begin with.”

    That’s usually the case when one partner cheats. The relationship becomes unhealthy, then one partner cheats.

    I can’t find the study, but I recall a statistic where the majority of people who cheated on a spouse never believed they would cheat. It wasn’t until the relationship was in trouble that they began considering it.

    I remember reading a marriage counselor who said most people will cheat, given the correct environment. The question isn’t whether you or I would ever cheat on a spouse (regardless of how indignant that suggestion makes us). It’s almost guaranteed that we would. The question is how toxic the environment would have to be before it become a near certaintly.

    It’s a sobering realization that I could be a cheater (likewise with my fiancée). And if I want to keep that from happening, I need to make certain that the environment of the relationship stays healthy.

    JerseyGirl said: (#45)
    “But I find it bull coddling when we say things like ‘he didn’t feel like he could talk to her so that’s why he stepped out’.”

    Have you ever been in a relationship where you couldn’t talk to your partner about some topic?

    I was in one relationship like that. I brought up the topic repeatedly. (Maybe twice a month.) After the first two times, my girlfriend knew exactly where the topic of conversation was going, and she would shut it down as quickly as possible. “That’s just not the way I am.” No effort to truly hear me out. No effort to find a compromise position.

    JerseyGirl said: (#45)
    “And if after talking to your parnter about your needs, they respond by mocking you or not fullfilling your needs, then you leave.”

    I left. It was easy. I grabbed a half-dozen possessions from her apartment and went back to my apartment.

    My friend, on the other hand, was in a more difficult situation. Her boyfriend had been living in her house for years. Was she supposed to leave her home? She’d already told him (before the affair) that she wanted him to leave, that she wanted him to move out. When he finally moved out (after the affair), she asked him why he hadn’t done so when she’d told him before. His response, “I didn’t think you meant it seriously.”

    As Annie said (#47), it becomes difficult if children are involved.

    JerseyGirl said: (#45)
    “Here is just another way women are told to ‘compromise’. It goes right along with the not marrying handsome men article we heard about just last week.”

    Of course this message goes along with the message last week. I’d rather compromise on looks/age than monogamy, and I selected partners accordingly.

    Lisa M. said: (#46)
    “Of course, the message has always been quite clear to me that women should always be the ones to compromise and men can deny that if they want.”

    Everybody compromises. But if you don’t want to compromise on a particular point, there’s good news: you don’t have to. No matter what you’re looking for in a spouse, no matter how unreasonable, you can choose one or two criteria and not compromise at all.

    In order to not compromise on those one or two things, you will have to compromise on something else.

    If your list of requirements in a partner is 3 to 5 lines long, then you will have to compromise considerably less than someone whose list is 20 to 50 lines long.

    Of course, if your list of requirements is 3 to 5 lines long, you’ve already compromised. You compromised on the length of your list.

    Find 10 single men and 10 single women and ask them to give a list of what they want in a spouse. Encourage them to make it an exhaustive list.

    Compare the lengths of the lists afterward. Who do you think has compromised on the length of their list?

56. helene 56

    Again, people, can I just say “Let he/she who has not sinned throw the first stone”! How many of us have been perfect wives/girfriends at ALL times? And I’m not just talking about sex, but about ALL aspects of relationships.If only perfection is good enough for you, you better be damn sure you’re a perfect girlfriend/wife too. in ALL respects  – just because a sexual misdemeanor is top of YOUR list of relationship crimes, it doesn’t mean its top of your partner’s list – you could be damed for all sorts of other lapses in perfection!

57. Ruby 57

    Honey #54

    In the situations that I’m familiar with, the married men were sleeping with married or partnered women, and only rarely single women. In all cases, the other partner didn’t know what was happening at the time (although they usually suspected or found out later on). In one case, the couple had a threesome with a single woman, which led to the woman continuing to have affairs (with women) behind the husband’s back until the marriage ended.

58. Gina 58

    Evan wrote: “Dan Savage simply makes the point that it may be more realistic and effective to not let the occasional sexual infidelity ruin the entire relationship. I have never been unfaithful, but I am inclined to agree with him in principle. Would I give up everything I’ve built with my wife and family because she committed an indiscretion and told me about it? I sure hope not. ”

    I understand what you and Dan Savage are both saying. In theory, like you said, it all sounds great. However, life isn’t that simple and human beings are complicated creatures. What we say we may or may not do in a hypothetical situation isn’t necessarily what we WOULD actually do if we found ourselves in said situation. Like you said Evan, “I sure hope not.” The occasional sexual infidelity would most definitely ruin (or at least put the relationship under considerable strain) if you or your partner contracted an incurable STD, or if there was a pregnancy involved and your partner did not want to get an abortion. It can take years of hard work and effort to build a rewarding and mutually satisfying relationship; but what took years to build, with one simple act, can all be destroyed in no time at all. 

    There’s also a difference between forgiving an act of indiscretion and wanting to continue on in the relationship.  I could forgive my husband (if I were married) for getting drunk and sleeping with someone else by mistake, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’d feel the same way and want to continue on in a relationship with him if he contracted an incurable disease or impregnated someone as a result of his indiscretion.

    Just my two cents!

59. JerseyGirl 59

    Annie #47 every situation is different. We all can collectively acknowledge that. There are shades of gray. As I said earlier, I never said that any relationship where one person cheats should be an automatic break up of that relationship. I do believe that when a partner cheats, there is a possiblity that the relationship can be worked on and they can come out of the storm. Stastically, women are more forgiving of men cheating then men are of women cheating. Ironic that we are the gender being lectured about being even more forgiving then many women already prove to be over men. 

    Regardless of all that, I am not going to say that it’s okay, that “slip- ups” happen and those that are cheated on should have a more “understanding nature”. If you can keep your family and kids AND cheat/sleep with other people, and people ALREADY cheat even knowing the possible pitfalls (such as loosing kids and homes), can you imagine the clusterf*ck in the horizon? Where is the intregrity and loyatly?

    Yes, kids and money issues are always huge factors. But anyone that thinks kids don’t pick up on issues in marriages is only fooling themselves. If the cheating parent was all that worried about their kids over anything else, then they would exercise a little self control. And that’s really what it comes down to. People do not believe that they should forgo themselves any pleasure anymore, even for their own children. Instant gratification. Your wife not giving you head? YOU deserve head! Go out and find a woman that will. Your husband isn’t giving you the attention you deserve. YOU deserve attention for your beauty! Go find a man that will give you attention. No one can get all their needs met all the time. If a relationship is in such distress that huge needs aren’t being met, then you do what you need to do to protect what is most important to you. If your children and assests are the most important things, a person’s choices will reflect that. If your own needs are most important, a person’s choices will also reflect that. It seems to be a little bit after the fact to worry about your children and assets AFTER you’ve done the deed no? People have tons of choices available to them. They might not be the happiest choices at the time, the ones that make *them* feel best, but they have choices. 

    Lisa M #46, yes there is always so many pop science articles about all the ways women should compromise. Where are all the pop science article about al lthe ways men should compromise? Interesting that.

    Abra post #51, you just about summed it up in our post..”you might as well say “being a woman is lousy, deal with it.”..That is the message women seem to get all the time and it’s so frustrating.. 

