Is There Anything Wrong With Hooking Up?
Hanna Rosin is the author of the new book, “The End of Men” which discusses the changing gender roles in 21st century America. She’s also a noted feminist blogger who created XX for Slate magazine and published an interesting new article in this month’s Atlantic Magazine about the hook-up culture.
Now first off, let me say that the hook-up culture is nothing new. We may have more girls texting naked pictures than they did in 1991, when I was in college, but I don’t think that binge drinking and the walk of shame started with the Millenials. If anything, we’re just now seeing the effects of women who were brought up believing in full equality, which includes hooking up with men for pleasure, instead of using college to go on a husband hunt.
We can debate whether something dreamy and idealistic is lost in all of this inebriated collegiate bed-hopping.
Says Rosin, “What emerged from four years of research was the sense that hooking up was part of a larger romantic strategy…For an upwardly mobile, ambitious young woman, hookups were a way to dip into relationships without disrupting her self-development or schoolwork. Hookups functioned as a “delay tactic…because the immediate priority, for the privileged women at least, was setting themselves up for a career. “If I want to maintain the lifestyle that I’ve grown up with,” one woman said, “I have to work. I just don’t see myself being someone who marries young and lives off of some boy’s money.”
We can debate whether something dreamy and idealistic is lost in all of this inebriated collegiate bed-hopping. I’d probably say it is. But there’s no putting that genie back in the bottle. Women and men are equal and they’re absolutely dating that way – hoping to find love eventually, but content with some fun sexual experience for now.
“About 66 percent of women say they wanted their most recent hookup to turn into something more, but 58 percent of men say the same — not a vast difference, considering the cultural panic about the demise of chivalry and its consequences for women. And in fact, the broad inference that young people are having more sex—and not just coarser sex—is just wrong; teenagers today, for instance, are far less likely than their parents were to have sex or get pregnant. Between 1988 and 2010, the percentage of teenage girls having sex dropped from 37 to 27, according to the latest data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. By many measures, the behavior of young people can even look like a return to a more innocent age.”
I’m decidedly nonjudgmental about people’s sex lives. Do what you want, try not to hurt anyone else and be conscious of what you can handle emotionally. If you can’t handle hooking up, opt out of it, like 25% of students do. Personally, I think the college years are the perfect time to experiment and feel out your limits for alcohol, drugs, and sex, not to mention making sound financial decisions, studying without being coerced, and taking responsibility for the results in your life. Since I didn’t lose my virginity until sophomore year, I had a lot of catching up to do, and far be it from me to condemn a young woman who is having the same experience. I remember it as one of the best times of my life.
What do you think? Is hooking up wrong? How has it worked for you?
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74 Comments »Filed Under Sex
I am nearly always in the mood physically. However as a woman I need and want to...
Julia 1
I would say I used hooking up as a form of dating in my mid-late twenties when I was too focused on my career to seriously date but still craved some sort of relationship with a man. Now that I am 31 and want a husband I don’t hook up. I don’t regret it at all.
Kathleen 2
Interestingly Helen Fisher Anthropologist and author of “love” science research said 30% of hook ups in one of her studies went on to form relationships. I thought that was pretty encouraging. In fact my marriage of 20 years evolved from what I thought was going to be a one night hook up ….
melie 3
Hookups are wrong, but people still give into it:having sex with someone they don’t know, or even care to know. Occasionally one of these illicit relationships grows into something more, but not often. Becoming friends with someone and moving into something more meaningful has long term benefits for people seeking to become a couple basing their relationship on something more than a physical relationship with sexual benefits. Though I have partaken of hookups, it never ever works. Never leads to something more meaningful and when the physical attraction wanes, the relationship flickers out like a candle in the wind. I want a ltr that is based on common values, common interests and with a mutual respect and admiration for one another:offering us more than the bedroom in common.
helene 4
I think that hooking up is fine – as long as you see it for what it is. I think the mistake a lot of people make is to see hook ups as a way into a potential relationship, when generally they aren’t.
For people (of both sexes) looking for a relationship,there can be times when that option simply isn’t happening, and to have no sex as well as no boyfriend is just double misery! Many people – myself included – would not argue with the idea that sex with a committed partner who loves you is far preferable to random hook-ups, but unfortunately committed relationships are not something you can purchase at a department store. being alone can be tough, and hooking up with an attractive guy can be enjoyable and even comforting during periods when there is no committed man in your life. I do think, though, that you need to see hook ups as something entirely separate from dating or looking for a life partner. If you’re on a night out and meet someone you’re considering hooking up with, you need to ask yourself – “would I potentially be interested in dating this guy?” If the answer is “yes” then the last thing you should do is hook up with him. I think that in gerneral by hooking up you actually REDUCE the chances that you will end up in a relationship with that person.
Having said all that, I am currently in a committed relationship (and likely heading for marriage! WOW!) with a guy I hooked up with on holiday a few months ago – I can hardly believe it. I didn’t expect things to go this way,it was not on my agenda when I met him, but that is what has happened so it can work out that way, but I still would say it is definately not the norm, and hooking up and searching for a life partner should be considered 2 entirely separate activities!
Jay 5
Having sex is the greatest gift we’ve been given as human beings. Nothing comes close to it. The way we treat sex today is disrespectful. It’s no more than a sneeze or cough or hiccup. You develop a high level of respect for sex once you’ve been in love and experience having sex with someone you truly care about and someone who cares about you. Sad…..
Lucy 6
I think hooking-up is okay. I wouldn’t say it is particularly moral, but then I wouldn’t hugely condemn it either. What I do believe is that you must take responsibility for yourself and make sure you can trust and respect the person you get involved with. What you definitely shouldn’t do is to do it expecting something meaningful or a self-esteem boost. I know women who have and it hasn’t worked out for them often. The exceptions are there to prove the rule. I used to be quite conservative about sex due to my upbringing. But I have now engaged in some hook-ups. I feel quite liberated by it and don’t now feel so out of control. I doubt I will look for a relationship out of lust rather than a true emotional connection. I can now separate the two. I am in my early twenties and at a stage in my life where I suppose I am figuring out what love and sex really mean for me.
When I first hooked-up, I stopped and thought “I have not changed as a person. I have not become a ‘slut’” (which is what people have said to me). I rejected everything I had learnt up to that point. People like to be black and white but simply because I enjoy casual sex, does not mean I have no capacity to feel and to show real love (I’d argue that I can even more so). I am not one-dimensional. Further I have treated every person I have been involved with, with kindness and respect. I would not try for a friends-with-benefits arrangement because I do not believe it could possibly be made equal. I would not hook-up if I was interested in a man relationship-wise. I would not do it if I had a longing in my heart for romance. I’d stop, take stock and figure out where I’m heading and what I want out of life. Well I know what I want and these experiences have taught me a lot. I do not regret them.
I have one question though. I talk about this freely to close friends but not because I have a sex life in order to brag about it. A couple have warned me to lie about my number and extent of sexual experience to get on better with a man I might end up dating. However I don’t think I’d be true to myself if I did this. I would never tell them everything (why do I need to?) but I don’t think I would hide it either. Those experiences made me who I am. I don’t need to be validated but I reckon that my having had a threesome (for example) would intimidate some men.
Still-Looking 7
Hooking up is not an activity just for the college-age crowd. I’ve dated extensively over the last few years. I know I might be busting a few stereotypes but quite a few women I’ve met are just like men when it comes to “hooking up.” I’ve gone out with plenty of women who are not really interested in a LTR for a variety of reasons. Whether 35 or 55, many of them just want to enjoy life and don’t have any hang-ups about NSA sex. They just want a decent man to spend time with and want to keep things very casual.
