How Do I Get My 12-Year FWB to Want to Be in a Committed Relationship?

how-do-i-get-my-12-year-fwb-to-want-to-be-in-a-committed-relationship

There was a time in my life when all I wanted was a boy toy. I had an exceptional career with a lot of pressure that took up a lot of my time. Still during that period I wanted sex, what I didn’t want was all the work and time a relationship consumes.

During that time, I met a delightful man that is 9 years my junior and was a perfect lover. He was always a gentleman, and always very passionate and completely satisfying. We have been seeing each other for over 12 years. We get together about once a month although lately it has been a little less than that. Our times together are always well prepared for and we make them an occasion. I always dress well, bring something sexy for later. He loves to cook and so always prepares a wonderful meal. We have wine and drinks after and of course lots of flirting and great conversation. I have attributed the decline in our frequency to our ages. He was 40 when we first got together and I was 48. During that time we have dated others. Also during that time I have gotten to know him and we have become sort of friends.

I have now reached a stage in my life where I’m retired from the high-pressure job, relaxed in my lifestyle and while I have dated others I have not found anyone as satisfying sexually as he is. I also haven’t found a man I like and respect as a person as much as I do him. I have reached a point in my life where I would like a more interactive and committed relationship. Something beyond the “date night boyfriend experience” thing.

The point of all that is this, how can I take this to the next level without ruining what is already there that I really enjoy? I also wonder if there is anything on his side of the fence as far as feelings go. I need a man’s perspective on this from someone that doesn’t know me and wants to tell me what I want to hear.

Thank you for responding in advance.
Eve

I’m not sure I’ve ever told anyone what she wanted to hear, so you came to the right place, Eve.

I believe you’re shit-out-of-luck.

I believe that, over TWELVE YEARS, this man has established exactly the kind of relationship he wants to have with you – one where you get together for sex less than once per month.

I believe you’re shit-out-of-luck.

I believe that you’re misattributing the decline in your contact to age, because it’s easier to handle than the obvious alternative: that cooking you dinner in exchange for sex once every six weeks is the perfect amount of emotional investment he wants to make in you.

I believe that the fact that you can say, as a sixty-year-old woman, after over a decade of sex with the same man, “we have become sort of friends,” indicates a willful blindness, a sort of wishful thinking about the depth of your relationship. If you haven’t become friends in twelve years and you’re seeing each other less, what makes you think this partnership is due for an upswing in intensity?

I believe that you’re lonely and don’t know what real love is all about – which is the only reason you would accept this relationship for as long as you did on these terms and think that because he’s sexually satisfying that he’d be a good committed partner for you.

You know what makes for a good committed partner? A man who wants to COMMIT to you.

This man has given no indication that he wants to do that.

So what we have here is a disconnect of epic proportions. Let’s use a metaphor to drive this home:

You know what makes for a good committed partner? A man who wants to COMMIT to you.

You were hired to do one job – that of a part-time intern who comes into the office once a month.

After twelve years at this company, you want to renegotiate your terms – and not just renegotiate, but take the leap from part-time intern to co-owner.

Let’s just say there’s nothing wrong with asking for a promotion, but I wouldn’t count on it happening.

Your best bet?

Cut this guy off and start dating in earnest instead of mistaking your booty call for your husband.

Was that honest enough?

Evan

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Comments:

  1. 1
    S.

    Evan’s right on this one.  Just because her needs changed, doesn’t mean his have.  And after 12 years, you can’t tell how someone feels (or not feels) for you? It’s not that difficult with so much time, but it also speaks to the lack of depth in this situation. Which was what they both wanted.

    If I were speaking to Eve, I’d ask her what she really wanted.  She never says ‘marriage’.  She says ‘next level’.  What is the next level for you?  She may only want a little more contact.  I don’t think she’s going to get even that from Twelve Year Man, but if she wants marriage, she has to own that and go out and look for a man who wants that.

    And she has to stop comparing other men to Twelve Year Man sexually.  If that’s she all wants from a man, stick with what she’s got.  But if you want more, you may have to give a little (not give up on satisfaction entirely) in that area for the other things you might want.

    1. 1.1
      Slim

      Yeah, I wonder just how much Eve really wants a serious relationship. Going 12 years on a  monthly schedule suggests a disinclination on her part as well.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Yeah, I wonder just how much Eve really wants a serious relationship. Going 12 years on a  monthly schedule suggests a disinclination on her part as well.

        I thought that, too. She mentions that they both dated other people, but I’m guessing nothing serious came of those situations as they continued their FWB arrangement for 12 years. She doesn’t mention breaking it off at various times during other relationships.

        1. S.

          The other guys weren’t as good in bed.  This guy is and he’s convenient.  Everyone can be on their best behavior one day (or less) out of a month.  Maybe she saw the other men at times when they were less than their best.  I also get the sense that she was really, really busy with work and satisfied with that.

          Now that work is off the plate, she has time and energy to put into a relationship. And she’s curious about this dude. Maybe she had been before but no time to really delve into it.

          If she speaks with him, I hope she comes back and lets us know how it goes.  She does seem to enjoy what they have. Hey, I say continue to enjoy it, but eventually start to open up to others.  The ‘little less’ is interesting too.   The FWB thing might be winding down.

      2. 1.1.2
        Henriette

        Maybe Eve doesn’t really want a serious relationship.  Or maybe she, like many of us (certainly, like me), has found some of her wants have changed over the past decade+.  In this time, Eve has retired, developed feelings for this guy, seen possibilities with other men lead to naught.  12 years ago, she didn’t want a relationship but it seems to me she does want one now, and might be willing to end this arrangement if it doesn’t become one.  I hope, for her sake, that she tells her lover how her wants/ needs have evolved, and ends it if he does not want the same.

  2. 2
    Kenley

    I think Evan’s assessment of the situation is probably correct.  Yet, I wonder why are we so cowardly when it comes to relationships.  Why can’t she just ask for what she wants and see what he says?  It is true that behavior is a good indication of what a person believes, but sometimes it isn’t the whole story.  What is he doesn’t press for more because she doesn’t think she wants more.   Again, I am not saying Evan isn’t right.  I am just saying why not ask the guy and be prepared for whatever he says.

    For me, I wouldn’t give up reliable good sex and a fun evening until I found a suitable replacement.   Just sayin…🙂

  3. 3
    AMT

    Eve says “How can I take this to the next level without ruining what is already there that I really enjoy?” She is not satisfied with where things are at now, so as Evan said, she should go find what she wants (a real relationship). Whether she approaches her FWB about it and he declines, or whether she goes out in search of a full-time partner, or even if the FWB does move forward, any way you look at it the FWB situation was ruined the second Eve became dissatisfied.

     

     

  4. 4
    Clare

    Eve,

     

    Evan is absolutely right. Not too long ago, I was involved in your situation for about four years. Except we weren’t just “sort of friends,” we had a deep emotional bond and connection. We’d become friends with benefits in exactly the way you described – I’d show up at his house looking my best, he’d pamper me with dinner and drinks, we’d cuddle and have sex and watch TV together. Hell, we even occasionally went out for dinner or to see a movie. I’d sometimes stay at his house for a couple of days at a time and he’d help me out from time to time with this or that. I mistook all of this for something which could grow into a serious, committed relationship, ignoring the fact that what we had had stagnated at exactly where it was for years. He could be very nice, but he made it perfectly clear he wanted nothing more from me. I kept trying to take things to the next level and he’d get angry and pull away. Astonishingly, I was as confused by this situation as you seem to be, Eve.

    Some men just don’t want commitment or that level of intimacy and emotional investment. These are the men who gravitate towards long-term casual relationships. It’s not that the thought of a committed relationship hasn’t occurred to them; it’s not that they’re waiting with baited breath for you to bring up the topic, and that somewhere, deep down, they’d love to get married. No. They are perfectly happy with the status quo and do not want anything more.

     

    The guy I was involved with doesn’t want commitment. He’d never committed to anyone before me and hasn’t committed to anyone since, despite occasional comments from him that it “would be nice” to settle down. He has brief, superficial relationships which all amount to the same thing – a weekend girlfriend, company and sex when he wants it and being alone when he doesn’t. When the scales finally fell from my eyes and I saw him and the situation for what it really was instead of what I wanted it to be, my feelings of being in love with him diminished with time.

     

    It’s important to see someone as they are, not who you want them to be. Your friend with benefits is just that, and it takes very little for someone to put on a good show when you only see them once a month. Chances are that if you spent significant time together, you might not even like him, let alone want to marry him.

    1. 4.1
      Diana

      Man this a mirror of my situation. My ex bf never wanted more. I thought I could handle it in the beginning  but after 5 years and he still doesn’t want a committed relationship, I have realized with great heartache it isn’t me but him the whole time. He just can’t love me the way I want to be loved. The longer you stay with his terms the more it will eat at you that you want more but aren’t going to get it. It’s time to move on. Wasting your years over someone who isn’t going to make you happy is just horrible for anyone to have to deal with. Life is short. There are more fish in the sea to catch that will be right person for you. Just my 2 cents.

  5. 5
    Yet Another Guy

    I am with Evan on this one.  If Eve’s FWB has not wanted to take things to the next level in twelve years, she is more than likely looking at an ice cubes forming in Hell situation.   A man who wants more from a woman seeks more from a woman.  He is getting want he wants from this arrangement.

    As an aside, I recently read that a women in her fifties has a 12% probability of finding a lover, and that figure drops to 4% for a woman in her sixties.  A lot of this problem stems from the decline in the male population, but there is also a significant reduction in male potency starting around age 50.  We are not talking about erectile dysfunction.  We are talking about a lesser condition known as erectile dissatisfaction, which is due in large part to androgen decline.  Just as women go through the change in life in their fifties, there is a significant drop in total testosterone and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) as the average man nears age 50.  SHBG binds to testosterone reducing free testosterone.  Free testosterone is testosterone that is bioavailable for use by the body.  As testosterone is the hormone that controls libido and libido is what drives men to couple, lower testosterone results in a lower drive for men to couple.   A lot of older men are wrongly being treated for ED when they have condition known as low-T.   This condition requires that man be tested for free testosterone and SHBG in addition to total testosterone.

    1. 5.1
      Yet Another Guy

      *a woman in her fifties

    2. 5.2
      fleurdl123

      Are you saying that Eve should stick around since her odds aren’t good, or are you differentiating lover from boyfriend?  Or, are you saying women in their ’50s should go for younger men or just give up?

      1. 5.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        I actually said two things on my post.  The first was that there is probably a greater probability that ice cubes will form in Hell than Eve has of converting her SOS into a boyfriend.  The second thing had to do with the reality of an age 50+ women finding an age-appropriate sexual partner.

        When I use the word “lover,” I am referring to sexual partner of any kind, be it SOS, FWB, boyfriend, or husband.   It gets more difficult for a woman to find an age-appropriate sexual partner after she crests 50 due in part to female-to-male ratio increasing because men begin to die off in significant numbers at around age 50.   However, 50 is also the age around which men start to go through andropause, which is significant decrease in testosterone coupled with an increase in SHBG, resulting in lower free testosterone.   A lower free testosterone level makes it more difficult for a man to become sexually aroused, which is one of the reasons why older men seek younger age-inappropriate lovers.  It also increases the refractory period (the period of time between orgasms).  Loss of potency is something that many men refuse to discuss with their doctors, so a lot of single men of this age opt out of dating.  It usually takes a caring woman to get a man who is dealing with this problem to discuss it with his doctor.

        With that said, some men have true erectile dysfunction (ED).  ED is caused by the same arterial plaque buildup that causes heart disease, which is why it is considered to be a canary in a coal mine with respect to an impending cardiac event.  Women mistakenly believe that Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra are prescription aphrodisiacs.  These drugs do not give a man a sex drive, nor do they cause a man to get an erection.  They merely remove the impediment to getting an erection, which is diminished blood flow.   Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra  (a.k.a. Vitamin V, C, and L) belong to a class of drugs known as phosphodiesterase type 5  (PDE5) inhibitors.  What PDE5 inhibitors do is affect the smooth muscle cells lining the blood vessels supplying the corpus cavernosum of the penis (i.e., an erection is a complex hydraulic event that starts in the brain).   In a nutshell, PDE5 inhibitors temporarily undo the damage done to the arteries of the penis; thereby, temporarily restoring normal function, often to that of a much younger man.

        The key takeaway from this discussion should be that if a man’s free testosterone level is low and/or he is not into you, it does not matter how many Vitamin V, C, or L tablets he drops because nothing is going to happen in the bedroom.  Testosterone replacement therapy and PDE5 inhibitors should be treated as a means by which to restore a healthy sex life just as a hormone replacement therapy helps women to overcome detrimental effects of menopause such as atrophic vaginitis.  Loss of libido and/or potency is very hard on a man because his sexual prowess is important to him.  As I mentioned above, men who experience this phenomenon tend to withdraw from the dating pool.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          *age 50+ woman

    3. 5.3
      Buck25

      YAG,

      That last part is an interesting aside. Those percentages are about what I observe, both in real life and in my time online. I’d say if anything the percentage might be a little higher for the fifty-something women, but the 4% for the sixty-something ones sounds about right. Now as to the reasons, maybe the “Low-T” comment applies to some of the men in that age group, especially the older end of it; then again, there are some other rather obvious reasons, which I won’t rehash in detail here, because we all know what those are, and they have nothing to do with “Low-T”, or ED, and everything to do with what many (if not most) of us men who are still sexually active find even marginally appealing.

      For you ladies, if this one stings, it’s still a lot nicer than some of the crude jokes and insults flung at men my age on a regular basis by the female set here.  Evan’s LW here was, lest we forget, having whatever you choose to call it, with a man NINE years younger! Remember the comments about men who have the effrontery (oh the horror!) to date women 9, 10 or more years younger? I sure do! Why, how dare they, it’s….it’s ….an insult to womanhood, that’s what it is! Damn misogynists, they should have to date older women, much older! We women wanna get even! Isn’t that right, ladies? I wonder how many of you just love the idea of the younger wife or girlfriend happily cheating with the pool boy or the gardner, while the old codger can’t keep up with her, and is so senile he’s oblivious. That little piece of canard has been trotted out here, with ill-disguised glee, on any number of occasions, but mostly it’s nothing but a cheap female revenge fantasy, like a lot of what passes for plot lines in some of the latest trash Hollywood churns out for your consumption. Enjoy your delusions. Of course, when women brag about screwing guys 20 years younger, (as if that was some great accomplishment; it’s not, it’s just that some younger guys have such bad taste and lack self-respect, to the point they’ll screw anything vaguely female)…*crickets*. Let a man point that out, and he’s “whining”(according to the peanut gallery and our host here).  The only other retort you and Evan can come up with, is “this a blog to help women find relationships/marriage”. Silly me, why, I thought, it was supposed to be about dating in general, and trying to understand each other’s very different agendas,  (don’t KE and other women openly talk about enjoying serial monogamy in relatively short-term relationships, without being slammed because “this blog is only for women looking for marriage/ long term commitment“?  Hmmm, so a woman can say certain things, but a man can’t? Really? Yeah, I’ve had that one slung back, because if you can’t argue with the facts, you have to try to muzzle men who stand up to you, and refuse to play along! Funny how the men who do regularly say what you like for men to say, are mostly…wait for it…MARRIED; what a surprise! Most of the rest are under 45.  I don’t see too many of the fifty and up guys here consistently blowing sunshine up your collective skirts, despite the smirking comments about “MGTOW” whenever one of us dares to differ with what you like to think we believe. That should tell you something, but it rarely does; when we do actually have some empathy with some (emphasis some) of your difficulties, we get damn little of the same for ours. Moral high ground, my aunt Matilda! You have none! What blatant, unambiguous hypocrisy! I’m not whining, I’m laughing at you! Now just to fan the flames a little, cause I’m in a devilish mood tonight, the truth is, that of that 96% of women over sixty who aren’t going to find a lover, the truth is, that most of them probably don’t care anyway, their vaunted post menopausal libido having long since vanished, along with whatever was left of any sex appeal they had (if they ever did-usually, it’s hard to tell, from my POV). That’s not Hollywood B-grade fiction or fantasy, that’s the real world. If it’s any comfort to you, most of them don’t seen to much care (unless, that is, they want a man  for “companionship”-highly over-rated, IMHO, or as a sort of “travel ATM”-I’ll pass on that too).  They never ask what they would bring to the table a man might be interested in, because in most cases, the answer is “not much”, and they know it. That’s reality; the SMV of a woman over sixty, in the real world, is somewhat less than you imagine mine to be, because any good-looking successful guy of say, 50 to 55 , without (and sometimes with, apparently) ED problems,  (of course, a far more desirable catch than a man my age could ever be, according to you) is chasing younger skirts…and enjoying better looks and a lot better sex than any sixty-something women on earth could provide…because he can, and 99% of over 60 women aren’t getting any of that kind of action, much less having a snowball’s chance in hell of keeping it, if you luck out and do. Much to your chagrin, not even all guys my age have to settle for less than desirable older women either, and some of us simply refuse to…because we can. Just remember, we don’t crave relationships the same way you do, and we can get sex, (with younger, reasonably attractive women, yet) which is all we really need, and in some cases, all we really want. After all. we don’t have to appeal to the majority of women 15 , 20 or more years younger than we are; we only have to appeal to a few, and we can always find those few. Whether or not you like that fact,  is completely irrelevant to us. Just as a “for instance”, remember all those threats here, about how you won’t date any man online whose preference is for women much younger than himself (and you)? Well, the last time I was on match, I tried stating that preference openly, and guess what? I still had women(both younger and older) initiating contact with me. Appears maybe the sentiment is not so universal as you wish it was, hmmmm? Besides, if you do feel that way, I would’t want to date you anyway, and that and a far more aggressive profile got rid of most of the ugly and overage women who were clogging up my inbox with profile pics I’d rather not see, in the bargain. Got tired of blocking them, when I could get them to self-select out in the first place! Mission accomplished! Made OLD a lot more palatable, not having to look at pics of 70+ year old hags who disregard male profile preferences (Isn’t that something that makes you highly indignant when men message you, who are well outside your stated age preferences? What makes you think a man likes that any better, when the roles are reversed?) That’s as patently offensive to me, as it is to you. I only message women who indicate my age is within their acceptable range. I have a surprising number to choose from.

      The only thing I regret, is that the worst offenders here when it comes to slamming older men, aren’t in this thread to read this little commentary, but in case any of them show up here (you know who you are), kindly enjoy a little of what you dish out at men on a regular basis, and see how you like getting it right back in your face. Knowing how to play on the other gender’s insecurities is not a skill reserved for women; men can do it too, and you just encountered one who can, and definitely will. Oh, and just because you hate the remark as much as I hate your ignorant “Viagra jokes” (who’s being “sexist” there, again?)….Good luck with your twenty cats! As for Eve, whoever she is, no sympathy from me; she played the game, took her chances and had her fun, until my guess is, she aged herself right out of the process. Goes for both genders; you place your bets, and take your chances. I didn’t invent the game; I’ve just learned to play it as ruthlessly for my own self interest, as women do. No quarter asked, none given.

      1. 5.3.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Buck25

        I must have missed a few interesting threads.   Personally,  sex with women my age has reached the point where it is no longer enticing enough to pay the price of admission.   I am trying to look for other reasons to date women my own age, but I am grasping at straws.  I have many friends who have reached the same point.   I am still not ready to dip my toe into the age-inappropriate pool.

         

        1. KK

          YAG said,

          “Personally,  sex with women my age has reached the point where it is no longer enticing enough to pay the price of admission”.

          And on a recent post YAG also said:

          “She is an extreme extrovert who has a flirty, fun type of personality.  She brings out my jealous/territorial side (i.e., the primal instinct to protect what I believe is mine from other men) in the worst way, which is something that I would rather not have to endure at my age”.

          Is it possible that women are not the problem here? When I read some of your comments, it seems that you are the one who might have some hang ups.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          You do not miss a thing.   That one was definitely an outlier; however, even with her, I did not want to pay the price of admission.    I dated her for seven weeks without having sex, and it was by my choice.  As strong as the chemistry was between us, I had no desire to have sex with her (for me, chemistry and sexual desire are not mutually inclusive).   The women with whom I have had sex since splitting with my ex have been at least ten years my junior.

        3. KK

          You crack me up, YAG.

          “The women with whom I have had sex since splitting with my ex have been at least ten years my junior”.

          “I am still not ready to dip my toe into the age-inappropriate pool”.

          How young is age-inappropriate? Lol.

          “As strong as the chemistry was between us, I had no desire to have sex with her”.

          Sorry, but that’s pretty odd. Especially since you had stated: “She brings out my jealous/territorial side (i.e., the primal instinct to protect what I believe is mine from other men) in the worst way”.

          Typically, I wouldn’t think a man would feel so territorial over a woman with whom he hasn’t had sex and oh… by the way, had no desire to have sex with her. Doesn’t add up.

           

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          KK & YAG,

          I don’t know is it’s so much personal hangups as it is that YAG choses to be with highly emotional girly-girls (the term he uses). He is strongly attracted to them, but then also says he doesn’t want to, and doesn’t see why he should meet their emotional needs.  Of course these entanglements are going to be unsatisfying for both people very quickly.

        5. KK

          I hear ya, GWTF!

          It doesn’t matter if you call it a hang up or just plain old confusion. I just think it’s odd when someone says that women in their age range are the problem but are unable to articulate what they want from any woman.

        6. KK

          IS unable to articulate.

        7. KK

          ISN’T able to articulate. (Dang! More coffee, please! 😉)

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          How young is age-inappropriate? Lol.

          I consider women who are greater than 15 years my junior to be age-inappropriate.

          Sorry, but that’s pretty odd. Especially since you had stated: “She brings out my jealous/territorial side (i.e., the primal instinct to protect what I believe is mine from other men) in the worst way”.

          Typically, I wouldn’t think a man would feel so territorial over a woman with whom he hasn’t had sex and oh… by the way, had no desire to have sex with her. Doesn’t add up.

          I can assure you that I did not have sex with her.  Chemistry and sexual attraction/tension are not mutually inclusive with me.  I have been sexually attracted to and had sex with women with whom I could barely stand to be in the same room (these women outnumber the women with whom I have had chemistry by a large number).  I have had chemistry with women I would never consider knowing in a biblical way.   Sexual attraction is all about primal triggers with me.  It is purely physical.  Chemistry is a mental/emotional thing.  The sad thing is that the women with whom I have had chemistry have been the least interesting sexually.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @KK and GWtF

          It is just that what I want from my lover and what I want from my girlfriend are radically different, almost to be the point of being diametrically opposed.  To be completely honest, I want my lover to be a complete slut; however, I would never consider making a complete slut my girlfriend.  Most “nice girls” who think that they are a complete slut in the bedroom do not come remotely close to accomplishing that objective.

        10. KK

          YAG,

          I’ve always thought of chemistry as an intense (almost primal feeling) sexual attraction (with or without an emotional connection). I think your definition of chemistry is what I would call an emotional connection or emotional attraction by itself.

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          “Most “nice girls” who think that they are a complete slut in the bedroom do not come remotely close to accomplishing that objective.”
          Because they don’t feel empowered by their partner to be fully sexual.  Because. . .

          “I would never consider making a complete slut my girlfriend.”

          Sounds like you have a big Madanna-Whore split.  It’s present in many men, but usually at a low level.  Not to the point where they have problems integrating both the sexual and the companionate in one woman.

        12. Yet Another Guy

          @GWtF

          Sounds like you have a big Madanna-Whore split.

          Is that any different than a woman wanting an alpha male for a lover/romantic interest and a beta male for a partner?  From my personal experience, that preference appears to be the norm.  Nine out of ten times when a women cheats on her partner, she does so with a more aggressive alpha male.  The cold hard reality is that most of us seek one set of attributes in a lover and an entirely different set of attributes in a partner.  Few people are lucky enough find both sets of attributes in one person, so most people exist in unfulfilling relationships.

        13. KK

          “Is that any different than a woman wanting an alpha male for a lover/romantic interest and a beta male for a partner”?

          I think that’s a huge fallacy being touted by certain groups. The alpha / beta dichotomy exists on a spectrum. It’s rare for a man to be 100% alpha or 100% beta. I’ve also noticed that every time I’ve heard a man make the proud proclamation that he is an alpha male, he is anything but. In his mind, being an alpha male is equal to all desirable qualities. In actuality, it’s untrue. Many alpha qualities are very negative. It’s his intense desire to be seen in a positive light that causes him to make that self proclamation, even when it’s untrue.

          Not to mention that alpha is related to financial success. So, which is It? Are women not marrying successful alphas?

          I mentioned something along these lines recently, but I think what you’ve witnessed among (girls who become) women is something much different. Think back to high school. Who did you date or WANT to date? What qualities were important to you? You know what’s important to high school girls? Not much outside of the fact that he’s cute. Why would his grades or ambition matter at that stage of life? Why would his long term goals matter? They don’t. Teens date who they’re attracted to. That’s it. It continues on into the college years and for most, continues after college.

          What you’re witnessing in women is the same exact phenomenon that happens in men. It’s called maturity. Eventually, qualities other than “cute” and “fun” or “popular” matter.

        14. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          The cold hard reality is that most of us seek one set of attributes in a lover and an entirely different set of attributes in a partner.

          I think there’s some truth to this. I wouldn’t go so far as to put it into a slut/nice girl dichotomy, but often the people we are most turned on by make lousy partners.

        15. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          Most women are able to integrate their desire for alpha and beta traits in one man.  A man they respect and who turns them on, who is also supportive and is emotionally available–a nice guys with balls.  Just as most men are able to find a partner that is both supportive and nurturing (madonna qualities) and whom they find sexually attractive (whore qualities).

          It’s not the split that matters, it’s the degree of the split.  If it is total where there is no integration, then you have a man who wants to screw women he wouldn’t be in a relationship with and he’s not sexually aroused by women he considers relationship material.  On the flip side is a woman who is only attracted to men who aren’t good relationship partners because they lack emotional depth and empathy, and they aren’t sexually aroused by men who treat her well and respect her.

          And please, don’t bring in the “women who cheat. . .”  The majority of married women don’t ever cheat.  Of those who do, there is no scientific consensus that “Nine out of ten times when a women cheats on her partner, she does so with a more aggressive alpha male.”  

        16. Buck25

          @ YAG,

          Really? You need to get out more, though that introverted side of you might be somewhat problematic with that. I’m going to agree with GWTF here; you like highly emotional women (I’m fond of the type myself) you have to be willing to deal with the rest of the emotional package. You can’t quite have it both ways, my friend. Same thing with the slut-vs. nice girl thing; except there, you can with time and patience. sometimes get the so-callled nice girl to be a slut in the bed room(true, many of them who try to do that on their own, don’t do as well as they think they do). Start with an open mind on her part, and some patience on yours, and you can sometimes (not always) accomplish the objective desired-BTDT. A real slut (comparatively rare, actually) is sometimes a little easier, in that all you have to do is get her to have a little of a filter when out and about. This is often manageable (I married one of those, once) but bear in mind they are usually pretty extroverted, and that could be  (like your last GF) a bit of a problem for your personality (she’ll tend to exacerbate any jealousy/insecurity in you) . I like the type, but they are emotionally high-maintenance, and require continual attention, and a good bit of leadership on your part, which makes them crazy-makers for any man who doesn’t like to do that.Sounds like you’re attracted to them (hard not to be, for many of us) , but mn not willing to invest in that maintenance I mentioned, Put another way, a Ferrari is a thrill to drive, completely responsive, if temperamental and a bit twitchy, and will carve up a road circuit like a scalpel (in the right hands), but you need to go to racing school to learn how to handle her, spend a lot of time practicing what you learned, and then you’ll spend a lot of time “under the hood” to keep her even running, much less performing at peak. A Ford pickup isn’t near the thrill,  and the handling is rather slow and staid, but it’s predictable, starts every time,  even a lousy driver can drive her, and about all you have to do, is gas her up and change the oil occasionally. Your choice. Just as an aside, my uncle (no slouch as a ladies man himself), once told me that liquor, fast cars and fast women are all alike; all three are expensive, all three are too much for the average guy to handle, and all three will kill any man, sooner or later!

        17. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Not to mention that alpha is related to financial success. So, which is It? Are women not marrying successful alphas?

          Who told you that being an alpha male had anything to do with financial success?  Being an alpha means being a leader, nothing more, nothing less (as in leader of a wolf pack).  It has zero to do with how much money he earns.  If men look up to/seek to emulate a man, he is by definition an alpha.  You are correct that a lot of alpha traits are not positive.  An alpha male is used to getting his way, which may get in the way in relationships.

          I am actually what is being referred to lately as a sigma male.  A sigma male is a introverted alpha. A sigma male is an alpha male’s worst nightmare.  We do not follow, nor do desire to lead.  We have no desire to be part of a social pack.  We are lone wolves.  Alphas tend to steer clear of us because we are usually smarter than they are and they know it.  We also tend to be physically intimidating, or at least not easily physically intimidated.  Sigma males tend to fall into two Myers-Briggs personality types; namely, INTP and INTJ.  I am an INTP.

        18. Buck25

          @ KK,

          You’re mostly y correct on the alpha/beta thing. It definitely a is a continuum, and most personalities are between the two poles. You can for instance, get a mostly beta male with some alpha traits, or a mostly alpha man with a few beta traits, and just to complicate matters, there are other important traits which are neither alpha or beats in themselves (intelligence, both intellectual or emotional). The terms have been badly  misused, with alpha being”the perfect man” and beta being “the perfect wuss” , which is not true. A beta is simply a male with more feminine energy than masculine. What makes him irritating to most women (and a lot of men) is that he tends to be too easy-going,  is a supplicant (especially in dealing with women, where he frequently lacks a spine), and usually lacks self-confidence. At his worst, he’s passive aggressive and highly manipulative (though not highly skilled at the latter). He tends to be, (but is not necessarily), a bit “soft”,  is frequently indecisive, and lacks an edge. On the positive side though, he usually has more empathy and compassion, is more patient, and he’s typically unaggressive. He’s more willing to compromise and negotiate, generally.. At the other end of the scale, we have the alpha type. Most of his energy is masculine, sometimes overwhelmingly so. He tend to be rigid, perfectionistic, dominant, and driven. He is frequently an adrenaline junkie, which can make him impulsive and even rash in his decision making. He’s testosterone-fueled, and an be very aggressive (if he lacks intelligence and self discipline, his default response to anything that remotely threatens him is physical violence). I should note here, that some betas can also be violent, especially those passive-aggressive types with a lot of pent up rage which they’re afraid to release in healthier ways.

