Men Do Twice as Much Housework and Childcare as They Did in 1965

Men Do Twice as Much Housework and Childcare as They Did in 1965

I sent this article to my intern. She set it up on the blog with the title “Study Shows Fathers Spend 50% Less Time on Parenting”.

I’m telling you this because it’s a fascinating microcosm of how statistics can be used to illustrate almost anything, depending on your perspective.

While more women are working full-time than ever before, that does NOT mean that this is what most women actually WANT.

The REAL reason I posted this article, of course, was not to illustrate that Moms are better than Dads at child-rearing – what constructive good could come out of that?

I posted this piece from Pew Social Trends to reveal that, in general, men and women have different thoughts about what they want their domestic lives to look like.

For example, “While a nearly equal share of mothers and fathers say they wish they could be at home raising their children rather than working, dads are much more likely than moms to say they want to work full time. And when it comes to what they value most in a job, working fathers place more importance on having a high-paying job, while working mothers are more concerned with having a flexible schedule.”

It’s important to emphasize this. While more women are working full-time than ever before, that does NOT mean that this is what most women actually WANT.

“Only 16% of adults say the ideal situation for a young child is to have a mother who works full time. A plurality of adults (42%) say mothers working part time is ideal, and one-third say it’s best for young children if their mothers do not work at all outside of the home.”

While my intern put the emphasis of the article on statistics like this: “Analysis shows that fathers devote significantly less time than mothers to child care (an average of seven hours per week for fathers, compared with 14 hours per week for mothers),” such statistics are incredibly misleading about the larger trends, which show that men are doing nearly three times more childcare than they were in 1965 and two and half times more housework, while working almost the same number of hours.

As for women, they’re doing 14 hours LESS housework and putting those hours instead towards PAID work, something that was far rarer in 1965.

The real fact is that, in order to have a successful partnership, SOMEONE has to work less and take care of the house and kids. And if you’re a career woman who does not want to take her foot off the gas, god bless you. No one is judging. It just means you’d better find a man who is willing to work part-time to handle domestic duties.

Or marry really rich, which is what most of my clients are still trying to do. :)

Read the report here and share your thoughts below.

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Helen

    Anita 20: you have me giggling aloud. You can represent me (the real you) anytime. :) Especially about the monkeys.
     
    Morris 2nd paragraph of 21: Oh my. You have no idea how often this exact topic – how clean is clean enough – gets brought up between my husband and me. Namely, we’re in agreement with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if this topic gets brought up in many marriages.
     
    As for your comment in 22, one hour difference over the course of a week means nothing if we consider slight differences in how people report time and statistical significance. What’s more important is how fulfilling the different categories of work are, both in terms of financial payment (one point Ruby alluded to) and how much it is enjoyed.
     
    Sparkling Emerald 24: I am a career woman who has never thought of a SAHM as all those negative things you mention. I think SAHMs have the hardest job in the world, in several ways. Of course you are not stupid or lazy.

  2. 32
    JoeK

    @ Valery North #8
    Which ever way you spin those statistics, it looks as though we’ve got another 50 years to wait until men and women contribute equally to household chores!
     
    How about this spin: We have another 50 years to go until men and women work equal hours at work, and bring home equal money! Or that men and women have equal loss of life risk at work!
     
    Again, cherry picking and statistical contortionism to promote your worldview isn’t honest.

  3. 33
    JoeK

    @Helen #15
    #11: whatever. You have already shown in other threads that you are biased against my comments, so it is hard to be concerned about your statements.
     
    I am biased against misinformation, cherry picking and your continual misrepresentation of what is said. You’ve repeatedly misrepresented Evan’s statements, and refuse to back up your opinions with fact, and are derisive to those who disagree with you.
     
    In this instance you claim to know why these women gave the answers they gave, with NO facts to support it – and you turned it into “women are victims of the system” – which is insulting to the women who were interviewed. I have enough respect for those women to take them at their word that they know what they want! I’m not so arrogant as to believe I’m the only person with self-awareness of my own biases and socialization.
     
    Is it possible that some of these women answered as they did fo rthe reasons you state. Sure. Is there a ssingel shred of evidence for it? No.
     
