Should I Stay With My Boyfriend If He’s a Pick-Up Artist?
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Hello Evan,
I’ve been exclusively dating a nice guy for almost eight months now. We’ve had good times together and he is always there for me when I need him. The thing is, before he met me, he was very promiscuous. (I don’t have a lot of dating experience.) He’s very into how men attract women and how they market themselves on the dating scene. When we watch movies with a relationship plotline, he takes care to tell me what the man is doing right/wrong. He wishes to have a motivational speaking career or a relationship counseling career when he graduates.
What bothers me is that he wants to teach guys how to attract women. The worst thing is that he says he wants to practice picking up women and getting numbers in order to be able to teach them. He says he’s not going to use the numbers or anything but he wants to practice so he can teach others and so he gains credibility as an attraction expert. He asked me if that was OK with me. I’m not stupid, and this bothers me a lot. He’s told me that he’s not going to do it since it bothers me, but this is the 3rd time he’s asked this question. He told me not to tell my friends that he asked the question, because they would probably think it was weird. I want to know how or IF I can get him to curb his flirtatious ways. I’ve explained to him how important it is to me but he doesn’t seem to get it. I want our relationship to work. Is he just not a one-woman man?
Jen
Wow, Jen. This is a question that could NOT have been asked five years ago.
Suddenly, lifetime virgins realize that all it takes to have a little “game” is a decent opening line and the confidence to fail. It’s a lesson, frankly, that EVERYBODY should learn. If only more people were as proactive as the PUAs, there’d be a lot more action and a lot less complaining out there.
Thanks to the emergence of the pick-up artist (PUA) community, there’s an entire subculture devoted to the very pursuits that fascinate your boyfriend. And, really, it IS fascinating, from a psychological perspective. A group of socially awkward men have learned, through trial and error, the SCIENCE of attracting women. In order to arrive at these techniques, they go out frequently to refine what works and what doesn’t, before reporting back to their online communities.
Pathetic? Maybe. Effective? Definitely.
Suddenly, lifetime virgins realize that all it takes to have a little “game” is a decent opening line and the confidence to fail. It’s a lesson, frankly, that EVERYBODY should learn. If only more people were as proactive as the PUAs, there’d be a lot more action and a lot less complaining out there. Of course, the problem is that some men turn this pursuit into a sport, a hobby and an obsession all rolled into one. And if you’re the girlfriend of one of these guys, watch out. It’s hard to feel secure when your boyfriend is picking up on other women, if only to further his “career”…
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107 Comments »Filed Under Flirting
Steve 1
Jan;
There is nothing wrong with what your boyfriend is about except for:
What bothers me is that he wants to teach guys how to attract women. The worst thing is that he says he wants to practice picking up women and getting numbers in order to be able to teach them
and
but this is the 3rd time he’s asked this question. He told me not to tell my friends
The fact that he is continuing to ask you, I think, means that he isn’t going to give up on his avocation and career aspirations.
Steve 2
I’ve dated a few hundred people, written a couple of books, and coached thousands of people to dating success. If I never go on another date or see the inside of a club again, I would be THRILLED.
LOL! I feel that way and I only dated a few dozen people
Steve 3
I’m not endorsing PUAs nor am I busting Evan’s chops but
they go out frequently to refine what works and what doesn’t, before reporting back to their online communities.
Pathetic? Maybe. Effective? Definitely.
Isn’t that what non “socially awkward” men do while they are growing up. PUAs just seem to be doing it later in life. Even it isn’t it doesn’t seem that different from women experimenting with different looks and comparing notes with their friends on how to handle men to get/keep better social lives.
Lance 4
Hahaha Holy cow this is awesome!
Lance 5
C’mon Evan, you’re totally off on this. You know I love ya though.
Many of the PUA instructors have serious girlfriends and are in monogamous relationships. AFC Adam, Tyler Durden, Style, Mystery, etc etc. Once you have the skills and the knowledge, it becomes EASIER, not harder, to separate yourself from your work (teaching social skills). Why? Because you know the ins and outs of attraction and frankly you’re better equipped to handle a LTR. If the writer’s bf were simply a skeezy player, then I’d be worried, but since he’s serious about growing a business and teaching other guys, he’s GOLD. Seriously, this guy is a major catch. Notice that the girl isn’t knocking the bf as a partner or man; she’s actually complimentary of him.
Further, several of the instructors have gf’s that they taught attraction science, then had them join the company as other instructors!! So now your gf is helping other guys improve their social lives. It’s win-win.
The true issue here is the security of Jen. She’s worried that he’ll mess around, which he won’t. This is easy to fix…she simply needs to go out with him in the field and work as a pivot. They’d have a blast and it would them grow together. Problem solved.
Lastly, there’s very little difference between what you do and what a PUA does. You’re both teaching people how to attract mates, only the tools and venues are different.
Selena 6
“The worst thing is that he says he wants to practice picking up women and getting numbers in order to be able to teach them. He says he’s not going to use the numbers or anything but he wants to practice so he can teach others and so he gains credibility as an attraction expert.”
Women just love guys who come on to them, get their numbers and never call. Oh yeah. Great research project if you don’t care who you might hurt. Frankly Jen, I’d be skeptical of your fellow’s morals. Does he have something against following a traditional educational path in psychology to become a relationship counselor? What your guy is calling ‘research’ doesn’t seem legitimate for someone claiming to be in a serious relationship. You’d probably be better off catching up with him when he’s done with the research part of his self-styled program. If you were still interested.
Kevin (ReturnToManliness) 7
@Lance…this IS awesome….I love it…
I think his wanting to increase his skills is great. You wouldn’t want him to stop going to the gym and looking good, so why would him wanting to increase his flirting skill set bother you. I would think you want to him to continue his flirtatious ways with you forever – if you and he are the real deal. And if you are the real deal, you have nothing to worry about.
I would NEVER cheat on my wife, but she enjoys that I have great interpersonal skills and want to help others. The PUA is just as overrated as anything. It always comes down to the individual and how they intend to use their skills and share them with others. I’m all for it, but that being said, you should always keep an eye on the situation. Men are not that complicated. We love the chase…it injects life into us…
Chris 8
Steve is absolutely right in his comment on the PUAs being like women who analyse how they can influence their “market value”. I remember David DeAngelo, renound PUA, say something close to:
“Women have ‘The Rules’ (a book by Fein/Schneider), men have no clue.”
Mather of fact, virtually all PUAs are men that suffered from their strictly logical thinking before they entered the pickup community. Considering the transcript, social interaction is mostly nothing but superfluent repetitions of ever the same. Nothing ingenious, barely guided by logic and lacking structure. So they’re stuck. In addition, asking people how they would like to be interacted with is not getting anywhere, because people aren’t truely awere of their motives. (Critically acclaimed psychologist McClelland actually proofed the latter.)
Instead of playing the painful game of social pinball and finding the Do’s and Don’ts the hard way, most man would resign and/or hope for a miracle. I personally believe this to be the reason why most married people met their partner at the workplace. They just didn’t go anywhere else and as coworkers you can’t help but to get to know each other.
No Hope? Not nowadays where the pickup community figuered out the hidden rules of social interactions. It all makes sense now and it all follows LOGICAL rules so the once awkward logical brainers can digest it. I myself just can’t stop exploiting every resource on the topic. Why? Because of the epiphanies, because of understanding the elusive obvious! It was all there, right in front of me, but I just couldn’t understand and wouldn’t participate because I many bad experiences made me think I couldn’t handle it.
So whether the whole pickup science is right or wrong, it gives its ambitioned students structure, plot and detailed how-to on socializing and it works.
But wait. WARNING: Even members of the pickup comunity critically report a strange bias towards promiscuity and a kindalike pickup sport whitout any deeper meaning.
