Men and Women Tend to Marry Within Their Class

Men and Women Tend to Marry Within Their Class

You’ve read the back and forth comments on this blog. Women want to marry men with equal education and money. Men complain that women are “hypergamous,” and trying to marry “up.” What’s really happening is what is known as assortative mating. Per the New York Times:

“Assortative mating is the idea that people marry people like themselves, with similar education and earnings potential and the values and lifestyle that come with them.”

This makes sense. Studies on Tinder show that people aren’t, for the most part, racist, but rather, classist. Educated urban women – in general – would sooner go for a black man in a suit than a white man with a camouflage hat and rifle. This is reflective of the overall change in modern relationships.

Educated urban women – in general – would sooner go for a black man in a suit than a white man with a camouflage hat and rifle.


“The nature of marriage itself is changing. It used to be about the division of labor: Men sought homemakers, and women sought breadwinners. But as women’s roles changed, marriage became more about companionship, according to research by two University of Michigan economists, Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers (who also contributes to The Upshot). Now, people marry others they enjoy spending time with, and that tends to be people like themselves.”

“Husbands and wives had different roles in different spheres, so that was the opposites-attract view of marriage,” Mr. Wolfers said. “Today you want people with shared passions, similar interests to you, similar career goals, similar goals for the kids.”

The issue with this is that it can become a bit of a trap. In a world where women are more educated and increasingly likely to earn more money than their spouses, it’s impossible to always date “up.”

And yet when women try to date less educated and wealthy men, it can create a challenging dynamic:

“When these couples struggle, it is often over issues like sexual desire or the division of housework and child care, Dr. Doherty said, particularly if the woman loses respect for the man and the man feels insecure about his role in the family.”

As I’ve pointed out here repeatedly, it is a combination of BOTH that causes friction in relationships – not merely men’s insecurity about falling short of the old school protector/provider role, but the woman’s propensity to look down on him for this as well.

Thankfully, the new generation seems to have a better concept of equality – and are more likely to believe in egalitarian marriage.

When there are no traditional gender roles, things can get a bit…confusing.

Yet that dynamic seems to be changing, he and other researchers said, because young people have more egalitarian views about marriage and the division of labor. But, of course, this brings about another unintended consequence:

When there are no traditional gender roles, things can get a bit…confusing. Some may say they like it more, but many of my clients miss the days when men wanted to be providers, prioritized chivalry, courted regularly, and were aggressively clear with their motives. In the new world where men and women are more similar than ever, you end up with a lot of passive “Netflix and chill” guys who are perfectly content with their women taking control (and then resenting the women who do so).

Anyway, Great article by the New York Times about the state of relationships today. I don’t know that I have any answers, just the observation that, no matter whether you marry up or down, you’re just taking on a different set of complications in your life.

Your thoughts, below, are always appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Stacy

    Well  maybe I can only speak for myself here but I prefer to date men in my INTELLECTUAL class.  I am currently in a relationship but I would have dated a teacher or anyone else who I knew doesn’t make a lot of money if he can stimulate me mentally and had similar interests in that regard. If he makes above average money (I think I make average money) and we can’t talk about much, then I won’t be able to do it. I also think that we also like people who match our physical attractiveness as well and tend to see that as a class in itself.

    1. 1.1
      KK

      In my experience, intellectual does not always equate to highly educated. I’ve known many college dropouts that were more well read, more interesting, and intellectually superior to their MBA and PHD peers.

      1. 1.1.1
        Christine

        That’s very true.  I can think of one particular former colleague of mine who was a college dropout, but who always left me in awe of his brilliance.

        In fact, sometimes people like that are more interesting because they think “outside the box” more.  I think this colleague of mine dropped out not because he wasn’t smart enough to understand what was being taught–but because he didn’t like having to parrot back certain things to the professors on exams to get good grades (he’s more the type who’d be challenging and questioning the professors’ teachings).

         

      2. 1.1.2
        Stacy

        Oh, I absolutely agree with you KK. In fact, I have met quite a few men who had lots of book sense and no common sense whatsoever. I have never filtered a man based on his education.

  2. 2
    Christine

    Thanks for sharing Evan.  Well, the person I’m with now does look like my male mirror image on “paper” in terms of education and salary (we even went to the same alma mater, albeit in different years).

    Who knows, maybe that’s part of why we feel so comfortable with each other.  However, I’m not sure that’s the only reason either.  We both dated other people before who were just as impressive (or sometimes, more so) on “paper”–yet had terrible personality clashes with them and obviously aren’t with them now (and we thank our lucky stars we dodged those bullets and are with each other instead!)

    On the other hand, I also know couples where one is vastly more educated and successful than the other–but have been married happily for years.  So I’m not sure if there’s one universal, winning formula that guarantees success.  Similar educational and professional levels might be nice, but I’m not sure that they’re enough by themselves either.

     

  3. 3
    CaliforniaGirl

    When I was 20 and got into a prestigious university, I broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years because he didn’t even have a high school  diploma and didn’t have any future plans. He took it very hard and we cut all contact. Last year I met him at our 20 year high school reunion. The guy made a crazy career – finished high school, bachelor and master degrees, makes a lot of money and even volunteers at his daughter’s school to help children with mathematics. I was very surprised when he told me that he owes all that to me as he made himself a promise to succeed in life because I dumped him.  The thing is he never was with educated and high earning  woman since then, his ex-wife was a receptionist, his girlfriend after divorce worked in a nail salon and he complained to me that they all felt very comfortable spending his money without contributing much to the household including cleaning, cooking and other things. We went out and I invited him for drinks and he said that none of his ex girlfriends ever offered to pay and it felt very good when I did. Now, he says, he will only date a woman with similar earnings and education because he wants an equal partner and he gets why I dumped him 20 years ago.

    1. 3.1
      Christine

      I’m sorry your ex went through that and can see why he’d have those preferences, after the experiences he went through.  I definitely understand him wanting a partner who will reciprocate and do her fair share.  I don’t think it’s fair to expect one person to carry all of the responsibilities of the household all alone–I think it should be a team effort.

      However, earnings and education may or may not be the best proxy for that.  My guy’s ex had the same earnings and education level as him.  Yet she expected that when they got married, she’d stop working (and that he’d not only provide for the household but also indulge her luxurious, high-end lifestyle).  I also know a number of other highly educated and professional women who stopped working once they married.  So if I were him, I would just get really clear on what their expectations are, and not necessarily assume that they’ll pitch in just because of their earnings and education levels.  Just a thought.

       

      1. 3.1.1
        CaliforniaGirl

        Of course, I have girlfriends with great education and before they had kids, they had good paying jobs, but now they are stay at home moms. Their husbands are not happy, that’s I can tell for sure, living in a big metro area on one income is not easy and very stressful.

        My last boyfriend had no education and even couldn’t write or read  in English properly (not his first language) and I had to help him with everything and it really pissed me off. He had no idea about major historical events or never heard about musicians or famous artists and I am talking about Picasso, for instance. I lost all respect for him and will never ever date anyone who doesn’t know who Picasso is 🙂 I kinda understand that it’s not his fault, he was raised by uneducated single mother with three children, who never was home and I was a single child in a very educated family and was taken to various museums, plays, opera and what not as a child. My grandparents had a huge library and I think I read most books from it.

        I also just broke up with a guy I went out for two months because he never went to college and owns a diner. A cheap diner in a bad neighborhood in LA. I need a man that does something that I can admire him for and this guy was far from that.

        1. KK

          Interesting comments, California girl. Why do you think you’ve had so much trouble finding “your intellectual equal” if that is really important to you?

        2. Christine

          I can understand where you and your ex are coming from and the real, underlying concern there.  I just can’t agree with that approach to relationships, where one person just takes, takes, takes from the other.  To me, it’s a two way street where both people act like a team, and give and take to one another.  Not to say that they should have some scoresheet, but I think the giving and taking should take place on both sides.

          Wow I’m sorry you went through that too!  Regardless of what credentials someone has (or doesn’t), it absolutely has to be someone who you can respect and has the same values/goals as you (which it sounds like you didn’t have with those guys)

           

           

        3. CaliforniaGirl

          @KK,

          I did not have trouble to find my “intellectual equal”, I just thought it doesn’t matter if he is affectionate and a good partner but it didn’t work. The lifestyle we were having didn’t make me happy and I couldn’t rely on him in anything – I had to solve all the problems myself and I just got tired and resentful. My friends and family all said that he is not on my level and treated him as my temporary fling and he felt it and tried too hard to please them and it just felt desperate…

    2. 3.2
      Receptionist

      What exactly is wrong with being a receptionist? A number of us do have university degrees. We just happen to like the work! Sounds to me like you’re just a snob!

    3. 3.3
      Receptionist

      People need to stop judging others by their job title. You’re marrying a person, not an occupation!

  4. 4
    MilkyMae

    Some people think that excluding someone because of their education or occupation is shallow.  It may be shallow but I think the real danger is that you end up with someone how looks and behaves like “upper” class they are really “lower” class.  I know suit wearing men who don’t have pot to piss in. I know an educated 40 y/o lifeguard.   Assertive, alpha types with deep voices can be ne’er do wells.  If equivilent class is something you want, due diligence is required.

  5. 5
    Stacy2

    If i am looking for a partner in life, I need someone who can actually be my partner, who can contribute equally to, say, buying a house in an affluent area or footing a private school tuition or things like that. And a guy who makes substantially lesscan hardly be such a person. I suppose for a trust fund babie or someone who is rich so that money is not an object that wouldn’t matter, such a woman could marry any guy and not care. But for those of us who make a living in crazy expensive urban areas, a matching second income is a must or the lifestyle goes way down. I blame this state of affairs on the government.

    1. 5.1
      Maggie

      To Stacy2,

      Wow, I am just really curious how “the government” is responsible.  I mean, is “the government” supposed to send you a supply of educated, high-income potential husbands?  Is “the government” supposed to subsidize your crazy expensive urban lifestyle?   It`s totally understandable you want a man of a certain caliber, but some women need to get over themselves a little .  And no, I don`t mean settling for the handyman or retail clerk.  But either live more modestly or move if you can`t afford it.

      1. 5.1.1
        Things that make you go hmmmm

        I believe what she meant was that because the average household is taxed at a rate 5 times what it was two generations ago and the cost of living hasn’t near kept pace with salaries, it’s pretty much impossible in many parts of country to do better than broke on one income. I think it’s safe to say the gov had a little something to do with that reality. Don’t know where you live but for example in NYC, the average rent is $3,600. And that ain’t a penthouse overlooking Central Park.

        I read an interesting t study the other day that compred what men and women said they looked for in a spouse in 1939 versus today. It’s counterintuitive but women today place even higher weight on a man with high earning potential than women in 1939 did.

        My take is its twofold. In 1939 people Married young with the expectation they would build a life together. Today people marry later and as such expect a potential spouse to already be established. Also I believe the cost of living factors in. Women today know they will likely want or need to be the one who steps off the career track to have kids and they want a spouse who’s earning potential doesn’t make having kids a burden. MHO

      2. 5.1.2
        Stacy2

        Believe me you don’t want to get me started on the government especially around this time. Over half of all properties in my city are sold to foreign, mostly chinese buyers that are using our land/real estate as their checking accounts and as a way to get green cards and as a result normal families who live and work here are priced out. I am in the top 3pc of earners in my city and I can barely afford to live here. And the government has done nothing to stop this ridiculous propert bubble. Every proposal on the state level that was aimed at curbing this situation was shut down by real estate developers lobby, etc. That’s just one thing. I’ve got others but I really don’t think this is the forum for a discussion on macro economic policy.

        And no, I am not going to move to a blue collar neighborhood (gentrifying those people out of their homes) no thank you, I would rather find an equal partner.

    2. 5.2
      MikeTO

      Equally my butt. Most women want men to court them. Paying for dates. Paying for the engagement ring and even buying a house.Heck many women want men to pay for a expensive vaction. And that’s why many men will run the other way when a woman states she lives to travel in her profile.

      Hey at least Asian women are more upfront unlike the American women who spews bs all the time.

      1. 5.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        From this “6 men you should never date video”:

        1) Irresponsible type

        2) The Bitter type

        3) No Other Options type

        4) The One with No <good relationships with> Friends or Family

        5) Guys with No Confidence

        6) No Moral Standards type

        For some reason, I thought of you and McLovin when I watched this video.

        For most MGTOWs, it’s probably a chicken-or-the-egg thing between #2 and #3. They became #2 because of #3; or they became #3 because of #2.

        From what McLovin has let slip, he’s a #6 because he’s #2.

        Enjoy. I really like Chaz’ videos. Very down to earth insights and advice.

         

        1. MikeTO

          1) Irresponsible type

          2) The Bitter type

          3) No Other Options type

          4) The One with No Friends or Family

          5) Guys with No Confidence

          6) No Moral Standards type

          For some reason, I thought of you and McLovin when I watched this video.

          For most MGTOWs, it’s probably a chicken-or-the-egg thing between #2 and #3. They became #2 because of #3; or they became #3 because of #2.

          From what McLovin has let slip, he’s a #6 because he’s #2.

          Enjoy. I really like Chaz’ videos. Very down to earth insights and advice.

          So I don’t have options or I’m bitter? LOL You can guess. To be frank I’m not interested in women because women don’t interest me. I prefer people who can think critically. KK is probably the only female rational female and one that can think critically.

          You can’t expect equality then be treated like a snow flake. You pick one or the other. You are upset that men are holding higher standards.

          Shaming won’t work with me. 😛

        2. Serious question

          MikeTO

          please explain to me why a MGTOW who doesn’t like or want women spends his time commenting on a women’s blog about dating?

