Is Race Just A “State Of Mind” In Online Dating?
During the 2008 US Census, most Americans said they approved of racial or ethnic intermarriage. At least six of every 10 people checked “it would be fine.” But data gathered from online dating sites illustrates a different story between what people believe and how they behave.
“According to a new UC Berkeley study of one million online daters, cyberspace is just as segregated as the real world. When it comes to dating online, whites prefer whites, research reveals. More than 80 percent of whites — even the 48 percent of males and 28 percent of females who said they were indifferent to race — sent messages to whites and just three percent contacted blacks.”
Read the article here, and please share your comments below.
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57 Comments »Filed Under Online Dating
Sarah 1
When I read “whites prefer whites” I mentally added “or Asians” (white men –> Asian women). I can’t tell you how many white men’s profiles I’ve seen listing a preference for Asian women!
And I like them… if only I could be attracted too!
As a white woman I’ve gotten a lot of attention from black men. Honestly? I hate to say this, but I’ll be honest. I prefer lighter skin, the same way so many men prefer lighter hair (blondes). ONLY when it comes to dating. I have NO PROBLEM being friends and colleagues with black men (or women); I simply prefer certain physical characteristics just like most people do. Some people like slim or tall; I like fair.
It’s not so much about race, frankly. I could be attracted to a lighter-skinned man who isn’t white. Or less attracted to a very tan white guy.
At times I’ve wished I didn’t have this preference since it would open up so many more dating options! Black men really do like me!
Jadafisk 2
Well, when they say they’re fine with it, they may mean – and the study confirms this - that they’re fine with *other people* doing it. It doesn’t mean that they think that race shouldn’t be a consideration for themselves, and there’s nothing inconsistent about that, really. Social disapproval is but one of the many reasons why it doesn’t happen a lot. Intersecting class stratifications, residential segregation, socialization (mores as well as cultivation of attraction to certain sets of physical and personal qualities), correlations between political and religious beliefs, all of these play a part. Also, studies have shown that there are differing levels of comfort re: different types of interracial pairings… it’s not uncommon for someone to be totally fine with the idea of say, blacks and Latinos dating or whites and Asians, but less approving of, say, blacks and whites or Asians and Latinos. There can also be differences in approval based on the gender of the people involved. If people feel fine about most IR pairings, they may “round up” and say they approve.
The InBetweener 3
I think race is important only to those who MAKE IT important. I happen to be of a mixed race (American Indian/Puerto-Rican/African American) and I’ve dated people of other races also. Like the article states, sometimes it’s the parents that might forbid/look down or shun inter-racial dating/marriages – that could effect a persons opportunities when it comes to “finding the one on-line” or in face to face situations.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was personally in a two (2) year relationship with someone of a different race and they felt they would be “disowned” had their father found out they were dating/seeing someone that was african-american (mixed or not). The eye opener was had they been dating any other race, it would have been fine. As far as I’m concerned NONE of my family members could EVER fix their mouths to convince me on who to date – ESPECIALLY as an adult.
Unfortunately, a lot of people misconstrue “race” for “culture” when I see them as two (2) TOTALLY different factors when it comes to dating.
There might be culture differences within different races but the article rarely touched on culture difference vs. race.
With online dating, it seems as if it’s a preference to date outside your race, you ALMOST always have to sign up with a site dedicated to inter-racial dating. Otherwise, nine (9) times out of ten (10), humans will “go with what they know” so to speak.
Sayanta 4
I know a lot of people are going to think I’m hypersensitive (I’m anticipating a comment from Karl LOL), and I realize it isn’t “logical” but when I see a man that’s marked certain races in his preference list, I just click to the next profile. Even if he’s included my race in it- a lot of time the men (who seem very liberal and cultured otherwise) write ‘everything but black’ basically in their profile. Even though I’m not black, I just find this cruel. So- I basically just contact or reply to men who’ve written no preference.
It’s funny- I notice on Match that there are a lot of ‘no preference’ men- but Chemistry is very ‘stay within my race.’ Of course, this doesn’t mean the Match men would actually date anyone outside of their race- hell, maybe they just don’t want to seem racist in their profile.
This isn’t limited to men of course. I actually have white girfriends who’ll say to me, of all people, that they hate it when men of color ask them out or show interest. Of course, you all are probably asking why I’m friends with women like this. Good question- I’m wondering the same thing…
Sayanta 5
By the way- I don’t have any particular racial preference when it comes to dating (otherwise the above would make me a hypocrite LOL), but I’m curious…
I notice white men are very willing to date Asian women (meaning EAST Asian, not women from India or Sri Lanka), but not women of other races. Why is this? I’m very curious, considering Asian cultures are similar to South Asian, African, and Latin cultures with the emphasis on family, tradition, etc. A friend once said it’s purely based on skin tone and nothing else.
Another friend suggested something too X-rated for me to write on here…
SS 6
Funny, I often got e-mails from white men who listed every race but African-American/black in their profiles.
While I didn’t feel a need to respond to every man who contacted me, I would specifically ask these men why they wrote me when they stated in their profile that they were interested in every race of woman BUT black, and yet, they wrote me, a black woman.
Usually I got no response back. Which was fine — I didn’t expect one and likely wouldn’t want to pursue communication if they had, but I thought I should call them out on it.
I think what happens is that whites have a perception of what a black woman, an Asian woman, a Hispanic woman, etc., is supposed to look like, act like, etc., and based on those perceptions, include races or exclude races accordingly.
But since we’ve also established that a lot of men simply don’t read profiles and look at pictures, if they happen to see a picture of a woman who they find attractive, but happens to be from the “undesired race,” they’ll write anyway — likely forgetting that their profile, clear as day, is glaring in the fact that it shows that this man is not interested in women of that particular race.
All that being said, I eventually married a white man I met through other methods. While I believe what was stated in the study, I also put more general stock into the idea that people don’t always know what they want UNTIL they meet that person — and he or she happens to be from that ethnicity/race/cultural group that they never imagined themselves considering.
Christine 7
As an Asian woman I can vouch for what Sarah said, and say that I have gotten a lot of attention from white men on dating sites. It’s hit or miss. Sometimes it’s from nice white men who are genuinely interested in who I am as a person, with race having nothing to do with it. Other times, I’ve gotten some disgusting messages from white men with stereotypical ideas about Asian women being submissive sex objects who will “love you long time”. I’ve gotten used to it by now and try not to let some ignorant fools get to me (once I reported it to match when it crossed the line). I really wish that the world was different and that race didn’t matter at all, but have yet to see any study coming to that conclusion. Unfortunately online dating isn’t somehow immune from all the inequities of the world.
However, I still try to work within the medium as best I can. I’ve personally seen enough success stories (like my own sister) to think that online dating can work for minorities too.
Christine 8
In response to SS, I’ve seen some studies where they believe that men don’t list African American women in their “preferences” because of stereotypes that they are allegedly domineering and difficult. I hate to say that and don’t think that’s true but, that stereotype does exist. Just as I’ve run into men who think the opposite of Asians–that they will be submissive and eager to please. I think it might have something to do with those “Madame Butterfly” or “Miss Saigon” stereotypes–where the self-sacrificing, submissive Asian woman is some geisha/courtesan for the white man.
I think I know the X-rated thing Sayanta is referring to, about why some white men are willing to date Asians, but it’s too crude to put here! It’s incredibly stupid but sadly, I’ve run into guys who believe that.
