My Boyfriend of 7 Years Doesn’t Want to Move In or Get Married. What Should I Do?

My Boyfriend of 7 Years Doesn’t Want to Move In or Get Married. What Should I Do?

I am 40 and my boyfriend is 36. I have been previously married and have three kids 17, 15, and 10. He has none. We have been together for 7 years now. I have wanted to move in and get married since year two. He always says he “isn’t ready.”  

A year ago he started living with me, kind of. He keeps all of his clothes at my house sleeps there every night and spends his down time there even when I am not home. I recently said I want him to fully move in because I think it would be financially better. He still keeps his apartment with his things in it. He calls it his “studio” (he is an artist) and he, after a huge disagreement, finally agreed it was the right thing to do.  

Well, the day before the big move he backed out. He said he wasn’t ready and that he didn’t want to promise me anything in the future for fear of hurting me. He wants to keep it the way it is. I am so confused. We are really happy as long as we don’t talk about this kind of commitment. I believe he is in love with me but what do I do? Wait? I am confused what is going to change in his mind. He keeps saying he will lose himself and everything he loves to do if he moves in and gets married. He just sounds like a child to me. I appreciate your advice. Thank you. 

Sincerely,

Cahnie

This is going to be really hard for you to accept, Cahnie, but there’s no other way to say it:

Your boyfriend doesn’t want to marry you.

He’s never going to want to marry you.

If he actually DID marry you, it would be largely against his will and he’d end up resenting you for it.

And if you twisted his arm to get married and he resented you for it, it would probably not be a very happy marriage.

If he actually DID marry you, it would be largely against his will and he’d end up resenting you for it.

I know you just wrote me a three-paragraph email and I’m telling you to completely erase the past seven years, but, well, what were you expecting?

In fact, I’m going to guess that what I’ve just written only goes to confirm what you already know deep in your heart.

“I have wanted to move in and get married since year two.” 

“He always says he isn’t ready.”

“The day before the big move, he backed out.” 

“He didn’t want to promise me anything in the future for fear of hurting me.” 

“He keeps saying he will lose himself and everything he loves to do if he moves in and gets married.”

Honestly, sweetheart, the writing is on the wall in ten-foot fluorescent orange letters. GET OUT!

The fact is that he doesn’t want to move in with you or marry you – if he did, he’d have done it years ago. He has a relationship completely on his terms, and you didn’t have the guts to walk away in Year 3.

Now’s your chance.

Honestly, sweetheart, the writing is on the wall in ten-foot fluorescent orange letters. GET OUT!

Unless you want to write me this same exact email in one year, which is exactly what I predict if you don’t break up with him NOW.

P.S. If you NEVER want to get married and are content with this arrangement, you can keep seeing him, but you know what? He’s STILL going to break up with you eventually, so you might as well begin the healing process now.

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Comments:

  1. 151
    Tom10

    @ Julia
    “I don’t have sex with 99.99999999999999999999% of men because I don’t want to have sex with them”
     
    Yes, but you’re part of the 20% of women who can have sex and not be upset if you never see the guy again.
     
    For the 60%/80% of women (my guess) who can’t do this, one of the reasons they hold back on having sex right after meeting a guy they’re really attracted to is the fear that he will disappear once he gets sex.
     
    I don’t know how many times I’ve met a woman, gone back to her bed and then had to spend the night frustrated and cuddling. They keep saying: “I really want to have sex with you, but I can’t.” I assume what they mean is if they have sex and I don’t call they’d be quite upset. Or maybe it’s because they’re worried I might think they’re a slut? Either way something is preventing them from having NSA sex, even though they’d really like to.
     
    I didn’t mean to infantilize women, rather have a clear conscience: believe it or not, a lot of men try their best not to hurt women by dumping them after sex / leading them on etc.
     
    But if you’re telling me that women attaching due to sex isn’t true, or just a social construct, then we’ve been worrying about nothing really.

