Is Your Checklist Getting Too Long?
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It’s a fact that most of us have checklists describing the qualities of our ideal mate.
I’m not going to say whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I’m just going to acknowledge that it’s real. When you’ve been on the planet for close to 40 years, you probably have a pretty good idea about what you’re looking for in a man.
I don’t blame you for a second, and I’m not going to tell you which things you should give up in order to find the man of your dreams.
What I will do today is illustrate to you how even your simplest list of non-negotiable dealbreakers is the very thing that is keeping you from finding love.
Take it from a guy who has a pretty high sense of self-esteem and wanted a woman who was his equal and more: holding onto the idea of a person prevents you from seeing the real person inside.
Even though I’m not a big advocate of lists, I think an ideal mate checklist can be a useful exercise and teaching tool. But because I don’t want you to work too hard, I’m going to make your list for you. Please forgive me if I get a few things wrong. I’m a guy, after all. 
Even when you’re getting 17 out of 18 of your needs met, you’ll pick the ONE that makes you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You want a man who is:
Attractive
Honest
Intelligent
Kind
Funny
Financially Stable
This is entirely normal. Then again, you probably ALSO want a man who is:
Loyal
Family-oriented
Sexy
Generous
Interesting
Confident
Solid list, huh? Except the list gets longer when you really think about it…
Fit
Chivalrous
Charming
Ambitious
Tall
Creative
You like the fictional person that we’re putting together? I sure do.
I want to be him for Halloween.
In case you’re wondering, there is nothing wrong with this list.
Except that it can keep going and going and going. For each quality you add, there’s another justifiable reason that a man is not suited for you.
Maybe he’s got 17 out of 18 qualities, except he’s…
Not close with family. That’s a big one. After all, you’re tight with yours and you think it’s strange that he doesn’t enjoy spending time with his brothers every Thanksgiving.
Not funny. The ability to laugh is paramount, isn’t it? And even though this guy is perfect in every other way, that’s not something you can live without.
Not confident. He’s an amazing guy, but he just tries so damn hard to please that you can’t even respect him. If he just grew a pair, he’d be perfect!
Not tall. You can’t go out with a guy you can literally see eye-to-eye with. No matter how amazing he is. It just doesn’t make you feel feminine or turned-on.
Not sexy. You know what it’s like to feel lust and you just don’t feel it with him. You can’t go the rest of your life without that chemical rush.
We can continue, of course, but I think you see the point. It’s not that any of these desires are unimportant. It’s that, no matter what, you’re ALWAYS going to find a deal breaker.
Even when you’re getting 17 out of 18 of your needs met, you’ll pick the ONE that makes you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
End of relationship. Back to the drawing board.
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164 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Steve 1
I have a friend in her early 60s who has been a shrink for 30 years. About 3 years ago she decided she wanted a boyfriend. She signed up for the online dating sites. To my shock, she talked to EVERYBODY. She explained that her life experience taught what she wanted and that her professional experience taught her that what matters is how personalities fit together. She ended up dating a guy who is the exact opposite of all of her politics. They’ve had a few heated arguments when alcohol was involved, but have been inseparable for about 3 years.
I’ve got another friend in a similar situation. Her boyfriend is a great guy. She confessed to me one day, going through “her list” how he met none of those requirements. 5 years later she couldn’t be more in love. Their personalities fit together.
I’ve also had a few experiences where I met women who met everything on my list, were perfect on paper and had I carried a watch I would have been looking at all through my date.
I am a big believer in having things in common and making choices on objective criteria. However, I’ve learned through experience that dating rules are an art….not a science.
Gem 2
Very timely and valuable article! I just broke up with my long term on-again off-again man because I met someone new and want to give him a chance.
My break-up man has many of the qualities on my list, and the chemistry is amazing but what he lacked, and I could never accept, is his workaholism. He’s physically not around very often, and I don’t feel like a priority. When we’re together it’s wonderful. But we’re not together often. My desire is to share my life with someone, not share a small part.
This IS a deal-breaker for me but I have given him a few chances to meet me in the middle at least which is why we have been on and off for 2 years. I’ve dated other men in between but no one has held a candle to connection I felt for my guy. Maybe I never allowed it?
Done! No more! I’m moving on!
Insert new guy. He also has many of the qualities on my list but a different combination and I’m not sure of him yet. Can I love him? Will I feel the same spark? I don’t know yet but I am going to continue to focus on the wonderful qualites he has and not focus on the ones that are different or missing from what I thought I had to have because I just may find I don’t need them afterall.
He is successful, handsome, a gentleman, manly, polite, genuine, and even a little edgy which I always like in a man. Most of all, HE WANTS a relationship where he can spend quality time with his partner. He’s attentive and expressive. I’d be a fool not to pursue this because he looks a little different than my other man or my imagined man on paper!
Mia Wheeler 3
Hey Evan, great post. I have to say, I’m all about making a list. Not sticking to it necessarily, but making it, putting the energy out there, and then sticking it away and seeing what comes back. That’s what I did and I met the guy I married. He’s not everything on the list, but he’s many things on it. So he’s not my “type”, what’s so great about having a type? My type was having an accent, preferably English, Irish, etc., dark hair, slight build – any variation of Eric Bana really. So who did I meet? A big, burly Southerner. All American. Didn’t go to college, but is smarter than a lot of people who did. Not a crazy sense of humor, but makes me laugh. Not great with his parents, but love mine. And knew he wanted to marry me after our 3rd date. So you compromise. And sure, things come up and I think about our differences, but we’re going on 9 years married this month, and we are a great fit. All that matters at the end of the day is how you feel when you are with this person. All the “Irish” guys I met drank too much, were broke, and/or broken. While I would have liked having a married passport and excuse to visit abroad, it’s all worked out the way it was meant to. Being open to it is imperative because literally, he/she may be right in front of you. : )
nathan 4
I have been rejected for not making enough money, not being tall enough (apparently 5’11 wasn’t enough for one far shorter than that woman), and other such things.
My favorite, though, was the woman who, upon finding out I was 30 years old (this was several years ago), wrote back to me “You sound like a great match for me. We have so much in common. But I’m looking for a man who is my age, exactly. So I can’t go out with you.” She was 28 years old. I kid you not. I thought maybe I missed something, so I wrote back and asked if I read her right. And she responded by saying that I basically sounded like everything she was looking for, but that she had to have a man who 28, and that’s that.
It’s amazing what some people choose to place major importance on.
helene 5
The thing that frustrates me is that although I have a list of criteria I am looking for in a man, I don’t feel I’m looking for anything I ‘m not offering – its not like I’m 4ft2, 60lb overweight and unemployed and am looking to meet Brad Pitt! I’m intelligent – I’d like to meet a man who is intelligent. I’m financially stable, and generous with money – I’d like to meet a man who is the same. I’m physically attractive, funny, well travelled, and have “feminine ” qualities and abilities – I’d like to meet a man who is attractive. funny, well travelled and has “manly ” abilities. But WHERE ARE THEY?? Honestly. sometimes I think we single women have priced ourselves out of the market. When a woman finds herself single, she will very often launch into self improvement to be more attractice to a new mate. She keeps in shape, buys new clothes, develops her social network, takes evening courses, travels, learns new skills, reads, takes up tango and exotic cookery classes… but what do single men do? Play nintendo DS with their mates… or immerse themselves in mind numbing amounts of sport.
I recently tried dating a man who was “good on paper” even though I wasn’t madly attracted to him and he wasn’t the confident alpha male type. On the positive side, he was 46, like me, had no kids, which for me is a huge plus, was solvent and liked theatre, the arts etc.. rather than sports, which suits me very well.He was also crazy about me. On the negative side he was 20lb overweight, lacked confidence and was simply not “manly” enough for me – always fussing over his cat like an elderly lady, cried at the drop of a hat, always wanted to put a towel on the bed before we had sex, and other overly domesticated things of that sort. Because he seemed suitable in some respects, I stuck with it for 3 months. Although we didn’t have hugely strong chemistry he was physically attractive ENOUGH for me to be able to have sex with him, so that was OK, but what I found, as time went on, was that I simply wasn’t falling in love with him. He was all starry eyed about me and I just wasn’t able to reciprocate emotionally. I need a man I can ADMIRE in order to really fall for him, and I just couldn’t admire this man, with his tupperware and his towels. Its all very well to say give these guys a chance, but really, what’s the point if you are not able to fall for them? The sex doesn’t HAVE to be red hot, but surely the emotional, love connection has to be strong and reciprocal for a relationship to work? Sorry, but I’m going back to my list – no more wimpy Beta males for me! I feel like all I did was waste 3 months of my life on someone who was never of the right calible in the first place.
BeenThereDoneThat 6
Here is my list:
Same or similar values as me: honesty and have integrity for example. (Not to be confused as same interests or politics)
Have financial stability
be easy going
Have a sense of humor
I would like someone with 6 or 7 years as myself.
Weight – i wouldn’t be interested in someone obese. But a few extra pounds is fine.
Height - practically everyone is taller than me so this isn’t ever an issue
That is pretty much it. Except for the weight and age thing; area’s I’m already flexible (I have dated 12 years younger to 12 years older).
Nia 7
@Helene #5 – I nearly cried with laughter at the towel on the bed thing!! Seriously, up till then, I was thinking c’mon, give the guy a chance – but talk about a passion killer?! I know, I know – maybe you should/could have talked about it… But I don’t know – sigh – some days it does feel a bit dishertening when we try to put aside our lists and follow your advice Evan, but still keep getting into the same scenarios… I *really* do get the ‘drop the list’ thing, honestly – I’ve read (on your recommendation) th paradox of choice, and so, in order to not be a maximiser, have given people that I otherwise would not have, a chance… on my negative days I could call it lowering mystandards; on the positive, seeing the bigger picture/good stuff in people.
So my last long term relationship fitted the ideal (or my ideal) list, he was:
Tall,
Handsome,
Succesful,
Intelligent,
Financially very stable,
Charming,
Confident,
Definitely a man’s man/Alpha male
… you get the picture… he also said he wanted to commit to me for three and a half years, then one day woke up and said he actually didn’t ever want to get married or have children or commit to me in any other way.
SO I DROPPED THE LIST!!
And, after much reading of your blog, I went for some of the more ‘beta’ type males… and yes, they can be wonderfully attentive and lovely and sweet…
BUT (and yes, it did call for a big but!) – the last 4 (yes, that does read FOUR) guys I’ve dated, each of which have been for about three months each, have ALL had problems being men – and I do mean literally… all *4* have either not been able to ‘get it up’ whatsoever, or can get it up but not keep it up, or can keep it up but can’t ‘finish what they’ve started’… And whilst my self esteem has had to be pretty steely to not think I’ve somehow turned into some hideous creature that doesn’t know what she’s doing in the sack, up till I started moving away from my Alpha type males and towards the Beta ones, this was *never* a problem… So whilst I’m with you on the lists, I am starting to really worry that, whilst I can be more ‘relaxed’ about the fact that he may be a zillion times more sensitive than me, or more domesticated than me – I am really starting to worry that dropping the list means dropping the idea of actually dating a man… :-/
Erinlee 8
I think a checklist of wanted qualities can be a useful guideline, as long as there is room for change. Everyone compromises in some way so it would be foolish to think that you are the one unique enough that YOU won’t have to compromise. I’ve never really had a type, all the guys I’ve dated have been quite different from one another. As I grow with age, what I want changes as well. This last winter I did a lot of dating. I even went on dates with men that I knew I would not be interested in for a LTR. I did this because it helped hone my dating skills and it’s fun to date! Dating a lot also helped me recognize exactly what is was that I was looking for. I realized that some of the things I thought I wanted in a man, probably would not have been qualities that would lead to a successful long term relationship. Since I was having so much fun dating I told myself I would spend all summer meeting men and date date date! Enter J, I met him when out with friends through a mutual friend. We know a lot of the same people and even figured out we had been at some of the same functions and it’s quite amazing we had not met before this. Went out to eat with J, went on a couple awesome hikes and I was thinking we could be really good friends, but wasn’t ready to commit. I told him upfront that at that time I was only interested in dating around, and was not ready for a relationship, and that I would possibly be moving out of state at the end of the summer. He replied with, “ok, so I have all summer to win your heart”. I think that comment alone probably flipped the switch in my brain. His subtle confidence and persistence won me over. One month later, I committed myself to him and my summer of dating went out the window. He was one I would not have thought I would want to be in a relationship with, but I dated him anyway. It paid off, he’s absolutely wonderful and I’m extremely satisfied with him and excited about our future. I never would have found him if I hadn’t opened myself up to dating outside my ‘guideline checklist’. Step outside the box once in awhile, you’ll never know if you don’t try, and trying never hurt anyone.
NN 9
I have a list of important qualities:
sexy
ethical backbone
sexy
free
sexy
imaginative
sexy
interested in me
and did already say: hot and sexy?
What do I need a man for, unless I want to have hot sex with him?
Without sexual attraction so that I am turned on, I will feel bored or worse even turned off when I think of sex with him, so there is no relationship potential to be built.
I have tried it like #5 and #7.. I will not rape myself to get a relationship or company of opposite sex. I know that non-attraction won’t change, it just turns into suffocating yaiks feeling. The man in question will be another unnecessarily hurt man because I had to turn him down.
It is better to stay away from those who are no-gos from the word go than expect non-attraction to change.
No sane woman starts a relationship with a man in order to change him.. why would you date a man if you need to change yourself to find him attractive?
Carrie 10
Wow..great comments everyone. Yes Evan we must be careful of the lists. I had a great list…it included Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Hugh Jackman and others….that didn’t work out so well! ahahhahhahahhahhah I have been engaged 3 three times, married twice and divorced twice. So talking about changing “the list”? That happened after each firey accident. I have been and fell in love with the ones I least expected too and with the ”one” that actually was the most impressive and wanted me as well. That was a shocker but as usual anything to good to be true usually is. Unfortunately I am in the most uncomfortable of situations. I am not late 20′s to early 30′s and want kids…..nor…am I a super hot cougar with alot of money. Men my age want the younger women and the younger men want older women with some cashhhh!
So I decided no more lists….just live my life without one. It’s wierd what is attracted to me now…is the complete polar opposite of who I think would be attracted to me. As opposite as if Brad Pitt wanted to date ex first lady Barbara Bush…..we’re talking that opposite. It’s frightening. E-Harmony set me up with some man who looked like the next unibomber. It actually looked like a mugshot. Mountain man looking like he was dirty and smelly self professed slob when I put on my profile neat freak. Hahahhahhahah…I laughed so hard then cried. I have tried many avenues…over the last 3 years. I decided to focus on myself….and if someone comes along in the interim great..if not I am just going to live my life happily enjoying my family, friends, and pursuing a new career. Sometimes it’s best just to let go and grow in confidence and become secure by ones self. This is just me…..my plan only! Wishing the best to all with a the list!
Michael 11
Maybe the problem with the term “dealbreaker” is that this is not a deal being negotiated at all in a dating situation. You don’t say, “if you’ll make yourself taller, and I make a little less money, we have a deal.” The man is going to remain the same height and presumably the woman won’t make less money to make someone happy. It isn’t even like buying a car. There you may like the basic car, but you can choose colors and options, etc. With people, you better like what you see because it won’t likely morph into something else. So, what to do? Find a better paradigm or be continually unsuccessful. LOL.
helene 12
Nia #7 – can’t believe I did this but amazingly, I forgot to mention that on top of everything else the towel guy couldn’t get it up either the first 4 times we tried to have sex! He then in desperation got some viagra and that certainly did the trick, but I agree, this seems to be a B male phenomenon – alpha males don’t really have performance anxiety, they’re so convinced their performance will be so utterly magnificent that its never a problem.
“Dropping the list means dropping the idea of actually dating a man” …. sadly, I wonder if this is true. At the end of the day, the point of having criteria is to end up with someone you like and who suits you – if you drop your criteria, you might as well say you could just date and marry ANYONE. I know I could have married towel guy if I’d wanted to …. I reckon if I’d stayed with him we could have been engaged by christmas. The irony is I actually WANTED to fall for him, given the no kids/financially stable etc..etc… stuff… but I just DIDN’T. How do you admire someone you just…don’t admire??!
Evan Marc Katz 13
NN – I can only imagine the millions of elderly couples who managed to build happy lives together over 40 years, having this conversation with their curious thirtysomething children…
“Mom, what’s the secret to your relationship to Dad? How did you make it work for so long?”
“Well, Ashley, your Dad is the hottest, sexiest man ever. He has an incredibly high libido, he goes down on me like a champ and he has the endurance of a stallion.”
This conversation has never taken place. And not just because it’s inappropriate.
Lisa 14
Evan, thanks for the laugh! My parents have been married for 42 years (they are hardly elderly, though, at 62 and 61). My mom said my dad had integrity and she knew he would be a loyal husband and father. And he is- we couldn’t ask for better.
Is it any surprise that the marriage rate is steadily declining?
helene 15
With the greatest of respect to our host, I have to say, Evan: “Spoken by someone who has a good sex life.” I’ve heard it said that if the sex is good, its forms 10% of the relationship. If its bad, its 90%. I can testify to this. Bad sex takes over. A poor sexual connection blights the entire relationship. If sex is functioning well, couples in those relationhips barely give it a second thought, and do not attribute the success of their relationship to sex. They cite many other factors as being what they love about each other and what keeps them together, and in many senses this is true, but take away the good sex and replace it with a fraught, miserable dysfunctional sex life, and all that other stuff becomes irrelevant. Through good times, and even more importantly through bad times, a couple who can climb into each others arms for comfort and pleasure at the end of the day, whatever else may be crashing around them in daily life, can sustain their love and their bond – replace this with a stressful, distant, frustrating scenario every night and its just not feesable to keep going. Whilst sexual attraction and connection is not sufficient to sustain a relationship, it is still a very necessary first step. Throw away what you want from your list but don’t throw away that!
Evan Marc Katz 16
@Helene – I never said sex didn’t matter. I said that if you’re going to make it the most important aspect of your relationship, you’re probably going to have a tempestuous, frustrating, incompatible relationship. The person with whom you share the greatest sex and the greatest attraction is not necessarily the greatest long-term partner. To this, I can testify!
BeenThruTheWars 17
Here are some qualities from my list that seemed CRITICAL back when I was dating:
He can’t be a smoker or party too much (I’m a straight arrow), and needs to be fit and in shape (even though I’m not!)
He has to like to read, be intellectually curious, keep up with current events and popular culture.
He should be ambitious, competitive, politically liberal, compassionate toward the less fortunate and want to make a difference in the world.
Guess what? I didn’t get ANY of those things in my husband of 5.5 years. And with the exception of the smoking/partying thing, we don’t have issues over any of it. I got enough other things on my list (intelligent, loves cats, doesn’t want kids, non-religious, faithful/trustworthy, sentimental, romantic, gorgeous, tall, fabulous companion, from a good family, loves live theater, fun to hang out with, won’t make me a sports widow, creative/musical, etc. etc.) all in one man that I was ecstatic! And more than happy to “settle” in the areas where he wasn’t precisely what I was looking for. (He had to do some “settling” with me, as well; I’m overweight, much shorter than he is, 11 years older, not spontaneous, don’t party, etc. etc.) But we clicked like crazy and still do.
I read somewhere that if the other person is 80% of what you’re looking for, consider yourself lucky and go for it. (I’ve also read to go for it with only 51%, but that sounded like a recipe for misery.) When you meet the “right” person, if you are both mature and sufficiently motivated to be together to be able to accept each other’s flaws, that, to me at least, is the recipe for long-term happiness.
RH 18
@ Helen-Just wondering if any of the beta males tried Viagra or such?If not did they get physicals? if they refused to do either then yes, It’s time to move on. Everyone has “down times” but if the guy is not willing to try and improve the situation then forget it!
@ EMK-I absolutely agree.
Karl R 19
helene said: (#5)
“The thing that frustrates me is that although I have a list of criteria I am looking for in a man, I don’t feel I’m looking for anything I ‘m not offering”
While it’s human to feel that way, it’s a completely impractical way to date.
I’m an intelligent man, and I like intelligent women. It would only seem fair that my partner should be close to my intellectual equal.
In doing so, I could rule out 98% (or more) of all potential partners.
I’m also a good dancer, so I find it extremely convenient if my potential partner shares my passion for this hobby. And since I’ll end up dancing more often with her than other women, I’d like her to be good enough so I actually enjoy dancing with her (instead of just tolerating those dances). I put a lot of time into my dancing. It seems fair that a woman should be able to keep up with me on the dance floor.
If you click the link in my name (it’s a YouTube video), you’ll get an idea of my dancing ability.
A small percentage of women are my intellectual equals. A smaller number match my skill on the dance floor. If you take the number of women who are my equal in both areas … it’s a really tiny number.
Why should I have to accept less than I’m bringing to the table?
helene said: (#5)
“Honestly. sometimes I think we single women have priced ourselves out of the market.”
I could try to date women who are my equals, both intellectually and on the dance floor. I’ve managed to meet a few (in a city with a population of millions). One is married. Two live in other cities. One is a single mother. Another thinks I’m too short (she’s 6’2″).
If I cling to those standards, than I have priced myself out of the market.
helene, do you meet my standards? If not, is it your fault for being unable to measure up? Or is it my fault for setting unrealistic standards?
helene said: (#5)
“When a woman finds herself single, she will very often launch into self improvement to be more attractice to a new mate. She keeps in shape, buys new clothes, develops her social network, takes evening courses, travels, learns new skills, reads, takes up tango and exotic cookery classes…”
Of the 9 things you mentioned, only three seem relevant to me (largely because I’m a dancer who enjoys ethnic food). To most men, 8 of the 9 things are your list don’t qualify as improvements.
If I want to discuss books, I’ll spend an afternoon with my buddies who have read many of the same books. It’s much easier than insisting that my fiancée share my taste in literature.
If you’re taking evening classes, it makes you less available on weekday evenings. The classes enhance your career potential, but men date women, not résumés.
I don’t care what clothes my fiancée wears. I’m more interested in seeing her without them on.
How does travel qualify as self-improvement? I see it as entertainment (just like playing sports or Nintendo). And unless you’re an exceptional storyteller, I’ll be just as bored listening to you talk about France as I will be listening to a guy talk about softball or Guitar Hero.
It’s easy to see how you’re overpricing yourself. You’re taking a number of traits that have little or no value to men, and you’re placing a very high value on them.
