Nice Guys Finish First

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Apr10

09:44 pm on Apr 10th 2007 Evan Marc Katz

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Just got off the phone with a client and became inspired to write this piece.

My client is a nice guy. Mid 30’s, intelligent, successful, and serious about finding a relationship.

We’ve been working together for a few months and he’s been lamenting his lack of success.

I reiterate old themes, try to put things into a much-needed perspective.

I remind him that it’s a competitive space, that it’s a buyer’s market for women.

He tells me that he doesn’t want to have to lower his standards for online dating. The same women he can get in "real life" don’t respond to him online.

I remind him that at a party, she doesn’t have a hundred men lined up to talk to her. On Match.com, she does. The strength of online dating lies in its ability to give us access to total strangers; the downside is how difficult it is to keep their attention.

We go over an email that he wrote to a woman. She didn’t write back. He wonders if he did anything wrong. I assure him that he did not.

He muses that it must be nice to have hundreds of people writing to you. I let him know that it’s a burden for these women – and that lots of great guys get lost in the shuffle.

He reminds me that each letter he writes that goes unanswered is a blow to the ego. I told him it shouldn’t be. You can’t take online dating personally. Just like a baseball player fails 7 times out of 10, an online dater is going to get a lot more rejection than acceptance. Don’t let the process affect you; just be grateful for the potential that it presents.

Finally, we get to talking about the woman he’s writing to. They spoke on the phone last night for the first time. The conversation lasted for an hour and change. She asked for his number at the end. Mission accomplished. But my client wants more pointers.

"What do I do next?"

"Email her and tell her you had a lot of fun last night. Mention something specific from your conversation. Ask her a question or two. And find out the next time she’s available to talk on the phone."

I’m a big believer in the phone.

"But what about creating mystery? I don’t want her to think I’m too interested."

An old wives’ tale, I assure him. But he’s citing references

"I read in David DeAngelo that nice guys finish last. And "The Rules" talks about waiting a week in between conversations to build up anticipation and establish that you’re busy."

I’m paraphrasing, of course. But the gist of it is that all of the experts out there have people believing that the way to forge a happy relationship is by playing games.

I wrote about this extensively in a chapter from "Why You’re Still Single" creatively called "Don’t Play Games", but to reiterate: NOTHING GOOD COMES OUT OF PLAYING GAMES.

Playing games attracts people who plays games. It repels people who don’t want to play games. And everything that you do that is in the least bit calculating is pushing you farther and father from what you claim to want – an authentic relationship where you can be loved and accepted for who you are.

Nice guys don’t finish last. Nice guys without any balls finish last….

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50 Comments »Filed Under Favorites, Sex & Relationship Advice

50 Responses to “Nice Guys Finish First”

Dan Apr 11th 2007 at 02:18 am 1

Great points Evan.

And love the quote:
“Nice guys don’t finish last. Nice guys without any balls finish last.” That’s SO true.

The myth that women are attracted to “bad boys” is due to the fact that “bad boys” tend to be (or at least appear to be) confident.

And people notice women being with these confident men and thing it’s the part about treating women badly that attracts women. Not so (well, not in most cases anyway).

People notice that stark contrast, but aren’t so quick to notice the confident nice guys. Women don’t like to be treated badly, and they’re not looking for a jerk to treat them badly.

While I’m not criticizing the seduction community, it’s important to understand where they fit in. If you’re looking for one night stands, looking to pick up that hot girl just for tonight, looking to be a pickup artist – that stuff will do wonders. But you can’t beat that quiet inner confidence which doesn’t compare to the fake stuff.

In the end, she’ll meet the real you. And starting off by playing games and pretending to be something you’re not will get you single over and over again.

Have an awesome day!
Dan
Rachelle Apr 11th 2007 at 05:16 am 2

So well said!
Anonymous Apr 11th 2007 at 03:51 pm 3

Amen.
moonsical May 4th 2007 at 02:47 am 4

Agree w/Evan.

Since Evan said my input was valuable (sigh!) I’ll try and reconstruct my thoughts of yesterday, when my old-fashioned Netscape 7 just wouldn’t cooperate with google blog land.

I’ve dated the so-called, “bad boy,” and it is GREAT to be with someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY WANT and TAKES ACTION.

I’ve thought about this “issue” lately, and decided there may be something rather primal going on. Women, being actually smaller, physically less strong, and perhaps more vulnerable when, “with child,” perhaps look for some show of action, confidence, bravado, in a mate. Protection is a resource. Not to mention the allure of true, active partnering.