      2. 5.2.2
        Serious question

        MikeTO

        “KK is probably the only female rational female and one that can think critically.”

        Really Mike? Even though she says you should buy her a big engagement ring simply because she’s female and you’re male, because it’s tradition? (not on this thread, on another one) You just got done complaining about women who want men to court and pay for dates…??? But it’s ok in her case because she happens to have conservative views?

        Your comment supports what I and many others have long known. It’s the traditionalists that are keeping the manosphere alive.

        The MRA is not about solving the problems men face or eliminating the laws that harm men. It’s about returning to the mythical good old days when women had little power, and a guy like you was able to get women by default because so many of them had limited options.

         

        1. KK

          Woah there, SQ…. KK here. Please do not misquote me. What you claim I said is false. You may have confused me with another commenter.

          What I’ve noticed on here, is that some people (seems like the same ones over & over) tend to misquote or intentionally skew someone else’s words for their own purposes. Not saying you did that intentionally, SQ. I’ve also noticed when it’s brought to their attention, very few have the common courtesy to apologize. I think maybe Evan should make everyone who wants to comment take a mandatory reading comprehension quiz first. Haha.

        2. Serious question

          “I agree with Scott H. An engagement ring is one of those things women get excited about because of what it symbolizes. How terrible would she feel when she’s around her married or engaged friends and she’s the only one without a ring. It’s kinda like being the only kid that doesn’t get to have ice cream or go on the field trip.”

          If that was a different KK, sorry. If you meant that as tounge in cheek sarcasm, then I admit to missing the joke.

          You needn’t worry about my reading comprehension.

        3. KK

          SQ, Come again? Where does that say BIG ring? That’s what you claimed I said. One little word can change the meaning greatly sometimes; especially considering the subject matter in this case. If you read further down, I also said I wouldn’t care how much it cost (meaning how little it cost) or if it was an heirloom. That’s quite different than demanding a certain size, certain price ring.

        4. MikeTO

          i don’t identify as an MRA or MGTOW. And please stop making stuff up.

    3. 5.3
      Rebecca

      I sure hope my boyfriend isn’t thinking in these terms.  It’s not clear to me how partnering with me brings his lifestyle down.  He is accustomed to paying his own mortgage and food bills and I’ve been paying for mine.  I don’t see how combining our households ups any of those costs, even though he makes several times what I make.

  6. 6
    Runnergirl

    I agree with the study, as this type of situation occurred with me and my ex. We married in our early 20’s, both college students with minimum wage jobs. He was smart, and we had great intellectual conversations, as well as had many beliefs and interests in common. I graduated from college with both a BA, an MA, and a teaching credential, have been in the same profession for nearly 20 years, and earn over six-figures. My ex, however, dropped out of college 3 times, struggled with holding onto jobs, and ended up being a stay-at-home-dad to our 3 children as a result. To make a long story short, at the end of the day, I still ended up handling the majority of the domestic responsibilities after work and overall resented him for it (including him spending much of our money while I worked hard to earn it, landing us in a lot of debt), and he resented me for being the breadwinner, which he later claimed made him feel emasculated, although his employment and educational status was by his own choice. Needless to say, the educational and financial divide between us continued to cause much strife, and we eventually got divorced. Not wanting to suffer in another relationship from that unequal balance again, I chose to date only men who earned as much money as me or more, as well as had an education. My fiancé fits both, is very intelligent, and is great with the childcare (for his kids as well as my own) and the domestic responsibilities (they are very equal and balanced), so I feel more secure in knowing that there will not be resentment, and for the likelihood that we will not struggle financially, either. I want us to retire in 20 years and have a nice quality of life together, reaping the benefits of our hard work, not live check to check having the added stress of how to make ends meet, which is no way to live and will only result in friction in the relationship. So yes, this situation makes complete sense to me, and is not surprising to see in our society. People want a certain lifestyle, and those who work hard to remain at their desired level do not wish to go backwards. As well, people also want a partner with whom they can relate to intellectually too. No argument there.

    @ Stacy – I am unsure of where you live, but where I reside (CA), teachers do make a great salary (I am a teacher), on top of being educated. 🙂

    1. 6.1
      Peony

      I had a similar relationship with my ex, and I experienced domestic violence and emotional abuse in the marriage.  He was emasculated by my success and intelligence, though I did nothing overtly to make him feel bad.  It is a bad dynamic if the lower earning guy is fundamentally insecure, and has other negative traits, like financial irresponsibility, materialistic, unethical, drugs/alcohol, not pulling his weight with household and child rearing.  I ended up in a parental, nagging sort of role…and then eventually just silence and just giving up and taking on all responsibility in the marriage, and hiring a few things out, or having my parents help with things he should have been doing.

      I have also ended up in a great relationship with a very intelligent (both emotionally and intellectually), responsible, high earning partner.  Many of these traits go together.  I was not necessarily looking for high earner…it was preferred though based on my last experience…I actually don’t want to ever really commingle finances, I just don’t want to fight over them and I want to share paying for a lifestyle we jointly decide on, which also, coincidentally, does not mean materialistic.  I selected for responsible and intelligent first; his income happened to be much higher than mine.  His overall financial picture is worse than mine though due to the impact of his divorce but he will eventually recover.

      He was also specifically looking for a professional, educated partner.  I dated a few men like him who were looking for women who were in good careers and were compatible intellectually.  I also dated some high earners who were very irresponsible (bad business decisions, debt, gambling, tax problems, judgments, liens)…so you do need to get to know people, watch how they behave, listen to what they tell you, and use other resources to learn about them.

      My best friend also just married a very similar, wonderful man.  So they are out there, looking for women like us.

      I didn’t know what hypergamy was until long after my divorce and as I started dating and reading blogs.  I married when I was young, and purely for love the first time.  I knew, even as a young woman, that I could contribute financially, so I purposely ignored looking for high earning potential and looked for a fit in other ways.  This did not work out, so I looked for other traits and I am very happy now.

      I am convinced my higher earning position, as well as my role as parent in the relationship contributed to abuse.  Choosing a responsible man who didn’t need to be parented, and doesn’t fight being fiscally responsible has been a key to finding happiness.

       

      1. 6.1.1
        Runner girl

        Glad you found the beautiful light at the end of the crazy tunnel, Peony! It sure is interesting how much wiser we become through experience as we get older, and how much more we learn about ourselves and others in order to find what suits us best. 😊

  7. 7
    Noquay

    I am probably a older than most of the commenters and when younger, had no desire to have a family so my experience may be somewhat different.

    I have three degrees, including a doctorate in the STEM fields. I make good money and own four homes yet live simply and frugally. I raised myself out of poverty and am the only person in my family to get through high school. In addition to the day job (professor), I write, run a small farm, am an avid distance runner (yay Runnergirl!). In this rural mountain town, 75% of the folks have a high school education or less. I have lived in rural wooded areas by choice since 17 and this has to be the absolutely most difficult place to have a relationship that I’ve ever encountered. Most of my single, accomplished, women friends have left as a result. Some have married itinerant handymen/miners/ odd jobs men and it generally doesn’t work well. I myself dated two much less educated men and it was a disaster. Overall, the issues were radical differences in work ethic, core values, lifestyle issues. Despite some failings, what education does or should do is expand ones horizons, develop critical thinking skills, make for well read, well functioning citizens who can contribute to a diverse and changing society. My situation with much less educated men was similar to Runnergirl; working long hours teaching and with the farm, then being expected to have a perfectly clean and well functioning home with a well made supper on the table while the guys did little. They had very no sense of how to be tactful/respectful around folk they didn’t agree with so I would go to community events alone rather than witness colleagues/community members be disrespected. There were huge differences in attitudes toward drug/alcohol use. There was resentment that although I make good money, saving for retirement and caretaking a dying parent took precedence over ski trips and travel. Overall, a massive disconnect between core values. My husband was a much older retired Dean, my current SO is somewhat less educated but worked himself upward and we did not/do not have any of these problems.

     

    1. 7.1
      Runner girl

      It is nice to know that we are not alone, and that many others have shared similar experiences, therefore having similar views on this type of situation as well. While there are plenty of higher educated and/or earning women that are open to dating men that are not, yet are intelligent and have many other wonderful qualities, I also think many women prefer not to, so I suppose to each their own. As long as both partners are happy with their situation and have a great relationship, than that is what matters. Noquay, I am glad you found a guy who makes you happy! Double yay that you are a distance runner as well – that rocks!! 🙂

  8. 8
    KK

    I find all the comments very interesting. My interpretation is that the more education and higher salaried women are looking for men of equal or higher levels of education and salaries. While I think it is fair, in theory, to have those expectations; I’m not sure how successful those standards are in reality. If we look at what (most) men value most in women, it isn’t education level, career or earning potential but instead things like beauty, warmth, and character. In short, if you want x because you offer x, and he wants y because he offers x, it seems there’s going to be an overage of women wanting and offering x, with no one to take them up on their offer.

    1. 8.1
      Kevin

      I couldn’t have said it better myself. ..men dont care about any of those things…this is really more of a female problem. ..not once have I told a friend hey I met this new girl and they say “so where does she work”…the first thing they say is what does she look like…I told my girlfriend many times I will never make a decision factoring in her income…so her profession, income, and education level do not factor into us being together. ..she is a great cook though😆😆😆

      1. 8.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Kevin,

        not once have I told a friend hey I met this new girl and they say “so where does she work”…the first thing they say is what does she look like

        Women ask that question first, too. There is some myth floating around out there that women don’t care about man’s appearance. It simply isn’t true.

         

        1. N

          True for me. The convo with my girlfriends about a new man would be something like this..so, how does he look like? I’d say, he’s cute! What do you mean cute? How short is he? Not short, 6’4″ maybe 190 lbs. There’s an attraction there that’s neither too strong nor too weak. I said yes to second date and weekend date..

          Profession, education, car, unless pertinent to the date I’d mention i.e. I spilled diet coke in his car that smells new. My girlfriends would inquire what kind of car is he driving… Range Rover.. and what did he do? He didn’t flinch one bit and said don’t worry about anything when I apologized and asked if he needs to turn around. Income (none of my girlfriends ask this, and I don’t know the answer).

          Some form of physical attraction and feel-good vibe must be present for me to consider seeing a man. That said, I’m learning to avoid men I feel strong physical attraction sans good, positive intuition 🙂

        2. Emily, the original

          N,

          I am trying to remember the last conversation I had with someone about a potential new boyfriend. It was with my gay male co-worker about a guy he had been communicating with daily for 3 months. (The relationship was long distance for now.) We talked about how the guy looked (he showed me pics), how often the two communicated, what they talked about, little disagreements they had, how serious it was getting, when they were going to see each other, how he’s awakened in him a long-dormant sexual feeling that he’d turned off after his last long-term relationship ended. We spent .002 percent talking about what he did for a living. He has a job. He can support himself. That’s all that mattered.

        3. Tomas

          As a 29 year old man with very low social status (college dropout due to drug-addiction, 20k student debt but no degree, 5’6″, balding, not great looking) I cannot expect women to be attracted to me. I am trying my best to improve myself (finally sober, pursuing Comp.Sci. degree), but I know I don’t represent a “good catch”.

          What frustrates me is that, I’ve nurtured all these other qualities in myself (fairly competent singer/songwriter/producer of 16+ years, avid reader, good sense of humor even though I sound like a humorless idiot on here, excellent vocabulary and a broad knowledge of topics, constantly told by women that they can talk to me for hours…) yet none of this seems to matter, because my surface values are not up to par.

          I don’t even know why I’m writing this. I know the fault is clearly on me for having screwed up my life so badly, but I can’t help but wonder, why should any of this matter if you truly love a person?

          It’s because PURE LOVE does not exist. I see my friends in happy relationships, and I chuckle when I think what would happen if they woke up one day, 6 inches shorter and with a lot less hair, or if their girlfriends/wives were not at attractive as they presently are. Their “love” wouldn’t last a day.

          We delude ourselves into thinking love exists, but really it’s a social contract between two people that better resembles a business transaction than any meaningful bond.  Change a condition, and the contract goes out the window.

          And yes, I am aware that I reek of MGTOW.

          Even though I hate that movement and want nothing to do with it, I do have to admit that I embody the following:
          1) Irresponsible type (I could have tried harder to fight my addictions)
          2) The Bitter type (Though I recognize my bitterness stems from my failure to become a good person)
          3) No Other Options type (I honestly don’t blame women at all for not wanting to be in a relationship with me. Although I do everything I can to keep my bitterness inside, I’m sure it comes out in Pheromones or other subtle social cues that women are capable of reading as easily as a street sign).
          5) Guys with No Confidence (It would be delusional for me to be confident, because the only good qualities I have are of secondary importance).
          The qualities of primary importance with women are:
          -a man who is physically good looking with at least average height of 5’8″ or above
          -good hair [this quality’s importance will diminish if the man has a great body and is at least 6’0″]
          -and educational/socioeconomic status that is reflective of their own
          “Oh, you’re creative? Great, go make some art, and I will enjoy listening to it while I have sex with my hot 6’2″ boyfriend.”
          “Oh, you’re great at conversation? Awesome, I’m going to complain to you for 2 hours about how my hot 6’2″ boyfriend doesn’t have the same drive to find a place to live together as I do.”
          “Oh, that was such an awesome talk. I feel like we can talk for hours. You really are like the brother I’ve never had.”
          Honestly, I have more hatred for myself than any woman could possibly muster.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Tomas,

          Evan has written that men like happy women. Works the same way for women. Women like happy men.

          I had a couple of dates with a guy who had 2 masters, great conversationalist, dances, but does not have a steady 9-5 job. He helps a friend run an AirB&B apartment in a yuppy part of town.