You know what a lot of men hear when you talk about being well-traveled? We hear that you like to t$r$a$v$e$l. You’re not increasing your apparent value if a man believes you’ll be draining his bank account with your hobbies.
My fiancée is smart, but she’s not my intellectual equal. She’s become a much better dancer since we started dating, but she’s not my equal yet. But I am perfectly happy with her because I don’t measure her value based upon how she compares to two of my strongest traits.
You can complain that it’s unfair that men don’t measure up to you, or you can accept that it’s ineffective to insist that they do.
hunter 20
The few 40-50 year marriages that I know, forgave each other many, many times, throughout the marriage……….
Laura 21
Great sex comes from a great emotional connection and starts way before you hit the bedroom. If you don’t have great sex, look elsewhere in the relationship for the problem!
My “Will Not Tolerate” list is way longer than my “Must Be” list. The Will Not Tolerate allows me to pass on men quickly, usually upon first meeting or first date!
The Must List:
Product of intact two-parent family
Strong ties in the community
Has property and lives in the country
Friendly toward horses and cattle because I have them
and I won’t get rid of them for a man again.
I have an awesome man, we’ve been in WOW with each other since the first time we met 7 months ago. He is a man of integrity, known for his honesty, fine craftmanship and good business practices. We saw each other for 2 months before he kissed me. We make out a lot! We won’t be having sex until his house is built. We’ve had misunderstandings and we’ve resolve them, learning how each other behaves with stress and insecurity. We love the same things.
He is an alpha male, running crews on two farms, a construction company and building his own house. When there is a problem between us, or I have a problem, he DEALS and it’s resolved quickly. He hasn’t said the L word, but he shows me all the time. I know he has a sensitive heart, I’ve seen tears in his eyes although he looked away so I wouldn’t see. Above all, he’s a gentleman.
Yet I never would’ve looked at this adorable man had I used the list held over from my younger years. I counted him as a possibility before meeting him because I knew his dad through business, so I knew he qualified for my short list of “Must Be.” I
I have far “hotter,” more sophisticated, younger men hitting on me all the time. They’re all rejects.
I’m glad I deconstructed the small box built by that endless list, it brought nothing but heartache.
Teresa 22
I’d rather live with another dealbreaker than sex. the last 4 years of my marriage were sexless. It is easy to say sex is not that important of course until you actually live it.
Jennifer 23
Laura, I’m curious about why you won’t have sex until his house is built. Do you mean until you move in with him there?
Laura 24
He doesn’t want to move forward with sex until his house is finished. He is staying at his mom’s house since his house burned down last winter. I have my house which was my marital home, my teen daughter lives with me. My house has never been home to me, I bonded with the land, not the house. I understand this man not wanting to make love to me in my ex’s bedroom, that’s the kind of man he is.
Meanwhile, we make out for hours. First it was in the hay barn listening to the rain on the tin roof. We kept getting interrupted by hired hands, hay customers and even his mother. (teenage flashback!) Then his greenhouse, but his cat got jealous and obnoxious. There are walls and a roof on his house, we make out in the kitchen, the bedroom or the living room. WE GET INTERRUPTED THERE!
It isn’t all making out, either. We walk across the meadow to the river, talk to the cows, inspect the experimental trees, watch the ducks, eagles, elk, raccoons and enjoy the peace. He is most content in his house with his arms around me looking out the window openings seeing another calf be born. We talk and we laugh and I tell him how scared I am sometimes.
He has said things that lead me to believe he will be asking me to live at his farm in his house. When I ask, “Huh?” He says, “Nothing.” He hasn’t asked me yet and I don’t know how I will answer. I don’t know if it will be a marriage proposal or a shack up offer. It’s his in his time. The only thing concrete he has said is there is more when the house is finished.
All I know is the most romantic time in my life is with him. His smile lights up my world and he just glows. He does it for me, he can make me beg for it and no other men are willing to do that. I love him loving on me and I trust him enough to let him love me. I trust him to be the man in this relationship. He wants to wait for the house. We’ll wait for the house.
J.A. 25
@Nia and Helene:
No offense but your posts reek of arrogance. I don’t know how old these guys were that couldn’t get/stay hard or finish but that sort of thing is fairly normal, and I don’t think it’s a alpha male/beta male issue. I’m sure Evan would agree with me here…it’s funny how all this pressure is on us men to perform and get and keep it up and the women have no pressure at all and can just lay there and be critics. Sex is a 2-way street. It’s not a performer/judge situation. Maybe that’s why a lot of guys have trouble getting it up the first couple oftimes with a new girl because the girl is judging his performance rather than just having a good time. I’ll admit it- when I first started having sex with my current gf, the first couple times I had ‘performance’ issues, but they stopped because she’s a nice girl and non-judgemental and didn’t make me feel bad about it. Now we have a great sex life and neither of us have any complaints;) I bet if given the chance I can do more things in bed than any of these ‘alpha males’ you love. Most ‘alpha males’ when you break them down are actually insecure and not ‘manly.’
RH 26
@J.A.- Amen Brother!!!!
Annie 27
@25
I tend to agree with your alpha male comment. They actually do come across as insecure to me…at least the ones that seem overtly “alpha”. It’s the quiet confident ones, that show their vulnerabilities…those are the real lions underneath
And yes, a little less harsh judgement on the erection concerns. What if you couldn’t relax enough to have an orgasm the first couple of times for some reason? What if a man said “Oh she isn’t sexual because she can’t orgasm on demand…NEXT”…
I hear of men making similar comments. If a woman won’t put out, or go off like a freight train straight away, she must have sexual issues. It’s like there are all these damaged people, judging the next encounter even more ferociously than the last…damn defense mechanisms
Jennifer 28
Laura #24
Thank you for coming back to clarify
hunter 29
J.A., You are right, most women don’t know how to keep us up…..and longer in bed…..
Laura 30
We all want sex, but jumping into sex before any trust and intimacy is established is going to cause performance anxiety for the man. I believe men need trust and intimacy too, unless they’re ass clowns performing only for themselves.
Maybe I’m wrong.
Gem 31
Helene has a good point in #5:
I need a man I can ADMIRE in order to really fall for him, and I just couldn’t admire this man, with his tupperware and his towels.
I think many if not most women want to feel this way about their man.
So whatever the personal qualities are, of any given man, which allows a woman to fall for him doesn’t matter, so long as compatible people find each other.
But I’m with Helene, I just couldn’t fall for said man either. His difficulty with his erections is just one small piece. The towels on the bed, the crying at the drop of a hat, the coddling of the cat. Just not enough masculine energy for me (not even close). And plenty of masculine energy isn’t something I’m ever crossing off my list.
But hey, there’s a lid for every pot and he’ll find a woman perfect for him just the way he is.
J.A. 32
Thank you Laura…I agree.
Nia 33
JA – I *clearly* pushed a button for you… And you made it clear why…. My apologies, it was not my intention to offend. I would appreciate if you went easy on the judgement though – in all 4 cases I was very, *very* gentle when these men had issues – I do know how much of a sensitive issue it is for men (and women) – and so didn’t go stomping in there with size 11′s… I could have gotten annoyed, I could have made them feel inadequate/like there was something wrong with them, I could have turned it around on to me and gotten upset that they thought there was something wrong/unattractive about me… I could have. I didn’t. I reassued them it didn’t matter, I asked what they liked / turned them on, to the guy who said he liked things to go slow and build up, I spent two hours massaging him (non-sexually) and teasing and kissing, to the guy who said he liked head, I gave head, I reassured I was fine with just playing and not having actual sex, I patiently waited for the guy who wouldn’t ever acknowledge there was a problem to do so – and empathized /went along with each new excuse (I’m tired, I took painkillers earlier, I drank a beer…), to the nutrition guy I said I’d help them figure out ways to ‘naturally’ help through diet/supplements – then spent hours looking stuff up, at his request, only for him to then tell me he didn’t have time to read it… What I’m trying to point out here is I feel I put in my fair effort of trying… But each time to no avail… And my point was, in 15 years of dating (the last 14 of which I went for ‘alpha male’ types) this didn’t happen to me. Co-incidence? Possibly. Mean much? Possibly not. I’m gerting the impression you thought I was saying there was something awful about beta male types – I’m not – I’m genuinely trying to give them a go after fully accepting that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome rings true… But this is new to me, and I need a little reassurance too; that a life with a beta male is not going to lead to me feeling like I have to be his mamma and soothe him into wanting to have sex with me… Forgive me if that offends, I just feel it shouldn’t be like that.
SS 34
@Karl R 19
If I want to discuss books, I’ll spend an afternoon with my buddies who have read many of the same books. It’s much easier than insisting that my fiancée share my taste in literature.
If you’re taking evening classes, it makes you less available on weekday evenings. The classes enhance your career potential, but men date women, not résumés.
I don’t care what clothes my fiancée wears. I’m more interested in seeing her without them on.
How does travel qualify as self-improvement? I see it as entertainment (just like playing sports or Nintendo). And unless you’re an exceptional storyteller, I’ll be just as bored listening to you talk about France as I will be listening to a guy talk about softball or Guitar Hero.
It’s easy to see how you’re overpricing yourself. You’re taking a number of traits that have little or no value to men, and you’re placing a very high value on them.
You know what a lot of men hear when you talk about being well-traveled? We hear that you like to t$r$a$v$e$l. You’re not increasing your apparent value if a man believes you’ll be draining his bank account with your hobbies.
I’ve said this multiple times on this board (and others), but understanding the male mindset on this topic above probably made the biggest positive impact on my dating life.
I’ve found that some of the worst advice that women give to each other in regards to dating is to fill up one’s schedule with activities. The idea is supposed to be that a man will love a woman who is full of energy and living life, rather than sitting around and waiting for “him.” While I do believe that men like a woman with a fulfilling life, that doesn’t mean he wants a potential partner to be involved in a million activities!
No man has ever asked me if I had gourmet cooking skills. As long as I’m capable of putting a meal on the table (which could mean boiling pasta, heating up sauce from a can and microwaving some vegetables), then that’s good enough. Oh, and the men I dated were able to do the same.
Men with a good sense of intellectual curiosity have liked that I have shown an interest in travel and have traveled in the past, but being “well-traveled” didn’t make me more of a catch to them. And no, they didn’t want to hear about my year in Spain/France/Portugal and see my photo albums, even if they had been to the same countries themselves!
Clothing? Well, my husband likes it when I look nice when we go to a fancy event. Otherwise, as long as I have some decent-looking, flattering shirts, pants and skirts, he couldn’t care less about my wardrobe in general. When I did buy new clothes for dating purposes, I just went to JCPenney or an outlet and bought a few nice sweaters and skirts from a clearance rack. Not much of a major investment.
And yes, I cut back on the activities once I realized that I was cancelling dates or unable to set dates in the first place because all of these supposedly self-improving activities actually took away from time I could have used to actually date! So I simply focused on one or two things that I liked to do and got rid of the excess activities that didn’t necessarily add value to my life (whether personally or in terms of my potential appeal to a mate), cut DOWN on solo or girlfriends travel and actually stayed around town more so I could have time to cultivate a relationship.
To this day, I hear some of my male friends talking about a woman they know, find attractive and would consider dating, but she posts every single thing she does on Facebook and they say they don’t even know where they would fit into her life. One day it’s a political organizing meeting, the next day it’s a work-related “networking” social event, the next day it’s volunteer work, then it’s girls night out, then it’s a vacation, then yoga/pilates/zumba… you get the picture.
SS 35
Oh, and to address the actual post, the best advice I’ve heard about checklists is that “must-haves” or “dealbreakers” should be no more than three things. Others can fit in the “nice to have” list, but a potential partner shouldn’t automatically be eliminated because he doesn’t have one of the “nice to haves.”
The man I married does not share my political views (and I used to make shared political views a “must have”), is not over 6′ (but he’s still much taller than me), is not “fit” (although nowhere remotely close to obese), is not “charming,” but is sweet, kind, honest and caring. The things I thought were super-important, I found in other men… and those relationships did not work.
When I trimmed the checklist, I found myself falling in love with someone I probably would have rejected after the first date just a few years ago.
Joe 36
Amen, SS. The ladies who Evan helps with his services seem to be generally older than 30, and barring cougar-hunters, most of the gents who are after ladies like that have been around the block themselves once or twice. They’re usually not looking for someone who can cook better than they can, or who have been to more foreign lands than they. A guy who’s been around that long can cook for himself, and for others, and has been to different places.
Jadafisk 37
“I’ve found that some of the worst advice that women give to each other in regards to dating is to fill up one’s schedule with activities. The idea is supposed to be that a man will love a woman who is full of energy and living life, rather than sitting around and waiting for “him.” While I do believe that men like a woman with a fulfilling life, that doesn’t mean he wants a potential partner to be involved in a million activities!”
I thought that they involved themselves in these activities in the hopes that they would meet men with which they shared qualities and interests. Going outside of the more well-worn venues for meeting dates isn’t beneficial?
Re: Traveling. There are men in other countries. Lots of them. Women who travel get an opportunity to meet them that women who don’t, well… don’t. Due to some cultural differences, the men may be family-focused at a younger age and/or be more interested in commitment. There are also variations in piety/lack thereof, educational attainment level, gender role conformity/non-conformity, beauty standards, percentage of singles in a certain age range, etc, that may also expedite the process/increase a woman’s odds of finding an appealing partner. There’s native residents as well as fellow travelers and/or expats who have an interest, affinity or tie to the culture. If a woman doesn’t take advantage of her time abroad, it can be merely a red flag for budget-minded single men upon her return, but it certainly isn’t a given that it would be pointless.
“…it’s funny how all this pressure is on us men to perform and get and keep it up and the women have no pressure at all and can just lay there and be critics.”
But that’s utterly false. There’s a ton of pressure on women to look perfect and be the freakiest freak to ever freak… without being seen as a freak.
“At the end of the day, the point of having criteria is to end up with someone you like and who suits you – if you drop your criteria, you might as well say you could just date and marry ANYONE.”
I do wonder. I mean, isn’t this person supposed to be your *friend*? If he’s less physically attractive and adept in bed than you’d prefer/are used to, the other aspects (intellect, personal philosophy including but not limited to religion and politics, interests) would GAIN importance. Those aspects determine who people voluntarily choose to be around in non-romantic situations. There’s got to be more than “he wants a commitment, he’s a good person, and he ardently pursues you.”
Teresa 38
now it seems women have to limit their interests and acitivities to those that will help her catch a man?!??!
So if a women likes to travel she better not talk aboutit because then men might get bored or worse yet think she’s a goldigger geez. I love to travel I don’t do it to impress anyone. If I ever was to be in relationship again it would be nice if my companion shared my love of travel. My ex h did not like to travel unless it involved lots of alcohol consumption so I traveled with family or friends.
I have other interests/activites I dunno I don’t think of them in terms of how they effect my ability to date or have a relationship. I am not going to suddenly drop everything if a man was to come into my life anymore then I would expect him to give up sports, golf, car clubs or whatever he was into,
Chivon 39
@helenbe #5
I used to be like you, so I’m going to say this honestly….
I’m physically attractive, funny, well travelled, and have “feminine ” qualities and abilities – I’d like to meet a man who is attractive. funny, well travelled and has “manly ” abilities.
It’s time for you to stop analysing men as if they are a bag of qualities. They’re not. They’re human, and part of being human is to be fallible, make bad choices, have flaws, quirks, etc. Would you date someone with the same perfectionistic, self-entitled expectations ie you?? I don’t think so, cos it would be so tiring to need to be perfect all the time!
HAPPINESS NEEDS TO BE FOUGHT FOR. YOU need to be responsible for your own happiness; YOU need to PULL YOUR OWN WEIGHT in your own life. That’s the simple truth. It’s an uncomfortable truth, but please face it.
If a man is good – ie treats you well in spite of his other flaws ‘not manly enough’ – give him a chance. Don’t blame your lack of good men if you’re not even looking for a man, cos it sounds like you want someone who is your TICKET to unconditional love and happiness, and not a partner (a real life person) to build a life with. And it’s such a tall order to be that ‘ticket’, no man can possibly do that for you. Unless he’s God.
She keeps in shape, buys new clothes, develops her social network, takes evening courses, travels, learns new skills, reads, takes up tango and exotic cookery classes… but what do single men do? Play nintendo DS with their mates… or immerse themselves in mind numbing amounts of sport.
I agree with KarlR #19 on this – the activities you’ve listed above aren’t exactly increasing your ‘datability’. I mean, it’s good that you have many talents and interests, but they are time-wasters cos 1) they take up your free time and do not expose you to more single, available men (read?! travel to a foreign country?! cookery?!! how many single avaialble men are there in these classes??). You’re trying to be what you think is ‘perfect’, but have you ever considered that what a man, (and a woman) wants is someone you can trust, and makes you happy, someone who will be a great father/mother, someone who want on your team, you want in your afmily? I think fulfilling these criteria are more important than….say how well you cook or dance or how many books you’ve read.
I recently tried dating a man who was “good on paper” even though I wasn’t madly attracted to him and he wasn’t the confident alpha male type.
Being bitter & negative doesn’t help, it just keeps you in the frame of mind where you’re constantly on the lookout to avoid the next man who’s going to let you down. Why not focus on looking for someone who can make you happy? I say if he can do that, he’s worth a second shot, list or no list.
Also, please be brave enough to look beyond the surface, and NOT to dismiss the fact that there are GOOD men out there. Not all men who don’t meet your stringent criteria are flakes, and not all men who do meet your criteria are great men.
Live a little. Toss your list in the trashcan and just go with your gut for a change.
jack 40
It amazes me how many women act as though the universe owes them the “man of their dreams”. Long lists of must-have attributes are the sign of someone who thinks of men as some sort of consumer product that one orders up, and returns if they are less than 100% satisfied.
The problem is that the male desire for female companionship diminishes with time, even as female attractiveness wanes.
Most men desire female companionship. But not at any price. It is sad to see women entering their 40s who keep adding to the checklist instead of subtracting from it.
NN 41
I have not met an older couple that is satisfied – they just have seemed to give in and both they do their own thing, and die alone in a “relationship” as sort of room mates – as they chose wrong to begin with someone who is secure? Without proper good sex life that has left women wanting for generations here.. I am not willing to give in to that yet to get a man.
And secondly… Difference between men and women is out. Almost all men get O every time. Women don’t and I just don’t see the point why I should settle.
I have never ever had sex just because someone is hot, I need to trust him enough to answer the next question “would I loan that man 1000 euros without second thoughts”.. when answer is no, then I don’t.
Which why I have passed all the hottest ones? So I don’t know what you are talking about, as you say that those relationships don’t work.
I have never tried that yet, but I guess I should… for not to miss that experience what all talk about so much =).. I guess I can handle that crash at the tender age of 40+ as I have survived the end of relationships with those non-attractive men too.
SS 42
@Jadafisk 37
I thought that they involved themselves in these activities in the hopes that they would meet men with which they shared qualities and interests. Going outside of the more well-worn venues for meeting dates isn’t beneficial?
It did work that way sometimes! There were other activities that I took on for the purpose of meeting new people, single men in particular.
I think there’s a difference between what you’re mentioning and the phenomenon I was speaking of. I like to run, for example, and I frequently joined running clubs for the social camaraderie and yes, the chance to meet single men.
But if someone suggested that I take a gourmet cooking class, for example, and I had no interest in doing so, I was not going to do it simply because I was single and had Wednesday nights free. Plus, maybe a cute guy from the running club wanted to meet up on Wednesday night for a date, and oops, darn, I’m busy that night because of that cooking class I’m taking. Oh, and I’m working on Thursday… and going out of town on Friday for a wedding and won’t be back until Sunday. Wanna try next week? Except for Wednesday, of course!
With me having a job as well that had me working all sorts of haphazard hours, the scenario above happened quite a bit to me (and friends too in similar situations).
I think the idea that a woman becomes more appealing to a man the more activities she has on her plate is misleading.
Re: Traveling. There are men in other countries. Lots of them. Women who travel get an opportunity to meet them that women who don’t, well… don’t. Due to some cultural differences, the men may be family-focused at a younger age and/or be more interested in commitment. There are also variations in piety/lack thereof, educational attainment level, gender role conformity/non-conformity, beauty standards, percentage of singles in a certain age range, etc, that may also expedite the process/increase a woman’s odds of finding an appealing partner. There’s native residents as well as fellow travelers and/or expats who have an interest, affinity or tie to the culture. If a woman doesn’t take advantage of her time abroad, it can be merely a red flag for budget-minded single men upon her return, but it certainly isn’t a given that it would be pointless.
I certainly don’t think travel is pointless, since I did a fair share of it (and not just the whole 8 countries in 10 days tours… I lived in Europe). I also dated overseas and had fun with it.
But 10 years later, me being “well-traveled” didn’t make me more appealing to men as a mate. It was a nice personal quality to have, but women think that men value being “well-traveled” in a potential partner. I simply don’t think they care. If you are, great, if not, fine. Travel is self-improvement for the purpose of the traveler, but it’s not something that makes a woman’s dating value rise, so to speak, to the opposite gender.
Karl R 43
Teresa said: (#38)
“now it seems women have to limit their interests and acitivities to those that will help her catch a man?!??!”
No. When a relationship ends and I have more spare time, I fill my time with activities that make me happy. Reading, playing video games, hanging out with my buddies…
But I’m not operating under the delusion that these are helping me meet/attract a woman. They’re for my benefit. And if I start dating someone, most of them can be cut back to allow time for a relationship.
Teresa said: (#38)
“So if a women likes to travel she better not talk aboutit because then men might get bored or worse yet think she’s a goldigger geez.”
Talking about it is one thing. Making it the focal point of your online profile is another thing. For many Match.com profiles, every single “favorite hot spot” the women list is outside of the country.
If you’re taking 1 or 2 vacations per year, and you’re mentioning every vacation from the last 10 years in your profile, that’s not exactly putting the situation in context. When my fiancée talks about traveling, it’s obvious that these are trips spaced out over decades. By talking about it in person, you can get feedback about the impression your date is getting and put the travel in its proper context.
Jadafisk said: (#37)
“I thought that they involved themselves in these activities in the hopes that they would meet men with which they shared qualities and interests. [...] Re: Traveling. There are men in other countries. Lots of them.”
If you meet a great man in Italy or Brazil, are you willing to quit your job, sell your house and move thousands of miles to a foreign country just to be with him?
