Should I Keep Dating Him Even Though Religion Might Tear Us Apart?

Should I Keep Dating Him Even Though Religion Might Tear Us Apart?

Evan, I’m really enjoying your advice. I have what I think is an unusual situation. I’ve been dating a very religious Catholic man for more than a year; I am not Catholic. I am divorced, and he says that for him to consider marrying me, I need an annulment through the Catholic Church – a long (up to two-year), arduous process.

I love him, but the thought of waiting two more years to find out what will happen with us seems really stressful. We’re both in our 40s and frankly, I don’t feel like I have a lot of time to waste. He’s made it clear that if my annulment is denied, he’s breaking up with me. In addition, he hasn’t PROMISED me that we’ll get married if I get my annulment, but only says it’s probable. What to do?

We spend almost all our free time together, tell each other we love each other, attend each other’s family functions — everything is great. But the thought of binding myself to someone a little more and a little more each day only to face the possibility of being told “Sorry, we have to break up” is almost unfathomable. Help. –Lee

I completely agree with you, Lee.

And without going on an anti-religious screed, all I can say is that this is where religious dogmatists lose me – putting centuries-old Church edicts over the practicalities of modern life.

Are you willing to marry a man who puts the needs of his church ahead of the needs of his wife?

Essentially, your boyfriend is telling you that the Catholic Church’s opinion and approval of your marriage is more important than your own individual needs.

That is completely in line with the teachings of the church and he is being completely consistent with his faith. You can’t fault him in that regard.

But you do have a very serious choice to make, at this point in time.

Are you willing to marry a man who puts the needs of his church ahead of the needs of his wife?

Moreover, are you willing to take a chance that a man who doesn’t exercise free will over his own choices in life is going to be a good husband and father? As you said yourself; if, for whatever reason, the church denies your annulment, he’s breaking up with you. And it’s not even a guarantee that you’ll be married (much less happily married) if the annulment comes through.

Are you willing to take a chance that a man who doesn’t exercise free will over his own choices in life is going to be a good husband and father?

I’m generally not one to give out validation in this space, but I’m highly sympathetic to the way you’re feeling.

One of the things that makes my life so charmed is the ability that I have to exercise control over it. I’m my own boss, offering my own opinion to women who seem to value it. I have a very accepting wife. And when someone else tries to exert her will in such a way that’s uncomfortable to me (my Mom or my wife’s Mom, for example), I maintain the right act in a way that works for my nuclear family.

This is a choice I made: to not prostrate myself to others’ dictates.

You’ve chosen a boyfriend who has already picked sides.

Compromising with you for your happiness is out of the question.

If your relationship will work, it’s going to be about you, compromising for the sake of the Catholic Church.

Personally, that wouldn’t work for me.

And, from the tone of your note, I’m guessing it doesn’t really work for you either. As tough as it is, religion is one of those issues that will impact the rest of your life. If you can’t find a path to meet halfway, I would highly suggest you find yourself a new partner who will.

Just have faith. With no disrespect to your boyfriend, there are MILLIONS of men out there who can make you happy, and will put your needs above the church’s policies.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Michelle

    When dating, I’m very congnizant of having no control over another human being, I have no power to change them.  One of the things I look for in regard to compatability is lifestyle, most importantly, deeply rooted lifestyle factors.  His religious lifestyle/values is just an example…this man could easily have another ‘deal breaker’ not religion related (hey, at least he told you what his deal breaker was ahead of time!).  In other words, look bigger picture and decide if this lifestyle is one that you can live with long term.

  2. 2
    eve

    Evan, you are right on when it comes to the advise you gave this women about her boyfriend problem. Been there already. Believe him when he says he will walk because of religion. You are right when you say there are plenty of men out there who can make her happy.

  3. 3
    Jackie Holness

    As a devout Christian myself, I have dated Christians who were not as committed as I am – essentially for the experience…but I had time to spare in my opinion…if you don’t feel like you have the time, you just have to chalk it up to incompatibility…hard to tear yourself away from someone when you’re digging them, but better now, than later…just my two cents…

  4. 4
    Some other Steve

    To him, this is a matter of personal salvation, and you cannot compete with that.
    You’re getting a preview of coming attractions: the firmness of his conviction here will manifest itself in enough other ways that you’re going to feel absolutely trapped and terribly resentful. Resentment (and its cousin “contempt”) are corrosive to a relationship in way that’s almost impossible to repair.
    Sadly, all you can do is walk away.