          Both types can be either introverts or extroverts. There really are extroverted betas, though usually not at the far end of the spectrum) and there are introverted alphas, usually the more cerebral,  reflective types, and not the extreme ones.

          One problem comes in with most people conflating an alpha personality type, with what I call “social alphas”. Typically tall, good-looking, often athletic, with some cockiness and superficial charm, these guys are the ones who never failed with girls early on. They have a sort of confidence that comes simply from never having been challenged or defeated, as few of them are until later in life; often because of sheer physical size. Ironically some of them are quite  weak, emotionally and physically speaking; more than a few of of them, never having been really tested, lack resilience, or true confidence; they are not “battle hardened”. I’ve seen quite a few of the species whose only real skill is picking up women, and damn little else. Not particularly intelligent, not very self-aware either, and no real leadership ability; a lot of these guys couldn’t lead a troop of Girl Scouts on a Sunday day hike. Ultimately some of them fail in most every other area of life; quite literally “one-trick ponies”. A lot of the rest, finally get passed, and then run over by the less “socially advantaged” but smarter, more versatile,  more disciplined and driven alpha types, and sometimes as values and priorities change, and the latter grow, those driven alphas rise above them with women as well.

          I think we can say that neither a total beta nor a total alpha is the best possible thing a man can be. Neither extreme, or close to it, is what we could call a balanced man. Too much beta, and a man is weak, ineffectual and lacks spine and leadership; too introspective and unconfident for his own good, and often insecure. Too much alpha,  and a man is too overbearing and domineering, too arrogant, over-confident, lacking in self-awareness,  lacking in empathy and prone to over-aggression and acting in a bullying fashion with others, often without even realizing it. A driven alpha guy can be so much “all he can be” until someone needs to tell him to “try being a little less” (that last can be a personal weakness of mine). The hardest thing for a man to pull off in this life, is actually being really balanced, but that’s closer to the ideal to strive for, I believe.

          I think there are reasons,  (other than the manosphere) as to why we keep using the alpha vs. beta paradigm. Part of it is related to the socialization of the younger generations of men, who maybe got some unintentionally less than ideal programming. We baby boomer men tend to be a bit more masculine in many ways, simply because, as we discussed in other thread, we simply grew up in a very different environment. Not to say all we got from that is ideal; some of it is not. I wish we could stop with the concept that a man has to be either a complete wuss, or a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal. It’s convenient shorthand, but like a lot of convenient shorthand, it leaves something to be desired, without explication.

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Nicole

          I am in my mid-fifties.  I noticed a significant drop in my libido after I crested age 50, which is why I researched the subject.  It is not that I no longer have a libido.  It is that my libido no longer owns me like it did when I was a younger man (it used to be so high that I would do or say whatever it took).  More importantly,  I also no longer get the rush from having sex that I did when I was a younger man.  It is no longer the pleasure center that it was when I was a younger man; therefore, I have less desire to put forth the effort required to get sex.  For most men, lower sex drive translates to lower desire to date.  I do not know if the same dynamic plays out with women, but women suffer reduced sex drive after age 50 at a much higher rate than men, so I would assume that desire falls off for women as well.

      2. 5.3.2
        Emily, the original

        Buck25,

        Isn’t that right, ladies? I wonder how many of you just love the idea of the younger wife or girlfriend happily cheating with the pool boy or the gardner, while the old codger can’t keep up with her, and is so senile he’s oblivious. That little piece of canard has been trotted out here, with ill-disguised glee, on any number of occasions, but mostly it’s nothing but a cheap female revenge fantasy,

        The rest of the fantasy involves the woman inheriting the old man’s money after he dies and then spending it on the pool boy.

        1. KK

          “The rest of the fantasy involves the woman inheriting the old man’s money after he dies and then spending it on the pool boy”.

          LOL 😉

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck & Emily,

          Last time I personally came across a couple where the man was much older than his bride, it was a full on internet/mail order bride situation.  The bride was mid 20’s from southeast Asia, the husband 20+ years older, and I kid you not, obese with missing teeth.  They had a toddler son together.

          She had a ginormous boob job done and then no-showed two post op appointments.  She wasn’t returning messages, and her cell phone seemed to be turned off.  Finally the staff contacted the husband.  Turns out, as soon as the wife healed up from her surgery she took the kid and her new boobs and ran off with a man her age from her native country (with his own permanent green card).

          Yes Buck we all got a chuckle out of if.  The behavior of these two cynical and manipulative individuals played out according to the stereotype.  The way I look at it, people really do reap what they sow!

        3. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          The bride was mid 20’s from southeast Asia, the husband 20+ years older, and I kid you not, obese with missing teeth.  They had a toddler son together.

          What I don’t understand is why these much older guys seem shocked when they find out their much younger wives are cheating and/or married them only for their money. I’m not advocating infidelity or greed, but isn’t this kind of marriage sometimes an exchange of commodities? Youth/beauty  for money/comfort?

        4. Buck25

          Emily,

          Yeah, we get that part too.  Still a fantasy, though. Yuu’d be amazed at the provisions  us old farts know how to put in a will that preclude that part of it. See, there’s always two wills. The one she sees, and the other, dated later, (the real one) sitting in a safe at the attorney’s office, with instructions. After all you think we got that old by being that stupid?

        5. KK

          Emily,

          That’s the disconnect. Quality women are not going to be waiting with baited breath for a guy 20+ years older. Only gold diggers are going to be willing to take that on. If these guys are really shocked, they’re really eh.. um.. Not smart.

        6. GoWiththeFlow

          Emily,

          “. . . isn’t this kind of marriage sometimes an exchange of commodities? Youth/beauty  for money/comfort?”

          Completely agree.  Sometimes it works for both people.  Sometimes not so much.

          Since you also follow Hooking Up Smart, here is Walsh’s post on the dynamics of relationships where there is a large age gap.  I’m sure you’ve seen if before, but it’s a good one!

          What Do Women Find Attractive About Older Men?

           

        7. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          The one she sees, and the other, dated later, (the real one) sitting in a safe at the attorney’s office, with instructions. After all you think we got that old by being that stupid?

          Doesn’t matter. A woman can still blow through a lot of money when the old man is alive. And if she’s smart, she’s stealthily stowing some of it away. How easy it must be to sprinkle a few sleeping pills in his drink at dinner, steal his Ferrari and go visit the pool boy.

        8. Buck25

          GWTF,

          One word here: “Prenup “. Works wonders, when drawn by a really good attorney (at least in my state) As of the mail-order bride bit, most of us have better sense. Then again, we aren’t obese or missing half our teeth either. Then too, an older, successful man, should he just want some easy sex, can hit the bar scene, and pick up something a lot more attractive than his typical online age-peer fare ( and I don’t mean hookers) with relative ease. PUA techniques exist for a reason; the canned lines don’t usually work but the tactics do, and often pretty well if carried off with the right attitude. You don’t think it’s possible for an intelligent man to outthink, outwit, and emotionally manipulate his much younger female counterpart? Sure, it’s often relatively mediocre sex (with some notable exceptions), but still much better than I’ve ever had from a 60 + year old woman (assuming I ever wanted any from one, which has been honestly damned rare) . I’ve never been a man to want to go to bed with any woman I wouldn’t want to look at in the morning, unless I was intoxicated, a state I avoid these days (hangovers hurt more than I recall they used to), and the sight of waking to any of the 60+  year old women I find in this area these days,  first thing in the morning, would induce instant nausea, and that’s not a joke; I find them physically repulsive.

        9. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck,

          Of course individual experience varies.  It also depends upon what each person is aiming for a, ONS-leave-immediately-when-done all the way up to marriage.  For instance, although neither you or YAG apparently appreciate women over a certain age, the LW at 62 is in a sexual relationship with a younger man, and it has been satisfying for several years.  Sounds like she dated other men during this time too, whom I assume found her acceptably attractive.

          As for older men being able to manipulate much younger women? It happens all the time.  But like the dentally deficient international bride shopper I mentioned above, who I’m sure thought he had played everything just right, sometimes the women beat the men at the game.

          You mentioned prenups?  One young bride-to-be I knew got violently ill and threw up all over her finance’s car when they were on the way to the lawyer’s office to sign the paperwork.  They wound up leaving for their destination wedding later that night and the prenup never was signed.  She has embezzled large sums of money from his medical practice.  He knows, but won’t do anything about it.  So they sleep in separate bedrooms and and she screams at him in the office that he’s disgusting and stupid.  He doesn’t want the humiliation of his ex-wife knowing that the pretty young thing he left her for treats him that way.  I’m pretty sure the ex knows anyway, but I don’t think she cares much.  She got remarried to a pilot a few years back and is busy with their blended family.

          Some people do better in the dating and mating scene, others do worse, all throughout the adult life span.  So if it’s hateful and foolish for women to call “mature” men old codgers who don’t know when they’re under the spell of young gold diggers, it’s just as hateful and foolish for men to assume that women past a certain age aren’t getting any sincere male attention.

          Happy hunting 😉

        10. KK

          Buck said, “I’ve never been a man to want to go to bed with any woman I wouldn’t want to look at in the morning, unless I was intoxicated, a state I avoid these days (hangovers hurt more than I recall they used to), and the sight of waking to any of the 60+  year old women I find in this area these days,  first thing in the morning, would induce instant nausea, and that’s not a joke; I find them physically repulsive”.

          Here’s the catch. Women do not find men who are 20 years older attractive. Most would be physically repulsed at the thought of having sex with someone that much older.

          I used to live next door to an older couple that I absolutely adored. They were closer to my parent’s age, but I thought of the husband as a grandfatherly type. He was so kind, always offering to help me with little things or warning me to be careful. I really adored and respected him. One day when I was getting something out of my car, I overheard him and his buddy talking about my ass. I was not only grossed out but completely horrified. The point is most of us do not think of men 20+ years older in a sexual way.

          I guess if you’re okay with that, fine. I just don’t understand it. I wouldn’t want to be with anyone who wasn’t attracted to me.

    4. 5.4
      GoWiththeFlow

      YAG,

      “I recently read that a women in her fifties has a 12% probability of finding a lover, and that figure drops to 4% for a woman in her sixties.”

      Please link the study that showed this.

      1. 5.4.1
        Yet Another Guy.

        I originally encountered the claim as a response in the blog entry linked below; however, I did manage to find the original source after quite a bit of searching.  I need to see if I can locate the source because it is difficult to believe.  I would not have believed claim in the first place had it not been posted by a woman.

        Dating in your 50’s – Easy for Men… Not so much for Women!

  6. 6
    Malika

    Talking about your feelings with him cannot hurt. If nothing else, it can make the situation crystal clear, and you can take the steps that are required in order to get what you want. Maybe we are all wrong, and he would like a different kind of relationship, but he thinks you are perfectly content with the status quo.

    But i wouldn’t hold my breath. I believe if he had any greater feelings for you he would have manned up and told you so. If  he wanted more from you but did nothing about it, he was running the great risk of you finding someone else and thanking him for the memories. So i would just get out of that FWB and start dating other men. There are more than enough single men out there looking for more, you just need to be active about meeting them.

    I had a few FWB in my twenties, and they were great fun, but i eschew getting into them nowadays, and vamooze when i see the signs of it developing with a man i am dating. They become an enticing comfort zone, which can prevent you from putting yourself out there and dating men with potential. As YAG once said (and i have memorized it as a constant reminder) you should be either his prima donna or  nothing at all.

    1. 6.1
      Clare

      Malika,

       

      “They become an enticing comfort zone, which can prevent you from putting yourself out there and dating men with potential. As YAG once said (and i have memorized it as a constant reminder) you should be either his prima donna or  nothing at all.”

       

      Thank you so much for this! Good reminder for me 🙂

    2. 6.2
      Yet Another Guy

      That is a fact.  Whether she realizes it or not, Eve is currently more of a sexy-on-standby (SOS) than an FWB with this man.   The status of FWB requires the establishment of a friendship that goes beyond sex (an FWB is a true friend with whom one occasionally has sex, but sex is not the primary reason for the friendship).  As I mentioned in previous postings, an SOS is a woman with whom a man hooks up when his prime date falls short or he is not dating anyone.  She is a woman of convenience whose interest he exploits for his sexual needs and/or emotional support.  If a man keeps coming back to a woman between girlfriends without committing, odds are that she is an SOS, a woman held in reserve for when times are lean.  A man does not have wine and dine an SOS.  She gives freely to him because she is hoping that he will eventually see the light.  If a woman desires a relationship with a man, she needs to make it clear that she holds first lady (prima donna) status with him or nothing at all (ideally, it is first and only lady status 🙂 ).  If he balks at the idea, she has her answer.  More often than not, a man will respect a woman more for placing that demand on him.  The move will definitely sort the wheat from the chaff.   There is more than grain of truth behind the saying that men marry bitches.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m familiar. I just think the terminology matters.

        2. Henriette

          Thank you, Evan.

        3. Buck25

          Evan, whatever the term, it still stands. What YAG calls “SOS” is simply a logical consequence when a woman confuses sex as an attractant which may lead a guy to find something in her worthy of commitment, with the idea that sex is the currency with which she can in effect buy (or coerce) commitment, eventually. Doesn’t work that way; unfortunately, too many women believe otherwise.

      1. 6.2.2
        Kenley

        I am curious to understand why you don’t think that he was the SOS for her — prior to her wanting to change the relationship.   Sometimes women just want men for sex too.   It feels like you are implying that for the 12 years of their relationship, she was being used and that he was dictating the rules of engagement.   Why is that your interpretation?  Maybe neither of them were being used.    Maybe they both were getting just what they wanted at the time.  Maybe they were just two adults who liked spending time together and liked having sex with each other.   Nothing more.  Nothing less.  I am not sure the fact that she wants more now means that she always wanted more which is what you seem to be implying.

        1. Emily, the original

          Kenley,

          Sometimes women just want men for sex too.

          Yes. Women can experience these situations the same way many men do — the sex is convenient, better than nothing, and she doesn’t like the guy enough to want more.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          I am not implying that Eve’s lover was not an SOS for her. What I am implying is that what they have is not an FWB arrangement.  FWB is one of the most abused terms in dating.   FWBs are friends who occasionally have sex, but they are first and foremost friends whose friendship is not based on sex.   What Eve has is little more than low-effort, convenience sex that occurs when neither person is dating someone with potential.  That is by definition SOS sex.

        3. Buck25

          @ YAG

          FWB is one of the most abused terms in dating”

          Nailed it!

        4. Buck25

          Kelley,

          Fair point. We really don’t know, do we. Some of Eve’s comments suggest wh she might have at least started out that ay, or maybe it was just another exercise in mutual using. In the end though, I don’t know that it much matters; at some point her agenda changed and his apparently did not. Why? Age maybe,; maybe just a lack of other viable sexual partners (as she alluded to). From her standpoint, I don’t know that the why ultimately matters as much as the current status of whatever you call the relationship, and what she wants from it nowThat seems to be the real starting point of this discussion.

    3. 6.3
      Emily, the original

      Malika

      Talking about your feelings with him cannot hurt. If nothing else, it can make the situation crystal clear, and you can take the steps that are required in order to get what you want.

      Have you ever had the conversation with someone? You divulge your feelings in hopes it will free him to divulge his … and you get a stony, painful silence. If the OP wants to talk to this guy, she can, but it’s been my experience that if you have to ask for clarification, you already know the answer.

      1. 6.3.1
        Stacy2

        if you have to ask for clarification, you already know the answer.

        ^^ that. What Emily said.

        1. Emily, the original

          There’s a great song by Madonna (appropriately titled) “Waiting” that sums it up: Well, I know from experience
          That if you have to ask for something more than once or twice
          It wasn’t yours in the first place

      2. 6.3.2
        Malika

        Well… I remember quite a few times! And a few of them were actually very necessary and were the gateway to a relationship.

        But why i think the letter writer should have the talk is so that things are clarified for her, so she knows that that door is closed and she can move on. Stranger things have happened, he could suddenly declare his love, but it’s more likely it will galvanize her into dating someone else.

        1. Just saying

          Only if she is someone who simply cannot move on, and will continue to harbour hopes and fantasies unless slapped hard on the face with the reality of him overtly rejecting her.

          The danger here is that he won’t, but will be equivocal or prevaricating because most men, in the best case scenario don’t want to be mean and horrible. In the worst case scenario, they simply remain ambiguous to string a woman along for longer as a sex buddy. If his response is anything but an enthusiastic Hell Yes ! she will need to bail

          But of course, women delude themselves into thinking “there is always hope” and hanging to the threadbarest of “maybes” as a potential Yes down the track. Dream on, ladies.

        2. Stacy2

          While this sounds nice in theory it is very hard to execute in practice. This guy likes the arrangement he’s in, so he is likely say just enough to protect the status quo. He may be ambiguous, or worst case he may give her false hope while never actually intending to follow through – because people are selfish and in his own time of emotional need he’d like to have someone to talk to and to cuddle up to, but he doesn’t necessarily want to reciprocate. So, she will delude herself into thinking that “this time is different”, will allow herself to be vulnerable and get attached and only to have her heart broken. Who needs this shit?

        3. Malika

          Gotcha, if he’s less than trustworthy he’ll hum, haw and maybe in the future talk his way out of it. Guess what? That is also an answer! Unless it’s an omg you are amazing yesyesyes, it’s time to get your ass out of there. No, he does not need time to think about it. It’s done! And now it’s time to update that OKC profile.

      3. 6.3.3
        Just saying

        Yup. Men speak mightily with their actions. If he was in any way inclined to view her as potentially more than a sex buddy, he would already have initiatived the conversation a long time ago. He would not have cared that she was putting career first, he would have pushed her on the matter. That he didn’t says a lot about his “feelings” or lack thereof.

        1. Stacy2

          Men speak mightily with their actions

          Honestly, so do women. No amount of talking is ever going to make another person love you more or feel more passionate about it than they already do.

  7. 7
    Stacia

    Eve, I would bet money that if you share how you feel and he’s not interested in a relationship, he’ll be fine to continue things the way they are.  I don’t think you’ll lose that part, since he’s been content with it for 12 years.  However, if he’s not interested, will YOU feel okay continuing with the status quo after revealing your feelings?  Either way, it may be better to speak up.  You will have an answer, instead of just wondering.

  8. 8
    Stacy2

    This letter, btw, is the exhibit A of why the long-term SOS arrangement is a bad deal for a woman all around. It is hard for us to not develop deeper feelings for someone if we like them, enjoy time together and sex is good. Next thing you know, you think that he “cares about you” or “is your friend” or “where is this going” or “can i turn that into something else”, where all he’s thinking “i’d tap it again next week!”. Ladies, if you’re not in a relationship and horny do yourself a favor – find the biggest dick available on craigslist that day, uber him in, uber him out, go to dinner with your girlfriends and never see that guy again. There’s plenty where he came from, no need to be attached.

    1. 8.1
      Yet Another Guy.

      I personally do not see why a woman needs a man for sexual release. Women have an arsenal of toys at their disposal that make men jealous.  Now, there are even male robots. 🙂

      1. 8.1.1
        Malika

        Some women would rather have the real thing and take their chances on being able to handle it. Dating in the modern world is tough at any age, and i honestly think that the illusion of choice that OLD gives makes it so that you can go for years without having sex with someone you have a meaningful connection with. I personally would rather arrange my own sexual release and steer clear of any casual set ups, as they are also not worth the price of admission for me. But that is not a sacrifice that everyone is willing to make.

    2. 8.2
      Malika

      While that would not be my personal choice, Stacy’s is THE solution for if you’re feeling sex deprived. FWB’s/SOS’s or however you want to call it are not worth it if you are the type that attaches after good sex. The men often want a greater investment than just you coming round for a couple of hours. Before you know it, additional roles start to creep in. You are the sounding board, the therapist  and the +2 he takes to work parties. It eats up time and effort for a relationship that is ultimately going nowhere. You are Ms This will do until the right girl comes along, and then it’s time to say goodbye. Right girl? She gets the commitment, attention, dates, trips to foreign countries and ring on it. You? Are back on the dating market after spending a few years in limbo.

      If you are the type that does not attach? It’s amazing, you are amazing, go get it girl/boy etc. For the rest? Short term dating, Craigslist, vibrator or all three. Your sanity will thank you for it.

      1. 8.2.1
        Henriette

        “Amen!” to everything Malika wrote.

      2. 8.2.2
        Stacy2

        Yup, exactly~! Men love-love-love the “auxiliary services”, you’re the shoulder to cry on and an occasional dinner companion – when his schedule permits that is – and all those other things, and they manage to do all that while investing zero emotionally. Thanks but no thanks, me thinks. If the primary purpose of the arrangement is sex, there should be no intimacy, no talks, no activities out of bed. He’s in, he’s out, he’s history. 🙂

        1. Emily, the original

          Stacy2

          If the primary purpose of the arrangement is sex, there should be no intimacy, no talks, no activities out of bed. He’s in, he’s out, he’s history.

          I agree. You get down to it, and then it’s “Thank you, drive thru.” The more time a woman spends with a man, the higher likelihood she’ll get attached.

      3. 8.2.3
        Stacy

        @Malika

        I agree with everything you said. I would never do a FWB. Personally, I feel it devalues me although I can’t speak for every woman. I can achieve my own orgasms and was never THAT pressed for sex where I just had to have a  man (although I do have a high sex drive overall). So if he doesn’t want to be all in, he is not GETTING in. Most women attach after sex so it’s just never a good deal all around.

  9. 9
    Tron Swanson

    People think of FWBs being a short-term thing, but I’ve been in some long-term FWB situations. A few of them have been consistent, but most have been off and on. The woman would get into a relationship, or even get married, and we’d stop until it was over. These breaks could last months, years, and even a decade, in one case. In our modern, friends-oriented culture, friendships tend to last longer than relationships, so it makes sense to sexualize the former and ignore the latter.

    Obviously, I don’t recommend trying to change people, or waiting for them to change. In my experience, people either never change, or they change in a way that never could have been controlled or guided. It’s a waste of time to try to keep someone the same or change them.

  10. 10
    Stacy

    This is why I advocate women settling down before they get older (IF they can control it).

    I was married once before for 4 years. Got divorced when I was around 32. Now I am single again and will settle down and find my next husband while I can draw the attention that I am still getting. My boyfriend is a couple of years younger and a 24 year old hit on me today and decided to walk me to my fitness class espousing the ideas of why I should give him a chance trying to convince me how he is ‘so mature’ for his age and would love to take me to dinner. I didn’t know if to feel flattered or disgusted. But while my SMV is still fairly high because of the way I look although I am older, I am looking for husband #2. When women start to push 50 and beyond, all these problems start to occur (older men dying off quicker, many don’t physically take care of themselves, and the ones who do, look for women way younger than they are). The dating scene is horrible for an older woman unless she looks like Heidi Klum.

    1. 10.1
      Marika

      Stacy 

      I honestly believe that some of the more vocal male commenters on here give a false impression of how superficial men are. I don’t know about you, but most men I know in real life aren’t chasing after the hottest, youngest woman they can get, but are with people around their same age and level of attractiveness.

      Besides, I feel like this way of thinking keeps women in their 30s (me included) in bad relationships for too long, in the mistaken belief that it’s him or no one.

      1. 10.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Markia,

        Most men I know in real life aren’t chasing after the hottest, youngest woman they can get, but are with people around their same age and level of attractiveness.

        Yes. Most people partner up with someone of similar level of attractiveness, education level and age.

      2. 10.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Marika

        I can assure you that men start to chase younger women around age 45 +/- a few years.  That is when middle-age craziness tends to hit a man the worst way.  I do not know a single non-attached man my age who dates women +/- a couple of years of his own age.  Most of the single men I know date women who are at least five years their junior with many dating women more than ten years their junior.  I was routinely dating women between ten and fifteen years my junior until Barbara took me to task for not considering women my own age.   I, like most of my friends, prefer premenopausal women.  Menopause tends to wreak havoc on a woman’s skin, which makes a woman look old.

         

        1. Marika

          YAG

          You and your friends are welcome to chase 18 year olds if you like. But statistically most people end up partnering with people around their same age. That’s the point.

          Also, you should read the article GWTF posted above. You seem to want a much younger woman who is also highly educated (as per your comments on another post). The article points out that a less educated woman is most likely to give a much older man a chance. So you may want to open your search to ‘high school’ if you want a much younger woman. Or be a bit flexible on the age thing.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          You and your friends are welcome to chase 18 year olds if you like.

          I am a mid-fifitysomething.  Most of my friends are also in their fifties.  I can assure you that none of us are attempting to chase 18-year-old women.  That is just sick.  For me, significantly younger is mid-to-late thirties.  Younger means forties (trust me, there is a huge difference between a mid-fortysomething woman’s skin and a mid-fiftysomething woman’s skin due to the loss of estradiol during menopause).  I do not have much interest in dating thirtysomething women.    However, I do routinely date fortysomething women.  My one and only ex is fortysomething, so it is not like I am trading a peer wife for a younger model.   I have teenage children who are my only children.

           

        3. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Younger means forties (trust me, there is a huge difference between a mid-fortysomething woman’s skin and a mid-fiftysomething woman’s skin due to the loss of estradiol during menopause).

          Same thing happens with a man’s rear end.

           

      3. 10.1.3
        Buck25

        Marika,

        Just to set the record straight,  I don’t generally date ( or do one night stands with) women under 45 or so anymore ( I have a few times in the past, mostly out of opportunity, not a deliberate effort to seek them out). Yes, that’s still a big age difference, partly for sex appeal and partly for reasons I explained below, but I’m not out there actively looking for women in their thirties, either. I’m pretty ok with an attractive woman 55 or below.

        1. Marika

          My comments were to YAG, not you, Buck. But from memory you’re 70ish? And the oldest woman you’ll date is 55..?

          Like YAG, date whoever you like. But if you’re going to be that ageist, you can’t complain if women stop giving you the time of day in a year or two, or if most women 55 and below aren’t into you and are looking for someone much closer to their age.

          And you also can’t complain if these women turn out to be interested in you for your money. The vast majority of research shows that most people partner with people around their own age. That way there’s less of a power imbalance or people using each other for age, status, soft skin, money etc. You can trade off age for other things, but it’s not the smartest path to love.

        2. Buck25

          Marika,

          First of all,  who said anything about me searching for love (in a relationship sense)? I’m 68, almost 69 now. The women of my generation, largely for reasons I outlined below, are part of my past and that’s where I’ll leave them; I refuse to let them into my present.  There’s just no reason to. Now, I’m not so stupid as to believe that most, if any women under that age would have any interest in a relationship with me, other than for money/security, and I don’t blame them for that, nor am I complaining. It’s to be expected; dating and mating is fundamentally a selfish enterprise, for either gender. Men and women alike are out here to get as much of what they want as they can, not to help anyone else get theirs. No reason to be angry with women about that; it’s not right or wrong, it just is. A little frustrating? Sure, but there’s no changing it, on either side.

          Reality for me, Marika, is that love is not something I’m likely going to find, at this point in my life; that’s not a very unrealistic expectation. About all I can expect, is to get sex while I can still enjoy it (that’s manageable) and enjoy whatever companionship I get from the somewhat younger “just friends” (quite literally) women I have around me. The time for love (in the romantic sense) is past. I’ve had my chances, and once, a long, long time ago (maybe before you were even born) I’ve experienced that sort of it only a few ever get to. It was a beautiful, more incredible than I could have ever imagined kind of love, but it came at the wrong time and circumstance in my life, and so, it ended. I’ve never loved, or been loved, like that again, not in two marriages, and a number of relationships since then; I’ve never held a one of them close, closed my eyes, and not seen her face. If you ever loved anyone like that, you’ll understand, and if you haven’t, well, I hope someday, you get to. I guess maybe she felt the same way. I didn’t find out until very recently that she passed away four years ago; she never married. Maybe it’s really true that we get just one chance in a lifetime for that; I don’t know. Looks like that’s true for me, though, and maybe it was for her too.

          So, I suppose, I’ll take whatever lesser things I can get for now, for the time I have left, and disregard the rest. Those dire warnings about dying alone? I won’t, you know, just like I hope she didn’t. I won’t, because I know the last thing my mind will see, before it passes into nothingness, is her; and you know, maybe that’s the way it should be after all. In the words of an old song from before your time, “one time and one time only, one time, for all the time it will be”.

        3. Chance

          Hi Buck25,

           

          I don’t blame you for not wanting to get involved with a woman your age, especially as it relates to marriage.  For someone in your current position, it doesn’t come even remotely close to passing a cost/benefit analysis.  I know that there are women here who like to illustrate, with sordid details, the often ignominious outcomes of marriages between affluent older men and young women, which can often be accurate.  However, these women conveniently omit the fact that the same garbage often happens when these men marry women their own age.  Too many women that age want a travel “partner”, but want you to pay for it…. with no (or low quality) sex in return.  Too many of these women want you to transfer your accumulated wealth so that it can be inherited by them as opposed to your children.  Then, there’s the emotional abuse, psychological manipulation, blatant lack of regard for your deteriorating health, etc.

           

          Are all women like this?  Of course not, but this nonsense can happen just as easily if you marry an older woman who is your age.

