My Boyfriend Is Staring At and Flirting With Other Women!
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Listen, if anybody in the world would be expected to defend an inappropriate flirt, it’s me. I’ve toed the line for so many years that I don’t even know where the line is anymore. That said, let’s first assume a few things:
Number 1, let’s assume that everything you said about your guy is true. He really does love you, he really does find you attractive, he really does see a future. This establishes conclusion Number 2 – namely, that if a man loves you, he doesn’t want to hurt you. Sure, people hurt each other all the time, but in healthy relationships, the hurt generally comes from an unintentional place.
As always, I speak from experience. I had an ex who didn’t like my flirting. Except she saw flirting at times I wasn’t even flirting. I could be handing 84 cents to a 17-year-old checkout girl at a grocery store in
Counterproductive in that yelling at me to change didn’t really make me want to change. Counterintuitive in that she was trying to stifle the same charm she initially fell for. Talking to strangers isn’t a habit – it’s a personality trait – one that doesn’t go away upon request. And to be clear, I’m an equal opportunity talker. I spent a half hour talking to a very attractive man in her presence at an art gallery, but didn’t get chewed out for it. No, my crime was in talking to someone that my girlfriend felt was threatening – even though the threat was all in her head.
Talking to strangers isn’t a habit-it’s a personality trait- one that doesn’t go away upon request.
So in case you’re a woman reading this and you’re trying to change his personality, save yourself the trouble and just dump him. Ultimately, this is what my girlfriend did – for the betterment of both of us.
Let’s also distinguish the difference between flirting with intention and flirting without intention.
Flirting with intention is when you have a stranger on your lap at a party and you ask for a phone number.
Flirting without intention is when you smile and ask for your waitress’ name. One is inappropriate, the other is benign….
If YOU’RE insecure about being cheated on, you’ll find the waitress thing problematic. If you’re not insecure, there’s no reason to be bothered. This is YOUR issue, not his. Same goes for men who freak out when other guys check out their sexy girlfriends. If you fell for her because she’s sexy, you don’t suddenly tell her to dress like a nun out of your own insecurity. That’s hypocritical and it’s no wonder that creates unnecessary tensions in the relationship.
To bring this back to you, Karen, it sounds to me like you have a good guy on your hands who has a big blind spot. He’s more oblivious than malicious. Which doesn’t mean he’s off the hook. By calling him out, you embarrassed him in a passive-aggressive way. Yes, he deserved it, but there IS a better way of handling it….
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140 Comments »Filed Under Dating, Sex
christine 1
i dated a guy that flirted with waitresses and we got better service. i liked the attention we got. i liked that other women wanted him but he wanted to marry me.
Damie 2
You could do the same back and have him see from personal experience what it feels like. My boyfriend makes comments on occasion about actresses or people on TV, but as soon as I do the same back about some hot guy he change his tune completely, and all of a sudden it’s all about us again, like it should be. Maybe I’m naive but I believe you should be the most important most beautiful person to him, and you should feel the same way back. If not, something’s not quite right.
Bev 3
I’ll tell ya what you do!! You dump him yesterday!! He’s a womanizer and with that goes alot of other stuff you would find out toooo late. Please don’t do this to yourself.
Marc 4
The occasional glance, or harmless flirtation with a waitress to get better service is nothing to worry about, but if he’s following women into stores, it may be time to trade up.
Kat Wilder 5
There’s a huge difference between looking and appreciating another’s beauty, and staring in a lecherous way. Many times, women confuse what’s innocent looking and what’s not, and that speaks to an insecurity.
The big test for me is how he reacts when you say something about it. If you can say to him, “She’s got a nice outfit on” or “She has a nice smile,” etc. and then you can talk about the object of his visual affection, then that opens up a doorway to communicate (including, “I sometimes feel uncomfortable when you look at other women…”)
But if he gets on the defensive (and you’ve mentioned it to him in a nonjudgmental or passive-aggressive way), then that’s a sign that something is amiss, not only with his looking but probably something much bigger. I’d really want to check into that before I got much further into the relationship.
Selena 6
He’s walking with his girlfriend and walks into stores where he spots an attractive woman through the window? I find that very weird, kinda creepy even. Add to that, the one time his gf jokingly points out his gazing–he gets defensive and won’t say anything? I’ll bet his behavior has been pointed out to him before by previous girls he has dated.
I think Evan’s advice is good, but I’d still be very leery of a guy who leers as much as this one. Something about it just seems off.
downtowngal 7
Evan you’re totally off the mark – this guy’s being disrespectful and rude. And you shouldn’t compare your own experiences to your readers; this woman doesn’t sound as if she’s being overly paranoid or has jealously issues. If anything she’s been grappling with it for some time.
There’s a difference between the occasional check-out and going out of your way to stare at other women while you’re with your girlfriend. She even brough it up to him in a nice way and he got defensive. This also doesn’t sound like the night you’re staying in watching movies and telling each other which movie star you think is hot. And he’s not being nice/flirty with other woman – he’s going out of his way to check them out.
In my experience when a guy is interested he wouldn’t do this unless he’s immature or has intimacy issues. I’ve faced this issue before and lots of guys have told me that – esp once you get passed a certain age – they know that ogling other woman is a big no-no if you respect the woman you’re with.
What he’s doing is unacceptable if it makes you feel badly. Try bringing it up again – if he loves you he’l listen. If not that’s a bigger red flag than the ogling.
mrs. vee 8
Aww, Evan, you poor baby… having to deal with someone else’s distorted version of the truth! It sounds to me like you’re still really pissed off about that horrible ex of yours. She must have been a humorless, unlovable birdbrain who’s wallowing in a pile of lonely misery right about now.
Karen, this is a slippery, slippery slope you’re on here. To have a man tell you he loves and wants to marry you is a seductive experience. But then to have him turn around and so openly forget himself and your feelings and, seemingly, set aside his regard for you must hurt you deeply.
When you’re the girl who objects to her mates’ “interest” in other ladies, it’s very easy for the guy to put it on you and call you paranoid.
In these situations, you can drive yourself crazy looking for “proof” that something is wrong. That’s no fun when you’re supposed to be in love and enjoying each other.
So before you go down that road, ask yourself a couple key questions that help take the guesswork out of the whole issue:
First, are you generally a jealous person? i.e. do you often find yourself in relationships with men who bring this reaction out of you? If not, then it most likely IS him and not just in your head.
Even more important than my first question, if he weren’t so into you, would you be so into him? In other words, do you really want to struggle to make it work because you respect and admire this man who gets pulled by an invisible tractor beam towards other women? Can you love a guy who is so motivated to feel attractive to females that he apparently loses self-control?
If you don’t really care that strongly for him, or, rather, if the strongest feeling you have for him is only indignation, then he’s not worth the hassle. Believe me, it will be a tremendous pain in the ass to try to train that reflex out of him. And I doubt it’ll work, like Evan says.
Chances are, he probably never will give you the satisfaction of recognizing his inappropriateness anyway and simply remember you as jealous and paranoid.
Evan Marc Katz 9
As always, I would encourage my favorite readers/posters to consider the totality of the post.
I did NOT give this guy a free pass. I said that his behavior was highly inappropriate. Where my female readers and I part ways is that I actually think that the guy has no idea how he’s coming across.
And that instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater and dumping him, she should try to notify him that he’s unintentionally hurting her.
A starry-eyed gazer isn’t necessarily a lech and a lech isn’t necessarily a womanizer. Although there is definitely a correlation and a slippery slope from lustful looks to infidelity.
But if the guy has exhibited no other signs of poor behavior, he deserves the chance to attempt to reform it – upon which the woman can decide for herself if she can live with his level of inappropriate flirtation.
Markus 10
Hi. My name is Mark. I’m a 38 year old divorced father of 2. I like to appreciate the beauty of the human form, actually all natural physical beauty. Although I’m completely straight I will even mention if a man is unusually attractive. All that said, if I could find “the one” I would make damn sure that I never “over-looked”.
Gigi 11
I think a lot of people muddy the waters by contrasting ogling with cheating. Ogling always gets dismissed by some excuse like: “Well, he may be an ogler, but at least he’d never cheat.”
Ogling by itself, can be hugely inappropriate. My father never once cheated on my mother in their 50+ years of marriage. But he wouldn’t hesitate to blatantly turn his chair in a restaurant so he could stare at a woman he found attractive.
I spent years watching my mother suffer in embarrassed silence while my father swanned around fancying himself a real ladies man, calling waitresses “honey” and stewardesses “dollface”.
He used the same arguments that Evan uses too. He’d complain that my mother was trying to stifle the side of him that she fell in love with. She once confided to me that there was nothing about that side of him she loved at all. She tolerated that he was a schmooze and self-promoting fake in public, and it was his tender, private side when they were alone that she loved.
I love my dad, but it makes me very angry to think of how he treated my mother all those years. And for the record, she did tell him that his behavior hurt her, and he just couldn’t stop himself from flirting and making eyes at other women.
So, Karen, just because your man isn’t a a “womanizer” does not make it OK for him to be the way he is.
Shealagh 12
Evan said: “Instead, find a time when everything’s humming along and say, “I’ve been thinking… Now you have his attention. “…
And that’s when men accuse us women of bringing up their past mistakes out of the blue.
Karen, I’m sorry, but I just don’t think there is a non-threatening or neutral way to bring his flirting/staring up to him. I don’t know of a single real-world scenario where a girl told her boyfriend that his wandering eye was hurting her feelings and he calmly accepted her statements and stopped doing what he was doing.
Personally, I don’t think a girl should have to have this conversation with a guy. Any more than a girl should have to ask her boyfriend to not make those farting noises with his armpit at the dinner table. If he’s behaving that way… if he has to be told…then he’s not ready for a serious relationship. Sounds like your boyfriend has a long way to go.
Like you said, he entertains himself by forcing eye contact with women. Really? The last guy who did tried that with me was a 16-year old gangbanger. The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you want to be there to watch this guy acquire some maturity.
I don’t think anyone here would fault you if you just excused yourself from the relationship as drama-free as possible – without making an issue of his staring – by saying you don’t think it’s a good fit.
downtowngal 13
Whether intended or not – and I know most guys have no idea what they’re doing when they stare at other women – she needs to get across to him somehow that what he’s doing hurts her. And he can’t be defensive about it.
A friend of mine went through this with her husband when they first started dating. He was a bit younger than she, but when he realized how much it hurt her he made a concious effort to stop.
There is no reason why anybody should settle for anything less than total respect in a relationship.
Steve 14
Selena
He’s walking with his girlfriend and walks into stores where he spots an attractive woman through the window? I find that very weird, kinda creepy even. Add to that, the one time his gf jokingly points out his gazing, he gets defensive and won’t say anything? I’ll bet his behavior has been pointed out to him before by previous girls he has dated.
I concur completely with Selena.
In regards to the defensiveness being a sign old dates have brought up the issue before, I have seen this pattern recently for myself. A friend of mine is living with a guy who is a tremendous slob. We aren’t talking about socks on the floor, but Oscar Madison leauge stuff. When she talked to him about it he got very defensive and later indicated that previous girlfriends had brought it up with him. He still hasn’t changed.
I’m with Evan on this, give him one good chance with one non-threatening conversation about it. If he doesn’t change, move on.
christine 15
hi mark,
where do you live? i’m in the chicago area.
christine
Jen from NYC 16
I used to believe that my boyfriend should ONLY lust after me and yeah, look at other girls, but not be turned on by other girls. Yeah, that was so five years ago. As I have grown older, more mature and way more confident with myself, I have come to accept that it would be completely rediculous and unrealistic of me to think my man would not check out other women. Oh, and that my man would not sometimes comment on other women. It is normal, human, and animalisitc. In fact, if he didn’t sometimes say the stupid coments he says about other girls (i.e. she has big boobs or she is pretty) than I would worry. I dated a guy who used to tell me the men we saw in Nordstroms men department were good looking…..yeah that relationship did not work out!
Okay, so where does this all leave Karen? Well Karen, I guess the question is, if you have addressed this like Evan wrote, in a non-judgemental and calm manner, and he continues to practice the same behavior that you find hurtful, than it is time to re-evaluate and perhaps find a guy who tells you are beautiful and marriage material and ALSO respects your wishes. As a social worker and someone who has a lot of experience in speaking with people, even people who are close to me, about sensative topics, it really does work best when you do not attack the person, but rather express your feelings in a rational, calm tone. No one really responds well to being yelled at or criticized. People shut down and stop listening when they are attacked. (Not that I am accusing you of attacking your man.)
Personally, I would so not be okay with my man physically taking me into a store, restaurant, etc to just “check out” how hot a girl is. That crosses the line. I mean,okay lets say you both spot Catherine Zeta Jones. I would run into the restaurant and stare too as she is my woman crush. If he did it once and thought it was funny, than okay. But repeatidly while holding your hand is just bizarre and I 100% think he is aware of what he is doing. In fact, if he is constantly telling you how sexy and beautiful you are….is that out of guilt and making up for his inappropriate behavior? I get mad at my boyfriend sometimes for not telling me enough that I am pretty, sexy, etc, but I think if i heard it all the time, I would feel it was so disengenous. You know? Actions speak volumes over words!!!!
Lastly, and sorry for the novel, but no one known your man like you do. What do your instincts tell you? As a woman, you have the gd given gift of listening to your gut if you chose to pay attention. Let me end by saying (and please all situations are different I know) that I dated this guy who told me constantly how great I was, how I was his soul mate, how pretty I was, and that I was going to be his wife….but he also told me all the time how pretty his sister was, and I would could I not be more like her, and did things that consitently hurt me. Okay, so he told me all the right stuff in order to convince me I was the “one”, but not one of his actions as a boyfriend showed me or made me feel I was the one. I dumped him. It hurt like hell and I was upset for months, but in the end, I found a guy who yeah, looks at other girls (most guys do) but is overall very respectful about it, we can laugh about it, and shows me on a daily basis (and tells me at just the right time) that I am one of the most important people in his life. That is why I go to sleep at night knowing my man loves me, but can check out other girls repsectfully, and I never have to wonder.
Jen
mrs. vee 17
Karen –
Overly flirtatious men like your boyfriend or Gigi’s father are deeply insecure. They’re the male counterparts of those bimbo women who go out in too much makeup and not enough clothing to get noticed. At the end of the day, they just want the attention. They want constant reassurance that they’re likable and desirable, because they can’t generate that sense of self-confidence from within.
Ironically, most flirtatious men consider themselves confident because they’re willing to do what it takes to get the kind of attention they want. But ultimately, what’s more genuinely sexy/confident? the strong silent type who already knows his self-worth? or the self-ingratiating guy who gets in your face and insists you find him endearing?
To me, it’s a no brainer.
So I ‘m not surprised that you’re getting an ick reaction to your boyfriend’s behavior. He’s wearing his insecurity on his sleeve.
Good luck!
Jen from NYC 18
Just a side note, I check out other guys too. We are human. Just because you love someone and commit yourself to one person, does not mean you can turn off the natural instinct to find others attractive. I work in a hospital with a lot of hot doctors, but I am not intentionally following them down the halls to talk to them or staring at them. I flirt, we all flirt but that is where it stops!
Jen
ursula 19
We’re all human. We all look. This has nothing to do with the fact that he may find other women attractive. Most contributors to this thread acknowledge that it’s not the fact he’s attracted to other women that’s a problem.
The issue here is the odd, creepy behavior the guy’s exhibiting, and the underlying immaturity/insecurity that causes him to act the way he does.
Even if he stops his visible behavior upon request, I’d still worry about what’s left in his psyche.
Markus 20
Christine, I’m near Philly.
lorelei 21
Evan, pardon me for saying, but your experience with your ex- who accused you of flirting where you weren’t has nothing to with Karen and her weirdo boyfriend. You seem to be presenting your defense arguments in a fight you’re still having with her in your head. Let it go, my friend, if just for your own peace of mind.
Karen, believe it or not, I’m still going to agree with Evan on the one-warning course of action. Talk to your bf about it just once. It’s the fair thing to do. Even if he may not be a grown-up in the way he reacts to the topic, at least you can remember that you were big about it.
Evan Marc Katz 22
Hey Lorelei,
Before your comment appeared, I wrote you an email about it – except the email bounced back. So before you go off on a rant on another site, why don’t you give me your real email address so I can address you in an adult fashion?