  2. 152
    Kathleen

    For the people who dont understand oxytocin and bonding being hard wired for women…. Read or listen to talks articles or published books by anthropologist Helen Fisher PHD . Women do bond from the effects of oxytocin produced from orgasm with sex  Its the same powerful hormone that bonds her to her newborn baby. To say that mechanism is a social construct is an uninformed and uneducated point of view.
    Women can have no strings attached sex if they have higher levels of testosterone, or they are able to disassociate . I have a friend who was molested as a child .she can disassociate and have casual sex because shes now wired that way as a result of trauma and self preservation But Helen says , over time a woman will be fighting her own biology. Its neuroscience. 
    Wendy Walsh PHD talks about women adopting a more male model of sex as they become more avoidant living in a society where people move around a lot and the current sexual economy of todays times 
    If you look at science and anthropolgy, NSA sex for women is not a natural or fulfilling model of female sexuality. 

  3. 153
    Julia

    @Tom10
     
    For the 60%/80% of women (my guess) who can’t do this, one of the reasons they hold back on having sex right after meeting a guy they’re really attracted to is the fear that he will disappear once he gets sex.
    But what you are saying here contradicts your previous statement. Its not that they literally could care less about a guy but are terrified if they have sex they will start caring just as he disappears, its that they like the guy BEFORE they have sex with him and want to make sure he is not just using them. I can have sex without bonding, this doesn’t mean I want to be used by a man I am interested in.

  4. 154
    Julia

    @Kathleen
     
    Interesting article that I will preface with this quote:
     
    Let’s take a look at what oxytocin is. Let me preempt what you’re about to read by saying that we not only still know very little about oxytocin, we still know very little about all neurochemicals and how they affect our feelings and actions. If someone says they know something absolute and definitive about oxytocin and what it does in our bodies, that’s a big pseudoscience red flag. 
    http://io9.com/5606765/myths-about-the-love-hormone-oxytocin-that-could-ruin-your-love-life
     
     

  5. 155
    Goldie

    #152 wow that’s a lot of assumptions for one post. While there may be some truth to the statement that some women, to some degree, attach to men after sex, it is IMO being blown completely out of proportion these days. Just like romantic love in the 19th century, oxytocin is supposed to sweep us off our feet and render us incapable of making our own decisions.
     
    As an aside, I’m seeing an interesting trend lately, where, now that patriarchal laws no longer apply, people tend to wrap these same patriarchal ideas into articles and scientific publications, and try to push them on us again, this time in the name of science. Anyone that disagrees is by definition anti-science. If the person disagrees with something that’s being stated under the blanket of evo psych or evo biology, there’s an added bonus of calling that person anti-evolution, implying that they’re a closet Creationist. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
     
    TL;DR: I do not need a PhD that has articles and publications to tell me how I feel.
     
    Also, I cannot believe we are arguing about what is natural and what is not, in people’s sex lives, in the 21st century. Breaking news, if it’s legal and everyone involved gave their consent, it’s natural.
     

  6. 156
    Fusee

    It’s always interesting when scientific findings explain/confirm empirical experiences, but it’s constricting to use those findings as a go-to explanation or to invalidate opposite observations. As a scientist myself, I’m constantly exposed to the fallacies of science: the biais of what the mind believes and wants to prove at any price, the too narrow sample pools, the barely-there statistical significance of data, the elimination of critical contributing factors, etc. I still value science and give more weight to data over random beliefs or opinions, but I do not worship at the science altar any more. I trust empirical experience and intuition as well, especially when it’s about informing personal choices and values.
     
    So when women share that they feel incredibly bonded after climaxing in the arms of a new lover, I believe them. I also believe women who say that for them sex does not do trigger much more emotion than good pleasure in the moment. There will never be one way of experiencing “woman-ness” or “man-ness” because if we certainly are influenced by social constructs, we’re also extremely driven by our personal biochemistry, the way we were raised, and how we choose to live our sexuality.
     
    For me what bonds me to a man are two kinds of energies:
     
    1. Hope. It would happen in my mind very quickly and unconsciously (I now have control over this but it took a while). As soon as mutual feelings of attraction and interest would be shared, my internal hope machine would kick in and make me wish the man to be the one. I suspect it’s true for most relationship-oriented women who long for sharing their life with a loving partner. That’s why women complain about having been led on, strung along, etc. The guy said/did a few things that meant little for him in the moment but that fed the woman’s hope machine before anything has even had the time to truly start.
     