Most women aren’t. Travel may give them a country full of men who could be potential one-night stands, but not potential husbands.
Jadafisk said: (#37)
“isn’t this person supposed to be your *friend*? [...] Those aspects [(intellect, personal philosophy including but not limited to religion and politics, interests)] determine who people voluntarily choose to be around in non-romantic situations.”
My friends have religious backgrounds which cover the spectrum (atheists, mormons, buddhists, muslims, etc). My two best friends at work are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Most of my friends share one common interest with me, but not necessarily more than that.
My friends are interesting because they’re not exactly like me (or each other).
I choose friends who are enjoyable to be around, people whom I can trust, people who accept me as I am. Is that what you seek in your friends? Or do you actually avoid friendships unless they share your personal philosophy?
Do you have a checklist that your friends need to meet before you’ll befriend them?
NN said: (#41)
“I have not met an older couple that is satisfied”
Wow. I know dozens of older couples who are happy. That explains a lot about your attitude toward relationships.
I agree that good sex helps to keep a relationship running smoothly. But rocking hot sex isn’t going to make a great relationship by itself.
LF 44
Interesting posts. I have made a list of my needs I need fulfilled. But I am definitely an advocate of not going for the guy by checking off a list. Here’s why:
1) I married that guy..now divorced. He met all the checklists except 1 (2 later but didn’t realize it-trust which is what broke the marriage eventually): we…I never enjoyed kissing him and yes we had pretty good sex initially.. but I didn’t love him. I can’t explain why or why not. That is why this time around..do I want the chemistry but more like a person mentioned above..you just know your personalities click and you enjoy being together and you have to at least have a couple values or enjoy a couple activites together..I honestly think it is somewhat unexplainable..
2) I just got my heart broke by I believe a man who has a list of what the perfect “fit” for him is and he supposedly says we had everything..chemistry..values..”he felt absolutely safe and comfortable with me”.. well because I’m not exactly easy going enough (I’m a 4 or 5 and he wants a 2 or a 3–lower number being more easy going) and one other thing (supposedly not a deal breaker in the end..don’t want to mention).. but he kept comparing me to all the other gals he dated and I was like this one and not like that one… so yes I felt I was being compared to a list of all the qualiities of this “perfect” girl.. now of course I realize this and don’t want anyone who will analyze me like this but you can’t help who you fall in love with. Was he perfect for me..no.. he didn’t meet all my criteria but he met enough and I was fine with that…
so I guess I’m just sayin that each gender has lists and I do believe this is why some people can’t find the right person or they do find somone who meets there “list” and realize later..the stuff on the list wasn’t so important after all!!! So get rid of the lists like Evan says – if your going to use it like a CHECK list.. it’s okay to have ideas of what your looking for but I’m being more open this time and not going to check my list off..
Jadafisk 45
”I mean, it’s good that you have many talents and interests, but they are time-wasters cos 1) they take up your free time and do not expose you to more single, available men (read?! travel to a foreign country?! cookery?!! how many single avaialble men are there in these classes??)”
But… what if these activities are how the woman keeps herself happy in the interim? Also, what if a woman isn’t the epitome of stereotypical femininity and many of her interests place her in classes/groups where there are a preponderance – even an overwhelming majority – of men? Should a woman who likes home improvement instead of cooking heed the same advice?
Also, all she said was attractive, funny, well-traveled and masculine…I know a lot of people with those traits, and believe me, there’s ample room for human flaws in that description.
Alice X 46
I think it’s good to be clear on what you want in a partner but i do think we all need to be flexible when it comes to sticking to them. Nobody is perfect and if the checklist is too long, it’s more likely that nobody will be able to fulfill them.
Guys Boys & Men: Humour, dating and relationship blog
helene 47
Well, I’ve just been away for the weekend to see an art exhibition a female friend of mine was organising….so that’s travel AND art in one weekend… I’m getting more unattractive to men by the minute!
Anyway regarding the erectile dysfunction, I’d like to point out I didn’t even mention this in my original post, I stuck with the guy through that, it was not the reason I stopped seeing him and I only brought it up in response to Nia’s comment about non-alpha males.
Getting back to the issue of “the list” – attractive, funny, well travelled, masculine.. the point about this is that it is not a list I dreamt up when I was 18 and have doggedly pursued since I embarked upon the dating scene – in fact this is a list DERIVED from my dating experiences.
Since I split up with my husband 7 years ago, I have dated a huge number and variety of men- some for just one or two dates, some for a few months, the longest being 2 years. I have dated:
- A 50 year old marine biologist who designed a swimming pool for a saudi shiek’s horses
- a 28 year old Kurdish asylum seeker
– a zimbabwean male model
- a school caretaker
- a solar physicist
- an overweight 53 yr old policeman
– a 34 year old snowboarder
- a greek software designer
- a guy in the merchant navy
- a musician
- several photographers
- a bank worker
- a builder
- an asian breakdancer
- a private detective
- an ageing actuary
- a journalist with 4 young children….
The list goes on and on….
Having now HAD all these dating experiences, what I have learned is what does and doesn’t suit me. Much as I try, if I do not find a man at least moderately physically attractive, I end up breaking off the relationship, however interesting he may be in other respects. If I find he has no sense of humor, I don’t enjoy being around him. If he has not travelled much I tend to find him parochial and not broad minded enough, he tends to find me alarmingly liberal and difficult to relate to. If he is not masculine enough, I don’t have a strong enough feeling of respect towards him.
I continue to agree to go on first dates with a reaonably wide variety of people (after all, you can’t know all this stuff from someone’s online profile) but I DO feel I have gained some insight into what suits me and will now endeavour to meet men who seem more likely to be compatible. This is not about being demanding, surely its about knowing yourself and applying some common sense?!
starthrower68 48
@ #40,
Here we go again.
Goldie 49
@ Jack #40, are you saying that you could have a happy relationship with absolutely any woman – any age, looks, intellect, background, personality, nothing matters as long as it’s a warm body that breathes on a regular basis? If not, congratulations, you have a list. So why are you surprised that everyone else does too?
jack 50
I have very wide attraction parameters. Also, I don’t have a “type”. Personally, when someone says that another person is not their “type”, I roll my eyes. That is middle school thinking.
I know girl who is in her late 30s, easily 40# overweight, and has a child and questionable financial security. Yet she is adamant about dating only men over 6′. She is MAYBE 5’4″. It is hard for me to look at her chubby tummy (which she could fix), and listen to her reject men that are only 4″ taller than her (which they can’t fix).
Her reasoning? Tall guys make her feel petite and sexy. I guess that’s a quicker route to self-confidence than 8 months of exercise. Stupid me.
She was KINDA hot when she was in her 20s, and probably remembers all the short-term attention she got from hotter guys. Those days shall never return.
Another woman I know who is late 30s rejects all available men and instead pursues men who are out of her league. Her response to being set up with a fit, successful average guy? “Ewww, not my type”.
An additional woman I know (early 30s) is still trying to trade on what was obviously a much hotter body at one time. She has narcissistic tendencies and feels that she should always be the center of attention. Her ego is writing checks that her tush can’t cash.
My conclusion: Once a woman has gone too far down the path of pursuing Mr. Perfect, she is maybe only 10% wife potential. She is too invested in the idea that there is a perfect man who is “out there somewhere”.
A man who is amazing, yet overlooks her obvious flaws.
Once a woman lives in this fantasy world long enough, any actual real man will be a bitter, bitter disappointment to her. Even if such a woman decides she wants to date someone like me, the asymmetric appreciation for each other destroys any joy in dating her.
Average men need to get the D@MN MEMO that we are unneeded and obsolete. The modern woman has very special wants and needs in a man, and only the top 10% of all men qualify. Women have decided that being alone is a better deal, so that will be the outcome except for the 10% that are hot enough to bag the 10% highest quality men, or the next 20-30% who will settle for being mistresses for these men, with no commitment.
Do you have certain, specific special needs in a man?
I guess that makes you a “special needs” woman.
Annie 51
@40
Replace the word “women” for “people” and you might have it just about right
Karl R 52
helene said: (#47)
“If he has not travelled much I tend to find him parochial and not broad minded enough, he tends to find me alarmingly liberal and difficult to relate to.”
I think I just overdosed on hypocrisy. Do you have any idea how narrow-minded your assumption is?
Furthermore, I always find this to be a flawed way of thinking. (And not just because it’s a narrow-minded assumption.)
If you’re trying to avoid men who are parochial, narrow-minded and whom find you alarmingly liberal, put that criteria on your checklist. It makes no sense to use criteria which merely tends to correlate to your actual criteria.
Extremely successful women tend to rule me out because I’m not as successful as they are. Despite this, I have dated a significant number of women who were quite successful. Why? They were the exceptions to the rule.
Goldie asked: (#49)
“are you saying that you could have a happy relationship with absolutely any woman – any age, looks, intellect, background, personality, nothing matters as long as it’s a warm body that breathes on a regular basis?”
I read his post twice. I’m absolutely convinced that he didn’t say (or even imply) any of that.
A-L 53
All of us have a list of some sorts, because all of us have standards (I hope). That being said, I think the point that some are trying to make is that your list should not be too exclusive. You can have 20 things on your list if there are still a large number of people who can qualify. If you only have 2 things on your list, but they’re very exclusive things, then that might be too many because the resultant pool is so small.
To illustrate, here are two possible lists.
List A
1) Needs to be taller than 5’4″
2) Needs to weight more than 120 pounds
3) Needs to believe in following the Golden Rule (do onto others as you would have done unto you)
4) Needs to be able to support himself
5) Needs to share at least 1 interest with me (dancing, football, church, travel, cooking, eating out, photography, biking, etc)
List B
1) Needs to be at least as smart as me (i.e. top 2% of population)
Though list A is 5 times as long, 95% of men would probably qualify. With the second list, only 2% of men would qualify. So in essence, just make sure your list still gives you an acceptably sized dating pool.
Goldie 54
@ Karl #52:
“I read his post twice. I’m absolutely convinced that he didn’t say (or even imply) any of that.”
I am well aware that he didn’t. That was exactly my point. Everyone has a list and that is the way it should be. It is not about getting the best deal in exchange for your (real or imaginary) assets. It is about finding a person that is a good enough match that the two of you, with some work of course, are able to make each other’s life better by being together, not worse.
My list, really, consists of an open mind, intellectual curiosity, a certain amount of ethics/integrity, and a positive, light-hearted approach to life. Everything else – looks, income, age (to a point… 20 yr difference will probably not work) is negotiable. But if I try to compromise on any of the three qualities listed above, I know from experience that the two of us will be miserable together. Why do this to yourself and another person? We’ve all been through enough bad stuff in our lives, so why not choose a relationship that has at least a 50% chance of turning out well, rather than zero percent?
Bettina 55
There is only one thing on my list: My boyfriend.
BeenThereDoneThat 56
Jack
So you know of a handful of women and this = “many”?
You cite those examples and you know what I think? You are lucky to not in a relationship with those women. I would run from men who had that same attitude.
I bet – somewhere in your today is a woman who wants you to ask her out and you are probably overlooking her. Maybe because you think she is one of the “many”.
BeenThereDoneThat 57
To Jack:
I’m not trying to argue with you or start something. I was just trying to point out that its offensive (to me at least) to hear how YOU are someway simple because you are (insert age/gender/race/religion/etc).
I once went on a date with a guy who spent the entire evening complaining about people of my religion; how closed minded and judgemental they are. How they would give him the time of day because he wasn’t of the same faith. And he said all this knowing that I was of that faith. I wondered how he could say everyone of that faith was that way when I was sitting there with him – giving him the time of day! You would think my very presence would say something.
Or just recently a guy asked me out for a first meeting. Since we live close, I suggested a walk in the park. On that walk, this guy complained about how all women were gold diggers who were looking for money and only cared how much a guy spent on them.
I think we tend to find examples that fit how we think. General rules only apply sometimes.
Good luck
starthrower68 58
@ been there done that, you are spot on. you will no doubt be accused of “shaming language” for not being in agreement that all women are bad but you are spot on nonetheless.
Karl R 59
jack said: (#40)
“the male desire for female companionship diminishes with time,”
Really? Your desire for female companionship may be diminishing with time, but I see no evidence of that extending to the broader population.
The percentage of married men increases with every age group up to the age of 75 (based on the 2010 census). At that point, the percentage of married men decreases only because of the increasing number of widowers (and you can’t claim that they are voluntarily eschewing female companionship).
jack said: (#50)
“The modern woman has very special wants and needs in a man, and only the top 10% of all men qualify. Women have decided that being alone is a better deal, so that will be the outcome except for the 10% that are hot enough to bag the 10% highest quality men,”
Really? At every age range from early twenties to 85+, more than 10% of women are married. At several age ranges (35-65), it exceeds 60%.
And given the percentage of men who are married (a similar percentages), I think we can rule out widespread polygamy.
jack said: (#40)
“Long lists of must-have attributes are the sign of someone who thinks of men as some sort of consumer product”
You claim to know what men desire (despite evidence to the contrary). You claim to know what women want (despite evidence to the contrary). And you claim to know what women think (while providing no evidence to support your statement).
I doubt that you have telepathy, so you might not want to tell women (and men) what they think, want and desire.
jack 60
Karl-
For purposes of you and I having a discussion. just go ahead and assume I am wrong about everything. It’s clear from you questions that you did not understand the point I was making and your absurd conclusions about my statements are reflected in the assertions in you comment above.
Leave it alone – let it go. I have no need to defend my point to you. I know I’m right, and that is all that matters to me. For those who gain insight from my comments, good. For those who want to fight, I’m afraid they will have to argue with themselves.
Jadafisk 61
“Her response to being set up with a fit, successful average guy? “Ewww, not my type”.”
What do you mean by average… his looks or intellect? Because fit and successful (by the generally used definition) are not the average.
Jadafisk said: (#37)
“I thought that they involved themselves in these activities in the hopes that they would meet men with which they shared qualities and interests. [...] Re: Traveling. There are men in other countries. Lots of them.”
If you meet a great man in Italy or Brazil, are you willing to quit your job, sell your house and move thousands of miles to a foreign country just to be with him?
Most women aren’t. Travel may give them a country full of men who could be potential one-night stands, but not potential husbands.
I dunno… I guess it doesn’t seem so far-fetched because I’ve seen it happen. Also, it depends on how tightly you want to hold on to your desired traits and how rare they are in the population you’re surrounded by. A woman may decide to compromise on where she’ll live before she does on who she lives with.
“I choose friends who are enjoyable to be around, people whom I can trust, people who accept me as I am. Is that what you seek in your friends? Or do you actually avoid friendships unless they share your personal philosophy?”
The human tendency to prefer the platonic company of folks with similar backgrounds is well-documented. People usually don’t have to actively avoid friendships… people voluntarily cluster, mutually avoid one another and fully occupy themselves with their own social world within a world. They live in groups together, work in groups together, and they don’t have to try, they just “happen to have” friend groups that consist of people very much like themselves. The exceedingly gregarious and the exceedingly unconventional differ in this regard… one type consistently goes out of their way to meet new people in a variety of situations where people from different backgrounds may cross paths, the other type may be unable to easily construct a group of people who are that similar to themselves, but the lengths they go to to try to do so are often remarkable.
starthrower68 62
@ Jack #60,
Point goes to Karl. Mal absurdum i.e. mischaracterization or invalid reduction to absurdity does not prove the the premise. It merely displays an inability to respond to challenge of one’s mindset.
Sayanta 63
Jack
When Karl or BeenThereDoneThat carefully and logically deconstruct your arguments, instead of pouting and getting angry, why don’t you just come back with a carefully constructed point by point rebuttal? That would seem like the most logical thing to do.
Karl R 64
Jafadisk said: (#61)
“A woman may decide to compromise on where she’ll live before she does on who she lives with.”
In that situation, I would say it’s her willingness to relocate which increases her desirability. Travel merely provides an increased opportunity to meet people.
Similarly, when I joined Match.com, I had the opportunity to meet women whom I never would have encountered otherwise. I don’t think any of those women would have described my subscription as “self improvement” which made me “more attractive” … which is how helene described travel (#5).
If an activity makes you happy, that’s sufficient reason to engage in it. If it introduces you to potential partners, that’s sufficient reason to engage in it. But if I’m doing something solely to make myself more attractive to women in general, I want to be sure that it will have the desired effect.
Jafadisk said: (#61)
“The human tendency to prefer the platonic company of folks with similar backgrounds is well-documented.”
That seems to be two strikes against using “travel” to foreign countries as a way to meet men. 1. It only applies to women who can accept a husband with a dissimilar cultural background. 2. It limits the available men to the small pool of men who are able to accept a wife of a dissimilar cultural background (and who meet all of her other criteria).
Jafadisk said: (#61)
“The exceedingly gregarious and the exceedingly unconventional differ in this regard…”
Well, that may explain why the concept is completely alien to me. I haven’t met anyone who shares my background, abilities, personal philosophy and interests.
For example, my friends in the dance community share one interest (dancing) and have personalities that are somewhat similar to mine (similar enough that we enjoy each other). That’s it.
To me, compatability doesn’t mean my fiancée and I are alike. It means we can accommodate our differences.
jack said: (#60)
“It’s clear from you questions that you did not understand the point I was making”
If you were making a valid point (which I’m not about to assume), then you can more effectively make the same point without making inaccurate statements and representing them as facts.
jack said: (#60)
“I know I’m right, and that is all that matters to me.”
That reminds me of the movie “Good Morning, Vietnam” where Lt. Steven Hauk said, “Sir, in my heart, I know I’m funny.”
If I’m giving advice, and everyone else believes I’m wrong, then my advice is worthless. In order to get other people to believe you, you’ll have to offer proof, or offer evidence, or just make sense. (Telling people what they already believe also works, but I don’t see much value in that.)
Bettina 65
@59: Men getting married may or may not be attributed to male desire for female companionship. The US Census does not ask, and so does not reveal, why people get married.
At any given point in time, 90%-40% of women are not married, accordign to your numbers (which we will assume are accurate). Again, we don’t know why. Is it possible that all or some of them are choosing not to be–could it be that they are choosing to be “alone”? Conversely, can say that someone is “alone” just because he/she isn’t married?
I don’t think the rebuttal to Jack’s comments is compelling; lots of assumptions in Karl’s comments as well. I’m not finding logic or reason in either argument.
Karl R 66
Bettina said: (#65)
“Men getting married may or may not be attributed to male desire for female companionship. The US Census does not ask, and so does not reveal, why people get married.”
If a man desires to avoid female companionship, would marriage be a logical or reasonable step towards achieving that goal?
If a man wishes to procreate, he has options which do not involve marriage (sperm donation, becoming a deadbeat “baby daddy”). If a man wishes to rear a child, he has options which do not involve marriage (adoption, procreating with a clearly unfit mother and suing for sole custody).
At the 65-74 age range, 76% of men are married. Can you come up with a logical reason why so many are/remain married if they don’t want the companionship of their wives?
And if the male desire for female companionship diminishes over time (as jack claimed), why does that age range have the highest marriage rate? Can you come up with a logical, reasonable alternative explanation?
Bettina said: (#65)
“At any given point in time, 90%-40% of women are not married, accordign to your numbers (which we will assume are accurate). Again, we don’t know why.”
Based on the data, I think we can draw some logical/reasonable inferences:
Women ages 20-24:
17% married
0.1% widowed (and not remarried)
1% divorced (and not remarried)
2% separated
79% never married
Women ages 40-44:
67% married
2% widowed (and not remarried)
14% divorced (and not remarried)
4% separated
14% never married
Women ages 75-84:
37% married
50% widowed (and not remarried)
8% divorced (and not remarried)
1% separated
4% never married
In the 20-24 age range, 79% have never married. Do you think that it’s primarily because they’re fighting over the top 10% of men (as jack suggested), or do think it’s primarily because they’re not even 25 yet? What does your experience, reason and logic suggest to you?
In the 40-44 age range, 14% are divorced. Do you think it’s primarily because they’re competing for the same men? Do you think it’s becaue they choose to be alone? Or do you think it’s primarily because their marriages didn’t work out? What does your experience, reason and logic suggest to you?
In the 75-84 age range, 50% are widowed. Do you think they’re unmarried because they choose to be alone (as you suggested)? Or do you think it’s because their husbands died? What does your experience, reason and logic suggest to you?
You don’t have to assume my numbers are accurate. Look up marital statistics from the 2010 U.S. Census Current Population Survey.
Bettina said: (#65)
“Conversely, can say that someone is ‘alone’ just because he/she isn’t married?”
I wouldn’t say that (and if you pay close attention, you’ll notice that I didn’t say that). But I would say that the people who aren’t married imply an upper limit to the number who choose to be alone.
In other words, it’s possible that the unmarried have chosen to be alone. It’s highly improbable that the married would prefer to be alone. Even for those who get divorced (many of whom no longer wanted the company of their ex-spouse), the majority end up remarrying. That leads me to believe they still wanted companionship … just not one particular companion.
Bettina said: (#65)
“lots of assumptions in Karl’s comments as well.”
Of course … but at least the evidence supports my assumptions.
jack claimed (#50) that modern women only want/need the top 10% of men. He also said average men are unneeded and obsolete. The census data shows that 55% of men ages 30-34 are married. To me that suggests that modern women are willing to accept men outside the top 10%. It also suggests that a fair number of average men are getting married.
I suspect you could come up with some convoluted alternate explanations, but the simple, reasonable, logical explanation is that jack’s statements don’t fit the facts.
Gem 67
Jack #50,
“If you have certain, specific needs in a man? I guess that makes you a “special needs” woman.”
Everyone here agrees that long, detailed lists of qualities are not conducive to finding a partner, and points to not being able to take a realistic look at oneself and their own shortcomings while placing high expectations on another.
BUT, there are some personality qualities and/or behaviors that I am not attracted to and others that I am, so therefore, I have found myself attracted to a “type”, generally speaking.
Personalities tend to compliment each other or compete with each other. Chemistry can be found either way, but as a 45 yr. old woman, I tend to know what I’m looking for and what kind of personality blends well with mine. Those personalities do have certain qualities that I look for.
What package they come in: job, looks, nationality, $$, style of dress, has varied wildly in the men I’ve fallen for.
Are the men I’m attracted to the top 10% in whatever grading scale you’re using? I have no idea. But my friends consider them pretty average.
They are the tops to ME because I’m the one attracted to them.
