Is There Any Point in Dating an Alpha Male?
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Hi Evan, This is a curiosity more than a dating advice question. I’ve read several of your posts that suggest that charismatic alpha males do not make good partners. I also read on HuffingtonPost.com a hilariously titled article (in response to the Anthony Weiner scandal), “Should Women Go Ugly?” again, suggesting that women should steer clear of handsome alpha types who are quite likely to ultimately let them down. So my question is, what happens to all these alpha guys? Do they marry? Will they remain single forever? If the conventional wisdom is for women to avoid relationships with them, is it in their (the alpha guys) best interest to skip the so-called American dream, avoid marriage and children and just bounce from one short-term relationship to another? Or is it possible for such an alpha guy to create a meaningful long-term relationship? And if so, what type of woman would be able to create a happy life with a man like this? Based on your advice and that of others I’ve read, it seems that no woman should attempt to deal with these guys. –Sara
Sara,
Right before I got married, I turned for advice to Dr. Pat Allen, therapist, Los Angeles legend, and author of “Getting to I Do”.
Pat is probably 75 years old and delightfully curmudgeonly. She lives in a very black and white world and has a bunch of catchy aphorisms that she trots out when she sees common dating dynamics – especially for women with an excess of masculine energy. I turned to her because we’d met on a panel once before and because I respected her experience and wisdom.
I told her that I wasn’t sure that I felt what I was supposed to feel for the woman who I was considering proposing to. I didn’t have that obsessive, breathless, “I must have you” sentiment. I didn’t miss her madly when she went on a business trip. I was just plain happy – in a healthy, fun, nurturing, supportive relationship that had no obvious flaws apart from what was buzzing through my head: “I don’t have the FEELING I think I should have!”
My thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets.
Pat asked me: “Are you a career man or a man with a career?” (This is one of those aphorisms.) I told her that my career was not just a job, but kind of a calling. Thus, she determined that I was a career man. She told me that, as a career man, since my job would come first, I could get married and be perfectly content, but I’d always be longing for more. She finally concluded that, based on my profile, I would probably cheat on my wife a few times.
And that was our session.
Yes, Dr. Allen’s contention, essentially, was that if you’re an alpha male, your natural tendency is to put your needs first, to conquer, to dominate, to spread your seed, and to hope to not break too many hearts along the way. In this regard, she’s somewhat correct.
And in this regard, I realized, I’m not a pure alpha male.
It’s more important to me to be a good husband and father than it is to pursue my selfish interests at all costs. If anything, I have a fierce ethical streak (which surfaces here from time to time) which is stronger than my thirst for money or new women. I would not suppose that everyone is similarly driven by doing the right thing. After all, having character involves tradeoffs, and alpha males most certainly don’t want limits put on their freedoms.
So, to bring this back to you, Sara, my thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets. I would guess that most women who’ve gone for them would concur with this observation. Alphas needs come first. Their schedule comes first. They may try to spend money on you but it doesn’t compensate for their lack of attention, affection and understanding. They rarely make you feel safe and secure. But you hold on because he’s such an intoxicating catch. Make no mistake, he RELIES on his charms to allow you put up with all his bullshit.
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76 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Hadley Paige 1
Marrying an alpha male is essentially a monetary play for a woman. For at least a while they get big time care, shelter and lifestyle for themselves and their children. If it works out- fine. If it doesn’t work out they are “out of there” which means they get big $$$ which allow them to conduct the rest of their life as they like. No down side except perhaps some short term stress (join the club). A woman may not want to do it more than once though.
Bottom Line> Alpha males are still a major catch even if they are ultimately unsatisfying relationshipwise.
my honest answer 2
I agree with Evan – their very nature does make them more likely to cheat. But it also makes them kind of attractive, because you think you’re the ONE to change them.
That only ends in tears.
If you’re happy to come second to someone’s job (and some people are), then go for it. If you know you need a lot of attention and affection from a relationship, I’d skip the obvious workaholics.
Steve 3
I’m not an expert and I don’t play one on TV, but the descriptions of “The Alpha Male” are starting to sound like a bad case the narcissism neurosis epidemic psychologists say is going around in the current generation of adults.
AQ 4
Evan, I think you need to define Alpha Male – there are many types – many shades of gray. I think you must mean one that is a CEO – he is at the top because he was narcissistic and screwed a lot of people to win along the way – he is good looking, athletic and overly confident. But there are many men who are successful who put their families first. Then there are ones who are less confident with no ambition.
Joe 5
@ my honest answer #2: I have a problem with saying you shouldn’t come second to someone’s job, whether you’re a man or a woman. I think there needs to be a balance between the two–there are times where your relationship is more important than work, but there are times when work is more important than your relationship. If you lose your job, it’s only going to put more pressure on your relationship.
Teri 6
Evan,
I have had 2 “long-term” relationships with Alpha males. While I am obviously attracted to that type of man. I am trying to get out of that way of thinking and dating men that put me first. My problem is that the chemistry is just not there for me. I am dating a man now that is head over heals in love with me and I am going to talk to him tonight and tell him that I just can’t see him anymore. How do I get out of this way of thinking? I want to have a long term relationship with a good man.
Helen 7
While I very much agree with the importance of considering family in a relationship, I disagree with equating “alpha male” to “career man.” I think that in women’s minds, they’re completely different things.
Historically (it’s somewhat less relevant today), a woman would consider a male alpha if he is able to provide the resources she needs for successful reproduction, and then further on Maslow’s hierarchy, her personal needs such as affection, attention, affirmation, etc. One does not need to be a career man in order to provide these things. Evan, you say that you’re not fully an alpha, but in your wife’s mind, you would be as long as you met her needs and she felt secure in your continually being able to provide them.
Career men include artists and musicians and writers who don’t make much (if any) money, but are completely obsessed with their pursuits. That doesn’t make them alphas, necessarily, in the minds of women, unless specific women got gratification out of being with someone who had a plethora of those particular talents.
Also Evan, it does not make you “not an alpha” that you quit work at 6 and don’t work on weekends. It means that you have a good sense of boundaries. Then there are those of us who feel as though we didn’t finish everything we wanted to during the weekdays, so it spills over into the weekends, and sends us into a spiral of guilt that we’re not devoting the right time to the right people… It makes us guilt-ridden fools, not alphas, I can tell you that much.
Ileana 8
<Does he WANT to be a good husband and father?>.
Evan, i dont’t think that WANTING is of any importance here. Don’t you think that maybe there are guys out there who claim to want this, but actually do not put any effort in doing something about it?
And, how can you actually tell if he HAS good husband/father potential? You cant just ask him….
Alicia 9
An alpha (in my opinion) is a man or woman who has virtually everything but is still not satisfied (this basically encompasses CEOs, some military officers, celebrities, and the like).
