Letters From Men Who Go to Strip Clubs
Journalist Susannah Breslin has started a compelling site called Letters From Men Who Go to Strip Clubs.
Yes, that’s all it is.
Here’s what a few big media outlets have to say about it: Salon: “A new blog gives voice to guys who empty their pockets just to see naked flesh, and reveals a lot about male desire.” Newsweek: “Gives men a chance to write anonymously about the complicated reasons they buy sex.” TIME.com: “[A]n online collection of purportedly real letters from sex workers and their customers.”
I’m sharing it with you because, as I see it, my job is help you understand how men think. Of course, every time I tell you how men think, somebody writes back and tells me that I’m wrong. I’ve always found it interesting – the concept of shooting the messenger – but as far as I can tell, I get shot mostly because a) you don’t want to believe that I’m telling the truth or b) you are an exception to the rule, which, of course, doesn’t negate the rule. I can say that it generally gets colder in the winter, and the fact that it may be 79 degrees in LA one day doesn’t mean that it doesn’t get colder in the winter.
In any case, Letters From Strip Clubs is a really entertaining read, right from the horse’s mouth, about why men go to strip clubs. I didn’t find any of it particularly surprising, because I’m, you know, a man. But it’s definitely a worthwhile read.
What resonates most to me is that all of the letters seems a little sad, which describes the state of a lot of men who are just looking for some sort of female connection. These men aren’t to be scorned. Pitied, maybe. But mostly, I hope you understand their loneliness and understand why I spend a lot of time trying to get you to give men a break. You don’t have to like strip clubs, but you can’t deny that their prevalence fills a temporary need for millions of men – not all of whom are scornful perverts, I assure you.
Your thoughts are appreciated, as always.
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
76 Comments »Filed Under Sex
Hmmmmm 1
Interesting reading, Evan. Judging only by those who’s letters I read, they’re a sad bunch. Too bad this is the only way they’ve figured out to fulfill their needs. There are certainly better options. I thought this said a lot about one segment of those men…
“Everyone’s sad. Especially men at strip clubs. The patrons know it. The strippers know it. The guy out on the highway who couldn’t afford the cover charge knows it.”
ValleyForgeLady 2
This is so very sad! What is the take away from this? While I was reading this…. I received an email from a guy on POF who clearly stated that he wants a Friend with Benefits beause he essentiallly has given up on love!
What is a decent, loving women supposed to do with this scenario? I know this is very prevalent. The availability of porn has not helped.
How much darkness exists in the souls of the men I meet on line? This stuff has me totally discouraged. Where is the hope of love from a decent man?
With all the moral depravity of men in the news and the deer in the headllight looks of their wives….What chance do I have of finding a decent man?
Alicia 3
It seems that most men that go to strip clubs (of the ones that I know) are young (19-30) with no girlfriend or serious relationship. Or you get ones like the letter about the gay man (which was a good read).
Then there are ones like on the Letters site that can get love but choose to go outside their relationship. I firmly believe that if you can’t talk to your partner about problems or fetishes (among other things), your relationship isn’t all that solid. Your happiness should matter to the person you’re with. Selectively being honest with your spouse or significant other is, in my mind, still lying. We’ve all heard that it is bad to base a relationship on sex or on dishonesty, so I find it hard to pity anyone (male or female) that goes outside their means. If your SO is fine with it though, more power to you.
Interesting read. Thank you for posting the article. I shared it (and my response) with both males and females, and we’ve all enjoyed debating on it.
devymetal 4
“So long as everyone involved simply enjoys the game, all is well; but the moment someone needs more than the game, they absolutely cannot have it, and so they stand there, open and raw and unable to share. Most of the other dudes are too engaged to notice, but the detached strippers and the detached gay man notice.”
– The “I Am Gay” entry.
I think the take-away here is that perceptive people notice the sometimes tragic or desperate undertones in the interactions that occur between strippers and clients. It’s impossible to have an informed conversation about the experiences of men who frequent strip clubs without mentioning the sometimes brutal reality that is life as a stripper. The key difference here is that the men get to go home at the end of the night and shake it off, the women… not so much.
I’ve known a lot (hundreds) of strippers, and if you knew how poorly they were treated by the management, how little any of them actually like the job, how untrue the myth of stripper-as-empowered-woman (who somehow loves to be endlessly propositioned for paid sex and is miraculously undamaged by it etc.– another reality of being a stripper) is, you probably wouldn’t want your boyfriend/husband to go to strip clubs for entirely different reasons. There are exception, but painfully few– most strippers hate the job, are desperate for money and feel incapable of finding a better source of income.
Many of these young girls (especially in Manhattan) are from Russia, the Caribbean or Brazil and can’t work legally in the U.S. So they feel trapped, like any other population of undocumented workers, and are therefore more vulnerable to making bad decisions out of fear of deportation. Also, almost all strippers (I don’t have the statistics, but extensive personal experiences has taught me this) have one or more of the following issues: 1.) Drug problems, often including past arrest histories which haunt them forever, employment-wise 2.) Are single mothers 3.) Are trying to support family members either here, or just as frequently in another country, whom they hope to bring here 4.) Are sexual abuse survivors. These are facts. If you want to believe otherwise, well, a disproportionate amount of the very few outliers who have stripped long-term and didn’t fit these statistical norms have written books and blogs and profited from it. In fact, I never met a well-adjusted student with better options who didn’t quit after a few shifts. NEVER.
In short: I just can’t stand the way modern media and society in general portray strip clubs as bastions of male fantasy fulfillment wherein nobody really gets hurt but perhaps the long-suffering girlfriend or wife at home. That isn’t true, and has never been true.
StrengthThruSuffering 5
I agree with devymetal. It is nearly impossible to talk to most men about this and get a 100% honest answer about his motives. He will either not talk or leave out bits and pieces to protect himself from the pain.
Another point that devy made was about characteristics of strippers. That reminds me of a TV show I watched once. It had the line “Stripper stories always come in threes; 1) single mother, 2) working through college, and 3) drug addict.” It’s humorous to me that someone else knows that too.
One thing that has always puzzled me is men who meet and ultimately date strippers, like the man who wrote about it. I thought many men were too jealous/competitive to allow strange men touch their womens’ erogenous zones.
The point is that it is terribly sad that men feel the need to pay for companionship, when just going to a bar would be easier (and cheaper). Strip clubs are really a no-win situation for the stripper, patron, and family of the patron. Porn addictions seem to make strip clubs and paid companions more prevalent and that is miserably pathetic.
Quinn 6
@devymetal
I was a stripper for a couple years while I finished up my degree, so yes, ‘well-adjusted students’ do strip, and while their were certainly some women there with no other options, some were just like me- normal, intelligent women with a bit of a wild side.
I LOVED my job for the exact reasons many of these men were there. I got the chance to connect with many men on a pretty deep level. I got to make lots of sad strangers feel really special. I got to dance and be as all out sexy as I wanted.
It was not all sunshine and roses, some men were perverts or jerks, but the vast majority were good people who just wanted some attention from a beautiful woman. I learned some valuable lessons about what men want, and what a lot of men are most likely missing in their long-term relationships. Warmth, openness, eye-contact, someone to really listen, and the feeling that they are strong and in control, the ability to say “I want you” or “I want this” and have it delivered freely and sincerely. (and yes, I was genuine and sincere with those who were that way with me)
just wanted to put another perspective out there…
AnnieC 7
Agree with Devymetal also. The illusion that most strippers are doing it because they really want to is really disturbing. What some of these men are saying is also disturbing.
Some of it however, shows how lonely they are. I don’t understand how going to a strip bar, or a prostitute takes that away but it is sad to see that loneliness. I wonder why that happens? What about friends, family etc?
Trenia 8
One word comes to mind: selfish. It’s one thing to go to strip clubs and use sex workers to fulfill whatever desire you have when you’re single, but it’s quite another issue entirely when you’re in a committed relationship with someone and your finances and sexual health are tied to someone else. Not to mention how so many of these women (and girls) are often forced into this kind of work, and the numbers are rising. These are grown men, they can do whatever they want, but there is a ripple effect to the choices that they make.
In terms of sexual exploration, I bet many of the wives and girlfriends of these men would be willing to sexually explore with them, but because so many men still have this Madonna/whore complex when it comes to women, it makes sexual exploration very difficult. Meaning, if a woman performs a sexual act that a man associates with what he’s experienced in a strip club or with a sex worker, he may think less of the woman in his life. I’ve heard some men say “if she’s that nasty with me, I can only imagine where she learned it”, or something to that effect.
I read some of the letters, and I’m always fascinated by the number of men who talk about that one girl who rejected them publicly in the 7th grade and they never got over it, so that became their excuse for all of their bad behavior with women. But if a woman is still nursing a broken heart after being dumped a few weeks before her wedding, she’s castigated because she hasn’t “gotten over it” yet.
Herein lies another problem between men and women, men want to be understood, explore more sexually but have no patience for a woman who may feel a little needy and anxious because she’s not married by a certain age.
@Quinn #6, I’m glad that your experience was positive as a stripper. But my guess is if you were doing it as a college student, the club you were in probably was a little bit more upscale than most (correct me if I’m wrong). I used to work with strippers, sex workers and sex trafficked girls, and trust me, there was nothing fun or pleasingly sexual about what I saw. What i experienced through my work was sheer horror, not only at how the women and girls were treated but by the supposedly “good men” who stood by, watched and did nothing.
Dan 9
When treating other people, true character is about treating people with respect. We all know what that is like when we are on the receiving end in dating and relationships.
This applies also to people based on what they do to earn money. Sadly, devymetal’s comments @4 reveal a harsh reality of stripper’s lives. Still, strippers are people who deserve respect, particularly from the men who go to a strip club. But they should also deserve a nonjudgmental attitude from the rest of us. We don’t know about the life of any individual stripper. Yet, I feel a tone of scorn or disgust in some of these replies from the women here. Is this because this is a gut emotional reaction? I believe that at a primeval level, women are threatened by other women who may be sexual competition. I’m just stating a possibility that may be hard to accept. Kudos to EMK for putting this post out there to generate this reaction.
I also want to address the negative views that women make about men who go to strip clubs. I see words here like “sad bunch.” I don’t see how that is any more sad than an unloved man or woman who is lonely and seeking love. In this regard, this sad bunch could be any of us.