          He was happy too. I characterized him as a modern day hippy (without the drugs, though 🙂 ). He was bald. But he was 6’2″.

          Except for the height and education, it sounds like you and he are pretty similar. However, the key ingredient is that he is very happy with himself and his life. He cultivated good friendships. Lots of friends. He visited a friend in Hawaii for a couple of months at a time this past year. I sure did envy him his “money-poor, time-rich” life as he termed it.

          Point is, Tomas. You seem to be on the right road. You’re fixing what you can. You’re a good conversationalist. You’re an artist.

          Find happiness within yourself and the try adding a woman to share that happiness with. Too many people believe, falsely, that a man or woman (a “relationship”) will automatically make their unhappy life happy.

          Doesn’t really work that way.

          For a relationship to work long-term, both partners need to be happy with themselves, such that they invite others to share their happiness. If you’re unhappy and you want your other to invite you into their happiness? Sooner or later, most likely sooner, you’re going to drag them down. You won’t be able to help it.

          Cultivate optimism and gratitude for what you have. Look for the good in others instead of the negative (notice the negative, just don’t focus on that). Learn to be happy to what you have. “Happiness is a choice” does not mean settling, but that you make a proactive choice every day to pick happiness over sad.

          And then the world shifts. You become more attractive to people. You just take it from there.

          I say that because in my youth, I was that unhappy person with no gratitude. I focused only on the negative in other people instead of their positives. I also focused on the negative within myself.

          As I starting becoming more accepting of other people, I became more accepting of myself, and a strange thing happened. I started to change for the better. Was lighter in spirit, friendlier, more open. The world was full of light instead of eternal dusk.

          You’ll know what I mean when you get there.

        5. Jordan

          Tomas, the problem is that the guys do the same thing. They want a tall girlfriend. I had one guy say that because I’m short (4’10) only pedophiles would be attracted to a girl my height. Would I date a guy that is 5’5″? Yes, but the guys don’t want to go after someone like me. They want a tall girl that’s a 10/10 on the looks factor.

    2. 8.2
      Things that make you go hmmmm

      Yet I haven’t heard of too many men from blue blood Ivy League big money families marrying strippers and waitresses from trailer parks….

       

      1. 8.2.1
        KK

        Are we talking about class as in social status / wealth or class as in ‘has class’ vs ‘trashy’? I think you’re conflating the two.

        Anyhow, a lot of those men end up marrying school teachers when they could’ve married their financial equal. Things that make you go hmmm indeed. Lol

        1. Things that make you go hmmm

          It should be obvious that a stripper from a trailer park and a blue blood from greenwich are most certainly in very different socioeconomic classes. Let’s not spin the hamster wheel because the truth isn’t what what you want it to be.

          No they are not marrying school teachers from average families. Most are marrying women who come from the same upper class background as them. Not all but most.

        2. KK

          “It’s not derogatory KK it’s a fact. You didn’t like the reality so you chose to see it as derogatory.”

          Comparing people in poverty to the wealthiest Americans and making an obvious, ridiculous statement about them not marrying each other  is in fact derogatory, regardless of the fact it’s a true statement.

          I don’t like the reality?? Why would I care either way? I belong to neither group so I certainly didn’t find it offensive towards me. Lol

           

      2. 8.2.2
        KK

        Look, things that make you go hmmm, you are the one that made a derogatory statement about blue bloods marrying strippers. No one else. I certainly didn’t. Here are the facts. Many people meet and marry in college; Ivy League or not. Many of these couples are from entirely different socioeconomic  backgrounds. Many are from similar soceononic backgrounds. It makes no difference. Most men do not care what you do or how much you make. Stacy2 has no advantage over a secretary when it comes to landing a wealthy husband.

        1. Stacy2

          The median age for marriage in now 29 years for men. Who are these people who “marry in college” that you speak of? Not the millennials that’s for sure.

          Whether or not somebody cares about how much their partner makes or his/her earnings potential really greatly depends on their personal situation. For example to me it matters a lot more than to some of my girlfriends who come from wealthy families and stand to receive substantial inheritance. It really is the same for men. Most men are aware that you can’t do much on one income anymore, so unless there’s other money coming in from their family or something like that, they will absolutely care about this stuff.

        2. Things that make you go hmmm

          It’s not derogatory KK it’s a fact. You didn’t like the reality so you chose to see it as derogatory.

          KK the mistake you are making is thinking of only of differences within the middle class. Woman grew up in suburbs, dad was a dentist, man grew up in rural area, dad was a farmer. Yes they had different lifestyles and their families may (or may not) have a big difference in their assets but they are both still middle class.

          Now if you want to talk about differences within the middle class, it’s still stands that people more often than not marry close to their education and income brackets (at least first marriages). Not all the time of course but do some research on the topic before you shoot the messenger.

          and please stop reading any value judgement into my comments. I’m talking statistics. Has nothing to do with their value as people.

        3. KK

          Stacy2, Men of a certain age / maturity level can spot a gold digger in record time. What baffles me is that you claim to be a high earner, yet you’re so concerned about the income level of a potential mate. Whether you marry or not, don’t you have a personal responsibility to make sure you can support yourself, not just now but into retirement? Personal responsibility, as in living below your means, saving, and investing for a comfortable retirement is more than achievable for your income, unless you choose to live beyond your means.

        4. Things that make you go hmm

          KK you’re still making this an emotional/moral issue. I’m going to put the statistics discussion to rest because… Just because.

          But I do want to address your last comments to Stacy becuase this is something I hear often. Just out of curiosity what part of the country do you live in?

        5. KK

          How have I made anything an emotional / moral issue? Please elaborate.

        6. Things that make you go hmmm

          Stacy brings up something so fundamental I’m not sure why it’s so offensive to some people.

          Millennials are the first generation to NOT live better than their parents. Think about that. The middle class is slipping backwards. What we always took for granted, that our children woukd have it easier than us, is no longer the case.

          Why would anyone male or female want to comnit a lifetime to someone who not only brings little to the table but doesn’t display a willingness to want to advance in life and build something  better?

        7. Things that make you go hmmm

          KK because you are stuck on telling me it’s mean to point out the facts, which are that most people marry within the range of their class, income and education. It doesn’t mean it 100% always happens that way but it is what it is. I am not the one making a moral or emotional judgement on the facts. You are.

          Because you call Stacy a gold digger for wanting some of similar income, education and class — what the majority of the people in the country are doing. Stacey didn’t say she wants someone making twice what she does so she can quit her job and sip lattes and play tennis all day. I always thought of a gold digger as someone seeking a partner with significantly more resources than them for the explicit purpose of fleecing them of those resources. I didn’t see Stacy write that. Perhaps I’ve been hearing the terms misused all these years though.

          Because you believe that people who can’t live on one income are just irresponsible with money when you haven’t provided any evidence to show this is true in the more expensive parts of the country. when someone does provide actual evidence to show your theory doesn’t hold up, your response is what…name calling?

          you never answered the question: what part of the country do you live in?

        8. Things that make you go hmmm

          Correction in my previous comment-  FAMILIES who can’t live on one income

    3. 8.3
      MikeTO

      There are millionaires that don’t look rich. A personal doesn’t have to be educated to be rich. Look at Tony Robbins he is a millionaire with no college education.

      There quite a few men that go invisible mode. They want to be invisible to women because we all know most women are after money. They drive beat up cars, wear plain clothes etc.

      Most well paid women will spend their money foolishly. A dude with an average wage if he is frugal enough and learn to save and invest can retire with at least a million dollars. Most women won’t or can’t do that because their life style is too high.

      1. 8.3.1
        SMC

        I just love that broad, ugly paintbrush with which you paint “most well paid women.”  We are a bunch of losers in your book, aren’t we?  Never mind that I’ve had not one but TWO husbands leave me with less than $200 in the bank, holes out of which I crawled bit by bit.  No, it’s WOMEN who are the ones looking for the free ride, to listen to you.  I’m glad most men don’t listen to you, though.  They recognize responsible women when they see one.

      2. 8.3.2
        Rebecca

        What is your definition of an average wage?  I have made approximately the median national wage my entire working career and that means my TOTAL income from college graduation to retirement will be about a million dollars.  The idea that I should be able to save at least 100% of my lifetime earnings if my lifestyle weren’t too high really kinda assumes a return on investment that only Bernie Madoff would dare to promise.

        1. KK

          “The idea that I should be able to save at least 100% of my lifetime earnings if my lifestyle weren’t too high really kinda assumes a return on investment that only Bernie Madoff would dare to promise”.

          Not true. Please research compound interest. If you can save and invest 5 – 10% of your take home pay every month, you should be able to retire quite comfortably. If you’re unsure of what to invest in / how to invest or how much you can afford to invest, meet with a financial advisor for advice.

        2. Rebecca

          Okay, KK, the Bernie Madoff thing is an exaggeration and you’re almost right.

          Assuming my income continues to grow at 3% per year (very accurate for my 23 working years so far and better than the median income worker in the U.S. http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation )

          and assuming that I save 10% of my PRE-tax income (not my take-home pay in this calculation)

          and assuming that my savings earns 9.6% per year ’cause that’s the stock market average for my working years so far (observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2009/03/average-annual-stock-market-return.html )

          and assuming I work from age 22 to 65

          I would retire with a savings balance of 89.8% of my lifetime earnings.

          To have 100% of my lifetime earnings from saving 5% of my take-home pay (which according to my most recent paycheck is 73.3% of my gross income), I would need to earn a 13.5% annual return on investment, or 40% better than the stock market.

          I’m not saying I won’t retire comfortably, I just won’t be a millionaire.  And it’s not because I haven’t earned an average income or because my lifestyle is too high.

  9. 9
    Adreana

    Kevin, from my experience, men do care about a woman’s income depending on how financially stable they are. If the guy doesn’t make much, he may not give a damn how much money a woman  makes (at the beginning), but if they get married or move -in together , he’s gunna start resenting her for not pitching in.

    My mom received an education and went to work but had to quit after marriage to raise my brother and I. My dad was completely fine with it, but when times got tough financially, he started looking down on her for not having a job and asked her to go get one…at that point she was exhausted and she didn’t have enough experience to get hired. The same thing happened with many of my  friends…things are great at the beginning with the man being the sole provider, but sooner or later reality hits and they realize marriage and kids are VERY expensive.

    While I think the guys who claim they don’t care about a woman’s income are well-intentioned, I don’t think they are being realistic.

     

    1. 9.1
      Kevin

      Dont get me wrong…I like her to be gainfully employed so she is not home sitting on the couch getting fat…which of course she does work…but all the household bills have my name on them…and when they get here I dont look in her direction…when we bought this house i made made sure it was something I could afford with any pitch in from her, and like I said I make no financial decisions factoring her income…of course she factors my income all the time when she spends know she doesn’t have any responsibility financial wise lol…as far as ivy league marrying strippers know…but they may a woman from their rich lifestyle social group that hasn’t worked or earned any of her own money and was just born into it, which really is the same thing or worse…entitled, high maintenance, lazy…at least a stripper worked

      1. 9.1.1
        Stacy2

        this is all great, just one question: how would you fare is she divorced you, got half of your stuff and court-ordered alimony for 1/2 your salary for 10 years because she needed to “maintain the lifestyle she has become accustomed to”?

        1. KK

          I’m guessing he would fare about the same as the poor SOB that married and procreated with you. Lol

    2. 9.2
      Runner girl

      Some men don’t care, especially not at first, when just getting to know someone and not knowing whether dating or the relationship will last (just wanting to have fun and enjoy who they are with). However, I think that once the relationship becomes more serious (like when thinking about commitment or marriage), then it does start to matter, since both incomes affect a couple’s ability and resources to move forward (plan a wedding, buy a home, have children, etc.). Some men do care from the beginning, as did my fiancé. He owns his own home, has 2 children to support (and pays support to his ex-wife), and has an advanced degree and well-paying professional job. The last thing he wanted was to date a woman who would be a financial drain on him (or only date him for his earning potential, in his words, “Want someone to save them,” should the relationship get serious. I totally understand, and have no problem with that. While men overall desire and value many (if not all) of the same character traits in a partner as women do, like kindness, honesty, attraction, supportive, etc., I do think income and education are certainly something men consider at some point as well.

  10. 10
    Stacy2

    Very rich men marry strippers (see: Larry Robbins second wife), but in my experience such men do not come from blue blood families who trace their lineage to mayflower lol. These are self-made men who generally don’t give an f about this stuff. And yes, blue-blood wasp types generally stick to their country club, and I find that it’s within this demographic that you see a lot of couples where men are much more attractive than their wives, even when neither is rich. The only explanation to that I can think of is class selection.

    I agree with what “things that make you go hmm” says, spot on about New York/east coast situation.

  11. 11
    JB

    I know I’ve mentioned this in other threads on this blog. As a guy online dating in his 50’s I’m up against not only a woman’s status,  job title, education, income etc……. in her judging me but also and even more so I’m up against “well my ex husband is a _____(lawyer, vice president, CFO)” so I can’t possibly date a ______(teacher, salesman, electrician, etc…) what will everyone think?”. If I had a dollar for every woman online who I never heard from again after the “so what do you do for a living?” email I’d be a millionaire. What these women my age don’t understand is that they were young, attractive and in shape when they “pulled” their ex husband and now many are not but they still think they’re “entitled” to that now even if they’re uneducated and been a stay at home mom the last 15 yrs. If I Google a woman who’s online and find out her ex is a VP or whatever I don’t even bother emailing them because I know I’ll be wasting my time even if she’s below average looking.

  12. 12
    Chance

    Heh would love to hear McLovin’s commentary relating to some of these comments.