I was just broken up with on Thursday by an alpha who completely changed his personality when he started his career months ago. I saw the breakup coming but I couldn’t leave him (even though I’m almost sure he was cheating on me).
He told me that I’m always first in his life and he couldn’t wait for our wedding day and the birth of our children. This proves that people will say all kinds of things to secure themselves from loneliness. In that regard, I disagree with Evan. Just saying a person wants to be an amazing mate or model parent doesn’t always mean they are willing to help themselves achieve their goals.
Jennifer 10
So I found a definition of alpha, because it bugs me how much we throw it around here and everyone seems to mean different things by it. According to dictionary.com, an Alpha Male is:
The dominant male animal or person in a group.
I think it’s easy to forget that this term is defined by it’s relativity to a larger group. No man is, or can be, dominant in every realm.
Dominance does not go hand in hand with things like compromise and a lot of other traits we think of when we think of a loving relationship. Neither does it automatically equal all of the negative traits that we tend to assign to it either.
Evan Marc Katz 11
Thanks, Jennifer. How does that change or negate what I wrote though?
Jennifer 12
@Evan- I’m not trying to negate what you wrote. Just trying to put a frame around ‘Alpha Male’ since folks seem to throw all sorts of meanings to it that just aren’t there, and then draw conclusions that are less than valid. You know how comments tend to meander
Sharon 13
Everyone has a slightly different idea of what alpha male is. Growing up in area that produce steel I’ve always considered blue collared jobs “working with your hands” more masculine than white collar jobs. Thus I can understand when Evan is talking about that high earning pretty boy business tycoon alpha as someone as confident in what they do. And certainly they’re are proud peacock alphas, as anyone who’s a dated a musician knows, that don’t make a dime. So currently my list of careers at high risk for alpha behaviors are as followed:
Cops
Musicians (particular current music but if he’s a carnegie hall ready classist you still need to watch your back.)
Actors
Fireman
Military Personnel
Doctors
College Professors
Stock brokers
Hedge Fund Managers
(Ok anything financial save perhaps accounting)
Construction Workers
Surgeons
Models
Personal Trainers
Graphic Designers (for some reason video game designers are less douchey)
Executive anything non profit to advertising
Politicians
Business Owners
Athletes ..ALL
Elite anything, astrophysicists, economist, reporter ect.
Bartenders
Chefs
Writers
High End Real Estate
Lawyers
Diplomats
I’m sure there are more. Generally speaking middle management engineers, IT specialist, grade school teachers. Copy editors bank managers, retail managers. legal assistants. To be alpha you just have to be the top guy in your social circle. So women looking for a nice beta should aim straight to the middle of the pack for the guy most likely to stay there.
Sara 14
I submitted the original question above. Thank you for answering it Evan. After a good deal of thought, one theory I have is that there will always be a percentage of women (small I hope, though perhaps more common in my mother’s generation), who have a clear-eyed understanding of the realities of being with a so-called alpha male. They understand what the trade-offs are and they fully accept them. If they suspect their husband is having an affair, they turn a blind eye. If they don’t always get the attention they want from their husband, they seek that out from women friends or perhaps a lover of their own. They often have an affluent life-style (nice house, cars, clothing, travel, botox, you name it!), and they have no intention of giving that up, so they view their alpha’s “indiscretions” as part of the package. (Kind of a “boys will be boys” attitude, which is antiquated yes, but my guess is that it still persists to a degree). Not a great recipe for a close intimate relationship, but it is a trade-off that the women themselves are choosing. The key word here is Choice.
Carrie 15
I think Steve is going in the right direction here. Alpha Male is a good term to use but, narcissism is right on track. All walks of life with money or without..can act like an alpa male. Career or no career can act like an alpha male. I seem to equate Alpa with abusive for some reason. Narcissists are the snotty career people who think they are a gift to us from God. Why wouldn’t anyone want me, I mean, I want me!!! hahahha is their motto! I was married to one…I know the personality well. People regardless of status, with or without money, college education or no college education can be controlling, egotistical, narcissistic and alpha male prone. Just approach with your eyes wide open and read it like it is not what it could be…
XO Carrie
Peter 16
If an Alpha male is an economically and socially successful leader of men (this definition includes overachieving women!) then I have no comment. If an Alpha male is a man who has sex with a lot of women (the two versions probably overlap a great deal) then consider this.
In 1996 the Centre for Disease Control surveyed US college students for risky behaviours. It was a large survey and because most of the questions were about things like motorbike riding it is considered that the answers about sex were relatively truthful. I will discuss the results for white students. There were results for under 25 and over 25.
The average (mean) number of lifetime sexual partners was 9. About half of students had no more than two partners. So most people were virgins or had one or two partners. These people were not considered at risk of health problems. The second biggest group were people with a lifetime total of 3,4 or 5 lifetime sex partners. They were at some risk of disease. They were about a quarter of the total.
The average of nine sexual partners was generated by the heros and heroines who crossed the dangerously promiscuous line of 6 or more lifetime sex parners which made some form of STD, often undectectable HPV more or less inevitable. This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).
What happens after 25? Very little. For the three quarters of the population that did not indulge in high risk numbers of partners the partner count remained almost unchanged. This implies that most college people find themselves a lifetime partner by 25 even if they do not marry immediately. The promiscuous quarter of “so called Alphas” and ***** continued to do the rounds of each other. Basically the Alpha male who is dangerously attractive to all women does not exist. He is dangerously attractive to promiscuous women.
This was an American survey so attention to the racial dimension was of course given. Hispanics were more sexually active than whites in the younger age group. Blacks were more sexually active than hispanics. Whether this says anything about race rather than social class of origin is not a subject for this blog.
People who do not attend college are thought to have less ex if they are qualified at something like trade school level and more sex if they are underclass but there are no really good figures to show this.
Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas. The sexually available are a group to themselves. The idea of the sexual Alpha appears to have resulted from enhanced marketing by self help coaches who use to teach men how to become more confident around women or as in the 1960′s (I just remember the ads on the back pages of imported US magazines) how to develop a phrase/”line” guaranteed to pick up women.
Other studies looking at life time figures suggest that the most promiscuous few percent of men get up to 250 partners. The top women get about 650 (access sex is much easier for women). These figures were supposed to exclude commercial prostitution. Divorce post 30 pushes the base line up. with respect to teh median number of partners as well as the mean.
Real Alphas, as in the sense of social leaders, may well be monogamous (Hitler and Stalin were not known to be sexually active. Mao and Lenin on the other hand … ). Most CEO’s are probably too damn busy.