AllenB 8
Posters, define what hookup means to you. Most posters so far say it means intercourse (or close enough that it might as well be intercourse). I have heard it meanheavy petting with someone you don’t intend to have a relationship with, and one night stand is used to mean sex.
The excerpts from the article say it is sex, but urban dictionary attributes several meanings to it, so for clarity give us your definition.
Evan Marc Katz 9
My definition of hookup is anything physical without commitment. Making out is hooking up.
Julia 10
@Evan-then I hook up a couple times a month at least!!!
henriette 11
I’ve kissed plenty of guys I knew I’d never see again. However, I’ve never had sex hookups because I know myself well enough that I realise I’m someone who attaches too much ego and emotional importance to more intimate physical acts. I don’t think I’m “better” than those who have sex without commitment but I am glad I know myself well to create boundaries that seem to work pretty well for me.
susan 12
So we all know that its not a bad idea to hold out on having sex until someone is your partner. In fact, if more people did this my guess is there’d be a whole lot less heartache out there, and a whole lot less people on here bemoaning the fact there there are no ”decent men/women” left.
Yes I think hooking up (as per EMKs definition) is more prevalent, or at least, more socially acceptable. Does it make it ok? Not if you want a partner as it seems 66% of people do.
the problem is that sex changes things. it gets hormones racing that skew thoughts and feelings. If you can handle that then I guess thats a whole other issue, but seems to me most people cant.
Mark 13
Hooking up was great when I was in my 20-30′s but now I want something more than that.
Leo 14
Hooking up is no problem in my book.
I don’t even think it’s got anything to do with having morals or not. It’s anyone’s own personal business and he/she is not hurting anyone else, so why not.
@Lucy
From a guy’s perspective…if the girl I’m with has a very adventurous sexual past, I’d rather not know. But if the guy you’re with insists on asking you, you’ve got the green light.
But if he never asked for it and you tell him, it’d be the same as him telling you about his past sexual experiences–only, in very very vivid details. You wouldn’t want to hear that.
So why not spare him.
Lucy 15
@Leo – As I suspected. Well I have no need to flaunt my sexual past at anyone. And if I did, then I’d have to question why I had sex in the first place. My plan has always been not to mention it unless explicitly asked. After all, it doesn’t affect anything I will be doing in the future. Even if he asked, I’d still make an effort to look at the situation properly and still not mention it all simply because he says he wants to know.
With regard to what you said, “I don’t even think it’s got anything to do with having morals or not.”, I know I’ll give the best response if I’m honest, so here goes. I absolutely do think it has something to do with morals. I have never got into a situation I did not want to be in. However with a couple of men I’ve slept with casually they have only raised the question of commitment after the act. This is when they’ve said “I’m avoiding a relationship” or “I’m not looking for a relationship”. This has been okay because I never went into it expecting something. However it does make me wonder why they find it so difficult to be honest up front and how that would affect a woman who wasn’t as sure of what she was doing as I was. They think they are excused from a position of responsibility because they never went into it promising anything. But I would argue that it has to work both ways. They have a responsibility to properly check whether the woman is more emotionally invested even if she has not said so. And the same would work if a woman was initiating something with a man. I would certainly not get involved with someone casually if I could tell he wanted more from it which I couldn’t give.
I got into hooking up because I wanted to experiment and actually test my feelings about sex. I have to tell you that it’s done nothing to dissuade me from my preference for sex within a loving relationship (which has made me realise what I want). It’s opened my eyes too. Maybe I was naive but it is definitely not as glamorous as I perceived. Most people who do it don’t really know what they’re doing and can’t really deal with the consequences. My number is not actually that high but I’d say that some of men I have been involved with casually have some kind of emotional avoidance issue and that’s why they’ve pursued something casual over a meaningful relationship. Rarely have I been involved with someone casually who doesn’t have some kind of emotional baggage.
Maybe I have plenty myself. I went into it after being in relationship after relationship in which I’d been mistreated. Looking back I feel like I wasn’t appreciated so I’ve never really had love and sex in the same package. I feel more respected sexually by the people I’ve been involved with casually than I have been in long-term relationships. I’m not sure how to interpret that.
Tom10 16
AllenB
“Define what hook-up means to you”
I would define a hook-up as spending the night in a bed with someone and having some sort of physical contact; ranging from just a fumble to full intercourse.
Lucy
“I have one question though…a couple have warned me to lie about my number and extent of sexual experience…I would never tell them everything…but I reckon that my having had a threesome (for example) would intimidate some men.”
I think your number and extent of sexual experience is nobody’s business but yours, therefore, you don’t have to discuss it with any future partner. Lying isn’t a great idea unless you have a great memory. I wouldn’t be intimidated by finding out you had a threesome (I might by a gangbang though!).
“They have a responsibility to properly check whether the woman is more emotionally invested even if she has not said so”
This is wishful thinking…the onus is on each individual to look out for their own emotional well-being, not someone else’s.
“I’d say that some of men I have been involved with casually have some kind of emotional avoidance issue and that’s why they’ve pursued something casual over a meaningful relationship”
As you are quite young I will assume the men you are hooking up with are quite young; and for young men hooking up is just great fun! No more than that really.
My question is; what is the most sensitive and honest way of ending a hook-up? Should a guy ask for her number even if he knows he’ll never ring her? Or should he just kiss her on the cheek and walk away?
I’ve walked away from girls after hook ups before without asking for their numbers and saw the hurt in their eyes, which made me feel terrible. Other times I’ve taken their numbers but didn’t ring them. What is the correct etiquette in this situation?
Karmic Equation 17
@Lucy
From several books and blogs I’ve read, even if the guy *insists* on knowing, it is recommended to NOT tell him your number no matter how low or high. Not because you have anything to hide (although he may intimate that) — but because it is none of his business and him having that knowledge would NOT be beneficial in any way, shape, or form to the relationship. Don’t lie, but don’t tell. The recommendation is to say something vague (“I’m sure it’s less than yours”) or deflect (“Why do you want to know?”). And no matter how reasonable sounding his answer may be, and no matter how much you want to tell him, don’t tell. And if he pressures you, he’s not the guy for you, because only masochists, low self-esteemers, or prudes want to know. Guys who have been around don’t ask; guys who are confident don’t care.
@Helene 4 – I agree with you 100% on not hooking up with potential romantic interests.
———-
Always ask yourself if you may want the guy to be a BF in the future BEFORE you hook up. If you’re honest, and think YES or even MAYBE, then DO NOT HOOK UP. If the answer is I DON’T CARE or NO, then go for it. The caveat is that even if you want him to be a BF in the future, he may not want you to be his gf. But you need to answer the question honestly to yourself, because that honest answer will help you avoid an ONS with someone you may care for. While consciously you haven’t made this assessment, your subconscious probably has…and the honest answer will help you avoid unnecessary heartbreak.
When I was in college, hookups and booty calls were not the norm. I had never been anyone’s booty call. So it was interesting to become one at the age of 45. And I have to say it was a truly liberating experience. Having always been a serial monogamist (sure I had a few ONS in my 20′s between relationships, those don’t count as I was such a newbie) – I always cared more about my guy’s pleasure during sex to the exclusion of my own pleasure. But as a booty call, I only had to think about my own pleasure and was not at all concerned about his as I figured that was his problem LOL…and lo and behold, the sex was better than I had ever experienced in a committed relationship.
Moral of the story, I guess, is that even in a committed relationship, at least in my case, focusing on my own pleasure actually assures BOTH parties are satisfied. Which, applied to the hookup culture, may mean that women who grew up, and participated, in it are probably much more satisfied sexually (or at least more readily know how to become sexually satisfied) than those of us who grew up before the hookup culture became pervasive.