    Show us some support for your claim that these women aren’t responsible for their opinions.
     
    Oh, and keep the snark.

  4. 34
    Rose

    Isn’t it about inner core compatibility combined with reality a the end of the day?
    In an ideal world for me as a woman I like the idea of part time work. In the real world once I have children this is not that easy unless I tale low paid work that I do not REALLY want to do. So then I have yo make a choice of what means more to me.
    Also from what I see hear and observe, what most women get upset about is the AFTER WORK HOURS and weekend share of housework and childcare duties. That they are EXPECTED to do more than the men. And they are not ok with that like previous generations of women.

  5. 35
    Soulsister

    This is an age old arguement (well, at least since WWII when women entered the job market in droves because the men were off fighting the war).
    My sister would love to be a stay at home wife (not mom, she has no kids), yet her husband does not value the work she does at home to maintain a great home, healthy food, a calm environment. His mother worked (and took care of the home) so he thinks she should too.
    I am an executive woman (and single mom) who works long hous rand I prefer to work. One time my brother in law said something to me about wishing my sister had the same attitude about work as I do. My response was “you might want to think about that, I don’t have time to cook or clean, nor do I want to, but I know you enjoy those lovely home cooked meals and never needing to lift a finger at home”. Truthfully, he wants both!!
    You can’t have your cake and eat it too…you are damned if you want to work (not taking care of the home right) or damned if you want to stay home (she sure has it good all day long at home, wish she would get out there and make a few bucks to contribute).
    I stayed home for 7 years with the kids…it was hard, hard work, I would take going to work any day of the week, but did it because I felt it was good for the kids. I am now divorced and just the other day my ex said “if I didn’t have to share my retirement with you I could retire in a few years, but now I have to wait”…because he does not value that my years at home were to benefit HIS family and HIS KIDS too…. I am “taking” his retirement away from him.
    My last comment about this though, is that a woman who does not have a skill (work) in the marketplace typically does not have a $ value in the market, and sometimes, if she can’t make it on her own out there, she gets stuck in a marriage she would rather not stay in. Men have always got the option to leave, because they add $ value to the market and while they may have to share their income (alimony or child care), at least they can make one.
    Money is power, power is choice…always has been, always will be….so the family should decide what is best for them individually and both should appreciate and value the contribution the other makes, whether it is money or time.  But I think a woman should at least do something she can take to the marketplace if she needs to, through volunteer or part time work, so she is never at the mercy of someone else to survive.  Too many of my stay at home friends are stuck in that home and want to fly but can’t….

  6. 36
    JoeK

    @Anita #20
    This is my self-report and my choice of boldface text, and I’m standing by them both! As a woman who represents every woman!
     
    hahahahahhahaha…oh thank you for the laugh – well said! Thanks for pointing out some of the flaws that were immediately apparent in this study (as I mentioned earlier – I saw a number of flaws in it myself).
     
    Unfortunately we all too often view these concerns only through the lens of our own experience, in the current era, with little recognition of the real, valid, natural and historical influences that brought us to this point, and get caught up in just the recent social influences.
     
    Nature and history have both set some profound limitations on us – having a baby is a huge physical demand on women, biologically, and we have little tolerance for infant mortality today. Historically men have been the expendable gender (since war has been near constant throughout time) as you can rebuild a society with fewer men than women.These are not insignificant when considering how we arrived at today’s attitudes.
     
    The sequence of history in the last 500 years (Wester European Nation-State wars, nationalisim, transition from agriculturalism through industialization, post-industialization, two world wars, etc) are very significant influences on the goals of individuals. Just considering the attitudes of men and women who were born in the early 20th century (in context) is quite shocking and enlightening for those of us who grew up anytime from the Baby Boomers onward.
     
    Where am I going with this? It’s naive of us to consider the attitudes of previous generations (which we only perceive in aggregate) as somehow inherently wrong (this is a mistake that I think some of the more…aggressive…feminists made in the early days) . If we consider the attitudes in context of the events and circumstances of the era, we should find people making decisions to meet their own best interests given the circumstances.
     