I didn’t read a lot of the letters on that blog. The first one I read, “I am very much an introvert” (Nov 30, 2011) was very sensitive and touching for me. It was from a shy guy who was hurt when, as a 13 year old, his crush was mean to him. Then he was hurt many times after that through high school. My heart goes out to him. In dating, males have to make the first move. I don’t think females at that age know how much hurt they can inflict on a sensitive boy who makes such a gesture for the first time. People are sensitive, and scars last a long time. This is one of those key differences between men and women that women will never understand.
So he goes to a strip club as a college student as a way to meet women who at least will talk to him, deymetal4′s comments aside. I don’t see anything wrong with that. That letter very much reflects my own early life of shyness, rejection, hurt and loneliness. Some women think it is sad and pathetic that a high school or college guy can’t at least talk to other female peers. The reality in our early 20′s is that in a bar or dance club and even in a social group, shy guys are edged out. In their daily lives, they may have one female friend, likely just as shy and geeky as them. That is hardly anything near having enough social experience with the opposite sex.
AnnieC@7: I wonder why that happens? What about friends, family etc?
The vast majority of men don’t share their deep feelings with their friends and even family the way women do. That is another key difference between men and women.
Like that man, I also went to a strip club a few times on my own while I was in college, because I had no other way of talking to women, as I thought that would help. I didn’t know anything about devymetal4′s points at that age. I bought a few beers and just watched the stage show, because I was too shy to strike up a one-on-one conversation or ask for a table dance. I haven’t gone back since then. This was my reality and I think I am decent, caring and thoughtful guy.
Teresa 10
qunn
you make it sound all warm and fuzzy the bottom line however is that your interactions with these men were a financial transactions pure and simple. When human interaction is reduced to that level it very sad to me.
Sayanta 11
Very interesting article EMK – thanks for sharing. What’s interesting is how some female posters are not acknowledging the pain that these men have gone through- choosing to judge instead. (not that ive never judged myself but it’s obviously easier to call out other people for doing thing than yourself).
It’s a refusal to acknowledge or listen to the other side of things– the kind of attitude that colors your interaxn w/the opposite sex.
I’m really glad, again, that you posted this. It’s just one article, but it’s broadened my view a bit.
Teri 12
The strip clubs aren’t half the problem.
Any idea how many men MARRIED men… REALLY use Escort services and Asian massage parlors?
Do a study on that one. you’ll really be choked up. More men use these outlets then they do strip clubs.
AQ 13
what a mess
Vicki 14
I’m glad that shy men go to strip clubs. I don’t hang out in strip clubs, so I’m guaranteed never to meet them.
I’m glad they have an outlet, even if it’s a sad one. At least it keeps them out of my path.
I’m glad I meet men through volunteer work and through my friends. There’s a 99.9% chance I will never meet a guy like the ones who go to strip clubs – because they’re too awkward to talk to women in normal day to day life. They could only ever meet me in normal day to day life and are (fortunately) too shy to speak to me.
I don’t hate shy men, I just prefer dating socially well-adjusted, people-person types who are able to at least hold up their half of the dinner conversation.
I’m an introvert too, but in my experience, introverted men are practically pre-verbal. As a woman, I may be shy, but I can still hold a conversation with a stranger (even if it takes me a bit longer to warm up to them).
I had dinner once with an engineer who barely participated in the conversation. I would ask him questions about his work, hobbies, etc. I swear to you, his answers were all less than 5 syllables. I could NOT get a conversation moving with him, and that’s really a big deal-breaker for me.
He might have been a very nice guy, who made loads more money than I’ll ever make, but I am looking for a companionate relationship, not just a robot who takes out the trash and pays the electric bill.
For shy men reading this, please don’t feel slighted. If you have trouble talking to women at work, in bars, etc, then join a book club, volunteer for an animal shelter or sign up for a yoga class. You’re almost guaranteed to be the ONLY guy in the place, and after a few meetings/dog walks/classes, you’ll have had at least a few decent conversations. The regular contact with the same group of women will at least give you time to warm up to asking one of them out for a cup of coffee.
lawyerette 15
What was interesting to me is how many of the men said they go for the conversation – given the stereotype that men don’t want to talk to the women in their lives. Hmm. My takeaway is to offer a non-judgmental ear to the men I date, because it seems that men appreciate that.
still looking 16
When I was young, strip clubs were exciting. Now they are downright boring and sad.
While some of the women fly into town on a weekend to make more money than they make M-F, and some of the guys are out with a bunch of friends for a bachelor party, the day to day workers and attendees are downright sad.
When I was younger I’d go with a friend on a Sat night and watch some poor guy buy table dance after table dance until a good percentage of his weekly paycheck was gone. Once the money was gone, so were the girls.
The women seemed to fall into two categories == sad and sadder.
Needless to say, I don’t hang out at strip clubs any longer.
Kathy 17
How edited are the letters on that blog? I only ask because they all seem so well-crafted… as though they were all written by journalists rather than by regular run-of-the-mill guys who go to strip clubs. Does Ms Breslin heavily edit/ re-write the submissions?
In any case, I think the situation is sad. No. I’m not saying that the men who are going to strip clubs are sad. But I think it’s unfortunate that there are so many lonely women (like me) looking for a kind man who they can snuggle with and talk to and so many lonely men (like many of these letter writers) who long for female companionship and attention… and yet, we somehow cannot connect with each other.
I do wonder if I’m being expected to “live up to” the unattainable example set by strippers. They are never allowed to get fat, be grumpy, look tired, act as though their client doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Do men who go to strip clubs start to imagine that this is the way that women should behave? Tough to know…
Erin 18
I am really trying to feel some compassion for these men that wrote the letters. And some of them I do. The 24 year old man that’s lonely and just wants someone to talk to, I feel compassion for him. But most of the men centered around, not wanting female companionship, so much as wanting hot young female companionship. There were men who wrote letters who were over the age of 35, married, talking about the things these strippers gave them that they clearly don’t/can’t/maybe didn’t even want? to get from their wives. Is that their wives fault? That she can’t be a 20 year old stripper? It’s clearly the young stripper that makes them feel good. It’s the young stripper they are seeking to meet their needs. It’s the young stripper with the pretty body they want over their own partners who inevitably aren’t as beautiful as their own partners. I don’t really get the impression that these me are seeking companionship so much as young companionship. As one man said:
“Last year I got together with 10 high school friends. We are all 42 years old. Most with degrees and married. 2 are “strip club guys”. If there is an opportunity, they are dying to go; its in their dna. The rest of us are “sure, why not” types – strippers are sexier than the women we are usually with. In a group, its entertaining and fun and different and erotic. If only 2 guys go, it breaks up the monotony and is erotic. If you go alone, more likely that you have some type of problem.”
Strippers are sexier then the woman they are usually with. Obviously their heir wives and partners/girlfriends. What are we suppose to learn from that? Because in that message, I just feel beat down then as a woman when it comes to men lately. Men want 18 year old girls, pretty perfect bodies and even if they marry you, the are going to seek that out through strip clubs and porn.
These men might be lonely but some of them are choosing to be lonely. They rather pay young hot girls for an hour of fake attention then learn what it takes to relate to women outside of a fantasy situation. That seems to be the real problem. The desire to manifest women into a fantasy and preferring using that to their advantage then doing the hard work it takes to work with real women in the real world. And that makes *me* as a woman feel more alone then ever.
But the difference is that there is no place that I as a woman can go to get the same fake relief with men that men are apparently getting through strip clubs. I can’t complete with porn and strip clubs and the expectations about my own body and aging process that men hold up to women. I am most absolutely not as hot as any stripper. Men would not pay to see me dance. If men want strip clubs and porn, they got them. But I can’t feel vulnerable and soft hearted for them because their loneness seems to steam more from a superficial place then one born out of really wanting to know and relate to women. They don’t really want real women, real affection, real relationships. Alot of them talked about being happy with the what they knew was fake because the girl was hot enough.
One 61 year old man talks about how it’s “revenge” for all the young women he wishes he could have but can’t. Revenge because younger women don’t want to be with 61 year old men? What? He’s lonely only because he is 61 and wants 20 year olds. Another man talks about being married to a beautiful woman but it’s not enough for him. He needs release through other women with big fake boobs. What am I suppose to understand from this? I get that message everyday from the media. That I’m not pretty enough. That I am not young enough. That I am not really want men want in a world full of younger prettier women then myself. And that men rather pay prettier women for an hour of fake attention then work with me for a real relationship where real vulnerability and closeness would take time and where I am not nearly as hot as what they could get at some swank strip club.
And those letters seem more of the same. Yes, some of the men are lonely. But they also only want the hottest or youngest woman they can get and will pay for a hour of time with a young hot woman rather then take the time to relate to their own wives or real woman which is obviously much more difficult and who obviously aren’t nearly has sexy and beautiful. I feel for *some* of those men that clearly struggle with their relationships. But most of the letters seemed to be centered around men that had women in their lives yet still were seeking out things from women in strip clubs they clearly couldn’t or didn’t want to get from their own partners. I don’t understand how this is suppose to help in my relationships with men. It just leaves me feeling more resigned to the fact that I am never going to be the type of woman men apparently need or want. Which by the letters men wrote is perpetually young, hot and sexual. I’m just me. And I know that in today’s world with so many visual options for men, I’m not good enough. I try to do the best I can. I’m lonely too. But those guys wouldn’t care that I was.
Kim 19
I have often been told that I am emotionally a woman, but sexually a man. And I would agree, when it comes to sex I like variation, both in style and in person, in the conquest in itself, and the unbridled bliss of having little to no emotion connected to the act.
The downfall?
In relationships, I can never connect sex and love, and that’s to say I even know what love feels like. I am a swinger, and a bisexual. I go to parties and now that I’m in a relationship currently, I find it hard to enjoy sex with a man I love. I haven’t cheated on him, I am 100% faithful, but I yearn to have sex with other people (and he knows and allows this – as long as we swing as a couple). I love the challenge of trying to have sex with someone new, someone possibly out of my league. I love the game of seduction and the power it gives me when I get compliments on my talents.
AnnieC 20
@18 Erin.
You sound so sad, but don’t give up. Yes, some men will want that, and really haven’t you ever looked at a 20 year old male, with a great body and gone ooo he’s hot? We just don’t get aroused in the same way that men do in this regard usually.
