This is Where Elite Women Go to Find Elite Men

There have never been more ways to meet people – online dating sites, dating apps, social media, Meetups, and the old standards of school, work, church, bars, and parties.

Yet it’s never felt harder to meet someone you want to marry.

At least that’s what I hear from the smart, strong, successful women who make up my client base. They’re not exaggerating. There are 1/3 fewer college educated men compared to college educated women these days. And if you are snobby about your partner having a similar caliber education – as I was, once upon a time – it is increasingly hard to find other people from elite schools out in the “real world.”

Enter “elite dating apps.”

From the low end (Tinder Select) to the high end (Raya, for celebrities in the “creative industries”), lots of people want to be in an exclusive club. It makes sense. It’s just really hard to pull off effectively.

As a consultant for the online dating industry, creating something both popular and exclusive is sort of the holy grail – one that no one has ever achieved.

There have never been more ways to meet people – yet it’s never felt harder to meet someone you want to marry.

A big, mainstream dating site like Match, OkCupid or PlentyOfFish will have millions of profiles, no exclusivity and low costs.

An expensive matchmaker will cost $20-$60K for 10 dates, but their pool of people will be incredibly small.

Cheaper matchmakers (read: most of them) usually won’t be as “exclusive.”

So what is a smart, strong, successful woman with a six-figure-income, Ivy League degree, and a ticking clock to do?

My best guess is to hire a dating coach, but then, I might be a little bit biased.

Your thoughts, on elite dating sites and the like, are greatly appreciated.

 

Join our conversation (181 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 1
    Alex

    I think “elite” sites are pretty dumb. It’s just another way for people to act like a snob

    I love the idea of a matchmaker. I wish they were more popular and cheaper. It would be so great to outsource the hard parts of getting a date. Plus sometimes other people have a better understanding of what you need than you do yourself.

    Most of the time I feel like all I’m doing is throwing crap at the wall, hoping something sticks :/

  2. 2
    Jessie

    Evan, why don’t you create a new dating website that eliminates the issues you have seen with the existing sites? You seem to have a lot of great information for women, that are available through your various programs and books. You worked for J Date, and have back end experience with how a dating site is run at a corporate level. I think you could also come up with a website that offers something new and better for your clients! I’ve read your books, and would consider signing up! It would be a way for some of the women who can’t afford your more expensive services to get more out of your coaching, and give them a new way to find men. And, you could choose the standards for the men who sign up as well!

    1. 2.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Thought about it. It’s just not good business. Too much tech and capital required. Too much competition from established sites. Instead, I help individuals (and dating sites) improve their user experience. It’s not perfect, but it’s the best I can do.

  3. 3
    Malika

    There is one in my country called the inner circle. I wouldn’t say it was horrendously elite (i think i’d get through the screening) but i would rather not date people who take great pains to only be surrounded by their narrow socioeconomic group. We can’t help ending up in a bubble in society but i try to make it as thin a bubble as possible.

  4. 4
    JB

    Being that most of us on here have never been on an “Elite” dating site/app because, (and I’m just guessing here) we’re not “elite” enough. I can’t put a “recon” profile on one to check them out and give an honest opinion like I do on every other site. This thread is going to be quite interesting. Obviously the owners of any said site/app decide who gets in and why. Women I’m sure have to be physically attractive even more so (if at all) than smart, strong, successful that is Evans slogan/client base. Obviously there are many smart, strong, successful women that are unattractive and have little value to “elite” men. So they would be disqualified. Men I’m sure will be judged mainly but not exclusively on their job title/income/net worth as well as their looks because of course that’s what makes them “elite”. I think the basic idea of a few these site/apps isn’t inherently bad but just know that they are what they are and someone will be profiting from it. In other words they’ll be no free “elite” site/apps. Many of these sites have a waiting list to get on unless of course you’re extremely attractive or for men extremely rich AND attractive.

  5. 5
    Gala

    This isn’t a bad idea but I am yet to see it executed successfully. I was invited to one of the “elite” apps mentioned in the article, went to their launch party in LA, tinkered with the app. It didn’t really do much for me, perhaps because it skewed very heavily towards “creatives” and this is simply not my type. I prefer people who are good with numbers. But yes, the all-access concept of OLD is its downfall, in my opinion. We all move in our own social circles, and we have all sorts of ways of sorting and segregation, which all exist because – shocker ! – people don’t want to mingle with who they consider undesirables. Traditional OLD does not provide any such “barriers to access” and this is why it is so frustrating. I feel that in the past these “elite” dating sites failed to take off because there was little incentive for “elite men” to join. I think women are more concerned with not crossing class lines, or only crossing them upwards.. But given Tinder’s already huge popularity, where they pick “the best” from an already large pool, rather than trying to attract new people, may be they will really be able to pull it off. Kinda makes me want to go back on Tinder to see if I can get in and check it out.

     

  6. 6
    lbwolpert

    Sorry, but someone who bills themselves as “elite” already has a red flag, in my opinion.   I went on a date once with a guy who was couldn’t stop talking about his bank account and how he would order people around.  He also made sure to show me his fancy car.  It was totally overkill and completely unattractive.

    People who are truly “elite” are humble, hardworking, and attractive without drawing attention to it every 5 seconds.   They might be very successful already or just working on improving their life.  Either way, they don’t spend a whole lot of time obsessing over their social status.

    1. 6.1
      Sylvana

      Wonderfully stated

  7. 7
    Gala

    Btw, i could never understand why Match and other big OLD platforms couldn’t fix this problem with one simple move: only the people who match ALL of your criteria (income, location, status etc.) can see your profile or contact you. This one change would have made OLD experience instantly so much more appealing from a woman’s perspective. Unless, of course, their business model relies on charging guys for the illusion that they may have a shot with these ladies who would never in a million years respond to them…

    1. 7.1
      JB

      Because if they did that they wouldn’t make as much money and the stock price would plummet. (Yes it closed at $23.84 today I bought it at $13.00) They make big profits on charging guys and yes women for the illusion. You think they tell men that more than 80% of them (or some insane number close to it) will never get a response or meet anyone? The funny thing is as you say if someone had to match ALL most women’s statistical criteria and that of course takes the all important “looks/style” out of the equation they’d barely get any responses because very few would get through….lol. Some sites do it slightly like POF lets you select only certain age etc… Start a site with those rules and see how many people (men) sign up.

      1. 7.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Isn’t there a dating site that is set up so that only women can initially contact the men? I wonder if there are few men who sign up for it because they would have not have control of the initial process   ??

        1. Gala

          It’s a tinder-like app that’s called Bumble. And it suffers from all the ills of swiping apps. Though younger  people in my office swear by it.

        2. JB

          Sure there is, have you heard of it? No, and no one else will either.

          It’s called Bimble, Bumble, Fumble or some other garbage and no one is on it but lonely women.

        3. Emily, the original

          JB,

          It’s called Bimble, Bumble, Fumble or some other garbage and no one is on it but lonely women.

          That’s NOT what Gala wrote. Younger people in her office like the app. The topic of this post is about elite dating. My aunt paid for a very expensive matchmaking service that advertised they were elite. There weren’t enough men and at least one she was matched with was not financially stable, a concern of hers because she is wealthy. I was wondering if there weren’t enough men on a woman-initiated dating site.

        4. Gala

          @JB:

          Bumble is very popular. If you haven’t heard of it, you’ve been living under a rock or you are over the age of 45. Every junior guy in my office is on bumble and they discuss their “bumble dates” every day… (though i think they are on Tinder too, kinda like you’d have both Uber and Lyft on your phone). And those are the guys who women would love to meet. Good looking and very gainfully employed. I personally tried bumble and found the quality of men higher vs. Tinder but the process every bit as tedious. Delete. But that’s just me, i don’t  have the time or patience for endless “hey how is your day going” that go nowhere.

      2. 7.1.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @JB

        I am curious about the 80% figure.  We keep hearing that 80% of the men on dating sites receive no love, but I have a difficult time believing it.  I was able to secure dates with accomplished, attractive women when I was separated, and being separated on a dating site is akin to having the relationship equivalent of leprosy.  If 80% of the male dating pool is going untapped, it would make more sense to date a man who is not legally attached to another woman.

         

        1. JB

          @Gala

          I was being facetious. I know people have heard of Bumble and I haven’t been living under a rock. I’m aware of most every website/app. Of course now there’s hundreds of em and they come and go every day. I know the kids love all these dating apps. It’s just a game to most of the guys. I work with many 20 somethings that talk about their hook ups like it’s a sport. These apps AREN’T “Elite”. Which is our topic here.

          @YAG

          I was exagerating with the 80% but it’s still a large number of men that have little or no luck that pay for Match and the 15 sites that Match owns. I’m sure they’ll get into the “Elite” market when there’s one profitable enough to buy.

          I’ve been doing this 20 years and like you have gotten hundreds of dates and had a couple of serious realtionships. We’re the lucky ones. Have ever seen most men’s profiles?….LOL They aren’t even close to “Elite”.

      3. 7.1.3
        JB

        @Gala

        1 more thing I just thought about. If I had a dollar for every woman in the last 20 years I met and hit it off with that I DIDN’T match ALL of her criteria. I’d be a rich man. What women say they want in their profile is a far cry from they become very flexible on when they see a nice pic or someone walks in an inch shorter/year or 2 older but looks better than their pics. Like most men online I rarely care what a womans criteria is unless they’re thumping the Bible etc….lol

        1. Nissa

          That’s why my criteria is pretty short and sweet – confident, compassionate, has conflict skills (can have an argument without yelling, throwing things or being tuned out), has a daily spiritual practice of SOME kind (if HE considers it a practice – for example, being a person of integrity or honesty – I would accept that as a spiritual practice even if he considered himself an atheist), and self aware (meaning he has a firm handle on what he wants for himself and his life, separate from his special someone, and what things are dealbreakers for him). I also have preference for height and income (more than me, please) but those are preference, not dealbreakers. As criteria go, most of the population meet them, as I’m 5’8″, and make less than 80% of my state. I also feel these are warranted as I’ve not done it previously, and had issues because of it, so it’s not based on elitism, it’s based on personal past experience.

        2. Alex

          @JB

          i have to agree with you on this one. Not just for women, but for men too. No one can really tell how you’re going to hit it off until you meet. I find that all the preferences on dating site are pretty superficial when it comes down to it, aside from maybe whether or not they have kids.

          My one exception would be age. I use Hinge, and at one point I didn’t have an age requirement by accident. I never got so many messages in my life, but 90% were from either 20 year olds or men older than my parents. It was very hard to sort through that. I would like a site that takes into account your age preferences but occasionally will show someone a little outside them. For instance, my highest age is 35, but I wouldn’t say no if someone was 38 and was a great match for me. The trouble is simply that most 38 year olds are kind of outside my cultural frame of reference. So for now, I just change around age ranges and hope I get someone great eventually.

        3. Gala

          This is true for sure, but some criterias are in fact deal-breakers. Match could allow 3-4 “deal-breaking” criteria that would prevent contact, with the rest not having any impact. My guess is for most women it would be location, age and income, this would eliminate 80% of frivolous emails. And, they could charge a guy extra if he wanted to “override” it. Like, you don’t meet this woman’s criteria for age so you can’t email her, unless you pay us $20. Could be interesting 🙂

        4. Emily, the original

          Gala,

          Like, you don’t meet this woman’s criteria for age so you can’t email her, unless you pay us $20. Could be interesting 🙂

          You’d have men’s groups outside of Match.com’s offices protesting.   🙂

        5. JB

          Don’t give em any new ideas Gala…LOL  🙂 although it would make the stock price go up. I personally wouldn’t pay that much extra for that but last year I did pay extra on Match so that women that were not members could email me back. It was very cheap but the problem with that is I never knew if the women that were emailing me were the non member ones taking advantage of my “generosity”….lol and no I never asked. Not that big of a deal really. On Match if you don’t pay there’s very little you can do except wink and window shop so what’s the point of putting up a profile.

        6. Chris

          Unfortunately Gala I suspect height would also be considered a deal breaker by many women.

          An issue with “elite” dating services I could see is that some women would have these requirements – height, income, job type, body type, age – which as Evan has shown would exclude almost all the male population. On conventional dating services enough men will ignore these criteria so they still get plenty of hits. On elite dating sites where they are enforced those women will be forced to acknowledge how unrealistic their criteria are, which could result in disappointment.

        7. Emily, the original

          Why is age an unrealistic standard?

        8. Chris

          “Why is age an unrealistic standard?”
          Its not, by itself. But if they have multiple other criteria and on top of that also demand he be no more than a couple years older, that’s where it might be a problem.

           

        9. Emily, the original

          Chris,

          But if they have multiple other criteria and on top of that also demand he be no more than a couple years older, that’s where it might be a problem.

          Gotcha. I’ve never understood the height criteria some women have.

        10. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          I’ve never understood the height criteria some women have.

          It is my belief that height is used as a proxy for physical size.  Height by itself does not mean anything if a guy is built like a beanpole.  I am just under 6’0″; however, if you put me up against a guy who is 6’0″ on the money with a medium build, I would appear to be physically larger due to having a larger/broader build for my height.  Being a truly larger built mesomorph confers advantage to a man in society (mesomorphs are men and women who have athletic builds and put on muscle easily).  Women feel safe in your presence and other men do not mess with you, even men who are significantly taller.

          With that said, height is a huge limiting factor when dating.  Fifty-percent of male population in the United States is over 5’7″ and under than 5’11” even.  Twenty-five percent of the male population is under 5’7″ and the remaining twenty-five percent is over 5’11”. Approximately seventy percent of the female profiles that I have viewed on Match have at least 5’10” set as the base height for a man.  That is an inch taller than the average man in the United States as well as the 65th percentile for height.

          Height and educational attainment level are multiplicative because educational attainment is distributed throughout the entire male population.  My height, 5’11.5″, is the 80th percentile for height, which translates to one in five men are at least 5’11.5″.  I also hold a graduate degree, one in ten men. The percentage of men who meet both requirements is 20 * 0.1  = 2% of the male population.  Fifty-percent of the men in this pool are married, reducing its size to 1% of the male population.  If eighty percent of the male population is considered to be of less than average attractiveness, a women is looking a pool that contains 0.2% of the male population before race, religion, income or any other attributes are applied.  There is a higher probability of a woman being struck by a moving freight train than finding love in this pool.

          The reason why I know these figures is because I needed to put rhyme to reason when it came to dating as a separated man. While online dating may be difficult for completely unattached men, it is absolutely brutal for most separated men.  Yet, I was able to date a large number of women during the twelve months of separation that are required for no-fault divorce my state.  In the end, it came down to the fact that women are just as susceptible to biology as men.  Given a large pool of men, it appears that the average woman will choose a man who meets her primal need for safety (height/size) while simultaneously meeting her primal need for a man with an equal or higher ranking within a social hierarchy (usually educational attainment level and profession).   We can debate the value of basing mate selection on primal needs.  Men who are not taller than average and women who are not busty with an hourglass shape can be frustrated about it, but biology has a huge say in the process.  Experience is the only thing that tempers biological drive. Like touching a hot iron or stove, we learn to not let biology drive the mate selection process if we get burned badly enough.