However, the ratio of human testes weight to body weight suggests that men are designed to have 1.6 female partners. DNA studies suggest that 80% of women who have ever lived reproduced but only 40% of men. Divorce behaviour suggests that women leave and unsatisfactory man whereas men, unprovoked by legal obligations will add another woman to his relationship. Male infidelity often is not seen as threatening as female infidelity. So some men do better than others even if we are not talking about 250 lifetime partners. Or perhaps some men do worse? Women will simply not tolerate below average?
So where does this leave the 35 plus woman who seems to be Evan’s client? Well, which group do you think the never married men might belong to? A divorced man who met his ex wife before he was 25 might be a better target, even if he is paying child support if you really want a good relationship. Obviously he was under performing in some respect hence the divorce but what is the pont of a successful career if it isn’t to support your relationships.
Sorry Evan. I have rambled on rather a lot.
Antonia 17
So, I gather that an alpha female is not the right match for the alpha male?
Margo 18
The most recent alph male I had the misfortune of coming across was one of the most selfish men I had ever met. His fiance of 10 years left him because he took an unecessary overseas job assignment that took him away from her for over two years! Shortly after we started talking, he went on another overseas assignment. This one was 9 months. THEN he dropped the bomb on me that he was applying for another overseas job that would require him to be out of the states 70% of the time! What an asshole he was/is.
Soul Sister 19
I think we need to be careful of defining all alpha males (and females) as narcissists as it is simply not true. While the propensity for an alpha person to be a narcissist may be higher, they are not necessarily tied together. The most alpha man I know, multi-millionaire, hugely successful both financially and in life, is very far from a narcissist. He does have a huge degree of confidence but he is always kind to everyone…his wife, his children, the waiter. Yes, he works a lot, but he also plays a lot with those he loves. A true alpha person is so centered and self confident, they do not need to project control, unkindness, or any other negative traits on others because they can just BE. The alpha dog in the pack will fight if he has to, but typically he just IS, so one look or his mere presence is enough to maintain dominance. He doesn’t walk around biting other dogs just for the fun of it. That would be the alpha wanna-be! I think where alphas get their bad name are people who want to be alpha, or think they are, but are really just insecure and dysfunctional. Therefore they display this dominance as sort of a cover, not a true hierarchy in the group. My experience with bad alphas was that they were more assholes pretending to be alphas. Inside they were just dysfunctional, childish, self centered human beings and I feel sorry for them.
I am an alpha female, people rely on me, I am in a high paced demanding career, and I can project dominance when I need to. But I am also a very kind person (after lots of therapy reduced the dysfunction and insecurity!) and my alpha-ness allows me to just be who I am.
So a narcissist will probably be an alpha (or pretend to be one) but an alpha may not be a narcissist. And an asshole is just an asshole, no matter what you call him/her!
And two alphas can have a relationship, but they must be highly functional people with the maturity to temper their excessive traits, both the good and the bad ones. I highly prefer the alpha man, but assholes and narcissists need not apply……
Heather 20
@Jennifer #10
Totally agreed. My ex boyfriend was chronically underemployed but he was very much an alpha male, he had to be in control of conversations, had to make sure I did what he said and follow his lead, and had to deal with his tantrums and problems. Heaven forbid I call him on his bullshit.
Anymore now, I won’t date most alpha male types. To me it equals domineering attitudes and viewpoints, loud, arrogant stances, and the like. Not to mention being put in last place in order to pursue other things, not just a career.
I’m retraining myself to take a good look at the guys who are not so alpha male, and what I am finding is that I am having a much better dating experience. I’m not being bossed around, yelled at, or put in last place. I’m usually treated like a lady and am being treated with respect.
So to all of you “not alpha males” out there, NO, you will NOT finish in last place!!! I’m just sayin.
Jennifer 21
@Margo #18
Was this guy a selfish asshole because of his desire to work overseas, his failure to tell you about it in a timely fashion, or for other reasons?
The working overseas and having a ‘fiance’ for 10 years (I mean, really?) thing just sounds like a guy who is not good at/doesn’t want relationships, but that doesn’t automatically make him an asshole in my book.
Joe 22
@ Sharon #13:
Unfortunately, you can’t paint everyone in those professions with such a broad brush. Think about it: if everyone in those professions was an alpha, nobody would get anything done.
Your army can’t be full of leaders; you need to have followers too.
Sharon 23
@ Joe I didn’t say they all were. I said proceed with caution.
Margo 24
@Jennifer-21, She wasn’t his fiance for 10 years. They were in a 10-year serious live-in relationship for 10 years. She had recently agreed to become his fiance. He said that’s what he wanted. Then against her wishes, he left her for 2 years while he went overseas. That doesn’t make him a jerk to you??
Ruby 25
I’m beginning to feel that this “alpha” term is starting to lose all meaning. I used to think it meant a high-rolling executive/CEO-type pulling down mega-bucks (a tiny minority of the men out there, I might add), now we’re being told that it includes even ambitious starving artists?
I work in one of the professions that Sharon mentioned (#13), and the men I’ve known there are, on the whole, so far from being Alpha types that I had to laugh at its inclusion in her list. And construction workers? Really?
There are narcissists in any profession. Are “alpha males” just self-absorbed workaholics? While we might find confidence and drive attractive, what’s so desirable about the extreme version of that?
Sharon 26
To me alpha is more about a macho attitude than bank account. That typical sexist might is right sort of swagger.
Ruby 27
Sharon #26
Sounds like you are talking about “bad boys.”
I do think most of us are a mix of alpha and beta traits.
Sharon 28
Not exactly. I’m thinking more of that John Wayne Clint Eastwood sort of alpha.
lawyerette 29
For everyone asking if it matters if he “wants” to be a good father and husband – yes, absolutely! You are are confusing the “necessary” and the “sufficient”. Wanting to be a good husband and father is NECESSARY to a man actually being so. That’s different from it being SUFFICIENT to be so. Wanting isn’t enough. But if a guy doesn’t even WANT to be a good husband and dad, then there’s NO way he will be.
Katarina Phang 30
Alpha to me is about degree of masculinity or manliness. Striving artists can be alpha if he matches all the things that show that he’s driven to achieve his goals and are not what beta guys are all about (being okay in a passenger seat while their women take the driver seat).
Trouble 31
My ex-husband, in every capacity would probably be classified as a beta, and yet he was a chronic cheater. On the flip side, I’ve spent my entire career in a male-dominated field with “testosterone overload” (law enforcement), and some of the gentlest, kindest people I’ve ever known are cops (the guys from my unit visited me daily in the hospital maternity ward when I had medical issues during a pregnancy, for instance). I’m marrying a military guy. While he is definitely aggressive about work, he knows how to put the job aside and come home. I don’t think we can generalize so widely about people’s propensity for infidelity. I have noticed with the men that I’ve known who are cheaters (and I’ve known a few, both personally and prfessionally) that these are mostly men who are deeply insecure and need some sort of approbation to pump them up. If you look at someone like Gene Simmons, a chronic philanderer who slept with hundreds or thousands of women, he had major abandonment issues with his father. I think cheating is more complex than the “i am alpha, give me pussy” paradigm.