  13. 13
    Stacy2

    @KK

    What baffles me is that you claim to be a high earner, yet you’re so concerned about the income level of a potential mate. Whether you marry or not, don’t you have a personal responsibility to make sure you can support yourself, not just now but into retirement? Personal responsibility, as in living below your means, saving, and investing for a comfortable retirement is more than achievable for your income, unless you choose to live beyond your means.

    What baffles me is that you don’t seem to understand very simple mathematical logic that combining resources buys a better life.

    A decent house in a good school district where I live starts at $1m. On a conventional 2.75x income ratio, this would require an income of $370K to afford it. The top 1% cut off by income in my city is $380K. So, with only one working, you would need to be in the top 1% of earners to afford a decent life for your family, basically. On the other hand, with 2 working and pulling even half of that each, you could afford this life very easily, and have more stability too. That is the point. And please don’t tell me to “move where I can afford to live”. I can afford to live in such an area, I just can’t afford to live there while supporting lower income partner who is not putting in his half.

      1. 13.1.1
        Kevin

        If thats what 1 million gets you its time to move.

        1. Things that make you go hmmm

          Then pretty much the entire east and west coast are off limits Kevin.

          I’m really shocked at the ignorance over this issue and I really wish people would post where they live to help put it in context.

          I live in the DC metro area for the record. It’s now the 3rd most expensive housing market/COL behind NYC and the Bay Area.

          Please don’t tell me to move either. There are very few places in the country where I can do what I do here.

    1. 13.2
      Stacy2

      And, I would also add, that it takes years of hard work to be making this kind of money, and it never really gets easier. I regularly put in 80 hours weeks. And as a woman, I would presumably be the one also going through pregnancy and doing most of caring for a baby, at least early on, on top of that, while my partner does what exactly – bbq-ing on the backyard I paid for after his 9-5 job that pays enough to cover property taxes and our grocery bills? I would resent that so much. And he would resent me back. This is this marrying down so rarely works.

      1. 13.2.1
        Kevin

        For so many years men have worked and supported women financial wise for nothing but a daily hug and kiss and occasional sex lol…and just the thought of reversing those roles make a woman disgusted and have absolutely no respect for a man…things that make u say hmmm lol

        1. Stacy2

          That is not the point Kevin. Men can’t do it either anymore. The days of supporting a household on one income are gone. Nobody can do it but the richest people when the cost of living is so disconnected from wages that you need to be in the top 1% to qualify for middle class living. This is a seriously screwed up picture and its only going to get worse.

        2. Jen

          You are mistaken if you think that is true. Only in recent times have people been able to live sort of comfortably alone. In the past, women did not stay at home and do nothing. First of all, they were pregnant and breastfeeding quite a bit ( my greatgrandmother had 14kids, which was sort of typical). In addition to baby-making and care-taking, they cooked, cleaned ( there were no dishwashers, no microwaves, no fast-food places, no washing machines). They sewed clothing ( no stores with cheap mass-produced clothes and products imported from 3rd world countries). The women worked hard at these chores. The men worked hard as well, with their earned income being spent on their families.

      2. 13.2.2
        KK

        Stacy2, That may be the case where you live as well as some other areas of the country, but there are many areas where a one income household earning less than $100k can provide very well for a family. I’ve known families who have done it on considerably less and fared just fine. The thing is they sacrificed some material things in order for the mother to be able to stay home. Older home instead of brand new, buying older cars and holding onto them instead of brand new luxury vehicles traded in every 3 years, shopping sales at the mall instead of splurging on brand name clothing. It comes down to priorities. I would never tell anyone to move, but you have to understand that if you want to live in one of the most expensive cities, that’s on you.

    2. 13.3
      KK

      “What baffles me is that you don’t seem to understand very simple mathematical logic that combining resources buys a better life.”

      I actually do understand that. The part that confuses me is that an empowered feminist such as yourself is a walking, talking contradiction. So… you admit you NEED a man?

      1. 13.3.1
        Stacy2

        No, I don’t need a man. A man as a partner in life is only as valuable as his contribution to our lives together. And if that contribution consists solely of a sperm cell and a grocery bill, sorry a man like that is more trouble than he’s worth, by a huge margin. I could live very comfortably, enjoy doing things that I like, have a baby on my own if I wanted to, have my way 100% of the time, and save for a retirement – all on my own. It doesn’t bother me one bit. I would prefer to have a good partner, because it would be better together. Me times 2 is twice as good as me on my own LOL. But do I need him – no, not at all.

        1. KK

          I guess I’m just less materialistic. I don’t value a man simply for the lifestyle he can provide. There are other things that are more important, in my opinion. Ask any divorced woman who was married to a top earner and she will likely tell you the same; unless she hasn’t learned her lesson. There’s something to be said for the average Joe. I know you don’t see it now, but one day you might regret having passed up some really good guys in favor of some douche canoe over the size of his wallet. “Not all wealthy mean are douche bags”. Not all, but a majority are. I stand by that. Look up narcissism in men in positions of power. And no, it isn’t just a high sense of self. It’s a personality disorder that’s abusive and highly damaging to anyone they get involved with.

        2. Stacy2

          There’s something to be said for the average Joe. I know you don’t see it now, but one day you might regret having passed up some really good guys in favor of some douche canoe over the size of his wallet

          And why on earth are good character and good earnings potential mutually exclusive? Plenty of men with great character earn decent living, duh. These are the ones you want to marry, not the douchebags.

          The opposite also true, plenty of “average Joes” are assholes.

        3. Stacy2

          KK, please don’t twist things.

          Most professionals in finance, legal, media, medicine,  technology, other high paying fields, make good money but are by no means wealthy, merely affluent. Most of them DO have good character. Sorry, but like somebody else said, the reality is not what you want it to be. It’s not “decent people driving old cars and shopping sales in malls” vs “wealthy materialistic douchebags with personality disorders”. This is such a stupid cliché.

        4. KK

          I believe I made the disclaimer. Lol. But I just want to be clear as to what you’re looking for. A man that is in the top 1%. Let’s decrease that percentage substantially by adding he must be a good guy with decent character. From there, I’m guessing you want someone within your age range. Now let’s add the part about attraction and chemistry and it of course, has to be mutual, and you should be his best option. Yes, sounds realistic. Lol

        5. Stacy2

          @KK

          I don’t think you understand the difference between the wealthy and merely affluent. But, assuming that now you do,

          Yes, sounds realistic. Lol

          Actually yes, it does. There’s still MORE men in high paying jobs here than there’re women. My peers are mostly men, and no, they do not want to settle down with  “secretaries” as they’re painfully aware of the cost of living situation also. And I don’t need somebody my age, I am ok with a pretty wide age range – though its is pretty irrelevant, settling down age range here is between 35-45. Before that they’re playing the field, after that they’re lifetime bachelors.

        6. KK

          Stacy2,

          I didn’t even make that claim. The comment you’re referring to said nothing about anyone’s character. I said that people sometimes sacrifice materially in favor of higher priorities.

          The other comment, which you’ve conveniently bundled together with the other one to fit your false accusation is where I mentioned character. Apparently, I need to reiterate. I never said wealthy or affluent people had personality disorders nor did I say that less wealthy, less affluent people have great character. What I did say, and I will stand by, is that the TOP earners, as in CEOs, VPs, you get the picture… tend to have a higher rate of narcissism than the average person. Look it up.

        7. Stacy2

          Actually, KK, what you said was that **I** will chose a wealthy douchebag, pass up a decent average Joe and will later regret it. Aside from being a tad bit personal, opposing nice but poor and douchey but rich is stupid, as several others pointed out, not to mention it omits the whole population of professionals in between average joes and wealthy douchebags. that’s all.

        8. KK

          “opposing nice but poor and douchey but rich is stupid”.

          Stupid for sure and you’re the one who said it. Not me. Stacy, I have tried repeatedly to converse with you and repeatedly you have taken my comments out of context, twisted my words, and accused me of saying things I’ve never said. What advanced degree is it you have again??

  14. 14
    Things that make you go hmmm

    It seems some people must sort the world around them into rigid boxes so as to make sense of the things about their lives they don’t like. Seems like a bad way to live, eespecially given that they don’t seem to be too happy with outcome of living in lala land either.

    1. 14.1
      KK

      Um…What??? Where do you pull this stuff out of? Things that make you go hmmm indeed. Lol! Including your other comment that claims I said you were mean… Huh? What are you even talking about?

  15. 15
    Stacy2

    @Things that make you go hmmm

    [sarcasm on]

    I suppose, women like us should abandon all we have worked for (ie our careers), marry “average Joes” and move to the middle of nowhere where housing is cheap and we can live happily ever after clipping coupons, shopping on sales and driving the same car until retirement. That would make us decent, family oriented women with the “right” priorities, as opposed to materialistic feminazi. How dare we to want a relationship with an equal? That’s what I am getting from this discussion. Lol

    [sarcasm off]

    1. 15.1
      Adreana

      Stacy, I get you. Where I live it costs  OVER  $550, 000 to be able to afford a decent -sized home in a safe, nice area ( notice I said “nice” not “great”). Sure, I could move to another state, but I would never want to leave my family and close friends behind. And there is no way i’m moving into a “bearable enough” home into a “bearable neighborhood”. Maybe some are fine with content but I choose happiness….

      I love my career and I have no intention of quitting but if I did, I would understand it’s the demise of the relationship unless the man makes good money. No matter how much a couple loves each other, long-tern financial problems are bound to lead to resentment.

      Just reality folks….

       

       

      1. 15.1.1
        MikeTO

        LOL You women are so clueless. You don’t want to buy a home unless you know you will live there for the rest of your life. You’re better off renting an apartment than buying a house. The interest alone is a killer. Every time you sell and buy a home you are paying commission fee to the real estate agent and paying taxes.

        1. Adreana

          You missed the point- no one said they want to buy a house if they don’t intend on living in it long term…

          and apartments are miserable for couples. lol

           

        2. MikeTO

          I didn’t say long term.

        3. SparklingEmerald

          And every time you rent an apartment you pay an application fee, a non-refundable cleaning fee, and a (supposedly) refundable security deposit — but yeah good luck getting that part back.  And when you move out, you get bumpquist.

          So yeah, buying a home is good for long term, and I’m not sure why you singled out women for your ill informed advice.  Men and women both purchase houses, sometimes as a couple, often times as a single person on their own.

        4. Chance

          Fees associated with owning an apartment are near-microscopic compared to the costs of commission, maintenance, interest, etc., on a house.  The equity build-up associated with owning a house often is not worth as much as the extra money saved (and re-invested) whilst living in an apartment – even if you live in the home long-term.

           

          Many Americans act in a very emotional and foolish manner when it comes to sticks and bricks.

        5. MikeTO

          Chance, let’s not forget the housing bubble when it pops people will lose a lot of equity on the house. It maybe worth far less than the price they bought in the past.

          In Canada there is no security deposit required to rent an apartment. There is no cleaning fee, etc. The only requirement is paying first and last month’s rent.

        6. Serious question

          so MikeTO and Chance, you’re Canadian I gather?

          Does Canada not offer a tax deduction on mortgage interest and taxes?

          yes this is a serious question….

        7. Chance

          U.S.  The deduction is just a fraction of what you’re paying in interest.  Bottom line is that buying real estate is often not as smart as renting.  A lot of Americans think it’s a no-brainer that buying is better because of the equity, but it isn’t that clear-cut most of the time.  There are a lot of offsetting factors to consider based on each person’s situation, and without sitting down and crunching all of the numbers, one may never know which is the better financial decision.

        8. Serious question

          “The deduction is just a fraction of what you’re paying in interest.” That’s not true, unless you own a home worth well over $1 million.

        9. Chance

          A Serious Question: Ah, was typing quickly without thinking.  I meant tax savings.  Yes, you can deduct the entire amount, but you only save a fraction.  Let’s assume we’re past the standard deduction amount when itemizing:  $1,000 in interest for someone in a 25% marginal tax bracket saves $250.  That is, by definition, saving a fraction of the interest paid.

      2. 15.1.2
        SparklingEmerald

        Most decent apartments (and even crappy ones) have a higher rent than my mortgage.   Perhaps on a really cheap apartment, my mortgage, utils and maintenance would bring it near equal. I’ve had a room mate for the past 2 and half years, (She’s great) so with her living here it’s CHEAPER than an apt. even factoring in utils and repairs.  Plus, I don’t have to hear the people in the apt above me thumping around. My sweetheart owns his place as well.  When we decide which one to live in together, we will rent the other one out, and that will provide a small source of additional income.  Yes, the going rents are high enough to make a decent profit after subtracting for the expenses involved being a landlord or landlady.

        Plus my Dad has made a killing buying, selling and renting out real estate.

        I don’t expect to do as well as he did, because I don’t want to own several homes like he did, and the real estate market isn’t quite what it was when he started buying homes, but I don’t regret owning this home.  When I see the price I would pay on a cramped 1 BR apt, I don’t regret it one bit.

        Plus, this house will be paid for eventually, can’t say that about an apartment.

         

         

        1. MikeTO

          How long will it take pay off the mortgage. Most people take 30 years. You will pay a lot in interest alone. Unless you pay cash you are losing a lot of money in interest.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Ahhh, Candadian.  I heard the economy is quite different in Canada IRT to homeownership and such.

          I actually bought my first condo when I was 30 and single, because it was CHEAPER than renting an apartment.  I had 2 cats, so the regular deposit, and the pet deposit for EACH cat, and the regular non-refundable cleaning fee, and the non-refundable cleaning fee for EACH cat, plus the application fee was way higher than my move in cost for my 2BR condo.  The condo I bought had “sweat equity” so I moved in with no down payment and was supposed to do some light clean up and touch up painting to earn my down payment, but they didn’t even make me do that.  I had a nice split 2 bedroom plan, each with their own bathroom, so I rented out the other room, for half my mortgage payment and get a hefty tax break on the interest.

