How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?

How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?
Hi Evan,

I have been reading your blog for over a year now and I have also bought your book Why He Disappeared. I enjoy a lot of the advice and generally agree with most of it.

You generally maintain the reason why people are single is they over-assess themselves and rate themselves higher than what they originally are. Like a 6 thinking she is an 8. So my question today is basically this: how do you correctly analyze yourself? I always feel like asking people I am around (good friends, coworkers etc.) but I am scared it might ruin things/make things uncomfortable and basically they might tell me what I want to hear.

So is there an objective way to quantify yourself so that you are clear in where you stand? –Sharon

Thanks for the self-aware question about not being entirely self-aware.

I’ve always used a metaphor to describe people and their attractiveness ratings.

Think of it like a clothing store.

You’re introducing a new brand of milk. It’s no different than anyone else’s 2% milk, but it’s your unique packaging. You’re targeting wealthy people who want the best of the best in everything. To that end, you price your milk at $10/gallon.

Nobody buys it.

Does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

There’s nothing wrong with the milk. It’s just not finding its target market.

You lower the price to $9. $8. $7. $6. $5…

Your mind is blown because you thought that your milk was different and special and it turns out that no matter how strongly you felt about your unique brand, other people – your buyers – only valued it at a lesser rate.

It’s basic supply and demand and it’s about the only way to see what your value is.

Sure, you can put your face up on HotOrNot or buy one of those Ugly iPhone apps to gauge your “scientific” attractiveness rating. But that’s not particularly telling.

More telling is this: does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

If not, you’re overestimating yourself, no matter what “number” you think you are.

Listen, we overestimate ourselves because it’s necessary. No one would want to wake up in the morning, thinking that she’s ugly, stupid, mean, and has bad taste in clothing, music, and décor. But if you look around, there are a lot of stupid, ugly, mean people with bad taste, aren’t there?

So a measure of self-delusion is not only normal, but somewhat healthy for survival.

People respond to confident people and whether the confidence is deserved or not doesn’t really matter, as long as each delusional pot finds a delusional lid.

The only time that this overconfidence bias becomes a problem is when there’s a severe disconnect between reality and fantasy.

The 62-year-old guy who writes to you online when you’re 31? If he starts to take things personally, he’s gonna go through some hard times. He may be a great catch, but if he’s holding out for exclusively women who DON’T want him, he’ll likely be alone for a really, really, really long time.

I don’t judge him. He wants what he wants. But I do feel bad for him.

Everyone becomes choosier online because we’re comparing you to other, younger, taller, richer, smarter people in a way that we don’t in real life.

He’s overestimated himself and forgotten that the 31-year-old could have any man – 30, 35, 40, 45, 50… there’s virtually NO reason she would choose to go out with him.

Flip that over and apply this logic to yourself, Sharon.

If every guy you write to online is a 9 and none of those guys write back, they probably don’t see you as a “9” as well.

Keep going down the list – writing to the 8s, 7s, 6s, and 5s. The ones who start writing back are the ones at your level.

For most people, this reality check is quite a slap in the face.

And that’s exactly why I do it with all my private clients.

I have no tolerance for people who don’t embrace reality and if a fit 50-year-old woman is only going to write to hot 45-year-old guys who claim to want 35-year-old women, she’s most definitely wasting her time.

To put a final point on it, online dating isn’t the best arbiter for your attractiveness number. Everyone becomes choosier online because we’re comparing you to other, younger, taller, richer, smarter people in a way that we don’t in real life.

In real life, your physical attractiveness number is completely affected by your personality.

Overweight women, women with large noses, women who are older – name your physical bugaboo – all become sexier when attached to a bright, vibrant, positive, engaging personality. Which is why the photo test is, at best, limited.