The average alpha male doesn’t appear to have the deep seated insecurity issues that many chronic cheaters seem to have.
Emily 32
I read an article recently that women are all over Alpha males as of late. That is has to do a lot with TV, and the whole macho guy image. But i like the angle of this. Because at the end of the day, it really is “to each HER own.”
Heather 33
@ Trouble #31,
Not always. Again, my ex boyfriend was very much an alpha male and he had TONS of very deep-seated insecurity issues, constant need to be right, maintaining very close contact with an ex-girlfriend when I made it clear how uncomfortable I was with this, most likely was cheating on me, etc.
It really depends. I am sure there are some beta males who can be real jerks and I have certainly met a few. But my overwhelming experience has been that the alpha males I have been involved with, have been extremely insecure and even abusive, and I’d just rather avoid the issue entirely.
adk 34
To Teri #6:
What you are “attracted” to has little to do with how good a partner they will be. It often has to do with who your parents were and how screwed up you might be. I was always “attracted” to very silent, mysterious and, in the end, unavailable guys. Guess what? My father has never given me his approval.
Once I realized that they type of guy I was always initially attracted to was never going to be there for me or give me what I wanted, I tried to retrain my attraction and be open to people who would give me what I wanted in the end.
And it worked! Married at the ripe old age of 41 to a wonderful guy.
Steve 35
you give good advice. i think it’s more on really being lucky on who you get married to. also, an alpha male for you can be not an alpha male to another. depends on what you like
ashley 36
i personally dont like alpha male . I have a strong personality and everytime i dated a so called ” alpha male “ , we clashed! sex was great , but anything outta bedroom was a disaster! I hated their gut and they hated me even more! to me, they are self -oriented individuals ; that doesnt mean they are bad people, but as Evan said , they certainly dont put YOUR needs first. your education, your job, your nice house , or fancy car,,,, they could care less about it. the ONLY thing they care about is how pretty you are and if you gonna make them and their life your priority. IMO, the only women who can make it happen with alpha male are the ones who dont have any alpha trait in their chromosome.
Laura 37
We want alpha men because we want alpha children. We have to work smarter at relationships with alpha men, they certainly keep us on our toes! We don’t always come first with them, but we’re expected to be available to them when they want us. As long as you’re not a stick-in-the-mud and are up for it, you can have the love and adventure of a lifetime! It ends when you don’t want to climb over the next mountain with him.
The true alpha males I know are far from abusive and controlling. Those are the traits of weak men. Alphas like to hide their sensitivities and vulnerabilities, but they do not need to overcompensate for their lack of character with power trips. If an alpha male chooses YOU to be his mate, it’s because he trusts you and has confidence in you.
Mike 38
I think every seems to forget is that the only version of ‘alpha’ that the manosphere adheres to is not what you personally think personifies an ‘alpha’.. but is only based on the sexual choices of women. ie. those men who have women tripping over themselves to sleep with him are alpha whether you like him or not.
you can wax poetic over what traits you find desirable in a man, but the proof is in the pudding more often than not that women continue to seek sexual relationships with men who display ‘game’ attributes and keep beta men on the side as last resorts when nature timeclock goes boom.
a true alpha knows he’s an alpha. a pua behaves like one, yet yields similar results. everyone else on the sidelines is beta to zeta.
Ladybug 39
That’s an interesting point of view, Mike. As a dedicated people watcher and wildlife observer, I see it differently.
The majority of women go after the Flash, the Players, the Decoys totally missing the true Alpha Males. They may be testosterone driven, but they are not alphas. These men lead all the lesser women away from the true alpha males, who will be sitting back watching it all with big grins on their faces.
You can spot the true Alpha Males by observing how other men behave, respond and interact with them.
Mike 40
@Ladybug
Not discounting your hypothesis, but then you are saying that at the end of the night the true alpha’s after having witnessed the PUA’s take the ‘dregs’ of society they simply finish their conversations with the women that are left and go home to self service themselves?
Again, definition of alpha is a man who is at the top of the sexual social pecking order of women. The manosphere definition still stands unchallenged because the women have still chosen either the ‘true’ alpha to go home with, or the Roosh’s, Tucker Max’s, and other game players/pua’s.
Again so we are clear, ALPHA = sexually active/dominant. Beta to Zeta = going home to Palmina. You can say someone like Tucker Max is hideous, vile, has no alpha features or characteristics, but he has certainly created a very high female body count on his bedpost. Since he has zero problems getting laid and has women beating each other with sticks to try and bed him… he in the eyes of the manosphere and Game theory is an alpha only due in how women sexually choose to interact with him, not what men or women think of him personally. Real alpha’s also have no issue getting sex whenever they choose, they just probably have a better class and selection of women to go home with.
Ladybug 41
The real alpha males did not arrive with the pack. They arrived later. They was busy with payroll so Tucker Max and the Boys have money to blow on the girls with no self control. They were securing the business for the weekend. Business before pleasure for the true alphas, and they aren’t going to miss out on quality women. To the untrained eye, they may appear to be a completely separate pack of males, but careful observation will show the subtle interaction and deference.
Yeah, in manosphere and gaming, he who gets laid the most is alpha. He who gets laid the most is the player with the biggest bag of tricks. That’s coyote, not alpha.
Alpha traits are intelligence, power, and control. There are physiological components to alpha status, too. I’ll not get into that here.
Mike 42
All well and good. But for all the beta’s to zeta’s watching, who do you think they are going to emulate if they’re constantly going home alone?
There will be a slew of ‘Where have all the good men gone’ books in the coming years, begging men to ‘man up’… but if women keep rewarding the wrong men, and ignoring the good guys on the sidelines, they’re either going to leave the game all together, or learn GAME and exact a toll later on. Ignore them in their 20′s, they’ll ignore you in your 30′s.
The current environment can only be corrected by women since it is their sexual pre-selection that is the driving force behind the marketplace. You’ve always been the gatekeepers and men adapt to the times. Always have, always will.
Ladybug 43
I just entered the dating world this last year after being out for 20 some years. My question, Who neutered the men? I am finding good men, but they’re Old School and not online. I go to where the men are.
Who do you emulate? Where are the dads to teach men how to be a man? Why not be yourself? Embrace your awesomeness! What kind of women are you looking for? Stupid drama queens who lack self control? Then emulate the players. Buck-toothed bimbos with no brains? Buy a Corvette.