    2. Intimacy. It happens later since it involves sharing more than the attraction and excitement of the first meeting and dates, but for me, it’s not just about sex. For example, what bonds me around sex is less the sex itself than everything else that happens as a result of having sex: spending the night and waking up together, getting out of the shower with wet hair, sharing breakfast, all these little intimate things that trigger the feeling of partnership and relationship. However what truly bonds me to someone is when I trust enough to start opening up to what makes me feel vulnerable and realizing that I am being accepted nevertheless.
     
    That’s why I think the bonding process is different between a woman who will primarily feels more vulnerable through sharing her love and a woman who will feel most vulnerable sharing physical intimacy. It will also be different for men who might have completely different vulnerabilities. Different things make people feel vulnerable. For me it always comes back to the physical as it just so happens that my vulnerabilities and weaknesses are mostly physical (and not just around sex, but physical stamina, and other physical aspect of myself), so I will continue to need a lot of security to open up my physical side to a man irrespective of oxytocin and other chemicals, whereas I have no difficulty giving my love early on. But I can totally see why it would be different for another woman with different vulnerabilities.

  7. 157
    J

    Agree with the ladies and especially Selena 141

  8. 158
    marymary

    Fusee
    Yes people are different.  Evolution works because nature loves variety. Not everyone is the same or one virus, or natural disaster, or even social change would wipe us all out.  Some will survive and they’ll start mutating.  
    There are fish that change sex according to their environment. Maybe we’ll be doing that some day.
     
     
     

  9. 159
    Henriette

    I definitely believe that there are women who can have NSA sex.  No doubt in my mind, even though I’m not one of them. 
     
    However, I also know that there are many, many women who are not sure which camp they fall into.  Or, they might be able to have casual sex with two guys and not think a thing about it but with the third, for some reason, they are terribly hurt and sad if it doesn’t lead to more.   And I have plenty of male friends who’ll sleep with a woman who’ll assure him that she’s just horny and wants nothing more than a fun sexual release but will then shoot him dirty looks when they see him out on a date with another woman, two weeks later. 
     
    My overall point is, it’s idea when men and women need are honest not only with each other but also with themselves. 

  10. 160
    Mallarde

    From a guy’s perspective, I meet so many women that have wasted prime years because they dated the “wrong” type of guy.  It is hard to be accepting of these situations, and I find myself increasingly hostile to them.
    Consider how your prospective future husbands will feel when they learn about this seven-year live in relationship where some guy refused to marry you and you would not give up on him.  Now you are seven years older (yes, it matters even if you pretend it doesn’t) and have been scarred by this man from your past.  You gave him full access to you for seven years without marrying him.  
    Now the next guy will feel like he does not rock your boat quite as much because you are forcing him to marry you after one year or two years.

  11. 161
    Henriette

    Mallarde, when I am hit on by a 60 yr-old paunchy dude who was recently left by his supposedly-subservient mail-order bride, I politely reject his advances and move on.  When I meet a 42 year-old who spent his 30s bedding all manner of women he didn’t care about, I wish him luck and keep going.  We all encounter people who spent time in bad situations.  If we feel that they’ve displayed such poor judgement or values so out of line with our own, it’s probably best that we not date them.
    Quite frankly, the fact that you are “increasingly hostile” to women who’ve “wasted” time with unsuitable partners is disturbing.  Why the animosity?   If you think it such a terrible mistake that a woman chose to spend 7 years living with a man who didn’t want to marry her, then don’t date her!  It really is that simple.  And let’s hope that any perceived flaws you might possess will be met with greater kindness and understanding by the women you wish to date. 
     
     
     
     

  12. 162
    Kiki

    @Katleen 152 and others,
    “If you look at science and anthropolgy, NSA sex for women is not a natural or fulfilling model of female sexuality”.
    This statement is misleading because it equals natural to fulfilling. It is exactly a demonstration of the social construct I am talking about: theories that have you believe that something is natural and hence fulfilling. I argue that this statement is wrong in two ways
    1) assuming that biologically women can not have sex for sex only but need a relationship for that
    2) assuming causality between a biological predisposition (levels of oxitocyn)and a moral/psychological category (fulfilment).
    I have also, like many of you, read several articles on oxytocin, dopamin, endorphines, etc.. Please note that there is a difference between medical theories explaing human behavior, and medical facts.
    Women choose not to have NSA sex for various reasons – unwanted pregancy, STDs, personal security. Very importantly, women require more time to become sexually aroused (due to lower testosterone levels and that is a medical fact and not a theory) and require more attentive sex/lovemaking in order to experience orgasm. A short, NSA encounter is thus much more likely to result in no orgasm for the woman than for the man. I think that we women get upset when we add insult to injury – not only he was a lousy lover, but also did no like me enogh to call me again!
    I think it is a smart strategy for a woman to be selective with whom she has sex with for various reason, including to have a relationship as a prerequisite to make sure your lover would  care enough to do his best to satisfy you.  If women were not brainwashed from the day they are born that virginity has a value and that being monogamous increases your value as a woman, they would be able to clearly spell out their sexual needs to the men they date, and they would not have stupic reactions like the one Tom decribed “I really want to have sex with you, but I can’t.”

