How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?

How Can I Tell How Attractive I Really Am?
Hi Evan,

I have been reading your blog for over a year now and I have also bought your book Why He Disappeared. I enjoy a lot of the advice and generally agree with most of it.

You generally maintain the reason why people are single is they over-assess themselves and rate themselves higher than what they originally are. Like a 6 thinking she is an 8. So my question today is basically this: how do you correctly analyze yourself? I always feel like asking people I am around (good friends, coworkers etc.) but I am scared it might ruin things/make things uncomfortable and basically they might tell me what I want to hear.

So is there an objective way to quantify yourself so that you are clear in where you stand? –Sharon

Thanks for the self-aware question about not being entirely self-aware.

I’ve always used a metaphor to describe people and their attractiveness ratings.

Think of it like a clothing store.

You’re introducing a new brand of milk. It’s no different than anyone else’s 2% milk, but it’s your unique packaging. You’re targeting wealthy people who want the best of the best in everything. To that end, you price your milk at $10/gallon.

Nobody buys it.

Does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

There’s nothing wrong with the milk. It’s just not finding its target market.

You lower the price to $9. $8. $7. $6. $5…

Your mind is blown because you thought that your milk was different and special and it turns out that no matter how strongly you felt about your unique brand, other people – your buyers – only valued it at a lesser rate.

It’s basic supply and demand and it’s about the only way to see what your value is.

Sure, you can put your face up on HotOrNot or buy one of those Ugly iPhone apps to gauge your “scientific” attractiveness rating. But that’s not particularly telling.

More telling is this: does anyone that you want to date want to date you back?

If not, you’re overestimating yourself, no matter what “number” you think you are.

Listen, we overestimate ourselves because it’s necessary. No one would want to wake up in the morning, thinking that she’s ugly, stupid, mean, and has bad taste in clothing, music, and décor. But if you look around, there are a lot of stupid, ugly, mean people with bad taste, aren’t there?

So a measure of self-delusion is not only normal, but somewhat healthy for survival.

People respond to confident people and whether the confidence is deserved or not doesn’t really matter, as long as each delusional pot finds a delusional lid.

The only time that this overconfidence bias becomes a problem is when there’s a severe disconnect between reality and fantasy.

The 62-year-old guy who writes to you online when you’re 31? If he starts to take things personally, he’s gonna go through some hard times. He may be a great catch, but if he’s holding out for exclusively women who DON’T want him, he’ll likely be alone for a really, really, really long time.

I don’t judge him. He wants what he wants. But I do feel bad for him.

Everyone becomes choosier online because we’re comparing you to other, younger, taller, richer, smarter people in a way that we don’t in real life.

He’s overestimated himself and forgotten that the 31-year-old could have any man – 30, 35, 40, 45, 50… there’s virtually NO reason she would choose to go out with him.

Flip that over and apply this logic to yourself, Sharon.

If every guy you write to online is a 9 and none of those guys write back, they probably don’t see you as a “9” as well.

Keep going down the list – writing to the 8s, 7s, 6s, and 5s. The ones who start writing back are the ones at your level.

For most people, this reality check is quite a slap in the face.

And that’s exactly why I do it with all my private clients.

I have no tolerance for people who don’t embrace reality and if a fit 50-year-old woman is only going to write to hot 45-year-old guys who claim to want 35-year-old women, she’s most definitely wasting her time.

To put a final point on it, online dating isn’t the best arbiter for your attractiveness number. Everyone becomes choosier online because we’re comparing you to other, younger, taller, richer, smarter people in a way that we don’t in real life.

In real life, your physical attractiveness number is completely affected by your personality.

Overweight women, women with large noses, women who are older – name your physical bugaboo – all become sexier when attached to a bright, vibrant, positive, engaging personality. Which is why the photo test is, at best, limited.

Still, if you’re only holding out for men who have no interest in you, you’re probably overestimating yourself and should take it down a peg. Same exact advice applies to all men, so please, no angry comments, okay? ☺

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Comments:

  1. 91
    Margo

    Karl : “Eliza said: (#55)
    “Based on how society views beauty–you have to be 5’9, blond and weigh no more 120 lbs to be attractive.”