Having some perspective of who we are ourselves and the kind of person (i.e.: qualities) we want to live with daily gives us maturity, imo, to choose a partner wisely and not randomly based solely on who turns us on the most.
What’s really unrealistic is making sweeping conclusions about women in general based on the 3 examples you gave. Just because some people have wildly unrealistic standards does make having standards at all unrealistic.
Jadafisk 68
64. Most people don’t travel to foreign countries in the first place… I’m assuming that the specific group of people who pride themselves on regularly doing so for leisure share traits that differ from the general population re: willingness to deal with cultural dissimilarity.
Goldie 69
As an immigrant, I do in fact get along easier with people that have lived in multiple different states and/or countries. I found that this makes them more open to cultural differences, and less likely to see me as an outsider (which can put a real strain on a relationship).
That said, unfortunately, again from my experience, traveling for leisure does not necessarily have the same effect. In a way, it can be even worse. I’ve talked to people that have gone abroad for a week, and returned with a mindset of “I am so fortunate to have been born here, and you foreigners must be so appreciative of what we take for granted” – an attitude that, TBH, scares me quite a bit when coming from my partner. I do not want him to always expect me to be super-appreciative of everything.
jack 70
I don’t find Karl’s questions to have anything resembling a “logical deconstruction” in them. He’s fled to emotion more than once here, and I don’t debate emotions.
Regarding BeenThereDoneThat’s comment:
I missed reading that one. Happy to respond:
BTTD- I do not necessarily disagree with you. First, anyone who does that on an actual date is a clueless tool (criticizing your religion and calling women golddiggers). Also re: your comment, I’m not 100% certain what you meant by calling someone ‘simple’ – please elaborate.
You make a mistake in assuming that I equated a “handful” to “many”. I cited them as examples, and I did not in any way state that this was the complete extent of such attitudes I have experienced. I have a whole lifetime of dealing with endless examples of such behavior. It is a little wearying to have someone suggest that I would take three examples and extrapolate the whole of American women from that. To suggest that this was my thought process is not exactly arguing in good faith, I would say. This is basically a “straw man” variant.
Nonetheless, you were polite in engaging me, and therefore warrant a response.
Back to Karl:
I’m sure that within the bounds of the statistics he cites, that those figures are correct. I dispute the conclusions he draws from them. But rather than stand there slapping each other with gloves and issuing challenges to duel, I prefer to give him permission to declare the win for himself. Also, I am not commenting her for the benefit of men, so why waste my time?
With regard to feeling in no way compelled to prove my points, this is not from fear or concern over “losing” the argument. I am merely recognizing that one seldom “wins” an internet argument, and adjusting my conversation to acknowledge that reality.
My goal is not to change minds or win arguments. My reason for posting is to make clear the reason that many men have exited the marriage market. Other people can huff and puff and pull out spreadsheets full of statistics, but who cares? It is evident that many women are desirous of relationships from the tsunami of “where are all the good men” articles.
Whether or not me (and the men like me) are ‘good men’ is left to the women to judge. But we are gone all the same. Good riddance to us? I suppose. That was my conclusion about marriage as well, so I can hardly criticize others for being glad to be rid of me.
Ladies: It is not every woman’s individual fault that so many men have been treated so poorly and ignored for so long, but it is a reality that will affect you nonetheless. Is it fair that you have to work to undo the damage done by your shallow and narcissistic sisters? No. And you are under no obligation to do so.
But there are good men who have had enough of the dating game. Some may be salvageable for those of you willing to put in the effort. If not, best of luck for those who choose to remain in the game.
Thanks to Evan for letting me say my piece. And some guy should grab Annie quickly while she is still available.
Sayanta 71
Jack
But you’re the one coming across as emotional, not anyone else. Maybe you should reread all these posts when you’re in a more peaceful, loving mood and see for yourself.
Karl R 72
jack said: (#70)
“My reason for posting is to make clear the reason that many men have exited the marriage market.”
“But there are good men who have had enough of the dating game.”
“Whether or not me (and the men like me) are ‘good men’ is left to the women to judge. But we are gone all the same.”
As far as I can tell, the only trait these “good men” have (at least the only trait which you mention) is that they are frustrated with dating. That is completely understandable. Dating is frustrating for almost everyone.
But these men (like you) are so frustrated that they are giving up on dating/marriage for good. So they have one discernable difference from the rest of us (male and female) … they are more easily frustrated than the rest of us.
Of all the traits women (and men) on this blog are looking for, “easily frustrated” has never made anyone’s list of desireable traits.
jack said: (#70)
“It is evident that many women are desirous of relationships from the tsunami of ‘where are all the good men’ articles.”
It’s hardly a tsunami. I’m pretty sure women were writing those articles for the entire time you were on the dating market (unless you’re really, really old).
It’s obvious that you consider yourself to be a “good man.” (Hardly surprising, since everyone likes to view themselves as being a “good person.”)
It’s equally obvious that the women you wanted to date did not share your opinion that you were a good catch. And you seem unwilling to accept responsibility for the situation (since you think it should be women’s responsibility to “salvage” the “good men” like you who have given up on dating).
No woman is going to “put in the effort” to salvage you. If you aren’t willing to put in the effort to salvage yourself, why should she? Evan repeatedly tells women that they need to change in order to improve their own dating situation. The same advice is true for men.
If dating isn’t working for you, stop complaining about all the awful women out there, change your approach to dating, and get better results.
It’s not simple. It takes time. It takes effort. But I managed to find one woman who wholeheartedly believes that I am a good man.
jack said: (#70)
“[Karl]’s fled to emotion more than once here, and I don’t debate emotions.”
I’ll explain this simply: people don’t choose their spouse based on a cold, logical decision. Our choices of whom we date and marry are primarily emotional decisions.
If you’re unable to discuss emotions on a relationship blog, what value do you expect to contribute?
Sacha 73
This is a very interesting topic. I have been reading this blog for months, following it in real time, and also have read past topics as far back as the blog goes. It has been very beneficial for me, so thank you, Evan, for all your advice and for being such a gracious host.
I also find Jack’s opinion very valuable. I think his thinking mirrors that of A LOT of men out there, whether we women agree with it or not, whether we like it or not, and it is very beneficial to hear it. You say it as you and a lot of other men see it, and we women can ignore your opinions at our perril. I personally see you speak a lot of truth and reason, even though I do not necessariliy like what you are saying.
There have been a number of male posters on Evan’s blog whose opinion I have found very beneficial. Unfortunately, they no longer post here. I think the reason they no longer post was expressed by Evan very well in another very popular blog post. Evan, if I may quote you:
http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/should-women-ask-men-out-on-first-dates/#comment-7369
“Faithful readers,
You may notice a pattern.
Intelligent opinionated male (Verbosity, Deathslayer, Vino) gets on message boards, expresses a thoughtful, if somewhat gender-biased opinion, gets insulted for expressing said opinion, retorts with multiple leeeeengthy posts, and the discussion gets hijacked into a personal back and forth that lasts for days and eventually drives the man off. Well, I like having male readers, I like having different opinions, and I would really appreciate it if you could tolerate your respective differences.
Women: Feel free to disagree with men’s opinions by expressing the strength of your own views. Just lay off the personal attacks. Vino is here for the same reason most of us are here – this is interesting stuff, and it applies to men and women universally.
Men: Stop responding at length to those who disagree with you. It only prolongs a pointless argument. Oh, and keep it simple, where possible. Everyone here should be able to make a point in a couple of short paragraphs without any infighting or acrimony.
With great love and respect,
The Management”
I very much miss Verbosity, Deathslayer and Vino. I think it would be a shame for this blog to lose the opinions of Jack, as well.
Jack, I can assure you, there are women that appreciate your posts. Thanks to Evan, and to the posts of other men here, namely the ones listed above and you, I have already adjusted my attitude and behaviour in a number of areas.
Karl, you seem to think that the only possible alternative of “male desire for female companionship” is “man desires to avoid female companionship”. That is very one-dimensional. I can give you alternatives. I know couples who have no desire for companionship with one another, but do not avoid it either. They tolerate it and accept it sometimes as a necessary compromise, because they desire something else that would be of benefit to them – financial support, domestic support, tax advantages, children, real estate, etc. Sad, but this happens all the time, and incidence increases with age. It is true that there are married couples who are still in love with each other in old age, as they were when they were younger, but they are not the majority. Your numbers of marriage statistics do not disprove the opinion Jack expressed that “the male desire for female companionship diminishes with time”. Maybe your desire doesn’t/won’t diminish with time, but I know this to be true for other men.
Karl, your opinions and preferences are those of a man who has self-selected himself as an “evolutionary dead end” (to quote David Buss, author of The Evolution Of Desire), so are of little consequence not only in evolutionary terms, but also do not help women in practical terms, as most men do not share your opinions and preferences. You cannot dispute this, because the very existance of humankind proves this.
Peace. I will not engage in lengthy discussions, posting numbers and statistics. I am an actuary, I can swamp you with stats, I can point out the errors of your maths (multiplying probabilities, ignoring correlations, etc), but I will not. I am here to read Evan’s opinions and that of other men whose opinions are consistent with the theses of evolutionary psychology, and the experience of other women, so that I can learn from them.
Bettina 74
@73: Well done!!! I applaud your comments. I, too, work in a number-driven field and find the relentless onslaught of statistics to “prove” what is basically unprovable tedious–not “reasonable” or “logical,” as is so often suggested here. (I usually skip over these kinds of posts.)
And I do appreciate the POVs of the folks who aren’t so marriage-driven, views that the now-banished guys used to express. (God forbid a woman ever expressed such a POV on this board, though!) These posters were very sexist and hostile in their tone, and given to ranting, which always disrupts an otherwise productive board, so I can see why they had to go.
But a more measured debate about the diversity of approaches to partnering would be interesting, I think.
It’s trickier to have these kinds of discussions because in dispensing advice/wisdom you’d have to find out what someone wanted out of the relationship under discussion. You couldn’t assume the “one-and-only, white wedding, kids in the burbs” default of eHarmony-land.
Ruby 75
I do think that as men get older, they are less interested in marriage, although they may still want a girlfriend. Usually they are divorced and don’t want to go down that road again, or were never married to begin with. Then again, I’ve known people who had quit dating for several years but eventually did form a new relationship. Usually, it was with an old friend, and less often with someone new. While I do agree that some couples stay together out of convenience, I don’t see that as the norm in long-term marriages.
Having said that, for every male on this blog who has offered a viewpoint that I have found annoying, intolerant, or sexist (Jack, Hadley Paige, etc.), there seems to be another man whose views I’ve found much more open-minded and level-headed (Karl R, Nathan, EMK himself, etc.). Living in the real world, I’m already well aware that there are people who hold opinions I find obnoxious, so I just don’t feel a strong need to read them here. I find absolutely nothing edifying or enlightening in them. As far as Jack’s viewpoint is concerned, the one word that pops into my head most often as I read his postings is “bitter”. He comes across as awfully bitter, which, I would guess, does not make him very attractive to the opposite sex.
Goldie 76
@ Jack,
Average men need to get the D@MN MEMO that we are unneeded and obsolete. The modern woman has very special wants and needs in a man, and only the top 10% of all men qualify.
Here is one thing I think you’re missing here… no two women are the same. One woman’s average man is another woman’s top 10%.
I dated a man last year that apparently very few other women were interested in. He was smart, funny, open-minded, and positive. That made him my 10%, because that is what I like in a man. For another woman, he might be average or below. If all women were all chasing after the same George Clooney, then yeah you would be absolutely right, but, as it happens, we all have different tastes.
Karl R 77
Sacha said: (#73)
“you seem to think that the only possible alternative of ‘male desire for female companionship’ is’man desires to avoid female companionship’. That is very one-dimensional.”
Actually, it’s on topic. jack was suggesting that men’s lack of desire for female companionship was adding to women’s difficulty in finding partners. If men feel less desire for female companionship (as you and jack believe), but still seek female companionship in increasing numbers (as the U.S. census data shows), then his point is still incorrect.
Sacha said: (#73)
“It is true that there are married couples who are still in love with each other in old age, as they were when they were younger, but they are not the majority.”
Can you prove that statement? Can you even produce some evidence which would lend credibility to your statement?
Without evidence, you’re expecting us to believe that you (and jack) have read the minds of enough men (or discussed this topic with enough men) to know what the majority desire.
Sacha said: (#73)
“I will not engage in lengthy discussions, posting numbers and statistics. I am an actuary, I can swamp you with stats,”
Well, you have already engaged in a lengthy discussion. You might as well go ahead and swamp me with stats.
In order for you to be certain that my numbers are incorrect, you must have already found the source data and run calculations. What reason do you have to not provide us with more accurate statistics? Unlike Bettina, I enjoy examining every statistic that is actually based on data (instead of the ones based on people’s guesses).
Sacha said: (#73)
“I can point out the errors of your maths (multiplying probabilities, ignoring correlations, etc), but I will not.”
Are you getting confused with another thread?
In the statistics I mention above, I did not multiply any probabilities. (I did add and round some percentages.) In addition, all of the correlations were taken into account in the source data.
Furthermore, multiplying probabilities (which I have done in other threads) is correct unless there is a strong correlation between the traits which skews the data. If you can find the data to quantify the degree of the correlation, I will be extremely interested in seeing it. (Seriously, if the Pearson’s coefficient is 0.01, you can claim that a correlation exists, but it won’t significantly affect the outcome).
Sacha said: (#73)
“Karl, your opinions and preferences are those of a man who has self-selected himself as an ‘evolutionary dead end’ [...], so are of little consequence not only in evolutionary terms,”
Are you actually suggesting that my (and my fiancée’s) desire not to reproduce has actually had some discernable impact on the current dating pool?
I was going to say that it’s a little soon for there to be any impact … but then I realized that my oldest nephew is 20, and my fiancée’s oldest nephew is 38…
Since you believe that I am an evolutionary dead end, do you believe the same about jack? He has previously stated that he wants to get married and start a family, but finds it “icreasingly unlikely” that he will ever do so. From an evolutionary standpoint, what is the difference between someone who chooses not to reproduce and someone who has that choice forced upon them?
Now that I’m thinking about it, I have two uncles (one on each side of the family) who never had children. One has 6 nieces and nephews; the other has 8. Similarly, I have 7 nieces & nephews; my fiancée has 4.
Sacha said: (#73)
“your opinions and preferences [...] do not help women in practical terms, as most men do not share your opinions and preferences.”
That’s an odd way of viewing the situation.
I value the opinions of A-L and Selena, not because their opinions and preferences match those of most women; instead their opinions and preferences are similar to those of the women I prefer.
If you prefer men who are exactly like jack, then he is the utmost authority on how they behave. If you prefer men like Lance, then Lance’s opinion is far more valid than mine.
And unlike Evan and I (who are taken), jack is still available. You could conceiveably get him, not just someone like him.
BeenThereDoneThat 78
To Jack
I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear. When i hear someone say someone is “something” because they are “this”. Its not very clear.
An example – you said “. . . many women act as though the universe owes them the man of their dreams”. Some could imply that because many women feel these way and I am a woman that I fall into this category. How many times have we heard that women are drama queens or emotional? To be fair, I think we should stay away from these comments altogether. That was the point of my examples. Generalizations are useless because people are individuals.
In my experience, men say they want someone who is easy going, fun to be with, uncritical. My experience also shows that men go for women who are high maintenance, very demanding, very demeaning; women who will find fault with everything that they do. Should I assume that all men really do want this type of woman? I sincerely hope not. There are women as you described out there - but certainly not all; just as there are men out there as I have described but not all men.
Hope that clarified my thoughts.
Sharon 79
A while ago someone mentioned in jest that men and women are just completely incompatible. But it seems to me any society where women have financial independence the average of marriage goes up as well as divorce rates and people spend lesser portions of their lives married.
I read this blog looking for a little encouragement and maybe a little commiserating. Some of the men on here make me want to open a gigolo farm in nevada.
Bettina 80
@79: I like the Nevada idea. Please pursue!
I like to think that female independence makes for more relationship options and, as a result, better marriages for those who decide that marriage is for them. How could it be better that people (of both genders) are pushed into these conjugal relationships with no thought to whether or not the individuals want that sort of thing?
The takeaway from what you’re observing (female financial independence=later marriages, higher divorce rates) is that a lot of people do not want the traditional marriage and the traditional gender roles.
Of course, there are plenty of people who don’t get it and think they can have some mash-up of egalitarianism and traditionalism (women who want alpha males to appreciate them for their intelligence and accomplishments; guys who think some rich, beautiful career woman is going to support their pot habit).
Confusing times.
A-L 81
Just because a man has a differing point of view than the majority of women here, does not mean that he is embittered, misogynistic, or some other negative adjective. There have been men who have been able to share their viewpoints candidly and politely (Vino, Hadley Paige, etc) and I’ve enjoyed discussions with them, though we wouldn’t necessarily agree with each other.
At the same time though, other posters shouldn’t be slammed for thinking that a poster lacks confidence, or is bitter, etc., just because he is a male sharing an opposing point of view. Female posters have had these same adjectives thrown at them. If a feeling generated by the post is shared by several others, then there’s probably a kernel of truth there; it shouldn’t be turned into a gendered debate.
The fact that several posters are getting an embittered vibe from Jack probably means that he’s giving off that feeling in his own life, not that the posters hate his stance so much that they are trying to make his points irrelevant by any means possible.
Bettina 82
If Jack is bitter, there are a lot of similarly bitter people on this board. Women, most of ‘em.
That said, I’ve nothing against bitterness. Men as a group can be real jerks. Women as a group can be real jerks.
Ruby 83
A-L #81
I don’t always agree with EMK, Karl R, or Nathan, either. I just find them to be more reasonable and less reactionary in their presentation, and I appreciate that. I also don’t agree with every female who posts here, for that matter. Yes, I do feel that Jack is giving off ”an embittered vibe”, that isn’t entirely objective or reasonable. He has a right to his opinion, just as I have to take issue with it. I don’t doubt that there may be some who appreciate Jack’s viewpoint; I just can’t say I’m one of them. But perhaps if others bring up what they perceive as bitterness, it might ultimately be helpful to him.
Gem 84
I agree with Sacha that Jack’s opinions are interesting and welcome (to me) whether I agree with them or not. He certainly appears pessimistic about dating and seemingly has taken himself out of the game.
I, too, have felt the frustration; but am an optimist to the end. In life and love. And have found the best way to lower and/or avoid dating frustration, or burn out, is to hone my skills of perception.
By pay more attention to what I feel/sense on a date than what is being said: (is something about them making me uncomfortable? Do they seem genuine? Do their actions match their words?). I trust my gut and don’t second guess myself or my instincts, and I don’t waste one second of my time (or the man’s) once I know we are not a match. Most of this is nonverbal communication or very small, seemingly insignificant things.
The verbal thing I pay attention to the most very early on: Often in the first couple of dates, men throw out seemingly meaningless comments passed off as jokes. They may seem off the wall to see how we’ll respond. I’ve learned they are not jokes at all. They’re always truths.
starthrower68 85
@ Ruby # 83; Been There Done That #78,
I agree with you both but just be ready for the “feminist shaming language” accusation. I don’t always agree with Karl and Evan either, but if Jack is going to make charges on this blog, he’s going to have to back them up with more than just “I know I’m right and that’s all that matters”. It’s basically argument by dismissal. There is never any actual refutation of what Karl says. The posts follow a very formulaic “I knew a couple of women who chased men out of their league, therefore all women are bad and men are opting out of relationships”. Let’s say for arguments sake jack is not bitter and every point he makes is valid: well, he’d better learn to reread and rephrase his posts so that he is not so misunderstood.
A-L 86
RE: Bettina‘s #82
Yep, I would say that many others who have posted here are bitter. It’s not exclusive to Jack.
RE: Ruby‘s #83
I didn’t mention EMK, Karl, or Nathan because I think they represent more of the moderate point of view (toward men and women) that most of the women can agree with. But people like Vino (and to a lesser degree, Hadley Paige) held views that most of the women really disagreed with. But both of those were able to discuss their views rationally, without namecalling and insults.
What I tried to do in my last post (obviously unsuccessfully) was to show that guys can have opposing ideas and not have people make comments that they’re bitter. So that if someone makes a comment about a male with an opposing point of view being bitter, it’s because a bitterness vibe exists, not because his opinion is unpopular.
Ruby 87
starthrower68 #85
You and Karl R have summed up very well what bugs me about Jack’s posts. It’s also sort of a chicken/egg dilemma. Do your bad dating experiences make you “bitter”, or does your own unhappiness inform your dating experiences?
jack 88
BTTD said:
An example – you said “. . . many women act as though the universe owes them the man of their dreams”. Some could imply that because many women feel these way and I am a woman that I fall into this category. How many times have we heard that women are drama queens or emotional? To be fair, I think we should stay away from these comments altogether. That was the point of my examples. Generalizations are useless because people are individuals.
I purposely used the word “many” so as to avoid using words like “most” or “all”. If you are not this way, then consider yourself not to be a member of this group of individuals. I think it should not be necessary to always be issuing such disclaimers.
As to generalizations, I must completely reject this thinking. Even your statement that generalizations are useless is, in itself, a generalization. Generalizations are the basis of all human knowledge and action. If I am conducting a hiring interview and the person is late, poorly dressed, and puts their feet up on the furniture during the interview, I am well within the bounds of reason to assume that this may carry over into their quality of work.
Should I risk hiring such an “apparent” slacker on the off chance that they could be the best employee ever? Am I being a bad person by “judging” them? I think not.
“DON’T JUDGE!!” is the rallying cry of the postmodern culture. But everyone judges. And everyone generalizes. Even if they do not realize or admit it.
While it is admirable to be open minded to an extent, and while we should not immediately dismiss people for one or two questionable actions, the real truth is that while people are individuals, they are not really all that different from each other. A guy who lies about his career will probably lie about other things. A woman who flakes out on a date will likely do it again as well.
I encourage people to rid themselves of this misbegotten idea that generalizing is always wrong and that judging is bad. We all do it all the time, and it is an immutable part of being human.
The key is to generalize and judge with wisdom and understanding, and only with thoughtful deliberation.
jack 89
Ruby-
The problem with the accusation of bitterness is that it carries within it the implication that bitterness is always wrong, and sometimes implies that the bitter person somehow is deserving of their outcome.