Jadafisk 9
“A lot of time the men (who seem very liberal and cultured otherwise) write everything but black in their profile”
This is actually why I’ve never dated a white guy… because I live in the South, the subset of men that I’m solely interested in (liberal, “cultured”, educated, largely secular, childless, same age range, roughly equal attractiveness level), when white, refuses to date blacks - they tend to strongly prefer the company of Asians when dating interracially, if they date interracially at all - and the few white guys who show interest in me have more in common with my racial group’s stereotypical demographic profile than with me as an individual member of that racial group that deviates from said profile somewhat, so I just don’t bother. I ended up mostly dating guys from the groups that I have the strongest physical preference for, who coincidentally are also extremely likely to meet my other criteria as well - East Asian and Indian men. My problem, if and when I choose to care, is finding someone who’ll stay in it for the long haul with a black person.
As studies have shown, because of the fear of alienating potential mates from acceptable racial groups, many people lie or use preposterous work-arounds (if a person has found 99% of the people in a particular racial group unappealing, they can say that they’d be theoretically willing to date that 1% or people from that group that they haven’t had the opportunity to see before, instead of just describing themselves as functionally unwilling) to obscure their racial preferences and just practice them behind closed doors, which is even more disadvantageous to the people who are targeted for rejection.
Sayanta, white men are also extremely willing to date and marry Latinas. White/Latino is now the most common IR pairing involving whites. It’s got to do with a combination of beauty standards, socioeconomic status (both real and percieved), and religious background. Asian women are exceedingly good matches for one of the types of white men that’s more willing to date interracially. They’re educated, coastal, slender, often atheist/agnostic… they’re often assimilated into ”mainstream” culture, raised in neighborhoods and taught in schools right alongside whites, so there’s lots of common ground and copious opportunities. Also, the American beauty standard for women has become slightly more “ethnic” than in days past… not enough to include the very dark/full-featured among us, but enough to see dark hair/eyes, high cheekbones, tanned skin and full lips as pluses or neutral qualities instead of detractions.
Germaine Beuviere 10
As a “Black” woman, I prefer Asian men. However, it’s really hard to interact with them despite there supposedly being an increase between the two. I do get looks from other men even if I’ve specified who I am looking for. I don’t know if it’s because I’m a little aggressive (okay, I’m a lot aggressive LOL) or what. I just wished there would be more interacting. Race shouldn’t be an issue. If you’re secure in who you are then it shouldn’t matter.
Steve 11
Sayanta post #5 wrote
.
Another friend suggested something too X-rated for me to write on here…
Eh? You can’t just pique the readership’s curiosity and drop the issue
Steve 12
Sayanta in #4 wrote
but when I see a man that’s marked certain races in his preference list, I just click to the next profile. Even if he’s included my race in it- a lot of time the men (who seem very liberal and cultured otherwise) write ‘everything but black’ basically in their profile. Even though I’m not black, I just find this cruel.
I have seen the same thing with women’s profiles. It makes we wonder about the judgment of the author. It is easy enough to simply not to reply to such contacts, but instead they have something that makes them look mean or obtuse on their profile.
Lance 13
Interesting article and great topic. When I do searches on match, I limit my searches to white women, with the occasional sprinkling of Asians and Hispanics. I’ve verbalized many times that I’m not attracted to Asian women even if they’re off the charts hot, which is ironic in a terrible way because I’m partly Asian. There’s something going on there at a core level that I’d like change.
If a black woman asked me out on a date, I’d certainly go and put my best foot forward. IMO, lack of experience is a big factor, because it reduces my comfort level and allows any lingering prejudices to affect my actions. A sticking point for sure, and now that we’re discussing it I’d like to eliminate it.
It would be easier to try dating across racial lines if you met someone in person because then you focus on their personality and conversation vs. simply looking at skin color and facial geometry in pics. A huge drawback to online dating, for sure.
Sayanta 14
Some really great responses here- I wish I could discuss what every poster has said, but time limits me.
Jada- to your last paragraph in #9- the Asian women being “Atheist/Agnostic”- I never thought of that. I actually didn’t even know that. With us South Asians, life tends to revolve strongly around religion (for a lot, though not everyone).
yeah- now that I’m comparing online dating in my thirties to my 20s, I’m noticing an interesting pattern. In my twenties, I rarely got e-mails from men of my own culture (Indian). Most of them were from white men.
Now, at 32, I don’t get any e-mails from white men, or men of other races, but only men of my race. I haven’t changed too much in my core values and appearance in only a few years, so the only thing I can think of is this:
In my twenties, those guys were trying to just satisfy curiousity (or fetish)? Now, when, presumably, men are looking to settle down, they’re only looking at women their own race (or East Asian).
Oh, to SS-
That’s awesome that you called those guys on their bs. Good for you!
Karl R 15
The article said:
“More than 80 percent of whites — even the 48 percent of males and 28 percent of females who said they were indifferent to race — sent messages to whites”
If I believe (correctly or incorrectly) that I will get the most responses from white women, then it becomes a rational decision to focus my efforts on those women. A lot of that belief is based upon what I think the women I contact will prefer.
If I meet a woman in real life, I have a way to guage her interest in me. If it’s online, then it’s just a gamble. And the odds are lower if I contact someone who isn’t white.
Men gravitate toward what they like -and- toward where they think they’ll have the most success. (People don’t like constant rejection, so they tend to avoid large numbers of low-probability dating situations.) Therefore, I’m not sure that peoples actions are purely based upon racial bias. It seems likely that they’re partly based upon an expectation of encountering racial bias in other people.
The InBetweener said: (#3)
“Unfortunately, a lot of people misconstrue ‘race’ for ‘culture’ when I see them as two (2) TOTALLY different factors when it comes to dating.”
Yes and no. Your race doesn’t determine your culture. But there’s often a strong correlation between race and culture.
For example, in college I met a student who’d been orphaned or abandoned as an infant/toddler during the Vietnam War. She’d been adopted by an American family and been raised around the U.S. Her culture was white/middle class/army brat.
But the majority of Vietnamese in this city either grew up in Vietnam, or they were raised in a Vietnamese neighborhood where all the adults had been raised in Vietnam. If I meet a Vietnamese woman in those neigborhoods, we probably won’t be culturally similar.
In most cases, people will get along better when there is cultural similarity (there’s one fewer source of potential misunderstandings).
If I meet someone in real life, I can take an educated guess as to whether there are cultural similarities/differences. (Based on the person’s name, accent and speech patterns.) On-line, those clues are a lot less apparent.
Jadafisk said: (#9)
“many people lie or use preposterous work-arounds (if a person has found 99% of the people in a particular racial group unappealing, they can say that they’d be theoretically willing to date that 1% or people from that group that they haven’t had the opportunity to see before, instead of just describing themselves as functionally unwilling) to obscure their racial preferences and just practice them behind closed doors,”
In the time I spent on Match.com, I don’t believe I ever contacted a black or hispanic woman. Nor do I believe I ever added a black or hispanic woman to my favorites. Due to some cultural differences, I don’t think it’s a stretch for me to say that I’d rapidly rule out 99% of the black and hispanic women.
However, I have dated black and hispanic women whom I met in real life. I found them attractive, and I found them sufficiently similar for my own comfort.
99% of the time, I will quickly exclude a black or hispanic woman as a potential date. But 1% of the single black/hispanic women in this city is still a 5-digit number. That’s a lot of women. And I’m not going to rule out that many women because the odds of compatability are low.
Does my “1%” attitude make me “functionally unwilling” to date blacks and hispanics?
Jadafisk said: (#9)
“Asian women [...] they’re often assimilated into ”mainstream” culture, raised in neighborhoods and taught in schools right alongside whites, so there’s lots of common ground”
While I generally find these women physically attractive and sufficiently similar to me, I have never dated a Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese woman. (Due to lack of mutual interest.)
I’m not sure a person’s past dating record is an accurate reflection of their preferences and attitudes (though it does provide some insight).
Sayanta 16
EMK- I’m so sorry for the double post- I promise it’s the last time I’ll do it. But thanks for bringing this topic up. It’s actually been on my mind lately, and it’s great to discuss this with others.
