Comments on: Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?

By: Blueberrie

Blueberrie — Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:12:09 +0000

Hmm I can see the guy point of view and the girl point of view here. I think though as a woman it’s very hard to determine if a guy wants you for just sex or more and 3 dates simply isn’t enough time to know if it will “be” something if you do give it up. Doesn’t mean women don’t want to have sex by the 3rd date with someone they are very attracted to but at that point it really is just too soon to have any sort of real knowledge about who the guy is BECAUSE from my experience a guy is all about making some great impression in those first few dates so you will sleep with him, he isn’t being the real guy. So in a way you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. in other words you are sleeping with someone because you fell for his act, not because you really know who he is. Only way to get past this is to wait, or take your chances.
Also, for a guy to make a move first few dates for sex is honestly often a little creepy. It puts a lot of pressure on a woman to decide right then and there. And of course women have boundaries but I always find that decision making process difficult and high pressure in a lot of instances. You give a little and they expect a lot. Gosh I’ve been called everything under the sun for not giving it up from prude, to telling me I have trust and committment issues, to being called a tease and a flirt. It honestly can make you feel like “prey”, not a great feeling at all when you are really just trying to get to know someone. I have to say I’ve had anxiety or paniky feelings about dates 2 and 3 with guys, KNOWING that this sort of behaviour will likely go on and the pressure to decide if I want to or not is strong, so strong that it can freak me out to the point of just not wanting to go out with the guy and not wanting to have to deal with it. It’s high pressure because a guy wants what he wants HOWEVER if a woman was insisting on the first date that they discuss marriage and babies and being all committed for life and a serious relationship and we were selling YOU and you had to decide in that first date, second or third date if that’s what you want, I kinda think a lot of guys would stay home and not bother with it all. just playing devil’s advocate here.

By: Lizzy

Lizzy — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 17:38:19 +0000

People talk about sexual chemistry, or how good the person is so therefore they need to do it to find out. Let’s not fool ourselves, anybody can have sex. Animals have sex, there is nothing complicated about it. There is no such thing as incompatible unless you are having sex with another animal.
When you have deeper feelings for someone the sex will ultimately be good. Communication is the key and what may not be good the first time around will be better the second time.

By: Lia

Lia — Mon, 31 Dec 2012 02:57:08 +0000

@ Karmic Equation

Wow, I can see I’m late to the party but what a great discussion! I really loved your contributions. You and I are so very different in the way we do the whole men/ sex/ relationship thing and I am fascinated by your perspective and the way you go about it all. Reading such a different perspective was truly delightful and thought provoking.

It has given me a lot to think about. I am going to have to go back and read your posts again.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 04:36:29 +0000

@Karmic Equation #195:

We totally agree : )

By: Karmic Equation

Karmic Equation — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:04:10 +0000

@Fusee 194

We’re actually not as far apart as first thought.

I agree with you that the GOAL of dating is to obtain the relationship you’re looking for (marriage, other LTR, fling, whatever)…But I still think that the APPROACH to dating is to make a friend — not to actually KEEP the person as a friend, BTW, unless you want to.

It’s always a lot easier for me to get my point across with an example, so please bear with me while I try to explain…

I was a late bloomer, didn’t have my first “real” kiss until I was 18; no dates (and virginal) until 19, which is ancient by today’s standards! I remember after I started dating but before I lost my virginity…every date I went on, I was thinking is this the guy, will I someday have sex with this one, how will it feel, is tonight the night, etc. Basically because I was so obsessed with my virginity and when I would lose it, that I did not pay attention to my date as a person. Did I like him? Was he fun to be around? Was he a gentleman? I was so in my own head, I didn’t have time to really get to know if the guy I was on a date with was a good person, e.g., someone who could be a good friend…because I think we can agree that the person we end up married to should be a good friend to us and a good person in general.