Karmic Equation 18
@Tom10 16
“This is wishful thinking…the onus is on each individual to look out for their own emotional well-being, not someone else’s.”
Agreed 100%. The problem, Tom, is that most women think that having sex with a guy tells the guy (without words) they’re interested in a relationship; while guys put on blinders and willfully ignore this unspoken expectation. How to level the playing field? I would suggest that WOMEN who are expecting relationships to result from sex, to take the initiative and say, “if I have sex with you, I want us to have a relationship afterwards. I consider tonight the first night of our relationship.” — But no woman woman (except maybe Fusee) will do this. So, women, if you’re not willing to volunteer this, then don’t expect men to volunteer that they’re not looking for a relationship. They are equivalent.
“My question is; what is the most sensitive and honest way of ending a hook-up? Should a guy ask for her number even if he knows he’ll never ring her? Or should he just kiss her on the cheek and walk away?”
I would say the most sensitive way is to look her in the eyes and say sincerely “Thanks for a wonderful evening.” Then look away (so you don’t see the hurt), no kisses, no asking for numbers, no looking back, and just walk away. If you kiss her, you want to leave a good impression and are in essence hooking her in and hurting her more. If you really want to help her, do just as I say, so that she can hate your guts (or her own guts) and get over you faster.
Ruby 19
Tom10 #16
Reading your post, I’m wondering if people always know it’s a hook-up. And by EMK’s definition, what exactly is a commitment? If a woman has gone out 3 times with a man and they make out, with her expectation that he’s going to keep seeing her, but he decides not to, is that a hook-up? I guess I think of a hook-up as a one night stand in which there are no expectations. You are not really “dating”. No?
Did you tell the women before you hooked up that you weren’t looking for anything serious? Sounds like maybe you didn’t and are feeling guilty when you see the hurt on their faces. I know I’ve encountered men who were only to happy to let me think that something meaningful was happening, when it became clear later on that they were only humoring me. Unless both parties are very clear, it sounds like a gray area.
Goldie 20
@ Lucy #6 – like everyone else said, it’s don’t ask, don’t tell. That said, if a man insisted on knowing my exact number, that fact alone would lead me to thinking that he and I are probably not a good match, since his priorities are so different from mine. FTR no man has ever asked me about my number and I’ve never asked anyone about theirs. To me, it’s just irrelevant and frankly, like others said, none of my business.
I had an interesting conversation the other day BTW, with an old friend who got out of an LTR around the same time I got out of my marriage, i.e. two years ago. One thing that surprised him when he started dating again was the number of women who have these arbitrary milestones – on date one, we’re allowed to hold hands. On date two, we’re allowed to kiss on the lips… etc etc His reaction to this was… “wth is this? Where are we. high school?” I told him that there are hundreds of books and dating-advice sites on the market that recommend women to do these things in order to secure commitment. According to him, it’s not working. All we do when we set these rules is weird the guy out. Personally I prefer things to flow naturally, depending on my personality, his personality and how well we get along. It may mean taking it slow, or it may mean moving quickly — whatever both sides are comfortable with.
On topic, when in between relationships, I’d probably prefer FWB to ONS’s, because in my experience the first time is always so awkward and hardly satisfying, that I’d hate it to be my only time with a person. (My target audience are men in their 40s and early 50s.)
Lucy 21
Thank you everyone for your sage advice. I really feel that I am learning a lot from here, since you guys have experienced more of life than I have. It certainly gives me something to think about. And I agree with you, Karmic. Personally I don’t care what a potential partner’s number is. All I care about is that he is clean (I have had someone lie to me about this before).
@Tom10 – My question is; what is the most sensitive and honest way of ending a hook-up? Should a guy ask for her number even if he knows he’ll never ring her? Or should he just kiss her on the cheek and walk away?
Well I would feel that it’d be wrong to ask for a woman’s number if you have no intention of messaging her because that would be insincere and giving her false hope. I’d rather that people were authentic rather than do something for the sake of being nice whilst sending out the wrong communication signals. I suppose that others might have different opinions. From what I’ve experienced, it’s been friendly conversation the next day, them making me a cup of tea, walking me back to my house and a hug or a peck on the cheek. Strangely I’ve had more affection from men I’ve been casually involved with than past boyfriends. This makes my brain confused about men and how they do/should act.
A gang bang is definitely not something I’d take part in…I find it hard to imagine how I could do that and retain my dignity.
@Karmic- Always ask yourself if you may want the guy to be a BF in the future BEFORE you hook up. If you’re honest, and think YES or even MAYBE, then DO NOT HOOK UP. If the answer is I DON’T CARE or NO, then go for it.
Yes. That’s exactly my thought process. If my intuition tells me that it doesn’t feel right, then I don’t do it. I have to protect my self-esteem.
I felt what you were describing when I decided to be casual for a while. Although I’m only 22, I just felt drained by an abusive relationship I’d been in. I didn’t want to feel under anyone’s control for once, and I could discover a different side of myself. I realised that whatever society expects women to do sexually just isn’t me. I have a high sex drive, higher than some men I know, and I do need to find release sometimes.
Lucy 22
@Karmic - Agreed 100%. The problem, Tom, is that most women think that having sex with a guy tells the guy (without words) they’re interested in a relationship; while guys put on blinders and willfully ignore this unspoken expectation. How to level the playing field? I would suggest that WOMEN who are expecting relationships to result from sex, to take the initiative and say, “if I have sex with you, I want us to have a relationship afterwards. I consider tonight the first night of our relationship.”
Well I agree with what you said. Just to clarify what I said, I was not identifying it as a gender issue. I just see a hazy line between people’s actions and expectations. Whilst a person should be able to look after themselves and state their needs adequately; I believe that they should make themselves accountable if their actions have inadvertently had an effect on someone else because they’ve communicated their intentions incorrectly. Maybe it’s something people ask themselves a lot? How much are we responsible for as individual human beings, and how much is up to the other person? It’s very easy to take the easy route, which might prove not to be the right one.
As you suggested, it’s best not to pretend to know what the other person’s intentions are. And if you’re unsure, asking will not do any harm. I used to think asserting myself would come across as aggressive but now realise that me asserting my needs doesn’t mean the world will fall in under itself. It sounds obvious but it is counter-intuitive to everything I have learnt growing up about how to interact with the opposite sex.
Tom10 23
Ruby
“If a woman has gone out 3 times with a man and they make out…is that a hook-up? Did you tell the women before you hooked up that you weren’t looking for anything serious?”
Like you I see hook-ups as random one-off nights, rather than when dating someone. If I was actively dating someone I would feel a moral compunction to ensure we were on the same page at the outset. W
My predicament normally arises when you meet someone after you’ve had a few drinks and think that they’re great. Then when sobriety hits in the morning you realise that for one reason or another it won’t go any further, rather than intentional deception.
Karmic
Thanks for that advice. I used to send a friendly text message a few days later purposely not asking her out, implying that I liked and respected her but didn’t see anything further happening. The problem with that is it might be construed as leading-on, thus furthering the confusion.
I will stick to “thanks for a wonderful evening” from now on so.
Fusee 24
I do not think there is anything “wrong” or “immoral” per se with hooking up. Whatever consenting adults choose to engage into is fine by me, regardless of whether I want it for myself or not.
However hooking up is threading in unsafe waters, and usually without really knowing that you are in unsafe waters. Older women who know what is going on can make an enlightened consent to the situation, but younger and less experienced women might end up consenting to something they might not truly understand. The consequences could be confusing: either believing there was more to it than what was actually offered, or convincing themselves that they will be able to secure real relationships with the same kind of guys later on, when they are finally ready to settle down.