60. starthrower68 60

    @ Abra #51,

    Abra, I don’t think that’s what Evan is saying, and even if it was, does it really suck to be a woman?  Because women have a great deal more financial independence in this day and age, we don’t have to get married if we don’t want to.  Or we can leave the guy who doesn’t want to marry us. While I agree that we do have to make certain compromises for the sake of a relationship, we don’t have to make all of them.  If a man feels the need to continually “seek out greener pastures” then he doesn’t have the ability to delay gratification or any other character qualities that makes for a mature, healthy relationship.  If he wants to play around, then by all means, he should do that.  But he should not try to change the woman who will not tolerate it.  He should find the woman who will.

61. pd 61

    JerseyGirl # 21

    Couldn’t agree more with your comments about some men living in an abstract lala fantasy land in their heads. I’m sure this has caused their partners to withdraw sexually and emotionally with all this mucky, nasty stuff available 24.7 via the internet and having your partner quite upfront about watching and liking what he sees. Fantasy sex becomes addictive, normal and reality retreats.  

62. Annie 62

    @59

    Having an affair so you are not completely miserable in a relationship, is not necessarily putting yourself first and the kids last. Is it better to leave the relationship and only see your kids 4 day’s out of a month, even though they need you?

    I could say the same thing to the other partner who is not participating. In their refusal to compromise and try and make their partner happy, they are risking that partner ending the relationship, which will hurt their children. Why not make an effort for your partner, so that they will be happier and not leave?

    It works both ways. If you refuse to do anything to help make your partner happy, then you are also contributing to the downfall of your relationship , putting yourself first and not your children.

63. Karl R 63

    JerseyGirl said: (#59)
    “No one can get all their needs met all the time.”

    Interesting choice of words.

    need: a requirement, necessary duty, or obligation

    Take a look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. It gives a good overview of the types of things that people need, and the relative importance of those things.

    JerseyGirl said: (#59)
    “Your wife not giving you head? YOU deserve head! Go out and find a woman that will. Your husband isn’t giving you the attention you deserve. YOU deserve attention for your beauty!”

    I’m reminded of a cartoon I saw in Playboy of a bride and groom standing at the altar. The groom was thinking, “Now I can have sex any time I want.” The bride was thinking, “Now I never have to have sex again.”

    Are you just giving your boyfriend head to get him to marry you? After you get married, do you intend to never perform that sex act again?

    I made a point of telling my fiancée that she was beautiful as a way (one of many) to get her interested in having a more serious relationship with me. I know that she (like everyone else on this planet) wants to feel attractive, and she wants to feel desirable, and she wants to feel appreciated. According to Maslow, those are esteem needs, not just wants.

    I have made it obvious by my constant actions that she can get those needs met by being around me. When we get married, I could decide that I no longer need to tell her that. She’s already married me.

    If I were to do that, it would be a bait-and-switch. Through my actions I’ve implied that I will continue to meet that need for her.

    Furthermore, if I don’t meet that need, I’m sure she can find someone else who will.

    Maslow has a long list of needs. If I don’t want my fiancée getting certain needs met outside the relationship, I better be willing to fulfill those needs myself.

    I realize that there are a lot of people who cheat just because they can. But there are more who cheat because they were looking for something they weren’t getting from their partner. And it’s generally something they expected to get from their partner.

    JerseyGirl asked: (#59)
    “If you can keep your family and kids AND cheat/sleep with other people, and people ALREADY cheat even knowing the possible pitfalls (such as loosing kids and homes), can you imagine the clusterf*ck in the horizon? Where is the intregrity and loyatly?”

    If I stop meeting my fiancée’s needs after we get married, that is hardly an act of integrity on my part. And I think a lot of people do this with the expectation that their spouse will demonstrate loyalty regardless. And you’re implying that (currently) the loyalty is largely inspired by the fear of losing children or money.

    That sounds more like coercion than loyalty or integrity.

    To me, there is more integrity it being able to have an honest and open discussion with my fiancée about our needs. There is more integrity in being able to choose whether I will meet her needs, or whether I will accept her getting them met elsewhere. And if I am unwilling to do either of those (or if she is unwilling to do so for me), that I can make an informed decision that we are not right for each other.

    And most importantly, that I can do all of that before we start a family together.

64. JerseyGirl 64

    Karl said: (#55)
    “That’s usually the case when one partner cheats. The relationship becomes unhealthy, then one partner cheats.”

    Not always Karl. Sometimes people just get bored or lazy and stop putting work into their relationship. Sometimes they just want to bone someone new. But it’s not always the extreme case of someone emotionally abusiving and mocking another partner for being upset over the death of a parent. That is an extreme case. 

    Karl said: (#55) 
    I can’t find the study, but I recall a statistic where the majority of people who cheated on a spouse never believed they would cheat.

    I have no doubt that that is probably true. But that’s the test of character is it not? We only really know how we would react to a situation once we are actually in it.

    Karl said: (#55)
    The question isn’t whether you or I would ever cheat on a spouse (regardless of how indignant that suggestion makes us). It’s almost guaranteed that we would. The question is howtoxic the environment would have to be before it become a near certaintly.
    
    Karl, that’s a huge leap and assumption to make. That just because most people that thought they wouldn’t cheat, did cheat, that must mean that most people would infact cheat period. 
    
    I know me well enough on this score because I have been there. I was in a toxic relationship and I didn’t cheat. 

    Regardless, that isn’t really the point, I feel like I need to repeat that whole part where I said that when a partner cheats there is a possiblity that two people in the relationship can still work things out. But if we slip into that mentality that “oh well someone cheated, they weren’t getting their needs met, now their partner SHOULD forgive them”,  I don’t exactly see how that is going to create safer, happier more beneficial relationships.

    Karl said: (#55) 
    Have you ever been in a relationship where you couldn’t talk to your partner about some topic?
    Yes, I dated a man that regularly invalidated my feelings on certain issues that came up in the relationship. He was older so he thought he always knew best and would tell me as much when he said things like  ”you just don’t understand because your *insert my age*…” Unfortunetly, that built up bitterness between us since we couldn’t come to conclusions about certain issues. We broke up. 

    Some men try to argue that dating older men is always better. Well they are wrong. Older guys just come with a different set of issues then younger ones do.

    Karl said: (#55) 
    My friend, on the other hand, was in a more difficult situation. Her boyfriend had been living in her house for years. Was she supposed to leave her home?

    Of course not. She could call up some male friends. She could have called the police. She could have made herself more assertive and clear that she wanted him to leave. There were other choices. I undestand that she is your friend Karl and you sympathize with what she went through but it doesn’t change my mind that saying some “indiscretions” are okay.   
    
    Karl said: (#55)  
    As Annie said (#47), it becomes difficult if children are involved.
    I responded to Annie about this in my other post.
    Karl said: (#55) 
    Of course this message goes along with the message last week. I’d rather compromise on looks/age than monogamy, and I selected partners accordingly.

    I guess only super hot guys cheat too? Regular guys don’t? My point was Karl is that women are always being told to compromise on everything. Don’t pick handsome men, most men want younger/prettier women, and now we are being told that we shouldn’t even expect monogamy because men must “spread their seeds” so if he has an affair here and there…well then, it is okay, he’s a man. 

    By the way, how many affairs are we saying is a “healthy” amount for a partner to forgive? One, two, three…what is the time table and number of affairs that we should be understanding about?

65. Evan Marc Katz 65

    The next time you say this, JerseyGirl: “Women are always being told to compromise on everything,” I’m simply going to delete it.

    It’s not true. Not true in the media. Not true by me. Not true by all men. Not true in real life.