So Jen, after all it’s still up to you. PUAs are true saviors in their teaching and if you’re the first girl to get him and keep him that long, he definitly has soemthing going for you more than for every other woman before and those certainly were high caliber as well. On the other hand, doubt ist reasonable.
JuJu 9
I dunno… I personally wouldn’t want to be with the guy just because this preoccupation says so much about his maturity, enlightenment, and intellectual level.
Steve 10
Lance;
Post #5, very interesting. However, even if I felt 100% sure that gf would never cheat on me it would still rub me the wrong way knowing that she was out practicing how to pick up men.
Steve 11
I’m not a PUA nor am I likely to be. I did read “The Game” after reading Evan’s article on it several months ago. It is the article he linked to in the post above. Neil Strauss was a professional writer and his skills show in the book. There is so much you can say about the book, but I thought Evan hit the nail on the head with one haiku-like line
Women will find it distasteful but fascinating. Men will find it fascinating but distasteful.
I also thought this quote, in this article was fantastic. A lot can and should be said on the subject other than just this quote, but it boils down to this for everyone male or female
all it takes to have a little game is a decent opening line and the confidence to fail.
JuJu 12
Seriously, the more I think about this, the more it puzzles me: why would anyone want to be with a pickup artist, period, regardless of what he does in his spare time?
Really, it’s one thing to just practice the act, it’s quite another to actually explain it in detail to one’s existing girlfriend. This is some compromising information about oneself.
You know what message constructing all these algorithms sends to the female brain? If he has to analyze human sexual behavior so and make a science of it in order to have some semblance of success with the opposite sex, THIS IS ONE UNDESIRABLE MALE.
This is all coming from someone not in the least concerned with her partner’s “rung” in the animal hierarchy, mind you.
$Francisco 13
I’m with Evan on this one, wrong place and time. Too bad this guy isn’t at a level where he can teach other guys, watch THEM in the field and tell them what they’ve done wrong. The guy could even accompany him as a wingman without needing to get women’s phone numbers at all. Better yet, he could teach PUA wannabees how to have a viable relationship after meeting the right girl. There’s so many options which could work without taking his relationship for granted. Hell, he could ask his girl to help him by going out to a club and allow random guys to flirt with her and attempt to pick her up. She can report on her finding. Don’t laugh, he could agree to it; REALLY! *snicker*
A-L 14
I’ve got two questions.
Do you trust the guy? If you trust him, then you should trust him even if he’s spending the summer at the Playboy Mansion.
Secondly, how many women have issues dating plastic surgeons? These are men who see and create the perfect female body, all day, and yet I don’t think they have a problem finding a girlfriend or wife. I would have more of an issue dating a plastic surgeon because I’d probably feel as though he was always mentally critiquing my body, whereas this PUA stuff is really just increasing one’s comfort/skills.
At the same time, I can understand the awkwardness about your boyfriend constantly trying to pick up women, but the bottom line is trust. If you don’t trust him, don’t stay with him.
Selena 15
Steve,
Practicing how to pick up men? What an odd notion. I don’t know any women for whom that idea has ever occured. If we want to actually pick up men we don’t practice. We buy a new outfit or two and consider changing our hair.
And yeah, I like Evan’s summation too: “all it takes to have a little game is a decent opening line and the confidence to fail.” Maybe that actually can be taught, but it seems catagorically different than collecting phone numbers purely for sport. Perhaps leaving a wake of women wondering what happened, what they did wrong and writing to Evan about it.
Lance 16
You people are going to hurt my feelings
@Francisco: High level instructors do exactly what you’re describing. If the bf is honorable, they can make this work. Again, an easy solution is to have them go in tandem and practice gaming at the same time…she could be part of the business as an instructor. It would be a blast.
Would you be bashing Jen’s bf is he said he simply wanted to be a “dating coach?” The difference between EMK and David Wygant and a PUA instructor are semantics. They’re all dealing in attraction. The all got their skills in similar ways. The potential for abuse is there with all of those guys. EMK does online game and the PUA’s focus on bars. EMK has a skillset that he COULD use to attract a zillion chicks, but he doesn’t, and his gf trusts him (I assume). You should give this dude the benefit of a doubt.
Hot Alpha Female 17
Man i love this topic. N I’m totally with Lance on this one.
I think that PUA’s are actually really great guys. Usually they are guys that have been frustrated in the past and have actually gotten off their butt to do something about it.
Jen: I dont really see what your boyfriend wants to do by expanding his career like that … is a problem.
I think that if he really wanted to get back out there .. that he could and he would.
He is with you for a reason. If he is as good as he thinks and says that he is .. then he wouldn’t need to string you along. So i dont think that he is.
But i do think that he enjoys this area and he wants to expand on that and as a girlfriend you have to respect that.
Why dont you see how it goes after he tries it for a while? At the end of the day it comes down to trust. DO you trust him not to cross the line? Or is it that you are just feeling a little insecure about the women that he meets.
At the end of the day .. you have got to remember that you are fabulous and he is with you for a reason ….
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Selena 18
Lance,
What I get out of Evan’s work is that he strives to foster understanding between the genders–through Honesty. This is different from a man in a serious relationship who goes out to collect phone numbers from women with no intention of follow through simply to prove it can be done. Where is the honesty in that?
In fact, it would seem likely to have the effect of making women MORE skeptical about men’s sincerity, honesty and integrity–reinforcing the belief that ALL men are shallow, players, and pigs. Where is the percentage in that for the hopeful guys out there hoping to improve their social skills enough to get a date and eventually a real relationship? Might they get dismissed by being lumped into an aribtrary negative catagory because of ‘other’ guys?
Not to hurt your feelings Lance, but aren’t you really about dating casually and having sex buddies at this stage in your life rather than a monogamous relationship?
Fransico’s ideas are intriguing. If Jen’s bf really wanted to help the socially inept he could have them practice on picking up Jen. She would likely be much more valuable at pointing out what the guys were doing either right or wrong when it came to social interaction with women than he would.
Mike Stoute 19
Hmm. Is it just a coincidence that I was at a boot camp this past weekend hanging out with a Guru AFC Adam (for promotion purposes and to film video) and my girlfriend “Jenn” broke up with me?
This sounds too close to home. If this is you jenn, you definitely jumped to conclusions and I am sorry that this whole thing is too much for you. It all comes down to you trusting me. I can’t make someone trust me; they have to have a little faith. Maybe you are not strong enough as you said to me in a text, that really sucks.
Another thing, I don’t go out and get numbers, I just went out and worked with his students to help them feel more comfortable in the scene.
Maybe this isn’t you Jenn, but if it is, I feel you made a mistake..
Just so everyone knows, I am a great man and boyfriend. Even my friends were shocked at this whole thing. As they said, “Your better than most guys who are perceived as “awesome boyfriends”.
Such a shame..
Mike Stoute 20
Excuse my grammar..
You’re better than most guys who are perceived as awesome boyfriends.
Cathouse Teri 21
It is not even remotely attractive to me that a man would want to go out and do field work to learn how to attract a woman. To get numbers and never use them. To use women as specimens and see them as marketing tools. To view the dating scene as a place to gather information and strategies. I see a huge difference between how Evan presents his theories and how this man wants to go out and develop theories. Evan was dating and he was serious about it. He shares his genuine experiences with others. This man is treating it as a game. He is purposely going out to create different environments so he can teach men how to be successful with women. I tell you what. This man would not be successful with me. It’s his character that concerns me. And how he views women and the potential union with them. I also believe he wants to have his cake and eat it too. I would never encourage him to pursue this avenue and line of thinking and would definitely not get seriously involved with him. This, to me, is a very unhealthy path.
Mike Stoute 22
It’s about teaching social skills, not ploys for getting laid. If you read our site you will quickly see that although we make jokes and are content is sometimes racy, our articles are real and totally geared towards being a better person and man in life.
