How Can a Sexy Woman Like Me Show Men Online I’m Not Up for a One Night Stand?

how-can-a-sexy-woman-like-me-show-men-online-im-not-up-for-a-one-night-stand

I recently made an online profile in the hopes of trying to find a man that I can connect with on a deeper level than the past. I’ve tried to learn from my past mistakes in dating and grow from them and I figured trying online dating would help widen my dating pool. The main problem I have is men only being interested in me for sex or being blatantly sexual when they first approach me. I am a very attractive black woman with a curvy body and I often feel like guys want black women for sex, particularly men of other races.

I’m frustrated because when I go out men make me feel extremely uncomfortable by constantly commenting on the way I look and men online get into sex very quickly. A lot of people don’t understand why I’ve turned to online dating since I’ve been told I’m a catch and don’t seem like I would have trouble meeting people. They’re right, I don’t have trouble meeting people but I do have trouble finding men that want to get to know me seriously and not just use me for my body.

I dress in a way that’s flattering to me but I don’t let all my stuff hang out. I have a degree from an Ivy level institution, am really kind and generally respectful to everyone. Why is it that men only seem to want me for sex? I think I have a great personality that matches my looks and am thinking of just deleting my profile since it’s making dating more uncomfortable and is extremely disappointing. What can I do to show guys I’m girlfriend material and more than just a one night stand?

Thanks,
Nay

In 2004, “I Can’t Believe I’m Buying This Book – A Commonsense Guide to Successful Internet Dating,” a 31-year-old Evan Marc Katz wrote that online dating photos showing skin were a no-no.

In 2017, a 44-year-old Evan Marc Katz declares the younger Evan Marc Katz a hypocrite

I realized I was a hypocrite years ago; I just don’t think I ever posted about it until now.

Bikini? Short dress? Cleavage? Yes, please.

The idea behind telling women not to post sexy, figure-flattering photos was to avoid attracting the “wrong” kind of guy. And I get it – on the internet, there are a LOT of “wrong” men who think nothing of writing the nastiest things from get-go. So, on one hand, there is plenty of evidence that sexy photos can bring out the worst in men. On the other hand, when forced to do a bit of soul-searching, I quickly realized something pretty important: evidently, this meant that I was one of the wrong men.

Bikini? Short dress? Cleavage?

Yes, please.

So what does that mean about me? Nothing – apart from the fact that I’m a red-blooded-American male and one of the only “experts” I know who is honest enough to admit such things publicly.

Which is why I no longer discourage attractive women with good bodies from hiding them.

Fact is, according to OKCupid, it WORKS.

Women with cleavage get 49% more emails per month.

Not only that, if you continue to showcase your sex appeal more as you age (when most women tone it down), you will have even a greater advantage than the younger women who show cleavage.

Since many readers tend to lose sight of nuance, Nay, I am certainly not encouraging you to go purchase boudoir photos, wearing a negligee, ass up on the bed, your finger parting your lips.

You’re not selling sex here. You’re accentuating your strengths in an organic way. Show a photo of you and your best friend on the beach last summer. Use a picture where you’re dolled up for a night out on the town. Don’t be shy about something that is form-fitting or shows a hint of skin. Just make sure that this is one of seven OTHER photos that show you in real life, dressed up for Halloween, attending your sister’s wedding, or hiking in Runyon Canyon.

Sex isn’t ALL that you are, but it should be a PIECE of who you are.

Women who neuter themselves in their online dating profiles are hurting their own chances to attract men, and falsely conflate dating (which ideally involves sex) with job hunting (which, ideally, doesn’t.)

Sex isn’t ALL that you are, but it should be a PIECE of who you are.

By the way, two notes that should make you breathe easier:

    1. You can delete 90% of men right off the bat – including anyone who writes something aggressively icky.
    2. You can date WITHOUT photos, as long as you have a great profile and email technique.

My thoughts on how to get men to fall for you without a photo can be found here.

Your thoughts on the effectiveness of showcasing your body in online dating photos are greatly appreciated below.

Join our conversation (206 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    FG

    Rare instance where I think you did not address the main concern, Evan. (And I agree “I’m one to talk”!)

    Suggestion, as it is relevant: the initial writer’s AGE should become a std feature. Perhaps also applicable to comments: pain to add anything to a now standardized structure, but name email AND age also would help.

    That being said, Nay (if that is her name) seems to fit a now common occurrence of possible self-worth assessment “inflation”. She may look fantastic, she may be a knock-out, she may be nice, sweet, fabulous and brilliant, but let others be the judge of that! Not quite the same as selling yourself short on the dating market.

    In terms of age, if she is in her 20’s, men may still be in their wild oats season. Or she’s sending the wrong message. One such wrong message is found when some women throw a couple of pics and have zero profile contents: “hey, I look great! Why should I bother writing anything!” or has nothing to write, or writes nothing of interest.

    She refers to lessons from her dating history, but leaves us wondering what it is she did learn along the way. Brings to mind a conversation with a female friend years ago. She had a new bf. I proceeded to describe him. To the extent where she asked me if I actually knew the guy! “No, but your last 4 bf have ALL been the same guy in terms of looks, tastes, attitudes, hobbies, etc. Only the name changes!”. Didn’t speak to me for a couple of months. And then concurred. 🙂

    Maybe the issue for Nay lies with a recurrent pattern in the date selection process. Maybe her expectations are ill defined (I do read profiles where women specifically state seeking an LTR, and no interest for a ONS).

    1. 1.1
      Nay

      Nay is a nickname deriving from my real name.

      In terms of age I’m 23 about to be 24.

      My past mistakes? Dating blonde haired blue eyed men who end up being emotionally abusive somewhere down the line. So you’re right that there is a pattern and I am most definitely trying to break it.

      In terms of inflation I feel like I can’t let others be the judge of that because I’m used to others judging me otherwise. From the men that are surprised that I’m smart because I’m attractive or the men who approach me for sex because of my shape I feel like my guard is constantly up because other people are always prejudging me before they get to know the real me. I’m not trying to come off as egotistical, but I’ve been told I’m a catch by people I know well and ones I barely know. To the point that I still have people from HIGH SCHOOL reaching out to me on occasion…

      My profile was pretty thorough. I received a lot of messages because of my profile but a lot of people just looked at the pictures and didn’t really read my page which was frustrating.  Even more frustrating were the men who were suspicious that someone like me was even single and issued backhanded compliments with their messages. I ended up just deleting my account but a part of me wonders if I should give it another shot.  I did go out on a few dates with one guy but he turned out to be extremely clingy (sent me five texts in an hour when I didn’t respond to him), very insecure and overly sensitive (he got upset that I disagreed openly with his political views in front of a friend. Then passively aggressively kept bringing up the incident even though I had asked him if he wanted to discuss things.  He denied it yet kept bringing it up. Eventually I outright asked him what was up. He admitted to being upset about the situation. I was annoyed he didn’t say anything when I had asked him several times before. I’ve been in abusive relationships so I have a low tolerance for sideways jabs)  and we had different values. (he didn’t want to get married or have kids someday)

  2. 2
    Yet Another Guy

    All men date for sex. Any man who claims otherwise is lying. Sex, more properly procreation, is the biological instinct that drives men to couple. There is a subclass of men who cannot function without a mommy figure in their lives to cook, clean, and grocery shop for them; however, for most part, self-sufficient men are thinking about what a woman looks like naked, not how well she keeps a house or cooks, her education attainment level, what she does for a living, or how nice she is to other people. Those attributes only come into play after he conquers her as a sexual partner.

    If woman wants a man to stick around, she needs to start practicing sexclusivity. There is no substitute. When in doubt, she should make him wait! I have lost count of the number of women who falsely believe that they need to have sex with a man early, so that he will stay around when the opposite usually occurs. A mentally/emotionally healthy man only appreciates what he has to earn. By practicing sexclusivity, a woman demonstrates that she has higher value.

    Sexclusivity also tends to invoke another primal response in a man; namely, the desire to protect what he believes is his from other men (i.e., he knows that he is not sharing you with other men, and he will do what it takes to keep it that way). A man is programmed from birth to lay his life on the line to protect what he believes is his from other men. This instinct is the same instinct that causes men to go to war. The protection instinct is coupled with the instinct to please; therefore, once a woman has a man in this state, she literally has him wrapped around her finger. The fact that most women fail to recognize this simple reality boggles my mind. A little possession is actually very good for a relationship.

    In the end, a woman should sell it, but she needs to remain focused on requiring a man to invest in the relationship order to obtain the privilege of being intimate with her, even if she desires to be intimate early. Fifty years of women’s liberation is not going to undo millions of years of evolution. Evolution rewarded men who exhibited this instinctual behavior whereas men who did not were removed from the gene pool.

    1. 2.1
      L D Silver

      Any self respecting man will next a woman who withholds sex to extract a commitment unless the woman is young and innocent.

      1. 2.1.1
        S.

        I may be naive, but I don’t understand why this has to affect a man’s self-respect. I am assuming a man would care if a woman develops feelings for him after sex, if he doesn’t return those feelings. I mean I feel bad turning down a guy for a date.  I’d feel terrible if a man got attached to me after sex, if I knew I just wanted a physical release and not anything else.  I hate to hurt anyone’s feelings.  Are men that different? I’d like to believe they would hate to hurt someone’s feelings too.

        Nay wanting to connect with the men she meets on a deeper level doesn’t mean she is trying to use anyone or or something.  And many women do have sex early on and without commitment. So there all types of people are dating out there to choose from.  I just don’t like the men who do wait  and who want a commitment first being characterized as being weak or being taken advantage of.  That’s what our society does.  Make someone being patient and commitment-minded, seeming of less respect.  But there is room for both.  For those men and women who wait for commitment and those who don’t. Both are okay. Both are worthy of respect. And I hope both find their counterparts out there.

        1. KK

          S. said,

          “I’d feel terrible if a man got attached to me after sex, if I knew I just wanted a physical release and not anything else.  I hate to hurt anyone’s feelings.  Are men that different? I’d like to believe they would hate to hurt someone’s feelings too.”

          Men are different. Some men do care. A lot more don’t. If he’s looking for casual sex and you go along with it, most men aren’t going to feel bad or guilty if you get attached and they don’t. The ones who do feel bad arent going to pursue a relationship with you just to ease their conscience. Therefore, if you aren’t looking for casual sex, don’t have sex until he’s your boyfriend and has made a committment to you.

        2. S.

          To KK

          I understand the onus is on the woman to look out for her own feelings.  My comment was really about the guy’s self-respect.  Would he still respect himself if he hurt someone’s feelings? Maybe, maybe not. I’m just going to give men the benefit of that doubt.

          If we go with what you said, a lot more don’t care, then it’s difficult for me to understand how his self-respect is somehow affected by a woman’s choices.  Wouldn’t he simply not care about that as well?  But people can be rather self-interested, male or female.  It is what it is. My opinion still stands that either choice is worthy of respect.

          Nay asked the question and I hope the comments here helped her somewhat. Yep, men can be very different. But not all. Not all are that different.  Every woman just has to find the right man for her.

        3. Shaukat

          @ S

          By that logic S, maybe you should say yes to every guy who asks you out. After all, if you hurt his feelings, could you still respect yourself?

        4. S.

          To Shaukat

          I do say yes to a lot of dates.  By the time a guy asks, I’ve already screened out folks who are rude or offensive.  (Not saying the OP’s experiences were with rude men. It still remains unclear in her case if they are just normal men who like the female form or someone rude or tone deaf about communicating that.)

          For me, I say yes because it’s just a date. A few hours of our time.  And you never know.  Sometimes the quietest, most unassuming guy is actually quite amazing.  But you’ll never know if you don’t meet him.  So I say yes.   As for blocking people who are rude or offensive to me in a first e-mail, quite the contrary, doing that actually confirms my self-respect.  Nothing in their responses has ever been anything remotely like hurt.  The rudeness actually can escalate even though I’m very polite beforehand.  So no I don’t feel badly about that at all.

          But I don’t think we’re equating a woman wanting to get to know a man on a deeper level before sex with someone who makes rude or offensive comments in an e-mail.   Is a woman waiting for exclusivity actually offensive to some men?  Maybe it is.  I’m just genuinely questioning aloud here, not accusing.  Just . . . surprised.

          It’s certainly a different way of looking at things.

        5. S

          To the other “S”

          I think there is a whole spectrum of guys out there, some wouldn’t have sex with a girl if he didn’t want her as a girlfriend and some who trick women who like them into being booty calls and string them along for sex.

          Some guys don’t respect a woman who has sex with them early on and some think a girl who makes him wait is playing games or is weird.

          There are all kinds of people with different motives.

        6. S.

          To S (without the period, :))

          Yep, there are all types of people out there.  But thinking a woman is weird is different still than losing respect for himself.

          I’m glad one man here chimed in that it doesn’t affect his self-respect.  And he mentioned the head-trip of a woman who isn’t emotionally ready. Sometimes it’s not fun on both sides.

          But yep, some men could care less.  I like to think more on those who recognize where a woman is emotionally, but yep, all kinds of men and woman are definitely out there.

      2. 2.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        I am a grown man. My self-respect is not damaged when a woman withholds sex from me. In fact, I am relieved when a woman does not offer sex early in the courting ritual. I personally do not want to deal with the head-trip that follows having sex with a woman before she is emotionally ready.

        In my humble opinion, any guy who is sleeping around in 2017 needs to have his head examined. One in four women and one in five men carry genital herpes, either in the form of HSV-2 or HSV-1 that has been transmitted to the genitals via oral sex. At this point, herpes is for life. Due to shedding, a condom does not protect either partner from the virus. As an STD-free man, I demand sexclusivity with a test.

        1. Stacy

          YAG,

          I really really like you.

        2. KK

          Hi Stacy,

          I agree. If more men had his mind set, it would solve a lot of problems.  : )

           

        3. Yet Another Guy

          Ladies, I appreciate the compliments; however, my approach to dating is the result of lessons learned the hard way. Any man who believes that having to wait until he is exclusive with a woman for sex is a heavy price to pay should try being trapped in a marriage that is intimacy free for over a decade. I remember the first time that I kissed a woman after I separated from my ex. I kissed my date like she was the last woman on Earth. It literally left us both speechless.

        4. GoWiththeFlow

          YAG,

          “Any man who believes that having to wait until he is exclusive with a woman for sex is a heavy price to pay should try being trapped in a marriage that is intimacy free for over a decade.”

          Not to mention that up until 50-60 years ago the norm was a man had to be married before he had intercourse with a woman!  A few year back I date a man from a very Catholic South American country.  He said that a man having to wait until engagement or marriage was still the norm there.  He moved to the UK for grad school (and then to the U.S. after that) and thought he’d gone through a time warp.  He was very relaxed about waiting to get to know a woman before he had sex with her.  He often advised younger men not to take it personally!

      3. 2.1.3
        StarlanK

        Wow, LD Silver, I can’t believe you actually wrote that. You really expect women to just jump into bed with a man, without a commitment? Then you probably say all women are sluts. You sound like a toxic Red Pill guy to me…. I (and I’m sure many other women here) respect myself more than that. Just because a woman goes out on a few dates hardly means she’s obligated to sleep with you. SMH…!

      4. 2.1.4
        Nissa

        What bothers me about this comment is that there’s an assumption here that the woman is not having sex, with the intention of forcing someone else to change his behavior.

        Doesn’t it occur to people that women like to know the man she’s dating to the degree that he’s not a virtual stranger, before getting naked? I’d be embarrassed to sleep with a man and realize that I don’t know his last name, what kind of work he does and what is most important to him.

        Dating is for getting to know someone well enough to know if you want to share your life with them.  I need to know someone, minimally, well enough to know that I (my body and spirit) will be respected and appreciated before I get naked. There’s nothing manipulative or coercive about that.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Thank you Nissa.  I am so sick of women being accused of being “whorish” and that the lack of a desire to have sex with a stranger is simply to “manipulate” or “force” him to wait.  Like having our own wants and needs and acting in accordance with OUR wants and needs makes us bitches or something.

          There are enough women who don’t mind sleeping with strangers, that men don’t have to complain about the women who like to actually be in a relationship with the person they sleep with.

  3. 3
    Malika

    Hi Nay:

    When you are looking for something more serious than NSA sex or short term relationship, it can be very trying having to weed out the guys who blatantly sexualize their communication to you. They haven’t yet realized the difference between making it clear they find you desirable (‘you look very pretty in your profile photos), and talking to you as if you are a piece of meat they view favourably (‘your tits are HOT’). I get the same e-mails sometimes on OKC, and i feel that my profile is one of the more wholesome and complete ones out there. But not to worry, just delete those e-mails. and concentrate your attention on the men who want to connect with you on a deeper level. I would also recommend looking through the men’s profiles and sending an e-mail to them. As you are initiating the conversation, you can set the playful yet respectful tone and thereby avoid an overly sexual come on.

    As for the balance of spicing up your profile without attracting the wrong kind of attention, Evan is onto a good thing. Men and women want to get a complete picture of who they are mailing with, and it shows that you are confident of your body. I have six profile pics, two of them are full body ones. One is at a park with me wearing a summer dress, and another in a sexy but not blatant little red riding hood Halloween costume.  They are tucked to the back of the line, which means that they see them if they want, but the first pictures they will click on are of my face. It doesn’t stop me getting almost daily mails from strangers commenting on my boobs and legs, but tucking them to the back of the photo lineup ensured that i got a whole lot less of them.

    1. 3.1
      KK

      What I find odd is this statement:

      I am a very attractive black woman with a curvy body and I often feel like guys want black women for sex, particularly men of other races”.

      I’m wondering how she came to this conclusion.

      1. 3.1.1
        Barbara

        She probably got that impression from men who say things like “I’ve always wanted to be with a black woman,”as of we’re exotic creatures to be explored and not women to be loved and respected.

        This attitude of white men toward black women goes back centuries and continues today. Of course, not all white men think this way, at least not consciously.

  4. 4
    b

    Yeah men like sexy sexy but sexy is not in pics =) its when a man meets a girl and knows intuitively if she is sexy or not. I post good girls pics but am anything short of that in bed—-. However I try screen out all those creeps online so I put up my nerdy awesome girl pics. And if those men are lucky, they get meet real me.

    Ive met so many girls who post extra sexy pics but in person, they were just regular girls who dressed sexy but didnt have a inkling of sex appeal. They were catty and full of drama, high maintenance and pre-madonnas.

    Then there are girls how dress well, speak well, may even be shy or introverted who come off very sexy in a feminine way. So my advice to OP is go ahead and post your average normal pics. WOW the guy you meet in person  instead. Screen men but also be generous and meet everyone who is decent enough. My experience is meet everyone, screen men while on coffee dates, NO ONE is like their profiles so give men a chance!, and if you dress nice on a date, dont forget to highlight your personality too. So many men pass up hot looking girls for a average girl with an amazing personality. So there goes that. Good luck =)

     

  5. 5
    Tron Swanson

    Speaking as a guy that’s spent almost twenty years finding casual sex partners online: when a woman shows skin, it definitely makes me think that I have more of a chance (men tend to be optimists in this area), but I don’t go out of my way to message women that show skin. In my experience, skin-showing is basically the norm, now, and it doesn’t really mean anything. I message attractive women whether they show skin or not.

    Also, some advice for women: if your profile includes something about not wanting ONS/casual sex/FWBs, please be careful in how you phrase it. If you say “I’m done with guys that only want casual stuff” or “I won’t let myself be used anymore” or post an angry all-caps message, well, all you’re doing is admitting that you’ve fallen for it before. And in my experience, women that fell for it before usually end up falling for it again.

    Finally, I just wanted to say that I really envy women. Being to automatically rule out 90%, and only accepting the top 10%? Wow, what a luxury.

    1. 5.1
      Emily, the original

      Tron Swanson,

      Finally, I just wanted to say that I really envy women. Being to automatically rule out 90%, and only accepting the top 10%? Wow, what a luxury.

      Ninety percent are the obvious impossibilities: creepers like the OP wrote about who are blatantly sexual, men who are considerably older or considerably younger. I don’t know any woman who is sitting there trying to decide between Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt.