For what it’s worth, I can take constructive criticism on my own website – look around, there’s plenty of dissenting opinion.
What I won’t take, however, is a meanspirited diatribe. And your original comments indicate that you might not be interested in playing nice. If that’s the case, I respect your decision to go to another blog where the host lets his readers insult him vociferously. Not in my house. Disagree all you want, but don’t make it personal. You crossed the line.
Jen From NYC 23
OMG Evan do I have to insult you to get a comment back from my commentary? Just kidding. I think this blog is a great space for readers to express their oppinions. I am so confused, how is this about Evan? If you cannot relate personal experiences to a bloggers question, than how can you possible dispense advice? Right? Please, I tell my personal dating stories all of the time but it is not because I am not over it, or still debating it in my head. We live and learn and teach others by sharing. Letting go is the easy part, it is erasing some of the scary-ass memories we create with people we date that is the hard part!
Jen
lorelei 24
I apologize if my comments that you omitted seemed more insulting than irreverent. I was going for funny, not mean, which is why I’d included the little winky emoticon that also got deleted with the passage.
However, my censored comments simply pointed out that you spent six paragraphs on jealousy and paranoia, which had nothing to do with Karen’s specific plight. That simply indicated to me that you view this blog as a platform to personally vent (at whom, I don’t know) as much as one to enlighten your readers. I didn’t attack your character.
I enjoy the complexity of the topics you discuss and the challenging, provocative way in which you write about them, which is why I was disappointed in your choice to stifle my own sassy form of expression.
I can assure you the e-mail address I provided is a valid one and welcome your thoughts. And I ask you to reconsider posting my original comments for your esteemed readers to judge for themselves.
sheseizereason 25
Whoa. I have no idea what Lorelei could have possibly written to spark this feud happening before our eyes, but can’t we all just get along please? I read Evan’s post closely and, yes, it appears that Evan committed the “grave” sin of veering off onto a long tangential tirade against his ex-girlfriend. (I’d say everything from “Talking to strangers…” to “…This is YOUR issue, not his…” did come off like he was still mentally quarreling with/lecturing the ex, as all that stuff clearly didn’t pertain to Karen.) But so what? I still craft arguments in my head with people I haven’t spoken to in years. I think that’s a fairly common and human thing.
Yes, he’s still mad at his ex. Yes, he took the opportunity to continue making his points as though she’s somewhere out there in the audience. But big deal. It’s HIS blog, which makes it HIS prerogative to vent, and he’s well within his jurisdiction.
jerseygirl 26
The whole point of this is whether Karen is justified in feeling that her boyfriend is being disrespectful towards her and what she should do about it. Evan was trying to relate by bringing up an incident with an ex girlfriend who had a jealousy streak. Honestly, Evan, what this has to do with Karen’s issue I don’t know, but I’ve noticed this pattern with some advice you’ve given on other topics. Perhaps what you’re saying is that this is what many guys believe, whether we gals like it or not. If that’s the case I’m joining a convent because there must be no hope I’ll ever find a guy who will respet me for me. At that rate the human race will die out.
Lyn 27
It sounds to me like your guy is oblivious of his attitude, but also indulges in staring at other women. If he does it, is because it is pleasurefull for him to do so, yet he is oblivious that doing so hurts you. Maybe he thinks it doesnt bother or hurt you since — he already thinks you are beautifull, and obviously admires you above all others — enough to choose you. Maybe he thinks you have nothing to worry about in regards to “competition” so he allows himself to do this in public. Nonetheless, the physical action of staring for 10 minutes, and dragging you into the store where the other beautifull girl is at — is shameless, and rude. It also shows he is oblivious of your feelings, and I find it very egocentric. I think you should talk to him, in a non-threatning manner, and see where it leads you. Ideally, he will stop staring and going out of his way to stare at other women, because his greated indulgence would be to respect you. If he doesn’t, you shouldn’t put up with it. There are a lot of intelligent, witty, silly, smart, handsome men out there, that have probably seen what he does when you guys are together, and probably thought to themselves “damn, if i was him, i would never do that.” Your guy needs to get a grip.
Markus 28
You guys are seriously missing EMK’s point. Let’s sum up. He told the girl to have a level-headed discussion with the guy and if he doesn’t comply, drop the axe. Everything else is window dressing.
Steve 29
Evan;
Aside from the better content, I read blogs to get away from the incivility that seems rampant in types of internet fora. I enjoy the comments on your blog almost as much as your essays. Thanks for drawing a line about being insulting to people ( in this case you ) in your comment section.
mrs. vee 30
As is usually the case with all jealousy tales in relationships , it comes down to perceptions and compatibility.
Evan, would you know if your ex was jealous with all her boyfriends? Or just you?
It could’ve been some friction between your personalities that didn’t allow her to trust YOU in particular.
Case may be the same for Karen.
Lyn 31
Maybe Karen’s bf needs some type of psychological help — it sounds like a compulsive behavior — about Evan flirting and his ex getting upset… and now him using that as an example of “paranoia” versus “normal feelings of disrespected” yes there is a difference, but this guy is physically going out of his way to flirt for long periods of time. Where in that problem is there space to misinterpret his attitude as “girlfriend paranoia.”? Unless there is a medical reason behind his behavior, I don’t see why he is not being labeled as a “jerk.”
Evan Marc Katz 32
While I often filter thru my own experience to make a point, I think my tangent wasn’t on target enough. Oh well. And not to belabor my personal backstory since it really doesn’t matter (really, it doesn’t) – but the ex had a previous boyfriend who was a polyamorist. She was also insecure since she was once overweight. Couple those two factors with my penchant for flirting, and, well, things played out predictably. I hear she’s married, and presumably happy, and I wish her all the best. I also wish she trusted me more. C’est la vie.
sheseizereason 33
To Markus, who said: “You guys are seriously missing EMK’s point. …Everything else is window dressing.”…. Well, to be fair to those of us who veered off topic, there certainly was an awful lot of tangential “window dressing” in EMK’s own post to distract us.
To Lorelei, for some reason, your last comment (#24) didn’t appear until after my last comment (#25). I thought your apology was pretty cool, and your points were valid. I sometimes see some snarkiness going on between commenters in this blog, but in those cases the barbs are never directed at Evan. I have to wonder just how bad your insults had to get before the big guy decided to whip out his cyber red pen.
Jen from NYC 34
Oy oy oy. I know I often simplify things when I make comments about dating, men and women, etc. I guess I really just cannot understand why people make dating to complicated. After a lot of soul searching and painful experiences in my past relationships, I finally came to accept and understand that relationships do not have to be so hard or emotionally draining. I also have come to understand that there is no such thing as the “perfect man” who will never hurt my feelings, look at another woman, or always think of me first. harsh, but true.
Dating is complex because we all come to the table with so many expectations and this romantic belief that our signifigant other should “lives and die” for us only. It just does not work like that. What does work is finding a partner you feel compatible with on many levels. You can never be 100% compatible with anyone.
When it comes to dating. it is one of two things. Actually, 3 things.
1) You just put up with your sig other’s annoying actions because almost everything else outweighs those few annoying things and it really isnt so bad but just annoying
2) You absolutely cannot and will not tolerate a person’s actions, you try to change the person or demand they see your point, which they ultimately never do, which than causes resentment which often leads to breaking up
or
3) You are just so insecure and have absolutely no self-esteem so you keep your mouth shut about what really annoys you because you are afraid to be single again, live in denial about how you feel and pretend you have the best relationship ever, although you feel so unfillfilled and alone.
Honestly, it comes down to what you can/will tolerate. I can tell you that my ex is definately treating his wife the same way he treated me. How do I know? I have heard stories…and it is human nature. We really do not change. Some of us grow, but most people work and thrive in patterns and personalities ultimately do not change. If he was an asshole to me, he is most likely an asshole or at least somewhat of an asshole to her. The difference is, she is accepting to tolerate it, where as I said no freaking way.
So for Karen, she either tolerates it or moves on. Evan moved on because his girlfriend didnt tolerate his flirting. My boyfriend tells me all fo the time I am so patient and understanding where as his ex used to scream at him and put pressue on him because he well, is always late and is not a guy who knows how to hussle if you know what I mean? Well, it bothers me a lot and we talk about it a lot and because I love so many things about him, it does not come between us enough to cause a break-up. His ex couldnt tolerate it and he didnt like the way she handled it, so he dumped her. Yeah, that is the nature of relationships. It is all about what you can handle.
Unfortunately so many people fall into #3 that they just stay in sucky relationship and deal with it even though they may secrertly resent or even hate their spouse or sig other. That sounds fun! The one thing I learned from my parents 37 years of marriage is that my father puts up with a lot more than I ever would from a spouse, but it works for him. Again, if Karen can tolerate the flirting and accpet that she cannot complain about it if her sig other is not going to change, than fabulous! The most annoying thing ever is the person who habitually complains about their boyfriend/girlfriend but choses not to move on. I have no patience for it. And spare me the “We have so much history” line. I lived it and my history is now history.
hunter 35
the walking into stores just to see a woman has got to stop. As for looking, I agree with Evan, the man doesn’ have to be executed, for doing that…….I remember dating a woman, who, would point out, attractive women walking by. I won’t look other places, when, I have someone, I like, with me….
chiara 36
Jen,
I have to disagree with you all the way out there in New York City. People don’t MAKE dating complicated. Dating and mating (and affairs of the heart in general) ARE complicated. If relationships were simple matters, they wouldn’t mean so much when they actually do work. And with all due respect, if your lengthy comment was your idea of the “simple” approach to dating, I have to wonder how long your description of the complex approach would be.
I see so many shades of gray in between the 3 neat little buckets you laid out. For example, Karen- in her current stage of doubt – falls into … what? Bucket#2? Because she’s about to request that the guy she’s dating change himself for her? Because she’ll attempt to try to get him to “see her point”? In your taxonomy of things, that’s the category where she sorta fits the most. But I don’t think she’s intolerant. I think she’s got a valid reason to object to his behavior. Nor do I think she’s been spinelessly hanging out in Bucket #3 all this time just because she’s been letting his behavior slide.
Matters like this are rarely solved without us humans delving into the weeds and, yes, letting things get complicated in our hopes to improve them overall.
Which is why I find this “tell-him-once-and-you’re-done” approach so highly unrealistic. The guy obviously has some deeply ingrained reflexes when it comes to other women. Does anyone here think there’s a snowflake’s chance in hell that he won’t slip up again if she talks to him just the ONCE?
What if he messes up after the first talk, but she knows he’s been trying? Does she dump him on the spot? Keep giving him chances? And if she keeps giving him get-outta-jail-free passes, how long before she becomes a chump for sticking around, while simultaneously becoming a shrew for nagging at him repeatedly that he change? And who wants to bet he accuses her of being jealous/paranoid at least once?
If things were truly simple, she’d know her tolerance level intuitively; she could draw the line now, without having to first feel her boundaries being breached firsthand. But no one is born with a priori knowledge of their limits. Our personal parameters have to be experienced, through trial-and-error, through the risk of getting hurt in the process, and at the sacrifice of the tidy little conceptual boxes we try to organize life into.
So Karen, I’m with Mrs. Vee. Assuming your goal is to have a better-behaved version of your boyfriend in the long term (as opposed to absolute confirmation that you should dump him), is he truly worth it to you? Because you’re about to open a can of worms, where it seems the only certainty is that the solution process is gonna be complicated.
Selena 37
I don’t think dating is all that complicated. We meet someone we are attracted to, we get to know them. If that goes well there is a shiny, limerance period where flaws are either overlooked, or considered diminished in importance. It’s when the “newness” wears down the warts become more noticable.
That’s when we start weighing “the good vs. the bad” when it comes to the relationship. Is the guy who parties alot still charming, or is he just a drunk? Is the girl who is always dressed to the nines and has “good taste” still stylish or bankruptcy waiting to happen? Is the excessively obvious girl-watcher just mildly annoying or downright disrespectful?
Karen’s bf might make an effort to be less obvious if he knows how much it bothers her, or he may not. (I am what I am, sayeth Popeye) But the choice then becomes hers to either stay with him because, for her, his good qualities outweigh the bad or to dump him because she’s sick of the staring and by extention, sick of him.
It’s not complicated, it’s simple.
valerie 38
If all you’re looking at is the end result (either she dumps him or she doesn’t) then I suppose her choice is simple. Keep the guy or kick him to the curb.
But if dating itself were simple, it wouldn’t be an endlessly fascinating topic and this blog would have far fewer readers.
Those who proclaim that dating is just a piece o’ cake do so either out of bravado or a preternatural talent for certainty.
Karen, have we made things crystal clear for you yet?
Selena 39
“Those who proclaim that dating is just a piece o cake do so either out of bravado or a preternatural talent for certainty.”
Hmm. I don’t think I, or anyone else, has proclaimed dating *just a piece o’cake*. Anyone who’s dated a bit (or quite alot!) knows it isn’t so easy to find someone you really click with. Someone with whom you are compatible in the areas of greatest importance to you BOTH. Whatever those may be. That actually involves taking the time to really get to know each other and possibly re-styling your idea of Mr./Ms. Perfect. Or not–depending on the extent of your criteria.
Preternatural talent for certainty? Not much preternatural about some of the situations Evan writes about. The 50-something man who wants to find someone 20 yrs. his junior to have children with is having a hard time. Well, that’s because women that age tend to want to have children with someone closer to their own age. Duh.
Man is losing women because he wants to wait until marriage to have sex. The majority of available women want sex before marriage. Duh.
Women/Men wonder why the people they went out with don’t call them again. They just weren’t that interested, but didn’t want to be rude and say so on the date. Duh.
The girl with the over-the-top oggling bf? My preternatural talent for certainty suggests that if he doesn’t curb this behavior she will dump him. She wrote, “Its made me not want to go places with him anymore.”
How long do you think she’s going to be happy being a shut-in thanks to him? Duh.
Evan’s blog is so fascinating BECAUSE we can see ourselves and our dating duh’s! in the stories of others. Bravado? Nah. But I do like this quote of Erica Jong’s I find applicable:
“Advice is what we ask for when we know the answer, but wish we didn’t.”
karen 40
Wow. First of all, I have to thank the many people who have written and given their advice and thoughts. Many, many of you are quite intuitive. And I say that as an intuitive person, who like many, struggle to be so with her own life.
Each of us come with “baggage” to a relationship. Especially if we are no longer young and in the throws of new loves and life’s experiences.
I’m in my 40′s. I’m divorced with 3 kids. So, I’m not new at this. Nor jaded and skeptical of all I meet.
I’m open-minded and fair, and know we all have our imperfections and issues. And yes, it is a matter of weighing the pro’s and con’s with relationships.
I actually wasn’t looking for a committed relationship when I met this man. I was done with marriage, and figured that dating was suiting me just fine and it was all I needed and wanted.
But, he turned out to be a wonderful man. Who, does have this habit of looking. And no, I don’t like it.
You have all offered such interesting bits of insight. I too wondered if this indicated insecurity and a need to have his ego stroked by acknowledgement of his existence/good looks. Or, was he leering and just simply inappropriate?
Well, the stuff hit the fan the other night at dinner with him. And he went from looking to striking up a conversation with a woman sitting next to him at the bar area we were sitting at, drinking and eating.
And, spoke to her several times over the course of maybe 20 minutes.
Just before this, he had been telling me how much he loved me and missed me during the day, and how I mean everything to him, etc. He was loving, affectionate, attentive…
So why now the attention to this female?
I sat there and told him how uncool he was behaving and how inappropriate his behavior was. Just said it without worrying about the reaction…for once. Without worrying about his ego this time. Without being “careful”. I wasn’t angry. Just stated the facts.
I told him I feel like I’m invisible, and how he’s embarrassing me and hurting me.
He was devastated. His body language changed. He wasn’t defensive, like I had expected. And I was matter-of-fact.
He said he hadn’t realized that he was behaving inappropriately and apologized. But I was done with his company, and we left the restaurant. To make this shorter, we talked and he was mortified. But I was able to make my point very affectively as to the repercussions of his behavior. He admitted to being an insensitive jerk and was horrified that he hurt me. He said he had no idea why he struck up a conversation, and wasn’t trying to flirt, and agreed that if I had done this to him, he would have felt horrible too.