          For me, at the time it was a better deal financially.

          As is staying in my house at the moment is a better deal as well.

          However, I think I would rather be a Canadian and have their socialized health care, then to have the American home ownership advantages.   My home will be paid off in less than 10 years, so I won’t have that expense, but even though I am in good health now, I have no idea what my health care costs will be down the road.

    2. 15.2
      Things that make you go hmm

      Stacy, yeah. It’s pretty sad.

  16. 16
    Adreana

    That is like saying all attractive women are dumb or conceited…

    Just as the average Joe’s want to be judged based on their character and not their salary, the wealthy ones want the same thing.

    1. 16.1
      KK

      Please re-read my comment. I never used the word “all”. Rarely, do I use that word. I was referring to the men that Stacy2 wants to date. The TOP 1% of the entire population of the U.S. Now, when we look at that group alone, please note again I didn’t say “all”. I said a lot. Big difference in meaning. Do you ever wonder why so many of our presidents have been womanizers? Or why MANY men in powerful positions eventually get caught doing some pretty heinous acts? There’s a reason. I am not judging ALL wealthy people. I’m commenting on a phenomenon that has been documented on the VERY WEALTHIEST, MOST POWERFUL men.

      1. 16.1.1
        Things that make you go hmm

        KK are you claiming that wealthy men are more likely to be womanizers? Got anything to back that up?

        the reason you hear about famous wealthy men who are womanizer is because they’re famous and wealthy.  No one would have cared about Anthony Weiner’s dick pics if he flipped burgers. In the time it took me to type this message, I’m sure dozens of dick pics were sent by men in similar circumstances (married, cheating) who are neither wealthy nor famous and it’s not making the 11:00 news.

        1. Adreana

          Yes, things that make you go hmm,

          Just watch shows  like Cheaters and Catfish. Are most of the men on there  wealthy?

          Nope, they are average Joe’s alright.

      2. 16.1.2
        Stacy2

        The 1pc is not the “very wealthiest most powerful men”. Please, just stop with this nonesense. Most of these people are professionals who don’t control shit.

        It’s the top 0.1% you may be thinking about, that is the old and new oligarchy that is controlling everything that goes on in this country. It is bewildering that you would lump together a doctor who makes $400k in a private practice (affluent) with the likes of Larry Ellison (worth  $50b) in the same group and paint them with the same brush.

        1. KK

          Your logic is bewildering. Statistics show that wealthy men are somewhere between 30 & 40% more likely to be unfaithful.

        2. Stacy2

          @KK

          you are the only person in this discussion who has been attempting to equate or link character and income/wealth, then claiming you didn’t say it, then trying it again (lab studies, really?). Nobody else did that. And, ironically, you are also the only one who has personally attacked others (I believe you called or implied me being a “gold digger” twice).

          Nobody here said that there’s anything wrong with being “average” aka middle class. You, however, continue to say that there’s something wrong with being affluent. May be you should look inside yourself to figure out why successful women and their desire to parter up with equals bothers you so much.

      3. 16.1.3
        Adreana

        Saying “most” or “the majority” is also a judgement and generalization.  Look at the criminals , wife- beaters, cheaters  in the news, plenty of them are average Joe’s….

        There is “evidence” to be found on both sides but it still doesn’t make things black or white. As far as I remember, Stacy said she wants someone who’s a professional and makes good money ( her equal) and not  necessarily the top 1% as you put it. And even if she DOES want a very wealthy man , who are we to say she can’t find one’s with decent character. They are more available than we think…

        Take one of my girlfriends for example, right now she’s working on her MBA in public administration …the man she’s been dating for the last 3 years is  wealthy from what I gathered ( not the top 1%, but still makes a very good living).  She’s incredibly happy and he treats very well ( flowers, traveling together, actually likes that she’s getting an education,  incredibly emotionally supportive and makes her feel feminine).

        Can you tell I’m jealous?

        Listen,  I used to be one of those women that  didn’t care about a guy’s education or if he made less than I did. Now, I realize that love is good but without compatibility it means nothing. If the man doesn’t have a college degree, he will not appreciate the hard work it took to earn mine, and he’ll most likey want me to quit it if we moved-in together or got married .Also , whether you guys want to admit it or not, most of you would feel emasculated if the woman earns more than you ( I know I would)….

        Life is tough and most of us women realize this. We know the intial lovey dovey feelings will evaporate with life’s pressures and demands. This is why we want ( and have earned the right) to be with our equal. We simply aren’t in the moment as you guys are and we think long-term.

        One last thing, please don’t confuse “equal” in education and income with us trying to look or act like men. We want to be able to take care of ourselves but still remain feminine and be treated as ladies. Feminity and independence don’t have to be mutually exclusive…. something “average Joe’s” seem to lack an understanding in.

        1. KK

          I never realized “average Joe” was such a negative term. Middle class, hard working, honest, decent guy. That would be my definition. Average. Not rich. Not poor. In the middle. Get it??? Average.

        2. Adreana

          That is the thing, “average” used to be good but in this economy it isn’t enough, unfortunately. The cost of living is getting higher ,and “average” these days gets you  a crummy apartment or a home in a merely tolerable area. We are NOT talking about mansions, living by the beach, or in Beverly Hills…

          Women also feel the pressure of “average” not being good enough. We don’t like it, but we’re working hard on ourselves and doing the best we could to live a good life. I know plenty of  hard working average Joe’s living with average Jane’s …the stress of finances really doesn’t give them enough breathing room to be free and happy. It’s sad but it’s the harsh reality of life….

          Some of us have worked too hard on ourselves to avoid these living conditions….which is why being with an equal is the smart thing to do.

           

           

        3. CaliforniaGirl

          Same here, after my divorce from a very smart, educated and good earning husband who made me miserable and unhappy, I decided that I don’t care about anything unless the guy makes me happy. My ex made me happy for exactly 6 months until we moved together.  After that, I had to deal with all his poor financial decisions and it cost me a lot of money and resentment after. I just couldn’t afford him and felt he drags me down. I started to feel poor because either we hanged out with his friends where a meal at Chipotle was considered a dinner out or with my friends where I had to pay for both of us because he couldn’t afford any of the activities.

  17. 17
    really emk?

    “Educated urban women would sooner go with a Black man in a suit than a White man in camouflage.”

    Wow. You say that as if it’s assumed that all things being equal White men are automatically better. But if he’s broke then its acceptable for “educated urban [white] woman” to date a Black man. Why else would she settle for a Black man?

    That sounds a little bigoted to me.

    Did it escape your attention that women of color are women too?

     

    1. 17.1
      Noquay

      Speaking AS a woman of color, I think what emk is saying is that most tend to date/marry within their own race. However most of us educated women prioritize being with an equal first and see race more as an afterthought. Evan was right; sorry to offend but most educated women find redneck culture a huge turnoff, even those of us who are outdoorswomen ourselves. Pics of dead animals, dead fish, Harleys, pickups, any form of recreational vehicle is good reason to think twice, maybe thrice. A good many of us overedumacated types sought education as our escape from that culture and we have no intention of returning. Again, as a brown chick, I find it amusing and sad that I am automatically matched with men of color by friends and on dating sites regardless of whether we are in the least bit compatible. No one would tell a White person to date someone solely because they’re White. I assume this happens to men too.

      1. 17.1.1
        really???

        “Speaking AS a woman of color, I think what emk is saying is that most tend to date/marry within their own race.”

        Then he must not have been including Black women among “educated urban women who would sooner date a Black man…”

        “Again, as a brown chick, I find it amusing and sad that I am automatically matched with men of color by friends and on dating sites regardless of whether we are in the least bit compatible. No one would tell a White person to date someone solely because they’re White. ”

        Didn’t you just say people tend to date/marry within their race? Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

         

        1. Noquay

          Really

          I think Evan is looking at a study by OK Cupid and other sites that had shown that as a woman of color, your race was a detriment because yeah, all other things equal, men tend to want women in their own racial group. Us chix of color don’t think that way. We’re not marrying solely on the basis of race. In urban areas often have a significant educated Black population, certainly educated Black women are seeking similarly educated Black men, they have a pool to choose from unlike rural/suburban areas. I assume Black women do not marry Black men solely because they’re Black. I doubt that they’d marry someone solely because they’re Black. Again, remember that large cities yield large numbers of educated folk of color. Hope some Black women confirm this. I am Native/Black/European who identifies with her Native side. Though I follow the old ways in terms of religion, I have little in common with most older Native men. Here there’s a high (50%) Hispanic population where 75% of everyone didn’t get thru high school. Typical of the rural Southwest. Many brown educated sisters have white husbands; some white educated women married educated Hispanic men. Folk who are uneducated cross racial lines as well. Regardless of educational level, socioeconomics/values come first, race second. My SO is White and from out of area. Our lifestyles and core values mesh far more than with locals of any race.

           

        2. Really the end this time

          Noquay please stop assuming you know anything about me or my race because you don’t. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m entitled to mine. Evan is entitled to his. End of story.

    2. 17.2
      Henriette

      I don’t think EMK means this in a bigoted way, at all.  I believe he is simply pointing out that times have changed;  20 years ago, people more highly prioritized dating within their own race whereas today, people more highly prioritize dating within their own class.  He isn’t suggesting that, all things being equal, white men are better but rather that factors like race (or religion, or ethnic background) are less important factors today than in the past whereas factors like education, income and “class” (to be perfectly honest, I’m not sure how social class is defined in current North America) are as important as, or more important than, ever.

  18. 18
    Morris

    Reading the article and looking at the graph. Am I the only one who thinks nothing has changed? Basically women are working and earning more. Of course marriages are going to be more equal income wise. That’s what happens when women enter the work force and start making dough.

     

     

    But if you look at the graph. It is clear, with the exception of teaching, that white collared men marry women who earn less. Or in other words nothing has changed. Women still want to marry someone that makes more money and is as educated as them. Like the article said. High earning women are less likely to marry to begin with.(Equaling a quarter of the marriage decline itself.)

     

     

    Marriage is in a DECLINE. Women still want a man that earns more and is as educated. Of course the marriages that DO happen are more equal. Clearly men are ok marrying women that earn less or are less educated. There’s just less of them now. So until women feel the same way, marriage will continue to be on the decline. Which might be fine. I think it’s an outdated concept anyway.

     

     

    To the upper income people trying to defend marrying and ‘equal’ because they live in a expensive city. Stop trying to justify it by saying you live in an expensive city. Marriages are still happening in lower income brackets there as well. You want a certain lifestyle. And you want your partner to be able to contribute to that. Nothing wrong with that. Just don’t get mad when there aren’t as many partners available. Or if said partners don’t have the same requirement and overlook you. We are all allowed to look for what we want in a partner.(Looks, youth, education, income…)

    1. 18.1
      KK

      Thank you, Morris, for your rational, insightful comment! I couldn’t have said it better myself (or I would have). Lol.

    2. 18.2
      Things that make you go hmm

      “We are all allowed to look for what we want in a partner.” Indeed we are.

      With all due respect, this blog exists and gets the volume it does for the very reason that people have such a difficult time accepting this fact.

      I’d be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every comment from:

      -short men angry that women prefer taller men

      -overweight women angry that men prefer thin women

      -older men who go apeshit when a  younger woman expresses a preference for men her own age

      -older women who verbally assault men who express a preference for younger attractive women

      -men upset when a woman expresses a preference for men who earn more than her

      -women upset when a man expresses a preference for women who are not career focused

      and so on.

      People want want they want but have a real problem with everyone else wanting what they want when it excludes them — even when they have no interest in said person! (That’s the part I find mind boggling).

      Jealousy is the most prolific human emotion. It’s what makes the world go round and unfortunately drives our romantic and sexual relationships and makes us and say and do things that bear zero resemblance to logic.

      FWIW, Morris, you say Stacey for example wants a well off man but she should not complain if she can’t find one because her pool is smaller. I haven’t heard Stacey complain about this at all (unless I missed a previous comment).

      1. 18.2.1
        Morris

        @Things that make you go hmm – I wasn’t directing that at anyone in particular. And I haven’t been keeping track of who said what. If Stacey, or anyone, wants a well of man that’s her/their prerogative. If she’s not upset about how things are going, even better.(And if she’s with a well of man, more power to her.) It’s more the tone a lot of topics like these have when people do get mad.

      2. 18.2.2
        Emily, the original

        Things that make you go hmmm,

        I agree with you in that everyone is allowed to want whatever they want in a partner, but there is sometimes a large disconnect between what we want and what we can get, meaning that all of us need to exercise self-awareness.

        If you are an average-looking, average-earning 60-year-old man, the chances that an attractive, in-demand 30-year-old woman will find you appealing are probably not great.

        I think that disconnect, even more so than the jealously of being excluded from what others want, is what makes people angry.

         

         

        1. Things that make you go hmm

          Emily, I think its rare that people do NOT have a disconnect between what they want and can get. It’s human nature to want the best. Some people are just less delusional about it. Some people are also less delusional about the realities of life, in that romance is wonderful but it’s not going to sustain you through 40 years of bills, diapers, temper tantrums, layoffs, moves, tax audits, deaths in the family, etc. IMO one has to be looking for more than “what’s attractive to me now” when they settle down. As unromantic as it is, the reality is that marriage is a business partnership. You may have aspirations of running a Fortune 500 company or a small mom and pop shop. Neither is better than the other, but in either case you need a business partner who’s commited to do what it takes to make it succeed and stay focused on the goal. That’s all I’m saying.

        2. Chance

          “If you are an average-looking, average-earning 60-year-old man, the chances that an attractive, in-demand 30-year-old woman will find you appealing are probably not great.”