I don’t know your age or what area the country you live or if you’re metro or rural. I have two young adult daughters that are not married. They are smart, successful beautiful women. Both have given up on dating jock types. The eldest is dating a friend from high school, a dweebish medical examiner. The 22 year old is in California and gave up on dating white boys there because they won’t treat her right. Her bf of 2 years is a Salvadoran welder who treats her like a precious treasure. He totally respects her and is a very nice young man. I have 1 daughter left in high school, she is autistic. She hangs with the jocks and they are protective of her.
So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth.
We aren’t into games, lines or bullshit. If you show disrespect, a negative attitude or whine, you’ll get a smackdown, laughed at or worse, you’ll get IGNORED. (or look that will freeze your liver)
I have no idea what dumb women are looking for besides getting played and layed.
Saint Stephen 44
@Ladybug
Wow! Excellent post. *Clapping*
Ladybug 45
So Mike, take your eyes off the players and the silly women who flock on them, shift your thinking from instant gratification to a relationship. Dump your negative thinking and go to your happy place.
When you are out on your woman hunting trip be observant and emulate the true alpha male, even if you’re not one. Show confidence in yourself. Again, ignore the players and their silly women.
Do you see the nice looking women who are NOT flocking on the players? There should be at least 1 or 2 of them if not more, and they appear to be alone. She also appears to be ignoring ALL the men. She’s not. She’s waiting for alphas. Observe to see what she does. Does a man come back to her? Does she move positions? Observe several at once. Choose your target, circle and approach.
Be a gentleman. Be intelligent. Be positive. Smile, and not like a fool, either. No cheesy tired pick-up lines, no sexual references. Say something intelligent that needs a response. Introduce yourself and ask her name then join her. Don’t ask permission, you’re an alpha. Offer her something. Ask questions to learn more about her, likes, hobbies. Don’t blabber about yourself except commonalities. Keep the time flowing by asking if she would like to do something else besides what you’re doing right then. If you’re sitting, would she like to walk, if standing, go sit, noisy, find a quiet spot. Be a gentleman.
At the end of your time together is when you ask if she will go out with you and ask for her phone number. Nail a date and activity down and don’t be wishywashy know what you want to do. Have plan A and B ready to pull out of your pocket, and you WILL call her to chat within 2 days.
Russian bride 46
Thanks Evan for sharing this because i really don’t know about alpha man.
Mike 47
@ Ladybug.
I like everything you say and am glad to see it being said.
However this is the one conundrum facing most men in the dating world today… especially the younger more impressionable men, not the 35+ that have survived the battlefield.
“So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth. ”
That’s what we’ve all been led to believe and told throughout the ages, but even if you can say with absolute certainty this applies to you and your family, it is the experience of scores of men that what women say they want is not what they actually want. The Roosh’s and Tucker Max’s of the world would have no success if this formula was the golden rule. But it isn’t, and time and again many decent guys get to watch the girl they’re interested in go home with the asshat.
And it’s not all just dumb or silly women, there are many educated, well to do women that are just caving into their carnal instincts for these gamers, and guys are observant if anything and will extrapolate that if x gets y easily, why bother doing z?
That’s all i’m saying.
justme 48
I don’t even know who the Roosh’s and Tucker’s Max are.
I can say with absolute certainty that Ladybug’s comment apply to me. And Mike, I feel that many men don’t look deeper than the surface with looking at women (the crazy hot chick). I’m not a head turner but I think I’m pretty cute. But I’m laid back, easy going, supportive. the very things guys say they want. . . . and yet.
Mike 49
Google > Roosh V
Google > Tucker Max
Read what they think of women. Read how they treat women. Read about how easy they get women to drop their panties. All types, all stripes, no discrimination, good girls, bad girls, virgins, sluts, etc… they can game them all.
So if women give it up to them without batting an eyelash, why would a sane man believe that playing ‘nice’ will win the day, especially when they’ve been rejected for playing nice and watch the woman then proceed into the bed of an asshat. Monkey see, monkey do.
There are men that don’t look beneath the surface it’s true. You’ll find most of these guys at the bars and clubs. The ones you overlook, during daily life, the ones that don’t stick out because they’re not loud obnoxious alphas, are the ones that do look beneath the surface. Stop going to bars and start striking up a convo with a guy at the supermarket.
I don’t know what you look like JustMe but if you send me a pic
ill give you an honest assessment. But if you look at the following image, hands down you will find most men will choose cute over hot/sexy, ESPECIALLY if the guy is looking for good quality characters. The sexy/hot one, sure she’ll turn heads, but all a guy will want is to try her in bed and not much else. That’s my own generalization.. YMMV. So check the pic and see if you compare somewhat.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_va_3QxvzT28/TLRahLN5e9I/AAAAAAAAACM/f_YO6sjt_3M/s1600/sexy+vs+cute.JPG
Zaq 50
Totally agree with Mike
And this alpha thing is useless unless it is clearly defined. In nature you would expect an alpha to be leading the pack. Therefore a man OTHER men look up to.
I once went to a speed date event. A guy comes in wearing jeans, unbuttoned lumber jack type shirt and a very loose black tie. Think clown. He is however fairly attractive. He proceeds to stick his name tag on his ass.
Cue arrogant swagger as a finishing touch.
The guy I’m standing next to says “what a complete XXXX”. Yes I say, but this is the sort of guy the women are going to go for.
There were plenty of educated, experienced, sensible women at the event. They all went for the guy with his name on his ass. He was very successful.
So what are relationship oriented guys supposed to learn from this Ladybug ?
Fenix 51
My first BF was a beta and the most wonderful man I’ve ever met. Kind, faithful, smart, fun, committed. He was crazy about me and I loved him too. He didn’t have the macho attitude and therefore, he couldn’t stand up to his boss and ask for a raise when he had been working in the company for 10 years. He couldn’t stand up to his own mom and tell her to get off his back. He had been in college for 10 years b/c he lacked the drive to work and study and do everything. He was depressed b/c his work, his studies, and his family wasn’t what he wanted and he didn’t know how, or couldn’t change anything. I tried my best to be supportive but after 9 years of this I just left, I couldn’t take it anymore.
My second BF was an alpha. He wasn’t depressed, he had a job he loved, he had the drive to do everything he wanted. He came strongly after me and we dated for 4 years and half. He claimed he wanted a wife for the rest of his life, and asked me if I would live with him and have babies. He was never so attentive as the beta. He loved me in a colder and more distant way, but he had his moments of sweetness. I preferred this relationship. He was the leader and I like that. Until commitment turned sort of unavoidable and he ended up dumping me arguing that he just “didn’t love me like he used to”. As far as I know he didn’t cheat on me.
So what I learned is that both types have pros and cons. The alpha broke my heart so badly and coldly that the whole relationship seems like a big lie now. I don’t want another like him. But beta males just make me feel like I am the most driven, focused and strongest in the relationship and I don’t like feeling like a man or feeling like I have a son instead of a couple. I am currently single and I don’t know what I’m going to do.