Not likely to happen. People have different criteria for casual sex and for relationships, and this blog is a good testimony of how some people of both genders feel entitled to a certain “standard” of partners (who might have chased them for casual sex when they were younger), but who will never consider them for anything more serious. Regardless of their numerous accomplishments.
So hook up if you can enjoy it. But please educate your younger friends, sisters, and daughters about what such behaviors entail, and what the physical, emotional, and strategical risks are.
@Tom #16: “What is the correct etiquette in this situation?”
I find ironic to ask about etiquette in a situation that so often is about exploiting the grey areas, the lack of awareness and clarity. To me, the proper “etiquette” would be to clarify verbally and clearly BEFORE the fact that you just want casual sex and nothing else. The anti-game indeed! But less women would (sexually) hook up if they knew the truth. After the fact, there is no more need to worry about etiquette: either she did not care and does not need “etiquette”, or she did care and etiquette was needed BEFORE using her. At that point, this is going to be about you, and what would make you feel less bad about yourself, right?
@Karmic Equation #18: “I would suggest that WOMEN who are expecting relationships to result from sex, to take the initiative and say, “if I have sex with you, I want us to have a relationship afterwards. I consider tonight the first night of our relationship.” — But no woman woman (except maybe Fusee) will do this.”
I actually have even stricter standards than that and will not even go to second base BEFORE a relationship is established. With me, sex happen WITHIN a relationship, not as the celebration of “the first night of our relationship”. But as I said multiple times: to each their own. I completely respect other preferences. I have friends who wait until marriage, I have polyamorous friends, I have friends who go with the flow, and some acquaintances who hook up and have casual sex with multiple partners at the same time. I found a happy middle way that works great for me and the kind of men I’m interested in for the long-term, that’s all.
My wish to everyone is to know themselves really well, to be fully educated on men/women dynamics, and to understand all the ramification of their choices not only in the short-term but also in the long-term, when their circumstances will have changed.
Nicole 25
Maybe it’s a generational thing, b/c as someone who went to college in the 90′s, hooking up did NOT mean sex. And for a lot of the college age people, it is frequently all matters of physical contact stopping short of intercourse. It could be for some people, but it basically could be any kind of physical fooling around with someone that you were otherwise not committed to, and I’m pretty sure things haven’t changed from the idea that a lot of youngsters don’t date so much as have friends with varying levels of benefits.
Is everyone else here just a Boomer who is used to “going steady with a beau” and therefore completely unaware of the “hook-up culture” that has been rampant on college campuses for a while/
Ruby 26
Tom10 #23
My predicament normally arises when you meet someone after you’ve had a few drinks and think that they’re great. Then when sobriety hits in the morning you realise that for one reason or another it won’t go any further, rather than intentional deception.
I’m curious, what makes you change your mind about these women the next day, if you thought they were so great the night before, or is it just the fact that you’re not looking for anything serious?
Karmic Equation 27
Well first, my post had a typo, didn’t mean to write *woman woman*
@Lucy
I specifically wrote my answer to women, as generally, women are the ones who have a problem with guys not stating up front that they’re not looking for a relationship. Guys don’t tend to care that women are looking for them (e.g., those “wilfull blinders” I mentioned). Hence, I feel if women have the issue with men not stating their intentions up front, I challenge these women to state their own intentions up front. It doesn’t feel good when the shoe is on the other foot, right? Why do the men have to say it first. If we’re feminists here, we have equal opportunity and responsibility stating our intentions. Can’t have that both ways, imo.
@Tom10
You’re welcome. My other motto in life is “Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.” ‘Nuf said.
@Fusee
It doesn’t surprise me that you have stricter standards. More power to you! I think we are at opposite extremes in starting relationships. Sometimes I lead with sex…you never do. In the end we both head towards the middle, a “committed relationship”. You wish yours to lead to marriage…I wish to have a committed relationship without the label (or responsibility). As you say, to each his/her own
Julia 28
I think its important to note that hooking up doesn’t mean one-night stand either. It means some sort of physical relationship that is not an exclusive partner relationship.
Julia 29
I also think its funny that the middle-aged people on here who are looking for marriage are debating this hooking up business. Did no one read the article? This is about young women in their twenties who are not ready for a marriage-orientated relationship. Its not about you.
Ruby 30
Nicole #25
Interestingly enough, I have younger friends, as well as friends with college-aged kids, and these younger people are all in relationships, and not hooking up.
And when I was younger (college in the 80′s), I had plenty of friends who hooked up. Trust me, it’s nothing new.
Lucy 31
And for a lot of the college age people, it is frequently all matters of physical contact stopping short of intercourse.
I don’t get that. Why would you do it but not go the whole hog? Not trying to sound crass; just don’t see that there is much of an intimacy gap between second-base and full on sex. So if I stopped short of that, I wouldn’t really be holding back on something special. And if you want to save yourself for that special person then that’s really awesome but seems silly to interpret that as going around lots of people and not quite doing the deed. For example, I met this guy at university who’s catholic and he told me that he doesn’t believe in sex before marriage, so he says he can have anal sex with as many girls as he wants. His reasoning seems totally redundant to me.
Regardless of my own experiences, I’d say that many people who participate in the hook-up culture don’t really have a clue what they’re doing; at least people my age anyway.
Lucy 32
@Karmic – Hence, I feel if women have the issue with men not stating their intentions up front, I challenge these women to state their own intentions up front. It doesn’t feel good when the shoe is on the other foot, right? Why do the men have to say it first. If we’re feminists here, we have equal opportunity and responsibility stating our intentions. Can’t have that both ways, imo.
Oh yes. I wholly agree. Well I’ve always believed that you have to make sure that your own house is in order before you go sorting out everyone else’s. And it’s often the case that what you criticise in other people is what you dislike in yourself. I don’t like it when people aren’t up front but I acknowledge that I do need to work at this more myself. And if you don’t state what you want or ask the straightforward questions that you need the answer to, then you over-think everything. It’ll pile up and the original lesson will be lost. It has taken me years but I finally have more courage than I did before to articulate my opinions and needs. I’ve discovered that the consequences of this aren’t as disastrous as I originally thought. Boy, is it liberating! I have to continue on that path and that it’ll lead me through my twenties. It’s always good to test your assumptions, isn’t it?
Evan Marc Katz 33
@Karmic, in particular. I’ve enjoyed your contributions but felt the need to step in to offer a correction:
a) “I would suggest that WOMEN who are expecting relationships to result from sex, to take the initiative and say, “if I have sex with you, I want us to have a relationship afterwards. I consider tonight the first night of our relationship.” – This is awkward phraseology. See my book “Why He Disappeared” for exactly how you can successfully communicate that you will only have sex within the boundaries of an exclusive relationships. It’s definitely not what you said above.
b) Far more importantly, the key to understanding hooking up is not to expect men to suddenly stop having sex without attachment or emotion. That will never change. Instead of blaming men for doing what men do, take responsibility for your actions and have absolutely NO set of expectations following any sort of hook-up. Because, to most men, hooking up means NOTHING except physical pleasure. It is certainly not a promise of a future relationship. It’s not HIS job to tell you that. It’s YOUR job to know that.
Nicole 34
@Ruby,
I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn’t saying that 20 something never had relationships. I just think that attitudes towards fooling around and sex have loosened up in a way that makes hooking up an option or substitute that was previously not something people owned up to. And actually, I know that some people who had always had real boyfriends and girlfriends (as some people do) were kind of surprised by the casual nature of some of these interactions.
I’m sure people were “hooking up” in the 70′s and 80′s (I always assumed people were pretty slutty after the sexual revolution but before AIDS became a problem). I just wasn’t sure if the slang/colloquialism were the same, and thought it might be why people were assuming it always involved sex. Were you calling it hooking up or something else?