           

          Lol this ain’t the most common disconnect that shows itself around here.

        3. Things that make you go hmm

          what is the most common disconnect Chance?

        4. Emily, the original

          Things that make you go hmm,

          “As unromantic as it is, the reality is that marriage is a business partnership.”

          Agreed. It’s like running a really boring non-profit.  🙂

      3. 18.2.3
        Adreana

        “People want want they want but have a real problem with everyone else wanting what they want when it excludes them — even when they have no interest in said person”.

        The “average Joe’s” are just making things  hard on themselves. If they honestly don’t  care about a woman’s education/career/income, then this shouldn’t affect , and nor does it apply to them! There are plenty of single, “average Jane’s” out there who don’t give a hoot about these things….

        Trying to convince Stacey and the rest of us is a waste of time. I’ve given “average Joe’s” chances before, and now it’s time to make a change.

         

         

         

         

    3. 18.3
      Chance

      Morris, I immediately noticed that as well.  I think the chart at the top of the article is what’s most telling.  If women were willing to be in a more egalitarian marriage, it seems to me that we would see the gap between single women’s salaries and married women’s salaries, as a percentage of the men’s salaries, close significantly over the time period shown.  However, the gap appears to have only been slightly reduced.  When you combine this with the fact that more married women are opting out of the workforce than in the recent past, it is hard to come to the conclusion that women are trending towards what would be objectively considered an egalitarian marriage.

       

      Women want equality outside the home because that is where they were at a disadvantage a long time ago.  Inside the home, they mostly aren’t prepared for equality because this is an area where they have traditionally enjoyed many protections.

      1. 18.3.1
        Things that make you go hmm

        So Stacy has it right then? She earns a good living and is seeking a man who earns similar to what she does. She’s not talking  about quitting and being taken care of. She’s pulling her own weight financially. Right?

        Though somehow I don’t think that’s what you mean by “egalitarian” relationship.

        Chance would you marry a woman who makes significantly more money than you?

        1. Chance

          You seem to be responding to something I didn’t say.  I don’t recall criticizing, or even disagreeing with, anything that Stacy2 said relating to this topic.  I actually agree with her in that I think the government has failed high-earners because the laws surrounding marriage/divorce are so punitive to them.

           

          “Though somehow I don’t think that’s what you mean by “egalitarian” relationship.”

           

          I’m not exactly sure where you think I am coming from.  I think my interpretation of egalitarian is in line with pretty much everyone else.  What are you thinking that I mean by “egalitarian”?

           

          “Chance would you marry a woman who makes significantly more money than you?”

           

          If I believed in marriage, then sure.  Do you think I would be threatened by a woman who makes more or something like that?  Men don’t care if a woman makes more.  The only time men get irritated is when their female partner looks down on them for making less.  However, if a woman who made significantly more than me wanted to marry me (this kind of scenario really requires one to suspend his/her disbelief btw), then I would require her to make sure her income/assets are protected even though I would never take her to court in the event of a divorce.  I would want her to feel secure in knowing that I am not entitled to what she earns.  This is a key difference between men and women in our society today as many women seem to feel that they are entitled to a man’s money (although women may not fully realize it often times).

        2. Things that make you go hmm

          Thank you for answering the question Chance.

          Personally I think anyone that gets married today without a prenup is off their rocker. But that’s just me.

        3. CaliforniaGirl

          @Chance,

          my ex was deeply “hurt” when I mentioned prenup and he wanted to put a case there that I will pay him alimony in case we divorce. My girlfriend is in the middle of divorce where she had the money and properties before she was married and her cheating husband tries to take half of it, leave her the kids and move in with his new girlfriend. Pretty sweet deal.

        4. Chance

          @CaliforniaGirl:  that’s ridiculous.

    4. 18.4
      Rebecca

      I wonder how this plays into the income thing:  Most of my friends are college educated and started life with solidly middle-class incomes.  But in almost every case, when they coupled up and had kids, it was the wife who cut short her hours to be home when the kids got out of school and it was the wife who prioritized “flexibility” over salary when selecting a job.  The fathers generally prioritized being able to support the family over other interests, like flexibility or even enjoying their work.  The childless couples are still more or less financial equals, but the parents are very much not, if you think of them as individuals rather than as a team.  That’s just the thing, though, isn’t it?  You marry to form a partnership.  The primary-income spouse isn’t being abusive or uncommitted by expecting the primary-caregiver spouse to be the one to skip out of work and pick up the sick child from school and the primary-caregiver spouse isn’t being abusive or entitled when spending the family’s money.  They’re in this together and this is the division of responsibility that they agreed was best for their particular situation.

      [Generic “you” follows – I’m not responding to any particular writers here.]  If you’re unwilling to marry anyone without a trust fund because you don’t want to risk contributing more to the joint bank account than you claim from it, then I won’t define the relationship you’re looking for as a real partnership and you won’t define me as being realistic.  If you can find a spouse who willingly checks that box for you, more power to you.

  19. 19
    KK

    Stacy2,

    Sigh… You’re simply not rational. The FACT remains that wealthier men are 30 – 40% more likely to engage in extramarital affairs. I’m not sure how me simply stating a fact is so offensive. For a highly educated person, hell, for anyone with common sense that statement can be broken down pretty easily.

    Let’s try:

    1) Not ALL wealthy men are cheaters

    2) Wealthy men are MORE LIKELY to cheat

    Do with that what you will. I’m not making a personal judgement against anyone. I’m relaying the facts. I didn’t take the time to find a study worthy of your attention. I just googled and posted the first thing that popped up.

    The majority of your comments/ responses directed towards me have been rude. If you don’t think so, look back through your comments. When you say I can’t understand simple math or that I don’t know the difference between wealth and affluence, you’re attempting to insult my intelligence. So, when I respond with the fact that you’re not rational, I’m not worried it will hurt your feelings and also because you aren’t rational. You don’t try to understand where anyone else is coming from if they don’t agree with you 100%. The gold digger comment was because of your horrible attitude. Anyone who says I will only get involved with someone if he makes above x amount is a gold digger, in my opinion, regardless of what you bring to the table and when you make comments about refusing to “date down”, regarding a man’s income, well Stacy, you come across as bad if not worse than some of the male commenters on here that you find so offensive. That’s all. And then your classic “look within yourself to see…” line. Stacy, grow up. You do not come across as the highly intelligent, successful woman you claim to be. Sorry.

    1. 19.1
      Adreana

      “Anyone who says I will only get involved with someone if he makes above x amount is a gold digger, in my opinion”.

      A gold digger is someone who gets into a relationship simply because the man has money, she neither loves nor cares about him and she can’t take care of herself…

      Stacey has made something of herself and she has earned the right to be with her equal.  It’s obvious she wants someone with good character, someone she could have a loving relationship with…this doesn’t sound like a goldigger to me.

      Any man  who says I will only get involved with a woman  if they are a 9 or a 10 in attractiveness is shallow and just looking for sex in my opinion.

      See what I did there? None of us are getting “angry” about men’s requirements. The difference is that  MOST of the guys that make those statements aren’t attractive themselves.

       

      1. 19.1.1
        KK

        “Stacey has made something of herself and she has earned the right to be with her equal”.

        Wrong. She has only earned the right to live a lifestyle that she can afford. She hasn’t “earned the right” to a certain type of man. Just like you would probably be opposed to any man who said he had “the right” to be with you for whatever reason.

        I have friends similar to Stacy in some ways. They get infuriated when men of their caliber (in their mind) choose to get serious with a real estate agent or nurse or school teacher or secretary because they feel they “deserve” his attention because they have achieved some amount of professional success. Those two don’t equate no matter how much people persist that they should.

        1. Runner girl

          Just a side note, but would everyone PLEASE stop lumping teachers into the uneducated and average to low average earing bracket?? I AM a teacher, I have 3 degrees (my highest is an MA, but public school and most other teachers cannot be in this profession without a BA and 2 additional years of study to earn a credential), and I make over 6 figures! Sorry if I am sounding annoyed, but I spent 9 years in college and have been in my career for 20 years, and by no means am I uneducated and a low wage earner! I wish people would get their facts straight before making such false implications. Thank you.

        2. Runner girl

          Oh, and one more thing (KK) – my future mother-in-law is a real estate agent and makes significantly over 6 figures, and a close friend is a nurse who also clears 6 figures and makes nearly as much as an attorney I know. I think it would be best to please leave specific professions out of the discussion, as no one truly knows how much others in different career fields make, especially depending upon their years of experience in their fields and in what part of the country they are from. Much appreciated!

        3. KK

          Runner girl,

          My comment wasn’t meant to be offensive. The occupations I lumped together include those that require an education and those that don’t because I was attempting to show the hypocrisy of others. Women who get upset because men choose to date women in lesser careers (in their minds) than themselves; meaning a CFO or VP, earning over $200k a year. I’m well aware you have to have an education to become a teacher or a nurse. I’m well aware you have the potential to make good money as a real estate agent, but it doesn’t require a degree.  The point is why does it matter? Why would someone feel slighted over that?

        4. Not Stacy/Troll

          Runner girl, no one said teachers were uneducated or low class.

        5. KK

          By the way, my personal opinion is that teaching is an excellent career choice, especially for those that want to have families. I can’t think of any other profession where you have the same schedule and holidays as your children, allowing you to be home with them when they are out of school and off in the summer. I know lots of wonderful people who teach and are passionate about making a positive difference in their students’ lives. My mom was in education and she loved it.

        6. Jordan

          Runner girl, I think it really depends on where you live and the grades you are teaching. From teachingdegree.org, the only ones making close to 6 figures are professors. The annual mean wage in the US for teachers in preschool – high school is between 30k-60k. One of my parents was a teacher, retired, and she made no where near 6 figures in a public high school in the suburbs.

      2. 19.1.2
        Maggie

        Any man  who says I will only get involved with a woman  if they are a 9 or a 10 in attractiveness is shallow and just looking for sex in my opinion.

        People get angry about this sentiment all the time.   There have several threads here over the years here where women have fumed and vented about this male entitlement.  It is just not the topic here this time.

        1. Adreana

          I think I might have stumbled on one of those threads. From what  I perceived, no one was angry at for men wanting attractive women. This is a no brainer.   However, I think it’s highly hypocritical for an average man to think he’s entitled to a very attractive women, and then rant about being rejected and calling all women “shallow”.

          The difference here is that the women who prefer a wealthy man haven’t whined about being rejected by them , and  they actually established themselves financially…

          If they’re not hurting anyone and it’s working for them, then why not? Money isn’t the root of evil as some would lead us to believe…

           

           

        2. Chance

          I haven’t really noticed any men complaining  about women’s preferences for affluent men here.  When men do complain about this type of thing, it’s the hypocrisy that bothers them as well – not the preference.

        3. KK

          Chance,

          That is partially the point I attempted to make. Some women will never admit to their own hypocrisy and double standards. As a woman, it really is frustrating to have female friends that think this way. The amount of complaining and upset over some guy that prefers someone hotter, thinner, sexier, whatever… without acknowledging they do the same thing over financial status even when it’s pointed out. Adreana’s comment is a perfect example.

      3. 19.1.3
        Adreana

        We’ll agree to disagree.

        KK, we just have different values and preferences. You know what botheres me about some of my female friends? Convincing themselves that a man’s education/salary/religion doesn’t matter,,, marrying the guy, realizing IT DOES matter, then complain to their girlfriends about how hard it is living with him, and we should be thankful for being single….

        We on the other are honest with ourselves with our preferences, and we’re upfront about it when it comes to dating…there will be no “surprises” for the man later on where he tells his buddies, ” well, I thought she didn’t care about these things”!

        We realize the “high” feelings of love alone aren’t enough to sustain a long-term relationship, and just because a person is “nice” “it doesn’t necessarily  mean they’ll be a good boyfriend/husband/father….

        If you truly want an “average Joe” and you’re happy with that then that’s great! But please understand we are DIFFERENT and we want DIFFERENT things. This is our lives we’re talking about for damn’s sake! The person you spend the rest of your life with has to be specifically great for YOU! Get it?

        You are cool living a humble but comfortable life, and I’m not. If that makes me a “gold digger” than so be it! 🙂

         

         

      4. 19.1.4
        Adreana

        Runner girl,

        I think teaching is a great profession.

        KK has a tendency to go into extremes when she wants to “prove her point” against us “radical feminists”. She tries so hard to come across as “humble”, but can’t stand those that want more… “HOW DARE these career-oriented women want an ambitious, above average man???!!!!”

        When people act this way I question their authenticity. If she’s truly happy with her choices she wouldn’t have reacted the way she did..( calling Stacy a gold digger or insinuating we don’t about character).

        My question is kk, what’s in it for you?

        Maybe you aren’t happy with average Joe’s, and those of us that want more are a constant reminder of what you could have, but won’t because you’re so hell-bent on appearing saintly and humble….

         

         

        1. KK

          Adreana,

          I think the better question is why have my comments struck such a nerve with you? (That’s rhetorical, btw).

          Your portrayal of me is incorrect. You’re so desperately grasping at straws to paint me in a bad light, because I dared to disagree with you. Aren’t we all allowed to have opinions or is it only you and those who agree with you? If I were to go back through this thread and re-read every comment of yours, how many would I find where you specifically call people out on what they’re saying about Stacy; and then they reply stating they didn’t even mention her (because they didn’t). Odd, no? You seem to have a whole thing going on in your head that isn’t happening. The examples I gave were real life. I wasn’t exaggerating to make a point. Continue your false dialogue with yourself in your head if it suits you. That’s all I have left to say to you. Good luck.