    As Karl and I have pointed out, ad nauseum, if men don’t compromise in equal measures, they’ll just as equally run the risk of spending their lives alone. The guy who thinks his wife will cook for him every night? He’ll be alone. The “5″ who thinks he deserves a “9″? He’ll be alone. The guy who doesn’t realize that real women age and get cellulite? He’ll be alone. The guy who thinks a woman with a PhD and good breeding is the only one qualified to date him? He’ll be alone.

    Same goes for you. Don’t want to date an older man? Don’t date an older man. Don’t want to date the threesome guy? Don’t date the threesome guy. Don’t want to date a man who makes less than you? Whatever suits your fancy.

    Just know that the people who compromise on their laundry list – and are flexible within the scope of the relationship- are the ones who find happiness. Hell, I’m only writing this because my wife is, once again, 45 minutes late because she thinks it’s important to do her hair and makeup for a 90 degree 4th of July party. This is the same wife, mind you, that I compromised on age, religion, education, income, and politics to marry. Why? Because she’s the best person on Earth and I’d be an idiot to pass her up. Find your kindest man and hold onto him. Then perhaps you can stop being combative every time I ask you to understand and accept men as they are. As always, you have two choices: put up with a man’s behavior, or leave the man.

    And since this is a blog for women, women are going to be told – by a very reasonable, relationship-oriented man who understands women and speaks for a lot of men – what things you should compromise on and what things you should not compromise on. Your perpetual straw man argument – “women are oppressed, men can do anything they want” – which forces me to have to defend myself against things I never said – is simply tiresome.

    That goes for you, too, Lisa M, Abra, Margo, and anyone who takes any critique of women personally, despite the fact that 80% of the time, my advice is to tell the woman to leave her jackass boyfriend. I think there’s a place for you on the world, I just think you’re on the wrong blog. You want a place to vent about men who suck? This ain’t it. This one’s written by a man who wants to show you how to attract, relate to, and understand men.

    After all these years, if you’re STILL not happy with dating or my take on it, I’m sorry, but your negativity gets me down.

    You’ve got the rest of the Internet to yourself.

    Evan

66. Karl R 66

    JerseyGirl said: (#64)
    “Sometimes people just get bored or lazy and stop putting work into their relationship.”

    If I (or my fiancée) stops putting work into our relationship (out of boredom or laziness), then our relationship will stop being healthy. Healthy relationships require regular maintenance.

    The unhealthy relationships that I was in weren’t abusive. But they were still unhealthy.

    A relationship isn’t necessarily healthy (or happy) just because nobody cheats. My measure of a healthy, happy relationship is set a bit higher than “fidelity.”

    JerseyGirl said: (#64)
    “But that’s the test of character is it not? We only really know how we would react to a situation once we are actually in it. [...] I was in a toxic relationship and I didn’t cheat.”

    Congratulations. You have more character than the woman who cheated on me.

    Now try being in an equally toxic relationship that you can’t leave (because of financial dependence or some other reason).

    JerseyGirl said: (#64)
    “I undestand that she is your friend Karl and you sympathize with what she went through but it doesn’t change my mind that saying some ‘indiscretions’ are okay.”

    She doesn’t believe that the indiscretion was okay. Neither do I, for that matter.

    But indiscretions generally don’t occur in a vaccuum.

    I’m a lot more “okay” with indiscretions that are prevented before they occur. If my fiancée needs a shoulder to cry on, I prefer that it be mine instead of a handsome coworker’s. If my fiancée decides she wants to get emails with dirty pictures, I’d prefer she get the emails from me instead of Anthony Weiner.
    
    JerseyGirl asked: (#64)
    “By the way, how many affairs are we saying is a ‘healthy’ amount for a partner to forgive?”

    Based on what Dan Savage said, the healthy course of action is for the partners to reach a non-monogamous agreement, instead of having non-sanctioned affairs.

    An alternative is to agree to meet all of each others’ sexual needs inside the relationship. Of course, that might mean having to compromise and do some things that your partner loves, even though those things don’t turn you on.

    Uh oh. There’s that dreaded “C” word again.

    JerseyGirl said: (#64)
    “But if we slip into that mentality that ‘oh well someone cheated, they weren’t getting their needs met, now their partner SHOULD forgive them’,  I don’t exactly see how that is going to create safer, happier more beneficial relationships.”

    Is that the only reason you don’t cheat on your partners? You’re afraid they’ll leave you if you cheat?

    If so, I don’t exactly see how that qualifies as a safe, happy or benificial relationship.

    JerseyGirl said: (#64)
    “I guess only super hot guys cheat too? Regular guys don’t? My point was Karl is that women are always being told to compromise on everything. Don’t pick handsome men, …”

    Nobody says you have to compromise on everything.

    If you’re a “5″ and you want a man who is a “9″, you probably can get that. But you might have to compromise on almost everything else to get it.

    I decided what the few traits were that I wouldn’t compromise on, then I went looking for women who had those few traits. Any other good traits those women had were a bonus.

    If what you want most is a man who shares your view on monogamy and who validates your feelings, then I’d suggest you not limit your search to men who are younger and good looking. Because if you do limit your search to those who are younger and good looking, then it’s quite obvious that those are your no-compromise traits. It’s possible that your young hunk will meet your criteria for monogamy and validation, but only if you’re lucky and score it as a bonus.

    I wanted a woman who accepts me the way I am, who is easy to get along with, who doesn’t want kids and who is intelligent enough that I see her as an equal. I found those traits among women who were older/younger, beautiful/average-looking, well-educated/less-educated, good dancers/non-dancers, etc.

    But I found a wonderful woman who had the traits I wanted most, because I didn’t limit my search to brilliant, highly-educatd beautiful young women who are great dancers.

67. Margo 67

    @Evan 31, I agree that men and women live to 80+ and  continue to sexually desire the oposoite sex. I’m a living witness. Doesn’t mean a person has to act on it though.

    What I don’t agree on is your notion that one should acknowledge it, and understand it so that an indescretion doesn’t end the relationship. WTF? This sounds like giving someone the permission to go and cheat.

    Just because one or both people in a committed relationship acknowledge that they both have age-old lust for other people doesn’t mean either one of them should resort to infidelity. What about exercising some self-control and just saying “no” to temptation??

    Again, you’re either all in, or you’re not. It is the pathetic individual that comes to their partner with their tail between their legs crying about how they couldn’t help themselves. I honestly don’t know of any cases where someone put a gun to someone’s head and made them cheat.

    If I love a man, there will be no indiscretions because I love him, and don’t want to hurt him. End of story.

68. Margo 68

    @Evan 65, I’m not aware that I’ve ever taken any critique of women personally, so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t lump me in the category of the women you’ve outlined in your post.

69. shanon 69

    @ Gina 13
    Completely agree with you about the double standard. I’ve tried an open relationship a couple of times. It always seems that I bite my tongue when I’m uncomfortable and inevitably end up told I’m a whore and screamed at when it comes to my turn.
    On the subject of gay men and emotions. I just got back from for a weekend with my philly gays. My dear friend from high school is currently single; his best friend/sometimes lover is currently in an exclusive relationship. They still love each other and consider each other best friends even though there is sexual tension. This dear friend of mind also slept with another friends boyfriend the other weekend on the mistaken assumption it was intended to be a threesome. Phone calls were made, they went out to dinner and everything is okay. Gay men don’t fuck without emotion… at least not all the time. At least in the community of men I know you treat each with kindness and respect.
    I envy the gay community greatly. Straight men want their cake and want to eat it too.

70. Andrew 70

    “Your perpetual straw man argument – “women are oppressed, men can do anything they want” – which forces me to have to defend myself against things I never said – is simply tiresome.”