Evan Marc Katz 23
To Mike and any other PUA’s reading this…
It’s not the content that is so abhorrent to most people – it’s the goal of the content. For example, I clicked on Mike’s site to see if, in fact, he was being straight with me. He was. Kind of.
The first article I saw was in a section called Pick Up and Seduction and was called How to Talk a Woman into Bed.
Sleazy title. No two ways about it. Any woman looking at that is going to feel like an object, not a person. Yet the advice itself, as many PUA’s have pointed out, is pretty solid, and is not necessarily all that different than the advice I would give to men.
I just give it with a different goal in mind. I try to help men understand women to give them the greatest opportunity to have a relationship. PUAs speak to their audience, which often focuses on the act of getting laid.
Now, to be clear, getting laid is part of the process of looking for a relationship. Date around long enough, you’ll get some practice. I just think it’s important to focus on the long-term goal. Some readers of that PUA material are really just nice shy guys who need a helping hand in understanding how to connect with a woman. The problem is when it becomes inauthentic – canned lines, NLP, and technique. Then you’re playing the role of a man, not really being your best self. If everything you do is calculated to achieve a result, where do you exist and the pick-up artist end?
These are things to think about.
So, in all, PUA’s (like my friend Lance) are not universally bad guys. However, when the ulterior motive (sex) trumps anything relationship oriented (as it does when the title is How to Talk a Woman Into Bed), it’s pretty hard to make a strong endorsement of it – no matter how wise the advice may be.
EMK
JB 24
Out of curiosity Mike, how old are you & Jen ? It might help to know for perspective. Yes, age does matter for maturity purposes.
Also it sounds like you may be a bit too young and aren’t really ready to be in a committed relationship. I’ve never tried it but it’s gotta be tough practicing “pick-up” while being IN a relationship.
I’m in my 40′s, never married and have been meeting women for 30 yrs. I’ve studied everything in the community on BOTH sides including Christian Carter’s stuff just so I could learn and gain more knowledge. I’m not, nor do consider myself a “pick up artist”.
I enjoy meeting women and strive to have healthy relationships. I don’t tell women everything I’ve watched or read and know about.
If they asked me I’d be more than happy to tell them that I love learning about men,women and relationships and why people do what they do. That’s all. Like was said here before,many in the community are happy,healthy sharp guys who have successful committed realtionships who just wanted to learn why things are the way they are. And I’m not talking about the Guru’s,teachers etc…I’m talking about the rest of us who just like to learn different opinions etc..
I do agree with Selena and other’s who said going out and getting phone numbers just for sport or for your statistics is just WRONG.
Noone deserves deception and you asking or taking a women’s phone number to “see if you can get it” leads them on and may hurt them. ie: “One more guy that took my number and didn’t call”
Thus ruining it for the next guy who may really be interested.
Lance 25
@Selena: You pointed out a pretty good hole in my argument and also a potential issue with Jen’s bf. Going out and harvesting numbers just for the sake of getting numbers with no intention of using them is indeed a negative. It pisses her off and has the unfortunate side effect of conditioning her to NOT give her number out to future suitors. So, good point.
I do not go out and harvest numbers, for the most part. I go out and socialize with pretty much everyone, guys and girls, beautiful or “ugly,” with no attachment to the outcome. If I do happen across an attractive gal and we do exchange contact info, then I
would have every intention of calling her. I’m to the point now where I don’t even ask for numbers…I’ll wait until she asks me. That way, I know it’s truly on and that we’re on the same page. Jen’s bf would get to this same point after a certain number of approaches and interactions. But he still needs to do the field work to be a legitimate dating coach.
We’re sort of talking about me now and not Jen’s bf, but yes I’m in a casual dating mode at the moment. If I was in an LTR, I would have zero problem separating out my field work from my relationship. My gf could rest assured that she’s dating an emotionally secure, experienced, and confident dude. I wouldn’t cheat on her, even if I socialized with an amazingly hot women who waved sex in my face. Why? Because I’ve conditioned myself to not be affected by physical beauty because I’ve seen so much it. Can any of the “regular” guys out there say that?
@cathouse: You’ve stated on my blog that you’ve had a large number of sexual partners, far more than the average population. In my book, that makes you a “player,” and you’ve likely spent a large amount of time in field getting these partners. In bars and whatnot. You could, if you wanted, offer dating advice because of your extraordinary experiences. How much different is that from Jen’s bf? At least the end goal for him is to grow a business and help others, which I find very honorable. BTW, I’ve got no problem female players or women who sleep with a lot of dudes. In fact, I kind of like it.
Mike Stoute 26
EMK,
Maybe you should have read more than the title:
How to Talk Women into Bed by Ross Jeffries
TSB Magazine is a portal, not a personal blog.. We are journalists in the industry. The articles that are written by myself and Bobby generally involve our crazy hook-up stories, and our thoughts of being a better man.
In fact if you listen a recent radio show we did with the author of the post you reference you will see how much our styles clashed and how we don’t like him either.
It is content in our industry and we do cover it.
I think it would be wrong of me to assume you like BBW’s and are a regular user on Adult Friend Finder because you promote them, no?
Not that I don’t like BBW’s
Mike Stoute 27
I am 31 btw
Mike Stoute 28
Sorry My former gf Jenn is 25, if this is indeed her..
Steve 29
Evan Marc Katz Jun 20th 2008 at 09:16 am 23
To Mike and any other PUA s reading this
It’s not the content that is so abhorrent to most people – it’s the goal of the content.
I disagree. I think where PUAs go wrong is with their presentation, not their goals. Nobody likes article titles like “how to talk a woman into bed” but women want sex too. There are even a number of women who want casual sex. Women also want to have fun conversations with confident tactful men when they go out. It seems that is just what *most* of these guys teach, they just wrap it in adolescent language.
Evan Marc Katz 30
Not the best argument, Mike. Linking to every available online dating site is not tantamount to promoting them.
Say what you will about your clashes with Ross Jeffries, but if you’re posting his material on your website, there’s a tacit endorsement of him. On the other hand, I can assure you there will never be any Ross Jeffries material on here. If I can’t stand by it as healthy for my readership, it’s not appropriate for this blog.
I’m not saying you’re a bad guy or pick up artists are all bad guys; rather, I’m saying that anything entitled “How to Seduce Women Into Bed” is focused on the wrong motives.
Keep doing what you’re doing. There’s plenty of room out there for all of us in the advice industry. I just choose to consort with people out for relationships, that’s all.
Steve 31
I like to read the book reviews on Amazon after I read a book to see what other people think. Evan’s article inspired me to read “The Game” by Neil Strauss. It was clear that a number of reviewers didn’t read the book but were commenting on their preconceptions of “players”. In his book Strauss showed various PUAs ( including himself ) in both positive and negative lights. One thing that I noticed that separated the PUA’s (even the scummy ones ) from players is that at no time did they every lie to the women they approached. It was Strauss’ personal policy never to lie.
Despite that, these guys had no shortage of pickups and dates.
Nobody was being lied to, drugged, hypnotized or manipulated.
Those women were exercising their prerogative as intelligent adults to choose to pursue a guy who approached them further.
Nobody is victimized.
Steve 32
Evan Marc Katz Jun 20th 2008 at 10:01 am 30
I’m saying that anything entitled How to Seduce Women Into Bed is focused on the wrong motives.
Maybe it is a matter of the right motive for the right stage of life a person is in. You wrote earlier in this article that you dated 100s of women. After that you decided you wanted an LTR and are now skillfully in a good one.
Mike Stoute 33
EMK,
I’m not sure if I agree, you are promoting Adult Friend Finder, a site geared towards one-night stands, that is an affiliate link in there. So because your links are on the sidebar and not in articles it’s different? Writing articles promote better sales, fact..