        2. Adreana

          Did you insinuate she was a gold digger or not? Did you imply we care about a man’s wallet at the expense of his character or not? You are free to express your opinions , but when you attempt to insult a person’s character ( whether directly or indireclty) expect negative feedback…

          It “struck a nerve” with me  because there are many women like you who go out of their way to shame women who make different choices… As an example, I personally don’t agree with the idea of being a stay at home mom, but you won’t see me telling housewives they are “wrong” , or implying  they not as “smart” as career women.  They. are. just. different and they want different lifestyles.

          Take care .)

           

           

           

        3. Runner girl

          Thank you to all who validated my profession. I work hard and love what I do, and never went into it for the money, although I am happy/satisfied with my education and income. Yes, KK, the schedule rocks, and I am glad that you see it as an excellent career choice, as well as Adreana, too. I just have seen several comments (and also on other EMK threads as well) remarking about teachers generally not being considered as desirable people to date, due to their income level. The profession has changed a lot in the past 2 decades since I have entered it, and educators can make a great living, there is a lot of potential/opportunity for advancement, we have a fabulous schedule, and it can be rewarding in many ways. I admit that I did feel offended that it appeared as if it were not a profession that women would desire a partner to have, so that is why I weighed in. I wanted to dispel that myth, and hope that others who did not previously see its value can see it, and know that dating a teacher has a ton of perks (14 weeks off a year – I may work some of it and it is not paid time off, but it allows me to own my own home in a nice neighborhood, and support my 3 kids on my income alone, and in a state known to be on the expensive side, CA, and enjoy a lot of time with my kids). So, sorry to get off the topic here. Thank you again to those who understand where I am coming from, and offers their kind comments. 🙂 As for the main core issue here of dating within one’s education level, income level, and class, I think to each their own. We all have reasons why we choose who we choose, so as long as people are happy, and have a loving and satisfying relationship, I feel that is all that matters. Best wishes to everyone on here in finding what they desire, and thank you EMK as always for your insightful and informative blogs.

    2. 19.2
      Stacy2

      This will be the last time I am responding to you in this thread.

      Sigh… You’re simply not rational. The FACT remains that wealthier men are 30 – 40% more likely to engage in extramarital affairs

      This fact is interesting but not relevant. You brought it up solely to support your argument that “average Joes” make better husbands, and that I will “regret” passing them by. Your words. Now, what if I told you another FACT, that is that people with lower income are 3x more likely to experience domestic violence? Hmmm. So now we got “rich” guys who are 30% more likely to cheat vs. “poor” guys who are 3x as likely to beat you up. And these useful stats are supposed to guide our romantic decision making how exactly? The truth is, both are irrelevant. Obviously nobody is proclaiming that we want to compromise on character in order to get the wallet. That is another thing that YOU insinuated.

      You simply want to claim your moral high ground by painting me and any woman here who wants to date an equal as shallow gold diggers, as opposed to your righteous frugal, non-materialistic self.

      Anyone who says I will only get involved with someone if he makes above x amount is a gold digger, in my opinion,

      You are entitled to have your opinions, but the actual definition of this term is the following:

      http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gold–digger

      A woman who associates with or marries a man chiefly for material gain

      So, you are twisting the commonly accepted meaning of this derogatory term in order to help you gain your moral high ground.

      So, the question you ought to ask yourself remains – why does a successful woman who wants to date her equal bother you so much? I didn’t hear you criticizing other preferences that people have, age, race, looks, weight, etc. It’s this particular one that bothers you to such extent. Think about it.  You can respond to this, because I know people like you just have to have the last word, I promise I won’t.

      Cheers.

       

       

      1. 19.2.1
        KK

        My comments about average guys did not mean they were “low income”.

        Your definition of gold digger:

        “A woman who associates with or marries a man chiefly for material gain”.

        In one of your comments you said you would ONLY marry a man who made as much or more than you because you want to live in an affluent area and be able to afford private school, etc. Does that sound even a little like “A woman who associates with or marries a man chiefly for material gain”?

        “You simply want to claim your moral high ground by painting me and any woman here who wants to date an equal as shallow gold diggers, as opposed to your righteous frugal, non-materialistic self”.

        I never claimed to be any of those things. I believe I said I thought I was LESS materialistic than you; which isn’t a difficult feat. The comments I made about frugality was in reference to families that sacrifice materially in order to provide their children with the luxury of a stay at home mom. I wasn’t talking about my personal situation; past or present.

        “So, the question you ought to ask yourself remains – why does a successful woman who wants to date her equal bother you so much? I didn’t hear you criticizing other preferences that people have, age, race, looks, weight, etc.”

        You have no idea what does or doesn’t bother me. I’ve made comments on the topic at hand. I don’t really care what your preferences are. What I find fascinating is that you cannot for the life of you see the disconnect between what you feel entitled to and what is more realistically available to you. This seems to be a common theme for you on this post as well as others. Just because I’m the only one who brought it up this time around doesn’t negate the fact it’s there.

        1. Things that make you go ARRRRG!!!

          where was it ever stated that Stacy is struggling with availability of men in upper middle income brackets? She’s not complaining nor did she say she feels ENTITLED. She said she PREFERS. There is a difference. Seriously did i miss some comments from Stacy?

          KK I really am a nice person but your constant needling on this issue is getting really irritatating. Why is it so important to you to convince Stacy and any other woman here who doesn’t choose YOUR life that they are wrong and you are right?

          if you want to live in Nebraska, marry an average Joe, be a stay at home mom who moonlights as a belly dancer, I would wish you nothing but happiness with zero judgement. It’s your life and you deserve to live it in any (legal) way that makes you happy. Too bad you can’t give others the same courtesy.

          You refuse to consider others positions, you toss out passive aggressive insults and then when you get it back you sit back and cry that everyone is just being so rude to you.

          Go ahead insult me, call me names, tell me I’m being a vicious feminazi (even though you have no idea whether I actually identify as a feminist or not) All we’ve established here is that you can’t stand to see anyone make choices that don’t align with your particular values. That’s cool if that’s how you want to live but it’s going to cause you a lot of unnecessary frustration. Life is too damn short.

           

  20. 20
    Adreana

    Are really concerned about those wealthy men being advantage of, or do you feel angry about being excluded?

    What if those wealthy men actually like “goldiggers” of our type, huh? ( Like the example I gave about my girlfriend). If this is a contest on who’s more “more humble” or less materialistic, then you can go ahead and take the title. I’d much rather be a happy, thriving person…

    Stacey is correct about domestic violence and child abuse correlating with lower wages( I can pull up my sociology textbook to link studies but you seem to have made up your mind).

    As I said before,  we can’t generalize but we’re allowed to have our preferences and so do you. Just as the average Joe wants to find love, so does the man who makes a very good living. If they prefer to be with a secretary as you say then that is their choice and I wish them well….but it doesn’t make me “angry” though , it just gives me that extra boost of confidence like you wouldn’t believe! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Believe in yourselves people!

     

     

    1. 20.1
      KK

      Oh boy… My ex is a millionaire, so I can assure you I don’t feel excluded. I can also assure you I think there are more important things to consider than the size of a man’s wallet when considering marriage.

      “Stacey is correct about domestic violence and child abuse correlating with lower wages( I can pull up my sociology textbook to link studies but you seem to have made up your mind)”.

      Where exactly did I disagree with Stacy’s comment? I didn’t because I do, in fact agree. I only made a distinction between an average man and a poor man. Average Joe means average. If you want to twist that into uneducated, unemployed mouth breather that’s on you.

      I haven’t done anything wrong by commenting or responding to Stacy’s comments. I feel she speaks from a position of entitlement. You disagree. Fine. I wasn’t talking to you. I won’t bother responding to the the other commenters with the made up names. It’s obvious they are either trolls or ol Stacy put in a different user name.

      Speaking of happiness, I feel happier when I don’t have expectations of others. That way I’m always grateful for other’s efforts. If I were to go around with an attitude of entitlement, then how grateful would I truly be when I receive what I already deserve in the first place? Just something to ponder.

    1. 21.1
      Not Stacy/Troll

      Interesting. I’m curious how chosing to have your baby at home with a qualified mdiwife or CNM is about entitlement. I could write a tome on misconceptions about home birth and how it’s actually hospital birth that is unnatural and set up to make it easier on doctors and insurance companies not the laboring mother, but I won’t.

      I think one other bullet we can add to the female entitlement list: too many women today feel entitled to tell other women how to live their lives.

      1. 21.1.1
        KK

        I think the gist is unless you are 100% sure you won’t have any complications, you’re taking an unnecessary risk with your baby’s life.

        Midwifery is defined as the management of normal pregnancy, childbirth and post-partum care by a licensed midwife. Midwives tend to have a high level of success with childbirth simply because they are only supposed to handle cases involving uncomplicated, low risk pregnancies and labor and delivery.A midwive should never handle a high risk pregnancy or a labor and delivery that has complications.  A midwife does not have the training or experience to handle complications that often arise in high risk pregnancies, and he/she cannot perform a cesarean section if an emergency arises during labor and delivery. Midwives often discourage cesarean sections for mothers who encounter difficulties during labor and delivery, such as persistent, non-reassuring fetal heart strips.  This is a mistake, as a qualified obstetrician should make the determation whether a cesarean section is indicated.

        1. Not Stacy/Troll

          Most midwives don’t. Most will not even take on high risk pregnancy and most have hospital priviledges to transfer or admit a patient should anything go wrong at any time (or work with a doctor who does).

          On the other hand, anyone working in medicine or health care is aware of an all too common position that too many C sections being done today are not necessary for the mother and baby (but they sure are convenient for the doctors). You may be suprised at how many OBs and nurses agree that c sections have become too commonplace.

          Once again though…if she doesn’t want to have her baby at home? Then don’t. She shouldn’t think she’s entitled to tell other women they should make the same choice.

  21. 22
    Adreana

    “too many women today feel entitled to tell other women how to live their lives”.

    At first I thought she was one of those mgtow guys since she always has something negative to say about women….

    KK, frankly,  it’s none of your business what our preferences are. But since you feel so strongly about this, instruct your sister, daughter and loved ones to marry an a avarage Joe.

     

    1. 22.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      For what it’s worth, I’m with KK. The issue is merely one of of perspective:

      Most men are 5’s who want to date 8’s.
      Most women are 5’s who want to date 8’s.

      Each side complains about how unfair and skewed dating is – men complain that they deserve hot women because that’s what they’re attracted to. Women complain that they deserve rich, educated men. Neither settle. Both yell and fail to see their own hypocrisy, which is that no one “deserves” anything. You get what you can get. If you never get it, you overplayed your hand.

      1. 22.1.1
        KK

        Thank you.

      2. 22.1.2
        Not Stacy/Troll

        No one’s debating that the narrower your target the more likely you are to miss it. But this is a free county. 5s who want to date 8s and can’t have every right to make that choice for themselves. Why get all bent out of shape about the choices of people you don’t even know or care about????

        That’s the issue.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          It’s easy to get bent out of shape when someone doesn’t listen, hear, or validate your very valid point. It’s easy to get bent out of shape when you get personally attacked and vilified for pointing out something true that others don’t want to acknowledge. I try hard not to get bent out of shape when people attack me – it says FAR more about them than it does me – and yet it’s not easy. KK isn’t part of this comments section to have her words twisted into caricatures, but that’s exactly what happened. I’ve stayed out of it, but I can tell you that anyone who changes her email address frequently (this time to hahaha@ha.com) and calls herself “Troll” is probably not the type of person one wants to engage in a fair, even-tempered discussion in an online comments section. With that, I wish you the best of luck – getting bent out of shape at others’ positions and simultaneously judging others for getting bent out of shape when you attack them.

        2. Not Stacy/Troll

          She claimed I was a troll or pretending to be Stacy. It was a joke.

          Since you don’t use disqus or a service that allows you to create and use the same account each time, how exactly do you differentiate between a poster with an unpopular opinion and a troll?

          No problem. I won’t be posting here in the future.

        3. Evan Marc Katz

          I don’t care if you have an unpopular opinion. What I care is that my readers get treated with respect. I’ve been doing this for 13 years. The ONLY people I censor are people who attack other commenters personally. I’m probably a little harder on men who attack women than vice versa. But, for the most part, anything that any stranger wants to write goes through here without comment – as long as they stay on topic.

          Similarly, I tolerate tons of dissent personally and post it. They are not trolls. It’s not until someone busts out something about me being a misogynist (not true), mangina (not true), asshole (not true), or attacks on me, my wife or my marriage that they get deleted.

          To be very clear:

          a) I am not banning you.
          b) I have not read every word you’ve written. In other words, I didn’t get that your Troll username was a “joke.”
          c) I don’t know why you change email addresses all the time. Longtime readers have been using the same email for nearly a decade here with no incident and without using Disqus.
          d) You can disagree with me (or KK) all you want; as long as I don’t have to step in and moderate because the discussion has veered into attack territory. That’s the only reason I just spoke up and made the observation I did. I think you’re twisting KK’s position because you don’t agree with her; that’s not fair fighting.

          Click here to see more examples of the way many argue online.

  22. 23
    Adreana

    I get what you’re saying Evan. I knew some women who worked as waitresses /retail clerks who rejected men unless they were in med school or accountants. The disconnect is that the women here aren’t wanting something they haven’t worked on themselves.. In other words, we are aren’t holding men to standards we ourselves can’t keep.

    That doesn’t mean the professional, above average men owe me anything…I just prefer to be with that type ( as long as we have a great connection emotionally and physically).

    All of the men I dated in the past were “average Joe’s” ,so you could say it was my “comfort zone” at the time. I’m very open to making changes and seeing what happens.

  23. 24
    Karmic Equation

    Hi Adreana and Stacy2,

    I like flipping the script.