    The “woman as oppressed victim” mentality is indeed tiresome. It does a tremendous disservice to the resilient and self-reliant women who don’t perceive of themselves as victims to some sort of vague patriarchy that imposes arbitrary and unfair rules.
    Those self-reliant and resilient women are the ones who understand and follow Evan’s advice with good cheer and optimism and it is precisely those women whom I find so deeply attractive and certainly worth pitching some honest and romantic woo.
    Hey Evan, got any clients between 40 and 50 years old in South Florida?

71. Evan Marc Katz 71

    @Margo “This article reeks of immorality. So does this post and the responses to it….To Evan and the rest of you men on here who are contemplating what you can do to change (monogamy), compromise, justify to fulfill your selfish desires-and they are selfish-you shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place.”

    I think you missed the part of the blog rules where I said “don’t insult the host”. Telling me that I’m selfish and that I shouldn’t have gotten married is, by definition, an insult. And I will no longer post such comments.

72. Honey 72

    Jake was unfaithful twice, one year apart, with the same woman each time.  They didn’t have sex, and may or may not have made out, but it was definitely clear that their relationship was inappropriate, and that he lied to me and did some other stupid things in order to/as a result of hanging out with her.
     
    I still think about it every single day.  I often wish I had beat her up the two times I caught them together.  I doubt a lot of the things he says even though I know he is being truthful because the seed of doubt, once planted, seems to always bear fruit.
     
    Guess what?  They still talk, and I don’t make a big deal out of it.  I still eloped with him so he could start his own business and still have health insurance.  He’s human, and did something stupid a couple of times.  But I’m not stupid – he loves me, and he’s a good partner.

73. BeenThereDoneThat 73

    Congrats Honey!

74. Melanie 74

    @ Evan

    I’m not going to lie. This post confused me a bit. I recently broke up with my boyfriend because of his lust for other girls. I was about 75% sure I made the right decision. Now I’m second guessing myself.

75. Annie 75

    @74

    Was your partner cheating? Or flirting? or just looking? Desire is inevitable, but what you do with that is what’s important imo.

76. Melanie 76

    @ Annie

    He was going to dinner with them and giving them gifts while telling me he was doing something his his family.

    I’m aware all guys will be attracted to other women. I mean, I’m attracted to other men. But according to this article, maybe I shouldn’t have been so harsh on him?

77. Andrew 77

    He was going to dinner with them and giving them gifts while telling me he was doing something his his family
    He was lying to you. That’s more of the issue at stake here.
    You did the right thing.

78. BeenThereDoneThat 78

    If anyone is interested, they should check out today’s Dan Savage’s advice column.  I think it is a good representation of his usual advice and he is very witty and entertaining as well. 

79. Sheyna 79

     
    @Melanie,
    This article is not saying that every cheating POS…Dan Savage’s term for cheaters fyi…should get a second chance automatically.
    This is about long-term relationships. Where you have built up a life, own property — are actual partners, maybe have kids, dogs, businesses. It’s about how you get to the finish line with a life-long partner.
    It’s NOT giving a pass to people who can’t keep it in their pants for six months of being your boyfriend. Over the long-term is it worth jettisoning someone because they cheat — maybe not.

    Adults need to have these conversations when they are in long relationships. It’s expectations, mutually agreed upon boundaries, brutal honesty and completely trusting your partnership to transcend the sometimes petty and dirty business of life. 

    Both partners have to be committed to it and have the same vision. 
     
     

80. Helen 80

    From a longtime married chick, here is my perspective. 
     
    1. We are fools to expect perfection from our spouses/SOs. It is not going to happen no matter how wonderful our spouse is. Everyone makes mistakes, even basically good and well-intentioned people. So we have to learn how to forgive.
     
    2. Fidelity/infidelity is overrated in American culture as what makes or breaks a relationship. To quote the SATC movie on this, Miranda’s husband has a good point when he says, “Why rate this one mistake as worse than all the others? What about if she breaks the other marriage vows? Don’t they matter too?” Yes, they do. And one can wind up being hurt by something much more than by infidelity. Yet, still, if one wants the marriage to survive… one forgives.
     
    It’s only because our society has such a weird, halfway Puritanical halfway obsessive distinctly unhealthy view of sex that we place perhaps too high a premium on absolute monogamy.
     
    I think helene has it right in her two comments above. As do Evan and Dan and Honey, but helene stated it most explicitly. We should try our best for the ones we love, but we shouldn’t expect perfection in ANYthing for a lifetime – from the spouse, from the kids, from our friends, or from ourselves.

81. JerseyGirl 81

    Evan, I don’t see a problem with us respectfully disagreeing with each other. I am aware this is your blog. And it still remains your blog despite my opinion on the subject matter and despite sharing that opinion here. It’s my personal observation that women are often told not to have certain expectations about men because “boys will be boys”.

    I understand you don’t advocate women to stay in bad relationships. I understand that you advocate for compromising. And I can collectively agree with you on those two points of view. Where we differ is when we dig deeper into what it means to compromise. You systematically pointed out that men want more variety in female partners in combination with compromising on “indiscretions”. While I totally get and agree with the concept of compromising, it does seem that the more women do infact compromise; the more leeway men generally seem to take.

    Unrealistic expectations are one thing. Asking women to be understanding about viewing women as choice plums to pick and choose as he desires while he can still have his number one plum around for companionship and to take care of him when he is sick, seems entirely different from the concept of “compromising” within a relationship.  “Boys will be boys” is a popular culturally reinforced mentality. You don’t even need to be a feminist to see that. It seems to me that if women are being asked to be more understanding of his “indiscretions”, and that is what you’re doing since as you point out yourself, women are your target audience; then we are being asked to compromise on a big part of what most women desire deep in their hearts. Especially the women that come to this blog. Committed, loyal, respectful men. Why would men in general want to kill that inside us? Because as a woman, I think that’s one of the best parts of me. The desire to have a bond with one person and be loyal to that person. And I don’t think men are absent from that desire either. You’re blog is all about helping women find love. So I guess it’s aggravating that most of us are coming here for help and before we even get our foot into the door or a good healthy relationship, we are being told not to even have expectations about monogamy because as you pointed out, men like variety in women. You talked about my/our negativity getting you down. Well every time we are told how much men like variety in women, I can guarantee you that it gets down a good chunk of your female readers. Even the ones that accept it. It’s like a little hot poker women get pushed at them from time to time from the media, from men in general, even from their own boyfriends or husbands. It’s not the kind of thing that strengths relationships.

    Yes! Compromise on things like height, money, clothes..silly things. Compromise on indiscretions? That’s a whole other can of worms. I dislike the idea that because women can acknowledge things men might do that are hurtful or aren’t right, but certainly are pretty stereotypical, that we automatically get labeled as “playing the victim”. You speak to women. You should also acknowledge the areas that women find troublesome. Because that will only make your own advice better. You can’t say things like “men like variety in women/compromise on indiscretions ” and have no expectation that that doesn’t pull at women’s emotions in some way and leave us even more confused about what to do. Because I can guarantee that most women don’t want open relationships.

82. JerseyGirl 82

    Karl, I don’t limit my dating pool. I’ve dated all kinds of men. And you know what? short 5’6 guys are just as likely to dump you as tall 6″ feet guys. Fat balding guys are just as likely to cheat on you as athetic guys. In my experience, looks and wealth have nothing to do with a man’s integrity or what he thinks he deserves or desires. I don’t date younger men and I stopped dating older ones because I found out that older men that dated me were usally just like the younger men, immature.