        4. Stacy2

          As an aside, Buck25 is the same age as my parents, who I’me very close with. They’ve been together for over 40 years now and theirs is a strong marriage, but even they have their fights and moments when it seems they’re not exactly making each other happy. I love my dad to pieces but sometimes it seems that he’s making my mom miserable. So, I can’t even imagine how any of them would do any “dating” – frankly even a thought of that makes me feel weird. It just seems that at that age, you kinda stay with the partner you’ve shared you life together with, but even if they make you somewhat miserable than a new one would be a total disaster so not worth it! Especially for a woman. Though, my mom gets hit on a lot by men her age and close – and she enjoys the attention, lol, which is making my dad tremendously jealous. But i think any real “dating” at that age would be simply insufferable!! No, when I am 70 i am stuffing my face with carrot cake (waistline be damned), minding my garden and watching TV with my cat in peace, that’s my plan. Men can take their demands and drama elsewhere at that point.

        5. Buck25

          @ Chance,

          “…but this nonsense can happen just as easily if you marry an older woman who is your age.”

          Quite true. Which does lead one to ask why the ladies here never regale us with any tales of THAT (can’t recall a single woman here even mentioning so much as ONE of those)? I doubt though, that it’s from compete lack of awareness that those situations do occur, and rather often too. Then again, I doubt any of their reciting of those tales of woe involving older men and younger women comes from any tender solicitude or real concern for the financial or emotional well-being of older men. As I said, it is a game of self-interest, and one can hardly blame them for serving their own as they perceive it. After all, any older man dating (or even marrying) a younger woman, is one less available to older women, something each of them will be, one day. It is therefore in their perceived best interest to do all they can to discourage that particular male behavior. I would hazard a guess, that the fact that an older woman may ill-use an older man, as readily as a younger woman can, is of no concern to them. After all, an older woman behaving badly toward any man is no threat to any woman, of whatever age; whereas the much younger woman (ill-intended or not) poaching on older women’s turf, most certainly is, and therefore she must be a villainess, and a predator (or so men must be made to believe).

          Whether it’s as well or better for us to be hanged for a sheep as a lamb, is not a question women have an interest in us pondering. Better for their long-term interest to hint to us that one option is totally safe, and the other invariably fatal.

        6. Buck25

          @ Stacy2

          “No, when I am 70, I will be stuffing my face with carrot cake (waistline be damned), minding my garden and watching TV with my cat in peace, that’s my plan. Men can take their demands and drama elsewhere, at that point.”

          Thank you, my dear, for so nicely illustrating just what a single man my age can expect to see brought to the table by single women of the same vintage. I can find a few thousand such female specimens of that exact attitude and comparable age on Match any day of the week. As a matter of fact, it’s pretty hard to find anything else, except the same, who also would like to have a man to bankroll her travel fantasies, in return for which he can expect to receive… (drumroll, please) the rest of the attitude Stacy here has conveyed to us, which is to say…well, NOTHING! Nice work if you can get it, ladies (for you, anyway), but excuse me for being, well, considerably underwhelmed. You know, when there’s nothing in the bargain for me, I just can’t see the point in the enterprise.

        7. KK

          “…but this nonsense can happen just as easily if you marry an older woman who is your age.”              Quite true. Which does lead one to ask why the ladies here never regale us with any tales of THAT (can’t recall a single woman here even mentioning so much as ONE of those)?”

          Buck25,

          That wasn’t the topic of discussion. Quite honestly, there’s no reason for the ladies to warn against dating women your own age who might possibly be character deficient because there’s always at least that one commenter that will let everyone know how completely terrible women are.

          “Then again, I doubt any of their reciting of those tales of woe involving older men and younger women comes from any tender solicitude or real concern for the financial or emotional well-being of older men”.

          Actually, I have a cousin who became very bitter after his divorce and ended up in a relationship with a much younger woman. I warned him. Quite a few of us did; including some of his… wait for it… guy friends (shocking, huh?) Predictably, he didn’t listen and got burned even worse than the first time.

          “Better for their long-term interest to hint to us that one option is totally safe, and the other invariably fatal”.

          There will ALWAYS be men interested in dating women in their age range.

          Two of my friend’s dads remarried much younger women. One was the same age as his daughter. The other married a woman several years younger than his daughter. This caused so much unnecessary hurt, drama, and embarrassment (in both families), I’m unsure why anyone would make that decision. But I guess you’re right. Selfishness.

           

           

        8. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance said, “…but this nonsense can happen just as easily if you marry an older woman who is your age.”

          Buck replied,  “Quite true. Which does lead one to ask why the ladies here never regale us with any tales of THAT (can’t recall a single woman here even mentioning so much as ONE of those)?”

          There’s a simple reason I don’t regale you with stories of older men who marry older women who treat them like crap:  I haven’t seen it happen.

          One of my best friends was widowed at 63 after 25+ years of marriage–the second for both.  She nursed her husband at home before he died of metastatic lung cancer.  Two years after he passed she met a widower her age on match.  They dated for 18 months and lived together for 6 months before they married.  They just had their 7 year anniversary.  He had a near fatal heart attack two years ago, and my friend nursed him through the recovery months afterward and did the rehab exercise with him, which they still do together.  There’s no way the treat him like crap then steal his money scenario is going to play out since she has more money than him.  They both get along well with each other’s adult children, and my friend’s step-daughters from her 2nd husband have gone on girl’s weekends with my friend.  My friend has character and isn’t into stealing her husband’s children’s inheritance.

          I have two male colleagues who married in their early 60s.  Both to women who had substantial assets of their own.  Both couples did living wills, medical POAs, and inheritance agreements (post-nups) after they married.  The partners wanted to make sure that the kids and grandkids received generous inheritances and family heirlooms.  So they talked about it then shared the estate plans with the kids so everything was transparent.

          Buck said, “I would hazard a guess, that the fact that an older woman may ill-use an older man, as readily as a younger woman can, is of no concern to them.”

          Sure it is.  We have fathers, uncles, brothers, and friends.  We don’t want to see it happening with partners of any age. Now consider the underlying dynamic difference of these relationships.  Buck, you said “. . .  I’m not so stupid as to believe that most, if any women under that age would have any interest in a relationship with me, other than for money/security. . .”  That “other than” makes a big difference.  Because if a woman is with you only for money and security, then she is dam well determined to get it.  Now compare that to the three couples I know who married late in life.  They were all financially secure as singles.  What they wanted from a committed relationship was someone to share their days and their adventures with.  The widows/widowers had previous long happy marriages and enjoy being married.  They’re good at it too–you learn a lot of relationship skills over decades together with someone.

           

        9. Chance

          @GWTF,

           

          “There’s a simple reason I don’t regale you with stories of older men who marry older women who treat them like crap:  I haven’t seen it happen.”

           

          It happens.  You may just not notice it because it doesn’t excite your sensibilities.

        10. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          “It happens.  You may just not notice it because it doesn’t excite your sensibilities.”

          Nope.  It’s just not a situation that has happened amongst my friends, family, and coworkers.  The situation that happens the most is people get married, are content, and stay married.  Which as you say isn’t exciting to many.

      4. 10.1.4
        Stacy2

        Besides, I feel like this way of thinking keeps women in their 30s (me included) in bad relationships for too long, in the mistaken belief that it’s him or no one.

        I think that it does, definitely kept me in a bad marriage for a whole year longer, i exactly thought that dating would be so horrible that trying to “fix” my marriage was a better option, boy was I wrong. I had more success and fun dating after my marriage than i did going in.

        As far settling down rather than being stuck in the dating scene in your 40-ies and 50-ies… i suppose that is a valid approach but ONLY if the guy is truly that amazing and all that, has his shit together, is fairly evolved, smart, cultured and good in bed, etc. Nothing short of that will do. I don’t need to “settle down” just for the sake of it, I’d be much happier on my own rather than in an unsatisfying relationship. And yes, men begin to die out after the age of 50, which is why it is so important to cultivate friendships with your girlfriends. Face it ladies, we’re all going to die alone. Men are only here for a short duration on our life path, plan accordingly – i know I do.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Stacy2, taking the cake:

          “I’d be much happier on my own rather than in an unsatisfying relationship.” Yes, so would everybody on the planet. That’s why I tell people how to get into HAPPY marriages.

          “Men begin to die out after the age of 50, which is why it is so important to cultivate friendships with your girlfriends.” What? Here’s the lifespan for men: average is 76.

          “Face it ladies, we’re all going to die alone.” If you stay single, you can guarantee you will die alone. But you marry well, statistically speaking, he’ll live to 76 and you’ll live to 81.

          “Men are only here for a short duration on our life path, plan accordingly – i know I do.” If you’re, say, 37, you’re missing out on 40 years with a husband. Maybe you think that’s a short time. I don’t.

          Thank you, Stacy, for making a better case how NOT to approach one’s love life than I ever could.

        2. Stacy2

          @Buck25:

          Thank you, my dear, for so nicely illustrating just what a single man my age can expect to see brought to the table by single women of the same vintage

          Yes, after a lifetime of bending over backwards for men and catering the the needs of men, and putting family first (read: man first), the women are choosing to live for themselves and you’re pissed off? Need more catering to your needs, it never stops? Whatever.

          @Evan:

          But you marry well, statistically speaking, he’ll live to 76 and you’ll live to 81.

          Ok, so lets do this math shall we? If I marry well at 37 and he dies at 76 and I die at 81, that means that we spent 39 years together, vs. 42 years that i spend without said guy, out of my lifetime that is. And i still die alone.

          But then, of course, I am not a statistical average, we each have our own genetics and different life expectancy. One of my grandmothers outlived her husband by 16 years. Another one by 56 (!). Yes, she was a widow for longer than I have been alive (and she never remarried because, as she said, she didn’t need to clean up after those useless alcoholics… so there you have it). Anyway, based on my individual life expectancy that I am planning for, i will outlive that statistically average guy by about 25 years. Which means that if I get married today to the person of the same age, we will spend 42 years together, but i will have spent 59 years on my own total (34 before i meet him and 25 after he dies). If I get married to someone older than myself, those numbers get even worse. So you see how thinking about it in numerical terms gives some perspective as to the relative importance of things in life. My grandma who outlived her hubby by 56 years – she worked all her life, sent two kids to college, saved enough money to leave her grandchildren inheritance against all odds and died in her own home, did as she pleased and never catered to no man. Now that’s a role model.

           

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          As always, Stacy, you make an airtight case for why you have no idea what you’re talking about. I can’t even summon a reply, anymore than I can figure out how to debate our President – such is the level of hermetically sealed anger and illogic.

        4. Adam

          Evan,

          It’s certainly difficult to argue with someone who’s planning to live to precisely one hundred and one years of age Lol

      5. 10.1.5
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        Same thing happens with a man’s rear end.

         

        Not if he exercises 🙂

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I’m afraid age will catch up with all of us.

        2. Buck25

          This is true.

    2. 10.2
      D_M

      Why were you unsure about what to feel? Young boy either put a spring in your step or he didn’t. How would you approach dating differently if you found yourself at 50 without husband # 2.? It seems like the age thing is always the elephant in the room that does not get talked about enough.

    3. 10.3
      S.

      The dating scene is difficult at any age for certain men. I remember a thread here about Asian men. (Not trying to revisit that, just an example.)

      I like to remember something Karl R. said about his wife who is 16 years older.  I’m paraphrasing, but he knows she’s worth it.

      It may get harder, fewer lids as Evan put in a recent podcast.  But some people start with fewer lids out there for them at the outset and it was always difficult for them.  Other lids end up not being for a lifetime for whatever reason.  But the lids are out there.  Just gotta stay positive and realistic and keep looking for what one wants.  And never give up.

      1. 10.3.1
        S.

        I didn’t mean certain men, I meant certain people, men and women.

    4. 10.4
      Malika

      Hi Stacy,

      I hope you meet someone sooner rather than later as that is what you want, but i can assure you, seeing the experience of my older friends, that dating is not a barren wasteland as a woman once you get past a certain age. A friend of mine in her 50’s who is in great shape is very much in demand from dudes of all sorts of ages. I myself was told that at 35 my best dating years were behind me years ago, yet i have never had so much male attention (Taking care of appearances and imbibing Evan’s tips help). I agree that some of the more vocal men on this blog and elsewhere just love to insist that they have the upper hand at dating once they are older but there is usually an agenda behind the bragging. It’s never exactly the Warren Beatty’s of this world that insist on this fortuitous ‘reality’, but the ones that feel wronged and shortchanged by women and now seek their moment of revenge. Is there a sizeable part of the population that worships at the altar of youth? Absolutely, there is no denying that and i’ll even admit to being part of that cult at moments myself, but it’s not the doom and gloom that the dating blogosphere makes it out to be.

      1. 10.4.1
        Emily, the original

        Malika,

        I agree that some of the more vocal men on this blog and elsewhere just love to insist that they have the upper hand at dating once they are older but there is usually an agenda behind the bragging.It’s never exactly the Warren Beatty’s of this world that insist on this fortuitous ‘reality’, but the ones that feel wronged and shortchanged by women and now seek their moment of revenge.

        The Warren Beatty’s of the world don’t have to brag. Their reputation precedes them.

        Seeing the experience of my older friends, that dating is not a barren wasteland as a woman once you get past a certain age.

        I have a friend in her mid-70s who met a great guy. He is HER age. Imagine.

         

         

  11. 11
    fleurdl123

    There’s realistic, brutally honest, and gleefully negative. Since older men are falling apart and older women are a scourge upon the senses, what do people over 50+ do to find love? YAG? Buck25?

    1. 11.1
      Henriette

      They don’t.  They come here and complain about the opposite sex 😉

      1. 11.1.1
        Fleurdl23

        Yes, too bad. 😼

    2. 11.2
      Buck25

      I don’t. Since I’m not about to have any kind of relationship (sexual or otherwise) with any woman over fifty-five or so, I date younger women, for whatever time it will be, and just enjoy the sex while I still can. This, in my case, is only part visual; the rest of it has to do with where I was between 1969 and 1973 and how quite a few women in my age group(plus or minus 10 to 12 years) treated those of us who were wearing the uniform. I can assure you those of us who served in Nam remember the “welcome” we got when we came home(not that we didn’t know it was coming before we even left). Seems the peacenik guys (I refuse to call any one of those rank disgusting cowards “men”), were afraid we might hit back at them, so they let their women do their dirty work for them, especially when it came to spitting, throwing stuff in our faces, etc. Funny, how none of those women today express one shred of remorse; to hear them tell it, they have no idea it even happened; of course, THEY didn’t do it, and don’t know anyone who did. Funny, I’ve heard that lie from some faces I will never forget; they don’t remember me, or the other men they cursed, spat on, threw their drinks in our faces…or worse (why would they, we were all alike in their eyes, just another baby-killing Nazi pig); but I for one sure as hell remember them. So, I don’t care to date, or even associate with, women in that age group, because since no one admits to doing it, any one of them might have.

      If you think that’s harsh, why don’t you try, just for a moment, to imagine coming home from combat, with more dead friends than live ones, a thousand-yard stare in your eyes, a head full of ghosts, and a heart missing pieces left on a forgotten battlefield ten thousand miles away, and being greeted with insults, accusations of atrocities you and your comrades never committed, being pelted with everything from garbage to bags of feces, blood and urine. Imagine girls you knew a few short years before calling you a murdering pig, a warmonger, a baby-killer, a rapist, and a war criminal, and telling you they’re sorry you didn’t die over there, because you deserved to (their new boyfriend and their professors at college said so!). Imagine a pretty young girl walking up to you in a bar, and asking you if you got that scar on your face in Vietnam, and when you answered “Yes Ma’am, I did”, she called you names I won’t repeat here, as she threw her drink in your face, and walked back to her table where she and four more of her girlfriends laughed and giggled about what she just did. Imagine walking down the street, still in uniform, and seeing a young woman pull her child back, while saying in a whisper intended to be heard, “That’s a bad man! He was in Vietnam, and they’re all crazy!” All you did was do what you were ordered to do, the best you could, but now  everything they think was wrong with your war, real or imagined, is now somehow all your fault. Imagine you’re twenty-three, and this is your welcome home…to another war here at home, where it’s made really clear that half the country wishes you had never come back, and the other half doesn’t particularly give a shit. You wake up at night, sweating and shaking, because you are back there in that elephant grass or that damned jungle once again, where you are every night, right back in the middle of a firefight, and no one, and I mean no one, except the others who were there, gives a damn, except those peacenik women, who say, when they hear about it, that all of you deserve that and more, and they’re glad you’re suffering whatever it is. If you do feel a need to talk about it, even with your wife or girlfriend, she doesn’t want to hear it; neither does any other woman; can’t handle feeling even the slightest hint of what you had to feel and still feel. Do you get the picture, yet? Now, ask yourself, how you think you could ever forgive or forget that? Oh you could? You’re sure about that? I’m not, because you have not experienced even one hour of being treated like that. Let’s just say, it left a lasting impression. So now, all I see in the female faces of that generation, is one more reminder of that experience, and you know, I just don’t need that, not anymore. So I prefer the company of those who are too young to remember, because then it’s easier to forget, or try to. They don’t ask about it, and I don’t have to explain it to them. Now, do you finally get it?

      1. 11.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Appreciate your active participation but you may want to take such lengthy polemics to your own blog, Buck.

      2. 11.2.2
        Fleurdl23

        I am sorry about what you experienced.

  12. 12
    KK

    D_M,

    “It seems like the age thing is always the elephant in the room that does not get talked about enough”.

    Really? To me, it seems like it’s talked about incessantly. On here, at least.

    Some of the guys come here and say women are worthless after 30 or 50 or whatever age. I wonder if they realize or even care that they’re insulting ALL women. We will all be that age eventually. The ladies on here don’t typically say that. We just want someone within our age range; which is quite different. It means that we will eventually find all age ranges desirable.

    If I went out with someone who went on and on about how he doesn’t find 50 year old women attractive, I’d next him quickly. Why? Because I’ll be 50 eventually. To hell with that nonsense.

    1. 12.1
      Emily, the original

      KK,

      The ladies on here don’t typically say that. We just want someone within our age rang

      Yes, the women on here don’t have a problem with men their own age. Our tastes have grown, changed and matured as we have.

      1. 12.1.1
        Buck25

        I humbly suggest you check out the numb ver of 60 + year old women on Match whose desired age range for a partner runs from 20 years younger to “only” 2 years younger than themselves. Women do it, too; appears to me, it’s not just men who are superficial when we get older. BY the way, I think I’ve mentioned this oh, ten or fifteen times before, but words like “superficial” and “shallow” are just attack words , and it’s the ones who use them the loudest and the most often, who are the most insecure are the most insecure. You can yell those two words at me till hell freezes over, all it says to me, is “I can’t meet men’s standards”. Tough. Since when did any man not have to meet yours? *crickets*  Uh huh, that’s what I thought. Pot, meet kettle.

        1. Emily, the original

          I wrote the women on here. Most of the female posters on this site write that they want a man who is around their age.

          And, also, you say you are 68 and won’t date women over 55. Are open to 81-year-old women hitting on you? Because that’s how much of an age difference there is on the other end.

    2. 12.2
      D_M

      KK,

      Hopefully you realize those individuals are just howling at the moon. A subset of people tend to operate in an alternate emotional maturity reality. For both genders, youth garners a certain amount of dating currency, but it runs out. No amount of roids or Mary Kay will ward off father time. It’s the old head dude complaing about how vain young women are. It’s the chick refusing to accept that waiting for men to approach, naturally reduces your opportunies for success. Both genders stick to their respective guns and slowly erode the bonding years which causes our partners to see us favorably as we age. I’ve tried to have this conversation with friends, but reason falls on defy ears. I was curious how Stacy would respond to the age comment, because she appears to be aware that the head turning currency runs out.

    3. 12.3
      Stacy2

      If I went out with someone who went on and on about how he doesn’t find 50 year old women attractive, I’d next him quickly. Why? Because I’ll be 50 eventually. To hell with that nonsense.

      This is exactly what happened to me once. I went out with a guy who at some point professed “i don’t date women over 40!” (he was in his late 40 ies). And I said “Why not?”. I thought he realized right away that he screwed up, because he had that look like a rat that is desperately trying to get out of a labyrinth. or at least that’s the mental image i had of this situation. And i remember thinking “there’s only one way to get out of this alive, let’s see if he’s at least smart enough to find it”. He didn’t. He mumbled some nonsense that didn’t even make sense. I never saw that guy again, though he continued to text me for a while. Months later I was on a date at the same spot where he and I  met, and saw him with another younger woman, thinking “not a chance” LOL. I wonder what his batting average is, my guess is very low.

      1. 12.3.1
        Adam

        And i remember thinking “there’s only one way to get out of this alive, let’s see if he’s at least smart enough to find it”. He didn’t.

         

        What happened next?! Did you kill him?:o

      2. 12.3.2
        Shaukat

        If you weren’t all that in your 20-ies, by the time you hit 40 – stick a fork in it. Honestly.

        This is completely black and white (not too surprised, since you wrote it) and doesn’t come close to capturing the gray in such situations. In fact, it doesn’t even capture your reality. On a different thread you wrote that you find it much more enjoyable dating in your thirties than you did in your twenties–I can say the same. People, men and women, if they learn from their mistakes and embrace self-improvement, can get better with experience and age and increase their SMV. Of course, both men and women do hit their sexual prime in their twenties, but people who work out and take care of themselves, and pay attention to fashion, can in fact look better in their thirties (and yes, sometimes even forties) than they did when they were younger.

        As to what all those hot women are doing now, again, not so black and white. Some are no doubt happily married, while others got knocked up at the end of high school and spent the better years of their lives working as servers in truck stops (I see it whenever I visit my hometown). Others might get married young, have a terrible experience, file for divorce, and then channel all that resentment and anger into labelling all men as broken and deficient (remind you of anyone?).

        As you said in your own post, there is no “us women” vs “us men” in this area.

        1. Stacy2

          I don’t disagree with what you wrote. There are of course multiple ways to improve one’s SMV. Lose weight, get plastic surgery, sell a startup for $500m, etc. The point I am making that nobody’s SMV, for the lack of a better term, will increase just by virtue of getting older. So, if our buddy Adam here was a 5 in his 20-ies, he will be like a 3 by the time he’s 40 – unless he’s able to remediate that by getting rich or doing P90X  7 days a week. And those hot girls who rejected him, who he thinks he’s gonna teach some kind of lesson now by refusing to commit LOL, they’re posting the pictures of their 2nd kids on facebook right now. C’est la vie.

      3. 12.3.3
        Malika

        Hi Stacy2:

        I think we went on a date with the same guy ( I live in Amsterdam, you live in NYC, so probably not)! He was in his mid forties and stated he didn’t date women over thirty. I was 33 at the time, which made me OMGsoooooold. I then asked him whether that meant he wouldn’t date Rachel Weisz aka Mrs Bond (she was 46 at the time). He looked dumbfounded and said ‘she’s gorgeous… She’s what?’. I left it at that and told him i had an early meeting the next day. Some people hold on to the idea of calendar age so blindly that they deny to themselves that there are attractive men and women of all ages walking around. At least James Bond could see a winner when he spotted it.

        1. Stacy2

          I know, on the plus side I would rather these guys expose themselves right away, or as soon as possible so that I can next them asap. Some other gems I heard from various guys were “I wouldn’t date such ugly woman” (about a woman on the streethe said he knew) and “so she popped two kids out, no big deal all women do that” said about ex-wife. Jeez! Things you hear.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Malika,

          “I then asked him whether that meant he wouldn’t date Rachel Weisz aka Mrs Bond (she was 46 at the time). He looked dumbfounded and said ‘she’s gorgeous… She’s what?”

          LOL!

          There’s concept in field of wellness medicine and health optimization that we all have a physiological age, which is the age someone’s body systems actually are functioning at and it doesn’t always correlate with one’s calendar age, for better or for worse.  It’s the scientific exploration of what we see its our own eyes:  There are some 40 year olds that have better health than some 30 year olds and it’s often reflected in their appearance.  A lot of it is genetic, but a lot is behavioral.

    4. 12.4
      Tron Swanson

      All human beings have worth, so I agree that it’s ridiculous to say that women over a certain age are worthless. That said, that doesn’t mean that I’m sexually attracted to them. I have a hard cutoff point–45–and I’ve stuck to it for my entire adult life. I’m simply not attracted to women beyond that age, with a few celebrity exceptions. When I cease to be able to hook up with women under 45, I plan to be celibate from that point on.

      It’s easy to claim that I’ll change my mind and give in…but people said I’d do that in regards to dating, getting married, and having children, and I never did.

      Women aren’t as appealing as they think they are, and they certainly aren’t worth as much effort as they think they are, either. It’s nice to see other men waking up to this.

      1. 12.4.1
        Stacy

        @Tron

        I would love to interview you when you’re 80.

        1. Tron Swanson

          Stacy,

          When I look at the older men in my life, their wives and families bring more pain than joy. I don’t think I’m missing out on anything–quite the contrary, I think that I’ll be avoiding a lot of drama.

          On the rare occasions when I’ve talked to older men about women and relationships, they’ve said that I’m wise to have avoided “all that crap,” and that they wish they could have lived their lives differently.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Says a lot about your friends and their choices; nothing about women or marriage as an institution.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Evan,

          It’s the suggestion-box-at-the-front-of-the-store phenomenon.  Unhappy customers stuff the suggestion box with complaints.  Happy customers don’t even notice the suggestion box when they walk by.  Unhappy customers demand to be heard!

        4. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          I only have one friend, and he’s too sane to ever consider marriage. I’m referring to family and acquaintances. But I’m sure it’s my own fault for, uh, choosing the wrong family and acquaintances? When my neighbor introduced her father, I should have known better than to talk to him because…uh…I telepathically knew that he agreed with me?

        5. Evan Marc Katz

          Okay bud. Bye now. Read all you want but don’t waste my time with your relentlessly negative comments. If you don’t believe in love and don’t want a relationship, that’s fine, but get off my front lawn with your anti-love crap.

          It’s like trolling a Catholic dating site by posting atheist comments.

          Troll elsewhere.

        6. Tron Swanson

          Evan,

          I feel that I’m making logical points, and not trolling. I didn’t insult you, I pointed out that I’m not choosing the people I mentioned.

          Bubbles are something that should be avoided. When you start exiling anyone who disagrees with you, well, you’re going to lose touch with what’s really going on out there. I’m simply here as a reminder. When you give advice to women, and when women think about interacting with men, it’s good to remember that there’s a growing number of disaffected men out there. Better to learn about us here than out there. If you send women into the world thinking that the vast majority of men are like you, well, they’re going to be shocked when they run into the likes of Buck or myself. You can say that we’re a tiny minority…but take a look at what powerful men are saying and getting away with. I’m the moderate, intellectual version; I just want to have a dialogue about this stuff.

          It’s easy to exile people from polite society, but they’re still in society, whether you want to deal with them or not. Sooner or later, you’ll be shocked when you discover just how many people disagree with you on core issues.

          I have a ton of FWB experience. It’s ironic that, in this thread about FWBs, you’re saying that I don’t belong.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          I know you exist. But you don’t need to exist HERE.

          You’re not a tiny minority. You’re a majority. And I help women weed out men like you fast. You may be a good man, but you’re a waste of our time. Our goal is a happy marriage – not fruitless debate with MGTOWs trying to defend their disinterest in commitment or predilection for younger women. We really don’t care.

          Simply put: you and Buck are taking up too much oxygen here.

          Truth is: you don’t want the women I coach and they don’t want you either.

          So yes, if I’m helping women learn to find men like me (ethical, respect women, like women, relationship oriented, sensitive) and you’re dominating the conversation, it’s my imperative to take the conversation back.

          This is the end. I’m not afraid of debate; I just think you’re a downer for my goal here. I want people who elevate the conversation by HELPING women. You’re just raining on everyone’s parade. You may defend yourself by saying you’re helping by revealing what many men are like. True. But I don’t care. You’re not representative the subset of men who are good husband material (like Jeremy or Karl, for example), so ultimately, this isn’t really useful.

          I’m here to help women understand men (who want marriage) and find love (with men who want marriage). If you’re not on that team, get out of the way.

        8. Tron Swanson

          That’s fair enough, Evan. It’s your digital property, so you can do with it as you please. Thank you for letting me comment as long as you did.

          In lieu of dominating the conversation here, I’ll return to helping to dominate the larger conversation out in the world…it’s been going very well, and it’s what’s more important, so you’re probably doing me a favor.

      2. 12.4.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Tron Swanson

        This blog has made me do quite a bit of self-examination.  Most importantly of all, it made look for an to answer to the question: “Why would I want to be in a committed relationship at this point in my life?”   So far, the answer to that question has eluded me.  It was such an easy question to answer when I was in my twenties and early thirties; namely, access to steady sex.  However, sex is ridiculously easy to obtain today compared to before I married.  I was expecting to hear Rob Serling’s voice the first time a woman asked if I wanted to take her home on the first date without being under the influence of alcohol.  I thought that it was a fluke, but it has occurred many times since I re-entered the dating pool.  In my mid-thirties, I wanted to marry and start a family.  Now, there is no good reason whatsoever to be tied to one woman.  I am completely self-sufficient.  I can cook, clean, iron, grocery shop, and do laundry in addition to home repairs.  I suspect that there are many women my age who feel the same way about being tied to a man.

         

        1. Stacy

          YAG,

          I think the problem you face is, you see having a woman as a burden because you tend to date women that do not suit you emotionally. The other problem is, yes, you can get easy sex. But, easy sex from randoms come (sometimes) with emotional instability, STDs, emotional attachments, etc.

          Remember that you will get older and older. Remember that there is no companionship like another half who COMPLIMENTS you emotionally and spiritually. You undervalue it because you haven’t found it. And whether you admit it or not, your last marriage has taken away some of your light. I know a few couples who have found it and well, let’s say that kind of connection goes way beyond cooking and cleaning.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy

          And whether you admit it or not, your last marriage has taken away some of your light.