You say your site is ONLY geared towards relationships, why would a site like that be there? Would you have them there if it didnt pay?
Answer:
Simply because we are all doing this for the money as well. Say what you want, we are all in it for affiliate comissions on the side.
Evan Marc Katz 34
When people come to my site, they don’t think of Adult Friendfinder. When they go to your website, they DO think of Ross Jeffries and other guys who see their roles as being master manipulators and seducers. You may not see a difference, but I do.
Evan
Mike Stoute 35
I think it’s unfair and drastically incorrect to say people think of Ross Jeffries when they come to my site..It’s news..we cover it.
“When people come to my site, they don’t think of Adult Friendfinder.”
Being that Adult Friend Finder is you 49th most popular outgoing link, I’m not feeling that argument either..
I don’t see much of a difference here.
Yes we are more edgy, but that does not mean we are much different.
Evan Marc Katz 36
49th? Guess we have different definitions of popular, too.
Mike Stoute 37
Well it’ more popular than what 90% of the other links in the sidebars..
btw, as far as I know:
Catch Him And Keep Him – Christian Carter (is actually David DeAngelo. a master maniplulator and so fourth..)
Mike Stoute 38
since all people on my site seem to be master manipulators to you…
Let me ask you this:
Do you feel that women are not master manipulators?
Evan Marc Katz 39
Actually, Mike, Christian Carter is not David DeAngelo. I know them both personally. Different guys. But David D did mentor and help create the Christian C material and marketing strategy. And if you ever read Christian’s material, it’s not about women manipulating men. Not at all. It’s about understanding men so that you can find a successful relationship.
Sorry, man, but don’t make an argument you can’t back up.
Mike Stoute 40
I wasn’t saying that book was about women manipulating men..
That was a seperate question..
I was mearly pointing out the fact that many men in this industry (like ourselves) got in through seduction. David DeAngelo is one of our favorites. We cover everyone.
It seems that you are generalizing us into a category which isnt correct, just because we bring our readers everything that’s out there.
And I would consider 49th, out of all the outgoing links on your site to be popular for Adult Friend Finder. I mean you are “America’s Leading Dating Expert”
Evan Marc Katz 41
Let’s agree to disagree, Mike. It’s Friday and the fiance and I are planning on a romantic evening watching “Scarface” in Hollywood. Please don’t kill my buzz with your sarcasm at my title.
Thanks for contributing to an important dialogue.
Best wishes,
Evan
Mike Stoute 42
Touch Ron Burgundy,
Enjoy your evening and give the fianc my best..
Steve 43
Evan Marc Katz Jun 20th 2008 at 11:00 am 39
And if you ever read Christian’s material, it’s not about women manipulating men. Not at all. It’s about understanding men so that you can find a successful relationship.
Adolescent language and a few scumbags aside, that is all the PUA community is about for many people. It isn’t about Ross Jeffries and his Jedi mind tricks. It is about helping men understand women so they can get dates and/or get sex ( which women also want ).
Mike Stoute 44
So right Steve..
Cathouse Teri 45
@ Lance ~ I also do not have any trouble with those who are choosing a lifestyle that involves casual sex. I think what’s good for the gander, is surely good for the goose. But I was never a player, defined in the manner I understand it to be. A player is someone who is playing at something. In other words, tending toward acting/pretending. I didn’t approach men with a line I learned in a book or from other “players” whom I thought to be getting all the men I wanted. I didn’t spend my time looking for hook-ups. I was just enjoying my life. Men approached me. I responded. Everyone knew the score right up front. So just because I have had many sexual encounters doesn’t mean I wooed them into my bed for the purpose of adding notches to my bedpost.
The fact is that we are in the midst of a cultural movement wherein the fuck-buddy is becoming extremely popular. My theory is that people are tired of putting forth the effort that a relationship requires and they just wanna have some fun. Get laid. No strings attached. This also goes along with my theory that people play the lottery because they want to become rich without putting in the work required to do so. We all want it to land right in our laps. I didn’t really give a shit, because I certainly was not looking for a relationship. I would have been happy to remain alone forever. I did my time and it was hard time.
Casual sexual encounters can be a ton of fun. But when people are going about devising plans and schemes that will accomplish this in wily ways, then I have a problem.
In truth, I’m for anything that anyone wants to do. As long as they can do it honestly, with emotional integrity. Anything that promotes unhealthy growth, especially where communication and relationships are concerned, is a cause I just can’t endorse.
(haha… as if anyone were asking for my endorsement.)
Steve 46
Mike Stoute Jun 20th 2008 at 11:30 am 44
So right Steve..
Mike, it isn’t my intent to offend you, but the look and feel of your site would not give me the impression of being one of the “lets just teach them social skills” sites.
Mike Stoute 47
No it wouldn’t, I agree…
In fact over the last few months we have been moving it towards the comedic side of dating with some spoof exaggerations. We don’t take ourselves to seriously and we like entertaining people. At the same time, our personal material is geared towards the community and being a better man with women.
More of a Modern Men’s Resource with an edge
Lance 48
@Cathouse: I’m of the “whatever floats your boat” line of thinking also, so it appears we’re in alignment on that.
You have an excellent quote here:
“I didn’t spend my time looking for hook-ups. I was just enjoying my life. Men approached me. I responded. Everyone knew the score right up front. So just because I have had many sexual encounters doesn’t mean I wooed them into my bed for the purpose of adding notches to my bedpost.”
That actually describes me very accurately and it’s also why in serious conversation I’ll refer to myself as a “social artist,” because I like socializing. Only in jest will I refer to myself as a player.
A-L 49
If you look at my previous post (#14) you’ll see that I was all for supporting the OP’s boyfriend and his profession. But Mike, if you truly are the (ex-)boyfriend in question, your website leaves a lot to be desired.
The address (theseductionbible.com) is off-putting, and here are the big headlines:
Kourtney and Kim Kardashian Bikini Pictures
“Secret Diary of a Call Girl” is my new favorite show
Jamie-Lynn Spears Count Down to Legal MILFness
Kate Moss, Lara Stone, and Daria Werbowy Topless and in the Nude in W Magazine
Though there was content in there that could be considered as supporting Jen’s boyfriend’s goal of researching how “men attract women and how they market themselves on the dating scene,” the website makes me thinks it’s leading up to sex, not a relationship. And that, I have more qualms about. Yes, teach a guy how to meet a girl and get her to go out with him and be interested in him. I have zero problems with that. Making it all about the sex, and obsessing about sexual celebrities, is rather repulsive.
Mike Stoute 50
I am one of many authors on TSB, more so I am the tech Guy and business with more live interaction. Look at the authors on the tops of posts, plus the celeb stuff is a gossip angle we cover like many other sites, whatever.. Seduction is a bad name, so maybe we choose the wrong name 4 years ago, for SEO, I will not change it.
Point:
If this is the Jenn I was dating and she can’t take some racy pics, guy stuff and pickup material; understand it is a business and no different than most sites geared towards men. Then I feel the issue is with her and her confidence in us.
I am a real person and I say it how it is, I guess I need a stronger woman.
Cathouse Teri 51
@Lance ~ Yes, I think the term “social artist” does seem to be a more honest label.
Selena 52
Lance,
I also agree “social artist” does seem a more apt description for you. Though in the circles I travel, this is simply called being friendly, outgoing, personable. You appear comfortable in your own skin and that is what is highly attractive.
Mike Stoute,
The content of TSB made me think “Hey! Cosmo for young men.” Even included an article on how men should dress for Spring. Imagine that.
I don’t know as you need a *stronger* woman, but surely you need one who doesn’t mind what you do. Also one who is not put off by your seemingly tenacious argumentative nature. It’s all about compatibility Mike.
starthrower68 53
Oh, vexation, thy name is love!