83. Evan Marc Katz 83

    @Jersey. Well said. Well reasoned. No disagreement on this last comment. It’s the 200 other comments on posts that had nothing to do with open relationships, where you reflexively called me out for favoring men and telling women that they were the only ones who had to change. That’s the stuff that has gotten tiresome. Clearly, I post a lot of comments from people who disagree with me. I only get frustrated when a) I get personally attacked, b) my words are twisted into something I didn’t say, and c) every exhortation to help women is quickly turned around to “What about MEN?!” If you don’t do any of those things, you’ll pretty much never hear from me. Look at regular posters: BeenThruTheWars, A-L, Honey, Karl – they give their opinions, they back them up with facts, and they never get angry.

    You probably shouldn’t be too surprised to note that all of them are in successful long-term relationships as well.

84. Karl R 84

    JerseyGirl said: (#81)
    “I don’t limit my dating pool.”
    “I don’t date younger men and I stopped dating older ones”

    You’re limiting your dating pool, because you don’t date younger men.
    You’re limiting your dating poole, because you stopped dating older men.

    Can someone else explain this to JerseyGirl more clearly than I can?

    JerseyGirl said: (#81)
    “short 5’6 guys are just as likely to dump you as tall 6″ feet guys. Fat balding guys are just as likely to cheat on you as athetic guys. In my experience, looks and wealth have nothing to do with a man’s integrity or what he thinks he deserves or desires.”
    “I found out that older men that dated me were usally just like the younger men,”

    I’m willing to agree with all of that.

    So if your goal is to find a man who has integrity, who doesn’t cheat, who is mature and who won’t dump you, then his height, weight, fitness, looks, hair, age and wealth are irrelevant.

    In whatever city you live in, what percentage of the single men are tall and athletic and wealthy and not balding and good looking and exactly your age?

    That group of single men is much smaller than … well … all the rest of the single men.

    Given that those external qualities have no correlation to the internal qualities you want (integrity, maturity, etc.), that means the vast majority of men with the desirable internal qualities are going to be in the large group of “the rest” of the men.

    The majority of single women are trying to date the men who are tall, athletic, wealthy, etc. So if you chase after those men, not only are you persuing a smaller number of men who have maturity and integrity, but you’re also competing with a larger number of women for them.

    Which is easier, competing with a large number of women for a small number of good catches, or competing with a small number of women for a larger number of good catches?

85. Lisa M. 85

    @Karl:  I don’t think that, Jerseygirl was saying that she was seeking out only tall, athletic wealthy guys.  Her point was that, these attributes didn’t make a guy a better or a bad partner.  Those are external factors and they are not an indication of a man’s integrity or maturity or whether he will be a faithful or an unfaithful partner. 
     
    Why do men get so up in arms and defensive when women mention men’s looks?  The men here are always rushing in to tell us that we are limiting ourselves to a “small pool” of men and whatever else. Duh!!!  But that doesn’t mean we can’t still fish in that small pool while fishing in the larger one at the same time, right?  The horse is already dead, so please stop beating it. Geez. 
     

86. Margo 86

    @Karl #84, So if your goal is to find a man who has integrity, who doesn’t cheat, who is mature and who won’t dump you, then his height, weight, fitness, looks, hair, age and wealth are irrelevant.

    They are not irrelevant. If a woman, or man, chooses and stays with someone that they don’t find attractive, the relationship will not work. Period.

87. Christie Hartman 87

    I have read Dan Savage’s column and listened to his radio show. And each time I do, I come to the same conclusion: Savage is an admirable sex expert, but he is NO relationship expert.
     
    The idea that men aren’t “wired” for monogamy, but women are, is ridiculous, and there is little research to support this supposed difference. People who talk so decidedly about “wiring” in humans don’t usually even know what this “wiring” is or how it works; they simply take their own experience and expand it into a theory of how the world works, looking for anything that will support their claims. Savage (who’s gay) has done this by utilizing the gay male model for human beings. 
     
    I have no strong opinion on whether humans (male or female) are naturally monogamous. I’ve seen research to support both sides of the argument. What I do know is that humans, male OR female, often WANT to be. Nobody puts a gun to people’s head and forces them to marry or to accept monogamy – they CHOOSE it, on their own. Some may mess up from time to time, but they choose it nonetheless. I just watched a video where Helen Fisher speaks about romantic love – the desire to love ONE PERSON – and brain areas that contribute to this human phenomenon. With actual research support, Fisher gets a lot more points from me in this argument than most others.

88. Nicole 88

    @Margo #86,
    But now you are doing exactly what others have been lightly excoriated for doing.

    You are taking Karl’s point and twisting into something that sounds like “women are told that men’s looks don’t matter and they shouldn’t judge them by that yardstick.”

    Pointing out that there is no correlation between the traits that we value is not telling us that you that you should date nice men for whom you have no physical attraction at all.  It’s just going back to settling, and what you MIGHT consider settling for what you can’t. I’m not sure why that piece of advice always turns into this idea that you should marry some unemployed, illiterate slob that you find physically repulsive. And the original point about the fact that any man can let you down was made by a woman, so really, his comment just re-states hers in another way.

    I keep reading comments where my fellow women take all advice and stretch into extreme hyperbole. 

    So at no point does Dan Savage or the response to this letter say that you should stay with a man who just cheats on you with lots of women whenever he has the urge.  It’s not even suggesting that you make plans to let your husband (or wife) cheat on you. And to be fair, Dan Savage’s advice is not directed at women but at anyone in a long term relationship.  It only starts and ends with men (I think) because he’s a man who dates men.  And the advice is just saying that you should re-think what is a dealbreaker for you in your own long-term relationship and what isn’t.  It’s saying that maybe agreeing to let some needs (and not just sexual) be fulfilled in another way if you cannot or will not fulfill them yourself. It does not encourage promiscuity, lying, or keeping a harem outside of your marriage.  I mean, I feel as if I see this all of the time with things that don’t involve sex.  One person likes to travel, the other has no interest, but actively blocks the other spouse from doing it.  It makes no sense but it happens.  And yet the person is caught off guard when that person who feels unfulfilled finds fulfillment someplace else.  There was a Judd Apatow movie, Funny People, where the husband was running off the play video games.  It was something super simple tha the needed beyond being a husband and father and his wife was really mad when she found out about it, and actually had assumed it was an affair.  But it was something he wanted that he either felt or knew that she wouldn’t have approved of, and in the end, he snuck out and did it.  I think that probably happens to a lot of people.

    Let’s not act like women are just these put upon victims who never hurt anyone, lie to anyone, get bored of anyone, or cheat on anyone.  That’s simply not true. 

    I’ve never been married but I cannot fathom why I’d insist that my partner could not enjoy something that I didn’t like doing.

    I think my favorite response to this issue has been Helen’s #80.  She made great points and I could not say things any better than she has (plus she has a long term marriage to back things up). 

    I really think that too often these discussions use sex as the example and then it pushes everyone’s buttons and they don’t think of how many other non-sexual situations this advice is really spot on about.

89. JerseyGirl 89

    Karl, I don’t really know how many different ways I can tell you that I don’t chase only tall, athletic, rich men. You keep telling me I only go for a certain type of man and I already explained to you I don’t. I might limit my age range and that does narrow my pool but not by so much I am being impractical. Over a week ago I went out with a 5’6, 33, divorced man that does part time electrician work for his dad’s company and is working on doing his own start-up online business. He wasn’t interested in me but I was interested enough in him to get to know him better. It’s just as easy to get dumped by a short guy as it is a tall guy. All this talk about how rich, handsome, social and socially connected men are the only ones that act badly is nonsense. Sometimes short, balding, fat, average guys have a lot of nonsense about themselves too. That is all I am saying. 