  5. 5
    marymary

    if he was really committed to his religious beliefs he wouldn’t be stringing you along. Why is he even dating someone outside his religion if it,s that important to him?  He isn’t committing to you and has merely come up with a better” excuse than usual. 
    There,s always something with these guys/girls who cant commit to being with you or without you – the ex, the distance, the kids, finances, religion, the dog, the cat. deal with one issue and a new one magically appears. Cut him loose.
    i am Christian and seeing a fellow Christian so it,s not that i,m anti religious.

  6. 6
    L

    This guy is not interested in marrying her – period. He told her so. He said, oh, if the annulment does not go through, we can’t get married. He seems in no rush to find out either way, and has an out if it is not granted. Which BTW, seems unlikely to not be granted if she is sincere and really wants to put her previous marriage behind her and marry this man. However, like I said, he is not interested in marrying her. He is dating someone, where he does not know if they will be married or not? Only guys who don’t want someone do that; he is however sticking around? For what? Lose him.

  7. 7
    julie

    The annulment costs a lot of money too, is he paying for that? I would move on also unless he changes his level of commitment. There should be no conditions for spending a lifetime with someone.

  8. 8
    Some other Steve

    This also brings to mind the pick-and-choose nature of many in his position.
     
    Marrying outside the church (which he’d be doing if she did not receive an annulment) is a public act that is highly visible to family and friends, while having sex outside of marriage is a private act that mom and dad can pretend to be ignorant of.
     
    The Church considers both sinful – pretty much the same sin, actually – but I bet a dollar and a donut that our hero is not being entirely consistent in what matters to him.

  9. 9
    Jennifer

    He has told you that with one word from the church, he will walk away from you without a backwards glance. Maybe you don’t believe he’d really follow through with that, but what does it say about his feelings for you that he would even make that claim?
    Asking you to wait for two years and change your religion for a ‘maybe’ is a lot. A whole lot.
    Also, are the two of you abstinent? Does he masturbate? I’d be hesitant to hitch my wagon to a man that only followed the tenants of his religion that were convenient for him, while sticking adamantly to the ones that were no problem to him but a big inconvenience for me.
    Im sorry to say that I agree with others who say that he just doesn’t want to get married. If it weren’t the annulment and conversion thing it would be ( and likely will be) something else.
    Best of luck to you.

  10. 10
    Henriette

    Well, I’m glad this guy isn’t pretending – to you or to himself – that his religious beliefs aren’t important to him.  He knows himself and what he can and can’t accept.  Now it’s time for you to figure out your bottom line, too.
     
    You’re both in your 40s and you indicate that you feel you “don’t have a lot of time to waste.”  I’m not sure if this comment indicates that you’re hoping to have biological children but if so, remember that a. annulments can proceed quickly or slowly and some of that variation simply depends on matters like whether you live in an area where many other couples are trying to get annulments; how helpful your ex is in the process; if you’re a Kennedy/Agnelli/ somehow very well-connected and/or wealthy; etc.  So, even if you’re only 40 now, you could easily be 44 by the time this process is completed and (I can only speak for myself) I would probably be seething with resentment at any guy who’d insisted that i go through such a lengthy, unpleasant process to keep HIS church happy. b. Staunch Catholics don’t approve of many reproductive technologies so should you wish to become pregnant and should you require, say, IVF to do so, he might well nix that, too. 
     
    I can’t tell you what compromises you should or should not make, I just think you’re smart to ponder these questions now instead of brushing them under the rug because you love your boyfriend.

  11. 11
    jules

    Adding on to what Jennifer wrote in terms of picking and choosing which tenants you follow… do you want to have kids in your 40’s, at least two years from  now?  How many?  If the answers aren’t “yes” and “as many as God will give us” then I’d be really curious to know if your bf will “allow” birth control.  If he’s OK with it, then clearly he’s picking and choosing for convenience, and if he truly cared about you he’d “choose” to ignore the annulment thing.  I would be walking away.