        11. Gala

          @YAG re Height:

          your thinking would have been correct if height and income/intelligence were independent variables but studies don’t bear that out. In fact studies performed fairly recently, in 2000-s found that taller people make more money and are smarter. I believe height is actually the only thing that correlated so strongly with income, no other thing did…

          http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/

           

        12. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Men who are not taller than average and women who are not busty with an hourglass shape can be frustrated about it, but biology has a huge say in the process.  

          You always talk about the hourglass shape and while science may have their theories and you may personally like it, I don’t see a lot of proof of it in real life. Granted, my sample is small, but at my last job, I worked with a lot of guys. I can only think of one who specifically said he was a boob man. And he didn’t care if the boobs were attached to a woman who had a bit of weight other places. He wasn’t looking for the hourglass. A couple were ass man. Several had no preference. And while there was a general consensus as to what women we worked with who were considered attractive, each man had his individual preferences. One of them thought Madonna was super hot, and she has a very athletic body. I was also surprised by how most of them, if given the preference, would pick Jennifer Aniston over Angelina Jolie for a sexual rendezvous. To me, there is no contest. Jolie, at least as far as her old persona goes, would give a man the time of his life. He’d be begging for mercy! But I think she scared a of them.   🙂

        13. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          Did you notice that I did not factor income into my calculations?  I factored educational attainment level into the equation.  The cold hard truth is that educational attainment level matters.  A man with a graduate degree (post-graduate degree for our friends across the pond) is seen as more attractive than a man with an undergraduate degree, income withstanding.  I am living proof of that reality.  I have zero problem getting dates with women who are up to 15 years my junior on online dating sites, and I attribute my success to being a graduate degree holder (that and the fact that I am muscular with a full head of non-gray, non-colored hair 🙂 ).  Women tend to want a man with equal or more education.  Women tell me all of the time how difficult it is to meet an attractive, taller than average man who holds a graduate degree.  In my humble opinion, taller than average + advanced degree + reasonably attractive is the winning ticket for a man on online dating sites.  Income is only important if it is associated educational attainment level.   A lot of educated women will not date a very successful general contractor who only holds a high school diploma.

        14. Chris

          @YAG

          It does seem that level of educational attainment has become a proxy for social class. We see the ancient historical patterns of “hypergamy” reassert themselves (hypergamy in the purest sense of the word that, not however the manosphere has distorted it). A woman will simply find it very uncomfortable marrying a man from a lower social class. A man though will happily marry a woman from a lower social class, if she’s attractive and pleasant.

  8. 8
    Clare

    I am not a fan of elite apps or dating sites, because I don’t trust other people (either the creators of the app/site or the people who sign up) to know the kind of people who might be right for me. Every single person who has ever commented on what they think “my type” is has been off. No one knows you better than you, and having access to a wider pool of people allows you to make your choice more effectively.

     

    That said, apps or sites that paint with toooo broad a brush – that is, they allow anyone to contact anyone – are a waste of time. You spend a significant amount of time just wading through unwanted messages and feeling frustrated, which sucks your enthusiasm.

     

    I think you need to try and go for a middle ground – an app or site which is popular enough that it gives you access to a large pool of people from your target group, but which has a filtering system for messages. There should be a certain level of consent about who you receive messages from – for instance, people who fall outside your target age range shouldn’t be able to contact you. I think Tinder strikes quite a nice balance, if you are extreeemely discerning about who you swipe right on. Tinder often gets accused of being superficial because it is mostly based on looks, but I disagree – I think there is a lot of information about a person in his or her photos, if you care to look more closely. Anyone who sticks their tongue out or pulls kissy faces gets a left swipe from me – I don’t care how good looking they are. Someone with more than one photo of them holding a drink gets a left swipe. Photos of themselves surrounded by women or more than one photo with the same woman get a left swipe. Too many photos of his abs or his car – left swipe.  If the photos are genuine and natural from the facial expressions, it indicates that he’s not afraid to put his real self out there – right swipe. Sure there are obvious ways a guy tries to come across as warm and lovable and relationship-oriented – such as lots of photos with his dogs or his mom. But you can usually tell if it’s genuine if you look at the complete picture he is presenting. Someone with little to no bio information and only pictures of how hot he is usually means either interested in hooking up, or not very interesting as a person. And so on.

     

    Some may question my system of filtering, but honestly I have managed to avoid being sent even one dick pic and few if any negative messages with this method!

  9. 9
    MilkyMae

    In my experience, the biggest challenge for professional women(and men) is avoiding people without gainful employment.  I’ve met and know way too many adult single men who don’t even make enough to support themselves.  They are everywhere. I have a friend who works in an auto dealership he is amazed at how many men have 6+ year subprime auto loans.  I have another friend who just called off her marriage because her 40 yo “in real estate” professional man was a poser.  He had a pretend job and he steals money from his mother. No health insurance and no savings or 401k but he still drove a lexus.  If a man can’t easily explain what he does for a living he doesn’t make a living.

  10. 10
    Helene

    During my online dating days I tried all sorts of sites, including some which might be considered more selective/exclusive/highbrow by virtue of the fact they were branded as spin offs from  high end newspapers. By far the biggest problem with these sites was a lack of sufficinet numbers of men signed up in my part of the country.

    I also looked at the idea of a matchmaker but again, the number of quality  men who sign up for such things is very small. Also, the men got to join free or for a much reduced price, just as women get to join sex/hook-up sites for free. Men seek sex first, women seek love first…

    In fact, based on the idea that there are large numbers of men there, I even tried out the rather wacky idea of signing up for a sex site as a way of locating eligible men. Yes, i know a lot of these guys are not looking for a relationship but I figured, if a guy on a sex site met the woman of his dreams, he might just change his mind about not wanting a relationship….

    Anyway, this did not result in me meeting my eventual husband, but i did meet a lot of very pleasant, normal men…also had a lot of sex…!!!

     

  11. 11
    Sum Guy

    Thought of the elite apps (can meet the criteria for many it seems) but from my point of view (the non-religious based ones, but not looking for that) is these sites select for gold diggers and women whole buy whole hog into the mainstream materialistic culture (so, so not me).

    I once thought they could be good to find a highly educated, successful woman…but not really.

     

    I find the ones like Match and e-harmony where you have to pay a bit more than a pittance work pretty well.

  12. 12
    Gala

    I think that by far the best way to meet men when you approach mid-30-ies and kinda want to be done with this dog and pony show that is modern dating, is to be introduced by friends and family. My novel approach – everybody who expresses concern about my single status is asked to contribute in a tangible way, by introducing me to someone eligible. And they do. I am probably gonna settle down with one of the gents I was set up with. While there’s definitely no crazy off the charts chemistry, there is significant compatibility in values and our background is very similar. I can see how this can work. While sometimes i do long for more, for that experience of being in love that I had before, at this point in my life I am tired of chasing it. After all, it didn’t work out in the past, so not all that it cranked out to be. The arranged marriage is the way to go.

    1. 12.1
      Malika

      Am really glad this has worked out for you. From the men you met via your friends, apart from your current beau, how many were your type? I ask this because my friends are nine times out of ten woefully off base when try to set me up with someone. Even the crazy world of online dating has somehow coupled me up with better matches than my friends.

      1. 12.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Malika,

         I ask this because my friends are nine times out of ten woefully off base when try to set me up with someone.

        Yeah, mine, too. Their choices were so off-base, I wanted to ask them: Have you met me? Meeting someone through friends only worked out once for me. Two male co-workers (who I did not know well) invited a colleague from another work place to a lunch we had. I did not even know I was being set up, but it worked.

        1. Malika

          Friend:’He’s got issues, like, really big ones, but he is SO your type’ (the result was a man who just looked at me as if i was a practical joke that had been foisted on him)

          Another friend: ‘Malika! He’s single! You have to meet him’ (The result was a date wherein we found that that was the only thing we had in common)

          Your colleagues maybe had a bit more distance, that they could see who would possibly match with you, rather than well-meaning friends who want you to be interested in a certain type of guy. The latter is my personal theory why i prefer to not be set up by them.

           

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Malika,
          Another friend: ‘Malika! He’s single! You have to meet him’ (The result was a date wherein we found that that was the only thing we had in common)
          Yeah, I’ve experienced that, too. As if that is the one factor that should make you interested: He’s available! I’ve had friends get mad when I wasn’t interested in the guy. I’ve also had guy friends with whom I had a platonic relationship get irritated when I turned guys down they didn’t even know or weren’t friends with. I asked my one guy friend how to turn a guy down (the guy had texted me) and my guy friend was almost hostile about it. That was strange. (And I don’t think my guy friend was interested in me, so that wasn’t a factor.)
          Your colleagues maybe had a bit more distance, that they could see who would possibly match with you,
          Actually, I think they knew what their friend liked. They had no idea what I liked but, in that situation, they hit it out of the park.

      2. 12.1.2
        Gala

        Malika: actually their picks have been pretty spot on as far as the type I am looking for. The worst picks oddly were from my parents, but my friends I guess know me well.

  13. 13
    JB

    This just a question to anyone that’s been on an Elite site/App. How are the profiles as far as how they’re written etc…. the amount of effort as well as info about the person? The only reason I’m asking is because, (and I’ve mentioned it in other threads) at this point roughly about 90% of all new women that come on Match or POF which are the only sites I look at the most of the time have less than 2 sentences in their “about me and what I’m looking for” section or whole profile for that matter. I know this is because they’re creating their profile on their phone. Is that how it is on these Elite sites/apps these days as well? Has Tinder and other apps ruined this THAT much? As a guy what exactly am I supposed to say to a woman that has basically a generic sentence or 2 with 2 photo’s?  And don’t say “don’t email that women then” because at this point there’d be no one left to email…….LOL

    1. 13.1
      Malika

      Hi JB:

      Probably best to keep on clicking until you find a rounded out profile. Are the 10 % who are left over attractive for you?  Or do they maybe at least state their favourite books or movies? That can at least be a conversation starter.

      From the three men i have seriously dated these past three years only one had a non cryptic profile. When we met they turned out to be really good dates, but only one had the gift of being able to e-mail conversationally and effortlessly.

      1. 13.1.1
        JB

        None of that answers my question. I email everyone on Match/POF, it’s irrelevant. I want to know what’s on the “Elite” sites. I know what’s on all the other sites. All 500 of them. I have a recon profile on all or most of them. Can anyone tell me what an “Elite”site is and what’s on them? What would I be missing if I was an “Elite” man or woman?

  14. 14
    Theodora

    One of the problems is that what we consider an “elite” partner would be different for men and women. An accomplished man with a great career but average looks would be an elite choice for many women, but a woman with the same credentials is not very desirable for many, if not most, men, particularly the “elite” ones. For exemple, let’s say that on an elite dating site we have Jerry Seinfeld and Amy Schumer. Similar in achievements and average in looks, but how many women will go for him and how many men for her?

    By virtue of his career alone, not mentioning other qualities,  he would be an “elite” choice for women. Her, not so much for the opposite sex, and least of all the “elite” men.

    1. 14.1
      Gala

      Oh dude you are so off-base here. First, compared to Seinfeld who in a couple of years could be a billionaire, Amy Schumer is a minor celebrity. Second, she WAS dating an “elite” guy who she met on an “elite” dating app Raya… and who also was 5 years her junior. You can bet your ass that she will end up dating another celeb. People  mostly date from their social circle, but nice try haha. Could your imagined persona possibly be less cliche? It’s getting boring.

      1. 14.1.1
        Theodora

        Nope, I stand by what I wrote. This “elite” guy was an obscure artist who didn’t earn even 1/4 of what she earns.

        And according to the media hype (which you can follow even from an obscure country in Eastern Europe) she is one of the stand-up commedians of the moment, more than the so 90s Jerry Seinfeld.

        Still: if we can use celebrities as an archetypal example of what men and women like and desire (which is as reliable as ancient myths and archetypes, to paraphrase Camille Paglia), an “elite” choice for women would be somebody like Jerry Seinfeld. An elite choice for men would be Jennifer Lawrence or even the uber-feminist Amber Tamblyn (whose husband is 18 years older and minus 2 points looks-wise).  Well, Amal Clooney would also qualify: model looks, 16 years younger plus great credentials.

        1. Gala

          You have no idea what she or he were making at that point. Clearly, he was making enough and was with the in-crowd to be on Raya – the network most men wouldn’t even know about. Fact is, your whole argument that elite men on those apps wouldn’t go for someone like Amy Schumer is blown by the fact that this, actually, is exactly what has happened – to the very woman your blue pill swallowing friends would not deem “deserving”. Jeez. Moreso, virtually every female celebrity who is not conventionally attractive is married, and to men who would be considered highly desirable by the rest of the population.

          And as far as what elite men want in their partners, again, it may come as a shock but that is not primarily their appearance. They pick women who can be partners, help advance their social standing, business and/or careers, and are intellectually equals. Bill and Hillary. Mark and Priscilla. Heck, even Anthony Weiner, back when he could still be considered an eligible person- and Huma. Sure they may be attracted to a 20-something intern or a stripper, but for serious relationships? These men think with their head. In fact, I would posit that this way of thinking is one of the things that makes them truly elite – and what sets them apart from the rest of the population.

        2. Sum Guy

          Gala, @ 14.1.1

          I agree with this, with one correction:

          They pick women who can be partners, help advance their social standing, business and/or careers, and are intellectually equals. Bill and Hillary. Mark and Priscilla. Heck, even Anthony Weiner, back when he could still be considered an eligible person- and Huma. Sure they may be attracted to a 20-something intern or a stripper, but for serious relationships? These men think with their head.greed and of themselves first and second, and their legacy third; you and all around them are but a means to an end.  In fact, I would posit that this way of thinking is one of the things that makes them truly elite – and what sets them apart from the rest of the population.”

          Note their attraction to strippers and interns does not stop once you marry them.

          Though I seriously doubt these types of men are what Evan’s clients want or this sight is about.  If so, then the advice he gives is worthless for getting and even somewhat keeping these men.

          No doubt, though they have charm, and lots of it.

        3. Gala

          Sum Guy:

          Funny 🙂 Be that as it may, I would say advancing family fortunes and building one’s legacy are more noble pursuits than chasing tits on a stick. And certainly not more shallow than the latter. I would also think that women in these unions are aligned with their husbands on the values.

          To drive the point home, and to educate our “romanian” friend here on how elite men in this country select their partners, i offer a visual:

          “if i want to be a senator, i need to marry a Jackie, not a a Marilyn”

           

        4. Evan Marc Katz

          And then there was Trump. But that’s another story for another day.

        5. Jeremy

          There’s chasing “tits on a stick,” there’s “building a legacy,” and then there’s trying to lead a happy life where one’s goals of positive affect, engagement, relationships, meaning and achievement are actualized.  To do this, should a man choose Jackie or Marilyn?  Should a woman choose Clinton or Clooney?  Answer – likely neither.  Such is the tragedy of anyone claiming to either be or need someone elite.