90. Trenia 90

    I find it interesting that Savage talks about men in history having concubines and being unfaithful as though these women were freely and willfully giving up their virginity and being involved in relationships with these men. These women were slaves and more often than not didn’t have a choice in the matter. So how does that benefit a woman to be in that situation? I also find it interesting how we compare puritanical values in American society to other countries as though they’ve figured it all out. Sex trafficking, child brides and the like are happening in mass numbers in other countries and yet we look at many of these cultures as the ideal? And many European countries are the worse culprits; just take a trip to Central America and ask the country of origin of the men buying little girls for sex.

    I don’t necessarily believe that infidelity is an automatic cause for divorce, relationships are so much more complicated than that, but there is no reason to commit and say you will and want to be monogamous when deep down that’s not what you really want. I find that many men want the whore, the mother, the wife, the sex slave, the intellectual stimulation, the ego stroking, all wrapped into one, and if they don’t get it all they stray.

    I say to each her own, if you elect to be with a cheater and forgive him, that’s your business, likewise, if you decide to move on, that’s your decision. 

91. Margo 91

    @Nicole 88 says: I’ve never been married but I cannot fathom why I’d insist that my partner could not enjoy something that I didn’t like doing.

    Really Nicole? If it was something sexual that he enjoyed that required the participation of a woman, are you saying you’d let him do it with a woman other than yourself?…

    Hmm, why do I feel like you will dodge this question?

    JerseyGirl, you’re talking to the wall. You can’t reason with someone who refuses to be reasoned with. 

92. starthrower68 92

    Someone please correct me if I’m misunderstanding, but I think that this seems to – on some level – address sexual repression.  I agree with a lot of Trenia #90 says, but I’m going back to just the normal human desire for sex with nothing outrageous involved.  I can’t speak as a man, never having been one, but I can relate my experience.  As a 5 year-old, I watched my mother kissing (and it was making out) in front of my dad and I the day she left.  So my dad’s mother became a surrogate mother of sorts and she thought sex was not for women to enjoy, that it was dirty.  Then combine that with the magazines my dad left lying around and I got some very confusing and distorted ideas about sex.  I somehow managed to birth three kids in spite of a rather lame sex life in my marriage.  I was about 35 or so before I had a sexual experience where I learned how to really be in touch with it.  Even now I’m a little frightened of that aspect of my nature.  I realize that to have a healthy, adult relationship, I am going to have to get in touch with that again and not be afraid of it.  I am taking the long way to make my point, but it is simply that women have not traditionally been taught that its ok to enjoy sex and be in touch with that side of ourselves.  I’m sure many women have learned it on their own and have a healthy attitude about it, but for some its more of a struggle.  A little patience, understanding, and communication goes along way in helping two people meet in the middle.  

    I also agree with what Nicole says in #86, and that is that we need to have lives outside of the relationship,  I don’t mean anything duplicitous that would betray the other’s trust.  But – and I am the born again type saying this – if I was with a man who went to a strip club for a bachelor party, it’s not going to bother me.  Chances are he’ll get aroused or find it amusing but be more appreciative of what he has at home.  Or he could decide he’d rather have the strippers, and if that’s the case he needs to go for it because I will never be a stripper so he might as well go get what he wants because I know what I am and what I am not.  I will not change his desires anyway.  Nicole’s right, it doesn’t even have to have a sexual aspect.  I’m a complete radio geek and do it as a serious hobby.  It’s in my blood and I do radio like some men do golf for fantasy football.

93. Lisa M. 93

    “Over a week ago I went out with a 5’6, 33, divorced man that does part time electrician work for his dad’s company and is working on doing his own start-up online business. “
     
    Jerseygirl, almost a year ago, I went out with a guy that was 5’6″(my height), 35, a high school gym teacher who was still living at home.  Now, to be honest this was not a guy I would normally give the time of day to.  But I was trying to be more open, you know, swimming in the larger pool.  On our date,  he asked me why I was still single, I didn’t want to reveal that I had commitment issues, so I said that I had a very busy schedule and just hadn’t met the right guy yet (partially true).  But he kept on insisting that I tell him exactly why I was still single which I thought was very strange.  He then said that he had a degree in psychology and that if I had some issue that he could help me (What? Therapy on the first date …Okay – Redflag).  He kept pushing so I gave him what he wanted (you know there wasn’t going to be a second date, right?).  I told him that I had serious issues with commitment. Why did he need this information so badly?  Well, after the date he attempted to contact me viva text for a second date (although, I made it clear that I didn’t like texting that much and preferred phone calls) but I had no intention of going out with this creep again.  So I just ignored his text and every day for a week he left one.  The final text he left said something like, “Are your commitment issues that bad that you won’t give me a chance? That’s really ashame “.  A few months went by and I bump into him at a cocktail party and he is desperate to get my attention but of course I didn’t acknowledge him for obvious reasons.  He finally he cornered me and said “Well, I see that you’re still single and I could have helped you with your commitment issues.  Good luck on being alone, forever.” 
     
    This guy wanted personal information on the first date (of the psychology kind in particular ) so that he could use this very information (my commitment issues) in an attempt to get what he wanted from me and to have the upper hand.  Basically, he was attempting to mindf@#k me and if I was desperate enough to enter into a relationship with this loser you could only imagine the mental and psychological hell I would have been put through.  I think about this guy and I just cringe.  But what he didn’t count on was that I too am quite versed in psychology and if he wanted to mindf@#k me he had better had been Feud himself.

    Now, I am not telling you this to say that all short men are evil, manipulative, abusive, and insecure, jerks who are controlling. It’s really a cautionary tale to women in the reading audience to be careful of men who want to “fix” you. And I’m also pointing out that looks, height and social status have very little to do with a man’s character.
    I
     

94. Ruby 94

    A few years back, i remember a conversation I had with a gay male friend. He mentioned that he was looking for a serious relationship, and felt frustrated because he wasn’t in one. He had also mentioned a man he was dating, so i asked “What about him?” He answered that this man was just a sex buddy. He said that the beauty of gay male sexuality was that he could casually fulfill his sexual needs while continuing to look for a serious relationship, and that it was completely acceptable. I could see where this might carry over to a long-term gay relationship that had gotten a bit stale. Not the easiest thing for most of us to do, however.

95. SS 95

    Lisa M.,
     
    When confronted with the “why are you single” question, I wouldn’t answer and always would ask them why they were single. They usually clammed up after that.
     
    (not that you have to worry about that particular guy anymore) 
     
     

96. Kate Candy 96

    There was a time when I thought my activist friends would change the landscape of marriage.  The gay men I know do not include monogamy as part of the contract of “happily ever after.”  One friend explained to me that the man he lived with was the man he “wanted to see every day.”  He had adventures outside of that relationship.  They were not unemotional, but they were sporadic and short-term.  The point is that neither he nor his partner expected fidelity.  I think Dan Savage is asking us to temper our expectations.  One way to see this is to compare it with the job market thirty years ago and currently.  When my mother got a job, it was for life.  Nowadays, there is no job security.  Many people are at will employees which means they can be let go at any time, for any reason.  To remain employed, employees need to constantly evolve while remaining aware of the cultural climate.  One cannot take a job for granted. 