I do agree with you though, that the “I want a young, hot, pretty thing beside me”, is purely about ego and validation. But really, so what? Would you even want to be with these types of men? Let them have their fantasy and they can spend their entire lives/paychecks on women who don’t want them.
I’ve heard those revenge comments too, and it just shows that 40+ years later, the man is still holding a grudge. Would you want to hold a grudge for THAT Long? What a waste of life to hold onto bitterness.
And yes, some of the men were sad, and wanted a woman to talk to. Those are the ones I can feel some empathy for.
Saint Stephen 21
@Kim
Don’t you think you are commenting in the wrong post?
Perhaps this should be the post you are looking for; http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/polyamory-intensifying-the-living-experience/#.Tt0LSfIprns
Erinlee 22
Vicki post #19 wrote: There’s a 99.9% chance I will never meet a guy like the ones who go to strip clubs – because they’re too awkward to talk to women in normal day to day life.
Do you really think this way? Is this some sort of self validation to make yourself feel like you are too good for any guy that would go to a strip club? I think this statement is completely irrelevant because you are lumping a lot of people into one lump sum, “too awkward to talk to women in normal day to day life”. You must be saying this to make yourself feel better.
Must it all be about people who are so sad or lonely? Can it not be viewed as another form of entertainment? There are issues with many of the ways we as humans entertain ourselves, not only this one. In no way am I condoning mistreatment of women, but any establishment I have been in, mistreatment was not apparent and the women were treated with respect by patrons of the establishment as well as other staff.
I must assume that the majority of the women commenting on this post with anger and bitterness, are jealous of the thought of their men possibly being entertained by a stripper. What world do you live in? Men are visual, they like looking and that’s not about to change anytime soon. Go ahead thinking that every man in a strip club is sad lonely and to be looked down upon. Just remember that last weekend or next, it could be YOUR husband/bf there for some fun with the guys. Plenty of sane, healthy, normal men in committed relationships attend strip clubs to unwind and have an entertaining evening. Would you like to work with the way a man thinks, or against it? Find some confidence in yourself to believe you are worth loving. If you have this, then when the right man comes along for you, it won’t matter so much if he enjoys the occasional trip to the strip club, because he’s loving and loyal to you every day of the year. Women cannot blame men/strip clubs for their own personal confidence issues. If you think you need to look as good as a stripper to attract a man, you have some serious work to do with yourself (emotionally and mentally)
mvlikesbikes 23
While I think the self-professed loneliness is kind of a cop-out (how many opportunities are they missing to genuinely interact with women they come across in their day to day lives, only those ones don’t match their physical ideals?), and it’s plain sad in the long run, because they’re just reinforcing for themselves that they’re not worthy of female contact unless they pay for it, I can muster up a little leniency for men in this area. I think their programming runs incredibly deep, firstly because men are far more visual than women when it comes to stimulation, and secondly because they’re bombarded with images of women as sex objects with little or no counterpoint to this perspective, so objectifying women comes to feel like the norm for them. (Heck, women regularly objectify other women; that’s why all the beauty mags are so profitable.)
I argued about this a lot with my ex-, and he told me that getting him to change his enjoyment of female nudity would be like asking him to change his accent – unnatural and extremely difficult. And he didn’t appreciate being made to feel demonized for something he believed was an unconscious response on his part. So he did manage to make me feel a little compassion for him there.
All that said, I’m not with him today, because I felt like his whole world was centered on image and appearances, and not a lot of substance. I think his inability to genuinely interact with people without putting on a “show”, his vanity, and his constant defense of strip clubs and Playboy/Maxim were all related to the side of him that lacked authenticity.
Anyway, just to get back to the original topic, I luckily married a guy who thinks strip clubs are boring and kind of gross, so there’s no debate to have in my household. I don’t think I would have ended up with someone for whom strip clubs are “good fun”. So I guess I do think they’re pretty distasteful and something I just wave off as something other people do. I don’t really care to launch an all-out crusade against them. In fact, when lap dances were banned in my area a few years ago, I did sign the petition to repeal the ban, thinking it was bit of an overreach. I wouldn’t put my foot down if DH were invited to a bachelor party for a friend or something, as I’d trust him to keep the whole thing in perspective.
As for the whole female empowerment thing, I think there there are those who get a real charge from exhibitionism (the absolute opposite of me; I don’t think I could ever strip even if I had the body simply because I’d hate all those eyes on me). And I think there are a tiny subset of strippers who are truly stronger and more confident from the experience, albeit a little more cynical. I have a happily married friend who did a lot of nude work while she got her Masters in Journalism at Columbia. I also remember going to an “erotic lit” reading one night, where the keynote was a former call girl who held a Phi Beta Kappa key. Obviously, those women weren’t particularly slowed down by their pasts. However, I feel those women are rarer than most would have you believe. In fact, the ones I’ve met who most loudly advertised how empowered they were as strippers/fetish workers turned out to be the most damaged of them all.
As for the presence of pornography in my house, I own some of my own well-hidden erotica (like the euphemism?), so I wouldn’t really have a leg to stand on if I wanted to keep DH from having his own. He just doesn’t own any because he says it’s not his thing. But I do think you would want to keep anything objectifying (especially porn) away from your children for as long as possible. I think it could really mess up the way they relate to others as they form friendships/dating lives/romances of their own.
At the end of the day, maybe the 61 year old guy – gross as he sounds – was the most honest:
“I’m old in years – 61 … and I like to think this is my revenge for all the beautiful women in the world whom I can’t approach, whom I can’t get, this idea that I can have some young beauty dance and smile at me any time I want.” (<— ewww! ewww! ewww!) LOL.
Ann 24
I’ve asked a couple of guys who go to strip joints if they’d ever marry a stripper. They were shocked that I’d even suggest such a thing. Of course, they wouldn’t. I told them that it was really puzzling as to why they wouldn’t. In one breath they’re saying how acceptable strip joints are, but somehow being a stripper is not an acceptable profession?
Hypocrisy is funny. There’s nothing wrong with creating demand for something, but there’s something wrong with providing the supply. Suckers!
Evan Marc Katz 25
@Ann – Sigh. Of course, men will frequent strip clubs and not want to marry strippers. Plenty of women would sleep with rock star or a sexy surfer or charming poet, and not think that those men are marriage material. Sexual desire is completely different from commitment. The second you get that, the second you’ll do better at understanding and connecting to men.
Nicole 26
So are we acting as though male strippers don’t exist and women don’t ever fantasize about sexy men with “perfect” bodies?
B/c I don’t know if it’s an age thing or not but you’d swear that women never went to strip clubs, looked at porn, or ever thought of anything but their one true Prince Charming.
I’ve been to a strip club, and some of my female friends were regulars at some clubs in the past, and those places were packed to the gills with women of ALL ages who were throwing money down like there was no tomorrow.
So stop the hypocrisy ladies. Sometimes it’s nice to look at stereotypically pretty/handsome people and it doesn’t make you some kind of a degenerate or sleaze or “cheater” if you do that.
If it’s not an addiction that is keeping you from functioning and you aren’t throwing your whole paycheck at a stripper or never come home, I really don’t care if men go. Looking at a naked lady/man online or in real life in that setting is to me the BEST way for people to live out fantasies. And I think that having a regular boys’ night or girls’ night out is more conducive to having a long term relationship than people want to admit.
It is not the same as cheating, and it does not mean that someone is predisposed to cheating. That is just so silly to me. I’ll never understand why people are so threatened by it.
Christina 27
Strip clubs are a double standard. Where is a woman supposed to go to get her jollies short of cheating on her spouse while he is out at the strip club? I think the need for intimacy and filling voids are just cop outs, as if women don’t have these same needs (probably more so). And Male strip clubs are a cop out as well. A male stripper is more hilarious than sexy. So if my partner is out getting a lap dance (one can only imaging what their spouse does in a strip club, i prefer never having to wonder) why is it not okay (socially acceptable) for the female in the relationship to seek out a similar arousal from a stranger?
All I know, is if my spouse were out at a strip club, I would love nothing more than to mingle with an attractive man.
AnnieC 28
@25 Evan.
Saying that women should “tolerate” that men are the way they are, and we will get along better when we accept it, is to basically say we should accept what we feel is unethical or immoral behaviour. Ann is right in recognizing this hypocracy.
We don’t have to accept that and if it means the only choice is to remain single, then that’s what some women will have to do.
Why evan, would any woman want to be with a man, who has completely seperated sexual desire, for intimacy with a particular women? People have a choice in how they will view and treat sex. The men that focus on women only for the pleasure the woman can give, invariably end up crappy lovers and bad partners. Women would do well to stay away from them imo.
Perhaps if these men accepted that women do not want to be treated purely as a means to sexual pleasure then they might actually do a lot better at connecting with and understanding women.
It works both ways.
Evan Marc Katz 29
Annie, Annie, Annie – If you want to be in a relationship with a man, you have to tolerate, accept and love him despite his flaws. If you don’t find that a man has flaws that are tolerable, then you break up with him. I’m pretty sure we’re in agreement on that. If you find that every man has flaws that are intolerable, then you’ll be alone forever. That’s your prerogative, too, but it also means that you’re probably extremely judgmental, since 100 million people in the US ARE able to marry someone else despite his/her flaws. As a dating coach, I find that many women break up with men who have tolerable flaws (5’8″, bad taste in clothing, average job) and stay with men who have intolerable flaws (verbally abusive, inherently selfish, never wants marriage). I ALWAYS tell women to dump the latter and consider the former. If you have another interpretation of what I wrote, you’re objectively wrong, so please stop suggesting that “Evan says women should date men who see women ONLY as sexual pleasure.” Never said that. A 3 minute dance with a stripper is only sexual pleasure. A WIFE is a lot more than that. Thankfully pretty much all men can distinguish between a lap dance and a life partner. You just don’t understand how that’s possible since YOU don’t see it that way. This is YOUR limitation, Annie, not men’s.
