Is Your City the Reason You’re Single? Or Is It You?

is-your-city-the-reason-youre-single-or-is-it-you

Cosmopolitan recently posted a pretty page called The State of Dating, with a series of articles about, well, the state of dating. You can read about Instagram hookups, $5000 dating services, Tinder dates, and where to meet a guy who doesn’t suck.

But my favorite article was by Jada Yuan, a thirtysomething New Yorker who went to six different cites to experience what it was like to be single there: New Bern, NC, Miami, FL, Austin, TX, Sioux Falls, SD, Detroit, MI and Los Angeles, CA.

It’s a rollicking ride, filled with cute, if predictable dating mishaps for those who have been in the trenches for a long time. There’s an over-reliance on dating apps, texting, and the belief in chemistry and common interests, which along with the inherent randomness of online dating, leads to highly mixed results. But Yuan is
honest, and despite her blue-state, millennial tendencies and blind spots, she is a likable narrator.

There’s an over-reliance on dating apps, texting, and the belief in chemistry and common interests, which along with the inherent randomness of online dating, leads to highly mixed results.

My favorite part was her conclusion of her epic journey, which echoes a lot of what you’ve read on this site:

“I didn’t find the magic pill that transforms Netflix and chill into horse-drawn carriage rides on this trip, alas, but that anvil of stagnation and defeat I was carrying around is gone. Because once you hear enough beautiful, smart ambitious women around the country complain about hookup culture, and the lack of decent guys, and how dating apps are making us all disposable, you realize that we’re all in the same muck. And we’re all very capable of getting out of it.

Being single isn’t a judgment against you. Yes, dating is hard. Yes, location matters — you’ll run into last night’s date at a diner in New Bern, and that guy who’d said he’d call in L.A. never will. But when it comes to forming genuine human connections, location doesn’t matter as much as you think.

I’ve had more robust, inspiring, sing-from-the-rooftops dating experiences on this trip than I’ve had over the last two years. And while the change of scenery was a big part of that, I firmly believe that the most important factor was that I changed. I physically got off my ass, stopped moaning about men in New York, and, with a kick in the pants from a writing assignment, went out and made shit happen. I’m not suggesting you go on a whirlwind dating tour of the United States; just figure out how to create your own reset button, in your own town. Accept responsibility for your dating destiny. Like, right now! Put up your hand and repeat after me: “I will no longer enable douche-y guys. I will be my own superhero against bitch-ass behavior. I will seek out someone who treats me well.” Then repeat it again until you believe that it’s possible and you deserve it.”

Boldface is mine.

The next step is yours.

Do you blame your city for your love life? Does it stop you from dating even though you know that effort is the only thing that gets results?

Your thoughts, as always, are greatly appreciated.

 

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Comments:

  1. 1
    FG

    The city per say is not necessarily the issue. Nor is the person in play, meaning the relationship or date seeker.

    Take the state of Vermont. Nice, green, lush, and cold half the year. Population 650,000 (give or take). For the ENTIRE state. Median age around 38, with the population demographics lump in the 35-55 bracket.

    Typically laid back, welcoming, and Burlington, the largest “city” (town) is 50K. A far cry from Austin’s 6th St in terms of action and thrills.

    Finding a partner in VT would be daunting. Sprawl (countryside), low density, and low numbers in terms of singles would make the quest a difficult one. But at least it might be fun. Large population centers are less personable and hospitable.

    If not involved by 35, the challenges seem to grow exponentially. People capable of commitment and willing are likely off the market. We often mention divorce rates, but seldom tie the % to economic stability or lack thereof. In upper-middle class and above, people tend to have longer lasting, enduring relationships.

    Do you FIT in your city? If a crazy, free-wheeling gal or guy, in an ultra conservative environment (seemingly, as scratching the surface may reveal some perplexing aspects), finding a partner naturally becomes more difficult.

    1. 1.1
      Stacy2

      That, exactly- the fit. There needs to be some congruence between the location and what you are looking for and who you are. If you are the only “creative” 35 yo type in the Hicksville and you want to date a liberal creative type you’ll be single for a long time. Etc.

    2. 1.2
      Krystal

      Agreed! Dating outside of Burlington Vermont, is daunting. Good luck with that.

      1. 1.2.1
        Sum Guy

        What?!  I live outside Boston and all the best Matches (on paper) seem to be in New Hampshire and Rhode Island. 🙂

        Agreed, location and population density make a big difference.  I’m not enamored at all with the lifestyles of cites, or suburbs, and not from the east coast, so a bit of a fish out of water, yet still meet wonderful women.  Which I chalk up to population density and being patient and open.

        I really wonder what goes on in NYC where I hear complaints how hard it is to date or make friends,  if you are into city things and the city lifestyle, you have literally millions of people there, and probably over a hundred thousand eligible singles.  How is there are no good women or no good men there?  Does NYC magically turn people self-centered?

  2. 2
    Stacy

    Sorry, but after reading this article, I am even MORE inclined to believe that location is at least half the battle. It also makes me appreciate Philadelphia a little more.

    Nevertheless, she is a great writer and the article was very engaging.

  3. 3
    Suzanne

    Location can be a reason why you are single. In my case I’m sure it is. I don’t live in USA, I live in a central Europe in a country whith only 2m people, in a small town with 14 000 people, where most of them are 65+. I use online dating but there is always distance an issue. So yes, a location can be a reason why someone is single.

  4. 4
    Noquay

    Agree with FG and the Stacys. Location, values, demographics are huge factors. I was hoping a more liberal, yet literally and figuratively Green place like Vermont was the answer. Here in Colorado, there’s  a huge area of cities/suburbs where in summer it’s  hot, dry, dusty, with high costs of living vs wages and  (now) rife with marijuana panhandlers and huge homeless populations. Mountain towns, such as this one, are cooler, green, incredible Alpine environments, a Mecca for fellow outdoors fanatics – for three months of the year. The other nine months are often harsh, lonely, isolating. Turnover rates of educated folk at our institution and regionally are astronomical, particularly among women.  While I am willing to commute to the city on weekends for a relationship, most city men with options are not willing to reciprocate. Eventually, they find someone local and discard/cheat on you or had someone else all along and neglected to mention it. After being overlapped and discarded yet again despite doing everything in my power to be the ideal girlfriend, taking advice from Evan, Rori, others, I give up. When I lived in areas with a pool of local educated folk, this behavior was extremely rare despite my living 20+ miles from town and having far fewer relationship skills. I’ve worked hard to “fix” me but cannot fix the overall situation. At nearly 57, I too will soon discard a six figure job, sell out, and cast fate and career to the winds rather than be forced to be single in a place where being a happy single is impossible. Scary.

  5. 5
    dandy

    I live in one of the top ten worst cities for singles in the US.  quite a few dating services, speed dating events, etc have ended up just shutting down due to lack of men.  At most of these events the ratio of women to men is way off(this is for events for folks from their 20’s – 40’s). I live in a fairly large city with several world renowned universities and colleges, and many ppl relocate here for jobs.

  6. 6
    B

    Dandy,

    I am sorry to hear about your situation. Out of curiousiy, in which city do you live?

    1. 6.1
      Jenny

      My bet is on Washington, DC area.

    2. 6.2
      dandy

      Pittsburgh PA

  7. 7
    Yet Another Guy

    I posted the information below to another blog entry; however, it fits this one as well.