    That’s rather emaciated (a BMI of 17.7).”

    Karl,

    If that’s the way society views beauty, than what’s the point in pointing out YOUR view concerning the above weight. And I can guarantee that those Sports Illustrated models making the big bucks with droves of men begging at their feet don’t give a crap that some person finds them “emanciated”.

    Oh, and I will get back to you on that other thread re research. I’m behind in my class work right now.

  2. 92
    Helen

    Stacey 78 wrote: “took me 4 selective procedures before I could get a caliber of guy I wanted.”

    Stacey, your earlier comments made good points, but this one is sad (literally, not in an insulting way). Why couldn’t you go for a guy who liked you the way you were naturally? A guy who accepts you as you are is the guy who is worth your devotion, not these other guys whom you deem the “caliber” you wanted. What seems to be absent from this way of doing things is any notion of love. It sounds like pairing off based on superficial checklists. That is a sad way to look at the world, and doesn’t portend well for LTRs.

    I do think your earlier points are good, though. As nathan and Karl R pointed out in another thread, many men cannot help but be influenced by these airbrushed images that don’t represent reality. And we women cannot help thinking in some part of our minds that we’re supposed to try to emulate these images, since we see them everywhere. The best we can do is seek someone who, when they get to know us, loves our whole package, not just our looks or money.

    Karl R 75: “Those women care very much about the nerds’ outward appearance.”

    Casey 76: “most nerds are socially clueless, which certainly renders them less desirable to females who are relationship seeking. Definitely not the type most women aspire to date/marry. Though studies have shown that nerdy guys tend to make good husbands.”

    Stacey and others, might I suggest a nerd to you? :) I’ve been wondering why all the men around me (including my husband) are good, decent, loveable – they’re all nerds. Nerds are great. They don’t obsess about your looks. Usually they make decent salaries and don’t care what you make. They’re good conversationalists (unless you get them started on programming or gadgets). They’re smart. They’re interesting. Usually they’re honest and straightforward. Mate with them and you’ll have brilliant kids. ;) And yes, they do make good husbands. Win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win!

  3. 93
    Happy Person

    Karl, you need to go kiss someone right now!!! Someone who makes less money than you do!

  4. 94
    Stacey

    Karl:

    Yes I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me. So shoot me. I am the first generation wealth creator in my family, I have no patience for people who lack ambition and I am already subsidizing too many people as is.

    When I first started in NYC, I worked for a large firm and there was a lot of guys who I considered desirable mates, yet none of them ever wanted to date me. I would see them go to VS shows to pick up models, dating hot assistants (those are honestly the worst, once an assistant is banging someone in the office she’s useless), dating so called “actresses”/(waitresses) and so on. I got the memo, I made some improvements, suddenly I was dating power players, waay above my original ambition. Best money I ever spent. And in the meantime, I am watching my g/fs with terrific degrees, careers and money in the bank spending their best years gyrating between guys they have to support and total players, and ending up having donor kids.

    The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world. My personality, and other qualities have not changed one bit, yet i am suddenly a more attractive date based on my looks. So I go from not being able to date a guy in the office next door, to being engaged to a guy who makes 10x what I make, and you are trying to refute my very real life experience with some jibber-jabber, and your personal opinions? Pssh… This debate went completely off course, and feels a bit like a merry go round, so all I am gonna say is, I would encourage every woman who struggles in dating to revamp their looks first, personality/approach second. Attractive women get away with murder in terms of how they treat men, and they rarely need to strategize how to meet men – it just happens. Become the best you can [afford] and go for the best guy you can get.

  5. 95
    Stacey

    Happy Person #81: I am imagining the scale is in kilograms :) good catch though!

