Passion Vs. Comfort: Do You Have to Have Fireworks to Have a Successful Relationship?
Passion vs. Comfort. This is a post you don’t want to miss, inspired by a discussion on my (500) Days of Summer thread. Here’s the gist of it. Reader Lori writes:
I have been with a man who loves me, and has loved me, as close as one can get to unconditionally for over 13 yrs…. I was never totally madly in love with him, but he knew he wanted to marry me the minute he met me. I married him – BECAUSE he was a great guy in so many ways, minus the sky illuminating fireworks. Don’t get me wrong, intimate moments were always adequate…even pretty damn good at times. But never, well, you know…crazy great. Almost fourteen years later, I remain married and faithful, but with an empty space in my heart. And wondering if I aspired to mediocrity and lost out on the amazing feeling most of us have felt at some time, of true selfless love. I love him….but I’m not ‘in love’ with him. And that is what has happened to EACH AND EVERY married friend I have, (male and female) that married simply because of the reasons you mention… many have strayed, the others are simply living there…yet nobody’s home.
Because if you take as gospel what she says – “passion or bust!” – you might have a long and lonely road ahead of you.
Everyone I know that married because the partner seemed a great choice, would be a great dad, etc. ended up divorced or unhappy. The FEW couples I know who are happily married – still love to hold hands AND ‘make-out’ – THEY married someone they felt intense chemistry for & vice versa…and of EVERY one of the divorced friends, several who are dating but have not found love, only ONE tells me she made the wrong choice leaving. The rest say they would rather be alone, than with someone and lonely.
Please know, I am not a cynic. I have SEEN & BELIEVE IN great love & marriage, but it SHOULD NOT BE treated as a business decision – it sounds great in theory – but it just brings way too much misery for way to many down the road – you better be pretty damn sure you wanna come home to this person, sleep with this person, and walk on the beach holding hands with this person 50 yrs later…because divorce.. from what I have seen… hurts. And living in quiet desperation…hurts.
Listen, I’m a 37-year-old dating coach who’s been married for less than a year. As such, I’m not going to sweep Lori’s points under the rug or deny her 13 years of pain. She feels what she feels, she’s seen what she’s seen, and it’s perfectly valid. In fact, it’s very persuasive.
However, without negating Lori’s take on things, I’d like to try to balance it out a bit. Because if you take as gospel what she says – “passion or bust!” – you might have a long and lonely road ahead of you. And I’d rather you have a happy relationship instead.
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134 Comments »Filed Under Chemistry
Ronnie Ann Ryan - The Dating Coach 1
Evan – I am blown away by your response. You are SO COMPLETELY ON THE MONEY. It’s a shame we are so impacted by the media and movies about what love should be. The “grass is always greener” is a tough mentality to kick. However it is faulty thinking that creates suffering.
A good follow up to your advice is “COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS!” Being grateful with what you have and what is working can sometimes counteract negative mental chatter that makes people feel crummy about their life and choices. If the grass is always greener else where, then you are actually already where the grass is greener according to others!
Lori – count the positives and see how you feel which may help close that empty spot in your heart. Fill it with gratitiude and see where that takes you.
.-= Ronnie Ann Ryan – The Dating Coach’s last blog ….10/1 CT Event Convention for Reinvention Westbrook =-.
Honey 2
I feel like I’m one of the lucky ones, but then again I think it’s because I’m predisposed to feel happy and lucky in all areas (whether I actually am by other people’s standards or not).
But I would suggest that relationships are skill-based as well as emotion-based, and there are a lot of things that you can do to bring zing into a comforting relationship.
Take a class together, learn a new hobby, visit all the crazy touristy things in your hometown that you’ve never been to, travel, move to another city, become vegetarian, join a kickball league, plan surprises for your partner, try new restaurants (especially authentic ethnic cuisine you’ve never had before), have a two-person book club where you read and discuss things you’ve never read before (or take turns sharing your favorites with each other), tell yourself out loud, every day, all of the reasons why you are lucky (there are lots of studies that show that positive out-loud self-talk has a huge impact on how you feel about something – also works really well if you don’t feel especially attractive, this is how I convinced myself I’m gorgeous!), learn more about his love style and yours and how you can best give each other what you need, read erotica or watch porn together, buy (or make up) sex games that lead you to try new things, have an honest conversation about what turns each of you on.
I think it’s easy to say that a relationship doesn’t have the “zha zha zhu” (as Carrie on SATC would say) when at least part of what is happening is that you’ve gotten into a rut with regards to your entire life. This happens to everyone, but there are tons of things you can do to switch things up, as my very short list above shows. Even things that you do “purely” for yourself, such as joining a gym/getting a personal trainer, going back to school for another degree (even if it’s just for fun and not to advance your career), or switching career fields will energize you in ways that give you a new perspective on your partner.
.-= Honey’s last blog ….One Super Important Thing I Learned From Dating Three Chicks At Once =-.
Selena 3
Evan selected certain passages from Lori’s posts to support his position. I’ll submit some others I found particularly poignant.
#15 Basically, I just wanted to put it out there from the womans side of marrrying mr. close to perfect it doesnt come without its pitfalls as i told my husband, he lived his life able to feel what it feels like to feel intense passion for a woman , i will probably never feel the same for a man.
# 24 after 5 yrs of dissecting the issue, aspiring to self awareness w logical choices, there is no perfect answer. Its a choice. Ive chosen a life (truth be told) of acquiescing, w the tradeoff of stability for my children. If it makes any difference to even one young passionate reader, think carefully forever is a really long time to love someone. To live safely, without love and passion, is.. in my experience..a life unlived..
#30 i knew i was not crazy in love w/him, but loved him enough, knew he d be a great dad, handsome etc. never felt intense chemistry, my friends think he’s great, ask jokingly if they can have him if i ever divorced. Before marriage I dated lots, had great boyfriends. At some point, I felt time was right to settle down. wanted kids & he was a good choice. I had no idea of the capacity to love/be loved at that time. If i had a magic wand, id wish to fall in love with him, rather than leave and make him sad. Ive tried everything short of the wand. Without that indescribable passion for another person that little something missing becomes a very big something.
#38 tried counselors & self help short of a magic wand (or hypnosis), you cant force yourself or convince yourself (or anyone else for that matter) to fall in love. To male readers: movie star looks have very little-nothing to do w/ it, ive felt great sparks w/some ok looking men & ended relationships w/handsome, successful men. All my friends agree: it is something you cant put your finger on charisma & chemistry.
So it’s wiser to choose Comfort over Passion because passion fades? It seems that comfort can become less comforting over time as well. So in the end, does it really make a difference which you choose?
Evan Marc Katz 4
Actually, I chose certain passages, Selena, for space purposes – to synopsize what she was saying. But yes, it’s a viable question: does it make a difference which you choose? There are issues with both, as pointed out in The Post-Birthday World and The Paradox of Choice. I think, over 30 years, comfort makes a little more sense, unless you wanna be fighting with your husband when you’re expecting him to drive you to chemo. But reasonable people can disagree. Thanks for your contribution.
Selena 5
Evan, your premise is “…if you take as gospel what she says – “passion or bust!” -you might have a long and lonley road ahead of you. I’d rather you have a happy relationship instead.”
What Lori describes is not something I would exactly call a happy relationship.
And neither marrying for passion or comfort would seem to be any guarantee of having someone driving you to chemo 30 years hence. Fighting or not fighting. ???
JuJu 6
Yeah, I agree with Selena here. Evan, you are arguing a point no one is really disputing – most people on these message boards are quite mature and do realize the importance of overall compatibility.
Only Lori is NOT happy, she does not even want to be with this man, and would rather never have sex with him if that were an option. By what standard is this a good, comfortable marriage?
Evan Marc Katz 7
You’re making this about Lori. It’s not about Lori. She’s just the one who inspired the post. Plenty of people have good marriages that didn’t have fireworks. That’s all.
Midlife Dating Coach Annie Gleason 8
Evan, You’re absolutely right. In my coaching practice, the vast majority of my divorced female clients in their forties and fifties left their husbands to be with a man with whom they felt amazing chemistry. They knew in their hearts that they were leaving a boring, routine marriage to be with their true soulmate.
And, guess what? After six months to a year of reality, these relationships fizzled. And after a couple of years of being alone and dating, most of them wished that they’d worked on putting the sizzle back in their marriage instead of leaving.
You can create passion by being attentive, doing something new together, or flirting in a different way with the one you love. Helen Fisher’s studies show that you can bring chemistry back to a relationship by doing something novel or risky together–whether it’s something as mundane as taking a trip to somewhere you’ve never been to, or as exciting as skydiving.