I told him that if this ever happened again, we were through.
karen 41
I do have to say, upon much reflection, that I was so sure of myself when he behaved disrespectfully, that I did get through to him in a manner that Evan replied to me about. Evan had said that men absolutely don’t want to hurt the woman they care about. I believe that is true.
I think that if we are able to state the “facts” and state our comments without yelling and ugly wording, we are way more effective.
I can honestly say that at the time when I reacted, I didn’t care what he thought.
I was quick to react and comment. Not wait and bring it up later. I was so sure of how I was feeling, I believe there was no way he could either deny or be defensive.
I managed to get through to him in the way Evan had described as possible for a man to hear and assimilate, rather than be defensive only. But, it was just pure “luck”.
I’m not mean-spirited and had no desire to “fight back” over this issue. I was so done with his attention to this woman, it was just shooting from the hip response from me.
He’s been apologizing every day since, and has said he will be so aware of how he behaves and what he does now. And that I deserve to be treated with respect, and how he blew it.
He assures me that he’s ready for a commitment and understands that trust and respect are what I need from such a commitment.
I’ve told him that this kind of attention to other woman indicates to me he’s not ready for a relationship, and that’s fine, but we’re through if this is what he needs/wants when we spend time together.
Of course, I’ll see over time if he really “got it”. And he knows clearly what the consequences will be if his attentions wander like that from me again.
Thank you again to all who have written. You had so many amazing insights, that mirrored my own concerns and thoughts about him. Your comments have been very helpful and gave me a sense of peace that I wasn’t feeling paranoid or suffering from lack of self-esteem myself. We all deserve to be treated with respect. And your comments reminded me that my concerns were well-founded.
Evan, thank you for your lengthy comments and guidance and for this blog.
karen 42
Oh, and to the men who have written their thoughts: Thank You! The male perspective is always of great value.
Mrs. Vee, Chiara thank you for your comments.
I do think it’s of value to give a person another chance. Let them know what I am feeling, and see what happens.
I do not however, feel that I am here to change anyone. Especially in my age bracket. This man is a year younger than me. I’m not going to “change” him! I can try to get him to see how his behavior affects me, though. And then it is up to him, to either make the adjustment, or risk losing me.
If this relationship is as important to him as he says, I would hope that he would adjust his behavior so he doesn’t give me the wrong impression, nor hurt me.
He knows the curb is waiting for him if he doesn’t adjust this behavior and hurts me again. That’s all I can do.
And yes, he has been so wonderful the scales are heavily weighed in his favor and he has my heart. But, I won’t stay and be a fool, either.
Thank you all again for your time and words.
valerie 43
Selena: “I don’t think I, or anyone else, has proclaimed dating *just a piece of cake*.”
Selena: “I don’t think dating is all that complicated. …It’s not complicated, it’s simple.”
verbosity 44
Everyone, there’s a big difference between looking at the storefront’s window to see what’s on display, and plastering your face and hands against that window as if to say, “Oh boyoboyoboy! I want that!”
Those who get upset at the former are irrational. Those who get upset at the latter are not.
Selena 45
Valerie,
Piece “o’cake” to me would mean easy, not complicated. How do you define complicated?
Selena:”Anyone who’s dated a bit (or quite alot!) knows it isn’t so easy to find someone you really click with. Someone with whom you are compatible in the areas of greatest importance to you BOTH.” As far as dating goes, you meet some people you hit it off with, others you don’t. I don’t see what’s complicated about that.
We certainly can make dating complicated if we insist on analyzing and over-analyzing every nuance of the other person’s words & behavior. I’ve certainly been guilty of that in the past. But you know, inevitably it was pretty simple–either the interest was there, or it wasn’t–for each of us. Haven’t you found that to be true?
downtowngal 46
Karen, thanks for the update – it’s great to see that you were able to work things out with your boyfriend.
Funny, this communicating with guys thing. Evan and other guys giving advice say to wait until a guy is in a relaxed mood and more receptive to hearing what you have to say. I”ve tried that but got nowhere. Even when he’s receptive to listening, he may go on and repeat the same behaviour, then thinks he’s walking on eggshells because he doesn’t REALIZE what he’s doing when he’s doing it until I tell him – after the fact when I think he’s in a relaxed mood – oh, how passive agressive.
Alternatively you don’t want to completely flip out on the guy. But I think calling him on it in a confident, direct way at the time – just like Karen did – will make him realize what he’s doing to upset you without thinking ‘oh shucks I can’t do ANYTHING right with this girl’.
tipperella 47
Lots of great insight in this poll.
Karen- this goes out to you? Just wanted to follow up and see if your boyfriend lived up to his promise. How are you two doing?
Chanel 48
I used to have the same problem with my boyfriend.
We were together 8 months,and everytime he did it,i always forgave him,hopeing he would eventully change.
At the end,we ended up breaking up.
2 months and 3 weeks later,he asked me back and he’s changed so much.
He told me ha has grew up ALOT and he definatly has.
I can go anywhere with him now,and i don’t have to worry about him glancing at other women,as everyday he tells me how beautiful i am,and how much he loves me.
Now,we’re engaged.
x
caroline mazza 49
I know how you feel. I have one too. But he just started to do it alot more since he’s turned 48. If you think your guy’s bad now wait till he hits midlife crisis. And yes guys have eyed me and hit on me but i never gave them any inclination that i am interested because i’m not. That’s the key.
Get rid of him now he’s not going to get any better especially after a couple of kids and 5 years of marriage under his belt. If women went with every guy that hit on them every day there wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to contend with them all!!
Good Luck
JerseyGirl 50
I think this man is disrsepectful and she should cut ties with him. I don’t understand how a grown man can’t be aware of his own behavior. This isn’t a once-in-while look. He is doing a 360 with his head to look. I think most men understand that checking out other women, when your girlfriend is right there, has the possiblity of being hurtful. Do all women have to settle for so little from their own man to have some kind of relationship?
I also don’t understand how she is expected to pander to his emotional reponse when he clearly isn’t able to do the same. Evan mentions being non-emotional and asking him to change his behavior because we don’t want to make *him* upset. He clearly already made her upset but I guess that doesn’t count for anything?
Of course, I do notice other attractive men however it is such a passing thought that I never use to think to mention it to my boyfriends. Since discovering how men really are, alot of men do make comments about how hot other girls are, I now do the same. If I see a hot guy, I mention it. I only do it because guys feel the need to comment on women and since men are not always very loyal and have wandering eyes, its fighting fire with fire. Probably not completely fair, but then again men in relationships checking out all different kinds of women isn’t fair either. Unfortunetly, men have taught me that they are never happy with what they have.
I HATE being out in public and seeing a man with his own SO or even his family checking me out. Not only do I feel bad for the woman, I don’t feel as if she has a good man who truly values her. Maybe men should focus more on what they have instead of what they don’t?
As for insecurity issues. Well in all honesty, I don’t know how men expect women NOT to be insecure with the amount of time men spend looking at other women, wanting to go to strip clubs; and the various other ways men indirectly give attention to and seek out other women despite having a woman that cares for him.
AJ 51
Hi Karen,
I’m also in my 40′s. Your BF sounds like my ex to a Tee. We married at a young age and then I began noticing his oogling womens breasts in public. It was so embarrassing to me and hurtful. When I mentioned it he vehemently and defensively denied staring and claimed I was paranoid. He said “Im here aren’t I”?
Later on when it continued..as it certainly did continue, he would stare and then rub his eyelashes to try to stop. He would blush. If we were conversing, his mind would wonder onto the female and he would lose his trend of thought.
After a while we both didn’t want to go out much. It progressed then to his wish to go out alone. From things he would say, I knew that when he was out working he was testing the waters with other women by flirting openly.
He confided in me that when we first met he couldn’t stop staring and that he was imagining having sex with me. So I know thats what he was doing with these other women. And Yes, sure, he would always tell me how beautiful I was. But I felt he was comparing me to others.
The years passed. My insecurities grew and we eventually divorced. He became abusive and also claimed he wanted other women. He may have already had affairs. One of his last comments to me was “There are a lot of fish in the sea”.
For years I tried to let it go because he had redeeming qualities and was the father of my children, but I short changed myself.
He now claims he is a self centered jerk by nature (at least he can admit that now). His family knows him to be a compulsive liar about even greater things.
And while I believe his low self esteem is at the core of his problem, he would never consider seeing a therapist then or now. I am just thankful to be released from any more years with him.
Its hard to give advice to someone else. But if there are children involved and this is your second time around I would run away as fast as I can.
AJ
Malky 52
I read these comments in response to the same question last February, when my boyfriend of four months, who stared the same way and for long periods of time while we were out together, broke up with me because I couldn’t relax about this. He contacted me again recently, and we began to see each other. On our first date after many months of being apart, he did the same thing! I DO have experiences being with men who have been unfaithful or commented they are attracted to my friends, etc., but have come to recognize I am repeating unhealthy patterns by attracting men who will treat me so poorly … because it is so familiar … not that I am paranoid! When we got together for the date, he told me he learned a great lesson from me the first time around … to never sacrifice who he is … and he told me he meant his flirtatious side! He is my ex-boyfriend again.
ohiogirl 53
I’m happy i stumbled across this on the internet…
I’m going through something like this and really needed the advice as well.
cwazybabe 54
ok so i just came across this blog and im going through the same deal with my boyfriend except i feel that im the one being insecure when i see another attractive girl and i feel right away that shes going to catch my bf’s attention and hes going to be checking her out. I get a bit jeolous, i start assuming that he’s already starred at her and she starring at him and i get irrate in my head.Bc my boyfriend is very attractive and so am I, (not trying to be cocky at all) but im one of those girls that gets lusted by every man i walk by! even married men and it also discust me too! sometimes right away i assume hes starring and i look at him and im like “WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT”? AND HE’LL be like huh? what are you talking about? so then that puts me on the attack mode right away and he has no idea what im talking about. bottom line i need some advice on how to stop feeling that way when i see another attractive girl and feel intimidated right away i freak out and i take it out on my boyfriend right away thinking hes starring at her when he might not even be!!
cali 55
What a very interesting discussion. I am separated from my boyfriend of three years for a month now. We had this very same problem. We are both overweight, and were hot as hell in our prime, but we are still attractive people. We met when we were 17 and he was too shy to meet me because he said I was too pretty for him. We have had a rocky relationship because of his habit of checking out women with bit breasts. He told me in the beginning he loved women with really big breasts (his exwife is a size EE, I’m 38C). I felt a lot like Karen, felt like we could not go places where young girls are scantily clothed, swimming pools, rivers…it just got so out of control. I’ve told him how it hurts me, how inappropriate it is, and he continues to do it. Big tits are like a magnet to his little eyeballs. It’s so sad to watch because he is making such a fool of himself, I keep reminding him those hot young girls he eyeballs are probably going to want other young hot guys. I ended this relationship because I have a daughter, and I told him that staying with him was too risky because in about 5 years my girl will be a teenager. I asked him what is he going to do if she ends up wearing a D-cup, is he gonna lust for her and sneak peaks at her too? The look on his face was pitiful, he got so flushed and he looked sick.
We broke up because he couldn’t keep his eyes off a 21 year old coworker with great breasts. I understand why he looks at attractive bodies, but I too felt invisible around certain women and I just realized that if he’s doing these hurtful things to me when we’re together, what does he do alone?
I decided to be single and not worry about being alone and starting over this late in life. I’m sure there are men out there who do not want to hurt the person they love, because that’s what it comes down to, they either respect you and your feelings or they don’t. I decided that we should not speak to each other for months, and hopefully someday we can be friends and actually enjoy each other’s company should we bump into each other. Getting my self-confidence back has been very painful, but now I can go places without freaking out, I can talk to whoever I want and not feel ugly about myself.
I decided to lose weight so I can feel better about myself, not for him. First thing he did was lose 15 lbs. and call me 45 days after not hearing a word from him. Deep down I know he’s miserable, because all he has are these fantasies about other women’s bodies, when he could have had me loving him and treating him with decency and respect. He likes women who are IMPOSSIBLE to conquer, even for just one night, and he’s very insecure about his penis size and how he looks naked. His body is aging like mine, but he just can’t stop wanting younger, better, tighter bodies with big tits, so I just suggested why doesn’t he just go find that then?
Thanks everybody for all the advice, this was a very interesting read and its nice to know I’m not alone.
starthrower68 56
First, beware the charmer; based on the words this fella spoke to our o.p., he was laying it on pretty thick. Nice to hear, but one must really look at how sincere such flattery is. Second, say no to disrespect. The o.p. needs to take strong stand against it. Men look at other women because it’s how they’re wired. But the man who truly cares about his girl will be discreet. Again, this guy’s crossing a line. You say to him, “the man I marry will be a man who will respect me, and will consider my feelings. I hope that man is you. However, if not, I will move on so that I’m free to meet that man”. Yes, easier said than done, but we do have to have the courage to face the truth and move on. Auntie star is sympathetic to your pain.
alice 57
Hi evan. I was just looking round the internet to find out more about this subject ‘the wondering eye’ and everything you have said i have experienced.
Well i left my ex nearly 3 week ago as i felt something wasnt right and some of my feelings towards him had changed, i eventually had no respect for him. It started off with sexual comments about other girls, which i didnt like.
He hurt me in many ways which to him were only minor, but to me were big things. Id hate the thought of going shopping or for something to eat as i knew i would catch him gawping at other women and it would make me feel as know i wasnt good enough for him, although he would refer to me as ‘beautifull or gourgess’. But i always felt that the compliments werent good enough and if he felt that way, why was he gawping at other women if i am so attractive to him? Over the top as this sounds it got to the stage of feeling abit sick when id catch him. Basically i felt like shyte!! When i had it out with him he would say im mad, but i knew what i was seing even know it sounded weird and paranoid, it just wasnt me. But other things also made me feel insecure in the relationship like him and his ex still having phone convesations. He also had text messages and phone calls from his bosses daughter who is by the way only two years younger than him. He refered to her ”as a friend” but then his m8 told me they slept together when we were on a break a while back, so that was another reason to make me feel like crap and more insecure. It got to the point of only liking it when we were alone at home where no women were around. And how sad is that, not healthy or what? Your supposed to feel attractive and enjoy one another, not have your back up all the time waiting for his eyes to perve away.
I made myself mad, god knows what my bloody eyes looked like. He would tell me all the time that i was the one, he wanted to marry me, have my babies. All of it. But now i think, no its all about him wasnt it I have the kids stay at home trapped and do the cooking, while he gawps at other women making me feel like crap and eventually has affairs like his dad.
Eventually my heart gave up and i lost respect for him and with no respect, no love. I felt he had none for me as i told him it really hurt me and i felt like i was going mad constantly analysing it and thinking all those women must be better for him than i was.
He had a past of shagging any woman in his path so maybe his inner womansieing ways would never change and he was just kidding himself that he was the faithfull type, He’s was just a ‘jack the lad’ or shall is say ‘cavemen’. But now im single ive set my standards abit higher by only being willing to settle for a guy who meets my expectations and who will make me feel attractive and that i am good enough. Ye he can find women attractive but he doesnt have to bloody gawp. I feel like a weight has been lifted of my shoulders, no more going mad, i feel free. It is hard at first as i still loved him but that doesnt mean its ok and right. Just remember that you aint going mad he just does a good bloody job at making you feel insecure. Set your standards a little higher. You can do better. Whatever you want you can get. Maybe he isnt the captain of your heart after all. Mine wasnt.
cali 58
I know how you feel alice. There’s no life in sitting home alone with your man because that is the only safe place to be. It’s been 2.5 months since my ex and I split up. We finally spoke to each other and it was not good. I looked at some photos he took when I was performing traditional dance with my daughter, and 15 of the photos were zoomed in on this 21 year old married coworker of his, turns out he’s carried a thing for her over a year ago. The photos are so sad, they are zoomed in on her breast and ass area. How gross is that?
I was so heartbroken when we first split, watching the man you love fall in love with somebody else is so humiliating and hurtful. He constantly accused me of messing around on him, it got so bad that I became totally withdrawn from all friends, male relatives, and secluded myself in order to show him I was not doing these things. When I would travel to academic conferences I would receive 20-40 phone calls during day and night checking on me. My ex had a thing for very young, big breasted women, and when any woman wore revealing clothes he would react so strongly. In stores he always stood behind me so I could not see him do it. I knew what type of woman made him feel this way, and could predict his behavior–it really bugged me. When I confronted him about it, he would say things like nothing is gonna happen and say things like “they are married: or I would never do something with another woman because they would stalk him forever because he’s so good in bed. Never once did he mention he would not do that to me because he loved me or because he’s not that type of person.
