Men Are Honest. You’re Just Not Listening.
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I take my job as your personal trainer for love very seriously.
I try to honor and respect every woman who reads my emails and offer advice that is honest but not too brutal.
But I have to admit, from time to time, I get an email that makes me roll my eyes.
The most recent one was as mercifully short as it was inane. All it said was this:
“What does it mean when a man says he doesn’t want a relationship with you?”
To the best of my knowledge, this email was not a joke, but it had me thinking about other obvious questions that had only one possible answer.
•“What does she mean when she says she’s not at all attracted to me?”
•“What does she mean when she says she’s been faking her orgasms with me?”
•“What does she mean when she says she’d rather jump out of a moving car than go out on another date with me?”
Now, to be fair, most women don’t give men such rude, point-blank answers.
What do you actually do instead?
You want to see where you stand with a man? Don’t pay attention to how hot your date was. Pay attention to how he handles himself in the next 24-48 hours.
You don’t return his calls in a timely fashion.
You date other men until you find one you like better.
You may go out with him again, but you’re not all that into it.
In short, to keep the peace and avoid conflict, you either do the slow fade (not calling him back immediately), or you continue to see him with reservations about your attraction and excitement.
Are you lying to him? Are you trying to hurt him? Are you a commitmentphobe who has no interest in marriage? Are you fickle and always looking for someone better?
I’m guessing the answer is no to all of the above.
Same with us. Except you have trouble seeing that.
Face it:
Men don’t have to say “I love you” to get you in bed.
Men don’t have to commit to you to get you in bed.
All men have to do to get you in bed is be cute, funny, tall, smart, and successful.
And if that’s the case, and we sleep with you based on attraction alone, regardless of whether we have actual FEELINGS for you, it tends to get a little dicey.
This is not me DEFENDING men; this is me, EXPLAINING men.
Listen, we’re just as shocked as you are when you sleep with us on a second date.
But, as you know, this doesn’t mean we want a relationship with you. It just means that we were having fun, we were tipsy, we took a chance, and we scored.
You want to see where you stand with a man? Don’t pay attention to how hot your date was. Pay attention to how he handles himself in the next 24-48 hours.
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139 Comments »Filed Under Communication, Dating, Letting Go
Michelle 1
I need to enlargen this, print it out, stick it in my fridge and read it everyday! I am so guilty of falling for my vision of what it might be instead of what it is, that I consistently have my heart broken. And at the end of the day, I know it is me to blame. Thank you Evan, for putting it in black and white.
Michelle 2
Siggghhh, exactly.
“It’s been fun knowing you, Dan, but I’m looking for a boyfriend, not a sexting buddy. Best of luck in the future.”
The problem is women don’t have the courage to do this. They don’t want to appear to be a bitch or ‘rock the boat’ where he gets pissed with this ‘attitude’ and walks away. It’s counterintuitive for us to do this. The reality is–this is the MOST EFFECTIVE way of handling these situations. It challenges the man to step up – or not. And leaves both of you to find someone where there’s mutual interest.
And once a woman gets the confidence and experience with doing this type of messaging, she can start out on the first date with this attitude–in a lighthearted, but ‘serious’ way so he knows exactly what it’s going to take to stay in her life, which again, counterintuitively, creates more attraction to her by him. From my experience, men LOVE it.
Sheba Wheeler 3
WOW. Brilliant! Sharing this with my friends right now on FB.
my honest answer 4
Evan, this is pure gold! I get ‘what does it mean’ questions all the time! And usually the answer is: it means they’re not that into you. I don’t know why we all look for hidden meanings when sometimes the meaning is so clear.
Liz 5
Michelle,
She can “start out on the first date with this attitude, so he knows exactly what it’s going to take to stay in her life?” I don’t think that’s what Evan is saying. I think he’d advise against projecting an “attitude.” Unless it’s one of pure positivity. That’s not to say a woman shouldn’t feel protective of herself and her feelings, but it shouldn’t be visible to the guy she’s on a date with. Even if she tries to convey it lightheartedly (which never works. Like how making “jokes” on a date about being the oldest single woman in your office doesn’t make one seem laidback, it makes one seem insecure).
Michelle 6
Liz #5, I couldn’t disagree more, and it’s about a confidence attitude, not a nasty attitude–and I mentioned confidence (and experience) in the sentence right before the one you quoted, sorry you missed my point. Please tell me one person who does not like confidence in another person–man or woman.
When I’m dating (and successfully by the way), I’m not protective of myself, I want to be open, loving and in my feminine energy–not closed off and protective and paranoid. And believe me, men pick up on our energy even when they think we are the best at ‘acting’ (and what man wants a woman who is not herself?)
What I do exhibit is a sense of humor about myself and life, an understanding and appreciation of men (and women) and a confidence that I know who I am (good stuff and not so good stuff) and I know what I want out of life–perfection is not one of them. I have standard little sayings I say to men which get my point across and always gets a laugh. Bottom line, it’s about me evaluating whether they might be a good partner for me and what it might take for them to put themselves in the best position to do that–NOT the other way around where I’m trying to tiptoe around and be who I think he wants me to be in the hopes he likes me. Once a woman can AUTHENTICALLY adopt this attitude, she will have men lining up to be her boyfriend.
JoC 7
It’s a hard life being a woman in the dating world.
One minute we’re told men like to take their time over decided about women, they don’t like making immeditate decisions about a girl in their life, women have to be patient and not too clingy to let a new encounter ‘breathe’ and give the man the space he needs to work out his feelings. So, when a man isn’t calling us we’re told, ‘just give him time, he’s probably genuinely busy’ and we’re told to wait and back off, or we’ll ‘scare him off’ and ruin what could have been a great relationship. Next, we’re being told, if a guy isn’t calling in the next 24-48 hours and acting interested in you, you should cut him off because guess what? If he’s not acting interested in you – he’s not interested in you! So on the one hand we’re being told a guy will let you know if he is interested and communicate that with you quickly and the other, saying men are slower creatures than women, they need time to process things and trying to ‘check in’ with them will be counter productive or cutting them off because they seem disinterested could be a mistake, because he was just seconds away from decided you were the woman of his dreams bla bla bla.
No wonder we struggle!
I can’t be bothered to worry over all of this ‘post date’ drama or what to do and what not to do after a date. I focus instead of how I am going into a date in the first place and what type of man I am choosing to date. If I want to be respected, and if I want to be treated like the ‘wife material’ I know I am, then first of all, I am not going to date men who are obviously players. I am also going to make sure that I am not coming across as ‘booty call’ material on the date either. That way, if I made a mistake with the man I chose and he IS secretly a player, he still won’t be able to use me as a booty call because I won’t let him. I will be respectful on the date, I will have appropriate ‘first date’ boundaries, I will be classy, I won’t be all over him and I definitely won’t sleep with him.
Men use women as ‘booty calls’ because the woman has subconsciously or consciously given him the impression that they CAN be used as booty calls. If you don’t want to have to go through all of this drama about whether this guy really likes you or is just using you post dating/sleeping with him, go back to the beginning and check you’re going into a date in the future with the right type of man (this means removing your blinkers about what type of man you are just HOPING he secretly is) and also that you are coming across as the type of woman that a man would not dream of mis-treating (are you wearing something sexy, but modest, or just down right trashy and are you being too ‘available’ to him and giving him the impression that he can just have you if he wants you? Are you being too ‘eager’ are you making it clear that you’re up for sex?). Don’t give him even the slightest reason to assume you can be used – because, like Evan says, if a man thinks he can get away with something – he will. Obviously, I don’t think I have to state that sleeping with a guy on the first date will nearly always separate you from the women he will respect and treat well and the women he knows he can use for sex later on.
Lori Allen 8
Oh how funny well my first love was a “Dan” but after deciding to go our separate ways after 8 years of a serious relationship. I was in a strange spiral of short term romance and some booty call relationships for the past 5 years. Now after seeing the light again as to what I want in my love life for the future, I just said pretty much those lines Evan had suggested to a “Reid,” “Michael,” and a “James” in the past 6 months. 2/3 disappeared but one just wants to keep hanging on, and now I am interested in someone else. It feels SO great to regain the power and know what fulfills you best in a relationship when one side pulls away. They do not want YOU, so WHY stick around for THEM?
Jess 9
I just had my 5th date in 2.5 weeks with a new guy last night, and we slept together for the first time. I’m trying not to worry about whether or not he’ll follow up (we already texted each other last night after I got home). There’s nothing I can do to control what he does or doesn’t do from here on out. If he is the man I hope he is, he’ll follow through. If not, he’s not the one for me. This has been the hardest lesson I’ve had to learn as a late bloomer to the dating game. But if you don’t risk, there’s no reward.
Dagaz 10
@JoC, #7 – very good point, indeed)))
or it’s indefference, or it’s a “time needed”, both are with absolutely the same symptoms.
doctor, what’d you say here?..
IMHO, if man truly is interested, he won’t take so much time to catch up with his extra sensitive feelings, like 19-century timid aristocratic miss, really.
instead, he will be polite (calling you next day), caring (inviting to spend more time together) and just will be happy to be around you.
all those talks about “i need time” is not more than an excuse. or game-playing.
cest la vie.
Evan Marc Katz 11
@Jess – there is something you could have done. You could have not slept with him until there was a commitment. If he steps up, you get your reward. If he doesn’t, there was no risk.
Marla 12
the fact that he REALLY LIKES you does not mean he wants a relationship with you, right Evan?
Joe 13
@ JoC: what Evan is trying to tell you is that sleeping with a guy isn’t necessarily going to make him want to be your BF. He might, eventually, but not really because you slept with him. If you want to avoid the “post date drama” with a guy, don’t sleep with him.
Darci 14
This is so true. It’s actually true for everybody. I think people say what they mean and we just rationalize it into what we want them to mean.
It has taken me years, decades in fact, to learn that when my ex-husband said he really didn’t want children, he meant it (and it shows in his relationship with our kids). When my ex-lover told me that he really didn’t want to settle down, he meant it. It even works for women. My friends say what they mean and then either I try to warp into what I wish they meant or they back track and try to cover it up because it obviously hurt my feelings.
Actually, now that I’ve learned these lessons fewer and fewer people in my life back track. I’ve learned to look at reality and accept it, and then do something about it. When you go out with someone who isn’t acting the way you want them to act, find somebody else. Or you could just go get yourself a pedicure or a massage or an evening out with a great friend. Treat yourself well and listen to the truth. Anything else is just spinning your wheels.
Spiral 15
This is a very honest and blunt description of men, Evan. Thank you for posting this.
But I read this and felt sad and annoyed and disillusioned.
I can’t help thinking: WHY??
Why would a man do this? Why would a man want to “keep you INTERESTED in him without allowing you to fall in LOVE”?
Is it really just for sex? Is that all men truly want?
Or is it just that sex is what THIS man wants at THIS time with you, and in a different stage in his life and maybe even with a different woman, he would be perfect husband material?
chris60 16
This sounds like great advice Evan. Women should play the game and withhold sex. And an even better game is to be like a man and have sex then flick him off for being cheap. And an even better game is to get a man who values “independence”, sleep with him and then when he calls for a repeat hook up tell him: “Gee, you value independence and don’t want a serious relationship so I’ll leave you alone. Don’t call me. I’ll call you.” Do you want to know something, that gets him livid and chasing like a greyhound after a bunny as IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL. The men who push for sex with no intention of committing will wine and dine for ages and spin the lines and then dump you regardless. So the advice falls flat. Besides, men dislike princesses and grow tired of paying money for no return. And here’s a bit of a tip – it’s a power trip to pay for a woman and then think you have bought her!! Any man who flashes the wallet to impress may turn into Mr Possessive later. Let him pay but you owe him nothing in return. If he thinks he can buy you like an object then he’s not worth knowing. And if you think you can hook him into wanting you or owing you if you have sex then also be prepared for the cruel fact that neither of you really owe each other anything beyond mutual sexual gratification. If you like sex and also want a serous relationship to develop problems will evolve as you hurt yourself by withholding sex and run the risk of being seen as cheap if you love sex and have sex too soon. Sex is not intimacy – it’s just sex if it has no emotional connection involved. Intimacy takes time to develop, but sex is what acts as a catalyst to make a full relationship.
Relationship will or will not develop and it really does not matter if you have sex on the first date or wait six months. This does not ensure the relationship will continue. Both sexes can be insecure and confused when it comes to sex and intimacy, and there is no stock guide to say what will or will not cause a serious relationship to develop. Timing? Luck? Compatibility? Both having evolved to the point of being willing and capable of intimacy helps a lot. Stop making excuses and learn to set firm limits and boundaries and be open and honest about what you want, expect and need to avoid confusion or the melt down later.
Katherine Wakefield 17
At the end of the day if you sleep with a man, this is YOUR decision, so be sure that’s what you want to do! If he disappears you cant blame him, he didn’t promise you anything and you slept with each other by mutual agreement.
This is because women attach emotionally to a man with sex and read a lot more into it than a man does. But men and women think differently!
As Evan says its how the man behaves afterwards that will tell you if hes interested. They are your signs to understand him, by his actions, not that he slept with you.
Katarina Phang 18
As one of the few (or perhaps many?) women who could care less if a guy sticks around after sex, I can tell you that no drama is necessary before or after sex. It’s about relentless self-confidence that whatever happens, happens in your best interest. If he disappears, good…he saves you time and energy. If he sticks around, good…enjoy him while it lasts.
But what seems to always work with me is to focus on my own well-being. I may not know where he stands but as long as we share positive moments when we are together, I will stick around. Yet at the same time I know how to protect myself but not going all the way emotionally on him which means I keep my options open till he steps up to the plate.
No drama, just solid great fun time that enriches my life and contributes to my happiness. If he doesn’t find me worthy of his commitment after all this, I have at least used him to raise my Goddess vibration that will attract the right guy eventually. And it’s his loss.
And about booty call? It works both ways. It’s not an issue for me.
Karl R 19
Darci said: (#14)
“This is so true. It’s actually true for everybody. I think people say what they mean and we just rationalize it into what we want them to mean.”
It’s true for most people. You can find exceptions, but it’s a good general rule.
Listen to what people say. Listen to what they don’t say.
The classic example is the blind date who is described as having a “great personality.” Translated: she’s ugly. Because if she was attractive, that would have been explicitly stated.
Spiral asked: (#15)
“Why would a man do this? Why would a man want to ‘keep you INTERESTED in him without allowing you to fall in LOVE’?”
Do you have any friends who you like hanging out with, but you would never confide in them? WHY?? Why have them as semi-friends?
Probably because they’re fun to hang around with, buth they’re not trustworthy or reliable or understanding or discreet enough for you to confide in them.
Someone could be fun to date or fun in bed, but still be a lousy long-term partner (or especially a lousy long-term partner for me).
Spiral asked: (#15)
“Is it really just for sex? Is that all men truly want?
Or is it just that sex is what THIS man wants at THIS time with you, and in a different stage in his life and maybe even with a different woman, he would be perfect husband material?”
That’s reasonably accurate.
But if he’s not interested in being your husband, then he is not perfect husband material for you. Find someone else.
Jess said: (#9)
“But if you don’t risk, there’s no reward.”
Hopefully you’re not referring to the sex as the risk. If you see sex as being it’s own reward, go ahead and have sex. If you see it as a risk, then you should probably hold off.
If you’re talking about the risk of getting hurt, that’s something you’ll have to learn to embrace. In my perspective, if a relationship doesn’t work out, I run the risk of getting hurt. If it does work out, then I’ve guaranteed that I’ll eventually get hurt.
By accepting that it’s going to happen, it’s no longer a risk that I need to fear.
Alicia 20
Evan, I’m a sophomore in college and started my first serious relationship the beginning of freshman year. We slept together (both virgins) after being in a relationship for three to four months. It was literally an insane relationship and the Dean of Student Life even got involved! I don’t want to share all the details here, but although I’ve been slowly improving in the way I handle men and relationships (before, I had zero experience), but after reading your articles a few weeks ago, I’ve literally been reborn with a new mindset. I can more clearly see everything, the mistakes and the good parts. Thank you so much for your blog. It provides a very unique and well-informed perspective that I can’t seem to find from any other online source, which are nearly all written by women. Thanks a bunch!