    It used to be that marriage was the goal and being married meant you were in it until one partner died.  Laws changed and divorce is no longer scandalous.  It is possible that, in the future, having short-term relationships outside of the primary live-in alliance will be accepted.  The upside is that partners will need to assess the relationship and check in with their partner’s happiness.  It means putting aside one’s own insecurities to get in touch with your partner.  It means not being threatened by honesty.  (Yes, Baby, you DO look fat.)  I think having an option for extra-curricular behavior will ultimately strengthen some marriages and reveal others that are running on fumes. 

97. Karl R 97

    JerseyGirl said: (#89)
    “All this talk about how rich, handsome, social and socially connected men are the only ones that act badly is nonsense.”

    Find one article or post in all of Evan’s blogs where either Evan or I claim that only rich, handsome and socially connected men act badly.

    Rich, handsome, charming men are more likely to act badly (for two reasons I’ve listed below), but there’s nothing preventing any other man from acting badly.

    1. If someone has George Clooney’s looks, money and charm, he can treat women like disposable objects and still have hundreds more clamoring for his attention. There’s no penalty to him for acting badly.

    2. If someone is rich, handsome, charming, a wonderful person on the inside and looking for a long-term relationship, he’s not on the market long.

    But I’ve certainly seen less desirable men behave poorly towards women too. Nobody expects you to assume the guy is a saint just because he’s average (or below average) in any of those traits.

    JerseyGirl said: (#89)
    “You keep telling me I only go for a certain type of man”
    JerseyGirl said: (#82)
    “I don’t date younger men and I stopped dating older ones”

    Actually you told everyone on this blog that you only date men who are your age. I was unaware of that until you mentioned it.

    So, provided you were being honest in post #82, you’re only dating in a fairly narrow age range. Unless you’re in high school or college, that’s going to significantly restrict your pool of men.

    JerseyGirl said: (#82)
    “I found out that older men that dated me were usally just like the younger men, immature.”

    There are immature men of all ages. There are also mature men of all ages. So if your goal is a mentally/emotionally mature man (I realize you didn’t explicitly say that, but it is a reasonable inference to draw from your implied dislike of immature men), I can’t see how you’re getting any closer to that goal by not dating men of varying ages.

    JerseyGirl said: (#89)
    “Over a week ago I went out with a 5’6, 33, divorced man [...] He wasn’t interested in me but [...] It’s just as easy to get dumped by a short guy as it is a tall guy.”

    So what’s your point?

    I’ve dumped a number of women over the years. My height was never a factor in my decision to dump them.

    Do you decide whether or not to dump men based on your height? If not, why on earth would you be expecting something different from men?

    JerseyGirl said: (#89)
    “Sometimes short, balding, fat, average guys have a lot of nonsense about themselves too. That is all I am saying.”

    That’s correct. It’s also irrelevant to Evan’s point (and mine).

    In 2009 I dated four older women. The first was 9 years older than me. She had a temper, anger issues and ended up dumping me. The second was 6 years older. She decided she wanted someone younger and more energetic than me (even though I was younger and more energetic then her). The third was 11 years older than me. After a mediocre first date, neither of us wanted a second date.

    That’s the same kind of nonsense that I encountered with women who were my age and younger. That’s dating.

    But the fourth older woman (16 years older) turned out to be amazing. Older women aren’t necessarily any better than younger women. But the perfect woman for me happens to be 16 years older.

    After the first three, I could have decided (correctly) that there was nothing particularly special about older women, and I could have used that decision to justify only dating women my age or younger. If I’d done that, I wouldn’t be engaged right now.

    When Evan encourages people to broaden their type, it’s because the amazing people aren’t necessarily our preferred height, age, education, income, etc.

    For some people, monogamy may be an area they are flexible about. I’m not particularly flexible about it. Based on personal experience, I have well-considered reasons for choosing monogamy. Regardless of whether you (or I) wish to be flexible about it, other people will be.

    And regardless of how we feel about it, either one of us could end up facing the decision Honey did (#72). Do you keep an otherwise terrific person after they’ve done something foolish and hurtful?

98. A-L 98

    Another blog I read had a post on this same article by Dan Savage.  What I think many of the women here would find interesting is to read the comments on the other thread (there’s currently 150 of them, and I admittedly only red about half).  They are almost all by other females, so perhaps hearing other interpretations of the article without a perceived gender bias (that some of the females think that men might have) might be helpful. 

    As far as my own take on this issue goes, I think this article is encouraging people to view infidelity more as a flaw rather than a fatal flaw.  Meaning that it’s a problem, it can be devastating, and lots of work will be needed to get over it.  But it’s not fatal.  Meaning that with hard work a committed relationship can overcome infidelity.  So it’s not a free pass to cheat, but it’s not an automatic death sentence either.  And in that respect it reflects my own views as well.

99. Evan Marc Katz 99

    Great post, A-L. And I very much like the way those readers reacted – with a full view that Savage isn’t endorsing cheating at all; he’s endorsing honesty and understanding.

100. Jadafisk 100

     “After the first three, I could have decided (correctly) that there was nothing particularly special about older women, and I could have used that decision to justify only dating women my age or younger. If I’d done that, I wouldn’t be engaged right now.

     When Evan encourages people to broaden their type, it’s because the amazing people aren’t necessarily our preferred height, age, education, income, etc.”
     I think people want to be immediately rewarded for their “newfound openness” with a loyal long-term partner, and if they can’t be, they want the immediate gratification of having entertained the advances of an appealing partner/series of them in the interim. Without either one, they feel cheated and like they’ve wasted their time doing something that wasn’t as fun as it could’ve been, nor as beneficial/edifying as it should’ve been. They don’t want to do the error portion of trial and error with people they consider significantly less ideal, especially when “testing sexual compatibility” is considered part of a complete girlfriend application, and they’re being told to listen to their loins less when choosing who to date.
     Also, definitions of “amazing” may indeed be based on the aforementioned traits. Many people have similar ideas about what amazing entails, and it creates a supply/demand imbalance. Fortunately, “amazing” (exceeds high personal expectations) and “necessary” aren’t the same thing. Most people are going to end up with someone unamazing just like themselves, but good enough to live with for a few decades and develop a sentimental attachment to.

101. jonseyj 101

     Anyone want to hear one more?
      
     I have been on both sides of the indiscretion issue. There are two authors who I feel speak with nuance on the subject rather than black/white, good/bad, wired/not wired, male/female polarity.  One is Marianne Williamson in her book “A Woman’s Worth”.  I don’t have the exact quote, but she says she has counseled couples in monogamous and open marriages and there is no silver bullet type of relationship.  Both have advantages and disadvantages.  If you REALLY want a story about true transparent honesty (NOT “I got drunk and had sex” kindergarten level honesty) concerning this issue, read Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks book “The Conscious Heart” and specifically the chapter “Breakup or Breakthrough: How We Confronted a Sexual Crisis”.  It’s not for the weak of heart.  It shows how complicated the honesty thing really is: not just honesty with your spouse/partner, but with yourself.  

102. Darren Miller 102

     My girlfriend and I have talked about this topic because before I was with her and even at the very beginning of the relationship I was definitely a guy who couldn’t keep his urges to himself and liked women a lot.

     My girlfriend and I both agree that it is human nature that men are programmed to spread their seed as much as possible, whereas women want one partner to raise their offspring with. Just look at the animal world and this is the case.

     This is why my girlfriend allows the ‘look but don’t touch’ rule. She understands that it is natural for me to look at other women and I will often make a comment about a women in the street to her. She usually just rolls her eyes or laughs at my choice of woman.