Still, if you’re only holding out for men who have no interest in you, you’re probably overestimating yourself and should take it down a peg. Same exact advice applies to all men, so please, no angry comments, okay? ☺

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Stacey

    Karl, do you even understand the difference between a documented case and an epidemic, as in 1 in 10 women having it in one form or another, girls as young as 9 dieting ad developing anorexia? What is your point exactly, that women develop eating disorders because it’s their “choice”? I got news for you, yes, women chose to compete with each other on looks, but they compete for men’s attention, and men are only giving this attention to those who conform to the skinny model type of beauty, which they get from the media. And when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.

    Eliza #55
    If that’s what you think is standing between you and male attention, I suggest you dye your hair, get blue contacts and start running 5 miles 3 times a week. You will be slim, blond and blue eyed in about 3 months with very low cost

    If you feel that’s wh

  2. 62
    Helen

    Zaq 61: “Why would beauty be objective? One word – Darwin”

    The word might be more appropriately “evolution” or “natural selection,” but I agree with your general idea.

    Our one universe within the multiverse has much beauty, both in mathematics and in nature.

  3. 63
    Jadafisk

    A few folks here have mentioned the impact that racial origin can have. Hordes of men regularly contend that “full-blooded” women of my group can aspire to being a physical attractiveness 5 at best.

  4. 64
    AllenB

    Hey Zaq, cite the studies for me please.

    My recollection of some math I have taken is if you convolve a bunch of random functions together, you tend towards a gaussian distribution. A Guassian distribution is result of true statistical random noise added to a ‘true’ value. It only tells you that the average woman is 3 with a particular standard deviation. If the assessment was completely random the distribution would be flat, but from the distribution alone you can’t tell if most men agree a given woman is a four or a two or a five, only that the more women end up with an average of 3 than with an average of 2 or 5.

  5. 65
    Karl R

    Stacey,
    Do you understand what facts are?

    Facts:
    An estimated 0.5 to 3.7 percent of women suffer from anorexia nervosa in their lifetime.
    http://www.anad.org/get-information/about-eating-disorders/eating-disorders-statistics/
    According to the Mayo Clinic: “The exact cause of anorexia nervosa is unknown,” though the popular emphasis on thinness is believed to play a contributing role, along with genetic predisposition and obsessive-compulsive behaviors.
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/anorexia/ds00606/dsection=causes

    How do you know the exact cause of anorexia nervosa, and the exact percentage of women who will suffer from it, when the doctors and researchers at the Mayo Clinic don’t?

    Stacey,
    “men are only giving this attention to those who conform to the skinny model type of beauty,”

    Really? Are Christina Hendrick’s fans aware of this?

    You may choose to believe that men only give attention to women who look like skinny models, but that belief doesn’t stand up to casual observation.

    mara said: (#59)
    “just watch ‘Girls, Interrupted’ in a profile shot, no chin whatsoever”

    Umm … I see a chin.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=angelina+jolie+girl+interrupted+pictures&start=94&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=673&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=Pv3Y7cmastacXM:&imgrefurl=http://weheartit.com/slhx&docid=BiWrv-quC6lNnM&imgurl=http://data.whicdn.com/images/694796/130-2_thumb.jpg&w=240&h=200&ei=xfKpT6qaCcy1twebwb2jAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=789&vpy=145&dur=734&hovh=160&hovw=192&tx=153&ty=85&sig=116395844765299385534&page=6&tbnh=134&tbnw=163&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:94,i:50

  6. 66
    Ruby

    KarlR said (#57):

    “I’m assuming you’ve had a long-term boyfriend before. Think back to when you did. If you were spending a day at home with your boyfriend, did you bother todress up and put on makeup? (My fiancée and ex-girlfriends wouldn’t under those circumstances.)

    Now think about the last time you went to a wedding shower, baby shower, tupperware party, or other event where only women were going to attend. You probably dressed up and put on makeup to attend that event.

    Women are held to high standards by other women.”