I’ve finally reached a point where I am excited about my future again, and I realized I had a life before I met him. I picked up where I was before I met him, I do the things I want to do, talk to folks who were once considered “off-limits” and I feel so good about traveling to conferences without checking in and assuring him I’m not cheating.
You’re right about settling standards for potential mates/relationships. I realize I live a busy life as a single mom and grad student, and I settled for less because I was determined to make a relationship work that was simply NEVER going to. Being lonely doesn’t mean I have to force something that should come natural. Just because my ex made bad choices doesn’t mean I deserve to be mistreated and disrespected, nor does it mean all men are like him.
I feel so good today, and as time passes it gets easier and easier…I’m beginning to forget what he looks like and that’s something I never thought would happen.
starthrower68 59
Cali,
It’s sad that we often gain wisdom the hard way, pain inlcuded. One thing I learned is that if a man would not treat you with the same respect and consideration that your friends would treat you, there is a real issue there that needs to be examined. Women often give guys a pass on behavior that we would find unacceptable from friends or even family members. It also sounds like your ex was projecting onto you. A fellow who is critical of other men who are not faithful don’t always mean they are faithful themselves. It can sometimes be a sign they are not. Not male bashing here. People will sometimes come down very critically on others for behaving a certain way as a means to assuage their own guilt.
Glad to hear you’re excited about your future. That’s a good place to be, indeed!
Seductress Within 60
There is NO WAY that
A) this man isn’t aware of what he is doing because
B) if he has ever had a relationship in his life before, it has been pointed out to him.
I wouldn’t bother talking to him about it and hoping to “change” him. He is who he is. Noticing attractive women is normal but looking, and looking again, and looking again and staring and continuing to stare and trying to catch eye contact and following women into stores to prolong the view is indeed rude but more so creepy.
This behavior goes much deeper than what is seen on the surface.
The amount of time he spends on this hobby is excessive and worrisome and hints at some kind of disfunctional addiction.
This dude lives in some kind of fantasy world.
Yeah it may sound harsh, but it’s my 2 cents.
Welfred Whinehouse 61
Everyday, seven-takes, of the same old scene. The world slows down, but my heart beats fast right now. I know this is the part where the end starts. I can’t take it any longer, all we do is linger. ‘Find a way I can tell you. I hate this part right here, I hate this part right here. I just cant take your tears. D:
Malky 62
Hello … how funny, I realize, when I re-read what I wrote back in August. Since then, I ran into him again and agreed to get together … as “friends”. Of course, friends means more than being different from being boy- and girl-friends … it means a real bond. Impossible when the person who pledges to be your “friend” is not to be trusted … still! My “friend” found time to talk to me in the car on his way somewhere, stuck in traffic, and even on Christmas … when he wasn’t already “booked” at a singles event … which is the case nearly every day. He didn’t make plans with me, just waited to see what might … develop. Anyway, I’m going round and round. What Seductress Within said about addiction is so true. My “friend” was a sex addict and glamour photographer before we met, continued seeking “clients” while we were together, and now peruses meetup sites to “sling some mud”, as he calls it. I’m still struggling to make peace with my own past; however, I know that I want to share my life with someone who will care enough about me to care that I feel safe … which is what I told him I needed. He told me that even if he was in a relationship, he’d still want to meet and make new “friends”. Is there any chance we have so cheapened the meaning of the term that it’s filtering into the way we value relationships with others?
Ambrosia 63
One of the things I like about this group discussion is that there seems to be general agreement that when a man over-looks, leers, or ogles it is disrespectful. To be clear we cannot help but notice an attractive person, but leering is different. I have a great boyfriend, we’re a great fit, all except for the part where he ogles at other women and the part where he gets all giddy when a pretty woman talks or flirts with him, when I’m right there. OUCH! This is good fun for him and flattering for the woman he’s ogling, but it does not make me feel warm and fuzzy to watch it.
I appreciated that Evan Marc Katz (EMK) pointed out another perspective that it is possible a woman sees or perceives something as flirting when it is not. This may not be the case many times, but it’s worth considering. I’ve tried to consider this perspective in my case. Even so, the facts still remains that my boyfriend has ogled other women when he is with me. It might be a matter of perspective when actual flirting occurs. After discussions (and arguments) he has gotten better about not ogling women. He has had some slip-ups where he has ogled a few women, and thought I could not see him doing it. Does he do this to hurt me? Sometimes, I think he has a subconscious desire to diminish me. Or does he ogle women because we live in a culture we are bombarded with images of women as sex objects? With premium movie channels and the Internet we have very convenient and easy access to lots of porn. Even without the porn, men watch sports and see scantily clad cheerleaders, or commercials where the middle-aged man wants to trade in his wife for the beautiful young model, or commercials where it’s just cute when a man ogles another woman and his girlfriend just rolls her eyes at it. Is our media brainwashing many men to think that ogling women is adorable and acceptable?
If a woman complains about it, is she a prude? Are women being brainwashed to think they need to get big fake boobs, liposuction, and dye their hair platinum blond, in order to get and keep a mans attention?
If only men could be more understanding that sometimes a woman can get paranoid, even if for no good reason. A little gesture on his part to show her that he is into her and not the other woman would be better than an argument later. I remember seeing a man who cared about his wife’s feelings and I thought very highly of him. I could see that his wife was upset at another woman she thought was getting her husband’s attention. The man didn’t do anything wrong, but instead of thinking his wife was paranoid and insecure, he offered her security by putting his arm around her and stroking her back. He did that little gesture to reassure her. Now that’s what I call a gentleman. Any of those left?
Kenley 64
I don’t think a “great” boyfriend ever knowingly tries to diminish his girlfriend.
Karl R 65
Ambrosia said: (#64)
“If only men could be more understanding that sometimes a woman can get paranoid, even if for no good reason.”
Evan has often pointed out that there’s no point in wishing that men/women would be different than what they are. We can’t change other people. He can’t change other people either. He can only advise people of the changes the can make to themselves.
Ambrosia said: (#64)
“The man didnt do anything wrong, but instead of thinking his wife was paranoid and insecure, he offered her security by putting his arm around her and stroking her back. He did that little gesture to reassure her.”
This man is putting into practice what Evan preaches. Instead of wishing that his wife would be different, he took action to improve the situation. You believe this man was a gentleman. I believe this man was a perceptive and pragmatic individual.
But your anecdote is an excellent example of how a man can easily resolve this kind of situation, and I may make use of this information in the future.
Ambrosia 66
Kenley – You’re absolutely right, and that’s something I must remember. I do not believe he knowingly hurts me. I guess the hard part is remembering at the time I need to remember, but I’ll work on it. Thanks for your comment.
Karl R – How true, there is no point in wishing. I appreciate you pointing that out for me, because I believe it is important for me to realize that.
I find your other comment rather interesting. I agree, the man certainly seemed perceptive. The “pragmatic” comment is interesting for me. After thinking about that comment and seeing the images of the man and woman in my mind a few more times, perhaps the man was pragmatic. I guess I’m a little on the idealistic side. Maybe I’m more than just a little idealistic since you very kindly pointed out two of my idealistic comments. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Karl R 67
Ambrosia, (#64 & #67)
I think it’s human nature to want to idealize/demonize people’s behavior. I recently had a few female friends try to idealize some of my own behavior … in cases when I was specifically acting in my own self interest.
I don’t think your boyfriend is trying to diminish you. I think he enjoys staring at attractive women. I think he doesn’t realize how much it bothers you (though you seem to be correcting that). I think he lacks the foresight to recognize the negative consequences of ogling. Or he may have poor impulse control.
Ogling isn’t always a bad thing. If my girlfriend is naked, and I’m ogling her, she’ll find it “adorable and acceptable”. (I’ve tested this with multiple girlfriends.)
It’s the “OUCH” part that’s unacceptable. As Evan recommended, let him know that you feel hurt when he’s ignoring you and staring at other women. Don’t tell him that he’s being disrespectful. Don’t tell him that he’s subconsciously trying to diminish you. Just tell him that you feel hurt.
If he really is a great boyfriend, he’ll start trying to change his behavior so he doesn’t hurt you.
Ambrosia 68
Karl R,
I think he understands the consequences, because I think I made those fairly clear. I do know he has tried to stop his behavior and I have come to realize this is very difficult for him. I have realized more recently that, as you said, he really seems to have poor impulse control. This recent realization has troubled me lately. I wonder if I will be able to go on vacation with him, go to a public event, or go to a restaurant and be comfortable that he is not going to get that smirk on his face, that twinkle in his eyes, and that sense of excitement when he sees another woman that catches his fancy. I wonder if he will control his behavior for a few months and then slide back to the same behavior pattern. He and I are both divorced and middle-aged. He is not ogling young hot 20 year olds (unless they’re naked and/or have large breasts). He ogles women of his dating age. It makes me feel like he is looking for a mate other than me. Sometime ago, in one of our discussions on this matter, I asked him if he wanted to date other women. He said he did not. I wonder if I’m just convenient. Maybe he really wants that tall pretty platinum blond in the tight jeans, but he just doesn’t have the self-confidence to ask her out. Okay, and lastly, he has ogled me, said I’m hot, and that was fun. But that loses it’s fun when I have to share it with another woman.
I appreciate and will heed your advice. Thanks again.
Stalker 69
Tell him how this makes you feel as though you are second best and that he acts like you are nothing and that is still looking for a significant other when he does this.Tell him that when he does this he becomes less attractive to you and it erodes away the love you have for him.I told my boyfriend exactly this and it worked.He is now more subtle when he looks,not glaringly and embarrassingly obvious about it.All men and women do look but they do so tactfully and tastefully as to not hurt their significant other.When you love someone you do care about these things.A man who loves you puts you first,not his own ego or need to be Mr.Popular in front of other women.If he truly loves you he will not have a nasty ego or a need to be Mr.Popular with anyone but you.If he doesn’t put you first,dump him immediately.
Michelle 70
Evan – Looks like you’ve got some spammers in the comment section. The “Preston” guy is link-dropping, and is a known spammer. So, is the “lenkaalech” poster. How do I know? Because they both tried to leave the EXACT same comments on my WordPress blog.
Whoever is moderating comments should delete these 2 spammers, since they’re link dropping — and one of them (lenkaalech) is link-dropping to a “skinny girl” porn video.
Nicole 71
Hi Karen! Leave him lol You’ll find other great men.. there’s not only one. Also, you already said you’re over marriage and all that crap so it’s kind of easier to just let his inconsiderate freak ass go.
I’m sorry, but if my special someone stared for more then 3 minutes I would dump him immediately and say “go ahead, go get her because you’re free now!”
Maybe a little protective over myself but hey, I rather be with a magnificent, wonderful man that loves me more than staring at people he doesn’t even know than someone who doesn’t and is trash. No matter how many fake compliments or bullshit he does to make me think he’s good when he can’t even do something as simple as respect my feelings and me over all.
Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn’t know or is okay with their special someone disrespecting them and cheating.
Melinda 72
Wow…you guys made some very insightful comments here.
It depends on the level of trust and respect in a relationship. When I first started dating my husband, I noticed that he seemed to be a little bit insecure. This reminds me of an incident about two years ago while we were dating. We went out to a casual restaurant one night. There was this guy sitting by himself. In the car on the way home, I noticed that my husband (then-boyfriend) was being very quiet and sullen. I wondered what the problem was. We had been talkative and having fun while eating dinner, so what could the matter be?
He told me that I’d hurt his feelings by “staring” at the guy sitting alone in the restaurant. My immediate reaction was to be defensive because I was HURT by his accusation. I had done nothing of the sort. I felt misunderstood. I know how it feels to be out with somebody who pays more attention to other girls, so there is no way I would disrespect a person I care about. The guy he accused me of looking at wasn’t even somebody I would consider attractive!
He is a wonderful husband, but his insecurity bothers me. I trust him to be faithful but it seems like he has issues with control sometimes. I believe that he doesn’t really trust me. I have been completely faithful and loyal to him. I have given him no reason to believe that I cannot be trusted. Yet, I feel like he attempts to “catch” me lying all the time. I feel like he is suspicious of me. This was obvious while we were still dating. He is 14 years older. I’m still in university. He is very critical of the way I do things. He treats me like a two-year old. I’m 26.
What do you do if you’re the woman in this situation and your partner believes that you are staring at other men? I fell in love with him immediately, almost the minute I met him. I don’t usually believe in love at first sight but I was bowled over by his gentle demeanor and intelligence. He is also very good-looking. He is my ideal man, but the insecurity and constant criticism of how I behave or do things is a turnoff. I cannot smile or make innocent eye contact with anyone for fear of being accused of staring. I wish he understood how much I love him and that I would never do anything to hurt him.
I realize that he has had unsuccessful relationships with women in the past, including an ex-fiancee who cheated on him with her ex (sort of a weird story there). I’ve had my share of history with bad guys. I HATE my ex-boyfriend. But I’m trying not to let my failed relationships with other people influence my marriage. It is difficult when you have been hurt, but I’m trying to move on. I know that initially he wasn’t really attracted to me in the physical sense, although I think I’m cute. He prefers white women and Latinas. As time went on, I believe he became more open-minded. A pretty girl is a pretty girl…no matter what color her hair, eyes, or skin.
Karen, more power to you. There was some disrespectful behavior on his part and you handled it with class.
sandy 73
HI CWAZYBABE
I totally understand what your saying too. I feel the same way when me and my man are out. We are both attractive but he seems to ogle girls all the time and then he tells me that he wasn’t even looking and that i just think he is because he has done so many times in the past. i instantly get my back up because when i see an attractive girl coming, i automatically think he’s going to ogle. I think we should trust our instincts on this one tho. but i’m happy to have someone elses advice on this because it drives me nuts. Recently my partner and i went on a holiday to Bali, it was horrible as everytime we went out to shop, eat, swim or sightsee, he could not stop staring at other women. On one occasion, we were out on a busy street in Kuta, people everywhere of course, my ptr and i were having a chat, then a good looking girl caught his eye, so he cuts me off mid sentence and does a 360 turn to look at her. i felt so stupid and that whatever i was saying to him did not matter because ‘hang on a minute’ there’s a hot girl walking past. even when we were in the taxi’s he had his eyes hanging out of his head, staring at every blonde that walked passed. if i said something about it, he immediately got defensive and started calling me paranoid, insecure and jealous. We have been together for almost 2 yrs, we’re engaged but i’m not sure if i want to marry him because of this and other reasons. Even when we drivve to the shopping centre in the car from home, and there is girls walking, he looks in his side mirrors of his car to check them out, right in front of me, looks in his rear view mirror. it really hurts my feelings. no wonder we immediately get our backs up as soon as a hot girl walks in. i’m so over it and don’t know if i can tolerate it any longer. These days if i even mention that i’ve noticed him checking out other girls, he gets defensive and tells me i have issues and that he’s tired of me nagging about it.
Claire 74
I googled” my boyfriend is flirting what to do?” Although this blog really helped me, I’m affraid I am very sure he was flirting and the flirt was of the worst kind.
I actually read some aim messages of when he was speaking with girls online. I found logs of conversation on his laptop with at least 4 of them. He was chatting with them the same way he chats with me, and he is really great at making people feel important. He’s “that nice guy”. I love him to death but he also asked one girl for a naked picture that i think she sent and he was telling her how he thought she was the most beautiful woman in the world and how where he was he could not find somebody like her, calling them baby, telling her that he missed her and more… I caught him red-handed but he claims it doesn’t mean anything for him, he did it out of boredom (he’s jobless) and that he won’t do it again. I believe it but i think it went disgustinly far. He says he knows he wants to marry me and that he didn’t think that would affect me that he NEVER had sex with any of them. I know he didn’t but I still feel very betrayed that he would say these things just to please people that don’t matter. I’m scared thinking Isn’t it a preview of my life with him if I marry him? It’s the first time so should I qualify this as mistake?
sandy 75
you know, i did read something coming straight from a guy that, all guys look, all guys are looking for something better. i’d love to here an honest answer to this question from some guys out there. If that’s the case then we might become less fearful and concerned about males staring and looking at other females. It might even make us girls more independent and confident.
sun 76
Hunter: …As for looking, I agree with Evan, the man doesnt have to be executed, for doing that.I remember dating a woman, who, would point out, attractive women walking by. I wont look other places, when, I have someone, I like, with me.