  13. 163
    Kathleen

    Kiki 162 
    Of course women can have random sex for various reasons eg todays sexual economy as I mentioned. But what writers and researchers like Fisher say is that  women are hard wired to bond   So a women who is having  orgasmic sex with a guy over time will likely become attached to him unless she can disassociate . 
     
     
     

  14. 164
    J

    I’m with henriette 161- Mallarde, if you don’t want to date them, how do their choices effect you?

  15. 165
    Rose

    Dissasociating is only a good thing when someone is in a helpless trauma situation as self protection. Rape/ abuse, car accidents etc  where someone can’t escape.
    If this is happening at other times it’s not a good thing and therapy will be needed to help overcome this problem. Or if no help has been given for past trauma situations to help when freeze response and disacciation has occured and not been released from the body.
    It is not a good thing to be recommending o encouraging women to learn to dissacioate during sex or any other situations. Our bodies will automatically do this for us in the trauma situations I previously noted.
     

  16. 166
    Kathleen

    Rose #165  
    I couldnt agree more  

  17. 167
    Karmic Equation

    @Fusee #156

    “…so I will continue to need a lot of security to open up my physical side to a man irrespective of oxytocin and other chemicals, whereas I have no difficulty giving my love early on. But I can totally see why it would be different for another woman with different vulnerabilities.” [Emphasis mine]

    Interesting…I’m not sure I agree that giving of one’s love or giving of one’s body is about sharing our vulnerablities. I believe both are gifts that you bequeath the worthy. But what makes a man worthy to each woman is subjective. And depending on what you seek, you have different criteria for worthiness. For example, while some men might make good boyfriends, they’re fun, spontaneous, carefree, etc; those qualities might not translate to stable, steady, reliable, that we need in a husband. I think that if women are seeking husbands, women need to date husband-material men, which means that they can’t date a bf-type guy and then “hope” that he’ll become the husband-type guy someday. And I will agree that most husband-material guys would be willing to have sex on the woman’s schedule (a la Fusee’s husband) as opposed to player-types, who bail when you don’t have sex on HIS schedule (a la Tom10 ;)). And I only mean this for women in my generation. Women in their 20′s and early 30′s have time to take that gamble. But women of my generation don’t have that time to waste.

    @Kathleen 163

    So does that mean men are hardwired to play? If that is so, why is it that we women expect men to change their wiring (e.g., give up playing) but we’re not expected to change ours (e.g., have NSA sex)?

    I think this goes back to my “Women have the power but prefer to abdicate it” position. It’s so that we women don’t have to do any work on ourselves. Let the men change, not us!

    While I agree with Kiki overall, unlike her, I do believe that oxytocin (together with other hormones) DOES have some effect — I’ve felt those effects myself. However, I DON’T believe that we are incapable of fighting off their effects if we actually want to do it. (I’ve actually worked to overcome those effects. NSA without attachment feelings didn’t come naturally to me.) In other words, I believe neither women nor men are slaves to their hormones.

    I was lucky in that I had oxytocin bonding feelings for a man with whom I did NOT enjoy the sexual experience. That dissonance made me aware that the bonding feelings that come after sex are going to happen regardless of whether the man is a good man or whether the sex is good sex. For most women, they probably never had that dissonance (e.g., they had good sex with a man they felt was a good man) so it felt “natural” to bond to him. For me, it was a weird feeling to want to bond to a man I didn’t know, with whom I had sex I didn’t really like.