Jen, you will not be able to change him, curb his flirtatious ways or anything such as that. If you choose to continue on in this relationship you must do so with your eyes wide open, and you must accept him as he is, flirtatiousness and all. That means no complaining when he engages in the behavior that bothers you.
On the flip side, your other option is to walk away and hold out for a relationship in which there won’t be that constant anxiety, insecurity, confusion, doubt, et al. I don’t mean to sound as though I lack compassion for your situation. I just believe that this is the bottom line and you have to choose which is the path for you. Hugs!
Steve 54
A-L about post #49
I couldn’t agree more. The way the various PUA authors market themselves is patently stupid. I agree with Evan that most of their customers are just shy guys who are grown ups looking for some help. The information they have is solid, sellable, and non-objectionable.
The PUAs [b]make[/b] themselves and their information appear noxious and predatory to outsiders.
If they ran presented their information in an ordinary, down to earth, and adult manner nobody would have a problem with it. It probably would also sell a lot better as they wouldn’t turn sales away from people who are curious, but turned off by the adolescent, sleazy, and/or irritating marketing/packaging.
Bev 55
You know, Jen, I don’t care how many books Evan has written. He’s a GUY! A wonderful one but…..Listen to me, a woman. Dump the dude!!! You have only heartache in your future if you don’t.
Cathouse Teri 56
Good point, Bev.
I wanted to discuss this interesting comment thread with my roommate who is savvy about men, but in sort of a different way than I am. I wanted a different perspective and she evaluates situations a little more quickly than I do. And I don’t believe I’ve ever seen her be wrong. Certainly never entirely wrong.
I started out with,
“So this gal wants some advice. She says her boyfriend is a Pick Up Artist…” She immediately interrupted me with laughter. She said, “That is not called a boyfriend.”
I guess that was enough information for her to put in her two cents. Just wanted to toss in another woman’s opinion.
Brian 57
I think all this talk about PUAs is a smoke screen. This is a simple question of incompatibility. In this context, the real issue is that she is very uncomfortable about her boyfriend’s choice of activities and her boyfriend is committed to those same activities.
She seems to disrespect what he is doing, has moral qualms about it, and feels their relationship is threatened. While a heart-to-heart talk might help, They both are strongly committed to their present stances.
Unless at least one of them is willing to give up feelings/morals/activities that are important to them, I don’t believe this situation can be satisfying for both on a long-term basis.
evilwoobie 58
It’s just the image that goes on inside a women’s mind when her boyfriend tells her about flirting with other women, if a girl can ignore that image, she will be fine. Thanks lance for pointing me to this post, it’s a wonderful read!
I love TSB. It’s for men who want to develop themselves better. Normal development means groping your way in social circles and finding out by trial and error what works and what doesn’t. I’ve been reading TSB for a time now and I know that their work focuses on being like an ‘older bro’ to these guys who want to improve their relationship with women, whether for serious or for fun. There are some racy stories and photos, but then so do Playboy and Penthouse. Those dont devalue the site (TSB) and in fact adds to its value… it is, after all, a man’s resource.
Cathouse Teri 59
It does seem to me that if a man wants to know how to attract a woman, he should ask a woman. But what do I know, eh?
I always do my best to encourage men to feel confident about approaching women. This is why, during the times I am single, I always say yes when asked out, or when asked to dance, etc. I’ve never understood why a woman would say no to these things. It’s not like he’s asking you to marry him! Men seem to have to overcome the huge hurdle of rejection and I figure if he’s gotten up the nerve to ask, the least I can do is say yes!
I say, if you like a woman, ask her out. It ain’t fuckin rocket science!
Scot McKay 60
I’m a professional dating coach and met my wife right as I was getting started.
I immerse myself in social dynamics, understanding women, online dating strategy, etc. on a daily basis. And I couldn’t agree more that there is nothing inherently wrong with having a vision for helping guys improve their skills with women.
At issue, however, is the fact that numerous Seduction Community figures tend to tailor their philosophy (and indeed their marketing message) to the particular audience at any given moment rather than picking a course and sticking to it.
When this happens, you can’t help but understand why women in their lives would wonder what the hell is REALLY going on in their guys’ heads.
Telling one socially conservative group that you’re a “self-help professional” who is all-about “improving guys’ lives and healthy relationships” is one thing.
But you can’t be posting articles about one-night-stands, “lay reports”, and “you molested me” openers back at the main web site and expect anyone to be able to know where they REALLY stand with you.
Or, I guess you could say, “getting the lay” is not a “family value”. LOL
If you want to teach guys how to get better with women, that’s a noble goal. As a job, it also beats either working in a coal mine or making some company richer.
You’ve got to chose a path, and have the character to sleep in the bed you’ve made (literally). Whatever that means, so be it…but be PROUD OF IT, whatever that path is.
And if you want to keep dating multiple women and sharing your skills for doing so, that’s cool. So be it. That makes it easy.
But if you, as a man with options and sound mind, choose to enter into a monogamous LTR, you simply choose your partner wisely.
And make no mistake, you can still teach the sum total of your experiences…including how to approach, create rapport and seduce.
As for being in this business and making my vision for “success with women” a personal reality, my solution was very simple: I did not settle for less than a woman who shared my passion for what I was doing.
She was excited about my passion to help guys succeed with women, and has since become a popular and VERY effective dating consultant to women in her own right.
Granted, I’m not particularly known for promoting pure pick-up “openers” or “techniques”, and I tend to draw an audience who prioritizes long-term quality and relationship management over the “quick lay”.
This no doubt makes it easier on Emily and I as far as the relationship goes, and is congruent with our public persona.
Unfortunately, I know several guys who teach hardcore “pickup” who are actually married and go out of their way to keep that under wraps.
Bummer.
You’ve just got to have a PLAN. As a man, women respond to your leadership of the relationship, either consciously or unconsciously. You’re ambition for your professional and personal lives have to match up. Further a woman has to be able to feel secure in the fact that your ambition and her role in it match up.
Mike Stoute 61
Hey Wobbie,
Always nice to hear from you
I actually couldn’t have said it better myself. We are like older brothers to these guys showing them the ropes of what we learned and know.
Men and women are very different and a lot of women don’t understand how most men really think and act when they are just among men.
No matter how great and sweet a guy is to the love of his life, there may be a time when he is just with his guy friends where he acts and says certain things she wouldn’t believe. It’s not that he doesn’t love her and cherish her, it’s more like this secret code that men use to bond and feel manly. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus the title says it all..
Lance, thanks for inviting our friend Wobbie
evilwoobie 62
@Mike
Always a pleasure! Your stories, including the racy articles keep people coming back. You know your audience and you keep em. It’s like being in a mall and you’re the one sitting in the plastic chairs sipping soda, having fun talking with your multitude of friends while lecturing on something, and not the guy with the microphone talking to no one and everyone hoping that someone’s listening and willing to buy a product.
On topic:
Everyone should have that person to guide them through a difficult thing. The girlfriend should consider her BF’s work noble if he works to teach dating to men who would otherwise have gone down the drain called inferiority complex had he not had tutelage. Having issues with your BF being a PUA or a mentor of men could be a self-doubt issue and not exactly the guy’s fault. That he met dozens of women and yet still chose to fall in love with you means you’re the best right? Keep that thought alive whenever he goes out to do what he does best.
About sex. it’s just sex til you make an issue of it (you get attached or one gets too attached), and when that happens, it becomes a big thing. Dating could sometimes mean one-night-stands and/or quickies that don’t mean anything. Preaching about relationships without acknowledging the possibility that both parties could just be after the quick fix and nothing more is more emotionally damaging to a learner than starting the tutelage with that possibility, and THEN preaching about what happens when that flame becomes the heat that warms them for a lifetime.
Steve 63
Brian, post 57.
