My Husband Had a Stripper at His Bachelor Party and I’m Still Angry!

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Evan,
I’ve been married for just over 3 months. Prior to marrying my husband, he had a bachelor party. His bachelor party consisted of the men partying and watching football, and then eventually retiring to his friend’s house for 2 full nude strippers in a show. My husband came home completely messed up at 4am.

The issue is that he did not make me aware of the strippers. Later, I saw him bending over and on his ass was a bunch of permanent marker. BUSTED! He kind of came clean, but the timeline of his story and his lack of details make me think it’s worse than I know. He refuses to discuss it with me. Not to mention that when he came home at 4am, he had sex with me. I feel a little used.

Now, 4 months later, I’m still hurt by it and it eats at me that I have no idea what happened with 2 fully nude strippers in his friend’s house or why he would end up home at 4am instead of either a more reasonable time or the next morning. Seems fishy… not to mention he doesn’t even recall having sex with me when he got home.

I’m doing my best to let that go but now we have another friend’s wedding where he is a groomsman. Which means another bachelor party! So, my anxiety is at an all-time high. I’m almost leaning toward telling him if they get private strippers, I will be getting a private massage from at least 1 male therapist, and if they go to a strip club, not a big deal, I’ll stick to a reputable storefront for my massage! Is that unreasonable? Do I seem like an uptight wife? I’m just utterly grossed out by thinking about a nude girl or two rubbing on my man’s crotch! And I’d think he may get a little crazy thinking about a muscular stud rubbing me down with massage oils, so it seems fair, no? –Katherine

Dear Katherine,

I’ve talked about men and their visual proclivities before: namely, here, here, and here.

You’re holding onto this one night like a 7-year-old holding onto his blankie. Let it go, Linus.

I’m not positive I have anything new to say on the topic, so I’ll just do my best to dissect your email to me:

1. You’re married.

This means that you’ve had 2-3 years to date him. You know who he is. You either trust him or you don’t. I would be surprised if he proved to be a completely different human being after you got married.

2. He had a bachelor party with strippers, got hammered, and blacked out.

Certainly not his proudest moment. But is this a pattern with him? Or is it an anomaly – say, something that has never occurred before but only happened at his bachelor party?

If it’s a pattern, I don’t know why you married him. If it’s an anomaly, it’s probably something to write off.

3. He did not make you aware of these strippers.

And if he did, this all would have gone a lot better?

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118 Comments »Filed Under Marriage

118 Responses to “My Husband Had a Stripper at His Bachelor Party and I’m Still Angry!”

Rose 1

Only you know if it’s a dealbreaker or not.
Do you want to be in a marriage to a man who goes to strip clubs or not? Did you not discuss this before you married him?
I Understand why you feel used.If you don’t then he gets to choose to do what he likes stay married to you or go to strip clubs when he wants.
If it’s not that big a deal it’s not that big a deal. If it is then it’s a deal breaker.
Only you know what you want and is acceptable in your life. Didn’t you discuss this before you got married.?Only you know what he his like when the drink flows if he drinks.
My neighbour found out her fiance had simulated sex on his stag night Stripper strapped on a dildo on him and rode the dildo. His brother and all the other married men didn’t go to the strip club only him and his single buddies. She didn’t marry him,. She actually was so distraught she committed suicide a few weeks later.
Think most men single men who are not in committed relationships go and try strip clubs out. Not all but most at sometime. Don’t know any personally who go once they are in an exclusive committed relationship or married.
Only you know what is right for you and what you want. You get to choose just like he does.
Calm, open and honest discussion is the only way. Not telling him what to do or pretending it is ok with you if it isn’t.
Gia 2

This women is not thin skinned. She justifiably put off by her husbands inappropriate behavior. Watching fully naked women engage in a sexual display for entertainment is a show of disrespect to your marital commitment. It’s also exploitation of another human being. I’m so sick of this boys will be boys justification for objectifying and exploiting women and betraying your wife. This isn’t an issue of jealousy. It’s an issue of respect. Why is watching two 18 year old girls (who are probably runaways from abusive homes) use a two way dildo so important? It’s wrong in every way. Why is it worth causing your wife so much distress? Why is the bachelor party so sacred? Why is taking advantage of a desperate persons vulnerability justifiable if it serves the male “visual proclivity”? It’s wrong. Men are not entitled to this because they’re men and “that’s how men are” so it must be accepted and allowed. Treating your wife this way is wrong. Taking advantage of some young girl just because she’s willing to put herself through this is wrong. There’s no justifying it. A decent man would not enable the choice of a misguided young women to put herself in a position that will cause further damage to her self esteem. A decent man would recognize that just because someone is willing to harm them self doesn’t mean that it’s okay to exploit that as an opportunity to take advantage of them. Evan you should be the one to “grow up” and “let go”. This is a contentious issue for most couples on the eve of their wedding. Accepting this bull shit is forced on women under the assertion that men are entitled to this. We don’t have to accept this. If it’s important enough to you to cause your wife severe upset, then you shouldn’t be getting married.
Holly 3

Obviously nobody knows the other aspects of your relationship but you…how is your relationship besides this incident? Is he a good husband? Do you enjoy being together, have good communication, same life goals, a good sex life, etc etc? If yes, then I personally would say let this go.

Maybe you need to state your peace with him, as Evan suggested. Tell him that it made you uncomfortable for X reason, but that you trust him (which is why you married him I assume). He must (I hope) have a lot of great qualities that led you to wanting to marry him in the first place. I would not let the issue of him having strippers at his bachelor party drive you crazy and/or ruin an otherwise perfectly healthy marriage.

Remember, being jealous really hurts you way more than it hurts anyone else. Nobody can make us feel anything…we are responsible for our own feelings. Are you making yourself feel the way you want to? If not, only you can change that. Best of luck!
Rose 4

Holly, I think the issue is will he now do it again and organise strippers for his mates Stag do? And be involved. If he thinks his wife is ok about it he will or the fiance of the groom.
And what about his fiance? What is her views on this?
Everyone needs to be on the same page really, if they think it is an important issue to them. And then each person gets to decides what they want and what is more important.?Different people have different ethics, morals and values. And if your inner core morals and values don’t match, you are not a match.
Mary 5

Your jealousy says a lot about you, perhaps counseling would help you to feel more secure about yourself and your marriage. I agree with Evan on the Black Out of your husband, this is not normal and is a sign of an alcoholic.
Angie 6

“I’m almost leaning toward telling him if they get private strippers, I will be getting a private massage from at least 1 male therapist, and if they go to a strip club, not a big deal, I’ll stick to a reputable storefront for my massage! Is that unreasonable?”

Katherine, I agree with Evan for the most part. If this was a one-off, then forgive your husband. In all likelihood, his friends planned the party and he just showed up. He may or may not have known about the strippers, but strippers at bachelor parties aren’t exactly unusual.

You would have had more success had you talked to him a month or so prior to the bachelor party about what activities may or may not happen, and said then that you did not like the idea of him having strippers and then he could have put in a request with his friends. But, the past is the past.

Your idea about getting a male masseuse is just spiteful and immature, and I wonder if this is a natural communication style for you. (In which case: Watch out, marriage). Look, I’m not saying you have to love your husband seeing a stripper, but you DO need to be able to effectively communicate with your husband and he needs to effectively respect what you say. The fact that he is avoiding talking this early on means he either thinks it’s not worth the bother, because he will get yelled at, or he just doesn’t care. (probably the former).

Either way, the idea that you will get a masseuse and hold that over his head as a type of punishment seems unhealthy. The first thing you need to do is forgive. The second thing you need to do is have a healthy conversation about WHY you are opposed to strippers and communicate it in a way where your husband can engage, not run away. Third, you have to let him hang out with his friends. Whether or not you like the fact that there were strippers or what your opinion is on men who go to strip clubs, etc, your husband did not cheat on you and it seems that this is where the problem is.

Perhaps, spend a little time thinking about WHY your anxiety is so high. Ex: Were you cheated on by a past boyfriend, and are now holding your husband accountable to be Mr. Perfect?
AS 7

Even as a woman, I completely agree with Evan on this one. It really is as simple as letting it go, or sit there winding yourself up, winding him up and ultimately causing problems in your relationship. I am assuming that you trusted your husband before you were married, otherwise you wouldn’t have married him… A relationship with no trust only has one outcome, and it’s not a nice one.
marymary 8

I may be even more out of my depth here than I was with the bondage/domination thing but I think strippers don’t have sex with their clients because they don’t have to? Same with masseurs.
Of course, that brings us to what exactly constitutes sex. And that some strippers and masseurs do.
I agree that you either trust him or you don’t, I also think he should stay away if he knows how much it bothers you. I don’t think I would want to cause this much upset to someone I loved over something not very important to me.
Kathy 9

I don’t know why she should have the explain to him that she is “thinskinned”? After all these are her feelings, and even though men and women may think “differently” about these things, her feelings are more important than his “fun” if it hits at her inner core.. After all this is a marriage of TWO people and he is not going to end up so well in it if he is not sensitive to her..
I wonder if he would have liked her coming up with markers on her butt from male strippers at her batchelor party drunk at 4 am??! Ha!
Evan Marc Katz 10

@Kathy, who doesn’t see why the OP should admit to being “thinskinned”. Okay, let’s play a game: Which Version Is A Man Going To Listen To:

1. “Husband, if you EVER go to another bachelor party with strippers again, you are a selfish asshole who has no regard for my feelings and I will serve your divorce papers the next day.”

OR

2. “Sweetie, I know it’s probably a little silly for me to be this hypersensitive about a bachelor party that happened four months ago. After all, I love you, I trust you, and you’ve never given me any reason in the past to feel jealous. It’s just that I find that I’m still a little bothered by the details of your bachelor party and I just wanted to let you know that it doesn’t feel good. I hate that I feel this way, but I do. And now that you’ve got another party coming up, I’m finding myself getting nervous and resentful. What can we do about this?”

As the man here, I declare #2 the winner, and must note that I’m still the defending champion of telling women how to communicate more effectively with men. It will be hard to take that title away from me, Kathy.
Ruby 11

Was there something in the original letter about a stripper using a strap-on dildo on a guy at the party? Now I’m not seeing it…Gia refers to it in #2.
Kathy 12

Gia @ #2… Well Said!!!
Evan Marc Katz 13

No, Ruby, there was not. And while I don’t remotely agree with Gia, it’s not a huge leap of faith to suggest that something like that may have happened at a private stripper party. The two way dildo was probably for the strippers themselves, however, not for the bachelor himself.
Kathy 14

Evan, I am not trying to take away your “winner” category of having women try to effectively communicate with men you are quite good at that in most instances..
I just think there is a way to communicate that is between your no.1 response and your no.2. No. 2 is walking on eggshells to the extreme. Why is it that we have to be soooo sensitive when communicating our feelings to a man, but he doesn’t have to be sensitive to our feelings at all. I bet this man probably knew that his wife would have not strippers at his batchelor party, that’s why there probably wasn’t any mention of it.
If a man can’t hear, “a Honey, I don’t like that, it makes me feel (unloved, unworthy, or whatever it is we feel)… then he doesn’t care about his wife’s feelings. Men should not have to be coddled like babies in all of our conversations with them. That just keeps them in the “baby” status!
Evan Marc Katz 15

Because, Kathy, as your mother taught you, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. And being sensitive to your husband is the best way to ensure he’s sensitive to you.
Julia 16

So how can the rest of us learn from this, certainly no one wants to be 4 months after this still feeling the way she does. I am no fan of strippers, I think its kind of sad and obviously exploitative. However, I would FAR prefer my boyfriend/fiance/husband go to an actual strip club then to get private strippers. I’ve heard tales from these kind of parties and I have to say, just because intercourse might not happen doesn’t mean things I would want a partner participating in or even pressured in don’t happen. How do we have the conversation BEFORE so that if they are going to partake in some naked ladies those ladies aren’t performing sexual acts or at least, their pals aren’t pressuring them into it?
Evan Marc Katz 17

@Julia, “How do we have the conversation BEFORE so that if they are going to partake in some naked ladies those ladies aren’t performing sexual acts or at least, their pals aren’t pressuring them into it?”