    If a woman was spending the evening watching videos with her female friend, she wouldn’t dress up and put on makeup either. You can bet that the same woman dresses up and wears makeup when going on dates with her boyfriend because she wants to look attractive for him. This is especially true in the early stages of dating, including inviting him to her home when it’s just the two of them, as well when going to other public events where both men and women are present. It’s less true today, but traditionally, most of the top fashion designers and stylists have been men.

    I think that Eliza’s saying that men are more comfortable with their bodies even if they’re not in good shape, whereas women are much more critical of themselves.

    The incidence of anorexia in the United States has more than doubled since 1970. Anorexia was not officially classified as a psychiatric disorder by the American Psychiatric Association until 1980. It is most certainly recognized as a serious problem for teenage girls.

  7. 68
    mara

    @ Karl

    look closer Karl.
    check out this scerengrab (last pic on the bottom,
    if the other ones aren’t obvious enough);
    no, she didn’t have this angular, protruding, classic chin.
    My job is to know facial differences by the millimeter.
    And here there is quite a massive change…

    http://www.womenlargejaw.com/node/456

  8. 70
    Paragon

    The sure way to gauge your *true* level of attractiveness, is justified confidence with respect to object(ie. LTR, or
    short-term) dependence.

    If you can score dates and sex with male 9’s, but only male 6’s want to marry you(assuming this is the goal), then guess what your *true* value is(hint: it’s *not* a ‘9’, like you might have been led to believe).

    But, the issue of human attraction is hardly the chaos theory it is purported to be, at all levels of observation(every measurable phenomenon varies, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot observe predictable patterns):

    http://www.oocities.org/omegaman_uk/beauty.html

    Much confusion arises from the little acknowledged fact that there is a frequent conflict between male preference and
    *opportunity*.

    Just because it can be naively observed where a male 5 or 6 will hook up with a female 2 or 3, doesn’t necessarily imply a
    preference for such women, lol.

    But rather, that males are under evolutionary pressure(ie. due to their high-rate fitness optima, compared to females) to make concessions and trade-offs – they are compelled to breed more frequently, even to the point of considering inferior women as an option.

    Consider the whole BBW/fat-fetish culture.

    Again, these guys don’t necessarily prefer obsese women(at least initially) – but, males deprived of sexual options,
    appreciate that such low-value women are more sexually available, relative to higher value women:

    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/08/sex-looks-are-supply-substitutes.html

    So, this whole phenomenon is a predictable male adaptation to an acutely skewed mating landscape, that limits the options of the typical males.

    Admittedly, this is difficult concept for many females to grasp, because their characterisitic mating obstinacy is
    itself culled from sexually conflicting evolutionary pressures, where females weight more strongly for mate quality, than do males(who make more qualitative concessions in favor of mate quantity – as a function of mating frequency).

    So, in the rare case that a female is unable to find a willing and attractive male, she is more inclined to go without, until
    such a male makes himself available to her(or not).

    In summary, theory predicts that male mating ‘choices’ should be more variable than that of females(something which the data supports), but this can only be spuriously correlated with tacit(ie genuine) preference.

    @ Kathleen

    ” Most women underestimate their attractiveness where as men seem to overestimate it .”

    Soundly refuted by evidence, countless times in this blog already.

    @ Holly

    “It’s funny now that I think about some of the men I’ve dated in the past. I’ve intentionally sought out the short/fat/bald
    guys (those I consider 5s) because I figured we’d be a good match; he’d appreciate me even though I’m overweight and no model, and I wouldn’t have to worry about other women chasing him around. Well, now that I look back I realize that most (if not all) of these men had been married to gorgeous women or ended up cheating on me with gorgeous women, so maybe the scale doesn’t mean anything after all.”

    Wrong conclusion – it sounds more likely that this is a very atypical sample, or perhaps your attractiveness measures of
    these men/women are *way* off(esp if you seem to be observing below average males who are capable of having sexual affairs with gorgeous women, and without money being exchanged, lol).