Lori — it’s really hard for many single women in their forties and fifties. It’s difficult to appreciate how valuable a loving, supportive long term relationship with a good man is until you’ve lost it for good. Passion is easy to find–and lose. Long-term love and compatibility is much more complex and rare.
.-= Midlife Dating Coach Annie Gleason’s last blog ….Why MidLife Men? =-.
Jane 9
I am friends with several people who are having long term relationships. Some began with passion, some not. They don’t look much different after several years although, there seems to be more angst in the ones that began with passion because those folks didn’t really know each other very well– too busy doing other things.
Passion, unless a whole lot of things meld in very specific ways, can be the source of a lot of pain. I don’t think the same can be said for comfort.
There are no guarantees–and no guarantee you would find someone else that would ignite that spark and also want to be committed to you and your children. If it were all that easy we wouldn’t have thousands of people on the online dating sites and we wouldn’t need Evan to steer in this effort to find love. He can’t offer us any guarantees either—- just logical, unadorned good sense.
I’ve seen some people make some really stupid choices for passion and be very sorry later. (uh, one of them would be me) Might the prince arrive? Sure. I wonder what the odds are……..
Selena 10
Maybe you should dig up these people and have them post?
Something like:
“Elyse and I weren’t what you might call ‘passionate’ when we decided to marry. We knew we both wanted a home and family though, and found in each other shared values and mutual respect.”
“Now after 20 yrs. of marriage we are still happy as clams when many of our friends who married for passion have long since divorced.”
“Sex? Well no. That was something we did in the early years in order to have our family. Once we conceived our little Timmy and Janie, we didn’t see the need.”
“Sex really is overrated. Elyse and I enjoy having separate bedrooms, we both sleep more soundly.”
starthrower68 11
Honey @ #2,
You made a HUGE point in your opening line; you are happy in your relationship because you are happy overall in your life.
I think we sometimes go into these situations expecting the other person to GIVE us all the feelings we want to have, when really, those have to come from within ourselves. It’s not so much finding that person we want as BEING that person we want. I think that what we should really be looking for in our relationships is JOY. As Evan says, an intensely passionate relationship is usually fraught with tension and instability. It’s very dramatic knowing that you and the other person could split at any time. Comfort is good to have in a relationship, but I think sometimes comfort makes us very complacent and we don’t put the effort into the relationship that could make all the difference.
I think it would benefit Lori, and others in the same situation to take a look at why they feel empty and unfulfilled. It may not really be the marriage. It might be a matter of doing and finding the things that bring you joy, be it a relationship with God, a favorite hobby, etc. Ronnie is spot on about having a heart of gratitude.
So maybe finding a person with whom we experience JOY rather than passion or comfort might be the best compromise.
Debra 12
I liked all of Honey’s suggestions. You could also think about what things attracted you to your more passionate partners, and see if they would fit into your current relationship. For example, does a certain men’s cologne, way of dressing, hairstyle, etc spark your interest. Those could be good gift suggestions for your man (Honey’s suggestion of planning surprises for your mate) if he is open to trying new things. And maybe you would like a new makeover as well, to feel differently about who you are in the relationship. Sometimes, people just feel stifled and might not realize that they are stifling themselves.
Joe 13
I think a lot of people look solely to their marriage to make them happy “in life.” It’s like they forget the things that made them happy before they got married, or think they can’t enjoy those things any more because they got hitched.
Evan Marc Katz 14
Thanks for the sarcasm, Selena. Very constructive. So since you don’t seem to believe me, how about I post on behalf of those happy compromising people that you don’t think exist:
“I always thought that fireworks were the most important part of a relationship. For years I had short-term girlfriends where I was so enamored that I couldn’t imagine being with anyone else. Unfortunately, those women dumped me because there were parts of my personality they couldn’t accept. And I really decided that I wanted to be with someone who loved me in full. When I met my wife, I wasn’t infatuated with her. I didn’t call her ten times a day. I didn’t tell her I loved her until six months in. Yet I have yet to meet a better human being. Nobody is cooler, more fun, more generous, and kinder than she is. Oh, and we’ve got a great sex life. In other words, I’ve hit the wife jackpot. Do we have the same sizzle that I’ve had in past relationships? No. Do I have a relationship with a person who truly understands the meaning of cliches like “unconditional love”, “partner in crime” and “’til death do us part”? Hell, yeah.”
Feel free to pity me for being completely happy in my relationship. I can take it.
Just don’t make the mistake of assuming that compromising means getting 0 on the passion scale. As I’ve said, if you get a 7 in chemistry and a 10 in compatiblity, it’s far superior to a 10 in chemistry (that FEELING!) and a 5 in compatibility.
Evan
Carol 15
A few lucky ones are able to get both, I am thankful I was one of those. Perhaps when you are very young and grow together it is easier because you aren’t so jaded. The intensity fades, but it turns into “compassionate love” and you realize that is more valuable that the chemistry ever could be. That doesn’t mean the sex isn’t still good and like anything you have to put some effort into keeping it good.
Now I am widowed, I look for someone who could be my best friend, lover and share common interests, some chemistry too but not necessarily off the scale. Thank you Evan for giving me the tools to know the difference and never giving up!
starthrower68 16
Evan, I would submit to you that you have found JOY which is what I think people who believe they want fireworks are really looking for if the truth be told. They may not have yet learned the difference. I would also submit that those who have a more balance passion vs. comfort situation will tell you the slow burn is much better than the heady rush.
JuJu 17
May I ask a personal question, Evan? Does your wife know she is in any way a compromise?
I was also wondering about Lori’s husband if the man has any self-respect. :-/ She tells him openly of all her feelings (or, rather, lack thereof), yet he is happy just to have her in whatever capacity he can. (!)
Granted, I am a woman, and I absolutely must feel desirable in a relationship, but is it really that different for men?
Evan Marc Katz 18
Juju and Selena,
I respectfully submit that you are stuck in absolutist thinking.
If you choose to compromise, there will be NO passion.
If you make practical considerations, there will be NO joy.
If you don’t hold out for every single thing on your laundry list, you will be consigned to a sad lifetime of longing.
If a man thinks for one second that he is not absolutely perfect in the eyes of his wife, then he has no self-respect.
These statements are patently untrue.
What you’re failing to recognize is that EVERYONE who gets married compromises, in some form or another.
Ask the passionate woman who find that her husband is a workaholic, or emotionally unavailable, or a cheater. You get one thing, you give up another. Anyone who tells you otherwise isn’t telling you the truth.
So let’s not reduce my relationship, JuJu, to something as crude as “does your wife know she is a compromise?” That severely diminishes the intensity and joy of our marriage and reduces my wife to an object, which she certainly is not.
But does she know that I gave up certain things to be with her? Yes. As I know that she gave up certain things to be with me. As I know that anyone who marries you, JuJu and Selena, is going to have to compromise on something, too. To think otherwise is both arrogant and naive.
I respect your desire to hold out for the perfect guy, in the perfect, passionate relationship. I would request that you respect others who understand that life isn’t perfect and choose a different way of doing things. When Lori says she was unhappy with her compromise, she speaks for herself, not for all of us.
So let’s get away from this irrational absolutist thinking, which suggests that compromise is a bad word.
Because in marriage, it’s the ONLY word. No compromise, no partnership.
Have a lovely weekend, y’all. I’m getting some sun.
XO
E
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 19
What a great debate!
Evan, I think you are misunderstanding Selena’s and Juju’s points and perhaps vice versa.
I think you are attributing the word passion a different meaning, which is at the heart of this misunderstanding.
Let me illustrate by sharing a recent story from my own life:
I am currently going through a separation. I was married for about two years. My wife is a beautiful person and I still love her very much. I would describe our relationship to have also been passionate in many ways. She would have made a great wife and mother. Yet, we are going through a divorce. Why?
In my heart I believe it is possible to love someone, yet realize that this person is not the right one for you to share the rest of your life with. Based on my personal experience, I believe there is such a thing as being able to just know in your heart whether someone is a right person for you. However, to be able to just know is not as simply as it may sound. For you to have the ability to just know, certain preconditions have to be met. To fully understand what I mean by these preconditions, read my blog post that I selected below.
But my point here is that there is a big difference in having a passionate relationship and having the ability to have a knowing in your heart whether this person is the one you are meant to share your life with. I think in the case of Lori, what she was trying to communicate is that although she loves her husband dearly, in her heart she feels like he is not the right one for her. This sometimes may or may not correlate with having passion or sex in your relationship. And I think this is where the confusion has entered to this debate.