  6. 96
    Jadafisk

    73. Nerds/geeks are actually the men I’ve preferred first and foremost – and they definitely have racial preferences – they’re very well known for a higher than average tendency to aesthetically prefer East Asians (a bias I actually share, in lighter doses) sometimes exclusively, and their aversion to black women, while nowhere near as renowned, is, in my experience -your mileage may vary, I’m from the South – about as strong. Most of the conversations I’ve been privy to on the subject of race and attractiveness in women took place on nerd-heavy online forums, lightly peppered by some dudebro venues and overhearing some nerdy male friends and acquaintances. Part of the reason I feel that I meshed so well with majority male groups of nerds platonically is that my femaleness was partially obscured by my racial background, and they felt no undercurrent of sexual tension or nervousness about impressing me.

    I’m now with a guy who’s as far from nerdy as can be – outgroup men attracted to black women tend to be on that end of the spectrum… jocks, military guys and hip hop heads abound – and that’s the compromise I made when choosing to run more of an inverse match.

    And Paragon? I’ll just tell say that there’s an inherent supply/demand imbalance – that’s not where you think it is – that counteracts the desirability boost that a woman of color on a dating site or in a group specifically dedicated to interracial dating would experience.

  7. 97
    Nathan

    Some of the comments on this thread are astoundingly depressing. Looks don’t last and neither do relationships based upon them. Attractiveness is so much more than a set of measurements or hairstyle.

  8. 98
    Nicole

    @Jadafisk, 97, funny I was contemplating making the same comment about the preferences of nerdy guys. It’s very, very true. I’ve overheard many of the those comments in real life. Even with aesthetics aside, there is this stereotype that it’s hard to approach black women, or there are men who are somehow intimidated about being manly enough, so yes, the non-black men who approach are usually on the other end of the social spectrum. But even without it being true, it’s kind of hard dealing with someone who has no social skills. To me, that is a really part of what makes a man attractive or unattractive. I can’t deal with that level of awkward. Conversation is painful. Who could spend a lifetime like that?

    @Nathan, 98, it is kind of nuts, esp. since most people commenting are probably 30’s and beyond, but you saw how any people were outraged that a BF wouldn’t tell his GF she was the hottest thing ever, and a lot of people of both genders really do want arm candy even as they approach middle age. The ideas about what makes someone worthy is what I’d expect to hear from kids.

  9. 99
    Paragon

    @ Kathleen

    “Heres the highlight story that was on MSN last week for the guys who doubt the possibility that most women under rate their looks…

    “A recent study done by Dove Skincare has revealed some fascinating insights into how women perceive themselves and their own beauty. Here’s the good news: 78 percent of ladies surveyed want to see “real women” in beauty ads instead of celebrities and adolescent girls. Win! But here’s the bad news: the study also found that only one in eight British women polled do consider themselves attractive.”

    We cannot assume they are underrating their looks, without considering the standard of comparison, and thus what ‘attractive’ is really saying in terms of this study.

    But, it is obvious to me, that this perception of being ‘attractive’ contrasts the very top tier of female attractiveness, and thus, inescapably, the expected benefits reaped by the highest value women(including access to the highest value males, and all the benefits they have to offer).

    So, what these critical self-assessments(and corresponding anxieties) are really observing, is a conscious, pathological sense of relative deprivation which can only be exacerbated by according further sympathy to a problem of socialized entitlement.

    @ Stacey

    “Yes I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me.

    So shoot me.”

    That may be a little extreme, but you must understand that hypergamy is not a sympathetic consideration from the male
    perspective.

    “And in the meantime, I am watching my g/fs with terrific degrees, careers and money in the bank spending their best years gyrating between guys they have to support and total players, and ending up having donor kids.”

    Which, of course, all follows from their own personal *choices*.

    “The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world. My personality, and other qualities have not changed one bit, yet i am suddenly a more attractive date based on my looks. So I go from not being able to date a guy in the office next door, to being engaged to a guy who makes 10x what I make, and you are trying to refute my very real life experience with some jibber-jabber, and your personal opinions? Pssh… This debate went completely off course, and feels a bit like a merry go round, so all I am gonna say is, I would encourage every woman who struggles in dating to revamp their looks first, personality/approach second. Attractive women get away with murder in terms of how they treat men, and they rarely need to strategize how to meet men – it just happens. Become the best you can [afford] and go for the best guy you can get.”