    It is no secret that I am a bit of a data guy.   I wanted to know why finding a date today is trivial compared to what the experience was like when I was a younger man.  What I have discovered is not going to make college-educated American women happy.   The shortage of college-educated single men in America is not perceived.  It is real, and the shortages span most age ranges, with the top and bottom age ranges most negatively affected.  Where a woman lives further compounds the shortage of college-educated single men.  For example, where I live the ratio of college-educated single women to college-educated single men in the 45 to 64 age range is between 1.5 and 2.0 to 1 depending on county.  Unless a woman is willing to be alone or share a man with another woman, she is going to have to consider non-college educated men.  The shortages in the 45+ age ranges are in large part caused by death, as there was parity or a slight oversupply of college-educated men in these brackets at one point.  The problem at the bottom is an unintended side-effect of Title IX leading to higher acceptance rates for female applicants at universities that accept federal funds (women tend to be better applicants because they mature earlier than men and do not engage in risky behavior that can lead to trouble with law enforcement).  The page linked below has interactive map that details male/female ratios in the United States.  One can select on age range and education.

    http://labs.time.com/story/see-the-ratio-of-single-men-to-women-where-you-live

  8. 8
    Noquay

    YAG

    Speaking from personal experience, dating and marrying outside ones socioeconomic and educational level often does not work. Huge differences in lifestyle, values, and future goals. Younger women do often marry men very dissimilar to themselves in order to have kids before it’s too late; all those marriages I knew of died shortly after the kids were grown. Most men want to be providers and uneducated men in particular do not like being outperformed by their partners. It’s true, as an educator of some 30 years, female students have fewer disciplinary issues and much higher retention rates.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          I encountered this book a while ago, but did not purchase it until recently when GWtF took me to task for being too selective.  My experience just did not align with what she was saying.   I cannot remember a time when it was easier get a date or obtain sex than it is today. When one is a mid-fifties male graduate degree holder who is in the twenty percent of the male population that the female population seems to target, the world is one’s oyster.    With the two to one female to male ratio in my age group in my local area, the tendency of women to target twenty percent of the male population means that there are ten women for every man in this pool.  There is little incentive for the men in this select group to commit when it is more difficult to get rid of a woman than it is to obtain a date.  My advice is for women to consider all of the college-educated men in the pool.

          By the way, I can personally attest to the scarcity of women in STEM-related careers.  A female hardware/software engineer is like a unicorn.  That is why the male to female ratio is so high in the San Francisco Bay Area.

           

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG

          I cannot remember a time when it was easier get a date or obtain sex than it is today. When one is a mid-fifties male graduate degree holder who is in the twenty percent of the male population that the female population seems to target, the world is one’s oyster.  

          Then how do you have time to make comments on this site? Shouldn’t you be knee-deep in pu**y? Your posts are like that old Saturday Night Live skit “Debbie Downer.”

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          You crack me up!  Just because dating is easier than it has ever been does not mean that I am dating every day of the week.  That gets to be an expensive proposition.   There was time when obtaining a date required significant effort and a man had to deal with a high probability of getting rejected.  Today, the dating situation is reversed.  Did I take advantage of the imbalance when my ex and I split? Absolutely!  Did I tell women what they wanted to hear? Absolutely!  However, there is little to be gained by continuing that behavior after one has gone through one’s post-separation period.  All it does is result in a wake of women who hate you, a few of which are emotionally unstable enough to give you pause.  Lorena Bobbitt taught us that every man has to sleep at some point. 🙂

        4. KK

          YAG,

          “All it does is result in a wake of women who hate you, a few of which are emotionally unstable enough to give you pause.  Lorena Bobbitt taught us that every man has to sleep at some point”.

          What does this say about your investigation skills?

           

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @KK

          Most of the unstable encounters were early in the game.  They are part of the reason why I started to do my homework before agreeing to meet a woman.   I also never agree to meet a woman before we speak on the telephone.   That requirement is also the result of a few bad experiences.   A telephone conversation is an effective method for weeding potential dates.

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Did I tell women what they wanted to hear? Absolutely!  However, there is little to be gained by continuing that behavior after one has gone through one’s post-separation period.  All it does is result in a wake of women who hate you, a few of which are emotionally unstable enough to give you pause.

          Your desire not to bullshit women should really derive from your conscience and not from a fear of Glenn Close-like stalkers.

        7. Emily, the original

          YAG

          And another thing: If sex is as easy to get as you claim and women are just throwing themselves at you, why the need to bullshit at all? If one woman says no to a no-strings-attached encounter, wouldn’t there be plenty of others who would be, as they say, “dtf”?

        8. KK

          “If sex is as easy to get as you claim and women are just throwing themselves at you, why the need to bullshit at all?”.

          My thoughts exactly, Emily.

          YAG, I find a lot of your statements incredibly (cough, cough)… interesting because you contradict yourself so often. Not too long ago you were complaining about being turned down due to your “separated status”. So which one is true? Your original complaint that women won’t date a separated guy or that women throw themselves at separated guys?

        9. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          Easier to obtain is a relative thing.  When I was younger, I rarely encountered a situation where sex was offered before the third date unless a substantial amount of alcohol was involved.  Today, sex on the first or second date is the norm.  H0wever, a man still has to tell a woman want she wants to hear.  If you have never encountered a man who told you wanted to hear, then consider yourself lucky because most men are programmed to do it.   For example, if a woman has cellulite on her backside, only a fool would tell her that she has a fat ass.   No, he will tell her what she wants to hear.  A woman also wants to be told that she is beautiful and sexy by a man who she desires.  Men are nowhere near as selective as women when it comes to sexual partners, so men lie on a regular basis.

           

        10. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          For example, if a woman has cellulite on her backside, only a fool would tell her that she has a fat ass. 

          How would that even come up in conversation? She probably knows she has cellulite. Most women are very aware of their flaws. Unless she just wants to be lied to, why would she bring it up?

          If you have never encountered a man who told you wanted to hear, then consider yourself lucky because most men are programmed to do it.

          I probably have, but I’d much rather have a man just point-blank proposition me than go through the process of dating me if he’s just interested in a hook up. Dating is nerve-wracking and time-consuming. No need to go through it if we’re just going to get down to business.

           

           

        11. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          I probably have, but I’d much rather have a man just point-blank proposition me than go through the process of dating me if he’s just interested in a hook up. Dating is nerve-wracking and time-consuming. No need to go through it if we’re just going to get down to business.

          You are not definitely not the norm.  You are more like a guy.   Most of the women that I date want a man to at least make an effort; however, then again, I tend to date very feminine women (a.k.a. girly girls).   There is the rare woman who just wants to get down to business, but the women I encounter reflexively exhibit anti-slut defense even if they want strip down to bare flesh.

        12. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          You are not definitely not the norm.  You are more like a guy.   Most of the women that I date want a man to at least make an effort;

          Well, even in a hook up situation, the man has to make some effort. A proposition is effort. Finding the right time/place/how to broach the topic, making the move, being suave/smooth enough to ensure the possibility of a repeat performance a week later (if that’s what he wants).

          however, then again, I tend to date very feminine women (a.k.a. girly girls).  

          I look very feminine and can be soft but also have a Bettie Davis side that pops out!

          There is the rare woman who just wants to get down to business.

          Depends on the offer and the man. If it’s someone I’m really attracted to and it’s obvious there’s not much else going on (meaning this isn’t a guy I’d want to date), why not? I actually had one last week. It was his suggestion to do it but I picked the place and made the physical move.

  9. 9
    Noquay

    YAG

    Read the book yesterday and Evans review. When I leave here, whether it be in a month or 9 months, depending on this weeks job interview, I am both hopeful and sadly, wondering if I should shoot myself in the head now or leave society all together.

    Evans review is spot on. It’s not just numbers, it’s also attitude, the work one is willing to put in to find someone compatible. Among professional level/educated single women in my circle (aged 37-72, N=38; I too like data) you see the very things Evan stated. Only one woman is happily partnered. Most did give up or are currently not looking; all but ten have left yet still refuse to date. A fourth of us, including myself, do the hard work to stay healthy and fit. One unhappily partnered woman dated way down and supports a pothead, dropout, laborer. She’s afraid to be alone, won’t leave, and is miserable.