DinaStrange 52
Okay, my two cents. Alpha males are just exciting because you get drawn into their lives and think that your conquered someone challenging. In my opinion, most of alphas were very insecure and once the initial “love” wears off you see undercover a scared, insecure boy with lots of emotional issues stemming from his childhood. I try not to date alphas anymore because i put myself first and i expect a man to put my needs on the same page as his…not behind everything else. If alpha changes for me, i’ll give him a go, if not good riddance.
Paragon 53
@ Mike
Too many Game concepts in derive from spurious observations and cargo-culting phenomenon.
Game is largely a myth – a popular fiction synthesized to embellish male success with a basis in real quantities of evolutionary value(like physical attractiveness – which is the only remaining determinant quantity of evolutionary value, when long term mating benefits are taken out of the equation).
The quest for a practically learned skill that can ‘bend’ female choice is a fools errand, because in order for evolution to work opportunistically, it must cull (in particular)male frequencies every generation.
My issue is not with ‘game’ per se, but that it should not be seen to represent a trivially reproducible skill, that can be naively disentangled from its dependencies.
Thus, many observations that seemingly confirm ‘game’, are observing nothing more than spurious correlations.
For example, a key premise of game relies upon ‘confidence’.
By any meaningful definition, confidence is not an a priori quantity – it cannot be disentangled from it’s dependencies, so confidence exists only so far as to say something about these other variables.
Thus, when one observes confidence correlated with a given outcome, it can only speak to a dependency.
It doesn’t just spontaneously organize within an empirical vacuum, and thus cannot be trivially acquired outside of ‘experience’.
So, what gamers(and their apologists) are truly observing (but not intelligent enough to infer), is not that women are attracted to ‘confidence’ per se(as an independent variable).
But, rather that the men who tend to be successful with women(ie. for whatever reasons justify females to signal their receptivity), also have a high confidence(justified expectation) of future(continued) success.
Still, many have observed a palpable female tendency to preferentially mate with abusive, and promiscuous male delinquents.
This tendency is real because it has been biased by evolutionary success(and is thus adaptive in the near evolutionary frame)
Let me explain.
The strategic optima of genetic benefits(indicated in physical attractiveness) is short-term mating, and thus anything that expedites short-term mating traffic(netting males higher fitness gains, and thus an evolutionary advantage) is likewise advantageous.
It then follows that genetically attractive males should evolve strategies that expedite this kind of traffic(frequently indicated in abuse, delinquency, and promiscuity), as documented in the study: “Good genes, mating effort, and delinquency”
(Martin L. Lalumièrea and Vernon L. Quinseyb
a Forensic Program, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, 250
College Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 1R8;b Department of Psychology, Queen’s University at Kingston, Humphrey Hall, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6.)
Thus, evolutionary success will tend to correlate male physical attractiveness with abusive, delinquent, and promiscuous tendencies(and will limit deviations accordingly).
So, when we observe that females privilege such males, it is not that females find these traits attractive per se, but rather that they are selecting for certain desirable traits that have become correlated with negative ones – this is their dilemma.
In fact, females will be under evolutionary pressure to accomodate such males, as male offspring will tend to share the same inherent advantages as their fathers, resulting in high-fitness male offspring for the mothers(and thus a likewise evolutionary advantage).
Females who tend to reject such males will be at a relative disadvantage(producing less prolific offspring), and thus evolution will tend to limit the frequency of such females over time to the point of rarity.
To summarize, there are evolutionary reasons why female choices tend in the opposite direction from ‘nice guys’(females who privilege ‘nice guys’ – by the conventional meaning of the term – incur an evolutionary disadvantage for the increased prospect of breeding fitness-handicapped sons – thus evolution will limit the frequency of such outcomes accordingly).
@ Zaq
It would appear that the whole ’Alpha-male’ meme no longer describes status interactions within prevailing human societies.
This is because, in large organized populations(as opposed to small ‘troops’), network reciprocity marginalizes the influence of dominant males through the net ‘inclusive fitness’ contributions of status inferiors.
In small ‘in-groups’(ie. typical of early hominid ‘troops’), there is a strong quid-pro-quo dynamic that facilitates status concessions in favor of a dominant male(as the success/prosperity of the group is more strongly weighted for individual competencies).
In large co-operative populations, the contributions of any single male becomes increasingly marginal(as do the status concessions in terms of the limiting resource in ecologically prosperous male populations – sex).
The point is that male dominance in small vs. large (co-operative)populations entails subtle, but material differences(ie.
density dependence), with implications for the ethological context which formed the basis of the ‘alpha’ convention.
So, the whole ‘Alpha male’ meme is a spurious concept when applied to human mating practices(in contemporary human societies), where mate access is no longer a function of subordinate status concessions in any obvious way.
Jonathan 54
Hello my name is Jonathan and I study aesthetics.
I really think human relationships are not that complicated. If we see something physically attractive (that shows good genes, biology, etc…) we will lust after him or her, even if we are married.
Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers. These inspirations are good an all, but to be honest we are more animalistic than we like to believe.
All this stuff about alpha behaviors does make a guy more attractive because the behavior shows good genes. (high testosterone)
In reality I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing and then dwelling on it for years and letting it affect their past relationships.
Karl R 55
Jonathan said: (#54)
“Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers.”
Really? On a practical level, most Babylonians, Assyrians and ancient Egyptians practiced monogamous marriages. Some ancient Hebrew sects explicitly stated that monogamy was to be the rule for all marriages.
Jonathan said: (#54)
“I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing”
Do you have a source for claiming that there is 99% failure rate for monogamy, or is that just hyperbole?
Paragon 56
@ Jonathon
“Hello my name is Jonathan and I study aesthetics.
I really think human relationships are not that complicated.”
Hmmm.
“Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers.”
Monogamy is a mating system with an evolutionary basis that has nothing to do with philosophers, French or otherwise.
“All this stuff about alpha behaviors does make a guy more attractive because the behavior shows good genes. (high
testosterone)”
Except when it doesn’t(ie. aggression is also correlated with low T and hypogonadism).
Which is why I’ve always maintained that these ‘alpha’ behaviors tend only to correlate stronger determinants of fitness value.
Paragon 57
@ Peter
“This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).”
“Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual
Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas.”
The problem I have is not so much with the data(which is an anomaly), but with interpreting it in a way that preserves expectations of sexual dimorphism in human mating.
Thus, if we assume that mating distributions are equivalent(despite a burden of contrary indications, following from acute asymmetries in both mate preference and choice), it must be because some population of females are (somehow)monopolizing an equivalent population of choice males.