    Please extend my best wishes and sympathies to your fiance.

    @ Jadafisk

    “I’m now with a guy who’s as far from nerdy as can be – outgroup men attracted to black women tend to be on that end of the spectrum… jocks, military guys and hip hop heads abound – and that’s the compromise I made when choosing to run more of an inverse match.”

    I can help but wonder if this is because black women have a popular reputation for being more dominant than white women, and nerds are intimidated by the prospect?

    “And Paragon? I’ll just tell say that there’s an inherent supply/demand imbalance – that’s not where you think it is – that counteracts the desirability boost that a woman of color on a dating site or in a group specifically dedicated to interracial dating would experience.”

    I’ll take your word for it, but I won’t pretend to understand, as I am one of these outgroup males(intelligent, but
    physically dominant – so perhaps there is some basis to a theory behind the kinds of outgroup males attracted to black
    women)who thinks the distinctive clinal traits of black women *enhance* their beauty, rather than detract from it.

    I am also under the impression that the beauty of black women is more highly valued just about everywhere outside NA(particularly Europe).

  10. 100
    Zaq

    I cannot help thinking, that in a purely natural selection sense, Stacey is correct.

    Evan is trying to square a circle here that doesn’t quite work. For example, how is a man, armed with reality that he is actually only a 4 going to have the confidence, let alone the enthusiasm to go out and be rejected by other unattractive 4s who cannot bring themselves to accept that they are not a 7. Get drunk ?
    I think Evan realizes this when he says that a little self delusion is healthy.

    Surely the advice should be DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO IMPROVE YOUR SCORE.
    And to those that say that ultimately looks do not matter, its only a foot in the door, character is what counts. Well even if that were true, if you cannot get through the door – its irrelevant.
    Is that not what Stacey, Ria and Mara are saying ?

  11. 101
    Helen

    Jadafisk 97 and Nicole 99: since you are black women, obviously your viewpoint is the relevant and right one re: nerds and prejudice, though that is disheartening to hear. I’d based my own statements on observing the black-white and black-Asian couples I’ve known growing up on both coasts and now living in the midwest – almost all of these marriages had one or both of the partners being nerds (scientists of all types, engineers, computer geeks). Then again, these are marriages, not necessarily relationships in general.

    Nicole: Not all nerds have no social skills, though probably more of them have this problem. On the whole, they tend to be more honest and blunt about things. And I completely agree with you that focusing on looks as far as LTRs is foolish.

  12. 102
    Karl R

    Stacey said: (#95)
    “I want my man to make at least what I make (preferably more) and be in a similar (or better) financial position to me.”
    “The sad truth is, we live in a very superficial world.”

    Excuse me for a minute, while I soak up the irony inherent in these statements.

    I found the dating world to be a far less superficial place than you do, but that difference is almost certainly a reflection of who we are and what we sought in a partner.

  13. 103
    Kathleen

    What I know to be true, at least for me being in the dating world after a lifetime of being married, is that the onus is on women to look as good as you possibly can. I make the investment in a personal trainer, clothes hair etc and it pays off
    Clearly most of the guys in my age group online don’t feel that pressure !! LOL!!!

  14. 104
    Mia

    So, a guy like Evan I’m sure was used to dating attractive women when he was single. Did that mean he wanted a ltr with each and every one of them, even those who leaned back and mirrored and waited for sex? Of course not! That’s just the baseline foot in the door standard– men don’t marry the prettiest girl that will date them. I feel like I’m listening to high schoolers talk

  15. 105
    Kathleen

    Mia

    Of course men don’t marry the prettiest girl they can get, but to attract attention in the first place is the starting point especially if we are talking about the online world

  16. 106
    Helen

    Karl R 103: I would agree that our experiences in relationships hinge largely upon what WE bring to the table. If we have superficial requirements, we will see superficiality in others. If we don’t, our experiences and relationships will have much more depth.

    Is this necessarily a sad state of affairs for Stacey, though? I don’t know. It seems possible that if both parties have wants that we deem “superficial” (she wants money, he wants looks), then they pair well together and can be happy together. My concern is that there doesn’t seem any room for love in such an arrangement. Beyond the looks and the moolah, do they actually love each other as people? What if his money disappears or her looks disappear – is the relationship over?