    I would have no problem dating someone uneducated who is a skilled artisan or tradesperson who fits some criteria; financially responsible and stable, drug free, non smoker, responsible drinker, practices good self care, emotionally and physically healthy, treats others with kindness and consideration, free of redneck values, kids grown and gone (I’m 56), intellectually curious, and interested in a monogamous ltr/marriage. An old soul myself, I do best with older guys, and date up to early 70’s. However, as is happening nationwide, our blue collar sector is falling apart; issues with drug/alcohol abuse, declining health, opiate addiction, domestic violence.  Issues far beyond dating.

    Successful men at all educational levels have many options and cheating apparently is an accepted Western behavior, one no woman should accept.

    According to Evan and others, I did everything right with the rships/dates I’ve had here: Lowered my standards somewhat regarding shared interests, political beliefs, his appearance,  was really feminine, nurturing and supportive. Made him a priority while also working a demanding job, maintaining/fixing a large home solo and running a small farm. Didn’t matter, they lived 100+ miles away and either cheated/overlapped or had problems that limited their options back home. Used to hate on myself thinking I was the problem but then found (more data here) ALL single women here face the same issues and again, this rarely happened in the 30 years I lived further East which is where I will be headed next.

    Evan is also right about NOT heading West. In the cities, housing is high, wages not high enough for most. Housing for me would be 3x than it is here, my salary for the same position half. Here in Colorado, perhaps the single most factor in the deterioration of the social fabric, including the dating scene, is the legalization of pot. We’ve been flooded with mainly men with few skills and huge pot habits. It’s hard to find drug-free labor. Healthcare and social service sectors are being overwhelmed. Numbers of homeless and panhandlers have skyrocketed. Stoned students and drivers are now a serious problem.

     

    1. 9.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Noquay

      You and I are the same age, but our dating experiences are polar opposites.   It was interesting how Birger used the word “harem” to describe the conditions that many young men experience in college today because that is the word that one of my sisters used to describe my dating experience.

      1. 9.1.1
        Chris

        Not many men in any demographic could have a “harem”, only a select few. If you are one of these Alpha males then are you to be congratulated I suppose.

        But not every man without a college degree is going to be an wastrel. If ladies like Noquay find college educated men to be in short supply, perhaps they might want to consider men without degrees, but carefully screen each one on a case by case basis.

         

         

        1. Emily, the original

          But not every man without a college degree is going to be an wastrel.

          Agreed. Just because you don’t have a college degree doesn’t mean you aren’t literate or well-informed. And though it’s a cliche’, blue collar guys are sometimes more masculine, which can be very sexy.

        2. Luka

          Chris,

          It might be easier than you think. I’m a normal guy, good looking/avg height, early 30’s with a decent job (but nothing special) and I have a steady stream of short term girlfriends. Right now I’m between relationships and have a few girls I’m seeing casually. It’s not unusual among my friends. I’m more relationship oriented than most guys in my age group (hence I’m hear reading about them:)) but if not, in a decent sized city with Tinder, guys (and women, of course) just have a so many options.

        3. Noquay

          Chris

          In an earlier post, I stated my criteria, if I could find someone intellectually curious, attractive, articulate, etc, I’d give him a chance. I know of many well educated men who are wastrels, ski bums, etc; our region attracts these. The last rship was with someone not well educated, yet successful; he cheated with someone from his area while seeing me. Not so much degree as not having done his healing after being widowed and poor character. For me, every rship with non degree holders has ended in disaster whereas fellow PhDs, including my then husband, went the distance. Theoretically, there should be a ton of healthy, educated men in the vicinity; I get tons of complimentary emails from on liners but distance and the impoverished nature of this town is a problem with them. Hated on myself thinking I’m too ugly, too Native, too socially inept, too whatever til I started talking to other women here. They have the same issue regardless of age, education, socioeconomic status. That’s why I’m trying to bail.

      2. 9.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @Chris

        Not many men in any demographic could have a “harem”, only a select few. If you are one of these Alpha males then are you to be congratulated I suppose.

        I hear the alpha male excuse used all of the time by guys who have difficulty obtaining dates.   The number one reason why guys who have something to offer a woman do not get dates is because they fail to project masculine energy.  There is a difference between being a nice guy and being a good guy.   A good guy is a nice guy who projects masculine energy. Evan routinely reminds women that they need to project feminine energy.  Well, men have to project masculine energy.  Masculine energy makes a woman feel protected.

        The average American woman is 5’4″.  The average American man is 5’9″.  That is a 5″ difference in height.  The average young American man has 45 pounds on the average young American woman.  He has 18% body fat.  She has 24% body fat.   More of his weight is carried above his waist, which means that he has significantly more upper body strength.

        Most woman have had to deal with men objectifying them since they developed breasts (Stacy2 is the queen of expressing hate toward men who objectify women on this blog, but I digress).  The average woman has to deal with the very real danger that a man will take her by force.  Most sexual assaults are perpetrated by men who the victim knew; therefore, women need to be mindful of there surroundings 24x7x365.  Women experience more fear than men, and their response to fear invoking stimuli is different.  The female response to fear invoking stimuli is to become fearful whereas it causes men to get angry, which is the fight response to danger.

        Where I am going with this post?   Well, they key here is projecting masculine energy while simultaneously projecting trustworthiness.  Any man who projects both of those traits has zero problem getting women.  He may not get 10s (only truly gifted men do), but he will get women.  This phenomenon can be witnessed in any club.  There is always a muscular guy who has women standing around him laughing at his jokes.  They are drawn to him because he is projecting masculine energy while appearing to be trustworthy.  The reason why women like men who are funny is because humor alleviates fear.

         

  10. 10
    Stacy2

    The Dateanomics argument about lopsided college admissions has an obvious blind spot, which is that it became lopsided after 1981 and did so gradually. So, if somebody (which I guess is the majority here) was born before 1981, or even before mid 1980-ies, or is dating people in that generation, this per se shouldn’t be an issue at all. It may affect future generations, but is NOT the problem that today’s 40-yolds are facing, folks.

    The fact that most women will want those top 20% of men and most men will want those 20% of women is a  completely different issue. I’d say that was probably always the case, however historically women had to “compromise” because they needed to get married to have more or less normal life, however nowadays they don’t. Men also had to compromise on stuff that was important to them, and they still do – because evidently having regular sex has higher premium for men than having a husband (just any husband) is to women.  So here you have it, men will compromise for the sake of sex (i.e. marry someone who’s not all that), but women won’t compromise for the sake of marriage (i.e. would rather remain single than marry someone who’s not all that)

    1. 10.1
      Luka

      Some interesting points in here, but off the mark I feel. Guys aren’t looking to date top 20% of women in educational terms, I thought this was common knowledge. We’re not prejudiced against education, but its way down on our list of priorities. Hence there’s no squeeze on ‘successful’ 40 year women in the way there is on men. These guys are looking to date younger women of varying statuses. Thats where the imbalance comes from. Also no guy is getting married for regular sex unless he lives in an extremely religious and conservative part of the part, or he has orthodox religious beliefs himself.

      1. 10.1.1
        Luka

        edit* part of the world*

      2. 10.1.2
        Stacy2

        Guys aren’t looking to date top 20% of women in educational terms

        I am not saying that they are. They’re looking to date top 20% in terms of looks and other superficial characteristics, obviously, as the more shallow gender.

         

        1. Luka

          Aright sorry i misread, but even by that standard its questionable. Given that the qualities men are looking for in a wife are more attainable, ie those tendencies that imply good mothering abilities, it doesn’t follow that only the top 20% of women will have them. Any woman could. This exactly is the issue for women, too many of them are marriageable – 100% of women competing for the top few percent of men (mainly in financial terms)Its a unidirectional prejudice, or there’d be no problem.

          This all varies somewhat depending on demographic as well, obvs. I’m really talking about the prelude to marriage, which is the most important dating range as it involves the biggest commitment (children). For older divorcees it may vary, and it definitely does among the young, where Stacy2’s point about men all wanting the hottest girls rings true.

      3. 10.1.3
        Yet Another Guy

        The imbalance is multi-factor.  Fortysomething men dating younger women is minor fraction of the imbalance.  One that is mostly myth because most men cannot attract a woman 10+ years their junior.   The fact that gay men are disproportionately college graduates is also a factor.  Another critical part is early death.