          I have only been married one time.  I did not marry until my mid-thirties.  To be completely honest, I doubt that I would have married had I not wanted a family.   While sex is ridiculously easy to obtain today, it has never been particularly difficult for me obtain, which is why it took so long for me to marry in the first place.  For heaven’s sake, I am a guy who hooked up with a woman on federal jury duty (I will never live that one down).  I am not God’s gift to women by any stretch of the imagination, but I truly look younger than most men my age.  Most fortysomethings think that I am a fortysometing.  Heck, even twentysomethings think that I am in my mid-forties.   People are shocked to discover that I am six years away from being old enough to draw early Social Security. Having a full head of hair that contains no visible gray, a muscular mesomorph’s build, and never being a sun worshiper has left me with a less aged exterior.  I am not delusional.  My age is going to catch up with me.   I just do not particularly care if I ever have another long-term relationship at this point.  I have my family, and I survived my divorce with my pension and my retirement savings in tact.  I have little incentive to roll the dice a second time.

        3. SS

          Your posts make me sad though.  I don’t think I’ll find someone for a long time.  I can;t seem to.  And, if what you’re saying is accurate probably my best years were taken by some greedy sh-t plate who used me and wouldn’t let me leave him.  (It was horrible.)  What am I to do?

        4. Tron Swanson

          YAG,

          I can relate. Now, I never wanted marriage or children, but I started out wanting a relationship. I assumed that I did, anyway–I liked sex and thought women were generally fun. But I burned out on the relationship concept by the time I was in my mid-twenties. It only took a little taste of them to make me realize that they held no appeal for me. I thought they would, because I was inexperienced and put women on a pedestal…but once women became more of a reality than a concept, I screamed in horror and ran away. Relationships aren’t worth the time, effort, or money.

          I think that sizable minorities of men and women alike are starting to prefer being single to being in relationships. If I were a woman, I suspect that I’d feel the same way, but for different reasons.

        5. Malika

          Hi YAG:

          While most of us on here are looking for a long term relationship, I actually don’t think it’s for everyone, in all phases of their lives. And that if you are happy with your life the way it is, you should keep it that way. You are blessed with children, good health, a high sense of self efficacy and a comfortable life, your set up sounds pretty sweet as is.

          Both my mother and grandmother once their husbands passed away, didn’t feel like dating again even though they had been in happy marriages (though a man turned up at my grandmother’s funeral that did make me wonder if her love life in later life had been as uneventful as she made it out to be!). They love/loved living on their own, were very self sufficient and found the single life delightfully uncomplicated and freeing! While i am sure they missed the companionship at times, they led full lives and were so unstressed it makes me contemplate the single life from time to time. I feel driven to seek out an emotional and sexual bond with a man and that compels to keep me going, but i don’t see it as the only choice I could make.

        6. CaliforniaGirl

          Yep, I don’t see a value to be in a relationship anymore as well. I make enough money to have a very nice lifestyle, most men I meet make less than me, so I will have to compromise and I don’t really want. I compromised 10 years of my marriage, cleaned, cooked, was a good wife. Enough. I have a young stud as a booty call, we are good friends as well, none of the older men I’ve dated could even come close to his stamina and his open mind. I have few good guy friends, who will always help/fix/carry something heavy for me if I ever need it but hiring someone from taskrabbit or handy is much easier than asking a boyfriend to fix something. Nowadays, with Google, I can resolve many domestic issues and really don’t need a man for that. My friends are giving me all the emotional support that I doubt many men can give.

          I met with my college friends few weeks ago, 4 couples, I haven’t seen them in a while. Only one couple seamed happy, two other guys tried to hit on me, one guy was out gambling all the time and his wife told me that she would never ever get married again after she divorces him soon. What’s the point?

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Why would ANYONE who doesn’t want a relationship come here all the time to comment? That’s not just you, that goes for everyone. What do you want? To sour everyone else on relationships because misery loves company?

  13. 13
    Marika

    YAG 

    Statistics can be used to prove anything. 87% of people know this to be true…😉

    Unless you do a LOT of research with random samples of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide in your spare time, you seem to often confuse facts with beliefs based on your own personal experience. Which leads to scare mongering.

  14. 14
    [email protected]

    “Being an alpha means being a leader, nothing more, nothing less (as in leader of a wolf pack).  It has zero to do with how much money he earns.”

    Wrong. Being an alpha woman is being a leader and more. Corporate power and societal influence which sometimes, if not most of the time driven by money.  Thinking otherwise is ignorant.

    1. 14.1
      Yet Another Guy

      Once again, alpha status has nothing to do with money.  Some alphas have money, but alpha is about exerting control and being a leader.  The term is borrowed from wolf packs.  The alpha becomes the alpha by demonstrating dominance.  Leadership, as opposed to management, is about dominance.  Ideally, a leader wants his/her followers to willingly submit.

      If one observes a group of single men who know each other out on the town, it is fairly easy to spot the extroverted alpha male in the group.  He is the extroverted guy who the other guys tend to emulate.  The introverted alpha (a.k.a. sigma) in the group, if one exists, is more elusive to spot.  To the untrained eye, he appears to be a beta, but there is one huge difference; namely, he goes out and hunts on his own without the aid of a wing man.  He is the guy in the group who will disappear only to be seen later leaving with an attractive woman.  That is the definition of a sigma male.  He does not need, nor does he care to have a wing man when he is on the prowl.  Quite frankly, he does not need the group.  He succeeds in spite of rejecting the hierarchy itself.

      1. 14.1.1
        Marika

        YAG,

        Date whoever you like. But if you reject women your own age, don’t be surprised if women 10 years younger than you (particularly those who are more highly educated) reject you. It’s only fair if you’re being superficial that woman will be just a superficial in return.  I would personally much prefer to date a man no more than 5 years older than me (for reasons other than looks for the most part). And I definitely wouldn’t be interested in a man who gave any indication that he intends to break up with me as soon as I turn 50! I would imagine most woman feel that way. So you’ll have to keep chasing younger and younger women as you age, to ensure they have the right kind of skin.

        Hope it all works out for you & that karma is kind to you.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          Date whoever you like. But if you reject women your own age, don’t be surprised if women 10 years younger than you (particularly those who are more highly educated) reject you.

          YES. YES. YES.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I do not have a problem with rejection.   The average man has been dealing with rejections since he started asking girls to dances.  One thing an experienced man knows is that there will always be women who say “yes.”

          As far as to dating women my own age, well, I have mentioned it before on this blog.  I have nothing on common with most women my own age other than age, nor have I dated women who were less than five years my junior since I was twenty-six.   I married a younger woman in my thirties, and we were both in our thirties when we had children (I was in my late thirties).   How many mid-fiftysomething women have teenage children that are their only children? Most of the early fiftysomething and a large proper subset of the the late fortysomething women I meet have children that flew the nest years ago, many of whom are married with children of their own.  I am not dating a grandmother because a) we have lived very different lives (i.e., nothing in common), and b) we are at different stages in life family-wise.  Most fiftysomething women who married and started their families at a younger age are looking to do the things that I did when I was still young enough to truly enjoy the experience (e.g., travel the world).

        3. Adam

          Hey Marika,

          I’m a guy in my early thirties and I talk about these issues with female friends who are struggling to find a relationship. I think men and women are better off with someone as close to their own age as possible (generally – of course lots of people are in big age gap realtionships and are very happy – no offence intended to you guys!). Here’s what I believe is a major issue: the age at which men and women want to settle down does not match! When were 18-22, a lot of my male friends wanted girlfriends and couldn’t get them. I think this period that a lot of guys go through sort of damages them for a long time. Our contemporaries at the time were more interested in older guys (so it seemed to us). Now ten years later the girls are looking for relationships but we (guys of the same age) are usually happy with short term casual flings and having fun. I feel like this mismatch of relationship goals at concurrent ages is going to cause a lot of issues for hetero people in the coming years. The only real solution I can suggest to female friends is to go for an older guy – but as you have alluded to, not all women want that, and in terms of campanionship I do think people just ‘get along’ with similar aged people better. Persoanlly I have no desire to for commitment and can’t see that changing in the next few years – perhaps if women are willing to wait another 5-10 years itll work out for everyone?

        4. Buck25

          @ Marika,

          Who says they have to be “highly educated? I’m looking for fun, not a trivial pursuit partner or a research assistant. Besides, that’s only a measure of formal education, not intellectual capacity, or substance. I’ve  known a lot of PhD’s of both genders who don’t have the common sense to get out of a rain shower, and high school graduates who are surprisingly intelligent. I can tell more by the quality of the writing and speech, than from a list of degrees.Besides, I hate to break it to those highly educated women here, but your multiple PhD.’s  are far less of a SMV consideration to a man like me, than a nicely shaped ass that moves in the right ways. I’m a superficial sexist pig? Thank you, thank you very much!

        5. Stacy2

          @Adam

          Now ten years later the girls are looking for relationships but we (guys of the same age) are usually happy with short term casual flings and having fun

          Here’s a prime example of the MRA/PU or whatever they call themselves now BS. No dear, this is not how stuff works at all. There’s no “us men” and “them women”.

          Those super hot girls who you were chasing in your 20-ies with no success that left you so “damaged”? They’re long married  – to the men with money, looks and confidence who out-competed you in the first place.

          The Plane Janes who you wouldn’t give a time of day in your 20-ies while complaining you couldn’t get a g/f? They’re also likely married – to less jaded guys who appreciated them for who they were.

          So it is you and the likes of you – who spent their 20-ies chasing girls way out of their league and 30-ies picking up crumbs in the dating scene – who are the losers in the dating game. Not the women. Nobody is going to “wait another 5 years” for you pal. If you weren’t all that in your 20-ies, by the time you hit 40 – stick a fork in it. Honestly.

          At your age you should do some introspection. If being a bachelor is something that is appealing – you’re on the right track. Otherwise, don’t kid yourself you’re not a bottle of Bordeaux and you’re not getting more valuable with age.  Get down to locking in a decent woman while you still can.

        6. Chance

          Stacy2,

          “Those super hot girls who you were chasing in your 20-ies with no success that left you so “damaged”? They’re long married  – to the men with money, looks and confidence who out-competed you in the first place.”

          Actually, the stats don’t bear this out.  People who marry in their 20s are much more likely to be acting on their hormones as opposed to a more rational assessment of compatibility, and as a result, they are much more likely to end up divorced or otherwise miserable.  The real question is:  are these people willing to perform the necessary self-reflection to identify the cause of their failed marriage, or are they going to lash out in bitterness towards the opposite sex because things haven’t turned out the way they would have liked?

        7. Stacy2

          @Chance:

          Actually, the stats don’t bear this out.  People who marry in their 20s are much more likely to be acting on their hormones 

          Bear what out? The median age for first marriage for men and women in the US is 29 and 27 respectively. Which rings true to me given my own circle of friends. There’s a huge difference between getting married when you’re 22 and when you’re 28. At 28 you already have a stable career and a pretty good idea of what you want in life and partner. Then if that doesn’t pan out there’s still time for the attempt #2 in your 30ies…

        8. Adam

          Stacy2,

          Wow thats a lot of projection:O

          You’re so far off in all your speculations about me/my life I wouldn’t even know where to begin correcting you, and from your weirdly angry tone I’m guessing you just don’t want to hear anything that doesn’t confirm your prejudices, so I won’t even try!

          Anyway just another couple of thoughts on this topic: there’s another thread about younger men/older women active right now and it quite well describes the situation of my best male friend; he dates older (40’s) women for the same reason I date younger (early/mid 20’s) women – there’s no pressure, just fun. The older women are past the kids age and the younger ones aren’t. There’s a writer on these issues (perhaps Evan!) who says men look for sex and find love – this is v. perceptive. I’d probably make it more PG and say men are looking for nice fun short term relationships (I certianly am) and find longer more serious ones (I don’t want this to happen but you never know), but its quite true. So one of my good female friends (who I’m trying to help) will see a guy 3-5 times – its all going well – then out of the blue anounce she’s not seeing him anymore because its not going anywhere! Ladies, you have to slow down. My friend is 34 and I understand she has to do it soon if she wants kids, but what I’m trtying to tell her, without being too blunt, is that this motivation is causing her to behave in the most incredibly unattractive manner imaginable. There can’t be many 34 yr old guys who want to hear about marriage and kids on the first date. To be slightly brutal I’m guessing the guys that do just don’t have many options. I’ve read that IVF is getting better and better all the time, and perhaps this could be the great savior of heterosexual relationships – if my female contemporaries knew they had another 15 years of fertility I’m confident it’d bring their view of relationships more inline with my own. But whats a girl to do? Older guys, ‘lesser’ attractive guys or accept a single life? It seems the women who are naturally attracted to older men are in luck; I myself plan to settle down in my later 40’s/early 50’s with a woman of about 35/36 who has just realised she doesn’t want children. I think this is going to be the most common relationship type in the future. Hopefully by then reproduction can be taken care of in a painless and sterile laboratory:)

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Adam

          So one of my good female friends (who I’m trying to help) will see a guy 3-5 times – it’s all going well – then out of the blue announce she’s not seeing him anymore because it’s not going anywhere!
          I have news for you.   Many fiftysomething women have the same approach to dating; however, fiftysomething women are being driven by the approaching retirement age clock.   Apparently, the thought of going into one’s retirement years alone is scary proposition for many women.  The letter writer is a prime example of this phenomenon.

      2. 14.1.2
        fleurdl123

        There is a cologne ad in there somewhere.

        1. D_M

          fleurd123,

          Don’t keep all the humor to yourself. I need a good chuckle every now and then. Pitch me the cologne. I can always use a new fragrance.

        2. fleurdl123

           
          He is elusive, like that raccoon on your back porch. 
          He is mysterious, like the aroma of that clove-stuffed orange that fell behind your couch last Christmas.
          He is a maverick who eschews the crowd in favor of his brooding inner life. 
          Killer.  Builder. King.
          Eyes glinting, he listens, absorbs and strikes with supreme independence like a cobra stealing your new Iphone to take a selfie. He claims his prey and escapes with her on his Vespa before you can say, “hey, that’s my wife!”

          Above all, he is a renegade—“replete with dark energies that give him an edge in survival.”

          He is Brando. Dean. Eastwood. And Sully from Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. 

          He is SIGMA.

          SIGMA, pour homme.  A fragrance for the man who won’t just follow the pack.

           

        3. SS

           

           

          It reads like an awful set of pitches for those motivational posters.  ” You can be, You can’t be, Alpha, Leadership, ..  Poop.”  Everybody poops.

        4. SS

           

           

          “nor does he care to have a wing man”  Hot wing sauce,

          “on the prowl”  Rotten animal skins

          “he goes out and hunts on his own without the aid of a wing man.  He is the guy in the group who will disappear only to be seen later leaving with an attractive woman.”  Manly musk

          “Once again, ..  hierarchy itself”  Butt smells.

          “Manly rotten butt sauce”

          Heart

          Ya YAG

           

        5. H.

          Your “ad” (Sigma. Pour homme) is pure GENIUS. I logged in just to tell you that. Because you’re worth it. 🙂

           

           

        6. Jeremy

          @fleurdl123, You ad was awesome!  Now post it as adware on the manosphere…

        7. GoWiththeFlow

          fleurdl123,

          LOL!  Love the ad.

        8. Emily, the original

          fleurdl123,

          He is a maverick who eschews the crowd in favor of his brooding inner life. … Killer.  Builder. King.  Above all, he is a renegade

           … He is Brando. Dean. Eastwood. And Sully from Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. 

          I must be your target market demographic, because I actually think that man sounds kind of hot! (Minus Eastwood and Sully. But yes to Brando and Dean.)  🙂

  15. 15
    Marika

    Buck

    Do you have children? If so, I sincerely hope they don’t read your comments here. I have a lot of respect for people in your age group. Like Stacy2, my parents are in your age group and I value their wisdom. If I knew they had these incredibly superficial, self-serving attitudes after all their life experience, I’d be incredibly disappointed.

    Your behaviour is on you. At nearly 70, you should get that. If you chase much younger women for sex, that’s your choice. Not all men your age choose that life. It’s not because of women, the war, whatever, so stop the blame game. It’s time to take full responsibility for your own decisions & actions (that applies to all of us, but especially to you).

    1. 15.1
      Buck25

      Marika,

      Couple of points here. First of all, I don’t need or desire your permission, or that of my kids, or anyone else, to conduct my dating life, sex life, or whatever, as I see fit. Second, I get that people your age can’t wrap their minds around the idea of single people their parents’ age even having, much less chasing, sex. That one is your issue, not mine, and I refuse to own it; I am not responsible for your personal biases and beliefs, whatever those are. Third, some reasons a lot of men my age who are single don’t chase women (younger or otherwise) for sex, include (but are not limited to) lack of money, poor general health, ED issues, lack of desire to have another relationship for any number of reasons, and oh yes, let’s not forget the big one, SOCIAL PRESSURE, from peers, from religious institutions, and from people just like you. Many men cave into that. You can believe that there are more than a few older men, who only wish they had the sheer guts, gall and nerve, to do what I do, openly and defiantly! I on the other hand, love a fight, and I love openly spitting in the face of social convention any time I can! I may be old, but I’ve still got the same brass balls I’ve always had, and I do not respond to threats or bullying, from any person, group, or society at large either; my response to that, so long as I can stand on my hind legs, is complete, absolute, total and unyielding defiance, frequently expressed in a manner calculated to to be as shocking and incendiary as possible. If I’m going to pick a fight, I invite all my enemies to the damn party, so I don’t have to waste energy repeating myself.

      It should be clear to you by now, that I do not care a fig what you, or anyone else, here or elsewhere,  thinks of my supposed wisdom, maturity, or lack thereof. I simply do not care. I want something, and I can go after it legally, then I go after it, and I usually win. I’ll let the pussies and the socially cowardly conformists of the world yield to the societal jackal pack. I just wade in among them and start kicking tail, in whatever way hits and hurts until they back off, (and they usually do). Let anyone make a remark when I have a younger woman on my arm (in my part of America, we have a lot of older religious nuts who like to do that), and my response is a smirk and a barrage of snarky remarks that leave them speechless and shocked. I mean for that response of mine to cut and sting to maximum effect, and believe me it does; I’ve reduced some bigoted busybody biddies (of both genders) to tears, literally; and they richly deserved it! Not terribly sporting of me, I know; I really shouldn’t engage in battles of wits with essentially unarmed combatants, but if they insist on starting it…

      My behavior is on me? Yes it is, and I’m proud of it! I’m not blaming anything, just telling you where I got the attitude. Whatever you think that attitude makes me, I don’t care; I’m really not into labels, either. So my dear, I really don’t care if you think my only legitimate option is to enter into a sexless marriage with some aging crone, who wants something for nothing as much as any gold digger (not to mention that at least the gold digger is bringing something I actually want to the table, while the crone…isn’t). I’m afraid I refuse to buy that swill. I should be miserable so some aging female with nothing to offer of interest can be happy? Tell you what, Marika, I’ll be that “unselfish” the day some attractive female who finds me as unattractive  as those waging crones are are in my eyes, comes up and offers me free sex, just because she thinks I deserve it. Until that day comes, this is not an altruistic enterprise, and I’m not about to pretend that it is. I’ll leave settling for what no one else wants, to beggars. Selfish? Damn right I am, and when it comes to this, any man who claims he isn’t is a coward, a damned liar or both! I don’t intend to marry some woman 25 years younger (or any other  for that matter), but I sure as hell intend to spend the rest of my days bedding as many of the attractive ones as possible. I don’t care whether you or anyone else here approves of that or not. Besides, why the hell should you be happy?

      1. 15.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Buck… let’s call this a warning. You’re writing long, inflammatory posts and hijacking the blog comments. You may have something valuable to contribute, but if you can’t come up with a more tactful way of delivering your message, you can create your own blog instead of inciting things here. Hope to have you stay but if you choose not to, I do understand and wish you the best.

        1. Buck25

          Evan,

          With all due respect, the post I responded to in that last post you object to came pretty close (if it didn’t cross the line) to being a personal attack. I thought that was against the rules here; but perhaps I misunderstand.I responded harshly, but NOT in kind. I hope that is duly noted.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          I’m tired of policing this place. Be a mature man without trying to piss off our readers and we’ll get along fine. But when you offer 2000 word diatribes on what’s wrong with women, you’re being DEstructive, not CONstructive.

      2. 15.1.2
        Marika

        Fair enough, Buck. I’ll leave you to it.

        All the best.

    2. 15.2
      Tron Swanson

      Marika,

      Do you find that shaming is an effective tactic? Honest question. I have a feeling that Buck won’t be particularly fazed by it. In fact, I think that a growing number of men will respond to shaming by doubling down, as opposed to begging for female acceptance. Just something to keep in mind.

      1. 15.2.1
        Marika

        You and I will never agree on anything, Tron. Which is why I’ve stopped responding to your comments, as I told you some time ago I would.

      2. 15.2.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Tron,

        Wow!  Pot. Kettle. Black.

        You’re missing all of the age shaming that many of the male commenters, including yourself, are directing at women here.  Go back and read the comments then maybe you will get why the cocky “I’m a superior man because I command younger women” or the use-biology-to-mask-the-insult (menopause changes a woman’s skin, egads!) doesn’t make women want to empathize with your plight that, poor you, women have the nerve to age and grow old.

        1. Yet Another Man

          @GWtF

          If you read the body of work that is Evan’s blog, you will discover that the balance of hate when it comes to older members of the dating pool is on the female side of the equation.  I was curious as to the reference Buck25 made to women slagging older men for using PDE5 inhibitors and the like, so I Googled Evan’s blog for entries where the word “Viagra” occurred in the comments section  (it usually occurs in a sentence with the word “money”).   I would not say that I was surprised to discover that what Buck25 said about women having a field day with older men was true.  What I was shocked to see was the level of vitriol in the threads.   There was quite a bit of older man hate going on in the small sample of the blog entries that I read.  I did not recognize the names of the worst offenders; therefore, I am assuming that they no longer contribute to the blog.

          With that said, there does seem to be a common angst on Evan’s blog when it comes to the idea of men dating younger women.  There is a lot of crying foul, and a lot of denial that women date older men because they may actually like how they are treated by older men.  Could it be that an older man is not led around by his penis like a younger man; therefore, he is more trustworthy?  Could it be that a reduction in testosterone leads to a kinder, gentler man who is willing to actually listen to a woman and care about her needs? We have all witnessed fathers who did not have time for their children become doting grandfathers.  Sure, there are gold diggers who are looking for a sugar daddy just as their are women with daddy issues.  However, to deny that a older man is more attentive to/patient with a woman’s needs than a younger man is to deny reality.  I am a couple of orders of magnitude more patient than I was before I married, nor am I as quick to get jealous, and I was not exactly a young man when I married.

        2. Callie

          YAM – “Could it be that an older man is not led around by his penis like a younger man; therefore, he is more trustworthy?  Could it be that a reduction in testosterone leads to a kinder, gentler man who is willing to actually listen to a woman and care about her needs?”

          Considering the number of older men here alone who talk about how they don’t want to date women their own age because they don’t want to roll over and see an old ugly woman, and how they talk about women having a shelf life, and how it’s the perfect revenge now to all those formerly hot girls who now are willing to settle down but now these men get to reject them and date hot chicks 20 years younger? I’d say, no it’s probably not that.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          YAM,

          That’s whataboutism.  Some women have posted hateful comments about men and Viagra so it’s okay for men to age and appearance shame women.

          When an individual younger woman dates an older man is is because she wants to?  Well, duh!  The caveat here is that on a population level, people tend to pair up with partners who are close to their own age.  These pairings are not the statistical norm.  And regardless of what younger women’s motivations for dating an older man are, for the men on this thread the motivation isn’t because they want to treat her nicely it’s because they don’t want to roll over in bed in the morning and see an old ugly women.

          Also tied to the old=ugly thoughts expressed by men is their disbelief that because they as individuals aren’t interested in women past an arbitrary age, that there are men who are.  YAM, I’m not sure in you are YAG, but YAG threw out some atrocious statistic about women the original LW’s age’s success in “finding a lover.”  Just a number with a percent sign behind it.  No context, no definitions, no linked study.  I assume this was thrown out there because it confirms what YAG wants to believe about women:  The older, the uglier, and therefore unworthy of any man’s attention.

          It’s like the mission statement of the No Old Chicks Club is “We as men declare older women and the natural process of aging in women to be unacceptable. We further declare that our own advancing years make us more powerful and attractive.  We reject for membership any wussy-man who would even think of dating a woman his own age once he passes the age of 35.”

        4. Shaukat

          I assume this was thrown out there because it confirms what YAG wants to believe about women:  The older, the uglier, and therefore unworthy of any man’s attention.

          I’ve never been convinced by this myth either. I ran into a woman I did my undergrad with a few months ago, a girl who was at the time thought to be gorgeous by every guy who met her, and in my opinion she actually looks better in her mid-thirties than she did in her early twenties. She got even better with age.  In my opinion, I look better in my thirties than I did in my twenties. Of course, I’ve also known men and women who looked good in their twenties who just let themselves go completely, and then there are those who remain at a pretty equilibrium stable level throughout their twenties, thirties, and forties. It all depends on a combination of genetics and lifestyle decisions.

          So no, as a man I’ve never subscribed to some universal rule which states that men get better with age while women deteriorate; that’s nonsense.

          That said, the unfortunate reality is that given the traits that society tends to emphasize as important in men and women, and given the some-what different qualities that men and women look for in a mate, the truth is that there is more room for men to improve with age than there is for women. In my experience women are attracted to the following traits: 1). Sex appeal (looks, style, ‘chemistry,’), 2). Confidence (humor, conversational skills, intelligence, etc), 3). Social status (ambition, income, power, wealth, etc).

          Men, on the other hand, are simply attracted to 1). Looks; 2). Personality (easy going, laid back, accepting, fun, etc).

          A man who is lacking completely in confidence and sex appeal can still work like hell to attain some degree of social status and then attract a certain type of woman (not the type that I’d be interested in, but that’s irrelevant). A woman who is lacking in looks and personality is pretty much out of luck (unless she takes drastic measures to work on her appearance) because men in general don’t care about how much money you make or what your CV look like.

        5. Tron Swanson

          GWTF,

          Wait, where did I say that other shaming wasn’t taking place? I didn’t–I said that shaming isn’t effective. Which, IMHO, it usually isn’t. You’re responding to an argument that I didn’t actually make.

        6. KK

          Tron,

          You and your like-minded bros are so completely clueless, it’s mind boggling. I can’t help but laugh. You have repeatedly made derogatory comments about women but seem offended (upset?) that women have zero empathy for you. Your latest comment regarding one’s sanity and marriage is an attempted insult aimed at Evan. For the record, I’m not personally offended by any of the dribble you constantly spout. I just consider the source and have a little giggle because it’s hard to believe an adult could be so completely clueless.

        7. GoWiththeFlow

          Tron,

          “Wait, where did I say that other shaming wasn’t taking place? I didn’t–I said that shaming isn’t effective.”

          You’re being dishonest here.

          You said to Marika, “Do you find that shaming is an effective tactic?”  right under the post where Buck said Marika was shaming him about his preference for much younger women because he finds women his age repulsive.  It wasn’t a question asked outside of any context.

        8. Buck25

          Well, I see that at least someone else (YAM) went and looked up what I’ve been talking about with regard to the drumbeat of bashing older men here. Regardless of your comments about “whataboutism”, GWTF, (nice attempt at deflection), when women here cut and slash at older men that much, without rebuttal from their own side of the fence, you can hardly expect older men not to respond in kind when the opportunity presents. Dish it out (or tacitly approve of it-silence is consent), and you shouldn’t be surprised if it comes back from the other side. Sounds  a lot like “We can, but you better not!” to me

        9. KK

          Buck,

          Silence on a particular blog post comment doesn’t MEAN anything. I have regularly called out ignorance or downright stupidity from both male and female commenters and earned a reputation (according to a couple of people here, anyway) as an ass××××. It’s simply not true. I can disagree respectfully with anyone. I try to compliment people who are particularly insightful. I’m only rude to people who are rude to me or hateful towards an entire gender; male OR female. Doesn’t matter. A lot of people simply won’t engage with ignorance and have earned a better reputation because of it. Just my humble observation.

        10. KK

          YAM,

          “If you read the body of work that is Evan’s blog, you will discover that the balance of hate when it comes to older members of the dating pool is on the female side of the equation”.

          That certainly isn’t what I’ve read. Quite the opposite. Whatever post you’re referring to, I will speculate as to the likelihood of whatever nasty comments you read. Either those women were personally attacked or their age and gender was attacked and they responded with equal ugliness OR if completely unprovoked, they’re just mean, so disregard.

          “Could it be that an older man is not led around by his penis like a younger man; therefore, he is more trustworthy”?

          Not according to the older, single male commenters on here. Their penis is making their decisions. Trustworthiness has ZERO to do with age, libido or virility. Trustworthiness does not present itself by claiming proudly the ability to manipulate younger women.

          “Could it be that a reduction in testosterone leads to a kinder, gentler man who is willing to actually listen to a woman and care about her needs?”

          By your own admission, that doesn’t apply to you. You’ve claimed multiple times you have no desire to listen to a woman nor do you care about her needs and bemoan that as not being worth “the price of admission”.

          “I am a couple of orders of magnitude more patient than I was before I married, nor am I as quick to get jealous, and I was not exactly a young man when I married”.

          Again… Lol! You just recently stated how a woman you had known all of 6 weeks (who you had not even had sex with) brought out extreme jealousy in you.

           

           

           

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck

          “Well, I see that at least someone else (YAM) went and looked up what I’ve been talking about with regard to the drumbeat of bashing older men here. “

          Yes, and as YAG reported back, none of the women on that post making mean comments on older men and viagra are any of the women commenting on this post.  Therefore “whataboutism” taking the behaviors of one person or group and using it to condemn another group that has not engaged in that behavior.