Jennifer 35
I have two things to say on the subject:
1. Safe sex always (and I can’t believe the number of men who still balk at the wearing condoms! really)
2. Communication, communicatio, communication!! People get hurt when they don’t communicate with their partners.
helene 36
As far as stating your intentions/expectations is concerned, I really don’t think this is as much of a minefield as others seem to think – its all pretty self evident. If someone you’ve just met on a night out suggests sex, its a hook-up until proven otherwise. If you want a hook-up, go for it. If you think you’d like to date the guy, don’t. There is no need to agonise over what he is thinking – he’s thinking “Its a hook-up.” There is no need to state: “I only want to have sex if this is the start of a relationship” because it ISN’T the start of a relationship! That’s like saying “I’m only boarding this plane if you assure me it isn’t going into outer space…” Don’t worry -its not!
Tom10 37
Fusee
“People have different criteria for casual sex and for relationships…people of both genders feel entitled to a certain “standard” of partners…but who will never consider them for anything serious.”
Good point – I’m not sure if people who have spent their 20’s hooking-up are sufficiently aware of this when they decide they actually want a relationship.
“To me, the proper “etiquette” would be to clarify verbally and clearly BEFORE the fact that you just want casual…at that point, this is going to be about you, and what would make you feel less about yourself, right?”
As Evan has repeatedly said, there is no obligation for men to declare their intentions prior to hooking-up. However, I feel I do have an obligation to behave as kindly, politely, and honestly as possible to the woman at all times, and this includes when saying goodbye. It’s not about me having a clear conscience.
If I was back with a woman and whilst reaching for the condom I said: “oh eh, I thought you should know where I stand on commitment and marriage” she would laugh in my face.
Ruby
“I’m curious, what makes you change your mind about these women the next day, if you thought they were so great the night before?”
Well the logistics of real life start to kick in the next morning and I start thinking; she lives too far away / she’s too old or young etc., none of which seemed important the night before. But usually (and I don’t like writing this) it’s because I’m not as attracted to her in the morning as I was the night before. I know that’s shallow.
Lucy
“it is frequently all matters of physical contact stopping short of intercourse…I don’t get that…why would you do it but not go the whole hog?”
I don’t get it either Lucy – I’ve hooked-up with so many women who have brought me back to theirs…just for a cuddle! Surely a snoring man in the bed just ruins a good night’s sleep?!
Nela 38
I like the idea of hooking up. You just never know when you will meet someone and things will just click with them.
androgynous 39
Hi Evan
I believe congratulations are in order on the birth of your child!
I have usually agreed with your comments and have found that both valuable and insightful. One thing you said in your most recent post needs clarification though.
“NO set of expectations following any sort of hook-up. Because, to most men, hooking up means NOTHING except physical pleasure….. It’s not HIS job to tell you that. It’s YOUR job to know that.”
Yes, but this presupposses that hooking up takes place in the appropriate setting. You’d expect hook-ups at designated pick-up joints such as clubs, bars, frat parties, raves…etc.
However, a woman would definitely not expect a casual hook-up with a man she meets through family or friends by way of introduction. This is just not the appropriate setting for it.
Then there are “grey” areas where a woman has every right to expect a dating situation from a man as opposed to just a casual hook-up. Internet dating through sites that purport to help people search for life partners, parties hosted by friends at their residence, through social events and functions organised by church, community groups etc.
Yes, it is rude to indicate up-front to a woman that you are not interested in anything but a hook-up. So if a man just wants a hook-up, he should only meet women through designated pick-up joints and avoid the others.
marymary 40
Andro
If this is an issue for you, don’t get physical when it’s stilL grey. I met the boyfriend at church but still did my due diligence, as did he. We didn’t kiss until over two months of dating. We won’t have sex until marriage so maybe we won’t have sex at all. I get that our values aren’t for everyone but the principle is the same. If it would bother you to have casual hookups then dont have them. If perchance it does happen despite your best efforts, then you opt out if you’re not on the same page. I get that not everyone will want to wait x weeks to do y but he will show you quite early on if he is genuinely looking for a girlfriend and thinks you are worth courting, to use an old fashioned phrase. In this, actions and words must align.
he doesn’t deserve a free pass just cos you met him in a normal or respectable way.
Gin 41
@Tom10: Why do you feel guilty? It’s just a hookup. You’re using her (and she you), so just get on, get off, then get up and leave.
Evan Marc Katz 42
@Androgynous. No. You’re not getting it. You keep telling MEN what to do differently. “If a man wants a hook up he should only meet women through pick up joints.”
That’s ridiculous. I dated online for 10 years. Hooked up with LOTS of people who did not become my girlfriend. The answer is not to tell guys like me to STOP.
The answer is to tell YOU that a hook up doesn’t mean anything – so that YOU can make informed decisions about how you proceed. The answer is never in telling a GENDER to change.
Christine 43
Well, I often hear the advice not to hook up, because that will decrease the chances of developing a long term relationship. However, I frankly wish there was more advice out there about exactly how you’re supposed to cope with the lack of physical contact in the meantime, while waiting for that. It’s not as though a committed relationship can just be purchased through amazon at will, according to your specifications. I’m only human and it’s extremely difficult to go through long stretches of time with both no boyfriend and no physical contact. So I think a hook up between consensual adults is okay, as long as they just don’t attach any greater importance to it or have unrealistic expectations. I’ve also learned to only do that with men who I think are cute and fun, but who I don’t see as anything long term–so that I’m really not disappointed when they don’t call the next day.
SKG 44
Why the association of hooking up with inebriation? You can “hook up” without being drunk. In fact, you should be sober if you’re gonna hook up (or at least not falling-down stinking drunk)… otherwise the situation approaches rape.
“Hooking up” outside of a loving relationship is not for me, at this time, but it was part of my past. I think it was a necessary step from being an innocent and terrified virgin to being an experienced adult with more of a sense of what relationships are and should be, including the sexual component.
It served a purpose in my life, but it’s a phase I’ve outgrown. But yes, it was fun… in its way.
As long as everybody involved is being respectful, honest, and careful, then do what you want and have fun.
Fiona 45
Congratulations on the birth of your child Evan. Re hooking up, I think most women my age know it is going nowhere afterwards (having learned the hard way). Unfortunately, I don’t think a lot of younger women do just know that men who hook up never want more until they learn the hard way.
Mia 46
The occasional one night stand always worked for me – because those were so obviously hookups and I didn’t have to see them again. But sex with any guy whose not your boyfriend, who you have been and/or will see regularly is not something I and most women can handle . It’s not worth the emotional anxiety that follows.
starthrower 47
Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Peter 48
A track record of promiscuous sex does not improve marriage potential. (Age gap Peter).
Liz 49
Hooking up doesn’t work for me now into my thirties, two beautiful children, and a year out of my divorce. But once I started dating I can tell you it surprised me how frequent this it done. It was like lets do this and see if it works out. Emotionally I can’t hook up with someone I am dating and see where it goes. But this seems to be the lay-of-the land. Generally sex comes up 6-8 date, and there is a very large percentage of men that once you tell them you need to feel safe and in a relationship, they automatically run. Ugh. Dating. Gotta think good thoughts.
David T 50
Ah, Liz, there are men out there who are like minded. they are just rare. Your attitude means your potential partner pool is smaller, but I would encourage anyone I know to not compromise on whatever principles keep you safe and emotionally whole. Just have fun on dates 1-6 (or 1-8 or whatever) and enjoy them for what they are. While you are at it, keep kissin’ those frogs and someday. . . .