        1. Luka

          Its not a myth because the men that women actually want can attract women of all ages. Thats the whole point. The most men are not the desirable ones.

        2. Stacy2

          the men that women actually want can attract women of all ages

          You are are speaking in vague absolutes and it doesn’t make much sense. Only a small subset of “men that women actually want” can attract women of “any” age, and those would be very specific type of women. Mick Jagger and Donald Trump were able to attract women 30+ years their junior. However, an average top-10% earner (say a mid-level corporate executive) will not be able to do the same. Both types are “the kind of men that women want”, yet only a tiny majority can actually pull off a much younger woman. Enough to make an entertaining headline, not enough to factor in the statistics. And, of course, the women who enter these arrangements are of the specific kind. Most women would not do it for all the money in the world.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Stacy2

          Wow!  I am finding myself agreeing with you twice in the same day.  The world must be coming to an end. 🙂

          Well-educated men who take care of themselves can easily date women ten years their junior.  I do it on regular basis.  However, few men can pull off a date with a woman twenty-plus years their junior.  The belief that men are all dating younger women is more myth than reality.   There are just fewer college-educated single men than college-educated single women in most of the age brackets in many areas of the country.  The problem is further complicated by the fact that men are less selective when it comes to educational attainment level.

    2. 10.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Stacy2

      What you are not taking into account is that men start to die off at age 40 and white-collar men are more likely to commit suicide than blue collar-men.  Licensed professionals have the highest suicide rates of any male demographic.

      http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-more-white-collar-workers-are-at-risk-for-suicide-2015-07-01

      In the end, you can choose to stick you head in the sand, but the numbers do not lie.  The map that I posted above was compiled from real data.

      1. 10.2.1
        Stacy2

        0.01% of U.S. population dies by suicide per year (13.26 per 100,000 people). That includes men, women, and teenagers. I think it is safe to say we can discount that factor as insignificant. Male life expectancy is 76.5 years old.

        I think i already said this before, but the absolute number of buyers and sellers (men and women) in a non-commodity market such as dating is more or less  irrelevant. This is the main flaw of Dateanomics. It looks at the dating market as if it was a commodity market (e.g. oil market is a commodity market as every barrel of oil is basically the same), whereas in reality it is a non-commodity market (e.g. cell phones market is non-commodity market where you have higher value apple iPhone and an LG flip phone for example). Dating market is like cell phones. If you’re an iPhone, people will line around the block to get you. If you’re a flip phone, they can’t give them away for free with a prepaid plan even. You get the idea. So, the absolute numbers are irrelevant to predicting one’s chances, it’s really just the quality and desirability of each individual.

        1. Stacy2

          And, to drive the analogy further, theoretically Apple may over-produce their iPhones, i.e. have more than there’re potential buyers, but they still wouldn’t discount them and sell at 20-50% off, they would rather write it off or carry inventory – this is brand preservation. This is exactly the same in dating, where some maximizers would rather remain single than “discount” and settle for less than what they think is their worth.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          Even if we are looking at things from a non-commodity point of view 20% of a larger supply is a larger number of desirable men.

          Something big is at play here because I turn down women today who were beyond my reach when I was younger man.  Have I moved from being a flip phone to being an iPhone?  I do not believe that that is the case.  It is more a case of demand exceeding supply.  Women are maximizers.  Given two men who are equal in all regards except for the fact that one man holds a graduate degree and the other man holds an undergraduate degree.  Women will fight over the graduate degree holder while ignoring the undergraduate degree holder.  The same phenomenon occurs when two man are equal in all regards exception for one is 5’9″ and the other is 6’0″.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          *men are equal

        4. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Given two men who are equal in all regards except for the fact that one man holds a graduate degree and the other man holds an undergraduate degree.  Women will fight over the graduate degree holder while ignoring the undergraduate degree holder.  The same phenomenon occurs when two man are equal in all regards exception for one is 5’9″ and the other is 6’0″.

          How good looking are the men? I think women would fight over the undergraduate degree holder who is 5’9″ if he looks like Brad Pitt (and I mean Brad Pitt today, who in his 50s still looks very good) versus an average-looking man with more education and bit more height.

        5. Stacy2

          @YAG:

          It is categorically untrue about grad vs. undegrad degree. I don’t know a single woman who’d turn down a guy with “only” a bachelor’s. This just doesn’t happen in significant numbers. At some point in your life it’s what you’ve made of yourself, not where you went to school. I’ve dated guys equally impressive who had PhDs and who went to a trade school. By 40 it is all about how well you’ve played the hand you were dealt.

          A taller guy may have an advantage (all other things equal – though they’re never equal) – but again my sense is that once a guy clears 5’10” there’s diminishing returns on incremental inches.

          As far as your situation, I don’t know you – perhaps your SMV has improved with age, or perhaps you’re bullshitting us here, who knows 🙂 both things happen. I also get a sense that you’re not Caucasian (that is just my wild guess) so that may be a factor too.

        6. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original and Stacy2

          You ladies are conveniently ignoring that the fact that I stated that both men were equal in all regards except for height or education.  That means all attributes except for height or education.   In that situation, women will chose the better educated or taller man because woman tend to be maximizers.  It is a well-documented primal behavior.

           

        7. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          That means all attributes except for height or education.   In that situation, women will chose the better educated or taller man because woman tend to be maximizers.  It is a well-documented primal behavior.

          They are probably picking the guy who they are more attracted to, something that is primal, hormonal and hard-wired. Attraction usually defies logic and I doubt given two choices, women are equally attracted to both. We aren’t men!  🙂

        8. KK

          “It is categorically untrue about grad vs. undegrad degree. I don’t know a single woman who’d turn down a guy with “only” a bachelor’s.”

          Agreed, Stacy2.

          There are other circumstances that women take into consideration and weigh more heavily. For instance, how long is he on the hook for alimony or child support? When that ends, will he be paying for college? All other things being equal, I can guarantee a woman will choose a man without financial obligations over one who is still supporting his ex or his children.

  11. 11
    Stacy

    Well, I think I am usually quite successful in dating (even before my current beau) because I have been open to not just college educated men (although if you aren’t, you have to be fairly successful and intelligent).  My boyfriend does not have a lot of formal higher education, but he can hold his own in probably any conversation, is well traveled, can cook like a chef, has a good job, can clean better than most women I’ve ever met, is excellent in bed, is loyal and has a good temperament and is kind.  I on the other hand hold a Masters Degree. We get along splendidly. If women were to be a bit more open to ‘other’ types of men, I think there are way  more options than we think there are.

    1. 11.1
      Marika

      Totally agree, Stacy. Letting go of the idea that somehow formal education level & being a good partner are aligned is a smart strategy. Until I started following this blog, I must admit I assumed I’d end up with someone with a degree, but when I really thought it through, the only reason that is, is because for most of my life I’ve been surrounded by other people with degrees (obviously during my studies and in professional jobs). With online dating and dating past your 20s when you’re expanding your network, you end up meeting a wide variety of people with a range of jobs and education levels. I’m grateful for that, as I have not found that men with degrees make better partners. Which is a useful lesson to learn.

      YAG, as I’ve mentioned before and Stacy2 agreed in this thread, a graduate degree does not make you more attractive to women than a degree. Not one woman I’ve ever met in my life has cared about a graduate degree over an undergrad. I think you keep making this point because it fits with your hypergamy/woman are maximisers thing. But you really need to let it go. In fact, if a man is too invested in his education level and how great that it is, it makes him a worse date, in my experience (an intellectual snob is not a fun person to hang around). I don’t wear my MA as some badge of honour, and in fact play it down in dating. I just needed it for the job I wanted, nothing more. Your continued claims that someone like me would prefer a guy with a graduate degree are completely untrue.