JoC 21
Joe, I’m going to assume you didn’t read my reply properly, because if you had, you would have read my whole paragraph on why I would NOT sleep with a man on a date because I don’t want post date drama. How instead I choose to have self respect and boundaries on my dates so that men don’t think they can take advantage of me. You would have also read my ending line where I advise women not to sleep with a man because he will definitely see them as a booty call if they do. I was basically reiterating everything Even has advised about having boundaries and so thanks for the advice – but I think you were reading a completely different post to the one I made. I’m not really sure how you came to the conclusion that I was saying I sleep with men and I’m tired of post date drama lol – my entire reply was about how I AVOID having those problems by making different choices with men. If women choose to approach dates differently and keep their boundaries, they can avoid a lot of the problems the women Evan is talking about have. Luckily for me, I’m not one of those women! SO yeah…I totally agree with you – that’s why I wrote a whole reply about it lol.
Evan Marc Katz 22
Chris60 – Your sarcasm is charming. And your inference that I suggest playing games couldn’t be further from the truth. If you can sleep with a guy, enjoy yourself, and not have any emotional attachments to whether he calls you, go ahead. No judgment here. But if you get hurt after sleeping with a guy who doesn’t call, literally the ONLY way to protect yourself in the future is to clarify whether you’re exclusive BEFORE you have sex. It’s not a game. It’s not manipulative. It’s 100% authentic. It basically tells a man that – for you – sex is reserved for boyfriends, not for cute strangers who’ve put in a few hundred bucks over three dates. The guy then has two choices: bail because he just wants sex, or stick around to see if he wants to be your boyfriend. Either way, you have your answer.
moe 23
People are dumb. I dont ever sleep around UNLESS hes already my man. Why cant people close their legs and open their mind first?
After reading this article, I just feel sad for all those women who put up with men with these behaviors. Its childish.
Grow up please.
Ria 24
l think the major problem with this is that there is no woman on earth, who would, subconsciously or consciously, want to be downgraded or considered as *booty call* in a man´s mind, esp, if he is cute. (Show me one woman who does, and drinks are on me).
Instead, what happens, is that if a charming guy comes along, he makes us feel so good, that we belive, that there is a potential for more. Esp, if we have some problematic relationship history or just plain habbit of wearing rose tinted glasses in times, tht previously has lead into disaster, and we havent learned the lesson.
Tricky-tricky.
anna 25
Women should also listen (read) to Dr. Path Allen.
Strongly recommend her to understand why you should not sleep with a men unless you are in committed relationship. there is actual science with hormones and chemicals behind it.
Julie 26
When my ex said “I don’t want to marry you” I tried to reason with him that maybe he just needed more time, the next morning I woke up and ended it with him. From that point I promised I would take men at their words. A man means what he tells you, you can’t convince him otherwise.
Emma 27
Evan, or Karl (because you’re just as wise),
How do you word it to a guy that you want exclusivity/commitment first before sex without it coming off as an ultimatum?
And, do you bring up the subject casually or wait until you think sex is imminent?
Nicole 28
It’s weird how women think they can sneak their way into a relationship by sleeping with someone and then just passively hoping it makes him your boyfriend.
A man who wants to be your boyfriend won’t be ambiguous about it.
Sleeping with someone and then being scared to ask what it means is your answer. You can’t “rock” anything with someone who isn’t dating you, and being passive but making yourself available for sex isn’t a way to backdoor your way into having an actual boyfriend/relationship.
So you should be calm and easygoing and let someone who wants to be with you step to the plate, but you should not SLEEP with someone who hasn’t made it clear that he is committed to you and then think that it makes him your boyfriend b/c you don’t “pester” him.
It’s not contradictory to anything else that is on this site. Too many women think they can have sex with someone and then get shocked when it doesn’t turn into anything more.
I think the Millionaire Matchmaker is batty as hell but I saw two episodes of her show and saw a girl who broke the rule about not having sex, which Patty also says you should save for a committed, monogamous relationship. The girl was shocked and hurt that she slept with the man quickly and then when she asked about a relationship/where they were headed, he was like, “who knows?” I mean, really, why is that even surprising?
Keep your legs closed until you have a talk about it ladies. The man who doesn’t want to let you get away will let you know it and you don’t have to bug the hell out of him. Then you know it’s safe to drop your panties.
I think the woman above who slept with the man on date 5/2.5 weeks won’t get what she is after either. If it was safe to do it, you wouldn’t have to wonder after the fact.
Evan Marc Katz 29
Emma, please, pick up a copy of Why He Disappeared. Everything you want to know is in there. And there’s a money-back guarantee if you’re not satisfied.
Tina 30
Wow, this article is exactly for me, because as if it mostly describes my last relationship (or non-relationship).
Yes, he was not talking about love and marriage, but he was talking about taking you me to Paris and Vienna.
Yes, he was not talking about the names of our kids, but he was talking about how special i am to him and that he definitely wants to play a part in my life.
And yeah, he hasn’t promised me anything…except that he promised me that we will meet each other in future and we will be in serious relationship then…’You will see that I’m telling you the truth and we will be together’, said he to me many times.
So, many thanks for this advice Evan: CUTTING HIM OFF ENTIRELY.
Yes, I will. Finally.
Dave 31
The line: Men don’t want to hurt women, is probably as true as how women hate to hurt men. Great article!
Androgynous 32
Sprial, not all men are comfortable using women for sex so you don’t have to feel sad or disillusioned. A hell of a lot of men would just let it go if they find they were not interested in a woman, rather than take advantage of someone who is so obviously keen on them, and who would go the distance in the delusion of a possible relationship. These men have honor and if nothing else, they don’t want the messiness and drama and trauma of having to deal with a distraught woman who thought she was being led up the garden path. They don’t think the resulting fallout of their actions are worth the momentary transient pleasures of the flesh.
The men described here by Evan are players and thankfully, there are not too many of them out there.
Dagaz 33
allow me to add few comments regarding waiting for sex/no sex on first dates etc.
i’ve been married twice – in both cases those were men i had sex with on the first date basically (before we were meeting casually among friends), and i didn’t initiate at all their decisions to propose.
my worst relationship ever was one where i was waiting for sex for 5 month. when it’s finally happened, it became obvious that it’s dead-end relationship, add here the broken heart, heh))
chris60 mentioned correctly: it doesn’t matter, at all, for how the relationship will unfold in the future.
Dagaz 34
@Karl R, #19
bravo))
agree to every word.
as Bob Marley said:
“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
Evan Marc Katz 35
@Dagaz, a few questions:
You hopped into bed with two men who later became your ex-husbands.
How quickly after meeting them did you get married? How long did those marriages last? And what was the reason that they broke up? Thanks for sharing.
hespeler 36
Androdynous #32
Great post! I agree with every word.
Anonymous 37
Evan, I’m a lesbian and I can’t thank you enough for this article. I just got out of a 1 year relationship with a wonderful woman who for so many reasons (her first ever relationship, was not out yet, unhealed childhood wounds, etc) had all these walls up. It wasn’t a matter of me being a booty call, because we WERE genuinely in love and totally respect each other, but there were just these other things that had to be addressed and dealt with before we could move forward. Those signs that you mentioned were there that showed me how unimportant I was to her. She didn’t spend the Holidays with me, didn’t seem to mind if we didn’t speak everyday and making quality time for dates and intimacy just didn’t seem like a priority for her even after almost a year together. She would use the old ‘I was so busy at work’ excuse. So it’s possible that a person can be wonderful and love you, but still be unwilling or unable to really give the relationship what it needs to thrive. I was more than a booty call, but she was unwilling or unable to step up and I’m so glad I know this now. I knew she was committed to monogamy, but not committed to the relationship like a growing sacred union. She would do just enough work to keep me. There was a lot of push and pull. She had trust issues and tested me constantly. She could turn the most innocent interaction into some type of betrayal where she was the victim. She was so afraid to love fully, not just me, but anyone. I know she didn’t want to hurt me, but she wasn’t up for the next level and as hard as it was to have it end, I’m glad I know the truth. Because I had questions. I saw signs, there were clues. I asked her and she always swore I was important but those little things just weren’t there. Maybe our destiny is to be friends or maybe our time of knowing each other is over. I don’t know. She broke up with me in such an angry, unkind and demeaning way that we are not speaking and I am not chasing her. But thanks for validating the questions I was having throughout. My heart is devastated and broken, but I’m so glad I know.
Dagaz 38
@Evan :
i knew you will ask those questions))
ok.
first marriage was for 8+ years, wonderful child, my ex is a good guy, we just grew in very different directions, i didn’t want to hold both of us in stalling(though quite good marriage) and eventually broke up with him.
we’ve got married a bit over a year after our first date.
my second marriage was 3 years, my ex#2 simply couldn’t adapt himself living in US as an immigrant (it’s really hard, by the way), and i cut him loose)
we’ve got married 2 years after our first date (he was going through divorce first)
both my exes didn’t want to end marriages, it’s toward your possible question).
Amanda Morrison 39
Evan, I know you are married, but I’m in love with you for this blog! It succinctly resolved the nagging thoughts have had for the past 2 years with my long distance, work a holic, non-boyfriend. He made it sound so good… he’s too busy for a relationship ‘now’ and works so much he’s not dating anyone else, so I was his ‘fantasy girl’ and ‘the hottest he’d ever been with.’ I chose flattery over sanity and found myself in a constant emotional mess. Which was great because then I had to listen to him say ‘how could I want a relationship with someone so emotional. let’s just have fun because I’m so attracted to you.’
The good news is, I’m awake now. And this blog is a perfect reminder of why I won’t godown that road again. I don’t blame him or me. It was the most valuable learning experience for showing me what I want!
Thanks again for the great blog!!!
-Amanda
Evan Marc Katz 40
And without knowing anything about you, Dagaz, I would submit that if you didn’t get married so fast, you could have learned what kind of partner those men would be. The speed of rushing into bed and the speed of marriage is correlated to the inevitable divorce, in my opinion. You’d know better, but I always encourage for women to wait for exclusivity for sex and to wait at least two years before getting engaged…
Karl R 41
Emma said: (#27)
“How do you word it to a guy that you want exclusivity/commitment first before sex without it coming off as an ultimatum?”
I’ve never had to say it to a guy before.
However, when I was bringing up the topic with women, I’d usually wait until a conversation had gotten on the topic of sex for other reasons. As part of the conversation, I’d mention that I had slept around a bit when I was younger, but I’d decided that didn’t particularly appeal to me. Since then, I had decided to only have sex within exclusive relationships.
I would also mention that I’d been able to stick to that decision with almost every girlfriend since then. (Even though I didn’t place any additional stress on the word ”almost,” every woman picked up on it. This was part of my intent. It subtly implied that sex didn’t imply exclusivity … just in case she ended up being another exception. It also made me seem nonjudgmental of people who didn’t necessarily wait for exclusivity.)
Dagaz said: (#33)
“chris60 mentioned correctly: it doesn’t matter, at all, for how the relationship will unfold in the future.”
I would say that’s partially true. There are some exceptions, but in most cases, waiting for exclusivity neither increases nor deacreses the chance of the relationship succeeding in the long run.
On the other hand, it decreases the number of dates you have sex with.
1. A lot of men and women get more hurt/upset if they’re dumped by someone who they’ve had sex with. This way, they’re dumped before they have sex.
2. A lot of women (and some men) don’t like being used as a regular booty call. If someone was considering using you for sex, they’ll move on and find someone who doesn’t require exclusivity.
3. A lot of men and women get upset if their partner is having sex with multiple partners. They feel cheated on, even if there was no agreement of exclusivity. If you wait until there’s explicit exclusivity, you avoid this misunderstanding.
4. Some men and women assume that a relationship is serious or exclusive because there was sex. If you wait until it is, you avoid that misunderstanding.
5. A lot of men and women have their decision-making clouded by great sex. If their judgment is impaired, they’re more likely to overlook toxic behavior in a relationship that they would otherwise run from.
That’s five different ways in which you can potentially decrease the likelihood of being hurt, or decrease the amount of pain felt.
nathan 42
Evan, how is 1-2 years after first meeting rushing? First date sex often is usually not the best approach to developing long term relationships, and I’d agree with your cautions against it in your dating practice. However, I don’t agree that Dagaz rushed into getting married. I doubt waiting another year would have prevented her from getting married to either of her ex’s. Sometimes, it takes some serious mistakes to learn how to read people better, and choose more wisely.
I do disagree with Dagaz’ statement that “it doesn’t matter” when it comes to sex. Many of us need to make more conscious decisions around sexual intimacy, and usually that means waiting longer than a couple of dates. However, it also makes a major difference how the person enters your life, how long you’ve known them before, and also what contexts you’ve seen them interacting in. Meeting a stranger from an online dating site is much different from being introduced to a good friend of a friend, for example.
Dagaz 43
@Evan: of course, i took my time to learn about a man.
i took the liberty to talk about my own experience simply to avoid too much generalization regarding sex on first dates vs proposal/marriage, and as i’ve seen so far, there were no correlation of sex on first dates and divorce.
from what i know (sources are my own life(sorry, again) and experiences of my clients), for marriage it’s not that important when the sex has started, it is how in develops inside the relationship, and there are a lot more things to think about and to stick to in the married life than to recall the beginning (and who said it could be recalled only negatively, it might be as well one of the sweetest memories for both)?
if to dig into correlation first dates/divorce rate, i would notice mostly what role man played from the beginning: was he an initiator/hunter/alpha(if you’d like))), or this role was taken by a woman.
also, two years of waiting before marriage is a very, very generalized thing, IMO. what if it’s a long distance relationship? what if there’re specific circumstances that don’t allow people to see each other 3 times per week? there are much more exceptions to this rule, than we can see on the surface. even in “regular” case some people need much more time, some of them need less to be ready for “i do”.
i would draw the line not in the time, but in the condition inside the relationship, and it’s strictly unique condition every time, because it is formed by very two unique personalities.
otherwise dating coaches wouldn’t have the personal sessions with their clients
Ria 44
I have had the opposite experiences: after learning the art of actually LISTENING what guys say (a la lm not ready for marriage/commitment, and/or let us just see, where it s going, etc) l have acted accordingly – telling the guys, lm off, because as they said, they are not ready, then they are not ready, so l better listen. Result is exactly the opposite - at some point they have said they are *in love,* ready to *commit,* and *talk of the future.* That, however, does not convince me any more to change my mind, but it has given me one benefit – l can actually get to know the guys without the romcom fuzz and get to know them as person and realize wether they can be good friends or potential for more.
Yes, the temptaton to ignore what he says, is there, especially if the guy is cute, successful and hotttt and all that but the more girls should listen.
Heather 45
Evan, I hear what you’re saying and I think that it’s pretty true.
However, I just wonder why men assume, if they “don’t want to hurt us”, that just disappearing is the answer? I find the disappearing more hurtful and rude than the actual truth. I’d rather hear the truth and just be told “this isn’t working for me” than just being ignored. I find it condescending actually. To me it is like, “Well, I just *know* she’ll act all crazy, cry, etc so I’ll just keep her from doing that and addling her pretty little head.”
I do not go crazy or act crazy if a guy tells me this is not going to work. Oh sure, I’ve had a few instances where they told me that and then said in the next sentence that “they still hoped we could be friends” and to those I would basically tell em, sorry, but my friends don’t treat me like crap, so no, we will NOT be friends, buh bye now.” But when a guy says that’s it, that’s it. I immediately erase all texts, contact info, block or remove from Facebook, etc.
I just find it rather insulting behavior. If I can “woman up” and tell a guy that I don’t like him, then I fully expect mature and honest behavior out of a guy. And if I don’t get it, then if he does rear his head again, he’s told that I’m definitely not interested.
Dagaz 46
@ nathan, #42
no doubt, there’s a big distance and difference between sleeping with a total stranger (everything could happen in life though, but never was in these shoes) and to get in bed with a person with whom we’ve met before, under different circumstances.
and no matter how many dates you have before marriage with a particular man, you will never know for sure how it will be until you start to live with him under the same roof. the condition of dating each other exclusively is one thing and it could be basically the same for 2, 3, 4 etc years, but – sharing the whole life, 24/7 is another thing and i’m not entirely sure if it’s possible to learn without trying.
in such cases your wisest choice of future spouse as you’ve considered it before could easely become a living nightmare.
and living 8 years happily with a man with following divorce i don’t consider a failure or unwise choice, not at all. i could say only: thank you for these memories and for this lesson and to move on. no regrets.