Fiona 51
What I have noticed is that there are a lot of women in their thirties hooking up and hoping that it will turn into something else. I have friends who still hope that these situations are going to turn into something more when they already know that it won’t. The question is why they are doing this when they want a relationship and they know that hook ups don’t lead to more. The answer is not that they are promiscuous women that like hook ups as Peter seems to think but rather than they can’t find a relationship with someone who is compatible and age appropriate and after a while they start getting lonely and they settle for hooks ups. Bottom line: on the singles scene there just don’t seem to be enough very successful or moderately successful single men in their thirties for all the very successful single women. As a result, there is now a lot of competition among very successful women for moderately successful men and a lot of those men now seem to be hooking up a lot because they can (which they may not have been able to do in the past when they were competing with more successful men). Unless she is very lucky that sadly seems to leave the successful thirty something single female with the option of an relationship with a man at the very bottom of the chain, a man in another generation, or the odd hook up. In those circumstances, a lot of them are hooking up to relieve loneliness – a recipe for disaster of course – but that is why.
Mia 52
I’m amazed that anyone over age 20-25 doesn’t understand that hooking up doesn’t lead to more. No one should be in their 30s still struggling with such issues unless perhaps they never had much experience when younger. The other thing I didn’t understand til now is that it doesn’t matter if you wait 6, 8, or 10 dates to have sex, if you don’t first clarify exclusivity and intentions.
Clare 53
It makes me quite sad to hear women who say they go on several dates with a guy, only to find out later that he’s not interested in having a relationship (I was thinking of you, Mia).
For me the clues are there quite early on, and well before you sleep together. These things stick out for me I must say, and are dead-giveaways. Things like:
* He’s reluctant to refer to it as a date - he calls it “hanging out” or it has a casual feel to it emotionally.
* He doesn’t seem keyed in to your response or concerned with impressing you
* He makes references on the date to being “independent” or needing a lot of space or time to do his own thing
* He makes comments like wants to make friends and see how things go
* He doesn’t ask you a lot of getting-to-know you questions
* For me a very definite giveaway (and I know there will be those who will disagree with me here) is not offering to pick you up and/or pay
* He freely references ex-girlfriends and close female friends early on
* Contact after the date is sporadic and low intensity
* There are quite long time lapses between dates, and he is often busy on “prime” nights (Friday and Saturday)
* Someone who is after a relationship with you will to a certain extent wait till the moment is right to have sex with you. Someone not interested in a relationship may very likely try to force it when it doesn’t feel completely natural.
Not an exhaustive list – maybe I’ll add more as I think of them!
For me, the biggest giveaway is the lack of emotional engagement/intensity. A man is never so emotionally open-seeming as when he is trying to court a girl he wishes to become his girlfriend. Men know that women want this to enter a relationship, and that goo-goo feeling they have for someone they’re really into helps them achieve it. Men who are just interested in you as a buddy treat you like one.
Bill 54
Generally from my experience. When I say experience is from all my male friends. The kind of women they would hook up with is the kind of women they wouldn’t ever take seriously. It is not because they are hooking up with them. They are way less desirable. Women who are way less desirable to men will often do things in order to lure him into spending them with her. “hooking up” is something all men will lower there standards tremendously in order to get a quick fix. This quick fix often times will give a man the confidence to go after a girl they desire.
Women are genetically picky the women who are single after a certain age are unable to compromise. They say they would/can but there actions are very different. Generally the older she becomes the pickier she becomes. Often times the only kind of attention these men will give these girl is easy sex.
Sex = Marketability
Karmic Equation 55
@Evan
First, congratulations on the birth of your son. He will have big shoes to fill to follow in his daddy’s footsteps. You are an awesome dating coach and I agree with you 100% on your advice and perspective. I actually did buy your book a while ago. Loved it and particularly enjoyed your wife’s advice on “mulligans” and your advice on “do nothing.”
I agree with you a 100% that no one has any obligation to state any intentions during a hookup. My point was really two-fold. Fold 1 (haha) – Stating intentions before sex is just plain awkward. When or how is it a good time to say talk about? At first base? Third base? When? There really isn’t a good time to have this talk “peri-sex”. Fold 2 – Assuming that this talk *is* someone’s obligation (I don’t believe it is) — then why is it the MAN’s obligation to state his intentions, but not the woman’s? I don’t get this at all.
To me, CEDING THE POWER TO MEN to dictate the nature of the relationship contributes to women’s feelings of being powerless or victims to men’s whims. I don’t believe in this. Women should have sex when they want to have sex period…And if women only want to have sex to push a relationship agenda, then DON’T HAVE SEX, until you ARE in a relationship or get rid of the agenda.
@Fiona
I’m curious as to what you define as successful/moderately successful? Same level of income or education as you?
I’m only asking this because, for some odd reason, “successful” has never been on my criteria for men. I guess feeling good around them, having fun, feeling cared for, is all that I look for…and there are PLENTY of guys out there that offer that. Of course, I do want him to be gainfully employed, but I don’t care if he’s working an hourly job while I’m in an exempt job. I don’t consider dating someone of a lower educational background or income level “settling”. My live-in LTR never knew what I made, even though he did know I made more money than him, but he never knew by how much. My current man doesn’t have a clue. We treat each other pretty evenly when we go out. But he’s cooked dinner for me a few times, whereas I have yet to cook for him, but have taken him out to nicer restaurants than he takes me. A bit of a reversal of roles. But it works for us. I appreciate his efforts to cook for me even though a few times its been too spicy or under/overcooked for me. I always told him it was delicious! And he continues to offer to cook for me, which is his way of showing he cares. And I love that!
Hooking up to relieve loneliness is really a bad idea, as you know. Your friends need to figure out other ways to NOT be lonely, like get a hobby that takes them out of the house and doing something social, where there are *available men.* This is key. Doing PTA or taking kids to their sporting events is not going to get them in contact with available men. They should try something they can become more skilled at the more they do it (like dancing or martial arts or sports). I highly recommend martial arts (“sausage fests” as one of my guy friends who is an instructor calls them…lol). Men should be the icing on the cake that is their life, not the “the cake.” They should be fulfilled and happy without a man. That is when they are the most attractive to men. Men, more than women, like to be challenged. Getting a woman who is happy without a man to love him is a challenge a lot of guys can’t resist. And if you are truly happy, your filter (good-guy-dar) works much better than when you’re feeling lonely so you’re more likely to find a good guy when you’re happy and a bad guy when you’re not.
@Clare
I had the opposite reaction of you to Mia’s dating travails. I think she may have inadvertently given off off-putting vibes…So the men COULD HAVE been on their way to a relationship, but something scared them off or turned them off. Sure, they gave her some nice sounding excuses, I’m not looking for a relationship, I’m not into Jewish women, blah blah. I remember when I was dating in college, I told a guy I couldn’t date him anymore because I couldn’t overcome my prejudice that he was black. I told him I really tried, but just couldn’t get over it. My real reason for not wanting to date him was that he was really really boring. And I didn’t have the heart to tell him that. Easier to let him think the problem was me than to hurt him with the truth.
Fusee 56
@Liz #49: “once you tell them you need to feel safe and in a relationship, they automatically run”.
When they run, that’s good! The worst ones stick around and fake interest or commitment in the hope of keeping their options open, an ego stroke, or easy sex. They are still plenty of men interested in stability, but they are lost in a large pool full of those who are not. It’s frustrating to realize how few men are actually interested in a stable relationship, but by screening them for their interest in commitment, they/we can opt out early before having used much of our time, emotions, and energy. We need to be conservative with our dating energy as we might have to screen through many men given how few are long-term-minded. Better opting out after 3-5 dates than after 13-15!