      Even among the women who’ve made the point that they’d prefer a man with a degree due to socioeconomic reasons/aligned values, none of them that I’ve seen have said that the man has to have a higher degree.

      1. 11.1.1
        Stacy

        @Marika,

         

        Exactly!!

      2. 11.1.2
        Henriette

        To be fair to YAG, I do know one woman who far preferred to date guys with advanced degrees to those who hold “just” a degree.  She ended up marrying a man with a PhD from one of the world’s top schools, because that was extremely important for and attractive to her.  She also got good looking (to her, certainly not to me), athletic, virile, high net worth, only 1 year older than her, with integrity.   However, she did not prioritize – or get – a man who is thoughtful, good communicator, easygoing, funny, respectful, fun or empathetic; although they are newlyweds, I don’t think the marriage is shaping up to be the kind of supportive union I would want.

        So, yes, YAG, there might be a few women who prioritize traits like advanced degrees, but chances are they aren’t the ones who know what it takes to co-create a deeply happy long-term relationship.  Is that what you want?

  12. 12
    Stacy

    YAG SAID,

    @Emily, the original and Stacy2

    You ladies are conveniently ignoring that the fact that I stated that both men were equal in all regards except for height or education.  That means all attributes except for height or education.   In that situation, women will chose the better educated or taller man because woman tend to be maximizers.  It is a well-documented primal behavior.’

    This proves nothing. ANYONE (man or woman) faced with two choices and nothing else to differentiate between the two besides a better education or a better looking option or a taller option (for women) or a curvier or slimmer option (for men) would go for the person with the more attractive trait (or with the higher value in terms of just about anything). Put two women in front of a man with all the same attributes except that one is fat and the other is slimmer/curvy and he will choose the latter. My point? EVERY SINGLE person on the planet will be a maximizer in this case. It is ridiculous to think that women are the only sex who tries to find the best person to couple with. The fact that men are less discriminatory on who they sleep with does not mean they don’t try to maximize when it’s time to settle down.

     

     

    1. 12.1
      Yet Another Guy

      Height and weight are not interchangeable.  A woman who is thin and a woman who is fat are not remotely equal.   Being overweight is not attractive to most men and women, which why is the term BBW is an oxymoron.  I guarantee that if you made men chose between two equally attractive women whose only differences were height or education, the outcome would be totally different.  In that case, each man would make his selection based on his perceived competition for each of the woman.  The reason being that men tend to be satisficers whereas women tend to be maximizers.  Men are more often than not happy with good enough.  Women are almost always looking to maximize the outcome.  That is why there are sayings such as a man makes peace with his decision to marry the woman he chose to take as his bride.  That saying is rooted in the reality that men tend to be satisficers.

      1. 12.1.1
        Emily, the original

        YAG,

        That is why there are sayings such as a man makes peace with his decision to marry the woman he chose to take as his bride.

        I was just reading an interview with Diane Keaton and she said (despite having had relationships years ago with both Warren Beatty and Al Pacin0) that she didn’t ever marry because she didn’t want to marry the men she could have.

         

      2. 12.1.2
        Marika

        Do you honestly see yourself as a satisficer, YAG? The comments you’ve made on this blog would suggest not. I’m far more open to dating a range of people than you. In fact you’re constantly justifying your choice of (a very narrow) type. So you’re not the most credible commenter.

        Perhaps it’s time to spend some of your energy critiquing yourself and your choices, rather than focusing all your energy on how the women of the world ‘got it wrong.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          I was a satisficer, as in past tense.   I married a woman to whom I was weakly sexually attracted at best.  I did so because she had other qualities; however, I learned the hard way that sexual attraction is something on which a man should never compromise.  Now, I do not give a darn.  I want what I want, and I will not pine if I do not get it.  I do not crave a relationship.

          With that said, if I encounter two women to whom I am equally sexually attracted that are different heights and/or have different educational attainment levels, I will flip a coin. 🙂  Beyond being able to hold a conversation, educational attainment level means very little to me.  Height only factors into the equation when slow dancing and having missionary sex.

      3. 12.1.3
        Stacy

        @YAG

        Height makes no difference to men so that argument is mute. Men tend to be maximizers in terms of looks/sex appeal and women tend to be maximizers in terms of accomplishments (and even that has changed significantly since many women do just as well or better than men). Men become satisficers when they don’t have a choice (just like women do) but IF they have either the resources or the looks, they act just like George Clooney did before he finally got married in his old age.

        EVERYONE (especially if they are young enough, beautiful enough, successful enough), tends to try to get the best they can in the dating market. However, I guarantee you that you will find that women are willing to put up with loser men WAY MORE than the other way around. It is not unusual to see women deal with men who are physically and/or verbally abusive, cheaters, chronically unemployed or underemployed,etc. simply because she is in love. Men are the ones who are more prone to leave those situations. How many times do you see or hear of the women who put up with the cheater for years. Most men won’t stick around if cheated on once. This is why books like, ‘He’s not that Into You’ are so popular.  If women were maximizers, they would be leaving no good men in droves. Evan does so well because women tend to want to stay with the man they’re with regardless of if he’s good enough. To summarize, everyone tries to maximize according to their value in the market.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          What you have claimed is not supported by divorce data.  Women initiate divorce far more often than men, and most divorced men were not deadbeats or abusers when they were married.   Women usually reach the greener-grass stage in a marriage earlier than men.

           

  13. 13
    Stacy

    @YAG

    Let me reinforce something I said…’EVERYONE (especially if they are young enough, beautiful enough, successful enough), tends to try to get the best they can in the dating market. Men try to trade up in terms of looks ALL the time (or SOMETIMES they stop when they’re married although the cheating man is not unusual in those conditions. Even Evan, writer of this blog, said that he had to basically make an EFFORT to not cheat). Women try to trade up UNTIL they are in love.’

      1. 13.1.1
        Stacy

         
        @Evan
         
        In a previous entry of another topic you said,
         
        ‘I spend ZERO time looking to flirt with other women. I work from home. I have my wife and kids here all the time. I’m very happily married in a cocooned domestic bliss.
         
        b. I have plenty of desire to have sex with other people. I have just largely buried and ignored that desire for the sake of my marriage. It’s a pragmatic decision. Like being an alcoholic and avoiding bars, I don’t put myself in the position to flirt – not because I don’t desire other women, but because I do. In general, I avoid temptation. I don’t make new girl friends. I don’t get phone numbers. I usually play the role of dating coach with single women to avoid flirting with them. Also, occasionally I meet someone I’m very attracted to and I have enough experience to avoid spending too much time with them – specifically to not develop a crush. Hope that makes sense.’
         
        And in response to KK, you said,
         
        ‘They both involve temptation and a CONSCIOUS DECISION not to act on your basest impules for short-term pleasure. In fact, I think it’s quite an apt comparison. The fact that you don’t only underscores my original point – women and men, by and large, see things differently. Men, driven by testosterone, are driven for more variety and will sleep with anyone attractive. Women tend to want to LIKE a man before sleeping with him. The only cognitive dissonance going on here is yours. I’m presenting you with a clear picture of reality and your mind is boggled by it.’
         
         Now let’s define effort according to Webster.
         
        Conscious exertion of power
        Something produced by exertion or trying
         
        Sorry but I still stand by my original statement that it takes EFFORT for you and for most men based on what you said above. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong or bad but there is a different level of trying for men to be faithful as opposed to women. I try to have integrity with everything I write so if I misquoted you, feel free to let me know.
         

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          You used my words, so you didn’t misquote me. But as the writer of the above paragraphs, I don’t see it as “effort” any more than it’s “effort” to brush my teeth, shower and eat everyday. It’s just part of relationship maintenance, not a colossal sacrifice. If I were consistently around temptation, it MAY be an effort, but since I avoid that, it’s really no effort at all. It never occurs to me that anyone would make me happier than my own wife.