Since males are known to have both a higher optimal mating rate, and to make qualitative concessions in favor of mate
quantity(in resolving their higher mating rate) – the only agreeable intrepretation I can fathom, is one where equally high value females are making *extraordinary* concessions in order to monopolize high value males.
If so, female sexual conservatism is saying more about their limited access to choice males, than conservative tendencies,
per se(ie. lacking opportunities to mate with high value males, they would rather be abstinent).
In this case, it is the very *awareness* of high value males, that limits female access for lesser males.
So, the popular assumption can still be justified in these terms.
LD 58
Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.
I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?
Paragon 59
@ LD
“Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.
I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?”
First off, I don’t know how you are defining ‘Alpha’ – most sexually successful males I observe are conspicuous failures
aside from mating(ie. think metro-sexual, club-hopping, indigent gym-rats).
Secondly, just because he doesn’t conform to your notions of achievement, doesn’t mean he isn’t ambitious, or driven – he may just hold different goals, or values, that you are failing to appreciate.
Interestingly, I don’t know of ANY man, who holds a prospective mate to exacting standards of achievement.
I, for one, would dismiss any women who held me to such a standard as irredeemably superficial.
Nina 60
Dear Evan,
I personally did not like this post because it generalizes about such a large group of people.
I am married to an alpha male and have been for 10 years and I am extremely happy. Sure, he’s dominant, successful, ambitious, powerful, and confident. However, those qualities also allow him to be fiercely protective of me and our children.
As a typical alpha male, he’s a fantastic provider. But he also views being a good provider as being about more than fiscally providing. Andrew (hubby) views being a truly good provider as providing emotionally and physically as well.
Yes, he make sure that our family has everything we need and we are fortunate enough for him to be able to take me to the opera and out to nice dinners on date nights and to take our children to Europe and to send them to the best schools.
But he also makes sure to provide for us emotionally. He always comes home at night in time for dinner (he believes that family dinners are important) so that he can have dinner with us (although as the alpha male, he definitely brings home a giant pile of work to take care of after they’re in bed and we’re all asleep), ask our children what they learned in school, and help them with their homework. He also makes time each evening to talk to me. He often gets in bed with me, cuddles me, looks into my eyes, and asks me how I am, how I’m feeling, how my day went, what’s on my mind lately, and if there’s anything I need him to do.
He is an alpha male, dominant, and head of the household, but he views that as him having a responsibility to put us first and take care of us. He’s the leader and he puts first the people he’s leading.
When I’m upset, he takes it as his responsibility as a provider to make sure that I am cheered up and he’ll do what he can to make me smile or make me feel better.
He has never cheated (I do admit that I have to say “as I know of”) and believes that affairs are a sign of being a failure as a man and as a provider.
Every night, he tucks our children in, and then secures the house to make sure that the alpha male’s family can sleep safe. He walks around the outside of the house, making sure that no one put anything that could help them get into a window. He then secures all of the windows from the insides, secures the doors, and then sets up the security system.
He also has a habit of sleeping on the side of the bed closest to the door because he likes to feel like he’s even slightly between me and any danger that might come in.
You can probably understand, Evan, why I may feel offended at you saying that alpha males tend to be poor longterm romantic partners. This man, although dominant, confident, assertive, and always searching for his next challenge (and a soaring sex drive to boot), also spends every Saturday morning rolling around on the floor playing with our children, taking us to the park, coming home during his lunch break to take me out for lunch, planning date nights, and more.
He was also once put into the hospital when he put himself between me and someone who was threatening me and he did so without fear or a second’s hesitation.
I wonder how in the world that can be a poor romantic partner? To me this sounds like an angel God sent me.
Now I don’t want to bash beta males either. Just like I’m offended when you say that such a large group of men aren’t good romantic partners, I wouldn’t want to make such sweeping statements about a group of millions of men of men either.
There are some qualities beta males have that my alpha male doesn’t have. Beta males, for example, show a bit more sensitivity. Andrew shows a ton of sensitivity for my feelings (and as the leader he does think that’s and important sign of being a good leader and husband) but he has trouble expressing his own feelings and prefers to keep them inside of himself.
I definitely sometimes crave to feel his emotion and to share any pain that he may have so that I can help him to conquer it as a team. He has never cried in front of me and I sometimes crave that, crave the opportunity to comfort him.
But an alpha male rarely shows that sort of emotion.
There are obviously great qualities to be found in beta males as well.
This is why I think it is unfair to say that a large group of men, millions of men of a certain general type, do or do not tend to be good romantic partners.
There are alpha males who are FANTASTIC husbands (like mine) and there are ones who are horrible. And I’m just as sure that there are beta males who make fantastic husbands (like you) yet beta males who make horrible ones.
Instead of saying that one large group of millions of men do or do not tend to be good husbands, isn’t it more fair to just judge each man’s strengths as a romantic partner and weaknesses romantic partner as they come?
Let’s not cross out an entire group of millions of men and let’s instead be feminine woman, open, receptive, and accepting to each man and open to learning about his strengths and weaknesses without jumping to unfair conclusions about his character without first giving him a chance to show you what he’s all about.
After all, I never turned down a beta male or an alpha male automatically and I’ve had both great and horrible romantic partners in both groups.
Respectfully,
Nina
Evan Marc Katz 61
Nina,
I didn’t have the patience to read your entire comment, so forgive me. Just understand that my clients are alpha females. Such women are rarely good fits for alpha males because they’re too alike. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not that alpha males are pure evil; they’re just better suited for a different type of woman than my typical alpha client.
I’m glad your husband is an angel sent from God; that doesn’t change the fact that alpha males are also objectively high risk because of their conqueror mentality. Since you’re beta (“my husband is the head of household”) you found a good fit for you. I can assure you; most women here would not want a man who is “head of household.
Evan
marymary 62
Two words,
tiger woods .
make it four
mick jagger
is this haiku?
Fiona 63
I don’t necessarily agree that alpha females should stick to beta men. As an alpha female in other areas of life I tried dating beta men and I hated it. I absolutely want a strong alpha man to play the alpha role when it comes to a relationship. That doesn’t mean I can’t be alpha at work. I think we play different roles in different situations.
Nina 64
Dear Evan,
Although it is true that there is a conqueror mentality, how alpha males exercise it lies within their character. Each man, beta or alpha, has a certain type of character and that is what will truly define your behavior.
It seems that in your comment, you say that it’s not that there’s an issue with alpha males, just that they’re not good fit for your clients and you also say that since I’m a beta I found a good fit for me. But you also say that it apparently doesn’t change the fact they are high risk.
I’m not sure what you meant when you said “high risk” but then went onto say that I found a good fit for me. It would seem that high risk would be a bad fit for any woman, wouldn’t it?