    But it may be possible that I am overemphasizing love. I’m trying to be open-minded about it, even if an initial reaction to this situation is unfavorable.

  17. 107
    Tom

    I actually admire Stacey, for knowing what she wants, and then doing something about it to get it, rather than moaning, or becoming bitter.

  18. 108
    Mia

    Kathleen–I get what you’re trying to say but it’s not that simple. I get frustrated bc I’m thin and pretty, 28, don’t sleep with men right away but don’t wait too long either, don’t call them unless I’m calling them back, pleasant and easygoing, and have been open to a variety of men, bald, poor, hot, hipster, nerd, old, young, writers, lawyers, businessmen, and still can’t get a boyfriend. Some I meet online, others in real life. And when I look around at who those decent men end up with they’re not prettier than me– some are far uglier and definitely aren’t as easygoing as me. I assume it’s bc they had a better connection with them or something. I’ve dated more than anyone I know too. So, I get very frustrated bc people — even Evan at times – make it seem like if you just do certain basic things you will get a bf and that is not at all true. Being pretty is one of those things but there are others.

  19. 109
    Nicole

    @Helen,
    The rates of “marrying out” for black men is much higher than for black women, esp. as you move up the economic ladder.

    So if I was placing bets, I’d imagine that most of those couples involved a black man and a woman of another race. So they prove kind of nothing for black women if that is in fact how they skewed.

    I do have a lot of friends who aren’t married to black men, and none of them are with guys that are nerdy or socially awkward. But they are all with the men that chose them.

    There are a lot of unfortunate stereotypes that black people deal with, but the men benefit from them when it comes to sex and love I think. But I have heard Asian males express outright FEAR at the idea of “being with ” a woman if she’s been with a black man, b/c one of my Asian friends had briefly dated a black man and her Asian male friends shared this thought.

    At any rate, the steretoypes about attractivness probably hit Asian men and Black women the same way and for similar reasons. And once people have that etched in their mind, as Jadafisk pointed out, you can be VERY attractive and get treated as if you are ugly just b/c of the color of your skin. Or you can be hot stuff among men your own race but get treated like nothing around other men.

    Not all “nerds” are socially awkward but then I wouldn’t necessarily call those people nerds at that point either. You can have stereotypically nerdy interests, or be in a stereotypically nerdy field but have good social skills and be an extrovert. I think of them as “nerds on paper.” I’d kind of read that way too based on my education and hobbies, but I am all kinds of social and very good with people.

  20. 110
    Helen

    Tom 108: The question is: would you want to marry a woman if you knew that she was marrying you primarily because you’re rich? I’m not posing this as a rhetorical question; I’m genuinely curious.

    Nicole 110: It is nearly an even balance of black men and black women who have married a member of another race that I know. Re: nerds, I mostly define them based on their interests, not social skills. Guess everyone has a different definition…

  21. 111
    lfl

    As a women, i’m embarassed to say that many women i know would marry a man for his title and money. I’m a jewish woman from Toronto. My brother married a chinese woman and most of his buddies are always looking at asian girls, and i can’t say i blame them, but the women hate it…

    I agree with stacey to an extent. Improve your fitness, wardrobe, makeup, whatever you need to do to help your chances, better to be working at improving rather than complaining how unfair everything is and doing nothing about it!

  22. 112
    Paragon

    @ Kathleen

    “What I know to be true, at least for me being in the dating world after a lifetime of being married, is that the onus is on
    women to look as good as you possibly can.”

    You mean the onus is on *you*, because you can only speak from your own experiences.

    @ Tom

    “I actually admire Stacey, for knowing what she wants, and then doing something about it to get it, rather than moaning, or becoming bitter.”

    You mean she’s not bitter?

    But, I think one of the reason she’s catching some flak here, is because of her evident self-serving bias(ie. positive
    outcomes are self-credited, while negative outcomes are disowned and attributed to external factors), and her
    tacit double-standards(ie. she rails againt the kinds of critical judgments – which she supposes men have used to disqulify her in the past – as some great social injustice, without equal consideration of her own critical judgements in disqualifying men).