@Karl R, #41
i like those 5 points. perhaps, i would keep only the second one))
perhaps, i’m too old-fashioned, but i still find the idea of sleeping with many people (ahem, more than one) is completely ridiculous. the same comes to circular dating, God forbidden. if i want to start/build/develope relationship with a man, i should pay attention to him and to know him better, but how is it possible while having the few men, when the attention/energy/interest is dissolved among them and there’s much more chance to make a crucial mistake, simply because i can’t see clearly?
how many great men would be turned down this way)
Evan Marc Katz 47
Nathan: The “attraction” phase of love lasts for 1 1/2 to 3 years. That’s when you’re still riding the dopamine and serotonin high, and are often willing to overlook bad behaviors. It’s when people are still caught in the haze of being “in love” and haven’t stopped to contemplate whether they can really live together, can deal with the mundane day to day things, the decrease in sex drive, the bad moods, the financial woes, the illnesses, the family obligations. I sincerely feel the relationships that are the safest bet to endure are the ones where they spent 2-3 years before getting engaged, not ones where they get married before 2 years and then are shocked to find out that they’re incompatible for the next thirty years.
Dagaz 48
@Evan, #47
i agree that works for those who are 20-30 years old, no or limited experience, no marriages etc. for those who’s been on this boat already, who are more mature (hopefully), many things are quite visible from the beginning.
but do you really think that every single relationship in our lives is designed to last forever? why the idea of beautiful relationships, following each other (i don’t say it should be a hundred of them)) is impossible on unbearable?..
ok, two 24-y.o. are waiting for 3 years, then get married and then … then they still are growing personalities, and not always in sync, plus the babies and a lot additional work because of the family additions (i would never believe it is possible to find out what kind of parent you or your spouse will be, until you become one, would it be 3 years of waiting or 30), plus new life together, new experience and new responsabilities – summary of all mentioned and not-mentioned (the relatives, for example) changes people. a lot. dramatically. would they nessesary fit together into something which was started few years ago? would 3 years before marriage really guarantee that?..
of course, people could stay in marriage there they are not happy or fullfilled. for 30, 40 and up years. i’ve seen so many examples of that, much more often than opposite.
formally, it’s a family, yes. and they could be put on as an example of long-lasting marriage after 3 years of courtship/engagement.
JS 49
@Evan Marc Katz….you wrote to @Jess – “there is something you could have done. You could have not slept with him until there was a commitment. If he steps up, you get your reward. If he doesn’t, there was no risk.”
My question is…. how? Most of the men I know (guy friends) won’t make commitment without sleeping with a girll first. These are good guys who want relationships and I actually understand their “test-drive” the bedroom before committing idea and even as a woman, I share it. But on the other hand, I agree with you that how can women feel safe without getting a commitment before putting out.
BUT, doesnt that just set women up for lies/being placated….(aka…She says: I wont sleep with you unless we’re committed. He says: Oh, let commit. They do it. 2 days/weeks later…he “realizes this isnt a good fit for him” and he dumps her)
OR, she doesnt tell him flat out that she has a commitment-first policy and he just thinks “she’s not that into me / she’s stringing me along.”
Can you please make sense of all this?
Evan Marc Katz 50
@Degaz: I don’t think anyone should get married before the age of 30 or before 3 years of dating. Unfortunately, I have very little say in what the rest of the world does. You can certainly sleep with men on the first date, get married a year later, have a kid two years later and get divorced two years later. Most people do. I just don’t think that if I’m giving advice, I would advise people to do the same things that everyone else is doing – especially when half of all kids born to 20-30 year olds are born out of wedlock. Are relationships designed to last forever? If you choose the right partner, they can be. If you choose the wrong partner, over and over, then they won’t be. My responsibility is to provide best practices. Want to find a guy who’s gonna last? Find a guy who is moral, who has integrity, who has already sown his oats, who is financially secure, who is happy, and who wants to also get married and have kids. That’s more likely to happen after 30 years old and a few years of dating.
@JS – If your friends won’t become a boyfriend until after they have sex, I guess they’re just not going to date the women that I advise. It doesn’t bother me. It shouldn’t bother my women. And those men can keep on fucking strangers and breaking their hearts. Oh, and as to your last point: men don’t commit to have sex. They just find other women who don’t need commitment. If you want to be one of them, be my guest. Just don’t complain that he slept with you and never called. You agreed to his terms; you pay the price.
Dagaz 51
@Evan: well, personally i like the advice not to get married until 30 (got my first marriage at 28, close enough, i suppose).
but let’s do some math here for the woman who wants a big family (3 kids, let’s say). serious relationship at 28, marriage at 31 (in the best case scenario), 2 years of waiting before to get pregnant (which is important, it’s hard to start a family along with having a baby), then 3 kids with reasonable distance between them (not back-to-back). which comes with her middle 40s. and it’s just a beginning – her youngest one will be 10 when she will be 50+
being 43 now i’d say i’m glad i’m done with baby-diapers era quite a while ago: right now i don’t have so much energy and power to take care about family and a child like i did 10 years ago, i can’t even imagine to do it after 50.
of course, if it needs to be done, it will be, but the price will be much higher, especially when woman works and has her own career she would like to develop.
i don’t want to contrary your opinion by any cost here, Evan, i’m just trying to show that timing generalization is not so stretchable.
(also, i should apologize for my not perfect English))
Vicki 52
Evan,
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a woman sleeping with a guy she’s dating whenever it feels right, whether it’s the first date or the 20th (unless she knows herself well enough to know that she can’t handle casual sex). But, many women can handle casual sex and why should they deny themselves while dating? And, not every dating situation becomes a relationship (nor should it). Dating is exploring; a relationship happens when you already know you like this person enough to be exclusive with him/her.
The problem arises only when it’s clear that someone wants more than sex while dating (ie. — I want to have a relationship with you) and the other doesn’t, and generally you can tell that relatively quickly. Although, there are some men who will court a woman and not sleep with her for a while, and then dump her after the first time they have sex (just as there are women who will string along men and dump him).
Still, it really is best if people state upfront what they want. Of course, too many of us don’t really know what we want!
Evan Marc Katz 53
@Vicki – You didn’t hear me say that anything was wrong with it. You didn’t hear me give a number of dates. You heard me come up with a policy for women who sleep with men and then sit nervously by the phone for months, hoping that that man will become her boyfriend, and get crushed when he doesn’t. And since it’s not always clear where a man stands – even when both parties are consenting adults – the smartest, safest policy for women is to wait for exclusivity before having sex. Once again, if you don’t wait for it, then you can’t be too upset or surprised when he turns out to be another guy who didn’t want to commit.
Karl R 54
JS asked: (#49)
“BUT, doesnt that just set women up for lies/being placated….(aka…She says: I wont sleep with you unless we’re committed. He says: Oh, let commit. They do it. 2 days/weeks later…he ‘realizes this isnt a good fit for him’ and he dumps her)”
You can’t avoid the scenario you describe. Nor do you want to. The majority of the time, you’ll commit to dating exclusively, you’ll have sex, and then a few weeks/months later, one of you will decide that it won’t work out in the long run.
If you follow Evan’s guideline, you will still experience that with every boyfriend/girlfriend … except the one you marry.
But you’re avoiding having sex with the men who already know that they’re never going to commit to you. You avoid having sex with the men who are dating other women, and consider those other women to be a better choice for a long-term relationship than you.
I’m perfectly willing to wait for sex until there’s exclusivity. If the sex is bad, and the sex shows no signs of improving, I can still break things off. I’m just agreeing to explicitly break things off before I date or have sex with someone else.
Tina M 55
Evan – Your advice is awesome. Wish I could have learned this in high school and saved myself 20 years of misery and another broken home.
Better late than never to get it right.
Lily2 56
Exclusivity is NOT the same as boyfriend! All it means is that the guy isnt having sex with or dating other women AT THAT TIME. That can be true, and the woman can still end up nothing more than a sex buddy, booty call, although she might think it’s more than that.
I wasted 2 yrs with a guy who was “not seeing anybody else” but he was not my boyfriend either, and that was apparent by his behavior. I was in this painful gray zone, I’d never been in before. My nativity keep me hanging in there way too long all because we were “exclusive”…. that was the big hook! I wont ever make that mistake again. Exclusive does not equal boyfriend! I think Evan would agree with me on this.
Muny 57
Thanks Evan! I mean it’s crazy how it totally reminds me of this guy I briefly dated. But somehow I feel that it is deceit. If a guy knows that he doesn’t want commitment but keeps pressuring you for sex and pretending, maintaining the status quo, I kinda feel betrayed, and wronged. It just feel really astonishing to see some guys do whatever it takes to get in your pants when they know you won’t unless there’s commitment (and yeah that involves begging you to stay, tears, empty words). Is sex THAT good? I guess I just don’t get how those guys can get away with it and feel no regret at all… Sticking around just enough to get what they want, playing mindgames as well are just really shady and shameful things to do.
nathan 58
“Nathan: The “attraction” phase of love lasts for 1 1/2 to 3 years. That’s when you’re still riding the dopamine and serotonin high, and are often willing to overlook bad behaviors”
I have learned how to see though the haze and pay closer attention in a much shorter time span. Which doesn’t mean I would rush into getting married, but it does mean that I’m spending more time assessing the reality of the relationship, as opposed to riding the attraction high. The way I see it, with experience, and some training on what to pay attention to, most people can become smarter daters who spend less time in dead end relationships.
As for waiting for exclusivity before having sex, I think that all it does is weed out the players and those not interested in a committed relationship. Anyone can get hurt at any time, because even the majority of committed relationships don’t last. As Vicki stated, dating is exploring. In fact, I would say that exclusivity is just the next stage of exploring. You know enough about someone that you want to focus on being with them, but you don’t know enough yet to say “I want to be with this person for decades of my life.” Each of us has to decide what we can handle, and what we can’t, and then go from there.
Lisa 59
OH dear! This was a recent situatation I was in (eyeroll or not). This may have even been my recent email in reference. FUNNY! It may have seemed obvious but at the time after a few great dates ……someone stating, “I dont want a girlfriend right now, but be patient” was a bit confusing as it was in direct contrast to prior conversations without going into details of what”he said”. I guess I wasnt patient because I did interpret it as. “I do not want a relationship” period. I am older (mid 40s) and so new to online dating and dating in general–I dont have the luxury of time wasting with someone who is just not in a place for a relationship. I chose to believe him and not take it personally. Luckilly, it was only over a month in; In hindsight, that kind of truthful statement is appreciated.
amy 60
Evan, I think your library is in sore need of expansion. You see how things work, but you’re profoundly unquestioning about whether or not women should participate in what’s going on. Whether it’s any good for us or our children. The reason you keep getting criticized isn’t because you’re wrong, but because there are smarter ways to do this.
Let’s say that starting today, women who actually wanted relationships, and maybe marriage, and took their sexuality seriously, stopped putting out until the couples had courted and relationships had actually developed, and the couples were, I don’t know, six months down the line, or engaged, or whatever. The women all went out and bought top-flight vibrators and had fun on their own while the men stewed and squired them around.
What do you figure would happen?
I think there’d be a hell of a backlash from frustrated men.
I think women would suddenly be branded cockteases, bitches (even more often), etc. all over again, just like they were a few decades ago.
I think rates of rape and other domestic violence would skyrocket, and that the law would shrug, suggesting that if you lead a man on, well, this will happen.
Look back a few decades: people haven’t changed that much.
In other words, it’s not a tenable thing to suggest unless there’s a hell of a lot more social and legal protection in place for women than exists now. So what you’re really saying here, with your “I’m just being honest” talk, is: Men will use you sexually. Get used to it. It’s just part of the frog-kissing process and eventually something good will come out of it.
If you’ll excuse me, that sounds like the rationalization of a kid who got beat up a lot in junior high and now has a nicer house and a prettier wife than his former bullies do, and says look, it all turns out in the end, forget them, everyone gets beat up a little. And I don’t think it’s a course of behavior to recommend. Because you don’t have to get beat up, and you don’t have to be used sexually.
There are ways to defend against this kind of use-and-drop behavior from men, but I think you don’t know about them because you’re not really interested, and I think the psychological roots of that are deep. I think it has to do with a sense of manning up rather than admitting vulnerability as a nerd, and admitting that you got really fucking hurt in jr hi, high school. And because you’re a fundamentally, if naively, equal-opportunity kind of guy, you’re bringing that very male attitude to the women and saying, look, you can do this too. But I think it’s a damaging and unnecessary position to take.
Here’s the most short-term effective thing a woman can do to guard against being used sexually: Have good friends, including several large, male friends. Before sleeping with a man, bring him around to meet your friends and family. Do this a few times. I guarantee that a man who’s intent on using you will vanish, because he likes his face in one piece. Men prey happily on vulnerable women who have no support. Not too many are willing to prey on women with big workout buddies and brothers. I stayed blissfully safe throughout my first couple years of college because, unbeknownst to me, I had a phalanx of very large men looking out for me. If a guy asked me out, he’d get a visit from these guys, and receive the understanding that I’d be treated well. And I was. When I finally settled on a boyfriend, it was someone they all approved of. I didn’t know that — but the guy did. They rewarded him for treating me well just as they’d have punished a guy who didn’t treat me well.
Here’s the most long-term effective thing a woman can do: Elect legislators who have your back when it comes to harassment, rape, reproductive rights, domestic violence, etc. And then — here’s the crucial part — use those laws. Stand up, lawyer up, go to court. If a guy date-rapes you, preserve all the evidence you can, and get yourself straight to a hospital for a rape kit. And then nail that sucker for all he’s worth. Don’t be shy and mumbly about it or decide it was your fault. If he’s your superior at work, don’t keep your yap shut about how he bedded and dropped you: that’s an abuse of power. Know what harassment is so that when you’re taking things slow and a guy starts pressuring you for sex, you know how to handle it, and again: use the law. The laws don’t mean a thing if you don’t use them.
Better yet, run for office. Gain power at work. I live in a university town where a couple decades ago, a faculty member was harassed with unbelievable cruelty over 13 years, was told by the university admin to suck it up or leave, and only filed suit after being denied a promotion. Her take was large — around a million, I think — and things changed. Today, you cannot harass a woman here or play sexual power games unless you want your career to end and the possibility of both civil and criminal charges. The university will drop you like a hot potato if you harass women; their money and lawyers will not back you. Women are in positions of power in administration, and suddenly the women’s center is well-funded. Young mothers are supported as they make their way through college. They’re aware of what rape is, they learn the difference between respectful and disrespectful behavior from men, and they learn that men are not entitled to treat them disrespectfully. Despite what the men might believe.
So: demand respect, use the law and force to command respect, and you will get respect. Move the onus to the man. If he disrespects you by fucking you and vanishing, make sure there’s a price to pay. And make sure the next one understands that clearly before you head to the bedroom.
Jewel 61
Evan @40
”but I always encourage for women to wait for exclusivity for sex and to wait at least two years before getting engaged…”
This is mature, sound advice and involves setting boundaries about what we want, and being prepared to walk away when a guy isnt being authentic. In my last relationship we became exclusive after dating for 2 months. It was what we both wanted at the time. 9 months later, and thinsg still fantastic, I discover he has been cheating so I ended the relationship. His willingness to commit was one thing, but his behaviour to the contrary showed me he is not marriage material.
Time is essential to reveal these sorts of issues and I am glad that I found this out now before I married him. It really is just about setting boundaries-continuing if the agreement is still being met, and walking away when it is not. But the agreement needs to be clear in the beginning if it is a long term relationship or marriage you are wanting.
Keri 62
Evan you are awesome! I’ve learned so much from you! If I would have known your advice before I starting dating at 18 I would have avoided wasting so much time with the wrong men. Great article!
Jane09 63
Yep, I too used to own a pair of magical girlie ” Instant Relationship “ear muffs . They would filter out all unpleasant realities like ” I am not looking for the long term” or ” I dont want any complications” completely and amplify any slightest interest he showed me into signs of undying devotion.
It may be true that men are sometimes hold back on wanting an ongoing relationship . If you read the average online profile men are stating they want to have “fun” , spend good times together and “see where it goes”.
But to be fair , most of them are experienced with these “instant Relationship” filters that women are prone to and the guys are trying to be honest.
Erika 64
What Evan describes is exactly how my current boyfriend feels about dating. He tells me that when a man meets a woman he wants to commit to, he does it. It’s unequivocal. He thinks to himself, “I gotta take her off the market.” So he does. My girlfriends are always asking him for advice and he says the same thing over and over again–if a man wants you, you’ll know it–he’ll call you, ask to see you, and take you out. If he’s not doing those things, he doesn’t really want you.