  12. 12
    Cath

    I think we need more information. Is the guy in question single, never married and in his 40s. If so, I would question whether he really wanted to get married at all. Perhaps he is using your need for an annulment as an excuse to put a brake on the relationship.
    If he is having sex with you he is not supposed to be doing that as he is  not married to you.Therefore you should question whether he is genuinely interested in you when he pulls the ÿou’ve got to get an annulment card.
    I do not have problem with him requesting you try to get an annulment as Catholic Church teaches that marriage is indissoluble. When people say “” till death do us part”” they are supposed to mean it. Marriage breakdown has many undesirable consequences and can devastate the children involved so frankly in some ways I appreciate the Catholic Church’s hardline on marriage.
    The annulment process is supposed to discern whether you  had a valid , sacramental marriage; if so no annulment is granted and you are not eligible to marry in the Catholic Church.

  13. 13
    Cath

    ps. I would not say the annulment process is particularly arduous. You will fill in a questionnaire about your marriage, nominate witnesses you knew you before and at the time of your marriage ( who will be interviewed). You are interviewed yourself once / twice and that is it. If you are not prepared to go through that process how keen are you really on the dude?
    He has known you a year and given that Evan is always saying people should date for at least 2 years before marrying, it may be fair enough that he is not 100% promising he will marry you.

  14. 14
    SalsaQ

    One line in the OP letter off the main topic was a red flag to me.
    We spend almost all our free time together
    That worries me.  If you are both parents with full lives already and spend most of your precious child free time developing your relationship, this is less of a concern, but if you have no children, and after the first heady rush of the relationship, nearly your entire lives outside of work are each other, your relationship will wither under the pressure.

  15. 15
    Nicole

    I think this guy is a bad bet b/c I think that even if he needed her to get an annulment before he’d marry her, I don’t see how he’s not even proposed yet. I thought most people who needed you to somehow convert to their faith would usually see if you were open to it and hold off on the wedding until the process was complete, but not say, well, you have to do it and then I’ll see if  I still feel the same way.  That sounds awful.  
    How is this any different from any other condition that you might impose on a mate?  I mean, you have to think about what it really says if someone thinks you are good enough to date but not good enough to marry unless you do X, Y, or Z.
    He wants you to jump through a hoop just to give himself the OPTION of someday proposing to you.  I’m not sure how you feel about your ex-husband but I always thought that part an annulment involved somehow suggesting some part of your relationship was fraudulent or that you weren’t necessarily in your ‘right mind’ when you got married.
    I mean, if your boyfriend said he couldn’t marry you b/c you weren’t educated enough or didn’t make enough money, and that you needed to fix that before he’d even consider marrying you, would you feel the same way? I realize that religion is important to many people, but the fact that it is an important part of who he is doesn’t give him the right to hold you hostage b/c you don’t measure up.  
    I think you are a placeholder and that he should look for his next girlfriend on a Catholic dating site.
    A person might start off the search for a mate with a certain set of requirements but I’ve seen many people realize that their strict lists were going to result in them being alone forever.  
    And add me to the list of skeptics when it comes to strict Catholics (and other very religious) people picking and choosing which tenets of their faith to adhere to.  
    I’m not an atheist but I’d have no problem dealing with someone of another faith provided that I didn’t have to follow the rules of a religion that I didn’t believe in.  I think that if you date another Catholic, you need to find one like that.

  16. 16
    LC

    Ditch him.  It’s just unbelievable how these men will waste your precious reproductive years telling you whatever BS they’ve made up in their minds to rationalize them not marrying you.  He doesn’t want to marry her, but he wants to keep her around as long as he gets free sex.  Such a religious guy!  It’s all just a game for him.  Men wouldn’t act like this if their balls fell off at 40, and they had to face never having the ability to have a child of their own.  Such cruelty and selfishness.  But then, women believe them!  We are all so delusional.