    As the “norm” is just a reflection of what most people are doing to meet their own best interests at the time, then what is occuring in that time is ever so crucial to interpreting the norm. Given the difficulties seen by parents of Baby Boomers and their parents (generations of families lost due to war and privation, high infant mortality, etc ) it’s understandable that many of them saw the rebuilding of “normal family life” as an honest, worthwhile, fulfilling goal. After all – what’s more important than family?
     
    Only since the Boomers – the first generation to grow up with relative “ease” in life, have these other concerns (“I want to be fulfilled”!) become something of an option for the average person, and not just the wealthy classes. Unfortunately, I think we too often think we have this option (to be “fulfilled”) when we haven’t even fully met our security needs yet (good job, physically and mentally healthy, minimal debt, etc). Or we’ve chosen a definition for fulfillment that isn’t necesarily congruent with who we really are (hence the conflict over whether most women really do want to be stay at home moms).
     
    Sorry, long winded and maybe a little meandering, but it seemed appropriate given the subject.

  7. 37
    JoeK

    @Selena #28
     
    I agree there’s much ambiguity in there. Are there any specific conclusions you’re trying to draw from what you noted? (Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what you see).
     
    It would definitely be interesting for the number of people surveyed to be greater, and for the results to have more gender information. Unfortunately with that few respondents, gender results are nearly meaningless (heck, the whole study is fairly thin to start with).
     
    It’s interesting to note:
    Roughly 1/4 of respondents were parents with at least one child under 18 (643/2511) with 63 more mothers (2.5%) responding than fathers.
     
    Questions were asked in English and Spanish (so we’re possibly getting results which have a more Hispanic historical influence…which my understanding is more “traditional” considering the strong influence of Catholicism )
     
    Roughly 63% of interviews were via landline (so that will influence the age of respondents upward a bit). Pulling a number out of…the air…peopleover 30-something tend to more often have landlines than folks under 30-something.
     
    I have no conclusions from those points other than what I noted. I’d like to see this with a much larger pool of respondents so we can understand the influence of them better.

  8. 38
    Lia

    JoeK # 11
     
    Yes, you can pretty much predict that Hellen is going to go on a rant given half a chance.  
     
    Anita # 20 
     
    Glad to see that you are so willing to consider that there are other ways of looking at something and that ALL of us are NOT the same.  Shows real growth and maturity.  (In case you missed it, that was sarcasm.)  
     
    How can you possibly “know” what ALL women want.  
     
    marymary #25
     
    Well said as usual!

  9. 39
    Julia

    I’m not quite sure why anyone feels like they know what’s right for anyone else’s life but their own. To the women who stayed home and are happy that they did, I am happy for you. But can you understand that it doesn’t make every woman happy and its not their desire. I have friends who are SAHMs and friends who are working moms. As many are happy in each group as are unhappy. It seems like making a decision for themselves with a supportive partner makes the happiest women I know and women who are sort of forced into a situation and don’t have the support of their husbands are the unhappiest.  I think this just shows how important it is to discuss your actual desire in life and how you want to function as a family BEFORE you get married.

  10. 40
    Karmic Equation

    @Selena 28

    You bring up good questions. Probably similar to points that JoeK would have brought up when he wrote “There are a number of ways to approach critical analysis of these stats – I see flaws myself. But I won’t offer them here, because you’ll just cherry pick and misrepresent them anyway.” Admittedly his points would probably slant towards men’s POV as your Qs are slanted towards women’s POV.

    The difference is that your points will get a free ride from being misrepresented.

    ********
    @JoeK 11

    While I’m not offended as I’m not easily offended, I agree that “mature, smart women…aren’t afraid to acknowledge what’s important to them.” I didn’t have a problem letting folks know that if I had kids, I would continue working as I couldn’t see myself as a SAHM. Not enough patience. My exhubby, alpha and narcisistic, but who hated working yet was a patient man, loved the idea of being a SAHD. We didn’t care about “social stigma”. Alas, we didn’t end up with children. He would have been a great dad.

    *********
    #27

    Michelle’s comment fit my perception of the “archetypal feminist”, so I don’t see her comment as immature. Not P.C. perhaps, but we don’t care about political correctness on this board, right? You may not agree with her characterization of feminists but you’re the one who characterized herself as “butch”, which to most people means a manly woman, which typically is a woman men aren’t interested in.