The behavior this “nice guy” is exhibiting…having to get an opinion before making each move…wowee. I have seen this before and what I have seen is this behavior attracting a very controlling mate, who WILL make all his decisions for him. Then he marries her, then she divorces him a short time later.

It’s not really all that “nice” to put the burden of proof, or responsibility for your happiness, on the other person. If you like someone, move on it.

Go for BOLD, with ethical behavior. Women are dying for this; for men who know what they want, and STEP UP! Even if you are rebuffed, you’ll know the truth, and can course-correct and carry on.

Good luck! We’re waiting!
Free online dating relationships articles » What Makes a Man Attractive to Women? Aug 1st 2007 at 06:25 pm 5

[...] just say that if I could bottle and sell this, I’d be one rich [...]
Alison Aug 15th 2007 at 08:52 am 6

Evan,

You are so right on about this. I can feel the fear and insecurity radiating from this man – who keeps putting up excuses and is avoiding just taking a step.

That alone can turn a woman off. Some swagger, some honesty, some caring, and some basic grooming….the recipe isn’t really so complex. Everyone is looking for a formula and step by step guides-

Some daring and responsibility? Some raders may be amused by my commentary: Why Women Don’t Want Nice Men- meant to be “When Nice is not so Nice” http://www.amherstbulletin.com/story/id/27706/
downtowngal Oct 11th 2007 at 02:03 am 7

Great advice and so true! I’d like to add that what attracts me to a guy is somone who knows what he wants and goes after it when pursuing a relationship. If he’s into you he shows it – this doesn’t mean incessant stalking or pursuing after you’ve said ‘no’, this means making the effort to want to get to know you if there’s a click. Too many guys out there don’t make the effort because they’re afraid of failure, and many women view this as a turn-off.

Evan, just wondering, if your client had a connection with someone online, why did you advise him to continue emailing/calling instead of just setting up a date? Because that’s the only way to know if you click, otherwise you just set up your expectations. If I meet someone online, we have a nice chat and he doesn’t suggest meeting I assume he’s either not interested, not really single or just playing games. This is because – in my experience – if the guy is really serious about wanting to be in a relationship he’ll make the effort, even if we meet online.
LNY Oct 13th 2007 at 12:13 am 8

All of Evan’s reply iare so humorous I am beginning to prefer reading them to dating!
LNY Oct 13th 2007 at 12:14 am 9

All of Evan’s reply are so humorous I am beginning to prefer reading them to dating!
Dandh Nov 25th 2007 at 02:28 pm 10

Nice guys are commonly mislabeled. What is often labeled as a nice-guy is really someone who is just insecure and needy, a completely different type of man. Just like there is a difference between a “bad boy” -who likes to date and is upfront about it, and a “player” that misleads to score with as many women as possible. A nice guy is the one that calls when he says he will but doesn’t call you ten times a day. The needy guy is the one that will call you ten times a day and apologize profusely for missing your call or not responding immediately to your text.
Alison Nov 26th 2007 at 05:57 am 11

See Why Women Don’t want ‘Nice’ Men: http://www.amherstbulletin.com/story/id/27706/
Markus Nov 26th 2007 at 07:10 am 12

For the women criticizing Evan’s client: he is not calling her and deferring to her opinion on everything or, from what I could tell, appearing needy to her. He is consulting with Evan because he wants to do what it takes to land a relationship. This is invivsible to the girl in question. He appears needy to you because you are reading his dialogue with Evan. In fact, he says that he was considering waiting a little longer before calling so as NOT to appear needy. Now, I’m not going to tell you that you all (or most of you) want to date jerks but it’s apparent that a lot of women want to date men who couldn’t care less. They’ll then complain about this too.
downtowngal Nov 27th 2007 at 06:49 pm 13

Continuing to call/email but not setting up a date comes across as stringing someone along rather than not trying to appear needy. If a guy did that to me I’d think a big “wtf” and move on.
hunter Dec 5th 2007 at 06:57 pm 14

…the fact is,,,…women have been known to stay, with bad boys, a long, long time, before they come to their senses……by then mostly, they are in their 40’s…….
Alison Dec 6th 2007 at 05:51 am 15

The question that arises is WHY do so many women (and maybe men) stay with the ‘wrong’ person to begin with?

Bad- meaning care-less? inattentive? criminal? Maybe women also have a ‘fix it’ complex. We think we are supposed to be able to love ‘uber ales’ and make it all good as a mother ’should’. We confusing mothering and loving unconditionally with choosing and partnering to have our needs met too.

Society supports it- as do media and films. (Look at all those enticing bad boys that soften and come around in the end long as the woman is beautiful enough, supportive enough, available, wating)

None are perfect- so how much imperfection does one stick with?