Evan, I completely understand yours as well as many others logic behind the idea of compromising to have marriage based on comfort rather than passion. And I think your arguments are well presented and very logical. I am fully aware of and completely understand that to make any marriage work you have to compromise, no marriage will ever be perfect. And to think otherwise would be na ve.
At the same time, I know that for me, the one thing I cannot compromise is to do what I feel is the right thing to do in my heart, no matter how much I would try to rationalize it otherwise. And I think that is what Selena and Juju are also trying to point out.
.-= Mikko Kemppe – Relationship Coach’s last blog ….How Do You Know You Have Found The Right One? =-.
JuJu 20
If you choose to compromise, there will be NO passion.
If you make practical considerations, there will be NO joy.
If you don’t hold out for every single thing on your laundry list, you will be consigned to a sad lifetime of longing.
Not quite. Or, actually, not at all so. I don’t think one necessarily (or even commonly) rules out the other. I would just prefer to tie my life with someone I know I want to be with, and sex for me personally is, maybe, one of the three or four most important components of a romantic relationship, so I want to make sure the person I choose for life is someone I want to have sex with indefinitely, and who wants the same with me.
I have been married to a man who wasn’t physically my type, and after only five years together I no longer wanted sex with him (he still wanted me as much as ever). Which didn’t mean, naturally, that I didn’t want sex in general – I did, just not with him. The man I would like to find now doesn’t have to be perfect at all, but from my experience I learned that he does have to be attractive to me beyond the initial sense of novelty.
If a man thinks for one second that he is not absolutely perfect in the eyes of his wife, then he has no self-respect.
Please don’t distort what I said. She told him that while he knows what it’s like to be intensely in love with a woman, she will never know what it’s like to feel the same for a man. She also told him hers is a life unlived. Theirs is a marriage that’s marginal at best (for her). I do believe my resulting question is legitimate.
And I never did dispute that marriage is a compromise, and that no one will be 100% what you want (nor will I be anyone’s *ideal* choice). Although I certainly would not want to hear my mate harp on everything he’s given up on or settled for by choosing to be with me. I don’t want him to rationalize his decision, nor do I want to have to rationalize mine.
Selena 21
Sorry I hit a nerve Evan. I didn’t mean to be sarcastic as much as I meant to light-heartedly portray some marriages I’ve heard described elsewhere. I read some sites that are not devoted to dating as much as they are to troubled relationships. A common, COMMON, complaint is where one spouse has totally lost interest in sex and the other is that their wits end with frustration.
Sometimes there seems to have been a bait and switch involved: the person seemed passionate at first, but cooled off in the months after the ceremony. In others, the spouse writing in admits things were never “that great” in the bedroom, but they thought the situation would improve after marriage. And sometimes they admit it didn’t really matter at first, but as the years went by, decades in some cases, the lack of passion came to be translated into a lack of love. Sometimes of simple interest in the other person.
And inevitably these people are emotionally torn on what to do. They describe their spouse as “a great parent”, “we get along very well”, “my best friend” , “would be terrible to divorce”. But like Lori mentioned in one of her posts, that little something that was missing at the start, had turned into something very big. An elephant in the room.
You may not have been crazy infatuated with your wife off the bat Evan, but re-read your post…you write about her PASSIONATELY. You do. As a person who interests you, and I guess you could call it a bonus that you have a great sex life.
This is not the same as advising people to consider marrying someone for whom they feel little in the way of sparks just so they can avoid the horrors! of being single over 40. Though perhaps that was a fear of yours? Another thing Lori wrote, that I’ve read other people say elsewhere, was about preferring to be alone rather than LONELY in a marriage. This is what can happen when ‘comfort’ wears off just as it can when passion does.
Initially I thought your comment about fighting on the way to chemo was pretty lame. Now thinking about it, I’d LOVE to be fighting with someone on my way to chemo. Because it would show we were still passionate about each other, and life! Something I imagine I’d need going in for chemo. And other difficult situations.
Honey 22
@Juju and Selena, I’ve heard stories about sex fizzling in the way you describe as well, and think it’s important for folks to realize that someone’s sex drive during the first year or so of a relationship is not necessarily reflective of their actual sex drive. It is entirely possible for one person to have a higher sex drive in the “honeymoon” phase and then have a very, very low sex drive for the remainder of the rest of the relationship. This is one of the reasons I think it’s important to date for a long time before getting married, because this is something that people have not always been in long term relationships enough to even know about themselves.
I know that her lack of interest in sex was one reason the BF ended things with his ex, and now he’s in a relationship (with me:-) where he is the partner with the lower sex drive (though I wouldn’t say it’s “low,” just lower than mine). While some of it is about attraction, there are things that affect sex drive in addition to attraction, and those things are just as important to know.
.-= Honey’s last blog ….A Love Styles Exercise =-.
Selena 23
Whoa ho! So many staggering assumptions I scarcely know where to begin. Talk about absolutest thinking my friend.
Compromise is more likely, certainly more palatable with some passion for backup.
Since when did JOY and practical considerations become mutually exclusive? Not in my world.
I don’t HAVE a laundry list, much less hold out for everything on one and drown in longing. There are dealbreakers, everything else depends on the individual.
There is a man alive who thinks he’s perfect in the eyes of his wife? Really? On earth?
I’m neither arrogant, nor naive and I think the concept of holding out for the “perfect guy” is ludicrous. There is no such thing as a perfect PERSON let alone guy.
CLEARLY, Lori speaks for herself, but it was YOU who chose to make her words an example for your essay EMK. She mentioned some of her friends, but no where in her writing did I see she mentioned YOU or “the rest of us” whoever “the rest of us” is. And she is not the only person who’s written here after finding “settling” wasn’t quite all it’s cracked up to be. YOU KNOW THAT if you read your own blog.
XO Selena
downtowngal 24
Selena #3, “It seems that comfort can become less comforting over time as well.”
So true. When you know you know. If you’ve never been attracted to the guy you never will.
I think this becomes an issue at the point of deciding whether to date – or continue to someone based on shallow criteria – i.e. hair color/height/occupation, etc. And you have to figure out whether you’re adding neorotic ‘roadblocks’ preventing you from pursuing your heart, or if it’s real. By the time you get to wedding day, if it’s not there, it never will be.
Your heart and gut never lie.
People who are holding hands after 40+ years are comfortable with themselves and are selfless toward their partners. If you feel as if you’ve settled upon wedding day it won’t change.
zann 25
Lori: I’m gonna be brutally frank. Either get over yourself or get into yourself. You say you married the dude knowing you were doing it for reasons other than love — because the timing seemed right, or he’d make a good father, or to suit what other requirements you thought you needed to be an acceptable woman in the eyes of others (because heaven forbid you should be a “spinster”). But what you were actually doing was making yourself comfortable by using someone else, namely your husband. And now that you’re still not comfortable with who you are, within the acceptable sanctity of marriage, home & hearth, you believe it’s because this same guy isn’t shooting you to the moon between the sheets every night. You crave what you think other lucky couples have — sparks AND compatibility. Just who are these lucky, lucky couples, because I’d like to meet them and hear what they have to say about their constant contentment. Chances are they have their blah periods or times when they rack their brains trying to remember what it was about their spouse that made them lust for them way back when. OR they grow to despise in their spouse the very thing that made them seem so HOT in the first place. Marriage is a crapshoot and messy, and — you’re absolutely right — often winds up being very tepid at times. But ya know what? There’s a whole lot of women, myself included, who would be glad to have such problems. Instant chemistry is exactly that — instantaneous combustion not meant to last. When you’re in it for the long haul, sometimes you gotta break out the flint, do a lot of rubbing, and pray for sparks. Come on, Lori, you’ve HAD the full-flush hot stuff in the past with other guys — but is it just coincidence that you didn’t wind up marrying any of them??? No, silly, it’s because for one reason or another, they weren’t good long-term partners. When we feel unhappy with ourselves, the first thing we tend to do is point the finger at the “other,” and start looking over the fence… convincing ourselves that IF ONLY we had those glorious sparks, everything else would fall into place. Maybe you even have a particular dude you’re craving & you’re sure he could fill that void for you. But I can tell you — from the mouths of married women who’ve gone there, done that — it’s a fantasy, a delusion. As for your friends who say they’d rather be alone than in a non-sparks marriage with a nice guy — well, may they embrace that alone-ness, live long and prosper from within it. Meanwile, there’s plenty of women out there who would be more than willing to recognize these nice guys for who and what they are. But if you’re miserable now, you’ll no doubt still be miserable without your current husband. He, on the other hand, might actually wind up happier without you — because at least he’d be free to find a woman who not only thinks he’s good enough, but actually finds him to be damn good — and a nice, responsible guy to boot.