So if you falsely conclude that only “bad” men have been in a strip club, you’ll be passing up on a lot of good men (namely, every man I know). When I talk about good men who have gone to strip clubs, I’m not referring to guys who blow their paycheck in strip clubs, are regulars at the lunch buffet, and are on a first name basis with the dancers. I’m referring to guys who enjoy going to a bachelor party once a year or blowing off steam on a random guys’ night out. This is 100% normal. How can I say this? Because I’M normal. My girlfriend in 2003 dumped me because my FRIENDS went to a strip club in Vegas and she felt that if I was associated with such low life men, I must be one myself. She took me to her shrink for relationship counseling. After a half hour, the shrink concluded – much to my girlfriend’s chagrin – that I was a giving, kind, and devoted boyfriend and that she was being hypersensitive based on her insecurity about how she looked and about being cheated on.
My wife, on the other hand? On the rare occasions I’ve gone to a strip club in our five years together, she’ll give me $20 and tell me to get a lap dance for her.
THAT’s how you handle that situation effectively – by taking your irrational jealousy and disgust out of it. Take a deep breath and realize that if he’s good to you, loyal to you, married to you, and not cheating on you emotionally or physically, that strip clubs once a year are a very benign activity.
If you CAN’T do that – like my ex-girlfriend – then go find a guy who also finds young naked dancing women repellent. I don’t judge you for it. There’s just fewer men like this, that’s all.
With all of my advice, I’m talking about what MOST men do. MOST men find some enjoyment in the rare visit to the strip club. They’re not all bad. Stop with your value judgments and you’ll have more men who feel understood and close to you. Keep judging every guy who does something you don’t like, and you’ll find that most guys don’t want to stick around when they’re walking on eggshells.
That’s some priceless dating advice, Annie, if you choose to use it.
AnnieC 30
@Evan
You said “Thankfully pretty much all men can distinguish between a lap dance and a life partner. You just don’t understand how that’s possible since YOU don’t see it that way. This is YOUR limitation, Annie, not men’s.”
Nonsense. The issue that I responded to in part is with the hypocritical attitudes displayed by some men towards strippers. They would never marry a stripper just because she is one, not because of who she is as a person. Like the man who sleeps around but wants to marry a virgin.The best advice I could give to women, is to stay away from such men.
A man who also supports an industry that often(though not always) takes advantage of women in dreadful circumstances is also a man, as far as I’m concerned that has poor character or at best willfully ignorant. It is much more convienient to see it as a bit of fun, and ignore the really dreadful dark side of this industry. The sex industry is about as bad as it gets in all forms. Some things are not okay, not matter how much you like them.
I am not concerned Evan, with the fact that men enjoy looking at women, are aroused by women, or want to have sex with women they do not know or simply enjoy the pleasure of a lapdance. You are assuming insecurities where there are none. I do not see that there is any need for men or women to be ashamed of their natural sexual desires…that is not the issue here. It is what we do with those desires, that is the problem.
I am unlikely to feel empathy nor tolerate the men that simply say “hey it’s a guy thing to like this, therefore it’s okay to do it” . So no, we do not have to put up with such a lowering of ethical or moral standards because men or women say “deal with it”.
If you cannot understand why some women do not want to be with nor will accept men that see women(even just some women) as primarily objects for sexual gratification/pleasure and nothing more, then I will point you to a previous post of yours, where you are empathizing with men, who are treated only as sperm donors and bank accounts.
They are one and the same thing Evan. The sex industry literally cannot be compared to any other industry, because of what sex means to humanity.
And finally you said…..”Keep judging every guy who does something you don’t like, and you’ll find that most guys don’t want to stick around when they’re walking on eggshells.”
I do make a judgement call, on a few things, and this is one of them. That doesn’t mean I judge every tiny little thing that a man does. So stop assuming please that when a woman has an issue with something she has issues with everything. Maybe, she actually has a valid point.
Evan Marc Katz 31
Annie,
Just because YOU wouldn’t put up with a man who has ever been to a strip club doesn’t mean that it’s good advice for ALL women to dump their boyfriends who’ve been to strip clubs.
Telling them to do so – which would seem to be your point – is bad advice, since it becomes just another arbitrary dealbreaker… when you already have a LOT of them (height, weight, age, income, education, sense of humor, generosity, kids, kindness, loyalty, etc). Keep adding in dealbreakers just because YOU are bothered and there will be fewer and fewer deals.
Are you at least logical enough to concede that if millions and millions of good, relationship-oriented men can go to a strip club for a couple of hours and still be a great husband, that perhaps dismissing ALL of them because of YOUR sensitivity may not be the best idea? Or are you going to assert that because YOU feel that this is abhorrent that everyone else should, too? If you say the latter, you should probably leave the advice to me and stop dissenting on everything I write. It’s getting tiring.
Erin 32
@ErinLee Post #22. I am going to completely honest about my feelings on this issue. Yes, I am jealous at the thought of my man being entertained by a stripper. Why should I be ashamed of that? Does that mean I’m insecure or am I just being realistic about what type of feelings that situation invokes for me? Do I think he is going to leave me for the stripper? No. But that doesn’t stop the jealously. Especially knowing just how beautiful strippers can be. I would say that’s a pretty normal reaction. Just as normal as his attraction to nearly naked women. If we don’t expect men to use any self control when it comes to indulging his hormones with other women, then why do we expect women to use any self control when it comes to indulging her own emotions? If men are visual, women are emotional. If strip clubs are okay then it’s also okay for a woman to have any type of reaction she wants to that. Even ones that include jealously.
Men are visual. And no, that’s not going to change. But women are certain things too. Certain things that aren’t going to change either. Just because men are visual doesn’t mean everything men do under that visualness is “healthy” for every aspect of his life. Especially when they are in a relationship with another person and have someone other then themselves to think about. Men have a lot of potential to use their visualness for good and a lot of potential to use their visualness for not so good things. In my personal opinion, for men in relationships, strip clubs don’t seem to be the best place for them to be. We can downplay this by saying it’s okay as long as a man goes “once-in-awhile” or we can be realistic that even when men go “once-in-awhile” they are still looking to use strip clubs as an escapism from their real life relationships for a short period of time. They are looking to slip into a fantasy with other real women for a short period time that probably are hotter then their own partners. As many of the men in the letters illustrated when they made comments about their own partners vs. strippers.
I would hope that in a relationship, where we are partners, a man would be expect to work with me on how I think just as much as I’m expected to work with him on he thinks. Being attracted to women is healthy. Enjoying naked women is healthy. Indulging in that by stepping out for the night to blow of steam in a sexual situation with other women doesn’t seem that healthy to me for men that are in relationships. Blowing off steam with the guys at a baseball game, that’s healthy. Blowing off steam at a batting cage, that’s healthy. But when we get into sexual interaction with members of the opposite sex, things are a little different. And I don’t think it’s fair to ask women to control everything they are as woman and the things they desire out of a relationship while we also tell women that we need to let men indulge their sexual whims because men are “visual” or “sexual”. That’s not fair. Maybe this isn’t an issue of women needing to find confidence in themselves so much as it’s an issue of male confidence. Since many of the men in the letters seemed to have their own set of self esteem issues and since men go to strip clubs for not only the visual but apparently for some ego stroking, perhaps it’s time for men to have enough confidence in themselves that they don’t use strip clubs as scape goats for their self pleasure? When the right man come along, he won’t be a man that finds strip clubs all that important. He won’t feel the need to even visit them “once-in-awhile”. While I agree that women should compromise in relationships, I don’t think asking women to compromise on sexuality within a relationship and asking men to not compromise on their sexuality in a relationship is going to breed healthier relationships. I know I don’t need to look as good a stripper to attract a man. But I also don’t want to be the woman a man settles for emotionally while he needs to escape a couple times a year to the type of woman he really wants sexually.
I don’t think a woman should just dump a man because he went to a strip club. And I don’t think men that go to strip club are “bad”. But I don’t think it’s right to justify strip clubs on the back that men like naked young women. And that women just need to accept and understand this and give our boyfriends/husbands a $20 for lap dances “once-in-awhile” to be the “cool” girlfriend or wife. You’re either in a relationship or you aren’t. If you want to to check out of a relationships “once in awhile” in indulge a passion for other women, then maybe your not as committed or as loyal as you thought you were.
Men aren’t “bad” for liking strip clubs but lets not pretend they are being good partners either when they want to indulge in strip clubs and want their wives and girlfriends waiting for them at home with open loving vulnerable hearts and spread legs.
Evan Marc Katz 33
I hear your impassioned response, Erin. And I still think that a better move for you to think of a night at a strip club like a night at a baseball game. Because that’s exactly how threatening it is to your relationship.
Unless YOU decide that watching women dance is tantamount to cheating. Then, of course, it’s quite threatening.
To sum up, women who allow men to be themselves do better with men and engender their loyalty.
Women who try to deny men even their own FANTASY life – the occasional strip club or online porn – are pretty much demanding that men LIE to them.
If you don’t take his interest in viewing other women personally (and it truly is occasional, not obsessive), you will have a really amazing relationship with a man who appreciates how rare and special you are.
If you go on a diatribe about how disgusting he is, it’s pretty predictable how he’ll feel about you and your relationship when you’re done venting.
It’s your call, but as the guy in the room, I know what works better – acceptance. If acceptance doesn’t work for you, as you intimated above, you will either have to find the men who would NEVER go to a strip club or men who will attempt to sublimate their fantasy life with some degree of resentment. That often leads to cheating. Acceptance leads to him feeling loved, understood and not judged.
As you probably know, I married a non-jealous woman who trusts me and sees me as normal, not aberrant – and every day that I read this blog, I thank my lucky stars.
How exhausting it would be to fight these same battles at home!
I sincerely wish you peace in your future relationships and hope you consider the wisdom in where I’m coming from – a guy’s perspective.
Joe 34
@ Erin #32:
It sounds to me like you equate your boyfriend simply being at a strip club to him having sex with strippers. That sounds to me like a problem that you have, rather than a failing of your boyfriend’s.
AnnieC 35
@31
My main point was addressing Ann’s comment, about men who visit women to use them for sexual titilation, then devalue these women for the very reasons they use them.And then you make a strange comment that men don’t need to marry these women. No-one said they needed to marry them, Anne called out the hypocracy of men who will devalue that which they are willing to use.
These are men, that women should stay away from as this is a HUGE red-flag.
You are obviously quite welcome to dispense advise, but it’s not always going to be good or healthy for women and I hope you are capable of being challenged rather than suggesting other’s just “be quiet and let you dispense advice”. In this regard, your advice, imo is very poor.