    Let’s take this hypothetical:

    The attractive, rich-as-you, educated-as-you men that you want to date have the equivalent criteria for relationships as you. They’ve got it in their heads that women who makesclose to or as much as he does, are all witchy bitches (not saying either of you are that, btw, this is just the female equivalent of the “low-earning, uneducated” men that you don’t want to be stuck with in a relationship). Because every single high-income woman he’s dated turned into witchy bitches eventually. So now he’s decided he ONLY wants to date someone in a more nurturing, lower paying, job because he’s sick of dating high-earning, high-powered, women who make over $75k.

     

    Aren’t you both MORE than just what you earn? More than just your accomplishments? Shouldn’t these men date you to find out the REAL you and not dismiss you out of hand?

    And the reality is that once a relationship begins, and both people truly care about each other, you’ll find many things to talk about. Gossiping about your neighbors. Talking about your families. Discussing how your single friends are kind of clueless about dating. Or about your married friends who seem to fight all the time, and think that’s what “passion” is about. Or where you’re going to go for dinner. Or how you both need to watch what you’re eating because both of you have gotten into bad eating habits. What’s happening at work that’s stressing you out.

    If you’re the high-level CFO stressed about a complex finance issue, if he asks about what’s bothering you at work, that’s already awesome. He cares. That’s what should matter to you. And if you want him to understand you, then it will be on you to explain the issue to him in laymen terms. I’m sure you gals do that when you’re explaining your work probs to your girlfriends or family that are not in the same field. Why is it such a burden to then explain it to your S.O.?

    As long as both people CARE about each other…and care about talking to each other…there will be no lack of conversational material. And you don’t need to talk about Proust to make that connection.

    Maybe the uneducated “average joe’s” you dated were simply bad choices on your part. Similar to the high-earning witchy-bitches of those hypothetical rich-as-you, educated-as-you men I used as examples.

    Date gainfully employed men that you find intelligent and cute and treat you well. And if the connection is real, you’ll both figure out a way to make it work over the long haul.

    As a high-earner myself, that’s the way I’ve always done it. If the relationship didn’t work out, it was because of something else other than different levels of income or education that caused us to break up.

  24. 25
    Adreana

    Hi Karmic,

    I’m looking for a romantic partner not a business partner. The last thing I want is to discuss work with my guy.  The above average, professional guy isn’t at all appealing to me if he can’t be playful, humorous, or passionate. I rarely discuss work with my friends either ( I’m usually the “silly” one cracking jokes). But I get your point about caring for one another- as long as you have a connection you will find something interesting to talk about….

    I have a strong need for growth and self-improvement. What turned me off about some of the men I dated, is that they get too comfortable and  they stop pushing themselves…( just too laid-back and “go with the flow”  for my taste).  I can see now how I unconsciously pushed away the ambitious, confident , driven types out ( maybe I was intimidated)…

    Thanks for the advice btw! .)  This is an example of disagreeing with someone while remaining respectful in the process.

  25. 26
    Adrian

    Hi Stacy, Stacy 2, and Andrean,

     

    If I may, I would like your honest opinions on something. But I see that this post got… ummm… well… complicated; so I will understand if none of you do not wish to answer, or if you feel that I may have an agenda with my question, and so therefore wish not to answer.

     

    I am curious, how do you know how much a guy makes?

     

    Running Girls’s post triggered this question. Because as she stated, when I think teacher, I don’t think 6 figures.  Or am I mistaken and you 3 on average do not respond to a teachers, cops, firemen, etc if they tried to court you?

     

    Again, I am asking out of curiosity, not to pin you into some kind of moral trap. My sincere reason for asking is because I don’t like to discuss my job or what I do until after a few dates. And I say this as someone who does make 6 figures, and who has just moved to a new state for a higher position, and a big fancy office.

     

    The reason why I don’t like telling women my job is because about a year ago I learned the hard way (^_^). Well not on a date, I was at a party and I did not know anyone but the person I arrived with (I was the designated driver, and he was there to met some girl), sitting next to a older women I struck up a conversation, mostly small talk anyway, it was all going well until I asked what did she do and she got offended! This long story’s shortened version is that she felt that people in certain social circles don’t ask what you do to learn about your personality and use it as small talk, but to gauge how much you make and where you sit on the social economic scale.

     

    And I have to admit that she was somewhat right. I know it is idealistic, but I like the thought of a woman liking me for me and not because of my title or how much people in my field make on average.

     

    But after reading your posts and California girls, I am wondering if women will refuse to continue to see me if I don’t tell them what I do, even if I did do all the paying (o_O). I wonder if any of you would have met the male version of running girl, would you not give him a chance because “teachers” suppositely don’t bring in 6 figures?

     

    So do you all just ask guys what they make? Do you only date guys with fancy titled jobs? This sounds silly and cynical, but I am serious, do you want their credit scores? Or do you want their bank information?

     

    I only ask the latter two questions because I know a lot of people with fancy jobs and titles, huge houses, and hundred-thousand dollar boats, and cars,  yet they are barely afloat financially. So from your comments, I assume there has to be a more solid method you all have for verifying that a person actually has the money to give you the life you want and not just the job title.

     

    I was actually teased a lot by former co-workers, before I moved for being so frugal, owing a small apartment in an lower middle class neighborhood and driving a chevy spark (which I still have) instead of more expensive things; and back then I was making about $90,000 annually. But I saw too many people who made more than I did, with hirer positions in Huge debt (I found out from conversations they had with their wives, when I was not suppose to be listening. (^_^)

    …   …   …

    For what it is worth, I enjoyed your debate, I think both sides brought out great points and it has helped me better improve my thoughs on the issue.

    1. 26.1
      CaliforniaGirl

      I never ask guys what they make and usually only ask them what they do after they asked me first. If they are successful, they will tell you right away. You can assess their income based on what neighborhood they live in, their car, their appearance and places they take you out but also you never know.

      I dated a guy for some time and only knew that he owns  a business but had no idea how much he makes. He owned a condo, leased a car and paid for me most of the time. I really couldn’t guess his income.

      I went out with another guy but we ended up being just friends, I’ve known him for 10 months and I have no idea what he makes. I know where he works and what he does, so I can guess but his lifestyle is very cheap. He would take $4 from me for my happy hour beer and everything he owns is either old or cheap. He lives in the same tiny crappy apartment he lived 15 years ago after he graduated college. It doesn’t really matter how much he makes, I don’t want such a lifestyle and the guy doesn’t understand why no one wants to date him.

      1. 26.1.1
        Adreana

        “I don’t want such a lifestyle and the guy doesn’t understand why no one wants to date him”.

        I’ve had similar experiences and I wasn’t happy. I thought income didn’t matter at the time but I was gullible and didn’t know what I wanted. I’ve worked hard on myself  so I can be able to travel every now and then , visit cool places and do nice things….I want someone to share that with, not someone who cannot afford ( or doesn’t want) these things, and deprive myself in the process.

        So in addition to finding someone with similar values/a connection, I would say finding someone who wants a similar lifesttle is very important.

        1. Adreana

          *lifestyle

    2. 26.2
      SMC

      Adrian,

      I don’t care what a guy makes in terms of dollar amounts.  I care if he can support himself and still have a few bucks left over for fun.  I don’t mean those few bucks left over for fun with ME, I mean I care if a guy can support himself and still have fun because that’s how I’ve measured my own success.  I make a good living and have enough to pay all my bills (and the ridiculous taxes that go with them) with plenty left over for savings, investments and then still enough left over for the fun I want to have.  And that’s what my partner needs – enough funds for living but also for fun.  There’s not a concrete dollar amount in sight when I’m learning about a new man.  I think it’s vulgar and would never dream of asking a man anything about that.  There are all sorts of tiny signs that a smart person can pick up on rendering any discussions about income unnecessary.  If a man asked ME anything even remotely related to my income, that would be his last date with me.  I’m at the stage in my life when a man’s income is secondary to his treatment of me.  Some women will sacrifice good treatment for a “stable” income (never assume that his stability is guaranteed, I know from experience), but at this point, I won’t.  Been to that rodeo too many times.  My comment below about the “average Joe” will support my claim that I don’t care about a man’s bank account.  There are plenty of women like me, too – not ALL of us are crazy concerned about a man’s perceived “worth.”

    3. 26.3
      Rebecca

      I was wondering this, too, Adrian.  Of all the men I’ve dated, the only one whose income I knew was my husband.  I can’t imagine asking that on a date, and I don’t think I really care much, but it would seem weird to me if a guy weren’t willing to talk about his career.  It’s where we spend the majority of our waking hours, so if that’s a part of his life that’s taboo, I wouldn’t really feel like I could get to know him.  I do, however, care if a man can live within his means.  That’s less about being unwilling to spend money on a man and more about shared values:  someone who feels entitled to a flashy car he can’t afford will seem to me more overgrown boy than grown-up man.

  26. 27
    Adreana

    Hi Adrian,

    I’m probably not the best person to answer your question since only recently I started paying attention to finances/careers. But I would never ask a guy how much they make ( that’s just rude) and nor would I reveal how much I’m making. However, I do pay attention to what sorta job a guy has…if he has a good one and he’s the ambitious type  that wants to keep improving as I do ( well, that’s very attractive). If he gives me the impression he has a job that isn’t so great/doesn’t make much  and he gets too comfortable, then I realize there is no future with him. In other words, I might see him casually ( if I really like him)  but it would be hard for me to see a serious relationship or marriage with him.  Even if I fell head over heals for him and lets say we got serious, I would continue to live separately from him until we can both afford a nice place. But again, I probably wouldn’t allow myself to get serious with someone I see no future with.

    I don’t know if you should reveal your job or not..maybe by not revealing it at first, it would deter those that think of finances only. But I think it depends on what kind of woman your looking for…on the emk blog, most men confessed it doesn’t matter what the girl does for a living as long as she’s attractive. The career-oriented types  would at least want to know your going places and are working on yourself to get there.

    1. 27.1
      adrian

      Hi Andreana,

       

      Perhaps I should not have lumped you in with Stacy and Stacy2 for this question.

       

      But based off of what you just wrote, how would you deal with a situation like Running Girls, if you just went off of job title?

      1. 27.1.1
        Adreana

        “how would you deal with a situation like Running Girls, if you just went off of job title?”

        There are others  ways to know about these things without coming across as rude or interrogational. I’ve learned a few things from other women , but I’d rather not divulge them here. Only because some men might use this information to give the career-oriented , “high maintenance” types a false impression.

        The way I see it, this shouldn’t be much of a problem because there are plenty of women who would be happy with a comfortable, more down- to- earth lifestyle.

  27. 28
    Elizabeth

    I saw this news months ago in other blogs I read, but I swear no one mentioned the meta-trend reversal here of just how much spouse selection has become this search for The Person of primary physiological support. The book Bowling Alone illustrated how as recently as 1950 most persons had rich networks of social connectivity and especially extended family, but those bonds bare no fruit nowadays. Changing social dynamic indeed. It’s harder to find a spouse these days because it’s always harder to fill a position with so much riding on the line.

     

     

  28. 29
    SMC

    It’s very sad that the expression “average Joe” has such negative connotations.  I’m dating an “average Joe” which makes us both laugh because his name IS Joe.  He’s blue collar (construction), he makes less than I do, but what that man can do with his hands is beyond description (read into it what you will).  He didn’t finish high school, but he obtained his GED then moved on to vocational school.  He has an electrician’s license, a plumber’s license (and a really cute plumber’s crack to go with it) and a list of steady clients, most of whom live in the nearby gated hoity toity community, that would stretch from there to my metroplex and back.  Twice.  And he is friends with most of those monied people who love him and invite him (and me) to many of their swanky parties.  Can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone whisper (“How did HE get invited?”)  Because he’s a really cool, kind, decent dude, immensely likeable, totally lovable, and has wonderful, decent friends. And he’s good looking to boot.  Skills.  Did I mention his skills?  Yes I did.  I’ve often teased him about how he could go out and build a house then come home and bake a cake. (He has done both.)  So you gals out there who have your “standards,” well, you can have your impressive suits with high salaries but with the soft, white hands that don’t know how to fix a leaky faucet, install a double-plug outlet or help a dog birth her pups.  Give me the “average Joe” ANY day.  BTW, he wears camouflage when we go hunting, and he’s bought me a set as well.  Go ahead all you women who have to have your equals in the salary department.  I don’t.  I’m a city gal, I make upper 5 figures and have recovered from two husbands who nearly put me into bankruptcy.  Never again will I commingle funds, but I’ll go for the “average Joe” all day long because THOSE are the real men, as far as I’m concerned.  He’s clean (no smoking, chewing, or scratching), keeps a clean house, has sufficient income to both support himself and pay for most of our dates, has a shock of gorgeous white hair and dances better than anyone I’ve ever danced with before.  He lets me pay occasionally, but I know it bothers him, so I try to pay in other ways, i.e. providing picnic lunches, cooking for him, etc.  We’ve now been together for just over a year, and sadly, I think the relationship is fading, but only from a communication standpoint, not because of his social or financial status.

    You others go for the high-dollar guys.  I’ll take the good, kind, decent, handy”average Joe” any day.

    1. 29.1
      SMC

      BTW, those two husbands that ran our finances into the ground?  One was a lawyer, the other owned a trucking company.  Go figure.

  29. 30
    Caroline

    I make a pauper’s wage compared to most who post in here. I’m not sure i measure success by the dollar though. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s impressive what many have accomplished and am happy for them:)

    i remember a time when I could only afford $10 worth of a prescription for my very sick son; so I am grateful and proud of everything I’ve accomplished since I divorced. Happy adult children who are moving toward their personal goals and finally being in a place where I love myself and am feeling loved in return by a man who I enjoy time with is success in my book.

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