  17. 17
    Ruby

    Something seems hypocritical about the Lee’s boyfriend. If he is such a staunch Catholic that his beliefs may force him to dump her, why isn’t he out there searching for someone who believes as he does? If he’s having sex with Lee, does he himself not consider her truly “divorced”? If he’s that lackadaisical about the outcome of their relationship, how strongly does he want to be married? Whether Lee’s fear has to do with her ticking biological clock, or her concerns about finding a healthy relationship as an older single woman, either one is a legitimate excuse to walk away. She also needs to consider what being married to someone so attached to religious dogma would be like.
     
    I also think that there is a difference in waiting a couple of years to marry (and I still believe that not every couple needs that time frame, especially a couple in their 40s) when there are no obvious obstacles, and a situation like this one, with such an obvious incompatibility in values and beliefs.

  18. 18
    drea916

    Evan- shame on you for not doing a little research and being a little more open minded. You have readers of all stripes and we would appreciate a little more respect. Not that I expect for you to become Catholic, but you’re coming off as an ass. If this situation involved a muslim or a jew would you be such a jerk? Probably not.
    The reason the Catholic Church has all of these “hoops” is that Jesus taught that to marry and divorce and to marry again is to commit adultry.  The guy values his own salvation over pleasing his girlfriend. Most Catholics (like myself) who hold this belief won’t even date someone who doesn’t have a decree of nullity because they don’t want to be in this very situation. Marriage is for life and she is still married to her other husband, unless it can be shown that it was invalid. She’s a married woman and he should not have even started dating her.
    She should not stay with him because there will be many more “problems”. For example, is she still able to have children? Is she prepared to practice fertility awareness to space her children? We also believe in natural law (see: Aquinas) Or, maybe she should be a little more open minded and find out all the reasons behind all of the “hoops” Many people have been surprised at the why’s behind it all.
    Be as open minded as your bumper stickers claim you are!

  19. 19
    Koren

    I was raised catholic, my entire family is catholic.  I left a long time ago. So many man made rules.  First thing that comes to my mind is if annulling your marriage and having the Church approve it is so important to him, is he not using birth control and not having sex out of wedlock?  Because if you are having sex, and I’m assuming you are, he’s doing it with a married woman.  Dump him now, he told you what his priorities are.  Believe him.

  20. 20
    Cath

    People here don’t understand what an annulment is. He is not asking her to convert to his faith. He is asking her to get her former marriage annulled-ie declared void.

  21. 21
    Nicole

    @Cath, I think we do all understand what an annulment is…I just mentioned conversion b/c like the annulment it is a process that takes a while and it isn’t unreasonable to think that a man who needs his divorced girlfriend needs to get her marriage annulled might also need to become a Catholic.  And she’s being asked to do something that doesn’t line up with HER beliefs at all.  Just so he can consider possibly one day marrying her (which I doubt he will).  
    To be clear, he’s asking her to do something that could take a while without any guarantees, and it is kind of a big deal.  She hasn’t mentioned kids but I think even for a non-Catholic, declaring your previous marriage null and void might be a big deal if you have kids.  I’m pretty sure the Kennedys helped bring the issue of annulment front and center, both when Joe Kennedy II had his first marriage annulled (but it was later reversed b/c it was BS) and also when Teddy Kennedy was able to have his 2nd marriage in a church (which kind of showed that status, power, and money can help people get annulments for less than valid reasons).  
    At any rate, my point is that I’ve seen couples where one person’s religion stipulated something, be it conversion or annulment or something else that did require an investment of time, however, with the couples that I knew who really wanted to get married to each other and knew it, it was clear that once the hurdle was crossed (and none of this stuff is done quickly) the marriage was going to happen, and the engagement sometimes preceded that.