        6. Gala

          Jeremy: that may be true. We all have our own ideas of what is going to make us happy (and to some it is going to involve the pursuit of power or what not). The point, I guess, I am trying to make, is that elite apps do not alter the reality, they merely reflect the reality of how our society functions that is already in place, and has been in place for centuries. They are the 21st century/digital version of debutante societies, country clubs, etc. Nothing new here. “Traditional” OLD where everybody can connect with everybody didn’t reflect this reality properly – the society doesn’t function that way – and now it is merely adjusting to it. What’s new is old.

      2. 14.1.2
        Sum Guy

        Gala,

        A quick question, how much direct experience do you have with “elite” males?  Feel free to define it however you want.

         

        Your generalizations are valid for a subset in my direct experience, and good advice for a woman if ALL she is looking for in this guy is money and status.

        1. Gala

          Sum Guy:

          I have worked in private wealth for nearly 10 years. I have worked for ultra-high net worth (i.e. billionaire) families directly and also worked for outside advisors, and work at a family owned firm now – the kind of family that has its names on everything and whose fortunes go back centuries.  I worked with new money, old money, 2nd generation money, everything in between. So, to sum up, a lot of experiences. I have never dated an heir to a large family fortune though I do know a number of them professionally. But, like I said, these people would always keep you at arms length. I am not gonna get invited to their birthday party or become friends with them outside of work. And because of this i just don’t see any of them with a “nail technician” (nor do I know any).  They live in their own bubble l, just like we all do.

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Gala

          well you are higher up the money food chain than i

          i only know 100 millionaires, all the ones I know made it themselves, good idea, working their ass off, acquisition

          much more in the millions net worth world personally, also know the country club world (part the exs family other part helped the 100 millionaires get there 100 millions)

           

          believe me think, once twice and thrice before getting into a relationship with inherited money

          made it himself money much much better if not a parasite or con man

           

          I’ve partied with inherited money but the only cool ones had rejected the whole philosophy of wealth makes right

          so not been so “at arms length” to some degree, had many a guy talk with such “elite” men, beer always involved to some degree :).    Have been even asked my advice on the fairer sex, by great men and guys who assumed I was mercenary like them (I’ve a whole train ride on being informed of the finer points of keeping a mistress and hiding assets from your wife.).

          I can contrast that with my blue collar/country/trailer park/inner city background    That’s how the I connect with the few rock star n NFL guys I know    Fucked up beginnings to success, and the parasites we deal with.   Also there is something you learn growing up that way, respect everyone until they lose it, trust no one until they earn it

           

          I agree with you, none of those folks you mention are with a nail technician except Ozzie:)  I’m thinking more CEOs, law firm partners, venture fund guys, etc

           

          I think we many of us want that perfect amalgam of raw sexual strength/energy and respect for us as we truly are, without judgement or being held to a role.   For me I find that in educated women, especially those from lowly beginnngs  like my own.

           

          Wealth though always has its allure, if nothing else of a freedom from the bullshit of this world, a buffer against disrespect    You provide services to the ultra-wealthy so you know how well they love/need the illusion of being loved.  To believe the respect the receive is for themselves and not bought.   Well except for the sociopaths who have no conscious and only love dominance.

           

          Do you want to break into their bubble though?

          i decided years ago to define my own “bubble” that the true definition of success is living the way you want,

           

  15. 15
    Marika

    YAG

    We’ve had this conversation multiple times, but to reiterate, as a woman with a postgraduate degree, I completely do NOT differentiate between men with undergraduate degrees and higher degrees whatsoever. Neither does any woman I’ve ever met. It’s, quite frankly, a ridiculous assertion. Perhaps it matters in Washington, for some reason and that’s informing your views, not sure. Further, the vast majority of men who contact me online have only a high school or certificate level (eg trade) education.

    You also seem to think there’s a direct relationship between education level and income. Not true. CEOs of major corporations (who may perhaps have a bachelor degree & not always) far, far outearn professors with PhDs in universities, hospitals etc.

    1. 15.1
      Gala

      I concur with Marika…. I care more about income than a degree on paper. Graduate degree doesn’t do anything for me. In fact I would probably steer clear from a guy with a PhD online (masters ok) because I would assume him to be too book-wormish and not making money and not being Street-smart. I like me a guy who has a good hustle.

      That said, YAG, you have completely missed my point. Since height and income are so tightly correlated, a woman who would filter based on both would not eliminate such a disproportionate percentage of dating prospects as your calculation implies. In fact because these qualities are not independent, and taller guys are more likely to also be high earners, you can’t multiply percentages the way you did.

      1. 15.1.1
        Theodora

        You are right about one point: yes, height and intelligence correlate in men. Unfortunately, hip-to–waist ratio and symmetrical facial features, in PC vocabulary “conventional atractiveness/beauty”, also have a correlation not only with a woman’s desirability and ability to attract men, but also with intelligence, genetic fitness, health, less prone to promiscuity (contrary to feminist “wisdom”, the most sexually liberated/sluttiest women have average looks and genetic fitness, just like a female 6 being able to sleep with male 9s, which says nothing about her capacity to attract the most desirable men for a commited relationship).

        Anyway: don’t be surprised if on one of these elite dating sites the pretty, younger, sweeter, more feminine receptionist or hostess can do better than you (or me).. Probably she is better as a potential wife, mother, lover, companion and helpmeet, and contrary to what some self-procclaimed ‘intelligent” women believe, she can also be better at practical, social, emotiional or mating intelligence.

        1. Gala

          Sweetie, “elite men” marrying cute receptionists only happens in romantic comedies and in misogynistic reddits where your buddies are hanging out inventing myths with which to beat down their “enemies” – successful women who pay no attention to them (this one is right up there with “the wall” and the rest of this  b/s). While “elite men” may fuck the perfect hip-to-waist ratio on occasion, they move on to marry jackies and hillaries and the like, who they have been meeting in their elite circles long before elite apps or internet existed – and where cute receptionists were never invited.  People sort by class first, appearance … not even the second i thing. And the “elite” are where they are because they are especially good at it, and have been doing it for generations.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Theo.

          “. . .the most sexually liberated/sluttiest women have average looks and genetic fitness. . .”

          Cite the studies you are referencing.  This isn’t the Red Pill reddit page where guys like you can pass around unsubstantiated assertions “I read somewhere once. . .”  as scientific facts because they conveniently fit your narrative.

        3. Henriette

          As a woman who might fall into the “elite” category (if based on criteria like intelligence, education, income etc), I suppose I should prefer it if “elite” men only married cute receptionists in romcoms and Reddit threads.  However, I know more than a few wealthy, educated guys who’ve wed nail technicians, secretaries and nannies.

          And, herein lies the problem with “elite” dating sites.  Most of the educated, successful, well-bred men I know don’t give a hoot about     a woman’s lineage, schooling or net worth.  They want “elite” wives but to them, “elite” means slim, agreeable, groomed and soft-spoken.  I’m not suggesting that every “elite” man is like this,  but I certainly challenge those of those of you who insist that all elite men want fellow brainy high-earners.  Few elite guys I know would bother with elite online dating sites because they’re not looking for similar traits in women.

           

        4. Gala

          @Henriette:

          i find it so interesting that you say that, because I literally can’t think of a single person who fit this “wealthy guy meets a nail technician” scenario and I do know a lot of  wealthy people. I would like to learn a bit more about it. Mainly, how did those couples meet exactly? Did the women specifically target these men? What age range are we talking about, creating families or men working out mid-life crisis? Is this happening on the east coast?

          It’s just that the society here seems very, what’s the word – stratified ? I don’t see how it would be more possible for a nail technician to socialize with a wealthy guy than it would be for me to hang with Bill Gates. It’s like I am “in” up to a certain point,  but I know exactly where the glass ceiling is. There’s certain level of wealth/social status where the difference becomes too great and those people would never consider me one of them. I have worked with ultra high net worth families  for a long time and have seen plenty. People who work for them can be rich themselves (my former boss became a millionaire many times over by managing private wealth), but we are still just glorified “help”, only we don’t clean dishes, we handle investments. But we would never be so confused as to think that these people would actually include us into their social circle. That never happens. So, I’d be highly curious to see how those nail technicians even got close enough to be in the orbit of these people, given that they spend their lives being chauffeured between their business meetings, private jets and estates and pretty much never even have to set foot into the real world. Perhaps I can learn something new here.

          Oh, and now that I’ve thought hard about it, I do know one couple such as this. However, they both belong to the same immigrant community and come from the same city in their country of origin and this is how they met. Plus at the time the guy wasn’t that rich, just affluent, and he is still not in the 8 figures club, so… But yeah, technically they are a multi-millionaire and a hairdresser.

           

           

        5. Jeremy

          @Gala, I had an interesting discussion with GoWithTheFlow about “assortive mating” a while back.  The basic idea, as you probably know, is that people with similar backgrounds tend to marry each other, resulting in a stratification of wealth/status.  University educated people tend to marry university educated people, people with middle class backgrounds marry other middle class people, etc.

           

          The point I was trying to make was that although I agree that assortive mating happens, it is very sensitive but not very specific.  It’s like saying that Canadians marry other Canadians – true, but not terribly insightful.  The bigger insight, IMHO, involves the role of income in the marriage decision process.  Women might marry men who come from similar backgrounds, but more important is the background they will be able to PROVIDE in the future.  Whereas for men, the woman’s background is important, but her income potential far less so.  So in terms of assortive mating, men marry assortively in retrospect, and women marry assortively in prospect.

           

          How many successful men do I know who married estheticians?  Not many.  How many successful men do I know who married women who went to university but graduated with FAR less income-generating potential than themselves, and nowhere near enough to provide the lifestyle that they, themselves, had growing up?  LOTS.  How many women do I know that did the same?  not many.

        6. Henriette

          @Gala – to be honest, I find it weird, too, but it seems to happen so often that I’ve ceased to be surprised by it.  The guy I know who wed the nail technician is handsome, smart, successful, raised with tennis lessons and private schools, etc.  He spent most of his 20s and 30s dating and dumping  a bevvy of cute, eager women while sinking his real focus into building his business.  Mid-40s, he finally felt like he could take some energies away from that (I’d guesstimate he’s worth upper 8-figures) and want to start a family.  Finally settled on one woman – similar upbringing, about 10 years younger,  career in the arts so not high earning but very pretty, sporty, etc – who then cheated on him a year into the relationship.  Took it hard.   Asked friends to set him up: just wanted someone feminine, easy-going, fertile, cute and good values.  We all threw educated, accomplished, interesting women his way but he settled on a nail technician who speaks spotty English (only in Canada for 4 years, at the time of engagement) who one of his female friends had chatted with at church.  Slim, quiet, traditional, frugal, 15 years his junior.  They’ve been married 3 years now, one baby, another on the way.  Do I believe it’s a meeting of the minds or that they’re “soulmates?”  Nope. But I think they both got what they wanted (him: a family with a woman who doesn’t complain, argue or cheat and her: a family, beautiful house, high status in her new country) so are probably as happy as many couples.

          Hope this helps.

        7. CaliforniaGirl

          @Gala,

          I know many wealthy guys (self made and not billionaires) who are in serious relationships with uneducated and  not very smart or successful (a restaurant hostess, a “model” and many unemployed) young and very good looking girls. And those guys are lawyers, doctors and tech executives. They don’t need a life partner, they have friends or work for that. They need a good looking, always available and easily wowed girl, who will meet them home in lingerie and will tell them how smart and masculine they are. I, actually, can relate, it is easier. Maybe a very rich “old money” type of guys would marry someone from their own circle but self-made wealthy men feel like in a candy store.

      2. 15.1.2
        Katie

        Gala says “I care more about income than a degree on paper.”

        K, so drawing a picture of Gala here. She wants money.

        Gala says “Graduate degree doesn’t do anything for me. In fact I would probably steer clear from a guy with a PhD online (masters ok) because I would assume him to be too book-wormish and not making money and not being Street-smart. I like me a guy who has a good hustle.”

        So she wants money. Got it.

        Gala says “Since height and income are so tightly correlated, a woman who would filter based on both would not eliminate such a disproportionate percentage of dating prospects as your calculation implies.”

        And yes she would eliminate a lot. She would eliminate a huge amount because the correlation is slight. Correlations means jack shit when we’re talking about real individuals. Your argument is logically the same as me telling someone “You’re a white woman so you can’t dance.” or “You’re a black woman so you can cook well.” There’s also a correlation between tall height and early death. There’s a correlation between tall height and getting cancer. So what?

        Gala says,”In fact because these qualities are not independent…”

        Correlation is not causation. Your correlations are meaningless in the context of real life.

         

      3. 15.1.3
        Sum Guy

        Gala,

        It really matters where you draw the line at “elite.”

        I’ve seen many elite men  (in the income sense, but also pretty smart) marry the “receptionist,”  always much younger and very hot.  It is so common a phenomena it even has a name, “trophy wife.”  And yes these women need to have social skills and beauty, but that is all they need to bring to the table or the bedroom.   I’m guessing a good portion of “elite” men on elite dating sites are looking for this.

         

        Some may be looking for a true relationship, but they also want to weed out the gold diggers who are really only impressed by their wealth and status.

         

        There are other “elite” men who marry for money/connections; or should I say they marry to facilitate their becoming “elite” or more “elite.”  This seems more common in the realms of politics, as opposed to business.    Those men may certainly be seeking an educated woman to help them advance.  These men are not searching on dating sites for their power partner and a woman who could really meet this criteria is not on such a site.

         

      4. 15.1.4
        Nissa

        Please ignore Katie, she’s being overly harsh. I would echo your question: where are these guys meeting the women they marry? Is it at college, or at the country club? I would assume location has a great deal to do with it. Let’s say you are on Tinder or Match in a place like LA. I’d say you have a much greater chance of meeting someone who meets that ‘elite’ criteria than someone who lives in, say, Waco Texas. Location can give you a higher number of people = higher number of potential eligible men.

        Still, it would be interesting to know what kind of events these men are attending. I’m picturing political events, charity fund raisers, playing tennis at the country club and Tony Robbins seminars. Maybe I should start haunting my local TD Ameritrade offices.

        1. Sum Guy

          Nissa,

          In a nut shell work, or some professional they hire like a personal trainer.

          A man that meets almost any definition of “elite” is working (exclude commuting etc.) over 60 hours a week easy, you essentially end up living to work/living at work.    Achieving and keeping elite status takes work and lots of it, unless you are born to money and daddy paved the way for you.

           

          I’m picturing political events, charity fund raisers, playing tennis at the country club and Tony Robbins seminars. Maybe I should start haunting my local TD Ameritrade offices

          All depends on how much of the goods you bring.  These are all places he lives, where he cannot risk social embarrassment.  If you are comparable to him in financial / social status or can make him think so then likely OK, you have something to lose and bring.  The biggest fear is some crazy woman who will make life difficult for him when he breaks it off.

          He may well fall for a woman beneath him financially/socially (that is a gold digger /striver) but will only meet her/pick up her from a more secure place not associated with where he lives.  Bar, on-line dating, etc.