      1. 5.1.1
        Tron Swanson

        90%, really? That seems awfully high. Do you think the same is true for men–that 90% of women are “obvious impossibilities” for us, but we’re stuck settling for them regardless?

        1. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          Do you think the same is true for men–that 90% of women are “obvious impossibilities” for us, but we’re stuck settling for them regardless?

          I can’t answer that. I’m not a man. I was simply commenting on the fact that a lot of men (based on the posts on this site) think women have all the power in dating. They don’t. All they can do (all anyone can do) is make the best selection based on who is interested in them. (And 90 was the percentage you used.)

           

          90 was the percentage you used.

        2. Tron Swanson

          90% was what Evan used, I was just referencing him.

          With all due respect, I think that your answer is disingenuous. “Oh, women don’t have power, all anyone can do is choose based on who’s interested in them.” Uh-huh. I suppose it’s a complete coincidence that men are stuck pursuing, and that all a woman has to do to get a man interested in her is to show up, be decent-looking, and be alive. Things like that sort of make a difference, to say the least. Acting like things are even when they actually aren’t…yeah, I don’t think that’s very productive.

        3. Emily, the original

          Tron Swanson,

          With all due respect, I think that your answer is disingenuous.

          I wasn’t being disingenuous. What I wrote was true. Take a minute to read these 2 posts from Karl R on the link below in their entirety. He explains many things, but among them is how no one has the power in dating. I have copied his idea on power in dating below.

          Does Online Dating Even Work?!

          Premise 4: Women have the same amount of control over their dating lives as men do.  A woman can’t date me unless I want to date her.  I can’t date a woman unless she wants to date me.  She couldn’t “show up” for a first date unless I was sufficiently interested to ask her out.  She couldn’t get a second date unless I felt like asking her out a second time.

          Power / Control is Equal Among the Sexes: Take a moment and visualize the most repulsive woman you’ve ever seen.  Do you have her image fixed clearly in your mind?

          Does she have the power to make you pursue her?  Can she exert some form of control to get you to ask her out?

          Power. Is. Equal. Between. The. Sexes.

           

        4. Tron Swanson

          “What I wrote was true.”

          No, it’s a disingenuous rationalization, which is intended to enable women to hide the incredible scam you’ve got going. You’ve never had it so good…but you still want to be able to play the “unfairness” card from time to time, so you have to pretend otherwise. When I can walk into any public place, blink, and have women lining up to sleep with me, then I’ll know that things are equal.

          Anyway, we’ll never convince each other, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

        5. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          When I can walk into any public place, blink, and have women lining up to sleep with me, then I’ll know that things are equal.

          That, my friend, is biology. Just like you claim biology when you want a young woman or a woman with a certain waist-to-hip ratio or you can’t help noticing hot women in front of your date ….

          Women are more selective than men and so do the picking. Again, biology. There will always be a line of men waiting to hook up with an attractive woman. It’s just how it is. Men pursue. Women are pursued. I’m not pulling an unfairness card. I’m simply accepting what is.

        6. Tron Swanson

          I love it. When biology benefits women, women ignore equality. When equality benefits women, women ignore biology. It must be nice being able to pick and choose like that…

        7. Marika

          C’mon, Tron, you’re taking our your dating frustrations on Emily, the original. We can all sit around all day arguing who has it harder in dating. Men think they have it harder as they often have to pursue and get a low response rate, women think they have it harder as they are more likely to have pervs come on to them and have to be mindful of not being too forward//emotional as they can be judged more harshly for those things by men. Where does that lamenting get us?

          The one thing we can probably all agree on is that anger & being bitter is attractive to no one, and that taking our frustrations out on others doesn’t help.

        8. Tron Swanson

          Two quick things, Marika:

          1. I’ve never dated in my life. I’ve never even asked a woman out. And I have no desire to. Ergo, no “dating frustrations” here.

          2. I act the way I do because I want to be genuine, not out of a desire to impress anyone or win anyone over. So “this emotion won’t get the result you want” is meaningless, for me. I’m not going to pretend to be someone I’m not.

        9. KK

          Tron said,

          “I love it. When biology benefits women, women ignore equality. When equality benefits women, women ignore biology. It must be nice being able to pick and choose like that…”

          How so? It seems your argument is that women have it easier when it comes to hooking up. You’re right. But that isn’t what most women want. So what exactly is the benefit of something being easy to get if it has no value to you? Those women that do have casual sex eventually want a meaningful relationship too. So, yes, it’s easier for women to get sex. Just like it’s easier for men who want a relationship. If a man wants a relationship, all he has to do is ask out women who are near his same level of attractiveness. A woman wanting a relationship has to weed through all the players first. Men and women want different things and what comes easy to one is less easy to come by for the other. Seems equally challenging to me.

        10. Tron Swanson

          From what I’ve seen, it’s tough for most men to get into equitable relationships. Women tend to want to date/marry up, so your “same level of attractiveness” doesn’t really apply. On average, women have both more expectations and higher expectations when it comes to this stuff.

          Regardless, let’s say that the old idea is right: that men are the gatekeepers of commitment, while women are the gatekeepers of sex. Okay. So, if I want to have sex with a woman, and she says no, I have to start the whole process over again with a new woman. Pursuing, all that crap. But if a woman wants a relationship with me, and I say no, all she has to do is stand around in public for a minute or two, and new candidates will flock to her. Now, most of them won’t be up to her standards, but it surely simplifies the process. It’s easier for the woman than it is for the man.

        11. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          Women tend to want to date/marry up, so your “same level of attractiveness” doesn’t really apply.

          Actually, I’ve found that men punch up at least 2 or 3 degrees higher than their own appearance when approaching women. I’m 45, and a large portion of my demographic of late is men who are at least 10 to 15 years older than I am.

        12. KK

          Tron said,

          “1. I’ve never dated in my life. I’ve never even asked a woman out. And I have no desire to. Ergo, no “dating frustrations” here.”

          You’ve laid out, in detail, all your frustrations but you’re not frustrated?

          “2. I act the way I do because I want to be genuine, not out of a desire to impress anyone or win anyone over.”

          Sure you’re being genuine? Because to me, you sound genuinely frustrated.

        13. Tron Swanson

          Emily: Actually, I’ve noticed the exact opposite. I frequently see decent-looking men with extremely overweight women. I can understand your situation, though; I wouldn’t get involved with a woman your age until I was 60 or so.

          KK: Oh, I’m absolutely frustrated, and justifiably so. Hopefully that doesn’t invalidate my opinions, somehow. I was just saying that it has nothing to do with dating.

        14. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          I wouldn’t get involved with a woman your age until I was 60 or so.

          Not to worry. It will never be an option for you, whether I was 45, 65 or 25.

        15. Stacy

          @Tron,

          You  must be really, REALLY hot or the best lover that was ever created (or only dealing with women wayyyy below your ‘level’ with incredibly low self esteem).

          You don’t take women on dates. You don’t romance them. You don’t see them as anything but a piece of ass. You don’t want to get married.  You don’t want a girlfriend and yet women seem to drop their underwear for you often (at least according to you).

          Hmmm

        16. Tron Swanson

          Stacy,

          I’m pretty good-looking, if not tall. There’s no point in addressing the other matter, as I could say anything. Granted, for all you know, I could be a genetically-engineered hamster that’s figured out how to use a talk-to-type program.

          My view is that evolution is effective, and that sex was designed to be easy. Personally, I think that most women know if they want to have sex with a man within a minute of meeting him. I also think that humans overcomplicate things. I get rid of all the irrelevant social/cultural aspects and see if sex happens or not. My view is that you can’t go wrong with a woman that wants you, and you can’t go right with a woman that doesn’t want you, so it’s best to use minimal effort and get out of nature’s way.

        17. Tom10

          @ Tron Swanson
          “Personally, I think that most women know if they want to have sex with a man within a minute of meeting him…My view is that you can’t go wrong with a woman that wants you, and you can’t go right with a woman that doesn’t want you, so it’s best to use minimal effort and get out of nature’s way.”
           
          I actually agree with you here Tron, that many women (such as Karmic Equation and Emily), if not most, know if they want to have sex with a man or not within a minute of meeting him. So if your goal is “just sex” it does make sense to pursue those women and quickly cut off the women who make you wait. And, in spite of what Stacy is alluding to, I actually agree with you that a significant percentage of women (with – gasp! – healthy self-esteem) are perfectly okay with “just sex”. Women who only have sex within relationships (like Stacy) really struggle to comprehend this reality as they don’t date other women.
           
          However, I believe there is a subset of women, such as KK and S (I think) who can genuinely “grow” their attraction to a guy over time once they see more of his personality. This concept is so alien to (most of, if not all) us men; we’re either instantly attracted to a woman or not, so we really struggle to comprehend this subset of women. Guys who can’t generate instant attraction and want relationships are probably wiser targeting this subset of women.
           
          So, ultimately, it boils down to what your dating goal is then and the focus your dating strategy accordingly. Therefore, your modus operandi makes sense to me.

        18. Tron Swanson

          Thanks for your support, Tom10.

          I agree that, in some cases, women can “grow” attraction…but it’s not something I’d ever bet on, so I go for instant-attraction only. This is because of my past experiences. Sad to say, when I was younger, I wasted a lot of time trying to win over women that were simply never attracted to me. I listened to their words, when I should have been watching their actions. I won’t be making that mistake again.

          Also, something I forgot to mention in my reply to Stacy: in no way, shape, or form am I claiming to be any sort of ladies’ man. I do surprisingly well, given my limitations–self-imposed and otherwise–but I’m not some sort of master pickup artist. I’ve been doing this for almost twenty years, so I’ve developed some good strategies, but I’m not Mr. Suave or something.

        19. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I actually agree with you here Tron, that many women (such as Karmic Equation and Emily), if not most, know if they want to have sex with a man or not within a minute of meeting him.

          That is true, at least for me, but that doesn’t always mean I jump into bed with him. I remember an earlier post (I can’t remember which one) where Adrian was worried (for lack of a better word) that women gave it up earlier if they were really attracted to a man. The implication was that, if she made him wait, she wasn’t particularly attracted and was trying to see if he grew on her.  Several women commented that making a man wait can mean that she IS attracted to him and wants to see if there’s anything else there besides attraction.

          Women have “just sex” relationships for a variety of reasons. As is true I’m sure for a lot of men, just because she sleeps with a man with no strings attached doesn’t mean she’s highly attracted to him. Men seem to think women can’t have sex without attraction or at least a fairly high level of it. They can. Sometimes it’s been forever and an opportunity presents itself. Or sometimes the reasons are a bit darker — she’s trying to stick it to an ex. A man may not care what her motivation is, but motivation is a BIG part of what makes sex good. It’ll be a lot better if she isn’t ambivalent.

           

          So if your goal is “just sex” it does make sense to pursue those women and quickly cut off the women who make you wait. And, in spite of what Stacy is alluding to, I actually agree with you that a significant percentage of women (with – gasp! – healthy self-esteem) are perfectly okay with “just sex”

        20. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          I inadvertently copied part of your previous post: So if your goal is “just sex” it does make sense to pursue those women and quickly cut off the women who make you wait. And, in spite of what Stacy is alluding to, I actually agree with you that a significant percentage of women (with – gasp! – healthy self-esteem) are perfectly okay with “just sex”

        21. Tom10

          Hi Emily, the original
           
          Thanks for your polite reply; your comments are always so dignified 🙂
           
          “That is true, at least for me”,
           
          Right. So Tron was correct then?
           
          “Several women commented that making a man wait can mean that she IS attracted to him and wants to see if there’s anything else there besides attraction.”
           
          Okay, but why would Tron wait around for those women “to see if they see anything else there besides attraction” when he knows that many/most other women will know straightaway whether they will sleep with him or not? Why would he hang around assuming the risk of getting burned (if/when she subsequently discovers there’s nothing else besides attraction)?
           
          “Women have “just sex” relationships for a variety of reasons.”
           
          Agreed. So Stacy was incorrect when she insinuated that only low-quality or low self-esteem women accept “just sex”; you have just outlined various circumstances where many women are fine with “just sex”. Therefore, you have proved Tron correct on this point too. Hmm.

        22. Emily, the original

          Tom10,

          Why would he hang around assuming the risk of getting burned (if/when she subsequently discovers there’s nothing else besides attraction)?

          Because sometimes, once she discovers there’s nothing there but attraction, she says to hell with it and hooks up with him, anyway.  Because, why not? Maybe it’s been yearS since she’s been with a man she was super turned on by.

        23. KK

          Hi Tom10,

          You stated:  “However, I believe there is a subset of women, such as KK and S (I think) who can genuinely “grow” their attraction to a guy over time once they see more of his personality”.

          I’m not sure you’ve understood my previous comments on this subject. However, it could be because I didn’t explain myself well enough. Whenever I meet someone, there’s either some level of attraction or not. If there isn’t any attraction at all, there’s no chance I’ll ever find him attractive. However, the initial attraction I feel for someone isn’t always based on looks alone. They might have some impressive quality that’s attractive. And then, as you said, further attraction can either continue to grow or wane. Just wanted to clarify. 😊Also, I think most women past their earlier twenties tend to operate this way, so that would put me in the majority not make me a subset. The thing is, men will never know whether you were smitten with them at first sight or your attraction to them grew over time, because most women wouldn’t see any benefit in sharing this with a man they’re seeing.

        24. Barbara

          KK

          Whenever I meet someone, there’s either some level of attraction or not. If there isn’t any attraction at all, there’s no chance I’ll ever find him attractive. However, the initial attraction I feel for someone isn’t always based on looks alone. They might have some impressive quality that’s attractive. And then, as you said, further attraction can either continue to grow or wane.

          Your statement sums up my experience exactly, KK. Also, it’s in line with everything Evan has said about chemistry. He has never said attraction can grow from zero. Rather he says at least some attraction has to be there (he specifically mentions a “7” on a 1-10 scale); it just needn’t be over the top.

          In fact if you feel a “10” in attraction and a low level of compatibility, for the type of women that he’s advice is geared toward, the relationship will in all likelihood flash and burn, according to him. This has also been my experience.

          I feel like I’m finally retraining my thinking so that I am attracted to a man’s compatibility and character first and his looks second. Again, this doesn’t work if I don’t find him at all physically attractive. I’ve got to be able to imagine myself kissing him and liking it. In terms of attractiveness, this is my baseline measure for whether or not he has potential and it’s not a thought process that requires a lot of mental effort. It’s instinctual.

      2. 5.1.2
        shaukat

        He explains many things, but among them is how no one has the power in dating.

        I actually sympathize more with Tron on this point. Karl is looking at micro-relations between specific individuals, which doesn’t take into account dating dynamics on a macro-scale; hence it is essentially committing the fallacy of composition.

        True, one repulsive woman has no ‘power’ in dating, but that says nothing about the broader environment in which the sexes operate. We can use Evan’s own metaphor to drive this point home: Every woman should act as a CEO and treat the men she dates as interns. Who has more power, a CEO or an intern? True, no CEO has any power over a highly sought after ‘intern’ or employee, but that hardly matters when a hundred other interns are flooding them with applications.

        OLD can also prove this point. Put up a profile of an average looking man and woman, holding all else equal, and then check to see who has more msgs in a week. Keep in mind, I’m talking only about dating, not actual relationships. Once we get to the latter, it’s true no one has the power.

        1. Callie

          Sincere question: what’s the advantage as an individual trying to find the best way to date taking the macro-scale into account?

          (I specify for a person trying to date vs someone doing a larger scale sociological study etc)

        2. Emily, the original

          Shaukat,

          True, no CEO has any power over a highly sought after ‘intern’ or employee, but that hardly matters when a hundred other interns are flooding them with applications.

          Don’t you think the averagely attractive woman is getting flooded with messages from men much older, 5 states away or possessing only 3 teeth? You don’t think most of the messages just say “Hey”? And of the men she may be interested in, how many follow through with a phone call? A date? A second date? It’s a numbers game for her, like it is for everyone else. Most women I know aren’t waiting for the “most sought-after intern.” That’s another fallacy that keeps being purported here. It’s as if you think we are sitting at home at our computers, drinking Mimosas, cackling as we shoot guys down left and right.

           

      3. 5.1.3
        Emily, the original

        Tom10,

        I inadvertently copied part of your previous post: So if your goal is “just sex” it does make sense to pursue those women and quickly cut off the women who make you wait. And, in spite of what Stacy is alluding to, I actually agree with you that a significant percentage of women (with – gasp! – healthy self-esteem) are perfectly okay with “just sex”

    2. 5.2
      Marika

      I doubt you’ll take this on board, Tron, but worth a try.

      Could your frustration with the opposite sex/hooking up (or whatever the right word is, as you don’t date) lie partly in your unrealistic expectations? You don’t date, you don’t ask women out, you’re outwardly frustrated & combative (i.e. getting into debates with people on dating blogs even though you don’t date..), and yet you would expect a woman of 45 to hook up with you when you’re in your 60s?

      I hate to break it to you, but women aren’t generally looking for a man 15 years + older than them to hook up with who won’t ask them out and who is frustrated about & combative with the opposite sex. If you either change your approach or expectations in this regard, you may have more luck & be less frustrated.

      1. 5.2.1
        Tron Swanson

        I don’t expect a woman of 45 to hook up with me when I’m 60; I’m just saying that I’d never consider a woman that age until I was about 60. I tend to look for women my own age and younger, but I’m open to women that are, say, five years older.

        By refusing to do certain things, I’ve certainly made it more challenging for myself…but it was already pretty challenging anyway. The good part is that, this way, I feel better about trying. At least I’m not wasting any money, and at least I’m not wasting much time and effort, either. There have been times when I have wasted time and effort. I hate chasing women in general, and I hated it even more then. Never again. I’m happier and less stressed, now.

        For the record, outside of sites like this, I’m not combative with women at all. But I do vent for a few minutes each day, because it’s healthy.

        1. Emily, the original

          Tron,

          I’m just saying that I’d never consider a woman that age until I was about 60.

          It doesn’t matter if you wouldn’t consider a 45-year-old until you were 60. In a majority of cases, by then, she probably won’t consider you. Would you date a woman 15 years older than you? So at 60, you are open to 75-year-olds? I’m not trying to be sarcastic. It’s a perfectly legitimate question, as you expect women to overlook 15 years.

        2. Marika

          Tron,

          I actually now understand your frustration. You’d like to be able to take a passive role in male/female interactions (typically a feminine trait), but as most of society and online dating sites don’t work that way, it’s difficult for you to do so. And you’re not being treated like the other passive/feminine types online that you’re more aligned with who, as you point out, often get bombarded with messages, as you’d like. Quite a dilemma.

          However, let me assure you that the grass is not always greener. While I agree that women get a lot more messages than men, and on 2 of the 3 dating sites I’m on, I do get what you’d consider inundated with messages; while it was exciting at first, on the whole it feels less flattering and more like when a guy wolf whistles from a construction site. Except 20 guys are wolf whistling at you. All at once. And one’s yelling “show us your t*ts”, and one’s your father’s age, and one is married, and one can’t form a sentence, and one is half naked, and a few are nice guys but they got caught up in it all because you’re getting overwhelmed etc..

          Again, I understand that may sound great to you, but unless you’ve been there, it’s hard to understand that it’s nowhere near as great as it sounds.

          I’d personally still prefer that than being rejected or ignored at the rate men do, so I sympathise with you, but neither of us can change how the population or opposite sex works. The best thing to do is take a more targetted approach – you should maybe try to contact more alpha/dominant females.

          Men, also, please know that this is often why we don’t respond to your messages. It’s not because we’re picky, mean, princesses. It’s just too much. So we all need to focus on the guys who are most aligned with what we want. Not the best looking guy necessarily. Not the smoothest guy necessarily. But the one who has put some thought into his profile, is somewhere within the age range specified, has read yours, doesn’t say anything crude and comes up with more than a ‘hey’. This works for women too, I approach guys online in this same way (some of who don’t respond).

          If you’ve done all that and the woman doesn’t respond, she probably got bombarded with the wolf whistle emails that day or is in the middle of chatting with someone else.

          It’s never personal. Even though I know it can feel that way.