SS 17
@Christine: That could be, but I also think it’s more appearance-related than anything. I’ve done a lot of interracial dating, and when I would ask some of the non-black men about the outside negative perception of African-American women, I rarely heard them mention attitude. It was more about looks that they didn’t consider to be attractive and perceived cultural differences (a supposed “ghetto” mentality). I also think that while Asian women are definitely perceived as submissive by most groups of men, white women are not perceived that way by white MEN. In fact, most white men that I know laugh at the idea that white women are supposed to be more submissive or easier to get along with in a general sense. The only men that seem to have this perception are minority men.
@Sayanta… it was pretty fun to do. I’m sure what happened was that they saw my picture and said, “Ooh, she’s cute,” and decided to write me. A dating coach/matchmaker I know (who is white) said she would meet white men who would say that they weren’t interested in dating certain groups of women (likely black), but when they happened to see a picture of a cute black woman in the book, they would say they’d like to go out with her. The matchmaker would say, “Wait, I thought you weren’t interested in black women?” and the man would answer, “But she’s hot though!”
I just think the best thing to do — regardless of your preference — is not list one at all, and then decide to write to/write back to those people that you find attractive (physically and otherwise). If they happen to be all white, so be it, but at least you don’t get yourself caught up in a trap when you’re contacting someone and that person notes your exclusionary selections!
Despite all this, I think the internet CAN be an excellent way for interracial relationships to begin. I interact with many black women who are involved with or married to non-black men, and a large number of them met their partners on the Internet. In a way, the Internet provides both groups greater access to people they likely wouldn’t have met in real life… some black women might get a reasonable amount of non-black men contacting them online, but none in real life, so online dating can be a plus in that sense.
It’s a minus though when you often get to see racial preferences displayed right in front of your eyes. I honestly have no problem with whites preferring whites, blacks preferring blacks, etc., but when it’s clear that people are preferring everything BUT black, that is telling me that we’re still in a society where certain interracial pairings are much less acceptable than others.
So I take a lot of the “Americans are more receptive to interracial marriage” statements with a grain of salt. Are we better than we were 30-40 years ago? Absolutely. But if one asked specifically about certain interracial pairings, I think that answers would be very telling.
Sayanta 18
Karl #15, first paragraph-
Hmmm- I don’t know about that. If I make the first step to write toward someone who’s white, Latino, or black (I’ve approached all three online), it’s obvious that fear of rejection shouldn’t be a factor. Yet, I rarely get responses from men outside my race anymore, when I did in my twenties.
Before someone recommends getting dating site coaching (not that I’m knocking that, EMK
) I usually get responses to the e-mails I send to Indian men. For those of you who’ve read my posts- I don’t really fit the ‘classic’ stereotype of a traditional Indian woman. So considering all this, there must be something deeper than a fear of rejection factor going on here.
SS 19
@Sayanta — I meant to mention something about Indian men… actually, I might have said something about this before in a thread a long long time ago.
When I started dating online, I got a LOT of contact from Indian men. The same happened when I did Speed Dating or went to a bar/club/party… even at my favorite local Indian food spot, the waiter asked me out.
I went on one date with some of these guys, but it never went past that. The waiter invited me up to his place to “watch TV” after the date, and I declined. Some of the other guys would call me to ask if I wanted to go out to a club that night (and they would call around 9 p.m. or so), and then with one guy who I met while at a club, the next time he called me was when he was drunk and it was 1:30 a.m. On a Wednesday.
Long story short — especially seeing the low numbers of interracial marriage with Indians in America — I came to the conclusion that I was “just for fun.” That might have been the same if I was a white woman as well, but it just seemed so odd how many initial contacts (in real life and online) I got from Indian men compared to white/Hispanic/other Asian men…
Meanwhile, I only know of one or two Indian man-black woman married couples out there… I eventually stopped responding to the Indian men who’d contact me because I had the sense that they were still in their “play around with non-Indian women” phase, and then when they hit that magical age, they would settle down and marry an Indian woman that they didn’t meet at the bar or club or at Speed Dating or on the Internet, unless it was Shaadi.com… and that’s a whole different scenario.
Any thoughts?
detha 20
I am in the UK and can say that interracial dating is not much of an issue here, like it appears to be in the US. I think the history in the US has alot to do with it; possibly because of slavery.
Just my humble opinion.
Sayanta 21
SS-
hey- I’m sorry to hear that- I wouldn’t be surprised if you had a less than stellar opinion on Indian men because of that! Well, it’s hard to really pass any kind of judgment without knowing you, the kind of men who asked you out, or being in the circumstances that you described. It sounds like you’ve sized up the situation pretty accurately, though.
I think we women of color def have a tougher battle to face in the dating world. Face it- men want white women (regardless of whether they’re white themselves) to take home to their families. The rest of us tend to be a ‘curiosity.’ So, it’s harder not to get jaded or stick with the dating scene enough to meet someone.
But I digress- you sound pretty intelligent, SS, so I would say just next time anything like this happens, look carefully at the man’s eyes. Everything he really wants is right there- I can tell whether a man wants to satisfy a fetish or really want to get to know me just by prolonged eye contact. Is the gaze intent, honest, warm? Or sleazy, or veiled. If reddened by alcohol use, forget it! A lot of time, it’s hard not to get carried away by a man’s smile, body language, or words- but if you ignore that (easier said than done) and really just focus on his eyes, you’ll have all the info you need to make an educated decision. May sound weird, but, it’s worked for me.
Even in online pics, I think this is a useful method. You don’t even know how many crazy-eyed men are on Match.
A-L 22
Enjoying the posts here. Like SS‘s #6, the everything but black posters drove me crazy (including when they wrote to me, as I’m half black). Never called them on it though.
As far as Karl‘s #15, a couple of things. First of all, saying that you’re only willing to date 1% of the population is probably construed as rather narrow-minded. But in Karl’s case, most of his numbers are probably in the single digits in terms of how many women he’d be interested in dating. (I may be wrong, though, so please correct me if that’s the case Karl.)
But as far as the culture/race thing, I have to disagree. I can tell from reading most profiles online whether someone is likely to be culturally similar enough to me for there to be a match. (Usually it has to do with the ability to string coherent sentences together that are about more than clubbing, drinking, etc, and nothing is said about “hitting it.”) The speech patterns that you use to tell in real-life whether someone is a likely match is also what you get when reading a profile.
SS & Sayanta: I think you’re both right that as guys get serious about finding someone to marry that’s when they start to stick to their own races, whereas before they may have been willing to play around with someone while they were playing the field.
And lastly, I had stopped reading after the soy sauce on tamales thing, thinking that what was below was an ad. But I was looking back at the article and found these statistics from the Pew Research Center.
14.6% of new marriages are interracial
Of those interracial marriages:
11% are between blacks & whites
41% are between Hispanics & whites
14% are between Asians & whites
But hey, at least my marriage will count toward the increasing numbers of intteracial relationships!
Sayanta 23
A-L-
Great to have your input. Hope you’re enjoying married life.
It’s funny about the whole race on Match thing- I think a couple of people mentioned it before- but the whole sticking to your own race thing seems to be something that happens specifically more on dating sites. EG, when I go out (and there happen to be single, young men in my activity, which is rare LOL), men of all races ask me out or show interest. The SAME thing happens on certain professionals websites that I’m on (eg, a guy will send me an e-mail after there’s been a random group chat on some kind of a forum).
Yet, dating sites are a different story. Of course, it could just be my profile, but again, that doesn’t explain why only men of my race are writing me (if my profile was that bad, I wouldn’t be getting any responses at all
)
SS 24
Thanks for the tips Sayanta.