Barb 26
Stop talking with your girlfriends about your passionless marriages. It’s only going to make you focus more and more on the passion you feel is lacking and make all the good things move to the background. Put the passion you have for complaining about it into a pool dancing class or something like that. How passionate are you yourself? Do you dress a little sexy, do you laugh a lot, are you engaged with life? Shake things up. Comfort and familiarity is the death of passion. It’s easy to feel passionate in the first few months of a relationship … it’s a fantasy that you will feel the same passion after 20 years of marriage. There’s no one on this planet with whom you will experience this.
lorihaah4 27
Every post allows me to see the issue from so many interesting angles, all valid/valuable perspectives (well..maybe w/ the exception of Zann…ha ha) The fact remains (and I am speaking from my heart…and its a pretty big heart), I stay not because there is some unspoken, secret love of the ‘comfort’, but because i would rather feel the empty space than to hurt my husband and my children. I am NOT afraid to be alone, I am not afraid that i could not find a sexy man to date if single (im not yet 40 by the way and Im fairly confident id be a fun date), I only mentioned a few friends, but unfortunately I have know many/heard of many who live in quiet desperation as well…i simply want to show the other side of the settling issue, or of the index card “passion / comfort” – because if there is anyone who questions the walk down the aisle now….make sure you are really REALLY sure, because in marriage, the puddle between you becomes the brook, becomes a stream becomes the river becomes the grand canyon…and its pretty damn near impossible to bring that thing back together.
lorihaah4 28
Evan – i have read paradox of choice, and pretty much every other book i can get my hands on that you and several other relationship knowledge seekers have ever suggested – have you read the article from the Atlantic re happiness? http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200906/happiness
pretty deep stuff there… long but worthwhile and it seems you are quite the reader yourself. i think another part of the whole issue is that we, as humans, (as raw as it sounds)… are still so fresh out of the cave – and what worked (p.e.a. etc) to keep us together to create/nurture babies, and live to the ripe old age of 40 50 or 60, just simply maybe doesn’t often doesnt work anymore?! The article suggests that the happiest in old age amongst us have really lived, that it is better to squeeze the lemons into lemonade of life. My BIGGEST fear..much bigger than of being alone, is that i am teaching my kids, leading by example, to aspire to mediocrity in life.. or maybe better stated.. to endure a stale ‘comfy’ marriage because thats what people do. And because so many people do so as per societal conventions, there is adultery, divorce, blah blah blah…. statistics are only a small percentage of the amount of people who actually stray… and from what ive read the statistic is pretty high – my guess, from what i have witnessed (MANY people share their personal stories with me, even strangers…im logical and compassionate and overall non-judgemental – tollerant/intollerant of what i allow in my life but non judgemental when hearing others lifestories) is that there are many seemingly happily married couples where one person is in fact very lonely… look at alcohol abuse, drug dependency, depression meds, etc. in the western world – it is out of control – too many people want to numb themselves of their pain.
aj 29
I had 9 great years until my mate died. No offense Evan but you are a newlywed. After atleast 7 years, lets see where you are at, young man!
-NN- 30
This is the same discussion that we always have – there are people who can have pleasurable sex without being attracted to their partners
and there are those who find sex distasteful with a partner who is not sexually attractive to them.
I know which one I am..
I am rather without sex and single – than distasteful sex in a relationship. (because that it would be after several years, when my partner would get his O, and I would always be without)
as simple as that.
So if I thought sex is not something that I need in a relationship, I could settle.
I would like to see for once that you are going to recommend that he starts a relatioship with a woman, whom he doesn’t fancy sexually ..
(Because that is what you are always recommending to women..)
It is easy, if you see plenty of members of opposite sex whom you fancy..
I don’t
- and I am not going to prostitute myself for rest of my life to have a relationship.
A-L 31
In #20 Selena wrote, This is not the same as advising people to consider marrying someone for whom they feel little in the way of sparks just so they can avoid the horrors! of being single over 40.
I think this is the crux of the confusion/disagreement on this thread. We’re all defining sparks/chemistry as different things. In a different thread (http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/is-it-okay-to-love-someone-but-not-be-in-love/#comment-38318) I talked about a knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza chemistry and several posters (including Selena) said this wasn’t what they were expecting when they said they wanted chemistry. I’m guessing that when Evan is talking about a 10 on the chemistry scale, this is what he’s talking about. When he’s dropping it down to a 7, it’s probably what the chemistry people are actually asking to get.
10 = a knock your socks off, house-shaking, fireworks exploding extravaganza
7-8 = more intense, more connected sometimes almost spiritual in nature sex (from Selena at http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/is-it-okay-to-love-someone-but-not-be-in-love/#comment-38615)
So if you feel little in the way of sparks, you’re not at a 7 on the chemistry scale, you’re probably a 3-4 at best, and quite possibly a 1-2. Nobody here is advocating for someone to marry their partner who they feel so little for in the way of passion. I think everyone would agree that it’s probably a recipe for disaster. But I think the pro-compatibility people are saying not to hold out for the house-shaking 10, because it’s unlikely to last (if it’s even found).
mic 32
Passion can be unrelated to strong physical attraction toward, or chemistry with, someone. It can even be about a hobby. Someday, maybe researchers will track marriages according to initial passion and see how well they are doing years later, when looks have faded and sex drives likely have dropped.
mic 33
For the record, physical attraction/chemistry probably matters in part because of those blah (or worse) periods when personality compatibility feels limited. People, for example, look longer at others they find attractive, which at least helps to maintain some respect as opposed to completing ignoring someone.
starthrower68 34
I still maintain that intensely passionate marriages see days when both people don’t feel particularly passionate or don’t even like each other very much. That’s when one learns that love is a decision, as much if not more than a feeling. That is not to say that either passion or comfort are wrong; but we all get bogged down in the cares of life, and get weary from it all. That’s when you decide you’re going to give it some effort.
mic 35
Physical attraction also automatically tends to lead to better body language and more smiling. Food for thought about how the world works. FYI, there’s evidence from yearbook photos that happy-faced people do better in life.
Another good area for research is the physical attractiveness of people who crave passion. It’s plausible that people of average or less attractiveness seldom are in that category and therefore sooner learn how to successfully handle relationships, which they might need to take more seriously due to having less to offer in one respect. Again, marital satisfaction is not linked to physical attractiveness.
Jurate 36
It’s a choice for sure! It’s a choice between being “myself A” and “myself B”. If you choose to be passive aggressive and blame the partner for that you are doing zero effort (not to please the partner, but make yourself enjoy him), there will be no joy, only misery. It is such a no brainer that I can’t stop being surprised why it is a problem for YOU. It is the problem for your partner: you are being passive aggressive. What happens in those passionate periods of initial infatuation is: “the high”, where internal motivation to invest into relationship peaks and you do invest all of yourself, then with time, that investment keeps you in. If have not made that investment in a “green field” of a passionate infatuation, do it in “the brown field” – now. Same, or even better effect. That said, I would gladly skip the infatuation, the passion… I have it in myself…
Ruby 37
The most interesting thing about this thread is how hard it is to define what a relationship should be. The dating advice out there is so contradictory. Some say, you must give up your list to find love, while others I have read actively encourage you to make a list of what you want and carry it around in your wallet (The Law of Attraction), and that perfect partner will be drawn to you.
I hate to say it, but no one knows. To some extent, despite everything, meeting that special person is a bit of a crapshoot. That’s why that “best people marrying young” discussion in another thread seemed like such a fallacy.
The truth is, some people find their soulmate at age 22. And some of those fine people get divorced 20 years later. Some would like to leave, but stay because of kids, finances, or fear. Some really want to start a family before it’s too late, and compromise on the choice of a partner in order to achieve that goal. I’ve met many divorced people who married because their partner (or their parents) wanted it or because all their friends were married. Some people find the love of their life when they’re 65. Although we hate to acknowledge it, some people never do.
We all want to know, though, don’t we? We can’t control who comes into our lives, we can only make a concerted effort to meet potential partners, and determine as best we can how we’ll respond to them. But you can’t control it, can’t bend or shape your desires to suit your will. All relationship involve some degree of compromise. What might work for me might be anathema to you….how much passion do you need? And how much comfort? Can you find a balance?
And that’s just physical chemistry. What about common interests/values/goals, and character? One of the best quotes I ever heard was from a friend who said to me, “Desire is precise”. As if it all isn’t complicated enough!
downtowngal 38
NN#30, excellent points.
