My Husband Openly Talks About Other Attractive Women To Me

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Mar03

My Husband Openly Talks About Other Attractive Women To Me

08:28 am on Mar 3rd 2008 Evan Marc Katz

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Dear Evan,

I have been married for two years. I am 26 years old and my husband is 12 years older than me. He is very nice to me and always tells me how beautiful I am and how lucky he is to have me. He loves me. He seems to know what to say to me most of the times.

Now, here is the problem… We are both going to separate colleges. The problem is that at the end of the day when he tells me about his daily class events, he goes on and on about this hot, extremely hot, f#$$g hot, sultry looking girl in one of his classes… His friends tell me how “he is married, but not dead” and “there is nothing wrong with noticing other women”!! He also tells me that he can fantasize about his cute 30 years old teacher… I asked him if he ever found me ’sultry’? His response was just plain ‘NO’. He told me that I was beautiful and very sexual, but never sultry.

What is your opinion about this whole mess? I AM a jealous person, but I try to control my jealousy. I try very hard to not show anger, but I really don’t feel loved. I don’t want to tell him that he can’t come talk to me about other females (well, I see other guys too in my school but I don’t go on and on about them when I get home. I desire my husband and no other man)

What do I do? How do I talk to him about this?

Jazz

Dear Jazz,

Your husband’s biggest problem isn’t that he’s a loser who will most certainly cheat on you one of these days (although an argument can certainly be made). No, your husband’s big problem is that he has an extraordinarily big yap which lands him somewhere in that gray area between insensitive and stupid.

I’m going to take this moment to strike a hard line in defense of LYING. Yes, LYING. Because right now, ladies and gentlemen, you are hearing a first-hand account of the devastation wreaked by a man who can’t help but to TELL THE TRUTH. Because, to be perfectly blunt with you, Jazz, his friends are 100% right. He IS married but not dead. There IS nothing wrong with noticing other women. Where your husband comes up incredibly short – as if he were somewhat autistic – in his ability to HIDE his attraction to other women for your sake.

Where your husband comes up incredibly short – as if he were somewhat autistic – in his ability to HIDE his attraction to other women for your sake.

Now, we’ve tackled this before at Advice From A Single Dating Expert. And my sentiments, controversial though they may seem, remain the same. Flirty people flirt. It’s a personality trait, not a choice. Still, there ARE societal boundaries to be maintained, and there are certainly sensitivities that have to be considered. And your husband is failing on every account. Factor in your innate jealousy and your husband going on and on about his f#$$g hot lab partner, well, you’ve got a recipe for disaster on your hands. And it ain’t going away all that soon.

Because what you might be surprised to learn, Jazz, is that your husband probably feels that he just can’t help himself.

Which is why comparing your attraction to other men is irrelevant. Leering is somewhat accepted among men, and, to a degree, even encouraged….

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143 Comments »Filed Under Sex & Relationship Advice

143 Responses to “My Husband Openly Talks About Other Attractive Women To Me”

Steve Mar 3rd 2008 at 09:34 am 1

Jazz;

I agree that your husband is “married, not dead”. It is natural and okay for him to find other women attractive. It is also okay for him to tell you that he thinks a woman is attractive. However, it is NOT OKAY for him to go on and on about it. It is disrespectful of you and inconsiderate of your feelings.

It has nothing to do with being honest or lying . Being honest doesn’t mean telling other people EVERYTHING .

Your husband is being socially clueless.

One of the fastest ways to give a social clueless person a profound understanding in how their behavior effects other people is to do unto them as they do unto you.

For instance, one Sunday while you are sitting around together at home show him a nude beefcake picture you like. Put some emotion into it. Tell him how you REALLY like pretty boy X’s chisled abs. Go on about the shape of his penis and how this model is also RICH.

I guarantee that you will get your husband’s attention and he will also know exactly how you feel when he ogles women in front of you.

You do run the risk of upsetting him, so you might want to handle things in a more mature way by sitting him down and talking to him in a non-threatening but 100% honest way.
sara Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:15 am 2

Ah, yes, this sounds very familiar to me. Except for the age difference and marriage factor. My ex behaved in the same way and even admitted he’s opening his mouth a little too much to me. But he never stopped telling me way too much about the women he saw on the street, in class, etc etc. His excuse was that he was a flirt and that he wasn’t going to change his behavior. I always had the belief — I won’t worry about it until he gives me a reason to worry. It never was a problem, but then it became a problem when he started focusing on one woman in particular who had the same school schedule as him. I had to break up with him over it.

I feel for you and think you should definately tell him how you feel. But in the end, you need to decide what is best for you. If you talk it over and he stands by the “I’m a flirt” opinion……You either stay and accept it or eventually realize that you don’t want to accept it anymore.

Its a tough call. But listen to your instincts.
Steve Mar 3rd 2008 at 11:27 am 3

I appreciate women so much that I am surprised I have never gotten whiplash in my neck. However, when I am a date, out with a girlfriend or out with a girl-friend I do not rubber neck or obsess about other women with them.

It is just a matter of self control and courtesy. It isn’t an innate trait that people can’t help. If someone tells you that it is just who they are they are wrong.
Zann Mar 3rd 2008 at 12:44 pm 4

Very good points have already been made. I would like to add only:
1. Barring autism, he DOES have a choice, because he’s an adult.
2. You are worth any effort it may require of him to comply.
3. It’s unlikely his behavior will change, regardless of what you do.
I’ve been in your shoes several times. As has already been said, you can tolerate it and if/when you decide you don’t want to be tolerant anymore, you show his insensitive ass the door. For me, tolerating it eventually changed my opinion of my man’s integrity and sensitivity. And without that, the relationship is a goner. I hope your situation is different. Regardless, you’ll do the right thing for you.
m Mar 3rd 2008 at 02:11 pm 5

“Put some emotion into it.”

LOL

“It is just a matter of self control and courtesy. It isn’t an innate trait that people can’t help. If someone tells you that it is just who they are they are wrong.”

Steve, when are you giving your “Social Skills for Guys” mandatory behavioral class?
Steve Mar 3rd 2008 at 04:05 pm 6

Steve, when are you giving your “Social Skills for Guys” mandatory behavioral class?

m;

As soon as I finish my OWN remedial lessons. Seriously, most men are not like most women think most men are. Is that clear?

If I sound like I have a drum to beat it is because in the last year I have had to put up with some irritating behavior from several people in my circles. Others have defended these people by saying that they could not change their behavior, that it was “their personality”. I’m not a psychologist but I don’t think that is true. I had some obnoxious behaviors when I was younger. They were fairly ingrained habits. I broke them. It wasn’t easy, but I was inspired, which I think was needed. There are some things that can’t change, but they are dwarfed by the number of habits and behaviors that can be changed.
Li-Ann Mar 3rd 2008 at 04:55 pm 7

My ex (and the operative word here is ex) used to do that. I quickly understood that there was nothing that I could say or do that would stop in. I had to just try to ignore it.

Originally he would say that he’s just being “honest”. The problem is that long term hearing about just how “hot” all these other women are eventually erodes your self confidence.

When you first meet and fall for someone, the first thing that gets you really excited about the relationship is the feeling that he finds you attractive and is thinking about you. If time after time he comes home from work and tells you about the other women he saw that day that are so attractive, it just really kills the mood. Even if it is only natural for him to do so, and even if he says it means nothing, long term it just doesn’t enhance your relationship.

The others have commented about respect. After all, it is not as if you are asking him to actually do anything for you. All he has to do is to tone it down. If he cannot even do that out of respect to you, or just to make you happy, you have to wonder.

Maybe now while you are young and beautiful, this doesn’t hurt as much, since you still feel good about yourself. However, one day you will be older and worried about your appearance. But your man’s tastes won’t change and he’ll still be attracted to the same women. It will be even harder to bear hearing day in and day out about all the hot twenty year olds when you are over 30.

I remember I used to ask myself: “Do I want to be listening to this the rest of my life?”
downtowngal Mar 3rd 2008 at 05:04 pm 8

This reminds me of a recent post on this site about a woman who’s boyfriend had this habit of excessively ogling other women. She ended up talking to him in a direct and calm way, and it worked.

I suggest you use the same approach with your husband. He sounds immature and should know how his actions hurt you. So take the mature approach and call him on it. As I’m sure he loves you, he should respect your feelings.
JerseyGirl Mar 3rd 2008 at 06:58 pm 9

Are men ever loyal? It’s very discouraging. I have had this experience as well with boyfriends and it is very discouraging and frustrating. I know it’s natural to be attracted to other women. I am attracted to other men. But I don’t focus on it or obesses about or even feel the need to share that with him.

If men spent more time giving that kind of attention to their wife or girlfriend and appreciating their beauty in the same way they do with some stranger on the street or some random girl in a movie, you would have many more happy women in return trying to please their man. But men rather give their attention somewhere else. It seems to me that men often have their attention completely mis-directed and the one that suffers for it is the woman, not the man.

This is one of many reasons why it’s very hard to trust men. Every time you got your back turned, or even not, men are already on the prowl for the next new girl to ogle. It’s very discouraging and makes me wonder why men even have relationship.

—————————————————————————–One poster said this:
For me, tolerating it eventually changed my opinion of my man’s integrity and sensitivity.
———————————————————————–

I completely agree with that.
Michele Mar 3rd 2008 at 08:12 pm 10

Jazz, I tend to agree with Evan.

Your husband is exhibiting behavior that is like a psychotic pervert. And how tempted I would be to tell him so. Like shout it from the roof tops until he begs you to stop. That however would serve no useful purpose although very tempting.

Perhaps his sharing far too much information (with you) could be a source for some of your jealousy and I can relate. Others seem to be of the thought that communication is necessary to correct his insensitivity. And an insensitive man can do remarkable harm to a woman.

When the time seems right I would approach him in a most delicate manner and tell him how he’s making you feel. Tell him that you want to have positive feelings about the marriage – and when he speaks of his colleagues (with such praise) it is upsetting. Keep it upbeat even if you want to strangle him with your bare hands. By you showing maturity, he will be held liable.

I was married for a long long time and after the 7 year itch, stopped talking and internalized. Post divorce for almost 10 years, I still tote some ill will and have found that it has prevented me from longer lasting relationships. That said I am aware of it and working on my issues.

To sum it up Jazz – try to resolve (nip them in the bud) whatever problems the two of you have. Try to prepare yourself for a loving kind relationship with him and tell him that’s what you want. Should he continue perversion, your options may be limited.

Good Luck!
Delia Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:18 pm 11

I am a dealer in a casino for lots of years. I have observed and interacted with many many guys over the years and I can tell you that it is the complete dorks that ogle and make comments about women walking by. Cool guys just never do that. They are interested in the game or talking to me. They just woudn’t to stoop to that kind of dialogue or behavior around a woman. Period.
Lynn Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:46 pm 12

One thing I have learned from my lifelong study of men, is that *all* of them are always going to *look.* That seems to be the way they are wired, i.e. from visual cues directly to the penis, so we really can’t blame them for that. However, not all of them talk about it in such a way as to make their partner feel badly. I agree with the rest of the comments that Jazz’s husband ought to work on developing some tact.
Steve Mar 4th 2008 at 06:22 am 13

Delia Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:18 pm 11
I am a dealer in a casino for lots of years. I have observed and interacted with many many guys over the years and I can tell you that it is the complete dorks that ogle and make comments about women walking by. Cool guys just never do that. They are interested in the game or talking to me. They just woudn’t to stoop to that kind of dialogue or behavior around a woman. Period.

Thank you Delia!

For all of the screaming feminists have done about sexism for the past 40 years in my experience women, as a group, can be pretty bad about making generalizations based on sex and they are opaque to the idea that they can be doing it.

People don’t go out of their way to tell everyone about what is working in their lives so it is easy for women to get a skewed view of men by hearing nothing but complaints. The downside of that is that they may truly believe that they have to settle for adolescent behavior because that is the norm. It isn’t.
AT Mar 4th 2008 at 09:08 am 14

My thoughts:
1. The guy is a tactless douchebag.

2. Honesty is NOT the best policy. People use “I was being honest!” as a way to vindicate themselves. People don’t always need or want to know.

3. As Evan said: “while he should be letting off steam to his friends exclusively, he’s including you in on his act – possibly to absolve his guilt.” There are things that people should talk to their friends about and not their spouses. A male acquaintance once told his wife specifically that he’s not one of her girlfriends and she should be speaking to them about particular thinsg.

4. What Steve said in comment #3

5. See #1. I’d draw a big arrow linking #5 here to #1 above if I could.
Steve Mar 4th 2008 at 10:15 am 15

Lynn Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:46 pm 12
That seems to be the way they are wired, i.e. from visual cues directly to the penis

Hi Lynn, no offense, but is that kind of comment really necessary?

If I wrote something like if you really want to find the G-SPOT, look for it in your stock portfolio somebody might tell me that was a sexist and debasing remark. They would be right.

No offense
JerseyGirl Mar 4th 2008 at 10:51 am 16

To Steve:

What exatly was so sexist and debasint about her comment considering it is exactly what alot of the men here said is true anyway? You are acting a little hypocritical because it simply came from a woman.

Ironcially enough as well, you consider her comment to be sexist yet you don’t consider a bunch of men sitting around high fiving each other and checking out other women while having wome nof their own not to be sexist or debasing. News Flash: that isn’t exactly stellar behavior.
lorelei Mar 4th 2008 at 11:09 am 17

Delia said: “I can tell you that it is the complete dorks that ogle and make comments about women walking by. Cool guys just never do that…”

That’s totally right. I spent 2 years tending bar in a Hollywood meat market, and I saw lots of reactions of men to hot women. Confident men kept their composure around beautiful girls, and ignored or didn’t notice them half the time because they paid attention to whatever conversation they were having with present company.
m Mar 4th 2008 at 12:05 pm 18

Steve –

Let’s not all fight.

You seemed angry at me because I tried to give you a compliment.

Now you’re angry at Lynn because she

1) paraphrases something a lot of us have heard men use as an excuse for crass/hurtful behavior (e.g., “It’s just biology *hyuk hyuk*”)

2) paraphrases something that has actually been documented in biophysical texts, albeit in much more technical language (e.g., “parasympathetic transmissions” and “limbic system” and “neurology” and “vagus nerves” or something)??

Come on, give her a break.

Give us a break.

The way I read it, she was really making the same point you made.

It is that guys the only ones “permitted” to comment on male behavior patterns now?

Why are you mad?

P.S. *no offense* *sigh*
Steve Mar 4th 2008 at 03:45 pm 19

m, Lynn;

I’m not mad at either of you.

m; I took your comment as you meant it

Lynn;

I didn’t take offense at what you wrote. I do think it was sexist. I am a man and I don’t like being stereotyped as a creature who is a life support system for a penis. Do men have more of an affinity for being visually stimulated? I think that is likely. Does it matter how things are said? I think so. Does it matter who says it? I believe so.
Selena Mar 4th 2008 at 04:07 pm 20

I wonder if he is doing this deliberately to get a rise out of Jazz. She wrote she was a jealous person who works to control it. I have a hard time believing a 38 yr. old man would ” go on and on about this hot, extremely hot, f#$$g hot, sultry looking girl” to his wife in any kind of innocense. I suspect he knows exactly what he’s doing when he says these things and gets off on it.
hunter Mar 4th 2008 at 05:02 pm 21

to delia,

…”cool guys never do that”….these cool guys are most likely institutionalized(married)….probably have someone better looking at home, or tired of quarreling about whether or not they are allowed to ogle…………..
hunter Mar 4th 2008 at 05:04 pm 22

to delia,

…some men are dogs, but, at the same time, most dogs can be trained….LOL!….
Steve Mar 4th 2008 at 05:31 pm 23

Selena
I wonder if he is doing this deliberately to get a rise out of Jazz. She wrote she was a jealous person who works to control it. I have a hard time believing a 38 yr. old man would ” go on and on about this hot, extremely hot, f#$$g hot, sultry looking girl” to his wife in any kind of innocense. I suspect he knows exactly what he’s doing when he says these things and gets off on it.

Men I have encountered who do that sort of thing usually tend to be immature and/or socially clueless. At least I hope that is the case. I think it would be worse for Jazz if that was calculated, don’t you?
Li-Ann Mar 4th 2008 at 05:33 pm 24

It depends upon the personality of the man whether they’ll react positively to a carefully worded and diplomatic request to tone it down.

If you are dealing with someone who is self-centred or lacks empathy, they often really don’t care about hurting your feelings, so there is no incentive for them to change. A nice guy would of course feel badly about hurting you and take action to improve his conduct.

Of course, I will point out that the VAST MAJORITY of men are not like this and I have spoken with many friends who have glowing reports about their husbands or boyfriends. So it really is possibly to tone down a natural instinct if you want to. I worked as a waitress once too, and I also recall that the really hot cool guys did not leer openly at women.

As for the “I can’t help it”, that is not entirely true. You will probably find that a man who can easily criticize his wife or girlfriend is on the other hand unlikely to tell his boss his tie is ugly, or his wife is fat, under the “just being honest” guise. In that case he would suddenly be able to hold his tongue.

Your husband sounds like a nice guy on other counts, so perhaps it will work for you. I wish you the best.
Steve Mar 4th 2008 at 06:09 pm 25

As for the “I can’t help it”, that is not entirely true. You will probably find that a man who can easily criticize his wife or girlfriend is on the other hand unlikely to tell his boss his tie is ugly, or his wife is fat, under the “just being honest” guise.

My apologies for going off topic, but I just have to tell Li-Ann how insightful that sounds. I think those guys act way with their families because they don’t have guts to face down people out in the world.
Selena Mar 4th 2008 at 06:28 pm 26

Steve,
It’s the on and on and “f#$$g hot” part that makes me think it might be more than basic immaturity/cluelessness. That kind of *overboard* smacks of antagonizing to me. Maybe the guy is insecure or something and wants to make his young wife jealous, who knows?
Delia Mar 4th 2008 at 08:53 pm 27

Lynn Mar 3rd 2008 at 10:46 pm 12
That seems to be the way they are wired, i.e. from visual cues directly to the penis

I feel that if I thought that ALL men acted that way then I really wouldn’t want to have anything to do with any of them! Men that is! I think that a woman who is willing to put up with boorish behavior such as the original letter writer might want to take a look at herself.
Delia Mar 4th 2008 at 09:00 pm 28

to hunter
these cool guys are most likely institutionalized(married)….probably have someone better looking at home, or tired of quarreling about whether or not they are allowed to ogle…………..

NOPE has nothing to do with being married or not married. I’ve entertained all of the above as a Casino Dealer countless times. Some people just have CLASS. And others just DON’T!!!* Sometimes I’ve made a comment to the boors. “Are you saying she’s better looking than me”? And they DO get the point, and they do discontinue the behavior because they can see its just Not Cool!
Delia Mar 4th 2008 at 09:06 pm 29

to hunter

I think you have to be pretty desperate to have to deliberately make comments about women in public places. Once again cool Guys just don’t do it.
Lynn Mar 4th 2008 at 09:34 pm 30

Steve,

My apologies for for offending your sensibilities. I hold men in high regard, and I want to respect the physiological differences between men and women.

Was it the word “penis” that bothered you? Or the fact that a woman actually wrote it?
Mike Mar 4th 2008 at 10:01 pm 31

As I see it, when a man and woman get married, there is no social contact with the opposite sex. None. Zero. Business only and then minimize it. I don’t hold conversations with women, except to return a polite courtesy. Likewise my wife with men. Polite and respectful and that’s it. We also make sure we are not secluded with another man or woman, innocent or not. He has no business looking at other women much less hurting his wifes feelings about it. A little self control, please. Let him look at his wife. Let him tell her how attractive she is. Every day. She won’t mind.
Lance Mar 5th 2008 at 01:36 am 32

Delia, those are terrific comments about the cool guys in the casino. I agree with that. All straight men look and fantasize about other women, or at least the guys with a reasonable sex drive, which ought to be most of us. Doesn’t matter if you’re happily married or the worse perv in the world. If you’re secure, cool, experienced, classy, etc then you can EASILY control your primal urges and not get demonstrative, esp. to your wife.

This chick’s husband is 38 and she’s 26. Also, is he still an undergrad in college? They go to separate colleges? Umm, hello, red flag. How about transferring? You’re married, fuckwad. WTF?? I’m all about getting a college degree, but the guy is a complete douchebag and she’s naive. He’s almost certainly skeezing around at the other campus, although he’s probably such a utter chode that he can’t close with other women, thus he can’t actually commit adultery. Yuck.

@EMK: your line: (monogamy being a choice, but not a natural state). I love it. You’re stuff just keeps getting edgier.
Steve Mar 5th 2008 at 06:18 am 33

Mike Mar 4th 2008 at 10:01 pm 31
As I see it, when a man and woman get married, there is no social contact with the opposite sex. None. Zero. Business only and then minimize it.

Married people can’t have friends of the opposite sex?
JerseyGirl Mar 5th 2008 at 06:36 am 34

Geez Mike, you wouldn’t have a single brother would you?
Lance Mar 5th 2008 at 10:07 am 35

@Mike: That’s ridiculous. If you’re married and a socialite, you’re going to have to talk to women, and a lot. Same thing if you’re in any position of leadership. Also, isolating yourself from other women? Please. Get out of the house every once and a while and realize that it’s okay to talk to the opposite sex. It’s hardly disrespectful, and they aren’t temptresses. It’s also perfectly okay to talk ABOUT sex with women, just know the bounds.

The issue isn’t avoiding temptation, but rather having the security and coolness to be around the opposite sex, esp. fairer examples of them, and be easily and unconsciously able to control your longings. And you MUST have longings and fantasies, because it’s a part of your masculinity; a man who doesn’t admit to attraction is the man I fear for being a pervert and sex offender. If you admit to attraction and surround yourself by it, celebrate it, and ultimately control it, then you’ve mastered your masculinity.

Jazz’s hubby admits to the attraction, but he’s going way overboard and being boorish and vulgar.. There’s a power and respect issue there also, my guess caused by the age and experience difference.
JuJu Mar 5th 2008 at 10:40 am 36

Both my best friends are male.

It would be unacceptable if my mate decided he can tell me with whom I can be friends.
AT Mar 5th 2008 at 12:45 pm 37

What Mike says (comment #31) bothers me but I realize that it’s a divisive issue and a personal one. Some people hold that attitude and sometimes a cultural or religious issue.

Personally, I think it’s healthy to have an opposite sex best friend (along with same sex ones), one that the spouse gets along with. Close opposite sex friends are like siblings. It’s not a sexual thing. Respecting the boundaries of friendship and marriage is something that all parties (friends and spouses) are accountable for. It’s implied in the vows of marriage and implied in the concept of friendship.

I couldn’t marry anyone who disapproved of me having opposite sex friends. This is non-negotiable. I would think that any man who voiced such disapproval was insecure and controlling with trust issues and even if that wasn’t the case, it would indicate a belief system unlike my own. As well, I would find it strange if the man I married didn’t have close friends of the opposite sex. For one thing, it would make me wonder about his ability to interact and connect with women. I might wonder why women didn’t want to be friends with him.

There is so much to be learned from friends of the opposite sex. Guy friends help me develop my relationship skills. They help me translate guy-speak and behavior. They tell me what I’m doing wrong when I’m dating. They validate when a guy that I’m dating is being a dick and tell me when the guy isn’t being a dick but I’m misinterpreting. It’s great.

I want to directly state that this is NOT a judgment on Mike. I am not telling him that he is wrong. These comments reflect my personal opinion and as long as he and his wife share the same views on the matter, I don’t see a problem with it within the context of their marriage.

Sorry for the long comment. This time I had something of substance to say.
AT Mar 5th 2008 at 12:56 pm 38

Also – I like Lance’s comment from this morning. I missed it before posting mine because I had this page open for hours with an unfinished comment while I went about my work day.
(Is it 5:00 Eastern time yet?)
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 02:53 pm 39

Steve,
There are billions of men for men to choose friends from, billions of women for women to choose friends from. So no shortage of friends for you to make.

Ju Ju,
Marriage means not only loyalty, but never giving your partner even a reason to suspect. There are many reasons for this.
1. Any marriage has its ups and downs. If you are during a down, even “friendly” contact with the opposite sex is going to hurt your spouse.
2. JuJu, marriage, by definition, is an exclusive relationship. For women, emotional relationships, even talking, really any form of attention from a man, is like sex, only to a lesser degree. So maintaining your attention from other men is disloyal to your husband. If you want to have your male friends, don’t marry.

AT:
Marriage is hard enough without adding opposite sex best friends into the mix. Keep things simple. That’s what is really healthy. That’s what really works. Modern ideas about marriage have a terrible track record…

Lance:
You bring up many points which I will try to address later. I don’t doubt that my ideas seem strange to you. But they would seem strange to your grandparents or even most people in the world today. Marriage is not a new thing and what I’m saying is not at all new. Your ideas are more modern and it seems to me that they have a poor track record.
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 02:54 pm 40

Lance,
Correction “They would not seem strange to your grandparents etc”
trouble Mar 5th 2008 at 03:11 pm 41

I work in a male-dominated field. I often have to travel with the men I work with, and so we will have dinner/drinks. It would be a lonely life if I were in a relationship with someone who prohibited me from having social contact with co-workers just because they happen to have penises.

I find this topic interesting because I also had an ex who did this. I have since concluded that it was as subtle way of demeaning me. I think he did it to put me slightly off-balance at all times. I wonder if this is passive-aggressive behavior or just cluelessness on the part of Jazz’s husband.

I don’t think it’s possible to be sure from the information provided.
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 04:18 pm 42

to Mike & Steve,
Concerning married people having friends. I think that whatever works for Mike is great. I also think that that doesn’t work for everyone. Some people can have a great marriage or relationship and still have friends that are just friends. And the spouse can be just fine with that. It might depend on how independant and confident the spouse happens to be. I’m a skiier and have been friends with a certain couple and I’d say I’m friends with both of them equally and separately. But they are unique people. And everybodys different! I’ve all kinds and levels of friendships skiing and in my life.
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 04:22 pm 43

Lance
I think it definately depends on what is going on at the time. I’m a casino dealer so there is a game going on and often (on my game anyway) interesting conversations going on plus comedy and laughing going on. So unless the guy is Hellbent on skoping women out he wouldn’t have a chance on my game. Because there are interesting things going on on the table.
Also there are some guys who just want to gamble and don’t want to talk at all, and they certainly aren’t looking around at any babes. They are hellbent on gambling.
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 04:35 pm 44

With regards to the topic of spouses and friends There is a book called Quirkyalone: A Manifesto for Uncompromising Romantics…
by Sasha Cagen – 2004 – 185 pages
… and it is about (a certain segment of our society)& they are people who are Creative Independant & Romantic to the point that they will not settle for a rltp just to be in one. They can be single OR married and either way they are happy and independent and do not allow marriage or their spouse to define themselves. They are their own person. Its a very interesting book. And I would have to classify myself as that type of person. Two good examples of Quirkyalones would be: Steve Martin and also Oprah Winfrey. To me its a very healthy way to be. I also think that other ways of being are very healthy as well. Everything isn’t for everybody.
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 05:59 pm 45

Lance:
“@Mike: That’s ridiculous. If you’re married and a socialite, you’re going to have to talk to women, and a lot. Same thing if you’re in any position of leadership. Also, isolating yourself from other women? Please. Get out of the house every once and a while and realize that it’s okay to talk to the opposite sex. It’s hardly disrespectful, and they aren’t temptresses. It’s also perfectly okay to talk ABOUT sex with women, just know the bounds. ”

Not ridiculous at all. Just different than what you are used to.

“The issue isn’t avoiding temptation, but rather having the security and coolness to be around the opposite sex, esp. fairer examples of them, and be easily and unconsciously able to control your longings. ”

I am around the opposite sex. My lovely wife and my daughters. Its very cool and I feel very secure. And the best thing is, that with my wife, I don’t have to control my longings, I fulfill them.

“And you MUST have longings and fantasies, because it’s a part of your masculinity; a man who doesn’t admit to attraction is the man I fear for being a pervert and sex offender. ”
Pervert? Sex offender? Huh? Like I said, my longings are fulfilled.

“If you admit to attraction and surround yourself by it, celebrate it, and ultimately control it, then you’ve mastered your masculinity. ”

I am attracted, to my wife. I admit it. I even celebrate it. Regarding other women, I don’t ask for trouble. Why should I. Everything in its proper time and place.

“Jazz’s hubby admits to the attraction, but he’s going way overboard and being boorish and vulgar.. There’s a power and respect issue there also, my guess caused by the age and experience difference.”

Lance, we both agree that there is a line not to cross, we just differ as to where that line is.
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 06:01 pm 46

Delia,
I just think your heading down a slippery slope on that one.
Lance Mar 5th 2008 at 06:37 pm 47

@Mike: Well, you make a disarming rebuttal, although I still completely disagree. Nothing personal. I think women are beautiful and I couldn’t imagine any relationship type where I didn’t hang out and interact with them extensively…this does not include my wife and kids (although I’m not married). Also, women aren’t “trouble.” Well, they are, but not in the context we’re talking about. I find even a suggestion of isolating oneself from the opposite sex to be emasculating.

From your previous comment re: marriage. Marriage is a flawed institution and is in need of a major modernization. I’m not going to wax poetic about that here, but suffice it to say that the VAST MAJORITY of marrieds hang out with members of the opposite sex, and on a more than polite level.
Steve Mar 5th 2008 at 06:43 pm 48

Hey Mike;

I think this might sound like a sarcastic question so let me ask you to take it at face value. Given that you try to make your marriage the sole source for satisfying your social needs, why are you reading a dating experts blog?
Justy Mar 5th 2008 at 06:54 pm 49

So, Mike,
Happily married, totally fulfilled, celebrating the attraction, lovely daughters… what are you doing on a singles dating site?
You wouldn’t, perchance, be looking to make some ‘virtual’ friends of the opposite sex, would you?
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 07:39 pm 50

“And you MUST have longings and fantasies, because it’s a part of your masculinity; a man who doesn’t admit to attraction is the man I fear for being a pervert and sex offender. ”
Pervert? Sex offender? Huh? Like I said, my longings are fulfilled.

As a {woman, chick, girl or gal} I certainly do not for one second believe that every or even most men I speak with on a daily basis are having longings and fantasies about me. OR that this IS WHAT proves their masculinity. Being a man can be so many things for example: sticking with wife and family and fulfilling his roles in that way. There are a myriad of ways to define oneself as a man or as a woman besides sexually. Just ask Pope John Paul II. He was an actor a skiier a cyclist and was even engaged to be married before entering the priesthood.
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 07:41 pm 51

Mike,
No You would be heading down a slippery slope with that one.
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 07:43 pm 52

My last two comments were to Mike
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 08:31 pm 53

Steve,
I have men friends. And we have couples / families we see together, occastionally. Besides, I don’t have much time for a social life anyway.

Justy,
No. I found this by googling an article in Atlantic Monthly about settling for Mr. Good Enough. The article is creating a bit of a stir and I heard of it. I am always observing the society around me and have a keen interest in seeing feminism die, since I feel it does terrible things to people. I care about what’s going on. I want people to get it right. I’m sick of all the nonsense I see and hear around me. I also believe people just accept it becuase its not being challanged. So I am challanging it. Call me Don Quixote.

Also, I love a good debate. And I love to teach.

I actually like this site because people listen when they aren’t settled about somthing that matters to them. Singles on this site seem to be unsettled and grappling with these important issues and therefore in a position to appreciate what I have to say.

But you have a sharp eye. I invite you to watch my posts and see that nothing ever gets personal.
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 08:35 pm 54

Steve and Justy,
Not interested in any more women, one is definately enough, sometimes, too much.
Mike Mar 5th 2008 at 08:43 pm 55

Steve and Justy,
Actually you make a good point. I can’t expect anyone to understand my motives, so, this is my last post. Have a good life.
Evan Marc Katz Mar 5th 2008 at 09:12 pm 56

NOW look what you’ve done. You’ve run Mike off, just like you did Verbosity.

And regardless of whether I agree with a poster (I happen to think Verbosity is quite logical, if a bit one note), I want this to be a place where everyone’s opinion is respected. The truth generally lies between the two extremes, and just because there are more women reading this than men doesn’t mean that the men don’t have something valuable to offer – even if it disagrees with you. ESPECIALLY if it disagrees with you.

So, please, let’s try to continue to agree to disagree without all the personal attacks, okay? Married men can read this. Men who see a uniquely male point of view can read this. And if they rub you the wrong way, just present your facts and stay away from the accusations and name-calling.

I’m proud of this blog and I don’t want it to devolve the way so many other blogs/forums/message boards do.

You’re too good for that.

Thanks for staying involved and keeping the place clean.

The Moderator
JuJu Mar 5th 2008 at 09:22 pm 57

Well… I am all for respecting the differences, but that was some scary sh*t!
hunter Mar 5th 2008 at 10:09 pm 58

to justy,

Scary? Really?,,,I must have missed it…
hunter Mar 5th 2008 at 10:14 pm 59

To Delia,

Pope John Paul? Are you sure you want to compare him to the average man?……
hunter Mar 5th 2008 at 10:18 pm 60

To delia,

You are a dealer in a casino, and you think you are not in the average man’s fantasies?..The dealers I have seen are very attractive, if not, stunning, drop dead gorgeous…I have news for you…..LOL!
Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 10:22 pm 61

JuJu
YOU ARE FUNNY!!!
JuJu Mar 5th 2008 at 11:16 pm 62

Delia, allow me to refresh your memory:

JuJu, marriage, by definition, is an exclusive relationship. For women, emotional relationships, even talking, really any form of attention from a man, is like sex, only to a lesser degree. So maintaining your attention from other men is disloyal to your husband.
Steve Mar 6th 2008 at 05:35 am 63

About “Mr. Goodbar” courtesy of the Internet Movie Database:
http://tinyurl.com/ynlr4b
1977 Starring Diane Keaton

Theresa is a successful teacher of deaf children during the day but after a short unhappy affair starts to spend her nights cruising bars. Her craving first for sex but later also for drugs leads into increasingly demeaning and dangerous situations completely at odds with her daytime commitment to her children.

Sorry for going off topic, again, but sometimes I get curious for no reason and can’t leave things alone
JuJu Mar 6th 2008 at 07:21 am 64

And oh… he l i k e s t o t e a c h ??
Michele Mar 6th 2008 at 07:36 am 65

Evan,

Am in complete agreement that it was getting out of hand….some message boards are simply products of sitting behind a computer screen — to rant about whatever might be troubling one at the moment….and doing so anonymously.

My #10 reply was directed to the original concerns of Jazz and I might add from my heart.

Then Mr. Mike comes on the scene and quite frankly I can see why he was annoying others, although there was no need to feed into his sneering (that he sites as “debate).” Seems like all focus on the subject matter was lost.

That said, I really do love ya, Evan !!!!!!!
Selena Mar 6th 2008 at 08:49 am 66

Hmm–someone who thinks talking, any attention, is like sex, has a keen interest in seeing feminism die, likes to teach. Yeah, a little scary.
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 09:56 am 67

JuJu
I’m sorry. I think you might have misunderstood me. I was Agreeing with you & Appreciating your comment by saying you are Funny. I love Funny.
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 10:00 am 68

Hunter
I might want the average man to Aspire to Pope John. Why not? We all can use great role models!
Also, what I meant was that as a dealer I have so many funny and interesting topics going on on my game with everyone that I’m not thinking that every guy is sexually interested. We’re just all having fun! Is a Womans only interest to you her looks and sex appeal?
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 10:07 am 69

Hunter
Getting back a little closer to the original issue: Women can be guilty of the same or similar offense. For instance; In relationships I”m sure I’ve had times where I might have talked a little more than I should have about another guy. Definately not raving about them but maybe just talking about them and my partner thinking Oh She Likes That Guy. We’re all in this world learning together I guess from our mistakes.
JuJu Mar 6th 2008 at 10:45 am 70

I wasn’t in the least offended, Delia. (-:
Just sorta felt like voicing the “good riddance” sentiment.

BTW, a job like yours would be unfathomable in this man’s value system. Flirtatious conversations, to think!

Hee-hee.
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 11:19 am 71

Hunter
I noticed in my email to you that my comment ‘Is a Womans only interest to you her looks and sex appeal?’ had a challenging and accusing tone to it. It occurs to me that I often am lacking in communication skills. I still seem to need to learn to communicat without implying blame therefore I think I probably would have gotten my point across to you without that parting question. Sorry.
JerseyGirl Mar 6th 2008 at 01:26 pm 72

Evan:
You’re too good for that.

Thanks for staying involved and keeping the place clean.

—————————————————————————

Watching too much Stuwart Smalley are we.
hunter Mar 6th 2008 at 04:38 pm 73

to Delia,

“Is a womans only interest to me, her looks and sex appeal? In reference to casino, dealers? If, I said no, to that question, I would be lying to you…..
hunter Mar 6th 2008 at 04:48 pm 74

to Delia,

No offense taken…
hunter Mar 6th 2008 at 04:51 pm 75

to delia,

Pope as a role model?…really? Doesn’t, like he, operate on a different plane?…
hunter Mar 6th 2008 at 05:26 pm 76

to delia,

You said, “sometimes I’ve made a comment to the boors. Are you saying, she’s better looking than me? And they do get the point and they discontinue the behaviour, because they can see its just not cool!”

Of course men will behave, when you are dealing cards! They do want to make some money!….LOL!
hunter Mar 6th 2008 at 05:35 pm 77

to Delia,

Seriously, this doesn’t happen often, but it has happened. I have not paid attention to sexy women walking past me. Only to get a comment like, “Who do you think you are, God?” Or find me a response to this one, “All men look at me.”
I had just gotten laid so I didn’t care at the time, and said nothing.
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 08:50 pm 78

to Hunter
“Is a womans only interest to me, her looks and sex appeal? In reference to casino, dealers? If, I said no, to that question, I would be lying to you…..

Ha! that’s cute. Well at least you’re Honest!
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 08:52 pm 79

to Hunter
>

Well Yes BUT You know, you could say that he operated on a higher plane and in that case he really is someone to look up to. But not so much in the Dating sense, since we are on a Dating site.
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 08:54 pm 80

Hunter
>

Ha. YES, they KNOW what side their breads buttered ON!!
Lynn Mar 6th 2008 at 08:56 pm 81

Thanks, Evan!
Delia Mar 6th 2008 at 08:56 pm 82

to Hunter

>

Sometimes you just can’t Win!
hunter Mar 7th 2008 at 05:26 pm 83

to Delia,

I wonder if women look up to, oh, say, the queen of England as a role model.

Interestingly enough, DNA research and studies show that leaders and famous people, have an “extraordinary” type of DNA, found only amongst their type.
Delia Mar 7th 2008 at 10:35 pm 84

to Hunter
I wonder if women look up to, oh, say, the queen of England as a role model.

Interestingly enough, DNA research and studies show that leaders and famous people, have an “extraordinary” type of DNA, found only amongst their type.

I look up to –queen of England– types myself to a certain extent. I’m pretty sure I’d be in the minority on that. The DNA research sounds fascinating.
ashlee Mar 8th 2008 at 07:55 am 85

My ex would talk about other hot women in front of me. He liked to see me jealous said it made him feel loved. He actually enjoyed seeing me upset.
I think this guy knows exactly what he is doing, he wants to see his wife upset and jealous. Also, he may just want to see her work extra hard at getting his attention. It’s sadistic and demeaning behavior. I would have to disagree that he is that stupid or insensitive, at his age he has been with enough women to know what will happen when you say those things around a woman.
hunter Mar 8th 2008 at 05:17 pm 86

to delia,

DNA research shows, that, there is very good possibility that, General George Patton, maybe a descendent of, one of the two American Civil War leaders, I, don’t remember, it was either, Robert E. Lee, or Ulysses Grant.
hunter Mar 8th 2008 at 05:22 pm 87

to Delia,

So, back to our original statment, can you imagine the popes’ DNA lineage?
Delia Mar 8th 2008 at 11:41 pm 88

to Hunter,
The Pope (John Paul – he’s deceased) must have had quite the lineage, having been an actor cyclist skiier etc., etc., I’m all those things plus an artist writer singer & comedian of sorts. My challenge is I have trouble focusing exclusively on any one of the last 4. If I could pick just one & really develop it I’m sure I’d have much more of a chance of succeeding in one of them. But now I’m getting way off the topic! Apologies all around!!ha.
hunter Mar 9th 2008 at 01:11 pm 89

to Delia,

Doing what we really want to do is a commitment of sorts, and it takes effort and discipline, that leaves little room for the “I’ll do it tomorrow,” thoughts and phrases. My job involves a certain amount of coordination of work crews and synchronicity of mechanical systems, and I have always liked it, thank you very much.
Delia Mar 9th 2008 at 10:13 pm 90

to Hunter
WHAT!!? You wouldn’t prefer to be Paralzyed by too many options like me??
hunter Mar 10th 2008 at 05:22 pm 91

to Delia,

LOL! Of course not!….LOL!
Delia Mar 10th 2008 at 10:52 pm 92

Did I make you laugh? hope so. I really think that I enjoy making people laugh more than just about anything else. I think that’s why I don’t wear any make-up on my face. I’d Much rather be told I am funny than that I am pretty. I came to this point from my life of experiences. It takes brains to be funny. And it feels Great!
Jen Mar 27th 2008 at 10:25 am 93

My man comments on other women daily, the real ones and the fake (TV, movies). I have tried to ignore it but have not been successful.
He says it means nothing. OK, fine. BUT….

We met about 8 months ago. During this time I have been called Tracy, Tracy, Tracy repeatedly (the one he never got over). I told him it bothered me, and eventually he controlled himself. OK, fine. During this time he has made it clear that I am not his usual physical type and he is specific. OK, fine. During this time I have listened to him while watching movies- “she is so hot, wow she is really beautiful,
look at her a..,” etc. I am very familiar with his type by now and it ain’t me.

We have talked. I came clean, even though I felt like a jealous idiot, and told him he makes me feel like the hag on his arm. He reassures me he is not going anywhere. Well, that’s just great, but meanwhile the last thing I want to do is get naked with him and our sex life has gone to hell.

It would be nice to feel that I am attractive to him also, and maybe I could more easily deal with the running commentary. It is ruining our relationship and I am feeling like a thin-skinned jerk.

Appreciate the opportunity to rant.
Thanks
Li-Ann Mar 27th 2008 at 12:21 pm 94

That is it exactly “…makes me feel like a hag on my arm”. My experience with my ex pretty well matches the well worded last post.

The person who deals out the criticism may try to say it means nothing, they still love you, they’re just joking, you are taking it too seriously, etc. etc. But it destroys feelings and that is key. How are you supposed to feel excited as a woman to be intimate if you know your guy prefers other women’s bodies? Most women already feel bad enough about their bodies even before a man comes along to reinforce that feeling. Very few have the perfect body.

I was just sick and tired of the running commentary, most of it pretty well implying that I don’t fit the bill of what he thinks is attractive. It just kills any kind of romance and feelings.

If the guy loves you and wants a good relationship, he should either keep it quiet, or just move on and be with the women he does find attractive.

I know he will say it is just natural to look or whatever, but surely it is possible if you care about another person’s feeling to be less obvious about it. My guy was about 60 pounds overweight and I never said a word about other guy’s abs even though I do in fact notice. I just didn’t want to hurt him. Same goes with the rapidly receding hairline and the double chin.

That being said, I should have known better. I think when you fall in love you try so hard to overlook things. On my second date he said “you would look so much better if you lost just 5 pounds”. I felt hurt right then, but I ignored the future implications.

So I ended up getting into a marriage where for years I heard nothing but that running commentary about other beautiful women. Did he really think the exercise bike was going to transform me into a top model? He would defend himself that he’s motivating me, but a lot is genetics. Even when I got down to 105 lbs I was still not a super model.

So start thinking about the years you will be married. A running commentary about other women and/or your inadequacies can simply bring down your mood and your day. Why would anyone surround themselves with toxic people? Just to be able to say you are married?

It might not seem like a big deal to you in the early days of your relationship, but it gets old really fast. There is enough to worry about in life in general, and in relationships, without adding constant criticism to your day. The theory about relationships the way I see it is that they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Simple.

So many men (and women too) feel that they are owed a super hot spouse, and with society’s stress on youth and looks, this gets worse every year.

When he’d leave on a business trip for a few weeks, I would suddenly feel like a big weight had fallen from my shoulders. Without his comments, my day felt better, I felt happier, and the world felt better. Every woman/man wants to be made to feel special by the person they want. What is the point of being with them if they make you feel like they’re doing you a big favour to be with you and they could do better.

Sorry to ramble. Good luck to you all with your search for just the right person.
JuJu Mar 27th 2008 at 01:19 pm 95

Let me get this straight: the 60 lb. overweight guy tried for years to “motivate” you to lose five pounds?
Li-Ann Mar 27th 2008 at 01:48 pm 96

Yes, wasn’t I stupid?

Saturdays the first thing he’d say is I should go running. If I didn’t he’d tell me I’m lazy. Then there’d be an argument. He’d freak out and say I’m ruining our sex life since he only likes women on the lean side. He’d get into a state and start complaining that this is so unfair to him – he deserves the best. The whole conversation could get ugly, even if I stayed silent, or even if I agreed with him to try to calm him. Great way to spend my weekend.

As for his weight, he felt that women like big husky guys. He said he doesn’t have to look good and that the onus was on women to look good and then he’d point out examples out there of what I should model myself on. He’d say that’s just the way society is and there’s nothing he can do about it.

He claimed he got lots of interest from women because he said there are more women looking for a guy for a long term relationship than the other way around. He was well aware that women were often prepared to settle.

Sometimes when he pushed too far I’d say “do you really think that there is some model out there who’d want to clean up after you day or night?” (he did no housework). To that he’d say that if he does get a good looking thin woman in the future – he’ll pay for a maid.
Jen Mar 27th 2008 at 01:51 pm 97

“What is the point of being with them if they make you feel like they’re doing you a big favour to be with you and they could do better.”

That is it exactly for me. I’m about to go home to mine. I still look forward to seeing him after a booooring day at work but the good and the bad are 50/50 right now.

I am 48, tall, slender, pale, and attractive. But if you are looking for younger, petite, voluptuous (big butt), dark and beautiful….uh oh!
See what I mean? Lose that 5 pounds, hah! I need to become addicted to plastic surgery (I do dye my hair to cover the gray).

I enjoy the rambling.

Thank you
Delia Mar 27th 2008 at 08:35 pm 98

Li-Ann, The following from you, I am NOT KIDDING, THAT IS SOME FUNNY STUFF!!** someday out there outta make a sit com out of it. ITS HILARIOUS. You should become a sit-com comedy writer!!

>
Delia Mar 27th 2008 at 08:39 pm 99

Li-Ann,
>
Your above statement reminds me of gamblers in the casino that I deal cards to. They’ll say the same drivel over and over and over again, “When are you gonna give me good cards?” “When are you gonna be nice to me?” “You’re killin me here!” AS IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CARDS. THEN if i make a comment they’ll say ohdon’t take it seriously. I’m just joking. I think:”RIGHT! -You’re just joking well why am I not laughing?” Thank god not all players are like that. BUT definately too many of them are!!
Delia Mar 27th 2008 at 08:41 pm 100

Li-Ann,
>>

Your above statement reminds me of gamblers in the casino that I deal cards to. They’ll say the same drivel over and over and over again, “When are you gonna give me good cards?” “When are you gonna be nice to me?” “You’re killin me here!” AS IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CARDS. THEN if i make a comment they’ll say ohdon’t take it seriously. I’m just joking. I think:”RIGHT! -You’re just joking well why am I not laughing?” Thank god not all players are like that. BUT definately too many of them are!!
Delia Mar 27th 2008 at 08:44 pm 101

Li-Ann,
I was referring to the paragraph that begins with Saturdays..
Its just TOO funny!!*
lou Mar 27th 2008 at 11:33 pm 102

the miracle here, li-ann, is that you haven’t sworn off men completely after being with a childish, insecure, controlling man like your ex.
Jen Mar 28th 2008 at 08:21 am 103

Li-Ann:
“Same goes with the rapidly receding hairline and the double chin.”
I love this!! tee,hee

I think we should just zing them with this stuff and to hell with their feelings.
Li-Ann Mar 28th 2008 at 02:24 pm 104

Sit com? I do have some funny ones. You do have to keep your sense of humour. For example, he loved to look at himself in the mirror, while I avoided the mirror. He would pat his big gut, suck it in a bit, turn to the side and say “pretty good for my age” (38), and then sort of admire himself a bit. Then he’d point out some baseball players are on the fat side or rap stars. He also loved to detail all the times he supposedly caught young attractive women checking him out during the day. This was apparently supposed to motivate me for something or another.

Although, to his credit, you are better off loving yourself as he does, as men with high self esteem can come off well with women, even if they are not all they think they are.

Lou – of course I won’t swear off men! He only represents one person, and I know some men do some of the things he does, but he was pretty extreme. I know there are still some great guys out there. Too bad they’re all already seeing someone! Now if only I can lose that last 5 lbs. Must go jogging. NOT.

When I’d tell him that not all guys are like him he’d say that they are secretly thinking just what he is thinking (in terms of women’s weight and looks) it is just that they didn’t have the COURAGE and HONESTY he had to tell me up front. Thank you, I do so appreciate it!

One time I had to laugh because we were at a beach with some friends and one had a cute 20 something daughter. He pulled off his shirt to tan, and she began to giggle, and he said “What are you laughing about?” and she said “a bit too much information for me” eying his somewhat overhanging mid section. So much for all the women after him.
JerseyGirl Mar 31st 2008 at 08:04 pm 105

Sorry about your experieince Li-Ann. Geez. As a girl in my 20s me and my friends certainly aren’t checking out over weight middle aged men.

Actually, they do say men usually consider themselves more attractive then they really are and women consider themselves less attractive then they really are. They did a study that asked men and women if they thought they needed to loose weight. Alot of the guys who were over-weight said they felt that they didn’t and alot of women that were not over-weight said that they felt that they did. Goes to show are messed world we sometimes livei n and how women get messed with in society. You would hope men would be more sensitive and caring towards us.
JuJu Apr 3rd 2008 at 04:41 am 106

Li-Ann,

the problem is that you allowed this treatment. (Do NOT beat up yourself over this, just accept that it happened, and move on.)

Ah, too bad Verbosity is no longer here. Perhaps now he would have appreciated the quote I posted in another thread: “The moment you settle [for a 60lb. overweight guy], you get even less than then you settled for [like a 60lb. overweight guy who systematically destroys your self-esteem].”
Delia Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:17 pm 107

> to JuJu, I could not agree with you MORE!!
to Li-Ann, Yes Li-Ann I agree with JuJu that the problem is that you allowed this treatment. I’ve been guilty of allowing things I should not have as well! It is now OUR job to ACCEPT what we have been and/or allowed by saying I completely accept what I have allowed and its allright. By accepting this puts us in a whole other universe. We no longer have to justify ourselves. We can now move on to healthier behavior!!! HURRAY for US!!*
Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 12:26 pm 108

You are both right! I did allow it, and I always recognized that other women were able to command much more respect from their husbands, and it didn’t matter how they looked. I have yet to figure out why I couldn’t master a way to get him to stop. I guess something is wrong with me in that way.

As with the original poster, the comments from the man on other women (and so on) seem to just pop out of their mouths. I could not control what he said, and he refused to stop making his observations about other women or myself. I would tell him I didn’t like it and so on, but nothing would ever make him stop. In fact, if I protested too much, he’d threaten divorce, and tell me that his next wife will be naturally thin, and he’s going to make sure that she’s not the type to put on weight. Then he’d walk out and go once again to a strip bar.

The only thing that would have worked would be to leave him and I didn’t have the guts to do that permanently in the early years. My stupid reason was that there is no one else out there, the whole dating thing is too difficult (which is why I read all these posts).
Jen Apr 7th 2008 at 06:47 am 109

I’m sure this sounds naive of me, but I think these men are VERY insecure.

Just endured an unexpected visit from a former co-worker of my husband’s and her boyfriend. We are 48 and 60. They are under 30. The drool coming out of my man’s goofily smiling lips was a sight to see. My dog did not like her.

I have reached the point where I no longer feel the icepick through my heart and am now kind of numb to it. His attitude is basically don’t get hysterical, Jen, I’m here. I did not, repeat not, get hysterical. I kept my mouth shut all day and finally told him, for the umpteenth time, that he is an asshole! I know, says he.

I feel sorry for him, I don’t want to get old either, but I don’t think I can deal with his insecurity about it. Then again, he has probably always been like this- HUGE ego. Last night he regaled me with his online dating adventures. I didn’t ask. I don’t have to. He loves to talk about himself. Met some very interesting women. Good for you!!

I read a quote by Maya Angelou reminding women to “listen to what your man is saying….”

Mine is sure not saying he wants me.

Oh, well. My dog is really going to miss him.

I too love reading these posts. Helps.
Jen Apr 7th 2008 at 09:17 am 110

“When people tell you who they are, listen to them the first time.”
Maya Angelou

I re-interpreted it, as usual. Mine has been telling me who he is from the start.

I feel I need to make a serious decision, otherwise I am just picking on him.

Maya Angelou also said (close enough)- change what you don’t like or change your attitude. Don’t think I can change my attitude.
JerseyGirl Apr 7th 2008 at 10:48 am 111

This is why I don’t understand in many ways why men even want relationships. They clearly don’t value women after a certain age, or they will always value a woman based on her age over even his own SO.
Li-Ann Apr 7th 2008 at 12:53 pm 112

Jen,

I am a walking advertisement why it is better to do it sooner than later. One incident really got me thinking. One day I was complaining about him to my best friend. She looked at me and said “I don’t mean to offend you, but when are you going to do something about it? I have a funny feeling that 5 years from now we are going to be having this exact same conversation. Is that where you want to be?”

She made a great point. That being said, it was so much easier said than done, at least for me. Also, don’t forget that the first time you leave him, they will frequently apologize and promise to shape up. I got this a few times. It never lasts. A lot of it is in their personality/psychology. And I am not bashing on men, as there are women who have this personality type as well. I got a Merck’s manual and looked up narcissism. Perfect description of what I was dealing with. Little hope of an improvement, as most are not motivated to change.
Jen Apr 8th 2008 at 11:27 am 113

Li-Ann:

Very interesting and thought provoking comment.

I am repeating myself over and over. He has apologized several times. Nothing changes. I feel like crap and am getting very depressed.

I have been unable to talk to him about much of anything lately. If I open my mouth I’m afraid of what will come out.

I just don’t know what to say to him. I feel like I can’t say anything until I make up my mind, otherwise I am just complaining over and over. Meanwhile very uncomfortable with him. Very sad!
Eda Apr 8th 2008 at 03:23 pm 114

I think that at the end of the day, the most important thing is to like yourself and your body. I think sometimes we like to blame men for feeling bad about our bodies when the real problem is how we feel about our bodies. I say this because when I was with my SO, I ranged in weight from 120 to 220 lbs over a 17 year period. He never, ever said anything mean or nasty about my body…never overtly or covertly tried to encourage me to lose weight. In fact, he genuinely liked me and my body regardless of my size. I, however, HATED my body when I weighed 220, and no matter what he told me, I just did not feel attractive or sexy. Frankly, because I hated my body so much, I just couldn’t understand why he liked it. Now, I’m sure I would have felt 100 times worse if my boyfriend had been critical, but he wasn’t and I still felt miserable about myself. I didn’t feel better until I lost weight. Now, I like my body — I am by no means skinny, but I know which clothes to wear to flatter my figure and I feel good about my appearance most of the time.

So, I think the only way to really be happy is to first and foremost like yourself and your body and then find a man that likes you and your body too!
Jen Apr 9th 2008 at 07:46 am 115

I totally agree that we need to like ourselves. Wow just had a brain fart. Funny how I always end up with the same kind of man, just in a different shape and size, and age. And that man never seems to really like me. They always want someone different.

So I need to find the man that wants me as I am. Problem is I will probably never be attracted to him.

These things are always 50/50, not entirely one person’s fault. The abuser/criticizer needs someone to criticize. I love to play victim.
And mom.

Thank you for thought provoking comments, even though I don’t like to think about them.
Eda Apr 9th 2008 at 12:42 pm 116

Jen,

I’m glad my story might help you. I have another that might help as well…

First, I went to a seminar last week that had a panel of men talking about women — how they treat them and how they want to be treated etc. Now, as a single woman, I am always evaluating single men in terms of whether or not they are the kind of guys I would date. As the four guys walked to the stage, I thought — I wouldn’t date guy 1 because he’s too short; I wouldn’t date guy 2 because he’s too fat, I wouldn’t date guy 3 because he’s too old and skinny. There was only one guy that caught my eye. However, as each guy talked and more of their personality came through, I realized that every guy on that panel was really fun, caring, intelligent , and very date-able!

2. Along those same lines, I am now dating someone who at first glance, wasn’t “my type.” On our first date, I thought he was nerdy and awkward and boring. But, he was very sweet (If any of the cynical men on this website take that to mean, he paid for the date, he didn’t We met at a coffee shop and I bought my own coffee and he bought his.) He asked me out again, and I agreed. As we are getting to know each other better, I am learning that he’s actually quite interesting and fun and considerate. I think I would have missed out if I had dismissed him because he didn’t meet my physical preferences and make my heart skip a beat.

So, I would urge you to consider giving more guys a chance. You just might be pleasantly surprised!
hunter Apr 9th 2008 at 03:46 pm 117

To Eda,

I wish more women thought like you do…
Eda Apr 10th 2008 at 03:29 pm 118

Hunter,

Thank you for the compliment. I had a lot of help getting there!
Evan Marc Katz Apr 10th 2008 at 03:34 pm 119

You are the best, Eda. It’s been such a pleasure working with you. Please let me know how it goes…
Jen Apr 11th 2008 at 06:53 am 120

I understand Eda but don’t you get drawn to some types almost unconsciously? Or am I just letting myself off the hook? I’m not talking about looks. My man just turned 61 and he looks and feels it, but he has the problem with it, not me. I was first attracted to him because we could talk and ok I thought he was cute. But it was his personality that attracted me initially. We had fun together. It’s personality “types” I am attracted, not looks. I think you are talking about personalities also???
Li-Ann Apr 11th 2008 at 02:12 pm 121

Jen, hang in there. I feel for you. Things will work out in the end. You seem so nice. You have your good heart, and that means a lot more that what just ONE man thinks or tells you.

A lot of people, men and women, have an inflated sense of entitlement. I feel if a man or woman think they can do better, they should leave their partner alone. What is the point of making their partner feel terrible because they are resentful that they are “stuck with them” and not with the random hot person who strides into view.

It is so hard to make the leap when you feel you will be alone after. Age for women makes a difference. I could lose this type of guy when I was in my twenties, but I already knew that through my late twenties, the possibilities slowed way down. There was a great selection in college, and I didn’t really anticipate the future. Also, who realistically wants to settle down then? Yet, suddenly, in the work force, the choices dried up. I met Mr. Charming after several years of nothing at all. The places I worked seemed to have nothing but married guys, or guys who were dating

Sometimes I think – when a woman dreams of her future relationship, does she ever dream of anything like what I experienced? Of course not. Would you wish this on your daughter if you had one? No.

You only have one lifetime to experience. What kind of life will it be? Joy or misery? Better alone than going through every single day constantly being reminded by someone that you fall short of his physical ideal? You know how great sometime a compliment can make you feel? It can make your day. All I was doing was having someone bring down my mood on a daily basis. I could have stayed with it for years more – but what was I achieving? Since his insults were based on physical appearance, they could only get worse.

You also have to think of the beating you are suffering inside listening to a man lusting after others, or insulting you. You may think you are handling it okay, and I definitely kept myself busy with my volunteer work and other hobbies, so I really did keep my mind off it. However, years really quickly went by, and though I could block it, and he would periodically apologize when the mood struck him, the behaviour always came back. It was part of his core personality. He was appreciative that I was cooking for him, cleaning for him, and sometimes he would be nice. But it did not last. He made it clear that he’d prefer a better looking person who would cook/clean, and many times he acted like being with me was putting him out and keeping him from all the women he lusted after.

I remember the great collective sigh of relief when I was finally alone. It was somewhat unexpected. I really didn’t realize the stress the situation was creating for me as I kept myself busy with distractions. I must say that the day I drove back from the airport and he had finally gone, I felt the strangest most joyful feeling suddenly come over me. It was as if I was back in school, possibilities were opening up, and that I was an okay person. I stress this point as that sudden feeling of relief was a huge surprise to me. I mean we couldn’t even watch TV – I would cringe if any woman came on because the first thing he’d say is “why can’t you look/dress/be like her”. Now all this utter CRAP was gone.
Eda Apr 11th 2008 at 02:57 pm 122

Jen,

I was talking about physical appearance. To be honest, I never really think about not being able to attract the type of personality I like. Like Li-Ann said, you seem like a really nice lady, so I curious as to what type of personality attracts you and why don’t you feel men with that personality would find you attractive?
Eda Apr 11th 2008 at 03:02 pm 123

Thank you, Evan. I can’t tell you how much you’ve helped me.
hunter Apr 11th 2008 at 03:43 pm 124

To Li-Ann,

Seems as if you have come a long way. Congratulations, on getting to where you want to be…..
Jen Apr 15th 2008 at 10:51 am 125

Li-Ann:

Thanks for the response.

I am trying so hard not to blame him that I pretty much convince myself that I am unreasonably jealous and insecure. Which I am!!!
I am feeding off what he is dishing out.

I guess it doesn’t really matter WHY he says the things he does-thoughtlessness, etc….- but how it makes me feel (like holy CRAP!)
I am bogged down in the WHY. A familiar place.

More and more I want him to just go. The bad part, which I haven’t been able to share, is that he quit his job and has been unemployed for over a month. Fine with that for a while. I want him to find work that does not make him so miserable, and I respect his principles.
But, it’s going on longer than I expected. He assured me at first that he would take any lousy job if he couldn’t find something decent.
Not happening!

I am suddenly seeing the benefit of a long courtship! The more I get to know him the more unfortunately I do not like.

THanks for sharing.
mariah Apr 15th 2008 at 12:55 pm 126

for the acouple of wks. my husband of 4 yrs.now is attuide as been totally different hes been talking about other women that he knows or says to me ohh shes hott etc… the usual words that come out of guys mouth, which makes me feel like crap and that im not good enough, im just scared that he might be doing something behind my back, he recently got a tattoo and i asked how much did u pay for it he told me that someone else paid little things like that . i dont know i just have a gut feeling something is not rite or maybe im wrong . my sexual drive is down the toilet cause of all the thinking ive been doing latly and just thoughts of him being with someone else please someone help and give me some point of views thanks
Li-Ann Apr 15th 2008 at 03:26 pm 127

Dear Jen,

You wrote that you are now thinking you are “unreasonably jealous and insecure”. I wouldn’t look at it that way. After my ex would insult me repeatedly about my appearance, he would always say (when he was in his making up phase) that I was just too insecure. That way it got him off the hook – it was really my fault! I don’t know if your boyfriend is trying to convince you that you are the one with the problem, but I do know that verbal abusers do not want to feel badly about themselves. They do not want to think of themselves as a bad person. They want to think of themselves as nice people. So if and when they do apologize, they will often try to manipulate it into being the other person’s fault. It might be subtle, but it is usually there.

It is easy to find excuses for him, but if he’s been told once that some kind of treatment bothers you, it should be enough. That is, if he cares about your feelings. Certain types of personalities are unable to really empathize with others and feel nothing at hurting them.

My ex quite his job about 3 weeks after we moved in together. He said he was too good to take the jobs he was offered. Although I understood, and wanted him to have a job he enjoyed, I had always taken jobs below my qualifications when money was necessary. If I had a room mate, I would not tell him/her that they have to support me till I find the perfect job. He DID take crappy jobs while he had other room mates. I thought he could work even 2 days a week, just a token amount of money for food, but he refused, saying things like “if I loved him I wouldn’t make him work”. Turning the blame on me. That phase lasted about 4 years. He did finally get a job, but by then my nerves were shot. I just got 4 years older. If he had been even a bit sweeter, loving to me, etc., I could have dealt with helping him succeed career wise. One thing I noted that the longer someone doesn’t work, the harder to get back into the swing of it. It just gets to be easier to stay where you are.

I can’t say what will happen with your situation, and I’m sure he would want to work, but you can never know how long it will take, and if you can hold out waiting.

As for settling, and also going back to the original question posed, I think the most realistic thing to do is to weigh out the positives and negatives. She wrote that she’s been married 2 years and that he mostly treats her well otherwise. She has to decide whether she can settle for his comments about other women in exchange for the fact that on other occasions he treats her well. Of course, 2 years is still early. They often can get worse with the years.
hunter Apr 18th 2008 at 12:03 am 128

to Li-Ann

I dream of catching one of you working women……….man you are with must be a cutie/good lover…..I hear they get a lot of business…
Lisa Jun 2nd 2008 at 12:01 pm 129

Hi to all

I have a wonderful mariage i must say. However the prolem i have with my husband is one that is really getting to me and i spoke to him about it over and over.

My husband has this thing about him calling his girlfriends babes, sweetheart etc. I ask him to stop doing that since I think that those are more on an itimate line and should reserve those for me his wife. Every time i tell him that he gets very upset and pissed off and tells me how am jealous and a control freak and how he cannot take it anymore because I know him calling her that he deosn’t mean anything to it. After all he will tell me if i don’t like it i must shove it and i will have to live with it since he is not going to stop calling them som. To top it all off when they sends each other mails he tends to call them by that with a big exclamation mark just to hurt me.

Can someone please tell me if am over reacting?
Selena Jun 2nd 2008 at 03:30 pm 130

I don’t think you are over reacting. I also wouldn’t call having someone tell me to “shove it” a wonderful marriage either.
Rachael Jun 4th 2008 at 09:23 am 131

I agree wholeheartedly with Selena; that sounds like anything BUT a “wonderful marriage”. You’ve got a major red flag, and it’s not the fact that he calls his women friends “babe” or “sweetheart”. I have a close girlfriend, one of my bridesmaids, in fact, whose husband calls me “sweetheart” and similar things. The big difference is that his wife doesn’t mind.

Your big red flag is the lack of respect you’re being shown. He doesn’t stop doing this, even though it hurts you – instead, he calls you a jealous control freak. It’s a relatively minor change you’re asking him to make, for your peace of mind, and rather than try to understand why you feel the way you do, he insults and belittles you.

Further, you say he e-mails these women, emphasizing the “babe” or “sweetheart”, just to hurt you.

If my husband was doing anything “just to hurt me”, I’d be having serious thoughts about whether the marriage was even salvageable, and not remotely considering it “wonderful”.
JuJu Jun 4th 2008 at 02:02 pm 132

Moreover, Lisa, you yourself do not consider your marriage wonderful. You know how I know? You wrote here.
Cilla Jun 5th 2008 at 11:37 am 133

Li-Ann, I put up with similar behavior from my ex-BF for over 4 years. At first, it was just irritating, and I wrote it off as “normal” male behavior. You know, you hear a lot of that out there: “I should be dating supermodels.” “I don’t need to look good, but she does.” Etc. My ex-husband was such an angry man, I was just happy to be with someone who didn’t scream at me all the time.

Well, I should have said something, instead of just eating his comments. I also should have seen it as a BIG red flag for what it turned out to be: a classic high functioning borderline personality disorder (Google it, if you’re not familiar). By the time he dumped me, he had me coming and going to the point where I thought I was the crazy one. I’m not saying your spouse has this disorder, just that ignoring it was not good in my case.

He did me a big favor by ultimately leaving the relationship. I,too, immediately had that sense of weight lifted off my shoulders. It may take me a while to get past the damage to my self-esteem, and it may make me a little leery of men, but I will never enable that kind of behavior again.

I don’t know what to tell you, other than you don’t have to take it. Look deep within yourself and know you are better than that. If he can’t knock it off, you may need to make a difficult decision.
Sahaja Jul 31st 2008 at 01:31 am 134

You know how in business they always say “Location, Location, Location?” It seems like in relationships the tagline should be “Communication, Communication, Communication” And I dont mean with your partner, though thats a part of it, but I do believe that one must have an honest dialogue with yourself too. If you are aware that something really bothers and irks you it has to be said to that person, otherwise it will eat you up inside. Thank god for my friends who have taught me to deal with things straight instead of rehashing it with my friends over and over until they go nuts. If people said what they really felt a lot of arguments could be avoided.
laurie Jan 3rd 2009 at 10:16 am 135

My husband recently told me that he found someone attractive and he works in heating and cooling in low income single womens homes I have always had an issue with this I am not comfortable with him going to these womens homes esecially after 5 pm and I tell him all the time he will come to me 2 times a week and tell me that he needs to go to someones home to fix something on the heater I tell him that I am not comfortable we get into a big fight and then he doesn’t go — last week I told him that I had many many things I need to get done for Christmas instead of helping he he wanted to go to this ladys house and fix something I think?? It seems like now telling me that he found one of the women attractive that I feel I am lacking beauty I feel scared that he is preparing me for the future of him possible cheating.
Both his dad and stepdad are cheaters he says he is not like that. Prior to my meeting to my husband he stalked another women and spent 6 month sleeping with another man–I know that is really wierd and I think that he maybe off alittle so when he finds another women attractive it scares me wouldn’t it scare you.
Sayanta Jan 3rd 2009 at 03:20 pm 136

To Mike’s Post:
” As I see it, when a man and woman get married, there is no social contact with the opposite sex. None. Zero. Business only and then minimize it. I don’t hold conversations with women, except to return a polite courtesy. Likewise my wife with men. Polite and respectful and that’s it. We also make sure we are not secluded with another man or woman, innocent or not. He has no business looking at other women much less hurting his wifes feelings about it. A little self control, please. Let him look at his wife. Let him tell her how attractive she is. Every day. She won’t mind.”

I just read this- sorry, but this sounds waaaay too extreme. It sounds like someone who has to have ‘little social contact’ with the opposite sex after marriage has serious trust/self-control issues.
lisa07 Jul 8th 2009 at 08:37 am 137

My husband makes sometimes comments about other women but he never loses his cool in public.. I mean he never does anything to show his attraction to them… In the present problem I don’t see anything mentioned about the husband saying anything to them!
About what Mike comment I think he is right. I had a friend that had a male best friend and she was always talking about how nice and smart that friend was. Also because that guy was not living with her he had a lot less time to hurt her or make mistakes ..in a time when her marriage had small problems (like who washes the dishes for example) the friend became the ideal man and the problems became big. She eventually cheated her husband with a 17 year old boy… So, me and my husband have friends men and women with whom we get out and have a drink but I wouldn’t agree with a opposite sex “best friend”.
An other thing.. are we sure that the husband in the article above was “going on and on and on”? I mean is it sure it’s not just her opinion based on her jealous dependencies? Maybe the guy just mentioned it once!
Yesterday my husband said “I have seen some very interesting, good looking, model like men in the subway. Out of curiosity, do you think you would check me out if you would see me on the street?” What I heard was “I have seen…. women…. ” and because of it I am on this forum.. I can’t believe how dump I was!
I think that men should keep their mouth shut more and women should be less sensitive … but at the end if he and she have their values right this kind of comments should not be a big problem.
kelli Aug 6th 2009 at 08:19 am 138

After feeling secondary to every pretty woman on TV since my husband points them out to me continually, along with various sexual innuendos that continue to hurt my feelings, I decided to get him where it hurts – his pocketbook. I told him I have to keep up with all the pretty girls he continues to point out to me and that he ogles after, so I spend a fortune on clothes, collagen and I am scheduled for a breast enhancement procedure. And the bonus is that due to my own vanity, I don’t have to “grow old gracefully”. If big boobs turn his head in front of me and he has to stare at them, then I can only return the favor the rest of the men in the world. Cuz trust me ladies, some people on here have said to ogle over men and that will get him back – trust me, it won’t. They aren’t built like us. However, if he sees other men eyeballing you, that is a completely different story.
Priyanka Sep 15th 2009 at 10:13 am 139

I have been so intrigued by eveyone’s insight on this topic so thank you. I am also dealing with a similar situation where my husband of 3 months has used the moments I am down as a great time to point out or ogle at attractive women on the tv and gracefully look behind us at an attractive woman/girl thinking I’m too pre-occupied to notice. I’ve come to the conclusion that he has some growing up to do. In the meantime, I don’t mind pointing out attractive men on TV and ogling myself, although I will not go beyond my own standards of respect for him. I know he feels this and will adjust his insensitive behaviour. When or if he does, then I will no longer have the need to teach him how to treat others the way he wants to be treated. I’ve also decided to look good for myself when I’m up for it by taking caring of myself, like I used to do when I was single. I’m a huge believer that people around us will love us as much as we love ourselves, for the most part. I will also “get a life” as focus on what he may or may not like are things I just don’t care about anymore. I think it is important to nip in the bud now and if talking doesn’t help me, which it doesn’t because he uses emotional manipulation to try to make me feel guilty so he can do as he pleases, I’ll use other means to stay happy. Thank God for beautiful girfriends to lift my spirits up. I think at the end of the day both women and men need to feel loved, appreciated, undertood (a big one for me) and empathized with. The higher we all raise our own standards as to how we will be treated by other people, the higher standards in action people end up displaying themselves. I also think that the reason there is such a high incidence of disrespect and hurt in relationships is because people in general give excuses for the poor behaviour of others
There are so many great posts that I’d love to comment on. Mike’s comments were classic, though I am not of the same opinion nor do I believe he’s truly being honest with himself.
Men who feel that one can only be friends with one sex are afraid of crossing the limits within their own relationship, whether it is their own or the boundaries defined between spouses. The thought that being around the opposite sex is “trouble” speaks volumes about the individual’s perception of their own self control/willpower and limiting beliefs about the other sex. What happens in this world when individuals decide to cut themselves off from 50% of the world’s population is a disconnection and lack of full understanding of people in the world. It’s like having one friend from Europe and THAT’S IT. There is no reason one cannot be friends with more than one European and have a fulfilling, committed, happy life and primary relationship with the one European of choice, unless you get easily distracted. That being said, there is no reason why this cannot happen by having just the one European friend. There is, however, more to lose by not socializing with other Europeans.
JerseyGirl Sep 19th 2009 at 07:33 am 140

I think it is important to nip in the bud now and if talking doesn’t help me, which it doesn’t because he uses emotional manipulation to try to make me feel guilty so he can do as he pleases, I’ll use other means to stay happy.
I think that is most important Priyanka. To do what makes you happy and ignore the emotional manipulation. And to treat yourself like you deserve, however that is.
I kind of feel like if a man is more interested in oggling other women or stealing glances then maybe he shouldn’t be in a relationship. It’s okay to not be in a relationship. If you are always looking after what you don’t have, then maybe you need to be by yourself.
Judy Sep 26th 2009 at 05:25 pm 141

I totally understand what you are saying. My husband has been openly talking openly to me about hot girls he sees on the street and on tv. It is not exactly to me, it is to himself but outloud and when I mention it hurts me he blows it off. He says I am too sensitive. I have been going through this for 10 years and it is hurting our marriage but he refuses to comprehend what I am saying. I have tried different approaches and it continues on today. Any advise? We are not young anymore .. both in our 40s.
doublestandards Sep 28th 2009 at 06:34 am 142

All of the comments on here are really interesting! I strongly agree that we women do need to set our standards and keep to them. WE choose how we should be treated. though i know how hard that is! i am really struggling atm. with society etc telling us women ‘men cant help it. get over it.’ etc. in regards to ogling and making comments about otherr women and pulling their own partner down!
One important thing that i try to remember (it helps me get a clearer head) is that while you may hav a partner (aka arrogant insecure pig) tell you that you need to lose weight, tone up, boobs arent big enough etc etc. doesnt mean his point of view is actually what he thinks (could be pure jealousy) OR it is absolutely NOT what other men/ women think about you! Prime example- for my first 3 bf’s (and random guys in the street) they thought my butt was the best thing on earth (quite protruding for my size). so even when i felt fat. i loved my butt. (i know i shouldnt take so much validation from them-am working on that!) but random ppl would stop me in teh street and comment on it/ my looks. my bf’s used to get men coming up saying ‘hold on to her mate!’, boys at work sould vote me as hottest girl etc etc…now i know thats extreme and so stupid but it helps make my point. (btw i am very secure- as you can tell by the fact i held onto these times!) BUT i then met my next bf. he would ogle other GIRLS (always around 16-18). cheated and bragged about how ‘beautiful’ she was, how my bum was too big and fatty and it turned him off. comment on other ‘beautiful’ girls. and say he doesnt look at me because he has ’seen me already’. etc. trust me. i was insecure as it was…but this pulled me right down (plus had jst left physically abusive relationship). point is- he had different opinions to all those other guys i mentioned…so DO NOT! FOR ONE SECOND! THINK IS POV IS VALID!!! we are all beautiful and sexy in our own way and you can bet your bottom dollar other men think so too! dress yuorself up, wear heals, get your hair done, wear lippy! and watch the Ogling begin! No matter what your age there will be men ogling you!
PLEASE love yourselves! i am 23 and find it so hard- i want to know that women of any age can love themselves and find men who do love them respectfully and think they are sexy as! don’t take the ‘i cant help it crap’…firstly, yes there may be studies showing men are visual…but so are women…and also, we can all help it!
SECONDLY, dont take the ‘its evolution crap’ that men want to sow their wild oats with as many women as possible- there is no concrete evidence. it is THEORY. i am sick of women putting up with these excuses! at any age! MY mum is 53 and ABSOLUTELY STUNNING! ALL women can be! sometimes i cant stop looking at her- she is just beautiful! it comes from the outside and the inside- anyone worth having in your life (male or female) will see this!
I am so sick of society and the media parring women up against each other! those ‘who’s hotter’ polls drive me nuts! and FAKE women at that! my gosh! this is what they want! this is what sells the makeup, surgery, diet products, magazines, self help books, clothes etc etc etc.

I, am taking a vow. right now. to not put up with any of this behaviour from men. i would rather be single!

Li-ann- i think it was you that mentioned that you dont fit your hubbies ‘ideal’ of beauty. just look at it this way- you would fit my exes it sounds like! so the point is- dont let it de value yourself to yourself…is that makes sense
JUDY- im only 23 so im not really in an authoratative position to give advice…but i studied psychology for 5 years and i have seen my fair share of psychologists and i have had my fair share of BOYS. have you tried doing it back to your husband?! he could even be jealous of something you know? feeling insecure about himself! start dressing sexy (dont you dare tell me you are too old!) and go out like that- really feel good about yourself! you are worth it! you know, do what an above poster said- hit his wallet…hard! im not saying go for surgery…but go get a facial, massage, cellulite treatments, buy new makeup and clothes that flatter you, start talking to the cute guy at the shops…come home and talk about a gorgeous guy that came into work and the CONVERSATION you had with him. i can bet my life your husband would get a second look from those women let alone a convo. also, this is only if you’re willing to try that stuff- like i said…im not sure…but thats what i will do with the next guy that says those things to me. (of course there is a time and a place- if we are casually talking about attractive people then i dont care too much if he can handle it back- long as its not sexual innuendos). otherwise seriously- see a counsellor/ psychologist- not because your ‘crazy’ but they can help you to define for yourself what is and isnt acceptable and put those appropriate boundaries up so you are respected. as far as im concerned when things like that go to far it gets abusive
CD Dec 26th 2009 at 09:10 pm 143

To Mike, I agree with you 100% when it comes to married people having friends of the opposite sex. You can certainly be kind and courteous while dealing with co-workers of the opposite sex, but going out alone for intimate little lunches or palling around with that person is wrong and puts an unnecessary strain on the marriage. If a married woman really wants a lot of male friends, she should not marry! The same goes for a man, if you crave the company of many women then stay single, don’t get married! I know these values seem hopelessly out of step with the “modern” world, but with a divorce rate of 50%, perhaps “old fashioned” isn’t such a bad idea!