You don’t. You trust.

I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument for how NOT trusting your fiance make him feel closer to you.

In other words, you don’t have to TELL your man to NOT cheat on you. You trust that he WON’T and you don’t interrogate him before or after. That’s what trust MEANS.

If you can’t do this, either YOU’RE insecure or you don’t actually trust your fiance. Both are serious problems.
Leslie 18

Also to the OP, it may be worth keeping in mind that your husband’s love for you is so strong that he managed to keep it in his pants while he was blacked out, in the presence of multiple naked ladies, and being egged on by a bunch of drunk guys. I think your feelings are valid that you’d prefer he didn’t put himself in such a tempting situation. But, given the circumstances, it sounds like your guy handled himself quite well.
Steve 19

It sounds to me like there was either little communication of your comfort boundaries before you got married, or maybe there was and you still accepted him.
Trust me when I say that unless they were escorts, strippers don’t sleep with the guys they are performing for.
I agree that the best communication at this point, is what EMK stated.
Either way, he participated in an activity that has made you feel very insecure. I would say talk in a way that does not express anger or control, but expresses love, and describes your feelings on the matter.
Also realize that men are less likely to hide and accept their friends infidelity than womens friends are. I can only tell you from my experience from being a male, who has been to bachelor parties – ITs raunchy, its mainly humorous, and includes copious amounts of alcohol. The worst I have witnessed is a lap dance that might be a little more raunchy than what you see in a strip club.
If this is a true boundary for you, which it seems to be, You would need to tell him that it makes you uncomfortable. But in a way that isn’t spiteful, and jealous.
I am just saying that 99.9% of the time you have nothing to worry about with strippers.
BUT if your main upset comes from the fact that he likes to look at the female form, clothed, unclothed and all states in between – Good luck with that, the only solution will be to turn him into a gay man, and I doubt you want to be married to a gay man…
This is a sensitive subject for me, I totally understand why you feel the way you do. But as ben franklin said “Eyes Wide open before marriage, and half shut after” – It doesn’t mean ignore infidelity, it means not to suspect infidelity at every turn because presumably you “vetted” your spouse before hand. (Which I did not)…
I hope you are able to overcome this, and I hope you are able to know that he is highly likely not cheating.
Some real signs? secret messaging, leaving the room to talk on the phone all the time when he previously hadn’t. The behavior changes more than attending a party.He will either overcompensate with sudden care, or treat you extremely distantly…

Good Luck
Rose 20

10

I seriously in a month of Sundays, would not feel comfortable having either of those conversations. The first sounds really attacking and the seconds sounds like my feelings are wrong silly which is not real or true. I would clearly state that I don’t want to be in a marriage to someone who wants to go to strip clubs or watch live strippers doing sexual simulated acts. But totally respect if this is something he wants to continue to be able to do whilst in a marriage. And he is free to live his life and makes what ever choices he wants. And then ask him what he thinks. As I would seriously not be able to be in a marriage like that. And Luckily have not been and neither do I know any married women personally who are.
None of the married men I know personally want to do this.

What does thin skinned mean? I have not ever heard that expression.

And people who are very sensitive are not silly. Feelings are feelings, just as some people feel more pain than others etc. Or are more sensitive to smells or tastes, it is part of who they are. I wouldn’t dismiss anyone’s reality bu calling them names like SILLY. They are what they are so obviously the right man for them would be someone who was sensitive to who they were. No other match in reality would be workable. It is not silly to be hypersensitive to any stimuli or peoples suffering etc. It is that persons reality and who they are as a person. Many gifted people and some people with ASD fall in this category they are not silly or wrong they are who they are. They don’t need Fixing ot told they are wrong and silly for feeling what they feel.
Still-Looking 21

Let’s assume I have a wife. In which of the scenarios below would I be justified to be jealous (reasonable man standard please):
1. My wife seems to be smiling and making eye contact with the handsome young waiter?
2. My wife goes out to lunch with a male co-worker without telling me first.
3. My wife has a couple of drinks at a neighborhood party and starts dancing with some of the neighborhood men.
4. My wife has always been extremely flirtatious with all men she comes in contact with. It never bothered me before we got married, but now?
5. My wife goes out for girls’ night out every Wednesday with her friends. It might be drinks/dinner, Magic Mike, or the Chippendales.
6. My wife has maintained a very close friendship with a former boyfriend and they talk several times a week.
7. My wife goes to a wild bachelorette party – male strippers, lots of booze, sex toy presents for the bride, etc.
8. My wife has an affair.
Maybe I’m an outlier but the only scenario that would bother me in the least is #8. If I don’t trust my wife, it’s not much of a relationship.
Jackie H. 22

You either trust him or you don’t…So he got turned on after seeing strippers…you would have an entirely different problem on your hands if he wasn’t turned on…
Sasha 23

There are other fish in the sea. Perhaps you made a mistake with this one. Perhaps you did not. If it bothers you, own it and be willing to walk if you can’t get over it. Life is too short. Grow a spine and pick a side – get over it, or leave. You CAN find someone else more in line w/ your morals and values. Just make sure you have these discussions BEFORE getting married. Good luck to you.
Kathy 24

Rose @ #20
Thin skinned means “overly sensitive”. I guess to you feelings… Dunno
John 25

The women on this thread who are so uptight about the strippers are being silly. When a bunch of drunk guys get together for a bachelor party, its fun to watch 2 women getting off on double ended dildos. Why? Because it is a sexual freak show. You only witness that a few times in your life. Yes, guys like that stuff once a decade. Get over it.
And there is always one guy in the group who doesn’t attend the bachelor party and he is made fun of because we all know it was his wife/girlfriend that refused to let him go. And he let her dicate. Trust me, any guy that pulls a no show for his friend’s bachelor party is thought less of by his peers. So ladies if you are worried about him cheating, then screw his brains out before he goes out so there is nothing left in the tank. Otherwise, just keep your paranoia to yourselves.
Reema 26

@ Gia (#2) and Rose (#10): spot on, I agree with you guys 100%! You can still be an understing wife, without accepting the whole ‘boys will be boys’ crap.
And guess what, if we sit and trust, and wait without saying beforehand that something that he’s about to do will hurt us… He’ll do as he pleases and after will say ‘ops sorry sweety, I didn’t know this would bother you’. Iif you don’t ask / talk beforehand about something fishy, they’re not going out of their way to think about they’ll do , or talk to you about it. So I think I’d skip on the ‘sit around and trust’ if my boyfriend was about to go to a strip club, I’d actually be very honest about how that hurts me and how I don’t accept it. In the same way I won’t do anything that hurts him.
Rose 27

John, I have no interest in any man who is more concerned about what his peers think than his relationship with his wife. Or who wants to get drunk with his mates and watch women in real life doing freaky sexual acts. Not someone I would personally want to enter a committed relationship with. So I feel no need to get over anything. Or any men who calls women silly and uptight. Not really on my level, or what I want.
Other women might be interested in ‘men’ like that and they would be a better match for each other. if they are truly happy about that Not the type of man I would consider good husband material personally as I am only in interested happy loving relationships.
So I don’t feel the need to get over anything TY.
Cat 28

@EMK 17…“I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument for how NOT trusting your fiance makes him feel closer to you.”
I have yet to hear a compelling argument for how a man going to wild bachelor parties & then not discussing it makes his wife feel closer to him???
It’s supposed to go both ways. Men cannot expect trust/acceptance thru behavior that makes their spouse insecure. (Obviously that varies between women). Men want/need trust/acceptance. I get that. Women want/need security & to feel loved. When her fiancee went to the bachelor party that is not what his actions told her. It made her feel insecure – But now she is somehow supposed to make him feel closer to her by trusting him? Am I missing something??
Joe 29

IMO Katherine’s problem is that she doesn’t trust her man enough to know that nothing happened between him and the strippers. That means she didn’t get to know him well enough before getting hitched. Buyer’s remorse, if you will.
Michelle 30

#25 John
I agree with John. It’s unfortunate so many women don’t understand men, want men to be just like women and are thin skinned. You’re all in for a long life of frustration and irritation and a real chance of having another women interefere (one who treats him with respect and like a grown man capable of being trusted and making his own decisions) if you don’t lean back, lighten up, TRUST, and get yourself educated on how men think and operate.
Karmic Equation 31

@Rose 27

“John, I have no interest in any man who is more concerned about what his peers think than his relationship with his wife.”

And few men, good or bad, would be interested in a woman who doesn’t care about what he wants too. A woman who thinks that what’s important to her trumps what’s important to him isn’t what most men are looking for.

A discussion COULD have taken place before the party, but I think we’ve pretty much established that most men aren’t great communicators, and while you’re bludgeoning him with words or emotions about what’s important to you, he may not be able to communicate about his feelings about “peer pressure” and the like.

As a woman, “being sensitive” is not only feeling YOUR OWN emotions but actually being able to feel HIS as well, and being “natural verbal” communicators, it behooves a woman to try to put HIS feelings into words in order to help him understand himself, which in turn gets him closer to understanding you. And that understanding creates the connection that makes a man love you, if love is your objective.

What I’m sensing is that relationships are a one-way street with you. Your way of communicating or don’t communicate. Your ideas of what’s important trumps HIS ideas about what’s important. What you’re interested in in a man, not what HE’s interested in in a woman.

If you’re having trouble finding a satisfactory relationship because men you do find interesting disappear on you or if you’re having trouble finding a satisfactory man, that would come as no surprise. Few men are satisfactory to you and you are probably unsatisfactory to most men. You can delude yourself that it’s your high standards that are preventing you from finding a man, but I would hazard a guess that your high standards are a pre-emptive strike against likely rejection.

@Reema 26

“In the same way I won’t do anything that hurts him.”

Distrust hurts a man, especially one who is trustworthy. If you married a man you don’t trust completely, controlling him after the fact isn’t going to make him more trustworthy. So either you trust him or you don’t. If you don’t you shouldn’t have married him in the first place. If you do trust him, he’s not all of a sudden going to become an untrustworthy man because some woman is flashing her hoohaa at him. And since he isn’t the bachelor, odds are the hoohaas are being flashed at the guest of honor, not him.