I really think that if there are sparks at the beginning you have a chance. This doesn’t mean this is your lifelong partner, that’s what the next few months-year are about, getting to know each other after the initial buzz wears off so you can learn more about each others’ values, etc.
Sometimes spearks fly after the initial period, but I think that’s if one party is (perhaps subconciously) placing roadblocks. Like a friend of mine who couldn’t believe how much she liked this one guy who kept asking her out – once she got passed the fact that he wasn’t the educated banker she always sought after she was hooked. By their wedding day they were sure.
People often marry for reasons other than love. Like a guy who finds the girl he had a fling with on the rebound from his ex got pregnant so he marries her (true story). Or arranged marriages, which some of my friends’ parents (Indian/middle-eastern) had. In those cultures the family plays a greater role in society than in our’s.
mic 39
Lori, how attractive are the women in your social circle that you mention above? Evan, what about the woman in the happy couples you know, relative to LA standards? It seems like a woman’s attractiveness and her eagerness to go for a passionate relationship are connected.
Diana 40
I barely know where to begin.
In response to some of your comments, Evan, I do believe that a successful relationship is about compromise. If you are a truly successful couple, you learn as you grow (change), both as individuals and as a couple, as you weather life’s ups and downs and its many challenges, how to successfully keep your relationship thriving, all through compromising. Recognizing the compromising that has occurred does not deplete the joy, love, or passion in a marriage nor make anyone an object. Compromising between two emotionally and mentally healthy, strong individuals can actually bring a deeper joy, love or passion. After all, compromising is a selfless act. A couple will often compromise, at times, without even a glance. Every single day together is a constant balance, i.e. compromise.
When I read the words “comfort, compromise, chemistry, settling, fireworks, passion,” and so on here, I often feel that the subject is not entirely clear, since every one seems to have a slightly different take. I find it somewhat bewildering when I read the view of others who have yet to experience a lifelong relationship, especially marriage because thoughts are being projected onto a future that has yet to occur. It is somewhat naive to believe you will know how you will feel after five, 10 or 20 years of marriage, with perhaps children as well ~ children will test your relationship in ways you cannot imagine or appreciate as of yet.
Compatibility is what I believe to be the most important issue. I also believe there has to be the critical element of a mutual physical attraction; not spontaneous combustion, but a fire nonetheless. It doesn’t necessarily have to be at the beginning either. IMHO, the best kind of fire is the one that starts as a slow burn or a small spark, and is fueled by compatibility which often turns the fire into an explosion. Physical attraction is a funny thing ~ sometimes people become more attractive to us, as we get to know them, or vice versa. As the years roll by and the fire returns to burning embers, it will serve an even greater purpose because of the bond it helped to create to weather the storms ahead. Compatibility without physical attraction, or physical attraction without compatibility will not lead to a successful lifelong relationship.
Oh it may appear that way, when you are looking over the fence, but appearances are highly deceiving. And everyone knows that a woman’s heart, in particular, is as deep as the ocean (to borrow from the “Titanic” movie), and one of the most complex things on earth.
Selena 41
A-L, #31
First of all I don’t use scales on this concept (I went back and checked) – that’s you. And sometimes EMK.
What I think happens on this blog is the words butterflies, fireworks, infatuation, chemistry, passion, “being in love”, are often used synonymously and indiscriminately when they DO NOT necessarily mean the same thing.
Infatuation is based primarily on physical attraction and is largely hormonal. A blunt way to describe this is “fresh lust”. Which can give you that giddy feeling; aka: “butterflies”, “sparks”. Sex during the period of infatuation is described by some as “fireworks”. It’s exciting and intoxicating because it’s new. It’s a high. But nothing can stay “new” forever – newness wears off. And so does infatuation simply by getting to know the other person. And when that happens the individuals find they either just aren’t that into each other afterall, OR they realize they are falling in love. Something deeper than infatuation and based on more than sexual attraction.
Which is not to say that people who have been together many years don’t still have “fireworks extravaganzas!”. They just don’t expect it *every* time.
Chemistry – is that hard-to-define *something* that you feel towards some people and not others. It’s more than sexual attraction and you don’t have to look far into anyone’s life to see that is true. Review your friends, co-workers, relatives…there are some you “click” with more than others. Some who really “get” you, yes? Chemistry is something that is special, something beyond “get along well with”. I’ll venture when most of the posters on this blog are attempting to defend chemistry to EMK that’s what they mean: the difference between special and “get along well with”. If you’ve ever had it with a partner, the idea of being partnered to someone without it is pretty unappealing.
Passion isn’t just sex either. You can have a passion for your work, a hobby, a cause, your children. Why WOULDN’T you want to have passion for your partner? Seriously. Good sex can be an outgrowth of passion, so can just enjoying spending time together. It’s the difference between being really happy when your person comes home and
“He’s home, so what”.
Feeling passionately about someone doesn’t automatically equate to conflict. EMK used the example of passion on one side of an index card, comfort on the other. The point was to choose one or the other. How about looking at it this way: both passion and comfort are on the SAME INDEX CARD. They are not opposing ideas, they are both parts of a whole.
Being in love – without the quotation marks is simply a sense of loving another soul as you love yourself, a part of you, the person you see your future with. Your partner in life. “Being in love” -with quotations marks, as it has been used on this blog is meant to be demeaning. Trying to give the impression that it’s the same thing as lust, “butterflies”, infatuation, fleeting, trivial, unimportant. Maybe believing that helps some justify their choices I don’t know. It’s not a phrase I have ever used lightly.
Diana 42
Although, compromising is only selfless in certain instances.
To Lori, I just want to say that while it may appear that your husband is not affected by the thoughts and feelings you have brutally bared for him, since his love and attraction for you remains, I sincerely hope that you do not find yourself and your children suddenly and unexpectedly without him. I sense that you take him for granted. He may continue to be the way he is with you based on low self-esteem, or his own fear of being alone.
Men, good men, want to feel like they are your hero. They want to take care of you and make you happy. When this does not occur, and they feel like no matter what they do, you’re still not happy, they often shut down, withdraw, start to become harder to live with.
I do not know you or your husband and life, so please forgive me if I sound out of left field on this. As for not wanting to hurt him, you may have already. And as your children grow older, they will be able to feel the stifling air.
Cat 43
How do you define passion? Sexual chemistry or just excitement (in general) about being with someone? Does anyone have the energy to be that excited about someone for 14 years of marriage and raise kids?
Why does her husband have to fill her empty space? Does she have a passion about anything?? The passionless marriages I hear about usually seem to involve little effort from either partner to change it for the better… It’s far easier to complain to girlfriends than to actually do something! Why not start an affair WITH your husband? I prescribe a wig, a box of wine and a cheap motel (or whatever is so off track from your normal life) and you may find you don’t know everything about your mate Maybe he feels the same way that you do, that he settled (for someone with no passion for him!) How would you feel about that?
Right now you’re using your kids as an excuse to stay in a passionless marriage. What happens when you’ve raised your kids, they’re off at school, and it’s just you and the husband you’re not in love with?
And rest assured that if you dumped him, likely one of the friends who loved hearing you complain would snap him up in a heartbeat… (Not that it should be a reason to keep him, just something to consider.)
Diana 44
To Selena #40 ~ great post! I have experienced passion and comfort at the same time ~ amazing! I was blessed for many years for which I remain grateful. They do NOT have to be exclusive. I have also experienced the “I’m not ‘in love’ with you” words. At the time, I didn’t completely understand what he was trying to say. In hindsight, I believe what really happened was his inability to deal with new and serious financial issues that had developed. He needed space and time to figure himself out, and it didn’t truly have anything to do with me or us at all.
Kenley 45
As someone who ended a long term relationship with a good man who felt more like a best friend than a best friend AND a lover, I can sincerely say that when I ended the relationship, I truly wished that he would meet and fall in love with another woman who would love him just as much as he loved her. So, the people who seem to be suggesting that Lori should stay simply because he might be happy with someone else are completely missing the point, in my opinion. When I ended my relationship, many of my friends said “Good. We always thought you could do better.” I responded by telling them, there was no need to say anything mean about him and it was highly unlikely that I would find someone who would love me more or even as much as he did. And, five years later, I haven’t. But,I don’t regret for one minute ending it. Just because a man is good, doesn’t mean that he is right for you. I am sure many of the women reading this blog have ended relationships with good men who treated them well. But being treated well isn’t enough. Often times we focus on what women want to get from men in relationships, but there is another side that’s just as important. What do women need to give in a relationship and is the man open to receiving it. If a good guy doesn’t want the things a woman wants to give, that’s also a reason why a relationship might not work. He’s not bad and neither is the woman.
lorihaah4 46
Kenley – u stated exactly how i feel – i do want hapiness for him and to have him avoid suffering..it would only ENHANCE my life, my kids lives, his life and those around him if he found mutual, reciprocated love and caring. Diana – u are rite, which i what i fear – that my kids notice the silence..the lack of passion- we do not argue, i am kind, but in a sincere, polite way, not in a ‘i love when he comes home from work we can spend time together’ way. This is what i see so often in marriages lacking the passion or connection we ALL describe – in different ways – but i do think we agree that there is something undefinable that brings us to certain others. Without this marriages often deteriorate over time (from what i have witnessed).