    From that I learned then that I’m going to have feelings, but I learned not to BELIEVE IN or SUCCUMB TO those feelings. They’re NOT real. For me that oxytocin high lasts about 4-5 days. After that, the guy is just a guy, not “the most special guy in the world” that he was within those 5 days after sex. But after that 5 days or so, I “miss” the guy…but I realize it’s not really the guy I miss, but the high that came with sex. So I want to “see” the guy, not really for him, but really because I want that oxytocin high again.

    I learned the latter when I had NSA sex with a man I deemed not-bf-material. So I knew he was not-bf material when I had sex with him. Felt some bonding during that 5-day period, where I started to question myself, “Well, he really is a nice guy. He’s fun. yada yada”. After 5 days, I go back to “Oh, yeah, he’s totally not bf-material for me.”

  18. 168
    Goldie

    Hey ladies, do us a goddamn favor and stop diagnosing us over the internet and drawing parallels with PTSD victims, okay? Thanks XOXO
     
    I actually think Selena’s #141 is spot on. I strongly suspect it is not the oxytocin that causes the majority of the bonding. It’s the faulty line of thinking along the lines of, Now that I’ve had sex with this guy, he’s going to have to make an honest woman out of me and propose. Then she’s shocked to the core of her being when he doesn’t. Well, he had no idea he had to!

  19. 169
    Kathleen

    Karmic #167
    I work in neuroscience and appreciate reading about interesting research by experts in their field.  I dont think anyone has made the claim that I know of, that we are powerless over neurotransmitters hormones etc… I think womens sexuaity is complex as others have described
    I dont expect men to change how their wired but probably like you, Ive grown to understand them better and know how to use my own power. Lately Ive learnt what an aphrodisiac the word NO is to guys, and Ive learnt that men have to trust you before they love you.
    Ive suffered from the “sexover” myself Having a high for a few days and then if the guy disappears, plummeting into a funk which makes me think it wasnt worth it .  Thats how heroin works too I guess. Good at the time …
     

  20. 170
    Fusee

    @Karmic Equation #167: “Interesting…I’m not sure I agree that giving of one’s love or giving of one’s body is about sharing our vulnerablities. I believe both are gifts that you bequeath the worthy.”
     
    I’m not saying that giving love and/or sex equates sharing our vulnerabilities, but that the process of becoming willing to share love and/or sex with someone is connected to our vulnerabilities. If nothing could hurt us, if nothing would trigger fear, we would give love and sex to everyone freely. Who we deem “worthy”, when we deem them “worthy”, etc is to my opinion directly connected to our fears, therefore vulnerabilities.
     
    If sharing physical intimacy does not trigger fear, then we share our bodies freely with whoever we feel attracted to. That’s what you do. If giving unconditional positive regard does not trigger fear, then we offer our acceptance to everyone. That’s actually what I do in my volunteer job. We all have fears (sometimes very well disguised : ) and they dictate our choices, even who we are attracted to. I was sharing a bit of mine, which are mostly connected to my physical side for some reasons.
     
    “I think that if women are seeking husbands, women need to date husband-material men, which means that they can’t date a bf-type guy and then “hope” that he’ll become the husband-type guy someday.”
     
    I totally agree with you about the importance to date with your end goal in mind. If you want some fun immediate gratification, you go for boyfriend-material men. If you want to build a future with someone who is actually able to, you date husband-material men. Those men act very differently over the first few weeks/months of dating, especially in communication and conflict resolution. It does not take seven years and a pseudo-cohabitation to find out.
     
    “And I will agree that most husband-material guys would be willing to have sex on the woman’s schedule (a la Fusee’s husband)…”
     
    That’s true, but only if he thinks the lady is wife-material as well, and if he actually sees himself married one day. Some husband-material men do not want to be married : ) Also, most husband-material men will go for flings in the meantime or as a way to start a relationship, not really knowing how to do otherwise. My husband/then-boyfriend had a fling in mind for us as he was living in my area short-term. Would not have occured to him to look for his wife three states away, and he was not yet in that mindset anyway. But I said no to the fling concept by slowing down the physical part among other things, so he quickly realized that he only had two options: going to the next woman or getting to know me to evaluate our potential for a more serious track : )
     
    Quick clarification though, so that the dynamics between me and my husband/then-boyfriend do not appear as they are not: I definitely delayed sharing physical intimacy as much as I could to build up emotional intimacy first and find out whether we had an actual chance for the long-term, but I did go for sex earlier than my “ideal” timeline for the sake of my man, and the logistics of our relationship (and ahem, I was just too horny and getting tired of the vibrator : ). I was not that rigid and he was not going to follow just any timeline ; )

  21. 171
    Karmic Equation

    @Fusee 170

    I usually follow your train of thought, but this one you lost me.