I don’t think I did anything wrong at the time, but I realized that I needed to just stick to my general rule of not giving out my number to men at clubs (regardless of race)… even if they seemed perfectly nice and normal at the club, the “perception” of being a “club girl” made them act a particular way toward me.
)
(And I know that someone will probably chime in that they met their boyfriend/fiance/husband at a club, but I’m not talking about exceptions here!
Luckily, I am married now (and yes, interracially — which is why this topic is very interesting to me), so I don’t have to worry about what might have been in those particular Indian guys’ heads at the time. Your post just made me think about the fact that I got a LOT of initial interest from Indian men when I was dating (probably second to black men) and how it seemed unusual to me seeing that I rarely saw many black female-Indian male relationships… when you mentioned that you suddenly started getting interest from Indian men online, it made me wonder if this was an example of those guys getting serious and returning to Indian women for marriage, while they “played around” in their younger days with white or black women.
I am glad I stuck with it (being open to dating interracially). For all of those who let you know that you are NOT their preference, you can eventually find the gem (of whatever race) who thinks you’re the most beautiful thing in the world!
@A-L: Yes, I do have to wonder about “cultural values,” and how people are making that distinction. I don’t know about Karl’s specific situation (Karl, did you say you were atheist? I can’t remember), but if Karl is atheist, I can see how there would be a problem with many black and Hispanic women because most women in those groups are religious, and often very much so.
If religion isn’t the issue, then I would have to wonder more what supposed cultural clashes are going to take place. This reminds me of when my husband told his father that he was dating a black woman, and his father said that he supported whatever relationship he was in, but that he should be aware of “cultural differences” that might occur in the relationship.
Now let me say that my father-in-law has been nothing but accepting of me and very sweet. He’s just old and rural.
With that out of the way, my question was, what makes him assume that there are “cultural issues” that could be a problem? He didn’t even know me… just knew that I was black and born and raised in a large city. Otherwise, like my husband, we come from two parent homes, grew up in the Midwest, have undergraduate and graduate degrees, love to travel and did so in college, like reading, love history, are both rather patriotic and like sports.
Where’s the cultural clash there? We sound pretty similar! Or is the real deal that the assumption about black men and women (before one meets said people) is that they all possess a sort of lower-class “ghetto culture” and THAT’S where the clash comes in?
If my husband had told his father that he was dating an Asian woman, say, second-generation, would the issue of “cultural issues” come up? Probably not… in fact, I hear white men talking about trying to learn Mandarin (for example) to impress the girl’s parents! Suddenly, “cultural issues” aren’t that important, because most Asians are seen as possessing positive cultural values, while blacks (and Hispanics to some extent) are not.
I don’t think anyone can know if there is going to be a clash of cultural values or not simply by looking at a picture and seeing the person’s race. Now if there are statements made in the profile that indicate a cultural clash and you happen to notice this with the majority of black, white, Asian, Hispanic profiles you read, that’s one thing… but if a woman or man of a certain race is simply eating lunch in a restaurant and you know nothing about them, the assumption that there aren’t shared cultural values is very premature.
A-L 25
RE: SS‘s #24
I think Karl was talking about people who were either immigrants or are 1st generation Americans but have maintained culturally isolationistic. I think immigration issues do bring in a lot of cultural issues, perhaps even moreso for women who date immigrants than for men who date immigrants. (In many other cultures of the world the women are treated as second class citizens, so a male immigrant from those countries also holds to those same beliefs which can cause serious issues in romantic relationships in the U.S.)
But as far as the cultural clash goes with black people go, I think a lot of it is the perceived “ghetto” culture fear going on. Unfortunately, in many parts of the U.S. the nonghetto black culture is not very visible, and to some people The Cosby Show was make believe and they don’t think that people like that actually exist.
But that’s why I would always read someone’s profile, because as you said, a picture won’t tell you that cultural stuff.
lost 26
good question. actually i have been considering to ask Evan relationship problems related to race.
i am an Asian woman and also the first generation immigration. i had never thought of dating a white guy until i was so attracted to a white guy. Sadly found that he is only interested to have sextual relationship. I want more than that. that is why i am here. i want to know more about white man.:)
even so i cannot imagine i can live under one roof with a white guy long term. too different culture and customs.
some white guys are attracted to asian women for sex only. i even started to wonder whehter subconsciously they still consider asian second class or inferior. i feel i also got language problems.
whatever, maybe easier to go back to the man with the same race.
Sayanta 27
Lost-
Just a thought- maybe you should question yourself on why a white man is so important to you. Why not someone Latino, or African, for example?
BTW- I really like what you ladies have mentioned about race and culture being intertwined. I had to rethink what I said about men’s automatic dismissal regarding race.
There are women who (and I don’t mean this as a derogatory way to Caucasians) but for lack of a better term, have ‘whitened.’ Nikki Haley comes to mind. For those of you who don’t know, she’s the new, and first Indian-American, governor of S. Carolina.
She’s absolutely beautiful. But, she could ‘pass’ as white, as you can see. Her name has no Indian flavor left (she’s shortened it), and from what I understand and have read about her, she’s pretty much kissed Indian culture g’bye.
Her husband is a white dude, probably as vanilla as you can get. I don’t see women like her ever having a problem finding men of any race (who prefer white women) to date.
But once a little ethnic ‘flava’ such as culture, etc. starts coming in, then you’ve got a problem.
That said, I realize there’s a major flaw in my theory- plenty of American males are more than willing to date and marry women from East Asian countries, where obviously, the whole culture clash takes place. Again, that could be because, in that particular case, any possible stereotype overtakes (and wins) other considerations.
Karl R 28
SS said: (#24)
“if Karl is atheist, I can see how there would be a problem with many black and Hispanic women because most women in those groups are religious, and often very much so.”
I’m a theologically liberal Christian (simple explanation: I view much of the bible as meaningful allegory, not literal fact).
So if a woman’s profile says, “Jesus is the most important thing in my life,” or “I’m looking for a God-fearing man,” or anything similar, we’ll probably have a big schism involving religious views.
SS said: (#24)
“Now if there are statements made in the profile that indicate a cultural clash and you happen to notice this with the majority of black, white, Asian, Hispanic profiles you read, that’s one thing…”
I always read people’s profiles. I wouldn’t make guesses about a person’s culture just based upon race.
For another example, a lot of black women say they are looking for an ambitious man and/or describe themselves as being ambitious. That’s not who I am. I am happy with where I am in life, and I’m more interested in enjoying my life than in trying to gain more status or income. I’d rather pour my spare time and energy into hobbies that I’m passionate about, rather than into my career.
I’d rather not be married to someone who feels I should be more ambitious. I feel that I’ve been sufficiently successful with my more laid-back approach to life.
Those statements pop up quite frequently in the profiles of intelligent, educated black women. I don’t see that as being a bad thing, but it’s not who I am.
I do not come from a close-knit family. A lot of Hispanics (and other cultures which were previously mentioned) believe in very strong familial ties. If you’re close to your family, that’s fine. If you expect me to be the same way, we’re going to have some problems.
Pictures can sometimes be informative. To a certain extent, we choose how we appear, and those choices can be informative. But those clues are at least as likely to apply to personality traits as cultural values.
Sayanta said: (#21)
“Face it- men want white women”
We’re all shaped by our experiences. I know a lot of styles of dance, including salsa. One time (after several months of Salsa classes) I went to a popular club where there’s a lot of salsa dancing. I noticed that the Hispanic men danced with whomever they wanted (regardless of race). The Hispanic women treated the non-Hispanic men as persona non grata.
It was particularly noticeable when I asked women whom I knew from the studio for a dance. They already knew me. They knew that I was a better-than-average dancer. They knew that I was interested in a dance, not a date. And they were happy to dance with me at the studio. But they were suddenly uncomfortable when we were outside our normal environment.