As long as men are pointing out to their girlfriends all the handsome muscular guys they see, I guess it’s fine.
Sayanta 77
Claire, #78-
The fact that you haven’t kicked this guy to the curb yet is extremely depressing and terrifying.
Marie 78
I have been seeing someone over long distance for8 months, a beautiful deepening and very loving communication and times spent together, like I have never had before. Then one night on the phone he said he was going out to dinner with very little detail which was unusual and my guts turned. Previously he had talked about all the women that were after him and ex girlfrends and I had no reaction, but this time I felt very disturbed. That night he didnt text or call as was our usual pattern and in the morning, skyped that he had lost his phone and had it back by the afternoon… saying, I suppose you are angry with me, lost my phone…had a great night., got home at midnight. All thatappeared fine but my stomach didnt settle. I was due to meet him in 4 days and the anxiety had amped up to almost an intolerable level, never had this fear before. Then I observed the open flirting and the lines he used with me being used on waitresses!!…and he sent me away when we had finished dining to meet him down the road while he took his time. I said something about feeling uncomfortable when he held our poor waitress up for at least 10 minutes when she had tables to serve telling her about his assets and then turned to me and said”see, I told you Canadian women are lovely” likeI had bagged her something. That is when my smile dropped and my stomach started again contorting! Anyway, since then the communciation, I love you, miss you has all stopped and he said he wants to cool it abit becasue he is sensing that I am jealous and controlling and they are big issues. We had talked about living together. My main thing is the shock I am in right now at the sudden change…and what I consider disrepectful beahviour, he is always looking at attractive women but he baits me with unnecessary comments. Is he unaware that I am not actually a bloke? Yeterday he mentioned on the phone that a young cleaner was coming…and added…in her bikini…I spat, because to me it was obvious deliberate nonesensical triggering-who does that? Then he turned it on me and made it sound innocent, that she was coming to use the pool and I had made it up in my mind that she was cleaning in her bikini. I swore at him and he has grounded me from contact for 2 weeks for hurting him. Are some guys, so used to their lazy sexual minds and meandering that they just forget common decency..or is he setting me up to be insecure? I relate to everything Karen said…and my guy, God I have never loved someone so much but the change has been very strange. I am younger than him, very attractive and dont have self esteem issues, but trust and loyalty and respect are huge and I have not expereinced anything like this flirty behaviour before staged as being friendly. I have said, look all you want, just not in front of me, flirt all you like when I am not around but I am having dinner with you. He defends he is being friendly to the point where it may end our relationship because he will not admit its a bit in the grey area and has put me on a good behaviour trial.!!!
Kenley 79
As a faithful reader of this blog, I am starting to believe that if you have to write on this blog about a relationship issue, the relationship is not worth saving.
Marie, drop this man. Things are not going to get better. They are going to get worse. He is trying to manipulate you. Don’t let him. Run fast and don’t look back.
Marie 80
Thanks Kenley. It is sad watching someone caught up in their own game and trying to manipulate, I know he is doing that. Joggers are on and I am away as of today. People wiriting on blogs about their relationships…we are dealing with various things ina person-the genuine connection, which then gets mixed and muddeid with ego and insecurities. Trying to work out how to manage those aspects, so that the connection getto flow is part of completely loving a person…and when it gets too hard, yes it is time to hit the ground running.
Marie 81
I ask myself…what is jealousy actually really about, what is the insceurity stemming from?. The feeling of losing someone, of being traded in, of becoming invisible, of not being enough…these feelings are what are evoked when I perceive over oggling, unnecessary comments, overt flirting. It seems to severe a connection I think I have with that person, when he does that. Another thing that comes to mind is pride. My ego does not want another to lwoamn to lookat me andbe thinking, “loser honey, your guy just checked me out”. Many emotions come into play here. The bottom line is, if one is prepared to love and lose, then jealousy is out the window. IfI want to be cherished, respected and adoredI need to look at how that feels and presents itself and if the external reality with my partner is not matching…in any way, then its time to take time out and re-assess. I am learning to not focus on 30 second exchanges taking over a whole relationship experience. If I am good with me, then water of a ducks back to most of the niggly indiscretions. If there is deliberate manipulations occurring, its about his insecurities. The next time I am with a guy, and he does to me again what I have just been putting up with, my next strategy is…exit the place where it is occurring…go to the toilet, excuse myself to make a phone call…anything to break the energy of it. Oh, and for the oggling while I am in their company, I am going to carry a postcard of a gorgeous naked man and at the appropriate time, and to keep humour andlight feelingI will enjoy my time when he is ignoring me. Love to all you girls who suffer from the affliction of feeling ignored and irrelevant a times.!!
Helen 82
Marie: Jealous???
Dump this chump; then any poor woman who comes after you in his affections will become jealous of YOU for having gotten away from such an obvious loser.
losernomore 83
FLIRTING: A form of human interaction between two people expressing a romantic and/or sexual interest. It consists of conversation, body language or brief physical contact.
FLIRTING: Playful behavior intended to arouse sexual interest.
Therefore, kick the modderfugga to the curb, Karen.
jaded 84
guys look and i think most guys do even if they are in a relationship or even if they are in love.. girls look too.. i myself is facing the same problem. I hate it when my boyfriend for almost 2 yrs stare or look at other women. And guys will deny it and make an excuse of me being so paranoid and insecure. I always tell him that even guys with tall, fair, beautiful, almost perfect girlfriends still do the thing of ogling with other women and talk about other women to other people not realizing that it could hurt his partner’s feelings.. And so I told him that those guys can even act or do that when they have perfect girlfriends- i mean physically and how much more you??!!guys always deny..that’s their nature especially when their partners are naggers and paranoid..the more they cannot open up things to you.. the more they deny the truth..they say that there’s nothing wrong with looking or appreciating as long as there’s no cheating involved.. I see the point there.. but still, I hate being in that kind of???????????
wade 85
your all crazy! (ok i didnt read the real long post) anyone consider that this poor guy has ADD, i do, i find myself looking at random stuff all the time, imcurious- including girls. sometimes staring at a complete train wreck reaffirming whats on my arm is making the other men in this mall jealous.
maybe he is excessive compulsive and has to stare at something for like 6.65 seconds before he can turn away.
im just saying lets not just assume this guy is a scumbag, “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar” -Freud
Michelle M 86
I could have written this blog myself. I am in EXACTLY the same situation with a very, very similar man.
Everything in our relationship is great – with the exception of his staring/oogling other women.
I’ve brought it to his attention many times over the past year and a half. It is a very painful situation to be in.
He admits to having a ‘staring problem’ but not only with women – he says that he stares at everyone. I have noticed that he does stare much more at attractive women. I’ve also caught him doing a 180 degree stare from time to time. Again, at an attractive woman.
I’m at the point where I am just about willing to let him go. I love him and he loves me, but having the person you love disrespect you – repeatedly- whether he’s always aware or not – is very painful.
And I also know that men (and women) look at the opposite sex. It’s normal. Glaring/staring/oogling is another story.
Unless it’s happened to you, you have no idea how much it hurts and can destroy an otherwise healthy relationship.
Ambrosia 87
Kenley – #83 As a faithful reader of this blog, I am starting to believe that if you have to write on this blog about a relationship issue, the relationship is not worth saving.
You are absolutely correct!
When I wrote on this blog, I wrote because I knew what I really needed to do, and that was break up with him. I don’t think my ex is a horrible guy. I really think, in my case, it boiled down to his ego-thrills, his warped sense of womanhood, and his inability to empathize. A couple of times I turned the tables on him, not to be revengeful, but to try to get him to understand. Even though my incidents were far minor to his, he got angry at me. He felt ‘not safe’ in the relationship. Well golly gee, I hadn’t felt safe and content in the relationship for two years. Anyway, it’s over for us. I gave up on trying to get him to understand and I gave up with trying to rationalize with someone who mostly evades the issue and evades the truth.
Emm 88
Marie by sounds of it he is either insecure in himself and making his gorgeous girlfriend jealous is making he feel worthy OR he is doing this to make you jealous enough and looking for an excuse to dump u, making out your a bunny boiler!
Michelle like u I have the same. I find it very strange that someone is staring or doing something that they do not realise they are doing… the funny thing is the majority of women who are being gawped at think they are losers anyway for doing that to their girlfreinds in first place…
My fella does it… we have fights about it…. but 2 months ago he finally stopped looking at women… BUT STARTED LOOKING AT MEN INSTEAD!!! I have put this down to a number of things…. he is paranoid about me, which is clear cos on number of occasions he has blown his top thinking i was looking at others, he has insecurities about my past as I had an interest in women years ago…
Think some men do it for the reaction and to make themselves feel better…. and others are disrespectful…. there is nothing wrong with a look, but to keep looking is embarassing… making themselves and you look an idiot….
If they kick off at you doing it, then you know they are playing a game. If they don’t care you looking then don’t think they are that committed yet, and prob think the grass is greener somewhere else…. be sure you tell them to put their walking shoes on as it’s a long way there…… Don’t let anyone make you feel bad about yourself.. if they are still doing it, then they don’t care enough about your feelings….
men are from mars…. women are from venus xx
Lee 89
Wow, I find it bizarre that some people are reacting to Evan’s insight in a rude way. Kind of shows that their ego/pride is attached to the advice they are giving Karen. Regardless, I value Evan’s insight into theirs as it isn’t harsh or critical.
I believe everyone has their own set of deal-breakers. Some people in this situation would end the relationship. And I’m sure a lot of people are pressuring you to do so. But I believe you should go with what feels right to you.
I’m hearing that this is causing you some unease. And you can decide for yourself whether the amount of unease is bearable in this relationship; there are pros and cons in every relationship.
Try to listen to what you intuitively think is correcy, as it sounds that the general ‘vibe’ you get from this situation tells more than the details and circmstances you’ve discussed.
I wish you, and anybody in this situation the best. I just want to add that I was in a similar situation. When i mentioned it to my partner he was surprised. He hadn’t relaised how obvious he was being. And since then he has stopped.
D. 90
My husband does this. It is not the same as looking and moving on. It is a constant search. I do not go anywhere with him anymore. It makes me physically sick in my stomach and emotionally sick when I witness this constant ogling of women. People think he is charming and social, but we have recently discovered that he is Aspergian….on the autistic spectrum. This behavior will never stop. It doesn’t matter that we have discussed this many times. It makes me sick in my soul. This did not show up until our honeymoon and it has never stopped since then. We can’t go anywhere together, including to the grocery store. I stay at home and try to not think about it when he is “shopping”. He will stop and stare for minutes if he thinks a woman does not see him doing it. It is like he is watching someone on television. He will follow a woman around the store, and sometimes physically bump into her…by accident which actually surprises him when it happens. He will follow a woman in the parking lot (even with me there) and go to the opposite area of where we are parked. He will also park directly next to or across from pretty women. He has walked off with our shopping cart side by side with another woman pushing her cart for an entire aisle as I watched him walk away. He is tall and I am not. When we go shopping, he will look over my head to spot other women, even look over the top of the products on the aisle to the next aisle, in Walgreen’s, he looks at the overhead mirror in the back of the store to spot pretty women and will walk away from me and toward them. . He does make eye contact often. I have told him on occasion that the man the woman is with will be punching him out pretty soon if he does not stop staring or following her. My husband will tell you that he does not believe he is doing this. Counselors have looked at ME as the problem and believe HIM. It is just my imagination and he couldn’t possibly be doing this behavior. Look up “Cassandra Syndrome” on the Internet. It actually is not my imagination. and not my fault. Although we are still married, this has ruined our relationship and our marriage. I was married once before for many years and this is not a normal male ” look and be done” experience. If I had a clue about this, I never would have married him. ( some Aspergian’s want to be married and behave wonderfully prior to the wedding. Once they have taken the vows, they allow themselves to go back to being themselves.) You can’t always tell there is a problem until the wedding has been accomplished and marked off their “to do” list. You become a “mother” to them and they will never be a partner for you. If your boyfriend is doing this type of behavior while he is courting you, it will only get worse and you will get sick from it. Get out now and run as fast as you can.
Denise 91
Oh D., I’m so sorry to hear this situation you’re in. I’m not sure what to say, perhaps others have had experience with this type of thing.
I feel badly for you in that this is ‘out of the blue’ and pretty serious behavior–you sound angry, and I can’t say I blame you. I also feel badly for him since this sounds like a serious physical/mental condition.
Ultimately, this may be a situation that you will have to leave. However, if you could also manage to find some sympathy for his condition and situation, that might help overall to keep some positive when going through this.
Good luck…
Karen 92
I was engaged to a guy who adored me but also did this. I told him how it made me feel and although he seemed to stop for a while, once we lived together it came back again and it made me increasingly feel lacking in self worth. His lack of respect also began to come out in other, more unpleasant ways too. I so wish I’d said goodbye after the first time, but I was well and truly hooked. I left after a few months but was a total mess for nearly two years. (And I mean total.) It’s a painful realisation to apprehend that there’s a gap between what someone SAYS and what they DO, but as the old adage states, ‘actions speak louder than words’. I appreciate now that previously I’d been fairly lucky in meeting men who did what they’d said for the most part. Integrity is a key issue in relating.
I’m in agreement with Evan’s advice, given that this guy obviously cares about Karen, but what worries me is that this guy can get lost in this for so *long*, and to the point of following a woman into a shop! If you love someone (and remember love is a *verb* – then you empathise with them and don’t want to hurt their feelings. I’d say watch out you don’t have a red flag with bells on!
shirley 93
Very interesting comments on flirting and ogling. I have suffered this behavior from my partner of 12 yrs. First it was flirting with my girlfriends who he claimed were ‘hitting on him and what can he do?’ then he went into full blown ogling other women while I sat beside him feeling Invisible. Does not matter what age they are twenty or fifty. He will stand close to them with his face and eyes directly planted on theirs almost like inducing a trace in his awesome manliness.
His last weirdness was a phone call while out of town gushing to me how he just saw the most ‘beautiful pussy Ever!’ at a strip bar and I heard later he asked his buddy to call some hookers. And then I find out he got shit kicked at the bar by the strippers ‘boyfriend’ for his verbal ogling while she stripped.
Yeah he loves me. He loves loves loves me. When I hear him speak these words I want to smash him in the face. He claims I am paranoid and insecure but you know what? that is bs. This is not respectful towards our relationship; I mean what kind of real Man behaves this way then tries to make it the woman’s fault? Like I pulled these events out of my fantasy ass?
He is immature and cultured by a male world that makes excuses to sexually objectify women based on the rights of being a MAN. He says, when I approach the topic in a quiet non-threatening manner, “I work hard, I am a Man, I can do what I want”…end of discussion!
I appreciate this forum and the honesty you all have expressed on a topic not usually discussed. thanks!
jenny 94
Searching all over the web on this subject has been interesting. What hits home for me is the validation/excuse of it being a mans nature to flirt and cant be changed. Many things change when we marry and mature. I sold my Firebird for a SUV when I had kids. I changed my spending habits to benefit my family. I cook better meals than when I was singe for the health and well being of my hubby and kids. ETC. It is normal to look but out of respect ie love for your partner it should be kept to a minimum in their company. Men are capable of both self awareness, and awareness of their partners feelings. My husband looks, looks again, and if theyre hot turns around & looks again – while walkng next to me. If there are 3 pretty women in a gym at our boys wrestling tournament by the end of the day I guarantee he will have worked himself into a position of laughing conversation with 2 of them. If we’re walking out of a store side by side and a pretty clerk is stocking a clothes rack suddenly he is 20′ behind me in a laughing interaction with that clerk (twice in 2 days last wk!). He often says egotistical things…like how this one or that one was checking him out. On the flip side if a guy looks at me he gets mad and sarcastic at ME. We just got past an inernet porn addiction – he’s been ‘clean’ over a year. Before that it was inappropriate friendship with a neighbor. I am highly tired of one problem after another. I know, I know…he doesnt respect me.
Denise 95
#96 Jenny
Oh boy, I’m sorry to hear this. It sounds like you’ve stood your ground and have worked through a lot of issues with this man. You’re a strong, loyal woman.