          KK, Emily, Henriette, KE, Katie, Stacy2, Stacy, Sparkling Emerald, and many more have all defended men at one time or another on this blog.

  16. 16
    Jeremy

    There seems to be a lack of understanding of what marriage – a good marriage – should look like.  What it provides to both the man and the woman involved.  When I read comments from some men implying that the only thing marriage is good for is sex, I realize that some people just don’t get it.  And when I read comments from some women about wanting to cut men out of their life when they get old so they can enjoy the things they actually like, I shake my head.

     

    A good marriage is so much more than sex.  A good marriage is having a partner.  A person with whom you build a home, have and raise children, experience life.  A person who knows you as well (or better) than you know yourself.  A person who makes you happy both by giving and receiving.  It is finding a helpmate to be your other half in doing the work that life entails.  It is finding a playmate to enjoy the leisure and fun that life can provide.  It is finding a mindmate to help you come up with ideas to better yourself and your life.  It is finding a soulmate that you want to spend your life with and could not imagine your life without.  This is not me blowing some airy-fairy theoretical marriage fantasy – this is marriage, as I experience it every day and as others who have a good spouse and good attitude do.

     

    My house is not brand new.  There are scratches on some of the walls and imperfections here and there.  I look at the dings on my basement wall and remember when my son threw his baseball at the wall and caused them.  Each imperfection is a memory, each memory brings happiness.  My wife’s body may not be exactly the same as it was when we first married, but each line and imperfection is a memory, each memory makes me happy.  Hopefully she feels the same about my imperfections, because God knows I have them.

     

    How much of our own misery comes from our own attitudes? How much of our unhappiness comes from misunderstanding what will actually make us happy?

    1. 16.1
      Stacy

      @Jeremy

      Your wife is so friggin’ lucky.

       

    2. 16.2
      KK

      Again, Jeremy,

      So refreshing to read your comments on here! 😊

      1. 16.2.1
        Shaukat

        @kk

        You’ve got the two Stacys mixed up again.

        1. KK

          LOL. Thank you, Shaukat!! 😊

      2. 16.2.2
        Jeremy

        Thanks for the kind words, KK.  Blushing (slightly) 🙂

    3. 16.3
      Yet Another Man

      @Jeremy

      Here is the problem.  All of the blemishes that you cherish mean squat after one divorces.  They were incurred for someone who is no longer part of the picture.  We now have to sell our worn selves to another person who does not see our blemishes as memories.  He/she sees them as imperfections.  That is the world in which divorced people live.

      If you want a real wake up call, spend an afternoon reading female profiles on a dating site.   It will be an eye-opening experience.  Women list attributes for their desired man like they are accessorizing an outfit.  They never bother to take the time to describe what they have to offer a man in return.  Evan is correct when he states that women rule out most of the male population with their check lists.

       

      A first date with a previously married woman, especially an older one, is akin to being tested for every disqualifier she has amassed in her life time.  Say the wrong thing, even if it is not meant in the way that sets off the trigger, and the date is over.    Please tell me why a man would subject himself to that kind of scrutiny.  Life is too short to deal with that kind of nonsense.

      1. 16.3.1
        Stacy2

        A first date with a previously married woman, especially an older one, is akin to being tested for every disqualifier she has amassed in her life time.  

        Yes, I have always said that the primary reason men are attracted to younger women is because they’re still inexperienced and dumb and it is easier to bullshit them. But try it with a woman who’s been around the block and it falls flat, doesn’t it? Must be very frustrating.

        1. Jeremy

          Yes.  It is easier for younger women to admire a (somewhat) older and more accomplished man than it is for an older, more accomplished woman to do so.  One can respect, but not admire, an equal.  And men crave admiration – to varying degrees.  This is a skill that women should hone if they aspire to make a man happy.

           

          Of course, women should not aspire to make a man happy if he does not return the favor.  And if it rankles the woman to show admiration, she can take some consolation in the fact that men need to learn all sorts of skills (that don’t come naturally to them) to make women happy too.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          “Yes.  It is easier for younger women to admire a (somewhat) older and more accomplished man than it is for an older, more accomplished woman to do so.”

          I disagree.  Not only can an older woman admire a man’s accomplishments, she can do so from the viewpoint of someone who has experienced much in life and knows exactly how much blood, sweat, and tears went into those efforts.  A young woman sees the end product.  An older woman can understand and empathize with a man’s struggle to achieve that end point.

        3. Chance

          Stacy2,

          “Yes, I have always said that the primary reason men are attracted to younger women is because they’re still inexperienced and dumb and it is easier to bullshit them.”

          No, it’s because that’s what men biologically prefer.  It’s natures way of saying “If you can’t reproduce with the most fertile women, then you don’t need to reproduce at all.”  Men override their base biological drives when they pursue older women for other qualities that these women potentially possess (depending on the individual woman).

        4. KK

          GWTF,

          I understand where you’re coming from but I agree with Jeremy on this one. A 25 year old woman who just entered the work force is going to be much more impressed with a 35 year old (man) insurance agent making 80 grand a year than a 35 year old (woman) making the same or close to it. It doesn’t mean the 35 year old woman doesn’t respect him for holding down a J.O.B. or that she doesn’t respect what it took for him to get to that point thus far, but he is still a peer, which would (or should) translate to mutual respect. That’s much different than admiration. A successful 35 year old woman can go to a 5 star restaurant any time she wants. She will appreciate being taken there on a date but she’s not going to be as impressed as someone who has a steady diet of ramen noodles. Lol.

        5. GoWiththeFlow

          KK,

          Except most of life isn’t spent in 5 star restaurants.  It’s the kids’ carpool, who gets dinner on the table, what are the plans for summer vacation, what the monthly food budget is, and the ins and outs of daily life.  That glowing “Oh my goodness I’ve never been to a fancy restaurant before!” look on a young date’s face is an admiration that is fleeting.  Compare that to a woman who admires the risks taken, and the hard work a man put in to make his business successful because she has know struggles in life herself.  It’s admiration based on understanding and empathy, not on illusion and fantasy.

        6. KK

          GWTF,

          I agree! That’s why those relationships fizzle UNLESS there’s more to admire than just success (whatever that is in her eyes) and a deeper connection is formed. That’s why those mail order brides don’t stick around for long either.

          But a peer needs to be admired for something that is unique to him IMHO. She can respect and appreciate what he does for a living but that isn’t admiration if they’re equally successful. Maybe he’s street smart or handy around the house or plays an instrument. Whatever it is, it’s a quality or talent she doesn’t have.

        7. Buck25

          “But try it with a woman who’s been around the block, and it falls flat, doesn’t it?” 

          Not always; you just wish it did. Truth is, a man who knows how can manipulate a woman of any age. Extremely young women (under 30 or so) are usually so easy it’s not even sporting. One can however, with practice, manipulate 45 or 55 year old women with equal ease, assuming the target is at least somewhat receptive in the first place. I know, because I’ve experimented with doing it, just to see if I could, and it works a reasonable percentage of the time. You know the old saying, “You can’t con an honest man”? Well, you can’t con an honest woman either, but, a man sure CAN con the woman who is looking to get far more than she’s willing to give.

        8. Stacy2

          @Chance

          If you can’t reproduce with the most fertile women, then you don’t need to reproduce at all.

          Do you understand how big of a load of bullshit this is? Men are petrified, and I do mean petrified, of getting a woman pregnant. It seems to me, that they have overcome their biological urges to procreate quite successfully, and may be too well. You don’t get to claim that you’re driven by your desire to procreate and then lock your used condom in  safe. I am sorry, you just can’t. Oops, not sorry. See: this is a difference between an older woman like myself and a 23-yo version of me. The younger me could’ve bought your BS. The today me calls you out on it.

        9. Stacy2

          @ Jeremy:

           And men crave admiration – to varying degrees.  This is a skill that women should hone if they aspire to make a man happy.

          They sure do. Nailed it. And that is exactly the problem, Jeremy, the problem is men’s desire for cheap admiration irrespective of whether they’re actually doing anything that is in any way impressive. A Joe Schmo who needs to be “admired” even though he’s nothing other than super ordinary is no different than a woman who needs to be told she’s the hottest woman on the planet (wasn’t that a topic of another blog post here?). This ego stroking gets exhausting. The fact that  (most) men are ruled by their dicks and that (most) men require this ego stroking is what makes it, at the end of the day, so hard to respect most men as rational humans.

          As an aside, a long time ago I read an interview with some rich guy, new money kinds, who said that he was taking his young teenage daughter to all the top restaurants, shopping, trips, etc. – because he feared that if he didn’t do it, some douchebag would come along, show it all to her and she’d be easily smitten by the novelty of all these luxuries. So he wanted her to be used to it, and not fall for the first guy who’d show all that life to her. I remember thinking what a smart dad that was. I guess he knew how men are. Takes one to know one, huh?

        10. Jeremy

          @Stacy2.  I don’t want “cheap” admiration.  I want legitimate admiration.  If my wife complements me for saying something intelligent (and I did, in fact, say something intelligent) then that is validating.  If my wife complements me on my washboard abs and I don’t have washboard abs, the complement not only rings hollow but it makes me feel self-conscious.  Would you still feel so contemptuous of men’s need for admiration if you found a man you could legitimately admire?

           

          I had two struggles when learning about what makes women attracted to men.  The first struggle was learning the “how” – what to actually do to make a woman attracted to me.  That was the easy part.  The second and harder struggle was learning how to feel about doing so.  To me, a mature man is a man who puts the wants and needs of his loved ones above his own.  So when I discovered that women are more attracted to men who are “their own man” and establish and enforce boundaries, I felt contemptuous.  This attraction that women have is irrational!  It will lead to their own unhappiness!  It took me time to realize that although my criticisms may be correct, they are only a small part of any individual woman’s psyche and that I can choose when to cater to them.  We are all somewhat prone to the irrationalities of our ev0-psych.  Part of loving someone is giving them what they need, as long as they return the favour.

        11. Stacy2

          @Jeremy:

          I don’t want “cheap” admiration.  I want legitimate admiration.

          Fair enough. Then you should be legitimately better than me at something, preferably something valuable. I once dated an ex-pilot and consequently could fly and drive just about any machine there is up and including jetliners and had by far superior navigation skills. I admired him for those skills. I also once dated a guy who could speak 5 languages, play an instrument and had a PhD. Obviously I admired him for that. I also once dated a guy who did none of those things, but was very smart in my own field. I considered him smarter than I was. I admired him for that. Etc. I would like to have a guy i could admire for something, problem is, admiration is relative – like you said –  he needs to have a skill or quality I myself do not possess. And about 98% of men or so simply don’t have any. Which is ok – i can settle for respectfully equal relationship – but for men it’s not enough, they’re nothing special but they want to be admired nonetheless.

        12. Evan Marc Katz

          Kindness and patience are admirable qualities, Stacy. Wasn’t obvious to me and it seems it’s not obvious to you.

        13. Chance

          @Stacy2, it’s not BS.  In fact, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could argue with such an obvious statement on my part.  Go look at the most popular pornogaphic actresses out there today…. what percentage of them are over 25?  Hell, what percentage are over 22?  This isn’t a result of discrimination against older women.  It’s what men want on a base biological level, and it doesn’t matter what his age is:  12 y/o boys, 22 y/o men, 40 y/o men, 75 y/o men….they all want to see 18-21 y/o girls naked.  These are the most fertile women, and thousands of years of evolution have taught us that this is the most efficient path towards self-preservation as a species.  It doesn’t matter if men are scared of getting women pregnant today because the reasons they are afraid are the result of man-made conventions (e.g., child support).  I’m wondering if you were even being serious with that supposed counterpoint.

           

          When a man seeks out a 35 y/o woman for a relationship, he is doing so for reasons outside of his base biological drive.  One would think that women would find this to be a positive revelation since we often hear them complain about not being appreciated for anything other than sex.

        14. Stacy2

          @Chance

          Go look at the most popular pornogaphic actresses out there today…. what percentage of them are over 25?  

          Uhm.. no thanks? FWIW, i don’t have anything against porn and I am well aware of the content of adult video web-sites, including the fact that there’re a lot of older women featured there, in fact. Do you “research” LOL. Though i have no interest in debating porn actresses with you.

          The point is that men do not chose women or formulate their behavior based on some prime biological urges. They do it based on societal constructs  – hence locking condoms in a safe and wanting women who’re easier to bullshit, none of this has anything in common with your alleged drive to procreate (you don’t have it. please just stop the BS).

        15. Chance

          Stacy2, to make sure I understand:  you’re saying that many men prefer younger women not because that is what they biologically prefer, but rather, it is part of some fiendish plot on the part of men to manipulate women?

        16. KK

          Stacy2,

          I find this comment interesting because earlier you complimented Jeremy by telling him his wife is so “friggin lucky”. Why did you say that? Is it possible that you “admire” his ability to understand himself and others? Or his kindness? Or his sincere desire to be a great husband? His depth and substance? The point? These aren’t tangible qualities. (I’m not trying to blow sunshine, just pointing out what we’ve all observed).

          What good is someone (in a relationship) if they can speak 5 languages but can’t communicate effectively with you? What good is a pilot’s license if they’re never home? Yes, those are impressive “accomplishments”, but on their own they don’t have much value. There has to be something more. (Apologizing, Jeremy, for continually using you as an example…) None of us have any idea what Jeremy does for a living or how much money he has and guess what, it doesn’t matter. Those intangible qualities he possesses are so much more valuable than anything else. Some of those guys who you dismiss as Joe schmo’s might just be more worthy of your respect and admiration than some of those wealthy goobers just because they have some impressive credentials.

           

        17. Stacy2

          @KK

          I find this comment interesting because earlier you complimented Jeremy by telling him his wife is so “friggin lucky”.

          No, i didn’t. I didn’t write that, which makes of all your subsequent speculations irrelevant

        18. KK

          Stacy2,

          Yes, Shaukat pointed out that Stacy(1) complimented Jeremy. So the first part of my response to you doesn’t apply. Agreed.

          I don’t believe that makes the rest of my comment irrelevant. The bulk of my comment was in response to the three guys you once admired and:

          “I would like to have a guy i could admire for something, problem is, admiration is relative – like you said –  he needs to have a skill or quality I myself do not possess. And about 98% of men or so simply don’t have any”.

        19. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Is it possible that you “admire” his ability to understand himself and others? Or his kindness?

          Those are definitely qualities to admire, particularly his emotional intelligence. Things to admire in a man don’t have to be a skill or a talent necessarily but a personal quality.

        20. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          One study done showed MILF was the most searched for type of porn.  Don’t think may 22 year olds qualify for MILF status 😉

          http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/revealed-10-most-popular-porn-searches-america-and-world

          And as Evan has documented on posts on this site, women’s fertility really doesn’t start going down until 38 or 39.  Which also makes evolutionary biological sense.  Women who had longer fertile years had more children, and those children inherited, and in turn passed this down through the ages.  So there’s a certain amount of BS to the argument that men’s preference for women in in their early 20s is solely biological.  Socialization is involved too.

        21. Chance

          GWTF,

           

          Go search the most popular porn actresses out there today.  Almost all of them are under 25 (most are 22 or under).  Also, MILF was #2 on your list…. sandwiched right between teen and college.  Milf porn is popular because it has a sense of attainability, which is the whole reason the “cougar” dynamic is popular to begin with….. it is a rejection buffer for insecure men.  Their “preference” for older women is really just an aversion to getting rejected by the younger women that men biologically prefer.

           

          Not sure where you’re getting your info, but my research tells me that women’s fertility decreases throughout their 20s and 30s in that a woman’s odds of becoming pregnant in one try decreases throughout that period.  Attraction isn’t a choice, and since I’m a man, I’d like to think that I know more about what is attractive to men than you.  There is no (or, at least, it’s negligible) socialization in a man’s biological preference for younger women.

           

          Look, it’s one thing to say that women over a certain age are “useless”, “disgusting”, etc., but it’s completely different to be in willful denial about what men find most physically attractive on a root biological level.  I’d say roughly 75% of women out there who are capable of turning heads are 25 and under, 95% of those women are under 30, and 99% percent of those women are under 40.  That isn’t to say that women cannot look very nice (head-turner or not) into her 70s…..  But. Come. On.

        22. KK

          “Milf porn is popular because it has a sense of attainability, which is the whole reason the “cougar” dynamic is popular to begin with….. it is a rejection buffer for insecure men”.

          Wait… didn’t you say your girlfriend is older than you?

          “Their “preference” for older women is really just an aversion to getting rejected by the younger women that men biologically prefer”.

          Interesting. Are these facts or just personal opinions?

           

        23. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          In the porn search article MILF appeared in the top 10 searches in every state.  Thanks for letting me know your opinion that MILFs are the consolation prize in porn. . . because the guys apparently can’t figure out how to type “teen” or “college coed” into a porn search engine. . . I guess?

          “I’d say roughly 75% of women out there who are capable of turning heads are 25 and under, 95% of those women are under 30, and 99% percent of those women are under 40.”

          Yet a lot of men wind up procreating with the non-head turners.  Even the plainest Janes will work just fine as a means to get a man’s DNA transmitted to the next generation.

          As for female fertility, the Atlantic writeup that Evan quoted in one of his posts on age and fertility is linked below.  I highly recommend it.  It not only covers what is truly scientifically known about fertility, but the huge shortcomings of some widely quoted “studies” in the MSM.  here is a quick blurb:

          “One study, published in Obstetrics & Gynecology in 2004 and headed by David Dunson (now of Duke University), examined the chances of pregnancy among 770 European women. It found that with sex at least twice a week, 82 percent of 35-to-39-year-old women conceive within a year, compared with 86 percent of 27-to-34-year-olds. (The fertility of women in their late 20s and early 30s was almost identical—news in and of itself.)”

          https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/07/how-long-can-you-wait-to-have-a-baby/309374/?single_page=true

          Chance, I don’t disagree at all that young pretty women are guaranteed to turn men’s heads and if my grandma were alive she wouldn’t.  I disagree that this is exclusively 100% due to biology.  There are physical characteristics and signs in women that are correlated with fertility.  But many of the determinants of what is considered beauty in a woman vary from culture to culture and change over time.  You can have two young women of the same height with 0.7 WHRs (a known attractant to men that is correlated with fertility)  but one is a size 6 and the other is a 12.  In some countries/cultures, the size 6 would be the head turner, in another the 12 is the prize.

          It’s not just biology but also socialization that determines the parameters of what is attractive in a in a society.

          “Attraction isn’t a choice, and since I’m a man, I’d like to think that I know more about what is attractive to men than you.”

          LOL!!!  The women on this post have been saying what is and is not attractive to us as individuals and a group, but we are being told by some very vocal men that men’s attractiveness improves with age.  So I guess only men know what men find attractive in women, and men know what women find attractive in men.  Got it 😉

        24. Chance

          Btw, GWTF, most of those actresses in those “MILF” movies are like 27-35.  It’s not uncommon for an actress to play a teen from 18-23, and then migrate to playing a “MILF” around five years later.

           

          KK, when a young guy is chasing what is considered to be a “cougar”, she is generally 15, 20, 25+ years older than him.  My girlfriend in three years older than me.  I’m also not young.  I’m also in a relationship with her as opposed to trolling for sex (which is what we have been talking about here…. what men biologically prefer for sex).  Nice try, though.

           

          “Are these facts or just personal opinions?”

           

          They are facts based on many years of observation.  Almost no man on this planet who is looking for sex (and nothing else) is going to actually prefer an average 40 y/0 woman to the average 20 y/o woman.  I’ll remind you and GWTF that I was originally responding to Stacy2’s absurd claim that men who intentionally seek out younger women do so because they can “BS” them.  Fascinating that you two are taking issue with my stance instead, which should be fairly obvious to anyone who isn’t lying to themselves.

        25. KK

          I was just surprised you would make a statement correlating a man’s insecurity to not seeking a younger woman who he is “biologically” more attracted to, especially given your aversion to marriage.

          Stacy2 wasn’t the only one who made that claim. Buck said more than once how easy it is to manipulate younger women. Why not challenge a man making the claim instead of a woman who is echoing back what she just read ON HERE by a MAN.

           

        26. Chance

          EMK said:  “Touche!”

           

          Not really.  GWTF is taking Buck25’s and YAG’s points here and she is making them mine with this comment:

           

          “LOL!!!  The women on this post have been saying what is and is not attractive to us as individuals and a group, but we are being told by some very vocal men that men’s attractiveness improves with age.  So I guess only men know what men find attractive in women, and men know what women find attractive in men.  Got it 😉”

           

          I’m not saying that men’s physical attractiveness improves with age.  Since the beginning here, I have been replying to Stacy2’s absurdity (which, admittedly, is a waste of time).

           

           

          GWTF said:  “Yet a lot of men wind up procreating with the non-head turners.  Even the plainest Janes will work just fine as a means to get a man’s DNA transmitted to the next generation.”

           

          Holy s***.  I’ve been saying from the very start that this has nothing to do with who makes the best long-term partners, which is obviously whom with we are most likely to procreate.

           
          GWTF said:  “One study, published in Obstetrics & Gynecology in 2004 and headed by David Dunson (now of Duke University), examined the chances of pregnancy among 770 European women. It found that with sex at least twice a week, 82 percent of 35-to-39-year-old women conceive within a year, compared with 86 percent of 27-to-34-year-olds. (The fertility of women in their late 20s and early 30s was almost identical—news in and of itself.)”

           

          So, pretty much, when there’s a divergence between studies, we all (including you and me) will believe the ones that confirm our worldview.  Also, one year is a long time, and that can cloud true estimates of fertility.  If you shorten that to the likelihood of getting pregnant within one month, one can see that the differences in fertility by age differ more notably.

           

          “But many of the determinants of what is considered beauty in a woman vary from culture to culture and change over time.  You can have two young women of the same height with 0.7 WHRs (a known attractant to men that is correlated with fertility)  but one is a size 6 and the other is a 12.  In some countries/cultures, the size 6 would be the head turner, in another the 12 is the prize.”

           

          This is true when it comes to many physical characteristics, but I’ll leave it to you to provide me with one example of a time or culture where older women were seen as being more beautiful than younger women because I can’t think of one.

        27. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          The thing is, Chance, (and I don’t know how old you are), but if you are either wealthy or successful enough to land a much younger and very attractive woman or are very handsome yourself or extremely sexy and have “that thing,” (by that I mean a Richard Gere quality where you ooze sex appeal), good for you. Everyone is trying to land the most appealing partner possible.

        28. Chance

          KK,

           

          “I was just surprised you would make a statement correlating a man’s insecurity to not seeking a younger woman who he is “biologically” more attracted to, especially given your aversion to marriage.”

           

          Uh uh.  I made a statement that correlated a man’s insecurity to seeking a much older woman (for sexual encounters).  Also, I am as pro-monogamous life partner as anyone here.

           

           

          “Stacy2 wasn’t the only one who made that claim. Buck said more than once how easy it is to manipulate younger women. Why not challenge a man making the claim instead of a woman who is echoing back what she just read ON HERE by a MAN.”

           

          I saw Stacy2’s comment.  Not Buck’s.  Also, Stacy2 isn’t just echoing back what she read on here by a man.  Her exact words were “I have always said that the primary reason men are attracted to younger women is because they’re still inexperienced and dumb and it is easier to bullshit them.”  

           

          Pretty sure that doesn’t say:  “I learned from Buck25 that it’s easier to BS women”.

        29. Shaukat

          You don’t get to claim that you’re driven by your desire to procreate and then lock your used condom in  a safe.

          That was actually pretty funny. Sorry Chance, but gotta give credit where credit is due!

          However, the statement highlights a common misunderstanding about how evolution actually works. Evolutionary processes take millions of years, and the end result  doesn’t suddenly change just because the social context shifts. Homo-sapiens evolved during the Pleistocene period, and sexual selection strategies reflected that particular environment, which was largely free from modern social conventions. Natural selection would have favoured strategies that maximized reproductive success, and base instincts and impulses associated with specific behaviors would have been passed on; the modern environment wouldn’t alter this fact, though with the emergence of consciousness such instincts could be subsumed.

          Here’s an analogy that can help elucidate this point: Body fat stores evolved as an adaption to help humans deal with the problem of periodic famines, which were quite frequent during the hunter-gatherer era. Food was very scarce then, so this adaptation makes sense. The body still fights tooth and nail to hold onto it’s last body fat stores, because it views them as essential for survival, even though now most people in Western societies live in an environment of abundance, not scarcity.

          Likewise, there are valid biological reasons as to why men continue to be sexually attracted to young fertile women, despite the  fact that in today’s social context singlet men (and most women as well) are petrified of accidental pregnancies. I also agree with GWTF that socialization plays a huge role in generating attraction, but that’s  a different post.

           

        30. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          Good grief, read the darn Atlantic article.  Be open to challenges to something you believe in.  I am hardly citing only a study that I agree with versus properly done studies that show something to the contrary.  I also once believed the “statistic” that fertility started rapidly declining at 27 until I read two posts Evan has on age and fertility and looked at the cited research.

          “Also, one year is a long time, and that can cloud true estimates of fertility.  If you shorten that to the likelihood of getting pregnant within one month, one can see that the differences in fertility by age differ more notably.”

          Chance, the probability of a woman getting pregnant over a one year period of time in which she engages in regular sex IS THE GOLD STANDARD in how fertility is measured.  The second sentence is complete nonsense scientifically.  It’s the opposite that is true.

          “GWTF said:  ‘Yet a lot of men wind up procreating with the non-head turners.  Even the plainest Janes will work just fine as a means to get a man’s DNA transmitted to the next generation.’”

          “Holy s***.  I’ve been saying from the very start that this has nothing to do with who makes the best long-term partners, which is obviously whom with we are most likely to procreate.”

          My statement had nothing to do with whether a child is born to a plain Jane from a ONS or a 40 year marriage.  You maintain that what women men find attractive is 100% biologically driven.  If so, the biological imperative is to pass on your genes to the next generation.  This imperative is served if a woman is attractive or unattractive by her culture’s standards, as long as she is fertile.

          Which brings me to this:

          “I’ll leave it to you to provide me with one example of a time or culture where older women were seen as being more beautiful than younger women because I can’t think of one”

          I am challenging your stance that men are biologically driven to find only VERY YOUNG women attractive.  You cite the popularity of porn actresses in their early 20s as proof of this in addition to the statement:  “I’d say roughly 75% of women out there who are capable of turning heads are 25 and under, 95% of those women are under 30, and 99% percent of those women are under 40.”

          But, since this is supposed to be purely biologically driven, and there is only a 4-6% drop-off in modern fertility studies between fertility rates in women in their 30s versus their 20s, then it makes biological sense that more that 4% of your hypothetical head turners would be in the 30 to 38 range.  You wouldn’t see a huge drop off at age 25.  Because statistically if your genes are itching to be passed down to some offspring, your chances are virtually just as good with a 35 year old woman as a 25 year old.  (Especially if socialization and cultural norms leads to stiff male competition for the women in their early 20s.)  So this shifting of the attractiveness age range down to favor women in their early 20s I would theorize, is mostly due to socialization and cultural norms, because the biological imperative is satisfied over a broader age range.

          “GWTF is taking Buck25’s and YAG’s points here and she is making them mine with this comment:

           “’LOL!!!  The women on this post have been saying what is and is not attractive to us as individuals and a group, but we are being told by some very vocal men that men’s attractiveness improves with age.  So I guess only men know what men find attractive in women, and men know what women find attractive in men.  Got it 😉’”

          “I’m not saying that men’s physical attractiveness improves with age.”

          Chance, sorry it wasn’t clear.  I in no way meant to imply that you think men’s physical attractiveness improves with age.  I was just struck by the irony some men were maintaining that their attractiveness improved with age in comments on the same blog post where women’s attractiveness decreasing with age is also being commented on.

          Lastly this, “Almost no man on this planet who is looking for sex (and nothing else) is going to actually prefer an average 40 y/0 woman to the average 20 y/o woman.”

          I don’t doubt that at all because we’re talking theoretical fantasy.  In my theoretical fantasy the 22 year old Calvin Klein underwear model version of Travis Fimmel is exponentially more attractive that the 37 year old Vikings version.  Although I certainly wouldn’t turn down the later model 😉  But the reality is there’s no chance in hell I would land either version.  And next week I will see and meet middle aged men with non-celerity status, with average jobs, and average earnings and I will find some of them attractive.  Very attractive even.  Even though some of my friends wouldn’t consider them so.  (Emily and I have already established that we could go out together to meet guys and we wouldn’t be competition for each other because we have very different tastes.) Because what happened IRL with who were attracted to is so much more complicated that just our “selfish genes'” drive to replicate themselves.  Culture and socialization are involved as well as psychological phenomenon like imprinting and “love maps” and of course the role of personality.

           

        31. Chance

          Shaukat, I agree with everything you said – even where you agree with GWTF that what is considered physically attractive can be heavily influenced by culture.  However, I asked her to provide one example of a culture or time where older women (let’s say 40) are/were considered to be more attractive than younger women (let’s say 20).  I haven’t received a response.  If I get one, I will happily reconsider.

           

          GWTF, I did read the article, and I don’t really disagree with any of it.  Now, are you willing to be open to something that challenges your belief?  I’ve never thought that a woman’s ability to conceive over an entire freaking year would differ very much by age throughout a woman’s 20s and 30s, but unfortunately, it doesn’t tell me very much about women’s fertility (“gold standard” or not).  I get it, it’s an article written by a woman who desperately wants to believe that fertility doesn’t decline with age as much as she originally thought.

           

          “Chance, the probability of a woman getting pregnant over a one year period of time in which she engages in regular sex IS THE GOLD STANDARD in how fertility is measured.  The second sentence is complete nonsense scientifically.  It’s the opposite that is true.”