        3. Tron Swanson

          Emily,

          You seem sort of hung up on this, so let’s just say that I’ll never consider women 45 or older. It has nothing to do with my age or any age gaps. Should I cease to be able to get women within my preferred age range, I’ll simply choose to be celibate. Sex is great, don’t get me wrong, but women are a relatively small part of my life.

          Marika,

          I’d still rather be in your situation than mine. Also, back when I believed in relationships, I wanted something equal, with neither party “alpha” or “dominant” or whatever you want to call it. I believed women when they said that they wanted equality in relationships, only to watch as they gravitated to the exact sort of domineering men that they claimed to hate. Live and learn, I guess.

        4. Yet Another Guy

          What drives me insane on dating sites that have asymmetrical features that make it trivial for women to contact and filter men is that women often get irate when men do not answer system-generated messages. Women do not like it when men send two word messages. Why should a man who has something to offer a woman accept the same low-investment treatment from a woman? For example, I had to set a minimum message length on POF in order to avoid receiving flirt button-generated “Hey there :)” messages. I had women write messages a couple of days after hitting that button wanting to know why I did not respond. The cold hard truth is that women go on flirting sprees just like men on spamming sprees (there are safeguards on POF to prevent men from spamming women). Nothing irritates me more than spending an appreciable amount of time composing a thoughtful response to a system-generated message for which I never receive a reply. It is bad enough that I have to mitigate the risk of being rejected whenever I initiate contact. I sure as heck do not want to have to deal with it whenever a woman contacts me. Having to compose a message that demonstrates that one actually read the profile to which one is initiating contact definitely cuts down on “I’m kind of interested” contacts.

  6. 6
    KK

    I missed the part where her question was answered.

  7. 7
    Rocky

    First, let’s get the obligatory cynical remark out of the way: the ones that want her for more than sex are the ones she’s not attracted to.

    Now, in effort to be constructive: OP does not say a word about what is in her profile or which site she is on. A previous commenter was correct that the more sparse the profile, the more casual the vibe. Similarly, match may still be a better bet than the apps. I can virtually guarantee that your complaint – “men only want me for sex” – is not literally true. But if you want to show you’re girlfriend material, write something of substance in your profile, and when you do get a straightforward, non-sexual message from someone you are interested in, send an engaging response. Not just “how was your weekend?”

  8. 8
    Kenley

    This post is so relevant to me because I could be the letter writer as my experience has been similar. But, I just recently had a thought — which I think most of the men who contribute to this blog will probably disagree with it, but I think it may have some merit.   So, here it goes.   After receiving so many replies from men asking for FWB or NSA or one night stands,  I asked a guy why he only wanted a NSA.  I expected that he was going to say because he was so busy or he didn’t want the hassle etc.  His answer, however, which surprised me,  was because he didn’t want to get hurt.  His answer triggered a thought that perhaps some of the guys who want sex from me is isn’t about me…it’s about them.  Perhaps it’s not that they only think I am good for sex.  What if it’s actually that they only think they are good for sex 0r that sex is all they have to offer or even all they deserve.    I know that all men don’t think this way, but I bet some do.  There are a lot of men out there who really are hurting and I think we don’t often think about how that pain might manifest itself.   Perhaps only wanting sex is a way to protect themselves from the pain of being a disappointment to yet another woman.

    I am already acknowledging that not all men who only want sex feel this way,   Still, if a woman thinks about it that way, she doesn’t have to feel that something is wrong with her.  She is just dealing with a man who doesn’t have more to give.  When I think about it that way, I am less angry and annoyed with those men.

    1. 8.1
      Yet Another Guy

      In my humble opinion, guys say that kind of stuff to throw women off guard. A guy who is truly afraid of getting hurt generally avoids dating altogether. I did not date for four years after I broke up with a fiancé. Men know how to set the table for one just like women when it comes to satisfying their sexual needs. Dating a woman for NSA sex carries a risk of attachment. More men than women end up getting hurt in FWB situations. Women do not see the hurt that they inflict on men because men are raised to never show emotion.

      1. 8.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        More men than women end up getting hurt in FWB situations.

        That hasn’t been my experience and the experience of only one girlfriend I had in college. This guy was obviously much more into her and I (along with another friend) told her she had to stop hooking up with him. It was wrong. How many men would have done that?

        1. Tom10

          “More men than women end up getting hurt in FWB situations. Women do not see the hurt that they inflict on men because men are raised to never show emotion.”
           
          Yeah, I agree Emily – this seems like complete b.s. I’d like to see the provenance of such a ridiculous claim.

  9. 9
    Emily, the original

    This statement confuses me:

    Not only that, if you continue to showcase your sex appeal more as you age (when most women tone it down), you will have even a greater advantage than the younger women who show cleavage.

    If both younger and older women showcase their sex appeal, how do older women have an advantage?

    1. 9.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Per the OKCupid study, it has a greater IMPACT in attracting older men – probably because older women are less inclined to play up their looks and more likely to play up their accomplishments and interests.

      All I’m saying is what’s obvious but unpopular: a man is more interested in your figure than he is your cat, your trip to Spain, and your skiing prowess.

      The original question is answered in that the OP doesn’t have to “prove” she’s relationship material. After she attracts positive attention from her sexy photos, she has the power to have men prove THEY’RE relationship material to her. In other words, there’s nothing she should “do” or write or say to keep away the creepers.

      1. 9.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Ok. Thanks for explaining that.

        Per the OKCupid study, it has a greater IMPACT in attracting older men – probably because older women are less inclined to play up their looks and more likely to play up their accomplishments and interests.

        I’m wondering if the older women who are showing off their figures are attracting men their own age or men quite a bit older than they are. Probably impossible to know.

        1. CaliforniaGirl

          @Emily, the original,

          I was 39 when I was on Match and I had few full body pictures, on one I am in a long summer dress with open shoulders and a long slit, where on the picture my whole right leg is visible. This picture got many many likes and comments. My current boyfriend told me that his first thought was obviously about sex and not about relationship with me. He is 46. The majority of men who wrote to me where 45-55 and I’d say 50% of them lied about their age. All men who are in a 38-45 range (which is my desired age) usually have 25-35 in their desired range. They don’t even see me in their search results. In LA it’s kinda brutal, thousands of young beautiful women from all over the world, chasing a dream and struggling financially, so any older guy with decent job can have a 25 year old girlfriend, I see it all the time. My bf’s last girlfriend was 15 years younger than him and most of his friends have girlfriends who are 15-20 years younger. They are all successful men in their mid to late forties. C’est la vie.

        2. Emily, the original

          CaliforniaGirl,

           Thanks for the information.

          The majority of men who wrote to me where 45-55 and I’d say 50% of them lied about their age. All men who are in a 38-45 range (which is my desired age) usually have 25-35 in their desired range.

          That’s disappointing, but your current situation with your BF sounds good. Seven years isn’t’ that much of an age difference.

        3. Barbara

          Most of my shots show off my figure but none are bikini shots. I don’t do bikinis.

          I have one seated in a semi casual dress and stilettos that I never wear. It shows my legs and a little thigh. I’ve got one posing in shorts and a tank top, sideways. It shows my butt and legs. In the same outfit, I face the camera to show my waist and the fact that, while my breasts are average size, they’re relatively firm. I’ve got two with my bike, one while I’m riding it. These show butt, legs. I have a couple of other action shots that aren’t overtly “sexy” (ziplining, kayaking with bare arms showing musculature). And I have a head shot in my bicycle helmet and a chest-up shot of me and a girlfriend at a party.

          Because of my professional background, I know how to use images to tell a story. So I choose my photos carefully. My profile essay makes it clear that I’m more than a pretty face. But I realize that most men will never read it if my photos don’t attract them first.

          Most men who contact me–and all of the men I contact–are within my age range. But 20 and 30 somethings do try sometimes. I get significantly more messages from much younger men than from much older ones. I’m 55.

      2. 9.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        Evan is on the money. Older women make the fatal mistake of not selling it very well, which is one of the reasons why men turn to younger women. A woman does not have to look like a tart, but she needs to invoke the primal urge to pursue and conquer. Cleavage shots work because cleavage is a primal trigger. Posting photos that demonstrate that a woman has a waist that is smaller than her hips work because hip-to-waist ratio is also a primal trigger. All a woman needs to do after she has invoked primal urge is to demonstrate higher value, and a man will do whatever it takes to conquer her, which puts her in the driver’s seat.

        1. FG

          Here we go opening yet another can of worms?

          We need to define what is meant by “older” women. Since I’ve met very many women 40-55 over the past decade, a list of prevalent cases…

          a) Women who have had very few relationships, perhaps spending 20-25 years w the same guy, and thus, have limited experience, + a set pattern in relationship management, + expectations of finding what they previously had,
          b) Women who were affected by the “blues” and thought that it would be oh so easy to find a much better partner, similar to HBO’s Divorce, + having done little to spice up or prop up the relationship they had, + communication might have been a boon,
          c) A quest for a unicorn, while clearly misunderstanding their progressively diminishing value in dating terms, or latching on to “Still hot” and ignoring the often nasty effects of the close occurrence of menopause, (often seen as an age range of -15 to +1 for their prospective dates)
          d) Several cases of just plain “damaged goods”, whether it is (their own) promiscuous behavior, emotional damage (thus, forevermore unavailable in that sense),
          e) Women who did get hurt. The ex cheated, or blew a fuse, etc. Leading to fear of commitment, or ” all men are pigs”, or rather unpleasant attitudes,
          f) A % of women who are (more or less) asexual,
          g) Looking for a wallet / financial support,
          h) Having some capital due to a divorce settlement, so they become unbearably entitled (quite different from a skilled professional who made her own money; example: gal invites me over for dinner, I show up with two good bottles of red, and she complains that I brought neither flowers nor chocolates 0_o WTF)
          i) Some on OLD are… not lucky in the great looks lottery. Never mind the truck-sized gals, 20% look really old. I used to say “my 80 y.o. mom looks better than some of these” (perhaps to her credit, and some luck, and no, no fixation on my dearly departed)

          Maybe men start reverting to younger women to cut down on (sometimes hormonal) lunacy? Some women, even in their late 50s, can still be quite sexy / appealing. As an older man, I seek reasonable life experience, intelligence, culture, personality and YES, absolutely, sex appeal. But that last factor does not stand alone to create an LTR.

        2. Barbara

          P.S. I have no cleavage shots because I have no cleavage. That would require a push-up bra and I don’t wear them because I don’t want to make it seem like I have something I don’t (larger breats). That’s the same reason I update my photos if I gain or lose weight. I don’t want a man to meet me and be unpleasantly surprised.

          I don’t like it when a man shows up for a first date looking very different than his photos;  so I don’t want to do that to men.

  10. 10
    S.

    I’m so glad you posted this letter! I could have almost written it. I just made my Match profile visible again three days ago. Mostly just for kicks because I have a strong vibe that I’m going to meet my true match offline while doing some of the activities I’m passionate about.   The type of spiritual (not necessarily religious, but mindful) man I’m looking for doesn’t seem to be online.   So we’ll see.

    I didn’t get new pics or change my profile.  Men do read the profile and I did have another dating coach who I paid to vet it and it’s okay.  Men mostly refer to my photos, though. I get more photo likes than e-mails.  I like photos too, though not necessarily because of looks. I look at it and ask, “Does he look happy?” In my experience if he looks sad or mean in one of his pics, he’s not for me.  There is so much in body language too. I think men like to look tough and hard and I skip right on pass those pics. Some men are really handsome, but never smile in their photos.  I keep going to the next person.

    I realized I did put up pics that are about seven months old from when I went to the ballet with a friend.  I’m in a sleeveless black dress and I’m wearing a string of pearls. It looks a bit sexy because of my body.  When you have an hourglass figure and D-cups, it’s difficult for your body not to look sexy. I try to look classy. And I take pics mostly in the summer.  I’ve always toned down the boobage and never have cleavage showing, not in real life either. Not a prude, just cold.  When I get cold it always settles in my lungs so I keep my chest covered nearly always. If I want to emphasize the girls, I put on a good bra and a form-fitting shirt or sweater. Even a snug cotton tee will do.  That is really all the girls need to stand out, literally, lol.  Why don’t I put out the cleavage everyday? When you have a large chest you don’t really have to. Men know they’re there.  And it makes the first time they see you in a bra–or without–pretty amazing.  I don’t like to pre-empt that moment!

    Two things not really addressed the response to Nay’s letter. 1) It is possible that some men see Black women as sex only.  I’m not making it up.  One guy on the phone, out of my league but hey he called me, said he was intrigued and had never been with a Black woman before.  I thanked him for his honesty and politely declined his offer.  That only happened once.  While that is a thing, the bigger thing is a lot of men on Match (at least the ones that interact with me) are really looking for sex. In a relationship, out of a relationship, as long as they get it.   It’s really a big deal to them and as someone who does not have sex on dates 1-3, I try to think of ways of letting them know I’m not a sex-out-of-a-relationship person.

    2) I almost added waiting until relationship for sex in my profile yesterday, but it’s just too much info early on and in my opinion, not really classy or subtle to say that there.  I don’t want to lead men to think I’m something I’m not, but there isn’t any really good way to do that. You just have to show who you are in person or tell them who you are when the time comes.  I only considered doing that because 98% of men I interact with seem to have sex as their primary goal.  Some are much better at waiting or not showing that, but it’s like this beacon light under all of our interactions.  But there is nothing for it. Men are men.  As long as they too are subtle or classy about it, I accept it.

    As for whether this is an issue with someone you’re really attracted to?  Of course it is.  Even more so. But . . . it’s even more important to wait with a man you have 10 out of 10 chemistry with. Why? Because the hormones between you both are off the charts.  I freely admit, my brain wants to leave the building so I really have to stick to whatever standards I had when I was sane.  And yes, even when I’ve waited and then let my brain leave and well, sigh, it doesn’t always work out. There are no guarantees. This is what dating is.  Taking some risks.  I happen to be the type of person who needs to keep my brain somewhat present so I can really learn who this guy is and make assessments along the way.  I wish 10 out of 10 chemistry was always long lasting, but it isn’t.  Evan has always been right, right, right about that.  Even if the physical chemistry lasts, it doesn’t make up for other important things I want in a relationship that might be missing.

    So Nay,  you can’t show a man you’re girlfriend material just with photos and a profile.  What I do, I try to keep it classy but not uptight with my clothing.  I dress conservatively in real life since I’m cold a lot of the time.  I don’t want to be too different in profiles.  In the summer I have taken to wearing a lot of dresses and skirts and that’s when I take profile pics. I’m not pretending because I actually do dress like that in summer.  A guy will know whether you’re girlfriend or one night stand material when he flirts or makes subtle jokes.  They will. 🙂  If you both are vibing, cool.  Flirting can be really fun with the right person. And he’ll know you’re sexy but not going home with him on night one.  You just politely decline while still showing keen interest. It’s tricky, but if you are really attracted to a guy, you can make that known in person.  If he really likes you, he’ll wait a bit.  If he just wanted sex, he won’t.

    That’s all I’ve got.  But I hear you. We always want a quick way of sorting folks in online dating and there isn’t one. Online dating is just screening, screening, screening, and more screening until you narrow it down to the one for you.  Sometimes the screening and getting to know folks is fun.  Sometimes it’s not.  But I haven’t found any way around it, so I just wish you all the luck and hope you find your person. 🙂

    1. 10.1
      Me, Myself and I

      Me too! If a guy isn’t smiling I just am turned off. They look so angry or bored. It’s make resting bitch face.

      No smile…No date

      1. 10.1.1
        Redacted

        Funny – studies by OKC show that men get better responses when they are looking away from the camera and not smiling. All in all – rejecting someone for not smiling seems arbitrary and needlessly reduces potential mates.

        1. Callie

          Not as arbitrary as it seems. Because remember, the person who posted the pictures made the decision what pictures to post. So I’d be curious WHY they made that decision. Was it as you suggest they were following some study that shows women prefer men who don’t smile? Do they not like how they smile? Do they just never smile? Do they think it looks less “cool” to smile? Each of those particular explanations would be a negative personally for me.

          Now of course for me it isn’t a deal breaker, but it is about an entire package. If the profile is excellent it might not matter so much if they aren’t smiling. But if I’m unsure and I see no smile . . . well I’m probably not going to be interested.

          But here’s the thing, you said OKC says one ought not smile to get more women, so if that’s true and you’re more interested in getting as many women as possible than showing your authentic smiley self (obviously if smiling is not authentic for you then none of this particularly matters), that’s a very reasonable choice to make. And you likely will get more women if that’s what OKC says. But we women are also as individuals allowed to have our personal preferences and not just go along with some OKC general study on the majority of women. And that’s okay too.

        2. Nissa

          I saw that too. But I too tend to interpret a lack of smile, for lack of context, as a ‘resting bitch face’.

      1. 10.2.1
        Barbara

        My comment is number 27.

  11. 11
    Morris

    I kind of feel for this person. I can see that happening and I’m not sure what one can do. If you have a good profile, classy and not sleazy and you still end up on dates like this… all I can advise is to play along. Order whatever you want. Have him pay. At the end of the date politely say goodnight. Maybe men like this will start getting the hint after a few dates like that.

    1. 11.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Morris,

      “I can see that happening and I’m not sure what one can do.”

      I agree with you.  After reading Nay’s letter my gut feeling is that she’s not doing anything wrong, and I don’t know if there’s much she can change.  Especially if she’s a young attractive woman she’s going to get sexual attention from men.  All she can do is ignore the gross stuff and then put in a little effort to screen guys for compatibility and the common goal of an LTR.

  12. 12
    sophia

    re:What can I do to show guys I’m girlfriend material and more than just a one night stand?

    As mentioned above, there is NOTHING you can or should “do to show…girlfriend material”- you can only screen these guys out ASAP and not waste any time on them (preferably, PRIOR to meeting IRL!).  Example: I messaged a guy whose profile attracted me and he responded back with overtly physical overtones,  saying ” I’d put you in stiletto heels and a miniskirt” and asking ” how did you get to be so curvaceous?”  I gave him one chance, via a reply that tried to redirect his attention, but he answered similarly. I was done- wished him well, blocked from contact, blocked from search.

    A guy has to show interest in the invisible me in order to get the physical me. 🙂

  13. 13
    T

    The fact of the matter is, that it has nothing to do with what you do, how much cleavage you show, how you look, what you say… online dating is full of sleazy men who disrespect women. It goes with the territory. You just have to ignore it. It is unfortunate, and a sad reflection on society, but just block and move on. It is not because you have done anything but exist with a vagina. This does sound a little bit like humblebragging, to be honest… and not reflecting on the types of men you might be choosing/not screening out adequately enough too.

    Yes, there might be fewer options, and lower volume, but, you’ll find the right people in the end if you just block and move on. After 5 YEARS online dating, I met my guy. Believe me, he was in the minority.

  14. 14
    Elly Klein

    I agree with Evan, but would stop short at the bikini photo.* It’s not necessary. If you’re attractive and have a nice figure, that will be seen in dresses, shorts etc. Same goes for men. Fitted shirt that subtly shows your V-shape and/or muscles – good. Mirror selfie of your bare chest, even if you have ripped abs – not so good. A little mystery – wondering what’s under that dress/shirt – is sexy.

    *The only exception to the rule is if you’re a total beach person and it’s a big part of who you are and how you live your life and you’re hoping to attract someone equally as beachy.

  15. 15
    Adara

    Try Evan’s 2-2-2 rule (or whatever the correct name is :P) Talk to them for a while on the platform and off it, it’ll give you a better idea of what they’re like instead of having to endure a sleazy guy on a 1st date

  16. 16
    Karl R

    Nay asked: (original letter)

    “What can I do to show men that I’m girlfriend material and more than just a one night stand?”

    Your question contains your answer.  Show men that you’re girlfriend material.  Most women’s profiles are either barely filled out, or they’re filled with cliches and really generic statements that could apply to most other women on the site.  (Most men’s profiles suffer from the same problem.)

    If I had seen a profile that portrayed the woman as a cute, funny geek, I would have been all over it.

     

    Show how you’re different from other women.  The guys who are into that (and who find you attractive) will want you as a girlfriend.  But, the crude and creepy guys will still want to have sex with you.