So find someone who does. Do you really want to chase after someone who doesn’t want you? And even if you trick a guy into wanting you, how long do you can make it last? And what kind of basis is that for a relationship–one based on trickery, or you pretending to be someone you’re not?
When I was dating, I went out with this guy named James. I knew he wasn’t interested because he would text me but never ask me out. So I kept dating. (The truth is I liked him, but didn’t see any longterm potential, so it’s not like he broke my heart or anything.) Then James disappeared for awhile, and during that time I met someone else. Someone I wanted to pursue a relationship with. Then James appeared a few months later and texted me, asking if I wanted to go out. I told him that I had met someone special and was pursuing that. Do you know what he texted me? He wrote, “Well, I guess it’s not me.” (Duh!) And then he texted, “Is it because I’m so distant?” I wrote back, “You’re so funny! LOL. Best of luck to you.”
That was the last I heard of him. It’s so funny because I think he actually thought I was sitting around waiting for him to call, and was shocked that I had moved on. I mean, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, no? If a guy is only mildly interested in me, I can tell, and I’m not gonna waste my time. I’m gonna find someone who wants me back.
And I have.
Evan Marc Katz 65
Amy,
As always, eloquent. But honestly? Nonsensical. You go to great lengths to establish something – I’m not sure what, exactly. That I got teased in junior high? That legislators should make laws protecting women? That rape would go up if women stopped putting out? Um…okay. I’m not going to begin to go down that rabbit hole with you. I will say this, however:
You suggest that I unquestioningly advocate that women participate in getting used. Nope. I simply point out that men look for sex before they know if they’re interested in love. And no amount of legislators is going to change that, Amy. So for liberated women who are comfortable having sex without commitment, they can participate in the hook up culture as they see fit. And for women who want a greater measure of security before sleeping with a man, I advocate that they wait until exclusivity.
Everything else you wrote – bring your fourth date to meet a bunch of other, large male friends? – is so out there that it’s not even worth a response. This is a thread about men who sleep with women without commitment. It’s been happening since the beginning of time. All your verbal profusions about university administrators isn’t gonna change it.
That’s not naivete. That’s life. And to conflate men wanting sex with women other than their girlfriends with rape? I think you’ve created your own mental slippery slope that doesn’t adhere to reality. I slept with lots of women who weren’t my girlfriend. Hooked up with many others who didn’t want to have sex. Didn’t rape any of them. Most men can say the same thing.
Sorry, Amy, but you missed this one by a country mile.
P.S. I just read this last line of yours, Amy: “If he disrespects you by fucking you and vanishing, make sure there’s a price to pay.” I’m pretty sure there are no laws against a man having consensual sex and deciding not to marry a woman. But there are laws against big men beating up strangers who emotionally hurt their friends. So, short of vigilante justice, what’s the solution? Stop sleeping with men outside of commitment unless you can handle the emotional consequences of him not calling back. Making large male friends to intimidate your new guy will only cement one thing: that you’re completely tone-deaf to how normal people relate in real life.
Tracy 66
Great post, Evan–it was spot on. Typically, men don’t express their intentions verbally–whether they’re good or bad–they’re expressed in everything they DO. I also agree completely with Heather; I’d prefer a man just say, “it’s not working out” than to sheepishly disappear.
amy 67
Evan, you say “no amount of legislators is going to change that”. Well — y’know, it’s amazing what legislators have been able to change. I’m able to sit here in my own house, on my own time, with custody of my own kid (conceived and born on my own schedule), avoiding work of my own choosing, the pay for which I’ll keep in my own bank account, and picking out my own men, all because of legislators.
Which I think is deeply wonderful. I’ve spent part of the week working with legislators to ensure that those custody rules don’t change, despite the fact that 150 years ago, it would’ve been beyond heretical to regard children as anything but their fathers’ property. Or women as capable of engaging in legislative work.
Men may go out looking for sex, but it doesn’t mean they have to get it, and more to the point it doesn’t mean they have to get it from your dear readers, if all they aim to do is sample, and leave the women (rightly) feeling used. Let me parse it more tightly for you: If you tell women, “Don’t put out till it’s exclusive”, and leave them to make it happen just by say-so — and they actually take your advice en masse — then yeah, you’re going to see (more) vicious attacks on women. Same sort of viciousness that went on pre-Pill, when women wouldn’t put out (officially, and often in reality) till you put a ring on it. Men don’t take it well when you make it tough for them to get laid. So if women are going to say “yes, but only if you’re going to treat me decently,” they’d better have real, tangible backup, and it had better be institutional in the society. Fathers and brothers who’ll go beat the living daylights out of a man who treats a woman bad. Judges who’ll say “you’ve abused your position of power”.
As for rape: it’s one end of a continuum of bad and disrespectful behavior, that’s all. But many women show up at college unaware of the respect they’re due, and that they can realistically command. You know, I was a student 25 years ago, and a student 5 years ago. And the treatment from professors was night and day. 25 years ago? They’d make a pass as soon as look at you. Now? The office door stays open. The conversation is endlessly respectful. Not because they’re any less horny; I wound up having an affair with one of my recent profs, and fielded tentative invitations from several others, despite my advanced age. But damned if they’ll make the first move. And god knows they won’t do the old-school surprise-attack snog. They’ve got way too much on the line: the woman will call the shots, and afterwards the male profs will be very, very careful in how they treat her. Nobody wants to lose a hard-won career over a lay.
Thank you legislators and second-wave university administrators, and thank you women who were willing to use equal-opportunity laws to force the changes.
If a woman’s going to say “not till it’s worth my time,” she’s got to have social/institutional support, or it doesn’t stick.
(Amy, I know you posted two other long replies. I’m not censoring you because I can’t take a debate. I simply don’t want to allow lengthy tangential triple posts that completely derail the original conversation. This one was most on point. – EMK)
Evan Marc Katz 68
@Amy. A man doesn’t deserve to have the daylights beat out of him for having sex with a woman that he doesn’t commit to.
It’s not your daddy’s job – or the government’s job – to police this type of behavior. It’s yours by choosing men who seem like nice, moral human beings. It’s not foolproof, but you can often tell the good eggs from the bad ones after a few dates or so. I also disagree that refusing to sleep with men is going to increase rape in any substantial way. Do you also think that the converse is true: that the only way to prevent being raped is by sleeping with him? I’m pretty sure that’s not what you’re saying. Yet that seems to be the only solution if “holding out” is going to increase rape.
You know what? Don’t answer me. Just leave this tired trope alone. I’ll stick with my very well-received advice that women should not sleep with men who aren’t boyfriends, and you can maintain that they should sleep with them (as long as you have some muscle and lobbyists backing you up). Agree to disagree. I just don’t want to have to write another long post defending a reasonable point of view against this over-the-top propaganda comparing modern dating to the 1800′s and consensual sex with rape and sexual harassment. These are highly flawed arguments and you’re bright enough to know it – even if you believe in your own central premise.
You can’t make laws stating that men must commit to women after having sex. And you can’t run around physically assaulting the men that do. I’m as pro-woman and pro-feminism as they come, but both of these concepts are absurd on their surface. Which only leaves one thing: make better decisions with men. It’s on you to change your choice in men; it’s not on men to commit to every woman they sleep with. It’s not reasonable, fair, possible, or governable.
Jane09 69
I hesitate to agree with Amy but there is a grain of good sense hidden under the recommendation to intimidate a prospective sex partner with large men friends and see if he disappears..(cute)..
What I do agree with is letting him see you in your context , with male and female friends or casually with family if it happens that way, before you commit to getting fully sexual.Let him see you as a real person with a normal life and normal social networks. Dont meet only for solo dates. Sometimes this will filter out a person who prefers not to “get involved” in any way. Perhaps its easier to hit and run when he hasnt experienced you as someones sister, daughter, friend or mother.
NOT that this always works. I was played once by a guy who introduced me to his family on the third date , wanted to come to my family birthday on the 4 th date got the sex then disappeared. I mistook his family intimacies as signs of longevity..ha ha !!
Androgynous 70
Evan, it is possible to make laws stating that men must commit to women after having sex. It is called Shariah. But somehow I don’t think Amy is advocating that. Amy sounds very confused – on one hand harking back to the good ole days when the private behaviors of men and women could be controlled and legislated by some central authority, enforced by the threat of force, violence or worse. Then, on the other hand, celebrating the emancipation of women, their growing economic, political and societal power, progress and freedom. Amy seems to want an inverse Shariah world, where women are the one taking the big stick to men, so that the tyranny of the patriarchy is replaced by the tyranny of the matriachy.
Saint Stephen 71
@Androgynous
Sharia, has to do with religion. Anyone who isn’t a Muslim can’t be bound by sharia laws. They can’t tell me how my girlfriend should dress… or if i should be able to fondle her in public places. I highly doubt the possibility that such laws can be passed on national level. That’s basically going against human freewill, something i know the American society never advocates.
And what happens when it’s the woman who doesn’t want the relationship to continue post-sex (particularly because he was lousy in bed)? That means she’s simply gets stuck with him just by the reason of having sex. There’s definitely a downside of such legislation.
susan 72
I’vee just taken Evans advice (again). This time, framed with some humour – I’d like to offer you priority parking, but I need to be sure there’s no other traffic in the queue.
Time will tell.
The last one ran away. A lucky escape as it turns out.
Yes, it’s all about boundaries and priorities. simple as that.
Heather 73
While I understand Amy’s point, I would like to point out that Karma can be a far better equalizer and teacher than many man-made consequences.
Case in point: my ex husband had multiple addiction issues, a life threatening illness, and no job when he got violent with me. When I kicked him out, he had to move in with his family. He had no money, no job, and a car payment. Me? While I had debt that he stuck me with, I had a job, a place to live, friends, and a life. And my health. And I am moving forward. He is still dealing with a potentially terminal illness, and from what someone told me recently, a big load of regret for what he did to me.
I’m not saying I’m gloating per se, but it does make me feel vindicated that I don’t need to seek revenge or justice. Karma did that for me. After all, there is a saying: “The best revenge, is to live well.” And I am doing just that.
Yes, we ladies are participants in relationships and dating situations, but when we have truly been wronged, just let Karma take her course. Take the high road. Oh sure, if the guy comes around again to try nonsense, tell him off, but let Karma do the work. She’ll make sure that the guy who mistreated you, gets his comeuppance.
Ruby 74
Heather #73, wrote “…let Karma do the work. She’ll make sure that the guy who mistreated you, gets his comeuppance”. I wish it always worked that way! But for those of us who don’t have dads, big brothers, or linebacker guy pals to fight our battles for us, how about trusting our gut when a man tells us something that sounds off, or doesn’t sit well, and simply avoiding that man?
Of course the laws and the courts should protect us from rape and abuse, but most dating situations are much more benign than that. Women need to be more vigilant when evaluating men, and I do believe that men give us signals early on when something isn’t right. That’s why Evan’s comment that we should believe the negatives, and ignore the positives, is so important to remember. Oftentimes, though, we don’t want to believe that something is wrong with the guy we like so much. Waiting to have sex helps many of us to keep a clearer head about a man, and most men I’ve met have no problem with that. The ones who do were just going to bail anyway.
Heather 75
@ Ruby, oh I completely agree! We definitely need to listen to our inner voice and be more selective of the men we date. Even so though, despite doing everything “right” and following good advice and waiting to jump into bed, etc, there are still going to be guys who know how to play head games with women. That was what I was referring to, with Karma.
I’m actually rather hypervigilant with men. If I even see a hint of an issue, the guy is gone now. I don’t want to wait and find out 6 months from now, that the guy truly is a creep. Heck, I won’t even give a guy a second chance if he doesn’t call when he says he will, before we meet in person. I just tell them it’s not going to work for me, I need a guy who will follow through on what he says. It’s caused a few guys to get snarky but I figure if they’re going to get snarky, well, then they weren’t the right guy for me anyways, because the right guy will call when he says he will call, will follow through on his promises.
Karl R 76
amy said: (#60)
“Here’s the most short-term effective thing a woman can do to guard against being used sexually: Have good friends, including several large, male friends. Before sleeping with a man, bring him around to meet your friends and family. Do this a few times. I guarantee that a man who’s intent on using you will vanish, because he likes his face in one piece.”
That will guarantee that no sensible, civilized man will ever want to get into a relationship with you.
Let’s say your date threatened physical violence against any girlfriend who stole anything of his. (I’m assuming that you’d never consider stealing from your date/boyfriend.) Being an honest person, would you continue to date him? Or would you dump him immediately, because you don’t want to be in a relationship with anyone who considers physical violence to be a good response to theft?
And even if I’d had sex with you on a first date, and you later introduced me to your large, violent friends, I’d still dump you immediately. I’ve been assaulted before. It’s not that scary. Dating an unstable woman who tries to get her friends to beat up ex-dates/ex-boyfriends, that’s scary.
amy said: (#60)
“I stayed blissfully safe throughout my first couple years of college because, unbeknownst to me, I had a phalanx of very large men looking out for me. If a guy asked me out, he’d get a visit from these guys, and receive the understanding that I’d be treated well. And I was. When I finally settled on a boyfriend, it was someone they all approved of. I didn’t know that — but the guy did.”
So you had college friends who acted like adolescents? That’s not surprising. And you had a college boyfriend who accepted being treated like an adolescent by a group of adolescents? Still not surprising.
Good luck finding an adult boyfriend who considers that to be tolerable behavior.
amy said: (#60)
“I think there’d be a hell of a backlash from frustrated men.
I think women would suddenly be branded cockteases, bitches (even more often), etc. all over again, just like they were a few decades ago.
I think rates of rape and other domestic violence would skyrocket, and that the law would shrug, suggesting that if you lead a man on, well, this will happen.”
Every single one of my ex-girlfriends would disagree with you.
I’ve met women who feel the same way you do, but I would never date them. I’m a decent human being. I don’t want to be in a relationship with anyone who thinks I’m not.
You’re giving advice which would drive away decent men. Why should any woman listen to you?
amy said: (#67)
“Evan, you say ‘no amount of legislators is going to change that’. Well — y’know, it’s amazing what legislators have been able to change.”
So you want legislation passed that prevents women from having sex with men on the first date (or first several dates) … in order to “protect women”?
Most of my female friends/acquaintances want to be protected from government legislators who would dictate what they can/can’t do on a first date.
You’re being inconsistent. If you want the right to make your own decisions about sex (which I fully support), then you bear the responsibility for your own decisions. I’ve had sex and later decided it was a mistake. My mistake. I didn’t claim that it was that woman’s fault. (She hadn’t done anything criminal, and she didn’t seem to regret her decision. Therefore, I don’t see any reason to fault her decision to have sex with me.)
If you want to be protected from the consequences of bad decisions, make better decisions. That strategy worked well for me.
Liz 77
WTF is Amy talking about? I have decent reading comprehension skills and I didn’t get what she was going for at all. Especially the rape business. If EMK’s clients hold out a few extra months before having sex, rapes will go up??? WHAT THE HELL?????
SS 78
Evan, I know this is getting off topic a bit, but Dagaz @51 has a good point in terms of your timing formula and how it could be very counterproductive for a woman who sees a somewhat larger family in her future. Even if she sees two kids in her future, that could be a problem.
Unless the woman meets Mr. Right when she’s 27, marries him at 30 and then starts childbearing at 32 (and this assumes there are no fertility problems), your advice about waiting 3 years between meeting and marriage really puts women behind the 8 ball in terms of family formation.
I worked with dating coaches and read tons of advice (some from big names you’ve probably heard of), and nearly all said that a man over 30 who is serious will propose in a year. And then marriage will take place no more than a year after that. I know there are exceptions to the rule (and some women might not want to move that quickly), but there comes a point in time in which people should know what they want after a decade or more of being a single adult, sowing oats, establishing themselves, etc.
I say this as well noticing the ever-growing group of female friends I have in their mid-30s who’ve been trying for 2-3 years for a child with little success. If they’re lucky, they’ll have one and maybe two. But what if they met Mr. Right at 35, married him at 38 and were trying for kids at that point? The odds are a lot worse for them.
For those who don’t want kids, this obviously isn’t an issue, of course. But I do think Dagaz brings up an excellent point that’s often missed in these discussions about how waiting on a man — although it might seem prudent — can actually rob women of the most crucial time they have to bear children.