Accepting that men like to look at women, is one thing. Accepting the we should support an industry that objectifies women and damages them, their children and society is another issue.
Both you and your wife, are making a mistake, in supporting this industry. I wonder how you will end up feeling when your daughter turns 12, and is asked by boys at school, to dance like a stripper for their pleasure?
I come from a country with legalized pretty much everything, and that is exactly what is happening to young women.
There is being easy going, and then there is being foolish.
Erin 36
Evan, if strip clubs are just like a night out at a baseball game, then why wouldn’t men choose the baseball game? My guess is they don’t choose the baseball game because they get something from a strip club that they don’t get from a baseball game. So it kind of worries me that you are asking me to view the two as the same thing. Please don’t mistake my intentions. I think male bonding is really important and completely encourage it! But wouldn’t a better environment be a baseball game and beer with the guys? What’s the need for a strip club as entertainment if baseball games are the same to men? I can only logically determine that there is something men take away from a strip club that is different then a baseball game right?
I want my guy to be himself. I want him to pursue the hobbies he enjoys. I want him to have fulfilling relationships with his friends and family. I want him to be happy with work and not feel discouraged by it. I don’t think it’s asking too much to not make strip clubs part of his life style. Are strip clubs that important to men that they define who men are, who he is?
I want my guy to want me to be who I am too. And I’m not a girl that is comfortable with men in relationships that want to take a brief vacation for a couple hours from their relationship to have fun with other younger more beautiful women. I’m 30. I’m not stupid. I know men like me less and less as I get older. I know men want 18 year olds. Why do men have to throw it in our faces and then act like these things should make us more vulnerable and loving toward them? Why I’m expected to welcome him home with open arms, an open heart and spread legs when what he wanted to do was take a brief vacation from me and our relationship? It’s like I’m expected to congratulate him for having sexy time with other women.
No woman wants to be a killjoy. I certainly don’t. But I don’t think it’s fair that men put women in that position to begin with. We are told that men want us for more then our bodies. Except when they are bored with our bodies and want to take some time with sexy younger bodies. Having to be the dutiful loving girlfriend while he wants to indulge himself with other women doesn’t feel very good. And I feel like there is a lot of shaming going on in your advice to get women to accept something that really, if we are honest with each other, is probably one of the hardest things women regularly have to deal with. Their man’s regular lust for other women. And I do take it personally. I give everything I can in my relationships. That includes controlling my own feelings and emotions when meet with things my boyfriends have done that hurt my feelings. I have never once told a man I thought he was disgusting for liking porn or strip clubs. I never told a man he couldn’t look at porn even though it hurts my feelings that they do. I think it’s unfair to tell women that we need to understand that men like us for so much more then our bodies but we also need to be accepting of his need to use other women for the bodies they have that are probably better then the real women in their life. That’s feels like a lot of pressure and expectations to put on women.
I totally get that men want to be accepted. And I want to accept my man. I except their flaws. I don’t have a boyfriend right now but I have accepted alot. But I can’t think of anything that makes me feel less accepted as a woman for my heart, mind, body and soul then when my man wants to use porn and strip clubs. these things make me feel less loved, less understood and completely judged. Just as my feelings toward these things can make a man feel those same things as you illustrated. So who is right and who is wrong? Am I wrong? Because I have the same feelings he has just from a different vantage point?
I don’t want to sublimate a man’s fantasy life. I really don’t. Again, no woman wants to be a killjoy. But no woman enjoys the idea of her husband getting lap dances from 18 year olds then coming home to her old tired butt and it having to be a big sacrifice for him to be with her. But I don’t think that asking a man to use some self control sometimes and skip out on the strip clubs is really that big a demand if I am working hard to keep our sex life open and fun and fresh. Some boundaries in a relationship shouldn’t be seen as a detriment to a man’s sexuality. His feelings and sexuality aren’t the only think at stake here.
I am really happy for you that you have a wonderful lady. I am well aware that men give accolades to women that are cool enough for approvel of strip clubs and porn. What’s not to like about that? He can have his cake and eat it too. That’s kind of how I see it. It’s a win win for a man. But as a woman, it’s a daily struggle. Sometimes men’s sexuality is a really wonderful thing. And other times it’s a really scary and threatening thing. I wish more men would understand that and have some kindness in their heart for how hard it can be for women. And not just chalk women up to trying to be killjoys, or prudes, or trying to stamp him down when a lot of women feel beat down by expectations they have to live up to be as sexy as the kind of fantasy women men repeatedly will turn to. Yes, I know I am insecure. But I think my opinion is still valid. And I think that if men need acceptance from their partners, we can admit that men have their insecurities too.
Just like men can’t deny their feelings toward things like strip clubs and porn, I can’t deny my own feelings about how these things make me feel. They make me feel unaccepted. Just like men can feel. So how do I rectify my feelings of unacceptance with his own? Are mine worth less then his?
I know this is a long post but those are my honest feelings on the subject. If we want men to be honest about their feelings, then we need to let women be honest about theirs too. Thanks for listening.
Helen 37
As a married woman, I agree with both Evan and AnnieC, strange as that may sound – because there are at least two different discussions going on here. And both of them center around that we make too big a deal out of sex in the US.
On the one hand, I don’t see men attending strip clubs as any worse than women indulging in chick flicks and romance novels. In fact, it’s unfair to men that we happen to stigmatize sex but not romance in our society, so that women can get our kicks by watching Colin Firth on the screen but men (and strippers) get shamed by their preferences and choices. Now, whether this stigmatization originated from men or from women, or both, I’m not sure, so am not trying to assign blame here.
On the other hand, I completely agree with AnnieC and Ann that the hypocrisy surrounding men vs. women who participate in strip clubs is intolerable – that men will watch strippers but would never marry them. Again, it boils down to our making too big a deal out of sex in society. Think of it in economic terms: there is a demand, there is a supply. Both sides get their needs met. Why should the suppliers (strippers) be shamed by the demanders (men) as not being worthy of LTRs? I wouldn’t automatically write off men who supplied me a washing machine, research funds, food, or anything else I demanded. @25: It’s not analogous to women supposedly not wanting to marry rockstars or poets because: 1) women do want to marry these guys, and 2) these occupations are not stigmatized to any degree approaching that of strippers.
The sooner we shed Puritanical notions toward sex, the easier all of this will be. But it won’t be for centuries yet, perhaps.
Nicole 38
@Helen,
So like every other woman on this thread, you’re going to ignore the fact that there are women who go to strip clubs to ogle hot men, and that those clubs are not hurting for customers?
Or are we back to acting like only women can be vulnerable and damaged and that stripping when done by men is acceptable b/c men are just animals and love taking off their clothes?
For the record, I don’t know any woman who goes to strip clubs who would want to date or marry those men either.
So the hypocrisy and exploitation of the opposite sex goes both ways, but no one here will EVER admit that.
As a woman, I get really tired of the insistence that all men are bad and shallow and all women are helpless and exploited by big mean men…
Helen 39
Nicole, you clearly misunderstood me entirely (reread 37, if you will), as I never once insinuated that men were mean or exploitative or that women were the only vulnerable ones. Nor is “every other woman on this thread” saying that either.
AnnieC 40
@Erin
You are far more couragous, and secure in yourself, than you give yourself credit for imo. I’ve mentioned something similar myself during these types of discussions, about the “baseball” game, vs strip bar. Of course they are not the same, otherwise, they’d go to the baseball game. Asking us to see it that way, doesn’t make it that way and we all know it.
I don’t quite have the same insecurity issues around younger womens bodies, although I probably have some experiences that perhaps you may not. (I’m a bit older than you). Men ultimately prefer an authentic, creative enthusiastic woman, despite the fantasy of one that is younger. But your authentic heartfelt view, is very much how many many women feel, and you have not allowed yourself to be shamed into pretending differently.Kudos to you.
You made some really great points.
@Helen,
I think there is a reason that people actually “want” to view sex in a more puritanical way. Puritanical views towards sex, didn’t just appear out of nowhere. Most of society had to agree with it(or they would have rebelled). The only society that has ever successfully negotiated a free-for all sexual society over thousands of years, are matriachal societies. It’s a very complex issue. Add our biological drives, our massive population and our struggle for civility, and it gets even more complex
Making sex something that is sacred, is far more beneficial for a civilized world than allowing it to become a free-for all. I agree with a lot of what you said though.
@Nicole.
No-one said here that women are always victims, and that men are always perpetrators. In fact I honestly think many men(and women), are very ignorant about the truth of this industry. They want to be liberal, cool, hip relaxed. Because being open minded and accepting of people is often a really wonderful thing and has allowed for many fair and equitable advancements.
My current partner has watched a lot of porn. We have talked about this a great deal, and I have made sure in every conversation that he does not, and will not feel shame for his sexual desires. I have however, asked him to read literature, and really really watch porn and what he knows about female sexuality, and pay attention to the industry. He now say’s, that I have ruined porn for him. Good. When the average decent bloke, really pays attention they begin to see the harm.
I really do not see, that men that are strippers, are in the same situation as women. That may sound hypocritical, and if I am shown to be wrong, then I am all ears but I have yet to hear about a male stripper, at least in western society that is being “exploited”. Women simply do not have the same sexual drives that men do.
Ann 41
I applaud very very loudly what the women have said on this thread! So glad that you are being honest and speaking out!!!
I know men who have lost their marriages because of their use of porn and strip clubs. And I know one stripper (relative of my SIL) who was practically destroyed by her experiences in that work. And I know professionals who have lost their reputation because of their after-work shenaningans with clients at strip joints.
Louis 42
Yes, these letters are sad, but mostly I just find these guys pathetic (esp. the fake huge boob fetishist), and are the type that I would laugh at. They don’t really “deserve” any sympathy. I’ll save that for cancer patients and victims of felony crimes. Losers.
Pat 43
Hi Evan & Everyone – I, too, do not really “approve” of guys going to strip clubs because: 1) they make me feel insecure about myself/my relationship and 2) I don’t like the blatant objectification of women, in general.
But as Evan stated earlier, I would be able to “deal with it” for the sake of letting my man indulge occasionally with his friends (just looking though – no lap dances!).