AFTER I lost my viriginity, I paid attention to my dates the right way. I dated men and talked to them like my friend (not close friend, but friend) — I asked questions (not where do you live, what do you do, etc.) but things like, What did you do today? Did you have fun doing that? What did you find the most fun? Was that stressful, etc…And in doing that, I got to know my date as a person. This is what I meant by approaching dating to make a friend. Not to actually make a friend, but to make sure that there is no strange agenda in the back of your mind to keep you from seeing your date for who he is, which allows you to more clearly assess how *you* feel about the date and the guy.

If there is attraction, then there would be flirtation…it’s natural. The conversations get slightly more personal (in a good way), in addition to the friendship questions/conversation. If there is no attraction then no flirtation. And as women and great conversationalists that we are, we can steer the no attraction conversations such that we know that they won’t ask for a 2nd date. If we like the guy, we keep it friendly and flirtatious (in a good way)…and hope our conversation and what we shared and how we shared it in that conversation would elicit a another date. Then each date we show more of who we are and get the guy to be more of who he is…and you go from their to your relationshp GOALS.

Sorry for the long post. I don’t know how to get this nuance across any other way.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:56:22 +0000

@Karmic Equation #193:

I would also be fine to agree to disagree with you, but I do not disagree one bit with you on how a friendhsip must be the foundation of a healthy relationship. I still remember all the discussions I had last summer with my then-new boyfriend about how I needed to get to know him well and see if we could develop a real trust-based and appreciation-based friendship before progressing physically. There was no sex during that foundation-building phase, and not until we knew we completely trusted one another, cared about one another, knew we were compatible in life goals, values, and lifestyles. See, I agree 100% with you!

What I had a disagreement with was the concept of approaching dating with the idea of making new friends, as if I would be pretending to myself that I would not be really looking at the end goal of building a life-long relationship, or as if I would keep hanging out with men I had already realized were not compatible with my long-term goals. Sure an unexpected friendship could develop, but to my opinion, this should not be the GOAL of dating. The goal should be whatever you want with a partner and from the get go, working on assessing whether this person has the same goal and whether or not you would make a good team to fulfill that goal.

I think that women are too afraid of rejection/rejecting and end up trying to keep in touch with too many men that they have no business being in touch with. An unexpected true and solid friendship, why not? But keeping men around that are hoping for easy sex or an ego stroke while they chat about their new dates, not really. Most men do not become “friends” with women just to have tea and a good chat. Especially if there is no past context beside a few dates that got nowhere. As SS was writing @192, I think these “friendships” makes women waste their precious relationship energies on dead-ends.

Since dating is about finding a partner, I prefer keeping my personal long-term goal in mind while I try to develop the friendship-based foundation. But I do not start with the goal of building a friendship or pretend to the guy that I’m fine with a friendship as it would be the best way for me to become derailled and end up talking myself into accepting lower standards. I need less for a friendship than for a boyfriend. And I need less for a boyfriend than for a husband. If I start with the word husband in mind, I can let go faster of men who are only “friendship material”. And I let them GO because I have no energy for those unnecessary friendships, knowing full well how much energy it indeed takes to build the necessary friendship-based foundation for my goal of a solid and happy marriage.

By: Karmic Equation

Karmic Equation — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:53:04 +0000

@Fusee 191
I already have a circle of loyal and healthy female friends. I do not need more “friendships” consisting of old dates or men looking for an ego stroke. If dating does not yield what I’m looking for, I say: “goodbye and have a good life”, and shout: “NEXT!”

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Partnerships should be built on a foundation of friendship, not on a foundation of “we both have to want to get married.” That is a GOAL not a foundation. You can weed out the men who don’t have your goals while learning if they are good people that you could be friends with. Frankly, I’m no longer in touch with my anyone I’ve had sex with (except ex-hubby with whom I’m still friends), BUT I am still friends with many men whom I’ve dated but did not have sex with.

If you build your relationship-foundation the right way, you’ll probably get your marriage, if that’s what you’re both looking for. If you build your realtionship-foundation the wrong way (i.e., without friendship as a basis), you’ll eventually end up driving the men away with your ticking biological clock/desperation/neediness/don’t want to be aloneness/whatever.

So I guess the better way to restate my position and yours is “Don’t have a relationship OR sex with a man until you have a friendship AND you both share the same goal, if you don’t want them to disappear on you.”