@John 25

I find it interesting that women want “honest” men and when presented with an honest man’s honest response, she gets offended and tells you you are not worthy of her interest. My best friend, who happens to be a man and adores women, not a player, a truly good man acknowledges, “Yup, that’s the hypocrisy of women for you. I love ‘em, but yeah, they’re like that. You just deal with it if you want a woman in your life.”
Androgynous 32

I guess strippers and batchelor parties come with the territory when you decide on a full blown wedding with all the trimmings. You should have just signed the marriage certificate at the registry and then gotten down to a simple/casual luncheon or dinner with family and close friends.
To be honest, batchelor parties are just as commercial and contrived as big fat weddings are. To be honest, unless your husband is a teenager embarking on adult life for the first time, this celebration of the ending of adolescence and irresponsibility with final adolsecent behaviour and irresponsibility – is really quite unnecessary.
Yeah – this tit for tat attitude is really going to strengthen your marriage !
If you are going to react to childish behaviour with childish behaviour then like a marriage between two children, this is not going to end well.
Act and behave like an adult and maybe your husband will take the cue from you. If not, congratulations you have married a child.
John 33

One last point to the ladies. I have been to my fair share of bachelor parties especially in my 30s when my friends got married. And none of the attendees, including the groom, hooked up with a stripper. Many of them are skanky and the ones that aren’t skanky usually have a bodyguard. So its just a freak show and some male bonding and nothing more. The image that women have of what goes on at bachelor parties isn’t even remotely close. Trust me when I say that guys will grab more beers than boobs at those things.
LC 34

The problem with getting completely drunk and blacking in the vicinity of naked women/men is that you’re no longer in control over what you do or what happens to you. This goes both ways for men and women. I don’t know why anyone would want to get so drunk that they don’t remember what they do, and they risk losing the love of their life if they “consent” to a sexual act while heavily inebriated that they’d never do when they are sober. It wreaks of irresponsibility and weakness. No one’s wife or husband should have to tell them not to go to a bachelor/bachelorette party. One’s own conscious, ability to do the right thing, and good judgement should keep them out of such situations.
starthrower68 35

Right on John! Get out there guys have more sex!
JustMe 36

StillLooking #21..

ALL of those things would have bothered my ex. Just because they wouldn’t bother you doesn’t mean they wouldn’t bother someone else.

@ John #25

Peer Pressure, alive and well. Don’t you think it is a possibility that there are some guys who don’t enjoy those events who only go because they know they will be ridiculed behind their backs?

I also know if my ex didn’t want to attend some event (not a strip show – that he would have happily attended) with his buddies, he ususally made me the scape goat even though I would not have minded him going. Actually, not once in our 18 year marriage did I tell him he couldn’t do something. It was easier for him to say “my wife won’t let me” than to say “I don’t want to”.

Evan – sorry – I love you but I don’t like the two ways of adressing it either. I think there is a better way somewhere in the middle.

Everyone has a different level of comfort (see Still Looking @21). Is someone really wrong for having a different standard than you? That is what I am hearing – “Well, I would be ok with it so she should be as well”.
Evan Marc Katz 37

@Cat – Yes, you’re missing something.

“Men cannot expect trust/acceptance thru behavior that makes their spouse insecure.” and “It made her feel insecure”.

We’ve just zeroed in on the crux of this issue. Some women think that a man going to a bachelor party, occasionally viewing porn, talking to another woman at a party “makes you feel insecure”. I would suggest that such a woman already IS insecure, and such actions only bother to inflame her insecurities.

Put another way, women who are NOT insecure will not react to the above situations and project their insecurities on their husbands. So the actions themselves don’t cause any problems.

Most of the women here are blaming men for “making you feel” insecure. I would intimate that if you were truly secure, none of this would matter. It doesn’t with my wife. It doesn’t with my friends’ wives. And until you can find the confidence to realize that none of this means anything, you will continue to get frustrated at “where all the good men are”.
Rose 38

Karmic equation, any man is entitled to choose to live their life any way they choose as am I and do. I am giving him exactly what he wants freedom of choice to do and live how ever he wishes. He chooses how he lives his life and what is more important and I do the same. My self respect feels more important to me than doing something that feels wrong for me. Simple really. I do not feel offended in the slightest, those are your projections what I feel is disinterest in being involved in a committed relationship with and no attraction to any ‘man’ who wants to get drunk with their buddies watching two women who they have paid for to take their clothes off and do freaky sex acts. It’s not for me. What others choose to do and feel is right for them is up to them. Obvious to me though that to the woman who wrote in it is not right for her otherwise she wouldn’t be writing in. She would be perfectly happy about it, which logic tells us she isn’t. It’s up to her now to decide now and her alone how important it is to her as an individual. Her and her man have to both choose what is more important to them. I feel lucky that I have not had this problem.personally.
Cat 39

@EMK 37 – I completely agree 100% that insecure women tend to “feel” more insecure in this type of situation. But my point wasn’t about that (her insecurity). My point was more about the idea that men can do whatever they want, regardless of how it affects their woman & your advice is that “trusting your man makes him feel closer to you”. That may very well be true, BUT a man that is open & understanding & tries to help his woman feel secure (if she’s insecure) by certain behaviors (many different areas – not just dealing with strippers or bachelor parties) makes a woman feel much closer to him. It just goes both ways, that’s my point. I agree that she may (or may not) be insecure, my point was there are things men & women both can do to make their spouse “feel closer to them” & I don’t think “get over it” is gonna work in his favor for her to feel closer to him. As I don’t think her mistrusting him makes him feel closer to her.
John 40

Michelle @30 and Karmic Equation @31

Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith that some women are cool with guys going to the occasional bachelor party. You are the type of women that their guy should take out to a fancy dinner the following Saturday for being such a good sport about giving up a Saturday date night so the guy could go out with his friends.

Rose- you are the type of woman that would make the guy not even enjoy the outing with his buddies since he would have to deal with your crap once he got home. You are the ones that the friends would trash behind your man’s back. Wouldn’t be surprised if his friends make comments about you along the likes of “What does he see in her?”
Rose 41

LC 34

“The problem with getting completely drunk and blacking in the vicinity of naked women/men is that you’re no longer in control over what you do or what happens to you. This goes both ways for men and women. I don’t know why anyone would want to get so drunk that they don’t remember what they do, and they risk losing the love of their life if they “consent” to a sexual act while heavily inebriated that they’d never do when they are sober. It wreaks of irresponsibility and weakness. No one’s wife or husband should have to tell them not to go to a bachelor/bachelorette party. One’s own conscious, ability to do the right thing, and good judgement should keep them out of such situations. ”
It feels best to me to make important choices from a fully conscious aware place and the right match for me if they are compatible for me will be on the same page and want the same.
Evan Marc Katz 42

Cat – I don’t disagree that there are hundreds of ways that men can improve their relationships with women. But who is this blog for? Women. So when I give advice to women on how you can adjust (be cooler and more trusting), why do you always insist to remind me that it’s men’s job to change, too? It’s a pointless observation, since I’m a coach who tells women how to understand men, not vice versa. You see my point? It’s not that you’re wrong – it’s that you can take any piece of advice I offer and say, “But MEN–”. That doesn’t change my advice for women, which is to find a man you trust and TRUST him, not carry your insecurities around and make him pay the price.
Rose 43

John.
What makes you think I am bothered by your imaginary scenarios about me that do not exist in my reality? I feel amused how funny.
Reema 44

@ Karmic Equation (31)

There’s a big difference between telling a guy that something he wants to do will hurt me, and controlling him. By no means I’m saying ‘you can’t go’, ‘you’re not going’. He’s a grown man and I’m not his boss; in the end of the day he can do as he wishes. All that I’m telling him is how I feel, why would that be seen as controlling?
There are quite a few women out there who are ok with guys going to strip clubs. If I don’t tell my boyfriend/husband beforeahand that I’m not ok with it, he might assume that I am. And is not even about trust, it’s not even that I think he’ll sleep with any of those girls. It’s just the discomfort in my mind, the mental images of another woman exposing herself like that to my partner, or giing him a lap dance. I’m not sure if it’s my culture, where I’m from most women are not ok with that. So it has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with being honest about how I feel, and not pretending to be ok with something that hurts me. Not being able or comfortable to voice that would be a sad way to be in a relationship.
Cat 45

EMK 42 – Yea – I see your point. It’s just the woman in me seeing the sitch thru my womanly eyes..haha ….And I don’t mean to say men need to change. (But I think they need to put forth some effort) I know your blog is trying to help women understand men, and I think you do a great job!
Evan Marc Katz 46

Appreciated, Cat. But can you imagine how tiring it might be for me to have to justify every piece of advice for women with what MEN are supposed to do? And that’s pretty much what happens here. It’s not that most people are upset at my advice for women; you just want to remind me what men do wrong. In case I wasn’t aware of it, you know? Just a waste of everyone’s time and a distraction from the sound advice in the original post.
Michelle 47

“Thanks for the support and for restoring my faith that some women are cool with guys going to the occasional bachelor party.”

Thanks John, and it’s not only the occasional bachelor party, it’s letting a man be a man. Poor guys, as what was previously stated, women want complete honesty, then hold it against them when they are honest. They can’t win! And I agree with Karmic, if a woman is not having a problem attracting, dating and creating harmonic relationships with QUALITY men, then she should do more of what she’s doing. If she’s not, then perhaps examining why that might be is in order.

I can say the ‘cool’ girls are the ones that have the most success dating quality men that have no desire to cheat, can be themselves, and are chomping at the bit to ‘win’ with her.
Karmic Equation 48

@Reema 44

There’s a big difference between telling a guy that something he wants to do will hurt me, and controlling him.

And there’s a big difference between something that “hurts” you and something that you “don’t like.”

I’m not opposed to telling a man when something hurts me. And if I tell him he’s hurting me, I expect him to stop doing that which hurts me. Are you saying when you tell a man he’s “hurting” you that you’re ok with him continuing to “hurt” you?

Call a spade a spade. You’re using the word “hurt” in place of “don’t like.” Because you know “don’t like” probably won’t stop him from doing what HE likes. So you use the word “hurt” to try to control him. Maybe you’re doing this subconsciously, but you’re doing it nonetheless.

It’s ok if a guy does things you don’t like. Just as you probably do things a guy doesn’t like. But it’s NOT ok if either of you do things that HURT the other.

Words like “hurt” are controlling. Words like “don’t like” express difference of opinions and ideas and allows the other the freedom to choose.
Karmic Equation 49

Amend #48

I should add:

So when you use the word “hurt” make sure that is the truth and it’s not something you “don’t like.” Else that’s like crying wolf such that when he actually does do something that hurts you, you won’t get the change in behavior you want.

+1 Michelle #47

Thanks John 40.
Steve 50

Katherine,
I would let it go.

It is a fairly time honored ritual that men do not view as having any bearing on their feeling for their wives. It is men being men.

If you are like most women, you like your men being men, so think about holding the leash a little bit less tight so you don’t emasculate him.

If he doesn’t regularly do these things, you are worrying over nothing
Fusee 51

Evan #10: I definitely agree with the recommended communcation style! It makes the WHOLE difference, and it does not take any agency away to talk with consideration and accountability. My guy and I always use style #2 communication for sensitive matters (although with less wording I guess) and it’s much easier to take feedback and requests that way.

Evan #17: “In other words, you don’t have to TELL your man to NOT cheat on you. You trust that he WON’T and you don’t interrogate him before or after. That’s what trust MEANS”

I also agree with this view on trust. However what constitutes cheating is different between people, and some people also have additional deal-breakers beside cheating. Being myself on the sensitive side of the spectrum while being naturally trusting (to clarify: just a little sensitive, meaning not as cool as Evan’s wife, but not paranoid or insecure either), I consider it my responsability to observe and possibly ask a new date about certain behaviors that would make me feel uncomfortable and see how they go about them. If my fiance had engaged in behaviors that would trigger too much discomfort, I would have addressed it and if no compromise would have been reached I would have opted out of the relationship peacefully. I also checked in about various topics before committing to him for life to make sure I was not going to have to demand changes or constantly feel uncomfortable because of what he likes to do.

So what I’m trying to say if that communication about some above-average sensitivity has to happen BEFORE anything triggering would happen, so that everyone is on the same page and knows what each party needs in order to feel comfortable. Just assuming that both parties have the same limits and then trust that they will respect limits they do not know about is not the best approach to me because it can lead to the kind of conflict that the Letter Writer is talking about; conflicts that themselves lead to ressentment and unnecessary baggage, which are much more difficult to resolve.

Although I can see how people end up in these situations, it is still beyond me that people commit to marriage without having explored all those questions in depth, and without having made sure that they excel at resolving conflict together. What are people doing during courtship??? The Letter Writer‘s problem is demonstrating so many issues (from both parties) of lack of trust, poor communication, immaturity, defensiveness, etc, that the least problem seems to be the actual stripper show.

And to John #25 and others that claim that “all men enjoy stripper shows and that women have to get over it”: to each their own, really. No judgement towards men who enjoy these shows, and to women who are super cool about it. It’s awesome. However let me say for the record that plenty of men do not attend these shows and that it’s perfectly reasonnable for a woman to pass on men who do and choose a partner with more compatible entertainment preferences. My fiance happens to pass on those shows and keeps the company of same-minded men who enjoy the outdoors and practice martial arts. I did not even have to screen for that quality since it was not a deal-breaker per se, but like attracts like I guess, and the occasional porn use seems to be sufficient for now!
Yuri 52

I can’t say I know how I’d react if I found out my boyfriend went to a party that had full on nude strippers. However, I can say that I will be bookmarking this article for future reference just in case my female crazies decide to appear in the future with regards to this situation.

I would like to think I’d be accepting of the situation. I don’t think he’d sleep with them as I trust him enough to maintain better judgment. In the same vein, I would not blame him for being turned on by the sight of nude women. I mean, isn’t that what porn is for? If I’m completely fine with him watching porn, which I am, then I don’t see how this is any different sans the minute possibility he sleeps with the women…just as long as I can get male strippers of my own. haha
Reema 53

@ Karmic Equation (47/48)

Well thanks a lot for telling me what i’m doing subconsciously in my relationships. Means a lot coming from a random person that simply read a comment that I posted on a dating advice blog.

The word I’d use for that is still ‘hurting’. When it comes to making me feel down and unappreciated , I’d say I’m hurt. I ‘don’t like’ if a guy doens’t clean his mess, is late, etc. hose are things that don’t affect me personally. A guy that I’m with, going to a strip club, affects me personally for the reasons I explained on my initial post. So I don’t see any issue with saying that it hurts me.
People are different. Unfortunately i’m not that ‘cool’ to not care about that. What is better, to not say anything and habor resentment (which I can’t do anyways), or tell him and discuss it , giving us the opportunity to discuss how compatible we are or not on the issue , and on subjects of similar nature?
Rose 54

Michelle, personally I have had no problem attracting quality men. This particular problem has not ever been an issue.
Not sure how a man doesn’t win by being honest and by me being honest if we then find out we are not a match so don’t end up in the wrong relationship.
I personally would see that as win/win as long as we had both been honest from the start. Pretending and hiding who we really are and our inner core values, beliefs morals and feelings is not ever going to get us a real healthy happy ever after. It will only ever get us a fake unhappy dysfunctional one.
Not all married men, or men in committed relationships do this or want to. Some do and some women say they are ok with it. Great they are a match if both parties are being honest.
What I don’t like and believe is harmful is calling women names like silly or encouraging them to call themselves names like this and telling them they are wrong to feel whatever they are feeling. They are not wrong. Just more than likely with the wrong man for them, if there man is doing this and it is a big issue to them.
Nicole 55

Why do these discussion always act as if some women don’t enjoy strippers and/or porn too?
I can’t say I’d get mad at any guy for going to a bachelor party b/c in my experience, the ladies get pretty wild during bachelorette parties or trips too.
One of my female friends had a regular strip club habit in her 20′s b/c where she lived the men could go full nude and were very hot and well-endowed on top of being good dancers. And I think those shows were a bit more “interactive” than anything that would happen in a club with female strippers.
And I got to finally go to one of those shows and the place was packed, and the women were worked up but all I think happened is that the women going home to boyfriends and husbands probably had some very happy men the next morning. (I haven’t been to a club with female strippers but actually I think you can’t touch them but I can say from first hand experience that the men did NOT have that rule).
I personally think what is good for the gander is good for the goose and I wonder about the age of some of the people who are so appalled at the fact that a man might want to see a stripper or some porn.
Rose 56

There is a huge difference between not liking something and something feel painful inside agreed.
Psychological pain is just as real as physical pain. We are all different and to some women this would hurt their heart. This shows up on scans. Their heart would feel hurt.
Feelings and pain are unique to the individual. A general dislike would be a feeling of not too bothered just don’t like it. If someone really just didn’t like something they would hardly be feeling anxious about it. anxiety and stress are harmful to the body. Stress can actually shorten our life and cause many physical problems. Only the individual in question knows how it feels to them and telling someone to toughen up never works. You are telling them to be someone they are not. Telling people not to worry not to be so sensitive, thin skinned is arguing with reality, and who they really are. Which is harmful in itself according to most psychologists. As adults unless we are in a truly helpless victim situation we are ultimately responsible for taking care of our own feelings,so if this causes someone that much pain and bothers them that much then the only responsible thing to do is get away from whatever the cause of that pain. Not pretend it doesn’t bother you and to feel something you don’t which is ok about something someone clearly does not and nobody feelings are WRONG which the person who wrote in is clearly not. Otherwise she would not have written in. They are unique to them. I just don’t see how telling someone to be cool about something because you are or your mate is or wife is and some other women are, because that is your perception and reality is the best thing for someone who in their reality is feeling distressed and anxious.
Henriette 57

Some women like strippers & porn; some don’t. Some women are fine with their men going to see strippers as long as they don’t have intercourse. Some women don’t like their men watching strippers at all.
And, in spite of what popular culture tells us, not all dudes love strippers, either. One guy friend never joins his buddies at strip clubs bc he feels bad watching young women who generally didn’t have a lot of life options take part in “sexual freak shows.” One ex-boyfriend thinks going to strippers is embarrassing and crass bc of its public nature (he enjoys porn a lot, in part bc that’s something he can partake of in private). My most recent boyfriend dated a stripper for close to a year and loved watching her give lap dances to her clients. All 3 are bright guys with big hearts and fine character. Different strokes (or no strokes) for different folks.
I agree whole-heartedly with Fusee, that it’s crucial to let your partner know early in the relationship where your comfort level lies and to see if his/ hers more or less align. Many of you tell the Letter Writer that she shouldn’t worry since her husband probably didn’t have intercourse with a stripper, but maybe that’s not her boundary! She needs to figure out what she’s okay/not okay with, and then find a time to clearly but gently discuss it with her husband. I just wish she’d had this conversation with him a year or two ago.
Rose 58

I agree Henriette it is about her individual boundary around this. Boundaries are healthy. Ignoring your own boundaries and who you really are is not healthy and will just make you ill.In some cases seriously so.. All healthy relationships require healthy boundaries.
Sparkling Emerald 59

Karmic Equation – 48
I respectfully disagree with your take on “hurt” vs “don’t like”. Every day women stay with men who “hurt” them. (actually, men do the same also) Just because they stay, doesn’t mean the behavior is merely something they don’t like. It just means, that for whatever reason, their man keeps hurting them, and they are living with the hurt. There are women who stay in relationships with abusers, cheaters and emotionally distant men. You think they aren’t hurting, just because they stay ? You think they are being controlling because they tell their man that his behavior hurts them, instead of saying they don’t like his behavior ? The reasons women stay are varied, complex and not always easy to understand, but it’s not because the behavior is merely annoying and unlikeable.
Rochelle 60

I agree with Gia, Rose, and Henriette above. Personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable with this either and not all men like to go to strip clubs, etc after they are married. none of the married men in my immediate or extended family do. Nor do any of the married men I personally know. At this point, rather than telling this woman in the OP how she she should feel and she’s insecure for taking an issue with it, the best thing she could do is still state how she feels about it in a non-controlling matter. However, I think as Henriette said, it really should have been something that came up before marriage. If this is something that the guy you are with likes to engage in, rather than forcing him to change, I’d say either learn to accept it or be with a man who doesn’t go to strip clubs regularly.
Karmic Equation 61

@Reema 53

You’re very welcome. It’s always a pleasure trying to help open-minded masochists. You should have said you were a masochist in your post because then I wouldn’t have pointed out that hurting someone you love is not ok. Because I completely understand that masochists don’t mind being hurt and, in fact, actually like it and are absolutely not trying to control their loved ones with the word “hurt”, because they want that hurt to continue and not stop
JustMe 62

Sometimes people don’t know how they feel about something until after it’s over and done. Something like this: couple discusses and decided to experiment with a threesome. They find a third they like who agrees. They all get into a room, everything starts progressing and one of the three realizes they REALLY CAN NOT DO THIS! Actually – this happened to a friend of mine, she was going to be the third and realized she couldn’t go through with it.

Just to throw another thought out there. I have already said I am LDS (Mormon). In our culture, we are taught this is wrong, this is degrading, this isn’t respectful. This is not something that is said everyday but it is a part of the culture in which you are raised. Sometimes it is not that we are insecure; its that it’s part of our upbringing.
Karmic Equation 63

@Sparkling 59

Are you seriously equating the act of a man attending a bachelor party with the acts of men who cheat or who verbally and physically abuses you?

Cheaters and abusers are emotionally and/or verbally and physically abusing you. That’s REAL hurt.

Going to a bachelor party for male bonding or even because one enjoys is not a willful act of hurting someone. A man is as entitled to going to bachelor parties are you are to bachelorette parties. You just have to trust him and if you don’t trust him SAY SO. “I don’t trust that you’re going to behave while you’re at the bachelor party. That’s why I’m having an issue.” — But I bet you don’t want to say that, because doesn’t that sound stupid when said out loud to the man you trusted enough to MARRY?

If I know my man’s going to a strip club REGULARLY, then I’d say “What’s up with that?” And whatever his answer is, I’d say. “Just so you know, I don’t like you going so often” or “I don’t like it that you go at all” or “Once in a while is no problem. Let me know when you do that. I’ll go out with my gfs that night.” Depending on what he says and how he says it will trigger my next move.

But saying he’s “hurting” you is telling him you want him to stop without actually telling him you want him to stop. If you don’t want him to go, TELL HIM “I don’t want you to go.” He’s going to ask why. And you’re going to say “Because I don’t trust that you’ll behave.” And he might call you insecure or he might ask you “What have I done to make you think you can’t trust me?” What do you say to the man you trusted enough to marry?

And you can’t lump “emotionally distant” men into this group. They’re not hurting you on purpose. That’s who they are. Choose better.
Rochelle 64

I also disagree with the OP’s idea to get a male masseuse, ( in attempt to make him jealous, get back at him or stop going anything that has strippers?) What’s the point? I’m not seeing how that’s a solution. That doesn’t solve anything, that’s when it becomes some kind of manipulative game hoping that he gets “the hint”.
Paul 65

I’m gonna take a line from Dr Phil here: the appearance of infidelity is just as bad as actual infidelity. You can complain all day long about how your partner is unreasonable, needs to trust you more, or that you didn’t actually do anything, but it’s still your ass that’s going to get dumped.
Rose 66

Feeling sad is real and it hurts a persons heart. If a woman feels sad that her partner wants to pay for and watch women in real life masturbate or do freaky sex acts for him and his buddies those are her real feelings so he can get turned on that is how she feels.
Just because you do not feel that ir do not understand it doesn’t mean that women is not in real pain Karmic.
You do not know how she feels you are not her. True empathy comes from putting yourself in her shoes and seeing it through her eyes and perspective as if you were her with her feelings and life experiences not yours. We all get that you don’t feel bothered or hurt or in pain about this. We get you are not us. So if it doesn’t bother you and it doesn’t bother the man you are with great you match on this value and issue.
What is clear is the woman who wrote in and her husband do not share this particular inner core value. so are not a match in this area. This will not ever make for a happy healthy marriage. Any marriage guidance counselor would guide you to get to that place .To the place where do you think you can live with this because of your inner moral code and values or not? Which is unique for everyone and needs to match. It’s not about liking the same food, music etc. It’s about inner core matches.
Evan Marc Katz 67

Just found this comment posted by my then-girlfriend on a similar post back in 2007:

“I honestly wouldn’t mind if Evan wanted to go to a strip club because I trust him. And because he hasn’t been to a club the entire time we’ve been dating, so I know it is not some weird addiction. And because he deserves a fun, breast-filled night out with his guy friends. Heck, I might even want to join him because, let’s face it, women’s bodies are beautiful and I can appreciate the aesthetics.

I haven’t always felt this way. In my early twenties, I had a live-in boyfriend who went to strip clubs ALL the time. And it wasn’t just the fact that he could be found at Pure Platinum any random time of the day that bothered me. It was that he lied about it. That made me more suspicious, less trusting and highly uncomfortable. I suppose it’s possible that he anticipated my discomfort, so he lied about the frequent visits to the club. Which, in turn, made me trust him less, and that made him more apt to lie. And around and around we went.

Juliette, if your boyfriend is anything like the guy I dated in my twenties, then I understand your concern. But if he is a normal guy who occasionally goes out to a club with his friends (not just on a random Tuesday during his lunch hour and not as a standing date every Friday with his frat-boy-like compadres), then you really have nothing to worry about. And, as Evan said, if it really hurts you to see him at the club, don’t put yourself through that. He will very much appreciate you making the effort, but if he cares about you, he doesn’t want you to be uncomfortable and sad all night. Just send him on his way with a fistful of dollars (Or is it up to 20′s now? Inflation is a bitch!) and a genuine birthday wish that he have a great time with his friends. He’s going to come home to YOU and that is what counts.”

That’s how it’s done, y’all. If you trust your guy, it’s not a problem. If you don’t trust him, it is a problem. Everything else written on this subject is just filler.
Cat5 68

You know what…if being “the cool girl” means that I actively or passively participate in the sexual exploitation of women (or any type of exploitation of others for that matter), then I am proud to say, ” I am not a cool girl.”
Evan Marc Katz 69

You’ve nailed it, Cat5. You’re probably not a cool girl. And that’s okay. As long as you have no trouble finding a man that you can accept, in full. If you continually find that you’re with men who need to change to suit your sensitivities, you may discover that dating is hard. Dating is a lot easier when you don’t expect people to change for you.
Karmic Equation 70

Rose, let’s take the “sex” part out of the argument and you tell me if this makes sense to you and justifies a person being hurt by the action:

If a woman feels sad that her partner wants to go to work every day to make enough money to pay the bills those are her real feelings that is how she feels. She tells him it hurts her that he has to leave her every day to spend at least 8 hours away from her and she can’t understand why he’s doing this. can’t he only work one day a week instead of five? Can’t he work only 4 hours a day instead of eight? She’s told him over and over again that his going to work hurts her. But he refuses to talk about it.

This man is hurting her by going to work and leaving her alone; and he compounds the problem by refusing to talk to her about it. According to your philosophy, if a woman is saddened by these actions, that is enough to justify her being “hurt” enough to get him to stop going to work or maybe they need to go to couples counseling to fix this core value incompatibility. Only her perception of the situation counts, because she’s the one living her life.

Doesn’t make sense when you take sex out of the argument, does it?

That’s the OP’s problem. That’s your problem. That’s Reema’s problem. Admit you don’t like the sex part. Admit that the word “hurt” is a controlling word and is contextual…and shouldn’t be overused or misused in a relationship.

If you truly love a man and trust him, and are not trying to change him or control him, hurt is a word that should be used sparingly and in the right context.
Cat5 71

Oh Evan…your comment was so unnecessary. Particularly given the fact that you have no idea what I expect/accept in a man, whether I find dating hard, or whether I am cool or not.

It’s a sad commentary on the state of our society/world that being a good and caring person, who volunteers time to helps others (male or female, adult or child) find a way out of exploitive, violent, and desperate situations, and is working to change the systemic issues that result in the exploitation of others – rather than actively or passively sitting around participating in said exploitation — makes that person wrong, and in your opinion — undatable – because he/she has too high of standards. What a messed up world that is.

So here’s a hypothetical — George Clooney lobbies extensively for peace in the Sudan to protect the Sudanese people from rape and murder, and all manner of horrible things. George Clooney starts dating someone (yes I know he’s with Stacey Kiebler but it’s a hypothetical) who has no problem with what’s happening in the Sudan because she is a major shareholder in the an oil company operating there, and the money is pouring into her account because oil stocks just keep rising so she wants to just maintain the status quo rather than do anything to help the Sudanese people. Does that mean if he discusses with her the reasons her behaviors are wrong to him and based on his standards, and tells her that she has to sell her oil stock or they can’t be together — that he is a prude, unaccepting of women and their needs, has too high of standards, will have difficult time dating, and uncool?
Julia 72

@Cat5 I am a bit perplexed as well. One would argue you should find a partner suited for you. If not all men enjoy going to strippers (and the secrets out, some of them don’t) and if you are a woman who would feel betrayed if her partner went to one. Wouldn’t it be ideal for a gal to know if that’s a deal breaker? Let’s take the “cool” part out. Cool is a completely subjective word and what one person thinks is cool another does not. When I asked how you should approach this BEFORE it happens I was told it makes me insecure. My father, whose been married to my mother for 35 years always taught my brother and I “married men don’t get to strip clubs, that is disrespectful to their wife. When my friends invite me to strips clubs I tell them I am married and I feel sad for them.” So if I am a victim of being daughter to an incredibly devoted and trustworthy husband and desire the same I am insecure?

For right now, I am not worried. I have a boyfriend who feels the same way my father does and he offered the info up on his own accord. There are men like that out there to match women who don’t care for their partners going to strip clubs. I would just like a thoughtful suggestion on how to ask BEFORE you ever get to the point of a bachelor party.
Karmic Equation 73

@Cat5 71

No. But if he tells her she’s “hurting” him by being so insensitive to what he values? I think we would both think he’s a wimp for using the word “hurt” in this context. I don’t think he would be perceived as hot as he is if that were known.
Cat5 74

Julia @ 72

I feel I should point out that the demise of my 15-year marriage with my ex-husband (who is still one of my best friends), and the recent break-up of my 3-year relationship with my ex-boyfriend, had absolutely nothing to do with pornography or exploitation of others (sexually or otherwise). Yes, they went to strip clubs occasionally for bachelor parties and sometimes when entertaining business colleagues. And yes…they both knew how I felt about it.

Most importantly though, they both know of the work that I do, and they both respect it enormously and that I don’t pussyfoot around about my feelings on the subject of abuse, neglect, violence, and sexual exploitation. In fact, both of them have helped at fundraisers for the various organizations I work and volunteer with…and even came to see the situation differently after having spent some time doing so. In fact, my ex-husband has commented that porn and strippers was forever ruined for him now.

You know what Burke said: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Another apt quote: “There are truly none so blind as those who refuse to see.”
Selena 75

Julia: I would just like a thoughtful suggestion on how to ask BEFORE you ever get to the point of a bachelor party.

How about bringing up you read a blog where the topic is being debated? Ask your guy what he thinks. Discuss from there.
Amelia2.0 76

I don’t think going to strip clubs by itself is troublesome behavior. I’ve come to realize that it’s the equivalent in function to a bowl of Ben & Jerry’s. It’s a dose of pure pleasure that keeps you feeling OK with life– wholesomeness be damned. Others may disagree, but I won’t argue that a brief indulgence is fine and good for mental health every once in a while.

But if that bowl of Ben & Jerry’s were scarfed down weekly instead of being a once-in-a-while treat, that would be a bit different, I agree. Or if that bowl of ice cream were sought after impulsively without care as to the appropriate time or place. In this case, the dose of pleasure is acting more as an emotional crutch, and is a clear SYMPTOM of ill-managed issues and/or stress, IMO. THAT kind of intemperance is what I think is worth paying attention to in the men they date, not necessarily whether or not he engages in pre-approved activities.

With this analogy, I can imagine the other side as if I had a boyfriend who guilted and judged me for a once-in-a-blue-moon peck of ice cream, saying that it’s bad for my health and will turn me into Shamu, despite the fact that he knows I exercise every other day. I would think he was even more ridiculous if he vowed to have his revenge by going apecrap at a Chinese buffet if I dared have another taste of Chunky Monkey.

My boyfriend liked strip clubs as a bachelor and he did not keep that a secret. I was skeptical if only because most men I had dated who liked such things were BAD at managing it as a diversion as opposed to a shameful obsession, much like how EMK’s then-girlfriend had experienced. Like, it was obvious the guy had issues, and it wasn’t the strip clubs. Dumpville, ahoy.
Reema 77

@ Karmic Equation (61)

Oh wow, you’re so witty! I admire you SO much for that. You’re set for life now.

Btw, I’d still use the word ‘hurt’.
Tom10 78

I agree with Fusee on this one – I just can’t understand how a couple can get to the point of being married without understanding and appreciating the other’s values and sensitivities. When I meet a woman for the first time I make it my business to suss her out and figure out her values as quickly as possible for my own agenda. Within less than an hour of speaking to any particular woman I will have identified where she is on the political spectrum, whether she’s religious / atheist / agnostic, whether she’s easy-going or judgemental, thick or thin-skinned, opinionated or indifferent etc. I use these cues and indicators to hazard a guess at where she lies on the sexual spectrum without having to ask her outright. As Fusee said women should be using the dating period to similarly analyse their man. Knowing these values should help predict how the other will act in situations like this before the event.

However, it’s a bit late for that now so I guess the only thing they can do is both move their positions as close to a compromise as possible.

I’m personally not really into strippers, but I’m even less into women who have a problem with men who do like them, so I wouldn’t date women with these values thus avoiding the op’s problem.

I also agree with John that these parties are more about male camaraderie than actual titillation. I’ve never known a man to actually get aroused at a bachelor party strip show, so I think some of the female readers here can take solace from that.

Cat5 #71
I respect your values and the efforts you make to improve the lives of others but I think Evan’s assertion that these values will result in a smaller pool of men to choose from is a valid point. That’s not necessarily a problem though because you only need one.

“So here’s a hypothetical…George Clooney starts dating someone…Does that mean if he discusses with her the reasons the behaviours are wrong to him and based on his standards, and tells her that she has to sell her oil stock or they can’t be together that he is a prude, unaccepting of women…will have difficult time dating, and uncool”

The problem I have with this analogy is your suggestion that he should even discuss with his hypothetical girlfriend why her behavior is wrong to him, and how she should change for the relationship to succeed. This discussion shouldn’t even happen – he should identify her beliefs and then unilaterally make a decision to accept her or move on. Why would you bother even trying to change someone else’s beliefs when there are others out there with matching beliefs? This doesn’t necessarily make you a prude or uncool, just not a match.
Cat 79

I agree with the poster below. However, (1)Some men may go to bucks parties with strippers (knowing in their heart that they should not support an industry which objectified and demeans women) because they are too weak to go against the peer group for fear of being accused of being pussy whipped and (2) some men may go to strippers because they lack social skills, cant get to see a naked live woman without paying to do so and (3) some may simply see nothing wrong with stripping AND THAT WOULD BE A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR ME AND IT INDICATES LACKS OF EMPATHY FOR THE WOMEN INVOLVED IN THE SEX INDUSTRY.
Ladies if your man says he has used prostitutes or gone to strip bars and sees nothing wrong with it and expresses no remorse or concern for the women involved he LACKS EMPATHY. If he lacks empathy for them watchout as that lack of empathy may flow to you

This women is not thin skinned. She justifiably put off by her husbands inappropriate behavior. Watching fully naked women engage in a sexual display for entertainment is a show of disrespect to your marital commitment. It’s also exploitation of another human being. I’m so sick of this boys will be boys justification for objectifying and exploiting women and betraying your wife. This isn’t an issue of jealousy. It’s an issue of respect. Why is watching two 18 year old girls (who are probably runaways from abusive homes) use a two way dildo so important? It’s wrong in every way. Why is it worth causing your wife so much distress? Why is the bachelor party so sacred? Why is taking advantage of a desperate persons vulnerability justifiable if it serves the male “visual proclivity”? It’s wrong. Men are not entitled to this because they’re men and “that’s how men are” so it must be accepted and allowed. Treating your wife this way is wrong. Taking advantage of some young girl just because she’s willing to put herself through this is wrong. There’s no justifying it. A decent man would not enable the choice of a misguided young women to put herself in a position that will cause further damage to her self esteem. A decent man would recognize that just because someone is willing to harm them self doesn’t mean that it’s okay to exploit that as an opportunity to take advantage of them. Evan you should be the one to “grow up” and “let go”. This is a contentious issue for most couples on the eve of their wedding. Accepting this bull shit is forced on women under the assertion that men are entitled to this. We don’t have to accept this. If it’s important enough to you to cause your wife severe upset, then you shouldn’t be getting married.
Cat 80

Just a disclaimer that post #79 did not come from this “Cat”…EMK can verify. Guess I have to change my user name! Was that a Cat5 post?
Ruby 81

The OP wrote:

“The issue is that he did not make me aware of the strippers. Later, I saw him bending over and on his ass was a bunch of permanent marker.”

What stands out for me is this post are these two sentences. I think her husband should have told her about the strippers. Also, is it common for a guy to drop trou at a private party, exposing his nether regions, and have his ass scribbled on, by whom, the strippers? It sounds like it wasn’t just the strippers who were exposed. The guy didn’t just go to a strip club where he couldn’t expose himself, lest he be thrown out, he was at a private party. I also wouldn’t be thrilled that my husband got so smashed that he couldn’t remember what happened that night, the next day. How does any of that build trust?

Some women – and men – might have no problem with this activity, but some would. It’s not right or wrong to have opinions and preferences about these things. Personally, I don’t think that the OP needs to consult a dating coach (she’s already married), but she needs to talk to her husband about how she feels. If you’re not certain what goes on at a bachelor party, ask. If something bothers you, SPEAK UP!
Sparkling Emerald 82

I have mixed feelings on the whole “sex-ploitation” thing. Certainly many women who end up with a pole for a dance partner were manipulated into such a course. Perhaps ran away from an abusive home, turned to survival sex, and found a “friend” who “helped” by making her a fake ID saying she was 18, so she could get into the business.
But not every stripper has such a sad story. Some women are proud of their bodies, enjoy performing, perhaps even studied dance, and ENJOY what they do.
Trouble is, how do you tell which women are being exploited and which women made a complete free-will decision and enjoy what they do ? Answer, you can’t.
And in a strip club, where there are big beefy bouncers to insure that men look but don’t touch, these dancers can shake their booty right in someone’s face, and if he’s liquored up enough, she might even end up with half his paycheck in her garter, and he didn’t even get to touch her. And I’m sure there’s a strict “no refunds” policy at most clubs. Maybe she enjoys getting paid to be a tease (hence the term “stripTEASE”) and having a squad of big beefy males around to protect her from a rowdy customer. So who’s exploiting who in that situation ?
I had no problem with my hubby’s bachelor party, which included him being handcuffed and “arrested” by a lady cop/stripper. He even gave me the pics, and they are in the very back of my wedding scrap book, right behind the pics of my bridal shower and rehearsal dinner. BOY, did I get an earful from some other women about how could I “let” him do that, blah, blah, blah. (Judging from the pics, it was pretty tame, after all he was handcuffed, couldn’t do much more than look now, could he ? )
I have a problem with the diamond industry, and now that I know about blood diamonds, I will never purchase or wear a piece of jewelry with diamonds. If I ever get engaged again, it WON’T be with a diamond. Trouble is not ALL diamonds are blood diamonds but apparently, you can never know for sure which diamonds are, and which aren’t. Just like with the strippers, how do you know which ones are being exploited and which ones are willing participants ?
Which is why I don’t lecture my engaged girlfriends about “blood diamonds” nor would I lecture my guy or any other guy about the sex-ploitation of strippers.
The OP obviously has a problem with it, and I hope she can make peace with it somehow. Weather it’s by completely accepting it, walking away, or living with it, with a lump in her throat. I think many women eventually learn to swallow some minor pain in a relationship. Doesn’t make them manipulative if they say they were “hurt”, just that the hurt wasn’t enough to throw away the relationship, but was more than just an annoyance.
sarahrahrah! 83

Kathleen,

Another option that I didn’t see mentioned is to get your marriage annulled. It might be embarrassing, but it beats the alternative of wasting your precious fertile years with someone you don’t trust. If this doesn’t improve with the stripper situation for the next bachelor party, it won’t get better over time. Sounds sad, but you could get out now before there is major emotional damage (and possibly children) later on.
Cat 84

I agree with Sparking Emerald, kind of torn on the exploitation argument. I think some women strip as a choice & don’t care if they are exploited, they are laughing all the way to the bank. With my history, my problem would not be my husband going to a bachelor party, it would be the unwillingness to discuss it if I asked. That is just all based on our history, so maybe that is where the OP is coming from. Like Evan’s wife (then g.f.) posted some years ago about being okay with Evan going to a strip club vs her ex boyfriend going to the strip club. She didn’t like the ex going because she didn’t trust him & he lied to her, so she would ask more questions which made him lie more & it became a vicious cycle. So her questions didn’t make him lie, his lies actually made her question. And that has also been addressed in another blog about how men lie because women ask too much but I think it goes both ways. As Evan’s wife illustrated. My point is, the OP letting it go & not asking any more about it will not help her in the long run, it will fester more distrust in the future & more questions later. I know because that’s how I lived for years! Unfortunately like the OP I am already married to the man. And like me, if she were reading Evan’s blog before she married him, she might not still be with him. Don’t stay with men you don’t trust ladies! Evan’s golden rule!
Joe 85

@ Sparkling Emerald #82:

Not all diamonds are blood diamonds, but all diamonds are the product of a cartel–DeBeers.
Michelle 86

Try to evaluate your husband’s needs. Try to extract his thoughts about stripping. Estimate a rough guess that rather than having direct sex, does he want you to strip first and for some reason not asking you to do that. It would be good if you can hold up an open conversation with him over the stripping issue.
Elena 87

I also wanted to say as to how people should or should not feel about strippers that’s a personal issue and we can’t tell people how to’ feel’ about it or to be ‘cool’ about it. While there may be some women who genuinely enjoy stripping I do agree with the one lady who mentioned that there can be an exploitative aspect to it. I agree with her because the half dozen or so females that I have known who stripped at one time or another all came from either abusive family backgrounds or had heavy drug addictions. I even have a male friend of mine who takes his business clients to strip clubs at their request say the same thing. The majority of women who are stripping have either been abused or are drug addicted or are trying to pay the high cost of college in doing it. They aren’t doing it by choice. Seriously..how many women actually enjoy dancing around naked for every man out there instead of for their one special man.. That is just a fact. So people have their individual reasons for how they feel about it and it doesn’t make them cool or uncool. I consider myself to be very accepting of men’s visual interest in the female form as long as they are respectful to their partner about it and I fully recognize that the visual interest in nudity has nothing to do with how much they love their partner. But again, we can’t tell people how they should feel about a stripper right in front of their loved one..up close..whether its male or female.All else aside, the heart of the issue here is the lady’s partner failing to discuss or mention the fact that there would be strippers at the bachelor party. That Mr. Katz is the issue you haven’t addressed. And I think your response to her is negating her feelings. Her partner not telling her about this until after the fact has created a trust issue for her. I can relate this incident to one in my own life where my ‘male’ partner got upset over something I did not tell him about BEFOREHAND and that incident in my own life was nothing near as potentially upsetting as strippers could be. That was my responsibility to clear the matter up for him..not his responsibility to just ‘let it go’. Off course she is still having nagging doubting feelings about as it hasn’t been properly dealt with. Men are every bit as susceptible to a nagging doubt or trust question when things aren’t disclosed beforehand and for sure my partner would be highly upset if I had a bachelorette with male strippers fully naked in close proximity to me especially if I did not tell him! In fact he would go ballistic. So this is not a male or female thing..it’s about respecting the friendship aspect of a relationship and avoiding ‘omissions’ which an lead to trust issues.
elena 88

Lets be honest here…we are ALL of us susceptible to sexual jealousy..whatever you want to call it. When I ay ALL I mean men too. I have a partner who has been cheated in his past by more than one female and as a result he can be like a rabid dog sometimes in a slightly valid but also slightly irrational fear of some other male enticing me. I say irrational because my moral code is such that I don’t care if the most handsome man in the world tried to seduce me it just wouldn’t happen. My devotion and love and bond to my partner is such that nobody could make me stray. And it goes even beyond moral code..I respect and value the gift from life of my partner’s love..why would I blow it to do something sexually with someone else, whether caught or not I would know it…which leads me to another point..because the man had at some point his pants down and doesn’t remember what happened..who knows in the lady’s mind whether he means that or whether it is a convenient way of not talking about about it if something did happen and he does know it. When an incident such as this stripping thing without the lady and her partner talking about it first occurred followed by the man not remembering anything then NO DOUBT right now the dear lady has been asking questions..questioning who her husband is. I disagree Mr. Katz with the comment about she knows him after 2-3 years together. Sometimes a person’s true moral character is not known until many years later because they kept it hidden well..shouldn’t be that way but people and what they might do in any situation can surprise us or come as a great shock. That is the point..trust issue..that is what she has right now. Did he ‘blank’ the stripper or come close in some way..something sexually inappropriate. That is what she is worrying about as he did not tell her beforehand. BTW I appreciate you giving everyone a voice on these questions. All it takes is one tiny seed of doubt for trust to be compromised and that has a ripple effect in a marriage..comes out in other ways. I also fully understand the point about men do not want to be badgered accused or attacked verbally and that things have to be handled a cerain way..but I am sorry, her husband needs to man up and take responsibility for the fact that his lack of disclosure created this issue for the bride and they need to have a real converseation about it..as much as he may not like that. The alternative is to have the bride wondering and that affecting the relationship which ultimately if the trust issue is not resolved will affect the love she is able to give him. Now she can approach him in a certain way..yes..agreed..but they need to get to the bottom of it period whether it is uncomfortable for him or not ..it is what it is..she needs to know whether or not the man she gave herself too in the ultimate commitment..marriage is worthy of her trust or not and has moral boundaries that he won’t cross or not…it’s not about finding the stripping arousing..that is natural..its about how much further it went or did not and why did he hide it from her ?
Brittany 89

Evan’s then girlfriend pretty much summed it up. However, there are guys out there that couldn’t possibly imagine being around strippers ever. Maybe you can find one of those very very few men. But wait, will they have all the other qualities you deem important? Or will the only thing you have in common is your conservative views on strippers?
My suggestion is simple… Get over it. If you trust him then you trust him. If you don’t you don’t. If you don’t that seems to be the bigger issue here.
If your response to that is I do trust him wholeheartedly but it still makes me too uncomfortable… Then talk with him calmly and openly and if he is the man you think you married, I’m sure you can compromise and come up with a happy medium. But remember compromise is two sided, you may have to give a little as well.
GreatGal 90

There’s a lot of pressue to be ‘cool’ with our bf’s and fiances going to strip clubs. I have never been to one myself but is it too idealistic of me to wish that my man keep his sexual ogling for my pleasure only? I understand that he may build up his desire throughout his day, glacing at other girls etc. but would it be so difficult to find a man who respects my wishes and not go to a strip club nowadays? To not have a near naked woman gyrate in front of him?
Or has society evolved to such a point where if a man doesn’t go during someone’s (or his own’s) bachelor party, then he’s not a good buddy or a ‘ real hot-blooded man’?
And if I make a request, then I am not a ‘cool girl’ although it goes against every fiber of my being?
What a conundrum for modern North American men and women!
JoeK 91

Haha…I just started writing a response to GreatGal #90 when I re-read Brittany #89 and realized she’d already covered most of what I was going to say!