    #17

    “Arbitrary social norms that keep people from rising to the top of their game, to the height of their talents, should be eradicated.”

    This sentiment would have so much more power if you didn’t contradict yourself on another thread.

    You should have added “but only if the person is pro-feminism.” You happily character-assassinated SV to “keep [her] from rising to the top of their game, to the height of their talents,..” — So by your standards, shouldn’t arbitrary ideologies such as feminism be eradicated also? If they have no place in society, they should have no place on a dating blog.

    Congruence = practicing what you preach.

  11. 41
    Helen

    Nothing in my comment #1 attacked anyone, nor my subsequent comments. Yet plenty have attacked me as a result of those comments, and they have gone through despite the rules of the blog.  
     
    I am finished with commenting on this blog. Best wishes to all. Thanks for your funny and insightful words, Evan, Goldie, nathan, Karl R, Ruby, Selena, Anita, Julia, JustMe, and many more. You have interesting life stories, and I wish I could meet you in person.

  12. 42
    JoeK

    @Soulsister #35
    Wow, very unfortunate circumstances for you and your sister. Well, really that your ex-husband clearly lacks some good perspective. I’m not sure how some men even today have the perspective he does – eveything the “family unit” needs (money/meals/clean domicile) has to be provided somehow. We all have our part to play in that – however a given couple determines that – of course you deserve your portion of what that unit produced!
     
    Your brother-in-law is just confusing. Did he not know she would prefer to be a stay-at-home before they were married? Sounds like they have conflicting values.

  13. 43
    Anita

    rel="nofollow">Anita@20: Hey, you! Stop speaking for
    ALL women! Who do you think you are?
    You know that only a man can tell a woman who and what she is!
    Preferably the man she gets married to and impregnated by (but
    any man who happens to be passing by will do if she’s some kind of
    loser who can’t keep a manor have a baby)! Marriage and babies
    are how any woman gains the right to speak about anything
    pertaining to his—I mean, her—own life! Hissssssss…..  
    Helen: See what happens? You go cherry-picking and take a good farm
    worker job away from a man who deserves it! He needs to feed his
    family! Or he won’t get any! And he likes cherries the best! That’s
    how the world really works! It’s just biology! Now burn that degree
    of yours because obviously you didn’t learn anything in that fancy
    fake biology school you went to and stay home with your kids! (We
    all know that secretly that is what you really want, because, well,
    you’re a woman! Duh!) And while you’re there at home, maybe some
    man can show you how to bake a cherry pie. Because it’s not like
    you as a woman can figure out anything unless a man shows you
    how or tells you how. And he’d better like that pie or
    I’m sure he’s going to go on a dating/relationship/man board and
    tell everyone how your bad pie just ruined all of his pleasure in
    life and he just can’t trust women to be women anymore. Stop acting
    like a man right now!    rel="nofollow">JoeK@36, rel="nofollow">Lia@38: I think you both misinterpreted
    my meaning. Hope this second, openly mocking post clarifies things.
      And for those who believe that biology (esp male biology)
    drives the whole world, here is the hilarious video of the monkey
    peeing in his own mouth (yes, the
    boldface is mine, and I’m sticking by it): rel="nofollow">http://animalvideo.org/?p=660

  14. 44
    Ruby

    Helen #17

    Thanks for posting the article on Joan Feynman. How tragic that the discrimination she faced both in academia and in the workplace – just for being a woman in a man’s field – caused her to doubt her own abilities, to have others given credit for her work, and to suffer from clinical depression. Bet you didn’t realize that you were single-handedly doing the same thing to Mrs. Venker right here on EMK’s blog! Oh, that’s right, you had some help from yours truly…
     
    But seriously, attacks on the personal appearance of people whom you’ve never actually seen, or strawman arguments, are a good way for those who can’t form a cogent argument of their own to deflect attention from their own shortcomings.
     
    Helen, you have many good insights. I’ve appreciated your sincerity, and I’ve learned a lot from your posts! I hope you’ll return!

  15. 45
    JustMe

    Evan – When did every blog become about “feminists” and how gender discrimination is all in our heads or still actually exists? 
     