    How can you equate giving “unconditional positive regard” to the homeless to giving love to a man in the romantic sense? They’re different kinds of love. Not even in the same ball park. I think you’re reaching on trying to justify why most women will give away her emotional love freely while withholding her physical love, which sends the wrong message, imo. She values her body more than her love.

    I understand that women want to build the connection. But the connection isn’t from woman to man, it’s to try to ensure that the MAN builds a connection to the woman. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just be honest about it. I also have a theory that since most women are attracted more to men of status (rich, powerful) — these men are often, how shall I say, not as physically attractive as others she might date. So it actually takes time for a woman to build up her attraction to this somewhat unattractive guy. So the less good looking the man, the longer it takes for her to build up enough attraction to have sex with him. The way that happens is she finds in him the qualities she needs to fall in love with him, which ends up making him physically attractive to her…but that takes time.

    With this theory, it’s quite possible that women who feel played feel that way if she’s having sex with a dude she thinks is below her league, and then he doesn’t call back or otherwise disappears, that’s got to sting (adding insult to injury as Kiki wrote). And if she’s dating out of her league, she needs to be aware of that, because most men when they’re ready for LTRs, particularly marriage, will look to marry someone above their own league, so she’s out, unless she has an amazing personality (or she herself is richer or more powerful than he, a la Teresa Heinz, John Kerry’s wife).

  22. 172
    Fusee

    @Karmic Equation #171: Ok, it was not the best comparison indeed! What I tried to express is that for some, it’s easier to open up physically first, and for others, it’s easier to open up emotionally first. And I’m suggesting that this preference is based on what we need to trust, hence on our vulnerabilities.
     
    After that, it’s me who got lost. I get what you are saying, but I do not see how that has anything to do with the topic of trust and being ready to be vulnerable. But myabe there is no correlation, and that’s cool. Also, your theories about status and leagues might be valid to some, but so unapplicable to me that it’s real hard to relate. I’m attracted to people kind of like me, not ridiculously rich or handsome, but not ugly and dumb. Just a nice above-average normal ha ha.
     
    But yeah, if (generic) you are interested in a long-term relationship, this is the emotional connexion that matters. And it’s usually the woman’s job to help men find love while they’re on their quest for sex ; ) And this, folks, is the art of dating.

  23. 173
    TheThinker

    #170
    But I said no to the fling concept by slowing down the physical part among other things, so he quickly realized that he only had two options: going to the next woman or getting to know me to evaluate our potential for a more serious track : )
     
    Bingo! That is an effective way to get a man to become serious with you, and consider you wife material. NSA will push him in opposite direction. I wish more women in this part of the world knew how men think. The degree of “man-ignorance” among western women is astounding. I have dealt with Caribbean, African and even Polish women. They are far more man-savvy than most women I have met in this part of the world

  24. 174
    Marie

    @Karmic – thanks!  He blurted out the word girlfriend at date 4 (2 weeks) and was so embarrassed at my somewhat horrified expression (I was just surprised) that I had to address it formally again 2 weeks later. :-D
     
    @ Mimi thanks! Interesting!

  25. 175
    Henriette

    @Fusee – as always, I love reading what you write.  If it’s not too personal a question… would you mind helping me understand the kind of time-line you’re talking about?  When some people say taking it slow, they mean a few weeks instead of a few nights; for others, it can mean more than a year.  And you wrote that you moved faster than your ideal timeline – what would that ideal timeline have been? 
     
    My questions no doubt sound prurient but you really seem to have your Sh*t together so it’s more that I want to better understand how you navigated these tricky waters.  Thx! :)

  26. 176
    Kiki

    @The Thinker
    I am neither western nor single but I find your opinions and attitude insulting. Women here and all around the world have the same amount of confusion about men as men have to women.
    Also, NSA sex is not ideal but is totally ok for some women and they are neither sluts nor stupid, they simply really enjoy sex. A woman actually smartens up from having had several flings – and she would normally learn to choose away from the sexists and the hypocrites, as she goes along.