    1. 13.2
      Yet Another Guy

      Women reach the greener-grass stage faster in their marriages.  How do you explain that phenomenon? Men do not stay just because they have financial losses at stake.  I did not remain in a loveless marriage because I would have to pay child support or spousal support.  I remained in a loveless marriage because it has been proven time and time again that children do better when they have a mother and a father in the same home.   Girls are more likely to get pregnant if their father leaves when they are in their tweens/early teens.  That is why I waited until my girls were in high school to consider leaving.

      1. 13.2.1
        Marika

        Please, please stop dating, YAG. I have every reason in the world to think the worst of men due to my ex, but I know most men aren’t my ex and I don’t make them pay for his sins. Do the Tron Swanson thing, so the poor, curvy, girly girl, 47 year old women etc etc in your area who want relationships know to stay away. Innocent women don’t deserve your bitterness.

        And yes he stayed in the marriage, but was also cheating for at least a year whilst ‘married’! I think it can be the case that men ‘stay’ longer in marriages…on paper. They often withdraw emotionally, physically or otherwise or behave so badly until the woman feels so horrible about herself she feels no choice but has to leave. Many more women than men will drag along their partner to therapy trying to save the marriage. At some point though, if you’ve done all you can, it’s not a marriage if only one person is in it.

        I know that’s not always the case but I’ve experienced and seen it so many times that the maximiser in marriage thing doesn’t fly. At all.

        And you’ve said several times that women with lower educational levels shouldn’t feel they have a chance with you. So you do care about education. And looks, femininity, age, age of woman’s kids and on it goes. Maybe you married your ex because she optimised the younger woman you so desire and it was time for you to have kids. You married based on that (forgetting important things like character, kindness) and continue to date based on that. How about throwing the list out and finding someone who makes you happy?

      2. 13.2.2
        Stacy

        @YAG

        You said women initiating divorce most of the time signify that its women who have the grass is greener syndrome more than men.  Please show me statistics that prove that women divorce to trade up and not because of a significant reason?

        I divorced because he was cheating. My ex husband would have stayed married to me for the rest of his life if he had the opportunity even though he was cheating. Of the 7 divorced couples I know, FIVE were divorced because of the man’s infidelity, one women divorced because the man was abusive, and one divorced because she was cheating (her now ex refused to keep a job and she claimed this is what provoked her). How do YOU assume that most women divorce because they decide to trade up? And MOST women who divorce have custody of the kids so it is pretty hard to trade up when you have a bunch of teenagers or toddlers in the house – trust me on this.

        Because women are LESS likely to stay in a shitty marriage or because they are miserable does not prove that they are trying to trade up when they file for divorce. I didn’t even date for four years after mine.

  14. 14
    Stacy

    Oh, and one more thing…

    Men tend to stay in miserable marriages longer because divorce tends to cost men more than it costs women primarily because women tend to have primary custody of kids. The fact that women initiate divorces more proves nothing.

    1. 14.1
      ScottH

      I would have given my last penny and live in a shoebox to get out of my “marriage” but I stayed as long as I did in the best interests of my kids.  It might be debatable whether I ultimately did the right thing but my focus was on my kids, not the money.  I know you’re generalizing and I’m one data point, but still, money isn’t the only thing guys are concerned about.

      1. 14.1.1
        Marika

        You’re a good guy, ScottH, your comments bear that out. It’s clear you’ve self reflected and I have no doubt you did the best for your family. You also don’t come on here to bash women and tell us how so very wrong we are.

        What we (me and my sistas 😀) really struggle with is guys who are clearly blind to their own flaws harping on about how terrible women are – not just their ex, but womenkind in general – whole simultaneously being a walking male stereotype. We’ve all dated that guy and don’t wish him upon any other women, hoping he’ll instead opt out of the dating pool. That’s not you.

        1. Chance

          Hi Marika,

           

          What we (me and my sistas 😀) really struggle with is guys who are clearly blind to their own flaws harping on about how terrible women are – not just their ex, but womenkind in general – whole simultaneously being a walking male stereotype.” 

           

           

          In other words, the male Stacy2’s of the world.  Surely, you felt some cognitive dissonance whilst constructing your last two posts.  I don’t necessarily have a problem with your quote above, but I find it astounding that you could immediately switch to gushing over Stacy2 and lamenting her pending departure.

        2. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I find it astounding that you could immediately switch to gushing over Stacy2 and lamenting her pending departure.

          Chicks before Dicks, baby!   🙂

        3. ScottH

          Well thank you Marika and Emily.  I’ve had my moments here and IRL.

          Also, I’ve noticed that we all have blind spots about our flaws and issues.  It’s some kind of ego driven self preservation thing.  It became apparent when a friend of mine was laughing about the dumb thing I was repeating over and over again that was obvious to her but I was oblivious to .  And she was doing the same stupid thing that she couldn’t see but was obvious to me.  It’s so easy to see in others but so hard to see in ourselves.

        4. Emily, the original

          ScottH,

          It became apparent when a friend of mine was laughing about the dumb thing I was repeating over and over again that was obvious to her but I was oblivious to .

          I think a real friend will tell you the truth. Not lacerate you but point out (with love) some of the things you may need to work on. Have you ever had a friend tell you something that ticks you off when you first hear it, but months, maybe even years later, you suddenly remember it and realize the friend was right?!

      2. 14.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Marika and ScottH,

        You’re a good guy, ScottH, your comments bear that out. It’s clear you’ve self reflected and I have no doubt you did the best for your family. You also don’t come on here to bash women and tell us how so very wrong we are.

        Agreed. Kudos to your for your self-awareness and willingness to grow. It’s obvious you are a person with emotional intelligence.

      3. 14.1.3
        Stacy

        @ScottH

        Fair enough.

  15. 15
    Lyra

    Ugh.

    Dating in NYC made me huff and puff in agony. Ha. I often think if I were to move somewhere else, it would be better but…would it?? ^^:

    It is just so tiring having to start all over again and swipe through men on tinder and bumble….and I already have reinvented my standards in a more realistic way. But man, dating in this modern world is too taxing!

  16. 16
    Marika

    Chance 

    I’ve disagreed with Stacy2 on multiple occasions. I don’t agree with her stance on men at all. I think I’ve made that pretty clear. Lots of people have taken her to task, men and women, on multiple occasions.

    But at the end of the day this is a dating blog for women. Smart, strong successful women (of which she is clearly one). Not whinging men who hate women and only want sex. I can’t remember the last time YAG self reflected or showed any vulnerability. At least Stacy can do that. I will miss her. He contributes very little, we’ve heard everything he says multiple times (Buck, Tron, all the mgotws) and I don’t get why he’s here at all.

    1. 16.1
      Shaukat

      @Marika,

      I would respectfully challenge you to find one example where Stacy2 has showed genuine vulnerability. Her last post showed no such thing. She stated that the blog was confirming her suspicion that all men are ‘selfish jerk-offs’ and thus she would have to take a break to avoid becoming even more jaded.

      I’m with Chance on this point. I think I would agree with Stacy2 on several political issues, but not when it comes to dating and romance. The cognitive dissonance in her posts was astounding. On the one hand she would (rightly) denounce male posters like Tron for failing to understand that intrinsic human worth on its own does not entitle one to physical/romantic affection, and then on another post bitterly attack men for seeking specific benefits they derive from relationships instead of simply lauding her financial and professional accomplishments. She would attack men as superficial ‘broken creatures’ for being attracted to the laid back ‘cool girl,’ and then state that a lack of ambition and drive is a major turn-off. When she did make some astute points, she would end up contradicting them later.

      She’s smart and successful, but not sure she’s ‘strong.’

      1. 16.1.1
        Marika

        Let’s not turn this into Stacy2 bashing. This all arose because Chance thought I should have as much as of a problem with her as I do with YAG on this site. But I don’t. We’ve gone through this with Buck previously, but to go through it again:

        This is *supposed* to be a supportive community for a woman. YAG is neither a woman nor supportive of women. Quite the opposite. Stacy is a woman.