Other than that, I agree on the waiting for sex part!
Evan Marc Katz 79
@SS “I worked with dating coaches and read tons of advice (some from big names you’ve probably heard of), and nearly all said that a man over 30 who is serious will propose in a year.”
Please let me know who these dating coaches are and I will publicly chastise them. I can only assume that they’re all women because the advice is completely tone-deaf to male needs. And that’s the dangerous part of asking women to give you advice about men – the advice is based on wishful thinking. They tell you what they think men SHOULD do. I’m here to tell you what men WILL do.
I will gladly acknowledge that there are exceptions to EVERY rule – yes, even the brilliant rules that I routinely make up. But my rules are based on reality, not fantasy. They’re based on the fact that men WILL sleep with you and never want to call you again, they WILL date you for a year and have no intention of getting married and – if they’re smart, they WILL want to take as much time as necessary to determine if plunking down $10K+ on a ring and signing a piece of paper that entitles you to half of his income is a good long term decision for him. Refusal to acknowledge and understand that is like being an ostrich and burying your head.
The real issue here, SS, is the idea that you can entirely plan your own life. You can’t. You can try, but, as they say, “We plan. God laughs.” So was it ideal that I married a 39 year old woman even though we wanted multiple kids? No. But it’s all gonna work out just fine, thank you. As will your life, even if you don’t have four kids.
As a woman, you can’t complain that men only want to date women 27-32 so that THEY have plenty of time to procreate and then turn around and say, at 35, “You better propose to me after one year or I’m out of here!” You are simply more attuned to YOUR needs than his. Which is normal. But it doesn’t mean it’s fair. And it doesn’t mean it’s effective.
So you tell your other dating coaches that a MALE dating coach who understands men thinks that any man who proposes within a year is making a huge mistake – and is marrying either out of blind passion before the honeymoon wears off – or out of fear that his girlfriend will give him the ultimatum if he doesn’t put a ring on it. Either way is foolish.
You can try to plan your life around having the big brood you want – with each kid being spaced two years apart – but men aren’t as concerned with such matters. He just wants to make sure that you’re cool, fun, easygoing, playful, supportive and that you handle money and conflict agreeably. And until you’ve gone through a few years together, it’s hard to tell all of this.
You and your other coaches can try to convince yourselves that men should want to marry you after a year. I will continue to speak to women who actually want to hear what real men think.
Laya 80
Evan, in regards to length of courtship you are right but also a little wrong. According to a ground breaking study done by Ted Huston called the PAIR Project, couples who date 1-3 years have the best chance of a happy marriage. It was a longitudinal study that spanned 10 years following couples through marriage and in some cases divorce. You can read a very the fascinating article called “Truly, Madly, Deeply,” by Ted Huston. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Laya 81
Or this article which was taken from the work of Ted Huston, “Marriage Success Related to How Long You Dated.”
Evan Marc Katz 82
Great stuff, Laya. I’ll link to it on another day, but suffice to say that I found a lot more validation of my theories than I did contradiction. Here’s the paragraph that alluded to your point, although I didn’t see what you said about the 1-3 years. In fact, here’s what I saw.
“The fact of a couple moving quickly toward marriage is not in and of itself a problem as much as what is driving the speed. (The average length of courtships in the study was two years, four months)…If a couple is still finding lots of reasons not to marry after four or more years, then that’s usually because they’re subconsciously picking up on problems or even thinking that they themselves aren’t suitable for marriage, ever.”
So if the average courtship is 2 years and 4 months, that would seem that there are a number of people waiting over two years to decide to marry. And I agree that if you don’t have a ring before four years, it’s a sign of something else wrong. So we’re all on the same page. Thanks for sharing.
SS 83
Evan,
The main one is Janis Spindel. I can’t say I directly worked with her, but I met her at an event. Her mindset is that, based on dealing with men over 35, is that the ones who want to marry typically decide to propose within a year. Some might even want to propose earlier, but a year is typically standard.
I have heard from men as well that in dealing with the over-30 population, it’s more common than many women think for a man to be ready to propose within 12 months. I first heard this from Bob Grant.
If a man over 30 proposes within a year (give or take a few months maybe) and then there’s a year to plan the wedding, you still end up with courtship period of about 18-24 months, which is in the time frame mentioned by the male researcher that Laya mentioned. I consider the engagement period as part of the courtship process, as the couple is still not married yet.
That’s the dangerous part of asking women to give you advice about men – the advice is based on wishful thinking. They tell you what they think men SHOULD do. I’m here to tell you what men WILL do.
But what if they’re speaking from experience watching what their male clients did? (They aren’t just dating coaches, some are matchmakers.) And what their own husbands did? Because those men DID propose within a year and those women are still married after decades. Older women who advised me as well gave me advice based on what their husbands did. (Some proposed within 3-6 months and they’re still married 20+ years later.) My own husband did. In fact, I used to be one who believed men needed to take longer to decide they wanted to marry, and it was these women who showed me through example that perhaps I was allowing men to waste my time and to have a more strict standard. That was the advice that actually worked for me, and I was stunned to meet more than a few men who were ready to propose in no more than a year and to marry within 18-24 months of meeting a woman. And a year after I married, a relative of mine (in her 40s) married a man (in his 40s) after just EIGHT months of courtship. Now that’s too fast for my tastes, but that’s what he wanted to do and that’s what he did. They have a baby due in July — the first for both of them. I don’t know what might have happened if they had waited three years… well, she’d be 45 and perhaps unable to have any kids at all by that point.
As a woman, you can’t complain that men only want to date women 27-32 so that THEY have plenty of time to procreate and then turn around and say, at 35, “You better propose to me after one year or I’m out of here!”
Actually, I was one of those women ages 27-32 (age 31 to be exact) who dated a 37-year-old man who didn’t want to be rushed based on a woman’s biological clock, but he didn’t want to 4+ years to have a child either… or be about 46-47 when the last kid was born. We both wanted marriage and kids and didn’t see the need to wait any longer than a year to plan for our marriage and no longer than two years to actually marry. Maybe we’re just old school and traditional. Some people are like that.
So you tell your other dating coaches that a MALE dating coach who understands men thinks that any man who proposes within a year is making a huge mistake – and is marrying either out of blind passion before the honeymoon wears off – or out of fear that his girlfriend will give him the ultimatum if he doesn’t put a ring on it. Either way is foolish.
Okay, but I think I’d be a bad example for them, seeing that their advice worked…
My only point is that, based on what I’ve seen, heard and experienced personally, I think the idea that a woman over 30 or 35 has to wait two years before getting a proposal and three years before getting married is flawed. Yes there are some good men over 30 who will want to wait that long and everything will work out just fine, but there are also perfectly good and normal men over 30 who will want to commit a year or two earlier than that and it won’t be because of an ultimatum or out of crazy honeymoon period lust. And their marriages won’t necessarily be any worse off because of it. And I do think that women who want children (especially a larger brood) should keep this in mind as they make their decisions about how long to stay in a non-marital relationship… because some of these men might have already made up their minds at the one-year mark that the woman they’re with is NOT who they plan on marrying… and those women’s time is being wasted.
Dagaz 84
@Evan , quoting:
” You are simply more attuned to YOUR needs than his. Which is normal. But it doesn’t mean it’s fair. And it doesn’t mean it’s effective.”
i would say, when woman is concerned about her biological clock, it’s not entirely only HER needs. because here we are talking about the health and well-being of the future children, and i suppose this fact should be among HIS needs a priori.
otherwise why man would want a kids after all?
if a man while dating and taking his time to fulfill only his fragile emotional needs, while there’s something more important for the BOTH potential partners, if he will think that child-bearing, pregnancy, having a baby is only the woman’s problem – who would want him as a husband?
Evan Marc Katz 85
@SS – I was emailing Janis the other day. She’s a friend, but I’m certainly not in lockstep with her. In fact, I’m going to double down on what I said earlier:
Yes, there are plenty of men who chose to propose within one year because they’re excited, positive, lonely, needy, desperate or feel a ticking clock. Janis knows them. You know them. I know them. And a percentage of them work out. Those are the stories you’re selectively citing. I can cite MANY more stories of people who thought they “just knew” that it was right getting married quickly and breaking up down the road because they hadn’t really seen the full picture yet. You’re just drawing on the selective anecdotes that support your case. And just because many 50 year old men DO propose within a year to their second wives doesn’t mean that’s a good plan. Especially since second marriages break up at a higher rate than first marriages.
You seem to forget that I was a 36 year old guy who proposed to his 39 year old wife in 16 months PRECISELY because of the kids issue. BUT – a) I was a VERY experienced dater, b) I was a dating coach who understands these dynamics better than most single men, c) I was not making a decision because I was POSITIVE that she was my SOULMATE and that I HAD to do this (which is the way many people who rush to the altar decide.) d. I nearly had a panic attack after we were married because I moved so fast and still wasn’t sure that I did the right thing. e. I didn’t feel good about my decision – ironically – until six months into our marriage when we had our first miscarriage.
Point is: you can take any one person’s story and extrapolate it to say, “See, it worked”! John played the lottery and won. “See, SOMEBODY wins the lottery!” It still isn’t a particularly smart strategy for building wealth.
Whether you like it or not, SS, taking more time before getting married makes the inevitable decline of passion and the reality of mundane married life a lot more predictable and palatable. So while it’s not impossible to rush to the altar and get lucky that you chose well, it’s also not a good strategy.
About the ONLY time that it MAY be advisable to get engaged before two years is when the woman is in her late thirties – any other time, it makes absolutely no sense. If your relationship is that strong, you will still be together in two to three years. No need to get married and find out that you weren’t as strong as you thought.
Heather 86
@ Evan:
Heck, I’m in my later 30s and I feel zero need to rush. Then again I have chosen to not have children, and since my first marriage ended so badly, and have recently witnessed my uncle walk out on my aunt after 35 years of marriage, all of a sudden. I think I’d actually panic and hit the “eject” button on my current relationship if he asks me before we’ve had at least a year together! He’s never been married and I know he wants marriage but I made it really clear that after what I have been through, I need alot of time to make sure I don’t get my heart broken one more time. I’m still not sure if I completely trust him yet, and we have dated four months! Not that he has done anything to warrant that, but it’s just me being extremely cautious and being burned too many times.
And I think I may not be alone out there. I think there could be a good few of us in our later 30s who don’t want to jump into something and want to protect our hearts, and make sure we can minimize drama.
Susan61 87
I made the mistake of falling for a man 3 years ago, who I unfortunately still work with, and one of my biggest regrets in life is sleeping with him before knowing where the relationship was going. I had just gotten out of a 4.5 year relationship and apparently felt confident (he was very into me), cocky and just so happy to be attracted to someone. We waited several weeks, and knew each other for 6 months but in retrospect, I was stupid and cavalier. I have certainly learned my lesson and have now been celibate for well over 3 years. The whole thing has been the worst experience of my adult life. It isn’t easy and I still haven’t ‘stopped beating myself up. I know it’s not helping me but whenever I read articles like this, it’s just a reminder how different women and men are. It’s always a risk.
Now I ask myself: how much longer do I want to be celibate? Can I be celibate for the rest of my life? Can I have a casual relationship while I hope to meet someone I can have a real relationship with? I am attractive and still look pretty good at 50 but I know the odds are stacked high against me, and no I’m not interested in dating a 65 year old.
Karl R 88
Susan61 said: (#87)
“I made the mistake of falling for a man 3 years ago, who I unfortunately still work with, and one of my biggest regrets in life is sleeping with him before knowing where the relationship was going.” [...] “The whole thing has been the worst experience of my adult life. It isn’t easy and I still haven’t ‘stopped beating myself up.”
Maybe this is an example of the difference between men and women, but I’m not understanding why this was a horrible experience that you’re beating yourself up over.
Six years ago I fell for a lady in the choir I sing in. After three months of dating, we had sex. I wanted the relationship to go further, she didn’t. I still see this woman sometimes at church.
To you, your relationship was the worst experience of your adult life. My experience with this woman was largely positive, with a somewhat disappointing ending. We’re still friends, and my fiancée has met her.
Sometimes relationships work out. Most of the time they don’t. I don’t beat myself up for being optimistic about where a relationship is going. I don’t beat myself up for wanting to have sex with this woman, or for enjoying the relationship while it lasted.
It sounds like you’ve let your experience deter you from getting into relationships since then. I took a brief break, then got back out there.
Susan61 asked: (#87)
“Can I be celibate for the rest of my life?”
Certainly, but you don’t sound thrilled about that idea.
Susan61 asked: (#87)
“Can I have a casual relationship while I hope to meet someone I can have a real relationship with?”
That depends. By “casual relationship” do you mean casual dating? Or do you mean casual sex?
Casual dating is frequently the precursor to a real relationship. If your goal is a real relationship, I’d highly recommend getting out and dating.
Casual sex tends to interfere with developing a real relationship. Put yourself in your potential partner’s shoes. How would you feel if you were dating a man who had relationship potential, and you discovered that during your first two weeks of dating, he had been having sex with another woman?
Susan61 said: (#87)
“I am attractive and still look pretty good at 50 but I know the odds are stacked high against me,”
I know a lot of men and women in their 50s and 60s who are in serious relationships or getting married.
The odds are stacked against anyone (regardles how young) who has given up trying.
Susan61 said: (#87)
“no I’m not interested in dating a 65 year old.”
I wouldn’t say I was interested in dating a woman 15 years older than me. But when I met an amazing woman who was 16 years older than me, I wasn’t stupid enough to rule her out solely for that reason.
Now she’s my fiancée.
Susan61 89
Yeah, I know Karl. Actually I was in a mini-depression when I posted that, due to a glass of wine after work, hormones, yes, hormones, reading some of the posts on this blog and feeling lonely and a bit overwhelmed with some stuff going on. I’ve snapped out of it and am enjoying some whole wheat pizza I just made. But this particular guy, I dunno. I am friends with a couple of men who dumped me, I mean – good friends. Lifelong friends. This guy was different. Can’t explain in this medium, I’m sure you understand.
Haven’t completely given up trying – in fact have had several suitors in the last year but I am not interested in anything physical with them. I’m hopeful, haven’t thrown in the towel yet and thanks, your post actually buoyed my spirits.
Karina 90
I said this once and I’ll say it again. PLEASE STOP TRYING TO “EDUCATE” WOMEN ON WHAT MEN WANT or what we should do to “tackle” them. Right, sleeping with them without getting any commitment prior is a crap idea – but these days even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much. For example, I slept with my most recent bf after almost 2 months and having been introduced to his family! Did I get much from him afterwards? Yeah, I see him once a week, we keep in touch but I honestly don’t think this is going to blossom. PLEASE EDUCATE MEN TO SEE WOMEN AS HUMAN BEINGS, not treasure hunt games etc. If I am sexually attracted to someone, why do I have to setup some kind of a big challenge for him to get into my pants if that’s exactly where I want him to be?!? Why do I have to wait, and pretend to be somewhat of a prude? Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her. What’s up with that? SOMEONE PLEASE EDUCATE MEN!!!!!
Evan Marc Katz 91
@Karina. Why would I stop trying to educate women on what men want? It’s my entire business model. It’s what they really want to know. And I try to do it with honesty, integrity, compassion and humor. If you’re looking for the person who is going to change how men think, you’re looking at the wrong guy.
nathan 92
“Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her. What’s up with that?”
Karina, there is no single “male perception” out there. We all think and see things differently. I completely agree with you that too many men seem to have tunnel vision around women, and that our society is still littered with sexism.
At the same time, there are also plenty of men who aren’t operating on tunnel vision, and who do see women as much more than sex objects. We also want to have healthy sexual lives like anyone else. Which means that sexual attraction is part of the equation when it comes to dating. Women need to stop assuming that when men are interested in sex with them, it instantly means they’re thinking of nothing else. Why can’t we just admit we all want good sex as part of the equation, and then go from that baseline to figuring out how to respect each others’ needs and boundaries?
Since I read a lot of dating blogs, as well as write one, I get to see the conversations and thinking going on out there. One thing that is pretty clear to me is that more and more women are into casual sex, and don’t seem to have any qualms about dumping guys after sex if they decide they want to move on for what reason. Or keeping guys around to sleep with when they either are single or are not sure about the men they are dating. It’s probably true that more men than women are doing this kind of thing, but the numbers are growing closer to even by the day.