This post is a great summary of what we are both proscribing: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/06/know-why-you-are-dating.html

Legend “you” = generic you (all people reading this) – not you in particular, Fusee.

By: SS

SS — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:37:37 +0000

I agree Fusee @191. While I agree with Karmic that it’s not good to hope for an LTR when going on a date, I had no interest in trying to make these guys friends either. I went into a date with a new guy with no expectations really… just that it was a date. Maybe it would lead to a second date, maybe not.

I had plenty of guy friends and certainly wasn’t searching for any more. If a date happened to turn into a friend, that was fine, but my mindset was more one of the idea that if things didn’t work out with a particular date, that was it for that guy and on to the next one.

Everyone isn’t meant to be a friend. Approaching dating with that mindset seems to cheapen the idea of friendship, really. And yes, I’ve seen too many women who do eventually want a solid LTR or marriage keep too many of these guy “friends” around — so much so that it prevents them from actually focusing on what they really want.

By: Fusee

Fusee — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:45:32 +0000

@Karmic Equation #188:

“I think that going into a date hoping that a guy (or girl) will turn into an LTR be “the one” is really a high expectation to have for someone you don’t know.”

I agree. Best to approach it with openess and curiosity instead of desperation and bitterness.

“If you date with the hope of making a friend, you won’t be disappointed if the friendship doesn’t work out. The worse you can do is wind up with a friendly acquaintance who fades.”

I disagree. Dating is not about “making friends”. Dating is about looking for a partner, either casual or serious, but more than “just a friend”. A serious reason why people struggle in dating is because they do not clearly define their goals. They do not know what they want, and even if they do, they end up settling on a “friendship”, on a sexual fling, or even on a dead-end LTR. If you want to build a solid and happy relationship that will progress towards a solid and happy marriage, you must start with this mindset, and weed out people who are not on the same page.

I already have a circle of loyal and healthy female friends. I do not need more “friendships” consisting of old dates or men looking for an ego stroke. If dating does not yield what I’m looking for, I say: “goodbye and have a good life”, and shout: “NEXT!”

By: Fusee

Fusee — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:35:14 +0000

Mia #189: “At the same time, I think the only instance when meeting irl is better than online is if you had friends or colleagues in common. If you randomly meet someone at a bar or the grocery store, that to me is no advantage over meeting through a dating site because you have no outside connections.”

Although I have no experience with online dating, I disagree with your opinion, Mia. A meeting through online dating will have involved clicking on boxes, and therefore from the get-go selecting someone based on very superfical traits and treating the process like an Amazon shopping experience. That’s why friendships would be so hard to develop from such “market-based” strategy. You do not consider people the same way you do when you meet them in a real situation.

In real life, a meeting happens organically, and even if everyone has “tick boxes” in the back of their mind, they will feel attracted to people regardless of those. And even if they try to stick to their online criteria, in real life meetings they will not really know for sure before having experienced the critical naive/unbiaised first impression that you can’t experience if you have read their online data. To take an easy example, I’m 33, and online I would be 33. But in reality I look 25 and therefore attract (and end up interesting) peple whose dating profile might set the limit at 30. (yes, really, no delusion here, I really look that much younger, and it’s actually a problem because I tend to attract men who are too young for my relationship goals). My boyfriend is 34 and was quite shocked to realize on our first date that I was over 30. That’s one thing that for me would be an advantage to date online: I would attract older men. But older women who look younger (a 38 yo looking like a 33 yo) would benefit from organic in real life meetings. And that’s only talking about age. I could go on and on on how much you could make someone instantly feel great around you in real life, someone who would never have “selected” you through tick boxes…

On the location now. Although people going to bars to pick up women will heavily overlap with people picking up women online (same kind of “market-based” intention), it is still going to involve other hard-to-explain criteria, even in the absence of connexion to people you have in common. Now, to my opinion, the best is to meet people in other real-life places than bars. Bars are simply the worst location to meet relationship-minded men.

I will stop my ramblings in favor of real-life meetings for now, before I completely aggravate Evan : )