    Helen – I find your posts insightful.  I’m sorry if you are really going,  I haven’t taken anything you have said as an attack on anyone and I do see that you are being singled out.
     
    Sorry

  16. 46
    Valery North

    @JoeK #32:

    “Which ever way you spin those statistics, it looks as though we’ve got another 50 years to wait until men and women contribute equally to household chores!”

    means exactly the same thing in terms of work/home balance as

    “How about this spin: We have another 50 years to go until men and women work equal hours at work, and bring home equal money!”

    And, I’m hoping that you do know that feminists are vocal about how women are paid significantly less than men for the same work?

    You kind of made my point for me.   How’s that for “cherry picking and statistical contortionism to promote your worldview”?

    Incidentally, I’m guessing you’re coming from more of a right-Hegelian dialectic with your comment #36, but I take a Marxist view of the same history that you describe, and to my mind it leads to people being freed from the bonds of social history, through understanding and taking control of those forces to the benefit of all.   Just as Richard Dawkins argues that human consciousness sets us free from biological imperatives, so that we can choose our own, better, ways of being (see also marymary #25).   We may have been shaped by history (or genetics) but we now stand at a point where we can free ourselves of their chains.
    – – –

    @ michelle #29

    “I love getting some of you riled up, that usually happens when the truth hits home”

    I find it also happens quite reliably when people present something as true that just isn’t, and that denies their existence or the validity of their experience.
    Incidentally, “As a mature woman, mother and wife, I made decisions that were good for my family, not in consideration of what people thought about me.”   The question isn’t why you made the choice on that basis, but why your partner didn’t use the same criteria for his choices?   Or was he, perhaps, being paid more than you and therefore it was “best” he work and you take a cut in hours, in which case, what societal pressures produced that wage differential?

  17. 47
    soulsister

    @JoeK #42, thanks for the comment, I like the way you put that “of course you deserve your portion of what that unit produced!”…think I might use that one on the ex, ha ha!
    As for my sister and her husband with conflicting values, they married at 19 and 21, I think no one has any idea yet what their values are that young. Luckily, they love each other very much in spite of differing ideas.  Plus she is over 50 now, she pretty much just does whatever she wants to and doesn’t really listen to his comments anymore.  One time he said it wasn’t important to him that she cooked dinner, but he got really tired of making his own sandwich night after night and changed his tune, lol!

  18. 48
    Selena

    Helen you are one of the commenters I look forward to reading on this blog along with the others you mentioned. It’s the exchange of ideas and perspectives I enjoy in the comment section that keep me interested and coming back to read. When they share personal experiences it adds depth and meaning to why they feel as they do.
     
    Over the years I’ve sometimes become exasperated by the sheer stubborness of some commenters. Their inability to acknowledge there may be some merit in another’s perspective even if it differs from their own.  Or if they cannot find any merit, why don’t they just scroll through those commenters they don’t *like*? Which is what I do, especially with commenters who become argumentative and long-winded. 
     
    Sometimes I’ve found it beneficial to take a break from reading here for weeks, a couple months.  When I come back the blog feels fresher to me and sometimes the commenters I found aggravating have gone elsewhere.  So if you need a break, take one.  I’m still going to look for your comments here in the event you decide to return. :)

  19. 49
    Rose

    Soulsister post 35.
    Sounds spot on to me.

  20. 50
    JoeK

    @Valerie #46
    “How about this spin: We have another 50 years to go until men and women work equal hours at work, and bring home equal money!

    But that’s not what you said in post #8:
    “Which ever way you spin those statistics, it looks as though we’ve got another 50 years to wait until men and women contribute equally to household chores!”

    In that you only presented the viewpoint of men still needing to step up to the plate for household chores, while conveniently leaving out what women need to do to make that happen. I was merely mirroring your one-sided presentation. It was intended to be one-sided, to demonstrate how an us/them of approach isn’t useful.

    Guess what – as Evan often repeats about relationships – you can’t change what men do – you can only change what you do.

    If you want men to do even more then you need to focus on what you can do to enable that. Starting with showing some consideration for where men are coming from – which in my experience many women are loath to do, preferring to hang onto a blaming/victim mindset.”

    “And, I’m hoping that you do know that feminists are vocal about how women are paid significantly less than men for the same work?”