    @ Nicole

    “There are a lot of unfortunate stereotypes that black people deal with, but the men benefit from them when it comes to sex and love I think. But I have heard Asian males express outright FEAR at the idea of “being with ” a woman if she’s been with a black man, b/c one of my Asian friends had briefly dated a black man and her Asian male friends shared this thought.”

    lol

    “At any rate, the steretoypes about attractivness probably hit Asian men and Black women the same way and for similar
    reasons. And once people have that etched in their mind, as Jadafisk pointed out, you can be VERY attractive and get treated as if you are ugly just b/c of the color of your skin. Or you can be hot stuff among men your own race but get treated like nothing around other men.”

    Yes, but I think this may speak more strongly to factors that inhibit approaches(intimidation, concerns of reciprocty, etc)
    from out-group males, rather than an indictment against black female beauty, per se.

  23. 113
    Saint Stephen

    I love Zaq!!!
    He gets award for making the most objective posts on Evan’s blog. He says things the way they are, not how we want them to be. Objectivity is what tells you that a 6 2″ attractive guy who makes a very good income is far more likely to meet the love of his life than let’s say.. 5 8″ average looking dude on average income. And it is also what lets you see that a woman in her twenties will get more potential suitors than another in her forties.

    I remember Zaq talking about the equity theory of love in one of Evan’s blog post. How relationships are formed based on what both parties bring to the table – a man bringing his wealth and experience, and the woman bring her looks.

    Stacey’s, comment somehow indicates the solid truth behind the equity theory of love.

    Helen asked:
    What if his money disappears or her looks disappear – is the relationship over?

    Answer: So? If the money disappears then according to the “equity theory of love” the relationship suffers or comes to a premature end (while she searches for someone with more money). On the flip side, if she losses her looks then he trades her for someone hotter and younger. But then she still gets to keep half is assets and his entire savings. Hence she’s adequately compensated for the cost incurred in polishing her looks.

    It’s truly a meat market and we all need to learn how it works because nobody wants anybody for who they are anymore. Oh Zaq, please never stop dropping the truth hammer. I really enjoy reading your comments – you make me understand how life works.

  24. 114
    Tom

    Hi Helen, well Stacey didn’t explicitly say she wants a man just because he’s rich, she said she wants someone who earns similar or more than her, which I think is reasonable. A man’s job often indicates more than his ability to buy her stuff, ie his drive, determination, ambition, reliability etc. She probably wants someone with similar characteristics and who’s reasonably attractive. It’s hard not to be impressed by the lengths she went to, to land her man. Like you and Nathan, I doubt it’s the perfect template for seeking longevity but at least she’s where she wants to be for now, through her own endeavour.

    @ LFL: do many men in Toronto have a title? :)

  25. 115
    mara

    @ saint stephen

    ‘truth hammer’? Please.
    You’d be surprised how many extremely wealthy men I have turned down (all of them in fact. And the look on their faces!);

    true stories:
    oh, so you are playing with the keys to your Lamborghini?
    whatever !
    oh, so you are a famous italian football player?
    whatever !
    oh, so you offered me a tour on your private helicopter?
    whatever!
    You guys can’t buy me, because you are shallow, and ugly inside out, no matter how much money you throw around to buy people’s friendship or sex (because money cannot buy love).

    You guys.
    If only you knew how many quality women like me are totally put off by those rich brats who think hot women are pretty accessories for their expensive cars.

    Keep thinking like this, you will attract what you deserve:
    a real goldigger, so you can confirm your paranoid assumptions.

    BTW
    I used to be a model, and I still look like one.
    Still, I’d never trade my ‘looks’ for any kind of money, and so all of my girls.
    Because you know, we have legs, but we also have a brain.
    And we know that this kind of men will trade you for the younger version.

  26. 116
    Nicole

    @Paragon 113, yes, as to the whole approach thing, it is so odd that people act like you need some special instructions to talk to black women…once again, stereotypes at work for you since we are far from a monolith.
    I’ve had people ask me that and I’m like, “um, how about Hello.”