It sounds to me that he has very poor boundaries. I have no idea if is a physiological problem, or he’s just really immature, or both–only a medical professional could determine this. Ultimately, it’s up to you to determine what YOUR boundaries are in regard to what you are willing to work with and accept, and this is a very personal decision with a lot of factors I’m sure. Every ongoing relationship we have is 100% voluntary, on both sides.
All the best of luck…
Jill 96
Karen, your situation mirrors what I’m going through right now. Unfortunately, I too have a boyfriend who can’t resist trying to get noticed when an attractive girl nearby. I’m not sure what it stems from, insecurity? Narcissism? Signs of wanting something new? The other day a beautiful girl and her guy were having dinner at a table next to us. My boyfriend took one look at her and ‘lit up.’ He started talking louder, became more animated, turned the conversation to himself – as though he was on a stage and she was there to see him. I sat there watching this performance, looking at him in disgust. He didn’t even notice I was annoyed until the check came and I immediately headed for the door. When confronted, he apologized and made sure to tell me how he feels, telling me that I am the one and he means nothing by it. Well it hurts. He truly loves me, I’m sure of that but these actions are a bit concerning. And hurtful. He’s never given me any reason to suspect he’s a cheater so for the most part I’ve dismissed it to being harmless. I’m here trying to figure out if the behavior is going to be a deal breaker. I’m in tears, our relationship is truly great and we get along very well otherwise. I absolutely love and adore him! But if can’t contain himself from putting a stranger with a pretty face above his respect for our relationship -and me, then this is a serious problem. We’ve been together a year and a half and so far, all I can gather is that he is insecure and looking for validation. Ego boosting?. Not really a bid deal, we all like to be noticed now and then. I’m not necessarily a jealous type and sign up for the ‘you can’t control what other people do but you are in control of your actions’ attitude. With that, it makes me wonder what he would do if a woman responds to his attention. What next? How does he act when I’m not around? My instincts are kicking in so the emotional vs. rational thing is convoluting my feelings. If he does this more in the future, I will leave. Sad. Hope the men out there realize the pain it causes and that it’s not worth hurting those you love just to fulfill some desire to be liked by a stranger. I wish you luck and hope your guy changes, you seem like a very fair, level-headed, nice and caring girl.
Zann 97
Wow, lots of comments, so I’ll keep mine short. Yes, all men look and most of them are classy and mature enough to do it discretely. But when a guy overtly leers, ogles, and initiates flirtatious chats with other women in the presence of his own woman, that’s something else altogether. To me, it speaks volumes about a man’s insecurity, neediness, self-absorption, and just plain cluelessness. That’s a guy I don’t want as my guy. Sure, to be fair, a woman can calmly and directly let the guy know that his behavior is hurtful and hope that he takes it to heart and changes. Miracles still happen. But my (admittedly crude) estimate is that 99% of the time he already knows that and, in fact, has been told it before by other women who eventually gave him the heave-ho. His words of assurance — “you’re beautiful, you’re so sexy, I’m so lucky” — mean nothing if his actions speak otherwise.
JerseyGirl 98
Zann: “His words of assurance — “you’re beautiful, you’re so sexy, I’m so lucky” — mean nothing if his actions speak otherwise.”
Zann, I couldn’t agree with that statement more.
Problem with our culture is that both men and women are promoted to indulge, indulge, indugle themselves. Especially true of male sexuality where we often hear about pop culture biology and how “it’s just natural”. Yes, it’s natural to notice members of the opposite sex. But it comes down to what is more important to you. And if a man is more interested in oggling, then we know what’s important to him.
On a popular man’s site I read an article about how to be out in public with your girlfriend and use clever ploys to distract her so you could check out other women. What’s the message there? First, women apparently don’t deserve respect. Second, it’s more important to trick your girlfriend into thinking you’re a good man then actually be a good man.
And there is a huge difference between noting that someone is attractive and lusting after them. How many guys are lusting and how many are objectively just noticing? I have to think that more guys are lusting then not. Because they wouldn’t be looking if there wasn’t some lusting.
Which brings me to the whole “she’s just insecure” or “threatening” comments. Yes, women have a right to be insecure or threatened by certain resonable behaviors without it meaning her opinion isn’t worthwhile or is *just* based on “insecurity”. Lets be honest, a man can be with you but if he is looking at another woman, that’s a clear cut sign that he is most likely interested in her. Even if it’s on a purely biolgical level. A woman’s feelings of insecurity is just as much a biological warning sign of her mates interest in another. Of course we all know that most men aren’t going to leave their current partner for the looker. BUT biologically, it’s still a natural threat. Women aren’t mind readers but we are told all day long how much men like other women and their bodies, even by men themselves! So if a man is looking at another woman, it’s reasonable to conclude that he just might be interested in her.
I do disagree with you Zann that a : “all men look and most of them are classy and mature enough to do it discretely.”
I’m not convinced that even discrete looking is that classy or mature. It’s still about what serves someone’s own selfish interests. But that’s my personal opinion. I think most women would be okay with looking if it was a non-sexual “oh she is nice looking” thought then “wow look at those boobs I’d like to lick them”.
InsertPseudonymHere 99
Everyone read this article that Evan linked to on Sunday. It may well be natural or almost reflexive to glance from time to time. But staring extensively (minutes??!) and then going out of his way to approach them? That is someone who is *interested* in these other women.
Karen, it is good you had this talk with him, and he genuinely seems concerned about losing you from what you describe, but the fact is he is pursuing other women when he says (believes ?) is in love with you. At *best* he is confused about how he really feels about you. . at worst this is a prelude to infidelity. You have time and heart invested in this relationship, so maybe it is worth seeing how it all plays out, but I would have told you to run.
Now think about that NY Times article. If he truly values and wants to be with you, he will lose interest in other women, now that he explicitly knows that interest is a threat to something he cares about, his relationship with you.
That Times article is for real. I know because it happened to me. I was someone who would fret over past relationships, wondering “what if” between relationships, wondering what these “shes” were up to, sometimes even when I had started dating other women! I would not call them or anything, but my thoughts turned to them.
During my last relationship, about 4 months in I noticed I wasn’t looking to see if one woman’s car was there when I drove by her house on the way home. I thought about it and realized that I wasn’t thinking about any of my past girlfriends anymore in that “what if” way. I looked around and realized I wasn’t even seeing *women* anymore. They had all become just *people*…except for the one woman who I was deeply in love with and dating. I was somewhat startled, because I had always held a place in my heart for memories. That was how I knew how important the woman I was dating was to me. The woman I was dating broke up with me many months after this, but I do have to thank her for clearing out my attic. I no longer am attracted to my past and only look to the future.
Maybe where I ended up is extreme. The fact is though, I went through what that Times article described. I was concerned about threats to what I truly valued and on a subconscious level and I learned to remove that threat. When I learned of other things she found threatening I worked consciously to remove them too. I am sure every man can do this. *If* he doesn’t remove threats from his relationship with you, then he does not value it as much as he thinks. *If* he continues to flirt you will be at risk that one day he will act further than he means to when you are not around.
It sounds like you are already on track to end it if needed. Good luck.
Melissa 100
That phone call about the nicest looking pussy is vulgar beyond description. Yet, sometimes I also think it is natural to some men to think this way. I have heard it said all men look and if it is true then is it possible that there is a flaw in the whole specie? That, if true, something needs to be done to wipe this behaviour out as we do with virusus, TB, etc.
Men, please help me out, tell me how can we show you that oogling is not exceptable behaviour. In my country centuries ago if a man even so much as looked at a women outside of his rank he was staked. Today that may be a little harsh. What if we treated oogling like smoking, and had anti campaigns about it? Some people said it is a personality trait. So do we need to institutanalize the people who go to far and drug them as we do with many behaviours that hurts other people? Please understand, I am seriously asking advice for for how to stop this behaviour as it HURTS so many.
Cat 101
Melissa, #102, I’m afraid if you “institutionalize” all the flirts, there will be no one left to date! Seriously, though, you can’t “stop this behavior” you can only change how you react to it.
Melissa 102
I guess you may be concerned about some of my softer suggestions so I’ll forego some of the more hardball ones. Still, my question is how do we deal with inappropriate behavior effectively?
I am a teacher of young students. I teach my male students how to behave and alsoy female students. Perhaps the right educstion is the key.
Karl R 103
Melissa asked: (#102)
“I am seriously asking advice for for how to stop this behaviour as it HURTS so many.”
My brother and I are both straight. If you call my brother gay, he’ll be upset and angry. If you call me gay (or worse), I’ll shrug it off and go about my business. It’s the same inappropriate behavior, but it upsets him, while I’ll forget about it.
As adults, we choose whether we are hurt by others. In order to hurt me, you generally have to do bodily harm. I don’t understand why you choose to be hurt by so many other things.
Melissa asked: (#104)
“my question is how do we deal with inappropriate behavior effectively?”
First, recognize that their inappropriate behavior is a reflection upon them, not you. That way you’ll no longer be hurt by it.
Second, don’t associate with the people you feel behave inappropriately. Don’t date them. Don’t socialize with them. It’s very effective.
Melissa asked: (#104)
“I guess you may be concerned about some of my softer suggestions so I’ll forego some of the more hardball ones.”
You think institutionalizing and drugging people for boorish behavior is a “softer” suggestion, and you think impaling a boor on a stake “may be a little harsh.”
You’re coming across as being far worse than the men you’re complaining about.
j 104
Just be a cool g/f and have a threesome with some of these and even a foursome with another couple so you have fun too! Give a kid too much candy and they realize they don’t have to have it. My g/f will let me bring any girl home to have sex with because shes bi and ever since we had our rendezvous I rarely look at other girls…why?? Because I know I can have them.. We all want what we can’t have. Give him a taste and you too
starthrower68 105
Evidently it’s now starting in Middle School:
http://www.someecards.com/2011/06/03/middle-schoolers-break-up-over-birthday-sex-and-tet-tets#comments
Marilyn 106
It doesn’t get better, it only gets worse. My husband and I have been married forever: we are 59 years old. He ogled. Everywhere. Grocery store, music festivals, funeral homes: scans the area for an attractive woman and looks at specific body parts, pornographically..makes eye contact and smiles to let them know he likes them. I don’t even want to leave the house with him anymore. Add to the ogling the age factor: we all know a woman is devalued in our culture for aging. I feel ashamed for it….and my husband is NOT ogling other 60 year old women. I look damn good…I am a “former” beautiful sexy woman..he couldn’t say it enough when we were younger. We have been through this same painful discussion many many times aaa the way he stares has ramped up…to the point where he does the most intimate thing…making eye contact and smiling.
Last week we were taking a walk with our dog by the lake where there are always teenagers in bikinis or short shorts hanging out. I held my breath as we walked by a group if them. Knowing what would happen…but I kept talking, telling him what I was telling him, and when he whipped his head around to get that good second stare in, I stopped talking: this is a cue he knows well…and he has enough disrespect for me, I feel, to get irritated with ME and say “what? I’m turning around to look st you so you know I’m listening to you”
And I accepted that and said nothing.
This is a frequent occurrence , that he says something like that to me.
I have had enough.
It isn’t that I don’t look st really good looking men(my husband us NOT one) and “appreciate them”…I do it in my head. My husband seems to think he has to let the women know what he us thinking.
Here’s the really bad part if all of this: as I said earlier, this has been an issue for a long time. Every time we have gone through this he has adamantly insisted that my perceptions are WRONG..that he just looks at people (PEOPLE)who pass in his line of vision…like anyone does…that he is not staring at anyone…I would eventually say how do I know you are not lying? He would be on his KNEES swearing that he has NEVER, not even once, lied to me in our lifelong relationship…EVER.
So, the other night, during this latest difficulty with his behavior, where I approached the while thing unemotionally, unlike past times, he finally blurted out SO I LIE ABOUT IT..IM A LIAR.
Wow. Years if being told my perceptions are totally wrong: wanting to believe him: he has been lying.
What else does he lie about?
I am extremely depressed about this. I feel like I have no choice but to leave at this point. He just wants everything to go back to “normal”….and I don’t even want to leave the house with him.
Any takers?
HLM 107
I am in the exact same situation as this lady and it is absolutely crushing me. He used to make me believe when he would tell me all these things about how he felt about me. Now when he tells me that my response is, just keep telling yourself that! I have had several conversations with him in regard to this and it has not changed. Now he does and tries to hide it and thinks i dont notice it but i still see it. This wasnt this way in the beginning of our relationship and a year later i have seen it for about the last 6 months. i dont know what to do about it and i am so hurt and have had my confidence and self esteem beet uu by it. i dont want to even go into public with him anymore cause i know its going to happen and i just want to scream when he does it. i am a single mother of two and 44 years old and i dont feel that i should be going thru this ever and especially at this stage of my life.
Elizabeth 108
I am a fifty year old divorced woman with much life experience. Your boyfriend’s
behaviour is not condusive to long term contentment. It will distance your intimacy because he is not fully present. Overtime, it will annoy you and ultimately make you angry. Your own self esteem and respect for him will diminsh.
Your boyfriend may be fun, but there is something missing there.
stedoesorne 109
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Xanzie 110
I have the same story. I am 27, petit, size 8, they said im attractive and my boyfriend is 44. He is very nice, loving, sweet, caring and he is just very good.
It is not just the first time he has done it but last night was worst. We went into a restaurant and there is this like 19 years old lady with really tight very short shorts with a tight top on. These lady went to get some drinks and my boyfriend saw her. Stared at her until she went back to her table. I felt very angry! I did not say anything then.
There were ladies passing by our table goin to the toilet and he stares at them too ( if they are fit and sexy ). I told him ” you know, your eyes are everywhere “. The place was really very busy and he said ” there are a lot going on “. I assumed he meant very busy.
I told him again but your eyes are everywhere where there is a young sexy girl. He just said ” where? “. He then said ” if I look at them it doesn’t mean I fancy them”.
I don’t know if he notices when he is looking at these girls or just pretending. I really don’t know how to open it up again with him.
Diana 111
I have a similar problem, but perhaps more serious. I apologize for spelling mistakes, but I’m from another country and I am using a translator. I met a wonderful man through a website where I keep my photos. I am very lush and have many visitors on my page, where men make many compliments.
This man I met was from another country and fell in love over the Internet. We talked every day, all the time at work and at home. Although the Internet declarations of love and we talked a lot when he was about to come to my country to know me, got a little scared that I was not exactly the same person from the internet, be a trap or something like that. And I told him I loved him and he said yes, but they were only words and he only had assurance of my love personally. Ok He swallowed his fear and came to meet me. It was wonderful, but he only spent four days with me.
We met and we were so happy at the hotel. He is sweet polite, romantic, sexy, beautiful, gentle, intelligent and extremely sociable. After being together in the hotel Diaz who he wanted to marry me, we’d be together forever, that I was beautiful, the ideal woman for them and everything. However on the fourth day there were some problems (not me, but in his life) and at night when we were dining at the hotel, he could not stop looking for a woman. He’d go out of the restaurant and turned his gaze to me, when she appeared again he was mesmerized by it. And then not to be part of the situation I said to him: “you’re beautiful” and he told me back “no, you’re beautiful.” The problem is that he began to speak looking at me and ended the sentence looking at her. And it was a good time, because I’m too sweet to commit any rudeness, especially with someone I like and I just swallow the situation. Until I insisted saying that he was very handsome (he does not think, but it really is) and then he said “I bet this girl does not think the same thing (she was passing by our table).” Actually she was not looking for him, he is insistently that he was looking for her.
At first I thought it was just force of habit, because it is much observed of all. He always looks at everything around us. He also looks at other girls, but I do not care, I think a normal man when looking quickly find something interesting or beautiful. But what surprised me and bothered me was the insistence with which he looked at her. Mainly because I am a woman who call too much attention where I go, all look and he does not care, he is proud. So I wondered: Is it just me or for others to see it be with a beautiful woman, but in fact his desire to be with others?
Then three months passed without seeing us, until I went to spend a week with him. This week, the only striking thing was when he told me that the title would look good on a bus to look for a woman who was on the side. I would not be upset d see that he was watching his wife, just the fact that he was uncomfortable lying about looking at the bus.
He wants me to go live with him, but it is a very important decision and I am very confused about it. In two weeks we were together two unpleasant situations have occurred. Aside from the fact that he’s always with me when working or when it is cold in his country, but when it’s party is the weekend or shines, it’s like I was dispensable. Please I really need other opinions. (Sorry about the size of the text).