Commitments these days are sometimes so tentative that the slightest blow of wind can bust them up. I tend to be a person who resists hard and fast rules about dating, so I don’t agree with Evan’s waiting rules 100%. What I do agree with, which is behind his rules, is the idea of having clear boundaries. Knowing where you stand, and what you need to feel good about yourself and your relationships, and then operating from there. You still will get hurt sometimes, but much less than if you just float about and respond to any sexy thing showing some interest.
Nicole 93
@Karina, you can only advise people who want advice.
If you find the history of this particular business model, you’ll see that at one point, the business was supposed to be about coaching men, only they weren’t buying.
You take offense b/c you think that giving advice to women means that only women have to do work. All it means here is the the focus of this particular coach is women, and it comes from the perspective of a straight man who dated a lot of women. The point is that this coaching lets you know when you should stop beating your head against the wall with the wrong man, or how you can stop chasing the wrong things. This isn’t your friend telling you what they think men mean, which let’s face it is either just wrong or is sugar-coated to tell you what you want to hear. You know that it takes a lot for a woman to tell another woman to pack it in b/c he’s just not that into you.
Why does it make you so mad? Why should someone pursue a business model that was proven to be a weaker source of income?
Also, it is really empowering to think how much you do control. You can’t control other people but you can control how you respond to it and avoid a lot of wasted time and heartache.
When men’s questions are published, they get told the truth and are advised to make changes.
I think it’s a good advantage to be reminded by a man how men think and how you in this case you shouldn’t rationalize things, b/c I know my friends and I rationalize really ridiculous things. This is like a friendly “snap out of it” that we all need. Your female friends tell you what you want to hear, which is usually not the truth.
Karl R 94
Karina said: (#90)
“PLEASE STOP TRYING TO ‘EDUCATE’ WOMEN ON WHAT MEN WANT” [...] “PLEASE EDUCATE MEN TO SEE WOMEN AS HUMAN BEINGS,”
Evan spends his time educating women about how men think. I spent about four straight years dating different women. To the best of my knowledge, NONE of those women had heard of Evan, or read any of his advice.
Therefore, if my date didn’t feel that spark of chemistry on a first date, I didn’t get a second date. If the woman was 6’0″, I didn’t get a first date (I’m 5’11″), because she would hold out for someone at least 6’2″. My first Match.com date was with a woman who grilled me for 90 minutes.
Evan has been giving women advice for over six years and not one woman has treated me better because of it.
But over the last five years I’ve gotten a lot of benefit from Evan’s advice. I read his advice, figured out how the same advice applied to men, then applied that advice to my own life.
Evan can’t change the way that women (or men) think. He can’t change the way women (or men) treat their dates. But I can change the way I think, and the way I treat my dates.
But you received no benefit from me changing. I received that benefit.
(And to reinforce Nicole’s comment (#93) about Evan’s business model, I just read Evan’s free advice. I didn’t pay for it.)
Karina said: (#90)
“these days even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much.”
Let’s say you introduce a boyfriend to your family, and you have sex with him, but you later discover that he is completely unsuitable to be your husband and/or the father of your children. Do you feel obligated to marry him? Would you rather dump the guy immediately, or marry him and divorce him several years down the road?
His commitment to you is no different than your commitment to him. The difference, in this case, was that he decided that you’re not a good long-term prospect before you made that decision about him. It’s highly likely that the shoe has been on the other foot with some of your previous boyfriends.
Karina said: (#90)
“If I am sexually attracted to someone, why do I have to setup some kind of a big challenge for him to get into my pants if that’s exactly where I want him to be?!?”
You don’t.
You can have sex on the first date, if that’s what you want to do. Regardless of when you have sex with him, it will have almost no effect on whether he eventually dumps you.
To put it another way: if you wait for sex, you’ll still have the same number of ex-boyfriends. You’ll just be reducing the number of ex-boyfriend you’ve had sex with.
Karina said: (#90)
“Why can’t men understand we are not just sex objects? Why is male perception so limited that they just cannot see pass this? They cannot respect a woman after having sex with her.”
If a man sees you as a sex object after sex, it’s because he saw you as a sex object before you had sex. If a man doesn’t respect you after sex, it’s because he didn’t respect you before sex.
And since this seems to bother you, perhaps you might want to take the time to figure out whether a man respects you, or whether he sees you as a sex object before you decide to have sex with him.
Karina 95
@Evan : I completely understand where you’re coming from, I did not mean to direct my post against you – just a general thought I thought I would share.
Obviously men would not buy into this kind of a product, but think the view should be perpetuated in the media. Think they got it all slightly wrong. Media say casual sex is cool for women, and being disrespectful towards women that engage in casual sex is OK for men. Media promote women that start off their careers as prostitutes and porn stars, but also men who cheat and sleep around with these women. I wonder why are there no infidel successful women in the media and half-naked disreputable men? I’m all for sexual freedom, but it’s done in that female-demeaning way and men are ALLOWED to just carry on with their caveman, separationist mindset. Honestly, it is XXI century and men should move on from seeing women as some alien sex beings from Mars that they need to play games with.
@Nathan – thank you for your excellent response. It’s good to hear some men are over this silly behaviour.
“Commitments these days are sometimes so tentative that the slightest blow of wind can bust them up.” – my thoughts exactly. You can wait around, play games and set out challenges for the guy you like, but if he’s not right for you and can’t see pass your sexuality the thing is doomed.
“I tend to be a person who resists hard and fast rules about dating, so I don’t agree with Evan’s waiting rules 100%. What I do agree with, which is behind his rules, is the idea of having clear boundaries. Knowing where you stand, and what you need to feel good about yourself and your relationships, and then operating from there.” That’s what I like about the blog, too. It doesn’t tell women to just be cool at all times, not clingy etc but eventually claim their own ground and speak up.
Ruby 96
Karina #90
<<…even if you see proper signs of commitments it doesn’t even have to mean much>>
The only real sign of commitment is a conversation where the man says he wants to be your boyfriend. Even if a man isn’t seeing other people, it doesn’t mean it’s an official relationship.
Like asking for directions, men are less comfortable asking for help, but maybe that is changing. Judging by the number of men who regularly comment here, I think some men do want advice on understanding women. Christie Hartman, who sometimes comments on this blog, has just published a book on dating for men, so I’m guessing she thinks there is a market for advice for men, written by a woman and trained psychologist. Christie’s advice is excellent, btw!
Karina 97
@Karl: From what you said it seems you think I’m bitter cuz I’ve been taken advantage of, or something along those lines. You’d be surprised to find out *I am* actually disgusted in men I sleep with as one nite stands (happened twice so far) and would NEVER want to see them again. Not because they are unattractive, but cuz I think they’re dogs for sleeping with me so quick and if I look at them afterwards I honestly feel sick to my stomach that I let myself go and let them somehow BEND my strong wil cuz of their sexiness, even if they text or call afterwards asking what happened I just cannot talk to them anymore. I am angry at this culture because I FEEL THIS WAY, because I know I would not be respected if I have sex on first date and try to then have a relationship with a certain person, it frustrates me to no end as I am a very sexually driven young lass! I’m not one of the naive women out there and I usually very honest with myself and would never allow anyone to make me into a booty call. But that is what annoys me – that men cannot have wicked sex with you and bond the same time. They have some pre-conceptions of my self-respect etc. But I want to shag them, and then talk about life, and then sip wine watching the sunset. What’s up with that?
As to this new guy, I still think he likes me but I need more attention than once or twice a week meet up and a phone call every other day. That’s my problem.
Nevertheless Karl – I am grateful for this observation:
“If a man sees you as a sex object after sex, it’s because he saw you as a sex object before you had sex. If a man doesn’t respect you after sex, it’s because he didn’t respect you before sex.”
If this is so – why is there a belief the longer he knows you prior having sex the more likely he is to respect you? I’d love the world to be the way you see it, but I honestly think guys associate respect and luck of thereof to the sex-wait (apparently – the longer the better!) And tis is quite frankly annoying. I have my needs you know! I’m not 18 anymore – 25 now, not a virgin, I know what I ilk and I want to get it quick. Why does it have to hinder my chances for a loving relationship?
Katarina Phang 98
Wow Karina, what an internal conflict you have! Are you saying you don’t like men judging us for having sex too soon (on first dates), yet you can’t help feeling disgusted by these “dogs” who made you want to have sex with them early? It seems to me you are judging yourself here. It’s more of your personal belief than reality. You project on the world based on your belief.
Personally, I don’t hold this to be true and as such the world is responding to me differently to you. Believing is seeing.
Katarina Phang 99
And Karina #90, I actually agree with you. And that’s what I have been doing…there are no rules in terms when to have sex. When it feels right, it feels right. The difference is I don’t believe that men stop respecting us after sex. It never happened to me that way. I would suggest you change that perspective and actually see how guys respond positively to you before or after sex. I have had enough meaningful relationships (committed or casual) after (early) sex.
It’s not the sex, it’s the whole enchilada of your being: your intelligence, personality, wit, character, attitude, kindness, generosity, chemistry, easy-going-ness, etc…
IMO, a woman thinks/believes men see her as a sex object only because that’s actually what she feels about herself deep down. Secure women with high self-esteem don’t feel that way about themselves. We bring a lot to the table, that’s what most men want to know other than sex.
Karl R 100
Karina asked: (#97)
“why is there a belief the longer he knows you prior having sex the more likely he is to respect you?”
Because if I only see you as a sex object, and if I have no respect for you, I will not take you out twice a week for two or three months on the off-chance that we might have sex.
If I’ve stuck around that long, I actually enjoy conversing with you.
Karina said: (#97)
“You’d be surprised to find out *I am* actually disgusted in men I sleep with as one nite stands (happened twice so far) and would NEVER want to see them again. Not because they are unattractive, but cuz I think they’re dogs for sleeping with me so quick”
This is a little difficult to explain, but you’ve just told me what is hindering your chances for a loving relationship.
And it has nothing to do with sex.
I grew up in the Christian church, so my explanation ties into Christian belief. However, the meaningful part is psychology, not theology.
The second part of the great commandment says, “Love others as you love yourself.” As a teenager, this confused me. Based on everything else I had read in the bible, it seemed to me that it should be more holy to love other people more than I loved myself.
Like many teenagers, I suffered from a fair share of self-loathing. To a certain extent, I was aware of this. Therefore, it also occurred to me that it should be easier to obey this commandment if I loved myself less.
Fortunately, I grew up.
I learned how to love myself. I learned how to forgive myself. And then I made an important discovery that made the great commandment make sense:
Until I learned how to love myself, I was incapable of loving others. And by learning how to better forgive myself, I became more capable of forgiving others.
You’re disgusted with yourself for being fallible. Therefore, you’re disgusted with everyone else who is fallible. You’re unable to forgive yourself for making a very human decision (I don’t even necessarily see it as a mistake), so you’re unable to forgive others who made potentially bad decisions.
If a man found you disgusting, would you want to be in a relationship with him? If a man couldn’t forgive you when you made a mistake, would you be able to have a good relationship with him?
Learn to love yourself. Learn to forgive yourself. Until you do, you’re just wasting time.
(By the way, until I actually learned to love myself, I didn’t realize how bad I was at it.)
Karina asked: (#97)
“I honestly feel sick to my stomach that I let myself go and let them somehow BEND my strong wil cuz of their sexiness,”
“I am angry at this culture because I FEEL THIS WAY,”
If you want to ensure that people don’t respect you, keep blaming others for what you choose to do and how you choose to feel.
Before you start making a hundred excuses about how others make you feel, let me give you a personal example.
My fiancée is 16 years older than me. Despite (or because of) Hollywood couples with a similar age spread, there’s a significant social stigma against our relationship.
The majority of people would say there’s something wrong with me for dating her, there’s something wrong with her for dating me, and there’s something seriously wrong with our relationship.
Those people don’t know me. Why should I care what they think?
The people who know me take their cues from me. Seriously. If I was embarrassed about my fiancée’s age, they would assume there was something wrong with it. Since it’s a non-issue to me, they assume it’s no big deal.
nathan 101
Karina, I have only slept with two women on the first date in my life, and I’m over 10 years older than you are. And you know what, the first time, I felt the same sort of shame and guilt about it. Couldn’t even get myself to go out with her again, not because there was anything wrong with her, but because of my own perceptions about sex in general. I had taken in far too much cultural baggage/religious baggage around sex, and essentially had spent my 20s feeling bad about my desires.
It really took a lot of self-reflection to recognize that regardless of how long I choose to wait, I have to feel good about my sexuality. And I have to have a sense of what my boundaries are. In my experience, abut half the time I’m the one slowing things down sexually. Which may sound surprising, but men aren’t always hot and ready for sex at the drop of a hat.
You have to do the work to unlearn the garbage that our culture offers when it comes to sexuality. Men have a different set of garbage to deal with, and we guys need to step up on our end. However, even if you end up meeting a man who has broken through some of that, and actually respects you, it won’t matter if you still think the way you currently do. Karl made some excellent points, as did Katarina. The more secure you are in who you are, the less cultural garbage and the opinions of others will matter. And the more likely you’ll know when to have sex with who without so much concern.
Nicole 102
@Karina,
Waiting to sleep with someone isn’t so much about building a man’s respect for you. It’s about giving yourself time to know why a man is showing interest in you. And honestly, after a lot of first dates, neither person is totally sure about that. As Karl said, a man who only want to sleep with you won’t put in the effort and won’t act like a boyfriend for a several months while you don’t sleep with him, and it will be really obvious, but if you sleep with someone after a first or second date, you haven’t given yourself to weed out the people who aren’t looking for anything serious.
If I have a business and I hire the first person who comes through my door without properly interviewing him, reviewing his resume, and possibly contacting his references, I COULD luck out and get a great employee but I shouldn’t be surprised if the person winds up being lazy, incompetent, and unreliable, b/c I didn’t do enough to figure out what kind of employee he would be.
So you MIGHT luck out and have first date sex with your soul mate and get married and live happily ever after but you haven’t given yourself any chance to learn about him.
And can you blame any man who takes you up on easy sex BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU?
Do you get that this behavior is all about you controlling your own behavior? If you know a man long enough, he’ll show you everything you need to know before you decide how much of yourself to invest, b/c most people just don’t need to go in the the “long con” for sex.
And a relationship that runs its natural course doesn’t turn into a scam on the part of the man or the woman if either party decides this isn’t a keeper for them. It just becomes another former relationship.
If you want a roll in the hay, have it, but don’t put that on the men that you sleep with. No one tricked you into that. That was a choice and you should own it or keep your clothes on. How can an adult woman act like someone she rushes into bed with is somehow at fault for that?
Karina 103
I value all of your opinions guys, you definitely gave me some food for thought. Nevertheless, I don’t entirely agree with the idea that you either get respect or don’t get respect from a guy right from the start and that his outlook doesn’t change. Men do t start to treat you differently once you’ve kept them waiting for a while. What you saying actually defies logic, and going with @nathan’s metaphor, what kind of an employee would appreciate and respect a job that was just given to him, if he did not even have to interview for it first etc? Think about this.
I might well have some internal conflict going on, I’ve also been raised up as a Christian within a very conservative environment, hence the issues. Nevertheless, I’m definitely not delusional/living in my head (as some of you seem to suggest.) I do think there’s still a permission within this society to treat promiscuous women with decreased respect. No woman in power could sleep around and still be respected within this society, and i.e. run a country like Berlusconi in Italy!
So once more- thank you for all your interesting responses.
Karina 104
@Karl “And can you blame any man who takes you up on easy sex BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU?” – you make an argument for men liking you or disliking you regardless of the sex-timing, yet you then go on to say stuff about “easy sex” and taking me up on it ?
What “easy sex”? By saying that you suggest “easy sex” is somewhat of less value that sex the guy has to work for. And again we’re back to the treasure hunt and waiting strategies. You see for me, it’s not that I offer the man some kind of a bargain and he takes that *easy bonus* – I just like him and want to get physical.
But it seems that for the men the “easy sex” (as you see it) is somewhat an obstacle in forming a bond with someone. Even the way you refer to it suggests you’re displeased with women who have sex early on in a relationship, and my question is why? You could have said “early-stage sex” but you choose “easy.”
Also you say: “BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU” again suggesting that I should give him time, construct a game plan so he can FIGURE OUT if I’m worthy? And if I don’t give him that time, I’m somewhat less worthy?