  27. 117
    Zaq

    Thanks Saint Stephen !

    It is gratifying to know that there is someone on this blog that actually understands what I am saying.
    You are indeed correct. If the dynamic in the relationship changes as a result of one partner losing something the other partner values, then yes there is trouble ahead.
    Leil Lowndes gives examples of this in one of her books.

    I was interested in the study that showed that women married to wealthy men have more orgasms. This gives the lie to the idea that these unions are loveless. Its not just about the money.

    I’ll stick my neck out a little further. If a woman is beautiful, and she seeks a man of who is ambitious or has money, then whatever happens she should not marry anyone as attractive as her, or as young.
    Why ? Because her value can only go down, and interest accumulates – his value may sky rocket. It would make sense for her to choose someone of lower value with potential.
    I know a number of marriages that are under stress because the husbands are now wealthy and their wives have lost their looks. The young women the men work with see them as fair game.

    1. 117.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Zaq and St. Stephen – I hate to publicly rebuke you as loyal blog readers, but I find much of what you write to be somewhere between insensitive, wrongheaded, and distasteful. It’s always about looks, biology, DNA, and women who are young, thin, pretty and chaste.

      To our women readers who get into endless debates with these men: I apologize to you. You do not have to date them, and while they are an important (and all-too-common) representation of what many men think, they are not the men you’re looking for.

      Guys who get it: Karl and Nathan. If you’re disagreeing too much with them, you should potentially reconsider your argument. That said, while I pretty much disagree with everything that Zaq and St. Stephen write, I respect their willingness to write it. It’s just kind of tiring to read – just like it is with women on here who don’t seem to understand, like or respect men.

  28. 118
    Happy Person

    Stacey@96: OMG, what if the scale is in stones! How can those Brits use something called a stone as a unit of weight measurement. “I weigh 70 stones!! I wanna jump off a bridge!” I think a stone is about 2 1/2 pounds.

    I wanna marry Nathan!!! And I wanna kiss Karl on the cheek and then kick him in the shin! (too many data points)

    Paragon, your posts are too long.

  29. 119
    justme

    Thanks Evan.

  30. 120
    Paragon

    @ Tom

    ” A man’s job often indicates more than his ability to buy her stuff, ie his drive, determination, ambition, reliability etc.”

    A man’s particular profession only tells me ‘something’ about his relative aptitude and skill set.

    But, I haven’t observed any reliable connection between the kinds of qualities you alluded to(and savvy women have come to appreciate this).

    “She probably wants someone with similar characteristics”

    Self-entitled and resentful?

    “It’s hard not to be impressed by the lengths she went to, to land her man.”

    Then why are you the only one impressed by this(ie. I imagine the surgeons did all the work)?

    What concerns me about women like this, is that they come across as very resentful at having to invest any effort(or money as the case may be) in improving their relationship prospects.

    To me this implies a sense of self-entitlement, which, I think is fair to say, is *not* a quality anyone looks for in a potential partner.

    Personally, I’ve invested a super-human amount of time/effort into improving my prospects, and pursuing my relationship goals.

    It was(and continues to be) hard work – but that is not something I blame on women.

    It is simply not productive.

    But, maybe I am wrong about her, because many of us come across differently online(myself included).

    @ Mara

    “You’d be surprised how many extremely wealthy men I have turned down (all of them in fact. And the look on their faces!);”

    I believe you.

    “You guys can’t buy me, because you are shallow, and ugly inside out, no matter how much money you throw around to buy people’s friendship or sex (because money cannot buy love).”

    I’ve known about women like you for a long time, and I thank God for them.

    “You guys.
    If only you knew how many quality women like me are totally put off by those rich brats who think hot women are pretty accessories for their expensive cars.”

    Yes, and you can see them frequently rejecting the losers on Millionaire matchmaker, lol.

    @ Zaq

    “I was interested in the study that showed that women married to wealthy men have more orgasms. ”

    Yup – after all, wealthy men tend to employ pool-boys. :-P

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