  22. 22
    starthrower68

    @ Drea #19,
    It’s not quite fair to slam EMK as he has been pretty clear on this blog that he is an atheist.  I’m not intending to insult EMK with that comment, but merely to point out that it’s not likely he will be very sympathetic to the OP’s bf.  However I will pray the eyes of his understanding are opened ;oD
    It is also not entirely fair to portray the BF as some mindless drone who blindly follows the church’s doctrine, however.  Not to start a discussion on faith, but God does give us free will.  But I digress.  The Bible is clear about not being “unequally yoked” with a non-believer or someone who does not share matters of faith with a potential partner.  Not because God hates non-believers but because these are the sort of issues that can arise.   Now, it’s true that EMK and his wife have a successful marriage even though there is that difference.  That is because they respect each others’ views on faith and what that entails.  They follow the dictates of their conscience and that’s not for me or anyone but God to judge.  The Bible is also clear that if a believer marries a non-believer, then that’s not a free ticket to leave the marriage.
    It is a good point that if the OP’s bf is having sex with her, that comes across as hypocritical.  One of the problems I have had with the institutional church is, they look down on co-habitation before marriage, but will annul a marriage if you can come up with the cash.  No offense intended to rank-and-file Catholics, but an example of policy and procedure that caused me to leave the church.  Well I jumped out of the frying pan into the fire and became a born-again Christian.  Try dating in this culture with that.  It’s extremely difficult because I am in the world, but not of it and the world is full of temptation and the message to compromise, compromise, compromise.  I can’t do it and am well aware I could live out the rest of my days as a single person.  But there is a price to pay for taking a stand against what is popular and acceptable in the world.
    One last bit of insight: while dating’s purpose is not to get married – although that certainly can be an outcome of a successful dating relationship – we just don’t seem to date with intention.  We just kind of jump in, hoping it will work out and are then heartbroken when it doesn’t and we can’t understand why.  Seems to me we need to be more purposeful in our approach.   

  23. 23
    Henriette

    A very Catholic friend asked her very Catholic boyfriend to annul his marriage to his ex-wife and it was indeed a most arduous process.   His argument hinged on the fact that since his ex-wife had suffered from depression, she had not been capable of making a sound decision about entering into the marriage due to this “mental illness.”  Because depression blocked her from being able to make good decisions,  the marriage had never been valid. 
    The ex-wife balked (imagine that!)  She argued that even with depression, a woman can thoughtfully enter into a marriage.   And even though their marriage eventually disintegrated, it lasted more than a decade and to her had been very real.   The process dragged on and on.  My friend gave up waiting and found another staunch Catholic (who’d never been married) to wed; they are very happy.
     
    My concern regarding the issue at hand is less about the rightness of the annulment process than it is about the fact that it can take years/is not always as straight-forward as one might wish and that it shows a devotion on the guy’s part to values that the poster does not share. 

  24. 24
    marymary

    starthrower
    I’m of the same beliefs as you and thought I would be single for the rest of my life too.  I met my boyfriend at a bible study.  We are dating with the intention of marrying, should that be a wise decision.   We cleared that up within a couple of months.  it’s not the way of the world but we share the same values so it is not a source of friction (unlike for the OP). 
    I’m not saying that you WILL meet someone, but I wouldn’t discount it just yet!  Go to conferences where lots of churches get together if everyone at your church is spoken for.  it’s not the case that God will drop a man right in front of you anymore than he will drop a job in front of you, it’s okay to do things to make it happen.   I do think that christian men can be a bit clueless when it comes to dating so don’t expect to be chased and seduced in expert fashion. And even if he/she is a christian don’t automatically expect it to work out or that they will behave well. But we do manage to get together all the time. 
    In the City of London there are lots of churches that hold lunchtime services as they don’t have a Sunday congregation.  Lots of men go .  I don’t know if there is similar where you work.
    Incidentally I know a number of pastors who will marry the divorced, so that widens your pool depending on what you personally believe.

  25. 25
    Evan Marc Katz

    @drea916 – Always charming when someone choose to insult me instead of merely disagreeing with my argument. I usually edit those out. I kept your insult in to show readers what you’re made of. Stay classy.

    As for my brief rebuttal:

    You can be sure that if it were any other religion, I’d have the exact same response. My responsibility is to the OP, her emotional needs, reality and fairness. The Catholic boyfriend is failing all tests.

    I certainly don’t need to do research on Catholic dogma to tell her what to do.

  26. 26
    Aisling

    Lee,
    As a recovering Catholic who has dated at least one man like your boyfriend, I can only say:  RUN!!! Especially if he is in his 40s and never married.  There is a reason.  These guys are typically confused about sex and have a madonna-whore complex. I know a number of them.  In their 50s, not married, still no girlfriends.
    Lee, we are *all* getting older.  We all only have so much time.  But if you marry this clown, I assure you that you will be relegated to a life of misery. Just reading about this jerk gives me the creeps. Don’t give up.  There is a better match for you,  and you won’t have to sell your soul.
    Disclaimer:  I am not referring to *all* never-married men in their 40s. Just the guys who probably should have been priests, but can’t give up the sex.