Nicole 105
@Karina,
Women might get dinged more for promiscuity but not everyone has the same attitudes about that. Also, what counts as “slutty” behavior on the part of a woman varies among different groups of people.
You have said that you are from a very conservative religious background, so I’d imagine you’ve been taught to feel a lot more guilty about sex and your sexuality than someone who doesn’t have that same background.
And the flip side is of course, some women are told that any premarital sex is really, really wrong and makes them damaged goods.
So it all matters as to what circles your live in, what is considered the “norm” in those circles, and honestly how much you share with people. You don’t need to tell anyone how many sexual partners you have had. And if you make a choice to have sex, you should not feel guilty for making that choice. But that kind of help is something that a professional could give you.
I think too many people act like sex only benefits men, that is is some big favor that women do for me, to keep them, trap them, etc. That is kind of BS.
I’d bet that people who share your background might judge you the way that you described, but not everyone will.
And I think you’re still missing the point that the advice was to wait for sex so you know why someone is sleeping with you, or at least until you get to a place mentally where you don’t feel guilty for doing it (b/c hey, if you want a one night stand and can handle it, there is no reason not to do it, but don’t expect that man to become your husband simply b/c he slept with you). If you wait to sleep with someone, you have a greater chance of letting yourself find out if he cares about you.
It is true that a man from your background might be a hypocrite who sleeps with you and thinks you are a bad girl (and that he is a bad guy) for it. But he also might just realize after knowing you that you aren’t compatible with him. That doesn’t make him a bad guy. It doesn’t make you a slut. That doesn’t mean he set out to use you and toss you aside. You both moved too fast. You can control how fast YOU move.
Waiting doesn’t guarantee the average guy respects you more. It just lets you know what he really wants, how he really feels, and gives you time to respond in kind. It gives you time to gather the facts you need to make the best decision about what you should do.
As I said before, if you sleep with someone on a first or second date, he might think, that was nice, but she’s really not for me, but you are assuming that he reaches that conclusion b/c you were easy, which is true in some cases and not true in others. You’re just kind of putting the cart before the horse, before either of you knows enough to say, yes, I’d like to be in a relationship with this person.
But this is getting way off the original topic which is just what a man who doesn’t call you back, doesn’t put any effort to see you, etc. is letting you know that he doesn’t want you as a girlfriend, not that he’s too busy, or too stressed, or you need to give him time.
I think the a lot of men are less verbal than women when it comes to these things, so they will TELL you how they feel with their actions, which women then do their darndest to explain away.
Tom 106
@ Nicole 105
Great post - agree fully.
@Karina
Whenever I have a one-night stand I never judge the girl – I’m just so happy that I’m high-fiving strangers. If anything I’m grateful that she picked me at all!
And as Nicole says, it would be hypocritcal to judge her for what I’m doing myself.
SS 107
Agree with Nicole. It’s not about waiting to get “respect” from some random guy (I couldn’t care less about that), it’s about not having one’s mind clouded by sex so she can make a sound decision about his character and whether or not he’s someone she wants for a longer-term relationship.
If I decided, for whatever reason, that I wanted sex early on, I did so recognizing that he might or might not call me the next day. I didn’t sleep with him and then hope he wouldn’t disappear. And when I knew I wanted a serious relationship, I behaved differently… and funny thing is, I never felt that I missed anything by kicking those guys to the curb! I’m GLAD I didn’t give in to temporary lust and sleep with them, because as it turns out, they weren’t the types of guys I really wanted to deal with anyway!
nathan 108
The thing about waiting is that you do it for yourself. So that you can get a sense of who someone is and how they treat you. You have to decide what you can handle in terms of others’ responses, instead of wanting people to react in a certain way after you sleep with them.
In my opinion, waiting won’t prevent someone from leaving you if they decide the relationship isn’t going to work. No one owes anyone a lifelong commitment because they had sex with you. Furthermore, I don’t think someone’s overall level of respect will greatly change if you wait to have sex with them. I do think that the level of respect for personal boundaries might be stronger as a result, but overall, if someone isn’t respectful in the beginning, it probably won’t matter how long you wait.
Karl R 109
Karina said: (#103)
“Men do t start to treat you differently once you’ve kept them waiting for a while.”
I treated my boss differently during my first week than I do now, after working for him for six years. That’s because we know each other better, not because he’s kept me waiting for sex.
Have you ever met a woman who you liked when you first met, but after you got to know her, you thought she was unpleasant to be around? Have you ever met a woman who you thought was okay when you first met her, but after getting to know her, you discovered she was a wonderful person?
Your opinion of these women changed. The way you behaved toward them changed. The way they behaved toward you changed. And it changed without sex being part of the equation.
You’re so fixated on the sex that you’re ignoring the fundamentals of human behavior.
Karina said: (#103)
“going with @nathan’s metaphor, what kind of an employee would appreciate and respect a job that was just given to him, if he did not even have to interview for it first etc?”
Are you suggesting that you would work a job with long hours, low pay, miserable working conditions, where your boss treated you like shit … but if the application and interview process was challenging enough, you’d appreciate and respect that job?
I never interviewed for my current job. The temp agency called me and told me to show up. 9 months later I went from being a temp to being an independent contractor. 2 years later I was hired on permanently. I never applied; I never interviewed.
I love my job. It’s the best job I’ve ever had.
Nicole said: (#102)
“And can you blame any man who takes you up on easy sex BEFORE he has made up his mind about how he feels about YOU?”
Karina asked: (#104)
“@Karl” [...] “– you make an argument for men liking you or disliking you regardless of the sex-timing, yet you then go on to say stuff about ‘easy sex’ and taking me up on it ?”
First of all, please don’t attribute Nicole’s quotes to me.
I never refer to sex as “easy sex”. Sex is either available, or it isn’t.
Karina asked: (#104)
“suggesting that I should give him time, construct a game plan so he can FIGURE OUT if I’m worthy?”
“if I don’t give him that time, I’m somewhat less worthy?”
You’re still quoting Nicole.
However, I believe Nicole is suggesting exactly what she said. He’s trying to make up his mind how he feels about you. Or to put it another way, he’s trying to figure out if you’re compatible.
If you’re trying to ascribe some moralistic “worth” to a person, I suppose you would consider the person who follows strict, conservative moral values more “worthy”.
On the other hand, if you’ve had sex on a first date (like I have) then the woman who is non-judgmental (like my fiancée) is clearly more compatible than the women who thinks I’m a dog (like Karina #97).
Compatibility covers a lot of other things too: intelligence, humor, values, goals, neatness/messiness, activities, etc. So (tying this back to the original topic), when I told a former girlfriend that I never wanted to have kids, and she wanted to have lots of kids, she wisely realized that things wouldn’t work out between us in the long run … even though we liked/respected each other a great deal.
Karina said: (#103)
“I do think there’s still a permission within this society to treat promiscuous women with decreased respect.”
Karina said: (#97)
“I think they’re dogs for sleeping with me so quick” [...] “I honestly feel sick to my stomach that I let myself go and let them somehow BEND my strong wil”
Apparently you think that you have permission to treat yourself with less respect for being promiscuous. You also think that you have permission to treat men with less respect for being promiscuous. So I can certainly believe that you have given yourself permission to treat other women with less respect for being promiscuous.
But only a small portion of society shares your bias.
amy 110
“But for those of us who don’t have dads, big brothers, or linebacker guy pals to fight our battles for us, how about trusting our gut when a man tells us something that sounds off, or doesn’t sit well, and simply avoiding that man?”
@Heather: Yes, exactly.
The outrage at my remarks notwithstanding, I find that men understand other men very well, that men check each other out immediately for “can he take me” potential, and that (Karl) nobody needs to make overt threats. The message is simply that you, the woman, are well-protected. It’s the same reasoning that informs any other kind of security. The first thing you do is to show that you’re protected, and that if a guy’s looking for an easy hit-and-run target, you’re not it. And you do that however you can. If you’ve got money and power, great; if you haven’t, and you’ve got a bunch of big brothers, great; if you have to rely on your gut — well, I hope your gut’s smart and that you’ve got a lot of self-discipline.
@Liz: Read some history, or find some older women (60+) to talk to. Yes, when the norm is that women hold out till there’s some form of commitment, things turn quite vicious against women. (As if they’re not vicious enough already.) Take a look back a the history of sluts, shame, and illegitimacy. (The folk songs are wonderful.) So if you’re advocating that women hold out, you’d better make sure there’s some protection in place for women first. Again, this isn’t Evan’s background, nor have I seen he’s all that interested in women’s history. But he’s unwittingly suggested something that’s led to serious problems for women.
@Karl: Evan left out my post about this, but the legislative stuff you found so outrageous is in effect in administrative form on this campus, and it has transformed the environment here. Preying on students used to be a sort of droit du seigneur for professors. These days it’ll end your career — even the appearance of it will damage, if not end, your career — and good luck finding employment elsewhere as a Verdi specialist, or what have you. Young women are shocked when we older ones tell them what it used to be like. The administrative changes here have everything to do with one woman’s willingness to use employment law against being treated and harassed as a sexual object, and with the rise of women through the administrative ranks to positions of power.
Katarina Phang 111
Respect is about how you expect to be treated. It’s about boundaries. If you respect yourself, it will radiate no matter when you have sex.
Self-respect first and you will get that from everyone around you. Just my experience.
Katarina Phang 112
And Karina, how can you change values you despise if you are actively participating in their perpetuation? (You hate the supposed treatment of “promiscuous women”, yet at the same time you are individually contributing to that despicable act by judging yourself and others who you/society deems promiscuous?)
Can’t you see the major disconnect here? It’s cognitive dissonance in all its glory.
If you hate racism, you won’t be a racist yourself, will you?
Karl R 113
amy said: (#110)
“Read some history, or find some older women (60+) to talk to. Yes, when the norm is that women hold out till there’s some form of commitment, things turn quite vicious against women”
I do read history. And while you’re entitled to your own opinions, you’re not entitled to your own facts.
You can’t point to an effect and claim it’s the cause.
You’re correct about one thing. The situation was rather ugly for women in the past:
In the case of divorce, the law favored the man.
In the case of rape, the law favored the man.
In the case of extramarital sex, the law favored the man.
In the case of premarital sex, the law favored the man.
In the case of prostitution, the law favored the man.
In the case of children born out of wedlock, the law favored the man.
In the case of domestic violence, the law favored the man.
What was the one protection that could shield a woman from the difficulty of having/supporting/raising a child out of wedlock? Avoiding sex until marriage (or at least a betrothal). Who could be the woman’s advocate in the eyes of the law? Her husband.
Try providing some proof for your wild theory (other than “they happened at the same time”).
Old age is not caused by gray hair, wrinkles and senility, no matter how closely linked they are.
amy said: (#110)
“I find that men understand other men very well, that men check each other out immediately for ‘can he take me’ potential, and that (Karl) nobody needs to make overt threats. The message is simply that you, the woman, are well-protected.”
Let me introduce you to another understanding that’s common among men.
You’re a grown woman, and your friend/brother/father/ex-boyfriend is not going to beat me up because we decide to sex, and I decided to dump you later (or immediately).
And if they’re not about to commit assault to avenge your hurt feelings, then I don’t care if your father is King Kong, your brother is a Navy Seal, and your best friends are all professional football players.
Of course they can take me. Why would they bother?
We’re grown-ups, not kids on a playground. Nobody’s going to bloody my nose for making you cry. They might consider me persona non grata, but physical size has nothing to do with social censure.
Karina 114
I don’t understand why most of you guys are being openly rude, suggesting I need professional treatment (cheers @nicole) and that. I honestly wanted to discuss the issue, put my views across and not necessarily get judged by a bunch of randomers. You’re argument seems to be “well, some people are like that and some people are not” – now that’s an excellent point, would have never figured this out without ya folks! Gosh…
amy 115
@Karl: The playground’s never over. You’d think it would be. But it never is. Maybe you wouldn’t be willing to bust a head out of love and a sense of wanting to protect a woman, but I’ve known men well out of their 20s who are and have. And plenty more who’ll make your life difficult if you’re in anything but a metropolis. If you’re a grown-up, incidentally, you’re not going to use a woman for sex and dump her.
“What was the one protection that could shield a woman from the difficulty of having/supporting/raising a child out of wedlock? Avoiding sex until marriage (or at least a betrothal).”
Er…yes, that was the idea. The reality turned out to be something different, which is why the real protection was not her decision to abstain on its own, but that decision plus chaperones and dormitory matrons and a daddy and some real big brothers. It’s what they had instead of rape whistles. What do you think all that chaperoning was about? The opportunity to sell white gloves? It was so the men didn’t rape the young women.
The cause of the viciousness against women: Men wanted sex; women wouldn’t put out. Men behaved badly in response. As soon as women started putting out on demand — thanks largely to the pill — we said goodbye to those vicious midcentury forms of misogyny. No more cocktease, no more prim bitch; the whore/mother business is still around, but faded in importance. No more hunting for fallen women and abusing them as a major trope. No more Cotton-Eyed Joe.
That culture of abstention, incidentally, was why divorcees had such a bad and seamy rap, back in the day. A divorcee was unchaperoned, unprotected, and presumed to be desperate for a man’s protection. She was supposed to be loose, easy prey. She was also a failure; she hadn’t managed to hang on to a man. The deal was she had protection till she married, and then her job was to stay married. Which is why midcentury fiction’s full of sobbing, alcoholic middle-aged divorcees used by men. No protection. No daddy, no law, no money, no social power.
I’ll repeat it: if you’re going to tell women to hold off on sex, you’d best recognize that quite a few men are going to get very nasty about it, and make sure there’s protection for the women. Given that 20% of American women already report having been raped, I’d say “just trust your instincts” isn’t working so hot as protection, and that something stronger is in order.
Nor is it helpful to tell women to hold off, and not to confuse men by “leading them on” (engaging in any form of flirting or ..er.. necking), and then revile women for “not giving men a chance”. Because then you end up blaming them for getting used sexually; or blaming them for being cockteases who were asking for trouble; or blaming them for being frigid and worthless as women.
What you do instead: Put enough power in women’s hands that it becomes expensive, one way or another, to hurt women by fucking them and tossing them. I’m telling you, man, I’ve seen the change on college campuses. All that overblown rape-culture stuff, date-rape, power-abuse business…women are a hell of a lot safer for it, and so are their careers, 20 years down the line. It’s an amazing transformation. It’s made colleges far friendlier to motherhood, too. The idea that women have value and should be treated well — not in some bullshit pedestal way, but with actual respect — it’s made palpable differences. Material differences. But you have got to back it with muscle, or it just doesn’t happen.
“Who could be the woman’s advocate in the eyes of the law? Her husband.”
And this was good for women how? No, you don’t want the husband to be the advocate; you want the woman, or better yet, the legislators themselves.
Karl R 116
amy said: (#115)
“As soon as women started putting out on demand — thanks largely to the pill”
This is the funniest statement that I’ve read all day.
Who are these women who “put out on demand”?
I have not met a single woman who felt obligated to have sex with me just because she was on the pill.
Do you put out on demand when you’re on the pill?
amy said: (#115)
“The playground’s never over. You’d think it would be. But it never is.” [...] “And plenty more who’ll make your life difficult if you’re in anything but a metropolis.”
I live in a metropolis. So apparently the playground is over for tens of millions of men in this country.
I’d recommend moving to a part of the country where people grow up.
amy said: (#115)
“If you’re a grown-up, incidentally, you’re not going to use a woman for sex and dump her.”
You act like all sex with women is non-consensual. In my early 20s I discovered that I could tell a woman, “I’m not interested in a monogamous relationship. I’m only willing to get involved if it’s non-monogamous,” and I still found plenty of women who were interested in sex. They weren’t interested in anything monogamous either.
That’s the entire point of Evan’s article. The men aren’t deceiving the women. They are saying completely truthful things like, “I don’t want a monogamous relationship,” or “I don’t want to settle down,” or “I don’t want a relationship with you.” How is the man “using” the woman when he’s completely honest?
I fully believe that a woman has the right to say “No” to sex. I also believe that she has the right to say “Yes” to sex (provided she’s having sex with another consenting adult). She even has the right to say “Yes” to sex when it’s a bad idea.
So if a woman chooses to have sex with a man who has made no commitment to her, and she gets upset when he later breaks up with her, then I would say that she has exercised her right to make a poor decision about sex. And I’m not going to beat a man up just because a woman later regrets her decision.