           

          The reason these guys  marry the “receptionist” though is they know them.  Have seen them day in and out, and trust them.  After all they likely had a secret affair for some time first.  Don’t underestimate the service oriented nature of the woman’s interactions with them, a big ego stroke for a lot of these guys.

           

          I’d last say if he is at a Tony Robbins seminar as anything but a paid speaker, run…as he will soon be parted from his money. 🙂

           

           

          I could give better pointers from my experience but it does depend on age and life-stage your looking for.  Getting the 35 year old is different then the 45 year old, big difference too is if he is already their and your the first wife or second.

           

        2. Gala

          Nissa 🙂 i have thick skin so don’t worry. I have a pretty good idea where these guys hang out, and it is not places where regular people would get in easily, cheaply, or even at all (i.e. invitation only or member/only clubs, events). It’s not like these guys are gonna stop by in the same bodega with a nails girl to pick up lunch, or run into her in a laundromat… Even in a fairy tale Cinderella still needed somebody to supply a proper dress, a carriage and put her name on the VIP list 🙂 to get into a room where her prince could notice her, you know what I mean? There’re clearly professional Cinderellas out there who are gonna go and hunt for a rich husband, but they succeed so rarely that those stories become “legendary” and inspire the next generation of gold-diggers 🙂 that has been my experience at least.

        3. CaliforniaGirl

          @Nissa,

          In LA there are a lot of services (I know someone who owns one) who provide wealthy guys with young and beautiful women. They scout Instagram and Facebook for beautiful girls and reach out to them saying that they have a very wealthy client who is interested. 99% of girls agree to meet those guys who are usually 15-25 years older. None of the guys care about education or income of these women, only the cup and body size. They usually date them 1-6 months and change for another one. My friend makes a very good living from the company.

    2. 15.2
      Sum Guy

      Exactly why I downplay my income and resources big time…I never want to meet anyone who uses how much money I make (past that I am gainfully employed and not a bum) as a criteria.

       

      CEOs these days are far more educated than the high-school drop-out CEO myth of the 50s.    Even founder CEOs who dropped out of college, did not do so because they couldn’t cut it academically, but because they had better things to do.  College is still pretty much required for your MBA CEOs as that is where you make your connections.  Most Founder CEOs are tech guys, with one or more PhDs, savvy geek through and through.  Even the programmer guys, even with not much formal education, value the intellectual and geeky.  The up through the ranks CEOS usually started out with a position that required a college degree then rose up through the ranks of management.

       

      The statistics are valid that higher education correlates with higher earnings, in general, to pick the outliers (unspecified CEOs) and University professors is antidotal at best.  It may have nothing to do with the degree, it could be just intelligence, determination, connections,…but it does exist.

      In fact such university professors can often monetize what they do if they so wanted and the prominent ones when they slow down are often on the boards of tech companies and advise private capital companies.  Not that this is generally known and often confidentiality provisions prevent it from being publicized.

       

      I’ve met plenty of women who differentiate based on level of education; primarily because they want a man as smart of them, someone they can talk to.   It often correlates to intelligence as well, a trait they desire.

       

      I am certain my experience is because I am highly educated so meet women who are not filtering me out based on that, but I come very blue collar and poor roots.   Can’t tell you the number of women friends from my roots, or even back in the day, who valued intelligence / education in a man.

      1. 15.2.1
        Sum Guy

        Meant to say:…”I am certain my experience is self-selective because I am highly educated so meet women who are not filtering me out based on that, but I come from very blue collar and poor roots.”

      2. 15.2.2
        Marika

        Fair points, Sum Guy. I work in (allied) health where everyone is highly educated and not well paid, so my experience is very different & that informs my views. I used to work in the university sector, too, and was shocked by how little university professors earn.

        However, from a woman’s perspective, I can absolutely assure you ‘educated’ means a tertiary educated. I know of no woman who particularly prizes postgraduate education, and as Gala said, for many women a PhD would actually be a turn off.

        Do bachelorette’s go and watch university lecturers strip??? Nooo. Remember that a man who works with his hands is sexy, sexy, sexy.

        We’re not all doing some logical income × education × height calculation in our heads before contacting cute men online….!!

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          Do bachelorette’s go and watch university lecturers strip??? Nooo. Remember that a man who works with his hands is sexy, sexy, sexy.

          Yep. Wouldn’t you take a sexy, uneducated man over a highly educated but unsexy one?

        2. Jeremy

          Emily asked, “Wouldn’t you take a sexy, uneducated man over a highly educated but unsexy one?”  Answer – depends what you’re taking him for.  Short-term fling?  Marriage with kids?  The answer will differ for most women, I’ve observed.  Because in addition to sexual goals, they also have lifestyle goals.  And little girls who play house fantasize about the lifestyle goals far before they fantasize about the sexual ones.  This is not a bad thing.  It simply IS.  We would be blind not to see it.  Especially for women who want to have children.

        3. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          You know I love all your well-thought out arguments and opinions, but for once you can’t answer this question I posed to Marika. You’re a man.   🙂

        4. Jeremy

          That is a good and fair argument 🙂  Do you disagree with what I wrote, though?

        5. Sum Guy

          Marika,

          Do bachelorette’s go and watch university lecturers strip??? Nooo.” Remember that a man who works with his hands is sexy, sexy, sexy.”

          Do bachelors go and watch educated, intelligent women strip?

          Do bachelorettes seek to date those men?  You’re really playing into the hands of the manosphere that all women want is big muscles and a big package, or money, with and extra dose of swagger, so all the relationship values Evan talks about are then truly meaningless.

           

          I’m not sure getting male strippers is what this site aims for, if so, known guys that do that, both the gay and straight ones, could share the perspectives I’ve heard.

           

          Remember that a man who works with his hands is sexy, sexy, sexy.”

          If you mean as a full time job, then someone needs to tell my blue collar friends.  They can’t seem to get a woman (younger or older) who will go for them, at least one who is hot.  And these are the one who stayed in shape, albeit that is very rare after age 40.

           

          What I suspect you really mean by “work with his hands” is being in physical shape, nice shoulders, strong arms and forearms, a confident manner even, basically an idealized and stereotypical image of the working man.

          Here’s my experience, blue collar guys are in no better than the highly educated ones, in personality or shape.   Guys from both worlds have their more stereotypical douche baggery, guess it depends on what flavor you like.  There are also good ones in both worlds, great ones.

          In my experience, after age 40, the more educated guys on average are in better shape waistline wise.  Muscle wise fairly comparable.  One caveat, over age 40 most men, blue collar or ivory tower, are really out of shape, guts and all.   I’m excluding the ones who have medical issues, on the job injuries, etc.

           

          I’ve found there is a much higher chance of a buff highly educated guy after 40 than a buff uneducated one.   The blue collar guys I know that stayed in shape past 40 (or even 35) are very few, and out of several dozen there is only 1 over 5’9″ that is in shape.  I think the shorter ones, who all have taller once athletic wives, feel they need to.

          It’s that exercise and such is much more a part of the educated culture, playing team sports is a big part of the blue collar culture, but being a weekend warrior is not enough.  Conversely, there is a whole running, biking, triathlon,  personal trainer, gym culture among the educated.  And although few people take full advantage of it, enough men do that by 40+ there are more of those really buff guys among the educated.

           

          Emily

          Yep. Wouldn’t you take a sexy, uneducated man over a highly educated but unsexy one?”

          First, I believe this site is dedicated to helping women see past chemistry (e.g. pure physical attraction) to compatibility.

          In general, I believe a successful educated woman is going to find greater compatibility with an educated man.  In ability to communicate, world view, and values.

          I also believe every woman would want a sexy man over unsexy .     It’s not an either or choice, sexy vs. educated.

           

          I think most women this site is directed to would rather have a sexy and educated man.   That is why they are here.   Those guys hold a lot of cards.

          You could also add in successful, which in the broader definition (of not just $, but even then) is likely to include educated.  These guys hold even more cards.

           

          Getting an uneducated and sexy man is not hard for a successful educated woman, IF she is hot enough AND she has no problem being a sugar mamma, as uneducated guys typically are not in the same financial strata as educated and successful women.   You may have to finesse the gender equality piece, and deal with his insecurities about making less.

          Likewise getting an uneducated and sexy younger woman is not hard for a successful educated man, IF he has a large enough income to waistline ratio  AND he has no problem being a sugar daddy, as uneducated women typically are not in the same financial strata as educated and successful men they are easy to impress.

           

           

           

           

           

        6. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Because in addition to sexual goals, they also have lifestyle goals.  And little girls who play house fantasize about the lifestyle goals far before they fantasize about the sexual ones.  This is not a bad thing.  It simply IS.  We would be blind not to see it.  Especially for women who want to have children.

          It’s hard for me to answer that. I never wanted children. You know I’m an Idealist/Explorer so I was always looking for someone who made me feel like he had put my soul in a jar and was shaking it up!   🙂   I was talking the other day about dating/men with a friend who also didn’t want kids. She said it was difficult to find everything in one person and she needed 3 men for each of the realms — sexual, emotional, intellectual.

        7. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          What I suspect you really mean by “work with his hands” is being in physical shape, nice shoulders, strong arms and forearms, a confident manner even, basically an idealized and stereotypical image of the working man.

          I’m guessing, but I think Marika means a man who knows how to lay it down. His appearance is only a small part of that. The idea that he operates from the gut and is not so much a thinker as a doer.

          I think most women this site is directed to would rather have a sexy and educated man.   

          Obviously

        8. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          I’m guessing, but I think Marika means a man who knows how to lay it down. His appearance is only a small part of that. The idea that he operates from the gut and is not so much a thinker as a doer.”

          Well I’d say my point is even stronger.  “Laying it down” comes from confidence and intelligence.   No negative correlation with graduation education with either of those.

          Being a can do person I’m all for that, don’t care for can’t doers.   Also can’t abide a cock-sure fool who confuses lack of impulse control with action.  Yet I assume you are just speaking on the dating/pick-up scene, not how he lives his life.

           

          I get the strong impression that you think graduate degrees make men into effete wafflers.  Certainly there are more effete wafflers among men with graduate degrees than compared to blue collar guys.    However, there are more women are second class creatures meant to serve men types among blue collar guys than men with graduate degrees.

          My experience is these negative types are about the same percentage of their respective demographic, although I may be greatly underestimating the blue collar types that view women as second class because I never played that.

          Yet I assume you want neither of those so it’s only a matter of what BS you want to deal with while dating.

        9. Jeremy

          Emily, “You know I’m an Idealist/Explorer so I was always looking for someone who made me feel like he had put my soul in a jar and was shaking it up!”  Yeah, I feel for you.  Explorers have it bad enough with their need for novelty (shaking up), and Idealists have it bad enough with their love for emotion (soul) – put them together and you’ve got some pretty big expectations.  And given that happiness is the intersection of expectation and perception, if expectations are bombastic, happiness is often elusive.

          I could tell you that a relationship that, when plotted happiness against time, gives a flat line with excellent average is the ideal marriage.  Far better than one with sharp peaks and troughs.  But seeing it that way is more typical of Guardians and Rationals.  Still, people can learn to be more like other types.  No part of me is a Guardian but my wife is – and I’ve picked up a few traits from her, to my advantage.  Because when expectations are sky high we have only 2 choices – settle, or flit from relationship to relationship.  When we adjust our expectations to something realistic and adjust our perceptions to correctly reflect the good in our lives (rather than what we perceive as lacking), the happiness that was once so elusive becomes a frequent dinner guest.

        10. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,
          Also can’t abide a cock-sure fool who confuses lack of impulse control with action.  Yet I assume you are just speaking on the dating/pick-up scene, not how he lives his life.
          My point was that some men are just sexy. I’m sure there are women who men view in the same way. Women who give off the vibe they’d be fun in bed. I don’t men slutty. It’s an energy the person has. I don’t think it’s something one can learn. In terms of men, it can be correlated with confidence. If a man carries that confidence, that willingness to take chances, into other parts of his life, that’s not a bad thing.
          I get the strong impression that you think graduate degrees make men into effete wafflers.
          No. Actually, the one point I made about education was that I don’t think most women care about a graduate degree. From my experience, there are women who have a bachelor’s degree and want to date someone who also has a bacherlor’s.

      3. 15.2.3
        Emily, the original

        Mr. Jeremy,
         And given that happiness is the intersection of expectation and perception, if expectations are bombastic, happiness is often elusive.
        I’m going to write that down. I have a wall of quotes tackily scotch-taped to the wall my next to my desk. I’m going to put you right next to  Mae West: I used to be Snow White, but  I drifted. 🙂   I wouldn’t say happiness is elusive but that most of life is, well, routine. There are moments of connection with other people, moments of intellectual curiosity and satisfaction when one improves and learns. But moments of joy and certainly moments of excitement … those are harder to come by.
        Because when expectations are sky high we have only 2 choices – settle, or flit from relationship to relationship.  When we adjust our expectations to something realistic 
        Everything you are writing makes perfect sense. It just seems so much of life is adjusting one’s expectations, is it necessary to adjust in everything?

        1. Jeremy

          No, not in everything.  Sometimes the better strategy is to adjust perception rather than expectation.  The other day, I was sitting on my couch in the den of my house.  2 of my girls were drawing pictures, my son was watching baseball, my youngest toddled up to me and silently offered a bite of the cookie she was eating (she is 18 months).  I looked at my life – at the routine moment, the lack of any sharp spike of elation or novelty, and experienced pure satisfaction and happiness.  Nothing to do with lowered expectation.  Everything to do with perception.   We need not talk ourselves into being happy, but rather perceive the quality of the lives we live.

        2. Emily, the original

          Jeremy,

          Everything to do with perception.   We need not talk ourselves into being happy, but rather perceive the quality of the lives we live.

          To an extent, yes, but a lot of people are constantly trying to better themselves and get to a different place. Nothing wrong with that. If a person wants something better/different, it’s up to him/her to go out and get it.

    3. 15.3
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      We’ve had this conversation multiple times, but to reiterate, as a woman with a postgraduate degree, I completely do NOT differentiate between men with undergraduate degrees and higher degrees whatsoever. Neither does any woman I’ve ever met.

      I agree. I do know some women who would like a man to have an undergraduate degree because they have one and they value education. But I can’t think of one time I’ve heard a woman say she wanted the man to have a graduate degree.

    4. 15.4
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      You need to go back and re-read the entire post.  I did not imply that graduate degree holders earn more than non-graduate holders.  I posted an example of a high-income man who only holds a high school diploma.  The general contractor who built the custom home in which I lived when I was married does very well financially, but he barely graduated from high school.  I can assure you that an attractive woman with only an undergraduate degree will not date this man where I live.  Educational attainment level matters to women who live in this part of the country.   While female graduate degree holders have no choice, but to date men who only hold undergraduate degrees if they want to obtain a date.  Their preference is always a graduate degree holder.   The same holds true for female undergraduate degree holders.