Barbara 112
My boy friend is doing the same to me and I feel totally sad about it. I think it is very unpolite I probably will leave him alone because I am not happy anymore but before that I will try to do the same to him and I will coment on other guys in front of him. How did you solve your problem?
Barbra, Prague
sweetgirl 113
wow reading all these comments makes me so sad, I too had a similar situation with the last guy I was seeing but dumped him by sms after couple of dates. Basically things started of great and I honestly thought I was so lucky to have met such a great guy and he was always complimenting me and everything until our last date…when I noticed he was being overly friendly with his friend’s date…weirdest situation I have ever been in and must say Im completely scarred and disgusted by the whole experience he is easy to get over but unfortunately the memory of it all will take a while to be forgotten!
I was so shocked by the experience and told him a totally different reason for dumping him…didn’t explain it was the flirting but knew that I wouldn’t see him again after that night..felt telling him I didnt want to see him anymore was just what he deserved so I left him wondering what the real reason was lol something for him to think about I just think my morals are way too above that sort of behaviour and everyone who is dating these men should run fast!! If he is acting this way while he is courting you can only imagine what it will be like when you are married!!
At the end of the day its all about RESPECT and if you are feeling like he isnt giving it to you get out nice and early
Experienced 114
well since everyone shared their opinions i would also like too.
a relationship is about trust – respect – personal boundaries – being great friends.
a few ladies well past 40 who have had life experience tells me that all men look at other women and so do women look at other men, but when those boundaries get crossed into flirting, it is wrong.
it is normal in a relationship to share your fantasy sex celebrities and have a laugh about it – it is normal to have male and female friends.
But in my own experience i have found men who go out of their way to make a woman jealous, they should be wearing a sign that says: Warning, I am a major ass-hole who will go out of my way to make your life hell.
In another case however you get men who are completely oblivious to the fact that they stare at other women, like my dad for example. From the beginning of time to this day he has been staring at women’s asses, flirting, joking but unfortunately the big red flags he was putting up from the beginning was dismissed because my mother loved him so. in the end he has slept with over a hundred women, has two bastard children, still sleeps around and even drools over young 17 year olds and hovers over them like their a peace of meat (ive seen this with my own eyes and it revolts me) his eyes even look like their about to pop out of his head when he sees a perfectly well rounded buttox.
in this case my father is a perfect example of a narcissist, he has grandiose beliefs of himself and sees people as objects and is completely incapable of having healthy relationships – plus he likes to exert control over females and he displays most of the jealousy. but not all men are like this. just my dad.
then you get men who exert control over their women in a passive aggressive manner. You become the epitome of their lives, they tell you everyday how wonderful, beautiful you are and that you are the love of their lives – then they go out and stare at other women, flirt etc. this insures that you feel a pang of jealousy because you are supposed to be the only one he finds that amazing – but take note, the staring and flirting is done intentionally, because they want to make you jealous. that way they feel powerful, because a jealous woman generally holds on tighter to her man and that generates the false belief of having a gf who finds him irresistible and a false sense of control. mature women will not fall for this – however a less experienced one definitively will. thats why it’s important to evaluate yourself in a relationship, whether you were jealous in other relationships or if this is the first one. usually the only reason why a women loves a man like that so much, is because he gives you the kind of attention we all crave, as if you are the most beautiful woman alive, the only one that makes his life whole – but in actual fact that’s just being very unrealistic. there are millions of attractive people in this world.
the reason why these type of men pull this whole thing is because jealousy makes them feel insecure, out of control (because they are actually the jealous ones) the only way they can feel in control and confident is if they made their gfs jealous.
If you figure this out from the beginning and pull this act on him, you will immediately see his attention convert to you and he will even seem like the jealous one – you will be surprised! however it’s not nice to do that and it’s immature, you will only end up drained and sad.
the whole “you are so special to me” act is a cover for his true intentions, that’s why you end wondering what the hec is wrong with you. in the end “you are the crazy one” however that is the perfect plan of the guy. this whole thing was never even about you, it’s all about him.
a healthy relationship should have a strong foundation of friendship – trust, communication and healthy jealousy.
but if you find yourself getting jealous when your bf glances in another direction without the intention of making you jealous, then you need to evaluate yourself and find ways to get over your own insecurity. before you got into a relationship you use to find many people attractive and in a relationship you still do, however out of respect for one another you at least try and not make the other jealous because you respect each other, but you also have a realistic view of one another, in that sense you help each other where there are short comings, but still compliment and love.
I just find it wrong when a man repeatedly tells a woman how wonderful, beautiful and amazing she is, because that’s the first sign that he is going to make your life hell. of course when you look nice and he tells you that then great! however putting you on a tower and making you seem like a god is wrong. but of course telling you simply he loves you or that you look gorgeous today is not wrong – but be warned when he starts intentionally staring at other women or even dragging you into stores where there are attractive women. that should pretty much be intuitive enough to make you realize this guy is immature and has underlying psychological issues.
Remember – actions always speaks louder than words! you can pretty much see it on a mans face when he loves you, his body language and his day to day actions. but when his words start speaking louder than his actions, you should know that his a manipulator and is going to hurt you real badly.
Experienced 115
I re-phrase the part where i said compliments are wrong – of course compliments are wonderful! I just meant that when he does so excessively but his actions speak otherwise for instance staring at other women and dragging you into stores, then you should know that something is wrong.
people can put up a facade and every now and again release a small part of the evil intentions – so subtle that they can get away with it for years. it’s important to look at a situation realistically and evaluate yourself, and then when your gut tells you the truth, you need to take that as a clear danger sign and get out!
lj 116
I do not see any dates on these posts but it seems like it is over the past few years-
I hope this person has broken it off with this man/or in a better relationship with or without him.
That kind of public behavior is a terrible sign of disrespect; I have a feeling this man is going to be doing this sort of thing for his whole life…
It’s true that women need to understand men better and take dating lighter but sometimes it isn’t ok to tolerate things like this-better to break up and move on-then wonder a year down the line what you ever saw in this man..
lj 117
EXPERIENCED-
I’m not sure how old these comments are but I wanted to praise you perceptions here:Seeing your mother go through hell made you very aware I think. It was probably just as painful for you to experience this through you mother. There are some women that have this style relationship as a pattern..
I have actually had this pattern with some men I have been with and now I see the pattern sooner. This pattern is usually with dependent -style relationships. The “better-men” honor their partners because they have a sense of self-worth and self-respect. The types of men talked about here are not that confident..
Surf'sUp 118
Wowee, what a wonderfully comforting, amazing blog. Thanks to Evan, Karen, and all of you for sharing, I’ve read each and every word of everyone’s comments, start to finish, and it’s great to find that even secure, happy, mature, non-jealous women can slowly be contorted into insecure, miserable, depressed shadows of their former selves, desperately attempting to keep strange women out of their lives every day, because of their SO’s sickening habit - I think we’ve all started staying home, cutting ourselves off from Life itself, just to avoid more Pain! We’re all experiencing NORMAL emotions, caused by INSECURE LOSERS. I don’t feel so alone anymore, and I’m NOT crazy, no matter how loud he yells that I am, when I call him on his nauseating behavior around women. Look up “Gaslighting” it’s where the guy denies everything, even though you (and even your friends) have seen him do it over & over.
All I can really add is that, if you’re dating one of these disgusting droolers, first make sure he’s aware of your feelings about his habit, and then IF it keeps happening after he KNOWS it makes you miserable, then RUN, and don’t look back. He’s most likely been like this all his life, and probably CAN’T change, even if he wanted to. I SO agree with the blogger that mentioned that men who intentionally make their GFs jealous, do this because THEY are the true jealous/insecure ones, so they work hard at making us that way, to keep control of their own emotions, (especially if they used to be hot, and now they’re getting old & gray, and resemble fat hairy little toads.) But they do come in all shapes, ages and sizes, I just think it must be worse for the crusty ones!
Just remember one thing – DON’T play the game, chasing him around stores to see what he’s doing, maneuvering him away from places young, scantily clad women are, making yourself Physically ILL, (Yes, you will eventually get this way, if you aren’t already – no matter how non-jealous/insecure you normally used to be with SECURE men, who enjoyed making their woman secure in his love.) My (20-20 hindsight ) advice is this: Get out NOW, before you have a weak moment, and agree to marry the loser. Too late for me! A divorce would destroy what’s left of me, but I’m seriously considering it.
lost spirit 119
This blog has just given me the strength that I need to do what is right. Thank you to all!
I had split with my bf of 2.5 years about 2 months ago due to his disrespectful oogling and inappropriate eye contact/flirting. He claims he loves me more than anything and would do anything to get me back. But yet he still can’t see how his oogling/eye contact has hurt me. He claims that he just an observant person and that he wants to change and has some learning to do. That was 2 months ago.My now insecure self (because of him) was willing to give him another chance because something about him keeps me holding on. We hung out one time a week ago and during that time I realized that I have lost all respect for him and secretly hate him. It’s too late, the damage has been done. He has known for over a year and half that his actions hurt me. I told him in a respectful manner, an anger manner, had public outbursts, cried and have broken up before. But this last break up was my final straw. I tired of feeling inadequate and insecure. He has a serious problem. He literal thrives on the attention of other women and I think he always will. I have to understand that fully and move on! After reading all this, I am certain that he will never change! I deserve better and so do all of you ladies in this same scenario. These kind of men don’t deserve us! Best of luck to you all.
We can only control are own actions. So stand tall and carry on! A better life is on its way!
ZeneeLovee 120
My boyfriend does the exact same thing , but yet he denies it when I seen him look/stare with my own two eyes. He also says that he looks at everyone because we’re humans , but that doesn’t make no sense at all. Humans are all just girls? Don’t think so. I really don’t think we can’t do anything about it because my boyfriend has been doing this for a very long time after I already told him to stop doing it & he knows that I dislike it. I would also like to do the same thing back to him but I don’t play games either way. It sucks to see your man look at other girls , especially when your right next to him /:
Saint Stephen 121
@ZeneeLovee
There is nothing wrong in starring at other girls if he isn’t particularly acting upon it. Men are “visual” beings; so the earlier you realize that, the less stress you will have in your present relationship.
sophi 122
Honestly I think this whole scenario is either guy that is still a teenager because of previous addiction, or he has been watching porn and has conditioned response to femaies or he is insecure and seeking reinforcement from women for his insecurities…no matter how you look at this type of crap has probaly screwed up a ton of relationships with women but the dummy still doesn’v connect the dots that it is a deeper underlying problem… This will tax your energy and time. If you invest in this relationship it will eat at you because if he does in your face what goes on behind close doors. You will lose more and more respect for him and over time you will resent him. That he does not respect himself more and lacks respects for I believe that there are rules of conduct because you were not socialized and educated by the parent correctly does not mean you are no responsible or accountable for your actions of course if your four or five years old things are different
KATY 123
He was abused as a child by his mother physically and emotionally So I think the pain gets buried deep …in the unconscious Later all women will be punished , degraded or disrespected in some way because it is the only way to try to get the abuse and pain out however the
pain is projected onto all women ..look at me I’m sick! So, down the path you go with a immature sick man and there is no way you can build a sturdy foundation with someone when they are so BROKEN And I no longer wonder why his ex wife has to alway win the child support stuff and nickle and dime him to death she ” kicks him when heS
is up, kicks him when he is down, and kicks him all around.” I think she realized he was disrespecting her so she wants to paid for all the emotional anguish and pain and she will get it at any price …it appears to be a hefty price tag. I wonder if that is the price for creating so much Pain her in the past. So no matter who this type of man ends with all you can do is feel really sorry for the women because she has to deal with a level of immaturity,and a form of emotional abuse.
KATY 124
My first husband was the most wonderful , thoughtful, and respectful spiritual and wise man. I knew in my heart that he was loyal.. real love is safe and because of it i felt a deep inner peace, I trusted him and respected him I was loyal to him. I never ever saw him turn to look at a women in fact he had too much respect for himself and me to ever do such a thing. I would point out a beautiful actress or women to him sometimes. Because he made me feel safe and secure in the context of the relationship , I never felt uneasy he was normal. We later parted Now I’ve dated two men that stared and flirted with women one would even leave the table at dinner to go look
at women. ..and this is what I have decided men who watch porn are addicted and triggered by certain types of women. . Men are so consumed with staring at the women careless about who it hurts, even if it destroys a pile of relationships this type of guy needs psychiatric help. Men that need womens attention to feel okay are insecure and have childhood issues. Seeking attention of strangers is a needy childish way of being and telling long winded stories is another insecure needy way of getting attention. One day I was waiting for my BF to pick up tickets for a basketball game I hated going with him anywhere because he more of a hassle so he goes to get the tickets e he was gone for a long time so that day all these festivities were going on outside the pavillion while he was away a handsome guy asked me to stand on this giant concrete planter with him and smoke a clove cig, I don’t smoke, but I accepted. While we stood on the planter and I can see my BF and we watched him glued to this window looking at the back on this young girl she was with her boyfriend they were maybe sixteen . As we the handsome guy and I stood watching from this birds eye view …i watched my bf glued to window in same position for over fourty , looking at the back of this girl , by that time the handsome guy and I had smoked a few clove cig, the handsome guys turns to me says leave this freak now! Go out with me and I swear I would never ever do such a freakin weriodo thing. Please let me take you out! That is when I realized that my bf was so totally crazy. I left my bf …sometimes you got to see things with your eyes for it to really sink in! Years have passed and he still has not been able to marry anyone he is now in his late fourties most of his early life is now over . He wants so much to marry but volumes of women keep running away just as fast as they can!He is in denial and clueless for the reason why. He is a porn addict. When you get tangled up in this type of relationship it causes more hardship, pain and insecurity then anything else. Leave at the first sign do not waste years of your life hoping and praying. Just know God has better plans for you.
Cv 125
Lostspirit and Sophi–
Wow, you both are absolutely right, I felt like you were inside my head. It’s the most painful thing I’ve ever dealt with, and I just need to get up the courage now to make a decision about what I need to do. Break up and leave him, or continue this cycle of madness, anger, insecurity and hurt. Very very sad indeed. Bless you.
tara 126
Hi Karen,
Thanks for being so open about what you’re experiencing. You have a legitimate reason to feel insecure.
I would recommend being totally honest with your boyfriend. Tell him the things you told us. Its hard at first I know. But in my experience, after I started voicing my opinions and concerns, I only had the boyfriend thanking me in the future for doing so. There was no “oh, youre demanding way too much from me”. It was more like he became aware that there were just somethings I wasnt going to put up with and if he wanted to stay with me things would have to change.
Were still working on that really. I made statements like “you give the prettiest girl in the room all of the attention and that really turns me off. I want to be with a man who makes me feel like the prettiest girl in the room, whether I am or not.” Which is true, and I will leave a man if he cannot abide by this. They are rare and few but some men just know how to treat a girl with utmost respect. And some discustingly dont, it hurts. Some women dont care and deal with it well. Im not that woman and I dont think you are either. Get yourself a romeo and I will too.
I always worry how much more he looks when Im NOT around. People say the men arent cheating so whats the big deal — well, its the principle that counts. I just hate that he seems to be thinking of cheating and will maybe fantasize later while in bed with me. Ugh the truth hurts. Do they not love us enough? Men? Help!
Nicola 127
Evan, I agree with what you’ve said up to a point. Whether he’s unaware or not, I think she was being extremely understanding about it. And her confrontation was as reasonable as could be expected. Most women will not be that level-headed when confronting him.
When you’re walking around with your boyfriend and he’s openly checking out other women (aware or not…personally I don’t see how he CAN’T be aware, but not the point) it sends the wrong message to other women.
I’ve been that other woman before. No matter how much a man loves his girlfriend, if he’s staring at me, I pity her. She looks like a fool.
And some of the predatory women will see it as an invitation.
His rights don’t negate this wrong, which, in my opinion, is a real problem.
He should sort himself out! End of story!
well well 128
I’m supposed to move states to marry a man who said he flirted with other girls because his exgirlfriend didnt give him enough attention in the past and was looking to meet someone possibly. Then I see on his FB a little wink that he had a quick conversation with a girl named (whorish name for real) and wondered what she did for a living. (likely a stripper). He is social and a real charmer but that wont work on me this time. (some other girl says he was flirting but she is really crazy i beleive but i also think he is lying and just didnt admit it cause he relalized she was crazy)
I am mad because it needs trust and respect for a commitment like was said above especially so in my situation, and yes it makes me look stupid. I am open minded if he wants to quickly look at a girl or say someone is attractive even to another person that is ok but i have my limits too. No I’m not worried about that whore or anyone else taking my man but i got standards.