Therefore, I’d suggest to ask early (but not too early) what their goals are and pursue/opt out accordingly. As David T#50 says, “keep kissin’ those frogs and someday…”. Oh you do not even have to “kiss” ‘em. While doing the proverbial “making feel good” by being his best date ever, ask good questions in the proper tone and with the proper attitude. Move on until you meet someone deserving of your energy. A man interested in building something serious will show the right signs as Clare #53 says, and if he has just A clue about women, will not be offended or emasculated by your questions. They understand the difference between a non-specific/non-attached “Are you looking for a long-term partner?” kind of question and a desperate “Are you going to marry me?”. The ones who do not get it can opt out!
The point is not – as Evan says – to wish for men to change, but it is to screen them efficiently until you find someone who qualifies. You need to keep your energy high and avoid unnecessary burn-out/heartache. If having the desire to form a stable and happy relationship is your bottom line, make this common interest your #1 value in the screening process. But because it does restrict the dating pool severely, it pays to not restrict it any further with silly requirements such as height, income, hair, etc. The most successful man to the marriage-minded woman must be someone who wants (and is able to) form a solid, healthy, and happy long-term relationship. This is true SUCCESS. Income and height do NOT matter.
@Mia #52: “No one should be in their 30s still struggling with such issue”
Well we all struggle with different issues, depending on our specific experiences. Age has nothing to do with it. If you believe that at 30 you will magically stop struggling, I’d say good luck with that! Dating is hard, and managing adequately a good relationship often harder. Being happy single, having a good character, and being wise and self-controlled help a lot though.
Indeed, it does not matter on what date you have sex. If you care about reserving sex for special men who want to commit and who are actually promising for the long-term, then before spreading your legs you simply need to know:
1. whether they want a long-term partner
2. whether they like you enough to investigate a relationship with you
3. whether you like them enough as well
4. whether you both have enough values in common and solid relationship skills to make a relationship at all possible between the two of you.
Since it’s unlikely (and undesirable) that you will gather all of this information on three dates, it’s unlikely that sex will happen that early. But it is possible to get there in 10-15 dates (6-8 weeks). Been there, done that. What matters is not the passing of time, but what you DO with your time. I would actually claim that if it takes too much time it’s sign that interest or comfort with one another is not quite there. If you both are genuinely interested and gather promising information over the few first dates, you’ll want to meet more often and find out more. Not by rushing or becoming clingy, but simply by upgrading relatively soon from one short date/week to 2 longer dates/week.
@Clare #53: “For me the clues are there quite early on, and well before you sleep together.”
Totally agree with you! And to put it positively, here are some encouraging signs: he makes plans to see you again soon, he organizes dates that demonstrate some more extensive thinking and planning (not necessarily money!), he shows genuine interest in you: he asks questions and tries to find out the reasons behind your opinions, he remembers key facts and use them to surpise you at later dates, he does that over and over, etc etc. And you do the same in return! And for people doing the non-exclusive dating thing, well, he requests/agrees for commitment within 6-8 weeks and before sex. If it takes forever, it means he is not really interested beside keeping you as an secondary option, an activity partner or a possible booty call.
In a nutshell: FOCUS, EFFORT, CONSISTENCY. Before sex.
(sorry for the long comment)
Selena 57
@Clare #53
Good list!
Your last line, “Men who are just interested in you as a buddy treat you like one.” Is worthy of printing out and reviewing as necessary.
Mia 58
Clare – there is not necessarily a way to prevent this. I go with the flow for six weeks (not having sex) and see what happens. The only thing I could identify off your list was sporadic follow up ON OCCASION, not even all or half the time. It simply doesn’t feel good to me to ask/clarify someone’s intentions on the 3rd/4th date. How can you even know about readiness for commitment, red flags, and compatibility until at least 10 dates (going out a few times a week)? Why should every few dates you Go on always lead to a relationship? Also, if you don’t meet all your guys through online, not necessarily everyone you meet is on a focused mission for coupledom.
Fiona 59
Mia, these women do understand but they end up hooking up because their relationship options are so poor and years of being single do get to them sometimes. Then they always have a glimmer of hope that it will work out. Most of these women are also still very attractive so men do chase them.
Karmic, I am not personally interested in anyone who hasn’t at least been to university and achieved something when they were there. Why? I am academic and have come out in the top 5% of the population in everything I ever did, I have travelled the world, and I speak foreign languages. For me being able to connect on an intellectual level is absolutely essential. I know a lot of other women feel the same way so all these men on hourly jobs with no education and I really have nothing to talk about. I don’t feel good around them, just bored. I have alpha traits but I don’t want to be the alpha in a relationship. Deep down I think most women are like that. I know where that will most likely leave me – alone – but it is what it is. Not much I can do if the men at my level of education are taken.
Sue 60
Evan offers great advice, so I’m not so sure why every one argues with him when all he is trying to do is give us the truth about men so that we can make the best decisions for us?!
Fiona 61
I have to put my hands up and say that I just fell into the hook up trap with a friend that I have known for a while that I liked but I knew wasn’t ready for a relationship. I knew this upfront and thought I could handle it and it did feel good at the time. After the event however, I feel pretty awful because somehow it seems to have taken the lid off a well of feeling that I have been keeping trapped inside the pot that has now been released and has nowhere to go. I know I got what I deserved. After all, I knew what I was getting myself into. I am not feeling too good about myself after this and have just taken down my profile from match and decided to shut up shop until I feel better. Rationally, I would like to be able to handle hooking up better as it would make my life a lot easier to just hook up from time to time rather than keep up this seemingly never ending quest for a partner but there is still a small part of me that really wants to believe there is someone out there that is perfect for me. Rationally, I just don’t believe that person exists.
Karmic Equation 62
@Fiona
I’m really sorry you’re feeling bad about hooking up. Hooking up only makes you feel bad if you had expectations that don’t come to pass. If you had no expectations, other than to enjoy the moment, you wouldn’t feel bad.
Having sex sans relationship doesn’t make you a bad person or loose or morally corrupt. So please fight the feeling if those are your feelings.
If you’re feeling rejected because he wanted nothing but the hookup…then that’s a harder one to fight, but fight you must. Don’t feel rejected. Men aren’t rejecting you for not wanting more than a hookup with you. There is nothing wrong with YOU, just your expectations, unfortunately. Look at the positive instead. You were hot and sexy and he wanted you then. Remember that. Let go the expectations you had and remember that for that moment in time you were wanted as a beautiful woman. Period. Celebrate that.
If you’re suffering from oxytocin withdrawal, know that it’s just a chemically-induced high and in a few days, you’ll get over that. You state that you are an intellectual and, I presume, intelligent. Apply that intelligence to control your emotions.
I was Harvard-educated, so I’m no slouch in either intellect or intelligence. I’m just more in control of my emotions than most women because I *expect* that I can control my emotions and not let them control me.
Good luck. Really and truly, celebrate the beauty of the passion, and don’t focus on the aftermath. Don’t punish yourself for enjoying your sexuality.
Liz 63
Ugh Fiona…here with you. Just ended two months of dating someone in tears. He was still litigating his divorce (2 years in the mess). I should have known that given that emotional and financial draw he wasn’t 100 available. Oh, and on our first date he did say he “needed to learn to be on his own and enjoy the last 2 years his kids were at home.” But, a las he was very well suited for me… so I took a chance. I have this hope, zest and dreamy side that I can’t kick.
We dated blissfuly until Saturday, wherein after a wonderfully romantic and expensive dinner, followed by wine and chocolate, he uttered, you known how you told me you needed to feel safe to be intimate, I can’t do that right now, because I am so messed up from the divorce and loosing a partner of 25 years. Tears, ego shot to the heart, followed by him pleading to still be friends, and me having to tell him how much I liked him, but that for my hearts sake I could only see him when he was emotionally available to be my lover and best friend.