However, I believe that if I’m willing to give my man a “free card” to look at women who are younger, fitter, and prettier than me, I should be able to do the same. That is, I should be able to hit a “Chip n Dales” for a night out with the girls on the rare occasion. I would be doing this to fulfill my own fantasy (which is as important as his), curiosity, and also I’d be interested to see how he reacts. Does he feel the insecurity I do? If so, we should both talk about it. If he doesn’t, then I can partake in it as freely as he does.
Evan and everyone else – would this be unreasonable in your opinion?
Nicole 44
@Pat, Chip n Dale are cartoon chipmunks…but hey, if that is your ultimate fantasy, go for it.
AnnieC 45
@43
You said “Evan and everyone else – would this be unreasonable in your opinion? ”
The question I have for you is, are you sexually aroused by these men?
If so, then yes it would be a fair trade, sort of like an open relationship. If not, then no.
Women are not looking to become aroused by men, when they go to strippers for the most part. They tend to scream, giggle and get ridiculous, but the men are a joke and not even remotely a turn on.
Men are looking to be aroused by females, when they go to strippers.
It’s a difference, between male and female sexuality. And it is a pitymore women do not understand this because they are trying so hard to be fair, hip, cool…and like “one of the guys” that they think they are one and the same.
Big mistake.
Saint Stephen 46
@AnnieC (#45)
So the real motive behind you not wanting men (your SO) to go to strip clubs is because you don’t get to benefit from it as much as men do. That sounds selfish to me.
Since you explicitly understand the disparity between male and female sexuality, why can’t you just work with that? Men are wired to objectify women so you should just get over it.
If u’re a woman who gets excited and aroused by reading thrills & booms and your SO asked you to quit or he ends the relationship, would you feel happy or resentful and bitter about it? And if you feel resentful towards him do you think the relationship would be a happy one?
AnnieC 47
@46
@AnnieC (#45)
So the real motive behind you not wanting men (your SO) to go to strip clubs is because you don’t get to benefit from it as much as men do. That sounds selfish to me.
I indicated that a man and woman going to a strip club doesn’t MEAN the same thing to men and women, therefore it cannot be compared as the same thing. If I wanted the same sexual titillation as a stripper does for a man that would require an affair on my part. That, is what is equal in terms of our female, male sexual states.
You said
“Men are wired to objectify women so you should just get over it. ”
The first part of that, is the nail on the head. The 2nd part, is the issue.
Women are not objects. women are not a sport, or a means to an end, They are people, with thoughts, feelings, ambitions, their own identity.
Thanks for saying that. That is actually the entire point. It is far too easy for men to objectify women sexually. It isn’t entirely men’s fault, because it comes down to their early sexual experiences with arousal. IE..something gets aroused..and the young boy..objectifies his penis, because it doesn’t “seem”like it’s a part of him. And in turn objectifies that which his penis seems to “light up” over…female body parts.
The mind, doesn’t quite yet comprehend what is going on. So objectification is VERY VERY easy for a man to do. That IS THE POINT!!
And I accept that. What I am saying is that it is not okay to objectify women just because men want to, and men need to learn how NOT to do that, rather than us women support.
Because wether you like it or not, women are not fools. When they are no longer respected and they are used, they will use you back. You will be sperm, you will be money, you will be ego. It’s all fun and games, when you claim another must accept their objectification, it’s highly offensive when it happens to you.
I accept that you objectify. I’m asking you not to. Because it hurts women and a social belief that treating another like a means to an end, hurts everyone.
And when you ask me for help, in the family courts, the DV brigade and the false rape establishment along with alimony and unfair child support..IE the objectification of men..I will help you.
I ask you for the same respect. Do not support anything that objectifies women and do not accept it. A lap dance is never just a lapdance. And sex is never “just” sex.
Pat 48
@AnnieC (47)
I agree with most of what you said. My question to you is, given your viewpoint, how would you handle the situation of a boyfriend/husband wanting to go to strip clubs or watch porn by himself?
John 49
Blame it ALL on feminism!
Yes, you got that right. Feminism has messed up the normal relationship that ought to exist between men and women. Instead we have this convoluted mess. Both men and women are trying to meet their needs at unsatisfactory outlets. Men use strip clubs, massage parlors, and porn; women use antidepressant pills, sex toys, and provision of easy sex to get male love or its substitute. It’s a really messed up world.
AnnieC 50
@Pat, I know this is an old thread, not sure if you are still reading,
I won’t tolerate porn watching or strip club going-ons. It’s a choice that he makes. And I make a choice, in choosing not to be with him.
The difference between myself( I think) and other women who struggle with it is that society has women convinced that when they take issue with porn, it is THEIR problem. This is so bad, that women are now convinced to act like strippers and porn stars to turn on their men. Of course, they will get tired of this in a marriage, and will no longer try and then the men will complain. It’s ridiculous. They say men are just exhibiting their natural male nature and women shouldn’t be so “prudish” and “silly” and “emotional”.
But of course when you come across the natural female nature, which is to create babies and have some-one care for you and pay for you while you raise them, men complain and say they are being used.
Nobody wants to be treated as a means to an end. Men will say, that sex and sexual stimulation is no big deal. I say to them, if it’s no big deal, then you will have no issue, not supporting that industry.
Of course sex is a big deal to men. It’s why it is the 3rd largest black-money market in the world, and why human trafficking of women and children is on the increase.
So any man that say’s it’s not a big deal, it’s “just like a sport” is kidding himself and lying to you. He wants his cake and eat it too. No go, sorry.
Saint Stephen 51
@AnnieC
Has it occurred to you that men watch porn to learn new sex techniques and become better lovers? What about taking care of his male desire and in return he takes care of your female desire? Talk about a win win situation.
Ray 52
stephen@51
Using porn to learn new sex techniques is like watching a movie to learn how to drive a car. And besides, porn isn’t about women’s pleasure. Never has been. I sincerely doubt that you are concerned about the woman’s ‘pleasure’ while you are watching porn… and men who do it routinely get a distorted image of both women’s bodies and women’s sexuality. We aren’t here to be cum dumpsters.
AnnieC@50
I won’t date men who watch porn or go to strip clubs either… I’ve watched porn before and went to at least three strip clubs in various locations before I came to this conclusion. I agree that there is nothing ‘healthy’ about it for anyone.
I found it all rather pathetic and sad… I don’t feel threatened by it in the least either. It just makes me lose respect for the man.
Ray 53
Evan@33
I probably wouldn’t confront a guy I was with… or tear him down about it. I wouldn’t feel jealous or threatened either. I’d just fall out of love with him and find something else to do (or some other man to ‘do’). And when we are in bed together, I’ll remember that to him, women are mostly just orifices and ‘sport’… and I will act accordingly. He will not get my full love. There will always be a wall there, no matter what else he says or does.
Porn and strip clubs are one way that men kill the love their partners have for them. Silence doesn’t = acceptance. These are slow but steady withdrawals that men are making from their ‘love’ bank… and every time they engage in it, they are draining the life from their relationship… drop by drop.
75% of divorces are initiated by women. Wanna know why? Neglect. Lack of respect for her feelings. Compartmentalization.
AnnieC 54
@51
Sex is not about technique. It is about 2 people, who are choosing an intimate act, that can be an expression of love, fun, acceptance, friendship and desire.
Sex, is also…the act of pro-creation. Sex = a Child.
How can you learn about sex, from porn? How can a woman learn about romance, from a movie that ends in a wedding ring? You can’t.
You say that you watch things to learn technique, I can guarentee you, you are just learning mechanics. This does not teach you to be a lover of women. This does not teach you how to get a woman interested IN sex with you continually and consistantly throughout your life. It just teaches you “some” technique(and poorly at that) IF the woman is interested.
Do you k now how to get her interested in the first place? and more importantly, do you know how to KEEP her interested?
Think about this…Women can masturbate and orgasm, therefore why do we really need you sexually if we just want to “come” through pornographic techniques.?
Sex isn’t about technique, that can be learned and everyone is different. A great sex life, relies on a great relationship. And that is what porn/strippers/prostituties does not teach. It provides a reward that is supposed to be the end result of something that takes work, Ie a relationship.
Intimacy cannot be bought or sold. It must be earned, through human relationship, not $$$
Saint Stephen 55
@Ray
I say this as a guy who don’t do casual flings.
I started watching porn at a young age and still do. When i eventually get married I’ll tell my wife why I watch it and how it has been a part of my life for long and is no different than a favorite genre of movie or music. It has also helped me learn many techniques in bed that will keep her satisfied and make our sex life more satisfying. I have a whole box of new tricks now.
When someone wants to learn to workout, they watch workout videos. When you want to learn to cook, you watch Food-Tv programs. People who are learning to dance watch dance videos for new tricks. When you want to learn to have good sex, you simply watch porn, period.Saying or thinking that watching porn is a sub form of cheating or makes someone an advocate of female objectification is just like saying watching a serial killing movies makes you an accomplice or an endorser of murder.
Watching porn is not cheating and most men actually use it as a tool to improve their sex lives. A lot of women think men watch Xrated movies for whatever reason, and just because “They” think it, it must be true. But just because something is how you “Think” it is, doesn’t mean that’s how it is.
Saint Stephen 56
@AnnieC
I respectfully disagree with your comment @54.
Lots and lots of women have stayed in abusive relationships/marriages due to a healthy dosage of good quality sex.
If what u said happens to be actually correct we wouldn’t see women gravitating towards jerks who possess sexual prowess. They would be dating the nice guys. Your looks and attitude first, will get a woman interested in you and afterwards good sex will keep her around.
If I’m going to spend the rest of my life “making love” to one woman it needs to be exciting with everyday seeming like a new day or else it just gets boring and begins to feel like a chore. I want a woman that will be open minded for us to explore our sexuality together (trying out new patterns we (or I) learn from porn).
Ray 57
stephen@55
…and one more time… porn isn’t about a woman’s pleasure. What you are ‘learning’ there is absolutely bogus. Even worse, you are internalizing expectations of reactions from the female ACTORS… But I suppose that never occurred to you.
I predict your partner will be having lots of fake orgasms, just like the porn stars. LOL. and that you won’t even know the difference. Even funnier…
and about the analogy to horror movies… yea, I don’t date men who like violent movies, and especially not horror movies. The latter is actually a deal breaker with me. It doesn’t make him a serial killer, but anyone who enjoys watching something suffer and calls it entertainment is sick and not to be trusted. Same goes with men who watch porn.