MIC – overall, yes, i would have to say that re the friends i know MOST about – all the females, overall, are all atttractive to very attractive and all are in good shape, they are overall fun and outgoing w/ ages approx 30 – mid late 40′s. The male friends are attractive to semi attractive, but ALL have an outgoing personality, successful careers, and a love of life. To those that think my husband has low self esteem – please put yourself in his shoes for ONE moment, have you never been guilty of hanging onto something you loved so much even tho you knew the love was not quite being reciprocated…i am sorry – but i have read Evan’s posts, i think most if not all of us have been guilty of that at some point in our life. It is hard to walk away from, and he is, i reitterate, a great guy, we don’t fight, i care for his children very well, he is fed, his house is kept clean, i keep myself in shape & quite presentable every day, we have common friends, the list goes on…Like Evan promotes, often life is a choice, a trade-off, maybe for him its worth the trade…? i just dont want to rip his clothes off, i dont want to make out etc… My guess is most of us can relate to why he stays if we were in his shoes, instead of judging.
lorihaah4 47
Cat – my self and the people i know, have met, and describe, are not sad lonely pathetic people sitting around crying – most are attractive, passionate about MANY things, volunteers, serve on boards, have jobs, go out, have friends, are coaches, some are doctors, dentists, lawyers, some are stay at home moms, some are wealthy, some are middle income, they are athletic (almost ALL), they live full lives, they may be your neighbors, YOUR doctor, YOUR attorney, catholic, protestant, jewish, agnostic, the lady down the street who looks like a great caring wife…. but many just married too young, or because according to society it ‘was time’ to settle. I am not trying to get you to drink the Kool-aid here… all i am trying to point out is my experience, and that the people i know who treated marriage as a ‘business decision’ and chose a mate accordingly, as a rule, end up feeling very lonely after a few years of marriage, even the ones, maybe MOSTLY the ones, with children. For those who are exceptions to the rule I HAVE experience with – – i admire you and aspire to feel the contentment of life that you experience, and hope that in my endless examination of self and others, i someday will live a content life with mutual love, and no longer have longing for intimate love and that my children, my friends children, and all of yours have the same.
A-L 48
In my #31 I didn’t mean to indicate that Selena uses scales on this stuff, but was just accrediting the quote to her (as those were her words, not mine; I just attached them to a scale).
I do appreciate the various definitions from Selena in #40 since these definitions were totally not how I was viewing the terms that have been thrown about on this board. My question is, do most people agree with Selena’s interpretations? Because if we don’t agree on what a word means, our debate here will be running around in constant (useless) circles. Here’s my take on her definitions.
Infatuation : I completely agree
Chemistry : This was one that I had a totally different definition on (mine was more in line with the behaviors associated with infatuation). But using Selena’s definition, anyone I would want to be friends worth or hang out with, I would need to have chemistry with. Otherwise they’re just friendly acquaintances. Yet this is also coming from someone who prefers to have a small, close group of really good friends than a larger group of more casual friends.
Passion : This is another term that I had associated with the behavior related to chemistry/infatuation. I understand what Selena is saying here, and if the majority of people go with this definition, I’ll roll with it. I’ll save my disagreements with what she said here for a different spot, as it doesn’t have anything to do with the actual definition.
Being in love : I don’t see a difference between Selena’s unquoted being in love than with loving someone as your partner in life. For me, though, the phrase being in love indicates the infatuation/rose-colored glasses phase. Basically, in my personal life use the quoted/unquoted versions of being in love the same way, but will agree to use the terms here however the board decides.
Being in love I don’t agree that this is a trivial part of a relationship to be demeaned. I simply think it’s one associated with the infatuation phase.
A-L 49
Mic brings up some interesting issues in regards to appearance and expectations. I think most would agree that a 9 is going to have a larger dating pool than a 4. So it would stand to reason that the 9 is going to have a better selection and find a better mate than the 4 (better in terms of appearance/wealth/common interests, etc). Basically, the 9 might be able to find someone who meets all of their desires but the 4 is going to have to compromise somewhere. Though it’s rather depressing, I think it’s probably true.
And this is where I’m going to take up with some of Selena’s points in regards to passion (#41). Passion is an extraordinarily intense emotion that some people don’t feel at all, or only at certain times. Nor is it permanent.
For instance there was a period of about 3 years or so that I was passionate and intensely involved with some civil liberties issues. I did petitions, I was at protests, I would organize meetings with our congressional representatives. Do I still care about those issues? Yes. Is it still a consuming part of my life? No. I love to sing, I love to dance, I love shelter dogs. Do I do activities related to all of them? Yes. But I wouldn’t say that I’m passionate about any of them unless I dedicated a huge chunk of my time to them (say 50-80% of my non-working free time).
I can be happy that my partner has come home without feeling as though my entire life wraps around him. In fact most people here agree that one should have interests besides their significant other, thereby reducing the amount of time you spend focused on them.
There are some people who can feel passion for something for their whole lives. But to me passion is sort of an elongated version of infatuation. It lasts longer than infatuation, but it’s not permanent.
JuJu 50
I think most would agree that a 9 is going to have a larger dating pool than a 4. So it would stand to reason that the 9 is going to have a better selection and find a better mate than the 4
I think this is rather a simplification. The 9 in looks would NOT have such an easy time finding a quality mate if she is also a 9 in intelligence. And what if she also has a very successful career? How small is her pool of potential mates then?
Granted, she would attract plenty of attention from all kinds, but it would be still very hard to find someone up to her standards.
Evan Marc Katz 51
The 9 doesn’t have a small pool of potential mates. In fact, she has the hugest pool of potential mates – namely, everyone. The problem is that she doesn’t want any of them because of her lofty standards. So the 9 stays alone, lamenting her lack of choices. She’s like the man who stays unemployed because he wants a million dollar salary – and then claims there’s no jobs out there. It’s a self-imposed prison, not a real one, based on arbitrary and subjective standards.
Because, as you know, most people who think they’re 9′s aren’t really 9′s. And yes, this goes for men and women alike.
You’ve just identified why it’s so hard to find love.
mic 52
There’s actually no evidence that more attractive people are more selective re personality traits and only mixed evidence re intelligence requirements. (Maybe because looks and intelligence don’t correlate much once particularly unattractive individuals are excluded.) They seem primarily more selective in terms of wealth and physical attractiveness and presumably related things such as “passion.” If they truly were more picky in a broad way, physical attractiveness and odds of getting married might not correlate much. To repeat, the marriages of the beautiful people aren’t any stronger. Most people know roughly where they stand in terms of physical attractiveness, though.
lorihaah4 53
I agree with Mic – and disagree with Evan here… i think i would say of my female acquaintances/friends who are CLEARLY 8′s or 9′s, and that is not just my judgement i have often witnessed peoples reaction to their looks, they ABSOLUTELY under-rate themselves and in the past, chose, as Mic said, better looking or more wealthy men who are often arrogant and cocky, or emotionally distant (one set of traits or the other) and they have put up with much more crap from these men than any self respecting person should. And i have seen men ask these women out that clearly have no chance at a ‘yes’, and yes, that is based on the mens looks and knowing my friends taste, and the men believe they have a chance. Not sure but from what i’ve seen it is the men who over rate themselves – most woman are very critical and hard on themselves for the most part. And truly, looks have nothing to do with it passion for another person – i dated three men who were easily 9′s, probably 10′s, two were insanely jealous and one was seriously lousy in bed. Of the two men i dated that were the most memorable and i felt the closest to love for that i may ever feel (and it wasn’t long enough to be crazy enduring love), neither was particularly great looking, but they ‘had a look’ as i would say, they were clean cut, sexy, charismatic, very funny to be around, sweet, but by most standards, average looking. Only caveat: I wasnt ready to commit when i dated them, so i never found out if this chemistry endured beyond the first year.
downtowngal 54
Kenley #45 said, “If a good guy doesn’t want the things a woman wants to give, that’s also a reason why a relationship might not work.”