Many of these questions get answered differently after 40 when priorities, energy, and bodies change.
hunter Dec 6th 2007 at 05:15 pm 16

young men(mostly nice guys) have been known to gather around, the mens county jail(bad boys), during visting hours, just to get a glimpse of the visitors who are mostly, hot babes/hunkettes…..yes,,,,
hunter Dec 6th 2007 at 05:20 pm 17

to allison,

why do people stay with the wrong person? ‘Cause they get bonded. Did you ever hear of the expression, “Having sex between two people, is like applying super glue at the short hair site?”
That Single Guy Dec 9th 2007 at 09:37 am 18

All women say they want a nice guy. BUT, what they say and what they actually go after are two different things. Notice all the girls who date complete assholes. I’m not saying be a nice guy isn’t worthwhile, but to be honest, very few girls want just truly nice guys.
downtowngal Dec 9th 2007 at 06:45 pm 19

TSG, I think you’re right, but for those girls it’s a maturity thing. When they get to a point when they start realizing what makes for a good LTR partner, the assholes don’t stack up. especially when they start dating someone who actually treats them well.

Women are attracted to ‘bad boys’ because of their confidence. I think it’s the same reason why nice guys date bitchy women. But at the end of the day it’s about confidence for both sexes. What attracts me about a guy is how well he treats me and how comfortable he is in his own skin, enough to pursue me and show his affection, not play games or act rude.
hunter Dec 10th 2007 at 09:44 pm 20

to downtowngal,

we are attracted to the bitchy girl, but, as soon as reality hits, we say, wait a minute….it is either that, or, we just plain get tired of the assertiveness, nagging, etc…
KC Dec 11th 2007 at 09:37 am 21

Confidence is the key either way…..but it has to be balanced and not overbearing…..but lacking any at all just makes you part of the crowd..
downtowngal Dec 12th 2007 at 04:08 am 22

hunter, it’s the same thing with girls and ‘bad boys’ – we get attracted to these edgy guys because we find them sexy, only to go through the drama, games, etc. these relationships never last.

It’s the initial attraction that causes people to overlook someone who would be a better relationship partner. As for guys and bitchy girls, I’ve seen these girls in action, many would step over their friends to get a guy’s attraction. And the same guys go for these girls again and again and again…
downtowngal Dec 12th 2007 at 04:09 am 23

…and then they complain ‘why do I keep meeing psycho’s – are there any good women out there’??
hunter Dec 12th 2007 at 07:04 pm 24

to downtowngal,

too bad some women keep these edgy guys, mostly, until thier late 40’s….
downtowngal Dec 12th 2007 at 07:17 pm 25

hunter, believe me, the edgy guys don’t last that long. most women grow out of them by the time their 30
hunter Dec 19th 2007 at 05:26 pm 26

to downtowngal,

by the time their 30, or after their 30th anniversary?….hhmmmmhh
Gonzo Jan 1st 2008 at 01:41 pm 27

Now I understand…it was all a waste of time in the First Place.
Guess I’ll start studying for the Ministry, now.
Jessica Jan 11th 2008 at 02:30 am 28

I also think that some women get validation in believing they are “really sexy” if a bad boy choses them. Some may feel the nice guy is just being nice if he compliments her, digs her, or wants her body. Or that maybe his standards are somehow not as high as a guy who is perceived to be able to get any chick he wants. So, theoretically, if he choses you (the bad guy), then you must be pretty hot, right? If a woman has self esteem or confidence issues, we might not believe the good guy that we are great or hot or sexy or whatever or think we don’t deserve the compliments and attention of a nice guy or a nice guy with balls. So we often end up with one extreme or the other – like so many people do if they are still coming to terms with things and who they are. The other end of the fence being the TOO NICE guy that the article from the woman at Amherst refers to.
hunter Jan 16th 2008 at 06:05 pm 29

to jessica,

..That is why all single who want to date regularly, should keep a friends only woman at his side…..by doing this men attract other women, because, women will then say, “if he is good enough for her, he is good enough for me”…..
Michael Ejercito Feb 16th 2008 at 03:24 pm 30

I wonder what online dating is like for women.