My best guess was that they were worried about experiencing some form of social censure from within their own community if they were socializing with non-Hispanic men … even though the men experienced no such censure when they chased non-Hispanic women.
From my Indian coworkers I have gathered that there is some pressure from their families to marry within their culture (since India is multicultural, that sometimes rules out many other Indians as well). When I was dating an Indian woman, I was concerned with what her family’s reaction would be … until I found out that she was 1/2 Indian and 1/2 Filipino (her appearance and name were Indian, so I’d assumed she was Indian). Obviously her family had no issues with this.
And everyone is aware that some non-whites marry whites as a form of social climbing. If that’s a woman’s goal, then I’m not interested in her.
Whether someone is avoiding me because I’m white, or whether they’re seeking me out because I’m white, it makes dating harder.
SS 29
Thanks for your answers Karl.
What I find interesting about your experiences is the fact that many of the black women I know in real life (or even online) don’t often end up with that ambitious guy that they’re seeking… in fact, it seems that the average professional black woman is often encouraged to not aim so high and give the nice janitor/bus driver/sanitation worker a chance.
And many do… only to find themselves often being resented by those same men… so they either just deal with it or end up saying that they will simply stick with men of the same professional/educational background to avoid that clash. So it’s interesting to see that those women you encountered frequently used the term “ambitious” in their online profiles — my hunch is that they might not be necessarily all that focused on finding a man of status and with success (although some probably are), but it’s a counterreaction to the types of men they’re probably meeting in real life. They really want to weed out the loser guys who aren’t doing anything with their career and have little to no education, so mentioning the word “ambitious” is probably their way of saying they want someone who has a decent work ethic.
I do agree with you 100% on the religion thing though. Like you, I consider myself as a liberal Christian, and it has frequently been a struggle for me to have conversations with other black women in general because a evangelical religious slant somehow ALWAYS ends up entering the conversation. I could be talking about how my husband and I want to buy a home and how we’re wondering about interest rates and if we should wait until we sell my old house, etc., and inevitably, a black female friend will say that we should do our research and “take it to God in prayer” and we might just get the house we want.
While that’s a nice sentiment, it would also be nice to have a talk about SOMETHING without the recommendation of “prayer” and “Jesus” entering the conversation, you know?
Regarding the Hispanic women that would not dance with you… I agree that censure from Hispanic men probably was the issue. Many black women experience the same problem. And the hypocrisy, of course, is that men from those groups do date whatever race of woman they want, but don’t like it when the women in their group do the same thing.
Sherell 30
I leave my preferences open to all races and see who responds. As a black woman I get 65% black and 35% white. There have been a few white men responding that have excluded blacks from their preference. When I mention very nicely that it appears I am not what they looking for, many go and change their preference. Lol! I think when they read my profile and see my pictures they are interested. There is some hesitation but many guys from large diverse urban areas have enough experience and exposure to realize not to believe stereotypes. I could only date someone, whatever race that has a diverse experience. I am so global Lol!! I respect people who have a certain physical attraction. I struggle with pale skin. Lol!!! A tan helps
Sarah 31
I want to respond to what Sayanta #4 said, about being put off by a profile that lists certain racial preferences. I completely understand and agree when it comes to a great many characteristics: age, weight, etc.
When I see a man’s profile that says he’s looking for someone who is slim or athletic, and won’t consider someone who is average or even “a few extra pounds” (which could seriously be only five pounds — barely noticeable!), I find that very off-putting. Even if I’m thin enough for him, the fact that he cares that much rubs me the wrong way… and ESPECIALLY if he’s not thin or athletic himself.
Same thing with age. I’m still relatively young (early 30s) and a lot of guys in their 40s or 50s take an interest in me. I wouldn’t rule out a guy in his early-to-mid forties, but if I see that he requires someone much younger, that’s a major turn off… even if I would otherwise be attracted to him and I’m young enough for him. If someone his age isn’t good enough for him, why should someone his age be good enough for me? But I’m sure my online-dating “sisters” can back me up when I tell you there are GAZILLIONS of men’s profiles proclaiming an interest in younger women… only!
Do they not realize that it can be really unattractive when you state a preference based on external factors that nobody can control, such as race or age? That they might repulse someone who MEETS their criteria who would otherwise be interested? As I said earlier, I prefer light skin, but I definitely wouldn’t rule out a darker guy. If I said so in my profile I might miss the opportunity to meet a wonderful man who happens to have dark skin… it’s not my preference, but it’s not that big a deal.
Okay, I’ll step down off the soapbox now. I think Evan could write a great post on how the preferences we list that we want other people to have can come back to bite us! (Not that I would ever want someone to lie in their profile… that’s a whole ‘nother rant!)
Cat 32
Sarah, #31 wrote: “Do they not realize that it can be really unattractive when you state a preference based on external factors that nobody can control, such as race or age? That they might repulse someone who MEETS their criteria who would otherwise be interested?”
Excellent points, Sarah! I’d had older men (5-15 years older) contact me online whose profiles claim they only want women at least five years younger than me who “definitely” want at least two kids. I think a lot of times these much older men (who have managed to remain childless into their 40′s and 50′s) still want the “option” to have kids by dating much younger women or at least to think of themselves as being young enough to exercise that option. However, they miss out on the opportunity of dating me!
Dojhariah 33
As a white woman, I have to agree with the poster who said that beauty standards have changed and tend to favor those who look like the median. I think it is not as easy to be online and be a darker-skinned black woman or a pasty pale white woman like me. At this point in my life, I feel like Karl R. that I have a pretty good sense of who will be attracted to me and who won’t. I have lived in diverse areas and have been teased about being pale. Honestly, i want to come home to someone who doesn’t just put up with how I look, but actually loves the way I look. Therefore, because “medium” skin seems to be preferred in my culture, I won’t bother spending too much time on a good looking guy (regardless of race) who looks like he would have broad appeal, i.e. “medium” skin tone and features. On the other hand, I might be more likely to contact a red-haired guy because I think I’d have a greater chance with him.
Incidentally, skin coloring is not high on my list of physical qualities I consider important, but I actually *prefer* both extremes of skin color — generally light and generally dark. Go figure. Ultimately, none of us can really help what we’re attracted to, so I try to be forgiving in that regard. If people state specific qualities they are looking for (hair color, height, ethnicity), I am actually a little more thankful because they’ve saved me some time. However…. if the *only* racial category they haven’t checked is black (and, yes, I’ve seen this, too), then I am suspicious and have never dated anyone in that category.
Jadafisk 34
As for openly restricting options due to external factors beyond their control and the effect on their own image… as a person who does this, I can say that people who do this largely don’t care. If someone has an age cutoff… say, they want a man in his twenties or thirties, and they say as much. Would this repel some young men who are repulsed by his/her categorical disinterest in middle-aged men? Yes. But it’s more important that the person repels middle-aged men, if his/her inbox would get flooded with their unwanted messages without the cutoff. Furthermore, people are infinitely more understanding if a person has decided to restrict their interest to someone like themselves than if they seem to hold a double standard of some sort.
The Internet is where people who are less alike get opportunities to proposition one another that they otherwise wouldn’t have or take due to power differentials, social censure, bashfulness, residential patterns, social circles, etc. This means that relationships between dissimilar partners have an opportunity to blossom for those that are interested in them, but it also means that people who want to engage in assortative mating are sometimes put in a position where they’re bombarded with interest from people who seem to them like preposterously bad matches. Low response rates due to widespread percieved incompatibility with a target group often perpetuate a low-investment, high-volume messaging strategy that exacerbates this effect (and is *annoying*), so for many, putting a clearer picture of their desired mate out there for all to see helps them cut through the clutter. There are good and bad ways to convey one’s preferences, of course. Also, as a person who’s regularly on the negative end of racial preferences, I want to know. I don’t want to be “given a shot” by someone who’s not usually interested in people who look like me, and I don’t want to waste time messaging people who don’t answer, analyzing my message content, rearranging my profile and getting neurotic about my attractiveness level if it’s not me, it’s them.