    @ Rudy37lee

    “. If you glance around at couples, for the most part, they are about equal in attractiveness to one another.”

    Maybe long-term couples, but with short-term pairings, disassortative is the rule, except at the extreme margins of
    attractiveness.

    @ Michael17

    “I’m a guy, and I’m not physically attracted to every woman whose physical beauty rates “9” or “10” (going by society’s
    general concensus). In fact, there are many such whom I am NOT attracted to. And yet, I am attracted to some “6”s or “7”s.”

    Abd this is all confounded by cognitive dissonance – where we internalize our options(wighting for expectations of success) as a ‘preference'(but only within limits of deviation, from biases indicated in evolutionary success).

    @ Leesa

    “the decent guys generally don’t bother going there, and so the pretty women often get the creepy guys who don’t care if they get rejected and will shamelessly have a go. where does this fit into pretty women being able to judge their realistic attractiveness to men?”

    This doesn’t apply to OLD, where the data shows that attractive women *will* get emailed by virtually every guy, lol.

    There’s your answer.

    @ Helen

    “1. There is one other exception beyond age: that is if you are of a race that is not the predominant race in your society.
    Then, there is a huge amount of disagreement among men about whether you are a 4 or a 7. This is true regardless of whether your face shows bilateral symmetry or you have large eyes, full lips, etc. – all the other objective markers of beauty.”

    I would not say huge disagreement, but there is some, because of an evolutionary principle(Koinophilia), that limits
    deviations from normal in any population.

    “Take a look at the married couples around you. Very often, you’ll see women who are not that objectively attractive married to handsome, age-appropriate men who are not losers. Likewise, you’ll see objectively beautiful women married to ugly or older men. In real life, people are not “restricted” by looks, in either direction.”

    Because, in LTRs, attractiveness can be(or become) a secondary consideration(especially where money, resources, and status are involved).

    But, this is clearly not the general case, so why consider it as such?

    ” However, those with the most “average” features, which scientific articles have shown are considered most “attractive,” get more consensus in the ratings and fewer contacts. How odd.”

    Male ratings and emailing strategies are being colored by relative expectations(the cost/reward game theoretic
    explanation – where male investments are commensurate to some compound assessment of cost:gain, with some weighting for confidence of expected payout).

    Also, conclusions from these trait-average studies fail to account for that margin of deviation where we must assume
    directional selection is operating(ie. while the hypothetical immaculate beauty might be expected to objectify perfect trait ‘averages’, the majority of beautiful women should be expected to deviate in more or less predictable directions).

    @ Nicole

    Every evolutionary population also has a proportion of ‘outgroup-seekers’, who will favor these clinal(ie. racial) variants, so that balancing selection can operate opportunistically.

    The trick for women of color is to be endogamous, or to seek out favorably disposed populations of outgroup seekers(through indicated venues/mediums – such as inter-racial clubs/sites).

    I can say that the value of minority women actually *rises* in favorable populations where concessions are made for the improved prospect of out-breeding enhancement.

    The point is, any perceived disadvantage of minority women can actually be turned into an advantage(with men who will prefer them).

    @ Paul Mawdsley

    “My whole approach was based on intuitive learning, model building and theorizing using experience, introspection and
    empathy. It sent me in a completely different direction to the “objective” approach. And it worked.”

    Yeah, but I don’t know of a single reasonable individual who neglects intuition in lieu of perfect information – it is not the
    false dichotomy you seem to be posing.

    @ Mara

    “These days I see many women getting married to younger men”

    Yes, and still less than the reverse.

    There’s the quick answer on why your thought experiement is not likely to render the conclusion you would like.

    @ Stacey

    “I am not “pointing fingers” at men, as you seem to suggest, I am pointing at the media and their impact.”

    And the study he cited, soundly refuted that ‘impact’.

    “The fact that men have “realistic” opinion of women’s looks does not disprove or contradict what I said about impossible
    standards.”