They usually are narcisstic to the extreme and couldn’t care less about pleasing a woman. To them, women are just orifices and a ‘prop’ in their little sex play. Women are there for their pleasure, just like in their favorite porn movie. They aren’t human beings… notice the absence of a plot or any real dialogue in porn? (other than the b*tch, c*nt, sl*t name calling perhaps)… There is a reason for that.
Yea, you aren’t talking to some naive little waif who goes on assumptions. I’ve seen what you guys watch… and have been to where you go. It’s a laugh riot.
Saint Stephen 58
Ray @33
Women initiate divorce for lots of reasons. Emotional and physical abuse being the majority. I’d also argue that these women got into abusive marriages partially or completely by their own making. But i wont go into that now to forestall the thread from derailing.
Ray 59
stephen@58
to get back on topic… One could argue that if it weren’t for women willing to be prostitutes, porn stars, and strip club dancers, then men wouldn’t be ‘tempted’. THat doesn’t exempt men from their personal responsibility to make other choices.
Not sure what you mean by ‘of their own making’. My observation of abusers is that they are skilled in the pathology of dependence. I think everyone has witnessed this… either in their job by a particularly abusive boss, a partner, or a friend. I used to work for a company that I could swear had this technique down to a science in order to keep their employees loyal… and literally destroy those they no longer wanted or lwhom wanted to leave.
First, they isolate you
THen they slowly whittle away at your self esteem
… until, ultimately, you start to believe you can’t possibly live without them (their company, their companionship, their ‘whatever’ it is they want you to accept).
Saint Stephen 60
@Ray (#57)
By your response, I presume you must’ve been watching the wrong types of porn or haven’t watched a variety and therefore u’ve run to premature conclusion based on the few ones you watched. You should Try watching Karma Sutra.
Oh and for the last time there is nothing wrong with watching porn. Many perfectly normal relationship oriented men i know – watch it. Some of them are even married
The reason you disagree with me is not because I’m wrong about my assertions that men use porn to develop their sexual skill, rather is because of your insecurities born out of not being able to compete or compare with the porn actress in terms of looks and prowess.
Judging by the premise of your entire post on this subject I’ve come to the following conclusions that;
1)Virtually every man would have to pass through the eye of a needle just to be with someone like you.
2)The type of man you would want to be with is either someone who developed his sexual skills by experience, and when i mean experience I’m talking about a man who had slept around with so many different women – and this type might eventually cheat on you and leave you for some other woman.
Or a man who is lame and inexperienced in bed and isn’t interested in improvement – And on this one you would be the one to eventually resent and dump him.
Saint Stephen 61
Ray @59
You can’t control the actions of other people – You can only control yours.
I don’t endorse abusive behaviors in either genders, but I’d rather avoid getting into one than waste my life whining about it.
I’ve never seen any woman who screened for a man’s character first and foremost and still wound up getting into an abusive marriage. But again, I said i won’t veer the premise of this thread.
AnnieC 62
@60
You are the end result of a culture of porn and you don’t even realize it.
Your belittling comments as to why women dislike porn(we can’t compete yadda yadda yadda), is another attempt to shame women into submission. It doesn’t work. Not all of us are that easily manipulated. We know why we dislike it, if you’d like to know..then ask us. Don’t assume.
Your views on experience are also wrong imo. Men who sleep around with many different women are not good in bed. They are usually horrible at it as their sex lives are a result of seeing sex as an act of self-gratification. Same with those that watch porn. Women don’t go for these bad-boys because of their sexual prowess for goodness sake.
And you will not learn about how to get and maintain a long-term healthy sexual relationship from watching porn. If men are doing it for that reason, then they are making a mistake. How many of these men, who are learning from porn simply watch it and don’t masturbate to it? Please..it’s about self-gratification. At least be honest about it.
Experience with ONE person, learning over time through talking, sharing, playing and being very deeply honest is how you end up with great sex. I have no interest in the player that fools around or the porn user. Give me the enthusiastic virgin or sexually naive man any day over the player.
You can claim there is nothing wrong with watching porn(or strippers). Many people make that claim. We believe they are wrong and if you’d like to actually learn why, try listening to others and reading about it so you can at least understand the alternative point of view even if you don’t agree with it.
AnnieC 63
@56
People do not stay in abusive relationships due to sex. The reasons they do this are very very complicated. Read up on the terms, co-dependancy, emotional Incest, Borderline personality disorders, and narcissistic personality disorders to begin with.
People gravitate towards those with a similar level of emotional/psychological development. Sex is a very small piece of the pie, particularly for women.
Saint Stephen 64
AnnieC, actually this comment below, kind of refutes your assertions on post #63. Had to copy it from another thread just to buttress my point @56.
evan, you are so funny. i can relate to jennifer. i am still pinning over my last boyfriend who was an alpha male (he took off with another chick 8 months ago whom he met at the pub while i was away). i have to ask myself every day what is it that i miss so much about him and then i have to remind myself to thank god every day that he’s gone and that he’s now toxic to some other poor/desperate women. he lied to me, he cheated on me, he never spent time with me, he didn’t give me anything or take my anywhere, he didn’t listen to me. i was miserable and yet i couldn’t let go (and i’m pretty, fun to be with, easy going with a masters in engineering and had other guys trying to crack onto me). so what was it that would have made me hold on for the rest of my life if he’d have me … “it was the sex” - ”it was like a drug” (the ultimate high which i had to have more of even though being with him was making me soul sick – and no, i’m not a nympho). it was best i’d ever had and i thought it was a reflection of the way he felt about me. and it was all the bull$hit he said about himself which was designed to make me think he was a hero. but the sad reality was that he was obviously good in bed with all women (because he said “i’ve been told i’m good in bed”) and the bull$hitting about being a hero was to hide the fact that if i knew what he’d really done (cheated on his ex-wife, was a total as$hole to live with) etc, few women would go near him in the first place. and yet, i still miss him like crazy.
AnnieC 65
@64
If it was just “sex” then women would be addicted to their vibrators. Sex, is a human connection. It is the “person” or the situation you get addicted to, not some “thing” called “sex”.
People just aren’t self-aware enough to realize it. They make excuses.
Marianne 66
You are asking women to accept, to put up with something that they are fundamentally not okay with their mates doing? You say acceptance works better, but when it comes down to it, works better for who? For the guy who gets to happilly keep doing something that his wife/gf is not okay with and suffers with… to keep the relationship in one piece? Seriously?
Besides that, I think that everyone has their own limits as to what kind of behaviour is acceptable from a mate, what is bothers-me-but-I-can live with it behaviour, and finally, what is dealbreaker behaviour.
For me, personally, I would be only okay with my partner going to a strip club if I knew that he was someone who really wasn’t into strippers but was just going along to be with his friends. Or if I knew his character well enough to know that he has a lot of self control and wouldn’t do something that would be unacceptable to me and would hurt me if I found out. I draw the line at getting a lap dance, touching, or being touched. Defenitely no women, naked or otherwise, sitting in his lap. Sorry, if that is what a man thinks he “has a right to” because he has been faithful for a number of years, then I would seriously consider ending the relationship. This is a DEALBREAKER for me, and for many women. Like one of my guy friends (god bless him) said to me years ago: “If in your heart, you draw the line at a lap dance, you stick firm to that line, and be a woman. Don’t be afraid to stand up for yourself. And love yourself enough to walk away if the person you’re with can’t and won’t respect what is most important to you.”
The type of man that I want in my life is sensitive and considerate and honest, and would think of how his actions would impact my feelings. He would have a conscience, and would not be able to make love to me knowing that my heart would break if I knew what he did days or hours earlier. Yes!!! There are men like this!!! Find them, date them, love them, marry them… they would rather not see you hurt than experience a selfish three minutes of some stranger grinding her breasts in his face. I am friends with several of them (see the quote by my awesome friend above), and these are attractive, intelligent men with a lot going for them.
If on the other hand, you’re honestly okay with your man going to a club and getting a lap dance, good for you. If it turns you on, good for you. If you like going to strip clubs and watching your man get a lap dance, good for you. Enjoy yourself. Go banannas. You are two consenting adults. (I won’t get into my feelings about the MAINSTREAM porn/sex industry here, which I have strong opinions about and which I feel objectifies women.)
What pisses me off is people acting all high and mighty and because THEY let their husbands and boyfriends get lap dances and it doesn’t bother THEM. This is such an immature, trashy attitude, and it makes me think of a heckler on the Jerry Springer show: “Honey! I’m more woman than you because I let MY man go as wild as he wants at bachelor parties!!! MY man loves me because I”M not a PRUDE!” …get over yourself.
Before someone gets their panties or briefs in a twist, the reverse also pisses me off: Holier than thou judgment passed on those who have
different tastes and boundaries… I know someone who is in a committed relationship and likes to get a lap dance from a stripper once in a while. His girlfriend? It turns him on, she gets turned on and likes to watch. Whatever. Personally I don’t understand how she can be okay with this, but we’re talking about another person here, not me. No one is lying to the other, no one is decieving the other, no one is ignoring what they value most, no one is getting hurt. Now that’s really something that “works better”.
I think I have said all that I have needed to say.
Ray 67
stephen@60
I seriously had to laugh out loud at that one Stephen..
Next you are going to start telling me I don’t like people who do drugs because I’m jealous they are so ‘happy’.
Um, since when is the Kama Sutra ‘porn’. Because it discusses sexuality? that does not make it ’porn’. I guess you could debate the merits of ‘art’ vs ’porn’ too. Most people know what the difference is.
Again, ‘porn’ is not instructive in the slightest. It does absolutely ZERO to help you connect with a real woman. It does just the opposite, actually. Maybe you need that little escape… ok… assess THAT why don’t you. Why you need that escape. It ain’t all physical, my friend.
AnnieC 68
@66
You said
“What pisses me off is people acting all high and mighty and because THEY let their husbands and boyfriends get lap dances and it doesn’t bother THEM. This is such an immature, trashy attitude, and it makes me think of a heckler on the Jerry Springer show: “Honey! I’m more woman than you because I let MY man go as wild as he wants at bachelor parties!!! MY man loves me because I”M not a PRUDE!” …get over yourself.”