Kenley, in your own experience, what was it that you wanted to give that he didn’t want? Was it that the both of you were truly incompatable?
Selena 55
@ A-L #48
Regarding chemistry and friendship: all friends start out as “friendly acquaintances” so how did you choose those few who became your close circle? Did you have a practical list of qualities you wanted in a friend and selected them on that basis? Or was it more that you just seemed to “hit it off” with them? “Clicked” as it were, and the friendship grew from there? There was something special about your friends that separated them from the all the other people you know in your corner of the world. You could call that chemistry.
If there were nothing special to you about your small, close group of very good friends then you would not even have such a definition. You WOULD be able to hang out with anybody without seeking the company of anyone specificly. It wouldn’t matter to you.
This is how I describe chemistry as something besides/beyond/other than sexual attraction. You feel drawn to some people and not, or not as much, to others. Some people become close friends, others remain casual friends, acquaintances. You can’t pin point exactly what it is – but you understand on an instinctive level that *it* is either there or it’s not.
Diana 56
Lori, I feel for you. It sounds like you’re not living, rather merely existing, at least in your relationship. I think your situation is all too common, and people choose to live that way for countless, deeply personal reasons. I do know what it’s like to try and hold on to something incredibly dear to you, even when the OP and the life you have loved, nurtured, created and cared for for close to 30 years is slipping away until it finally fades from view. In the end, all the advice or anonymous people peering in will not likely give you the answer(s) or comfort and solace you seek. As with all things in life, they lie within, even when we do not always want to see. Search your soul and heart, and find the strength to do what feels right to you, and then after you’ve made your decision, try as best you can to find the strength to live a life without regret.
Meilssa 57
@ A-L Post #49
You have me questioning my whole life on that post… LOL
I did a lot of good things when I was very PASSIONATE about Environmentalism and Global Warming. My passion allowed me to create a couple websites and do some things where I have a small “presence” online and serve as an inspiration to other people in this area.
But the problem is… just as you described. I did all those things when I was deeply PASSIONATE about it and now I kind of feel like a big phony because I’ve lost 75% of my passion toward the cause. When I get emails of how I inspire people because they’ve been to my websites, it makes me a bit depressed because I know I don’t have that same passion and vigor and drive toward making a difference in the world that I once did.
I know your just kind of thinking aloud with your thread… but I sure wish there were some answers to the dilemma of losing passion for things such as causes, etc.
I am open to suggestions or other insights folks might have… LOL
lorihaah4 58
Diana – thank you – you thots are insightful. Melissa – I am guilty of the same in relationships AND in life… (losing or changing passions)… Maybe Evan or a reader has a theory for this? I find it to be true of many peoples lives in fact. Also, quite often, after living with someone for 5, 10 years, there little quirky habits – the same ones that seemed bearable in the first few years – become really freaking annoying and stand out like sore thumbs once the craziness of a new relationship, new home, then young kids, etc.. passes and you really realize who you married and the life choices you made… Hindsight is 20/20, and what seemed a good choice, maybe WAS a good choice at that time, but people change and relationships evolve, just as your ’cause of the month’ might change… thinking out loud… maybe some things just arent meant to endure forever and when it stops being fun and happy and productive for everyone involved, its ok to change your course? The question is, life is short… do you stay where you are, on a road well traveled, simple, where you know what turns & bumps to expect, but the route is uninspiring, or do you look to take the path less taken, where you have no idea what lies ahead but you get the chance to feel??
JuJu 59
Lori, don’t know if this will help you any, but my husband was also madly in love with me, and I also felt sorry for him. Because of that I left him in reality about half a year to eight months after I first decided to. But then I realized that I can’t stay with someone merely out of pity for them. I only live once – what about MY happiness?
Thankfully, we had no children.
mic 60
What Lori wrote in #53 about good-looking men being “cocky” is supported by research. Women under-rating themselves – on looks? That’s supported by research, almost needlessly. Anecdotally, yes, women will put up with more from especially good-looking men. (John Edwards.) But it probably isn’t true that passion is unrelated to looks. At the very least, sheer ugliness would seem to prevent any sort of meaningful interaction that might become passionate.
mic 61
If that confused anyone, it doesn’t mean that women rank themselves much lower compared to peers than they actually are, but that they often don’t feel attractive. Does a lousy body image lead to worse relationship management? No answer to that is available.
Dope 62
Great post. It made me think about how many cultures operate in the “arranged marriage” paradigm, and how the divorce rates of such marriages are much lower than those of “love marriages.”
I don’t mean to advocate for them, exactly, but it’s food for thought. Proponents of arranged marriage will often state that they believe individuals can be too easily influenced by the effects of love to make a choice that is ultimately in his or her best interest. Are they necessarily so wrong?
.-= Dope’s last blog ….LocalTryst.com review =-.
A-L 63
RE: Selena’s #48
I didn’t disagree that your definition of chemistry is an integral part of a relationship, be it amorous or platonic. It is, in fact, a key component. I was just noting that I’m not sure how many people define chemistry the same way you do, as I was one of those who had a completely different definition.
To answer your question though, if I think someone has the potential to become a friend then I hang out with them. If it goes well, we hang out more. The better it goes, the more frequently we’ll do stuff until I feel close enough to call them a friend. I do the same thing when I go out on dates as well. I will say, though, that the *it* factor with my closest friends was not immediately there, it was built. I take awhile to fully warm up to people and so it takes a little while to fully break out into my inner crazy self when with new people. That’s why I also give [most] guys more than 1 date to see how things go.
RE: Melissa’s #57
Didn’t mean to make you rethink your whole life! And you’re right about me sort of thinking aloud. This blog does help me to clarify my thoughts on some of these issues which are quite applicable to my life. A lot of times I don’t realize something until all of a sudden I blurt it out here or read it from someone else’s comments. So, thanks Evan!
Selena 64
Re: #62
Could it be the divorce rate among arranged marriages is lower because the cultures in which they are fostered also attach significant stigma to divorce?
In other words, the divorce rate may or may not predict how satisfying these marriages actually are, but could be a reflection of the couples reluctance to be stigmatized within their religious/social group.
Historically this has been a factor in cultures that didn’t foster arranged marriages as a norm. You don’t have to go back that many decades in the US to find this. And possibly among some religious communities currently as well.
JuJu 65
That’s not to mention the lack of individual freedom in those countries, especially for women.
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 66
Re: #48
The way Selena defines the terms Infatuation, Chemistry, Passion, Being in love, and Being in love in post #40 is how I understand and interpret them as well. Very nicely done!!
Re: #62
I think Selena again hit the nail in the head on her post # 64.
.-= Mikko Kemppe – Relationship Coach’s last blog ….How To Get A Guy To Marry You? =-.
downtowngal 67
Selena#64 & JuJu#65, true. In many traditional cultures women are more dependent on their husbands financially and socially. In America (and othe western countries), many second-generation still view marriage as a requisite for adulthood.
I have friends who are Indian/Pakastani-Americans (second generation) and are happily married to people they love. They weren’t arrange marriages, but their families played an active role in fixing them up w matches, they’d date, and if there’s a click, would be engaged within a year. If there was a click but no engagement by that time the family would either pressure the guy or help/convince their daughter to find a more ‘suitable boy’.
Are they still happy and will they remain so after xyz years? Who knows? But it seems they have some realistic expectation of marriage, based on their family influence.
Kristyn 68
#64, #65, and #67
My Indian friend said one of the reason arranged marriages have a lower divorce rate in his country is because it is not just the couples that marry – it is a marriage between two families and so there is bigger support, more active investment from both families in making the marriage a success.
Joe 69
Lori @ 53:
It looks to me like you just proved Evan’s point a couple of posts above yours. If you’re a 9, the world is your oyster, but you’re still just dating the other 9s and ruling out the 4s and 5s who might actually treat you better than those 9s.
Selena 70
downtowngal,
You brought up an interesting point about family influence. If one grew up with parents who made “a practical match” based on social standing and other socio-economic compatibilty factors, would they be more likely to choose the same for themselves? Likewise, would someone who’s parents “fell madly in love” be more apt to use that as a benchmark in choosing a mate?
mic 71
Parents influence based on how they look (that’s called imprinting), how they treat each other, etc. What brought them together would seem to be way down the list.
A very good-looking man might be less likely to treat a woman well, but a rather unattractive man is not a good match for a very attractive woman in general. Relationships with serious disparities in looks are at higher risk for dissolution. The old wisdom is that it’s better for the woman if she is the more attractive partner. Maybe 9 woman with 7 man is the happy medium.
mic 72
One of probably multiple, if not very reliable, studies comparing marital satisfaction in arranged marriage vs. marriages of choice.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-133015418/marriage-satisfaction-and-wellness.html
Selena 73
@71
Millionaires and models being the exception, it’s been my observation that people who pair up are more often than not on parity in terms of attractiveness.