    Of course it does – without corresponding conseqences, how do these ‘standards’ manifest except as a figment of your imagination?

    ” Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses”

    If you are arguing that the ‘girl next door’ is competing for the same pool of men as female models and celebrities, then
    this can only speak to the ‘unrealistic standards’ of all the mediocre women who are invested(to the exclusion of their male peers) in the same kinds of (high value)men as women of considerably higher value.

    Ergo, the basis of this problem lies squarely on these unrealistic expectations(special pleading arguments don’t make a compelling case, sorry).

    ” And when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.”

    Or they can go for guys at their *own level of attractiveness* – which, of course, data and theory demostrates they are
    loathe to do(to the corresponding dinenfranchisement of the men you are ignoring in your little pity equation).

  9. 71
    Helen

    AllenB: You’re right. It’s the Central Limit Theorem. And I also agree with the latter part of your argument. You can’t tell from a distribution of all women’s averages what one woman’s average distribution looks like, precisely because of the CLT.

  10. 72
    Helen

    Jadafisk 64: “A few folks here have mentioned the impact that racial origin can have. Hordes of men regularly contend that “full-blooded” women of my group can aspire to being a physical attractiveness 5 at best.”

    So don’t hang out with those silly hordes. Hang out with those who accept you regardless of race.

    Jadafisk, if you are either African-American or Asian, the perfect tribe to hang out with is nerds. Nerds just don’t care much about other people’s outward appearances, because: 1) they don’t care much about their own outward appearances :) and 2) they are much more interested in something else – usually something intellectual and worthwhile – than obsessing over another person’s race.

    Here I agree with Paragon 70. There is always a right group for you regardless of race. Try, if you can, to avoid the type of person who would care about such things and to gravitate toward those for whom it doesn’t matter. As a minority, I’ve found my own comfortable niche around nerds. I am not as comfortable around socialites, because for them, looks really do matter, and therefore race matters.

  11. 73
    mara

    @Paragon

    excuse me, I never said that there are more couplese where he is younger than she is.
    I also never attempted any “experiment”.
    I simply said WHY should we completely ignore that a 31 y.o. woman COULD be dating or end up marrying a younger guy.
    How is this questionable ? I know myself many perfectly happy long term couples where she is older,
    what is your point Paragon?

  12. 74
    Karl R

    Stacey said: (#53)
    “Alas, in the modern world women are being forced to compete not just with other girls next door, but with perfetly altered images of models/actresses cast from all over the world for their attractiveness,”
    Paragon said: (#70)
    “If you are arguing that the ‘girl next door’ is competing for the same pool of men as female models and celebrities, then this can only speak to the ‘unrealistic standards’ of all the mediocre women who are invested (to the exclusion of their male peers) in the same kinds of (high value) men as women of considerably higher value.”

    I wanted to bring this out because it got lost in the three pages of response.

    I’m not dating a model/actress. I’m certainly not dating the digitally altered image of a model/actress. If any men are holding out for the digitally altered image of a supermodel, all they’re doing is weeding out a few extremely stupid men from the dating pool.

    How is that a loss for women?

    Stacey’s entire rant has no relevance to the topic Sharon is discussing.

    Stacey said: (#62)
    “when the standard is pushed to the extreme, women are pushed to the extreme. and there’s always a choice: to say single.”

    My unreasonable standard can’t keep you single, because you’ll just go find someone else with a more reasonable standard.

    My unreasonable standard will keep me single though, because it will be present no matter whom I date.

    Similarly, if you have an unreasonable standard, it only prevents me from dating you, not any other woman.

    Given the number of people who get married, clearly these unreasonable standards don’t affect the majority of the population. Most people tailor their expectations to their opportunities.

    So if you’re continuously being hampered by unreasonable standards, then the opposite sex is not the source of your problems.