  27. 177
    Rose

    This is the way I see it.
    As a woman If what I want is to have sex as part of a loving committed relationship. I value myself enough to only have sex under those terms and circumstances.
    If I make myself available for sex without the committiment of being a loving committed relationship. My value is then in my availabilty for sex without love, comittiment or relationship. Plenty of men out there who are going to take me up on that offer which is all fine and dandy if i only want sex without being in a loving comiitted relationship
    So it’s up to the individual to decide what they want. And then date people who are on the same page. If casual sex is what you want without relationship or comiitiment date as men and women as you want and have as much casual sex as you both want.
    If what you want is to be in a loving monogomous committed relationship where you have sex to show your expression of love for each other, then date as many women or men as you want until a relationship organically develops over time and there is a declaration of love and desire on both sides to only be in a monogomous relationship with each other, then have sex to show your expression of that love for each other. You will have to wait longer for sex this way as relationships and love not lust take time to naturally develop.
    Only the individual knows what they want. And what they want to make themselves available for with their actions.
     

  28. 178
    Goldie

    TheThinker, nice try, but no one has NSA with marriage plans in mind. You do know it stands for No Strings Attached, right? 
     
    Like I said, I haven’t had NSA this time around, (turned down a few offers from my male buddies) and do not plan to do so anytime soon. But not because it’d make me damaged goods in those men’s eyes, make them not want to marry me (probably a good thing since I don’t plan to remarry), or some other 19 century stuff. Just because the possible ramifications do not justify the benefits, and by ramifications, I don’t mean myself getting attached. I mean the men’s reaction. Even the ones that do not get attached, really dislike being told there’ll be no second time if the sex was meh. It’s humiliating to a man, I imagine. Neither do I feel like bringing people into my house for that. As you notice, these are all very different reasons from “if I have sex with him, I’ll fall in love before I even get out of bed, cuz biology” I am not 16; I don’t “fall” in love. I might come to love a man after some time spent together as a couple. And, if I do, it’ll be a conscious decision on my end.
     
    Oh and, having come here from Eastern Europe at age 29, I am hardly a western woman. (And, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t KE identify as Asian?) Actually, seeing as I have a lot of guy friends and two grown sons, I don’t consider myself man-unaware either. I just don’t want to get married again and have anymore kids. I want a partner, that I might one day move in with, but that’s it. There are several of us on this thread. Yea if I wanted to marry up and start an upper-middle-class family with a nice WASP boy from an upper-middle-class background, and especially if I knew my time was running out, I’d probably be following your instructions to a T. But this is really the last thing I want.

  29. 179
    Kiki

    Kathleen,
    what i want to make you see is that not only women are hardwired to bond, human beings are hard wired to bond. Men bond too and get hurt when they are rejected too, to the women they really like. If you believe bonding is an inherently female behavior but not a male one, you will think that a woman who can have nsa sex is abnormal whereas a man who can not is also abnormal.
    Both are normal and natural behaviors and depend much more on the personal value system and societal norms than on biology.
    Defining women who can have nsa sex as abnormal/unnatural and shaming women for such behaviors are mechanis to hold women in submission and prevent them from feeling equally free to explore their sexuality.  

  30. 180
    Kathleen

    Kiki #179
    ah…. I was with my ex husband for 22 years. Why would you assume i dont think men bond? 
    Ive already mentioned female sexuality is complex Women have sex for all sorts of reasons.  Im one of the biggest feminists out there and would never shame women for NSA sex Hell Ive done it myself 
    However I believe NSA sex, at least for me is actually not that great .I  believe its difficult for most women to have NSA over an extended time with a partner, and not get attached. So you risk being hurt by someone that has little invested in you.
    I listened to a talk by Wendy Walsh recently  She said a guy could sleep with the same woman for six months and not feel any differently about her. She also said its hard wired that men have ,after all this time, a double standard of women. Its not fair,!!!!!! But its exists today for reasons she can explain if you look her up . Thats why I think the THinker # 173 made his comment (Which doesnt insult me). His point is backed by what Walsh says. So if you are really interested in a guy and want something longer term, then take things slower and have the discussions that Evan advises.  
     

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