So i am going to ignore him if he calls me tonight he will get this speech and no i dont know if he is ready for commitment or if i will consider breaking up with him if he continues and if he tries to say im insecure that will be dick move number 2, so i will consider dumping his ass and will tell him i dont want to talk to him right now I need to think and let him off the phone and maybe ignore some more if he doesnt consider what i say he will be dumped…will give updates. I listen to my gut, and yes it kills my heart.
Flower White 129
Oh Karen…what happened?
And it appears as though many posters here haven’t truly read this blog cause if you ladies did you’d not be writing paragraphs about men that you should leave.
Give him a mulligan. Once! Twice, say bye bye
Women accept the bad behavior! That isn’t love it’s torture.
His eyeballing other ladies bothers you? Leave him, nothing to talk about, make room for an acceptable man!
Chris 130
Ok, I’ve read all these comments and can relate to most. My boyfriend of 2 years has female friends. I had no problem with that. But, after 30 years, an old best friend came into the picture. She sent him naked pics of her on texts and he spoke to her in a sexual manner because, “she was depressed and I wanted her to feel better.” He said. I was extremely hurt. I feel love is not supposed to hurt. What he did was build her self esteem up and diminish mine. He too tells me everyday that I’m beautiful (although I know that’s not true) How important I am too him, blah blah blah…The friend has professed her love to him and carried a torch for him for over 30 years. He claims to not want to be with her in any other means but as friends. He said he told her that and she was understanding and appologized for getting in between our relationship. I looked @ his texts from her and he didnt answer her for a couple of days and she said to him, if you don’t want me then tell me and I will stop communication. This means he didn’t tell her what he said he did. He has hurt me so deeply that I feel undesirable to him if he has this need to get such attention from other woman. I can no longer get dressed in front of him because I feel he liked what he saw in the pics she sent because he didn’t delete them from his phone until I questioned him about it. He then deleted them in front of me. I do know he loves me but I will never be enough for him. I swear this man is in my thoughts day and night. Every decision I make he is considered. I cook, clean and do laundry. Make sure he’s satisfied in bed by taking care of him. I feel I’m not as important to him as he is to me. We have tried the “talking thing” screaming and crying thing. Still he continues to hurt me every single day. He talks to this “friend” 6-7 times a day and ignores my calls or cuts me short because she’s on the other line. I love this man with all my heart and soul and I don’t want to break things off with him but I’m literally sick of being hurt by him. I know what I have to do I’m just not ready to loose a part of my heart right now. TY for letting me vent.
kat 131
If you haven’t brough it up yet then you really should talk about it.
In my personal experience my boyfriend would look at other girls when we first started dating. Not over look but he would still glare. At one point he actually had the nerve to ask me over the phone, while he was with his friends, if I would mind if he went to a strip club one day. To make things clear I was 22 he was 19 when we first started dating so of course we were both young but we did fall inlove and eventually ended up making plans for our future. His friends were worse than that. I met one of his friends at a party. The whole time his friend was talking about this girl he liked and started dating while a different girl at the party was literally all over him and he did nothing to stop it and flirted back with her. His friend even asked me what I think, as in if he should go for it. This was the typical mindset of this guy.
So back to my boyfriend and his question of whether I would mind if he went to a strip club. I told him he can do whatever he wants. I said, “If that’s something you really want to do then go ahead why should I stop you. But that’s not the kind of guy I want to be with.” If I were to do the same then I would have no right to complain or judge but I’m not a shallow person. There are many things that are far more important to me before I think about how attractive a person is. Don’t get me wrong of course there has to be some attraction but I believe a persons qualities can make their appearance more to my liking. Respect and honor are two very important things to me and I would never settle for less than what I give. You deserve what you give.
So back to me and my boyfriend. We’re still together its been 2 years. We’ve lived together for 1 and half of those years. Once I told him my answer and we talked about where it came from he became a completely different person. He told me that his friend was someone he really looked up to. So he usually did as his friend did. Once he got my perspective he stopped looking and never brought up going to a strip club again. Now he’s far from shallow and a really sweet, respectful guy. I wouldn’t say I changed him I just gave him a different perspective and he took it however he wanted.
However, he as been on the other side. One of our first dates was at the movies. We were watching one of the Twilight movies (not my choice) and Jacob one of the main characters would keep taking his shirt off. Everytime he did my boyfriend would either sigh and look at me or just give a look of uncomfortableness. I could care less if this Jacob took of his shirt. But in my boyfriends past relationships he had been with girls who like to look at other guys too so it bothered him to think I was lookiing at another guy but that was not the case at all. So in a way he was able to empathize and realized it’s not right to treat people that way.
Not everyone is like that and you don’t/shouldn’t have to settle with it.
Linnyc 132
Ladies wake up! I had the same problem with an ex husband and ex bf. Both of these men were deeply insecure and needed attention to validate themselves. They erre both mommys boys. Ex husband used to ogle and make comments about sexy girls. He turned out to be a cheater big time. Well i got back at him by cheating too! He ended up crying and saying how i ‘hurt’ him! Big baby well two can play that game. Then the ex bf after loved to look at other girls in front of me too. Sometimes he would gawk. Well this time I planned on being the mature one and not saying anything for a long time til one day i couldnt take it. I told him how hurt i was. He tried to stop but just couldnt. He turned out to be selfish in other ways and even admitted to meeting up with an ex behind my back which he lied about. I was so good to him and never once lookedd or cheated on him. Turns out he didnt stop bc his mother encouraged him to look as she accepted her ex husbands looking and cheating with a blind eye. The real readon they look is bc they are not ready to settle and are not that satisfied with what they have. At the same time they just wNt u to hang around until they make their minds up to see if something is better or to marry u and hope u can put up with this forever. My ex said he wanted girls to acknowledge him. He was in some ways a good bf but couldnt give this habit up for me. They just want to have their cake and eat it. I think women who marry these men are stupid. I know if this happens again i will definitely start checking out guys and playing fire with fire. These babies need to be hurt back as welll only ways guys learn is not thru talk but action. They are so selfish. Eventually my ex broke up with me over this and said that he would keep dumping girls until he would find one that didnt mind his staring. What a selfish jerk.
Jill 133
Run ladies run, these men are in love with the thought of being adored by other women and more than their dedication to loving you! It hurts, its hard to come to the reality that the guy you are with is like this. If you are feeling insecure, hate going places with him or see attractive women and dread their presence because of how he will act around her trust in your instinct of why you are reading this blog and these posts – something is telling you to leave – it’s your instinct and it’s probably right. It’s not what we want to hear or admit but the truth is in the action of the men in question. Insecure men seek constant affirmation. Healthy men only require YOUR affirmation. Google: histrionic personality disorder, narcissism, gas-lighting and you will likely find many traits that resemble the men you are talking about/reading about/dating/married to. Flirting is an acceptable behavior by the singles crowd but we all know it’s a no-no when in a committed relationship. Respect comes through in actions. If your guy does not act appropriate and respectful to you now it’s doubtful he will change. He could have a personality disorder. He puts himself first and does not have strong values. Some men claim they aren’t aware of their starring, but that’s like saying you aren’t aware of where your hands are at all times. Some men can’t be alone as it makes them feel unwanted so being in relationship gives them security and when they flirt and get rejected it’s ok because they have you. Some men even are waiting for something better to come along and flirting assures them that they are actively pursing the next best thing and not missing out. Many guys are shy and ‘putting it out there’ is enabling their fantasy girl to find them. Men who are in love with their wives say that they don’t play these games because it is not healthy for their relationship and would hurt the one the love. Any guy who does not understand this is not likely to be a quality mate. When you are in public and he acts like a kid in a candy store wanting to get a piece of anything that looks good, run. It’s not healthy behavior and the sickness will spread to you in ways that make you question yourself. This behavior can be an indicator of someone who is likely to be dishonest about other things. Men who have mommy issues often subconsciously act to seek female approval. These men are in love with the thought of women loving them more than he is about loving you! (lost spirit, I admire your attitude and thank you for your post!)
Ek 134
My friends told me its normal, so even though his preoccupation with other women bothered me, I went ahead and married him. Guess what? It gets worse. Thirteen years later my face has fallen a little and he is always gawking at younger women, making some special peacock the center of his attention almost every time we go out. We have a child so I dont want to break his heart by divorcing him but he is breaking mine almost every day. The memories linger and turn you cold. Run now and dont look back.
JD 135
I had a very flirtatious ex-fiance. He invited to one of his friend’s wedding. I paid $400 to fly there, bought a new dress, shoes, bag, and wrap. Had to arrange for my kids to be babysat for the weekend. Very expensive. Well, he decided that it was really funny to do a “cock block” routine with his other friend who was about 10 years younger than he and single because he looked like the youngest 25-year old bridesmaid was sweet on his buddy. He left me to flirt with the bridesmaid all night long. His friend’s wife told me that I shouldn’t be upset about it because it had nothing to do with me. It was the way they had always had fun. At the end of the night when the girl transferred her attention to my fiance, he would say, sorry I’m not interested and then it was too late for her to take up with the other guy– so the cock block was accomplished. My ex only had time to eat with me. I ended up dancing with people I didn’t know just to avoid looking stupid and alone.
I did the thing that Evan suggested. After several of these episodes and after this one, I said, It really hurt me when you left me to flirt with another woman right in front of me. You left me alone at a wedding where I didn’t really know anyone. It wasn’t fun for me. He told me that it was his way of having fun and I just had to deal with it. He was 47 years old, not 20 by the way.
He would constantly flirt with women and even with men. If a gay guy came onto him, he was his for the night too. At a conference, he hung out with a gay guy who came on to him and grabbed his ass. He went to a fancy restaurant with him and even rented a limbo. He told me about it after he called me the next morning. He was having too much fun to call me on his business trip at night. When we’d gone to the same city, he wouldn’t get a taxi for me (I had a herniated disk in my back) and made me walk every where and told me that he would only do diners (no fancy restaurants even though I offered to pay!). Again, I didn’t know what to think.
Three months before we were to be married, he decided to spent the one week of vacation that I had (I am an educator and got spring break off) to spend it with his friends golfing in another state. I was selling my house and needed him to help me get it ready to sell and I was hoping that he’d spent the other half on a vacation with me and my children who were going to be his step children. He went golfing and then called me one morning to tell me that he’d gotten into an altercation with a woman at a bar. He said she was flirting with him and she wanted him to buy her a drink. He said no and she started grinding her private parts on him. He pushed her, she pushed back. She slapped him, he slapped her. She kept grinding on him and he pulled her hair and then a bouncer came and told him to leave but took his picture first. I was shocked. He is 47 years old. I know what likely happened is that he was flirting with her first and then she asked him for a drink. He probably bought one. Then she started flirting back. He flirted some and then she wanted more drinks. He’s rather cheap so I’m guessing he cut her off and she got pissed. Then he got pissed. This was the second one of these that he told me about…it was ridiculous.
I told him that I didn’t want to know about his flirtations with women. If he wanted to flirt, he could do it on his business trips but not with me in the room. He wanted to tell me because he got a high from the whole dynamic….he felt wanted, got a surge from his sexual prowess, and then got another when he either did it in front of me or told me about it because he knew I felt horrible about it….he would say, look you won…but I didn’t feel like a winner. Sitting alone at that wedding watching couples slow dance and seeing my fiance flirting with another woman, touching her hair, laughing, touching her arm…it was like some stabbed me with a knife.
In the end, he ended our engagement (3 months before the wedding and after invitations were out) because I couldn’t be best friends with one of his ex-girlfriends. It was all very hurtful. They flirted together too and the worst part was that his family encouraged it and invited her to every family event. No other ex’s were invited. He also would invite women he’d been “friends with benefits” with to parties at his house. I knew how they knew him. They gave him a BJ some random night whenever he felt lonely….and that was their “relationship.” He wanted to keep a little fan club around and he wanted me to be president, I guess.
I can’t agree with Evan on this one. Guys like my ex-fiance know that it hurts to see this kind of flirting and then they do it any way. I never made any big scene about it. I tried to tell him calmly how much I loved him and appreciated him, but that his flirting really hurt me. I wasn’t hurt by him flirting with the waitress or looking at a cute girl as we walked by, I was hurt by him totally abandoning me at a party or wedding to flirt with another woman right in front of me or when on a business trip, telling me that he couldn’t call me because he was having too much fun spending the night with a woman who was grinding her private parts on him.
I will never let another guy do that to me again. In so many ways, his actions said he didn’t love me even though he told me that he did.
Clare 136
Hey JD @ 135
I’m so sorry for your awful experience. Your fiance clearly crossed right over the line of harmless behaviour into not-to-be-tolerated territory. The difference is in how it made you feel. Barring some major insecurity issues, there is no reason any woman in a committed relationship should have to be fending off such awful feelings on a regular basis.
You are best off out of that relationship, and have probably learnt something very valuable to boot. I think there is a vast deal of difference between what Evan is talking about, being charming and friendly to other women because that is your nature, and being completely oblivious to the needs and feelings of your partner because you are looking for an ego/power boost.
Ben 137
I know how that one feels. Girls do it also. I think if it is something that bugs you and if it keeps happening you should tell him that it’s bothering you a lot. My x gf used to flirt with other guys all the time and it drove me mad. I told her it bugged me a bunch and she didn’t listen…so I dumped her and now I’m happy…if its bugging you that much maybe you should just move on.
Shaz 138
I know this is an old post but I found it very helpful. I used Evan’s advice and it worked. In my case the man I’m seeing has a habit of commenting on women’s attractiveness, usually in a benign way that doesn’t bother me. We almost never watch TV when we’re together but on a couple of occasions while channel flipping he would make very sexual and not all at benign comments about every attractive or semi-attractive woman that came on the screen. I tried to laugh it off and would tell him in a friendly tone “hey, save that for when you’re alone willya?” but that wouldn’t stop him.
The last time he did it was particularly bad and his comments about how some scantily clad women on some show were “the sexiest women” “so hot, gorgeous” etc.. were so hurtful. It didn’t matter to me that they were just images on a screen and that there was no possibility of him leaving me for them, it still hurt, made me feel like chopped liver sitting there and completely killed any desire to be physical with him.
I read this article and others and realized that if I ignored my feelings and did not talk about it with him that I would just grow resentful and that he would probably continue to behave the same way. I vented the worst of my feelings on paper (then shredded it) and approached him a couple days later with a few bullet points. I acknowledged that this would seem ridiculous to him, but that when he reacted in that way to women with me sitting right there next to him that it hurt my feelings and also was a major sexual turn-off.
Before I could even get my brief spiel out he was apologizing and clearly felt awful for having hurt me. He was practically promising to never watch TV again but I tried to make it clear that we all find others attractive, that’s natural and not a problem but that expressing so much sexual interest in other women in my presence was. I encouraged him to enjoy looking at those women when I’m not around, pick up a Playboy or something once in a while (he’s religious and extremely opposed to porn, so I doubt he would do even that) so he would know that I’m not trying to control his sexuality or restrict him unreasonably.
He is an engineer so I’ve learned that hints don’t work with him. I have to spell it out. He had known that something was “off” with me that night I’d left after the last incident but did not connect it to his comments at all, while I’d been assuming that it must be obvious to anyone that I was hurt and upset.
It’s been a couple months now and there’s been no more “commenting” and he’s been great about keeping his eyes and attention on me when we go out to dinner and other places too. Evan’s advice can work, especially if the guy in question is motivated to keep you.
Cathy 139
The dinner starts out with both of us polite and friendly to the waitress. As the meal progresses, my husband begins smiling at waitresses even as they walk away from the table. This makes some feel uncomfortable.
One waitress who knows him as Attorney X, looks uncomfortable as she reminds him at payment, ‘Atty. X, did I tell you I she just got married over the summer?” Yes I acknowledge to myself, that has been her 4th reminder over the past 6 months.
So to all you men out there who think this behavior is innocent, think again. Not only do you embarass your current partner, you may make the other woman uncomfortable and embarassed for your wife/partner.
Hi Liloni 140
Stare at guy’s dicks, it works!