Do they get more rejections than acceptances?
Nyla Jun 3rd 2008 at 12:46 am 31

DT Girl, I agree with all you have stated. I am not 40 yet, and have come to the realization that what I am looking for is a good guy with some spine. It’s hard like hell, but I do get myself out of a situation with a bad boy as soon as I find out he is one. As soon as I get that notion no matter how attracted I am to him, I will pull away.
I am in my late twenties, but even though armed with this knowledge, I feel like I will hit 40 soon and still be single. Datings a bitch.
Tom Lee Jun 26th 2008 at 01:03 am 32

I am a nice guy, but very kinky indeed .
m Jun 26th 2008 at 09:40 pm 33

You know, reading this over again in the context of the new post, there’s something here that amuses me.

If this guy feels he can do better “in real life”, why is he on line at all (if he is, as he says, looking for a committed relationship)??

Is he one of these, like Dan, that’s a personality/looks “3″, looking for a looks “9/10″ (and not giving a hoot about her personality), thinking he can “do better”?

*smh*
starthrower68 Jun 27th 2008 at 06:22 pm 34

I saw an article on a non-secular site that had a section for singles. The article was about women wanting to be pursued. Women want to be courted, pursued, and won. I believe that most (and there are always exceptions, of course) self-respecting women do not want to chase after a guy.
ariel Jul 18th 2008 at 08:06 am 35

that’s so true! a decent girl don’t play games. games are only for players, not for someone who looking for a real relationship. listen guys, if u are following those dating rules, no decent girl gonna stick.

to starthrower68, chasing means calling, ask her outon a date, pay attention on what she likes, etc etc. not playing games in any circumstances.
JerseyGirl Jul 20th 2008 at 05:37 am 36

I agree with Evan here. I here so many guys say that women like jerks and it’s very frustrating. Because the men that say that are already thinking the worst about women. So how could they ever expect a good woman to want to be with them. We don’t want jerks or bad boys. We want a truly “good man” who isn’t a push over and has his own mind.
SpunkyGirl Oct 10th 2008 at 03:53 pm 37

Seriously people, it’s guys with CONFIDENCE who gets the girls- bad or nice…it’s all about the confidence factor! You ask a girl out, you are more likely to go out w/ a girl. Nice guys with NO balls are too insecure and shy to ask a girl out. Let’s get this all straight… girls like a confident guy – bad or nice. Therefore, if you are nice, more likely you will be in the relationship longer. Evan, great points on your articled. Loved every bit!
mrs stone Jan 6th 2009 at 05:42 am 38

i think that although nice guys do finish first, the obsatcles that they have to face because of their nice heartedness are great much greater than that of say bad boys. take my husband as an example… the nicest man you woulod ever meet, but because of past experiences with women his heart when i met him was so guarded and today we still face issues because of it… i think that all guys start out as nice guys, but because of the pressures of the world nice guys in many cases turn nasty. the same goes for women!

mrs stone´s last blog post…Having sex in the clubs toilet while drunk
mrs stone Jan 6th 2009 at 05:46 am 39

i also believe that we women are sometimes blinded by our own needs we forget to stop and appreciate our nice guys! i have that problem sometimes, not problems with appreciating my man, i do appreciate everything he does for me, i have a problem with showing him that appreciation and love! its all a matter of reminding ourselves everyday to show the appreciation we feel! good luck in the future !

mrs stone´s last blog post…Having sex in the clubs toilet while drunk
Steve Apr 17th 2009 at 08:35 am 40

I agree with many of you who have said that women are attracted to a confident man (or the perception of such) that seems to emanate more from men who are typically regarded as “bad boys.” This is usually a first impression that usually runs its course when she realizes that the guy is a jerk. In the process, so called “nice” guys may be discouraged and throw in the towel in regards to being a “gentleman.” Nice guys aren’t necessarily “indecisive” or “lack confidence” by the way. You can be respectful and courteous and not be a jellyfish. Again, it is a deception that bad boys use to win the affections of the lady over his rival who is straight laced. Usually when women reach a certain age, they know what they want and through a series of hard knocks have learned to see past the initial impressions that bad boys give as confident, exciting men since they know the consequences down the road of entering into a relationship with them. That is why younger guys nowadays seem to be pursuing women in their 30’s more than ever – women that age will recognize that being a nice guy doesn’t mean he’s a wimp and that after its all said and done, nice guys make better relationships. It is the immaturity of young women who fall into the trap of dating jerks – I saw it time and time again in high school and college. However, when they matured, perhaps after a failed relationship and/or marriage or two, they married a guy that they wouldn’t give the time of day a few years before. Men do the same thing – they are excited by “bitches” or women who play hard to get only to realize after winning their affections that they got all fluff and little substance. Its probably been like this since the dawn of time in some form or another. Women like confident men – so nice guys – you need to show that side of you too.
Melissa Apr 21st 2009 at 11:36 am 41

This is so so true.