  27. 27
    Angela

    Alright, alright, alright… There’s a whole lot of bad information floating around on here right now and I do think people are being a bit harsh and quick to judge the relationship NEEDS of this woman’s boyfriend.  I am a Catholic convert that has grown to love the Church very deeply.  I believe in it’s teachings; I am also a sinner and do not follow them perfectly.  In my eyes it doesn’t make the teaching wrong, it makes me human.  
    I have just gone thru the annulment process and it took just under a year and cost me $500, which the parish would have subsidized if I’d needed.  It’s not long, it’s not overly expensive.  Certainly, if a year and $500 kept my partner from wanting to spend the rest of our lives together… I’d have a problem with that.
     
    When I first divorced, I did try to date other Catholics.  I have not found my match there and did decide to date outside my faith.  I’ve met a wonderful Lutheran man who I could see myself married to someday.  We have sex.  Yes, I think it’s a sin.  I choose to not receive communion currently because of this choice.  But receiving communion is a major, major part of the Catholic faith and experience.  If we marry outside of the rules of the church, we can not ever receive communion again.  For that reason, if I were to marry my wonderful Lutheran man I would ask him to get an annulment and to have our marriage blessed by a priest.  It IS important to me to be able to experience all of my Catholic faith again in time.  If that makes me a hypocrite then…. ok, I accept that.  It’s still how I feel.  I’m trusting that God knows my desires and that if He brings me a wonderful Lutheran husband then He also understands the struggles we will face aligning the two religions and will help us thru it.  
     
    And before anyone asks- no, I will not convert because I’m raising my children Catholic.  And I choose to be Catholic myself.  I believe in the faith.  
     
    Catholics are not the only religion who have rules and traditions for matrimony.  It is my opinion, that if the OP loves this man and wants to be married to him from 40-whatever until death… giving him a little extra effort and maybe a few extra months really *shouldn’t* be a dealbreaker.  If it is, then she probably isn’t ready for the plethora of concessions that come with being married anyway.
     
    Any relationship requires a certain leap of faith.  If the guy is asking you to get an annulment then… HELLO!  He’s thinkin’ marriage!  Get the annulment!
     
    Love your writing Evan!

  28. 28
    Jen

    The advice here makes sense on the surface, and I agree as a fellow atheist, that religious dogma should not get in the way of free will and modern life.  However, is it not the case that if you believe in a system of thought and a way of life, you should actually follow what you believe, to have integrity to your beliefs?
     
    This is why I would have trouble in a relationship with a (so-called) believer.  Either he constantly breaks his own rules, or he holds to a system that makes no earthly sense and makes a true romantic relationship impossible.  If you just pick and choose what parts to adhere to according to convenience, you really are just performing an act of social conformity in some issues, and being true to your actual nature in other issues – for which you are encouraged to feel guilt.  I would find that hard to tolerate in myself or a partner.
     
    Whether or not he is sincere in his beliefs, Lee you have excellent cause to RUN.

  29. 29
    Aisling

    @ Angela # 27:  I am not questioning your beliefs.  You are missing the entire point.  Lee’s boyfriend sounds like a hypocrite at best and a jerk at most.  He is obviously playing games with her, and sounds to me like  someone who is avoiding commitment.  That has nothing to do with religion.
    I have found converts to be the most vociferous.  My advice to this girl stands.  Run.  I have a bit more experience with the Catholic faith than you do, no offense. If you have no problems with creepy old men in skirts making your life’s choices, more power to you.

    oh, and Angela…..I don’t think this guy wants to marry the OP. Hello to you!

  30. 30
    zann

    Call it what you want, but a rigid, inflexible mindset does not make for a healthy intimate relationship between two people. He can have his religious beliefs and hold fast to them, but he wants more than that. He wants her to prove herself worthy in the eyes of his church before deciding whether she’s worthy of a marriage commitment. Personally, I’d prefer to be deemed worthy just for being myself. Dump. Him.

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