Also, are short/medium height girls who want tall guys and say so considered unfair for seeking a dissimilar partner or repulsive for dismissing people based on an immutable quality?
Sherell 35
@ Sarah. The thing about body size IMO is that people have different perceptions about what is “average” and what is “a few extra pounds. I have had guys contact me to say that they were average and clearly they were obese. I have had some of my male friends confirm the same. My oreferences include both average and a fe w extra pounds. I considered removing those two but left them there for those guys that really fit the bill IMO.
Goldie 36
@ Sarah & Sherell ## 31, 35. I agree with Sherell, the reason people place their cutoff at “average” and “a few extra pounds” is that these terms are often being used as a euphemism for “seriously overweight”. Personally, I’m going to leave my search open to all body types except obese and see what happens. If someone misrepresents his body type, I’ll find that out when we meet in person, no big loss on my end. I have nothing against big guys – I’ve gone out with one – it’s just the, ahem, physical limitations that I have, plus the relatively active lifestyle that I prefer to lead.
On the general subject of this thread, I am as white as they come, but I’m not from this country originally and I’m in the Midwest – you’re not going to believe the number of people here that see me as culturally different. And of course, you don’t know if a guy sees you as “not one of us”, or as a curiosity, until the two of you have had your first argument. It’s just a chance I have to take.
Sayanta 37
Really quick- Sarah, I feel your pain with the 40-50 dudes who e-mail us. (I’m assuming you’re annoyed by this though- correct me if I’m wrong). I’m sure there have been threads about this before but, I’ve got to say it. Are these men DELUSIONAL? Seriously? Your average everyday 54 year old man thinks an attractive 20-30 woman is going to be interested in him? Again…seriously?
I think the internet in general breeds weird ‘mating’ (using the term very loosely) behavior. I’ve had the above happen- I’ve also e-mailed eligible (to me, of course) men who don’t respond, but then look at my profile every single day.
And going back to the race thing, I highly doubt any man would ever say “I don’t date black women” in public- yet by writing that on Match, he’s essentially saying the same thing. I just thought of something else- it may sound like a convoluted, but if that same man happened to be on Match, and so did his boss, who happens to be a black female, and she comes across his profile on Match, and is rightfully offended by what she sees…he might have cost himself a promotion.
You’ve just got to be careful with these things, and I think people forget that.
For me, the Internet tends to be kind of crazymaking when it comes to dating- but right now, at 32, when most of the people I meet in NYC doing my fave activities are girls, and men at work or otherwise are all taken, I’ll have to grin and bear it, I guess…
Jennifer 38
Such an interesting conversation!
I can really relate to SS#29 regarding what ‘ambition’ often means to a black woman as well as the religious angle.
I’m a black woman that would also fall into the ‘liberal Christian’ category and was recently talking to a friend about how I have not had one conversation with another black woman at work where God wasn’t mentioned. These were not all woman that I knew well and the conversation had nothing to do with religion. I know religious white women as well, but there are not as many casual mentions of God in conversation with them. I’ve grown pretty accustomed to it and I don’t really have a problem with it, but I can see how that manner of speaking could be offputting to.
Regarding ambition, I’ve also observed that anytime the subject of dating comes up, often one of the first things a black woman is told to do is to ‘stop being so picky’ regarding a man’s career. Not only is the black woman lawyer told to give the sanitation man a shot, she is often told that she is wrong or ‘uppity’ for not immediately considering him in the first place. I know that white and other single women are also told not to be so picky, but it’s often about things like height or maybe age; it’s not common for me to hear them be admonished for thinking they are ‘too good’ to date men with certain jobs. So i agree with SS’s assessment of what ‘ambition’ likely means when in a black woman’s online profile.
AL#22 also strikes a chord with me: I know some black people that *hate* the cosby show because they feel it was fake and ‘no black people really lived like that’ and they were annoyed that when they were growing up they didn’t have a t.v. show that was more ‘hood’ that they could relate to.
And in line with the point Sayanta was making, the only thing that really raised my eyebrows when i was dating online is if a black man listed being open to dating every race except black. Just seemed like he was going out of his way to make a point.
Sarah 39
Sherell and Goldie, you’re right — lots of people fudge their weight and other factors considerably. Me, I’m blatantly honest, because I want someone to be attracted to me as I am and not be disappointed when he meets me in person, and not have a very valid reason to distrust me if he finds I’m not what I claimed to be. I remember one guy who chose “a few extra pounds” instead of “full figured” when he was actually spherical (I’m not even exaggerating… well not much
).
I was reading in another thread about how a lot of men add 2-3 inches to their height so they’ll come up in more women’s searches… and the women react by adding 2-3 inches to their minimum preferred height. So next I guess the men will add 4-5 inches, and the women will respond in kind, until all the men are eleven feet tall and all the women are looking for someone at least 12 feet tall. Ugh! It’s such a shame it has come to that.
Daphne 40
Interesting that it’s always white men going after Asian women, and hardly ever the other way around.
Re the last post- always funny to meet a guy who claims he’s three inches taller than me, but we are looking eye to eye IRL.
Sayanta 41
Daphne-
no way- I’ve known plenty of Asian women who’ve chased after white dudes like they’re human gods. It def goes both ways.
PS- I guess I’ve been lucky with the height thing- so far, every guy has been truthful about that
Daphne 42
@Sayanta-
“Human gods” ! I laughed at that one. This may explain why so many
successful white men IMHO are quite full of themselves- both Asian and white women pursuing them.
When I said other way around, I meant very few Asian men and white women couples. The Asian men I have dated- including extremely good-looking and successful men, have had a reasonable and not arrogant view of themselves.
Sayanta 43
Daphne-
lol- ok, misunderstood that. you’re right though, about everything you wrote in 42.
Sherell 44
I think alot of white men that are initially filling out their preferences will exclude black women because of stereotypes and don’t want to be contacted by them. That being said, those same guys will turn around and contact a black women when they see a profile and picture and decide that this one is different.
It sad that so many people don’t realize that although not the majority, there are many Cosby families in the real world. Coming from such a family for generations it interesting to encounter whites an immigrants that are first generation middle to upper class and college educated and I am third generation. When I happen to mention that my mother had maids and my father went to private school and took private piano and violin lessons when they were young or that my cousin received a baby grand piano on her 10th birthday, they look at you like you are an alien.
Nicole 45
@Sherell, I agree, but I think that you’ll still get contacted by people that realize that you don’t fit the stereotype but still want to experiment with you, which is odd. I mean, I’ve never called out anyone like SS did, because I didn’t want to clue them in to anything that might help them succeed with other women of color, but if you do want to just play around with a black woman, do you think that a successful, educated professional black woman is really going to agree to be part of your sociological experiment? I’ve gotten emails from people telling me that they’d never want to actually date me but want the experience of being to with a black woman, and I seem like the type that they might like to try. And I have two advanced degrees that I mention in my profile. It makes me wonder what exactly they think black women are all about that they’d even send such a disrespectful email.
And while my parents didn’t grow up privileged, my sister and I certainly did, so odds are, if anything, my background might have been a lot more comfortable than the majority of people out there of any race. So to me, the biggest “cultural” differences that I might have with someone aren’t really cultural but socioeconomic. Actually, when the Cosby show came out, my family was interviewed for our local paper as a family that did fit that mold, since so many people were claiming that they weren’t reflective of a REAL black family. It’s really offensive when people try to claim that your family model is somehow not authentic, esp. when it’s because it’s a positive model and not a negative one.