Fiona 64
Liz, you did the right thing by cutting him out is all that I can say. I completely understand how you got into the situation. I can only hope you feel better soon. Like me, you won’t make the same mistake again I am sure.
Karmic, I don’t need to hook up to know that men think I am sexy. I am always having to deal with inappropriate advances and normally it just annoys me. Unfortunately this guy was a friend and somehow in a moment of weakness I let a situation arise that shouldn’t have. I am not however going to be anyone’s hook up girl going forward. I have spent the last year doing everything to find a husband and failed and the fact that I allowed this situation to even arise tells me – just stop! So I am focusing on the person in my life who needs TLC – me – and then I am thinking of doing some volunteering work and men can look for their hook ups elsewhere.
Joe 65
@ Fiona: you said that you’ve come up in the top 5% of anything you’ve ever done. I can only imagine that comes out on your dates and the guys just end up thinking, “Oh, geez, what a topper.”
Fiona 66
Joe, I frankly couldn’t care less for your opinions which are generally not constructive. As you can see, I am no longer dating so frankly this is irrelevant.
Lucy 67
There’s one point I wish to make. I don’t see men who engage in hook-ups as using women purely and selfishly for their own personal gain (unless their intentions clearly don’t reflect in their actions). Where does the woman fit into this equation? In a healthy situation, both people are using each other and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Sure chances are that no person sees the other as someone with great relationship potential, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t respect each other and treat each other decently.
And a healthy person does not need a hook-up for validation or to feel sexy. However I’d say that if it’s been a while for me without dating (and I might have no desire for a relationship), then some kind of healthy involvement can be quite fulfilling. It certainly makes me look like less of a desperado because my hormones are in balance. It reminds me too that being single for me is a choice, until I find the right person. And recently I have decided to withdraw from that stuff because I don’t feel like it at the moment. It’s about making healthy decisions for you and not getting into situations you do not what to be in. All of that is within my control.
Karmic Equation 68
+1 to Lucy 67′s post!
Well said!
Liz 69
Lucy good for you. Withdrawing is so the healthy thing to do. Humans can’t be used as crutches. If only there were books on the when to hold them and when to fold them when dealing with someone is not 100% ready for something because of their past. Its hard for me to draw that boundary, its so arbitrary to say no I cannot see you, and then withdraw for some kind of specific time from someone’s life. But if you don’t, your sucked into that emotional crutch only to watch them fall in love when they are healthy. I have always wondered about the ones that it ends because of this, not the chemistry, lust, affection, or personalities. Those are the ones that hurt and make you question.
Fiona. Yeah don’t know if I could date someone so wounded. Even casually. Too much heart ache in the end. We are all colored by our past, but the inability to love is kinda of non-starter.
Lucy 70
Thank you, Karmic and Liz.
Well I used to be quite the idealist and in some ways I still am, except now I think that I can balance it out with some real world perspective. Well I bought myself some thinking time with the hooking-up and now I know for sure that a relationship is what I want. It really opened my mind actually. As I said in a previous post, I’ve found that men I’ve hooked-up with have treated me with more respect than previous boyfriends. I know that doesn’t say much about my relationship choices, but it also shows that people can’t be put in black-and-white boxes because of how they live their sexuality. I have not changed overnight. I’m the same old loving me. I was in a relationship with a man who frequently rejected me sexually and was a selfish lover. Then a few months ago, I had a brief fling with a man who really did care about my pleasure and really made me feel good. He’s not relationship material but being around him made me feel that there’s the possibility of something better out there. It took away some of my self-doubt as the previous boyfriend said it was my fault he could not get aroused enough to have sex with me.
I don’t find it difficult to draw the boundaries most of the time. And well, I would not get involved with someone who had stronger feelings for me than I had for him (or any feelings I did not share). Everyone deserves the best. But like you said Liz, it can be pretty arbitrary. You can’t choose someone you are too close to because it could ’cause issues, and yet you have to know enough about them to trust them. I have not been in any situations which were distressing or dangerous, but when you see people at their most vulnerable, it really does reveal a lot. See I’ve noticed that many are not as honest up-front as they could be. That takes a lot of self-awareness and confidence which some men (at least of my age; early 20′s) do not have, regardless of their outward persona.
Observer 71
I am old so I assume that I have experienced enough life to make some cogent observations. In reading these discussions regarding “hook ups”, it is my personal subjective observation that the conclusion of all of these discussions does involve casual herterosexual sexual intercourse. And, there is certainly nothing wrong with that! However, because of my 28 years of married life (and therefore sexual exclusivity to one woman) have I missed out on the stupendous news that Sexually Transmitted Diseases have disappeared off the face of the Earth?? If not, then it does seem to me that engaging in casual sex (with an unknown partner) could be a life threatening event! It is impossible to know if a person’s sexual partner is safe unless that person has the results of a recent medical examination by a urologist (for either male or female). And, even then, it usually takes up to six months for the symptoms of HIV to appear after first contact.
So from a perspective of “self preservation” it would seem to be a worthwhile effort to know the detailed “history” of a sex partner long before engaging in sex with them. Although that might lead to awkward and unromantic conversations, is it better to contract an incurable STD afterwards simply because one partner wanted to “believe” the other partner about their sexual history?
My other observation is my perspective on an agglomeration of some of the other commentators, specifically female, to this discussion topic. A number of them seem to have “passed their prime” and consequently lament their lack of a stable long-enduring relationship, but still seem to believe that they are yet “prime”. Let us be blunt; most of them seem to focus only on one topic in life: themselves! So why should it be surprising that they are alone in life (and probably permanently until the day of their death). Any “thriving” heterosexual relationship is a “two way street”! <– What an astounding comment! And, to paraphrase (poorly) what some of them have written here, “they want nothing to do with children”. Unfortunately for them, most Homo sapiens (including men) are biologically “conditioned” to want to reproduce. My condolences to them when they meet men who do want to reproduce. For the ones who are actually past their fertility, my naive speculation is that it should be much easier for them to meet men who are “somewhat” older than them for the simple reason that the vast majority of men past a certain age are not likely to be looking to make a new family with babies. Yet they still lament that they have not found “Mr. Perfect”.
I will contradict myself somewhat in my comment above because it is true that when I was well past my 43rd birthday, my wife and I were making our third child (she was past her 36th birthday).
One of these lamentors commented upon her intellectual, academic, and career achievements, indicating that she is in the “top 5%”; yet she is still (middle age??) alone. My point is not to demean her, but has she really looked in the physical mirror and the emotionally-mature mirror?
Fiona 72
Observer, first I would question what a man who has been married for 28 years is doing on a site that is aimed at helping successful, intelligent women find love esoecially as you do not seem to have much in the way of pearls of wisdom to offer. Second, I am amazed that you find it surprising that women actually talk about themselves and their experiences on such a site. Third, you sound rather ignorant regarding safe sex but perhaps they didn’t have condoms back in your day. In short, you just seem to be on here for the sole purpose of firing shots at single women. You speak about emotional maturity but that doesn’t sound very mature to me. You need not worry about demeaning me old chap. You were simply being mean to me. A person can only demean me if I allow them to do so.
Clare 73
Ugh, I agree with you, Fiona. Observer’s comment was pompous and mean. No idea what male posters like that are doing on this blog.
elli 74
Observer´s and Fiona´s comments are a typical example of people living in two different worlds – Observer in the old, traditional one and safe for him because he was brought up to think like he does; and Fiona living in a new one, which is still in the process of creation and doesn´t provide any safety as it is completely new. I must take Fiona´s side because she is more courageous than Observer, at least that´s my opinion.