     However, I do believe that men can be faithful and they don’t have to give in to their instincts if they find that one special girl, as I have now. I have no need to cheat on her or ‘spread my seed’ because we make sure that our sex life is interesting and new. Even though I am sleeping with the same girl it can feel like I am with different girls. You just have to mix it up.

103. Honey 103

     @Darren, #102 – actually, lots of mammals (primates especially, but any mammal that lives in relatively large groups consisting primarily of nonrelatives) have very promiscuous females because if there is no way to tell who fathered a particular baby, then all the males in the social group will provide for the child.  It is different for obvious reasons for mammals that live in kin-groups or those that live primarily alone or in pairs.

     Once human societies made the intellectual connection between sex and parenthood, social structures began to revolve around mongamy, but as far as our “wiring” – 1) biologically there is equal incentive for both sexes to be promiscuous, and 2) IMO, what makes us human human is having the ability to allow our intellect, and not our biology, to drive our decision-making.

     FWIW, there are still some tribes of people in South America who believe that a single child is multiply-fathered by everyone the woman had sex with.  The whole tribe is pretty much equally invested in all children as a result, and as social structures go, I think that sounds a lot more idyllic than this whole “it’s my genes or no one’s” business.

104. Gem 104

     I asked the man I’m dating if he believed it were possible to be happy and sexually fulfilled having sex with the same woman for the rest of his life.

     I didn’t ask if he believed it were possible to be faithful. Being faithful and being sexually fulfilled are two different things. You can be faithful and  miserable.

     He said, “yes” without missing a beat. We talked about men and variety and he said that he could have variety with one woman and never feel tempted to stray. But it would require open communication and both partners making it a priority to be sexually adventerous, experimental and open in the ways they each wanted.

     Does he look? Yes. Does he fantasize about threesomes” Yes. Would he want an open relationship? He said no. Because he couldn’t accept the thought of his woman/wife with another man, and he wouldn’t do something that he couldn’t accept his woman doing.

     So instead of him having his secret fantasies, I bring them into the bedroom. Sometimes while having sex I ask him what he’d want to do if there was another woman with us. We talk “dirty” with each other constructing a scene with this imaginary woman and the sex is fun and different. And that’s the point. We accept each other without judgment and talk extremely open about these things. That is what makes ours the best sex we’ve each ever had.

     As far as cheating? He said he would probably forgive me because knowing me and my integrity, I would never do that unless there was something seriously amiss in our relationship and he’d want to fix it instead of throw it away. As far as I’m concerned, because of my integrity as a person, I’d never cheat in the first place.

     Me? I don’t think I’d be that forgiving. But, I haven’t been in that situation so I don’t know for sure.

105. elle 105

     The interesting thing about infidelity is men can dish it out but they can’t take it.  When a married woman cheats on her man he is less likely to forgive and will more than likely divorce her**
     Monogamy isn’t easy for a lot of people, but maybe that’s why it’s worth striving for.  It’s definitely better for raising a family.  It’s easy to just be a whoreslut who jumps on anyone you have fond feelings for.  If, and this is a big if, a man could have his piece on the side without disrespecting and drawing emotional commitment away from his wife/significant other then I would say, why not? 
     Honestly, if my husband had some woman he liked to screw in some far flung country or saw prostitutes in another city but I didn’t know about it more power to him if it served to keep him physically and emotionally by my side.  But that would never happen.  That’s because people have affairs or want to do people close to home with whom they share a bond. The emotional bond and chemistry comes before the deed. That’s why Facebook, the job, your relatives, your friends are all prime for hookups.
     Very few straight men have the charisma or cash to have women just jump on their d*** without first investing emotionally.  Men aren’t as picky or require qualifications aside from looking appealing for sex.  Women are choosier because they have more to lose.  We have babies and we want a man that will stick around and invest resources in us and our child.  If he’s bopping around screwing everything that moves, he isn’t doing that. 
     Gay men don’t naturally have that dimension of family and children.  I imagine that’s why gay men do it a whole lot more and are probably not as faithful and more tolerant of sex outside of a primary relationship. 
     It would be interesting to see what would happen if a woman said to her man: “Look, you can screw anyone you want as long as it’s out of town, not in our social circle, you don’t get emotionally involved, come home every night and give your best to this relationship and I never have a clue that you’re sleeping around (e.g., your paramours are not calling my house, you’re not screwing them in our house or car, no surprise children, etc.).”  Because this is the only way I would accept or agree to a non-monogamous relationship. 
     However, like I said, no male would accept this because I don’t think its possible.
      

106. elle 106

     @ Melanie
     You absolutely did the right thing.  Whatever is a deal breaker for you is a deal breaker for you, period.  And the MF was dating these women and giving them gifts?  WTF.  Who was his girlfriend again?  Right, you were.  Dishonestly, sneaking around and giving women attention that rightfully belongs to you should be a deal breaker for any woman.  Now you have learned something very important about relationships.  Don’t forget it. 

107. Vicki 107

     According to “Select Men Wisely”, by David Shade, men with low self esteem are promiscuous and much more likely to cheat. Men with high self esteem do not. He lays out some pretty good guidelines for sifting out the losers. 
      
     I personally think that cheating, by either gender, is a function of self-esteem, but also of the relationship blueprint they were handed by their parents. 
      
     If they have cheating fathers or grandfathers in their family trees, look out. Always screen the family tree, and pay close attention to how a guy’s father treats his mother. If the man already has a history of infidelity, or his father was unfaithful to his mother, you should just let him go be somebody else’s problem.
      
     It’s not a matter of being too picky to find a mate. It’s a reasonable way to weed out the relationship-unworthy. This is your life you’re talking about, and you don’t have time to take on “charity cases” (that’s to quote David Shade!).
      
     Having said that, I would never eliminate dating a guy who was 5’4″, or bald, or made less than 6 figures, etc etc. A lot of those “deal breakers” just wouldn’t occur to me (but then, I’m short too, and I’m not a “high earner” myself, so I can’t really expect a man to be either, right?). I think for me, I can handle a lot of the superficial “dealbreakers” a lot of women have regarding height, looks, money, profession, etc. My dealbreakers are only those things that affect the quality of the relationship I’m getting into. Infidelity (or a history of it) is a big dealbreaker for me.
      
     I think I also read about a study somewhere, about a genetic element in men who cheat? Like there is actually a particular DNA sequence that is more common in men who are cheaters. I think it was a Swedish study? Can’t remember where I saw it, sorry, but genetics plays a part here, not just gender. 
      
     I happen to live in the city with I think the highest per capita female membership on AshleyMadison.com, so I can’t beat men with a stick about infidelity – the ladies around this town don’t hesitate to cheat when they please.
      
     I’m not “wired” to be unfaithful in a committed relationship myself, but I *have* “abandoned” dating relationships for better prospects before, without really announcing I was leaving the dating relationship. I guess that’s technically “cheating”, but I’m not sure a guy who doesn’t call for 4 weeks (or more) at a time even deserves my fidelity anyway. Any agreement for exclusivity is null and void if the guy pulls a disappearing act, in my opinion.

108. Mitch 108

     “I’m not advocating for cheating, but a rethinking of what’s “effective”, given human desires, the value of a stable relationship, and the length of a lifetime commitment.”
     Yes you are! You’re 100% advocating cheating, the KNOWN destroyer of relationships, trust, and happiness.

     (Silly man; it’s not cheating if both parties agree to the arrangement. – EMK)

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