A lot of the people who assume these difference don’t know enough about the other cultures to really make that call. They are assuming things probably based on what they see on TV or whatever stereotypes that they know.
And I don’t buy the cultural difference argument for the men who list everything but black, b/c we could safely assume that the majority of men on the site, since it’s in the U.S., are white American males, and are we are supposed to believe that they think that what is most likely a first generation Asian American woman(unless you are in California) has a cultural connection to him but a black American woman whose family has been in the U.S. for hundreds of years doesn’t? And ditto with the Latinas and other races that he lists as being okay?
I think the aesthetic, both real and imagined, is what is mostly at play there. But yeah, some of those men will see a black woman’s picture and thinks “oh, she’s cute.” You don’t even have to be ambiguously ethnic for that to be the case.
I’m a chocolate brown skinned woman, and I’ve gotten both sleazy and regular emails from men who have the “everything but black” racial preference.
I liked A-L’s comment about speech patterns. I screen on both education level and speech patterns, b/c someone who can’t write a coherent sentence but claims higher education is either lying or didn’t make good use of his time in school(which I’d read as either laziness or stupidity), and in either case, I’m just not interested.
But I love this discussion, and loved hearing from other women of color, and hope more people chime in from time to time. I’ve read a lot of Sayanta’s and A-L’s comments and always love when they weigh in. Thanks for having our “virtual” back online there. I feel as though a lot of people don’t notice what you noticed regarding black women and online dating, so it’s nice to know that someone pays attention to how we are viewed online, because it says a lot about how we are perceived in real life. Listing the racial preference has nothing to do with who you fear will reject you. It’s just so much more than that.
What is interesting to me is that a lot of negative stats (e.g. lower levels of education, lower socioeconomic status, and the supposed “urban” mentality) that are identified with blacks are pretty much the SAME within the Latino population too, yet that doesn’t decrease their desirability with white men at all. So to me that screams that the light or white skin that some of them have (I get so annoyed by people acting like Latino is a race when plenty of Latino are black or Asian or Native American) is enough to ignore the other possible issues.
NonExist 46
Growing up in a certain area I was only exposed to my own culture which correlated at the time to a certain ethnic group in the local area so the only women I was attracted to in my youth were women of my culture and ethnic group. I had no idea of anything else. And I had no problems with that.
After ateending a multicultural private school and a normal university and tech school I met different people and found that my actual preferences and choices, aside from how I was raised, were mutual with people from different backgrounds.
And living in the bible belt makes it really hard to find someone in general when you are atheist/agnostic and not into the nuclear family dynamic. There are more quirks, but I just do not fit in with my local demographic much. Evan would probably tell me I need to tone the weirdness down to find someone.
And relocation is not economically feasible at this point.
Sayanta 47
Nicole-
I don’t know if you’re still reading this, but I was curious. You said that you’ve gotten e-mails from men who’ve written “everything but black” on their profiles. What do you do when you get these? Do you respond?
Even though I’m not black, it really bothers me when I see that on Match profiles. And usually I don’t bother with them. But my friends tell me I’m being too picky, and just because he wrote that doesn’t mean that he’d be a bad partner. I don’t know though…I feel like it shows an insensitivity on that guy’s part. For example, if I were a black woman (I’m Indian, by the way) reading through profiles that kept saying that would really hurt me. Am I being over sensitive here? I don’t know.
Just recently, a white dude emailed me on OKC. I was pretty stoked by his profile, but in his ‘questions’ he made it very clear that he will only marry white women. Obviously, this put me off big time. But he still insisted that we’d be great together! Weird.
I would think the best thing to do would be to write ‘no preference’ for race, and then if you’re not attracted to a person of a certain ethnicity, just don’t write them or email them back. Simple, no? Also, I saw some Australian guy’s profile on Match, and TAGLINE was “I ONLY LIKE WHITE WOMEN. WOMEN OF COLOR, DON’T CONTACT ME.” He wrote it like that, with the caps. I mean, is that really necessary? Jeez.
But going back to my old point, I’d be particularly interested to hear what any black women reading my post may think.
Joe 48
Sayanta: it can be a practical matter. If you don’t exclude the ethnicities you aren’t interested in, then your search results can be rather long.
Sayanta 49
Joe-
Yes, but what I’m saying is there’s no need to put your race preference ON your proflie. If you do a search on your own, it obviously doesn’t matter what race pref you put- no ones going to see you searching anyway.
Nicole 50
@Sayanta, I ignore them. You get three types. You get some who say “no black chicks” but send you a more or less normal email, which I delete. You get some who say “no black chicks” but “I’d like to have sex with one so how about it?” which of course SCREAMS to me the stereotypes that they likely believe about black women, even the ones who have nice jobs and are educated. I delete those too. Then you get the ones who don’t have any preferences, send a normal first email but get inappropriate or racist pretty fast (e.g., trying to get permission to ask some offensive question about racialized sexual stereotypes). I mean, I only told one person that I could tell he was veering into offensive territory so I was done. But normally I’d just delete and block at that point too. They aren’t worth anything else b/c I also don’t want to “clue them in” about what they are doing wrong. I’d hate for another WOC to go out with a racist who got tips on how to hide it.
@Joe, if you are conducting a SEARCH on Match that lets you FILTER out people you search for, why the need to exclude those races in your profile? You don’t like them, then don’t include them in your search. Match’s algorithm will ALWAYS send you matches who don’t meet all of your criteria. That’s how I’m sure I get seen by men who “don’t like black women.” I filter out men who don’t have college degrees or higher. But I get plenty of matches emailed to me who don’t have them. But again, when I’m SEARCHING on Match, I filter those people out.
And did you read anything that we were writing? If you say “no black chicks” in your profile, then don’t EFFING email ME. I’m a black chick. Not some vaguely ethnic, light skinned one that you could convince yourself wasn’t really black. You don’t like them. You put it in your profile, and then email like like I’m what, supposed to be flattered to be the one Black woman in America that you think doesn’t suck? WTF?
Those guys should set the filter on their search for no black women and they should not contact black women EVER. Problem solved.
Actually, the whole thing has been kind of gross to me and I haven’t bothered with any of it for MONTHS.
I think I just need to move someplace where there are more black women and black people in the general population b/c I dislike the real life scene where I currently live too, and I see few black people and people make it obvious that they think it’s something weird to be. It’s not about needing a black man, b/c I don’t think it’s most important thing, but about finding men who are used to being around black people and black women and don’t think we are all undateable aliens.
Sayanta 51
Nicole-
You definitely sound frustrated with the whole online dating thing- I sympathize completely. Like I’ve said before, it’s really very hard for dark-skinned women on those sites. I wish I could offer genuine words of encouragement about the whole thing…but well, I can’t.
Men, no matter where they live or are raised, will prefer light-skinned blondes. They may not get that, but they prefer that. I guess I have to make peace with that.
SS 52
Hey Sayanta… I think I mentioned what I used to do. For the most part, I just ignored the guys who excluded black women but still wrote me/winked at me, but a few times I got so annoyed that I wrote to them what I mentioned in #6.
I would specifically ask these men why they wrote me when they stated in their profile that they were interested in every race of woman BUT black, and yet, they wrote me, a black woman.
None of them ever wrote me back, btw. One could say that maybe I didn’t need to bother doing this, but hey, I considered it my little blow against their prejudices. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me if some men aren’t interested in women of certain ethnicities (we all have a right to our preferences), but if that’s the case, then don’t contact women of those specific groups because you might find their pictures hot or possibly want to have a sexual experience!
Like you said, I don’t see why it’s so difficult to just leave race open and then only search for the women of your desired group. And if someone of the group you don’t like contacts you, just ignore her.