I’ll use violence to protect someone from violence, but not for any other reason.
amy,
If you’re a grown up, you need to take responsibility for your own decision to have sex with a man.
You have the right to break up with a man. He has the right to break up with you. That’s equality. It’s still equality if the two of you had sex.
amy said: (#115)
“What do you think all that chaperoning was about?”
It was to prevent horny young men and horny young women from having premarital sex.
You’ve had sex with your boyfriends (without being married to them). Are you suggesting that the same idea never occurred to young women before the 20th century?
I hate to interrupt your historical fiction, but horny teenagers were not invented during the late 20th century.
Nicole 117
@Karina,
I wasn’t trying to take a dig at you.
What I meant is that your post suggested that you felt conflicted about your choices as they related to sex and that it was something that a counselor or other trained person could help you figure out.
Lots of people use therapy and coaching…it’s just a way to find an unbiased person who can help you sort things out in a non-judgmental way. It’s a safe way to discuss things.
It just seems like you felt guilty about certain choices you made, and a professional is the best way to figure that out.
Life coaches, dating coaches, social workers, sex therapists, etc. all help people find answers to things that bother them.
You are availing yourself of the free advice of a dating coach by visiting this blog, as is everyone who reads here so I’m not sure why it would be construed as an insult…
And I think it’s a stretch to say that people were being rude to you…you were not being subjected to any attacks or insults here.
But you were the one who dropped in and decided to tell the dating coach for women not to coach women b/c it was men who needed to change and made a lot of generalizations about what men think about women who sleep with them.
Christine 118
@Katarina #18 & #111
It is refreshing to read what you have to say about this topic – focus on your own well being, share positive enriching moments and have respect for yourself. Each individual allows the world treat them a certain way, and respect is earned by the way you value yourself; its not automatic because you happen to have traditional views (if so, keep your legs crossed).
I am in somewhat of a crossroads in life - upper 40′s, divorced – was in a fairly celibate marriage for WAY too long (stayed in it for the kids, who are still in school). My needs have been unmet for years – my life was basically void of passion and intimacy. Do I want someone to hold at night and have sex with? YES, I have alot pent up. Am I “ready” for a traditional relationship at this moment? NO WAY! Its a 180 degree turn in my mindset from my 20′s when it was all about securing a relationship, being in one and getting married.
I agree with Evan – men are honest if you listen, and you cannot re-interpret or mish-mash and twist what you hear. You just have to listen and be on the same page. If you are NOT, then yes someone will get hurt or you WILL feel used. You can’t hope to be on the same page down the road, you either are or you aren’t. Assumptions and unspoken expectations create much drama and pain.
I am on the opposite side right now, I DON’T want to date a man who says he is looking for a girlfriend (most of the online men who contact me are 7 – 12 years older, kids are grown, and looking for that special “one” to sail into the sunset with – after 2 dates I feel like some want to step it up to boyfriend/girlfriend). Well, I am NOT at that place yet, am 2 yrs out of my divorce, have a full time career, 2 kids, a house to take care of, lots of friends, several sports I enjoy…I am lucky to be fairly content and happy not looking for anyone to “rescue me” per se. Do I want to go thru the rest of my life alone? Nope. Just don’t want to be locked down at the moment, just got my freedom from an awful marriage.
I was introduced to a man a few months ago (who also has a full plate like I do), who said after a few dates, “I AM NOT READY FOR ANYTHING RIGHT NOW”. Well me neither – perfect. Our chemistry after date 2 was off the charts and we have come to enjoy discreet sleepovers, share some activities as friends, and have complete respect for each other in public.
It is positive and enriching for both of us, with laughter and passion, but no drama or neediness. Who knows if it will go anywhere, I don’t have a crystal ball nor do I want one, but we are both getting our needs met because of LISTENING to what each other wanted. I guess its some form of a nonrelationship
Does this make me a slut or promiscuous? Don’t think so, I don’t dress or act that way, I am a professional, a responsible mother, and an adult with basic needs, including sex.
Liz 119
@amy: Read some history? Thanks. I still think it’s ridiculously specious to claim that rapes will increase if women hold off a few months on sex with strangers, just because back when premarital sex was taboo rapes were… more common? Less punishable? They certainly were, but considering the extreme difference in social, political, judicial, and legislative reality between, say, 1920 and today, I don’t see how you can lift that out of historical context and apply it to 2012. Though despite how far we’ve come, we still have a long way to go regarding our society’s preception and treatment of rape, both perpetrators and victims.
I always learned that rape was more about power and violence, rather whether or not guys are horny. But maybe that’s an idea that’s entered Women’s Studies recently, so that’s why the 60+ women haven’t been talking about it.
Katarina Phang 120
Christine, thank you! And I understand completely where you’re coming from. I’m kinda the same. We have been married and we have seen what men (okay one man) can or can’t do. We’re realistic about men’s limitations and as such we are putting more work on ourselves so we can be -somewhat- self-sufficient and not hanging all of our happiness on a man.
Right now I’m happily dating and to be honest, casual dating with a few men on rotation is what I need at the moment and it’s actually more fulfilling than my past (supposedly committed) relationship. I have all the love, sex and adoration I need that one man may not be able to provide.
This is part of my journey of self-discovery. What worked for you at some point may not work for you anymore.
amy 121
@liz: A woman withholding sex is a woman demonstrating power. That’s what makes the guys nuts, not the fact that they’re not getting any.
Look for an instance, anywhere in the world, at any time, of a society in which the usual thing for women to do is to shrug and say “no”, until some sort of commitment emerges, unprotected by law, employment codes, brothers, firearms, threat of excommunication, etc.
Evan Marc Katz 122
I wouldn’t want to live in your world, Amy. It’s all a gender-based power struggle to you. It’s not to us. Sometimes, it’s just about sex. But you go on seeing things through your prism and reminding me that I don’t understand the complexities. I invite women to be a part of my world – the one where men want relationships, can communicate, and will commit.
Ruby 123
I’ve told men that I wanted to wait to get to know them better before having sex. They have all respected my choice, as long as they thought we might have sex eventually. A couple of men have agreed that they wanted to wait a bit also, so we were on the same page. None of them physically attacked me for it, although one didn’t stick around. To say that telling a man that you’d like to wait a while before having sex will incite him to commit rape sounds like something of an illogical assumption to me. As Liz #119 wrote, I’ve always thought of rape as “more about power and violence “, rather than sexual frustration. That’s one reason why elderly women and very young children can be victims of the crime.
Ruby 124
Amy #121
I don’t think the men I’ve dated have seen my wanting to wait as a power grab, and it hasn’t made them “nuts”. I think they’ve seen me as someone who respects herself and wants to act in her own best interests.
Karl R 125
amy said: (#121)
“A woman withholding sex is a woman demonstrating power.”
amy,
Do men a favor. Go embrace your inner power. Become a nun.
In a healthy relationship, sex isn’t about power. Sex is two people connecting, and two people making an effort to make the other person happy.
On Saturday my fiancée didn’t want to have sex. She wasn’t feeling well. I felt concern for her because she wasn’t feeling well. That’s how normal couples relate to each other.
amy,
If I were a better person, I would feel pity for you. Unless you change your world view (and you seem disinclined to try), you will be utterly incapable of having a happy, healthy relationship.
But I’m not a better person … and you’re kind of annoying. Laughing at you comes much more naturally.
M 126
Are the comments by Amy in this thread serious?
I would take a vow of celibacy for 1,000 lifetimes rather than deal with a woman with those beliefs and attitudes toward men. I may be middle age and poor with crippling low self esteem and so lonely I can’t describe it, but I still have a shred of dignity as a man.
Mikael Anders Rosenkrant-Brahe 127
I know this much. Women have so much trouble because they are coddled and made to have a veneer of dishonesty that they only let down amongst their female friends. It is the problem of the insincerity of women that they pretend this is a problem of men because they think that it is men’s challenge to open them up. But, in truth it is the mental disorder of women who think too much of the lessons they learned from fairy tales when they were little girls. Women’s romantic social roles are far more contrived and artificial than men’s. Where men look for someone to reach out to and embrace them and yearn for love. Women require societal lubrication like goods and services to become open to the idea of connecting with another man/person. This of course is not true for all women, but it certainly is at least partially true in degrees with the majority of women.
So, I propose this to you women. If you think men are so unclean and you dislike them so much that you are willing to believe implausible rumors about what men are about like, such as they are players and so they do such and such. . . . Then why don’t you cease dating men and just start dating women. This seems completely intuitive because if you as a woman are so inherently closed off and dishonest to men then perhaps men are not the best choice for you.
I mean you can brush each others hair, refuse intimacy with each other every night and understand each others frigidness because you know you or your partner forgot to bring jewelry, and tell each other girlish lies so you never have to be direct or profoundly connected to each other. It will be just like be a little girl again. Which is what most of you want.
Haggart 128
Oh man, this was sick! Definitely sharing this sucker with friends
. Thank you!
Bambi 129
Are women really STILL this stupid? Didn’t the chastity pageant end with feminism? I am not even a little surprised, enlightened, or….anything by this article, and no other woman should be by now. We do exactly the same things. We are *now* the breadwinners, therefore, we are *no longer* chasing the white picket fence. More recent studies show that we sleep around way more than they do. Stop acting like men are useful for anything other than sex, for your own sake. Society will not adjust the double standards until you stop resisting and restraining yourself to fit the lives. You’re making it hard for women like me who have a backbone and a hell of a sex drive to match….and brains enough to know attachment far less secure than pulling your own.
Foxy 130
Wow this man is providing women with some very sound advice. I personally have never had a problem with men wanting to commit, and usually find that I’m the one who’s usually looking for an exit because the relationship is moving too fast for comfort. When I dated I was always very attentive to what the individual was saying just as Evan had stated in this blog. I took what he said at face value, didn’t read more into it. Seriously if a man really wants you, you would know…they don’t typically fickle. You can feel them hang on to every word you say, and they seem to remember everything about you, even your scent. They talk about the future, marriage, kids, even pets. Men are not scared to commit if they find someone that they really want. If you manage to get a man to commit through anything below that…it becomes obligation, and nobody like that feeling. Believe it or not some men do settle because of reason beyond want and true desire for a female, and frankly it’s not good for either party, and very selfish of the women if you ask me, and should expect the relationship to be far from enjoyable most the time being that it was forced, and nothing feels good forced…I think if your having trouble with relationships…Evan’s material is good place to start.
Foxy 131
One more thing I’d like to add in response to some of the female post..especially the ones that doubt Evans information.if you can’t get a man to commit to you…then your the problem not them… Did you ever find it curious how right after dating you he ends up married with kids??? If you respond to Evan who’s advising your directly from a mans stand point in such a manner I could only imagine how you communicate with your prospect life lover…in theory I doubt you communicate at all, because the whole time your only thinking about how you feel, and what he should be doing for you…wake up and realize you can’t do anything for anyone if the whole time all your thinking about is yourself. It’s no curiosity of mine why he hasn’t wanted anything more but what he’s providing, and frankly he’s doing you a favor by even staying around.
Dena 132
So easily put! This is what happened to me, except he was talking about marriage kids going away then I brought up a movie… But then a few follow up texts, a few days of silence and eventually cancelling our movie followed by the ‘what u up to’ texts and ‘r u not talking to me’… I decided ignoring was my best option, however it’s good to have this info for future reference incase he booty calls again. Its sick to like a guy who isn’t that fussed, but it’s even worse if that guy has fazed me into his dirty black book… Eeew!
Elle 133
My god man, you are a genius. The guy I am hooking up with does exactly this. After two months, this has helped me muster up the courage to end it. I’m not hurt by him, we both just want something different.
Amber Gardner 134
HA! I didn’t realize that stringing her along for his own self interests was considered HONESTY! LOLLL!!!
Lucy 135
I don’t know where this thread came from or how I came across it, but it is so timely.
I have just finished a long and frustrating experience doing exactly this!
It’s true. He never said he was looking for a relationship. I punished him for not showing up ‘as he should’ – namely, as I expected him to.
THANK YOU so much.
Sparkling Emerald 136
Thanks Evan for posting this. In my last incarnation as a single person, I finally learned to let go of men who “weren’t that into me”. One of my girlfriends said I was like a Pez Candy dispenser, and that I spit out men like Pez Candy. But really, all I was doing was refusing to see men who were obviously players and just wanted a booty call. Once I took that stance, I met my 2nd husband. We were married over 20 years, and sadly, are no longer together, but in the beginning, he made it clear that he wanted marriage and children with ME. Unfortunately, I was a bit too focused on his desire for COMMITMENT and family, our intense ATTRACTION to each other, and failed to notice some ways that we were fundamentally INCOMPATIBLE, it took 20 years, but it all blew up in my face when our son left home, as it turns out that was really about the only thing we had in common.
So now, I have it down pat, to ignore men who are obvious commitiphobes (or just don’t want to commit TO ME), I think because I am older, I don’t feel the need for over the moon attraction, (but there has to be SOME attraction obviously), but guaging the long term compatibility is the next skill I need to learn to asses.
Also, the e-mail was NOT a joke. I have a beautiful, smart, fun girlfriend who is a man magnet, but she always rejects the men who want her, and chases after those who don’t, and she has wasted years in relationships as someone’s insignifigant other. They were very honest, saying things like “I don’t want to label our relationship”, or “I don’t want to settle down”, but she seems to not understand what “they really mean”. Keep telling women that when men say that they don’t want to be in a relationship (with you) that’s EXACTLY what they mean. (Because I’m tired of telling them, and maybe if they hear it from a man, they’ll believe me)
Sparkling Emerald 137
EMK Said_________________________________________________________
Nathan: The “attraction” phase of love lasts for 1 1/2 to 3 years. That’s when you’re still riding the dopamine and serotonin high, and are often willing to overlook bad behaviors. It’s when people are still caught in the haze of being “in love” and haven’t stopped to contemplate whether they can really live together, can deal with the mundane day to day things, the decrease in sex drive, the bad moods, the financial woes, the illnesses, the family obligations. I sincerely feel the relationships that are the safest bet to endure are the ones where they spent 2-3 years before getting engaged, not ones where they get married before 2 years and then are shocked to find out that they’re incompatible for the next thirty years. (emphasis mine)
_______________________________
) But when he went on his mid life litany of complaints against me, he listed, past illnesses on my part (I got frozen shoulder which required physical therapy, and that “grossed him out”) problems with our teen son, post meno-pausal difficulties on my part, my mothers 10 year dying experience & how I didn’t handle it well , the 10 times a year I watch TV shows he disapproves of, a minor sulking/eye rolling incident on my part over 20 years ago, a Thanksgiving dinner mis-hap, my siblings coming to visit and stay with us every other year. He talked about how “easy” everything was in the beginning, and how “in love” we were, and now things are difficult, he doesn’t feel “romantically in love with me” so he was bailing. (and yes, he said he stills “love me”, but he’s not “in love with me” )
Exactly ! I never DREAMED I would marry someone I knew less than 2 years, but when I met my 2nd hubby, the booming sound of my bio-time clock (and raging hormones) kicked in, and we married shortly after we met. We actually did manage to be happy for about 12 years (married over 20
I have no bio time clock to worry about now (except maybe getting to old & ill to enjoy a relationship), so if I were to marry again, (not sure if I want to, but would like at least on more LTR before I kick the bucket) I would wait until the oxytocin high wears off, and we’ve been through SOME difficulties together, to see if we could handle it. It’s easy to love someone who is flying high on that new love buzz, is healthy, financially secure, the kids are adorable toddlers, and the in laws are behaving. To make a long term relationship work, you have to be able to handle spousal illness, financial challenges, crazy in-laws, angry teen-agers. If all a person wants is that fairy tale, la-la feeling, then DON’T MARRY. That feeling doesn’t last forever, and having once had it, doesn’t guarantee long term compatibility. Unfortunately, I learned that the hard way.
lucey d 138
Ugh! Always assuming a woman wants more… who cares what HE thinks ladies… do what YOU want!
Sparkling Emerald 139
lucey d – You said “Ugh! Always assuming a woman wants more…”
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Ahem, didn’t you notice that his blog is SPECIFICALLY for women who want to fall in love ? If all you want is a booty call, you don’t need a blog, you can go to any bar in town and get your booty call. So if the thought of a woman who wants to be loved and not just be a booty call makes you go “UGH”, why are you on this blog ?