     

    Nay asked: (original letter)

    “Why is it that men only seem to want me for sex?”

    If a man thinks you’re a potential girlfriend, then he wants to have sex with you.  If he thinks you’re not the kind of girlfriend he’s looking for, he still might want to have sex with you (and if he bothered to write you, that confirms that he does).

    If a guy is crude or creepy, rule him out immediately.  But even the nice guys (who contact you) probably think you’re hot.  Hopefully they express themselves a little better, though.

    (In some cases, a man will contact you when he’s not sure whether you’re hot … especially if you have no pictures or they’re poor quality.  In that case, he’s hoping you’re hot.)

     

    Complimenting a woman’s looks, especially if she’s beautiful, is like writing a cliche-filled, generic profile.  It’s a great way to blend into the crowd.  That’s why I recommend against it.  I found something else to compliment a woman about.

    But a lot of guys will start off by complimenting your looks, mostly because they think it’s what they’re supposed to do.

    Basically, I like to do the reverse of what many men do.  They start out with the abundant praise of the woman’s attractiveness / sexiness.  After they’ve married her, they seem to take her looks for granted.  I would typically go on a few dates with a woman before complimenting her looks.  But I let my wife know that I lust after her body multiple times per day.

    Nay, to summarize, don’t automatically rule out the guys who are a little clueless.  But feel free to rule out the crude and creepy guys without hesitation.

     

    Tron Swanson, (#5.1.1 and 5.1.1.2)

    I was going to respond, but Emily, the original (#5.1.1.3) saved me some time.  Thanks Emily.

     

    Callie, (#5.1.2.1)

    The person who initiates (typically the man) gets actively rejected more often (when the other person declines).  The person who doesn’t initiate (typically the woman) gets passively rejected more often (when the other person decides not to initiate anything).

    Personally, I find initiating more convenient.  If there are five women that I’m interested in dating, I get to ask my top choice first, my second choice next (assuming my top choice wasn’t interested), and so on.  If there are five men that you’re interested in, and your fourth choices asks you out first … what do you do?  Do you turn him down and hope one of the top three eventually asks you out?

    Generally speaking, being actively rejected is a bit more painful than being passively rejected.  Therefore, many men focus on that detail, and they wholeheartedly believe that women have more power.

    Shaukat’s example (#5.1.2, of messages received) is an inaccurate measure of power / advantage.  It’s most heavily influenced by the societal expectation that men initiate the dating process.

     

    1. 16.1
      Callie

      Hey Karl! I don’t really think you answered my question, I was asking why analysing broader trends was helpful for an individual seeking dates.

      Also I disagree that being actively rejected is more painful than being passively rejected. Your example is assuming the woman is being asked out by someone she even likes in the first place. That she’s being asked out at all. That doesn’t always happen, and in my own experience was very rare. When you see all your girlfriends getting hit on, when men come up to you only to ask about your friend, when no one ever is interested in you? That’s pretty damn painful. The assumption that all women get hit on and therefore it’s not as bad for them is really really untrue. Just as men get annoyed that women seem only interested in 10% of dudes, women feel annoyed that guys seem only interested in 10% of women. I think it might be best not to make assumptions on who feels worse pain and just agree that pain is pain. And men and women both feel it.

    2. 16.2
      Emily, the original

      Karl,

      But a lot of guys will start off by complimenting your looks, mostly because they think it’s what they’re supposed to do. Basically, I like to do the reverse of what many men do. 

      Love this! You are on it, Mr. Karl! I really enjoy reading your posts. Please do NOT go away again. We NEED you on this site!

       If there are five men that you’re interested in, and your fourth choices asks you out first … what do you do?  Do you turn him down and hope one of the top three eventually asks you out?

      I know you asked Callie this, but what I do, if my first choice doesn’t ask me out, is simply wait until another first choice shows up. I admit it’s not always the best strategy.

      Generally speaking, being actively rejected is a bit more painful than being passively rejected.  Therefore, many men focus on that detail, and they wholeheartedly believe that women have more power.

      Yes, I think active rejection would be painful, and I ask this question in all sincerity as I am curious: Isn’t dating a bit like looking for a job? You would carefully read the job ad, determine whether you were qualified, do research on the company and then only apply if you fit a majority of the requirements and though you would like the company culture? I get the feeling that a lot of men do the mass solicitation approach in dating. I would imagine (I’m guessing) it’s not effective. In terms of men approaching IRL, women can usually tell when a man is chatting her up to get her number, etc. If I am in that situation  and I want that particular man to ask me out, I help him out. I make it obvious I am receptive. If I don’t want to him to ask me out, I am vague in my responses and try to remove myself from the interaction as graciously as possible. So isn’t a targeted approach to dating, aiming at the women who are putting out the signs and signals for availability and receptivity, more effective?

      1. 16.2.1
        Karl R

        Emily, the original asked:

        “I am curious: Isn’t dating a bit like looking for a job? You would carefully read the job ad, determine whether you were qualified, do research on the company and then only apply if you fit a majority of the requirements and though you would like the company culture?”

        My experience with online dating … I did that. Except if a person had bothered to list qualifications, I probably didn’t meet least one of them. And the “job ads” were so poorly written that I couldn’t tell how her “corporate culture” differed from the next ad. And (starting out) I got a favorable email response about 10% of the time. None converted to second dates.

        Granted, my profile and emails could have been better, but I can guarantee they showed more thought and personality than 95% of the profiles/emails other guys put out there.

        That’s what men usually experience before they start doing the mass mail-outs.

        Instead, I improved my profile and emails and got up to 20% response rate.

         

        Emily, the original asked:

        “So isn’t a targeted approach to dating, aiming at the women who are putting out the signs and signals for availability and receptivity, more effective?”

        Absolutely. That’s why I vastly preferred real life dating. The “job requirements” are manageable, and the feedback makes life much easier. I was getting a woman’s email or phone number 90% of the time, and getting a first date 50% of the time. In most cases I  could tell if women weren’t interested up front.

         

        And thanks for the compliment, but work is about to get busy again.

         

        Callie, (#5.1.2.1 and #16.1)

        You’re right. I misread your question.

        Looking at broader trends is a lot less useful under most circumstances. I used a broader view to figure out which demographic would be most likely to never want kids, but if a woman was an exception, that trumped the broader trend.

        On the other hand, if someone is looking for an excuse as to why they aren’t dating, a macro-level view places blame on everybody.

         

        Callie, (#16.1)

        If you think active rejection is less painful, give it a try. When guys pass you up, ask them out. Maybe active rejection is less painful for you.

        That’s not been my experience. If a woman is passively rejecting me (for example, avoiding eye contact), that’s a lot easier to deal with. But I agree that both are painful.

        1. Callie

          Karl – Yeah that’s my feeling too, but I was wondering if there was something I was missing. I totally respect finding a general something one is looking for, that does make sense, thank you for explaining. But generally I feel people who look at the macro do so to blame others for their lack of love life, as you say.

          And it’s fair it’s not your experience, but I actually have been rejected from being active – as in I have asked people out – and I honestly don’t see a difference in the pain. I really don’t. The thing is, passive rejection can come as you describe it, a single woman not interested. But it can also come as everyone not interested. I wasn’t kidding, my highschool and university career was as I described above. In fact I once went out with a female friend and two male friends once. They were both fighting over her. A few weeks later one these my male friends asked if it was awkward knowing that they were both interested in her and not in me. I just laughed and said I hadn’t noticed. But I had. And yes it had hurt. A lot. Being passively rejected once in a while, is no big deal. Just as being actively rejected once in a while is no big deal. Knowing you will eventually not be rejected is a great way to ease the pain. But being rejected all the time regardless of if it’s passive or active? It’s really really painful.

          And I’ll add this: if you read what some of the men here post, like Tron above, how all a woman has to do is wait and men will come crawling, well it adds a further dimension of pain in the passive rejection. If it’s so easy for women to attract men, and as a woman you AREN’T attracting men, then not only do you feel like no men will ever like you, but you also feel like less of a woman. Like there’s something wrong with you. Because after all, evidently women always experience being hit on wherever they go.

          Anyway, my point is I think you’re not looking at it exactly as I do. You stressed the my and for you in your post above, and I just want to reiterate I haven’t actually said one is more painful than the other, nor insisted my personal experience is a universal one. I don’t actually think that. I think maybe certain kinds of rejection are easier depending on the individual, but as a whole I think they both, well, suck. And I guess my point is I’m not going to deny the pain of active rejection and say it’s easier (I don’t think it is), and I just don’t think it’s fair for you to judge based on your limited experience that passive is easier either. Further I just don’t know what the point is. We can talk about how men THINK passive rejection is easier and how that informs their attitudes towards women. But to deny at the very least my reality, doesn’t seem productive or just plain fair.

        2. Karl R

          Callie,

          I agree that Tron (and a large number of other men) are completely wrong when they assume that average-looking women get inundated with emails. I agree that online dating is difficult for everyone. The most attractive (of either sex) have an advantage (and different problems with it), but the rest of us have varying levels of “this is way too hard.”

          And I’m sure that Tron’s comments (if they’re taken seriously) are painful to listen to for the women who are not getting flooded with emails.

           

          Take a moment to look at what Emily wrote (#5.1.2.2) about “the averagely attractive woman is getting flooded with messages from men much older, 5 states away or possessing only 3 teeth”. (I’m sure the Trons of this world have read it)

          I have contacted quite a few average-looking women who were around my age, within 10 miles, recently active, and probably not getting swamped with well-written emails from great men.

          I didn’t even get “Hey” in response.

          I can guarantee that my emails (even the earliest ones, before I had a real clue) were better written than average. Many of the really bitter guys have also tried writing emails that were longer, more personal, and generally showing their best efforts.

          According to Emily’s statement (and countless similar statements posted throughout this blog), we are viewed as being at the same level as the guy with three teeth.

          Furthermore, Emily doesn’t come across as being angry, bitter, vitriolic, or hating men. She actually seems a whole lot sweeter and nicer than I am. Despite that, she unwittingly compared me to the guys with three teeth … without even realizing that she was doing it.

          If a sweet, nice guy compared Emily and you in with people who have three teeth, would you find the statement painful? Perhaps more painful than Tron’s statements?

           

          In addition, I’m willing to bet that these men are constantly getting passively rejected. Every so often they find one of the rare women who is not passively rejecting them, they work up the nerve to make a move, and then they get actively rejected by her.

          These guys are receiving passive rejection, day-in, day-out, no reprieve. Despite that, they’re afraid of active rejection and go to great lengths to avoid it.

          If the pain is the same, their actions are completely irrational. The only rational explanation for their behavior is that one hurts more than the other.

           

          And while I am (I suppose) validating the way guys like Tron and Shaukat feel, I equally believe that they have chosen the least productive way of dealing with the pain.  People like Emily and you are finding far more constructive ways to proceed, despite the pain.

          While that idea is way off-topic for this thread, it’s still one of the core concepts that makes me appreciate this blog.

        3. Shaukat

          Karl, I can assure you that I am neither bitter, angry, vitriolic, or any other negative adjective you can conjure up. I simply (unwisely perhaps) inserted myself into a debate Emily and Tron were having to point out a rather obvious fact: all else being equal, an average woman will receive more messages than the average man. I was also taking issue with the example you used, a repulsive woman with no power in dating, and then using that to make general claims.

          I’m not sure if you’ve ever read any of my other comments on this blog, but if you have, I’m not sure how you could lump my attitude in with the type displayed by Tron.

        4. Karl R

          Shaukat,

          Fair point. I have not read the bulk of your posts on other threads. Your comments on this thread (which seemed to support both Tron and Keith, from the other thread) may have led me to draw an inaccurate conclusion.

        5. Emily, the original

          Karl R,

          Despite that, she unwittingly compared me to the guys with three teeth … without even realizing that she was doing it.

          Perhaps I shouldn’t have written the “three teeth” statement. I was being sarcastic, and I am sorry if it was obnoxious. I am going by what other women have written on this site about their OLD experiences: that most of the messages they get are from inappropriate men (for lack of a better word). I didn’t mean a nicely worded message from a decent-looking (he showers, has on a fresh shirt) man. I meant guys dressed in Speedos or head-to-toe camouflage, next to a bear carcass (and, heck, that may be something some women like).

          I also read the Hooking Up Smart blog, and Susan Walsh quotes anthropologist Helen Fisher on her most recent post that you will like 1 out of every 9 people you go on a first date with. So only 11 percent. Which is almost verbatim what Evan quoted of 90 percent being a no-go. So you getting 10 or 20 percent response on OLD is actually pretty good.

        6. Tron Swanson

          Karl,

          I’ve had a number of female friends show me their inboxes on dating sites, and every single one of them has been crammed with messages from guys. They’re bombarded with messages on a weekly (or even daily) basis. Now, that’s “anecdata,” I grant you, but I believe that it’s symbolic of the truth.

        7. CaliforniaGirl

          My boyfriend had a cliche profile and all his pictures were with sunglasses, I usually pass profiles like that. But he wrote me a very nice and funny first message that made me smile, so I replied to him that I will talk to him when he will update his profile and told him what to improve. It was in a funny and friendly way. He updated pictures and wrote a very nice profile and received 10 first emails from women in one day. (Maybe I shouldn’t have helped him :)) So, I guess investment in a good profile pays off for both men and women.

          When I signed on Match, I received about 100 emails in the first week, after that it was around 5-10 emails a week, sometimes less. From about 100 guys only 2(!) matched my basic criteria (most men were over 50, far away or wanted kids) and I had dates with both of them. One lived with 2 roommates and was obviously broke and second told me that he usually dates 23 year olds but he made an exception for me as I look young. Well… After a month on Match and only 2 dates, my current boyfriend wrote to me and he was a winner.

  17. 17
    Nissa

    Wow, I’m surprised that the issue of how to look respectfully sexy hasn’t come up. It’s entirely possible to look amazing and sexy without a bikini or short dress and minimal cleavage. Sexy is a state of mind – look at any French woman. Look at Jeanne Tripplehorn in Sliding Doors, Kate Winslet in the Dressmaker or Catherine Zeta-Jones in Dad’s Army. All are in age appropriate clothing, looking lush and sensational. Clothing should drape the body, gliding over the skin like a lover’s stroke. It is a visual representation of how you are loving every part of your body.

    What men really need to see is that you are not fat. That’s literally the most important thing. They need to see your womanly, feminine, curvy shape. Your clothing needs to actually fit. A lot of women wear baggy clothing that makes them look more masculine without realizing it. Clothing should be close but not tight, it should lie smoothly against the skin so that your natural shape is visible.

    In general, your photos should reveal YOU – your sexy, sensational. womanly, feminine self. They should be photos where you are wearing clothing that made YOU feel sexy, womanly and every piece felt like it was really you. If you felt that when you were wearing it, then the viewer will see it, no matter how much skin it covers.

    1. 17.1
      S

      I wish men showed off their figures more in their outfits. Baggy clothes are comfy sometimes, but women like to see a tailored shirt and tailored pants, just like guys like fitted clothes on women.

       

      1. 17.1.1
        Nissa

        Omigod. Don’t get me started. Ok, too late. Yes, yes, yes, I wish men would show off their bodies more, especially men who are fit. I have been known to follow men in the grocery store to get a closer look at their shoes (I do try to be subtle, though lol).

  18. 18
    judy

    Nissa – yes I agree with you except that there are many men out there who are just jerks, to put it in plain English.

    They think that ALL women belong to them, and do not see a woman in another role than that of lover/mistress.

    I had a really good profile up with no photograph and regardless, received some really filthy texts, which I ignored.

    Some of us women have to go to work, walk the dog, go out with our friends in the evenings and have families.  We ain’t just sex objects.

    If we’re happy in our bodies, we’ll probably have higher self respect than for the guy who confines us to the sex goddess of his imagination.

     

     

     

  19. 19
    Stacy

    I didn’t want to open back up the can of worms again and maybe this approach is not helpful but I can’t help but affirm that ABSOLUTELY women have it wayyyy harder in general.

    Men seem to think that because women are usually in the role of pursued that somehow it makes life so much easier in terms of dating.  No, it makes like much easier in terms of HOOKING up and getting easy sex – and this is not something most women are interested in.  In addition, men who are desirable are just as elusive.  When I was online, I got tonssss of emails…95% of them were not even worthy of consideration because of obvious deficiencies.  An an aside, women (more often than not) get attached after sex. Men tend to just not. And please don’t mention exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule but we can still generalize safely here.  It is much more daunting and risky both emotionally (and physically) for a woman to put herself out there.  Also, statistically in most areas of the USA, there are more women than men period.  Let’s also add in the fact that women depreciate much quicker as they get older in terms of desirability (complete opposite of men).  And we are older much, much longer than we are younger.  Men on the other hand, don’t have those problems.  There is also wayyyy more pressure on a woman to upkeep herself physically while men get the benefit of being able to ‘let themselves go’ on a much wider spectrum.  Let’s also factor in that women have only a certain number of years (if she wants kids) and still bare the brunt of being a homemaker, active mother, etc.   Anytime there is a divorce, it is almost the norm to hear that the ex husband has the kid ‘every other weekend’.  Who is with the kid all the other times? Yep, women.  If a woman had her kid(s) every other weekend, people gasp in horror and she is stereotyped horribly. So if you have kid(s), count your free time goodbye unless you have a hell of a support system.  And even when married, the ‘burden’ is still heavily on the woman. So if a woman even tries to date after having a kid(s), it is even way more daunting. However, a man tends to be able to go on with life as it was before.  Lastly, women are tied to wanting commitment. Men don’t necessarily have to have it so since men are the gatekeepers up commitment, damn right they have the upper hand. Plus, sex nowadays is so freely given away that it is no longer a precious commodity. So there you have it folks.

    1. 19.1
      Stacy2

      I agree with most everything you said and there are two points I’d like to make.

      An an aside, women (more often than not) get attached after sex.

      I keep hearing this stuff but honestly who are those women who get attached to every guy they slept with? I was thinking about it the other day. Most men suck in bed, that is just a fact. I had 2 really good off the chart lovers in my entire life (and was married to one of them) but obviously at this point I’ve been with more than 2 men and guess what – all the rest of them pretty much fell somewhere on the spectrum of “I need to get out of here asap and never see this person again” and “this was fun can we watch CSI reruns now?” In none of those cases did I run any  risk at all of being oh-my-god attached. So, statistically speaking, with any new guy I am way more likely to have blah sex than get attached.

       And even when married, the ‘burden’ is still heavily on the woman. 

      It is only if you – royal you – we as women – allow it to be. Nobody is forcing this construct on women. But i continue to be amazed that so many actually voluntarily give up their lives and bodies to the losing proposition of being a suburban mom and wife.

      1. 19.1.1
        ScottH

        hmmm, what happened to Adrian?  I’m sure he would have asked you what made those two men “off the chart” lovers when everyone else sucked.

        1. Emily, the original

          ScottH,

          Have you ever hard of an erotic blueprint? You can take a quiz online to determine what yours is. There are 5 types (Energetic, Sensual, Sexual, Kinky, Shapeshifter). My theory is that, if you meet someone you are really attracted to and share his/her erotic blueprint, the sex will be fantastic. You just get each other sexually without having to discuss it.

      2. 19.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Stacy2,

        I keep hearing this stuff but honestly who are those women who get attached to every guy they slept with? …  I had 2 really good off the chart lovers in my entire life … So, statistically speaking, with any new guy I am way more likely to have blah sex than get attached.

        I’ve also only had 2 off-the-charts lovers. A handful of them were pretty good. A handful of them were mediocre. And a small percentage were awful … as in so bad I didn’t want to do it again and was prepared to face a possibly long dry spell even though available sex was right in front of me. However, unless I just didn’t like the guy and wasn’t all that into him physically, I got attached to a big percentage of them. It’s a hormonal thing for women. Of course, when the sex was super high-quality, I’d use the word addicted more than attached.

        1. KK

          I’ve never had bad sex. The range has been between good and mind blowing. Never bad. It really does take two to tango. ; )

        2. Emily, the original

          KK,

          I’ve never had bad sex.

          To each her own, I guess. But to me that’s like saying, “I’ve never seen a bad movie” or “I’ve never had a bad job.” Most experiences in life arrive in levels and degrees.

        3. Barbara

          Emily, the Original
          and KK

          I’ve never had bad sex. The range has been between good and mind blowing. Never bad. It really does take two to tango. ; )

          I’d say the same, Emily. Only my range as been between “meh” and mind-blowing. Mostly, it’s been good to mind-blowing, however.

          To each her own, I guess. But to me that’s like saying, “I’ve never seen a bad movie” or “I’ve never had a bad job.” Most experiences in life arrive in levels and degrees.

          The difference is that you can’t change a movie. What you see on screen is what you get. And, with a job, while you can change your performance and your interaction with colleagues and patrons, if you don’t like the actual job itself, you might never rise to the level of liking it.

          But sex is different. It’s you and one other person–at least for the sake of the point I’m making it is just you two. You have lots of control over whether or not you experience the interaction as good or bad. This is barring any unusual circumstances like him being into fifty shades while you are totally turned off by it.

          So, here I agree with KK; it takes two. As long as you see yourself of the star of the show, you have a really good shot at making it a hit as long as you ensure that the supporting actor shines too. That’s the way a true star operates. She makes everyone around her shine.

        4. KK

          Emily,

          “To each her own, I guess. But to me that’s like saying, “I’ve never seen a bad movie” or “I’ve never had a bad job.” Most experiences in life arrive in levels and degrees”.

          Not really a great analogy. When you see a movie, you’re going to be entertained. You sit there and watch. Passive. When you take a new job, you have to deal with many people and personalities. Sex isn’t (or shouldn’t be) passive. It’s one on one and hopefully with someone you’re attracted to. You get out of it what you put into it.

        5. Emily

          Barbara,

          I didn’t say all the sex I’ve had is bad. I wrote that I had 2 off-the-charts lovers. They were outliers. A number of my experiences were good. A number of them were mediocre. And a small amount were really bad. I don’t blame either the man or myself. There is no right or wrong way to do things, only personal preference, and with some of the them there was none or not a lot of sexual compatibility. It’s like sexual attraction, and it’s tricky. Sometimes you have it; sometimes you don’t.

      3. 19.1.3
        S

        Most female friends that I’ve had get more attached after sex and I think that is true for women in general. I think it’s an evolutionary instinct. I’ve also not know many women who have had good lovers. I worked at the Hustler store and talked openly with a lot of women about sex. I don’t think a man being good in bed really matters when it comes to emotional attachment or falling in love.

      4. 19.1.4
        Barbara

        Stacy2:

        Most men suck in bed.

        You simply can’t know this to be true. All you can know for certain is that, in your opinion, most of the men you’ve slept with have sucked in bed when they were having sex with you.

        Some other women could have had sex with those same men and had great time doing it. This could be for a variety of reasons including differences in preferences when it comes to what makes sex “good.”

        Also, although it’s your experience that “most” of the men you’ve slept with have sucked in bed, mine is the opposite. While there have been exceptions, most of the men I’ve slept with have been good to amazing in bed. It’s also true that I take it as my responsibility to ensure that I have a good time when I have sex and to help my partner do the same. I think that’s a big reason why my less than satisfactory sexual experiences have been few — I expect to have a good time in bed and actively try create one.

        Regarding suburban wives and mothers:

        I’m not at all fond of suburbs but not everyone has the same preferences. What you call “giving up their lives and bodies” to be a a suburban wife and mom is not an ecruciating choice to make for a woman who loves her husband, loves having sex with her husband, likes being a mother, and enjoys her role as her young children’s primary caregiver. This woman can be be in good mental and emotional health and feel as though she is living her dream because, to her, she is.

        And Stacy:

        I think both men and women come with their own challenges but I’d rather be a woman any day. At least among family and friends, if not so much at work, we get to express our feelings without societal pressures not to, and we form deeper human connections. For me, these aspects of being a woman are two of the most valuable aspects of being a human being and men too often miss out on being able to fully experience them.

        1. Stacy2

          While there have been exceptions, most of the men I’ve slept with have been good to amazing in bed.

          Or, may be, you just never had a really amazing lover so your baseline for comparison is that much lower. Just saying – everything is relative.

          This woman can be be in good mental and emotional health and feel as though she is living her dream because, to her, she is

          Yeah is this is the life she’s enjoying than good for her. I just feel that most women do not enjoy such life.. based on my no-scientific observations so don’t ask me to back it up with peer-reviewed studies. Just looking at my girlfriends who’ve gone down this path. I think women fall into this life without really thinking it through because “everybody else is doing it”. So, before they know it, their nice and easy life of exciting job, fun  times with friends, long runs in the park and romantic dates is replaced with 2 hour commute, sleep deprivation, dirty diapers, messy house, sleeping in meetings with dry baby food on their clothes, adding 2 sizes and getting their hair done once a year because who’s got the time? American dream comes true, and they don’t even know what hit them. They’re like “how did I end up in this place?” And they really struggle because they think they’re supposed to like it.

          All i am saying – it’s ok to acknowledge that this life actually sucks. That it is a bad deal for a woman. It’s ok to reject it, which is a better way of handling it than complaining how hard “we, women” have it. We only have it because we put on this harness ourselves! (but if you like said harness than sure keep going, clearly your’re not complaining then so the above doesn’t apply)

        2. KK

          Stacy2,

          Recently, you said you wanted a baby and that’s the only reason you even date.

        3. Barbara

          Stacy2

          Or, may be, you just never had a really amazing lover so your baseline for comparison is that much lower. Just saying – everything is relative.

          You’re right–everything is relative. So if I feel like I’ve had mostly good or amazing lovers, and I do feel this way, that’s all that’s relevant to me. I’d much rather feel as I do than feel that almost all of the sex I’ve ever had was bad. I’ve really enjoyed having sex most of the time I’ve had it. That’s a fact. Whether or not other women think a man I’ve had sex with is a good lover or not is totally irrelevant to me and my experience with him.
          Yeah is this is the life she’s enjoying than good for her. I just feel that most women do not enjoy such life.. based on my no-scientific observations so don’t ask me to back it up with peer-reviewed studies. Just looking at my girlfriends who’ve gone down this path.

          Again, your experience is relevant to your life only. Just because most of the women you know who have chosen the life path you mentioned are unhappy with their lives, doesn’t mean most of the women I or anyone else knows who chose similar paths are unhappy as well. All of us tend to associate with people who reflect our own state of life. The adage “Birds of a feather flock together” is basically true. The fact that a lot of your married friends are unhappy is likely no coincidence. Meaning, there is a reason why you associate with unhappy moms.

          I’m not judging you. I just totally believe that I and everyone am/is responsible for my/our lives, including the quality of our consensual sexual experiences and friendships and who we invite into our lives. My way of approaching is life is that if something is happening that I don’t like, or someone is behaving in a way that I don’t like, I have to examine why it’s bothering me and what I have done recently or in the (sometimes very distance) past to manifest this situation or person in my life. Through this honest self reflection, by deeply knowing myself, I can take steps to change my reality.

          On the other hand, as long as I think my situation or relationship problems are ultimately determined by what someone else does or by what has happened to me, I have no power to change my circumstances. This makes me powerless. I refuse to think that way.

          As a result, I always find a way to make things better. It may take time–even years, even decades, depending on how deeply the roots of my problem are embedded in my life–but because I’ve in fact changed situations that have initially seemed impossible, I have confidence that there is nothing I can’t turn into a benefit as long as I persevere.

          To a woman who wants to have children and longs to be a mother, the American nightmare you described is a dream. If she’s wise, she will realize that the scenarios you describe are fleeting and that the day when she might long to see her busy teen and adult children more often is not far off. So, rather than feel stuck being a mother of young children, she realizes she should enjoy the little time she has to be one.

          In addition, there is always a way to make “Me” time. A women with limited resources may have to be creative in finding ways and my have to look a little harder to find a reliable baby sitter but if this is something she wants to do–and I think she should do–she can do it. But this harks back to my philosophy that our lives are in our control, not someone else’s or at the mercy of our circumstances.

          If I believed that my life was determined by forces outside of myself, I’d think my life sucked too. But, on the contrary, I believe I have total control over my life because I have total control over how I respond to circumstances and over the people with whom I choose to associate. Therefore, to me, neither my life nor my sexual experiences suck–because I ensure that they don’t.
           

        4. Stacy2

          @ Barbara:

          Meaning, there is a reason why you associate with unhappy moms.

          I “associate” with unhappy moms because they were my friends long before they became “unhappy moms”. So, jeez, thanks for “not judging” lol. Not all of us are forced to pick friends from the list of our kids’ friends parents.

          But, on the contrary, I believe I have total control over my life because I have total control over how I respond to circumstances and over the people with whom I choose to associate. Therefore, to me, neither my life nor my sexual experiences suck–because I ensure that they don’t.

          Good luck with this line of thinking. You have total control of your life? LOL. This is the most delusional statement ever. Nobody has “total control” over their lives. You could be struck by a drunk driver tomorrow (god forbid) and spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair – as a for example. Or whatever. There’re so many externalities that affect and alter our lives and not always for the best. But if this psychobabble helps you get through the night,  more power to you.

          @KK:

          Recently, you said you wanted a baby and that’s the only reason you even date

          A baby (singular) being the operative word. I want nothing to do with the entre suburban circus that is “supposed” to come with it, this is so not my scene.

        5. Barbara

          Stacy2

          I “associate” with unhappy moms because they were my friends long before they became “unhappy moms”. So, jeez, thanks for “not judging” lol. Not all of us are forced to pick friends from the list of our kids’ friends parents.

          My point was the people around us are a reflection of us. So, given that reality, I totally can see why the friends you have in your life–whether they are moms or not–would be unhappy people.

          Good luck with this line of thinking. You have total control of your life? LOL. This is the most delusional statement ever. Nobody has “total control” over their lives. You could be struck by a drunk driver tomorrow (god forbid) and spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair – as a for example. Or whatever. There’re so many externalities that affect and alter our lives and not always for the best. But if this psychobabble helps you get through the night,  more power to you.

          I can’t control whether or not I get hit by a truck. But, as long as I’m alive and can think, I can control how I respond to getting hit by a truck. I’ve created more good luck than I can measure by believing I control my destiny. When I thought I had no control over my life and blamed other people and circumstances for my reality, I was miserable.

          If I’m deluded for believing that I am in charge of my life, that my attitudes, thoughts, and behavior are what make my life a good or bad one, I’m in good company:

          “For whatever a man might sow, that also he will reap.” –Galatians 6:8

          “‘Be the change that you wish to see in the world.” -Ghandi

          “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t—you’re right.” -Henry Ford

          “The mind is like a skilled painter.” -The Buddha

          Going back to the topic of the ability of men to be good at sex: It is precisely because I don’t look to men to give me a good time in bed that I usually have a good time in bed. I see it as my responsibility–not the man I’m with–to make sure we both have fun. So we usually do. Not only that but because I genuinely want my partner to enjoy being with me, he usually goes overboard to make sure I’m satisfied. Hence, as I originally said, I have rarely had bad sex.

          If this is delusion, I’ll have it over clarity any day.

        6. Stacy2

          @Barbara:

          It is precisely because I don’t look to men to give me a good time in bed that I usually have a good time in bed.

          Usually, when people begin to invoke the Bible and other religious sources, is where I recuse myself from a conversation due to the obvious disconnect from rationality.

          However this quote above was just way to good to pass up 🙂 Look, I think it’s perfectly ok to not look to men to give you a good time in bed. The question is though, in that case what the heck are they doing in your bed then?? That is just too funny. Like most, I can definitely have a really good time in bed all by myself 🙂 this wasn’t the question. But if a man is not adding anything to it, why even invite him to the party. In any case… I hope the reality never pokes the bubble you live in. Cheers.

        7. Barbara

          Stacy2

          Correction, I said:

          I can’t control whether or not I get hit by a truck. But, as long as I’m alive and can think, I can control how I respond to getting hit by a truck.

          But it’s more accurate to say that assuming I am obeying traffic laws and not doing anything that would normally increase the likelihood of me being hit by a truck, I may not be able to keep a truck from hitting me.

          Still, my point is that it’s not what happens to us that determines our future. It’s what we do in response to what happens to us that does. That’s what I mean when I say I am in control of my life. I am wholly responsible for my choices. And these choices, one by one, determine whether or not my life is fulfilling or not. So, as an adult, there is no one to blame if my life is unhappy, unsatisfying, etc. but me.

        8. KK

          Stacy2 said:

          “So, before they know it, their nice and easy life of exciting job, fun  times with friends, long runs in the park and romantic dates is replaced with 2 hour commute, sleep deprivation, dirty diapers, messy house, sleeping in meetings with dry baby food on their clothes, adding 2 sizes and getting their hair done once a year because who’s got the time? American dream comes true, and they don’t even know what hit them. They’re like “how did I end up in this place?” And they really struggle because they think they’re supposed to like it.”

          AND:

          “A baby (singular) being the operative word. I want nothing to do with the entre suburban circus that is “supposed” to come with it, this is so not my scene.”

          Besides the commute, I’m not seeing how where you live has any bearing on the other (negative, in your opionion) aspects of raising a child. Regardless of where you live, having a child requires at least 18 years of selfless devotion.

      5. 19.1.5
        Barbara

        Emily
        Barbara,
        I didn’t say all the sex I’ve had is bad.

        I didn’t say you did. I was just agreeing with KK that it takes two to make sex enjoyable. And, now that I think of it, I can only recall two way off the chart sexual experiences I’ve had and they both occurred fairly recently–after my divorce from a 22-year marriage. The rest were mostly good to very good, compared to those other two.

        I chalk this up to either my memory being unreliable after over 22 years or–more likely–men over 50 being better lovers than the men I dated in my twenties because the men who are my age now, just like me, have had more sex than they’d had when they were younger. So, like me, they’ve gotten better at it. This is true for me even though I only had one partner for 22 years–my ex. The adage “practice makes perfect” applies even though I “practiced” with the same man.

        1. Emily, the original

          Barbara,

          So, like me, they’ve gotten better at it.

          I don’t even think skill has much to do with it. It’s just whether or not both people click in terms of what they like. I won’t get too graphic, but about 5 years ago I hooked up with a guy and knew fairly soon into it that I did not want to hook up again. Let’s just say the movement from one thing to another … was very, very slow.  That’s what he liked, not what I did. We were on completely different wavelengths sexually, whereas with the guy before him, the sex was fantastic. One guy was good or bed or skilled or unskilled in bed. My preferences just matched up with one and not the other.

        2. Emily, the original

          wasn’t good or bad

      6. 19.1.6
        SparklingEmerald

        Actually, the reverse is true for me,  if I find myself getting “attached” to a man, then I want to have sex with him.  The fact that I DESIRE him physically is a sign that I am already feeling attached.  There are men that I have found attractive, but if there was something off-putting in their character or personality, or I sense that they are JNITM, then I can intellectually acknowledge their attractiveness, but I will not feel connected to them, nor will I have a desire to share a bed with them.  So sleeping with a man does not “cause” me to feel attached, it is a result of the attachment I was already feeling, and the attachment continues to deepen as we get to know each other more.  Also, during that time, we are also spending time outside of the sack, that continues the deepening of the attachement.  Developing and sharing “inside jokes”, cooking together, binge watching TV snuggled up on the coach, doing cross word puzzles together, etc.  all fuel the attachment that started BEFORE sex.  Perhaps some women attribute the attachement feeling SOLEY to the sex, and don’t consider the fact that it was all the other things that contributed as well.  Also, getting dumped immediatey AFTER sex hurts MOST * women more than getting dumped by someone they didn’t sleep with.    *Yes, I know that there are women who have detached sex with men, and feel nothing afterwards, regardless if the relationship continues, but I am speaking in generalities here.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          This question is not necessarily directed at SparklingEmerald, but what is it with women and cooking together? I see the desire to cook together on a ton of online dating profiles. I can cook reasonably well for a guy (I am much better at prep and grilling), and I do not mind cooking dinner. However, cooking together is nowhere near the top of my list of things that I want to do with the woman in my life, nor do I necessarily consider it to be romantic. Cooking is something that I do because it beats starvation. 🙂 I am a clean as I go cook. I dislike having a big mess to clean up after I am finished cooking. My ex used to drive me insane because she just piled things up as she cooked. The stove was usually nasty by the time she was through cooking, and I would have to remove a big pile of items from the sink in order start the cleaning process. I preferred to cook than to have to clean up after her when she cooked. I swear that this idea must come from women’s journals because I do not recall ever seeing it mentioned in publication targeted at men.

        2. KK

          YAG,

          Cooking together is a fun, romantic way to start the evening. Turn on some music, sip on some wine and enjoy making something together.

          PS – I clean up as I go along too. : )

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Playing guitar for the woman in my life (a.k.a. “my woman” because I prefer to be exclusive) is romantic. Cooking dinner with her is bit too pedestrian for me; however, if it makes her want me more, who am I to complain? 🙂

        4. SparklingEmerald

          Actually YAG – I PREFER cooking by myself, esp considering the size of our kitchens, but my fiance loves to cook as well, so I end up sharing this with him.  Sometimes I cook solo, sometimes he cooks solo and sometimes we cook together.

          We’ve been together over 2 years now, so it has become more just part of our life together, rather than some romantic thing.

          I am also health conscious and prefer cooking in to eating out, so I control the fat, sugar and salt content of my food.

          Of course I enjoy dining out occasionally, and for special ocassions, but for nutritional reasons, I don’t like to eat out to much.

          But believe it or not, as much as I enjoy romantic gestures, I actually bond through doing day to day activities together.  When I find myself at the hardware store shopping for mundane household items with a guy,  folding laundry together, making a grocery list,  then I really feel like our relationship has moved beyond dating and into relating.

      7. 19.1.7
        Barbara

        Stacy2
        @Barbara:
        It is precisely because I don’t look to men to give me a good time in bed that I usually have a good time in bed.
        I don’t care what the source is–the Bible or whatever–if it provides a valid point of view, I’ll consider it.

        According to you most of the men you’ve been with provided you with these experiences:

         “I need to get out of here asap and never see this person again” and “this was fun can we watch CSI reruns now?”

        On the other hand, I’ve enjoyed having sex most of the times I’ve had it. So, since I like enjoying sex, I’m going to stick with my attitude about it because it’s been working for me so far: I give what it is I want to receive.

        If I’m living in a bubble in which I get to have fun having sex, I like it in here. I don’t expect “reality” to poke a hole in my experiences because I’m the one creating my experiences, not some thing or some force outside of me, such as the man I’m with or some other “reality generator,” which, to me, sounds more like a god. As it happens, I don’t believe in those even though I quoted the bible.

        Usually, when people begin to invoke the Bible and other religious sources, is where I recuse myself from a conversation due to the obvious disconnect from rationality.

        Just because someone says they don’t  believe in religious sources, if they believe that some person or some thing outside of them is responsible for giving them pleasure, they are, fact, heavily invested in the belief of an external provider of good (i.e. a god).

    2. 19.2
      Shaukat

      I’d personally still prefer that than being rejected or ignored at the rate men do, so I sympathise with you, but neither of us can change how the population or opposite sex works.

      Marika, I commend you for honestly stating the obvious conclusion. I really don’t know why this topic generates so much controversy and push back from some commenters here. Even Karl R, who normally employs superb logic, erroneously concluded that someone making an obvious point about who has the upper hand in dating must be bitter, angry, etc.

      Look, if a woman stated that men generally have it easier when it comes to sexual assault, and that a man can live his entire life without having to worry about street harassment or rape, I wouldn’t say she was just angry, bitter, or resentful. I’d say she was simply stating an unfortunate fact of life.

      Hence, I’m not sure why so many women insist on denying the obvious: that when it comes to dating, especially OLD, an average woman can simply put up some decent pics and wait for the messages to roll in. Even if the majority are not a match, she can still sift through the fifty messages, find the few who are desirable, and then go on several dates which she doesn’t even have to pay for. I find it hard to believe that all those guys sending messages are pervs, lechers, or unemployed losers. If, as Stacy says, 95% of all guys messaging are deficient, then the problem might actually be you.

      At any rate, it doesn’t even matter of only 5% are desirable. Here the analogy to an employer or small business owner might be useful. If an employer puts up an job advertisement he/she may receive hundreds of applications, and many of them would be from unqualified candidates, people who didn’t read the ad properly, and complete misfits. I’m sure it would be tedious to sift through them all to find that gold nugget. But honestly, would you rather be the employer or the poor schmuck sending out applications? Exactly.

      1. 19.2.1
        Barbara

        Shaukat:

        an average woman can simply put up some decent pics and wait for the messages to roll in

        One important caveat I’d add–and not based on my personal experience, because I only started online dating when I was post-50, but based on what other women and dating articles I’ve read have said–after, say, the age of 40 or so, women are not flooded with messages, even if they are, by societal’s standards, physically attractive.

        I do get flooded with “winks” and “flirts” and “likes” on sites geared toward older daters or black daters (because I’m black) and I get a significant number of those on sites that cater to the general population. But, all in all, the number of personal messages from real men–not scammers–are relatively few compared to the number of messages I send out, which is at least two a day.

        Generally, I receive at least one real (not scam) response per day to messages I send out and I usually send out more than my baseline number of two.

        I’d like to hear from other women over 40 years old, and especially those over 50, to see if my experience is unique in terms of not being “flooded” with unsolicited messages.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          Barbara

          If women over 40 are not finding their mailboxes flooded with messages on dating sites, why do so many women take a week or more to reply to an initial contact message? I am not talking about women who are extremely casual dating site users. I know that some women have rules that dictate that they have to wait a prescribed period of time before responding, but delayed response is interpreted by a man as an attempt to lower his market value (i.e., he sees himself being ordered behind other men in a queue, as a proverbial “sexy on standby” so to say). No man who is worth having wants to have his market value reduced; therefore, most reject delayed responses. I know that I reject delayed responses as a rule.

        2. Malika

          Hi YAG:

          The question was directed at Barbara, but i can also offer an answer. I like to limit my correspondence to three men max at a time as i feel that i am otherwise diluting my attention too much. So even if a very promising man e-mails me, i like to wait and see whether the contact with the other men, who wrote to me earlier, pans out. A more benign reason than playing games. I am sure that many women have the same reason for their delayed response.

        3. Barbara

          Yet Another Guy
          If women over 40 are not finding their mailboxes flooded with messages on dating sites, why do so many women take a week or more to reply to an initial contact message?


          I have no idea why some women other than me whatever they do, unless one of them tells me personally or I read her first-person explanation.

          I my case, regarding message response, I usually respond instantly, and definitely within 24 hours. This is because I am really serious about finding my true and last love. So I don’t hesitate to to connect with a man he could potentially be that guy. I don’t mess around with these matters because I realize that men, just like I do, appreciate politeness and a show of genuine interest in getting acquainted with them.

          If I don’t respond right away, it’s due to time constraints and wanting to reply to a thoughtful message with a thoughtful reply, instead of a rushed, auto-correct-flub-riddled one.

          There are exceptions to my general response time: I don’t respond to single word messages or to those consisting of a few words relaying generic messages like “I like your smile.”

          If I reply at all to obvious fraud, it’s to say: “I don’t communicate with spammers.” Then I immediately block to sender. 

          If someone has tried to communicate with me with a more substantive message (it doesn’t have to be more than a sentence, if it shows an effort was made to craft a message intended for me personally–for instance, if he’s obviously read my profile) but his writing in the message and/or his profile is riddled with spelling and grammar errors and/or for some other reason I’m interested in him, I reply: “Sorry but I don’t think I’d make a good match for you but I wish us both luck in our search.” That way I insinuate that I wouldn’t be good for him, not vice versa, which, I hope is gentler than me indicating that he’s not a good match for me.

          In a recent case like that, instead of immediately rejecting the sender, I figured, why not give him a chance; he could be a very nice against-my-type man who would step up to the plate if invited. So I replied: “I’m not trying to be insensitive or impolite, just honest: I’m only interested in men who can express themselves with proper English and grammar in writing and when talking. It’s one of my deal breakers. If you’re that kind of man, then, yes, we can talk if you’d still like to.” He replied: “well you were insensitive, so that was a dumb reply.”

           No man who is worth having wants to have his market value reduced; therefore, most reject delayed responses. I know that I reject delayed responses as a rule.

          If I delay a response to a man, I apologize upfront for doing it. I’ve never had a man not respond after that.

          I only reject delayed responses after a pattern is established. Generally, I’ll accept one to three delays because life happens and I can understand that. I wouldn’t want to miss out on a potential good match just because initially, I, a total stranger to him, wasn’t high on his priority list.

          But after about three delayed responses, if I get another, I use my standby rejection reply: “I don’t think I’d make a good match for you.” I use the same criteria when a man delays setting up a follow-up date, only I call him to say it. Like you indicated, I think I’d be disrespecting and devaluing myself to allow someone to be repeatedly nonchalant about getting to know me.

          I still would like to know if women over 40 and especially over 50 get a significant number of unsolicited messages. I recall reading an article that said that, like me, most don’t. Also, I think I read a dating coach who got married for the first time when she was over 40 say it. But I’d love to hear the experience of a non-dating-coach woman who is actively online dating right now–versus someone who tried or tries it sporadically. None of my single friends are in that category. So I can’t get this intel from them.

        4. Barbara

          Malika

          I like to limit my correspondence to three men max at a time as i feel that i am otherwise diluting my attention too much. So even if a very promising man e-mails me, i like to wait and see whether the contact with the other men, who wrote to me earlier, pans out.

          I think I remember you saying you’re in your 30’s right? As I’ve mentioned a few times on this blog, I’m 55. So the times when I have so many message “balls” in the air that I can’t keep up are rare. Even if I had 10 men messaging me at once, I’d reply to all of them because as Evan says “He’s not real until he’s your boyfriend” and I feel I have no time to waste when it comes to finding my “one.” So I keep all viable options open.

          Still, in reality, I’ve never had more than four (I think) streams of messages going at once and usually I’ve initiated contact. That’s why I’m interested in knowing if my messaging experience is typical for a woman in my age bracket.

        5. KK

          Hi Barbara,

          I’ve never done OLD, but I’ve heard all about it from one of my best friends who’s been trying it out for a few months. She’s 42 so not sure if her experience is helpful to you or not. She gets tons of unsolicited contact. The problem is, they rarely fit her criteria. When she complained about the men that were contacting her, I kinda laughed and thought she was over exaggerating or being too picky. That was, until she showed me some of these guy’s profiles. She was definitely not exaggerating or being too picky. Lol. And I’m not trying to be ugly, but they were nowhere close to compatible in age or looks or intelligence or any combination of all three. In three months or so, she’s accepted only two first dates. She wasn’t interested in second dates. So, yes, she gets inundated with lots of inbox messages but it hasn’t been a great experience so far.

        6. Barbara

          YAG
          If women over 40 are not finding their mailboxes flooded with messages on dating sites, why do so many women take a week or more to reply to an initial contact message?

          Marika–who is in her thirties (?) said: 

          I like to limit my correspondence to three men max at a time as i feel that i am otherwise diluting my attention too much.

          I think her reply brings up something that might be relevant to your situation: You’ve said you don’t date women your age. I bet you’d get fewer delayed responses if you open your mind to dating women your age or a few years older. Just like you are (according to you) a robust 55 year old man, there are plenty of vivacious 55 to 60 year old women. If you widened your dating pool to include them, your message response time would probably be fairly quick.

          If my friends and I are indicative of most women our ages, women like us aren’t usually interested in men much older or younger. Women like me–fit, active, and possessing a youthful spirit and attractiveness (according to others, anyway), as well as the wisdom time brings–seldom meet men our ages who share our physical activity level and values. One way we show our awareness of how rare it is to come across these kind of men is to return their messages fairly soon

        7. Barbara

          KK

          If you wouldn’t mind following up with your friend for more details, I’d appreciate it. I have a 52 year-old friend who put up her profile for the first time last week. She told me she was “flooded” with messages like your friend was and she hadn’t even written an essay or posted photos.

          When I asked her to elaborate, like some dating sites do, she counted “Flirts,” “Winks” as messages. If I counted those then, yes, I too am “flooded” with “messages.” And, like your friend and mine, almost none of them are from men I’d even consider due the very same reasons you mentioned. Plus, the fact that a man would send me one of those effortless “messages” in and of itself ensures that I won’t contact him, even if he looks great. I wouldn’t know if he has a nice profile essay or not because I wouldn’t bother to check him out.

          When I mention messages, I’m talking about the kind someone took the time to write, not an auto-generated “Wink” or “Flirt.” I’m interested in knowing if your friend is flooded with messages that the sender actually composed.

          Thanks

        8. Barbara

          KK

          I said:

          When I mention messages, I’m talking about the kind someone took the time to write, not an auto-generated “Wink” or “Flirt.” I’m interested in knowing if your friend is flooded with messages that the sender actually composed.

          For Match.com “People Meet” affiliates SeniorPeopleMeet (now OurTime), BlackPeopleMeet, LatinoPeopleMeet, etc., when someone clicks that they “Like” your photo, a pseudo messages is auto-generated as well: “I like your photo” or “Your photo really stands out” or some other non-message.

          Again, these kinds of “messages” are not what I’m talking about. I’m interested in how many authentic messages 40 and 50 something women receive because I’m certainly not “flooded” with those, while I receive a constant stream of the fake kind.

        9. KK

          Hi Barbara,

          My understanding is that she’s receiving lots of actual “messages”. But like you mentioned, most are not even worthy of a reply. Lots of “Hey” or “You’re cute” or “Text me. Here’s my number”. She responds to well written messages. As to what you and YAG were talking about regarding delayed responses, she was telling me about a guy just yesterday that had contacted her several times over the weekend. She had been out of town all weekend and checked her inbox Monday morning. This guy had sent a very nice, well written message Friday. Saturday he sent a second message telling her he hopes she responds and that he’s really looking forward to hearing from her. Sunday he sent a third message telling her she needs to adjust her standards because she’s not all that and Monday morning he sent a fourth message that simply said good morning. Lol! We were laughing about it and she said she was glad she didn’t get his original message when he sent it because she might have actually ended up going out with this fruit cake.

        10. Shaukat

          Plus, the fact that a man would send me one of those effortless “messages” in and of itself ensures that I won’t contact him, even if he looks great.

          You  should try and understand why a man might feel compelled to do this. Men generally have to put in far more effort in OLD than women; as I stated elsewhere, the latter often just have to put up a pics, write a generic profile, kick back with a cocktail, and wait for the messages to roll in. If a man is constantly sending messages but not getting the response rate he might like, then he might at some point feel discouraged and decide to send a wink to test the waters first, so as to not waste anymore time. Given the huge discrepancy in the effort expended by men and women in OLD, you should be a bit more understanding, since your current policy means that you could be missing out on a great guy.

        11. KK

          Good point, Shaukat.

          If a guy sends a “wink”, what harm is there in checking out his profile and sending a “wink” back, if interested. Then the ball is back in his court and if he doesn’t step it up from there, move on.

        12. Yet Another Guy

          Barbara

          I prefer to date women who are my junior because my ex is seven years my junior and I have high school-age children; however, I am not delusional about it. I almost always tell women who are much younger than forty-five that I am flattered, but I am looking for a woman with a few more miles in her rear view mirror. 🙂

          With respect to a woman wanting a man her own age, I beg to differ on that one. I decided to run an experiment based on our exchanges. The results were eye-opening to say the least.

          Over the last couple of weeks, I have been contacting women who are within five to ten years of my age on both sides of my age. The response rate and overall level of enthusiasm in the two different groups has not been remotely close. In fact, the results have been almost unbelievable. The women that I contacted who were between five and ten years my junior were definitely what any man who knows me would consider to be dating down. They were five to sixs in the looks department, most could afford to lose more than 10 pounds, and not one held more than an undergraduate degree (I hold a graduate degree). All of the women who I contacted that are five to ten years my senior are cream of the crop looks and education-wise (masters, JD, and Ph.D.). I did not realize how smoking hot sixty-something women could be until I ran this experiment. A lot of these women look better than women fifteen to twenty years their junior. With the junior group, I was able to achieve a 50% response rate through selective targeting and patience on responses. Now, were are talking about women who are forty-five to fifty years old, not young hotties. With the older group, I was often unable to compose a message before they contacted me. In all cases, I saved each woman as a favorite before contacting her. I would like to add that many of the women in the senior group have lower age range bounds that are five or more years my senior.

          So, as you can see, older women just like older men prefer younger, out of peer age group younger. The sweet spot in the senior group has continued to be sixty-two plus/minus one. The women that I contacted in this group are mostly non-retired professionals who often earn more than I earn. A well-educated mid-fifties guy who is not a complete toad, has a full head of hair, and still has a somewhat muscular build can clean up if he is willing to date women who are sixty-one to sixty-three years old. I met one of these women last weekend, and she is hotter in person than she is in her photos. I am talking about yoga hottie body hot. She wants a second date, but I cannot get past the fact that she has a grandchild that is only a few years younger than my daughters. It is just too much of a paradigm shift for me.

        13. KK

          YAG,

          I could’ve sworn that just yesterday you said you were dating someone exclusively. You said you play the guitar for her and specifically referred to her as your woman. I didn’t realize exclusive meant dating others on the side. Lol.

        14. Barbara

          YAG

          I’m glad you’re giving older women a shot. I knew you’d be pleasantly surprised if you did.

          The women who I contacted who were between five and ten years my junior were definitely what any man who knows me would consider to be dating down. They were five to sixs in the looks department, most could afford to lose more than 10 pounds, and not one held more than an undergraduate degree (I hold a graduate degree).

          I only contact men who’d I’d potentially actually want to have a relationship with. So I’m not sure why you contacted women you felt weren’t up to your level along various measures. What was your reasoning? 

          …many of the women in the senior group have lower age range bounds that are five or more years my senior. So, as you can see, older women just like older men prefer younger, out of peer age group younger.

          If I’m understanding your meaning, then what you’re saying is only true if most of these women’s upper age bounds were below their own ages as well. Were they? If not, if they are simply open to dating men older OR younger than them, then you can’t be certain they have a preference either way. Even if the ones you contacted do, they may not represent most women.

          Personally, in my profile, I’ve listed my range as six years under or above my age. I went on a date with a 47 year old, but I could feel the age difference too strongly to be very open to doing that again.

          The sweet spot in the senior group has continued to be sixty-two plus/minus one… I met one of these women last weekend, and she is hotter in person than she is in her photos. I am talking about yoga hottie body hot. She wants a second date, but I cannot get past the fact that she has a grandchild that is only a few years younger than my daughters. It is just too much of a paradigm shift for me.

          I hope you reconsider. Evan has said it’s a good idea to try dating outside of your “type.” Here for the sake of your status as the father of young children, you might be overlooking a woman with whom you can have a fulfilling relationship well past the time when your children have gone on to live their own lives without you being an integral part of them. Given that, it might be a good idea to give her a few more dates so you can make a decision based on compatibility versus your individual parental statuses, which is likely to become less of an issue as you age. This is in line with Evan’s advice to take a long range view when it comes to who’s relationship material.

          Plus, as a woman, the physiological differences between you two will level out as you get older. Meaning, if she stays health-conscious, she’ll grow even closer to your age then than she seems now. It would not be unusual for your body, as a man, to wind up having a “real age” that’s older than hers. 

        15. Barbara

          Shaukat and KK

          I said:

          … the fact that a man would send me one of those effortless “messages” in and of itself ensures that I won’t contact him, even if he looks great.

          Shaukat, you said:

          You should try and understand why a man might feel compelled to do this. Men generally have to put in far more effort in OLD than women; as I stated elsewhere, the latter often just have to put up a pics, write a generic profile, kick back with a cocktail, and wait for the messages to roll in.

          Not true for me, at age 55, but I addressed this already. I wanted to reply to this:

          …you should be a bit more understanding, since your current policy means that you could be missing out on a great guy.

          I agree with you and KK. Actually, as soon as I hit “send” here, I realized my statement wasn’t accurate. In fact, I do check out the profiles of guys I find attractive who solely “Wink,”  “Flirt” and send other auto-generated “messages.” Like you said, I don’t want to miss out on a great guy just because he didn’t right me a well-thought-out message. 

          But, I have to say, I can’t recall reading the profile of a man who sent an auto-message and being pleasantly surprised by its contents. Their profiles have been either text-less or almost so, giving me nothing to go on.

          So, given their lack of effort when it comes to trying to attract a woman, I don’t bother to send reply to their auto-messages with a real one. I’m not interested in a man who hasn’t tried to create a profile that communicates that he is as committed to finding someone with whom to have a serious relationship as I am.

        16. Barbara

          KK

          This guy had sent a very nice, well written message Friday. Saturday he sent a second message telling her he hopes she responds and that he’s really looking forward to hearing from her. Sunday he sent a third message telling her she needs to adjust her standards because she’s not all that and Monday morning he sent a fourth message that simply said good morning. Lol! We were laughing about it and she said she was glad she didn’t get his original message when he sent it because she might have actually ended up going out with this fruit cake.

          Isn’t it great when you realize you’ve dodged a bullet?

        17. Barbara

          I said:

          I’d like to hear from other women over 40 years old, and especially those over 50, to see if my experience is unique in terms of not being “flooded” with unsolicited messages.

          The two articles linked below explain my experience and that of the OP when it comes to her receiving more than her fair share messages from men who see her strictly as an exotic sex object. Among other things, both articles say that of all the people using online dating, black women receive the fewest messages and the fewest replies to their messages–including from black men.

          Well, duh. The obvious culprit is at play in OLD World (obvious if you’re black, that is): systemic racism. Click the link if you think I’m talking about prejudice, as in “I don’t like black people.” I’m not. I’m speaking of something much deeper, nuanced, and insidious.

          The writers of both articles conclude that online dating is not a venue black women should even try to use. I can see why they feel that way. But if I stopped using everything that’s racist in our society, I’d never step outside, read, or use the Internet.

          So, as with everything, I choose to make the best of what I have on hand. In this case, while online dating may not work for me the way it works for a woman who isn’t black or in my age bracket, my goal is singular: to find a man with whom I’m compatible and with whom I will enjoy spending the rest of my life. I’m not too particular about where I meet him and I’m not going to cut off a potential venue for meeting him just because, like practically everywhere else in the world, it’s infused with racism.

          I will add, that BlackPeopleMeet and LatinoPeopleMeet (which I have yet to subscribe to) obviously have way more black men on them than mainstream sites like Match, although non-black men subscribe to them as well.  And, unlike on Match or POF or OKCupid, all the men on those two sites are actively seeking women of color. Still, the pickings are slim on those niche sites too when it comes to me receiving quality messages. Messages I get. Quality I don’t.

          Nevertheless, as I said, I won’t give up. As the saying goes, quitters never win and winners never quit–and my goal is to ultimately win in love.

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/10/12/black-women-face-prejudice-every-day-i-dont-need-it-in-online-dating-too/?utm_term=.62f05a1815db

          Why Online Dating Doesn’t Work For Black Women

        18. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          I am currently not in an exclusive situation. The reference to playing guitar for my women was made in the abstract, as in she is my woman because we are exclusive; therefore, I am not sharing her with another man.

          I have had a lot of first dates since reentering the date pool. I never date a woman more than one time unless there is a very high probability that I can and want to be exclusive with her. If we do not hit it out of the park from a mutual desire point of view on the first date, there is never a second date. That rule is a takeaway from my marriage. I foolishly thought that my desire for my ex would grow because everything else was right. It never did, and she knew it. My lack of desire for her eventually resulted in the loss of intimate contact in my marriage (i.e., no woman wants to be intimate with a man she knows does not truly desire her). The last decade of my marriage was spent in this state.

          For the men reading this blog, a decade is a long time to go without a woman’s touch. In fact, it is so long that a man forgets what it is like to be passionately kissed by a woman. As I mentioned earlier, having to wait until I am exclusive with a woman and she is emotionally ready to take that step is a walk in the park.

        19. ScottH

          @YAG:

          You said: “I never date a woman more than one time unless there is a very high probability that I can and want to be exclusive with her. If we do not hit it out of the park from a mutual desire point of view on the first date, there is never a second date.”

          I used to think like this too but after reading Evan, I would go for 3 dates if we got along reasonably well and I found her to be reasonably appealing on the first date.  I think your standards are way too high and you might be missing out.  I understand that this is a result of your marriage and I came from a similar situation as yours and it was a living hell.  I dated 2 women long term where we didn’t have the chemistry on the first date that you mentioned.  It did develop over the next few dates.

        20. Barbara

          ScottH @YAG:

          YAG: “… If we do not hit it out of the park from a mutual desire point of view on the first date, there is never a second date.”
          ScottH: …I would go for 3 dates if we got along reasonably well and I found her to be reasonably appealing on the first date.  I think your standards are way too high and you might be missing out…I dated 2 women long term where we didn’t have the chemistry on the first date that you mentioned.  It did develop over the next few dates.

          I mostly agree with you ScottH. Except, if YAG is really feeling absolutely no chemistry for a woman then it really could be a done deal. For me and others who’ve commented about the topic of chemistry on this blog, chemistry can’t grow where there is none.

          But there is a vast difference between feeling zero chemistry versus craving the mind-blowing chemistry you, YAG, felt when you first kissed a woman you were physically attracted to after a decade of being deprived of sex by a woman to whom you weren’t attracted. In fact, Evan warns, and it has been my experience, that 10’s in chemistry usually make bad matches for the kind of people he typically coaches and the kind of person I am–those with a pattern of attracting and being attracted to 8-10’s (on 1-10 scale) and, as a result, have consistently had failed relationships.

          YAG, based on your standards regarding first-date attraction and on your inclination to not date the hot 60-plus year-old you mentioned in a reply to me because she is a grandmother, I wonder if your fear of repeating the past is causing you to erect unreasonable barriers to having a happy relationship in the present.

          Rather than focusing on compatibility first as Evan suggests, from what you’ve repeatedly indicated on this blog, you seem to be comparing every woman you date to your ex-wife and allowing fear of replicating your past experience with her to color your perception of women in the present.

          Referencing Evan once again, he often cautions us to view each new date with fresh eyes, not through the lenses of the way former partners were.

          I’ve found that taking action based on fear is always a bad idea because fear impairs judgement and therefore can prevent us from making wise choices that may be beneficial to us and enable us to lead happy lives. To paraphrase someone I admire: “A coward cannot have any of his desires fulfilled.”

          I’m not being derogatory by referencing a quote about cowardliness. We all unconsciously operate from a base of fear sometimes. Our challenge is to recognize when we’re doing so and manifest the courage we innately possess. As the quote insinuates, courage is fundamental to experiencing true happiness.
           

        21. Yet Another Guy

          @Barbara

          While I will admit that my desire for strong mutual desire on the first date is driven by past experiences, my desire to not a date a grandmother is due to having lived a very different life than most grandmothers within my age range. For example, I often meet women my own age who have adult children and school-age grandchildren. These women got married in or immediately after college, and their children married and started their own families in their twenties. I have lived a very different life. I was a bachelor until age 37 (that is one year younger than the age at which a man risks crossing over into the realm of perpetual bachelorhood). I sowed my oats when I was young. I did not have to wait until I was in my forties or fifties to explore my sexuality like a lot of men who married and started a family early. That is why I behaved very differently than most separated men (i.e., I did not act like a man who was just let out of prison 🙂 ). I can divide my age in half today, and that number is still smaller than number of women with whom I had sexual intercourse before I married, significantly smaller. In essence, our life experiences up to around age 22 were the same. From that point forward, we have lived very different lives. We have very little in common other than possibly mutual attraction.

      2. 19.2.2
        Barbara

        YAG

        I can divide my age in half today, and that number is still smaller than number of women with whom I had sexual intercourse before I married, significantly smaller. In essence, our life experiences up to around age 22 were the same. From that point forward, we have lived very different lives. We have very little in common other than possibly mutual attraction.

        I just think that having something in common with another goes much deeper than whether or not we’ve led similar lives in the past or share similar lifestyles and interests now. Personally, most of all, I’m seeking a man who shares the core values I hold dear–being respectful of self and others, courageous, self-reflective and aware, confident yet humble, dedicated to maintaining physical, mental and emotional health. I’m seeking a man who cherishes me and our relationship and who demonstrates it every day. These are qualities that matter to me and that, I think, will matter and endure in the long run. Whether or not our lives are similar in other respects is a bonus, but far from essential.

        Once again, I’ll reference Evan. How man times has he indicated that his wife and he are different in several ways that, initially, would have made him think they would never have made a good match. But he found the love of his life when he recognized what was essential and what was superficial when it came to what lasting relationships are built upon.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Barbara

          My question here is why does a woman my chronological age or my senior provide the things that you outlined above better than a woman who is five to ten years my junior? The answer to that question is that she does not. It merely benefits a woman my age or older who wants a man my age for me to make that choice.

        2. Barbara

          YAG

          “My question here is why does a woman my chronological age or my senior provide the things that you outlined above better than a woman who is five to ten years my junior?”

          My point was that in terms of a relationship’s potential to be sustained and happy in the long run, superficial criteria like similar histories and life circumstances are not important. I wasn’t speaking about age difference per se in this case, although my comment was in reply to a message in which you were.

      3. 19.2.3
        S.

        You italicized the word ‘average’.  I’m not sure what that means.  Barbara and I are Black women.  Is the Black woman average on a dating site? Does average mean looks? Age?

        I don’t know. I certainly have never received 50 messages in my online dating inbox.  And I’m not sure if how many messages you receive is a measure of one’s averageness.

        It’s just interesting that you italicized the word.  What did you mean by it? I’m simply curious.  I also ask because maybe the women here aren’t average or aren’t the women getting 50 messages a day which is why they refute that point.

        1. Barbara

          Sharkat and S

          Shaukat you said: “The average woman can simply put up some decent picks and wait for the messages to roll in”

          To which S replied: It’s just interesting that you italicized the word (average). What did you mean by it? I’m simply curious. I also ask because maybe the women here aren’t average or aren’t the women getting 50 messages a day which is why they refute that point.

          I’m interested in your reply as well, Shaukat. I’ve already linked to articles about black women’s experiences online. The one from the Washington Post includes research findings.

          Since no one has responded from personal experience to my question about women over 40, and especially those over 50, being “flooded” with messages or not, I’m guessing I’m the oldest woman commenting on this post.

        2. SparklingEmerald

          Hi Barbara. When I became involuntarily single in my mid fifties, eventually I did go online.  By then I was in my late fifties.  I was never flooded with responses.  Of the trickle I received, some were booth calls, some were ” hey”, some didn’t interest me, some did interest me but never panned out, but ONE worked out !  We are getting married next month !  It doesn’t take a flood of interested men, it only takes one !

           

        3. SparklingEmerald

          Stupid autocorrect !  Booth calls s/b booty calls.

        4. KK

          SE,

          Lol! Booth calls used to be a thing. I remember telephone booths!  : )

        5. Barbara

          SparklingEmerald

          I did go online.  By then I was in my late fifties.  I was never flooded with responses.  Of the trickle I received, some were boot[ie] calls, some were ” hey”, some didn’t interest me, some did interest me but never panned out, but ONE worked out !  We are getting married next month ! 

          Congratulations and thanks for sharing your wonderful and encouraging story!

           It doesn’t take a flood of interested men, it only takes one !

          That’s one of my dating mottoes but it’s great to hear actual proof from someone whose as young as us.

    3. 19.3
      Shaukat

       An an aside, women (more often than not) get attached after sex
      There is no evidence to support this claim. It’s true that women are more discriminate regarding who they have sex with due to hormonal differences and different sexual reproductive strategies ingrained through evolution, but there is nothing that indicates that the act of sex causes women to become attached to men when other factors are held constant. In fact, most attractive women with multiple options probably need a month or so to get attached to any one guy. I’m sure some women have internalized the belief that “good girls” don’t have sex unless they’re in love, but in the twenty first century they’re in the minority.

      1. 19.3.1
        KK

        Shaukat,

        Most women do get attached after sex. Most women also need at least a month or more to get attached to any one guy. Most women that wait to have sex do so to protect themselves, not for fear of being judged.

  20. 20
    Marika

    Shaukat

    Thanks for your compliments, & you make some good points, but you’re not serving your own argument by making such generalisations & exaggerations (most women are not getting 50 messages & not all men will pay on dates). In fact, your post adds fuel to the “us v’s them” fire.

    Women definitely get more messages than men. That’s a fact that I don’t think anyone is disputing. Just like women are far more likely to get approached in a bar than men. Women have their own challenges, though, which I’m not going to go into again as they’ve been discussed ad nauseam already.

    The answer to your question (which can apply to both sexes), is that: a. woman don’t know what it’s like to be men and vice versa and so don’t understand their experiences/challenges and b. people love to play the victim so they don’t have to take responsibility for their own lives.

    I once heard somewhere (wish I could remember where so I could give them credit), “the world doesn’t owe you anything”. I thought that was brilliant. It’s so true. We need to make our own opportunities & stop whinging about things we can’t change.

    Unless you’re around 8 years old, the ‘poor me’ thing is getting old (that applies to everyone on here complaining about their lives/dating/women/men).

  21. 21
    Shaukat

    Women have their own challenges

    @Marika,

    Agreed. I think I alluded to that in my post.

    We need to make our own opportunities & stop whinging about things we can’t change

    Agree 100%.

  22. 22
    S

    The OKCupid statistics he refers to in the article actual said that more women with cleavage got more responses, but those responses led to less conversations and that women with pictures doing an activity like a hobby or a hike had more responses that led to a conversation.

    Also women that were flirty with the camera like giving a peace sign got a lot of responses and selfies with the phone held up above looking up at it got a lot of responses – even thought the OKCupid people thought they’d be considered lame.

    Also they debunked the shirtless guy myth. Shirtless guys got more responses.

  23. 23
    Barbara

    About two weeks ago, I started reading articles on narcissism and wound up buying the book “Rethinking Narcissism: The Bad–And Surprisingly Good–About Feeling Special” by Craig Malkin, MD. I encourage the o.p. and everyone to get a copy.

    My new and limited study of narcissism has made it so much easier than it has ever been for me to spot a man who wouldn’t be good for me due to his unhealthy level of narcissism.

    Equally or more important, I’ve recognized my own tendency to be too narcissistic and how this has caused my relationship problems.

    For me, learning about the narcissism spectrum has been just what I’ve nedeed to take everything I’ve been learning from Evan to the next level. The alpha male that Evan describes and that I’ve always been attracted to displays a high degree of narcissism that’s easy to spot once you know what to look for. This knowledge makes it easier for me to rewire my attraction circuitry so that, as Evan suggests, I can find a man attractive not solely based on how he looks but primarily on how he treats me.

    Just this week I had a date with a man who is a 7 in looks and a 10 in compatibility and the date almost didn’t happen. Why? I called it off because of one thing he said on the phone! Fortunately, I had second thoughts, called him back, and he agreed to still have the date.

    He is sane, nice, unpretentious, confident, intelligent, and altruistic. And, although, he’s not super hot, I can imagine myself kissing him and liking it.

    I have no idea what will happen between us but I am very encouraged by the fact that I’ve developed the wisdom to choose a man like him because that means I’m capable of doing it again and however many times it takes until I find my life partner.

     

    1. 23.1
      Barbara

      P.S. The reason I decided to go out with the guy after at first calling off our date is because it dawned on me that he was the kind of man I would normally pass over. I realized I was repeating my life-long pattern with men which had consistently been a failed strategy. So, as Evan says, I decided to date against my type. Doing this will be my strategy going forward.

  24. 24
    FG

    For 19 and onwards…
    If your reminiscence of your sexual encounters is that they are all mostly bland, or unsatisfying, or uninteresting, and this over the course of many different men, two things come to mind: 1) you yourself are the common denominator of all those encounters, and/or b) if you constantly select mediocre sparring partners, best alter your selection criteria.

    Most women think they’re fantastic in bed. The fact is, due to male mechanics, few of them are really bad, but most of them are not great or even notable. How a guy feels about the whole woman can alter that view. If a woman is spectacular in the sack, the notion of “practice makes perfect” arises. In such a case, she may be a great benefits material, and not so great gf material.

    Not judging, but when a woman can start expressing batting averages and percentages, she is likely well beyond the range of normal attachment modes for her gender. And there is plenty of material about that if you care to look for it! If vaginal reconstruction is starting to sound like a great idea, and not from deliveries, such as Anne Heche gets in Spread, maybe a gal has been around a little too much.

    On a more subtle note, if you are so taken w yourself that nothing compares to U, you likely act the part of me me me narcissistic egotistical lover, and that can be felt and quickly understood by your partner. When that happens, the man will not care to perform that well, since you’re into yourself, and not into him. No pun intended.

    1. 24.1
      Barbara

      FG

      Most women think they’re fantastic in bed.

      There is no way you know how “most women” think about their sexual performance.

      The fact is, due to male mechanics, few of them are really bad, but most of them [women] are not great or even notable.

      If most of your experiences with women is that they haven’t been “that great or even notable,” then isn’t your statement applicable to you: “You yourself are the common denominator of all those encounters…if you constantly select mediocre sparring partners, best alter your selection criteria.”?

      Not judging, but when a woman can start expressing batting averages and percentages, she is likely well beyond the range of normal attachment modes for her gender.

      How do you know what’s “normal attachment modes” for women? This is an open forum in which both men and women are expressing their experiences and opinions anonymously, if they choose, including you. The idea that a woman shouldn’t be able to have an idea about and opinion of her own “percentages” and her sexual experiences and history is not only judgmental, it’s sexist and hypocritical. That is, it’s judgemental assuming you don’t hold men to the same standard of what is correct to discuss. If you think both men and women should be clueless about these matters then you’re simply being judgmental and perhaps you’re naive and have had few sexual encounters, which is understandable if you are a very young man.

      If vaginal reconstruction is starting to sound like a great idea, and not from deliveries, such as Anne Heche gets in Spread, maybe a gal has been around a little too much.

      This is just blatantly sexist, no matter how old you are. Who are you to say what is acceptable for a woman to do sexually with a consenting adult or to her own body when it comes to a procedure that is accepted by the professional medical community?

      If a woman is spectacular in the sack, the notion of “practice makes perfect” arises. In such a case, she may be a great benefits material, and not so great gf material.

      AND

      if you constantly select mediocre sparring partners, best alter your selection criteria.

      The fact that you think women should “select” “sparring partners” that are above “mediocre” AND that you think women who are “spectacular in bed” are not girl friend material belies a serious Madonna-Whore complex.

      In your world, a woman is supposed to gain awareness of how to “select” a good “sparring partner”–that is, to discover what her sexual preferences are– without actually gaining experience through the real life “practice” of having sex. Not only that, by a woman can “practice” with the same man and improve her sexual know-how that way. You don’t account for that at all in your baseless analysis of what women should and shouldn’t do in bed.

      If you have a girlfriend, I wonder how she feels about knowing you think she is either a so-so lover or a great lover that you are using just for sex because, due to the fact that her sexual skill clearly proves she’s had sex way too many times, you are only using her  until a more virtuous women–a virgin who was just born knowing how to be a great at sex–comes along.

      1. 24.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Barbara,

        Thank you for responding to his yucky post, although something tells me he’s just trolling.

        1. Barbara

          Emily, the Original.

          Silly me. You’re probably right.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Barbara & Emily,

          Not to mention that this. . .

          If vaginal reconstruction is starting to sound like a great idea, and not from deliveries, such as Anne Heche gets in Spread, maybe a gal has been around a little too much.

          . . . is just medically inaccurate.  That’s like saying that the more partners a man has, the more likely he is to develop erectile dysfunction, because he’s overusing his penis.

           

           

        3. Emily, the original

          GoWiththeFlow,

          That’s like saying that the more partners a man has, the more likely he is to develop erectile dysfunction, because he’s overusing his penis.

          Or that it’ll be worn down into a stub with overuse!

        4. ScottH

          Actually, I thought “use it or lose it” applies quite well.  We have to keep that thing in operational readiness at all times.  But yeah, overuse/abuse is definitely not a good thing.  ouch!

      2. 24.1.2
        Barbara

        FG

        My corrections to my original reply to you is in bold:

        The idea that a woman shouldn’t be able to have an idea about and opinion of her own “percentages” and her sexual experiences and history is not only judgmental, it’s sexist and hypocritical. That is, it’s sexist and hypocritical assuming you don’t hold men to the same standard of what is correct to discuss. If you think both men and women should be clueless about these matters then you’re simply being judgmental and perhaps you’re naive and have had few sexual encounters, which is understandable if you are a very young man.

        AND

        Not only that, but a woman can “practice” with the same man and improve her sexual know-how that way.

      3. 24.1.3
        FG

        I love selective reading and pouncing. Sensitive, are we? 🙂 Conjuring conjecture? The key point is that a lover should be someone you are at least somehow connected to, or have a connection with, not just a random, quasi indiscriminate person. At least once your experimentation phase is over. What YOU do is your own business.

        I mentioned a SINGLE case of “really bad”. As to amazing, which goes to “technique”, I can count TWO, and that is less than 2%, if notch count excites you. By their own admission, both were (their word, not mine) “sluts”. Practice makes perfect!

        Nuances, nuances. “…she MAY be…not so great gf material” alludes to possible attachment and/or commitment problems, potential infidelity issues (as some stats indicate), but boils down in the end to the quality of the relationship. Missed “How a guy feels about the whole woman can alter that view”  did you?

        Yes, vaginal reconstruction is a procedure, Did mention deliveries (for pregnancies). Did not mention being married to Godzila for a few years (that would be a good reason). But if the reason is overuse wear & tear, well! 🙂  Wouldn’t buy retread tires for my car! Others are free to do so if they so please. WHERE did I write that promiscuous men are in a safe haven from potential detachment by being male? Pray tell!

        No, we have no idea or clue what constitutes normal attachment for YOU, but for women in general, we do have some indication. And generalization is, as always, a trap. You may be an outlier and capable of committed, deep attachment in spite of your (choose a number from 0.5 to 9 or more) dozen lovers!

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4394850/

        A blog, but nonetheless a good reference on the various theories
        Thoughts on Pair Bonding

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4060846/The-ideal-number-sexual-partners-men-women-revealed.html

        https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-many-partners-has-your-girlfriend-had-find-out-here

        You are fully entitled to do as you please, and the effect on you may not be the same as it might be on the average gal. IQ, personality type, environment and other factors come into play (which seems to be forgotten even by MDs, it seems, who debate against a possible outcome under certain stresses when the outcome is not a certainty DUE to other factors).
        And yes, AGE allows for cumulative experience. Until it no longer does! Not there yet! 🙂

        1. FG

          Afterthought

          Forgot to throw in the excellent PhD work linking Emotional Promiscuity and Sexual Promiscuity. As well as a few other entertaining explorations. Link allows to DL the PDF

          How I or YOU feel about it is not entirely relevant, see? It has much to do with SUBjective as opposed to OBjective discussion.

          https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwia4qmZm9TRAhUo1oMKHTikAlEQFghXMAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.library.ubc.ca%2Fmedia%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F24%2F1.0072282%2F1%2F1017&usg=AFQjCNHDY9RtJ3mNqtel-Zr3rzW1yoYkMQ&sig2=TnmeLeBYEa4k7garrl-law

           

        2. Barbara

          FG

          I just can’t help it.

          I mentioned a SINGLE case of “really bad”.

          You chose to ignore the statement of yours that I was referring to:

          Most women think they’re fantastic in bed. The fact is, due to male mechanics, few of them are really bad, but most of them are not great or even notable.

          Given what you yourself stated, if you keep having sex with women who “are not great or even notable” in bed, I stand by my original reply, which is simply to, once again, quote you:

          “You yourself are the common denominator of all those encounters…if you constantly select mediocre sparring partners, best alter your selection criteria.”?

          Of course, at this point, you could say that you didn’t mean that you’ve been having lackluster sex; on the contrary, your sexual experiences have mostly been stellar; but most other men have had to settle for ho-hum sex and you know this is true because you read a study about those poor guys…

        3. Barbara

          FG

          Most women think they’re fantastic in bed. The fact is, due to male mechanics, few of them are really bad, but most of them are not great or even notable.
          This gem of wisdom of yours is the gift that keeps on giving:

          “You yourself are the common denominator of all those encounters…”

          Given what you stated here, as the “common denominator” in your sexual encounters with women, isn’t it just a teeny bit possible that the reasons you’ve experienced sex as “not great or even notable”  are that your sexual skills need improvement or you’re just not that into having sex with women?

    2. 24.2
      KK

      FG,

      “If a woman is spectacular in the sack, the notion of “practice makes perfect” arises. In such a case, she may be a great benefits material, and not so great gf material.”

      Lol! You’re in your fifties, dude. If you end up with a terrible lover, it has little to do with the amount of ‘practice’ she’s had. Let’s apply a little logic. If happily married couples are having sex at least twice a week, that means that anyone married over 10 years has had sex over 1,000 times. But by all means, if you end up with a mediocre lover and (in your head) you think she’s less practiced, go for it! Lol!!!

    3. 24.3
      diana

      While I do not agree with much of what Stacy2 says on this board, she is right.  Most (many) men are lousy in bed and it does not surprise me that someone would come along and blame the woman for having this sentiment.

      Since many men cannot stand the idea that women have sexual appetites or expectations they cannot fill, they are compelled to accuse the woman of having been around the block too much, having psychological deficiencies,  or the inability or unwillingness to make a bland sexual experience exciting.

      I believe Stacy2 and some other women need a certain type of sexual play for it to be truly satisfying.  While many women (and men) do not need that, there are some who will not be fulfilled otherwise.

      1. 24.3.1
        Marika

        Diana & Stacy2

        I probably should let this go, but I can’t…

        There are about 3.5 billion men on the planet, and let’s say (to give it a nice round number) maybe around 2 billion who are of the legal age of consent and straight. So unless you’ve both been having sex with different men every night, from all different countries, for most of your adult life, there is no way you can know that most or many men suck in bed. Even if you’ve had hundreds of lovers, that’s still not most men. We all only speak from our own experience.

        Ladies, generalisations like this are completely unhelpful & make other people, particularly I would imagine male readers, discount our reasonable and useful points of view.

        What on earth can be achieved from generalising about how x (bad/terrible/wrong) all y (insert men or women) are in the area of z (sex/online dating/etc)? Honestly, I don’t get it.

  25. 25
    Marie

    Barbara, I enjoy reading your posts and enjoy reading the different viewpoints between you and Stacy2, as you are both smart, strong, successful women.  I admit I do not understand this suburban wife/mom circus that you and Stacy2 are talking about and Stacy2 so abhors. Since I am lucky to be successful and have the means, I just try to create whatever environment I feel I need to thrive and be happy outside of my work.  I am a mom-to-be who is happily married to a great husband with a flexible work schedule due to his consulting business (and cooks!), and I have a fulfilling high powered career.    I guess I do live in the suburbs but we are just outside of NYC so it’s not like I’m far away from city life. Before getting married and then deciding to have kids, I thought long and hard about all the implications.  I certainly don’t want to be one of those unhappy moms that Stacy2 says are her friends, but I think if you pick the right husband/partner, have the means to support the family and some hired help, have your extended family around, then there’s no reason why you couldn’t have both a successful professional life and a family as well.  I know many female VPs and up who are very happy moms and grandmothers and they cite their family as one of their biggest successes and one of the reasons actually that they were able to be successful and give meaning to their careers as well.  I can’t help but wonder if these unhappy moms of Stacy2 really thought through whether they really should have taken on these roles, whether they have adequate support, how their life would change and whether they could handle it.  Some people really would be unhappy in which case they really shouldn’t do it.  In that respect, at least Stacy2 is self-aware enough to not do it herself and drag a kid through the same misery.  As to this suburban jungle I really think there’s really no need to be part of it if you don’t like it.  Just create a different environment for yourself and your family.  No reason why you can’t have your cake and eat it too.  Isn’t that what an empowered modern day woman is supposed to do?

    1. 25.1
      Barbara

      Marie

      It’s good to hear a different voice on these topics. You’re very fortunate that you have financial means and a strong support network. Sounds like you have the best of both worlds–a great family dynamic and a great career.

      No reason why you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Isn’t that what an empowered modern day woman is supposed to do?

      Essentially, I agree with you. It’s great that we live in a time when women and mothers have many more options than in the past.  I’d only add that your situation is not the reality for many young mothers, whether they are married or not. Still, it’s healthy for a young mother to have “Me” time and there are low-cost social support systems in place to help her do that.

      I think for the majority of career-minded women, those who are not upper middle class and above, while you can have it all as in a thriving young family and a career you love, you may not be able to have it all at the same time. Women like this may have to forestall career advancement in order to be the best parents they can be.

      This might mean not working outside of the home at all, or working part-time and thus ensuring that you won’t be promoted, or working at a dead-in job until your children are old enough for you to pursue continuing education that would open up better employment opportunities. Starting a home-based business is another possibility. In any case, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with delaying career gratification for the sake of your family since the pay off can be priceless–well-adjusted kids. To everything there is a season.

  26. 26
    FG

    I can only smile smugly! I DID allude to the movie Spread where promiscuity is rampant. And where Ashton Kutcher plays the role of a gigolo slut loser.

    As to medical reasons for vaginoplasty and labiaplasty, yes, there are some. As to overuse, actually, usually NOT an issue, but as age kicks in, elasticity drops! And thus, it may be a factor. Simple fact. Not sure there is ANY reasoanble reason, outside of a religiously conservvative wedding, for hymen reconstruction. Save perhaps a desire to karaoke Madonna’s “Like A Virgin”, something the singer would barely remember if at all! Except for the lyrics 🙂

    All that said, no trolling is involved. But what always comes back up to the surface is a state of denial. There may be a forward, vocal and apparent narrative with many of the gals herein, and they may actually have a judgmental and finger-pointing attitude in private. The usual comments rain about “how dare you decry a woman’s behavior” when it’s OK for a guy! Is it?

    The entire point boils down to being free. Undeniable. What you do with your freedom has consequences. And those are not always readily visible. How you (or I) feel about it is of no consequence or pertinence. How it clashes with the narrative of your (or my) beliefs is also irrelevant. How one or the other person proves impervious to general (” most of the group population”)  statements is also moot.
    As a survey of college students delved into the aftershocks, if any, of NSA sex, or how both genders felt after the fact, only 20% of women (in THAT survey) had no regrets, no doubts, no emotional consequences. Of course, with continued repetition, such effects may dim over time. And we will not here explore the impact on attachment capacity, but there is one, and it is significant. What we’re missing, and that is still a daunting task over time, although some echoes are coming back on this and they’re not pretty, is the aftereffect 5, 10, 20 years down the road.

    It is quite possible that some of you ladies feel you can (and did) run amok with the boys (and/or others) and such had no lasting impact on your behavior. It might also be true in some cases. Or it may be imperceptible to you. Some (men or women) have always treated their lovers as disposable, and that fact does not change over time. You see / feel / perceive it as normal. It is “your” normal. Some adults NEVER have a capacity for deep attachment.

    There are parallels in other areas of life. A Frenchman once mentioned that he felt that friendship within the English-speaking world was quite different than what it had been in France. Before an Americanization, or perhaps it is due to modernity, friendship was lifelong and stalwart (he felt or said). Nowadays, it seems disposable, light, and ditched when inconvenient. So beyond the gender debate, there may be a larger question: divisiveness and egotistical navel-gazing may have taken a toll on ALL of our relationships, gender-based or not.

      1. 26.1.1
        FG

        And feminists know they’re dead wrong, but have no way out? 🙂  And as women realize the extreme aspects and walk away, the ones remaining feel a wee bit disturbed? Also well documented.

        Given the treatment of an issue that is largely external to my self (not a typo), and given extensive research in the matter, think what you will! My ego is fine, thank you! Did you actually HAVE any arguments or sources disproving anything I wrote? Much more pertinent thn calling me a narcissist, which we all are, to some degree, unless afflicted by serious self-worth issues, and without going to extremes, which then becomes BPD. NPD or a mix thereof.

        As to the reference you provide, my relationships are doing fine. My colleagues do enjoy potables and meals in my company. Women are usually not distraught by my presence. “Usually” beccause if anyone, male or female, heaps on a bunch of bull, they will get called out on it!

        1. FG

          Excellent article. Might have used a little more in terms of references. It also could have delved more deeply on psychological aspects, but, fair enough!

          However, given its tenor, seemingly going in more or less the same direction as my thoughts, I fail to see how it contradicts my previous comments. I’m not a proponent of NSA or ONS sex, neither for women nor for men. Outside of an initial and more or less inevitable youthful “period of experimentation”.

        2. FG

          Afterthought: numbers, in my case, are not THAT revealing. Given mostly relationships (in years, 14 y steady, 7 y on/off, w intervening others, 3, 1,1,1,1, .25s and a slew of 0.08s), my ONS occurred early in life, and not necessarily because I was on the prowl. Once you find out a gal is using (powdering her nose), ditch! Insane? Next! Temperemental? Gone! Etc…

          Other criteria intervene over the years. Sometimes, it becomes a matter of “quite pleasant, but clearly not heading in the same direction”. At which point, both parties might still decide to tender benefits for a while. Temporary unattached attachment!

  27. 27
    Barbara

    I don’t know if it was regarding this article or another (I thought it was this one but I can’t find it) but a commenter mentioned that she’d met white men who said they won’t date black women because we’re argumentative. That conclusion suggests that there is something wrong with black women that makes white men not want to date us. Sorry, I’m not buying it. Blacks don’t cause society’s race problem. Whites do. And when I refer to whites throughout this comment, I don’t mean all white people. But I do men most.

    Given that reality, I say the reason most white men don’t date black women is because, from the time we were brought to the Americas against our will, white men have had no problem having sex with us–for centuries, usually against our will–but haven’t wanted to accept that black people are fully human beings.

    This is because whites need to maintain the illusion of being superior to people of color in order to feel worthy. This refusal to accept people of color as equals is deeply related to the stigma that whites’ latent inferiority complex causes them to attach with dating black. The roots of whites’ latent inferiority complex comes from their unconscious realization–and subsequent shame and fear of retribution this realization causes–that their people have wreaked havoc on human civilization and the planet for centuries.

    Regarding the white stigmatization of dating black, here’s a message I received today on Match that illustrates it. I messaged him first, not because I wanted to date him, but because I get tired of this sh&t and sometimes I just feel like calling white men out on their hypocrisy:

    ME: You liked my photos but in your profile you exclude black women from your list of preferences. So did you not notice that I’m black? Or is it that you like looking at photos of black women but wouldn’t want to date one of us?

    HIM: Hello, yes I do like your photos. You are very beautiful and based on your profile I think you are positively different. Admittedly, I have never dated a black woman before, but I did not include your ethnicity, because of possible conflicts with friends and family with a long term relationship, but that is what I am interested in. Anyway, I am willing to exchange a couple emails and see if there is a desire to meet. After all, we are only talking about one part of the package, and your overall package is very appealing. Have you dated white guys before?
    ME: I’ve dated white men but I’d never date a man who allows his family and friends to prevent him from living his life as he wants to live it. I need a man who is at least as courageous and confident as I am. Good luck finding the type of woman you deserve.

     

    1. 27.1
      Barbara

      P.S. Only an extremely arrogant person would think a woman would want to date him after he basically told her he’d be ashamed to do so. “Arrogant”–from my point of view as a black person–it’s almost a synonym for “the average white male.”

    2. 27.2
      Karl R

      Barbara,

      First, I think your response to the guy on Match.com was a good way to handle the situation.

      Second, it’s been my experience that when one person rejects another (no matter who does the rejecting, or why) that it’s driven more by who the rejector is, not who the rejectee is. That’s true whether the rejection is over race, height, or any other reason.

      Third, I think you’re over-thinking the bigotry. It’s bigotry. For most people, they’re not bigots because of some unconscious reaction to something that happened long before they were born. They grew up around bigots (whether family or friends). It became their “normal”, and then they come up with weak excuses to rationalize the bigotry later.

      1. 27.2.1
        Barbara

        Karl R

        I think you’re over-thinking the bigotry. It’s bigotry. For most people, they’re not bigots because of some unconscious reaction to something that happened long before they were born. They grew up around bigots (whether family or friends). It became their “normal”, and then they come up with weak excuses to rationalize the bigotry later.
        Thanks for responding to my comment.

        As (presumably) a white male, with all the privileges and entitlements your simply being born white affords you, you’re just not in a position to even remotely have a grip on what I’m “overthinking” as a person of color when it comes to systemic racism. The fact that you even think you could understand my perspective as a black person to the point that you would use the word “overthinking” in relation to my comment is indicative of the effects of your privileged status.

        If you’re seriously interested in learning more about why I posted as I did, check out Peggy McIntosh’s seminal essay on white privilege. She’s white and came to awaken to the reality that being white in our world comes with unlimited perks that only white people get to receive every millisecond of their lives.
        http://www.intergroupresources.com/rc/knapsack.pdf

        1. Barbara

          Karl R

          See my reply below, posted in the wrong sequence.

    3. 27.3
      S.

      I need a man who is at least as courageous and confident as I am.

      Good for you, Barbara! I cheered out loud when I read this.  🙂 I would have just blocked and deleted.  I do believe that maybe he thought you’d be as curious as he was.  Like it’s some grand experiment when you’re looking for something real.

      My very first online date (wow, nearly five years ago) was with a white man who preferred Black women.  I was a bit leery of that and asked him why.  He said, and I’ll never forget this, that Black women were more straightforward and honest with him and he always knew where he stood.  I didn’t expect him to say that and it was rather refreshing.  Even Black men have never put it quite that way.  Perspective is so interesting.  Two different people can take similar actions and interpret them in so very different ways.  He and I weren’t a match, but I’m glad he was my first online date.

      It is still categorizing.  Women are different as men are different and it’s difficult to generalize.  I think the online dating man is different sometimes, than men you meet in real life.  But maybe women dating online are different too.  There is something rather pointed and not subtle about interest. So many men write (or tell me) about not wanting to waste their time.  I miss the subtle days and the days of courting.  Oh well.

    4. 27.4
      Kyra

      HIM: …Admittedly, I have never dated a black woman before, but I did not include your ethnicity, because of possible conflicts with friends and family…

      Barbara, you are a breath of fresh air and I co-sign everything you have written here. I experience this sort of thing in online dating on a near daily basis. I, a near 42-year old Black woman, has watched for nearly 12 years as my White, Asian and other friends dated and married while I remained consistently single and active in an online dating sphere of, majorly, White males who view me as an option for casual sex or racial/sexual experimentation, but not long-term commitment.

      I once had a White male ask me, point blank, “So, if we were to date, how would it go?” As in, the color of my skin being different than his would prevent us from doing things two people normally do in a relationship. He quite truly didn’t understand how one could have a “normal” relationship with a woman who is Black. I truly don’t know what he expected…. like, I’d do an African tribal dance and sacrifice a goat or something on our second date. It was a perplexing question. I also don’t understand White men who believe that family and friends would clash so drastically that a relationship wouldn’t be possible. Many Black families have White family members. Many Black people have White friends and acquaintances and co-workers. And, perhaps it’s the lack of such diversity within their own family and friendships that is the crux of the matter. Black women are not that different. We’re not from some far off planet. We’re people who connect to other people; we’ve gone to schools and universities just like you, we’ve had life experiences just like you. The inherent divisiveness these White men imagine will automatically exist in a relationship with a Black woman is something that has been conjured by the news, media and television or their own stereotypical ignorance of who Black women are or how Black women act.
      I have links (not lists, because Zzzzzzzzzzzzz) in my profile to my favorite television series, favorite movies, favorite music, and books I’m currently reading which clearly show I have varied interests with which any person of any race can easily relate to. Yet and still, the first words out of most White men’s mouths (or, rather, fingers) online are about either my race or my body. I’m immediately racially objectified by White men. I’ve, sadly, gotten used to it. Some questions are innocent: “Have you dated a White man before?” I understand they want to know if I would date them which, if they paid close enough attention to my profile, they’d know the answer to already. But, yet and still, in 2017, I think that question needs to be retired. If a woman isn’t interested in you, you’ll know. Your race may have something to do with it, but asking racial questions right off the bat is a practice a lot of men (of all races) need to cease.

       

      Questions like, “Have you ever been with a White man before?” or “Hello there. I love chocolate” are the most common ones I receive. And, let’s not even go into the problematic, casual racism in messages like: “Hi. Are you only African American or are you mixed or biracial? You’re very beautiful.” that I receive regularly. Because, you know, being just Black isn’t enough to actually make me beautiful.

       

      I’m also VERY busty and curvy and used to share the same doubts and worries the OP has. I’ve removed body photos from my profile. I’ve attempted to dress down on dates (tying a jacket around my waist to hide my rather large backside or covering my 40DDD breasts with scarves and bulky sweaters). None of it makes a difference, however.

       

      At some point I just started to lean into it all. If a man asks “Do you date white men?” or “Have you been with a white man?” I now respond with, “I date men.” or “I’ve been with men.” That generally gets the point across very quickly that I do not make my dating decisions based on race. If they make a reference to chocolate or hot chocolate and their love for it, I just tell them to go to the supermarket and buy some then. That tends communicate to them quite well that I will have none of their racial fetishization and don’t take kindly to being described as a food product.  If a man begins our initial conversations about my body or my race I respond with, “I have a strict ‘No talk about my race or body until the third date’ rule.” I’ve gotten a few chuckles and positive responses from that line. It shows that I’m flirty, not so closed/defensive that I won’t engage in a discussion about things they may be curious about or aroused by, and that they have to get to know me a little and put in some work before being considered a man I share such things with. You can’t just come in my inbox looking to discuss my Blackness or body for your personal jollies.

       

      When I used match.com (of which, I do not any longer) I also regularly, like Barbara, got likes, winks and messages from White men who left Black women off of the list of women they’d consider adequate matches. I would curtly send them a message informing that I do not match their racial preference and wish them luck in their search. Many responded that I seemed “different” (we know what they mean by this) or that they would “make an exception for me.” I responded simply with silence. As one should.

  28. 28
    Lisa

    I don’t think you really addressed the full question.  She also asked what to do to get men to not just want to sleep with her.  So okay she posts pics as you described but once men get with her in person they get all sex stupid?  No matter what she wears short of a burlap sack?  It seems like if a woman is very attractive men can’t see past that.  In doing so though they never get to know her to assess compatibility because they are so focused on getting her into bed.  When I used to do online dating I had similar issues as this writer.  I would get lots of dates and many of the men would follow all your rules and I would hold out and some would work hard courting me, jewelry fancy dates, flowers and within a month of giving it up all the sudden they realized that we were not compatible.  Over and over again I would hear I just have realized I could never marry you we are not compatible and would list all the reasons why, but ended with if you want to keep having sex I’m cool with that.  But the things the men would point out were things they already new not that just came out after sex!  Finally after this happening one two many times I started asking the guys and every single one said the same thing.  I was so sexually attracted to you I never actually thought about if we were compatible.  I was working to get you into bed.  Once I did after a few times I realized I’d love to keep up the sex but did not really have much in common with you.  So I’m not sure what a woman is to do? The writer here I can guarantee is having a similar issue.

  29. 29
    Michelle

    So your recommendation for this woman who is only attracting men that want sex… is to be more sexy?  Your right, we should all just be sex toys for men and stop attending college at all because it’s actually a huge impediment to finding love when you are sexy AND smart.

  30. 30
    keke

    Dear Nay we’re in a dating apocalypse. I’m in my 40’s and 20 years ago did not see the kind of behavior that goes on now. This social media world has made everyone objects and if you don’t put out the next one will. I don’t know if you’re a Godly women but get involved in some church activities or singles ministries where there’s at least some knowledge of the Courting process. I truly feel for you in these times looking for something genuine.

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