    Helen said: (#72)
    “Jadafisk, if you are either African-American or Asian, the perfect tribe to hang out with is nerds. Nerds just don’t care much about other people’s outward appearances, because: 1) they don’t care much about their own outward appearances”

    You’ve just pointed out why your suggestion doesn’t work for many women. Those women care very much about the nerds’ outward appearance.

    Other than that, I agree completely.

  13. 75
    casey

    @Helen
    But the problem with your advise is that most nerds are socially clueless, which certainly renders them less desirable to females who are relationship seeking . Definitely not the type most women aspire to date/marry. Though studies have shown that nerdy guys tend to make good husbands.

  14. 76
    Tom

    Mara, #37 and 73
    “Why you write that a 31y.o. woman could choose instead a 30, 40 or 50 y.o. guy?
    Is a guy that’s younger then her (say 28) out of her league?”

    I’m such a man and I wouldn’t date a woman in her thirties. Not because she’s out of my league (quite the opposite by your description), rather I’d assume (often unfairly) she’s at a different life-stage to me, re. looking for husband / kids asap.

    Obviously I don’t speak for all 28 y.o. old men but I’d say it’s an issue for many, and it’s probably what Evan meant.

  15. 77
    Stacey

    Ok Karl, so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard? Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more and is not physically disfigured unreasonable, because where I live such men only go for models Or model-like type of women, as opposed to us, mediocre population? Should I settle for a loser if I wasn’t blessed with high cheekbones and a 23″ waist? I really don’t know what planet you live on, but right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals. Zero. So yes, we do feel like we are in competition with the entire world, and no, we are not competing for some actors or celebs, just guys who work in the same office/law firm etc as us. Isn’t it exactly the problem that this blog is dedicated to? From my personal experience, took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted. My only regret? Didn’t have them sooner.

  16. 78
    Paul Mawdsley

    Paragon,

    Sorry to be unclear. I put the word “objective” in quotations because I was referring specifically to Zaq’s version of “objective”. I do not see a dichotomy between intuition and objectivity in reality but such a dichotomy exists in a lot of individuals. I was seeing it as existing in Zaq and in others I have dealt with who have no respect for intuition. I have also seen it in intuitive spiritualists who have no respect for objectivity.

    Zaq was taking a stand of “objective authority” and made the point that he was against intuition. This was the false dichotomy I was pointing to. I would suggest there is no real objectivity where the information provided by intuition needs to be excluded. Part of the meaning of objectivity is being inclusive of all available evidence. Thanks for leading me to clarify.

    Side note: I find the substance of your post and Karl R’s posts to be in stark contrast to Zaq’s. My intuition tells me this contrast is telling of different motives and to be weary of wasting my time on further engagement with Zaq.

  17. 79
    cat

    @Stacey..so sad for you that you opted for “4 elective procedures” to get a date with someone that’s your “caliber”? Why would you stoop to such a low level. I think you need to re-evaluate your “caliber”. There are real, good men out there that are quality men that aren’t looking for “model types” & the men who only date “model type” women are not what I consider “good caliber” in the first place. Raise your standards, don’t lower them! Remember, you reap what you sow. Sounds like you are trying for a superficial, shallow man & so shall you reap that. Watch what you wish for! So glad I am married & don’t have to worry about the nonsense that goes on in the dating world. Gross.

  18. 80
    Happy Person

    It’s funny how the woman in the picture weighs 50 pounds, according to the scale! Ha!!

  19. 81
    Happy Person

    Re: stats and equations and evo psych and all that stuff. It’s just analytical nonsense when applied to relationships. When I was dating no one ever dragged out a ruler to check the proportions of my features. And no one ever “rated” me with a number, as far as I can tell. And I didn’t do those things, either.

    It’s really much simpler than all of this noise.

    Here it is: Are you both OK with the way the other person looks? Are you both OK with how the other person behaves? Do you have some foundation for building whatever you want to build together? Three yes answers means you’re off an running.