    Of course I’m aware of them – I just don’t see what that has to do with your one-sided approach to household chores. So long as you continue to present this as “men still aren’t doing enough”, you’re contributing to an adversarial environment rather than promoting unity. It’s old, it’s tired, and just like relationships, you’re not going to enlist men’s empathy with that vinegar.

    And spare me your condescending argumentum ad verecundiam with your “right-Hegelian” nonsense (crap, I haven’t studied that for 25 years). Nice try at attempting to undercut my authority to comment on this subject, and simultaneously attempt to pigenhole me so you can make your following straw-man argument. This type of argumentation is really little different than ad-hominemn, as it attacks me, and not the merits of thesubject.

    Your true colors have just been shown – and they look the same as in comment #8.

  21. 51
    Ruby

    Anita #43
     
    Hilarious! Yeah, I caught that particular misunderstanding of your earlier post. But if they don’t understand, it must be your fault, not theirs! They are the only ones who get to condescend, and if you complain about it, you must be a “victim” gone off on a rant! Because they’re right, dammit!

  22. 52
    Ellejem

    Helen, I’ll be very sorry if you leave this blog permanently. You are one of the commenters whom I make sure to read – you seem to have been singled out in the last few weeks for personal attack, but I’ve been following this blog for years, and I’ve always found your comments to be particularly level-headed and thoughtful.

  23. 53
    Valery North

    @ JoeK #50:

    There’s one crucial flaw in your presentation of my position.

    Which is that my screen name isn’t “Valerie”, it’s “Valery”.

    Alright, that may be a little subtle.   Let me be clearer.   “Valerie” is a Western European girl’s name.   “Valery” is an Eastern European boy’s name.   “Valery”, therefore, is more likely to be a man.

    The point I, and Helen, and a few other commenters, have made is that there is a direct link between “men do more in the home” and “women do more paid labour” so from the perspective I take, “men do more at home” means the same as “women do more paid work”.   Trying to treat it as two separate things, an adversarial making of “demands” against one group or another, is your perspective, not mine.

    There’s no “argument from authority” in my comment (whereas your throwing around of Latin terms.   You drew an argument from historical narrative, so I referenced a great thinker, and his predecessor (Marx, and Hegel), who also viewed society by looking at the passage of history, and drew conclusions.   Far from attacking you, it was an attempt to find a non-adversarial ground to work from, by speaking in common terms and seeking understanding.   If you found me “condescending”, then it was only because your remarks have been consistently condescending from your earliest comments right up to this one.   I actually thought that your comment #36 was trying to raise the level to an academic and considered debate but apparently when I try to do the same, it is “condescending”.

    On that basis, I am withdrawing from this discussion.

    [PS Alright, I'm not actually Eastern European, I just like the name]

  24. 54
    Selena

    Michelle #29“I love getting some of you riled up, that usually happens when the truth hits home”
    Valerie North: “I find it also happens quite reliably when people present something as true that just isn’t, and that denies their existence or the validity of their experience.”
    Yeah. If someone presents an opinion that doesn’t ring true based on one’s own’s experience…  they find they can’t agree with it. Someone else’s truth is NOT hitting home.

  25. 55
    Anita

    Ruby@51: I know, they completely misunderstood my sarcasm, which I thought was pretty funny. And even the mocking rant to myself has all of those nofollow tags in them, which almost seems like commentary and kind of funny, too.
     
    Valery@53: I LOL’d at the not being Eastern European part. You think so much to come up with a good screen name and then someone botches it. :(

  26. 56
    Lia

    @ Hellen # 1
     
    First I want to apologize for my statement in # 38 it was rude and uncalled for.   
     
    Here’s what I would like to express:
     
    You wrote, “Even I, for all my bluntness I would feel shame admitting to a Pew researcher that I want to work full-time given that we have two children.”   How does wanting to work make you a bad mother, wife, or woman???  Hellen, that is your judgement of yourself, why should you be ashamed?  I don’t know where you got the idea that wanting to work was shameful, who planted that idea in your head… if your answer is “society” the dig deeper. 
     