Sayanta 53
Sorry for the double post but it just occurred to me- Nicole, have you ever asked any guy why he would email you after he specifically said no black women in his profile? If someone calls them on it, I’ve got to wonder how they would respond. I should do that next time.
Jeff 54
Daphne 42
The Asian men I have dated- including extremely good-looking and successful men, have had a reasonable and not arrogant view of themselves.
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I think that’s why the stereotypes (there are quite a few of them) have been allowed to perpetuate and grow – because asians (or orientals over here) lack that arrogance that dispels and kills it off, whilst white men continue that – and with their arrogance, push their agenda – which of course is to label other races other than their own as poor catches.
SS 17
I also think that while Asian women are definitely perceived as submissive by most groups of men, white women are not perceived that way by white MEN. In fact, most white men that I know laugh at the idea that white women are supposed to be more submissive or easier to get along with in a general sense. The only men that seem to have this perception are minority men.
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I’ve noticed with such assumptions in the pairings – whilst going like for like (same race), the woman and the man never have that submissive view of each other. But a different race does e.g. an asian man would never say an asian woman is submissive, and and asian woman would never say an asian man is a wuss, based on their interactions and “history” with each other….but to other races, the asian man is a weakling, and the asian woman is a submissive little flower.
Same goes for whites, there’s a “grass is always greener” mental element coming into play. And of course the long reaching and ever present stereotypes for asians (both men and women) that have stayed in western society – not on the surface, but always between the lines – that influences mindsets.
Jeff 55
Just to elaborate on my previous post, it isn’t only just how a person of a race sees the opposite sex of another race differently from their own…they also, subconciously or otherwise, ACT differently towards the other race. e.g. asian women are (in general) demanding authoritarians when dating asian men – but are submissive, eager to please when with a white man. It’s an exclusively asian women trait too – white women (who date black men) do this, but nowhere near as common as the above.
It’s the ingrained animosity, usually towards their own races’ men, which in turn makes them more open to others.
ATLdater 56
I’ve just stumbled on this site for the first time, so I have no idea if this thread is recent or years old, but what a fascinating discussion!
For comparison, I’d like to weigh in from a point of view I haven’t seen yet: a gay man’s perspective. A lot of the same crap goes on with online dating on our side too, but with some differences.
Sayanta and SS (#14, #19)
I’d say in the gay male world, it’s exactly the reverse of the situation you describe. The older men get, the MORE relaxed they seem to get with the idea of interracial dating. Unsurprisingly, men of color tend to get there before white men, but in the end I find that it’s rare for men in their 40s or 50s of any race to list strong racial exclusions in their profile.
Meanwhile, it’s something you see in nearly every profile for men under 30. The most common is for them to exclude everyone but their own race (i.e., white only, black only, etc.), something which I honestly don’t have a problem with. But then the next most common thing seems to be to list everything EXCEPT black, or often everything EXCEPT Asian. That I do find repulsive.
There are a couple of factors, I think:
#1) Age: gay men over 50 are toast within our culture and so if you’re 55 there’s no reason to narrow your pool any more than absolutely necessary.
#2) Status: Young gay men can be extremely status conscious. It’s almost like family pressure, I think. Just as it’s been described above that Indian parents pressure their sons to marry within the race, there’s a similar pressure among gay men to have a “hot” boyfriend. When you’re 26 that almost always means someone who’s typical of the race of your social group and with six-pack abs. It’s less important what YOU think of him, would EVERYONE ELSE think he’s hot? No gay guy would ever admit this is true, of course, but believe me it is. Karl referred to a similar thing in #28. It’s less about people’s preferences and more about what they think everyone else will think. By the time they reach 40 or 50, you just don’t care as much about what your friends think.
To Sherell (#44) and Nicole (#45), I completely feel that! I’ve never gotten an email from a “no blacks” type profile, but I have gotten winks, favorites, and multiple visits over time. (I am black and have dated men of all races.) Yes, when you fill out a profile, it’s in the abstract. It’s not concrete with real people in mind. So people seem to mostly go with their prejudices and stereotypes. Most of these young guys are probably looking for an Ashton Kutcher or a James Franco, but are so creeped out by the specter of an email from Uncle Remus that they’d shut out a Shemar Moore or a Tyson Beckford in the process, whom they would certainly NOT turn down in person.
That’s why I think SS, Nicole, myself and others get these contacts. In the abstract those men think “they’re all ghetto”. But then when faced with actual human beings, they find that we have a FULL RANGE of education, looks, jobs, lifestyles, preferences, and concerns just like everyone else.
This gets at some of what Sarah talked about in #31. I too have found myself on occasion flipping through Match profiles as though I’m flipping through a furniture catalog. Nope, too tall. Nope, too fat. Nope, his hair looks weird. Etc., etc. Whenever I do that, I go back and try to remember that people aren’t furniture. I may not initially be attracted to a heavyset man, say, but then I remember the guy I met at a party years ago who was overweight and was totally smart and charming and wonderful, and with whom I had a brief fling that was nice while it lasted. (We broke it off for reasons having nothing to do with his weight.) Or, I used to say that blonds can’t do anything for me but point me to the dark men. But then I fell head-over-heels for a beautiful bolt of lightening who came into my life over the summer, who was… you guessed it, blond.
Now I basically don’t put any preferences in my profile because I’ve realized that I’m not designing a sofa, I’m entering (potentially) into a relationship. And in my experience at least, it’s possible to be quite surprised by who you would be compatible with. Why rule any of that out?
Celia 57
I have read a lot of these and found them to be quite interesting. As a black woman growing up as a minority amongst mostly whites I spent a lot of my high school and college years single and unpursued by men of any race. I felt ugly and lonely despite older women and friends raving about how beautiful I was. I decided to try online dating later on in college and found a lot of profiles had the “Ill date anyone but black women” taG lines. Yes, it was hurtful to read these… Very much so. I didn’t understand how some people could be so blatantly mean. Like Sayanta, I couldn’t help but notice how some of these people couldn’t picture themselves on the other end and be more courteous to these black women who would read their profile and be hurt by it. I understand we all have preferences. I do as well; but if a person has my level of education and cultural interests I would give them the time of day anyhow. Unfortunately most people I encountered on dating sites did not share this open-minded view of mine.
Some people did, however. I had to “read their eyes” like I think Sayanta mentioned above to figure out if they only sought me out for “fun” or a “trustworthy companionship.” It was a really long, hard journey. Lots of first dates and some questionable “relationships” but I managed to avoid being used as a persistent blow up doll Using that instinct alone.
To turn around a sad story, I found the one! Hes half Asian and white and he shares the common interests that I do. We met online and were just friends for years and one day we met. We are married now and I’m quite happy as he loves me, finds me beautiful and accepts me for who I am.
i was interested in this article as I still have many black female friends struggling out there. It really is harder for us to find love and appreciation from the opposite sex. I don’t know if its stereotypes, prejudice or a basic American preference for European beauty (as we reflect the race most different from that Scandinavian beauty so many men find irresistible). This all can be really psychological damaging for black women who, like all women, desire love and genuine compassion. I grew up in that environment and it took me a really long time to love and appreciate myself because of it. Yes, I’ll always be a little thicker despite diet and exercise. My nose isnt pointy, my skin isnt going to get any lighter, my hair is thick and curly. I’ll never have the dainty, petite, slender build some men desire. But I have accepted who I am and continue each day to love myself more. I appreciate my differences and have embraced them. Nobody can take that away from me, and boy have they tried! I just hope my friends hang in there and stay strong. It wasn’t easy for me but there is someone out there who will love them for the wonderful women they are. Same goes for the women in this thread. Stay in there, be strong, love yourself and someone will love you too. He’s out there somewhere. Good luck ladies. I enjoyed your posts.