    Now put your calculators away and go kiss someone!!

  20. 82
    Karl R

    Stacey asked: (#78)
    “so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard?”

    I’ll give you an easy example.

    Stacey said: (#78)
    “right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals.”
    “Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more […] unreasonable”

    If the man making more than you, he’s not your equal. He’s your superior.

    If the man who is earning 20% more than you is your equal, then the man who is earning 20% less than you should also be your equal.

    But to you, the man who earns a bit more than you is your equal. The man who earns a bit less than you is a “loser” who you’d never considered dating.

    I suspect the same extends to physical appearance (especially given that women rated 80% of men as being below average). If a man is a bit more attractive than you, you see him as being your equal. If he’s a little less attractive than you, you see him as being “disfigured”.

    I also noticed how you don’t seem to have any gray area between “peer” and “disfigured/loser”.

  21. 83
    Mia

    This whole debate is ridiculous. Nobody gets into a ltr based on looks. I See average , even flubbery, women everywhere with decent looking guys. If you are an attractive woman , generally the men you are seeing are used to dating women of your phys caliber and it doesn’t put you at any advantage, it just gets you in the door. I’m probably an 8 or 9 but am usually approached by men who are old, ugly, or players. One day I asked a very attractive girl friend if that happened to her and she agreed. There’s a huge range of decent guys with decent looks out there who aren’t prowling for women but you can get to know them in more casual settings thru friends. I don’t know anyone who is ranking members of the opposite sex by number or holding out for 10s. As long as you’re somewhat cute and sex is good, guys don’t really care about looks for ltr and marriage – it’s about the connection and readiness of the guy for commitment.

  22. 84
    Mia

    Also , I am a minority ( half white though)and do not see any disadvantage — white guys love the exotic look. In fact, many of the best looking guys are tired of the blonde generic look — theyve dated those girls already –and find light brown skin and long dark hair much more interesting and appealing.

  23. 85
    Happy Person

    Stacey: I couldn’t be with a guy who required that I have a selective procedure. Not even one. I don’t even know what a selective procedure is! But I don’t like it. Not one bit…

    Karl: Stacey never said what she meant by equal. I think you are jumping to conclusions of the negative variety. You keep telling her what she thinks and what she means, but you aren’t asking her for clarifaction. Foul! Out of bounds!

    And double ew about the suggestion that people are superior to others because they make more money. Where do you get that from? Don’t tell us OKCupid. That doesn’t sound like a reliable source of info. I mean, cupids wear diapers and shoot arrows. What’s that about.

  24. 86
    Paragon

    @ Mara

    – “excuse me, I never said that there are more couplese where he is younger than she is.
    I also never attempted any “experiment”.
    I simply said WHY should we completely ignore that a 31 y.o. woman COULD be dating or end up marrying a younger guy.
    How is this questionable ? I know myself many perfectly happy long term couples where she is older,
    what is your point Paragon?”

    Sorry, I should clarify that such an expectation is to some degree *less* likely by virtue of the fact that the reverse
    dynamic(older men with younger women), is significantly more common:

    http://www.ssb.no/english/magazine/art-2005-01-31-01-en.html

    But, I really should not imply anything about your personal preferences, so please accept my humble apologies.

    @ Stacey

    “Ok Karl, so tell me what IS my unreasonable standard? Is wanting to date a man who is making same or more and is not physically disfigured unreasonable”

    Color me skeptical, but where are you observing such a significance of disfigured males, unless there is some reason for an exceptional sampling of war veterans?

    “because where I live such men only go for models Or model-like type of women, as opposed to us, mediocre population? Should I settle for a loser if I wasn’t blessed with high cheekbones and a 23″ waist? I really don’t know what planet you live on, but right around here pretty much every girlfriend I have who is successful and overall a full package but not model hot has ZERO marriage prospects with her equals. Zero.”