      As far as to educational attainment being inversely proportionate to hustle and street smarts, that correlation is not implicit.  I am the first man in my family to graduate from college and the only member of my generation to graduate from graduate school, and I did it without a dime of support from my parents from the age of 18.  That is not very common in the United States.

      As far to income, income is transient.  Earning power is subject to structural change.  I thought that I was untouchable income-wise until age 40.  That is when my industry was hit by a tidal wave of bad investment known as the dot-com implosion.   I was sitting on 100,000 options in a non-dot-com tech company that was due to go public. We were not selling vapor. We had an actual product that worked well and solved a pressing problem.  The problem was that a few of our larger customers were selling to dot-com companies who ended up defaulting, resulting sizable bad debt.  Our largest account was Hewlett Packard.  They pulled a 15,000 seat deal, resulting in a downgrade of the company to a point where our investors pulled the plug, and the IPO that would have made my ex and me very wealthy evaporated.  It also set into place the free fall that eventually lead to end of my marriage.

      1. 15.4.1
        Yet Another Guy

        *led to the end

      2. 15.4.2
        Marika

        YAG

        As we’ve discussed before at length, this is the part I strongly disagree with: “Their preference is always a graduate degree holder”.

        I suppose you could claim that to be true of the small subset (relatively as a proportion of the population) of women you dated. It’s certainly not true of women with graduate degrees in general.

        Perception is not reality.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          It is not just the preference of women I have dated.  It has been the preference of almost every well-educated woman with whom I have spoken since I was in my twenties.  I live in the metro Area that contains the largest percentage of degree holders in the United States.  Forty-eight percent of adults hold at least a bachelor’s degree, and twenty-three percent hold a graduate degree.   Women can afford to be selective when it comes to education.  Very few women marry down in this area.

        2. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I don’t know where you live, but I have a graduate degree from a fairly impressive graduate program and don’t care if a man has a graduate degree.

        3. Sum Guy

          Marika, Emily,

          I’d have to say my experience lines up with YAG’s as well.

          Who I’ve dated is not relevant, as they are obviously already on team PhD.

          I’m  talking every woman I’ve ever had such a conversation with, usually it comes out at parties/ the bar when they bemoan how they can’t find an educated guy.   More so once they are a professional.

          These are friends and colleagues,   east coast, west coast, science, liberal arts, lawyers, MBAs.  I’ve heard it even more strongly from the fewer educated women I’ve know from Europe, they conveyed there is still a lot of: “women have a certain place thinking;” amongst “uneducated” European males.

           

           

        4. Sum Guy

          oops, when I refer to these women I’m talking about ones with graduate degrees, PhD, MBA, JD, even nurses, not the ones without such degrees.

           

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Sum Guy

          The women who comment on this blog are not representative of the general female population.  The same can be said for the men who comment.  Most people operate based on a set of social norms that were ingrained in them as children.  I have been reading a book entitled “The New Male Sexuality : The Truth about Men, Sex, and Pleasure” by Bernie Zilbergeld.  It has been an eye-opening experience.  An important thing that the author covers how society turns innocent little boys who wear their hearts on their sleeves into emotionally unavailable men, something he refers to as masculinity training.  Here is a quote from the book:

          Between the ages of five and eight, he has learned lessons about being male.  He will not cry, maybe never again.  Nor will he show fear or dependency or tenderness, and he may not even be able to ask for directions when he is lost.  He will lose his ability not only to show feelings, but also to experience and known them.  He won’t understand why his girlfriend or wife wants to cuddle, to hear his fears and express hers, simply to talk.

           

        6. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,
          Who I’ve dated is not relevant, as they are obviously already on team PhD.
          Are you a professor or do you work in an academic environment? Or for the federal government? Those two entities have higher percentage of people with graduate degrees.
          I’m  talking every woman I’ve ever had such a conversation with, usually it comes out at parties/ the bar when they bemoan how they can’t find an educated guy.   More so once they are a professional.
          Educated or holding a master’s degree? Those are two different things. You can be a professional without a master’s degree. I have certainly heard women say they want an educated man, but not once have I heard that with the caveat that he needs a graduate degree. That isn’t to say they won’t be impressed with a man who has a graduate degree, but it’s not something that’s a deal breaker if he doesn’t.

        7. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          Are you a professor or do you work in an academic environment? Or for the federal government? Those two entities have higher percentage of people with graduate degrees.”

          Worked in the academic world, government agencies and US military.   Know the company and tenure track world as well from friends.

          Moved into patent law (although done, SEC, private equity, state AG work, a lot of M&A), was a chief patent counsel for years for $1B++ rev companies.

           

          Educated or holding a master’s degree? Those are two different things. You can be a professional without a master’s degree. I have certainly heard women say they want an educated man, but not once have I heard that with the caveat that he needs a graduate degree. That isn’t to say they won’t be impressed with a man who has a graduate degree, but it’s not something that’s a deal breaker if he doesn’t.”

          Tried to clarify in my follow-on post.  By educated mean at least an MBA or JD, but almost always a PhD.

          The common thread is we all started not caring about education level, yet found time and time again that lower education level leads to a disconnect and an inability to have deeper conversations on many topics.

          Also it seems more likely than not the women who married the “work with his hands” guy had marriage troubles around her making more than him.  You can also imagine the dynamic where she is an executive directing a team of dozens and a budget of millions upon millions coming home to face an attitude of where have you been and what about dinner.

           

          It’s generally though not about intelligence or even world view or interest, plenty of people without the advanced degree are highly intelligent and have a similar world view and interest.

          It’s more about a grounding in certain knowledge (physics, mathematics, etc.) a life long history of curiosity and reading on everything (I read at least 1 non-fiction book a week and go on knowledge binges so to speak).   When in your 20 and 30’s the gap is not so wide, but by 40 or 50 it is.

           

          There is also an ability to critically think, analyze problems, identify missing information and obtain it, that is  honed by the day to day work someone with and advanced degree in venture capital, law, science, medicine, etc. does.  And as you get older the higher the stakes and the deeper the immersion.

          The degree itself is not the thing, but its more the job and life experience it opens up, and it often correlates with that driving curiosity, a fearlessness in the face of even the most complex task.

          You may think it is all intellectual no hands on or real world skills, but it’s not, but also the implications, the making side, and the entrepreneurial.

          Experimental science and engineers design, build and test complex machines for a living.  You learn how to wire, solder, plumb,  weld, machine etc. as just part of getting the job done (kind of like farmers), often working with deadly substances and dangerous voltages.   And field scientists, marine biologists, ice core samplers, etc. could turn around and be outdoor guides if they ever wanted.

           

          It’s also not about elitism, it’s more about being able to have certain deep conversations with your significant other.    One they just don’t enjoy and understand, but actually are a partner in and advance the ideas.

           

          It is very much coming from a place of people who look to their significant other as also a person who is their best friend, a partner.  Not where you have your man-woman domestic life but you pretty much have no cross over on things you like to do outside the home.  So a very non-traditional in the 1950s sense of tradition.

           

          I’ll say in my own experience I did not truly realize how much extra connection there is when you can have those conversations until dating after divorce.

          Oh and on the chemistry, how good they are in bed, my personal experience is the best women have been the most intellectually curious and best educated.  I know though I am not selecting at random, nor being selected at random.

        8. Alex

          I agree with Marika. I would probably not seek out a higher degree holder because they tend to be very in-their-own-head and not very fun.

          On the other hand, less than a Bachelors might give me pause too, but that seems to be more cultural than anything else. I come from a culture where pretty much everyone Goes to college. I wouldn’t hold education level against anyone if we hit it off, but there is a certain sweet spot between uneducated and stuck in an ivory tower.

        9. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          I’ll say in my own experience I did not truly realize how much extra connection there is when you can have those conversations until dating after divorce.

          Actually, if you read this blog, Evan talks about how, yes, there has to be an intellectual connection, but once kids arrive, how much time are you really talking about high-level mathematics?

          Maybe it’s just me. I grew up with  a professor and an engineer, both very dry and  unemotive. Smart, yes, but no ability to think on their own. Never met a rule they didn’t want to follow.

        10. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          “…, but once kids arrive, how much time are you really talking about high-level mathematics?”

          I won’t get into my ex but even though we never had high level conversations (a red flag I ignored) the conversations we did have didn’t change, we just had more related to the kids.

          I’m now past having more kids, although all late teens, and my girlfriend’s kids are all early twenties.  We talk about our kids, as they are part of our lives, yet the complex conversation is our staple.

          We do talk about mathematics, more from a neural-biology point of view (her strength), historical-religious-philosophical view on it from ancient times to now (my strength), statistics (her strength), set theory (my strength), learning and development (her strength), quantum-mechanics (my strength) etc., devise thought experiments and real experiments to test our ideas.  All while why we are cooking together or having a couple drinks.   Yet it rarely stays contained, as we spin off on topics and connect it to many things.

          Maybe it’s just me. I grew up with  a professor and an engineer, both very dry and  unemotive. Smart, yes, but no ability to think on their own. Never met a rule they didn’t want to follow.”

          That’s the opposite of my experience, again likely self selecting as would never hang around with the old guard, who are likely to be more conservative.  I tend to not equate rule followers with not thinking, they may well agree with the rules or the idea authority is to be respected no matter what.

          However, I’m the opposite, and most people with an advanced education I know, question authority, don’t take anyone’s word on something if you can confirm it for yourself, to think past facile statements and get the facts.  Doesn’t mean they don’t end up agreeing with authority for one reason or another.

           

          And un-emotive…not sure that has anything to do with advanced degrees, have seen that from parents in all education levels when growing up.    Very much the opposite, as those parents I know with advanced degrees seem to be very much emotive and engaged with their children and what they think.   The blue collar parents too for that matter, kind of a mixed town here.  This could also be who my kids associate with as I’m that way with them.

          Now my ex…she was the un-emotive, couldn’t think for herself one, and she barley got her undergrad degree, but I think that came more from her WASP-imitating wealthy family and it’s dysfunction than anything else.

        11. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          We do talk about mathematics, more from a neural-biology point of view (her strength), historical-religious-philosophical view on it from ancient times to now (my strength), statistics (her strength), set theory (my strength), learning and development (her strength), quantum-mechanics (my strength) etc., devise thought experiments and real experiments to test our ideas.  

          Well, if you’re wanting to talk about those kinds of topics, then, yes, you would need someone with an advanced degree. I’m a humanities major (English, journalism) and love talking about literature, movies, pop culture, the arts, plays, music, etc. I have a close friend who I call to read her stuff over the phone because I’m inspired and think something is well-written. But most of my “deep” conversations with friends are more emotional than intellectual — men, relationships, family, parents, upbringing, what they want out of life, what motivates them, how they define themselves. If I can get to that level with someone, I don’t find the intellectual stuff as important, but he would have to read a paper and have some idea about what was going on in the world.

      3. 15.4.3
        Sum Guy

        YAG

        As far as to educational attainment being inversely proportionate to hustle and street smarts, that correlation is not implicit. 

        I completely agree.  It has nothing to do with education but where you came from.   I come from a humble background, know and knew others that did, education was our ticket out.  Do people like that retain their street smarts and hustle, sure, but generally look down on that as a way of life, because we’ve seen what that life really is, not some romanticized movie, suburban notion.  Neither do most of the people I know like me buy into the country club mindset and it is hard to break into that culture.

         

        They say it is who you know, so very true, but if you have enough ability you get introduced to people, what you know can lead to who you know.  And the ability that almost always get you recognized, is one that derives from education.  (Let’s leave out the small percentage of the population from humble roots that hit great success through sports/entertainment)

         

        1. Marika

          Sum Guy 

          Based on the lengthy & detailed posts you’re writing on this topic, my guess is that higher degrees matter a lot to you (same goes with YAG) and that’s why you have such strong opinions on the topic and both get into discussions with acquaintances or people you’ve just met at parties about dating people with bachelor vs higher degrees. A conversation I’m pretty sure I’ve never had at a party with some random. Maybe the discussion starts when they find out you are highly educated and they sense your enthusiasm on the subject?

          It’s unsurprising. You’ve both very much had to ‘make your own way’ in the world and are highly educated off your own backs, not being from families where this is fostered, encouraged etc.

          When you come from a family where education is a given (my parents & brother all have degrees, my Dad and older sister have Masters), it’s really not such a big deal: finish school, go to uni, find out you want to work in a field requiring a higher degree, do it..never really think about it deeply or have big discussions about it or attach any real level of elitism to it.

          In educated families, higher degrees can even carry negative connotations, eg in Emily’s example.

          So, really, at the end of the day, we’re all still just trying to rebel from our family of origin! 😁

          PS to answer your earlier question, I’m Australian.

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Marika,

          I write long posts because I am avoiding work (this is also one way I refresh my mind to write more for work) and I write very fast (also why my posts are strewn with typos).  So not as much time or effort as you think.  My “detailed” writing is just how I present an argument.   Somewhere I gave my background a bit, so a 5-6 paragraph exposition on education in dating is easy.

           

          I will be the first to admit that my evidence could well be self selecting.  Birds of a feather and all that.  Also my experience is mostly in STEM.  Met a fair number of pretentious literature majors.

           

          These discussions I’ve been a part of are not with acquaintances or people just met at parties, but with people I’ve worked with day-in-day out, known for years, or friends of same.

          Maybe we are odd and break the concept of how educated people socialize, but think a group of 50 or so people who get together often and in different combinations.  One night there is a dozen of you sitting around drinking and talking about life.

          Or you go out to the bar after work with your close co-workers, different combinations different nights, and talk about life.

          Or you are at a conference, you meet friends of friends, drinks are going and you talk about life.

          The topic comes up when you have a few drinks in you and you’re talking about life (everyone knows everyone is highly educated), I mean relationships, kids, dating, etc.   We are not talking dissertations here, just people bemoaning certain things.   That’s the least surprising thing in such conversations.

          The desire I have consistently heard expressed by women with advanced educations is for educated men.  Never the opposite.   Not that this has happened overnight, I’m 50 so had a good 2o years to acquire this data.

          I have no idea if all women with advanced degrees think this way, but would say that they are not a minority.  The majority probably don’t initially care, but come to realize all other things being equal, the advanced degree holder is more likely to fit the bill.

          These people are form all sorts of backgrounds re parents education, I’m the odd person out, and my family does respect education.  My detailed knowledge on backgrounds is limited, some are like you describe with negative connotations, others describe very positive childhoods.

           

          With respect to the elitism angle, it’s often just an “Is that elitist of me?” question thrown out when it comes to selecting a romantic partner.  Has nothing to do with career choice.

           

          My experience is counter to your view and experience of the advanced degree.  So I explain where my view comes from and why I think people I’ve known have it.

          Certainly, intellectual compatibility is very important to me; as I’ve said elsewhere chemistry/hot sex is the easy part.

          See where you are coming from, so not sure much more to say on this one.

    5. 15.5
      Stacy

      Marika

      I completely agree. Even the snobby single women I have known don’t have post grad versus undergrad degree as a selection mechanism. Not sure where YAG got this theory from.  Of all the women I have known, I have literally NEVER seen this as a requirement.  I have met women who require at least a college degree though. But again, that’s about the size of it.