Could you please explain to me if perhaps alpha males are not as high risk when paired with beta females? Because if so, what you just said would make sense.
Also could you please explain to me what exactly is a beta female? Because I’ve been researching it for awhile but it seems that different sites have truly contradictory definitions.
Thank you,
Nina
Su-Yi 65
Sorry Evan as much as I generally love your advice I have to agree with @Nina here.
I have dated many alphas and many betas and the only man who ever cheated on me was a clear beta.
I feel like both can easily commit the same acts due to both having poor character, like cheating, but they would do it for different reasons.
An alpha might do it for the thrills and the “because I can” feel of it.
A beta might do it due to not being able to tell his wife what he truly needs in sex for whatever reason so he needs to get it from somewhere else.
Same crime, different reasons for committing it.
Fiona 66
I am under the impression that different people have different ideas of what an alpha man is which is perhaps the cause of confusion. I do not see being an alpha as having negative connotations per se but some seem to describe alphas in terms I would use for sociopaths who are clearly high risk.
Iosif 67
Lots of interesting reading here on the topic! Indeed, alpha males are hard to catch and they rarely change. Unfortunately some woman have a fantasy: “I’ll change him!”.. Remember ladies, that’s a fantasy!
Fiona 68
I think at the end of the day intelligent successful women just relate better to intelligent successful men because they have more in common. It is that simple. I have just spent a week away on a residential training course with alpha men and women. Although I was the only umarried person there, I really had more fun than in a long time and haven’t laughed as much in ages. I have been dating beta men this year and it hasn’t worked out anyway – just felt like lowering my standards too much to be in a relatioship and being dumped by men I felt were not in the same league just made me feel bad. I’d rather give it up now and be alone if there are no alphas left – life is short and there is more to it than finding a partner that doesn’t have the same drive, energy, wit and sense of adventure.
Rachel 69
I hate it when men are afraid to admit they are a beta male. For some reason, it has a bad rep. So they call themselves Alpha Males, but “not that kind” of Alpha Male. From your own description you’re most likely a Beta Male not willing to take the title.
“I stop work at 6. I don’t work on weekends or take clients on Fridays. I apologize frequently. If my wife ever needs me to sacrifice for the family, the answer is yes. That’s where my value system lies.”
We should call it the Alpha A$$h0Le scale. Alpha males are in the number one ranking. Maybe that will take the sting out of Betas coming up second
Evan Marc Katz 70
@Rachel – I let your insulting comment thru, just so I could respond.
Your intimation is that one can only be an Alpha Male if you’re an arrogant and selfish asshole who is completely disrepectful of other people’s time and needs.
I completely disagree.
Alpha males are typified by their confidence in all situations, their unwillingness to concede that anyone is “better” than them. By this token, I am a typical alpha male. I just happen to be a good husband and father who values work/life balance. That doesn’t negate my original claim, nor does it make me a Beta male.
Lucy 71
Is there such a thing as an alpha female? I suppose that if there is she’d have different characteristics to those of an alpha male. Why is it that nowadays women are encouraged to assume masculine qualities? I don’t think a woman would have to have masculine traits to be considered ‘alpha’.
Helen 72
Reading these comments about alpha and beta males and females, I’m left to believe that a person cannot himself or herself determine whether s/he is alpha or beta. I can claim up and down, all day long, that I’m an alpha female, because I am XYZ and have ABC. But at the end of the day, if others in my circle of acquaintances don’t agree, what good does my own trumpeting do me?
Ultimately, the only real value of labeling someone as alpha or beta (terms I don’t really like in the first place, as they restrict people into categories) is describing how others interact with you. So it’s only others’ opinion on this that matters. Some may consider you an alpha, others a beta. It’s situational.
Karl R 73
Rachel said: (#69)
“I hate it when men are afraid to admit they are a beta male. For some reason, it has a bad rep.”
I don’t know anyone who describes himself as “alpha” or “beta” in normal conversation. Outside of this blog, it’s rare for me to hear someone refer to someone else as “alpha” or “beta” either.
But we’ve all observed men that women are attracted to, and men women are not attracted to. Some of this is based on physical attractiveness and wealth, but some is based on other traits (like appearing self-confident).
Being successful at dating starts with getting your foot in the door. If a woman has ruled you out before you even get within 6 feet, you’re not going to get anywhere. If she’s already interested, then you at least have the opportunity to let personality (or other positive traits) work in your favor.
I didn’t need to become more ambitious at work to succeed at dating. I didn’t need to become a natural leader. But I relied upon my ability to get a fair number of women interested in me before I even made eye contact with them.
In my dating pools, I created the impression that women were attracted me, enjoyed my company and trusted me. I wasn’t creating an illusion out of something that didn’t exist, but I was creating an impression that exceeded reality.
Rachel said: (#69)
“Maybe that will take the sting out of Betas coming up second”
If lots of men acknowledge that you’re a sweet, smart, caring person that some man would be lucky to have as a wife, but those same men chase a less intelligent, not so nice acquaintance and ignore the opportunity to date you….
… Do the kind words take the sting out of being the woman that the men ignore?
Talk is cheap.
Ellen 74
Evan at #70:
I completely agree with Evan- you can be alpha and not an arrogant a-hole. My Dad was an alpha male, a very nice, caring man to all, and one of the things he projected was the attitude Evan describes of “no one is better than I am”. Particularly intellectually.
I feel that way about myself thanks to him. (If someone can do math better or faster, I simply call them “mental athletes”, but my reasoning powers are second to none imo.) That, plus my athletic ability (I beat men at tennis as a kid, etc.), macho, can-do attitude towards a lot of home repairs, never playing the victim and I am probably an alpha female. lol Deluded I know, but my confidence has gotten me places.
Lucy #71: Some of the most intimidating alpha females I know are as feminine as you get- they just have wills of iron and brook no opposition from anyone. Let’s put it this way: If people regularly call a woman a “bitch”, chances are she is alpha.
Joe 75
In wolves the alpha male is the leader of the pack. The alpha female is the leader’s mate. The beta pair is supposed to be the second in command. So sure, it seems reasonable to assume there is such a thing as an alpha female in humans. But if it’s like wolves where there’s only one alpha female for each alpha male, if you’re an alpha female, your odds of attracting an alpha male are not very high.
Ty 76
All I seem to attract are alpha males. honestly I didn’t even know what an “alpha male” was until I noticed a pattern with the men I was dating and started to look for advice online. Then I noticed they all had these similar traits of being dominant and needing freedom. the man I am seeing is even more “alpha” than the last! He’s a good man though, but it takes so much patience to deal with him. I love him but I’m at a point where I am not attached to outcome. I’m sure he likes it that way. Smh. There is something about me that attracts these alpha men like bees to honey. My dad is alpha, maybe that’s why.