           

          Basic math skills proves that my statement isn’t nonsense at all.  This “gold standard” that you refer to is like pointing out that a .200 hitter and a .400 hitter have a similar probability of getting a hit over the course of an entire week (~6 games in baseball).  If someone takes this information as meaning that these two hitters have roughly the same probability of getting a hit in any particular game, that person isn’t thinking very hard.

           

          My understanding is that a 25 y/o woman’s chances of getting pregnant in a month are about 25%, while a 35 y/o woman’s chances are around 15% (under similar qualifications as what is noted in the study, if memory serves).  That’s a 40% decline in the likelihood of getting pregnant in one month’s time.  I’ll let you tell me if this is wrong.

           

          “You maintain that what women men find attractive is 100% biologically driven.  If so, the biological imperative is to pass on your genes to the next generation.  This imperative is served if a woman is attractive or unattractive by her culture’s standards, as long as she is fertile.”

           

          The first sentence up there, I did not say.  I actually agreed with you that what we are attracted to isn’t entirely driven by biology, but I asked you to provide one example of where older women were seen as being more attractive than younger women.  Didn’t get a response.  Don’t worry… I’ll wait.

           

          The rest of your comment shown above just reinforces my point.  A man is biologically programmed to spread his seed far and wide, and therefore, he must find someone who possesses the strongest ability to conceive very quickly (I highly doubt that a man stuck around with the same woman for an entire year in our feral past, but again, if you have information to show that this is inaccurate, I will happily reconsider) before he moves on to the next woman.

           

          As it relates to your last paragraph in the comment above, go back to my original response to Stacy2, and you’ll see that you’re basically saying the exact same thing that I said.  You appear to be so consumed with the idea that someone had the gall and temerity to point out that men are biologically attracted to younger women that you’ve lost sight of my original point.

        32. KK

          “Milf porn is popular because it has a sense of attainability, which is the whole reason the “cougar” dynamic is popular to begin with….. it is a rejection buffer for insecure men.  Their “preference” for older women is really just an aversion to getting rejected by the younger women that men biologically prefer”.

          There are logical problems with these statements. First and foremost, unless you have data to show what age men (and what percentages of each) are watching MILF porn, your theory falls flat. Just because it’s MILF porn, it doesn’t automatically mean that only much younger men are watching. And before you insult my intelligence, please re-read your own statements first. The other issue is your arm chair psychology. You have absolutely zero basis on which to make those claims. So I’ll match you by making my own personal assumption. I think that what someone chooses to watch in the privacy of their own home would be more indicative of what they’re truly attracted to. I don’t think it’s quite as complex as you’re trying to make it out to be. Guy looks for porn. Guy sees attractive woman. Guy watches porn. The end. I doubt his issues of insecurity have anything to do with what he chooses to watch.

          “I saw Stacy2’s comment.  Not Buck’s.  Also, Stacy2 isn’t just echoing back what she read on here by a man.  Her exact words were “I have always said that the primary reason men are attracted to younger women is because they’re still inexperienced and dumb and it is easier to bullshit them.”  

          It doesn’t matter. Buck also said it’s easier to manipulate younger women. Maybe it offends you because it isn’t something you would consider, but it’s pretty common and a lot of men will readily admit to it.

        33. Emily, the original

          GWTF,

          And next week I will see and meet middle aged men with non-celerity status, with average jobs, and average earnings and I will find some of them attractive.  Very attractive even.

          You must be very insecure to find an average, middle-aged man attractive.  (  🙂 )

          If you don’t mind me saying so, you’re shouting into a barrel. For some people, attraction is based solely on physical appearance. There is no accounting for type, personality or chemistry. And that’s fine because those aren’t the people you’d be interested in anyway.

        34. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          Go to medpub and look at actual fertility studies.  You cannot equate baseball statistics with fertility statistics.  What a joke.  The human body is a complex biological system.  A woman can have a viral infection one month (fever, activated immune system) or an especially stressful time another month (elevated cortisol levels suppress FSH/LH feedback loop) that can interfere with ovulation.  And she needs a healthy male partner and ups and downs in his health status will affect sperm.  In a study with many women small temporary health factors will seriously screw with numbers on a month only bases.  Since almost all women in a study (and their partners0 will experience colds and flus, stressful weeks, and other negative but temporary health events over the period of a year, it’s a built in control.  When gynecologists counsel patients they will say, “If you have regular sex, your chances of getting pregnant in the next year are. . .”

          “My understanding is that a 25 y/o woman’s chances of getting pregnant in a month are about 25%, while a 35 y/o woman’s chances are around 15% (under similar qualifications as what is noted in the study, if memory serves).  That’s a 40% decline in the likelihood of getting pregnant in one month’s time.  I’ll let you tell me if this is wrong.”

          Link your study or your numbers are meaningless.  YAG did the same thing on this post, threw out a statistic but never gave a citation.

          To Shaukat you said:  “However, I asked her to provide one example of a culture or time where older women (let’s say 40) are/were considered to be more attractive than younger women (let’s say 20).  I haven’t received a response.  If I get one, I will happily reconsider.”

          Except when you were addressing comments to me you did not define “older” as 40.  Instead you repeatedly gave examples where only women in their early 20s were considered attractive and said this was biological. So you were setting the “old” bar at around 25-20.  Next time say what you mean directly and be specific.

          “You appear to be so consumed with the idea that someone had the gall and temerity (wow really overwrought language there, Chance) to point out that men are biologically attracted to younger women that you’ve lost sight of my original point”

          Except my point was not that men are not biologically attracted to younger women.  My original statement:  “So there’s a certain amount of BS to the argument that men’s preference for women in in their early 20s is solely biological.  Socialization is involved too.”  My point of contention is in your assertion that it is all biological.

        35. Chance

          GWTF,

          “Go to medpub and look at actual fertility studies.  You cannot equate baseball statistics with fertility statistics.  What a joke.”

          Admittedly, while it is optically silly to compare pregnancy to baseball, I think the analogy is still relevant.  You know damned well that it takes progressively longer to conceive as a woman ages, and this process begins around 24.  You are correct that this decline intensifies around 35-38, but the process begins much earlier than that.

          “In a study with many women small temporary health factors will seriously screw with numbers on a month only bases.  Since almost all women in a study (and their partners0 will experience colds and flus, stressful weeks, and other negative but temporary health events over the period of a year, it’s a built in control. “

          That’s not relevant because a study that contains many women would be able to mitigate this risk.  Unless the sample is wildly inappropriate, there is no reason for why 35 y/o women would all be magically sick, while 25 y/o women would not.  In other words, what you are saying doesn’t negate the stats that show a woman’s ability to conceive over the period of a month declines with age.

          “Link your study or your numbers are meaningless.  YAG did the same thing on this post, threw out a statistic but never gave a citation.”

          How about we stick with one of your sources:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8936003_Increased_Infertility_With_Age_in_Men_and_Women

          Lo, and behold, women ages 19-26 are notably more likely to get pregnant during an individual cycle.  Here’s another:

          http://uk.clearblue.com/not-pregnant-yet/stats-about-time-to-conception

          “Instead you repeatedly gave examples where only women in their early 20s were considered attractive and said this was biological.”

          Actually, I didn’t say that at all.  In fact, I said that women can be very nice looking into their 70s.

          “‘So there’s a certain amount of BS to the argument that men’s preference for women in in their early 20s is solely biological.  Socialization is involved too.’  My point of contention is in your assertion that it is all biological.”

          I misunderstood your original comment, then.  Then again, I wouldn’t take these two statements to mean exactly the same thing, either.  It’s hard to disagree with the idea that this wouldn’t be entirely, 100%, due to biology because I suppose nothing is impossible.

        36. Chance

          KK,

          “There are logical problems with these statements. First and foremost, unless you have data to show what age men (and what percentages of each) are watching MILF porn, your theory falls flat. Just because it’s MILF porn, it doesn’t automatically mean that only much younger men are watching.”

          I can partially agree with this.  It wasn’t accurate for me to conflate MILF porn with the cougar dynamic.  While I believe that the phenomenon of young men chasing much older women for sex is definitely largely a rejection buffer (with many years of observations to back this up), it wasn’t appropriate to link MILF porn to this.  I’ll remind you, though, that most of the actresses in these films aren’t actually old enough to be considered MILFs in real life.  Most of them are in their late 20s/early 30s.  These aren’t 45 y/o women that guys are watching, by and large.  The role play/thrill/kinkiness aspects of it might contribute to why it is popular.

        37. GoWiththeFlow

          Chance,

          “Lo, and behold, women ages 19-26 are notably more likely to get pregnant during an individual cycle.”

          Chance, the first study measured fertility rates over a year’s period of time, not the chances of pregnancy in an individual cycle.  The only thing that showed this chance of pregnancy per month was a graph in the second link (for a company that sells ovulation predictor tests and pregnancy tests).  It showed an estimate that a 22 year old has a 25% chance of conceiving in one cycle and by 32, that drops to a 22% chance.  OMG that’s soooooo YUGE!  Not.

          The original premise of your argument was that men are biologically driven to be attracted to very young women, 25 or under according to your porn star and head tuner examples.  This was before you upped that to 40 in your comment to Shaukat.  What both studies both show is a gradual decline through the twenties and early 30s with the big drop off in the late 30s.  So I maintain, if the only thing driving attraction in a male is the biological need to reproduce, that goal can be achieved just as well with a 32 year old as a 22 year old.  And it’s most likely overall health and not age that will account for the biggest variances between individuals of 22 or 32.  For instance an obese 22 year old who smokes (both proven to decrease fertility) vs. a non smoking 32 year old with a normal BMI.

          Since you are focusing on fertility rates for 1 cycle, is seems as if you are basing your argument that only very young women are the focus of men’s biological attraction drive because the drive is to have a one night stand.  If that were so than even that small drop between 22 and 32 year olds would become even less significant due to the fact that a woman is only fertile for a few days out of the month.  The date of the hook-up is way more likely to be on on infertile day than a fertile day. So the random chances of a man impregnating a woman form a one night stand are exponentially less than if she has sex multiple times with one partner.  Which is the relational dynamic that is studied in modern fertility studies, not some back to our hunter gatherer pasts when we lived in small tribes and were non-monogamous.

           

        38. Chance

          GWTF,

           

          The study you quoted does show the data by cycle.  The difference between you and me, apparently, is that I actually cared to look the study up, while you are relying on some woman who is writing an article to reinforce her own beliefs.  The second link I shared shows that the likelihood decreases to about 17% at 35, which is pretty consistent with my original claim, and represents a material drop (32%).  Not sure why you conveniently picked 32 because that wasn’t the basis of my original claim.

           

          Your last paragraph is mostly obfuscatory, but the first study I linked does show a material drop in fertility from 22 to 32.

        39. Evan Marc Katz

          As always, you’re both right and neither of you is listening to each other.

        40. KK

          Chance,

          “While I believe that the phenomenon of young men chasing much older women for sex is definitely largely a rejection buffer (with many years of observations to back this up)”

          How many years and how many observations? Did you conduct a study? Just curious as to why your anecdotal experiences trump women’s anecdotal experiences on almost every other topic. But I digress…

          I disagree that this is a rejection buffer or the result of insecurities. Long before MILF was a common term (which I find offensive by the way, but I’ll digress again) the older woman, younger man dynamic was seen as a fantasy by SOME younger men and became a subject in poetry, literature, plays, and movies. In one such movie, a younger man is surrounded by his female peers running around in their bikinis doing shots and beer bongs when he notices a very attractive, much older woman standing on her balcony in a bathing suit with a flowy cover up. He starts to fantasize about her.

          It’s the same dynamic for young women who fantasize about much older men. Maturity is attractive to them. I don’t think it’s common for either sex but it happens often enough that you sometimes see it and hear about it. I just think it’s irresponsible to lump all those younger people together and say they either have daddy issues or insecurities that result in a “rejection buffer”. That’s all.

        41. Emily, the original

          KK,

          Maturity is attractive to them.

          It ain’t maturity, it’s skill. We have SO MANY MORE YEARS of experience.

        42. Chance

          KK, I’ll put it this way: I think almost every guy I’ve known (if not every single one) who had a stated “preference” for cougars developed such a “preference” after experiencing repeated rejection from women his own age, which would be early 20s.  I would say this is about 20 guys.  Of course, they didn’t admit to this rejection buffer.  Instead, necessity became a “preference” because they’d rather avoid further repeated rejection than further develop their approach.

           

          I’ll have to say that women’s response here on this subject is pretty interesting because I always assumed older women had a general understanding of what was going on in these types of situations, but now I’m forced to reconsider.

        43. KK

          “I’ll have to say that women’s response here on this subject is pretty interesting because I always assumed older women had a general understanding of what was going on in these types of situations, but now I’m forced to reconsider”.

          Chance, I think you’re onto something. (Sincerely, with out any sarcasm). That doesn’t mean I agree with your earlier comments, but I do agree with this one. For all our human similarities, men and women experience the world very differently. Maybe instead of “fighting back”, you could reconsider your position by “helping out”. I really believe MOST of the ladies here are very open minded and willing to weigh other’s viewpoints. Whether they ever “concede” isn’t important. JMHO.

        44. H.

          However, I asked her to provide one example of a culture or time where older women (let’s say 40) are/were considered to be more attractive than younger women (let’s say 20).  I haven’t received a response.  If I get one, I will happily reconsider.

           

          Much of France, 20th century (possibly much earlier, probably later too). Daughters being overlooked in favour of their mamans: happens all the time; not unusual enough to be called an exception.

          Source? Observation, rich anecdotal evidence, and personal experience.

          Are you going to reconsider, happily or otherwise? I doubt it. More likely, you’ll just cast a doubt on it or disregard it. But I am not going to be around to debate it.

           

           

        45. Chance

          “Are you going to reconsider, happily or otherwise? I doubt it. More likely, you’ll just cast a doubt on it or disregard it. But I am not going to be around to debate it.”

           

          well, that’s too bad because you’ve piqued my interest

      2. 16.3.2
        Jeremy

        When shopping for a house, some people see imperfections as “character” while others insist on a brand new house.  And though houses with character have fewer buyers, they tend to sell nonetheless.  Frankly, they usually end up costing the buyer significantly less, and the buyer is less critical of them compared to how they feel when their brand new house inevitably shows signs of wear.  Now apply the metaphor.

         

        Regarding the women with the endless lists, let their lists disqualify them in your eyes and NEXT them.  Hopefully some of them will have the insight to hire Evan for a tune-up of their attitudes.  So many of us believe that the secret to finding love is external (the right person), but that is only half of the equation.  The other half is in building the right attitudes in ourselves to foster a relationship.  The women with the lists likely have no lists of their own attitudes that need adjusting.

         

        The person who ego-invests in their own independence has no use for a help-mate.  The person who ego-invests in their intelligence has no use for a mind-mate.  The person whose life is too busy for leisure has no use for a play-mate.  And the person who can’t lift their eyes off the mundane details of life has no use for a soul-mate.  With those things de-valued, all that’s left is a desire for a fuck-buddy.  Which is fine, if that’s all one wants.

      3. 16.3.3
        GoWiththeFlow

        YAM,

        “Here is the problem.  All of the blemishes that you cherish mean squat after one divorces.  They were incurred for someone who is no longer part of the picture.”

        That’s the problem.  Not seeing the life so far lived in a potential partner as their own unique history and just resenting it as something shared with someone else.

      4. 16.3.4
        Buck25

        YAG,

        I couldn’t t agree more. I don’t believe our friend Jeremy gets that, for one simply reason. He’s married ( I just asked him for how long, in another post), so he is not, and has not been (at least not recently, I expect), out there dealing with the dating market (especially online) that you and I, along with every older single man here, has been (or is currently) experiencing. I understand your comments, but somehow, I doubt he’s been subjected to that sort of “inquisition” himself, so of course he doesn’t believe it exists.

        @ Jeremy,

        My friend you are very wise, when it comes to maintaining a marriage or relationship that a man has already established. You seem to me less wise, in understanding the difficulties older men encounter establishing one from scratch, as it were, these days. I do wish you’d acknowledge your lack of experience at that, unless you’ve had some I am unaware of, from your commentaries here.

        1. Emily, the original

          But of the three of you, Jeremy sounds the happiest, so he’s obviously doing something right.

      5. 16.3.5
        Jeremy

        @GWTF, I see where you’re coming from.  Your comments are always thought-provoking 🙂

         

        I think that there is a difference, though, between the type of admiration you describe (which I consider to be respect for a peer rather than admiration for a “hero”) and the type of admiration a young woman feels for an accomplished man.  In nutritional terms, it’s the difference between salad and chocolate.  Salad is more nutritious and is the healthier choice for everyday eating.  But chocolate is delicious and we have evolved to crave the way it makes us feel.  Men would be wise to eat salad regularly and learn to enjoy it.  But once in a while we want some chocolate.  Some men want chocolate all the time, but it will give them diabetes.  The metaphor is apt.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremy

          Some men want chocolate all the time, but it will give them diabetes. 

          Chocolate gets a bad rap.  It is actually is good for diabetes.  Chocolate contains flavonoids.  Flavonoids lower blood glucose and blood pressure.  It is the refined sugar in milk chocolate that is bad for diabetes.  White rice, white flour, white bread, and pasta are all much worse for diabetes than high-percentage dark chocolate.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          I’m pretty sure Jeremy is aware of the difference between dark and milk chocolate. I had no trouble understanding what he was saying. Please don’t be so petty that you run off one of the few valuable male commenters here.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          I was merely pointing out the fact that chocolate gets a bad rap.

          As far as to the value of a commenter, I like Jeremy, but I have to agree with what Buck25 said about women commenters on this blog wanting an echo chamber.   Women come here to be validated when what they really need is a dose of unfiltered reality.  For every Jeremy, there are 10,000 men like me and Buck25.  In fact, the average man is even worse than me or Buck25 because he will not even discuss these topics with you because he has no use for such discussions.  Those are pretty miserable odds for a woman who seeks validation via this blog.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          Why do we care about your opinion at all when you’re not the man that any woman should want to marry? As an example of what to avoid? My readers have more than enough experience with that; they’re looking for evidence that there are empathetic, commitment oriented men out there. And since 50 million American men are married, I have to guess more than a handful of them are like Jeremy and I. Now go find somewhere else to pound your chest. As I’ve done for 10 years, I’ll tell women what men like you think and I’ll tell them when men like me think. Any comment that is toxic doesn’t really serve to add much to our education, any more than “fake news” adds to the discussion of facts on the ground.

        5. Jeremy

          YAG, I don’t get the echo chamber comment. Evan is constantly telling women things they don’t want to hear (but need to hear).  His whole MO is giving women a male perspective which they lacked – this is what his articles and books are about.

          As for me, I’ve told the women (and men) here things that took me several decades to learn, so I’d be shocked if many of them came here already knowing them.  I’ve told them about the dangers of a lack of self-awareness.  I’ve told them of the dangers of priority-changing and losing attraction when changing their calculus of priorities.  I’ve told them of the dichotomy between attraction and respect and of the different ways that men and women perceive respect and admiration.  I’ve told them about comfort and arousal, and how over-estimation of the value of comfort leads to loss of attraction to even the most attentive husband, especially after the birth of children.  I’ve warned them that the heuristics they use to assess the quality of men are prone to systematic bias and can lead them astray in predictable ways, and suggested alternative heuristics.  Do you think these were things most women on this blog came here knowing, wanting to hear echoed back at them?  They wanted to learn how to have good relationships, not to be told they are worthless but for their SMV.

           

          I agree that most men out there are ignorant of these things and lack insight when it comes to relationships….but hell, so was I when I was 30.  A good heart, a willingness to learn, and a desire to please and be pleased – these are good places to start.  Far better than confidence, seizing the lead, and having polished shoes.

           

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Evan

          How many of those 50 million men are happily married?  That is only the statistic that matters. I was one of those married men not long ago.  A marriage like Jeremy shares with his wife is more unicorn-like than most are willing to accept.  It is very, very rare.

          Better yet, how many married women are happily married?   A large proper subset of the female commenters on this site are divorcees, which means that they were married to men who are either divorcees or remarried at this point.  People get divorced for many reasons; however, women outnumber men by a large margin when it comes to filling for divorce, which means that fewer women are happily married than men.

          I understand that you coach women, so that they can find the man that they desire.  I respect you for committing yourself professionally.   It is not an easy job.  However, if you are unwilling to recognize that men like and worse than me vastly outnumber men like Jeremy, then you are doing your clients a disservice. The 50 million statistic is a non-sequitur.  The only stat that counts is the one where both people would remain together if the legal, financial, and child rearing bonds were removed.  Those of us who are divorced know that those three bonds can make a person remain in an unhappy marriage for a long time.  The number of adults in the United States who are single exceed 50% in 2013. The trajectory has been upward since 1970s.  Single women outnumber single men by several percentage points, which means that a percentage of the female population is guaranteed to be left without a dance partner if they desire a heterosexual relationship.

        7. Evan Marc Katz

          Last I read, 1/3 of marriages are happy. The rest should get divorced and find someone more compatible.

        8. Evan Marc Katz

          YAG, I hope now that you’ve got your ya-yas out, you can move along. There are MILLIONS of single women who want to find love and MILLIONS of single men who will provide it for them. If you don’t want to be a part of it, that’s fine, but stop raining on my parade. What single non-commitment-oriented men do with their time – masturbate, fuck strangers, friends with benefits – is of no concern to me or my readers.

        9. Jeremy

          “Last I read, 1/3 of marriages are happy. The rest should get divorced and find someone more compatible.”

           

          Or, sometimes, learn what it would take to make both your partner and yourself happy, rather than believing you already know it, if only your partner would see your correctness….

        10. Stacy2

          YAG:

          Does it really seem to you that women need any help at all to avoid guys like you? Trust it, we’re well aware that most men are douche bags. We are. You can stop “educating” us on your philosophy cause frankly we don’t care, why should we?

        11. Shaukat

          @Evan,

          I don’t agree with the general worldview of the posters who you’ve banned recently, but the one thing I’ve always appreciated and enjoyed about this blog is the vigorous debate that’s been allowed on dating/relationship dynamics and gender issues. There’s a danger that if you continue along these lines, you may end up with group-think.

          That said, I do realize I’m not your core audience, and so if your decision was driven primarily by business considerations, I’d likely have done the same.

        12. Evan Marc Katz

          Thanks, Shaukat. To address what you said:

          a. I hold two roles here: content creator and moderator. I control the subjects I write about and I take responsibility for what I write. I also have always allowed people to weigh in here, specifically about the original post. What you don’t see is what I delete: personal dating questions? In the trash? Personal attacks on me? In the trash. (Most) personal attacks on other readers? In the trash. The comments section has a life of its own, but I try to adhere to a largely laissez faire moderating policy. Which brings us to our central problem:

          b. When you have a laissez faire moderation policy, you pretty much have a vacuum with no regulation (cue angry libertarians!) Sure enough, this space has become akin to politics – with a raging gender war brewing on my website between commenters representing two extremes. Which leaves me in a bit of a tough position. First of all, I don’t have a side. I see the validity of BOTH sides. The men in question – Buck, YAG, Tron – are not “wrong” for how they feel, per se. But they ARE wrong if they are going to destroy the spirit of my website, which is a positive place where women can learn about men and marriage from the perspective of a happily married male dating coach.

          So it’s not that their opinions are invalid, it’s that they’re worthless to my core audience – smart, strong, successful women who want to find lasting love. If you ran a brick and mortar store and there were protestors outside every day, they may be within their legal right to protest, but you, too might find their presence annoying.

          Which is why I will tell any MGTOW reading this right now: GO YOUR OWN WAY. If you think the worst of women, if you just want to have sex without commitment, if you have no intention of ever being a husband, that’s absolutely fine. I could not possibly care less. The problem is that these guys want validation of their worldview – “I’m going my own way, but before I do, I’m going to spend countless hours telling relationship oriented women WHY I’m going my own way, and furthermore, I’m going to attempt to demoralize them by letting them know that there’s MILLIONS of men like me who also dislike women and commitment.”

          Say what you will, but that’s pretty much their message. And it’s tiresome. Just as tiresome as the women who come here to tell me that I’m a misogynist mansplainer, when my entire life is devoted to helping women gain confidence, set healthy boundaries, flirt effectively and choose better long-term prospects. I’m sick of all of ’em. They’re not my clients. They’re just pests, wanting to get their airtime, because this is the Internet and everyone has the right to say what they want. You do. Just not on MY website.

          Just like a brick and mortar establishment, this website is my business. It is not a public square where anything goes. So I’m weighing in heavily for the first time in a long time to stop the madness. I would rather have fewer readers and a positive place for women to ask questions than to continue with this status quo, which resembles a panel on CNN with MGOTWs and far-left Feminists relentlessly going at it.

          If people don’t like the rules of the blog, they can find another blog. Again, I would love to be loved, but I’m not remotely concerned if a bunch of MGTOWs who will never buy Why He Disappeared or join Love U stop commenting on here. If anything, it’ll give me one less thing to worry about, since this is a free service that I offer to the public after all.

          Finally, your concern about “groupthink”…let’s put it this way: as long as this is my blog and I tell women the truth, there is no groupthink. I’m the guy who attempts to represent what smart, successful, ethical men want in a partner, even when it makes me look bad. Do I need 50 embittered middle aged men to weigh in and misrepresent my point of view from their angle? Not really. I can largely fend for myself as long as there’s a handful of reasonable, commitment-oriented men to back me up. In the past, it was Karl R. Today it’s Jeremy. But if a man or a woman reading this has no interest in understanding the opposite sex and having an LTR, really, your presence won’t be missed. My material and my products aren’t for you.

        13. GoWiththeFlow

          Jeremy,

          LOL! And thanks for the compliment.

          There are times in my life when I have really craved a salad.  Usually after a period of overindulging in carbs.  Like the week after Thanksgiving.

          And medically you are correct doc, it’s best to get your flavonoids from beets, dark leafy greens, tomatoes, and the like.  The sugar and calories in chocolate, and the alcohol in red wine can be problematic for some people 😉

        14. Jeremy

          @GWTF, wonderful.  So glad to know that I don’t need to change the metaphor to pie instead of chocolate.  Though I do like pie better…..Glad that most people managed to get the point nonetheless 😉

           

          The focus of this thread has veered from the value of older women to the value of older men, to the biological basis for sexual preference to the psychology of MILF porn.  Fun reading while I drink my coffee.  BTW, I think the OP should talk to this guy and see where he’s at.  He would likely be willing to continue being her SOS regardless of that conversation.  The real question is whether she would still want him to be, or SHOULD still want him to be.  Keeping in mind that if she were to become this guy’s regular GF, the sex would, necessarily, become less exciting as hedonic adaptation sets in.  This is important, because if she dumps this guy and seeks a full-time BF, she may be tempted to judge her new BF sexually against her memories of this guy, and the comparison will not be accurate.

      6. 16.3.6
        Stacy

        @YAG

        Your picker is off. Choose better women period. I know quite a few people who are divorced and not as you’ve described. But I do agree that experience comes with a little bit less naivety. Most younger women that I know that are dating men much older than they are, are doing it mainly for the wrong reasons (went to school with a few) although I know of two seemingly happy marriages where the woman is at least 10 years younger. You can find a woman at any age with issues. I think your expectations are doing the picking for you. It is always quite odd to me to hear others paint people with such a broad brush when there can be so many possible variations. Evan’s wife was divorced by the way (when he met her). There are  so many people in this world. If all those you meet are fitting this one box, then maybe you are the problem.

        But honestly, I think for you (based on the posts I have seen) it’s more about physical attraction (and THAT”S okay) and all these other excuses are a way to try to convince yourself that it’s not primarily about that.  But fyi…most women that are way younger that men desire do NOT find men in that age group attractive period. Just as you talked about the skin of older women being a turn off, it’s the same complaints you hear from younger women about older men. Lord knows I deal with men hitting on me all the time that are older and even when they look good for their ages, they still have an aged and weathered look.

         

    4. 16.4
      Buck25

      Jeremy,

      It is one thing, to watch your long-time partner age. It is quite another to try to have the same feelings with an aging  NEW partner, one with whom you have NOT built any common memories,experiences, trials and triumphs. I hate to put it this way, but it’s like having a well-liked and well-used old car that still runs, and is full of memories you made driving it from when it was new (or almost new) til now. Now suppose you lost that old car (doesn’t matter how), and you had to choose between two different cars, with none of those memories attached. A similar car, in roughly the same shape, but in which you have no such time and memories invested, is probably not something you would want, if you could by chance get a somewhat newer, better performing model to make some new memories with yourself.  That is what a single man (or woman) must choose; an old car, or a new model, both equally unfamiliar. I hope you see the difference, and why that might be a challenge for someone like me

      1. 16.4.1
        Jeremy

        Your metaphor doesn’t hold, Buck, for one simple reason.  In the car metaphor, there is a buyer and a vehicle.  The buyer makes the choice based on the value/utility of the vehicle.  The vehicle need not choose the driver back.  In the example of people, though, you are both the drivers and are both the vehicles.  You choose her and she also chooses you.  She might be the shiny new car to you, but if you are the beat-up old car to her, why should her choice be different than yours?  In a marriage or even a relationship, you choose each other – and the more mutually equitable the choice (either from an equality or complementarity perspective), the better the relationship (in general).   That is why your metaphor does not really apply IMHO.

        1. Buck25

          Jeremy, one question; how long have you been married?

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Jeremy

          Buck25 explained the experience of being an older divorced man so succinctly that I cannot add value to what he said.  A man accepts the scars that childbirth left on the mother of his children because she is the mother of his children.  She gave him something precious.  I do not have the same connection with the divorced women I meet.  The blemishes they have from childbirth are just scars to me.  That is part of what I meant when I wrote:

          Here is the problem.  All of the blemishes that you cherish mean squat after one divorces.  They were incurred for someone who is no longer part of the picture.  We now have to sell our worn selves to another person who does not see our blemishes as memories.  He/she sees them as imperfections.  That is the world in which divorced people live.