      While I prefer a man with a college degree (well, when I was single at least), it’s by no means a requirement.  I know too many successful men who’ve made it without one. The guy I am with now does not have a college degree but he is successful and extremely intelligent. I, on the other hand, have a post grad degree. I make a little more money than he does but the difference is by no means significant.

      1. 15.5.1
        Marika

        Stacy

        Maybe it’s a STEM thing? I think both YAG and Sum Guy are in STEM. Stacy2 too? Who was also pretty elitist. These gatherings where women are all sitting around getting bizarrely specific about who they would / wouldn’t date from an educational perspective sound like something out of the Big Bang Theory 😀

        The book smart thing doesn’t do it for me. I can hang out with my parents if I want to discuss intellectual theories. I also think it’s not hard to press ‘enrol’ on a university website & write essays.

        What impresses me is street smarts, emotional intelligence, charm, being a good listener, being funny and creative etc. Things you develop outside a lecture theatre.

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          What impresses me is street smarts, emotional intelligence, charm, being a good listener, being funny and creative etc. Things you develop outside a lecture theatre.

          Yes, me, too. Education is nice but certainly not the end all be all.

        2. Katie

          “Maybe it’s a STEM thing?…The book smart thing doesn’t do it for me.”

          “Book smart” is not representative of a STEM taught mindset. The fundamental basis of science using evidence to support logically derived conclusions. Logic and reason are the intelligence of STEM.

          Facts are for bar trivia.

          “I also think it’s not hard to press ‘enrol’ on a university website & write essays.”

          Maybe that’s what you have to do to get a post-graduate degree in the humanities or something. Just take classes and get the grades. But my post-graduate degree was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Katie

          Maybe that’s what you have to do to get a post-graduate degree in the humanities or something. Just take classes and get the grades. But my post-graduate degree was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done.

          Amen!  STEM programs are significantly more difficult to complete than non-STEM programs. My ex is also a STEM undergraduate and graduate degree holder.

          I have been a musician for most of my life.  A larger percentage of STEM graduates play a musical instrument than any other non-musician discipline.  Why?  Because playing a musical instrument requires one to use both hemispheres of the brain simultaneously.  That is why children who learn to play a musical instrument at a young age tend to do better in school.

        4. Marika

          Katie 

          I meant maybe it’s a STEM thing to be so highly selective in dating preferences? It’s not something a lot of us have come across.

          Of course post grad is very difficult. I also consider composing music, building a house, running a workshop, painting a landscape etc etc difficult. I just don’t personally think having a post grad degree sets you apart or make you so special that you could only date another person with the same.

        5. Sum Guy

          This is pretty low Marika,

          Maybe it’s a STEM thing? I think both YAG and Sum Guy are in STEM. Stacy2 too? Who was also pretty elitist.”

          none of the reasons I’ve given for people in my experience preferring people (not a requirement) with a comparable education level for compatibility and connection reasons (insecurities and an inability to discuss/share insights that creates distance, paraphrase) make them elitist; yet it all  gets twisted to this…

          These gatherings where women are all sitting around getting bizarrely specific about who they would / wouldn’t date from an educational perspective sound like something out of the Big Bang Theory

          You got the wrong image of how these things come up.   No one said anything about bizarre specifics or anything that would lead to that.    It’s a funny image though, but not reality.  Assuming you are now not just trolling me…

          You have never been with a group of friends where dating comes up, invariably about how hard it is?

          A comments like, “I can’t seem to find an educated guy,” Someone replies why do you need that. They respond “I’ve dated guys who aren’t as educated as me and they get intimidated or can’t really talk to them.”  (pretty much what N said) and the group agrees.  Is that really so bizarre or specific.   Do you think that is all the conversations are about or the only one in a room?

          It’s the exact same kind of stuff people bring up on this blog, except here people do get specific and sometimes bizarre.

           

          I’m not saying all women value advanced education, or even that all women with advanced degrees do.  I’m not explaining women to you.  I’m saying in over 20 years I have known and heard a lot of women who have expressed such preferences (I believe them) and never in real life have I heard the opposite.

          I hear it here, I believe you and other posters that what you value and your experience is different from my experience.

          Your mischaracterizations of my posts make me think you somehow just can’t grasp that reasonable decent people could come to a different conclusion about the value of advanced education than you have.   So they must be bizarre, they must be elitist.  Is that really how you view these people?    That’s an unfair assessment if it is.

           

          How about this for an unfair assessment…

          I hope you don’t rely on a one-dimensional characterization of people with advanced degrees as only being “book smart” implying they can’t actually do or make anything.  Someone alert the tech companies, we all know getting the theory right is meaningless mental masturbation.    I mean unless you want modern communications, the ability to synthesize life saving drugs, or a chance in hell of shooting down a missile from North Korea.

          Nah, only geeks want that stuff, must be those lectures at MIT, what a waste of time, they should have been out learning something “street smart” like, like say how to beat the casino and win at black jack…oh wait.

          Or that just because you work with you mind more than your hands, or went to classes, you are less likely to have “emotional intelligence, charm, being a good listener, being funny and creative etc.”  Probably the opposite as all those traits correlate highly with intelligence and most people with advanced degrees who work with them (not possessing just some internet piece of paper) are highly intelligent.

           

          My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that women with advance degrees who are doing and making, prefer a man with an advanced education (a sexy fit one of course) because they can share their work with him, and he may actually be a great sounding board to help her come up with better ideas, she won’t have to simplify it for him.

          He is also much more likely to put up with her “book smarts,” her lack of “street smarts” (hope she can get him there) and her general lack of charm, emotional intelligence, humor and ability to listen (I mean compared with women who didn’t spend all that time in a lecture hall).    Of course, he is a social misfit as well, and probably not a real man, so what does he know.

  16. 16
    N

    I dated both types– a physician/executive and a self-employed/business owner without college degree. Both are high earners and physically attractive (full set of hair and fit). I would say the chemistry on both is between 8/9.

    The difference lies in compatibility, the way we communicate and resolve issues, future plans (both likes to get married), shared values and goals, temperament, desire to be a better partner, emotional availability and most importantly, the way they make me feel. Both made me feel respected, desired, adored, admired and I made them feel the same. I find this very important in relationship.

    I’m now building a life and future with the former. Why I ended it with the latter– his insecurities and our inability to discuss/share insights created so much distance. It’s not so much about not having a college education but it is one’s willingness to be open-minded and to learn and experience the world and people in it.

    A man’s education, income and retirement plan pales in comparison to his character, temperament, how he treats his woman and his passion for life. Cheers!

  17. 17
    Marika

    Sum Guy & Jeremy 

    OT (over thinking)!!

    I was being facetious. My comment about strippers was a response to YAGs ongoing assertions that women are all gagging for guys with PhDs (who are tall).

    Oh, and apparently he’s spoken to every woman he’s ever met about this! Sure…

    Emily:

    Fire fighters, baby!!

    1. 17.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,
      Fire fighters, baby!!
      Isn’t Channing Tatum doing a show in Vegas now? A man with a career in front of him.  🙂   What’s that word that YAG always uses? Primal?  🙂   Women’s response to firefighters is … primal.

    2. 17.2
      Sum Guy

      Marika,

      Well that is good, hard to tell in a forum, but your point being….muscles, package, life of danger/action/physicality (firefighters), masculine drive?

      You really got to give me an age range here, as all the firefighters I know my age (45-50) are really overweight.

      Hey nothing wrong if that is how you filter, …I just view this “Learn How Chemistry Has Always Led You Into the Wrong Relationships…” as the whole point about site and blog, and a lot of what I’m seeing here is focusing solely on chemistry and physicality.

      Evan probably has statistics on this, on if educated women are looking for educated men, if it is harder to find that “work with his hands” guy that is good with a woman who is more educated and financially successful than him, or harder to an educated guy who is also virile guy with a masculine drive.

      I’d think you’d choose more on compatibility (the non-physical stuff) and just use the photos as cute/hunky enough or not.   It’s hard for me to grasp that if you have a graduate degree yourself that you would consider it a negative if a man did as well.

      1. 17.2.1
        Marika

        Sum Guy

        Where’s your sense of humour…😉Firefighters are the ultimate female fantasy. Don’t ruin it for us!!!

        I don’t think you’ve been on this blog for long? YAG has a long history of trying to mansplain women to women. It’s getting really old.

        I personally don’t care if a man has a graduate degree. It’s neither a positive or a negative. If he wears it as a badge of honour, if he’s cocky and thinks he knows everything because of it, it’s a negative. Same with PhDs. Further, PhDs conjure up images of every stuffy, pit stained, tedious professor we had at university. Even though I know logically, that’s an unfair stereotype. I’d give them a chance, but it’s not what we’re all chasing.

        What YAG doesn’t seem to realise is: a massive turn off, which transcends height & education for women, is men who think they know everything.

         

        1. Sum Guy

          hi Marika

          guess I’ve been here a couple months

          I forget, are you outside the US?  You say university, a very English or POME way of saying it.  In the US we generally say college.

          No one likes a know it all, or a Mr. Right All the Time.

          In my experience in the US you are orders of magnitude more likely to get a man without a college degree believing he knows everything, and letting the woman know she knows nothing, than one who has a graduate degree, especially if it is a STEM or legal degree, not so much MBA.   Arrogant MDs are a world all there own.

           

          The pit stained proffessor, never had one.  They were all rather spry if old and fit if young.  I had a couple real introvert, shy ones but scarily brilliant, had a couple work hard play harder ones, among others.   Surfers, rock climbers, ultimate frisbee players…just as active or more so than the student body.

          Known many a professor turned entrepreneur, keeping the professor gig  of course.

           

          Probably language, but have no problem with people viewing their graduate degree as a badge of honor It usually takes hard work n dedication to get them, you just can’t buy it.

          Different if people brag and think it makes them better than others, yes you know more about your area of study but that’s it.   I’ve only seen that unfounded hubris from MBAs, MDs, literature PhDs, and psychologist/psychiatrists; well and litigators but it’s more they are mercenary ass hats and they are so easily dealt with.

           

          Being a master tradesmen is also a badge of honor and the plumbers,  electricians and carpenters I know are rightly proud of what they do    Frankly, I consider hard work and dedication to a honest living (physical or intellectual) a badge of honor, degrees and licenses are one way we recognize that.

           

          I came here when still actively seeking and OLDing, as always interested in the perspective of the women I look for: smart, educated and successful.  Also to share my views on what I, at least one of the kind of guys I think they are looking for, think and respond to.   So many dating “rules” put me off.

          Like the conversation n blog so keep coming back.

           

          Promise won’t ruin your fire fighter fantasy, just don’t ruin my librarian one 😉   I can say the sexy geek goddess fantasy is very real.   Unicorns do exist, you just got to be a magic man to even see them let alone catch them 🙂

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Sum Guy

          just don’t ruin my librarian one

          Oh man, sexy librarian, now were are talking.  That is one of my favorite role plays. 🙂

        3. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Oh man, sexy librarian, now were are talking.  That is one of my favorite role plays. 🙂

          I know a lot of men have this fantasy. Explain it to me. I don’t think a lot of women have the fantasy of a male librarian. Too passive. What not sexy female cop or female dominatrix? Or something like that? In a lot of female fantasies, the man is taking over

        4. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          What not sexy female cop or female dominatrix?

          Because most men prefer to be dominant.

          The sexy librarian is kind of a Clark Kent/Superman thing only in female form.  On the outside, she is prim and proper with her hair up in a bun and glasses.  She is dressed conservatively,  but underneath lies sexy lingerie complete with garter belt and stockings.  The glasses come off.  The hair comes down, and it becomes an OMG, meow moment.  The sexy librarian is the essence of femininity.  It is like unwrapping the present that a man wished he received at Christmas.  I need to stop thinking about it. 🙂

        5. Emily, the original

          YAG,
          Because most men prefer to be dominant.
          I don’t think all time, though. I worked for a short time in law enforcement and had to wear a uniform. I can not tell you how many times a man asked me to frisk or arrest him. And who gets arrested or frisked “gently” and “with feminine energy” ?
          The sexy librarian is kind of a Clark Kent/Superman thing only in female form. 
          The Superman thing does nothing for me. Blech. A man in tights.

        6. Sum Guy

          What YAG said, but maybe with out the clothing specific, I just don’t find most stockings or the whole garter thins sexy at all

           

          I think it’s more about she is a good girl who want to be bad, and your just the man who brings it out in her.

           

          Emily:

          “What not sexy female cop or female dominatrix?”

          Not my thing, not at all.   Now one where the woman may be the one “in charge” but seeking you out/seducing you fro your studly virtues…

          In a lot of female fantasies, the man is taking over

          In a lot of male fantasies to.

        7. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          I can not tell you how many times a man asked me to frisk or arrest him.

          To each their own, could readily believe this because can see it as not something most men would share with other men.
          The Superman thing does nothing for me. Blech. A man in tights.”

          How about kilts?  When I wear my tight fitting insulated running/skiing “pants”, basically tights, always have gotten a lot of excitement from my girlfriends.  Guess it is what you put in them.

        8. Gala

          @YAG:

          Because most men prefer to be dominant.

          I found that a lot of men like to reverse the polarity vs. their real life situation. A lot of men who command real power in real life frequently seek out dominatrices. Men who don’t have real power in real life have to catch up in the bedroom.

        9. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,
          What YAG said, but maybe with out the clothing specific, I just don’t find most stockings or the whole garter thins sexy at all
          Let me have the number of your doctor. We need to make sure everything is plugged in!  🙂
          Now one where the woman may be the one “in charge” but seeking you out/seducing you fro your studly virtues…
          That’s essentially what I meant. I certainly don’t want to be in charge all time, but I wouldn’t want to be with someone who always has to be in charge. That speaks to being a bit controlling and not being able to let go.
          In a lot of male fantasies too.
          That’s interesting. As a general rule, I don’t find a lot of men to be super dominant. I’m not saying that they aren’t picking up the phone and pursuing who they like, but that the first move/sex stuff usually takes a woman making it very, very clear she is open to it.

        10. Emily, the original

          Gala,

          A lot of men who command real power in real life frequently seek out dominatrices. 

          Yes. They get tired of having to be in control and in charge all the time.

        11. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          How about kilts?  When I wear my tight fitting insulated running/skiing “pants”, basically tights, always have gotten a lot of excitement from my girlfriends.  Guess it is what you put in them.

          No, not my thing, but I’ve heard a lot of other women like it.

        12. Sum Guy

          Sure Gala,  That’s the myth anyways.   Based on antidotal “studies” or pop articles.   How flawed is such a conclusion based on the data that can be had…let me count the ways.

           

          First, this myth seems to be more a rationalization/justification why a person who has to have power outside the bedroom wants to completely cede it inside.

           

          I think we would really need a honest, open survey of the sex industry, from high paid dominatrix (who obviously is out of the realm of the poorer guy) to streetwalker.   Who knows, joe average may be asking for the cuff me/whip me treatment as much as the CEO.  Income and status verification could be tough.