This “shaming language” tactic is a standard tactic used to immediately discount someone’s vies, without ever addressing the original point.
You’re bitter. You’re angry. You just hate women. You’re scaring me. You just want women to be barefoot and pregnant. You want to roll back the clock to when women were owned like property. You’re just a loser who can’t get a date. You have a fragile ego. Man up. You can’t handle a woman who is equal to you. You must live in your mother’s basement. Etc, etc, etc.
Such phrases are very familiar to men such as myself who engage on the topic of dating/sex/marriage. Imagine if every time a woman complained that a man did not commit to her, some guy chimed in and said “I bet you’re fat and/or ugly.” Think that would be tolerated long? And yet men endure such taunts all the time, as specified above.
So what if someone is bitter? If a bitter person tells you the time or gives you directions to the nearest gas station, does that make them wrong?
But let’s clarify a bit more:
Suppose you said the following: “Many men are very bitter about being rejected, and this is sexually very unappealing.”
Whether true or not, this is a fair view to hold, since you are discussing the fact that bitterness is unappealing.
However, to use an accusation of bitterness as a way to deflect a point someone is trying to make is not fair debate.
I may be bitter. It might make me ugly. But it does not make me wrong.
Sacha 90
@starthrower68 #85
“… if Jack is going to make charges on this blog, he’s going to have to back them up with more than just “I know I’m right and that’s all that matters”. It’s basically argument by dismissal. There is never any actual refutation of what Karl says. ”
I think Jack is here to share his POV not to refute anyone or make charges. There is nothing that he has to prove. This is an internet blog, not a courtroom. I personally am not here to be trying to convince other people to change their opinions. This is not about proving who is right and who is wrong and whose opinion, POV or experience is right or wrong. Who are we to charge each other or to judge each other anyway?? According to whose criteria, moral values and beliefs is Right or Wrong going to be judged??
As Evan has said many times, this is not about what is right or wrong, it is about what is effective. You can argue with people and try to change their mind until you are blue in the face and you can spit statistics and numbers to 4 decimal places all you want. Is it effective? No. But keep doing it anyway, if that is what you want…
To link this back to the topic of checklists, let me illustrate how Jack’s opinion has helped me. In a different topic Jack shared that it was very important to him that a woman had a low NUMBER. It seems that this criterion is fairly high on his checklist. I personally do not care about the number. However, I make a mental note that there are men who care A LOT. (Obviously there are men, who like me, do not care about the number, but since they do not care, their opinion has no impact.) Therefore, I make the decision to never disclose my number to anyone from now on. I would not know if the man cares or not, so why risk putting off someone who does care? If asked, I will politely refuse to answer and make a joke about womens’ favourite number being 3. I will also mention in passing in a different conversation, that I have always been faithful to my ex over our 14 year relationship, and will let the man draw his own conclusions. I will not be trying to convince him to drop this criterion from his checklist, or to try to change his mind, or try to prove that he is wrong about the importance of the NUMBER.
Do I agree with Jack or other men who think like him about the importance of the NUMBER? No.
Will I try to prove they are wrong? No.
I will just do what is effective.
Is that manipulative and deceptive? Arguably.
Is it beneficial to Jack and others like him? No, but thank you for sharing and letting me know how to change my game
To the women here who disagree with Jack et al: pleeeease, think carefully whether you want to be right or happy.
Please do not scare off the Jacks, Deathslayers, Vinos, etc. Let them express their opinions. Understand that they are the ones you should be listening to most carefully, not the ones who tell you what you want to hear. As Evan says, you cannot change men, so change what you can – your attitude and behaviour. It does not mean you have to change your beliefs, values and morals!
jack 91
To be fair, I must explain the “number”. I never ask a girl her number. That is the least effective way of learning it – too obvious.
The number is discerned from casual conversation over a period of time. This never leads to knowing the exact number, but it gets you in the ballpark. Just like you suggest, Sacha, I do what is effective.
Women learn about men the same way – passively. Often during the course of normal conversation, a man will reveal things about himself that he may never reveal under direct questioning. Women are very skilled at this passive investigation style. This is because women are often far more socially aware than men, and have a better antenna for social signals. I am merely using it a bit myself.
Karl R 92
Sacha said: (#90)
“I think Jack is here to share his POV [...] In a different topic Jack shared that it was very important to him that a woman had a low NUMBER. It seems that this criterion is fairly high on his checklist.”
jack said: (in the post sacha mentioned)
“you won’t get a man to commit to you. Guys care about the number. Even ‘man-whores’ care about the number. True.”
Sacha,
jack doesn’t come across as sharing “his POV.”
When I share my point of view, I don’t act like I’m speaking on behalf of guys, men and man-whores. If I try to address what men believe (beyond my point of view), I try to ensure that my statements are supported by something beyond my own opinion. (That support could be an anecdote, a dictionary definition or anything else that is credible.)
If I’m offering advice (or insight, or a differing perspective), you’ll ignore what I say if you don’t believe it. You won’t necessarily believe my statement is “true” just because I say it’s true. You won’t necessarily believe my statement is true even if it’s right.
If jack wants to tell you his point of view, I can’t claim he’s wrong. When he starts telling you my point of view (and incorrectly, at that), I’m going to object.
jack said: (#88)
“And everyone generalizes. Even if they do not realize or admit it.”
People are a lot more willing to accept generalizations when it’s obvious that the speaker not only realizes that they are generalizing, but the speaker is also openly admitting it.
jack said: (#88)
“Should I risk hiring such an ‘apparent’ slacker on the off chance that they could be the best employee ever?”
This is a perfect example of a generalization that people are willing to accept. You’re acknowledging that the person appears to be a slacker. You don’t know whether or not they are, but you’re making a decision based on the information that you have.
If you talked this way all the time, you’d catch a lot less grief (if only because I’d be giving you considerably less grief).
jack said: (#50)
“Women have decided that being alone is a better deal,”
This is the kind of statement that pisses people off. You’re telling women what they have decided.
Since you haven’t read their minds, it sounds unbelieveably arrogant for you to tell them what they decided.
If you had instead said, “It appears to me that the majority of single women have decided that being alone is a better deal,” it becomes a potentially insightful statement.
Instead of having women line up to tell you that you’re wrong (since they know that’s not what they decided), you could have opened the door to an intelligent discussion of how women’s behavior is perceived by men.
It’s about being an effective communicator (which will not only make you “happy,” but also make you ”right” more often). I never tell my fiancée what she thinks. I always phrase it as a question. I avoid a lot of fights that way.
Ruby 93
Sacha #90
You say it doesn’t mean you have to change your beliefs, but isn’t that exactly what you are doing? Perhaps a man who cares that much about how many other men you’ve slept with (when the number of sexual partners isn’t an issue for you) wouldn’t be the right man for you. Why cater to a belief system that you yourself don’t adhere to? Not every man is right for every woman.
We’ve all had negative dating experiences, and yes, some of us have expressed bitterness and anger. Some of those experiences we’ve had no control over, but some, we do. Rather than simply blaming the other person – or an entire gender – isn’t it more productive to think about what we might have done differently as well, especially if it is true that we can’t change the other person? Not to take any responsibility for your own part in a given situation smacks of victimhood to me, and I don’t really find much of benefit in that perspective.
starthrower68 94
@ sascha #90 who are the men on here telling us what we want to hear? please point them out to me because i don’t know who those men are? and for the sake of discussion, let’s say that jack is absolutely correct, that women are bad based on the actions of some and that men are opting out of marriage and dating. that doesn’t seem too effective to me. if that is true as a general rule – and y’all seem pretty convinced that it is – then we can pretty much just kiss finding a good man goodbye. because they’ve opted out.
Sacha 95
#91
I agree that the subtle approach is a lot more effective. A direct question will make the conversation like a job interview and people will tell you what they think you want to hear: “So, tell me about your weaknesses?” “Well… sometimes I work too hard… People say I’m too nice… too patient with others… I put work above play…” etc.
And again to mention more of Evan’s wise advice: “Men reveal themselves in their efforts (and I would add “actions”). Their words don’t mean a thing. ” For example, if ‘commitment-oriented’ is on my checklist, I would not ask a man directly if he is commitment-oriented or if he is looking for a serious relationship.
That links well with Evan’s latest blog: http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/what-you-should-be-talking-about-on-the-first-date/
Ruby 96
Jack
Didn’t you say you’ve taken yourself out of the marriage market/dating game? So how has this knowledge you’ve discerned been an effective dating strategy for you? If you admit that your bitterness is unappealing, then how does that benefit you?
Evan Marc Katz 97
Not that my opinion matters much, but I think Jack has a valuable contribution to make, especially if he modulates his own words more effectively, as Karl suggested. He doesn’t speak for all men, but he does speak for many men – and then men he speaks for aren’t necessarily “bad” guys. They are generally known as “average, frustrated chumps”, and they are sick of the hypercritical nature of many women, those women’s desire for more impressive men, and their inability to land those same women.
As Jack himself said, just because he’s bitter, doesn’t mean he’s wrong.
In fact, I’ll put Jack in the opposite camp of perpetually negative, opposite-sex wary posters JerseyGirl and M, who never heard a valid criticism of women’s behavior that they couldn’t turn into a criticism of men’s behavior.
But, to be fair to Jack, at least he has a largely clear grasp of logic and the ability to reason. The reason I tend to side with Karl is that Jack – like so many women who love to argue with me – starts from the position that he’s right. And if you start from the position that you’re right, everyone who disagrees with you becomes inherently wrong. And most people don’t like others to tell them that they’re wrong – even if they ARE wrong. Without putting words in Jack’s mouth, it seems that he’s fed up with dating, women, games, hypocrisy and all the shenanigans that come with this process. Sound like anyone else who posts here regularly?
So ease up on our new male contributor, who actually has something useful to say. And Jack, if you can start seeing the glass half-full instead of half-empty, I’m sure you’ll have a better experience on this blog and with women overall.
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar – I’ll be the first to attest to that…
Bettina 98
PS: I LOVE JerseyGirl!!! I like Jack, too. Vinegar has its place…
Evan Marc Katz 99
JerseyGirl will no longer be joining us on this blog due to a nasty personal email that she sent me this week. If you love that kind of behavior, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Sacha 100
@Karl #92
Karl, regarding statements being supported by something more than an opinion and advice being ignored if I do not believe it: we have to agree to disagree on this.
My approach is that if the statement is regarding something that is subjective, whether I agree with it or not, I hear the other’s point of view. I do not have to question it, it does not have to be supported by “facts”, if it is a subjective matter. Believe me, I am a person who questions things that can be objectively qualified or quantified… I used to be a research scientist.
In the matter of relationships, I like to see as many different opinions and POV that do not match my own as possible. I will personally disagree with a lot of them, might even find some of them indefensible, but it doesn’t mean I will ignore them. If that is what another person thinks, they have a reason for it, based on their personal experience, background, morals, etc, and it is clearly subjective. Also, I would find it boring and tedious to listen to opinions that are exactly like my own, I do not learn anything new from such opinions.
@Ruby #93
Ruby, no I am not changing my beliefs. I still do not care about the number, and it makes no difference to me if the man cares about the number or not. These are his beliefs, I am not looking to change my own or his. Similarly, for example, I am not religious, but I married a catholic. It was fine with me that he was religious, I did not try to dissuade him and he did not try to change my beliefs either. These are not things on my “must have” list.
starthrower68 101
@ evan #97 i said to jack weeks ago that honey is more successful than vinegar but it fell on deaf ears. here’s where jack and i part company: i agree, being bitter does indeed not make him wrong. those women who pursue men out of their league and ignore the good guys reap what the sew and rightly so. but, to use myself as example, i take what jack says at face value. what i perceive he is saying is women are just bad, and good men want nothing to do with you other than occasional dating. fine jack’s right, his opinion is valid and yes he certainly can say what he wants. but the message this sends to women willing to give the good guys a chance is forget it, you’re wasting you’re time. ok then, i might as well just take the crazy cat lady route. and while i understand and empathize with jack’s frustration i don’t appreciate having a finger wagged at me, especially when we shoudn’t be doing it to men.
jack 102
I could, and would, modulate my words if I was trying to persuade others to agree with me. But I am not trying to do that.
Instead, I am giving you a look at the real me, not the me that uses a soft touch to win others over. I assure you, I am capable of diplomacy when circumstances call for it. But the fog of diplomatic tact tends to hide one’s true thoughts and motives.
I don’t care if the women here find my apparent bitterness unsexy. I’m not trying to attract them. Honey instead of vinegar? Sure, I suppose, but sometimes the strongest and most effective medicine has a strong taste.
I’m not trying to discourage anyone from dating, or from trying to find a loving relationship. But I am giving you a tough-love view of the battlefield. There have been a lot of casualties, and you should be aware of that fact. I would encourage people not to read my comments if blunt observations are not your style. It won’t hurt my feelings if you ignore me.
Starthrower is engaging in a touch of hyperbole by suggesting that I think that “women are just bad”. You can read it that way if you want. That is not what I said.
I am saying that many men have had enough, and though it may be the fault of other women, NOT YOU, it is still a reality. A man that exits the dating market due to the actions of other people is still just as gone. Experience enough picky dismissal and rejection, and you lose interest. Emotional damage takes its toll, and a guy checks out.
I’ve made my peace with singleness, for the most part. For those women who want a relationship, you are going to have to understand this aspect of men, and deal with the humanity of men with more empathy than the average woman seems to be willing to give.
Karl R 103
jack said: (#102)
“I am saying that many men have had enough, and though it may be the fault of other women, NOT YOU, it is still a reality. A man that exits the dating market due to the actions of other people is still just as gone.”
Evan said: (#97)
“Without putting words in Jack’s mouth, it seems that he’s fed up with dating, women, games, hypocrisy and all the shenanigans that come with this process. Sound like anyone else who posts here regularly?”
jack,
Let me spell out what Evan implied: over the years we’ve seen a couple hundred women say the exact same thing that you have. They give examples of the awful men they’ve dated (and some of them have actual horror stories, not just the typical bad actors that you mention). They state that men need to mend their ways (or insist that Evan tell the men to mend their ways). And they say they’re about to give up, or they just gave up, or they gave up long ago on dating.
Even though these hundreds of women are gone from the dating pool (and probably millions of other women just like them), I never ran out of women to date.
jack said: (#102)
“But the fog of diplomatic tact tends to hide one’s true thoughts and motives.”
If that’s the way you feel, I’ll repeat my fiancée’s undiplomatic response to your post:
“It’s good that he’s stopped dating. When men and women like that stop dating, the overall quality of the dating pool improves.”
If you read this blog, you can effortlessly find dozens of posts by women (and men) venting their frustration about the lousy men (and women) who comprise the majority of their dating pool. If you search very hard, you’ll eventually find the few posts from people (who invariably live in the middle of nowhere) who have run out of potential dates.
The common complaint is not about the number of available men. It’s about the quality.
You’re undiplomatically telling women that men like you are leaving the dating pool. But because of your blunt and undiplomatic tone, you sound like the kind of man they complain about dating.
And to the women who come here to vent and insist that Evan get men to change:
I may empathize with your dating frustration, but you come across the same way as jack does. If you want to motivate men to change, you need to sound like the kind of women men would want to change for.
jack said: (#102)
“I am giving you a look at the real me, not the me that uses a soft touch to win others over.”
The “real” you is dark and unpleasant?
For a moment here let’s imagine a hypothetical man who is perfect on paper: tall, athletic, attractive, well-educated, great job … apparently perfect in every way.
But once you get to know him, and you begin to see past the “soft touch” he uses to win people over, you discover that he’s negative, bitter, pure vinegar on the inside … and he excuses that aspect of himself by claiming it’s just the “real” him, and that his attitude is “strong medicine” and “tough-love” for those around him.
Would you introduce this man to your sister (or your mother, or a female friend) as a potential boyfriend?
Other than his personality, he can meet every criteria on even the longest checklist. Would you want your sister to date someone like that, or would you think she can do better?
The entire purpose for getting rid of the lengthy checklist is so women (and men) stop focusing on the irrelevant details and instead focus on the important details. Is the man a genuinely good person inside, not just when he’s using a soft touch to win a second date from a woman, but is he still a good person when he’s suffering setbacks that are taking an emotional toll?
My fiancée could have gotten a nicer man than me, except her checklist ruled out all the nicer men. Compared to the men she previously dated (neurotic, insanely jealous, etc.), I seem like a saint.
jack,
If the “real” you is what you’re showing us, then you need to find a woman with a checklist which rules out all the good men.
Collector 104
I’ve been following Jack’s comments since he began posting on this site and have been following this blog for years . I didn’t know this was a formal debate forum.
I think it’s ridiculous how so many of you have jumped down his throat because he’s making statements that you don’t want to hear. Ahem – I mean, don’t agree with.
As I said before, I think Jack is one of the few men on here that “tells it like it is”. No nit-picky, psychoanalytic debate, no mushy pandering to feminist.
This forum NEEDS men like this.
I support him. Get off of his back and let him state his opinions. If you disagree – you disagree.
jack 105
Karl-
As I have stated a few times before, I am okay with people saying “good riddance” about my expectation that I will never get married or be in a LTR.
If you think you can hurt my feewings by citing your fiance’s comment about dating pool cleansing, then have at it.
I don’t mean to be provocative here, Karl, but your obsession with my comments is beginning to make me question whether your screen name is a sock-puppet for a female commenter. If, in fact, you are actually a guy, I apologize. I’ve just never had a dude try to get that far into my head before. This is uncharted territory for me – be gentle.
To continue on with the “bitterness” theme, I used to be a really sweet guy. Probably to compliant and “beta” as they would probably say.
Throughout my 20s and 30s, I had an endless stream of single female friends say the following:
“You’re such a great guy. I wish I knew someone to set you up with. You’re such a catch.” Of course, I was never, ever that girl’s “type”.
Never once was I called bitter until after I had made my exit and began describing my reasons for doing so.
Ruby 106
I completely agree with Karl R, and I’m a bit surprised that others have rushed in to defend someone who couldn’t care less. When it comes to dating, everyone seems to want someone else to blame.
Actually, I’m not really sure why Jack is posting here to begin with. He’s not interested in dating, relationships, or marriage. He doesn’t care what women think of him. He wants us to know that he has “checked out.” He says “I am giving you a tough-love view of the battlefield”, without realizing that most of us have already experienced tough-love in the dating battlefield. We’re here to gain insights that go beyond vitriol and venting.
Jadafisk 107
“A man that exits the dating market due to the actions of other people is still just as gone. Experience enough picky dismissal and rejection, and you lose interest. Emotional damage takes its toll, and a guy checks out.”
But that’s the thing – if a man or woman exits the dating scene due to demoralization from lack of demand, and people who do this don’t constitute the majority of singles (which they don’t) it’s going to be like the proverbial tree falling in the forest. Also, Jack, surely you’ve been in the inverse situation where a woman who you thought was a perfectly fine person but you weren’t interested in romantically showed interest in you? It happens. There are matches and mismatches.
Karl R 108
jack said: (#105)
“If you think you can hurt my feewings”
I don’t care if I hurt your feelings.
I’m trying to point out that your effort to “provide insight” is backfiring.
If you are here to provide insight, and you genuinely don’t care that you’re sabotaging your own efforts, I have to wonder what you’re doing here. Are you just typing to keep your finger warm?
jack said: (#105)
“your obsession with my comments”
“I’ve just never had a dude try to get that far into my head before.”
I initially started contradicting you because you started making up your own facts, which is something I have made a habit of getting after people for before.
You also started women were the cause of your dating difficulties, so I pointed out how you might be more effective by altering your dating strategy. Evan and I completely agree on one fundamental concept: if dating isn’t working for you, it’s up to you to change. Normally we’re saying this to women, but the principle holds true for men too.
But then you made enough statements about your motives (more precisely, what you weren’t motivated by), to where your statements were inconsistent with your behavior. And then getting inside your head became interesting.
Or at least interesting enough to be personally amusing.
jack said: (#105)
“Throughout my 20s and 30s, I had an endless stream of single female friends say the following: ‘You’re such a great guy. I wish I knew someone to set you up with. You’re such a catch.’”
Throughout my 20s I repeatedly heard similar comments from married women. If I had been that great of a catch, I would have heard it from single women who wanted to date me.
So I changed what I was doing. Since my approach to dating wasn’t getting the results I wanted, I put in the effort to figure out what would get better results.
If you’re “beta” or compliant, you’ll just get the door slammed in your face. Being nice won’t get your foot in the door, but it does pay off in the long run. Someone previously said: “Women like nice guys with an edge.”
Given your lack of results, I suspect you have no edge.
Everyone in my circle of acquaintances knows that I carry a knife. I don’t make a big deal about it, but I’ve loaned it out enough times that everyone is aware that I have it. No woman has ever been scared off because of that.
Be noncompliant. If my date says something I disagree with, I tell her that I disagree and explain why. Surprisingly, they end up nodding and agreeing.
Have a plan. Alphas tell their dates the plan, then ask if she’s okay with it. Betas ask their dates what she wants to do.
The women with the ridiculously long checklists and the absurdly high standards can’t keep you from being successful at dating. She can only keep you from dating one woman (herself). You’re the only person who is capable of getting in your own way consistently.
Once you get it right, it still takes time. I dated steadily for over three years before I started dating my fiancée. But during those 3 years I dated plenty of women who were genuinely attracted to me. It was a lot more encouraging than what I experienced in my 20s.
jack said: (#105)
“Never once was I called bitter until after I had made my exit and began describing my reasons for doing so.”
When you describe your reasons, a lot of the time it sounds like you’re complaining. The rest of the time it sounds like you’re ranting.
In the past, I’ve exited the dating scene (though not permanently), and I’ve described my reasons, and nobody said I sounded bitter.
It’s back to that whole honey and vinegar thing.
Collector said: (#104)
“Get off of his back and let him state his opinions. If you disagree – you disagree.”
The people who disagree with jack are stating their opinions too. They’re telling it like they see it.
jack doesn’t get a free pass just because he’s making statements that you want to hear.
BeenthereDonethat 109
When I divorced 4 years ago, I made friends with other divorced women; we became like a support group, I suppose. I was the most recently divorced of the group. After a couple of months, I quit doing things with them. They are very nice ladies but every time we would get together, they would complain about men; their awful ex – husbands, the weirdo’s they had dated, the con-men their friends had dated/married and quickly divorced. I thought that if I listen to this attitude long enough, it might be something I start to believe; that listening to story after horror story about awful men, that I might come to the conclusion that men are asses – all men. I didn’t believe that then; I don’t believe that now.