          Before you get all high and mighty on me, let’s face the fact that men are highly visual creatures.  Unlike women, all of primal triggers are visual.  There is no getting around that biological fact.  These triggers exist for the survival of the species.  They allow a man to quickly assess a woman’s breeding potential.

          I know that you are married; therefore, you have not had to deal with the indignities that come with online dating, but online dating is stacked in favor of women.  Anyone who doubts that claim only needs to examine the attributes that a member is required to disclose.   Every single female primal trigger is covered in the attributes Match requires its members to disclose.  Not a single male primal trigger is part of that attribute list.  Can you imagine the outrage that women here and on dating sites would express if men could filter on waist-to-hip ratio and cup size?  However, women routinely filter on height, occupation, salary, and educational attainment level.  Every single one of these attributes are female primal triggers.  Height and salary fall into the safety/security bucket whereas occupation and educational attainment level fall into the ranking within a social hierarchy bucket.  Sites like Match enable women to engage in checklist behavior.  In fact, they promote it!

          Now, women will complain that they have to disclose how they are shaped.  However, unlike height, shape can be altered with exercise, diet, and plastic surgery in extreme cases.  The only way that a man is going to get taller is via a dangerous operation that involves breaking bones.  To the best of my knowledge, this surgery is not legal in the United States.

        3. Buck25

          Yes, it does, because you are assuming that the only valid choices are marriage/LTR, or celibacy.  That, I am informed, is the only view a man is allowed to express on this site. However, in the real world (there is one, outside this blog), there are obviously other alternatives, and you, Evan and the women of this site cannot render that reality null, void and non-existent because you wish it were. That is all.

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          You seem to misunderstand the mission here, Buck. I am a coach for women who want to get married. They are my clients. You are not. As such, this isn’t the town square where you can stand on your soapbox and filibuster. This is my house. You are a guest in it. The fact that you represent a faction of men that no one here wants doesn’t render you null and void but it does invalidate your value to my readers. Much like a vegetarian food critic at a steakhouse or a person with a conscience in the White House. If you are not here to support my core audience in their quest for a happy marriage, you only exist to rain on their parade. So why exactly should I continue to have you as my guest? Freedom of speech? Tolerance for all points of view? Sorry, this ain’t that kind of club. I reiterate that you’re bright and eloquent and even valuable at times, but there’s no reason to trash my core readership. If all the angry older men who disdain most women left my comments section, I wouldn’t lose a single dollar and I’d gain a more harmonious and supportive community for women.

      2. 16.4.2
        KK

        “A similar car, in roughly the same shape, but in which you have no such time and memories invested, is probably not something you would want, if you could by chance get a somewhat newer, better performing model to make some new memories with yourself”.

        And yet, some people prefer a classic. Miles = wisdom and experience, adventures of a life well lived and easier to relate to. That solid frame has likely taken some beatings (ie, disappointments and heartbreaks) and stood the test of time.

        New = exciting for a time, but that new car smell fades rather quickly along with the thrill of ownership. That cheap, plastic bumper can’t handle much stress (ie, don’t kiss her behind and you’ll be left in the dust).

        And don’t forget, YOU are the old car too.

         

         

        1. Buck25

          The operative word, KK, was NOT “new” ; it was “newer“. You are twisting my analogy (admittedly not perfect). I’m trying to explain that its easier to overlook flaws in a familiar partner, than to overlook the same flaws in someone completely unfamiliar. In the former case, one does not have to build attraction, then connection, as both are already there (or at least have been, often for a considerable time). In the latter case, one has to start somewhere, and if there’s no attraction, there’s just no place to start from. Do remember two points with regard to that. First, women can, in some cases, develop attraction over time; men rarely if ever  can, at any age; it’s either there, or not.  Second, attraction is not a conscious choice, it just happens, or not. If that were not so, we could all just “decide” to be attracted to whoever was available that fit our other parameters (whatever those are).; but that’s not what happens, is it? We may choose platonic friendships that way, but not romantic relationships

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Buck25

          First, women can, in some cases, develop attraction over time; men rarely if ever  can, at any age; it’s either there, or not.

          This is one area of the male psyche that women refuse to accept.  It is same type of denial that exists when men say that the only women with whom a man can be platonic friends are women who he finds to be sexually undesirable.   All other female “friends” are merely women with whom he has yet to know in a biblical way.  Women would be surprised to discover how many of their male “friends” would jump at the opportunity to strip down to bare flesh if given the opportunity.

           

           

        3. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Women would be surprised to discover how many of their male “friends” would jump at the opportunity to strip down to bare flesh if given the opportunity.

          And would men be surprised to discover how many of their female friends don’t have a sexual interest in them, that the friendship may have developed for her in large part because she didn’t see him as a potential date?

        4. Chance

          Hi Emily,

           

          “And would men be surprised to discover how many of their female friends don’t have a sexual interest in them, that the friendship may have developed for her in large part because she didn’t see him as a potential date?”

           

          I would think that most men know this, which is why a lot of men don’t seek out female friends.  When it happens, it’s usually due to circumstances that brought them together rather than due to the man pursuing the friendship.

        5. Emily, the original

          Hello Mr. Chance,

          I would think that most men know this,

          But that usually doesn’t stop them from making a strange, tentative pass at their female friends and then getting passive-agressively mean when the woman doesn’t respond how they want her to.

      3. 16.4.3
        Stacy

        @Buck25

        You are almost 70. I GUARANTEE that most women in your desired age group would NOT find you attractive (unless you are an anomaly) and probably find you just as repulsive sexually as the 60 year old women you say you find repulsive. I guarantee that there is an ulterior motive for being with you if a woman chooses to be, or, you are probably the 4th choice because she literally can’t do better. That’s just the way it is.  So you keep being ageist. I am sure those women will appreciate it as they spend your money.

        1. H.

          God knows I don’t agree with Buck’s repulsive language (although I can see and understand his hurt – and envy his past love!), but for fairness’ sake I just have to say that, while most may (or may not) find a 70-year-old unattractive, there definitely are some TOP quality women who might. I always preferred (good-looking) men much older than myself, even as a gorgeous twenty-something, and it had nothing to do with any “ulterior” motives. Right now, I am pining over a 69-nine year old whom I find SEXY as hell. I may be the only one who does, but I do. So, there are some women who might find him genuinely attractive – yes, even women much younger than him.
          As for the “breeding potential” as an overwhelming attraction factor that is being discussed with such passion and so in-depth: explain to me (not Stacy, I mean the proponents of this “evolutionary” crap)  the beauty ideals of many an age past that idolized  pale and positively ill-looking women, the very image of Lillith (the anti-reproduction “ideal” if you will). One such example would be the fin-de-siècle Europe; and it wasn’t so just on paper. Many femmes fatales of the era actually looked like that – as does, in this day and age, one of the most “successful” (in terms of male attention) women I know. (I won’t even mention the many cases of women who are known to be infertile, yet have no trouble attracting men, because that could be explained otherwise.)
          My point is: beauty and, most of all, sex appeal most definitely ARE social constructs.

  17. 17
    D_M

    Brethrens,

    Help me to understand the place where some of you’ll are coming from. Some days, I think I get it, then others days I am left confounded. Are you simply a marine buoy of sorts? You know, warning female readers of the various types of male dangers that are present. The duality of some poster’s musings, send countless mix signals. You say that you are not interested in X, but conduct yourselves in a manner that is directly contradictory to achieving X. This would be consistent, but then you rail against female behavior whose primary goal is obtaining X. I can’t see why female behavior that underscores their relationship goals even registers on your radar.

    Some of you guys say that you are not looking for anythging meaningful, but the way in which you go about describing your experiences, says otherwise. I’m sure Evan has figured this out a long time ago, but you are no different than your female counter parts. Some woman, or women were unable to recognize that you were being your best selves, so you retreated inwards. What does all this mean? Not much really. I just wanted to get up on the soap box for a while and let you know that a number of the intuitive readers, recognize it for what it is. Let me briefly touch on the weathering that happens to all of us. You can’t see your sagging posterior or the low hanging stones, but she can. Again, no amout of reps are going to ward off father time. Our knees, elbows, knuckles, and wherever the skin folds shows our age. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. In the dating game, the younger versions of ourselves always wins. There is a reason that we have over and under 40 leagues.

  18. 18
    Marika

    Malika 

    My grandmother was the same. She dedicated her life to family and friends after her husband’s very early death and was as happy as Larry.

    The difference here is, my grandmother and I’m assuming yours, very likely didn’t continue to frequent the equivalent of relationship advice blogs, while simultaneously declaring they weren’t interested in relationships / all men are terrible / all men after a certain age are disgusting & undateable etc.

    I would never in a million years frequent a “how to charm your way into her pants” blog trying to convince everyone how great it is to be in a healthy relationship. It just wouldn’t make sense…

  19. 19
    Marika

    Thanks GWTF

    It wasn’t even really shaming though, more abject disappointment that a man with a wealth of life experience could brag about how he acts like women are only good for one thing.

    I couldn’t help but put myself in the place of a daughter reading comments like that. I honestly don’t get it. Would these men be okay with other men treating their daughters and granddaughters like they have an expiry date?

    1. 19.1
      Buck25

      Excuse me but isn’t that exactly what women say every day about older men?

      1. 19.1.1
        Marika

        Buck,

        Women are not interchangeable. I’ve never said anything nasty about older men (haven’t even seen the post with the nasty viagra comments). I have the utmost respect for my elders (in general), my father, my deceased grandfathers, my friend’s fathers, all wonderful men who I value enormously. It’s your particular views that really disappoint me.

        But at the end of the day, this is Evan’s blog. Evan is:

        – pro-marriage

        -pro-healthy relationships

        -pro giving people of all ages a chance

        -pro looking beyond looks

        -pro love

        -pro putting aside your ego in the search for love

        And his wife is older than him.

        He is a dating coach for strong, successful women.

        You and he have the complete opposite views on women and relationships. You’re not the demographic it’s aimed at. So why continue to frequent this blog?

        If I frequent a blog that adheres to your beliefs and then continually write comments that go against the whole point of the blog and insult the very people it’s written for, feel free to pull me up on it. And I promise to ‘take it like a man’.

        1. Buck25

          Marika,

          Do excuse me for believing that that in debate, there is benefit in observing and debating contrarian points of view, rather than attempting to silence same. It is beginning to seem to me that what  is desired by both the host and the bulk of the female audience here, (most of which, yourself included, is below (often well below), the age of even the youngest women I attempt to date), is not a full and honest debate, but an echo chamber for primarily female values, and those of your particular age group of women at that. Coincidentally, most of the more popular (with the distaff side) male posters are (like our host) married men, and have values leaning more toward those of women rather than those of the more masculine of men (more common among the older part of my generation, than among the younger set of men (30-45) who predominate here. As to insults/incendiary comments, I can only observe that, by far the greater number and more vitriolic have come from the female side, directed at men in my age group in particular, and nothing I have said here, offensive as it is to some, even begins to compare, to an objective observer, with the venom and sheer unadulterated hatred and misandry easily observed not just in a thread or two, but in many threads. “Hate speech” is none too strong a term for the worst of it. Read more than a small sample of some older threads, where the topic of older men comes up, and you can see for yourself; YAM (whoever that is) managed to find the content in question, so it’s definitely out there.

          All I see I’m getting here is the viewpoint of a far younger generation than most of my friends, male or female, much less most of the women I actually date or have dated. I’m beginning to believe we have less and less to say to each other across those generational lines than either much cares to listen to. One last thing, and I promise when I’m done, I’m going to remove myself from this discussion. Right here in this very thread, I’ve seen older women praised and admired for deciding to go it alone ( maybe celibate, maybe not) after being left single. Let a man advocate the same thing on his part and it’s “MGTOW! Ban him! Off with his head! Get the tar and feathers and the hang rope, girls! Sic ’em, Evan, sic ’em!”  You obviously see no inconsistency in that. I do. I’m done with this thread, and maybe with this site, and since I know women just have to have the last word, I’m going to let you have just that, at least for now.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          FWIW, both KK and Stacy2 have been publicly warned about their tone as well, so stop playing victim. I’m about as fair, honest and balanced a moderator as you’ll find on the internet. You only hear from me when someone is demeaning and I have to step in like a teacher on the playground. I’m frankly tired of refereeing so to anyone reading, if you can’t play nice, don’t play at all.

    2. 19.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Marika,

      I’m not sure how integrated of a view men have of women in your country, but here some definitely put daughters and sisters in a completely different category from women they date and marry.  They would be upset if some other man treated their daughter in the same way they treat the women they date.  The same man who will urge his daughter to do well in high school so she can get into an Ivy League college and then a top professional school will say he doesn’t care what his date does for a living, to paraphrase Buck, only what her ass looks like.  And then they’re angry when we react negatively to such mixed messages and double standards.

      An interesting write up of this phenomenon:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/27/the-disturbing-differences-in-what-men-want-in-their-wives-and-their-daughters/?utm_term=.87683336f347

      1. 19.2.1
        Stacy2

        One article I read very eloquently put it as “why men marry Melanias but want their daughters to be Ivankas”. I do think this attitude is on the way out with the generation of Buck25 and Melania’s husband who are about the same age. Jared didn’t marry a Melania. He went for an Ivanka!

        1. Shaukat

          Jared didn’t marry a Melania. He went for an Ivanka!

          Except he wouldn’t have if Ivanka looked like Rosie O’Donell (no offense to her). Educational credentials and career accomplishments are to men what being nice is to women-icing on the cake. Don’t get me wrong, I like intelligent women who can carry a conversation, but the latter doesn’t necessarily correlate with professional achievements.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Stacy2

          Yes!  I have read that piece in the NYT.  It’s excellent.

          I think if there’s one huge guiding concept I have when doing my due diligence on a man is how integrated his view of women is.  Different standards for daughters and dates?  Evidence of a Madonna-whore split?  Hates having women bosses or supervisors at work?

          When I talk to my nieces who are all in their 20s about dating it doesn’t sound like they receive these two different sets of messages from the men in their lives.  Oh I’m sure the men they date are very interested in getting them into bed as quickly as possible, but when they’ve been in medium and longer term relationships, their boyfriends are as supportive of their education, career, and life ambitions and their dad, grandpa, uncles, and cousins are.

        3. Emily, the original

          Stacy2,

          Jared is a stud, he would’ve pulled a gorgeous woman even if he wasn’t rich.

          Do you really think he’s a stud? I guess I never thought of him that way. He looks kind of dorky to me. Ivanka is definitely the more attractive of the two.

      2. 19.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @GWtF

        As a father of two daughters, I believe that I am qualified speak on this subject. A man does not send his daughters to college and graduate school to impress a man.  The reason why a father pushes his daughters to do well is so that they can stand on their own two feet without a man.  He does so because he is a man himself; therefore, he knows how men think.   He also knows that his time on this planet is finite.

         

         

        1. Stacy2

          @Shaukat: 

          Why wouldn’t he? Jared is a stud, he would’ve pulled a gorgeous woman even if he wasn’t rich. There isn’t any mismatch in that relationship. Now, if he himself looked like .. i don’t know use your imagination – and married a gorgeous woman – that would’ve been something to talk about..

          @GWTF

          Different standards for daughters and dates?  Evidence of a Madonna-whore split?  Hates having women bosses or supervisors at work?

          I think it’s very simple actually. It’s simple selfishness. Men want wives they can easily push around, abuse, be a “leader”, be “admired” whatever they call it, they want a relationship where they have an upper hand for themselves. But they do love their daughters and want to spare them such marriage, and since they know what kind of pigs they (and their peers) are, they make sure their girls can stand on their own.

          Like i said, i think this dynamic is on the way out. Younger men (35 and under) don’t think like that.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy2

          Like i said, i think this dynamic is on the way out. Younger men (35 and under) don’t think like that.

          The problem is that I do not consider a large proper subset of the men under 35 to be men.  They are gender confused (e.g., removing all of the hair from their bodies like a woman).  The women from this age cohort who hit on me appear to concur.  I hear the same thing almost every time I ask a millennial or tail-end Gen-Xer why they chase men from the tail-end of the Baby Boom; namely, men from the tail end of the Baby Boom were the last men to be raised to be men.  We did not run to our parents for financial help in our twenties and thirties.  We stood on our own two feet.  We know  how to properly pursue a woman.  We do not “hang out” with a woman.  We court her (believe it or not, millennial and tail-end Gen-X women truly appreciate a man who knows how to properly court a woman because it is such a rare experience).   We do so because we experienced the tail end of traditional gender roles.  If women want to admit it or not, they want those qualities in a man.

        3. KK

          “We do not “hang out” with a woman.  We court her (believe it or not, millennial and tail-end Gen-X women truly appreciate a man who knows how to properly court a woman because it is such a rare experience).   We do so because we experienced the tail end of traditional gender roles.  If women want to admit it or not, they want those qualities in a man”.

          You’re right on this one, YAG. At least for me and the women I know. Here’s the catch. No matter how wonderful you may be at actually pursuing and courting a woman, no woman is going to put up with blatantly sexist attitudes. No woman is going to go back for a second date if they are bombarded with listening to you go on and on about your mesomorph physique and the superior essence of your Sigma phi chai lattè-ness.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          No woman is going to go back for a second date if they are bombarded with listening to you go on and on about your mesomorph physique and the superior essence of your Sigma phi chai lattè-ness.

          I can assure you that I do not discuss these things on a date.  They are merely observations that I have made that made me curious as to why they were so.  I am an INTP; therefore, it is my nature to look for answers. For example, why do so many men face an incredible uphill battle when dating while separated?  Most separated men are lucky to meet a couple of women before their divorce decree is awarded.  I dated well over fifty women during my year of separation (i.e., I was truly separated, as in living in a separate residence).  That one literally had me scratching my head until I started to study social dynamics, which, by the way, is how I discovered this site.

          How does a man who can be quite reserved in public manage to persuade well over fifty women to meet him while he is still technically married?  It comes down to checklists.  Women maintain checklists whereas men, especially divorced men could care less about most attributes other than a woman’s exterior and if she is financially solvent.  For the most part, population demographics determine where a man falls on a woman’s checklist.  Looks are important, but the number one limiting factor a man has on a dating site is his height.  This attribute is followed by his physical size and educational attainment level.  As these attributes are female primal triggers, a taller, larger, and better educated guy can get away with being a borderline douchebag and still get women, especially if he is at least a 7 in the looks department.  Sure, experienced women can override this instinctive behavior, but only to a point.  The Ray Donovan comment that Stacy2 made is a prime example of this dynamic.  Being larger and more masculine externally than men of comparable age conveys privilege.  It is the reason why men 5’11” and taller are more likely to cheat than men of shorter stature.  Men in this height range are more likely cheat because they have more opportunities to cheat.

        5. Stacy2

          YAG:

          i can assure you that no amount of proper courting is going to mask the underlying mysoginism. Even if you don’t discuss it on dates, it shows in some seemingly innocent remarks, in seemingly unrelated conversations, in an occasional slip of the tongue. Its in the words you use, in judemet you profess. Trying to hide mysoginy with courting is like putting perfume on after running a marathon to mask the smell. It’s not gonna fool anyone for long.

    3. 19.3
      Stacy2

      I am not sure, really, that it should be all that surprising that a young assholes grow old to be old assholes? Anyway, arguing with someone my farther’s age about sex and dating REALLY creeps me out, like really does. So i choose to stop responding to Buck25’s posts for the sake of it.

  20. 20
    Mrs Happy

    To return to the original poster’s query:

    Dear Eve,

    you’ve been his sometime companion for 12 years.  Tell him your wants have changed.  Ask him whether he could see the relationship changing.

    Give him time to think about what you have raised, and discuss with you what he wants (e.g. the time between meetings, a month).

    Just talk to him.

  21. 21
    Jeremy

    Buck and YAG, you are correct that I have no experience dating as an older man.  I have not been divorced, and I’ve been married for many years – since I was 30 -though I dated quite a bit before then.  So while I can empathize with your experiences, you are right that I haven’t lived them and don’t directly feel the frustrations that you do.

     

    Having said that, here’s a thought that may or may not be valuable.  I’ve gone through a number of challenges in my life and dealt with those challenges with varying degrees of success.  I have found that, most times, there are 2 mistakes that I’ve commonly made which have led to poor outcomes.  The first mistake is allowing emotions to rule my decisions.  Of course, I always believe I’m being rational at the given time, but if I were to step back and examine what’s going on in my head, there would almost always be an undertone of anger, fear, or the tell-tale itch of dopamine in my brain, leading me to Neanderthal decision-making.

     

    The second mistake is trying to be rational and predicting what I think will make me happy in the future based on my memories of the past and my present desires.  Not taking into account how the future will change and how my own future self will change.  This is insidious and dangerous, and can lead to outcomes just as bad as emotional decisions.

     

    This is all very abstract, and may not speak to you guys.  I’m hoping that you are happy in your lives – if you are, then ignore me completely.  But speaking as a person who was not happy and was generally making decisions that ultimately led to poor outcomes, the thing that helped me most was understanding the pitfalls of “affective forecasting.”  The book “Stumbling on happiness” was especially useful.

  22. 22
    D_M

    Ladies,

    Take a look at YAG’ s 19.2.2 again. It’s about being self sufficient. It has nothing to do with wanting to some how control you. I think it’s a big misconception that some women have. As you all know, education gives you the ability to make more informed choices. Most of us want our daughters, sisters, mothers, and whatever other female variant to be financially independent. We are not afraid of your accomplishments, we applaud them. The problem arises when you put the career accolades ahead of the family unit. That’s part of what I got from Eve’s letter to Evan. She wasn’t willing to give up any of her career goals at the time to pursue a LTR with mister “do it right”. Now that the career is over, she is available. Male or female, nobody likes to knowingly play second fiddle.

    1. 22.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      D_M,

      YAG totally missed my point, and also doesn’t seem to have glanced at the study.  Since Stacy2 mentioned the NYT’s piece, and because the author cites the same study linked above, here is a paragraph from it and the link:

      “And like Mr. Trump praising his daughter’s business acumen, men want different things in their wives than in their daughters. Changing gender roles look less threatening when it’s their children who benefit. According to a survey published by Maria Shriver’s Shriver Report, American men listed “intelligence” as the top quality they valued in both a wife and a daughter, but then the responses split: More men said they wanted their wives to be attractive and sweet than said the same about their female children. For daughters, men ranked being independent, strong and principled as more important qualities than those same characteristics in wives. Two-thirds of men want an independent daughter, but only one in three wants an independent wife. Fourteen percent of men said they wanted a wife who was a homemaker; just 5 percent said the same about their daughters.”

      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/opinion/campaign-stops/why-men-want-to-marry-melanias-and-raise-ivankas.html?_r=0

      The gist of it is women get different messages on what is important or what being a “good” woman is from the men in their life.  So when the primary male influence in our childhood and young adult years, our fathers and grandfathers, praise our intelligence, encourage us to develop talents, and reward us when we achieve results, do you see where it’s understandable that a few hackles might be raised when we’re subsequently told that “Men don’t care about your education, achievements, or career”?  Just a few steps more and we’re at “Men don’t like/are uncomfortable with/resent your education, achievements, or career”

      Sometimes it seems that men view daughters/sisters and dates/wives as two unrelated species.  When I talk about having an integrated view of the opposite sex, what I mean is that I would treat a boyfriend/husband the same way I would want a woman to treat my son.  I would not want either of my sons to be treated as nothing more than a wallet by a woman.  At the same time, I don’t see the men I date as ATM machines, and I’m not searching for a husband to financially support me.  If one of my boys told me that a woman said she couldn’t be in a relationship with him because he didn’t make enough money, I would tell him she is the one with the problem, her priorities are messed up.

      Both YAG and Buck made blanket statements that women their age are physically repulsive.  When their respective daughters hit this this “ugly age” are they going to inform them that no man will ever want to be with them because they don’t want to wake up in the morning next to a woman who is repulsive because lack of estrogen has made her skin hideous?  How would they react if one of their daughters was upset because a man who was her age (or heck, 5 years older than her) told her she was “too old” for him, but hey, “biology”?

      1. 22.1.1
        Kenley

        I think you are making a really, really good point — one that I don’t think has been discussed before — that is it men who are giving women a mixed message concerning what they value in a woman.  Before, this article,  the suggestion seemed to be that  women told other women that men praised intellengence and independence, etc.    If fathers are indeed valuing achievement and indedpence that in their daughters, no wonder women are confused!

         

      2. 22.1.2
        KK

        “Sometimes it seems that men view daughters/sisters and dates/wives as two unrelated species.  When I talk about having an integrated view of the opposite sex, what I mean is that I would treat a boyfriend/husband the same way I would want a woman to treat my son”.

        GWTF, I agree. This is one area in particular where many men are highly hypocritical and most women are much more reasonable and fair minded. This double standard is so prevalent, it’s often the source of comedies and romantic comedies alike.

        Have you seen “What Women Want” with Mel Gibson and Helen Hunt? (It’s an older movie… 2000, maybe). Gibson’s character is a womanizing, egotistical ad exec that has an accident which allows him to actually hear women’s thoughts. It’s pretty funny. In one scene, he tells a colleague, “Guess what? Women don’t have penis envy! That’s a complete lie! Men do! WE have penis envy!” Lol. In another scene, he is completely distraught that his 15 year old daughter was invited to the prom by an 18 year old. When he tries to explain to his teenage daughter that boys only want one thing, he’s able to hear his daughter’s thoughts which are pretty unflattering about his womanizing ways. Anyway, if you haven’t seen it, watch it when you can. Funny stuff! 😉

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          KK,

          I have seen it!  Maybe I’ll check and see if it’s on Netflix.  I need something to laugh at while I sort and fold about 10 loads of laundry 😉

      3. 22.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @GWtF

        Both YAG and Buck made blanket statements that women their age are physically repulsive. 

        Physically repulsive is a bit strong.  Are women who have gone through menopause less attractive on average than women who have not, absolutely, and so are men who have traversed age fifty.  However, a man who looks good for his age should not have to settle for a woman his age just because she feels that she is entitled to a man from her peer age group.  That is pure nonsense.  No one is entitled to anything in this world.  From what I have seen, women my age who still look good for their age do not have a problem getting dates with men of all ages.   If a woman is not attracting men her age, she needs to work on her figure, hair, nails, makeup, and/or wardrobe (just as a man has to get fit and work on his grooming and wardrobe if he wants to attract members of the opposite sex).  If all of those feminine attributes are right, a woman will have no problem attracting a man.  When applied correctly, makeup can work wonders for a woman.  A large percentage of the fiftysomething women I meet have given up trying to make themselves attractive to the other sex.  They sport short gray hair styles, rarely wear makeup, have not had a professional manicure in years, and their wardrobe is what could best be described as “momware.”  Do you know what I do when I want to see that not all fiftysomething have given up?  I take my daughters to Sephora. 🙂

      4. 22.1.4
        D_M

        GoWiththeFlow,

        I can see where some of the disconnect comes from. I believe it stems from a particularly uncomfortable subject for some men to discuss with the women in their lives. As I write this, I’m even trying to tread carefully in order to avoid the reflexive, “typical male patriarchal bullshit” sentiment. LTRs and Marriages require some form of acquiescence on the part of both genders, but someone must lead. You must find someone that you are willing to let lead you or that you are willing to lead without resentment. The discussion about leading conjures up feelings of historical oppression among some women, so the subject can be rather touchy. Obviously, the leadership issue only matters if you are at the stage in life where combining lives are important to you.

        It’s safe to assume that we all are striving for harmony with the the least amount of friction while combining lives. I tried to find the referenced report, but I’m only finding commentary about the report, not the original report. I’ll try to address the independence, strong, and principled issue from my perspective. I see those three traits as fundamental tenets that are needed to navigate life in order to make informed decisions. The wife question was probably answered from the societal conditioned “head of household” perspective. Independence, strong, and principled can be easily extrapolated to mean confrontational when wife is viewed insularly from her interactions with the outside world. Rephrasing the question to focus on how the wife deals with the world outside the home, would probably yield the same daughter/mother/sister results.

        That is the exact double standard that you are referring to. Our cultural interactions are still heavily premised on men taking the lead. Until both genders are comfortable with the role reversal, we’ll be faced with the conundrum. Sweet and attractive are probably being viewed as being more amenable to the husband leading. I believe that’s the perspective from which “Men don’t care about your education, achievements, or career” are made from. Having to continually wrestle for control of the family direction with your significant other gets tiring. This dovetails back to independence, strong, and principled. Armed with those traits, young padawans should be able to select the right husband with the disposition she requires.

  23. 23
    Marika

    Evan 

    It’s such a shame you’ve had to make the exact same point here 5 times (and countless other times elsewhere). How is it not crystal clear that if you agree with nothing this blog and your work stands for, it’s best to move along rather than relentlessly press your point and create negativity.

    Appreciate your patience. Know that your advice and mindset are greatly valued by the majority of us.

    1. 23.1
      Just Saying

      Marika, that these people persist here with their negativity suggest a very very deep seated unhappiness and it is their subconscious way of imploring members of the oppposite sex not to inflict the kind of emotional and psychological damage on their romanitc partners that they themselves have endured. Evan’s clients who are strong and successful tend to just focus on their needs rather than that of their prospective partners. Most strong and successful people – men AND women. Were Buck, Stacy2, YAG et al always like this ? I don’t know but they sure didn’t wake up on morning and decided Hey, I think I will just hop onto a romantic advice blog and spew inventice against members of the opposte sex and keep re-iterating how much contempt and disgust I feel for them and for romantic relationships in general.

      I wish and hope these people will find some semblance of peace and happiness. I know many older men who like dating younger women (my dad was one of them) and women who dislike men and have no interest in them whatsoever (my sister due to my father’s behaviour). They are happily going about their lives. My father kept dating younger women without feeling the need to vent about older women since he was too happy and busy doing what he was doing. My sister went on to career success and if she was felt old, lonely and unhappy, you would never know about it. She is too busy travelling theh world to  infect others with her venom, if she had any. Peace to all.