          I suspect that we hear about powerful men and dominatrixes because it is sensational.    It’s not so sensational that the CEO likes to tie up his dates, or use his position of dominance to harass them into sex…can’t see harassing someone into being your dominatrix.

          Likewise, can also see a CEO who wants to be dominated less likely to get that at home, more likely to seek a prostitute, more likely his wife will understand…it’s not infidelity…it’s a sickness…and thus more likely to redeem themselves through therapy if caught (hence case study).

          In contrast, if he wanted a submissive wife, that is what the trophy wife is for, or if he got caught going to a prostitute or mistress for regular ‘ole sex, it’s not a sickness he’s just a cheater.  So no therapist who can write up a case study on it, like anyone would care or read about, powerful CEO has vanilla, guy dominant sex outside his marriage.   Boring.

           

          I’ve actually never heard a story on what the average john is asking the average hooker for.  People just don’t care what the average person is doing.  Also boring.

          When I think of the headlines, most powerful men when caught are caught with pretty basic sex stuff.

           

          I also suspect it has less to do with their current power level, and more to do with what drives them to seek power.  There are a lot of messed-up personalities that are driven to seek power who need to have power over others, its not an easy road and one rarely taken for a higher purpose.

          I would say those in power hold a greater % of messed-up personalities and outright sociopaths than the general population…and sociopaths are all about dominance.

           

          Isn’t the old myth that power holding men bring their dominant  power to the bedroom as well and isn’t it one of the things that make them alpha and alluring to women?

        13. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          A lot of men who command real power in real life frequently seek out dominatrices.

          A lot of men who command power in real life are also hardcore doms when it comes to BDSM.  Those who command power in real life, but want to be dominated in the bedroom tend to have mommy issues.

        14. Yet Another Guy

          @Gala

          I would like to add that the guys with power who seek out a dominatrix also tend to not be able to handle the pressure of leadership.  They are great managers, but piss poor leaders.  Having received actual leadership versus management training, I can tell you that management and leadership are not the same thing.  Leadership is about setting an example worthy of emulation.  It is about getting people to want to follow you. It means putting the welfare of your subordinates first.  Very few senior manages exhibit true leadership skills. Those who do have subordinates who will follow them through the gates of Hell.  It is a pull versus push situation.

        15. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          Isn’t the old myth that power holding men bring their dominant  power to the bedroom as well and isn’t it one of the things that make them alpha and alluring to women?

          It depends. Just because someone is successful/dominant/powerful  in one are of life doesn’t mean he’ll be that way in others.

        16. Gala

          @Sum Guy

          It’s not so sensational that the CEO likes to tie up his dates, or use his position of dominance to harass them into sex

          really? I beg to differ. I think a CEO who does that ^^ will be working on his resignation letter and hiring lawyers and PR people the next day while hiding under the bed…

          On the other hand, you are correct that any scientific evidence on this is probably scant. Given what professional dominatrices charge (google it) it is fair  to assume their clients aren’t poor. But exactly how large that market is is unknown. I personally only have a small sample size of 2 with such requests, which conformed to the stereotype as it is.

        17. Sum Guy

          Hi Gala,

          I personally only have a small sample size of 2 with such requests, which conformed to the stereotype as it is.”

          It’s not so much a stereotype as the current myth.   It’s not so long ago the stereotype was different in my recollection.  I’m pretty sure you know n=2 is too small to draw any conclusions especially not enough to say frequently.

          Just for example, of US presidents (I think by any definition the have real power) that have gotten caught, or it is well known they fooled around none of that seems to be seeking to be dominated, if any thing the reverse.   From Bill and his penchant for tarts, so to speak, JFK and Marilyn Monroe, Trump and his models (but who really knows there).

        18. Sum Guy

          Gala

          I beg to differ. I think a CEO who does that ^^ will be working on his resignation letter and hiring lawyers and PR people the next day while hiding under the bed…”

          I wish that was the case….eventually, maybe if enough pressure is brought to bear.  How many times have we seen these things come out then learn they have been going on for years, and we see the company cover up, down play and not really change…until the next scandal.

        19. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily

          It depends. Just because someone is successful/dominant/powerful  in one are of life doesn’t mean he’ll be that way in others.”

          I’m just saying the new myth that men with power frequently seek to be dominated is just as much BS.  Just because a person is powerful/successful/dominant doesn’t mean he wants the opposite in bed.

        20. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          I’m just saying the new myth that men with power frequently seek to be dominated is just as much BS.  Just because a person is powerful/successful/dominant doesn’t mean he wants the opposite in bed.

          True, but you can’t make a sweeping statement about what powerful men want. There are dominatrixes out there so obviously there is some interest in it and you don’t really know what someone is like until you get them alone in a room. I don’t see what difference it makes from your end, though. Or why the firefighter comment caused a protracted conversation of what blue collar men like/don’t like/want/provide, etc. A lot of women like firefighters. A lot of men like younger women. Ok

        21. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          True, but you can’t make a sweeping statement about what powerful men want.”

          I’m not, I’m very much not.

          I’ve been responding to this sweeping generalization by Gala with another generalization to illustrate neither is or ever was valid,

          I found that a lot of men like to reverse the polarity vs. their real life situation. A lot of men who command real power in real life frequently seek out dominatrices.

          A lot of men with real power…and frequently sounds pretty sweeping, but not so when Gala mentions this is based on two out of two men.

          I’m sure part of all the responses is also due to this:

          Men who don’t have real power in real life have to catch up in the bedroom.”

          Implies that if you like to be dominant in the bedroom then you must not have real power in real life…I do hate the adjective real…it’s such a wiggle word.

           “I don’t see what difference it makes from your end, though.”

          It doesn’t, except this is a blog about understanding men so when broad generalizations are made about men, that appear off I sometimes come in with my view.

          Any sweeping generalization, especially one that is likely false and puts a gender in a negative character box is not good for anyone:  powerful/successful men = want to be dominated = compensating; men who want to be more dominant =  powerless/unsuccessful = compensating.

          No idea which I like least, but know I don’t like the concept or implication that because I am gender male my sexuality is a compensation for anything.  It’s also BS which if believed will only make it harder for the stated audience of this blog to get what they want.

           

          My comments are always with the stated audience and the stated goal in mind.   They are likely completely useless and counter productive to women who are not strong and successful and who are not looking for a committed LTR.

          I really try to stick to talking about men, from a man’s perspective and personal experience.  I’m always willing to share the basis of that experience so people can judge the applicability of what I say.

          Although I do hate sweeping generalizations in general, and do enjoy providing counter examples so we can all check our assumptions.

           

          Or why the firefighter comment caused a protracted conversation of what blue collar men like/don’t like/want/provide, etc. A lot of women like firefighters.”

          Well it’s just because of the above, the purpose of this blog.  Women seeking a LTR and how to look past chemistry.

          It really comes down to the comments about seeking out men because they trigger that fantasy image: of the firefighter, the guy who works with his hands and that these men are particularly adept at providing other qualities.

          So hey, I’m a guy.  I know guys just like that, I come from blue collar land, moved into white collar and board room land, to entrepreneur land, with a few detours and side quests here and there.   I can share my view of these desperate parts of man-world and have a first hand knowledge of what at least some of these guys want and are like.

          In a way, I speak for men like me because we seek strong, smart, successful women our age…Evan’s very clientele.  My hubris makes me think that at least some of those women would like to meet a guy like me, and thus they would like to understand where I’m coming from.   It’s a win for me as I would like that too if I ever am back dating again.

           

          So back to the fantasies, I don’t respond to them as hey lets talk fantasies and have fun with it, let men know what we like to fantasize about (believe me we all know about the fire fighter thing, that’s half the reason guys become them).

          Heck go for it I say if you want that sexy fireman.  I’ve said elsewhere from my perspective I won’t hold that history against you.   I’m far from a saint or prude.

           

          You’ll always get a counter example from me because fantasy is all about chemistry, even worse it blinds us to what a person is really like which is important for a LTR.

          It takes all those attractive elements of the fantasy, in Evans Tip #1, and magically and falsely converts them into Important elements. It’s a recipe for LTR disaster.

          I think that is the very point of this blog, avoiding such thinking.

          You’re fooling yourself if you  think blue collar guys have any more lock on Important qualities than white collar guys.  You’re fooling yourself as well if you think blue collar guys have fewer worse qualities than white collar guys.  Admittedly, white collar guys and blue collar guys have different worse qualities, based on statistics.

           

          Yet no matter what, I’m thinking women this site is directed to would like a fit, confident man, who treats them with respect, and as we are talking strong, successful, educated women on this site…that respect means viewing women as equals economically, intellectually, and socially.

          I know those kind of guys that got all that above, I’ve known guys who got all the Attractive qualities and none of the Important ones.   Guys from all sorts of socio-economic strata.  So figure I’ve something useful to add.

          I’m certainly not talking about women’s dating experiences.  SO all the guys you have been with a certain background have had a certain flaw, I’m here to help you find those other guys with that same background but without that flaw.

          I’m trying to provide pointers from my experience on how to get those guys and how to avoid the players (the ones who have all the Attractive qualities but not of the Important ones).

           

          I’m not here to tell women what they want or like, you tell me, and I’ll tell you (if I can) where a guy like that, who is like me, is and wants and responds best to.  You also may not like a guy like me so I’ be happy to tell you also how to avoid me and easy ways to put me off.

           

          So on that note, it does seem much of this thread has just become a fantasy discussion fest and amusing generalizations, not really directed to helping get to that LTR.  I’ll just leave that stuff be.

    3. 17.3
      Gala

      Firefighters are the best. Possibly even better than airline pilots!

      1. 17.3.1
        Marika

        Gala

        An airline pilot who volunteers as a regional fire fighter on the side…..okay, I need a few minutes… 😉

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          Firefighters are fine, but my big fantasy is Rudolph Valentino. A silent film star in the 20s. He throws me on the back of his horse, rides me off into the desert and leers at me with a slight hint of menace. (This is actually the plot his big film, “The Shiek.”) And then he proceeds to do stuff to me I never heard of …  🙂

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          And then he proceeds to do stuff to me I never heard of … 

          Lol! That’s my girl. 🙂

           

        3. Sum Guy

          acch oh poor Jamie Fraser,

  18. 18
    Marika

    Clearly I’ve touched a nerve, Sum Guy.

    Never meant to offend you. Apologies.

    I’m just trying to understand why none of the numerous women Emily, Stacy and I know have this preference and all the women you know do. That’s all.

    1. 18.1
      Sum Guy

      Thanks Marika,

      I’m curious about the disparity in experience too.

      I also want to make sure I don’t get on someone’s list when dating who even thinks for one second that my advanced degrees, I’ve a couple, connote a negative.   A neutral is even problematic, a possible positive is good.   I really mean that, I don’t want someone deciding to “overlook” my advanced degree because of my money, status, lifestyle and fitness.  I’d never have expected that of a woman with an advanced degree herself until this thread.   I’ve come to realize any negative view of my advanced education is a complete deal-breaker for me in the world of romantic relationships.

       

      The negative STEM stereotypes do touch a nerve.  Stereotypes, turn into prejudice, turn into laws of marginalization.   They offend because they are so illogical and have so little basis in fact.   Which I could go on and on about.

       

      1. 18.1.1
        Gala

        Look if I had to guess, women in general don’t care that much about advanced degrees, outside of a small group of hyper intellectuals who see it as a massive turn on, it’s like their **thing**. Women who you know may fall into this category, but more likely they are just saying it to you because they know how proud you are of your degrees and achievements in that area, how important it is to you so they naturally want to say something positive and pleasant to you. Basically, they can read you and have social skills.

        To me, in order to for me to be attracted to a guy, it really helps if  he’s good at something I am not good at. And I already have advanced degrees (plural) and I am pretty smart already so I am unlikely to be impressed by book smarts. While certain level of intelligence is needed of course, I am more attracted to other things. Can safely land a Boeing? That’s hot! (I actually did date a pilot).  Can build a spreadsheet and know th  Meh. So can I, what else you got? Etc.

        1. Sum Guy

          Gala,

          My post ate long so will sum it up.   The vast vast majority women I’ve heard express the preference for men as educated as them (advanced degree) did not say it specifically to me or say in response to being asked directly.  I gave examples of how it typically came up.   And nowhere am I talking about women that n general.

          everyone of my examples was not about what was said to me personally.  I already admitted that my dates are a self selecting sub-set

          guess what, I never bring up my degrees in dates, all I click in OLD is advanced degree, I down play my status and money, I can only vaguely talk about my work due to confidentiality but also tend to avoid that

          what I am proud of is my character, how I treat people, how I live, what I’ve done to make the world a better place, what I want to do because that is the kind of person I’m looking for

          “hyper-intellectuals”sounds like a disparagement as does it is their “thing” like it’s a fetish,  yet another way to characterize people or other then safely ignore their world view as aberrant because it doesn’t match your own

          They are no more educated than the vast majority of doctors, scientist, lawyers and MBAs in this world

           

      2. 18.1.2
        Katie

        “The negative STEM stereotypes do touch a nerve. “

        This outlook is not representative of the majority of women, and I think you know that. In general, I think people with STEM degrees ARE respected for them. “Engineer” is the default, safe option for men’s professions in OLD. When asked, I’ve never talked about my academic achievements with someone and felt like the person responded dismissively.  I doubt very much that men have that happen very often either if it’s a STEM field. When speaking generalities, I think it’s more likely that a dude will be dismissed for a MBA degree than a STEM degree. Either would be unfair though, and only going to hurt the person who DOES the dismissing.

        It’s been said before, but people are much more judgemental online than they are in real life. I think it’s not a matter of most people being judgey. I think the vast, vast majority of people are interesting and open-minded. Not necessarily all compatible with me, but INTERESTING because they are ALL different from me and better than me at SOMETHING, so I always have something to learn from them.

        I think most people feel this way to an extent, but online there is so little information to go off of that the information that IS there can vastly misrepresent the person, especially if the writer is not a skilled writer, and the reader is not skilled at OLD. I’m convinced OLD is a skill. For example, I identify very much by my open-mindedness, but I never would have met my amazing partner via OLD because I would have read some facts that would have caused me to dismiss him – Overweight, far away (VERY) and less educated. But he’s the best romantic thing that’s ever happened to me<3

         

        If I’m ever dating again, I hope I never, ever go back to the way I WAS doing it. And again, I was pretty open-minded to begin with. OLD is a skill. There’s certainly a skill in attracting people, but there’s ALSO a skill in picking people too. The latter skill is often neglected.

         

        1. Sum Guy

          Thanks Katie,

          well said

          any stereotype of a group I’m a member of is always going to touch a nerve, but stereotypes in general touch a nerve

        2. Marika

          Katie said

          “When speaking generalities, I think it’s more likely that a dude will be dismissed for a MBA degree”

          Really, why?

      3. 18.1.3
        Marika

        All good, Sum Guy.