    Sorry, but did you, or your girlfriends ever consider that these ‘losers’, are actually your equals?

    I do not say this to sound cruel, but the truth is that males really are *relatively* forgiving of female attractiveness –
    data supports this, and evolution *predicts* it.

    Thus, the most likely explanation I have is that you(and your friends) have a very skewed perception of reality.

    “From my personal experience, took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted.”

    But, tell me, you have already indicated that you have endomorphic tendencies.

    And intuition tells me that this caliber of guy you wanted, was nowhere near an assortative equivalent(ie. an endomorphic tending male).

    If this is true, then there lies the basis of your scarcity problem(ie. you are fixated on the same small population of ‘choice’ males, as a significantly larger population of women – rendering an insoluble scarcity).

  25. 87
    Zaq

    If only it was simple. Finding someone we are attracted to, and who also finds us attractive, and shares our hopes, aspirations and values. That is the Holy Grail.

    And speaking of ‘information’ that isn’t. Here’s an example, that keeps coming up on this blog and which I often hear proclaimed by women.
    “Don’t worry. The perfect partner will come when you least expect it. The Universe has set one aside just for you. All you have to do is wait expectantly.”
    This apparently is an immutable law. The only thing you have to do is have faith and patience.
    And the evidence for this would be ?

    Then Mara and Stacey state the ‘ugly’ truth. Improve your looks, improve your success with those you are actually attracted to.

  26. 88
    Ria

    Stacey – 10 points to you! ( I wish you could give me your email address). I remember one other entry from Evans blog, when woman did several surgeries that total costed her massive money. BUT, The surgery actually worked wonders and before and after life was like day and night – she suddenly had the top guys proposing her and life was way more fun.

    The fact is – you can listen endlessly all sorts of advices, like “how to win him over,” “your prince is just right around the corner,” and “Ok, that guy wasnt for you, then, NEXT,” when the next guy can come and be as nice as angel, yet still telling you in some point that there is “something missing”, or “he does not feel it,” or worse, you get taken advantage by some (player) 9-ies, who let you kind of belive that you are 10, when their actions shows you half less etc. You get tired of this at the end, when it keeps happening and wonder, why although your friends and family say “youre fantastic,” nothing works. So l dont see anything bad upgrading youself when it gives good results and you have also personality to back it.

  27. 89
    Kathleen

    Heres the highlight story that was on MSN last week for the guys who doubt the possibility that most women under rate their looks…

    “A recent study done by Dove Skincare has revealed some fascinating insights into how women perceive themselves and their own beauty. Here’s the good news: 78 percent of ladies surveyed want to see “real women” in beauty ads instead of celebrities and adolescent girls. Win! But here’s the bad news: the study also found that only one in eight British women polled do consider themselves attractive.

    What’s most interesting to me about the study’s results, though, is that only five percent of women felt pressure from friends or family to be more beautiful. That means that overwhelmingly, the impulses we have to make ourselves even more gorgeous or dazzling come from within. (I would say that arguably, for young women, one of the hardest battles they face on a day-to-day basis is believing and valuing their own beauty, both inside and out.) I can definitely speak to the fact that I’m my own harshest critic, and the results of this study make me realize that I need to take it easy on myself. “

  28. 90
    Karl R

    Happy Person said: (#90)
    “And double ew about the suggestion that people are superior to others because they make more money.”

    I’m perfectly happy to date women who earn more or less than me. I don’t consider people who earn more than me to be my superiors, nor do I consider people who earn less than me to be my inferiors.

    Stacey wants to date her equal, and she will only date men who earn the same or more than her.

    Draw your own conclusions as to whether Stacey views men who earn less than her as her equals. If you’re convinced she does, perhaps you can explain to me why she refuses to date them.

    Happy Person said: (#90)
    “Karl: Stacey never said what she meant by equal.”

    I would say that she already did. But if you feel that there’s another explanation, you can ask her to repeat herself.

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