      1. 23.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Just Saying

        To be completely honest, I was merely looking for answers to problems relating to social dynamics when I encountered Evan’s site.  I did not realize that things were worse than I ever imagined until I participated in few discussions.  There is common thread that fifty years of women’s liberation should be able to undo millions of years of evolution. The message is “men need to get with the program.”

  24. 24
    Selena

    I am genuinely puzzled by the part where Eve says over the years they have become “sort of friends”. How can you see someone every month for 12 years and feel vague about whether you are actually friends? And why would you want more from that “sort of” friend after all these years? Even if he were willing to give it, which seems less likely, you just don’t sound all that close.

    And then there is this: “I had an exceptional career with a lot of pressure that took up a lot of my time. Still during that period I wanted sex, what I didn’t want was all the work and time a relationship consumes.”

    How do you envision having a fulltime partner now that you are retired? Do you see the two of you being together all the time? A lot of the time, but with time off to do your pursue your own interests and have ‘alone time’ when you need it? What happens if your partner wants more of your time and attention than you are comfortable giving? Would it ever be the other way round, you want a partner to keep you occupied now that you don’t have work for that, and the guy doesn’t want that much togetherness?

    You managed to reach age 60 without desiring a committed partnership, in fact using work to avoid one.  EMK suggested you are lonely. I wonder if you have too much time on your hands and are looking for a person to fill it up for you when perhaps you should be looking for a new purpose.  Be open to finding someone you would like to see more than once a month, but I think you would be wise to truly consider what having an every day partner would really be like for you.  Even retired you could resent all the work and time a relationship consumes. Maybe even more so than when you had a job to focus on.

  25. 25
    Selena

    Since this blog is primarily geared toward marriage-minded women, why do you fellows who DON’T WANT marriage- minded women spend sooo much time writing here? This is not your target audience. What’s the point? What do you get out of writing the same things over and over and over and over, co-opting threads that barely relate to the things you want?

    I find having to skim/scroll through so many posts justifying why you want to screw young, fertile women tedious. If you can actually get significantly younger women for casual situations, why aren’t you out doing it instead of writing about it to women who aren’t interested? You are not “educating” us; we’ve run into your kind every decade since we were in our teens.

    Go away. Find a forum where younger women are seeking out older men for casual sex. Blather away there.

     

  26. 26
    Emily, the original

    Selena,

    I find having to skim/scroll through so many posts justifying why you want to screw young, fertile women tedious. If you can actually get significantly younger women for casual situations, why aren’t you out doing it instead of writing about it to women who aren’t interested?

    Bingo.

    Say it loud: We’re old and we’re proud!

  27. 27
    Shaukat

    Emily, no one is attacking older women, at least I’m not and Chance wasn’t either. This side debate emerged in response to Stacy2’s comment that men seek younger women because they’re easier to manipulate. Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women, but that men override such instincts when seeking an LTE (and yes, it’s also true that most women in their 20s don’t want 40 year old men). MEL even agreed with that statement if I recall.

    So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted.

    1. 27.1
      KK

      Shaukat,

      No argument from me that a lot of men are attracted to younger women. Like GWTF, I don’t believe it’s solely biological.

      “…,but that men override such instincts when seeking an LTE…”

      Not all men. There are men who do seek out much younger women for LTR’s. Not to mention the fact that men also pursue women the same age for ONS and FWB’s.

       

    2. 27.2
      Emily, the original

      Shaukat,

      Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women,

      Ok, and women, for biological reasons, are attracted to men who can provide for her offspring. That’s also a fact, but heaven help if we female posters write about that. Then we are gold diggers.

      NEXT topic. I agree with Selena. None of this has much of anything to do with marriage- or commitment-minded men and women, the focus of this site. It’s just stuff posted to intentionally goad women and get them riled up.

    3. 27.3
      KK

      “So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted”.

      Ugh… Why is it necessary to say someone is insecure and defensive for pointing out the obvious. It just isn’t accurate. EMK pointed out the exact same thing to Buck, YAG, and Tron. Selena directed her comment toward the men who were claiming that older women (even if they’re younger than them…LOL) are unattractive.

    4. 27.4
      Stacy2

      Chance simply stated that there are biological reasons why men are primarily sexually attracted to younger women

      This is getting tiresome but i’d like to drive the point home. Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility (and being under 25 isn’t one fellas, stop the bullshit. to illustrate: nobody is going after an obese 18 year old). Similarly, women are biologically attracted to tall and strong men with a lot of resources. However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate. This biological shit has long been buried under societal constructs and pressures. Factors such as physical attractiveness (regardless of age), values, religion, core beliefs, status, attainability, etc. play by far larger role in the whole formula of attraction than a “drive to procreate” or a “drive to find a protector”. Come. on. now. Nobody wants to procreate. Everybody wants to fuck (as has been explained on this site, when men have sex with you they do not want to be fathers… ). So, when this biological urge is so reduced and suppressed, other factors are what really determines the attraction. And the perceived “easy prey” that a younger woman could be is one of them. Yes, a 23 yo who has just arrived to NYC from Nebraska is an easy prey for about a year or two because she can’t tell a 40-yo loser from a successful professional or a broke party promoter from a club owner. And THAT is the primary attraction, not the fact that she looks much more “fertile” compared to her 27 yo counterpart. She doesn’t, most men wouldn’t be able to tell their age anyway, and this is fully societal issue so please stop trying to blame your biological  urges for your pigginess. The only women you’d be fooling are those 23 year olds, and they’re not here on this forum anyway.

       

      1. 27.4.1
        Chance

        Stacy2

         

        “This is getting tiresome but i’d like to drive the point home. Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility (and being under 25 isn’t one fellas, stop the bullshit. to illustrate: nobody is going after an obese 18 year old)”

         

        I’ll be honest with you… even the fat 18 y/o’s look better than the average 35 y/o’s to me (on average).

         

        “However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.”

         

        This is pretty much exactly what I said in my initial response to you.

        1. Stacy2

          So, Chance, who would you rather fuck: a 46 yo Jennifer Aniston or an 18 yo Rosie O’Donnel?

        2. Chance

          You do understand what “on average” means, no?

        3. Stacy2

          Yes and I consider Aniston pretty average, “girl next door” type.

        4. Chance

          Stacy2, Jennifer Aniston looks about as good as a 48 y/o woman can possibly look.  Were you being serious with that response?

      2. 27.4.2
        Shaukat

        Nobody is denying that men are biologically attracted to women who have visible markers of fertility

        Actually Stacy, you did seem to deny this in your original post to Chance. You stated that the notion that men are attracted to younger women for biological reasons linked to fertility was “utter bullshit.” At the time, you did not qualify this statement by claiming that social factors also play a role in subsuming biological urges.

        However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.

        Exactly. You realize that with this statement you’re now aligning your position with the exact same point that Chance was initially making? He stated that men override their biological urges because they choose partners based on other criteria than pure sexual desire (of course, there’s more to it than just that, because many older men, 36+, couldn’t land a 25 year old anyways).

        Yes, a 23 yo who has just arrived to NYC from Nebraska is an easy prey for about a year or two because she can’t tell a 40-yo loser from a successful professional or a broke party promoter from a club owner. And THAT is the primary attraction.

        I’m sorry, but this statement is unbelievable and ludicrous on many levels. First, this hypothetical transplant to NYC would be targeted because she’s naïve, alone, and perhaps vulnerable, not due to her age. A 35 year old naïve, socially clueless, isolated woman arriving for the first time from Nebraska to NY would be just as easy prey. It’s interesting that initially you claimed that age made it easy for men to manipulate certain women, but now, perhaps realizing that position is untenable, you throw in all these other variables, such as a young woman, who spent all her life in Nebraska, and had never visited the big city before (moreover, in this digital and media saturated age your scenario is rather unlikely; most young women would have a good idea of city dynamics, regardless of where in the US they grew up).

        Finally, let me just say that the nit picking over fertility statistics is not that relevant, because as GWTF herself mentioned, fertility studies do not replicate the conditions under which early hominids and homo sapiens evolved. Life expectancy throughout the hunter gatherer period was maybe 22 years or so (it was 29 during antiquity), and sexual reproduction would have been regulated by tribe or would have taken place through nomadic interaction. Evolution works by incentivizing certain reproductive strategies. Why does sex feel so good? Why did women evolve to have multiple orgasms? It’s instinctual and primal, clearly no man was sitting back  then and wondering how steep the decline in a woman’s fertility would be in five years time.

        1. Stacy2

          These are not unrelated things. A young age equals inexperience. Men are attracted to inexperience because it gives them the upper hand and control, and that’s what they want. A 35 yo woman knows their tricks, a 22 yo does not. This is what men want. This is what men on this blog said they want, many times. Why don’t you go enlighten them instead?

          Humans have not been mating based on biological attraction since the days of living in caves. For the most of human history marriages have been arranged. It is time you drop that excuse.

      3. 27.4.3
        Yet Another Guy

        @Stacy2

        Similarly, women are biologically attracted to tall and strong men with a lot of resources. However, we’re far too evolved at this point and both genders successfully override their purely biological urges when seeking a mate.

        Have you bothered to read any female profiles on Match?  I can assure you that at least 80% of the profiles fall into this category.  I am a fraction of an inch shorter than 6′, and I was starting to feel like a short man because so many women have my height or 6’0″ set as the base height for a man.  That is an insane disconnect from male demographics.  Three quarters of the male population is shorter than 5’11”, which pretty much guarantees that there are at least two women who desire a man who is at least 5’11” for every man who meets this threshold.  Please do not start me on the disconnect when it comes to educational attainment combined with height.  The gender that is guilty of checklist mentality is women (by the way, every major female primal trigger is covered in Match’s attribute list).  The constraints that men place on women are minuscule compared to the constraints women place on men.   Men have one major constraint; namely, does she invoke the primal urge to pursue her as a lover.   When it comes to age discrimination, forty and fiftysomething women are as guilty as forty and fiftysomething men.  Show me a forty or fiftysomething women who looks good for her age, and I will show you a women whose upper age bound is her age (or younger) and  lower age bound is twenty years her junior.  No one is taking these women to task.  No, they are saying, “You go, girl!”

        1. KK

          YAG,

          “The constraints that men place on women are minuscule compared to the constraints women place on men”.

          That’s right!

          “I was starting to feel like a short man because so many women have my height or 6’0″ set as the base height for a man.  That is an insane disconnect from male demographics”.

          Most of what women want would qualify as an insane disconnect from male demographics.

          Let’s see:  attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          What percentage of men do you think possess those qualities, YAG?

        2. KK

          Should have said percentage of SINGLE men in any given age bracket

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Let’s see:  attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?  We already know that most men are emotionally unavailable from the commenters on this site.

        4. KK

          “The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?”

          Something that you don’t want. A mutually satisfying committed relationship.

          “We already know that most men are emotionally unavailable from the commenters on this site”.

          Thanks for answering my question.

           

        5. Stacy

          @YAG

          Puh lease. Women give men chances for their feelings to grow all.the.time. Any half decent looking and decently successful man with any kind of options has VERY high standards for physical looks. So the major constraint (does she invoke the primal urge to pursue her as a lover) that you say men have involves MANY, many things for men. That requirement list for women usually include young, thin enough, shapely enough, fashionable enough, etc. Women in general would give a man a chance for a variety of reasons (especially if he has a sense of humor). Men do not bend on physical attraction. Of course, they don’t care if they are taking you as a lover (in fact, it’s easy to be a man’s lover and that means absolutely nothing) but they’re not gonna ‘bring you home’ if you don’t fit the standard (unless they can absolutely not get anything else). Even successful women who don’t need a man’s money will pair up with an average or below average looking man for other reasons (Heidi Klum and Seal, Jennifer Lopez and Michael Anthony, Beyonce and Jay-Z etc.)

        6. Shaukat

          Stacy, with all due respect, you might be watching too many ROM-COMS. It’s true that men have standards for physical looks, but so do many women, and often the standards are just as high if not higher. It’s not uncommon for an attractive woman to next a guy after one or two dates MAX if she isn’t feeling an 8.5/10 in chemistry. That’s ok; that’s their prerogative, and I believe that men who want to play in that league have to work on themselves to up their SMV instead of complaining, but let’s not pretend that a guy who is a 6 is going to be able to score an 8 with ease just because he has a sense of humour (I know, there are exceptions). In fact, if what you were saying was true then EMK wouldn’t have had to create an entire business pitching a central message to women that they should look for a 7 in chemistry and a 10 in compatibility.

        7. Selena

          YAG: ““The better question is what does a man get in return for being all of the above the way that a woman interprets these attributes?”
          KK: Something that you don’t want. A mutually satisfying committed relationship.”

          Since you only want casual situations with women under 45 YAG, shouldn’t your better question be how to accomplish that?
          What keeps you coming back to this blog? What are you getting out of it really?

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Let’s see:  attractive, age appropriate, character and integrity, emotionally available, emotionally intelligent, and financially secure.

          Okay, let’s see.  I have no problem whatsoever attracting women.  I may not be a 9 or 10, but I am definitely attractive.  I met over 50 women on the online dating sites as a separated man.  Almost all of these women had completed at least a 4-year program, more than 50% were graduate school graduates.  Most separated men give up out on the dating sites out of frustration.   The women I date are age appropriate to me.  Apparently, I am age appropriate to them as well because they date me.  Let’s not get started on “character and integrity.”  I am certain that I possess both of these attributes.   I spent five years on active duty in uniform.  When you have made that level of sacrifice, we can discuss character, integrity, and an attribute that you missed; namely, honor.  Emotional availability is currently a big “no go.”  I have made that one fairly clear.  As I have mentioned many times, the ride is not worth the price of admission.   As man who has already been married and has children, I currently do not see a purpose in being tied to a women who is not the mother of my children.   I am not saying that I may not change my mind on this subject; however, at this point, I do not see an upside.  Emotional intelligence is context sensitive; therefore, that one does not factor into the equation.  A man and a woman will never have comparable EQs when it comes to relationships.  Guys are not wired that way.   I am financially secure, and I plan to keep it that way.

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Selena

          I am in my mid-50s.  My target age range is 40 to 50.  I have no problem meeting women in that age range.   As I originally mentioned, I discovered this site while researching topics in social dynamics.   It was not until I started to participate in discussions that I began to question my reasons for wanting a relationship.   It became painfully apparent that divorced women want the same level of commitment that they received from the fathers of their children without their associated flaws.  The woman to whom I made that level of commitment gave me my children.  No woman I meet at this age will be able to come remotely close to that gift.  Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?   I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex.  All I see from commenters is what they want from a man,  not what they have to offer a man.

        10. KK

          YAG,

          I think you misunderstood me. When you complained that women have outrageous qualifiers compared to men, I agreed with you and listed some of the most common (or most important) ones. I wasn’t asking which ones applied to you.

        11. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?   I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex.

          And no woman on this site will give you an answer. As has been stated repeatedly, this is a site for woman who want long-term relationships and marriage. You don’t.

        12. Kenley

          @YAG — prove why I should give up my freedom….

          My friend had a saying about religion — for those who believe no proof is necessary; for those who don’t, no proof is enough.

          You don’t believe that any woman is worth giving up your freedom so no matter what anyone says, you aren’t going to agree with them.

          The cool thing about the times we live in is that we all have so many relationshiop options.  If you want to get married, that’s fine.   If you want to live with someone, that’s fine.  If you want a LTR, but maintain separate homes, that’s fine.  If you want a FWB, that’s fine.  If you want want a fuck buddy, that’s fine.  If you want a series of one night stands, that’s fine too!  All these different types of relationships are totally acceptable today.   No one gets voted of that island for any of those relationships.  So, why do you want people to give you proof for something that you don’t want to do, and more importantly something you don’t have to do to get what you need from women?  Again, I am scratching my head.

        13. KK

          YAG,

          “It became painfully apparent that divorced women want the same level of commitment that they received from the fathers of their children without their associated flaws”.

          Right again!

          “The woman to whom I made that level of commitment gave me my children.  No woman I meet at this age will be able to come remotely close to that gift”.

          I’m not going to try to sell you on the benefits of a second marriage. That’s either appealing to you or it isn’t. For me, it’s appealing IF (and it’s a BIG IF) I find someone who is right for me. I understand where you’re coming from. I do. I’ve had friends who have come to me when contemplating divorce, and (when there wasn’t infidelity or abuse) I’ve strongly recommended doing whatever it takes to save their marriage. You get ONE SHOT at an in tact family. ONE. Your new spouse will never love your kids as much as their own parent. I have no interest in a blended family while my kids are still at home with me.

          All that being said, the reality is that I’m a divorced mom with kids that are almost grown and I don’t think my life should be over just because I married the wrong person the first time around. A different man isn’t going to give me children. I have the only children I want. But he can give me the love I never experienced the first time around. A love that is real and lasting. For me, it’s worth a shot. For you, it sounds like it isn’t and that’s okay too. But pay attention to what you’re saying. Your ex wife had your children but if you divorced her, there was something pretty big missing. What if someone else can give you that.

          “Please tell me what a woman has to offer that makes it worth giving up my freedom?   I am serious about finding an answer to this question because no woman on this site has been able to elaborate as to what a woman has to offer a man that he cannot get from his male friends after he has children and does not need sex”.

          I answered that question. A mutually satisfying committed relationship. I can’t elaborate because I don’t know what’s important to you. In addition to having someone who loves you unconditionally and is willing to devote herself completely to you, what do you want? If you want someone to cook for you, find someone that loves to cook. If you want someone who will go hiking with you or watch movies with you, find someone who likes those things. There’s no blueprint. And if nothing I said sounds appealing, keep doing whatever it is your doing. No one is going to condemn you for remaining alone the rest of your life. Not to be ugly, but no one really cares.

           

           

        14. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          And no woman on this site will give you an answer. As has been stated repeatedly, this is a site for woman who want long-term relationships and marriage. You don’t.

          I understand that this site is for women who want long-term relationships or marriage; however, what I have failed to see is at least one female commenter describe what she has to offer a man that is enough for him to commit to being only with her.   The women on this site routinely discuss what they want and how they want men to be more like women.  Jeremy gets praised, but he comes off as the kind of guy with whom a woman settles down because she knows that he will provide resources and split changing diapers with her while she secretly lusts after a more masculine man.   There is more than a grain of truth to the alpha fux-beta bux mindset.

        15. Evan Marc Katz

          I’d respond as a happily married guy who has never been mistaken for beta. But it’s not my job to convince you of the worthiness of an entire gender if you haven’t arrived at it yourself. Now go your own way and leave us to the business of helping women find men who want to get married – no arm twisting necessary.

        16. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Jeremy gets praised, but he comes off as the kind of guy with whom a woman settles down because she knows that he will provide resources and split changing diapers with her while she secretly lusts after a more masculine man.

          That was nasty, and totally uncalled for.

          Jeremy gets praised because he is highly emotionally intelligent, he LIKES WOMEN and he is a HAPPY PERSON.

        17. Jeremy

          YAG, I’m not offended by your comment but I can see that there might be something important you are missing.  There are women in this world who would consider being with me as “settling,” and there are women in this world who would consider being with me as the best thing that ever happened to them.  And many in between.  The secret to happiness in relationships is NOT being more alpha so that the hottest women will lust after you.  It is finding a woman who considers being with you – the real you – as the best thing that ever happened to her.  And feeling the same way about her.

           

          And when I say that a person should feel that their partner is the best thing that happened to them, I am not referring just to how hot they are or how good of a lay they are.  Those things are only a part of the equation.  Martin Seligman writes about the “PERMA” principle of what makes people happy in the long-term – positive affect, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement.  You asked the question “what can a woman provide if I don’t want kids and have a declining sex drive.”  The answer, according to happiness psychology, is long-term happiness due to having a good relationship, more opportunity for positive affect, and if you look at it the right way, an opportunity to develop meaning in one’s life.  All of this is contingent, however, on approaching with the right attitude.

        18. Janice

          @YAG – “Show me a forty or fiftysomething women who looks good for her age, and I will show you a women whose upper age bound is her age (or younger) and  lower age bound is twenty years her junior. ”

          Not true.  Most?  Maybe, but I don’t stalk female profiles.  What I can tell you is this is probably close to 95% true for men’s profile settings that I’ve seen online (3 sites for 3 years now).  Heck, you already admitted that your target upper range is about 5 years younger, how about that lower age?  I see many 60+ year old men whose range on the lower end is ~35.

          I’m upper 50’s, and my lower range is usually at my age or 1-2 years younger, with the upper age up to 10 years.  I don’t really want to go that high as I’ve been there and trust me, it was fine for the first few years, but when I was 50 and he was 68, the differences really start to show up…but I’m still open to it.

          I list no height ‘requirement’, no income requirement, etc.  Surely I can’t be the only one?

        19. Yet Another Guy

          @Janice

          Heck, you already admitted that your target upper range is about 5 years younger, how about that lower age? 

          My target age range is 5 to 10 years my junior; however, my stated range is 45 to 60.  I am not one of those guys who married and divorced a peer to marry a younger woman.  I married a woman seven years my junior when I was in my mid-thirties.  I start to get out of sync family-wise when women are in their late 40s.   A large proper subset of women in their late forties are empty nesters.   Many are already grandparents.  By age 55, a large percentage of women are already grandmothers with several grandchildren.   My twins are in high school.

        20. KK

          “I start to get out of sync family-wise when women are in their late 40s”.

          Lol! Sorry YAG, but why on earth does it matter if a woman is a young grandmother or an older parent if you’re not even wanting a relationship? Seriously, why would that matter? Makes ZERO sense.

        21. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          I have learned to never say “never.”  While I am not looking for a relationship, I would not completely rule one out if I met a woman who gave me reason to pay the price of admission.   I am still searching for a reason to commit myself to one women.   I was researching why people re-marry after they have raised their families when I found this site.  Marrying the first time is about having a family.   Marrying the second time is not so clear cut.   It is clearly not about having someone who will have your back as you age, at least not for a man.   Far many too many women have made the “nurse with a purse” comment for me to feel remotely confident that I would not be dumped in a nursing home if I were become frail before my mate.

      4. 27.4.4
        Shaukat

        No way is Jennifer Aniston in anyway the “average” for a 46 year old woman. And that’s not a knock against women in their late 40s-most of them lack the time, resources, and motivation to look like that. Do you think “The Rock” is the average for a 45 year old man by any chance?

        1. Stacy2

          @Shaukat & Chance:

          I don’t think The Rock is average for any age. However Jen Aniston IS average, her entire career and image is predicated on the “girl next door” looks. And I think her husband (who is .. gasp.. a few years younger than her) is also average. I think Justin Theroux is an average looking man. I think they’re both attractive, but i think they’re average. In cities like NYC or LA if they weren’t famous they’d be your everyday average 40-something people. I see professional women in their 40-ies looking like that all the time, and I do consider it average. Look up on google some women who’ve been in the news lately: Marissa Meyers (41), Lynn Jurich (38), Jennifer Blumin (40), this IS what a normal average woman should look like. Some example of above-average include Sofia Vergara and Heidi Klum.

        2. Chance

          Sorry Stacy2, but female attractiveness is determined by men.  Not by women.  Jennifer Aniston may be just nice looking now (since she is in her late 40s), but she is a 10 for her age.  You would be very lucky to look as good as her when you are her age.

        3. Stacy2

          Well, Chance, in that case by your definition my office, building and gym is packed with “10s”. I should consider myself lucky, i guess. LOL

  28. 28
    Shaukat

    Sorry, I meant LTR and “EMK even agreed.” Auto-correct.

  29. 29
    Selena

    @ Shaukat # 27

    “So Selena’s defensiveness and insecurity are unwarranted.”

    Why did you not address Selena directly?

    Selena has had a co-habitating partnership with someone 15 years her senior. She loved him. The age difference didn’t matter to her.

    Selena has also had 2 casual situations with men similarly aged- her choice at the time.

    None of the above would have happened without Selena feeling a personality connection on her part.

    I’m not defensive or insecure. I’m bored with men writing comments, especially essay long comments, about how they want women younger than themselves for casual sex on a blog geared toward women who are not interested. What the fuck is the point in doing that?

    Seriously, what is the point?

    Those who can, do fellows.

    1. 29.1
      Emily, the original

      Selena,

      But please understand, Selena, that unless you are 25, your long-term partner and the men you had 2 casual situations with were not “primarily” attracted to you. (Sarcasm intended.)

      1. 29.1.1
        KK

        Emily,

        It’s obvious your female logic and female emotions have once again gotten the best of you and clouded the truth that’s right in front of you. Don’t you get it? If a 60 year old with a beer belly and questionable hygiene desires a relationship with you, you should thank your lucky stars and latch onto that hunk! After all, he’s biologically much more attracted to 25 year olds. It’s only due to his personal evolution that he could possibly prefer or urrr… settle for you. After all, those 25 year olds are practically knocking his door down. But no, he is much too evolved to give in. Pffffttt!!!! (Sarcasm intended) 😉

        1. Emily, the original

          KK,

          If a 60 year old with a beer belly and questionable hygiene desires a relationship with you, you should thank your lucky stars and latch onto that hunk

          I will! I would be lucky if any man would want me at this stage of my life. I have been writing incarcerated men all weekend in hopes of making a connection.

          You know what kills me? How often have the male posters on here said that women stop wanting to have sex with their husbands because they weren’t initially, “viscerally” attracted to them. You know who I’m “viscerally” attracted to? THE HEMSWORTH BROTHERS! Yes, even women have to override their basic instincts when looking for LTRS.

        2. KK

          Emily,

          “I have been writing incarcerated men all weekend in hopes of making a connection”.

          A word of advice: Please be patient with all the letter writing. I’ve enjoyed much success by waiting almost an entire week after initially sending 7 – 10 letters. Invariably, you’ll go for days with no response and then bam! they all flood your mailbox at once. I’m just cautioning you about TOO MANY options given our hypergamous ways. Much luck, dear! 😂😂😂

        3. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I’m just cautioning you about TOO MANY options given our hypergamous ways.

          Well, I would gladly chuck a lifer over for a man who only has a few years left! A girl’s got to do what a girl’s got to do! I warned all of them in my letters to be prepared if I show up for a visit — my skin looks bad and my butt has hit the floor, but they were probably expecting that given my advanced age.

        4. KK

          “Well, I would gladly chuck a lifer over for a man who only has a few years left”!

          Emily! No no no! You WANT the lifer. Trust me on this. No competition. Visiting on YOUR terms. Pretty perfect. Lol.

          ((Sorry, Evan. I’ll stop now. 😊))

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the orignal

          How often have the male posters on here said that women stop wanting to have sex with their husbands because they weren’t initially, “viscerally” attracted to them.

          There are men who have done the same thing.  That is what I did with my ex.  I will not repeat that mistake.

           

           

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          My point was that women can’t always land the men they are viscerally attracted to. Thus, the Hemsworth brothers reference.

        7. Emily, the original

          KK,

          You WANT the lifer. Trust me on this. No competition

          Until a younger woman starts writing him.   🙂

      2. 29.1.2
        Selena

        Sarcasm acknowledged.

        I was in my late 30’s when I met the older partner I loved. Under 45, with the casual sit’s. Wouldn’t have considered a man 15 yrs. older when I was 25.   Ick! is what I would have thought at that age about someone so much older wanting to date me.

        1. Emily, the original

          Selena,

          Wouldn’t have considered a man 15 yrs. older when I was 25.   Ick! is what I would have thought at that age about someone so much older wanting to date me.

          Me, neither.

  30. 30
    Shaukat

    @Selena,

    You’re right, perhaps I should have addressed you directly. I wrote to Emily because her comment seemed to suggest that men were insulting older women, and I wasn’t sure who she was referring to. I’ll acknowledge that I was too quick to throw out the the ‘defensive’ and ‘insecure labels, sorry.

    @ Emily and KK,

    I agree that it’s pointless and counterproductive for men to post statements that older women are not attractive or are useless. I haven’t done that, and I don’t think the debate Chance and GWTF were having on fertility was driven by such a motive.

     

    1. 30.1
      Emily, the originalaa

      Shaukat,

      You are a considerate commenter. I don’t agree with everything you write (and that’s ok!), but you are not mean-spirited.

      I don’t think the debate Chance and GWTF were having on fertility was driven by such a motive.

      On a completely selfish level, I don’t care about the fertility issue. I never wanted kids, but there was this implication that a man is having to deny the women he is really physically attracted to because he a.) can’t get them and b.) knows that less physically attractive women offer better relationship potential. It’s similar to the alpha fux/beta bux argument.

    2. 30.2
      GoWiththeFlow

      Shaukat,

      Just for the record, because things can get shouty sometimes, on that thread neither you nor Chance said women past a certain age were unattractive or useless.  As far as I can remember, you two never have.

      Emily,

      “. . . there was this implication that a man is having to deny the women he is really physically attracted to because he a.) can’t get them and b.) knows that less physically attractive women offer better relationship potential. It’s similar to the alpha fux/beta bux argument.”

      I’m liking the AF/BB analogy.  Everyone understands that they aren’t perfect and their partner overlooks some things.  No one wants to feel they were their partner’s Plan D.  I do wonder however if for men it’s similar to the Travis Fimmel example I gave.  I can say a young male CK underwear model is the epitome of hot.  But it’s like looking at art in a museum I will never posses and probably wouldn’t want to, I just want to look.  It’s so far beyond the bounds of reality that there isn’t any real emotional power to it.

       

      1. 30.2.1
        Emily, the original

        Hi GoWiththeFlow,

        I think the alpha fux/beta bux analogy is perfect here. It’s the equivalent of being told men are attracted to younger women but override that when choosing a partner. How about women who hook up with alpha men? The alphas hang in their subconscious as some kind of sexual ideal but when she goes to find a partner, she marries the nice guy who keeps calling and showing up.

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