        Unfortunately it is the case that some people will find your advanced degrees a negative. Some people will also stereotype you due to your STEM background. It’s just a fact of life. I had to remove my job title from my online profile for various reasons I won’t go into here, as many men found it uncomfortable. I found it a better strategy to be a bit vague about what I do so as not to rule people out before we even meet. That being said, it’s pretty clear you need to be with someone highly educated who understands what you do (that’s less important to me), so it will likely be fine if people rule themselves out before getting to know you. I’m sorry this is a bit confronting, but it’s human nature to categorise people.

        The other thing is that this has come up before. In a post about ‘hypergamy’ YAG claimed not only that women won’t ‘marry down’ education-wise, also that a man with lower education levels wouldn’t even contact a woman with a higher degree online. Even when a group of us assured him neither of those things were remotely true, he still continues to make these claims. Annoying.

        You kinda weighed in on this.

        1. Katie

          “Some people will also stereotype you due to your STEM background. It’s just a fact of life.”

           

          If you’re suggesting that YOU stereotype based on that I think that makes you look insecure.

          If you’re suggesting that most OTHER people in non-STEM fields stereotype others based on that I think you’re wrong.

          “That being said, it’s pretty clear you need to be with someone highly educated who understands what you do …”

          That’s not clear to me at all. All I got from it is that he values intellectual curiosity.

           

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Marika,

          Its certainly good they rule me out, that’s OK, it’s the nature of looking for people    I just want to avoid a situation where I’m ruled in despite them thinking an advanced degree is negative IF they also have an advanced degree.

          That is, if we go along and one day they say “You know when I saw you had an advanced degree it was kind of a negative but you’re not like that I’m glad I went out with you.”  If that happens, it is over.

          for me it’s three crucial things, number 2 is the big one, the surprise

          1. Values    I value knowledge and never consider it a negative.

          2. Character   It’s hypocrisy to me for someone with an advanced degree themselves to think negative stereotypes about people with such degrees; it’s sexism to think as well it’s OK for a woman to have such a degree but a negative for a man.   You could substitute race, religion as well and get the same result.

          3. Politics   Negative stereotypes of the educated in the US today, to me, are politically motivated.   If you are OK with this anti-intellectualism for political reasons, fine, but those are not my politics.   For example, I can readily see someone’s reasons for exiting the Paris Accord for economic reasons, but I consider basing such an exit on ignoring the science and denigrating the scientists disingenuous at best.

      4. 18.1.4
        Alex

        @Sum Guy

        I’m in a STEM field and I have a master’s degree. Unfortunately, the stereotypes are there for a reason. In addition to the nerdiness, if a guy works in my field he will usually ask some questions about what I do and then spend an hour explaining what I’m doing wrong. Since reading Evan’s blog, I’ve learned this might be an effort to impress me, but it’s still very frustrating for me.

         

        The awesome thing for you, though, is that you can get around this stereotype because you are fit, so you don’t look like the average STEM guy. If you do t talk about work too much and you ask thoughtful questions and listen to your dates, I think you’ll reap the benefits of both worlds. Women won’t turn you down outright if you show some social skills. After that, they will definitely see your degrees as positives.

        1. Emily, the original

          Alex,

          I’m in a STEM field and I have a master’s degree. Unfortunately, the stereotypes are there for a reason. In addition to the nerdiness,

          I’m in a non-STEM field and a good number of the guys in my graduate program were fairly nerdy.

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Alex,

          I’d caution that because he is a STEM Guy and he behaves a certain way that does not confirm the stereotype; rather it is more a matter of confirmation bias.

          I’ve met guys like that when in Science, they do it to guys too.  And I’m the guy who was always top of his class    Your right it is likely more an attempt to impress you than talking down to you

          That very behavior though, where I’ve seen it the most (highest percentage but still not a majority) is amongst Sales.  Seen it in law firms but hard to tease out as there is the whole hierarchy thing

          Seen it as a lower percentage in Finance but when done, much nastier

          In a GC role I’ve seen that sexual harassment was most prevelant among Sales, and a whole other raft of bad behaviors    Yet these people were the best looking, most charming, social adept and confident in the companies  (kinda of why they got hired)  The most insidious and devious harassment and secret campaign to undermine I saw in Finance (but very rare)

          Now lawyers, blunt unwanted advances but generally just a one time ask with no retaliation, so over the line but they step back, they are lawyers after all   The ones with the worse reputations invariably litigators  again though a very small percentage

          So what I’m trying to say is the stereotype you describe is not just a STEM one, it’s bad social behavior that is actually more present in other areas  percentage wise

           

          Thats the thing with stereotypes, they have (or once had) a kernel of truth, and you’ll find a member that fits them, you may even have some loose general statistics   Yet confirmation bias is high, deviations from the stereotype are consider exceptions, or the person is explained out of the group, and deviations are more likely to be ignored than confirmations

           

          What really amazes me are people from groups that have traditionally been stereotyped and disadvantaged because of it, perpetuating negative stereotypes of other groups

          What’s more so, how one would be socially reviled if a stereotype was brought out based on race, but not profession

          So for every STEM physical stereotype I’ve seen I can give at least one who fits more the athlete stereotype, but most are just somewhere in the middle    Just like most of the populace

          The ” stereotypes” that I do see, really have to do with the nature of your job, what gets you hired is

          Your in sales you need to be a good superficial talker n charmer not take no for an answer, an athlete you need to be in good shape, a STEM field you need to be intelligent, from Finance you need to have incredible organization and attention to detail, etc   Some profession do attract more introverts than others yet one person’s outgoing is another’s crass, etc  One person’s confidence is another’s cocky arrogance

           

          Outside of that, all the other traits physical, social, intellectual, character, have the same mix I’ve observed elsewhere.   It’s that when we see one that doesn’t fit it’s an exception and when we see one that does it’s a confirmation.  Instead, when you see ones that don’t fit you should really question the stereotype.

           

          I dont fit the physical, social, confidence stereotype of the STEM, and I know many STEM guys like me.   My fitness etc is not just out of the ordinary for STEM but pretty much the male population my age.

          Lack of confidence and lack of social skills seem to be the defining feature of men in OLD, across the spectrum if what I read on the internet is correct.    🙂

        3. Sum Guy

          PS: I go on about stereotypes because they are insidious, divisive and serve no one any good

           

           

        4. Alex

          @Sum Guy

          I totally agree with everything you said. Which is also why I tend to be suspicious of men in finance, law and sales as well. Obviously, this narrows my pool of options considerably, so I’m working on that.

          I think some of these professions tend to reward the negative behavior men can exhibit (not that they always do) so that’s why there are stereotypes. It’s the nature of the beast, as far as dating goes, but I just wanted to support what some of the other ladies were saying. YAG (and some other guys I’ve seen on here) seem to think women can only be happy with a tall PhD CEO who makes $250k plus and also looks like a movie star. Highly educated men can seem like egg heads, high earners can seem like workaholics etc. There isn’t one single trait that all women will agree is great in all circumstances. Except maybe being a firefighter 😉

        5. Alex

          @Sum Guy

          “PS: I go on about stereotypes because they are insidious, divisive and serve no one any good”

          I actually think they DO serve a purpose…unfortunately the world is changing and old stereotypes tend to do more harm than good. But they can be a great way of making a decision with little information. You stereotype women when you say most of them would like you to pay for a date. It’s pretty helpful to know that, right? The trick is to know when an assumption won’t serve you, and I’ve found that to be pretty difficult.

        6. Emily, the original

          Alex,

          YAG (and some other guys I’ve seen on here) seem to think women can only be happy with a tall PhD CEO who makes $250k plus and also looks like a movie star. Highly educated men can seem like egg heads, high earners can seem like workaholics etc. There isn’t one single trait that all women will agree is great in all circumstances. Except maybe being a firefighter 😉

          Firefighters do seem to create a universal lady boner!  🙂   It must be the virility and masculinity.

          You know, some women actually like egg heads. I mean, Marilyn Monroe married Arthur Miller. Look at the men sex goddess Jean Harlow married. Father-figure, erudite, gentlemanly. She wasn’t going for Mr. Universe.

        7. Alex

          @Emily

          Really good point! There’s definitely a lid for every pot. I never understood the idea that there weren’t enough men (or women) to go around, cause there are over 7 billion people now.

        8. Emily, the original

          Alex,

          I never understood the idea that there weren’t enough men (or women) to go around, cause there are over 7 billion people now.

          There aren’t enough firefighters to go around. That’s our issue. Some of us may need to start looking into the volunteer firefighter units.     🙂

      5. 18.1.5
        Yet Another Guy

        @Sum Guy

        The negative STEM stereotypes do touch a nerve.  Stereotypes, turn into prejudice, turn into laws of marginalization.   They offend because they are so illogical and have so little basis in fact.   Which I could go on and on about.

        People are quite surprised to discover that I am a) a military veteran and b) an advanced degree-holding computer scientist and engineer. Why? Because people are quick to judge a book by its cover.  Those who saw the photo that I posted know that I am not only fit, but also still quite muscular for a 56-year-old man.  That is thanks to being a hardcore bodybuilder when I was younger.  I have also played lead guitar in gigging bands.  My exterior image is so counter to the stereotype that most people would not believe that I am very good at what I do professionally.  I was not born into the lap of luxury.  Nothing was handed to me.  I earned what I have by being smarter and working harder than people from more affluent backgrounds.  That being said, I have never forgotten where I started in life.  The measure of success is not where one currently is in life, but the delta from where one started in life.

    2. 18.2
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      Clearly I’ve touched a nerve, Sum Guy.

      You also brought up firefighters. It’s the male equivalent of mentioning Victoria’s Secret models.    😉

      1. 18.2.1
        Marika

        Hehe, Emily.

        In my defence, I didn’t think it was any secret that fire fighters were high on the sexiness list…!

        It’s the masculinity and strength, but also in the mix is the selflessness / hero thing of saving children from burning buildings…

        1. Emily, the original

          Marika,

          It’s the masculinity and strength, but also in the mix is the selflessness / hero thing of saving children from burning buildings…

          As a person, I think the saving/hero element is to be admired, of course. As a woman, that element doesn’t enter the equation. It’s just the masculinity.

  19. 19
    MilkyMae

    If you want healthy/educated man outside of work/friends/family, join gym that costs more $60 a month and go early in the morning. The men there are probably working professionals.  The men who are watching cnbc or bloomberg probably have disposable income.   Keep in mind that big muscles does not equal big income.

    1. 19.1
      Gala

      That is a good advice with one correction: go after work around 5-7pm. The crowd in the morning is more heavily skewed towards married people with kids, this is the only free time these guys got and they have to be home for dinner. On the other hand unmarried crowd is recovering from the night before in the am, but will hit the gym before going out at night – after work.

      Also, doing triathlons helps. Guys are in shape and can afford training.equipment/travel- so not poor.

  20. 20
    Jeremy

    Regarding the whole dominance in sex being inverse to dominance in life – I find the whole concept amusing.  If our goal from having sex was pleasure, does that mean we don’t have other pleasure in life?  Or is it because we like pleasure in general? Or does it not necessarily relate to other aspects of life?  Is the person who loves sexual pleasure also overweight from eating too much pie, because a goal of pleasure pervades his entire life, or is he emaciated because he has no interest in other pleasures except sex?

     

    These questions are kinda rhetorical.  A person whose sexual goal is domination will seek domination through sex, and a person whose sexual goal is submission will want to submit.  Others with other sexual goals, such as myself, will not be interested in either.  I have no interest in exerting my will over another person, nor do I wish to have the will of another exerted over me.  That ain’t how I get validation, which is my sexual goal, though my other worldly pursuits may or may not provide validation for me.

  21. 21
    Marika

    Katie

    There’s really no need to be so offended. People stereotype blonds, nurses, psychologists, academics etc etc in addition to STEM people (see comments above). I’ve been on the receiving end of many a stereotype. Usually pretty benign.

    Don’t take yourself so seriously.

  22. 22
    Marika

    Sum Guy said :

    “That is, if we go along and one day they say “You know when I saw you had an advanced degree it was kind of a negative but you’re not like that I’m glad I went out with you.”  If that happens, it is over”

    While you’re entitled to your preferences, I find this kind of thinking hard to understand. Imagine you met a lady through friends who didn’t have the educational background you prefer. She’s cute but you rule her out on that basis. Your friends encourage you to give her a go, they think you’ll really hit it off. You spend more time together, you realize you really like her. You end up falling in love. She eventually teasingly asks why it took you so long to ask her out. You tell her, gently but honestly why you had reservations. Should she be offended and dump you?

    Dating is hard enough without taking things so personally. I know people have prejudices/ connotations good & bad about my hair colour, profession, nationality, name, where I grew up etc etc. It’s really not such a big deal. If they’re negative they’ll get past them once they know me, if not we won’t be a match.

    Until we all reach full enlightenment, it’s best to understand that everyone (including ourselves) have some level of prejudice about different things.

    1. 22.1
      Kenley

      I totally agree with you, Marika.   Unfortunately, I think online dating makes it so easy for all of us to dismiss each other for the slightest infraction because tons more people are just a click away.    The funny thing is when we dismiss people, we are totally justified, but when other people dismiss us, they are shallow!!   The fact that people are connecting at all is becoming more and more of a miracle.

  23. 23
    Nissa

    I’m not really getting the distaste I’m seeing for stereotypes. Is it good to get past the stereotypes and get to know the individual? Of course. But stereotypes exist for a good reason – it’s a broad assumption that is mostly true most of the time. It’s a default for what might be until we verify the specific instance.

    For example, I’m blond. Does that define my entire personality? Of course not. Do some of the stereotypes apply? Yes. I consider it quite a complement that I’ve had a number of people blink at me while saying “You’re not what I expected”. That tells me that they are getting to know the real me. And for the record, I’m a yes for both kilts and engineers.

    1. 23.1
      Marika

      Nissa

      A blond & a brunette are jumping off a rock into the sea. The brunette reaches the water first. Why? The blond stopped to ask for directions 😀

      From a fellow blond.

      1. 23.1.1
        Jeremy

        Uh oh. My nerd humour jokes were bad enough, Marika, don’t tempt me with blonde jokes. I had a few that I edited recently, but I can’t read them because my screen is covered with liquid paper. I’m blond too…

        1. Emily, the original

          I’m a blond, too, and people tell me blond jokes. If they’re funny, I laugh.

  24. 24
    Marika

    Emily

    There aren’t enough firefighters to go around. That’s our issue. Some of us may need to start looking into the volunteer firefighter units.

    HAHAHAHA!! Surf life savers?

    Jeremy

    I declare open season on blond jokes! PS: Canadians use the ‘u’ when you write ou words (humour etc)??
    How do you keep a blonde in the shower all day?
    Hand her a bottle of shampoo that says “lather, rinse, repeat”.

    1. 24.1
      Emily, the original

      Marika,

      HAHAHAHA!! Surf life savers?

      I get the firefighter thing, I do. But if I had my first pick, it’d be a musician. Someone who looked like George Michael but was straight. Firefighters might me a bit to clean cut.

    2. 24.2
      Jeremy

      As a Canadian blond, I can’t go ice fishing. Get hit too often by the Zamboni.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *