My Unattractive Best Friend Is Completely Shallow! How Do I Help Him?
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After years of witnessing this phenomenon, I actually gave it a name: “The Matchmakers Dilemma”.
Simply put: Most people are 5’s, but they want to date 8’s.
This is why it’s so hard for a Matchmaker to set anyone up.
Because most people don’t think they’re 5’s. Or 3’s. In other words, most people are delusional.
(Sorry to be so crude as to rank people with numbers, but it’s shorthand to describe someone’s physicality and most people can grasp the concept, so…)
In the big bell curve of life, for every 10, there’s a 1; for every 9, there’s a 2; and so on. Most of us are going to fall somewhere in the middle of the bell curve – 4, 5, 6. Most of us are average.
Then why can’t we come to terms with it? Not everyone is of equal attractiveness. Not everyone makes the same living. Not everyone has the same sense of humor. Not everyone is equally personable or kind. Yet we certainly wouldn’t admit that we were below average on any of these things. We’re all Mother Teresa, we all look great for our age, we all love to laugh. Just go on a dating site. You’ll see.
My fiancé quotes an old Friends episode where Joey says that people are allowed to date within 2 slots of themselves. Thus, if you’re a 7, you can date a 6 or an 8. Any more than that, somebody’s slumming.
When I work with clients online, pretty much all of them put the most attractive people on their favorites list. It’s hard to blame them. Why write to “the 4” when you can write to “the 9”? Yet even dozens of rejections later, many still refuse to grasp the fact that they’re overreaching. They feel they deserve a 9.
“I can’t help what I’m attracted to,” they say.
“I can get people like this in real life,” they say.
“I’m not dating anyone short/old//heavy,” they say.
Doesn’t matter if they’re short, old, or heavy. They want what they want.
Dan needs to come to terms with the idea that beautiful women have the option of going out with men who are younger, cuter, thinner, taller, funnier, and more confident than he is. And while it’s no crime to be attracted to a Maxim model, it’s not a very realistic goal for him – or for the majority of American men.
My fiancé quotes an old Friends episode where Joey says that people are allowed to date within 2 slots of themselves. Thus, if you’re a 7, you can date a 6 or an 8. Any more than that, somebody’s slumming.
Any hot woman who dated Dan would be slumming. Which is why he needs to get in touch with what he can command on the open market. It really hurts to say this, but apart from a handful of wealthy men who can attract a hot golddigger, there are few folks who can overcome obesity, lack of personality, and social cluelessness.
If you’re a true friend, Jeff, you should tell Dan the truth. That to get a hot woman, he’s got to slim down. That he should hire a dating coach or study some pick up artists. That setting him up with your church’s finest would be a disaster for all parties involved.
Then again, I’m the guy who wrote “Why You’re Still Single: Things Your Friends Would Tell You If You Promised Not to Get Mad”, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt, would ya?
Let us know how it goes.
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82 Comments »Filed Under Dating
Cathouse Teri 1
I think Dan needs to do a lot more than slim down. He needs to quit being a putz. It’s like trying to help someone who is in an abusive relationship. Only in Dan’s case, he’s abusing himself… with his own delusions. And has gotten quite used to it. Why bring a partner into his abusive world? Do the world a favor and tell Dan you can’t help him. He’s on his own, regarding women. If he hasn’t learned anything from by now, he ain’t gonna.
Steve 2
Jeff;
If you want to help Dan you are going to have to risk offending him. You are going to have to burn 3 messages into his brain:
1. People who will settle for nothing other than perfection get just that – NOTHING.
Nobody is perfect to be around, not even 10s. He has to learn to accept others for his own happiness. The best way for him to do that is to start accepting himself. That will help his other issues too. I recommend “Overcoming The Rating Game” by Dr. Paul Hauck. After that, research Dr. Albert Ellis’ concept of “Universal Self Acceptance”.
2. He is 35. He doesn’t have all the time in the world left.
Time and opportunities pass fast at his age. He needs to get moving right now if he doesn’t want to lose out for good.
3. Nobody can help him.
It is possible for him to lose weight, improve his confidence, improve his social skills, and improve his personality. All of those changes are only possible if a person has strong internal motivation.
Nobody can push him into these changes. Not even you.
Give it a good try for your own peace of mind and accept whatever comes.
Karl R 3
Jeff sounds like he’s part of Dan’s problem.
Dan texts Jeff “4 times per week” to see if Jeff has found him a woman. Jeff has only found Dan 2 potential matches, both of which were unsuitable for Dan. But by perpetuating this charade, Jeff is allowing Dan to pretend (perhaps even to himself) that he’s doing plently to find a woman. Jeff is supposed to somehow magically find a beautiful princess that will happily fall in love with and kiss the frog.
It’s time for Jeff to tell Dan that he’s stopped looking. Put the burden of the search back onto Dan. Then he’ll at least need to start talking to the women … as well as taking all the other necessary steps.
In addition, Jeff is worried that an attractive woman might show a little interest in Dan and he’d fall head over heels for someone who was otherwise completely unsuitable for him. SO WHAT !! Dan is 35 years old. He’s allowed to make some bad personal decisions. If the decisions have unhappy consequences, then he might learn something from the experience.
Overall, I agree with Evan’s assessment of people wanting a mate who is an 8, 9 or 10. But I’ve figured out a couple ways around that particular hurdle.
Years ago, my first serious relationship was with a lady who was distinctly better looking than I was. At the time, I was probably a 5….
But I was this lady’s type. On her scale (lanky), I was probably a 9.
I can also make use of this the other way around. If most men consider a woman to be a 4, but I see her as a 7 or 8, that works in my favor. And the guys who are “chubby chasers” have it made. Their 9s and 10s are most guys’ 1s and 2s.
And to follow up on Evan’s observation, that people will say, “I can get people like this in real life.” I’ve certainly found that to be true in my life. I tend to meet women at church, at the yoga studio, or at the dance studio. All three locations lack single men around my age. And if you broaden the range to single men of any age, I’m one of the youngest and best looking in all three locations. Relative to the competition, I am a 9.
Of course, I’ll also highly recommend getting in shape and building self-confidence for Dan or anyone else. If you improve yourself from a 5 to a 7, your odds of dating an 8 increase dramatically.
jaclyn 4
I noticed that you quoted your fiance in this story. Congratulations on your engagement! I hope that you both live a very long and happy life together!
Take care,
Jaclyn
xpuff 5
I was totally with your advice until I got to the part where “Dan needs to slim down.” I like most of your advice but maybe you need to revisit the statistics on weight loss–that even if Dan was one of the lucky few who lost weight there is a 99% chance of him regaining it back within five years. So if he managed to slim down and attract a hottie, in five years if she is as shallow as he is, she’ll be unhappy in the relationship.
To find lasting love he should look for someone who’ll love him for what he looks like normally and come to the terms that she’s probably not likely to be a model.
cinnamon 6
ha, ha
I also noticed the fiance! Congratulations to both of you!
Steve 7
@xpuff;
Do you actually have those statistics? I ask because I lost 48 lbs last year with a system that I am convinced provides an answer for maintenance. I started looking for stats so I could make 1 year and 5 years goals. I couldn’t find anything as gloomy as you allude to, at least not on the web. If you have recent, gloomy stats, I would appreciate having them.
Steve 8
Yah, congrats on the soon to be ex-single dating exert thing.
Steve 9
Jeff, Evan;
You both describe men would not be attractive on that 1- 10 scale and you both describe pointing attractive women that they would have a chance with. How can these women be attractive if they are at the same level of attractiveness as your unattractive male friends?
Dating Headshots 10
“Because most people don’t think they’re 5′s. Or 3′s. In other words, most people are delusional.”
LOL! You sure know how to tell it like it is.
JuJu 11
xpuff,
that’s because most people’s approach to weight loss focuses on the external, whereas the only approach that would work permanently is cultivating self-love and self-respect. It’s not the weight that’s the problem. I mean, it certainly can be, just like many symptoms of various diseases can be enormous problems in and of themselves, but the weight is exactly that – a SYMPTOM of a problem.
Anyhow, this particular guy does not sound like he has much to offer regardless. The four messages a week demonstrate a clear lack of social graces, and the lack of discernment – issues with self-worth.
And I am sorry, but the letter is so poorly written that I had trouble understanding it. I, too, do not think it shouldn’t become his friend’s problem, and especially in a case that appears like the blind leading the blind.
Honey 12
I agree with others here that giving him back the reins is the best way to go. If you feel that your friendship can stand it, give him a brutally honest assessment of where he’s going wrong. If not, then send him to online dating (Evan lists some Christian dating sites and there are also things like Equally Yoked, if sharing a religion is a requirement) and let him find out on his own.
To be honest, your portrayal of him makes him sound like he has Asperger syndrome, in which case behavioral therapy may be more helpful than a friend’s advice, however well-meaning. Ultimately, as long as you make it clear that you are not actively seeking for him (though you’d of course pass along anyone’s info that you happened upon) because HE should be the one actively seeking, then you’ve done what you can do.
A-L 13
As Evan said, we all overestimate our own attractiveness. If you don’t want to be the blunt killer of whatever self-esteem your friend has you may want to send him to http://www.facestat.com where he can submit his photo and people will rate it based on attractiveness (and other qualities). That might help reduce the swelling around his head, and perhaps make him more realistic about his options.
Steve 14
Now that Evan is engaged, that just means he has another ex-girlfriend
Selena 15
A less blunt way would be to refer him to this blog and have him read past entries. Then he will see that just about EVERYONE has some of the same issues when it comes to meeting the perfect partner. Too short, fat, ethnic, too attractive, curvy, old, virgin, experienced, shy, live in NY, live in a small town, live in a rural area, make under x$ a year, worried about golddiggers, ambitious, not ambitious, religious preference, divorced, never married, want kids, don’t want kids–on and on.
The diverse opinions on this site can be good for a reality check sometimes. Or at least to let you know…You’re not alone out there even though you’re single.
vino 16
Why on earth is this even a topic?
What flipping business is it of Jeff’s (OP) that HIS perspective is his friend is shallow? Why do so may people who are married/involved actively campaign to play matchmaker? To compound matters, he tells the world (internet) he thinks his friend is shallow.
Some friend. Glad I don’t know him.
Stay out of it. It’s NONE of Jeff’s concern, or ours. Period.
JuJu 17
It’s peculiar, I personally never rate the men I date with numbers. I just think in terms of who is attractive to -me-.
Isn’t assigning a number – a way of gauging how others will react to your choice?
Nor would I describe myself as any particular number, especially since I’d rate my face and body differently.
A-L, I looked at a few faces on that site and I think this format and the opportunity to anonymously blurt out whatever comes to mind brought out the worst in me (and apparently in others too, from some adjectives I saw). Not sure I’d advise anyone to “establish their value” this way.
m 18
Whoa there, vino.
You seem to be a little emotional on the topic. Overreacting a bit there? Can’t imagine why.
*laughs gently into sleeve*
It *is* (the newly affianced!!) Evan’s job to give advice.
I do find it interesting is that peoples’ “numbers” don’t seem to be reflective of their personalities in this discussion. It’s all looks! looks! looks!
By my calculations, even if Dan went to Zegna for a complete makeover and the gym for the rest of his life, he’d still be a “3″ ’cause his personality’s just that odious. (And I’d bet a decent percentage of those hot size 00 blonde “9″s y’all are chasing would agree.)
But I’m a girl. We think about these things. I guess it really *is* only looks that matter to the guys here.
BTW, Steve, you didn’t ask me specifically for them, but here are your gloomy stats. There are about 53 links there for your perusal:
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=%22regain+it+within+5+years%22&btnG=Google+Search
A small consolation – it’s easier for men to keep off than women, though, because your bodies aren’t programmed to store fat for kids like ours are. (Not that you all generally give us a break on that scale, or offer to watch the kids for the hour and a half it takes to work out and get in and out of the gym, or anything.)
Cute Redhead 19
I kinda have the opposite problem — maybe. You can tell me. I’ve never had trouble finding some to date but felt insecure about my hotness — you know, there is always someone thinner and sexier, etc. I will grant that I am cute.
I haven’t done the internet dating thing too much, but decided to give it a go through one of those compatability sites. Holy smokes–now I see what I have been missing. I have been dating so many guys, and so many want second, third, who knows how many dates — it’s a bit overwhelming! Am I cuter than I thought? I have to say that this time with the dating I am paying a lot of attention to the way I dress (I’m kind of a tomboy, so that was never my thing). Who knew that a dress and a pair of heels and some eye makeup could take me so far.
Also, I have to add that I really like each and every one of these guys. And here I thought I was a man-hater. A tomboyish man-hater. Turns out I make a little concession to girliness and end up with a whole slew of nice guys who have a lot going for them and would be good boyfriends or husbands. Who knew?
Now the problem is — how do I choose? What a problem, eh?
Thanks for reading!
xpuff 20
@Steve
Someone already beat me to it, but check out this link too:
http://www.naafa.org/documents/brochures/weightloss.html
A great book on the subject is “Rethinking Thin” by Gina Kolata. The actual science of losing weight is contrary to all conventional wisdom on the subject.
Congrats for losing 48 pounds, that’s a great achievement and hopefully you’ll be one of the ones that beats the statistics.
vino 21
Another gem of positive contribution from m.
“Can’t imagine why.”
And a kudos to Cute Redhead’s post, even if it is a bit off-topic..
Am I the only one who notices that “Jeff” sells his “shallow” friend down the river to the internet? Great friend. There’s someone you want to share personal details with. *sarcasm* Even if what he says is 100% true, it still is not his business to publish this to the world. “Jeff” needs to drink a pint or 2 of STFU and mind his own business.
So should we. It would be different if “Jeff’s” friend posted asking for opinions about whether he himself is shallow, thereby putting himself ‘out there.’ However, he did not.
hunter 22
to Jeff,
First of all, your 35 year old has to do his own shopping/hunting for a woman.
Secondly, the type of woman he wants, exists, but, in a much smaller pool of single women.
Almost seems as if the man is clueless, he can get on the internet join one or several of the PUA clubs. Tell him to hurry, there is lots of reading to be done, and lots and lots of practice approaching women….
cinnamon 23
vino
Actually, I agree with you. Already the previous thread about PUA made me very uneasy (if only for the fact that it put PUA practices in line with professional relationship councelling).
If these growing concerns stop me posting comments here, I’ll still be looking in here to read the intelligent posts of you and a few other people.
By the way, anyone else misses Mrs. Vee?
Michael Ejercito 24
I was totally with your advice until I got to the part where Dan needs to slim down. I like most of your advice but maybe you need to revisit the statistics on weight loss that even if Dan was one of the lucky few who lost weight there is a 99% chance of him regaining it back within five years. So if he managed to slim down and attract a hottie, in five years if she is as shallow as he is, shell be unhappy in the relationship.
Why is it so hard to lose weight?
Do people really have to eat a lot every single day? Are they perpetually hungry?
Dan has no expectation of women to be the right weight if he is overweight himself.
Jennifer 25
This post/question seems appropriate to me.
Jeff’s friend has asked him for dating help and advice. Jeff has tried to advise his friend, but is unsure of how to proceed given how he feels. So he asks for advice on *his own* problem, which just happens to involve his friend. It happens all the time with husband and wives, best friends, etc. and i don’t think we’d say any of them were selling their partner out when they ask a third part for advice (anonymously i might add)
Jeff’s friend invited him into his business by asking for help; i didn’t read it as Jeff bulldozing his way in. All in all, the query seems appropriate to me.
Karl R 26
m stated: “I do find it interesting is that peoples’ ‘numbers’ don’t seem to be reflective of their personalities in this discussion. It’s all looks! looks! looks!”
I think that’s mostly an attempt to stay on topic. In addition, attractiveness is something that most people find important. I’m more strongly biased toward intelligence than appearance, but that’s not a trait that everyone will find as appealing.
Furthermore, most of Evan’s comments can also be applied to other characteristics. I’ll only date women who are in the top 10% of the population intelligence-wise, and I prefer to date in the top 1%. I’m in the top 1%, so I date my equals or near-equals. The lady I just started dating is in the top 0.1% of the population (or higher). She is “dating down” intelligence-wise by dating me; if she didn’t date down, she’d be dealing with an impossibly small dating pool.
And if it sounds like I’m a bit of a snob regarding intelligence, you’re right. And I’d be quick to agree that intelligence shouldn’t come ahead of traits like honesty or compassion. You could even make a reasonable arguement that my focus on intelligence is as shallow as Dan’s focus on appearance.
But for almost everyone (including me), looks will be the one criteria that I’ll be judging by for the first 5 to 10 seconds of encountering someone. Probably because my eyesight is much better than my ESP. We see people before we talk to them (unless I’ve forgotten my glasses).
m also stated: “But I’m a girl. We think about these things. I guess it really *is* only looks that matter to the guys here.”
You’re not representative of all women in this society; just like I’m not representative of all men. A little over a year ago I was discussing online dating with a middle-aged woman. She was complaining that all the men who contacted her had pot-bellies, which she found absolutely disgusting. Even the ones who claimed they exercised had pot-bellies.
As I listened to this woman’s diatribe against men with pot-bellies, I was thinking, “but you have a pot-belly….”
This woman would not tolerate men who had pot-bellies, even though her own stomach hung over her belt. It’s not just the men who are focused on (and hypocritical about) appearance.
vino 27
jen,
please read the original post again. I saw nothing that indicated good old jeff was asked by shallow hal for his help with his shallowness.
even so, I don’t see where telling the world hal is shallow behind his back is helpful, or marginally the act of a (loyal) friend. jeff should simply tell hal he is on his own, not sell him down the river on the internet.
Marc 28
Jeff’s friend will either wind up a real life 40 year old virgin, or will have to pay for sex, if he isn’t already. I think what is required here, is not “tough” love, but “brutal, kick you in the ass like you’ve never been kicked in the ass before” love. By rejecting women who are in his league (the 1s and 2s), Dan’s expressing his disapproval with his own “1″ or”2″ status, but projecting it onto the women with whom Jeff is trying to arrange a match. It’s like he’s saying, “I’M not fat and undesirable. THEY are.” When he realizes he needs to take the steps necessary to lose the weight, learn some social skills, and feel more confident, he won’t feel the need to reject women who aren’t 9s or 10s in his eyes.
Jeff can either be the one who kicks him in the ass, or enables his current behavior. It’s up to him.
Rachel 29
Evan, you completely missed the mark here. This is not simply an issue of a 1 wanting a 10 and being self-delusional or shallow.
I was thinking exactly what Marc just said above — Jeff’s friend was actually rejecting himself when he was rejecting those potential matches “with similar characteristics” (i.e. obese). Also, he rejects others before they can reject him. That’s a person who needs a lot of professional help.
Jeff should firmly suggest that his friend spend a lot of quality time loving and improving himself before he tries to find a woman. You can’t love someone if you don’t love yourself, and what woman is going to deal with that mess?
He needs to get on a health program, being at high risk of diabetes, heart disease, and cancer (he may already have 2 out of 3, at age 35). This will take a lifetime of dedication, focus, and strength of mind. Maybe if he can put a little effort into this, he will be able to find something to like about himself.
Jennifer 30
@ # 27
Hi Vino,
I understand how you come to the conclusion that Dan didn’t ask for Jeff’s help, but once Dan starting texting me 4 times a week asking about whether or not I’d found him a woman, I’d consider that him putting me in his business.
I just don’t see how Jeff has sold Dan down the river by posting an anonymous question to a third party. He feels how he feels. I’d think after 20 years Jeff would be able to man up and tell Dan how he felt about how he approached dating, and the fact that he can’t isn’t a positive, but to me that’s not the point of the post.
I guess we’ll just agree to disagree on this one.
Karl R 31
vino, compare the following quotes…
vino:(#27) “jeff should simply tell hal he is on his own”
Cathouse Teri:(#1) “Do the world a favor and tell Dan you can’t help him. He’s on his own, regarding women.”
Steve:(#2) “Nobody can help him … Nobody can push him into these changes. Not even you.”
Karl R:(#3) “It’s time for Jeff to tell Dan that he’s stopped looking. Put the burden of the search back onto Dan.”
JuJu:(#11) “I, too, do not think it shouldn’t become his friends problem,”
Honey:(#12) “I agree with others here that giving him back the reins is the best way to go.”
It appears that even you agree that Jeff needs to stop trying to help Dan. Unlike the rest of us, however, you’re assuming that Jeff already knew the answer to this question. The rest of us are assuming he didn’t.
I’m assuming that Jeff’s too close to the problem to see the obvious answer. Not only is Jeff close friend of Dan’s, but he’s also some sort of pastor to Dan. It’s probably not in Jeff’s nature to tell people that he won’t help them.
The internet is not a private forum for “Jeff” to ask his questions in. It’s better than that. It’s completely anonymous. Anyone could be “Jeff” or “Dan”. For all you know, Cathouse Teri is Jeff and I’m Dan. (Sure, it’s inconsistent with other statements we’ve made, but maybe that’s how she’s protecting our identities.)
Selena 32
Re. #31
What I got out of it was Jeff was rather exasperated trying to help Dan for last 20 yrs. He no longer knew what to say, so he wrote to a America’s #1 Dating Expert for advice on what to do. Who better?
Why this should be construed as embarrassing or “outing” Dan over the internet escapes me. This blog is anonymous and presumably Dan doesn’t read it anyway. Though perhaps he should.
xpuff 33
@Michael Ejercito
Of course, you’re perfectly right, losing weight is not hard at all, that’s why everyone around you is effortlessly thin, and there’s no such thing as a billion dollar diet industry.
starthrower68 34
Greetings Brother Jeff! Have you tried speaking any scripture with Dan, i.e. “Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall”? Here’s another for him: “An intelligent, competent, and virtuous woman – who is he who can find her? Her value is worth more than gold and far above rubies or pearls.” Proverbs 31:10.
starthrower68 35
Another thought (and I apologize if this has been said already): is it possible that Dan is not so much shallow as he has such little self-esteem he’s unconsciously (or maybe consciously) attracted to unattainable women, thereby guaranteeing no risk to himself? If he chose a woman who was closer to “level” or whatever you want to call it, she might reciprocate, and Dan would actually have to put himself out there and be vulnerable. Just a possibility.
JuJu 36
Karl R,
I am with you on the standards, but how do you measure intelligence? What exactly would constitute being in the 0.1 percentile?
John 37
I am one of those people who tried to enlighten a friend who was overweight and not getting what she wanted in her life because of her looks. I persueded her to find an expensive Hollywood stylist and attempt to lose some weight so she could be perceived a more favorable light with men, and in her business. But the whole thing fell apart because I challenged her and told her “what people were saying.” It was horrible! I felt bad, and it kinda began to deteriorate our relationship. I began to realize I was always quietly judging her, and I was wrong, wrong, wrong to get involved! It was none of my business.
vino 38
My point exactly, John. Particularly on the internet.
Cute Redhead 39
Vino:
I see why you say I was off topic, but in my view not really — I was just approaching the topic from a broader perspective. Granted, I need to fill in the dots.
The OP’s overweight friend stands accused of being delusional about his prospects with the women he finds acceptable enough to date. Maybe “delusional” is merely an extreme of “not seeing oneself objectively.” I’m not delusional about myself, but I don’t necessarily see myself objectively. And feedback from the world can be confusing. Walk down the street and get comments from strange men. “Wow! I’m hot!” Go on a date with a critical guy who wants a trophy blonde. “Wow, I suck.”
So these internet dates for me have been the equivalent of posting a tubby pic on a “rate me” site — but with a positive response instead of a negative one. My point: The misperception of our “value” on the dating front can go in either direction.
Which brings us to the overweight friend’s seeming inflation of his value, which many have interpreted as being low self-esteem in disguise. I would agree with this from my own experience, which is why I asked the question: “Now what?” I had this one idea of myself (not attractive to men in a girly way, a buddy kinda gal) and now I don’t know what I am or how to behave or why these guys like me. It’s very new and uncomfortable! Makes me wanna put on some sweats and a baggy t-shirt and eat 94% fat-free microwave popcorn for dinner. The overweight guy would have to go through some kind of discomfort were he to accept the reality of his situation — that to have a relationship he might have to forge one with a warts-and-all kind of woman — and that the fantasy he has (probably compensatory) will not come to pass.
That said, like me, he might find that he’s been harder on himself than any prospective partner might be. He might discount a lot going things that he has going for him and that would be a real gift to a partner.
We all distort reality. That’s why it’s nice to find a loving partner, someone who regards us with honesty and compassion.
Selena 40
Cute Redhead-
You say you have gotten more attention from men when you wear a dress, high heels, & make-up. You wonder if you’ve underestimated your looks, you’ve always considered yourself a tomboy. I’d venture it has less to do with your actual looks, as it has to do with a change of attitude you project when you “gussie yourself up”. Perhaps you are more flitatious. Subtly more self-assured. And that is what the men you are meeting are responding to.
I know my attitude is different when I dress ‘nice’ from when I dress in sweats without makeup. I believe that’s true of alot of women.
Cute Redhead 41
Meant to say “connect the dots.” And ignore the typo in the penultimate paragraph of my previous post. Guess I’m not in that 0.1%. Thank god I have other charms.
Cathouse Teri 42
I’m with Karl R on the whole “suitability” issue. There is nothing wrong without asking a dating expert a dating question regarding a friend. Neither is there anything wrong with looking for the variety of views that can be drawn from said expert’s readers. Since Jeff is a man of God, so to speak, he may simply be following biblical instruction. “Without counsel, purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.” And yes, this venue certainly provides plenty of anonymity. I have no idea why this must even be addressed, because I thought it was a given. Maybe vino is a plant, set up to stir up strife that doesn’t exist.
So, back on topic I go. (Before vino brings out the Comment Police Badge and slaps on the cuffs for a-wandering!)
Dan’s issue is not his weight. There are plenty of overweight men who are attractive and have no trouble finding women. Dan’s issue is that he doesn’t want to do the personal work that is required to accomplish living his own life the way he wants to.
Jeff can’t help him with this. There is a tendency for a pastor to feel this is his job. To help people improve their quality of life. And to feel you have failed when you can’t. Then there is the seeking of counsel. And then, at some point, you have to just sit down with your own heart and your own head and realize that you probably knew the answer all along. Admit that it’s not your problem and this “little one” must make his own way. And work out his own salvation.
Karl R 43
JuJu,
In a real life situation, determining that a person’s intelligence is in the top 0.1% is generally an educated guess based on the evidence.
In this case, I learned that the lady in question had started college 2 or 3 years before the norm. Starting college 2 or 3 years early is pretty uncommon. I don’t have any stats, but I’d say it’s a safe guess that fewer than 1 in 1,000 people accomplishes this.
A previous girlfriend of mine had started college at the age of 14.
If you know someone’s IQ (I don’t even know my own), then the top 10% will start around a 125 IQ, the top 1% will start around a 140 IQ, and the top 0.1% is going to start around a 150 IQ … but this will vary with the standard deviation of the test.
Michael Ejercito 44
I am effortlessly thin, as are a lot of people that I know.
I guess it is the exercise.
JuJu 45
John,
“what people were saying”? Jeez! What concern of theirs is her weight?? One can’t help but wonder sometimes the magnitude of character deficiency we are surrounded by.
You bring up a great point, though (I sorta didn’t mention it myself earlier because I thought it was a given): the LW should -not- take it upon himself to “enlighten” his friend on his chances (and, really, at 35 the friend should be able to draw his own conclusions), only retire himself from the matchmaking.
Michael Ejercito,
“thin” isn’t exactly a good look for a man. (Something to deflate your arrogance a bit, hopefully.)
xpuff 46
@Michael Ejercito
After checking out your myspace I can see that you’re only 30, and you’re Asian. Frankly, I’m not surprised that it’s easy for you to be effortlessly thin. You have a genetic advantage, consider yourself lucky. There are people in this world who don’t have that same advantage. Don’t put them down because of that. They are not overweight because they are lazy or gluttons, their bodies are just different than yours. I have to exercise every day of the week to keep my body at a healthy weight. So does my sister. We have overweight parents. If I relax even a little bit, I start to gain. I’m not obese, but I very well could be if I decided that I just wanted to relax and enjoy my life for a year without daily trips to the gym. My sister has decided to become a personal trainer and kill two birds with one stone.
Eda 47
A very disheartening thing I’ve learned from this blog as well as internet dating is that we only want people to think of themselves the way we think of them. And when people have a higher opinion of themselves than we think they should, we are only too eager to put them in their place — you think you’re a size 0, well you’re really a size 6; you think you’re an 8 out of 10, well you’re really just a 5; you think you are curvy, well you are really just fat and you should say so. In effect, we have decided that our opinion of people is always true and accurate, but theirs is not. The question I would ask is that if we can’t accurately assess ourselves, why should we believe that we can “accurately” assess others? But even if we could assess others accurately, the really, really difficult question is when and why should we believe and value someone else’s opinion over our own?
JuJu 48
Eda,
I don’t remember if it was on this site or some other discussion board that I saw the words “criticism is really just our own insecurities redistributed.” Priceless comment, priceless.
But you reminded me of this one guy’s internet profile in which he said that he would no longer agree to meet women who don’t send him their pictures (this was some years ago when perhaps digital cameras weren’t as common), and that the self-description “trust me, you won’t be disappointed” would no longer be accepted. I remember I was just floored that someone had the self-esteem to describe themselves that way (I would think a guy would be completely justified in expecting a Linda Evangelista after a proclamation like that), and that he actually was disappointed. =)
Karl R,
neither formal education nor IQ scores are reliable measures of anything (and I am saying this as a person with a supposedly “genius” IQ). A lot of people are just narrowly gifted. I have encountered non-intellectual Ph.D.’s.
Evan Marc Katz 49
Eda brings up a really great point, although I’m not sure it’s disheartening. It all depends on whether you think ignorance is bliss.
Is it better to be like Dan, who is obese and socially awkward, but sad because he can’t find a model to date him?
Or would Dan be better off if he had a more realistic assessment of himself and had the ability to court a similar partner?
Thus it’s not really about whether you’re a “5″ or an “8″ but whether your self-appraisal is analagous to others’ opinions.
Self-esteem is useful to help us weather dark times and rejection.
But when self-esteem is the SOURCE of rejection – when our egos dictate that we can’t find a partner because we overestimate themselves – well, I think it might be healthier to see ourselves as others’ see us.
JuJu 50
Where do I write with a technical suggestion?
Anyway, please create a blog archive with article titles (as links) only. As it is, it takes too much navigation to find anything.
Thanks.
Anonymous 51
Vino,
Perhaps YOU should read the post again. It made mention of the fact that shallow Hal would text him 4 times a week. That pretty strongly implies that shallow Hal here is putting the burden on his friend to find him a woman. It became his friend’s business when he made his dating/love life his friend’s business, and thus the friend has every right to ask for advice… Also, you are assuming that this guy used his friend’s real name, which may/may not be the case. Either way, there are plenty of Dans in the world…
Karl R 52
Eda (#47),
I’d like to add to something that Evan said (#49)
Years ago I discovered that one person’s 2 is another person’s 9. That realization helped me transition from being a teenager with a low self-esteem to being an adult with a very healthy self-esteem. There will always be women who find me attractive … and some of those women will be attractive to me. Unless I’m interested in a woman, I generally don’t care whether she thinks I’m a 1 or a 10. If I am interested in a woman, her opinion becomes highly relevant.
This morning I was flirting with the woman next to me in my yoga class. At that moment, her assessment of me was “accurate”, and nobody else’s (including my own) was relevant. Tomorrow I’ll be going on a first date with another woman. At that time, her assessment of me will be “accurate”, and nobody else’s will matter.
This is a good reason to avoid dating women who are easily swayed by other people’s opinions.
JuJu (#48),
Your statement about intelligence is correct … up to a point.
Obviously, you’re trading completeness and accuracy for the sake of brevity … as was I. If this were a forum instead of a blog, I’d love to continue this tangent through private messages. (I’m sure it would be fascinating.) Under the circumstances, I don’t want to stray further off the general topic.
Eda 53
Based on what I read in Jeff’s letter, I don’t know if Dan has an unrealistic assessment of himself. Jeff doesn’t say that Dan thinks he is hot stuff with a killer personality. What I thought Jeff said was Dan thinks he can win a woman he finds attractive by dressing well, having a nice car and giving her gifts. Based on what a lot of the guys on this website believe, Dan isn’t too far from the mark. Perhaps he doesn’t need to lose weight, he just needs to make more money…a lot more money. Also, Jeff said that Dan is comfortable around people except the women he finds really attractive. Does that really make Dan some socially backward freak? If so, I guess I am a socially awkward freak too because when I’m around a really attractive guy, I get tongue-tied too. Fortunately or unfortunately, I don’t often have the opportunity to date men that I find really attractive. I only get to date men that are presentable….that’s my new term for nicely groomed, neatly dressed, normal looking guys for whom I have not one iota of physical attraction.
I also question the notion that going after people who you don’t find attractive but who are closer to your own attractiveness level will make you more successful. In my experience, that tactic doesn’t really guarantee success either. I remember doing an experiment that crushed my ego. Since I was having very little luck with getting the attention of guys I found attractive, I decided to contact guys that I didn’t find attractive and guess what? I didn’t get their attention either. So, if I’m going to be ignored, I might as well be ignored by an attractive man instead of an unattractive one!
Juju, I just recently had an experience where I agreed to meet a guy who didn’t have a photo who told me he was very good looking and had been highly sought after because of his appearance. So, I was really excited to meet him. When we met, I was so disappointed because he was not attractive to me at all. While I was polite and respectful on the date, I was so angry and I kept thinking on what universe would this man be described as very good looking. I kept wishing that he just told me the “truth” about his appearance. But that’s also when I began to wonder what right do I have to get angry with him for believing that he is attractive? What right do I have to feel that because I think he is unattractive he should think he is too? Maybe other women do in fact think he is very good looking. Are they right and I’m wrong? Are they wrong and I’m right? I think the answer is we are all right.
In my mind, self esteem is the sentiment that you like yourself and who you are…warts and all. So, I believe that self esteem is not only useful to weather dark times, it is essential if you want to live a vibrant, happy life on your own terms.
Evan Marc Katz 54
JuJu,
The articles archive is called SiteMap. Check out the link at the bottom.
Go crazy.
Evan
Cute Redhead 55
Well, one good thing to come out of this particular thread — at last we are discussing men’s physical attractiveness as an issue in dating, perhaps debunking the myth the “men are visual” (which implies that women are not). I notice that people are suggesting that this guy lose weight or “settle.” Much the same advice a woman in his situation would receive. No one is suggesting that the solution to his problem is to go out and make more money. I take this as a postive.
seduction 56
In a way you are right. Looking above our means does have the potential to be harmful and create a lopsided as you would say “matchmakers dilemma.” But if someone wants something bad enough, who are we to tell them they cannot achieve it. Now, more than likely, if Dan isn’t willing to change his behavior and the way he thinks, he will continue to have the same lack of success he has always had. But if he decides to look inwards and tackle those inner issues that may be causing social awkwardness, introversion and low self esteem-he may be able to change his mind and his body in so much he becomes attractive to those 10′s that he so desperately covets. However, I have a feeling that his desire for ‘superficial’ beauty is a fantasy that would die once it became a reality. It’s often very hard for a person like this to relate to a so called ’10′ because they very rarely share the same experiences in life. It’s not just the physical discrepancy that makes for unhealthy, lopsided and generally short lived relationships. It’s also lifestyle and commonality. When these don’t coincide, rarely does it work out!
Steve 57
Cute Redhead Jun 29th 2008 at 07:46 am 55
Well, one good thing to come out of this particular thread at last we are discussing men’s physical attractiveness as an issue in dating, perhaps debunking the myth the men are visual (which implies that women are not). I notice that people are suggesting that this guy lose weight or settle.
I was one of those people. I do think men are primarily visual and women are primarily attracted by who the man is. However, I think both sexes are motivated by both of these forces. The difference, IMHO is the degree and which force moves which sex more…..and….first.
Yes, women do notice and appreciate good looking men.
Steve 58
m;
Post #18. Thanks a TON for the stats. I’m actually quite pumped up about making it a goal to beat those stats. I’m that convinced I have found the right system for maintenance. FWIW, I’ve had a “slow metabolism” all of my life. Actually, I like to think of it as a “fuel efficient” metabolism
. Women who I tower over, even non-athletic women, eat more than I do. I don’t have the “man card” in regards to weight control.
Steve 59
@Selena, post #15. I just got back from my first trip to NYC as an adult this weekend. I can’t imagine living in NYC as being a hindrance to getting unsingle. I saw more beautiful there this weekend just getting around then I have in the last 3 months.
@cute redhead, post #19.
I’m not a Ken Doll or a 10, but I think I have the same issues you do although to a lesser degree. If it wasn’t for gay men and a few good close, married female friends who could be honest with me I could have gone through my life believing that my appearance didn’t inspire anyone. I agree with you about how much a change of clothing, hairstyles, and make up can do. I’m still amazed by that. FWIW, once I get past the initial attraction thing I find the company of “tom boys” very enjoyable. With regular women and “girly girls” part of me feels like I have to be an entertainment committee and a Ken Doll.
Steve 60
@John, post #37
Your experience reflects why I believe everyone should fight their emotional reflexes and make people giving them constructive criticism feel welcome. Sometimes people need to be told, but it is thankless job most people will avoid. When someone takes the risk of experiencing what you did, they should be thanked.
@Karl, post #31
My quote was out of context. I don’t believe that Jeff shouldn’t help Dan, but that he should help Dan by making sure that a reality check sinks in.