I find that this board – for me – is becoming like that group of women; except it’s about how women asses. Be more yes, say less no’s, be open and inviting – even if you have been burned time and time again; don’t make any guy pay for the sins of past guys; accept men as they are. I actually get all of that, it makes perfect sense to me.
Now it’s men are disillusioned about dating; they have emotional baggage that we have to overcome; we should make up for the behavior of past women. We all have baggage; we have all been hurt; how is this different for guys?
I was married for 18 years. I KNOW marriage is work. I wasn’t unhappy in my marriage. BUT – I did 90% of the relationship lifting; even by his words, I was the keeper of our relationship. I said yes, I nurtured, I loved, I put him first. Here is what I know also – I would love to get married again – but only if it is a partnership. I’m not looking for a fixer-upper or a man I have to convince that I am a good person. I want the man who I don’t have to even say “no” to about anything – the kind of guy that I can tell what my concerns or reservations are and he tells me his and we talk about it. I am not looking to be another adult’s mother.
So since this board and its comments are become increasingly women negative; I’m going to say goodbye.
Nathan, Steve and Karl – thank you for being the men that you are; the kind of man I hope to meet (someday)
Evan – you are super funny! Good luck with your family
BeenThruTheWars – I love you stories and your comments.
Starthrower- we are much alike. Thank you for backing me up.
Jack – enjoy your singlehood.
Honey – best of luck on your marriage.
Everyone else: I have appreciated your thoughts; I have loved the comments almost as much as the article.
Bye
SS 110
@Ruby 106
Actually, I’m not really sure why Jack is posting here to begin with.
That’s the big question.
I don’t begrudge Jack his opinion and totally support him opting out of marriage if that’s his desire.
But one has to wonder why a man totally uninterested in marriage (or some other longer-term relationship) wants to comment on a board geared toward people (mostly women) who are seeking a relationship. It would be like Karl going on a parenting board and telling people why he doesn’t want kids. Based on what I’ve read from Karl, I don’t sense that he cares very much about the general debates in the parenting world since he’s not interested in going in that direction in his own life.
(Karl, hope you don’t mind me using you as an analogy… it seemed like the best example at the time)
Jack’s comments remind me of what I see in the so-called “manosphere,” where men are constantly focused on women’s sexual partner count, the fact that “alphas” get all the attention from women while “betas” are left behind, etc… and they come up with statistics about X% of men get the attention of 80% of the women… things that one can’t actually quantify, but it feels “real” to them.
And most of them say they’ve opted out of the dating marketplace — at least the Americanized/Westernized one — but they sure do spend a lot of time talking about the women they don’t want and say they don’t plan to date! It seems rather obsessive to spend so much time talking about the sexually promiscuous women they’d never pursue, or all of the foreign women who are so much better… and it’s really interesting when they go on about this on dating and relationship boards with a high percentage of women readers.
So it makes me wonder are they really trying to inform women of anything? Or “explain” something that women are missing? Or it is more of an effort to say “in your face” to women who are attempting to navigate the dating minefield as sort of a way to reclaim some sense of power?
I’m all for hearing male points of view and I don’t think I’ve ever fully agreed with everything various male posters have said… and the same goes for the female posters. But I can appreciate that most have the same goal here… to either find a quality, long-term relationship or share their stories about how they achieved that through the concepts that Evan has shared.
If finding a long-term relationship with a woman is not a man’s goal, then honestly, why is he spending time on a dating board? It just seems like someone happy with his choice to stay single could find a million better things to do.
Goldie 111
@BTDT #109,
(together for 22) I completely understand where you are coming from. Not sure at this point if I want to get married again, but I definitely want to end up with a long-term partner as opposed to short-term dating multiple people. From my experience, I know that, for this long-term partnership to work, the man and I must be, first of all, good, close friends. Everything else comes second.
I was married for 18 years too
But it is a tall order. Not every guy has it in him to become my close friend, and I his. So, to Jack’s point, if I don’t answer a guy’s email, if I terminate communication after a phone call, if I tell him after a first or second date that I don’t think it’s going to work out, it is not because I am a shallow, demanding bitch who’s just out to hurt good men and drive them away from the dating scene. It is in the guy’s best interests. He thinks he wants to be with me, but what he doesn’t realize is, we’ll be miserable together. It’s not because I’m a bad person, or he’s a bad person – we’re not – but because we are a bad match. We have so little in common that we’d both suffer together, trying to make the other person happy and failing every step of the way because we’re so different.
Likewise, with every guy that has turned me down, upon reflection, I realize that he and I would have never worked out as a couple. Different personalities, lifestyles, different expectations, different stages in life that he and I are at. Heck I just got dumped in the most painful way (over text, natch). I couldn’t eat for two weeks. I lost a crapton of weight. It still hurts on an emotional level. But, on a rational, logical level, I know full well that, if things had worked out and we’d have become a couple, I’d run away screaming after two weeks. Or, more likely, I wouldn’t run away screaming because I’d be too emotionally attached to do that. Instead, I’d be stuck in a miserable relationship, trying to live a lifestyle that is completely alien to mine and my family’s. Fun times…
What I am saying here, your being turned down might be the best thing that has ever happened to you. Count your blessings and move on. Personally, I look at my dating life as kind of an agile programming process, I guess. I do not start out with a full and complete knowledge of what I need in a partner, it’s a trial and error process – but, if, with each next iteration, I am getting closer to what I need, and to what the other person needs, then I am on the right track. Learn from experience and keep going. So far, I think I’ve been consistently getting closer. I am not there yet, but will be one day.
Lastly, I have really enjoyed Karl’s comments on this thread. Lots of good information for me there. Jack, you may want to stop doing to Karl what you claim he is doing to you, and let him speak, even though he disagrees with you on some points
starthrower68 112
@ Karl 108 & SS 110,
I think you both are spot on. I understand the frustration. There has been more than one person on here who has asked what the point is in trying to date, given the truisms. Of course pointing out that it appears Jack wants to wag his finger at the women here for the sins of others will get you the “feminist shaming language charge”. I understand someone wanting to vent on here, as dating is often a proces fraught with frustration and confusion. However, if I came on here and constantly wagged my finger at men, not only would I be called out for it, but I’d probably get a stern response from Evan. I have seen many on here who vent frustration without it looking like he or she is trying to lecture the other gender. It can be done. As I said before and will say again, I agree Jack can be angry and still be correct. But if he doesn’t care about anyone agreeing with him and stands fast in his mindset then exactly what is the objective here? Expressing a point of view is well and good and it’s important to read different ones but it goes deeper than that.
starthrower68 113
Oh and Been There Done That #109, sorry you’re leaving.
Karl R 114
Goldie said: (#111)
“it is not because I am a shallow, demanding bitch [...] It is in the guy’s best interests. [...] we’ll be miserable together. [...] we are a bad match.”
That’s been my motivation in almost every case where I’ve broken things off. Therefore, I’ve always operated under the assumption that women tended to make decisions in the same way.
However, (circling back to the original topic) it’s easy to use a checklist to rule someone out under the (incorrect) belief that you would be miserable together.
When I started online dating, I set my age range at 5 years older/younger. In my experience, my best relationships had been within that age range (3 years younger, 1 year older), and the relationships outside that range had age-related problems.
I gradually expanded the age range that I dated. Many of the new relationships also had age-related issues, but I had some noteable exceptions. At this point, my two best relationships are at the extreme ends of the age range I’ve dated (16 years older, 11 years younger). If I’d clung to the belief that we had too little in common, I’d have missed out on my best relationships.
Both of those women nearly ruled me out as well. For my fiancée, age was one of her reasons.
Evan’s wife didn’t meet multiple items on his checklist.
The real challenge is to not fall into the trap of assuming our own beliefs are infallible. Your “agile programming” metaphor seems appropriate.
SS asked: (#110)
“If finding a long-term relationship with a woman is not a man’s goal, then honestly, why is he spending time on a dating board?”
We could easily ask the same thing about Helen (the one who has been married for a very long time). But regardless of her reasons, I find her contributions extremely helpful.
jack has a perspective that few regular contributors share. That puts him in a position where he could make a unique and valuable contribution to the blog. I’m just of the opinion that he could deliver the same message more diplomatically and stop getting shot for being undiplomatic.
Bettina 115
@99: Don’t know nuthin’ ’bout your private email with JerseyGirl. I just always liked her POV.
@109: Agreed! Criticism alert: I, too, think this board is often off the mark with its push toward female compliance–unless a guy is outright abusive, of course, which seems to be the only time a woman gets to be “assertive.” Otherwise, the general mantra is to go along to get along, ignore everything you’ve learned in the world about “boys will be boys” behavior and “keep your heart open” just in case the next guy who comes along will the “the one” who won’t be a jerk (to you, of course–never mind all those others–true love reforms the bad boy).
@105: I hear ya, Jack!!! Dating/mating is more like a commodities market than a place where people find love and understanding. But god forbid you point that out or decide not to play. Or make this observation on a “dating” board (where people talk about men/women like commodities on a regular basis).
Evan Marc Katz 116
@Bettina – Given your comments, I’m not surprised you liked JerseyGirl’s POV, which was just as willfully blind as your own.
For the record, “boys will be boys” is true – since you can’t change men – but as long as those boys are treating you well, it doesn’t matter if they still watch football, play pool or go to the occasional bachelor party.
“Keep your heart open”, is still the ONLY way to fall in love, unless you think men tend to fall for women with their hearts closed.
And treating the next guy who comes along as if he has a chance to be the one is an inherently superior option to treating him like a jerk just because previous men were jerks.
Any one of those points you’d care to argue, Bettina?
So if those are the parts of my advice that you criticize, I’ll stand behind them all day, and make this correction for how you have (again) misquoted, misunderstood, or completely made something up about me:
I’ve never said anything remotely close to this: “true love reforms the bad boy”. What I have said is that the most important quality in a man is how he treats you.
If you read anything else into my hundreds of blog posts and newsletters based on your past traumas, I’m sorry.
But you’re beating a dead horse here and I’d be perfectly fine if you joined your pal JerseyGirl on another blog that always makes men wrong. You won’t learn anything, of course, but at least your POV will be validated by everyone present.
Bettina 117
Here’s a thoughtful article that sums up my views on the “boys will be boys” phenomenon.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/04/AR2006020400220.html
It’s curious to me that you water the behavior down to watching football, playing pool, and going to the occasional bachelor party. Not sure what kind of guys you’ve been hanging out with, but that isn’t usually what people are talking about when they use that as a defense of bad male behavior.
Question that I asked a guy friend of mine who was into the “harmless” strip joint visits to kick off his buddies’ nuptials: Would you ever marry a woman who worked as a “dancer” in such a place? A quick and indignant “NO!”
Why not?
Now he has a baby daughter. Haven’t asked him if that’s what he imagines for her future, but I suspect it would be a similarly indignant, “NO!”
Why not? It’s just harmless (and well-paid!) employment, isn’t it?
My comment to him: You are what you consume–no better, no worse.
Think about it.
Evan Marc Katz 118
@Bettina – You’re not going to get any traction with me. I’m the first to tell you to dump a guy for unacceptable behavior and accept a man for acceptable behavior. I’m sure we’d agree on what is acceptable and unacceptable. So why are you suggesting that I am giving men a free pass? In fact, I’d encourage you to show me one single example where I told a woman to put up with unacceptable behavior. If you can find it – and prove that I’m a sexist troglodyte who is really on a secret male empowerment trip under the guise of helping women (which is what JerseyGirl said to me), then I’ll let you continue to play here. If you can’t show me one example, I’d appreciate if you issued me an apology for misquoting me and wasting my time. Think about it.
Bettina 119
I think we would disagree on what is acceptable/unacceptable behavior. My view is a bit more fluid than yours. For me, behaviors fall into different categories of acceptability:
1) Stuff that is outright illegal
2) Stuff that is legal but morally repugnant
3) Stuff that is legal but offensive to a lot of people
4) Stuff that is legal but offensive/repugnant to an individual
We’d be able to agree on numbers 1-3, but on 4–nope. I can tell you that from reading what you’ve written. For instance, if a woman doesn’t want to be with a guy who goes to strip joints or looks at certain types of magazines, I believe she has the right to set that as a dealbreaker in her relationship. But if a woman on here says this, a lot of people will tell her (paraphrased) to get over herself, that she has low self-esteem, and that “boys will be boys.”
Actually, a lot of boys do not go in for this kind of thing (including my boyfriend and a few other guys I’ve dated; other guy friends report a similar disaffection for “male entertainment”). This is just one example–but I’m not Karl, so I’m not going to have someone go through posts from past years to find the relevant passages from this blog. (Sorry for the dis, Karl!)
A lot of women aren’t bothered by the aforementioned activities, and some women like to engage in them as well. No question. It’s just not truthful to say that “all men” do XYZ when it comes to personal behaviors like this, just as it’s not truthful to say that there’s something wrong with a woman if she opposes them for the variety of reasons there are to oppose them.
Not all men like football and pool, either. It’s not fair to anyone to suggest that certain activities are what “men do” because ”they’re men.” Especially when it comes to choices that fall in the private realm. (I vote for keeping them there!)
I don’t think you’re a sexist troglogdyte. And I never said you give men a free pass, so not sure where those things came from. Maybe someone else said them, and you’re thinking that I’m in that camp. Not really. I like a lot of what you say.
On other points: I know, I shouldn’t be playing here. It’s just so slow at work, and it’s interesting to see the fireworks erupt on this blog.
My job will pick up in September and then I won’t have any more playtime here, so not to worry.
Evan Marc Katz 120
Thanks for your very reasonable response, Bettina.
Your final point is where we depart – and we don’t even depart all that far.
“4) Stuff that is legal but offensive/repugnant to an individual”. All I’m saying is that if you find the behaviors of many men offensive/repugnant, due to your own personal sensitivities, you’re cutting off a considerable number of quality men to marry. Men like me, for example. One girlfriend dumped me because I looked at Maxim magazine and have a friend who had a bachelor party in Vegas (that I didn’t even go to!). She’s not “wrong” for being sensitive. I’m not “wrong” for being a typical guy. She was unable to accept this behavior; my wife can. Seems to me like she threw away a good relationship over something that is largely acceptable in society. And that’s all I do here – report what men are really like – and play to the majority, not the minority.
If you want a man who has never had a one night stand, who has never looked at internet porn, who never even looks at an attractive woman in your presence, you are perfectly entitled to that. I don’t blame you and I see why it’s desirable.
It’s just not very realistic, that’s all.
On this, I think we can agree.
Karl R 121
Bettina said: (#115)
“the general mantra is [...] ‘keep your heart open’ just in case the next guy who comes along will the ‘the one’ who won’t be a jerk”
jack said: (#102)
“I am saying that many men have had enough, and though it may be the fault of other women, NOT YOU, it is still a reality. [...] Experience enough picky dismissal and rejection, and you lose interest. Emotional damage takes its toll, and a guy checks out.”
jack said: (#70)
“But there are good men who have had enough of the dating game. Some may be salvageable for those of you willing to put in the effort.”
Bettina,
Would you agree with me that jack is no longer “keeping his heart open” to a relationship? Would you agree that he has “checked out” due to “picky dismissal and rejection”?
Do you want to “put in the effort” and “salvage” jack so he can be your boyfriend?
He’s available. You seem to agree with him. Why not pursue a relationship with him?
And even if jack’s not in a geographically good location for you, I agree with his assessment that there are lots of men like him. There are plenty who live in your area. Have you “put in the effort” to “salvage” any of those men?
Even if it didn’t occur to you to do so before, are you going to rush out and “salvage” one of these men?
If you’re not interested in “putting in the effort” to ”salvage” an “emotionally damaged” man who is ready to “check out,” why would you expect men to be interested in putting in that kind of effort?
Bettina said: (#115)
“For instance, if a woman doesn’t want to be with a guy who goes to strip joints or looks at certain types of magazines, I believe she has the right to set that as a dealbreaker in her relationship.”
You have that right. It’s going to really shrink your dating pool.
According to an research by the University of Montreal:
“Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s who had never been exposed to pornography with regular users. But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they failed to find a single man who had not seen it.”
As A-L said (#53), a really short checklist can still hamper your dating if it eliminates almost everyone.
Bettina said: (#115)
“Actually, a lot of boys do not go in for this kind of thing (including my boyfriend and a few other guys I’ve dated; other guy friends report a similar disaffection for ‘male entertainment’).”
Of course, there’s absolutely no chance that your boyfriend would lie about something like this…
(If Bettina’s boyfriend is reading this … sorry Dude.)
Ruby 122
Bettina #115
<<@105: I hear ya, Jack!!! Dating/mating is more like a commodities market than a place where people find love and understanding. But god forbid you point that out or decide not to play. Or make this observation on a “dating” board (where people talk about men/women like commodities on a regular basis). >>
If you want to read a post where women are spoken about like commodities, I’d suggest you read (or re-read) Jack’s post #50.
Bettina 123
@120: I think you’re misunderstanding what I said. First off, I do know men who have not had one-night stands, and I do know many men who speak out quite eloquently against all sort of p*rn. In the US, everyone–man, woman, and child–has probably seen it. That is not the same thing as using it, liking it, condoning it, accepting it, or leaving it out on your coffee table when guests come by. And I have what I want in my relationship, so I have found that my desires–my list, if you will–have been quite realistic. Guess I’m just lucky! Or perhaps, since the denominator is me, I’ve drawn to me exactly what I want, work for, held out for, and deserve.
What is really unrealistic is the assumption that a majority of women are ever going to get behind men’s use of p*rn that presents women as things to be consumed by men who can’t control themselves (boys being boys). Yes, a lot of women don’t say anything when presented with this argument. But women wouldn’t ever lie (withhold the truth) about something like this, would they?
@121: Karl, you are so off the mark. Just because you don’t know any men who find p*rn “demeaning,” to use my boyfriend’s word, says more about you than about men at large. And the fact that you think a man would have to lie to keep his habit hidden just goes to show what you don’t know. He would never be with anyone he had to lie to like that, and I would never require it. He was actually highly insulted when I suggested that he might hide something like that (because “all men do,” as we know). His response, very quietly: “There are men who think about how their behavior affects other people, you know.” It was actually a big issue one Sunday afternoon, and thank god I was able to throw off my own indoctrination that I, as a woman, have to go along with this to get along. Like the males in the article I linked to above, a lot of guys do not want to be in your boys club. And they don’t want to be with women who go along with that mentality. (I could have lost him that day–foolishly!!)
Bettina 124
@121: Sorry–just read the whole response.
1) I don’t think Jack needs to be “salvaged” and I was mocking that mantra about the open heart, not promoting it.
I think Jack is doing just fine. If he chooses to stop dating–a good choice, in my book. If he chooses to go back in–also a good choice. I myself am not in the dating pool because I have a boyfriend I’ve known for nearly 20 years; meaning, I’m not looking around and neither is he. But yes, I don’t find Jack’s position to be off-putting in the least, so it wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me in knowing him and liking him.
2) For those who are dating, if you see the process as a search based on criteria: there is the general search, which is a numbers game, and there is the advanced search, which yields fewer results but would be a more efficient use of time if the requirements are very specific. Didn’t meet my guy that way, so I can’t give any advice on how to meet a non-dating-pool guy, one who might defy the stereotypical stuff that statistics are made of.
3) The researchers you mention should have gone outside the US. Adult entertainment is a form of media, so you’d have to find a place that hasn’t been influenced (or taken over) by American media in this regard. I’ve travelled/worked/studied extensively outside the US. It’s changing rapidly with the internet, of course, but a lot of countries have (or had) bans on adult entertainment and you’d be able to find subjects from those places. If they’d be willing to be subjects of such a study. Doubtful. The guys I know who didn’t see any of this stuff until they were adults (ex pats in the US, from very different cultural backgrounds) were disgusted, they said, when they first saw it and never developed a taste for it. Another guy I know went in the other direction and developed a very destructive habit that he sought counselling for because it was ruining his life.
4) Recalling some earlier line of reasoning about this stuff: Why do men go after younger, prettier women and look at p*rn? Because they can. The addendum: Why do women refuse to accept this in their partners? Because they don’t have to–anymore. Summation: Each to his or her own.
Jennifer 125
Bettina #124
I just want to point out there are many different kinds of pornography and just because someone finds one kind distasteful doesn’t necessarily mean they would feel the same about another.
Not suggesting you need to become a porn fan, obviously, but I just wanted to put that out there in generally.
If 2 girls 1 cup was the only ‘porn’ I’d ever seen, I’d be disgusted too. Red Shoe Diaries probably wouldn’t have many folks arranging protests though.
Karl R 126
Bettina said: (#123)
“the fact that you think a man would have to lie to keep his habit hidden”
I don’t think most men need to lie. Most of the time, men just need to keep their mouths shut (most girlfriends don’t bring up the topic, neither do we).
I think you’re naive for thinking you can get an true response about this. If one of your friends asks you a question that has an obvious right answere (for example, your best friend asks you, “Do you think I look fat?”) what answer is she going to get? She gets the right answer (“No”) regardless of whether it’s the true answer.
You have strong opinions about porn. If a man cares about your opinion of him, he’s going to give you the “right” answer.
I don’t ask questions that have a “right” answer. It cuts down on the number of lies I’m told.
My fiancée doesn’t care whether I watch porn. If she wants to ask me about porn, she can get the complete and absolute truth, no lies, no evasions, no leaving details out.
Bettina said: (#123)
“Just because you don’t know any men who find p*rn ‘demeaning,’ to use my boyfriend’s word, says more about you than about men at large.”
That’s a good way to avoid having to lie about porn (if he actually believes it’s demeaning).
It also works to call porn “immoral” (when talking to women who obviously disapprove). The women assume that I don’t have that immoral habit.
A friend of mine from college has performed in a few gay porn films. He didn’t find it demeaning to be in them. If the people acting in the porn don’t feel that it’s demeaning to them, is it actually demeaning? (If they do feel it’s demeaning, I would highly recommend a career change.)
Earlier in this thread (#119) you said “(Sorry for the dis, Karl!)”
Now if I don’t find your comment disrespectful, was your comment disrespectful? What makes a comment disrespectful? Is it you intent as the person who says it? Is it my perception as the person it was about? Is it the opinion of the other people who read the comment?
If all parties agree, the answer is obvious. If they don’t all agree, whose opinion determines whether the comment was disrespectful?
Similarly, whose opinion determines whether porn is demeaning? Is it just your opinion (and the opinion of the people who agree with you)? If so, that’s a fairly egocentric view of the situation.
Why do you consider porn to be demeaning? Is it because you think the women (and men) who act in it are lower than other people?
I think they’re people.
And that difference between us tells me a lot about you as a person.
Bettina said: (#123)
“His response, very quietly: ‘There are men who think about how their behavior affects other people, you know.’”
Another great answer. No mention of whether he watches porn. No mention of whether he’s lying. No mention of how watching porn affects others. No mention of whether he cares about the effect. No mention of whether he’s one of the men who thinks about his behavior.
With answers like this, there is absolutely no need for him to lie to you.
Let’s consider how porn affects others:
Some people chose to do several hours worth of work. A large percentage enjoyed their work. (The exceptions stuck out like sore thumbs; porn stars aren’t brilliant actors.) They got paid well for the amount of time invested (even for the few who have high-paying day jobs).
That amount the performers got paid was miniscule compared to the amount the company owner made (just like most of the jobs I’ve had).
Some of the performers used their money wisely. Others used their money to fuel self-destructive habits. (If you bought Amy Winehouse’s music, are you in any way responsible for her overdose?)
And I ended up spending my time viewing porn. Downtime which I otherwise would have spent watching TV or playing computer games.
My firewall filtered out a significant amount of viruses and malware sent from the porn sites, thus justifying my payment to McAfee.
Which effect did you find particularly objectionable?
Bettina said: (#123)
“p*rn that presents women as things to be consumed by men who can’t control themselves”
Are sports stars “things to be consumed” by fans who “can’t control themselves”? Or are sports stars providing entertainment to people who enjoy watching them? (From an economics standpoint, atheletes and entertainers could be viewed as commodities, but that doesn’t necessarily provide an accurate picture of who they are.)
Do you watch your favorite TV shows because you “can’t control yourself”? Or do you watch those shows because you enjoy watching them? How well would you react if your boyfriend insisted that you stop watching your favorite shows just because he didn’t like them?
Your choice of words demonstrates the extent to which you dislike porn, but it also displays a complete ignorance of how men think of porn.
Bettina said: (#124)
“The researchers you mention should have gone outside the US.”
They were from the University of Montreal. They started outside the U.S.
Bettina said: (#124)
“a lot of countries have (or had) bans on adult entertainment”
The majority are the same countries that have Sharia laws.
I’m curious. Do you find Sharia laws demeaning to women?
Evan Marc Katz 127
Honestly, Bettina, I would be outmatched arguing with Karl. So how about we agree that Bettina is speaking on behalf of her feelings which are valid, but limited to her experience and those who share her worldview, while Karl is speaking objectively about the vast majority of men. And if 91% of men consume porn and 95% of men end up getting married by the end of their lives, can we really state that all of these men have negative views of women and disgusting sexual impulses that are a threat to their relationships?
I kind of think it’s a case of men being men. As we’ve established, Bettina, you just don’t want to accept many men as they are. You’re fortunate to have found a boyfriend that you can accept, as he is in the vast minority.
Oh, and he’s not superior to the vast majority of men who prefer porn either. He simply is to you.
Gem 128
Try as you might Karl, you can’t debate Bettina’s “feelings” and “preferences,” which, in this case for her, are also grounded in her morality.
That many (or even most) men like porn doesn’t matter. There ARE men who don’t care for it. I know a few myself. Friends who have no reason to lie to me and there is no “right” answer. Their reason: not because of morality, but because it doesn’t possess enough of a draw to keep them coming back. They can take it or leave it in other words, and prefer to leave it for a real warm-blooded, breathing woman.
Suggesting Bettina’s man is possibly lying to strengthen your stance isn’t fair. She KNOWS the guy. Not all men feel they have to hide or lie. He probably IS one of those alien men who don’t care for it.
Her bigger point is that a woman shouldn’t accept something that is unacceptable to her because she fears she’ll never find a like-minded man or is told repeatedly that ”all men are X, so you just have to deal with it.”
Christie Hartman 129
This is such a GREAT topic.
I actually had the opposite experience that Steve (#1) discussed. I, after ending a very long relationship, decided to experiment and date outside my “type.” I dated a musician, a Republican, a guy who never went to college, a guy who wasn’t physically fit, guys who were much younger than I. And I had a fun time. But, in the end, I wound up being happiest with my original “type.” However, my type didn’t need to be a certain height, make a certain amount of money, or have a certain career. I just wanted someone like me, someone I jived with.
I think it can be helpful to have a list, as long as the list has substantive qualities on it, and that you view the list as a work in progress that will change as you acquire more experience. Also, the importance of a list depends on the person – people who wind up in bad relationships may need a longer list. People who are perpetually single need a shorter one.
And here is a message for the men who get frustrated with picky women: Don’t sweat it. These women will learn that their pickiness will not pay off. And if they don’t, they’ll wind up single.
Karl R 130
Gem said: (#128)
“They can take it [porn] or leave it in other words, and prefer to leave it for a real warm-blooded, breathing woman.”
I strongly prefer sex with a woman to porn. If your goal is to find a man who prefers sex to porn, you will have an easy time finding one who meets that criterion, and I would recommend avoiding any man who prefers porn to sex (unless you don’t like sex).
On the other hand, I prefer porn to watching reruns. Given that choice, are you certain your friends would choose reruns?
Since it’s been more than a year since I last watched porn (unlike 87% of men), I could honestly claim that that I can “take it or leave it”. I could also claim that I don’t watch porn regularly (which is completely accurate for the last two years, even though I watched it regularly beforehand).
Your male friends told you the exact same thing that I told my female friends. No need to lie. I was just a bit vague on the details (because I had no motive to give them accurate details).
Gem said: (#128)
“She KNOWS the guy. Not all men feel they have to hide or lie.”
My fiancée doesn’t care. Therefore, I have no reason to hide or lie. (I still don’t talk about it much, because I doubt she wants to hear about it.)
Bettina has implied that she would dump any man who liked porn. Therefore, if a man likes porn and wants to date Bettina, he has to lie.
If you had to decide between telling a lie or telling the truth and losing a boyfriend whom you didn’t want to lose, which would you choose? A lot of people say that they would tell the truth, regardless of the consequences. It’s a rare person who tells the truth when actually confronted with the situation.
I’m in a position where I don’t have to hide or lie. Every boyfriend of Bettina’s is either a statistical anomaly, or he does have to hide and lie.
Even if Bettina’s boyfriend is an evangelical christian, it’s more likely that he’s lying to her.
Gem said: (#128)
“Her bigger point is that a woman shouldn’t accept something that is unacceptable to her because she fears she’ll never find a like-minded man”
As long as a person considers being single to be a viable alternative, they don’t have to accept anything they find remotely unacceptable.
You can keep any (or every) item on your checklist. It just hampers your ability to find a partner.
And we’re also getting into a fine point about what constitutes “accepting”. If Bettina refuses to accept a man who watches porn, and she ends up with a man who has watched (or does watch) porn without her knowledge, has she accepted it or not? It depends on how you define the word.
Since I’m not omniscient, I have to accept the unknown. I’m not so afraid of the unknown that I’m going to pretend it doesn’t exist.
Gem said: (#128)
“you can’t debate Bettina’s ‘feelings’ and ‘preferences,’”
She feels whatever she feels.
But in my experience, reality has never changed to match my feelings and preferences.
And as I pointed out earlier in this thread (regarding age), adapting my feelings and preferences to match reality turned out to be a successful strategy.
Bettina 131
Laugh! EMK and Karl, you guys really don’t know much about me or my boyfriend. Thanks for the nod to my feelings, EMK–marriage has truly made you a much more empathic fellow, and I give large credit to your wife for what I suspect is a very gentle way of teaching you about women!!! I love her!!!
I don’t see this as a feelings vs. reality issue, though, and my feelings are fine. So I will proceed cautiously, and get back to the feelings issue at the end.
Karl: Culturally, Canada is hardly different from the US, given the geographic proximity and the common language/history/formative ethnicities (don’t tell any Canadian that I said that, though). Given that when I’m talking about other cultures I mean, you know, places where people speak other languages and have different religions and complex histories that don’t involve the US, it didn’t even occur to me to consider Canada as a “different country” from the US. Technically that is incorrect, and I apologize to the Canadians, who really don’t want to be lumped in with us.
So, to clarify: Countries that have or have had either legal bans or cultural bans on adult entertainment within the last 75-80 years, say, include the (now former) Soviet bloc nations, some Scandinavian countries, India, some Asian countries, and Middle Eastern countries. This is changing, as I mentioned. Most of these countries do not have Sharia law, and the reasons for these bans have been varying, depending on the cultures. I would imagine that there are a lot of men in orthodox religious communities here in the US who have been unexposed as well. But you’d have to actually know a lot of different types of people and have had a lot of different types of worldly experiences to have encountered these people. Knowing them well enough to have them discuss these kinds of issues with you adds a whole other level of complexity to data collection problem.
Jennifer@125: I know and have seen a lot of adult entertainment of all varieties and I don’t care if people use it. But it’s like smoking–people who don’t want to be around it for various reasons–whether it’s because they think it’s unhealthy, distasteful, immoral, just don’t get off on it or whatever–have that right. I’ve smoked a cigarette or two. Still, I find smoking repulsive physically and really resent being forced to breathe other people’s smoke in public places, and I don’t/won’t have it in any environment I have control over. It wasn’t that long ago that smoking was allowed in offices and restaurants, and adult materials/jokes/talk were just what the gals at the office had to put up with. Notice that now most companies have software that blocks these kinds of sites and strong policies about the use or dissemination of adult materials in a professional environment. Why is that? Why was Anthony Weiner so publicly shamed and humiliated if, you know, boys being boys on the internet is OK and something we all just need to get over?
Karl, your argument is that I am clearly so judgmental that my boyfriend has to lie to me to hide his “real nature” is, again, a boys-will-be-boys argument that insults women and the men who don’t go along with your definition of what “boys” behavior includes. You just cannot accept that there are men who aren’t into it, can you? What is that about?
Here is a sampling of some other “truths” that I have heard about men–truths that have been rationalized by the “boys will be boys” line:
*All men cheat.
*Men don’t want to get married and have to be tricked into it.
*Men don’t want to hurt women, they just want to rape them. (I know–that’s the best one. A quote in a news article about a huge gang assault in Africa.)
But if a woman on here expresses any of these beliefs about men–beliefs that stem from the “boys will be boys” rationale that we all (meaning women AND men) have been subjected to for so many years, she’s is soundly attacked as being man-hating and not open to men and doomed to a life alone and etc.
If you’ve noticed, what qualifies as OK in “boys being boys” behavior has changed rapidly over the last few decades (and, I might point out, even in you, post-marriage EMK, which is what I was getting at earlier in your use of the word “occasional” to qualify the strip joint visits; I don’t think you would have used that qualifier four years ago). Don’t you think it’s time to make room for people who don’t want to be either lumped in or forced to go along with ”the boys” like a hapless Canadian with an American?
I know that now Karl is going to come up with a bunch of studies that show how many men (in the US/Canada) “use” p*rn–whatever that means and which is never defined. What we will not ever get is a study on the men who don’t “use” it (Karl holds that there aren’t any to study, so we don’t need to go there).
And what we REALLY never get is a study about female desire and satisfaction. Even when a couple goes into counseling for the p*rn issue it’s never about what she wants–it’s all about her negative “feelings” and how can we get her to open up to accept his desires and preferences without judgement. Well, let’s consider the possibility that the “feelings” that women have about adult entertainment stem not from their being naive, controlling harpies who want to spoil the boy’s fun but from the fact that he’s getting off and she’s not. Adult entertainment is never about what the woman wants and needs physically to get off. And newsflash–that ain’t it. As I mentioned before–I don’t like guys who use adult materials because they do not get the female body and are terrible to be with.
And here is the reality that will never change to match the guy’s feelings: You may think that Jenna Jameson is all that for a romp, but she isn’t real, and you are never going to have her. Adapting one’s feelings and preferences to match reality is a very successful strategy.
My boyfriend learned how to get a woman off by doing it, long before the first time he saw p*rn, when he was in his mid 20s. He finds online p*rn and strip shows to be aesthetically displeasing and because he knows the difference between women who are into it and those who aren’t. Also, he would never use his credit card online to buy anything. He’s a real Luddite.
Gem 132
Karl,
If your goal is to find a man who prefers sex to porn, you will have an easy time finding one…
No doubt. The point was, there are, in fact, men who do not consume porn for various reasons. One of which is that it doesn’t do anything for them. Rare, I know, but true. So when Bettina says her man doesn’t like porn, I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt of knowing her man as opposed to saying he could be/ probably is lying or hiding. She’s known the guy for 20 years.
My fiance doesn’t care, therefore I have no reason to hide or lie.
Point taken and I understand what you’re saying. But as you pointed out, she could be lying or hiding her real feelings on the matter because she doesn’t want to appear insecure or uncool or a prude. Who knows? Women hide their true feelings too for various reasons. Do you know your woman more than Bettina knows her man?
And btw, my friends weren’t vague on the details….we discuss this subject, as well as others, at length. I watch porn so trust me, they did not feel the need to lie to me based on assumed judgement. I value these men for our closeness, and blunt honesty.
As long as a person considers being single to be a viable alternative, they don’t have to accept anything they find remotely unnacceptable.
Agreed. In this case, though, we’re not talking about Bettina nixing men for ANYTHING she finds REMOTELY unacceptable. We’re talking about one issue that she has raised that she won’t bend on.
Considering the majority of men like porn and will partake in it at least sometime throughout their lives, she has a tougher job of finding her like-minded man. But short supply or not, they are out there. She refused to settle, and she found one. Good for both of them! Trying to plant in her mind that he probably felt pressure to lie is just your opinion without basis.
You’re assuming this guy knew Bettina’s zero tolerance policy about porn before they had the convo. Maybe not. In which case, he wouldn’t have felt the incentive to lie (to keep her). Also, there are the rare folk who do tell the truth, regardless of the outcome because they have integrity, and find the idea of lying/hiding their true selves abhorrent. I’m one of those weirdos
Maybe her guy is too!
Bettina 133
Gem@132: Wow–thanks!!! Also, the convo was really a very, very funny one and I might recount it on here at some point. I just loved him so much after we had it, too.
He really does not get men who prefer poorly executed fantasy media over the reality of a woman he knows and trusts in his bed. This has come up many times in the years I’ve known him. But you know who he would hide the truth about his preferences from? People who say things about what “all men do.” He would get out of that conversation very quickly.
Also, I have had many love affairs with men who used the stuff, so I didn’t used to have a zero tolerance policy. I’ve just developed that over the years because, like I said, they were usually really ignorant about how a real woman’s body works and definitely insensitive to emotions surrounding s*x. I’d have been more into it if it actually did reflect any reality. It could be a very useful tool in educating males on what’s going on down there. Sadly, never the case. And once I discovered the fun/joy/pleasure of the non-p*rn guy, I was hooked. Will never go back!!!
Nicole 134
I find it odd that Bettina thinks that men in sexually repressed countries do not use porn when it is available to them or that they’d tell the truth to a woman, even a researcher, when asked. Men are men, women are women, and humans are humans and I don’t think you have to be raised around it to be titillated by it. Some might be repulsed, but others will think “where have you been all of my life?” (and I know Hindus who basically had that reaction when they finally tried burgers and steaks for the first time, so no, being raised to think something is wrong does not mean that you are incapable of making your decision about its place in your life).
Osama Bin Laden had a stash of porn in his hideaway, and in cultures that are extremely strict, people are even more secretive and lie even more about their usage of such materials (especially since in some of the countries she mentioned, possessing said materials could result in serious consequences). There is so much hypocrisy everywhere when it comes to sex.
I also find it odd that she types porn and sex as if they are bad words, but it does jibe with her opinions about them. I do wish we’d stop acting as if all men are one way, and all women are another, or maybe at least as far as sex is concerned. There might be some gender differences but it’s kind of tiring to see women try to argue that everything having to sex is somehow demeaning to women and that all of these poor women are being forced to have kinky sex by porn crazed men.
At any rate, off topic but it’s been an amusing read.
DancingFaun 135
It is pretty funny that someone who is lecturing people about “reality” is doing so in defense of porn.
I also think it’s funny that guys think that women who are paid for sex (or who get some financial advantage from a sexual relationship with a guy) are going to tell the truth about their sexual experience with him.
Karl R 136
Gem said: (#132)
“You’re assuming this guy knew Bettina’s zero tolerance policy about porn before they had the convo. Maybe not. In which case, he wouldn’t have felt the incentive to lie (to keep her).”
As a man, I’ve never assumed a woman was tolerant about porn unless she broached the topic first and gave her opinion.
If a man has (or hears of) a woman get upset over porn use, he’ll probably err on the side of caution with women in general.
For the vast majority of the women I’ve dated, i couldn’t tell you what their opinion on porn was. They didn’t bring up the topic, and I kept my mouth shut.
Gem said: (#132)
“she could be lying or hiding her real feelings on the matter because she doesn’t want to appear insecure or uncool or a prude. Who knows?”
That’s entirely possible. I don’t read minds.
She volunteered that she wasn’t bothered about an ex-boyfriend’s regular trips to strip clubs, which led into the conversation.
Since she dated him for 5 years and has dated me for 2 years, her actions lend credibility to her statements.
Bettina said: (#133)
“you know who he would hide the truth about his preferences from? People who say things about what ‘all men do.’”
Neither Evan nor I have made statements about all men watching porn. But I’m perfectly willing to point out research that shows what a staggeringly high percentage of men watch porn.
I had believed the percentage was lower until I began looking up some statistics on it.
Bettina said: (#133)
“studies that show how many men (in the US/Canada) ‘use’ p*rn–whatever that means and which is never defined.”
Every study I linked to defined how they measured “usage”.
Try reading the articles before you complain about their shortcomings.
Bettina said: (#133)
“And what we REALLY never get is a study about female desire and satisfaction.”
Never?
That took one google search. It was the first out of 4.7 million results. I doubt all of them are relevant, and some are going to be duplicates, but I’d be surprised if there were fewer than a hundred studies easily available.
You never get those studies if you never look.
Bettina said: (#133)
“I’d have been more into [porn] if it actually did reflect any reality. It could be a very useful tool in educating males on what’s going on down there.”
For educational tools I’d recommend sources that are more technical and less titilating.
Men could similarly complain that erotic romance novels aren’t realistic either. Apparently, that’s not what the customers want. (I was chatting with an author/editor a few weeks ago.)
Gem 137
Gem said: (#132)
“You’re assuming this guy knew Bettina’s zero tolerance policy about porn before they had the convo. Maybe not. In which case, he wouldn’t have felt the incentive to lie (to keep her).”
Karl Responded: (136)
As a man, I’ve never assumed a woman was tolerant about porn unless she broached the topic first and gave her opinion.
If a man has (or hears of) a woman get upset over porn use, he’ll probably err on the side of caution with women in general.
Fine, but that’s YOU. We’re talking about Bettina’s guy. You insinuated that he probably gave her the “right” answer about porn because he knew her attitudes about it and had to lie in order to keep her.
Just because you carry assumptions of women and porn, and choose not to bring it up unless they do, and be vague about the whole thing, or give the “right” answer, doesn’t mean her guy does the same. Your heavy insinuations that he felt pressure to lie/hide and probably did, again, is a baseless judgement of him.
Helen 138
Hee! How did a post about checklists evolve into a discussion of porn and Bettina’s man?
I never had a checklist for any of the men I dated. But I did have a list of things I would not tolerate, so maybe it was a negative checklist of sorts. A checklist not to say, “He MUST have these qualities,” but instead, “He must NOT be abusive, violent, sociopathic (i.e., cruel to others), or disrespectful.” I know it sounds strange to lump in the last with the first three, because the first three are much worse; but I’ve seen so many marriages fall apart because the husband disdained the wife (often in public) that I knew I couldn’t tolerate it in marriage.
As long as a man wasn’t any of these things, I gave him a chance. He could be overweight. He could be short. He could be much less educated (e.g., not finish college). He could earn much less. He could have completely different hobbies from my own. He could be any race. I can think of at least one male friend in each of these categories that I would have considered marrying. Ended up marrying a taller and fitter man who earns more, but we have different hobbies and are different races.
Karl R 139
Gem said: (#137)
“Your heavy insinuations that he felt pressure to lie/hide and probably did, again, is a baseless judgement of him.”
8 years ago a panhandler told me that 98% of the people on the streets are mentally ill or adicts (which is reasonably accurate). He then told me that he was part of the 2% who were on the street due to circumstances beyond his control.
I considered what he said and decided there was a 98% chance that he was lying to me.
Baseless judgment? Perhaps. But I run into the same pandhandler every few years, and each time he tells me that he’s only been on the streets for 2 weeks. Betting on the 98% is a lot more sensible than betting on the 2%.
We start learning how to give people the “right” answer by the time we’re in kindergarden. Bettina’s boyfriend is presumably capable of doing so with the sophistication of any other adult.
People lie so often that we’re unable to keep track of how often we do it. One of the frequent things men lie about is porn use.
The percentage of men who watch porn is so staggeringly high that I can’t get a reliable number of how few men don’t watch it. The majority of men who are morally opposed to porn watch it. The majority of men in relationships watch it. 87% of men have watched it in the last year (some mix of regular and occasional users) and I’m one of the 13% exceptions (a regular user except when I’m in a relationship).
It is possible that Bettina’s boyfriend doesn’t watch porn. Bettina is betting on the 2%. I am betting on the 98%. (Figuratively speaking, but the actual odds may be in that vicinity.)
Expanding this back to the topic at hand (checklists in general):
If a woman has “no porn users” as one item on her checklist, which do you think she is more likely to end up with, a man who never uses porn, or a man who lies and tells her what she wants to hear?
If an item on your checklist doesn’t reliably get you what you want, what good is it?
Similarly, Bettina implied (#133) that men who don’t use porn are more skilled sex partners than men who do.
I’m aware of four traits that make a man/woman a better sex partner. Porn is unrelated to all four. I’m unaware of any studies, but logic indicates that porn use and sexual skill are unrelated.