        Evan has made it clear that he would caution his (female) clients against dating someone like YAG.

        If YAG and his type want to brag about easily getting NSA sex with much younger women, there are sites for that. This aint one of them.

        I don’t go on mgtow sites and try to push my beliefs on them. As misguided as I think they are, I recognize they are entitled to a site where they can get support & advice. It’s no place for relationship oriented women. Much like this is no place for non relationship oriented men.

        1. Chance

          Hi Marika,

           

          “Let’s not turn this into Stacy2 bashing. This all arose because Chance thought I should have as much as of a problem with her as I do with YAG on this site.”

           

          That’s correct.  To be clear, I have no problem w/Stacy2 (or YAG),  but I believe it is hypocritical to have a problem with one and not the other.

           

          “This is *supposed* to be a supportive community for a woman. YAG is neither a woman nor supportive of women. Quite the opposite. Stacy is a woman.”

           

          Frankly, this sounds like a cop-out.  Also, I think a credible argument could be made that men who come here and say things that may be critical about the behavior of women, or groups of women, are more useful to the blog than Stacy2’s contributions.  Women should be striving to understand men, and at least these men provide some viewpoints from a male perspective.  Furthermore, I think it’s fair to say that Evan at least agrees with some of what men write here, and vice versa.  On the contrary, Stacy2 almost never agreed with what Evan wrote.  She also didn’t give any indication that she was willing to change her approach or beliefs.  So, she really had less of a reason to be here than even the men.  This is why I have a hard time buying your justification for why you aren’t as bothered by her as you are by YAG.  Just own it:  negative comments about men don’t bother you nearly as much as negative comments about women.

      2. 16.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Shaukat

        She’s smart and successful, but not sure she’s ‘strong.’

        I’m going to have to disagree that she wasn’t strong. While I agree with Stacy’s comment below that Stacy2’s delivery could have been less harsh, Stacy2 stuck to her guns on a lot of points, which is not any easy thing to do on this blog as there is no shortage of people eager to correct you.

        1. Jeremy

          Sometimes it takes greater  strength to accept correction than to stick to one’s guns, though…

          There are  two old sayings that I like: Who is strong? The one who overcomes his /her inclinations for the better.  Who is wealthy? The one who is satisfied with his / her lot in life.

        2. Luka

          ‘Smart, strong, successful’ women are the female ‘nice guys’

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Sometimes it takes greater  strength to accept correction than to stick to one’s guns, though…

          True, but sometimes the tone to correct got ugly. While you may have pointed out some different ideas to consider, your posts were always respectful in tone.

        4. Luka

          Evan,

          I read your article. I agree with everything in it.

          People are polarity responders – if a thesis doesn’t stand up, they infer the opposite.

          So, Nice Guy notices women don’t respond to ‘niceness’ – assumes women want jerks who abuse them. Incorrect.

          Strong, smart, successful woman notices men don’t respond to her job/status – assumes men want doormats and are intimated by her success. Incorrect.

          The truth – that people are just more complex and require and desire myriad qualities in a partner, seems a nicer conclusion than ‘half of the population is mentally defective’.

          Yet still.

          Many people would rather life unhappily than have their beliefs challenged. I think its your (and other dating gurus) role to get this message across in the gentlest way possible. its not easy though:)

           

           

        5. Jeremy

          Emily, true.  There is a third part to the quote I mentioned about who is strong and who is wealthy. Who is wise? The one who learn from every person.

           

          Disrespect is the antithesis of willingness to learn.

        6. Emily, the original

          Hi Jeremy,

          Disrespect is the antithesis of willingness to learn.

          I think our natural instinct is to match a snarky comment with another snarky comment (or an even snarkier one). I’ve been guilty of it myself, but a counter argument delivered with the tone of a bulldog is not particularly palatable.

          But you don’t do that. You write insightful, well-reasoned responses about concepts I’ve never heard of, so keep the comments coming!

    2. 16.2
      ScottH

      Not too long ago YAG gave up his sexy on standbys because of the urging of some of the women on here.  That shows vulnerability and self reflection, a lot of it.  I highly highly doubt that I would have done what he did if I was in his situation.  Maybe he was feeling somewhat guilty about and just needed a little push, I don’t know.  But I doubt I would have done that.

      I also thought that Stacy2 made some uncharacteristically good comments about men and people in the recent past.

      1. 16.2.1
        Emily, the original

        ScottH,

        Not too long ago YAG gave up his sexy on standbys because of the urging of some of the women on here. 

        Yes, that is true, and kudos to him for doing that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it was my understanding that he wasn’t having sex with these women. They’d stay the night … were they doing everything but intercourse? I’m asking because I was a bit confused about the nature of these relationships, other than it did seem he wasn’t honest about how little he wanted from them  ?

        1. ScottH

          I don’t remember exactly.  I thought he was having sex with them otherwise why would they be called sexy’s on standby?  I never heard that term before and I remember him distinguishing it from FWB.   Is he still around to answer?  What happened with Stacy2?  I can’t find any exchanges about it and everyone is talking about it.  And something weird is going on with replies because I am not getting notification of replies to my messages when I should be.  And the link to the Safe Online Dating blog doesn’t work.

        2. Emily, the original

          ScottH,

          This was How to Write the Perfect Profile:

          One last thing, guys are notorious for having at least one “sexy on standby.”  Truth be told, I currently have two women who fall into this classification (although, I do not have sex with either women because I do not want to open up the attachment can of worms). Unless you enjoy getting your heart broken, you want to avoid becoming a sexy on standby.  A sexy on standby is the woman a man calls at the last minute when his date with another woman does not pan out, often for a booty call after dropping off his date.  He knows that you are seriously into him, and that you will drop what you are doing and run to him. If you want a real relationship, you want to be his prima donna (“first lady” in Italian) or nothing at all. … as to why men maintain sexy-on-standby (SOS) relationships. It was definitely for low-effort, last minute sex when I was younger. Today, it is more to have someone with whom to do things when the date that I planned falls through at the last minute or a meeting with a new woman falls short early in the evening.  … I actually tried to get rid of both of my current sexies-on-standby, but they would not take “no” for an answer. These ladies date other guys; however, both would cancel a date at the last minute if I called. It is kind of sad because I know that both of these women would make fantastic girlfriends. I just cannot make myself feel something that does not exist. I need to cut one loose because she is pressuring me to commit.

  17. 17
    Stacy

    To the blog,

    I saw a discussion about Stacy2 and frankly, I liked her.  While she didn’t think like me (well, at least most times), I enjoyed the diversity of opinions she brought even if I did not agree with all of it.  I also learned a lot from her even if she was sometimes harsh in her delivery. I feel a bit disappointed when people are ran off from here simply because others think they don’t contribute. Who are you to say what another contributes (well, besides Evan because this is his blog)?  I always considered these places to be a forum for discussion and debate. So what if she thinks most men are a certain way?  It would be a pretty boring world if we all agreed on things.  I come back here because I learn and yes, because of the heated debates we get into sometimes.  This is just a reflection of real life after all.  And why on earth does this have to be a place ONLY for relationship minded people? Yes, it’s primarily a  blog about successful women who want relationships but I love to hear the happy side AND the ugly side of things.  I like to hear the views from people who are also a bit soured by the experience because it reminds me of what I need to be aware of and it makes me aware of the views some men (and other women) have in the real world. So now this blog is just going to be a bunch of people who only agrees with Evan’s views? I mean, c’mon.

    1. 17.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Hi. Evan here. Like Trump, when I see my name in comments, it gives me a little dopamine jolt and makes me want to respond.

      I hear what you’re saying, Stacy. From your perspective, it makes all the sense in the world. What you haven’t considered as greatly is MY perspective. I write here twice a week for ten years, giving away free advice, putting every ounce of myself into being thoughtful, transparent, honest, and balanced. For that privilege, I get attacked by women on one side and men on the other side. You don’t know what that’s like. I’m tough enough to take it. If someone decides to go on their own blog and write nasty things – and they have – there’s not much I can do about it.

      But this is my office, my workplace, my house. And the angry, negative men and women who exist to do nothing but tear me down or tear down the opposite sex…well, they may provide entertainment, but they don’t provide anything of VALUE for my clients – unless it’s what to AVOID. Furthermore, it becomes a time and energy suck for me – to have to defend my words they’ve so ably twisted on my own blog. I don’t think they’re “bad” people, but I do think they’re largely toxic – part of the problem, and not the solution if you will.

      So here’s the question: whose site do you think this is? If it’s yours, I have no right to police the comments at all (and you don’t even KNOW what I delete). If it’s mine, I have the right to do with it what I want. Somehow, I still believe that the site that’s called Evan Marc Katz, with my writings, products, and coaching all over it, where I spend 9 hours every day, is still my own, as opposed to being something in the public domain, like Reddit. In other words, I can throw a mean party, but everyone here is a guest in my house. And if a guest is not being respectful to the host or to the other guests – repeatedly – he or she may be asked to leave. Does that mean the party is a little less crazy? Sure. But it’s a lot more civilized. And like my “easy” marriage, my values tend towards intelligent, respectful differences of opinion, rather than a series of straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks born from a skewed worldview and a lack of romantic success.

      If anybody doesn’t like it, that’s your prerogative. The internet is a big place. I don’t need my valuable time sucked up explaining myself or fending off attacks from strangers who don’t like me or pay my bills.

    2. 17.2
      Shaukat

      Stacy, I agree with you on this. This blog stands out because it attracts a wide variety of opinions and perspectives which lead to vociferous debate on many issues. I would never personally request that any poster be banned. I realise this is an off-shoot of a business and the host has every right to terminate discussions or ban posters who detract from the overall message of the site, but one thing that I find annoying is when specific commenters complain that their ‘safe space’is being encroached on because a debate is getting too heated. If it’s that upsetting take a break from cyberspace and go for a walk or something.

      1. 17.2.1
        Marika

        And maybe while some of us are taking that well needed break, others of us can self-reflect on whether we’re providing anything of value to the target demographic, or just trotting out self aggrandising chauvinist nastiness designed to taunt women (over 30).

        Okay, I’ll shut up now. Can’t win ’em all!

  18. 18
    Marika

    I own it, Chance. The fact that guys like YAG exist in the dating pool, with sinister intent, but in respectable outer packaging, scares the hell out of me.

    1. 18.1
      Sum Guy

      Marika,

      Wouldn’t you rather get insight into to how guys like YAG think to better avoid them?

      As a guy who can agree in small part with YAGS view, that just getting a date (and just getting laid if that was my goal) does not seem to be hard at all at 50, when you are in shape, successful, intelligent/highly educated, and fun, I don’t agree with his approach (if true) or grander generalizations that border on sexists drivel.

      I comment here to contrast and add a perspective of a guy that seems to be what many of Mark’s clients want (in broad demographic terms), and what in my experience causes someone like me to back away, or question and what someone like me does in contrast to the love ’em and leave ’em approach.   All to provide insight into at least one mind of the kind of men Mark’s client seem to want.

      I first came here out of curiosity on certain topics and to get a better idea of where women in my preferred demographic (45-55, with brains and beauty) are coming from, when first reentering the dating scene.

      1. 18.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Sum Guy,

        As a guy who can agree in small part with YAGS view, that just getting a date (and just getting laid if that was my goal) does not seem to be hard at all at 50, when you are in shape, successful, intelligent/highly educated, and fun

        I don’t think it’s that hard to get a date, whether you have those qualities or not. On another blog that I read, a man wrote in that his qualifications for a date are that she meet his “attractiveness threshold” (I would describe that as “cute”), seems nice and is making it clear she is interested.

      2. 18.1.2
        Marika

        Thanks Sum Guy, but my point with talking about the dominant voices in society was that, no, we don’t, YAGs are everywhere. We know what they want and how they judge and treat women. We’ve been exposed to that kind of thinking since birth.

        He started out early on with questions about his own life etc then descended into critiquing women’s skin, bodies after childbirth, how hypergamous we are, even in marriage, how women his own age are all grandmothers with nothing to offer him, how easy it is for him to get sex, how he invades womens’ privacy, and on it goes.

        If you’re here to provide any useful perspective or information, great. If you’re just a chauvinist male caricature who doesn’t want to understand women or dating, I think it’s really important to self reflect on why you’re here.

  19. 19
    Shaukat

    Now put yourself in a guy’s shoes. Stacy2 pretty much stated that her in dating was to find a man who would give her a baby, at which point she would show her true colors.

  20. 20
    Marika

    True. She’s gone though now, right? Despite what the mgotws say, it’s still very much a patriarchal society & YAGs get airplay everywhere (just look at the White House). I know it won’t happen & freedom of speech etc, etc, but it would be just lovely if superficial men who don’t respect women & don’t want to learn or change, didn’t get airplay here on a woman’s dating site. That’s my dream.

    1. 20.1
      Chance

      Ah, yes…. that nebulous patriarchy.  Sociology’s abominable snowman.  Always serves as an effective bulwark against the exhaustion of legitimate arguments.  At any rate, I do respect you for coming around to admitting that you wish YAG would disappear just because you don’t like what he says.

      1. 20.1.1
        Marika

        It’s not just about not liking it, but hearing it relentlessly and not feeling it contributes in anyway meaningfully. Knowing dominant men prefer younger, highly sexual women who never age is hardly groundbreaking. And what are we supposed to do with that information?

        I appreciate many of the male commenters & have learned a lot from them. This is not about silencing people who disagree, it’s about challenging them as to their motivations for being here. I don’t agree with Stacy2 on most things, but she has made me self reflect a few times, or see things from another perspective. Or at least provided some comic relief. Plus I understand her frustrations at times, as poorly as they’ve been worded.

        We can stop discussing patriarchies as soon as y’all elect a female leader😂

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          I appreciate many of the male commenters & have learned a lot from them. This is not about silencing people who disagree, it’s about challenging them as to their motivations for being here.

          I agree, as I have no doubt some of the male commenters are trolling and simply take the opposite stance on issues so they can revel in watching the female commenters getting angry. That says more about them than it does about a male perspective and doesn’t contribute anything.

        2. Selena

          Marika: “…hearing it relentlessly and not feeling it contributes in anyway meaningfully. Knowing dominant men prefer younger, highly sexual women who never age is hardly groundbreaking. And what are we supposed to do with that information?”

           

          Yes.

          Why does a man who doesn’t want a serious relationship, doesn’t even want to date women in his own decade , feel compelled to repeat such information over, and over and over………every day on a blog he knows is populated primarily with women who want a serious relationship with men in their own decade?  What is the point of doing that?

          His daily compulsion is bizarre. Why would a man nearing 60 who has p*ssy galore -spend some much time here?

        3. Chance

          “We can stop discussing patriarchies as soon as y’all elect a female leader”

           

          …aaaaaaand now we’ve transitioned to a time-honored tradition for Aussies:  freely opining on the American way to any American within earshot.  Just know that arguably the most unpopular woman in our country won the popular vote… that’s hardly evidence of a “patriarchy”.

      2. 20.1.2
        Henriette

        @Chance….. and, that countries (Brazil, Canada, India, Pakistan, Taiwan etc) who’ve had a female ~ any female ~ head of state are automatically less sexist than the USA.  *eye roll*

        1. Marika

          It seems I’ve touched a nerve..! You know that’s what us Aussie’s are here for, right, to remind you guys to laugh at yourselves occasionally 😀

          In all seriousness, though, Chance, as someone who often one asks people to concede  points…maybe the fact that you and most countries have only ever had male leaders or one female one (or in your case an almost one) could be slight evidence of a patriarchal society.

  21. 21
    Shaukat

    @Marika,

    I disagree with your position on free speech, but your point about who occupies dominant spaces is actually well-taken.

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