@xpuff, #20
Thanks for the stats! I think I will make my 1 year and 5 year goals. My system has already prevented me from backsliding several times and it has done so painlessly.
@vino
Jeff didn’t write that he thought Dan was shallow, only that he was shallow in regards to how he approached dating women. Obviously he sees Dan’s other, good, qualities or he wouldn’t be friends with him. I think Jeff is one hell of a friend. Very few people would do as much for a friend as Jeff is. This is a dating advice site, so I think Jeff is on topic. He is seeking dating advice for his friend.
xpuff 61
@Steve
I hope you do! What is your system, by the way? I’m always looking for ways to help make healthier eating a long-term habit and would like to check it out.
Steve 62
@xpuff, post #61
There is an ongoing study called “The National Weight Control Registry”. The participants are volunteers who have lost a significant amount of weight and who have kept it off for at least year.
http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm
The people who run the study have found that the volunteers who maintain their weight loss do several things in common. They all frequently monitor their weight, they monitor their food intake, and they exercise regularly.
I personally weigh myself every morning. I then enter my weight into a web site that computes a 5 day weighted average of my scale weight and computes a trend line on a graph that “data smoothes out” fluctuations due to water weight shifts. This gives me a steady weight reading. The trend line gives me an early warning I can use to fix problems while they are small. Which I have done several times……ahem! I’m 5 months into maintenance and this system has kept me from backsliding at least 4 times. It doesn’t sound like an appetizing way to live, but I swear it is [b]painless[/b] and even satisfying.
xpuff 63
@Steve
Cool, I’ve heard of that. I keep trying to follow the things recommended by the registry, the weighing myself daily, writing down what I eat, I just can’t keep it up…I’m working on it though. Exercise is the easy part for me, that’s no problem. If only all it took to be thin was exercise, hah!
Cute Redhead 64
With all due respect, Steve — I am a woman. I talk to all of my woman friends about their dating/romantic lives. Men’s looks matter to us! The way a guy dresses and moves and talks and how he takes care of himself are what attracts us gals initially — same as with you guys. Maybe in the old days, before women could support themselves for various societal reasons that we don’t need to get into (again), a woman might opt for a provider over a looker. Nowadays we of the dating/mating generation want someone who’s gonna do it for us. And I don’t mean paying the bills and taking out the trash. Though a well-rounded…skill set is also appreciated.
Steve 65
@Cute Redhead, post #64. I believe I posted a message earlier basically saying the same thing you did,
Steve 66
@xpuff, post #64
I had resistance when I started doing those things. I never figured out why. The logging was painless and took less than 10 min a day. Could imagine how rich you could become marketing a book that promised people they could lose weight by doing nothing other than taking notes for 6 min a day?
Lance 67
Dan might have a little success learning pickup without re-wiring his head or slimming down, but ultimately he won’t come anywhere close to his potential (or come close to getting 9s and 10s). A lot of the PU guys call this having a “thin veneer of game” painted over an otherwise lousy personality and physical presentation.
My first piece of advice is that he get his ass to the gym, ASAP, and lose the weight. I recommend fitness for everyone, not just guys that are 75 lbs over. Being fit and living healthy lifestyle gives you a better quality of life and a longer one at that. Dan’s first concern should be whether he’s going to have a heart attack before 40, not if he can score with hot chicks. Oh yeah, if you work out regular you look better too, don’t want to forget that part.
@Mike: Want to agree with your comment in #28, a kick in the ass is the best way to go!
@Seduction: great point in #58. Even if he could attract a 10, he’d never keep her! Her value would plummet just walking down the street with guy.
Eda 68
I lost 80 lbs and I have kept if off for two years. And I think another very important way to maintain a healthy, active lifestyle is to hang around with people who maintain a healthy and active lifestyle. When your friends exercise and watch what they eat, your social activities are less likely to be centered around food and eating.
The other thing I find helpful is to not limit being active to the gym. Choose the active route every chance you get…walk to work, take the stairs, etc. All these things add up and really make a difference.
Steve, do you really feel that in today’s society, an overweight woman needs to be told that she would be more successful with men if she lost weight? You think that one more disapproving voice added to the voice of the magazines, the voice of tv, and the loudest, most disapproving voice of all — her own voice — is really helpful? When I was overweight, there was not one day that went by in which I didn’t loathe myself and my body…not one day went by in which I didn’t think all would be right if I could just lose weight. I would not have welcomed a friend adding to my misery by telling me I would be so much more valuable in this world if I were smaller. I would not have wanted one more person to telI me that I just wasn’t good enough. So, I don’t think telling a friend you’re fat and you need to lose weight is tough love or a necessary, life saving intervention. I think it’s just plain mean.
hunter 69
post # 64
Of course mens looks matter to women. Women talk about their relationships (they tell everyone) like men share stories about the latest automobile/hot rod/motorcycle they bought.
vino 70
#51,
Um, last time I checked, “Dan” asked “Jeff” to find him a chick. He did not, however, ask “Jeff” to publish “Jeff’s” opinion he’s fat and unreasonable to the entire internet. They are 2 separate issues, not related at all. It is “Jeff’s” fault he lacks the stones to tell “Dan” to shut up & find his own chick. But nooooo, he couldn’t do that. He has to tell the whole internet he thinks “Dan” is fat, balding and unreasonable. If I had great friends like “Jeff” I’d get my fanny into therapy pronto, right after decking “Jeff.”
BTW, I thought preachers were supposed to keep confidences, akin to a doctor, or attorney. Some preacher “Jeff” is. Glad I haven’t told him my sins… The lack of discretion is shocking.
Notice “Dan” didn’t invite the internet into his life, but “Jeff” did. Additionally, “Jeff” provided sufficient detail about their church group, demographics, etc, that If I were in the community (and I hope this letter wasn’t posted elsewhere, like yahoo, etc), it wouldn’t too difficult to deduce the subject of the letter.
“It became his friends business when he made his dating/love life his friends business, and thus the friend has every right to ask for advice”
– I disagree. It didn’t become the internet’s business. It’s between the 2. Nothing more. If “Jeff” has so little discretion, he should be roundly shunned.
“His senior pastor has had counseling sessions with him to no avail.” – “Jeff”
- How discrete. Love to confess my trouble there.
#60,
I’m seeking dating advice for my friend Danielle. we take part in many church activities where I am the preacher and organizer. She does lots of activities with my wife and I. She’s at least 75 pounds overweight, has a moustahce, has the personality of a potted fern, and has horrible body odor. How do I make her see she probably won’t get the athletic, successful, good-looking investment banker?