Well done, Brittany!
Nicole 92

Evan your blog is a HUGE SOURCE of WISDOM!!
Last weekend my boyfriend was telling me about his business trips in the US he went on in his 20′s/30′s and he said he went to strip clubs with his male colleagues several times. Apart from the pure erotic view of naked women, he admitted he also liked feeling the utterly american atmosphere of these clubs (we are European).
While he told me this whole story in extreme comfort, I was kind of SHOCKED (I was raised in a Cathloic environment) tried to hide my feelings and started to think how miserable I was being with this guy, how far I was from being with a man of value etc…etc….
Then, I thought: what does Evan think about this whole topic (I reminded similar old blog posts about it) and searched for them in the blog on my smart-phone (while I was at my boyfriend’s place), and here we are … I found this new post, re-read the older ones and FELT MUCH MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE and curious to listen to his stories in a really OPEN and non-judgemental way.
And there it was, a story that could have turned out into a tragegy, just became a nice old story whcih helped me in better understanding my bf.
And I appreciated the fact that he felt absolutely comfortable in telling me everything!
Paula 93

I would think that him having sex when he got home would be a good sign because it means he probably didn’t have sex at his bachelors
Karmic Equation 94

I think a lot of you are getting it wrong about what being “cool” means. Being cool doesn’t mean that you don’t “feel” any pain, annoyance, anger, fear. It doesn’t mean you “don’t mind” the behavior. Being cool means you understand the difference between a to-may-to / to-mah-to situation and a truly unacceptable situation and can act and react accordingly. Being cool is about how you ACT when you feel those things and how you CONVEY those feelings to your significant other.

If OP were cool, she should have said “Look, I don’t want you to go to the bachelor party next month, because I don’t trust what goes on there. I don’t trust that you’re going to keep your pants on. The last time you went to one, you came home with marks on your ass, which means you dropped trou. Maybe it was innocent, but you can’t remember or won’t tell me, so I can only assume the worst. You’re a grown man so I can’t stop you from going if you want to go. But if you come home in that state again, our relationship is in trouble.”

State the problem. State the consequences. Leave the “you’re hurting me, you don’t respect me, why are you doing this, I thought you loved me, yada yada” out of it. That’s how you act coolly, without being a doormat.

Real story:
About a year after my 6yr ex moved in together, I added him to my cell phone plan for economy. I never checked his call log onine, until one day I got a text from him that was obviously not intended for me. I went postal and demanded an explanation. He was flirting with an obese co-worker to make her feel better as she had helped him with a difficult situation at work. I never asked to see pictures of her or anything because I remembered him talking about her before and had mentioned her being big. However, I still made him call the woman he was texting so I could talk to her. She was apologetic and matter of fact. I believed them both and let it go.

After that incident, I would periodically check his call logs. Everything was normal. He texted her maybe once or twice after that, but not in a series. But I continued the periodic checking of the call logs…and one day, about a year after that, while he was home sick (he had been sick for a few days) — I noticed he made several calls to 800 numbers in a row. So I reverse-looked them up. They were to escort services. I decided to go home for lunch, and usually if he’s sick I’d call him to ask what he wanted and picked up lunch for both of us on the way home. This time, I just went home without calling him. I had my suspicions and wanted to catch him in the act, if he was doing what I thought he was doing.

I came home and was quiet. Usually I’m happy and chipper, so he knew something was up. I ate my lunch in silence while he watched TV, laying down on the sofa. When I finished lunch I pulled up an ottoman sat down face level and asked “What’s up with calling the escort services?” He explained. It was a crazy explanation that actually made a modicum of sense…He couldn’t afford to call a 900-number, so he called the escort services to describe the sex acts he wanted…and they would talk to him for a bit until they realized he wasn’t going to be a client and then hung up on him. He did this with several escort services. When he was done explaining, I looked him in the eye, tears brimming, because it hurt that he would even do such a thing, and said quietly, “I believe you. But don’t ever do that again.” Then I went back to work. 20 minutes later, he called me to apologize profusely, tearily. I said, “I know. Don’t do it again and we’ll be fine.” Then I let it go because I believed him.

I can tell you I didn’t feel cool in either of the situations above. I was more interested in making sure that neither situation happened again than to roast him over the fire for hurting me. He knew he hurt me, I didn’t have to cry or lecture him on that. And my forgiving him his stupidity pretty much ensured he stopped being that same kind…or similar kind…of stupid ever again. Except for the alcoholism…which ran in his family, which he refused to address. I could forgive his alcoholism, but I couldn’t forgive his unwillingness to seek help. That’s when I said “next.”
JoeK 95

@Elena #87

“The majority of women who are stripping have either been abused or are drug addicted or are trying to pay the high cost of college in doing it. They aren’t doing it by choice.”

Show us some facts, Elena – otherwise this is all hearsay.

Also the logic in that statement is flawed – nothing you said supports the claim that they aren’t doing it by choice, least of all that some are paying for tuition by stripping. That seems to me like a VERY conscious and intentional choice.

What I’ve noticed in this dialogue (and I find disheartening) is how much some women here are using the same tactic as the OP to paint men as lacking ethics for going to strip clubs, and use that to curtail real dialog about the trust issue in relationships.

Some have repeatedly made unsupported claims about stripping, and used those claims to try and shame men for going to strip clubs – essentially saying they’re to blame for any women who are abused…without even proving women are being abused.

A very “victim-ey” approach, and one that most men can quickly recognize and steer clear of.

So please, stop with the shaming tactics, it was old when I was 15 – men have become pretty much immune to it – we just leave you. Listen to smart women like Karmic – someone who doesn’t blame men for everything.
Cat5 96

JoeK @ 95:

The attached link contains facts and statistics regarding sex trafficking in the United States, including: Fake Massage Businesses, Internet Based*, Residential Brothels, Hostess & Strips Clubs, Escort Services, and Truck Stops.

http://www.polarisproject.org/human-trafficking/sex-trafficking-in-the-us
*pornography is included under this subheading.

A few more facts and statistics: (I was looking for the presentation I was at recently but it is not posted yet so this is from my notes – when the presentation is posted, I will try to remember to come back and post the link):

#4 destination in the world for sex tourism — Atlanta, GA, USA
#1 event for trafficking in commercial sex — The Superbowl
Avg. age of individuals sex trafficked in Europe — 19
Avg. age of individuals sex trafficked in the U.S. — 13
Avg life expectency of an individual being trafficked for sex – 7 years
#1 cause of death of individuals trafficked for sex — suicide
#2 cause of death of individuals trafficked for sex – homocide

So a likely outcome for an individual (usually female) being trafficked for sex in the U.S is to commit suicide by the age of 20.
Frimmel 97

The Superbowl is the number on event for sex trafficking? Are you sure?

http://www.houstonpress.com/2012-02-02/news/the-super-bowl-prostitution-hoax/

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2011-03-03/news/super-bowl-prostitution-100-000-hookers-didn-t-show-but-america-s-latest-political-scam-did/
Frimmel 98

And one more fun one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/29/seeking-arrangement-college-students_n_913373.html?page=2
Cat 99

@JoeK 95 – I have to agree that a lot of women blame men for everything. I can say that even though I wouldn’t like my husband going to a strip club, I wouldn’t blame him for going or say that he is immoral either. I also don’t believe that ALL strippers or women in porn are being exploited & believe many do it by choice. With that said, I still don’t feel comfortable thinking about my husband sitting in an atmosphere where he’s watching/fantasizing/getting turned on by other women – even though I trust that he would never do anything further than watch/look. As you stated you get “disheartened” that many women paint men as having bad ethics if they go to a strip club. In the same way it’s disheartening for you about women, it disheartens me that so many men make a conscious choice to go to these clubs even when their girlfriend voices her disapproval. I would argue that there are more women in the world that feel uncomfortable with their man going to a strip joint than vice versa. And all the women that say they are “cool” with it aren’t totally “cool with it” (see post #94). Women may act “cool” about it but deep down they may not be. What’s truly disheartening to me is to see all the posts telling an OP that her feelings are not valid, she’s insecure, over bearing, asking too much, yada yada. That’s what’s disheartening. In my world at least (& thank god), a relationship is a 2 way street, give & take on both sides. It’s not a man saying “I do this because I’m a man & it’s my right & you have to get over it & don’t you dare ask any questions” – the end. That is a terrible relationship, but it seems so much of the time the advice is just that….Your man can do whatever he wants regardless of how you feel about it & just put up with it. That is no way to live. Don’t pretend to be “cool” with something you’re not cool with.
Joe 100

I can hardly believe that the life expectancy for an individual trafficked for sex is 7 years. That would mean that a large number of people UNDER THE AGE OF 7 would need to be trafficked AND DIE.
Cat5 101

Frimmel @ 97 and 98:

As I pointed out in my post, that was one of the items the presentation is not posted yet, and I took it from my notes. Am I sure? Well, how sure are you? JoeK asked for facts and statistics and I provided them for him. Did you even bother to read the information contained on the site I provided to whih I provided a link?

I — just like you and many, many other people – can only rely on facts and statistics provided by others, which of course, can be skewed…by anyone…to try and make any point they want. I was just providing another piece of the puzzle. You can choose to believe, investigate it further, ignore it, or make fun of it…whichever works for you. However, as I recall the information came from law enforcement agencies, and it was not 100,000 like your second article suggested. IIRC, the number was somewhere around 10,000-20,000.

What I do know is this — it exists, it is more prevelant then most Americans want to acknowledge, it is very fast growing and ever expanding problem, and it isn’t pretty. I know this because I deal with individuals in these types of situations in my volunteer job. The exact number is the only thing up for debate, which to me is the most irrelevant issue. The fact it exists is very fast growing and expanding problem in American is really the issue…isn’t it? But, let’s waste time debating the total numbers.

As for your post at #98 – the link did not work for me. I tried it several times. So, I’ll I can say is — WOW!!! I’m not sure what to say that you find this issue “fun.” I wish you had been with me at the conference I referenced. Wonder how much fun you would have found it when talking to the actual individuals.
Evan Marc Katz 102

A disheartening turn when a question about communication and morality within a relationship turns into a thread about the statistics of sex trafficking…

I want to bring this back to the spirit of the original point – and thank Cat #99 for bringing up something unintentionally. She says, “In my world at least (& thank god), a relationship is a 2 way street, give & take on both sides. It’s not a man saying “I do this because I’m a man & it’s my right & you have to get over it & don’t you dare ask any questions” – the end.”

What you’re not acknowledging – what women here often have a hard time acknowledging – is that, essentially, you’re suggesting that while it’s wrong for a man to say “It’s my right to go to a strip club”, it’s perfectly acceptable for his wife to DENY him that right and for him to get over it. In this world, whatever ANYBODY says HAS to be respected because relationships are a two-way street. Didn’t it occur to you, Cat5, that just because someone feels a certain way (in this case: insecure), it’s not necessarily valid for them to impose it on others? If you had a boyfriend who insisted that you defriend all of your male Facebook friends, wouldn’t it be fair for you to say, “I do this because I’m a woman and it’s my right and you have to get over it and don’t you dare ask any questions, the end!”? I think it would.

By giving your partner veto power over all of your actions under the guise of “fairness” or “equality” or “sensitivity”, you enter into a very strange place where censorship is the norm. He has to walk on eggshells for you. You have to walk on eggshells for him.

Here’s my paradigm, which is much more empowering and successful in actual relationships and is based on security, not insecurity:

Let everything go, short of physical/verbal abuse, cheating, poor treatment, lack of availability, failure to commit. If you CAN’T or WON’T let it go, that’s fine. Find a new boyfriend.

Just don’t make the mistake of acting like micromanaging your boyfriend is a good or healthy idea. Accept him as he is, or leave. I did an hourlong call in FOCUS Coaching this month called “Bad Behavior vs. Misunderstood Behavior”. I suggest you give it a listen and see how it works.
Karmic Equation 103

@Cat5

I had always wanted to see what the big deal was about strip clubs. About 6 months into my relationship with my 6yr bf, we actually went to one. It wasn’t like they portray it Striptease, not so classy. The dancing, if you could call it that, was not remotely interesting or athletic or even to the beat of the music. I even bought my bf a lapdance to see what that was all about. All I could do was roll my eyes. I really didn’t see the big deal, but his reaction was typical male, eyes glazed over and you could see his reptilian brain take over, e.g., the thinking brain was NOT working, only his eyes. Was actually amusing.

While most of the women had great bodies, they had some cellulite, jiggly butts, and their faces showed some hard living and stage makeup is usually pretty unflattering, so you couldn’t even see if their faces were attractive or not, not that the men looked that far up.

Once the mystery was out and I saw first-hand what it was all about, I can honestly say that it wasn’t a big deal to me. I think men in good relationships may like the visual titillation but I they’re not thinking “I’d like me some of that”, those women aren’t relationship-worthy. A step up from playboy, but quite far from porn. Now men in bad relationships or men of low character? Yeah, there could be trouble there.

Still goes back to the quality of the relationship. If the relationship is good, there is nothing to worry about. If the relationship is bad, the stripclub is the least of your concerns.
Cat5 104

JoeK asked for statistics, and since I was at a conference earlier this week that discussed relevant statistics, I provided a link to them.

To me, it’s perplexing that men and a growing number of woman (both as consumers of commercial sex and perpetrators of sex trafficking) have such a difficult time acknowledging, and in fact often deny, the inherent problems and ties between the commercial sex trade and sex trafficking, all the problems that go with these issues, and why it might be an issue for some women. I guess it’s easier to bury their head in the sand and just say, “It’s my right to go to a strip club” and call the women who have a problem with it “prudes,” then face up to their roll as consumers of commercial sex. Of course, it all comes down to the idea: “It’s not my problem.”
Evan Marc Katz 105

@Cat5 – You can make everything your problem if you like. You can boycott Apple products that are made in sweatshops in China. You can refuse to buy Domino’s Pizza or Coors beer or Chik-Fil-A because of their associations with racists, anti-semites and homophobes. You can avoid buying “blood diamonds” from South Africa. There are millions of things that you can protest once you get deep into their origin stories. That’s is 100% your right. It’s also other people’s rights to not do so.

No one is defending sex trafficking and the sale of little girls.

It is a different issue than whether a man should be “allowed” to go to a strip club on his bachelor party. That was what the original post is about, in case you forgot.
Karmic Equation 106

Thanks, Joe, for the vote of confidence. I wouldn’t necessarily characterize my attitude as not blaming men, but rather owning my own feelings and understanding my power within a relationship. Men might exacerbate or elicit certain feelings, but my feelings and what I CAN and SHOULD do about them are all on ME.

If there’s any takeaway women should have from my posts, it’s that women have more power in a relationship than she knows, but it starts with taking ownership of all the feelings and thoughts and behaviors she has, that is, be as fully self-aware as possible. Then accepting oneself (usually easy) or changing oneself (not so easy) or controlling oneself (also not always easy) becomes possible. It’s impossible to accept, change, or control what you don’t acknowledge.
Clare 107

Karmic Equation 103

Yes! I went with my ex-husband to a strip-club and it absolutely cured me of any jealousy or insecurity in that regard.

I was able to see for an indisputable fact that the girls there were no threat to me, and now I wouldn’t have a problem with a boyfriend going to a strip-club at all, as long as he didn’t make a habit of it.
AllenB 108

While most of the women had great bodies,…their faces showed some hard living and stage makeup is usually pretty unflattering
Did they look happy doing what they were doing for a living? How would you feel if your boyfriend frequented cock fighting or dog fighting establishments, and those are only animals.
Ruby 109

Actually, the original post was about strippers at a private house party, not strip clubs, which are a much more controlled environment.

Also, there seems to be two different objections to strip clubs or parties where there are strippers. One is an issue of trust; that the woman’s partner is not engaging in any sexual behavior with the stripper(s), and the other is a more global objection to the exploitation of women. I think they’re both valid objections, and even being male doesn’t automatically mean that you’re into strip clubs, etc.
Cat5 110

@ Evan

Nope Evan. I didn’t forget. I don’t believe I have said anything about what a man or woman in a relationship should be “allowed” to do by the other person.

My issue has always been that if a woman has a problem with strip clubs and porn, she is automatically labeled a prude (since 87% of men do both) and insecure, rather than a reasonable person with a valid objection to practices she finds offensive and exploitive.

If a person chooses to not buy Apple products, blood diamonds, Coors beer, Dominos Pizza, or Chik-fil-a because he/she finds their practices/political stances to be offensive and exploitive, I don’t believe you and others would be belittling/trying to discredit that person’s viewpoint in the same way, i.e., by calling the individual a prude or saying he/she is insecure. You would, IMHO, probably respect that viewpoint and the fact he/she took a stand on it.
Cat5 111

Karmic Equation @ 103:

I am not sure why you directed your about your visit to the strip club to me. I have never said or even indicated that I was in anyway jealous because a man I was in a relationship with went to a strip club. In fact, in Post #74 I said that my exes had gone for business and bachelor parties. They were honest with me that they were going, and I was honest about my concerns about strip clubs because of the volunteer work I do. I did not “allow” or “stop” them from going…I am not their mother or priest…nor did I berate them or anything like that for going. In turn, they understood and respected my viewpoint and the volunteer work I do, and did not call me a prude or insecure.

For the record, I have been to a number of strip clubs, although when I am in one, I am always in the company of law enforcement. I have to confess…what I have witnessed…is not an attractive sight, be it the owners, the managers, the patrons, and/or the strippers. My observations are that most, if not all of the people involved, appear…pathetic…for lack of a better word. Interacting with them, and watching them interact with others, I just feel sadness that they believe this is the only option available to them…to exploit others or be exploited. I have not seen one person who I thought felt empowered or in control of their lives. Most of them seem like they are either in denial of their role in the situation or they feel trapped without hope of ever doing anything else.

To assess whether the dancers are attractive, dance “classy,” have cellulite, have jiggly butts or anything else like that…never occurs to me. Mostly, I notice how sad their eyes are.

Of course, YMMV.
Robyn 112

@Evan 105 – re: “blood diamonds” from South Africa… “blood diamonds” (a.k.a. conflict diamonds) are NOT from South Africa – they are diamonds “mined in a war zone and sold to finance an insurgency, invading army’s war efforts, or a warlord’s activity”.
Most blood diamonds have come from the Central and Western African countries that were in civil war / unrest during the 1980′s to early 2000′s.
South Africa was instrumental in setting up the Kimberley Process Certification Scheme in 2003 that has had some success in curtailing the flow of conflict diamonds and has helped several developing countries to legitimize their diamond industries, so that they can sell their diamonds legally.
Yeah, I know this doesn’t have much to with bachelor parties or strippers, but as a South African I gotta set the record straight on this one.
Karl T 113

Cat5,
I think your exploitation argument is bogus. Maybe in some very rare extreme cases, but not to the level you are speaking of. I am talking about the typical strip club, not some private place where sex slaves are trafficked to. I think we’re talking about 2 different things. Most girls at the local strip joint love all the money they make from googley eyed men who cough it up for them like it was water.
cat 114

I wasn’t suggesting that “while it’s wrong for a man to say “It’s my right to go to a strip club”, it’s perfectly acceptable for his wife to DENY him that right and for him to get over it.”….I don’t think a woman has the right to DENY a man’s right to go anywhere. And I don’t think a man has the right to deny a woman’s right to her feelings or voicing them. It goes both ways. Karmic explained it very well in #94. Men can do what they want, what is wrong is when they deny a woman’s right to communicate how she feels or deny any conversation about things she has questions about – that’s wrong. I don’t have objections to occasional visits to strip clubs by my husband, I would, however, have objections to him being secretive about it or not answering questions if I had some. And, if my husband voiced his negative feelings to me about me being friends with exes on FB, I would take his feelings into consideration & probably defriend the exes. In our relationship, his feelings about something are more important to me than being FB friends with some random people from my past that are not relevant. It has nothing to do with him “micro managing” our relationship or being “insecure” or “controlling”. Just like a woman saying “I don’t feel comfortable with you going to A or B” is controlling or micro managing or insecure either. If a man’s need to visit strip joints is so great that it trumps his woman’s discomfort, than he’s probably not relationship material in the first place. It all goes back to the golden rule of life, “treat others as you would like to be treated” & it’s also about having good communication in a relationship. Shutting someone off from voicing their feelings or opinions will not work in a relationship. The “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy isn’t the answer for good relationships.
Karmic Equation 115

My response #103 should have been directed at Cat #99 rather than at Cat5. Sorry for the confusion.
Cat5 116

Karl T @ 112:

That’s fine Karl T. You have every right to believe that my exploitation argument is bogus, and I totally understand why you do believe it…and why you want to believe it.

It does not appear you read anything on the link I included above, so I’m attaching it with the strip club specific information.

http://www.polarisproject.org/human-trafficking/sex-trafficking-in-the-us/hostessstrip-clubs

You can choose to read it, believe it, ignore it, or say it’s bogus. That is your prerogative. But, I would only ask that you at least research multiply sources that provide information on both sides of the argument before you call my comments bogus.

As for me, I did just that…researched both sides of the argument from multiple sources for and against the commercial sex trade, including pornography and strip clubs. But, I took it a step further. I began volunteering to help individuals in the commercial sex trade. I’ve seen first hand the things described in the above link, so I know that information is true, and far more prevelant than most people in America want to believe…because if they did believe it, then they would have to re-examine their behaviors and how that behavior plays a roll in the commercial sex trade.

FYI – I have never been in a private place with sex slaves. I have only ever been in strip clubs.
Evan Marc Katz 117

You would defriend your exes for your partner, Cat.

I would not marry a partner who would ask me to defriend my exes.

Therein lies the difference. I value partners who are secure and find insecure people to be the most exhausting in the world.

Just because someone else has an insecurity doesn’t mean it has to impact my life. I would highly recommend that everyone choose secure partners. The alternative is what Cat described above – he’s constantly censoring himself for her insecurities, she’s constantly censoring herself for his insecurities, and nobody feels satisfied or self-expressed because they’re not allowed to be themselves.
JoeK 118

@Cat # 96

“Avg. age of individuals sex trafficked in the U.S. — 13″

So what that means is most sex trafficking in the US is NOT at strip clubs – potential performers must have ID showing they’re of age.

Again – stop painting men as evil and supporting all your outlandish claims of sex trafficking for going to LEGAL strip clubs. That’s like blaming women for underage workers in pedicure shops.