I don’t think the PUA thing is a smoke screen, but I would agree that it is not the main topic, which is Jenn’s feeling of discomfort.
Scumbags and ignorant marketing aside I don’t think there is anything wrong with PUAs or their teachings.
Jenn’s boyfriend may be 100% trustworthy, but I think it is pretty straight forward that most people would feel discomfort by having a relationship partner practicing eliciting the sexual/romantic interests of others. Whether the partner is a PUA, the female equivalent, or a boy/girlfriend who simply flirts too much. Some rare individuals can handle that and more power to them. For the rest of us mortal human beings it is reasonable to expect discomfort.
IMHO Jenn should move on and her boyfriend should accept it without taking it personally as it isn’t about him, it is about his situation.
hunter 64
post #59
..I have heard women say that some men are real snakes, you give these men an inch and they will take a mile…
Cute Redhead 65
Jen, my concerns about the PUA boyfriend are 1) he’s calling picking up women a career (most careers I know of lead to financial solvency) and 2) let’s say it is a “career,” what kind of future is he building here? I mean, is this the kind of job he’s going to be doing at 60? This is his life’s aspiration, to continue for all his days to be able to get a phone number from some chick in the supermarket?
Mike Stoute 66
btw, everyone..
I am pretty sure this is not my Jenn, crazy coincidence though, plus I am in no way a PUA or self help guru..
Steve 67
Mike Stoute Jun 21st 2008 at 05:14 pm 66
btw, everyone..
I am pretty sure this is not my Jenn, crazy coincidence though, plus I am in no way a PUA or self help guru..
Well, that is confusing. First you thought you were the boyfriend in Jenn’s letter to Evan because the situation fit yours. Jenn’s boyfriend is an aspiring PUA who wanted to continue dating her while practicing charming women into giving him their phone numbers.
Then you had an exchange with Evan in the comments above about your PUA site.
Now you are claiming not to be a PUA at all?
Eda 68
I find this discussion about PUA’s very interesting. And I have lots of thoughts. First of all, I’d challenge the assumption that seeking a long term relationship is somehow a loftier, more noble and better goal than just seeking to have sex. Why is one goal better than the other? They don’t have to be — they are just different. Sometimes you want a relationship and sometimes you just want sex.
From what I can gather, it seems that people don’t like PUA’s because their process seems to be manipulative. I will confess that I don’t know a whole lot about PUA’s and what they do and how they do it, but in the quest for a long term “relationship,” I know that a whole bunch of experts tell us to devise strategies for what works and what doesn’t work all of which could be described as manipulative if we want to be brutally honest with ourselves. So, when someone says, fudge on your age in order to fall within the search parameters of more people, but list your true age in your profile, that’s being manipulative. Or, when women are told on a first date, offer to pay — even if you don’t really want to, in order to increase your chances of having a second date, that’s being manipulative. Or when people are told to suppress parts of their true character in order to get a second date, I think that’s being manipulative too. Now one might say that those tactics aren’t such big deals or all that bad. Maybe not, but the point is that when you don’t tell the truth (or hide it) to get someone to do something that you want, that’s manipulation.
Someone mentioned that they didn’t like the idea that PUA’s use women as specimens to gather information and test theories. Well, the fact is, the whole process of dating with the goal of a long term relationship is to collect information and to understand what works and what doesn’t — just the way a PUA does. The difference could be that many people seeking a long term relationship don’t go on a date expressly for practice, but you know what? Some people do. So, to me the real issue is that many people just don’t like that it appears the primary goal of PUA’s is to have sex. I actually think that woman are less sympathetic to this goal because the fact is that for most women who are half way attractive, with a half way decent personality, getting sex is simply not a problem/not difficult for us. What is more difficult for some of us is getting a boyfriend and relationship. But for some men, getting sex isn’t very easy at all. In the past, I’ve never had much understanding or sympathy for what a man’s sex drive really means and how it feels. For me, sex was like icing on the cake….a pleasant extra, but not critical. I think for many men, sex IS the CAKE. I really didn’t understand how intense a sex drive can be until I turned 40 — and didn’t have a boyfriend. TMI here, but as the proportion of testosterone increased in my body, I was walking around highly aroused all the time. I pretty much thought about sex all the time, and I pretty much thought about having sex with every attractive man I saw. And, I think the intensity of my drive was just a fraction of what some men might feel. So, now, I’m much more understanding of what some men go through.
Although it’s so much easier to say than do, we would all be better if we could overcome our fears and be honest. In seeking our goals — whether it’s a long term relationship or sex, if we could just show us as who we and ask for what we really want, the the people who don’t like us and don’t want to give us what we want, can move on, but the people that do like us and do want to give us what we want, can stay! How beautiful would that be?
Mike Stoute 69
Eda, Awesome post.. You rock!
@Steve i am just a popular guy in the niche, the term pua is thrown around loosely for anyone in the community these days. I am just a guy who likes sharing experiences and blogging!
Rachel 70
Evan, I think you missed saying something crucial to her question, (although you likely covered it in other topics) so let me just say this:
NO, YOU CANNOT “CURB” A GUY’S FLIRTATIOUS WAYS and make this relationship what you want it to be. Period. He will not change just because you want him to. Millions of women over the eons have already entertained a similar fantasy. It generally ends up in anger and frustration for both genders.
Hopefully you have some male friends to ask — for a reality check. I got some of my best relationship and dating advice from them — especially from the players. The overwhelming advice was this: “No you can’t change us; and why would you think that anyway? Oh right, you’re special. We forgot.”
Besides that, here are some other big red flags:
1. He hasn’t graduated yet from school, so he’s likely to be in his early twenties, right? This isn’t an age in which guys like to settle down; so even if he isn’t “using” the phone numbers he gets in his “field work,” he’s likely to put them on the back burner.
2. Where does the field work end? Just in getting the phone number? Of course not. If some hapless guy needs your boyfriend’s help getting phone #s, then certainly there are more steps that will need to be covered: how to get that first kiss and that second date; how to get a girl in bed; how to play the odds and juggle multiple women, etc. etc.
3. Obviously you’re not comfortable with this venture, but he keeps asking. Persistent little bugger. Sounds like he has a tendency to sweet talk or wheedle you into agreeing with him. Tell the guy you’d like to do your own PUA research from a female perspective, and see what he has to say.
Call me jaded, but I just don’t believe the guy.
hunter 71
to Eda,
on post #68, “but for some men getting sex isn’t very easy at all.”
I think a more accurate statement is, “For most men, getting sex isn’t very easy, at all.” LOL!
No man on earth will get married if sex comes easy for him!…….
Interestingly, on the same note, at a singles seminar, a female therapist, yells at the mostly female audience, “C’mon ladies, men make more love to themselves, than they do to us”….
Cathouse Teri 72
Hunter, that doesn’t make any sense. Don’t you know that when you get married the sex stops?
hunter 73
to cathouse,
Ha, ha, ha!…How funny!….I am sorry it went sexless….
Cute Redhead 74
So what I read here is that guys are only out to get sex, guys only get married to have a ready supply of sex available to them, and all these PUA techniques are about getting sex. All this talk just reinforces the stereotype that men are dogs, have no feelings, and are relationship clods. Just for the record. So if all of you who support this view have a hard time finding a relationship when you’re ready to settle down b/c no woman wants to deal with your baggage — stop and think a minute about how you have presented yourself and what your past treatment of women says about you.
On that score, who says we’re all out there lying to manipulate someone into a relationship? I don’t lie or misrepresent myself, and I am vetting the guys I’m going out with now, paying strict attention to the level of honesty each guy demonstrates. And I’m not having sex with any of them. It’s very social and very fun and I genuinely like these guys I’m dating.
And personally I don’t care if guys are out there hooking up and “making love to themselves” — I mean, if that isn’t what I want and that is what they want, surely we will not be compatible. But pretty much when a person, man or woman, wants a relationship they cut out the PUA/hook up activity. Because everyone knows that casual sexual liaisons are not the stuff of a lasting relationship and you can’t manipulate someone into a good relationship with you.
Picking up is not the same thing as going the distance. Usually very soon after the pickup there is the drop and bolt.
hunter 75
to Cute Redhead,
on post #71, and according to her the only reason men marry, is because, if we don’t, someone else will!…….LOL!..
hunter 76
on post #74,
..Maybe most men are dogs,…..most dogs can be trained….so I am told….
The Reverend Terence Fformby-Smythe 77
Women just love guys who come on to them, get their numbers and never call. Oh yeah. Great research project if you don’t care who you might hurt.
So what? It is better than being a virgin, that is for sure!
Cathouse Teri 78
Hunter ~ You silly goose. I wasn’t talking about ME! Marriage is not for me. And I certainly never have a sexless life.
But perhaps you haven’t been around enough to hear married men lament over the lack of sex in their lives?
I am quite positive that sex is not the reason men get married.
Selena 79
Re: #77
“Women just love guys who come on to them, get their numbers and never call. Oh yeah. Great research project if you don’t care who you might hurt.”
“So what? It is better than being a virgin, that is for sure!”
How is it better? Guys who get numbers, but never call are the ones most likely to REMAIN virgins. God, how dumb.
vino 80
#78 –
The lament by married guys is that they had tons of great sex (with their now-wife) before marriage, but then it dries up soon after nuptials.
To paraphrase, they are complaining of a bait-and-switch.
Cathouse Teri 81
Of course they are complaining about the bait-and-switch. And rightly so. Many reasons why it happens. Zero reasons why it should be tolerated.
hunter 82
#80
How true, men hope women won’t change their way of being, women are out to make changes in a mans’ life..
cinnamon 83
re# 80-82
While some men apparently perceive declining passion as bait-and-switch, I believe this interpretation has something to do with lack of knowledge about relationship dynamics.
In the good old times, the honeymoon used to take place after nuptials…
Cathouse Teri 84
So, cinnamon, your argument is that if sex were to be patiently anticipated and experienced after the wedding there wouldn’t be this problem with sexless marriages?
That there wouldn’t be this great pre-wedded passion to compare it to, so no troubling lack perceived?
I’d like to see you back up that argument.
vino 85
Aren’t we off-topic?
And cinn, how would I do a sitcom about pua? Know nothing of it/them…
JB 86
Way off topic………
DON’T STAY WITH YOUR BOYFRIEND IF HE’S A PICK-UP ARTIST
See how simple that answer is ? Next question.
cinnamon 87
# 84
You misread my message.
By referring to the honeymoon, I wanted to say that the initial stages of a sexual relationship are typically the most passionate ones. Marriage or not.
In times where marriage marked the start of a sexual relationship, it was the period just after marriage that was apparently perceived as the sweetest one, thus honeymoon.
Wiki refers to the Merriam-Webster dictionary which reports the etymology of the expression as coming from “the idea that the first month of marriage is the sweetest” (sorry, Wiki is not a scientific resource, but quick).
People who are successful in their relationships tend to say that it requires some work to keep it alive. Infatuation just happens out of the blue and so it wanes.
vino,
I’ve done some reading since the topic started, and I just think there is plenty of comic material in it
Rachel 88
To Cinnamon:
Way off topic, but I couldn’t help responding to your “honeymoon” reference. According to the history of mead (honey wine), the term “honeymoon” supposedly comes from the ancient tradition of plying the newlyweds with mead for an entire month (moon), while they try to conceive a child.
Back on topic: I vote for dumping the dude. People can argue about whether it’s ethical for the guy to be a PUA in a relationship — and maybe so — but the girl clearly doesn’t want him to do that. So the relationship (if one can even call it that) is doomed. Why prolong it?
Cute Redhead 89
Yeah, dump him. It’s hard to imagine him sticking around very long anyway, out there as he is, presenting himself as available and collecting numbers of presumably available women. And if he does stick around it’s hard to imagine him being faithful. Sounds like an icky drama in the making. Too many red flags. When someone wants to be in a relationship s/he goes the distance to make the partner feel secure and avoids even the appearance of impropriety. And Jen clearly has bad feelings about it or she wouldn’t be asking. At the least this dude is highly insensitive to her feelings. Maybe she just needs some support to give him the boot. Or maybe she needs to start her own PUA “business,” collect a bunch of numbers, and find a new guy — all in the name of researching the many ways to leave your lover. (I do have to add that I found the part about her boyfriend wanting a career in “relationship counseling” pretty amusing. I think he would benefit from her research on how to leave a relationship.)
hunter 90
to Cute Redhead #89
…Are there really many ways to leave your lover?…..It used to be 50 ways to leave your lover. Just slip out the back jack, make a new plan stan, don’t need a decoy Roy, just listen to me….
Ramon Thomas 91
I really would not waste my time asking permission from my girlfriend about my career choice. In fact the last two women I seriously dated over the last 18 months both knew I am a part-time dating coach in South Africa. And what I did differently was to teach them everything I know about dating and relationships. And they are both better off because I never used to b.s. them. My own choice now is to be in a permanent open relationship until further notice.
Tony 92
I am dating myself to say this, but I remember the sexual revolution. I will tell those of you too young to know that it was great and I miss it dearly.
Casual sex is hard to come by in these abstemious times.
Open relationships, non-monogamy, swinging, and one-night stands are little more than fond memories for those of us who spent our youths living in the 70′s.
For my generation, sexual liberation was part of the cultural and political zeitgeist. Today, sex is under wraps like no time since Ozzie and Harriet. Although times have changed (for the worse, if you ask me), the sexual needs of men remain the same as ever.
What’s a horny young male to do? Enter the pickup artist (PUA).
PUAs are a response to a sexually conservatized culture: abstinence is being taught in public schools; religious fundamentalism runs rampant across the land; people live in fear of sexually transmitted diseases. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Some say that PUAs attract women only to use them for sex then move on to the next conquest. Perhaps. But I think back to the casual encounters I had in my youth and I recall that the women were just as eager for those experiences me. The PUA is skilled at providing women with an experience they want but won’t pursue on their own because the culture will label them sluts or whores. They can blame the sexual indiscretion on the PUA.
For the sake of both men and women, long live the PUA. It would be better to have a sexual revolution, but in this day and age, they’re all that stand between us and a return to an Ozzie and Harriet world of celibacy and puritanism.
Jabber 93
Perspective
PUA methods work. I guess in the end what are you after?
1. A beautiful woman to have sex with you.
This is great for a while however the methods do not make this woman truely love you she just loves who you become through
science a PUA. If you ever want to be truely yourself she will more than likely leave or you will have to never be yourself.
If she leaves you….you are on another quest for sex or a empty relationship. IF you do keep a relationship how long can you
wear the mask of a pickup artist? without being your true self
2. Power having many women adore you…..for something science gave you. There is always another PUA that nows
more science. Power sometimes can also go to your head
some people abuse it. Jealousy between women can occur
broken friendships can take place between women or the PUA and women. Having to much power and a monsterous ego can stir up anger with both sexes.
3. confidence can be used in a good way and a bad way. Having convidence to talk to women while being yourself is a real good thing. Having confidence to talk women using science to get your way is very dangerous. (To ever having a decent relationship.)
The interesting thing is beautiful women emotions run wild with a man who uses science, a PUA, however she forgets that what she really wants is what her heart wants. The PUA not even being himself because he is using science thinks he is getting his hearts desire but is not because he is masked in science and sees only emotion from the woman.
Both people are after the same thing that is more beautiful than science or physical appearance that is “LOVE”
(take off the mask and don’t let emotions get in the way)
(search for something deeper)
from a former PUA
Kali 94
@ Steve
You say Strauss never lied. Did you even READ that book? One of the most recurrent lines in the book was (whenever he started chatting up a girl):
“It’s not lying, it’s flirting”
What a bullsh*t excuse. No matter what, it’s still lying.
starthrower68 95
I like JB’s #86. If the OP can handle it stay; if not, go. The devil’s always in the details.
Jessica 96
I can’t stand that book “The Game”. I can’t stand it mostly because my boyfriend of three years just broke up with me. We have had a horrible abusive relationship for three years and all he cares about it paying six hundred bucks to go to workshops to learn how to pickup women. I”m sorry to say this to you guys out there, but thats just not how you get the good girls you want. If you want to be single and get a quick fuck from some slutty hussy down the block then follow into this humiliating disrespectful cult. The thing that you don’t realize is that when guys act with this behavior it doesn’t leave any opportunities for the good decent girls to get into your heart. I’ve been a bartender for 4 years, I’ve had every pick-up line there is in the book and it just makes me so upset! Those negs, backhanded compliments all designed to lower a girl’s self-esteem and think she isn’t worth what she really is. Maybe guys that need to put time and effort into that shit should go to workshops designed for improving your relationship. Needless to say the bastard wanted me back when he couldn’t find a girl half the woman I am and I laughed at him. I”m not a man hater, I love boys, but i just wish we could have more down to earth, fun, loving guys who don’t need that bullshit to feel “cool” or “respected”. Dudes, don’t waste your time. Treat your girls with respect. Make a woman happy and she will do everything to make you happy too!!! yeeesh don’t men have mother’s anymore!?
hunter 97
Jessica, too bad about your boyfriend. You say he spent $600? hhhmmhh.
JB 98
Jessica might find it hard to believe and I know I’m in the minority amongst most men but I study ALL aspects of “The Game” from the “Pick Up Arts” to every and anything written about relationships healthy & unhealthy. It doesn’t matter to me whether it’s Mystery,Evan,DeAngelo/Christian Carter or Dr. Phil and anyone else who’s divorced 3 times and has written 3 books on healthy relationships.
I enjoy learning and believe none of them is 100% right but all have some great points of view and knowledge sometimes. I take it all in and apply what I want in my life. There’s nothing wrong with learning & listening to all of it including the PUA’s.
Karl R 99
Let me begin this by stating that I have no interest in “The Game”. It’s my impression that it contains some useful information, but it’s primarily useful for men who are looking for a short-term sexual relationship, which is not my goal.
Jessica said: (#97)
“I can’t stand that book ‘The Game’.”
“my boyfriend of three years just broke up with me.”
“We have had a horrible abusive relationship for three years”
“thats just not how you get the good girls you want.”
“Treat your girls with respect. Make a woman happy and she will do everything to make you happy too!!!”
You just did a remarkable job of persuading me that you don’t know what you’re talking about. According to you:
1) Your boyfriend was horrible and abusive to you for 3 years.
2) You did not leave your boyfriend. He broke up with you.
3) You (presumably) consider yourself to be a “good girl”.
4) Treating a woman with respect is a more successful method of getting and keeping a “good girl”.
Your boyfriend managed to get you and keep you for 3 years without treating you with respect. The relationship ended when he decided that he no longer wanted to be with you.
You might want to consider why this was possible.
“i just wish we could have more down to earth, fun, loving guys who don’t need that bullshit”
Then date those men, and dump the ones who disrescpect you and abuse you after the first or second date. And if every woman does the same thing, then “The Game” will become a completely useless piece of trash.
I agree with Evan that a nice guy with self-confidence can do as well as (or better than) a jerk. But if you really want to persuade men that it’s against their interest to be a jerk, you might want to start dating the nice guys (regardless of their self-confidence) in preference to the jerks.
hunter 100
Women won’t date the nice guys, they are boring.
Sayanta 101
“yeeesh don’t men have mother’s anymore?”
Sadly, no- at least emotionally available ones. A lot of men in the current American culture grew up with single mothers who were working ten-twelve hours day and barely had enough energy to cook dinner after coming home, let alone emotionally connect with their children.
Melissa Dawn 102
Okay , either you trust him or you don’t. If ya don’t..then leave.
No one wants to go out with someone who doesn’t trust them because even if they aren’t doing anything…. being accused of things every night or every other night isn’t fun and it’s just going to aggravate him to a point where he will break up with you.
I used to work a lot, since my ex didn’t want to work at all. I’d come home after 11 hours and be accused of cheating when any one of the other employees and the cameras could vouch for me. To make a long story short, going through that friggin crap everyday was irritating and stressful. After a while I broke up with him and said don’t bother me any more.
That’s just an example from my life. I am a woman and I didn’t want to be with a man accusing me of things all the time. If you trust him then you gotta mean it and actually trust him. If you have doubt then you shouldn’t be together.
hunter 103
Melissa, sounds like your boyfriend wanted out of the relationship.
Joe 104
Naw, hunter, that would mean he’d have to find a job, or find himself another sugar mama!
hunter 105
Say, Joe….I understand what you are saying. Men have to give women a hard time, or else they get bored, and find someone else…..
chick 106
Okay Jen…
you posted this message a year ago pretty much… are you still with the guy now? Either way I’m quite curious to hear about it?
I’m in a somewhat similar predicament. i have been dating a ‘nice’ guy for around 8 months. He is always perfect when we are together and always there when i need him. I have no doubt in my mind that he cares (he says love but I’m not sure he really understands love so, i think that he believes he loves me at least). He is a PUA.
I think its also worth mentioning that we didn’t meet in the general PUA situation and generally the relationship lays with very equal stature. I like my independence more than most women so i make sure that the effort and spending is relatively the same for each of us. We ‘date’ in the sense that we stay around each others place 2-3 times per week and make sure that includes some time to watch a film, go out for dinner or basically spend some quality time. So yea, things are great
The difference is that i was told from about one month in and that although at that point he hadn’t started, he has now actually started working and earning money from being a PUA. I am very open minded so from the moment I knew, I set the ground rules of
ditch the number after getting it (never give contact thereafter)
anything more than a kiss and I’m gone.
As in a previous comment… i have been his ‘wing girl’ and we did have some fun. Obviously seeing him chat to other women this way and knowing that he kisses them etc bugs me, but at the end of the day, seeing him do it was that little bit more comforting in the fact that as much as he could follow these leads, he doesn’t.
It all comes down to trust. If everything is good and your the one he comes home to, what’s the problem?… your just going to have a ton of women wishing they were you. Take comfort in the fact that the ‘type’ of girl he wants is not the easily manipulated one in the bar, club or high street, but the one that he knows, cares about and wants to be with… thats you.
90% of PUA’s are insecure men with a big front of a growing ego… thats what PUA tells them to be so they can pick up these girls (they need the confidence to do it!). If he has opened up and gone beyond that for you, then there is something there. a PUA wont go further and allow a girl to see an insecurity unless theres a relationship. This is because it shows weakness… one thing with the PUA method is weakness is frowned upon-you have to be the best, richest, most social, healthiest man in the house. So think about what you have with this guy and how he is with you. Do you trust him now?
LC 107
I find it really sad that men play all of these horrible games. I’ve been dating for 18 years, and I’m so tired and bored of the insincerity on the dating scene. It’s getting so old. Our hearts and bodies are not toys for men to use and discard. We are human beings with feelings and the need to be loved. This girl should dump this PUA guy. He’s unable to love a girl and only sees them as sporting trophies. Unfortunately, there are just so few men out there with anything to offer in terms of character, honor, loyalty, friendship, and love. I keep my fingers crossed that someday I might finally meet a man with good character and the ability to sincerely love a woman.