If you’re Danielle, I’m sure you’d love that manner of ‘helping.’
#64,
“Nowadays we of the dating/mating generation want someone who’s gonna do it for us. And I don’t mean paying the bills and taking out the trash.”
- Ya, that’s why women NEVER care about how much $ a guy makes….*gag*
The ‘we’ referenced is the huge minority.
See other threads for basis of sarcasm.
Hot Alpha Female 71
I think when it comes to dating and finding a partner that you really need to find someone who is more or less your equal in many respects.
I don’t mean to say that they are exactly the same person as you. But in terms of values, beliefs and life ambitions. Therefore i see your point when you talk about the level of attractiveness.
Because here is the thing. If you are some FAT SLOB who can’t be bothered to get off their butt to work out and dont really respect your body. Then how in the world do you expect to attract some gorgeous babe, who does respect her body, loves going to the gym and staying active.
I would say that if you want to attract those kind of people, then you have to do your best to be a PERSON that they would date.
Now i will say, that just because someone isn’t that attracttive .. say a man .. does not mean that he can’t get a hot sexy ass girlfriend. This is also very possible too. But there is a little work involved too
Hot Alpha Female
http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
Steve 72
@Eda, post #68;
First congratulations on your 80lb weight loss. I lost 48lbs over the course of last year and I know that it is not an easy thing to do.
Second, I don’t understand your comment as “Dan” the overweight friend is not a woman.
Third, you are mistaken if you think, even on an unconscious level, that you or women in general own the psychological pain of being overweight in today’s society.
Let me tell you, you don’t.
As I wrote earlier, I have always had a “fuel efficient” metabolism. To stay slim I have had to eat less than many (small) women I know. I have been heavy several times, including during my formative years. I have received the mean comments. I have been ignored. I have had people I’ve been romantically interested in fall for who I am, but not sign up for anything more than friends because of my appearance.
Yes, heavy people know they are heavy. As a formerly heavy person I know that people can know they have a problem, find it too painful to face, and push the awareness out of their minds on a daily basis. The problem is those days add up and all of us only have so many days in our lives.
Jeff’s friend Dan knows he is heavy and he probably knows he has other problems as well. If he is like most other human beings he is distracting himself from his awareness of it as an issue. I’m not advocating that Jeff insult Dan, but that he makes sure that Dan hears …..once….. that he has a limited amount of time to enjoy life…..and that if he doesn’t want to miss out he has to start doing things about his problems, including his weight……now.
Steve 73
@Lance, post #67 reminds of the adage that the best way to begin attracting someone good into your life is to get your own life in order, for yourself, first. That and the other adage, that people tend to attract what they are. People with stuff happening in their lives tend to find/attract people with stuff happening in their lives.
Steve 74
Jeff, if you are still reading the comments, I think Selena’s post #15 has the second best advice given so far. Once Dan is convinced he has to move under his own power having him read this blog and other related dating books/materials will give him the reality checks that he needs.
Eda 75
Congrats on your weight loss too, Steve.
In my post I was actually referring to your response to John, the man who told his overweight female friend that she needed to lose weight. That’s why I said who needs to tell an overweight woman that she should lose weight. You responded by indicating that people should invite more constructive feedback from others.
I agree that women don’t own the pain of being overweight, but I think the penalties for women for being overweight are greater than they are for men.
hunter 76
I was told, that a woman loses her figure, intentionally, simply because, she gets tired of dealing with all the different personalities she attracts.
downtowngal 77
I think the real issue is that Dan is afraid of being in a relationship so he places roadblocks. He’s done it for so long that he’s settled into his comfort zone. It’s not a matter of facing up to being a “3″ or anything…it’s having unrealistic expectations of what a relationship truly is. As a result he’ll never be happy because he’s not giving himself a chance.
I’ve seen overweight people be in happy relationships with skinny folks of either gender…this shouldn’t be a discussionn of 3′s trying to date 8+’s, it should be one about Dan getting his act together.
elaine benes 78
@ evan -
maybe the dingo ate your baby.
vlh 79
It sounds like Dan suffers from self-esteem issues. My 2nd cousin always dated (and twice married) women who treated him very badly. He also struggled with his weight since childhood. Then, a couple of years ago, he had gastric bypass surgery. His marriage ended, but he got full custody of his kids and has since started seeing a woman who treats him very well. He also gets lots of positive feedback and attention from the ladies where he works, and I’m sure this has done wonders for his self-confidence. My cousin was always the nicest guy in the world, with maybe a little too much faith in the goodness of others. He was down on himself b/c of his weight so he attracted the kinds of women that deep down he felt he deserved (i.e. women who treated him badly, abandoned him, were abusive to his kids, etc). Losing the weight resolved a lot of his self-esteem issues, and I think that would really work for Dan as well. Dan is clearly going after women he already knows deep down will reject him. Why? Because deep down he feels he deserves to be rejected!!! Get Dan to deal with his obesity, and work on himself a bit. This would be so much better than just railing at him to pick uglier women. Sorry to be blunt, but I think this isn’t about Dan’s market value in the dating world, it’s about his psychological issues. And as Karl pointed out: it depends which market he’s in. There isn’t just one monolithic dating market (unless you mean the online market). There are many “niche” markets in the “real world” (i.e. offline) where Dan could realistically be more competitive. Encourage him to take a yoga class, and/or join a gym that is coed but has a higher ratio of female members to male.
downtowngal 80
vlh I totally agree. But I don’t think the issue is weight in of itself; in your cousin’s case, losing weight helped him realize he person inside aned boosted his self-esteem, which is great.
If Dan loses weight it may not have the same result, but I agree that by working on himself in a way that would boost his esteem levels (new sport, hobby, training for a running event for charity, or whatever) would be a big plus.
I knew this guy once who always complained the women he kept meeting were mean and bitchy, and he was such a great guy w a heart of gold. Truth be told, he always went after the mean girls, then broke up w them after 6 months, but whenever he met someone who was a better match for him, he’d end up sabotaging the relationship and getting dumped.
Joe 81
Just reading old posts here…
Karl R, if you’ve never had your IQ tested, how can you know you are in the top 1% in intelligence? Are you using some other kind of measure, or are you from Lake Wobegon?
Karl R 82
Joe asked: (#81)
“Karl R, if you’ve never had your IQ tested, how can you know you are in the top 1% in intelligence?”
It’s where I routinely tested on other standardized tests.