    You wrote, “What was left out of the report and its analysis is that women feel real guilt about admitting that they want to work full time.”  What women?  All women???  Wouldn’t it be more accurate to write that YOU feel guilt about it?  I believe that there are some women who feel guilt about working, but as NONE of us personally know those who took the survey I feel that there is no way to know if that was a factor in ANY of the women surveyed so I don’t believe it can be accurately stated about all of them, most of them, or even some of them.  I know several women who feel guilty about being “just” a stay at home mom.  So guilt happens.
     
    You stated that “Many people who hear a woman admit that” (wanting to work rather than stay at home) “would think all sorts of evil things about her: she’s cold, she’s a bitch, she’s uncaring, what does she have children for, etc.”  Who thinks that?  Who has said that to you?  If this has been your experience than that is very sad.  If the people who treated you that way are “friends” I would rethink those friendships.  That has not been my experience with the people I know.  And if these are strangers who have said something to you tell them to bugger off, who cares what they think!!

  27. 57
    JustMe

    Lia @ 56.
     
    Helen was suggesting reasons why people might lie on these surveys.  I know a lot of women who feel guilty about  being working mom’s.  It’s great that you don’t know any but personally – every working mother I know (including me) has felt guilty about working.  Some work due to necessity, some work because they like working, some work because they earn more money.  Women feel guilty because they sometimes have to prioritize work over parent teacher conference, or PTA meetings, etc.  We feel guilty because other women tell us to get over ourselves and start putting our husbands and families first. 
     
    A friend of mine told me she is part of a group of women who meet and do crafts.  One of the women is in the process of adopting a baby.  When she expressed her desire to continue to work after the adoption, my friend told me that every woman in the group wondered why she was even having a child if she didn’t want to be at home with the child.  Interestingly, the adoptive mother’s take was she wanted to work so she could afford to provide the best for her child. 
     
    Helen’s comment was to offer reasons why the survey might be skewed and used herself as an example.  And got flayed.

  28. 58
    Lia

    Justme # 57

    You wrote, “Hellen’s comment was to offer reasons why the survey might be skewed and used herself as an example. And got flayed.” Not exactly accurate. She did not offer reasons why it MIGHT be skewed. She did not write, “ it is possible that some of these women could have lied…” what she wrote was, “ Evan, what was left out of the report and its analysis is that women feel real guilt about admitting that they want to work full time.” That is not offering a possibility that is a statement saying this is what was left out. Then she went on to state, “There’s a stigma associated with women preferring work to staying at home – a stigma that does not exist for men, because men have traditionally been full time workers.” I get that that is her view of how things are. The whole down trodden women trying to rise up against the system. There is stigma to working outside the home, there is stigma to being a stay at home mom. You can find reasons to feel like a victim on any subject if you really want to.

    In #17 She goes on about how Joan Feynman was brilliant and “repeatedly repressed” because she was a woman. And she goes on to write, “It makes me sad to think of the amazing female brainpower that has been squandered through centuries, if not millennia, of suppression.”… Alrighty then!

    The survey was showing that men are spending more time with their kids and helping out more at home. That’s cool, right? Apparently not, because we have not addressed all the ways in which women have been kept down for centuries, if not millennia.

    In # 27 Hellen calls insults Michelle by calling her immature. Because she feels Michelle insulted her on another thread and Hellen writes, “ A mature person does not insult others in this manner.

    So Hellen is not as much a victim in this as she or you would have us believe.

  29. 59
    Joe

    Hasn’t 99% of the “women don’t get paid as much as women for the same work” argument been sufficiently debunked by now?

  30. 60
    JustMe

    Hasn’t 99% of the “women don’t get paid as much as women for the same work” argument been sufficiently debunked by now?
    Yes, the myth that women don’t get paid as much as women has been debunked.
     
    Interestingly, you can find articles that support that women are paid less than men.  Also, having just finished a degree in Human Resources, I have had sociology, social studies, family studies and HR professors who have all said that women are in fact paid less than men for the same work – all other things being equal (education, experience, work hours, etc).  Some of them even claimed that gender discrimination was the 2nd most common form of discrimination in the country (race discrimination being first).  In 4 years of education, I have not had one professor in any class say that gender discrimination didn’t exist.  Of course, every one can still think it is all in our heads. 
     

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