If “great sex partner” is the actual goal, it makes sense to have that on the checklist instead of an unrelated trait (porn use) or semi-correlated trait (prior experience). It’s not even difficult to find out whether someone is a great sex partner.
Gem 140
Karl,
You are very logical and reasonble and I enjoy your opinion of things. However, people are a bit more complicated than stats, averages and percentages. You can “bet” Bettina’s guy is lying if you want, but,
I’m not betting either way.
We have a website here where people write in with problems and angst about relationships all the time. Everyone’s goal is to find a partner they can love, accept, and be happy with. Bettina seems to have done so.
She’s happy. He must have shown himself to be a man of honesty over the course of 20 years and she believes what he says. Good enough for me! She’s not complaining about him or asking for advice.
I don’t understand your need to cast doubt, and suspicion over a happy relationship. It appears, as I reread the posts, that it’s because your real issue is her harsh attitude about porn which you believe is not grounded in reality. And that to you, a woman who “thinks” she has found a man who doesn’t watch it, is fooling herself because the percentages just don’t support it. Fine, whatev. I’m glad that she has a relationship that’s happy, functioning, and working well.
Give me some more stats and you can have the last word
Helen 141
Karl, what are the four traits?
Karl R 142
Helen asked: (#141)
“Karl, what are the four traits?”
Effort. Trying to make the other person happy.
Knowledge. For example, learning where the clitoris is, and that clitoral stimulation is the most common cause of female orgasms.
Learning from experience. Experience isn’t enough. You have to pay attention to what you did and whether is had the desired affect.
Creativity. Trying something new or different. 90% of the time it’s less effective than what you already know. It’s the other 10% that can pay off.
Gem said: (#140)
“I don’t understand your need to cast doubt, and suspicion over a happy relationship. It appears, as I reread the posts, that it’s because your real issue is her harsh attitude about porn which you believe is not grounded in reality.”
You pretty much nailed it. I was showing that the concept was unreliable. Her boyfriend is just the example she started using, so I did too. He was convenient.
Part of it even went beyond porn and unrealistic expectations. The debate was a great opportunity to tie in to a number of other points worth making.
Casting doubt over her relationship? Unlikely. He is, by her own statements, a great guy. If he watches porn regularly and lied to her about it, he’s still a great guy.
Joe 143
Bettina: is there a reason you like to use asterisks?
Bettina 144
Joe@143: At work. Zero tolerance for p*rn at the day gig. Ha! Won’t go into the particulars on here.
Nicole@134: Yes, I think we agree on a lot of what you said, though I wouldn’t describe the men in the countries I listed earlier as s*xually repressed. Some of these cultures leave quite a great deal of room for erot*cism in private. And I did mention the freak-out phenomenon when adult materials are introduced to places that haven’t had them before–both the men and the women can go through it. To correct you, though: I don’t think that p*rn and s*x are bad, so no need to put words in my mouth. Many folks from many different cultures have spoken quite frankly to me about it precisely because I am not judgmental about it (other than finding it aesthetically unappealing), unless the images are really abusive. Some of you are reading unspoken things into my choice not to have it around or to be with a guy who uses it.
Helen@138: These are criteria on my list, which is how the segue into this topic happened. But for the record–I never lead with my list. I’ve never talked about anything remotely resembling a “list” or any dealbreaker criteria when I started seeing someone. I mean, duh. People reveal themselves. Another item: I wouldn’t be with a smoker (of anything), either. That’s higher on my dealbreaker list than adult entertainment, actually. Lucky for me, I’m with someone who doesn’t use either. And neither did my last long-term boyfriend. He was from India–also someone I’ve known for many, many years–he was absolutely outraged at the suggestion that “all men” find it acceptable or “use” it and had some very pointed words to say about Westerners on the topic! He was actually the one who showed me that refusing to have it around was actually a realistic and perfectly acceptable standard in a relationship. This standard doesn’t stem from a harsh attitude at all. Here’s how it went: I was open to it, I didn’t like it, found that I didn’t like the guys who did, and learned to set a standard for myself. I urge everyone to try this exploratory journey. Try giving it up for awhile and focusing on what makes your woman tick. You might be pleasantly surprised!
Karl@136: I’ve read the studies on p*rn. (Yawn!) And no matter what your google search tells you, there are hardly any studies on female desire. But when I say “studies,” I mean, you know, legitimate studies that use the scientific method and are submitted to peer reviewed scientific journals. Not a panhandler’s opinion.
PS: I also think that bodice-rippers are ridiculous and don’t read them. I did get a little thrill out of reading a couple of them when I was 14, though.
Bettina 145
Karl@139: One more thing. I got the girl parts. I don’t need any stats to tell me what works/ doesn’t work for me in the bedroom or what the correlates are. My own experience has been much more informative! :)
Christie Hartman 146
I don’t know how you guys got onto this porn detour, but I will say one thing, Karl: I know a lot of men who don’t look at porn. They don’t watch the movies, the don’t watch it online, they don’t go to strip clubs, they don’t have Playboy. This doesn’t mean they have NEVER looked at porn, or didn’t go to a club when a friend had a bachelor party, but it isn’t something they do normally. One guy found it silly. Another said he hated the idea of paying to NOT get some. Another said strip clubs made him uncomfortable. There are a lot of men like this.
Nicole 147
@Bettina,
It wasn’t my intention to put words in your mouth. I just noticed that you didn’t type porn or sex without the (*) so what at first seemed like a glitch with your keyboard seemed deliberate, and I found it curious since I associate the use of symbols as a way to avoid typing curse words. That’s all.
Karl R 148
Bettina said: (#144)
“there are hardly any studies on female desire. But when I say ‘studies,’ I mean, you know, legitimate studies that use the scientific method and are submitted to peer reviewed scientific journals. Not a panhandler’s opinion”
I love how you criticize my sources before you bother to read them.
The link I provided about female orgasms contained information from a sex therapist (PhD), a sexologist (PhD) and a medical encyclopedia.
And you’re convinced that none of the information from those three sources was peer-reviewed or obtained through the scientific method.
Christine Hartman said: (#148)
“This doesn’t mean they have NEVER looked at porn, or didn’t go to a club when a friend had a bachelor party, but it isn’t something they do normally.”
If you look back at the original posts (#119 & #120), the discussion started with (and has largely revolved around) finding men who don’t watch porn at all.
Someone who only watches occasionally, that’s much easier to find.
Christine Hartman said: (#146)
“Another said he hated the idea of paying to NOT get some.”
I need to remember this line.
I haven’t paid for porn since the mid-90s (when I bought one lap dance for the bachelor and one for the most uptight groomsman, just to see the expression on his face).
I don’t believe in paying money to not have sex. I do believe that porn is available for free on the internet.
Christine Hartman said: (#146)
“Another said strip clubs made him uncomfortable.”
I think I’ve been in strip clubs twice in my life. I lived next to a strip club for three years and never went in that one. (I was a little surprised at the number of people who asked me what it was like inside … especially since most of the people asking were members of my church.)
Christine Hartman said: (#146)
“One guy found it silly.”
Yep. Sex is pretty damn funny too.
Christine Hartman said: (#146)
“I know a lot of men who don’t look at porn.”
I don’t believe in paying for porn.
I think porn is pretty silly.
I’ve only been to strip clubs twice in my life (for a bachelor party & a farewell party).
Does that mean I don’t look at porn either?
Christie Hartman 149
Karl (148):
“I don’t believe in paying for porn.
I think porn is pretty silly.
I’ve only been to strip clubs twice in my life (for a bachelor party & a farewell party).
Does that mean I don’t look at porn either?”
If you aren’t busy looking at the free stuff, then yes, in my book that qualifies as not looking at porn.
Bettina 150
Karl@148: No, I don’t read the stuff you cite because I have in the past and found it a waste of my time. No offense, but I work in a quantitive field and the stuff you post would not pass muster when scrutinized by academic peers. Sorry. Just my opinion.
And by “desire” I mean what turns women on. True, though, by “satisfaction” I do mean orgasms, which have been studied somewhat. But I will repeat, paraphrased: We need much, much more study of female desire and satisfaction to balance out the veritable onslaught of info (both good and bad) that we have on the male side of the equation. Don’t you all want to know?
Also, in #119 I never used the phrase “at all,” so not sure why you’re saying that I said that. I think you introduced that idea, in your discussion about studies. There are also men who watched once, didn’t like it, and don’t even watch occasionally, as Christie points out.
It’s curious that you don’t use it yourself and yet seem hell bent on convincing me that my boyfriend does. And also hellbent on telling me that I won’t find a guy unless I accept that every guy uses it. Except you, of course. And even though I have a guy. Very curious.
Jadafisk 151
149. I think he’s saying that he does look at the free stuff. An entire generation of adults have grown up with the idea that you don’t pay for music or porn, they’re already covered in the price of an Internet connection. Also, men who find porn stars overwrought and/or the mainstream porn industry demeaning to women often look at sex videos made by everyday exhibitionists and posted online, which is still porn.
Karl R 152
Bettina said: (#150)
“It’s curious that you don’t use it yourself”
I have used porn. I have used it regularly in the past.
Let me try an analogy to explain to you (and Christine) why I find the statements of “proof” you offer to be so funny.
Up to 80% of women have faked orgasms at least once in their lives. Women find it hilarious when most men insist that no woman has ever faked an orgasm with them. Why are the men sure? Because they would know if it were to happen. Why do the women find this funny? Because no man has ever figured it out when they faked an orgasm.
So the when the men indignantly insist that no woman has ever faked an orgasm with them, they are simply restating what the women have already seen with their own eyes: the men are unable to discern a real orgasm from a fake one.
You (and Christine) have offered numerous statements as “proof” that these men didn’t watch porn. They are similar to (or identical to) true statements that I have made to downplay my own porn use to women who disapproved.
You (and Christine) are utterly convinced that these men don’t watch porn. In saying that, you are telling me what I already know: when women hear these statements they assume the man watches little or no porn.
I just saw an article (which cited a peer-reviewed journal) which stated that secretive porn viewing damaging to a relationship, while watching porn with your partner was beneficial (presumably when both partners wanted to watch porn).
I’m not recommending that you start watching porn with your boyfriend. But I am suggesting that forcing your boyfriend into a position where he has to lie about his porn viewing (or lose you) is not ultimately beneficial to your relationship.
Bettina said: (#150)
“I work in a quantitive field and the stuff you post would not pass muster when scrutinized by academic peers.”
Bettina said: (#124)
“The researchers you mention should have gone outside the US.”
If you’re in such a quantitative field, and you understand more about studies than researchers at universities, then why did you suggest that the researchers go outside the U.S. (actually Canada) to find research subjects who hadn’t watched porn? Wasn’t it blatantly obvious to you why that would invalidate their research?
To answer the question you asked in #124, if you’re doing a comparison about the effects of porn, you can’t take people who use it regularly (from Canada) and compare them to people who have never been exposed to it (from Saudi Arabia) and run a valid comparison. Because you’ll never be able to determine which differences are caused by culture, which are caused by religion, and which are caused by viewing porn.
You convinced me in post #124 that you knew nothing about doing a proper research study. It’s a little late to start telling us that you know more than the people who did the studies.
Nice try though.
Helen 153
Honestly, I think this is one of these “Don’t ask, don’t tell” situations. I don’t believe that it damages a relationship to keep a few subjects that way. I am certain my husband has viewed porn, and I simply don’t care, because I have too in the past. But neither of us is going to drag that subject out into the open, because… who cares? There is enough drama in everyday life (with kids) that you may as well avoid creating more.
Karl R, thank you for listing the four traits above.
Unrelated to that, I hope you’ll forgive my seeming critical (Karl R) about your approach to discussions. I’ve always appreciated your logical viewpoints. But when you are talking about something very personal to another person, such as her beloved, of course you are going to put her on the defensive. And the more you keep doing that without taking the hint that someone’s ire is being raised, the more you anger them, even if it was not your intention to be personal. Because seriously, who cares? Is it so important to win a debate with an anonymous (or even known) person if it would end up hurting them or making them doubt someone else?
Helen 154
To add to my point above: Karl R, it’s actually your statistics that have proven faulty in several ways. Since you don’t seem to mind statistical discussions:
First: your argument about why studies can’t be conducted outside North America is invalid. You bring up culture and religion, which in statistics would be called “confounders” or “co-factors” if one were doing a predictive model, such as multiple regression. But this isn’t a predictive model. We are only interested in one very simple statistic: what proportion of men view porn. It is IRRELEVANT why they do or don’t; hence, confounders are meaningless in this case. Of course this is something that can be studied across cultures.
Second: your “proof” by analogy (of women faking orgasms) is not the kind of proof that would be acceptable at all even in pure mathematics, let alone statistics. One could start by asking whether this is even a relevant analogy.
Third: you cannot make ANY statistical statements about Bettina’s man based on what all or most men do. In a specific field of statistics, biostatistics (usually applied to epidemiology), researchers are careful to only make inferences about whole populations, not about individuals within a population. Predictive models are only developed for and applied to populations. They do not attempt to describe how an individual will respond using the model (e.g., risk factors of cardiovascular disease or colon cancer), given the large uncertainty and variability around each point. And that’s for a well-established predictive model. This example of porn-viewing is just a summary statistic! There is such a huge amount of uncertainty and variability (let’s not even start with how the sample size or population was drawn) that it’s useless to try to generalize this point estimate to what one man does or doesn’t do.
I think it’s valid if you make points about what most men do based on a summary statistic. But you’re overreaching if you try to say what Bettina’s man does, given that you don’t even know him.
Ruby 155
This debate about Bettina’s boyfriend is really starting to baffle me. Can’t we just assume that he is in the *small* (13% or whatever) minority of men who don’t watch porn and call it a day?
Bettina 156
Helen@153 and 154: Well put. People also get annoyed when someone presumes to know more about someone else’s life and the people/practices in it than they themselves do based on, well, nothing at all expect a preening need to be “right” at all costs–even to the point of spouting nonsense till people just start tuning out.
Great article in FT yesterday about statistics and their use:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/dfe55458-ccb6-11e0-b923-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1VyFtea1J
Bettina 157
Karl@152: Not just questioning your use of statistics but also your understanding of grammar. In no post did I say that you HAVE NOT used it or NEVER used it (both past tense) because you have clearly stated otherwise. I said that you ARE NOT (present tense) using it. Here is the string of statements.
I said: Also, in #119 I never used the phrase “at all,” so not sure why you’re saying that I said that. I think you introduced that idea, in your discussion about studies. There are also men who watched once, didn’t like it, and don’t even watch occasionally, as Christie points out. It’s curious that you don’t use it yourself and yet seem hell bent on convincing me that my boyfriend does.
This I took from your own post: Since it’s been more than a year since I last watched porn (unlike 87% of men), I could honestly claim that that I can “take it or leave it”. I could also claim that I don’t watch porn regularly (which is completely accurate for the last two years, even though I watched it regularly beforehand).
Karl R 158
Helen said: (#154)
“your argument about why studies can’t be conducted outside North America is invalid. [...] We are only interested in one very simple statistic: what proportion of men view porn.”
My arguement was why the researchers weren’t interested in a study conducted outside North America.
If you’re talking about why we aren’t interested in the proportion of men who watch porn outside North America it’s a different (but even more valid reason). Are you going shopping for a husband in China or Saudi Arabia? If not, how is that statistic remotely valid?
For most people, the proportion of porn viewers in Sacramento is irrelevant if they live in San Diego. Most of us look for a spouse in the near vicinity.
Helen said: (#154)
“your ‘proof’ by analogy (of women faking orgasms) is not the kind of proof that would be acceptable at all even in pure mathematics,”
In pure mathematics, we have to assume the existence of the number one.
Rigorous pure mathematical proofs might prove something (in the most literal sense of “prove”) but it’s not going to provide information that’s remotely useful to anyone reading it.
It’s an analogy. Given that the number of men who watch porn exceeds the number of women who fake orgasms, I’d say it’s a fair comparison.
Or are you saying that it’s not relevant because you would know if a man was downplaying his porn usage?
Helen said: (#154)
“it’s useless to try to generalize this point estimate to what one man does or doesn’t do.”
I don’t know (nor do I care) what one man does.
But if my fiancée had shown Bettina’s intolerance to porn, she wouldn’t know that I watched it. (I was only willing to discuss it because my fiancée clearly didn’t care whether I had watched it.)
If your boss says he’ll fire any employee who has used drugs, how many do you think will ‘fess up?
I don’t know what Bettina’s boyfriend does. But (going back to #119) if she finds it “offensive/repugnant” if he looks at “certain kinds of magazines”, then she doesn’t know either. Statistics will be a lot more informative than the words coming out of his mouth. It’s in his best interest to tell her what she wants to hear.
At this point, he’s committed to telling the same story that he told her the first time, regardless of whether it’s the truth.
People lie. If you want to get the truth out of people, don’t make them pay a high price for telling it.
Bettina said: (#157)
“Not just questioning your use of statistics but also your understanding of grammar. [...] I said that you ARE NOT (present tense) using it.”
Is that your standard of measurement?
I’m at the office. Of course I’m not using it.
The last time my fiancée was out of town, I was working 12 hours per day. By the time I got home from work, I just wanted to sleep. The previous time she was out of town, I was working 9 hours per day. I watched porn a couple times.
The next time she’s out of town … that depends on my work schedule.
If you want a man who prefers sex to porn, that’s easy to find. If you want a man who doesn’t watch porn when he’s exhausted, that’s easy to find. If you want a man who doesn’t watch porn when he’s bored and horny … you may have difficulty.
It has nothing to do with grammar. If I’m going to claim that “I don’t watch porn,” I mean in general, not just for this week.
Gem 159
Karl, #158
But if my fiancée had shown Bettina’s intolerance to porn, she wouldn’t know that I watched it. (I was only willing to discuss it because my fiancée clearly didn’t care whether I had watched it.)
It’s in his best interest to tell her what she wants to hear.
Does your fiancee’ know your weak threshold for lying? Does she know that the only way you’re going to tell the truth is if you KNOW she’ll agree with you?
People lie. If you want to get the truth out of people, don’t make them pay a high price for telling it.
When I’m dating/getting to know someone, I don’t lie about things that I KNOW could be deal breakers or even potential cracks. The whole point is to find someone who is right for us. I would not misrepresent myself to make myself appear to be something I’m not but knew the guy wanted.
If you had lied to your finacee’ about porn or anything else, you’d have to keep lying for the entirety of your relationship. What happens when you get caught? This is why I don’t do it, Karl, and many other people don’t either. Some people - maybe it comes with age, integrity, confidence, whatever - tell it like it is because they are who they are and like who they are, and it’s not rewarding to lie or hide.
Maybe instead of convincing Bettina why the stats support that her man is a secret porn watcher, you should be more introspective about your own compulsion to lie when you’re seeking acceptance.
Joe 160
What makes you think Karl lied to his fiancee? If she doesn’t ask about the matter of porn, and he doesn’t bring it up, that’s not lying. If she mentions it in passing but does not ask Karl if he’s ever watched it, that’s not lying.
Bettina 161
karl@158L: Re your comment: “But (going back to #119) if she finds it “offensive/repugnant” if he looks at “certain kinds of magazines”, then she doesn’t know either. Statistics will be a lot more informative than the words coming out of his mouth. It’s in his best interest to tell her what she wants to hear.”
I never cited what I find offensive/repugant”–you’re putting words in my mouth and twisting my comments around in a very lame, transparent way to get out of the illogical position you have boxed yourself into.
Joe@160: We all assume now that Karl lies because he is so insistent that all guys do (except for the 13% that he is sometimes in, sometimes not). Further, he accuses people of being “intolerant” as a way to justify deceptive behavior. In other words, he thinks lying is OK if you’re with an intolerant person. No explanation for why you’d want to be with someone who finds your behavior so intolerable that you have to lie about it.
But this statement of Karl’s is clearly, so obviosly true: “I don’t know what Bettina’s boyfriend does.”
A fitting conclusion to 161 posts.
Gabe Asher 162
@84 Your last paragraph was spot on! Guilty as charged here. Never noticed before. A date might say “oh, our waitress is cute, don’t you think” I may reply “mildy, but the sharpie eyebrows are creeping me out…(after a surprised look by my date I reply)…..”Im just kidding, relax”. But the truth is sharpie brows are a NO-NO for me. Would never even consider dating a girl with those.
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@90 Good post Sacha. As for the number question. As a man, we can’t win either. If you have a high number you look like an AIDS infected skeev. If it’s low, you look undesireable. Yes a (perceived) low number for a woman is important to me. I don’t want to think my gf or wife has been used as a cum receptacle. It’s bad enough she wasn’t a virgin, but I accept how times evolve, and people don’t have one partner typically. But to think she had like 50 meat sticks in her? Not a good program..
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I’ve also found a womans favorite number to claim is 5! (laughable for most, but I appreciate the effort). I never ask if I am even mildly interested in the girl. If I’m not interested in her, and it comes up, I have asked.
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Random thought. I feel like both men and women think that they are in the league of the highest value person they dated in the past. That they can at least repeat that, if not do better. You must take that person as the highest, then take the lowest. Your league is somewhere in between the two. Water finds it’s own level. Most people shoot high then slowly lower their standards until they find their league. I feel like many people here on this blog have yet to capitulate. They are the hold-outs.
sephornet 163
Bettina @ 161: “…why [anyone would] want to be with someone who finds your behavior so intolerable that you have to lie about it”
I have often wondered this. If a person cannot be accepted as they are, why stay in the relationship?
Helen 164
Karl R, where are you? I miss your logical comments, even when we’ve disagreed.
Went back and read through this entire thread… wow. Very entertaining. Not too much of it was related to the original point, however, which is of making sure the checklist is not too long.
I wonder if we couldn’t simplify things and simply state that what really matters is the quality of the heart of the person you’re with – how s/he treats you, AND how s/he treats other people. I’ve always found this to be the best barometer of the quality of a person’s heart, and how likely you are to feel happy with the person, whether s/he’s a lover, friend, or colleague. This is true of both the men and the women I interact with. If they treat you nicely at first but you see that they are mean to others (waiters, other colleagues, strangers), you can bet that they will turn out to be mean to you as well. If they are courteous and gentle to everyone, they are a prize.
The other stuff just doesn’t matter, gals (and guys). The looks, the travel, the clothes, the exotic cooking – NONE of it matters. None. Care about yourself enough to care about how you are being treated, and value that first and foremost.