This used to piss me off. Now It just makes me glad to be me. When I talk about the sexual intensity I want to feel with my man,(which means neither of us give into any kind of activity that may reduce it) he loves my focus. He loves my intensity and that I want it to be about him.
A woman giving a man a free-pass to a lap-dance, can be just as controlling as the woman who doesn’t. You think she’s being easy going and one of the guys. Nope. That’s not the way women work.
Not something men have yet to figure out, but they will.
Lea 69
I wish to address Dan #9, with my personal experience on the subject of a strong rejection and the harm it does to a sensitive boy at the age of 13. The only reason I am putting myself out there on this subject is to perhaps enlighten from the female experiences I’ve had. I don’t have the answer. Maybe my experiences may help someone in some way, possibly in rearing a son, or a daughter to be more empathetic with the opposite sex.
“It was from a shy guy who was hurt when, as a 13 year old, his crush was mean to him. Then he was hurt many times after that through high school. My heart goes out to him. In dating, males have to make the first move. I don’t think females at that age know how much hurt they can inflict on a sensitive boy who makes such a gesture for the first time. People are sensitive, and scars last a long time. This is one of those key differences between men and women that women will never understand.”
I’m specifically addressing Dan’s statement about females at the age of 13 not knowing how much hurt they can inflict on a sensitive boy and his statement that people are sensitive and scars last a long time.
This was my experience with boys at a young age, age 10 to be exact, the summer going into fifth grade, my body started it’s monthly cycle and with that developing breasts. Many of my friends had started “the change”.
The boys behavior, at that sensitive young age, were relentless in harassing, teasing, laughing, grabbing and snapping bra straps… then the questions started, again more laughter, more talk about how disgusting you were because you bled. You get the idea…by the time I was 13 and boys started to ask me out, I had, had three years of taunting by those same boys. I remember thinking… “you’ve got to be kidding, you want to date me… I have endured 3 years of harassing and now you want to go out with me?”
Yes, you are correct Dan, scars last a long time, especially at that sensitive age, a harsh rejection… was payback. Nothing more, nothing less.
I am 50′s now, I am a petite blond who has had many men ask to date me. It became such a distraction in my early 20′s that I wore a wedding ring out on the nights I wanted to have a girls night out, just so I wouldn’t be hit on. Even in my 50′s I am still getting attention. Now it’s FWB requests from my married male friends. I am also married with children.
Could it be that we create problems for ourselves that we refuse to acknowledge and take responsibility for? I appreciate Evan’s approach in getting woman to look within themselves, reduce the list, the realization that changing the criteria may produce different results…and possibly everlasting love. Could the solution be as simple as showing the opposite sex more empathy?
NonExist 70
Read a couple of the letters on the site.
Did not need to read much because of life experience I know about what some people would term shadier businesses.
Yes it is an exploitative industry for many of the women. And yes many of them, with a few exceptions, do it because they have had certain issues and hardships which influences them to choose that lifestyle.
Just as many of the men go there seeking the fantasy of a connection free erotic romp, some of the performers are seeking attention and affection, in addtion to the money, that they did or cannot seem to receive from elsewhere.
But it is a fantasy pure and simple. And it is, as many people mentioned bereft of the emotional connections people share in normal relationships.
As posters have said above, dropping a wad of cash for a quick lusty lapdance is easier than trying to connect in a real relationship.
This ease heightens the appeal for those who either find it difficult to initiate or maintain relationships, or those who for whatever reason are in a relationship but feel it is unfulfilling.
And to many , a false temporary rush is better than or lets them escape from the effort laden reality of their actual life.
Similar to those who find it hard to be in a relationship because they do cannot maintain that initial biochemical high that accompanies initial infatuation. And so the keep switching partners because the slow burn of love is not enough for them.
I do agree with some of the ladies here that if anyone does not like it, then let it be known and put your fut down about it in regards to a mate.
Katt 71
Ruins many relationships! The girls are all messed up. They have no healthy boundries.. Men are also unhealthy .. Its a sad sick world . It gets sicker as they move from stage to hotels! Strippers should be in serious therapy
Jen 72
Does reading a romance novel equate to seeing a live stripper and possibly getting a lapdance? Wouldn’t the equivalent have to be something like another real-life man paying for a wonderful dinner or something else romantic the woman wants, but that her own man does not have the resources to provide? That might make him feel sort of the same type of inadequacy that a woman might feel if she compared her own body to that of a stripper. She is being compared to a real life fantasy that can be touched and interacted with, not words on a page. I think fantasy is fine, but that when it becomes live, it can be more hurtful and it can be seen as escaping reality.
Maria 73
@Evan 33
Evan, thanks for all the invaluable insight. Upon stumbling upon your website because I wanted to know about this whole “Guy / Stripper” dynamic…
Now, I must say that I have had a few fun random nights with my Gay guy Bff’s at a strip club… DEF fun times.. Funny enough most of the guys I have dated in the past say “I don’t really like strip clubs. I don’t like just giving my money to random girls.” Which I understand but now I have started dating someone new who says he enjoys going to strip clubs because it’s like paying for a “show” and that it’s all about “control” when it comes to actually “hooking up” with a stripper… Hence, he doesn’t go there to “hook up” with a stripper but just to enjoy the “show.” I’d even go as far as saying I may even enjoy going with him if he would to ever ask me or if we ever ended up randomly at one…There is something pretty erotic and sexy about that. As well as even “stripping” for him myself….I mean what’s so wrong about him just giving me dollar bills?
Since this is a fairly new relationship I’m not too bothered by it but I’m not sure how I would feel if whoever I end up with wants to do this more often than not because he doesn’t really care for baseball games or even going to the movies because he enjoys this as his form of entertainment.
Thank you for clarifying that being ok with this shows a sense of maturity & being secure but I get the sense that with this guy it’s a little more than the “random bachelor party” thing.”
i also know in any relationship you can’t “change” anyone about anything you DO just have to accept them as they are but I guess my question is I don’t even know why I’m insecure about him going with his “friends” rather than with me there? I know I know I gotta “trust” but I can’t get over that maybe the “Power” of the “clear heels” will just take over.. It’s like Kryptonite I feel…..
Signed ,
Dazed & Confused about Clear heels…
Sunnyg 74
I have an opinion on this why should we as women in a relationship have to be acceptable of this and say guys just need to be able to fantasize etc. I think it’s not fantasizing any longer when u areactively participating and interacting with a live human being. Fantasing is when it’s make believe and doesn’t really happen . As for it being the same when a woman reads a novel?? That’s by far so different no one except her imagination is there? Strip clubs r a deal breaker for me. I’d rather be alone than with a man that thinks the occasional once a year lap dance is ok. There are in fact men that don’t like strip clubs . Paying for attention etc. I’m sure these guys saying it is ok , would they be okay if they come home and they find their wife or gf in the kitchen with a naked man and she’s in a chair while he’s rubbing on her getting her all hot and she has an orgasm and thenhs he says oh he oh I just needed a little entertnment I was a little bored with youAnd this will make tonight so much better. Then give the guy $20 and he leaves. I’m sure no guy would be ok with that!!
Imjustsayin 75
Men are basically perverts, period. I’ve asked many men, including my boyfriend that, and they concur. They need to see the female form. The more exposure of that form, the better. I, after 53 years on Earth have come to grips with this. I know that I look good only because I am told this. I don’t feel that way personally. I have been in the past a very jealous type person, I guess mainly because I somehow in some distorted way thought that the men I was with would be so satisfied with me that there would be no need to have that extra jolt of leering, and lusting, because I was there. Wow, what a ding-a-ling I was. I went to a strip club once so I could study all of the men that were there. I was so amazed at the diversity of those men. There were groups, probably from a bachelor party, there were those who sat back all by themselves in the darkest corner so no one (including the girls would notice them), there were a few who sat right underneath the girls and dangled money, there were businessmen who just sat at their tables talking and occasionaly looking at the girls, there were those who just sat and waited for the girls who were giving lap dances to come around to their table, and there were those who sat at the bar and didn’t look at all. They each had their own diverse reason for being there. So I think it is unfair to just judge a man who goes to one as somehow a sad, disatisfied, pathetic, human being. It gave me a whole new take on that part of the male pshyche. Also, the green eyed-monster has left my midst. Can’t change the beast…so I just accept it.
Hm 76
We overcomplicate thing sometimes.
Look. Of course men find youth and beauty a turn on. Women typically find older and stronger a turn on. Big whoop.
I don’t think all men who go to strip-clubs are sad or bad; unless they’re doing it behind their significant other’s back, then I do. I feel bad for women who think strip-clubs and porn are simply a reality and they just have to deal with it. Listen to me, IT IS NOT. I have known so many great faithful men in my life to know there are good ones left.
I’ve been married for years. I married someone who is strong, handsome, and morally upright more-so than other men. He had been to a strip-club before with friends before we got together. Now, you have to really know who you’re marrying, gals. Ann, there ARE men out there that will respect you and will explore their sexual fantasies with you, and no other. Basically what I’m saying is REAL men still exist. As shallow as it sounds, I’m thankful I am considered an attractive woman in my late 20′s and I look young for my age. Him and I are in agreement on a number of things, and we’re open about many things even down to how we would feel if we let ourselves go. We’re not shallow people but we easily come to terms with the fact that our appearance is important to both of us, so we try to keep up with our looks. Sometimes it seems women can be a little unfair to men in thinking that men should accept everything about them (like if they gain 100 lbs after a couple years of marriage). Look, there are legitimate excuses to these things, but you have got to realize that body image is important to a marriage (same goes for you men). My husband is completely faithful to me, as I am to him. There was one spot in our marriage where something was lacking, and we opened up about what we basically fantasized about, but were a little too shy to do and that opened the door wide, and things have been great since. This is what a strong marriage looks like. It’s important to open that door before it’s shut and either one of you goes off looking to fulfill that elsewhere.
My husband and I are also very open about jealousy. We’re both very jealous people, and we both know to tread lightly on this issue. The mutual respect on this helps a lot on these types of issues. Many men hate to admit their jealousy, and that can certainly be harmful when only the woman is the one admitting and feeling like there is something wrong with her.
Hats off to the women who are perfectly fine and happy with their man groping or gazing at the parts of other naked women. I for one, am not.