Most girls looking for a relationship CAN’T STAND when guys try to play it cool. Nothing is more of a turn off than a guy who acts like he’s too “busy” or “too good”. If she’s into you, she loves when your humble, sweet and vulnerable. And a nice girl won’t take these qualities for granted and walk all over you.

Girls BRAG to their girlfriends about meeting a guy who lavished them with ATTENTION. “He calls me everyday and says the nicest things”. These are the things girls can’t wait to tell their girlfriends. And Evan is right… we like CONFIDENCE and need to know that a guy is not going to let us walk all over them, but for most of my friends… the more attention a guy shows, the more points he gets.

If a girl is acting “wishy-washy” it has nothing to do with how nice you are and everything to do with the fact that she’s just not that interested, YET. If she’s still talking to you… she’s mildly interested and trying to figure it out.

Don’t buy into this bullcrap about playing it cool. Look at it this way… most guys out there are busy TRYING TO PLAY IT COOL, so you’ll stand out if you lavish her with attention. And if she starts taking you for granted, gently put her in her place for it and let her know you won’t tolerate that. If she likes you, she’ll respect you more and snap out of it. If she continues to treat you bad, she’s not the right girl for you anyways, so move on.
starthrower68 Apr 22nd 2009 at 04:12 am 42

The last two posts couldn’t have said it better. A happy medium.
match sites Jun 2nd 2009 at 04:23 pm 43

All women say they want a nice guy. BUT, what they say and what they actually go after are two different things. Notice all the girls who date complete assholes. I’m not saying be a nice guy isn’t worthwhile, but to be honest, very few girls want just truly nice guys.
starthrower68 Jun 2nd 2009 at 07:44 pm 44

Match, what part of “nice but confident” did you not get?
Mark Jul 8th 2009 at 10:37 am 45

I find this hard to believe, Reality is very different, I have to believe my own eyes and ears. The jerks have women lined up to see them, then complain about how they are treated by the same jerks. Of course they get right back in line for more of the same. The next woman that I date will not see quiet the nice guy I have been up to now. I agree with match sites, women talk “nice guy”, but when it comes to do…total differently story.
starthrower68 Jul 8th 2009 at 01:52 pm 46

Wow, it’s good to know that ALL women are being lumped into the same “doesn’t want a nice guy” catergory. If that’s the maturity level with which you view the world, then perhaps that’s why you’re not attracting the right women.
Karl R Jul 8th 2009 at 02:11 pm 47

Mark,
You’re right … up to a point.

Women say they want a “nice guy”. Women actually go for a “confident guy”. The two are not mutually exclusive.

If you’re a confident, nice guy, women will be interested in you. If you’re a confident jerk, women will be interested in you.

If you lack self-confidence, you’re out of luck. Becoming a jerk won’t help you. Learning to project confidence might.

And the quality women tend to ditch the jerks as soon as they recognize what they actually are.
Mark Jul 9th 2009 at 05:14 am 48

I have to believe what I actually witness, the empirical evidence. I mean after years of trying the “nice guy” approach, I have finally “seen the light”
Karl R Jul 9th 2009 at 08:51 am 49

Mark said:
“I have to believe what I actually witness, the empirical evidence. I mean after years of trying the ‘nice guy’ approach, I have finally ’seen the light’ “

Your experiences aren’t empirical evidence. They’re anecdotal evidence.

Would you care to clarify what proactive steps you take to let a woman know that you’re attracted to her … and find out if she’s attracted to you?

When I was in my late teens and early twenties, I felt the same way you did. As I’ve gotten older (and more knowledgeable), I’ve realized that I was too cautious when pursuing relationships. That caution wasn’t a product of being “nice” (though I rationalized it that way). It was caused by my fear of getting hurt.

A lot of nice guys wait until they become friends with a woman before asking her out. Is there anything inherently “not nice” about asking a woman out when you barely know her? It’s a lot more effective than waiting.

If you’re doing nice things for a woman (buying her flowers, helping her move) with the ulterior motive of getting her to like you, does that make you a “nice guy”? I would say a nicer guy would be the one who helps people without the ulterior motive.

And finally, you said, “after years of trying the ‘nice guy’ approach, I have finally ’seen the light’ “

If being “nice” was just an “approach” that you tried and are subsequently abandoning, then I have to wonder if you’re actually a nice guy, or if it was just an act you were putting on in order to attract women.
Mark Jul 9th 2009 at 12:27 pm 50

I am a nice guy and no I don’t buy gifts etc. to try get woman to like me. Just don’t see the appreciation.
I think I’m done with the whole process.