Test this for yourself Mic when you go to restaurants. How many couples do you see where one person is greatly more attractive than their partner? My guess is whatever your personal scale happens to be, you will notice most of the couples fall into the same range of attractiveness compared to each other.
JuJu 74
Joe (# 69):
I still fail to see what would motivate one to settle for less than one can offer. Good treatment, you say? As though there are no attractive people who are also kind?
Helen 75
Is passion in a LTR overrated?
Passion in and of itself is an essential part of human existence; it is what motivates us to live. But passion need not be directed only toward romantic love with one person forever. Passion can be directed toward work, family, hobbies and other activities.
It seems that one disease (too strong a word, but no other comes to mind now) in modern Western ways of thinking is that one should always feel passion for one’s lifelong partner; or else it is not a good relationship. Far more important is to feel friendship, comfort, enjoyment, and respect. If you have these things, you are fortunate indeed! Passion can be channeled elsewhere. Of course romantic movies and TV shows are enjoyable to watch (and make people think that real life should imitate them), but with all due respect, movies and TV shows aren’t as prominent in showing other types of passion, such as passion for science, literature, running, biking, gardening, dancing, etc.
In summary, I fear Lori is throwing away a good relationship in order to chase after something foolish that she thinks she should have because society / media / friends seem to be telling her she should.
Steve 76
75 comments and I haven’t read any yet. I can’t catch up!!!
Mikko Kemppe - Relationship Coach 77
Re: #75
I agree friendship, comfort, enjoyment, and respect, are all important to have in relationships. But I don’t understand why would you want to channel passion elsewhere and not to your relationship, as if to say you could not have it all? I.e. I believe it is possible to have a relationship where you feel friendship, comfort, enjoyment, respect, and life long passion toward your partner.
I understand our expectations to have the type of romance portrayed by some Hollywood movies every day is unrealistic of course, but I still think that by up-dating our relationships skills it is possible to maintain, cultivate, and grow your passionate feelings for your partner for a lifetime.
I understand that not everyone expects or wants that. But I don’t think we should make a value judgment on those who do or does who do not.
.-= Mikko Kemppe – Relationship Coach’s last blog ….Dating Tip To Succesful Independent Women – Video Blog =-.
Chanel 78
Sorry not to read all the comments (there are too many, lol!).
I was married for 15 years. We went from passion to comfort, then my ex-husband started having problems with mental illness. I was unable to stay in that relationship.
My point is: there are no guarantees, there is no way of knowing what will happen and how your mate will change over the course of time. Heck, there is no way of knowing how you yourself will change over the next 20 years.
lorihaah4 79
I wonder if there is a study (poll taken or one a relationship expert would be willing to take) – that would satistically indicate relationship status after time… divorced men and women – do you wish you had stayed. People married over 5 years – if it werent for societal conventions, finances and kids – would you leave…. anonymous of course – and listing questions such as “was it love at first site” “arranged” “do you feel you settled” “approximate your looks vs mates” all yes/no answers – because as Evan always says – its the ‘rules’ that matter – and statistics dont lie. If there are many people who are very happily married after 10 years – that is statistically indicative. I just dont know that many. And my friends who have professions where they work INSIDE peoples homes and get to know the families – say there are even more unhappily married couples than anyone realizes – who look like the picture perfect family from the outside. Of all the families ive known intimately – i only know a handful that are functional and BOTH (that is key here – BOTH) partners seem content.
Lance 80
Dammit, came into this one late, but I’ll still get my two cents in!
Evan, killer post, I have to agree. Choose comfort over passion for your marriages and long-long term relationships. Love what Honey said early on about making yourself happy and being pro-active about “generating” passion. Attraction is very much a skill, and if you can generate attraction, you can almost certainly stoke the fires in a LTR that’s had some great intimate moments. She gave some great examples.
Unfortunately, for Lori, she’s probably screwed despite our words of wisdom. Notice she say describes herself as being in a state of quiet desperation? That’s a killer, and not something that can be fixed. In her case, I would probably recommend moving on.
If I was married in a comfortable but somewhat passionless marriage, I would try the polyamory route. Evan’s post is a great argument for it.
lorihaah4 81
thats funny Lance – polyamory route – there is a self help guru online – forget his name – and that is his solution. Would never work with kids involved. If u are single, or married without kids – anything is game if both adults were consenting. But once you have children -all rules change. I try to be a good role model – which is really where all the problems rest – if you were a child – would you want to see your parents together, tho a mom who feigns any intimate, loving gestures toward your dad (im sure kids sense falsities), but comfy cozy in nice home, with a nuclear family…. or would you prefer to see your mom have a chance for happiness – whether alone or with a new man in the future… but take all the issues that go along with it – one parent relocating, etc. I hear children, now adults, of divorce – say they wish their parents stayed regardless or any issues. And ive heard adult kids of divorce say – THANK GOD my parents got divorced -they were miserable. What it all comes down to in the end is – THINK LONG AND HARD before you marry if you are questioning anything at all. As Chanel said – there are no guarantees – and as i can attest – once you involve children – your not making choices for yourself alone any longer. It becomes an intricate web where every choice you make affects young, innocent bystanders.
honey 82
I’m not poly (nor do I want kids) but I have known lots of poly folks and they all believe it’s better for kids to have a stable, loving “community” of more than two adults. Of course, for this to work, it has to be a FUNCTIONAL poly relationship – but then, so many “traditional” marriages aren’t functional, really I don’t see how polyamory would be any more of a negative impact on kids than anything else.
Selena 83
For polyamory to work wouldn’t both individuals have to be in the ‘comfort’ stage? Would someone who was passionate about their spouse by open to this? Lori, do you think your husband would consider the polyamory lifestyle?
mic 84
Again, matching on looks is real (e.g., quite common) and called assortative mating on physical attractiveness. Of course some very good-looking people are nice, but odds are that such individuals go off the market quickly and stay off it. With online dating, there are cues to inner goodness, from style to of course what people write about themselves, if physical attraction and scarcity don’t blind the evaluator.
Lori, all those questions you asked probably have been posed before. There is research on happiness after divorce, for example, and also long-term marital happiness (not a lot of very happy couples). There’s no clear connection between love at first sight and marital satisfaction. Partner-rated physical attractiveness is plentiful in the literature and linked to marital satisfaction, but such ratings tend to involve positive illusions and don’t much address assortative mating on PA, if that’s on your mind.
Marital Satisfaction and Passionate Love
http://spr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/1/139
Lance 85
To add, I think marriages are designed for comfort, family building, and inherently more about safety and stability than passion. I’m sure the 50 year passionate marriage exists, but they’re not the majority. I did recently met a couple who’s been married 14 years and they have an exceptionally passionate marriage (with 1 kid), so that’s nice.
My system would be marry for the stability and intimacy, fulfill my passionate needs after X number of years (say 7 years) with another partner. My wife would of course be allowed the same.
Latest from Lance…Couple Use Emoticons To Replace Intimacy and Affection In Their Relationship
Sayanta 86
Honey- #82-
I agree that kids need a community of adults. People did have that for a long time with extended families and close-knit neighborhoods, before the suburban sprawl. Were people happier then? It’s hard to say….it depends on whether the adults in the family/community are well-adjusted. If not (and that’s def possible), it’s hell times ten.
Curly Girl 87
Lance@84: Your wife would be “allowed”? Who is doing the “allowing”?
A-L 88
In #84 Lance wrote, “My system would be marry for the stability and intimacy, fulfill my passionate needs after X number of years (say 7 years) with another partner. My wife would of course be allowed the same.”
Will you discuss your polyamorous intentions prior to getting engaged? What measures would you take to prevent the polyamory from destabilizing the stability and intimacy you’d been building for the previous 7 years?
Dope 89
@Selena
Is it wrong to attach stigma to divorce? Is divorce so wonderful and desirable that we want to view it through a judgmentally neutral lense? Is it not, at the very least, nearly always representative of a huge failure of judgment? Should we celebrate failure?
JuJu 90
#89
Wow!
Yes, of course, wouldn’t it be much more productive to engage in self-flagellation over it until the end of one’s life…
JuJu 91
Lance,
but that’s not marriage anymore.
Lance 92
@Curly Girl: It’d be mutual consent, but of course in reality she would be doing the “allowing.”
@JuJu: Sure it would. We define our relationships, not everyone else.
@A-L: Of course there would be discussion. Probably at length. Why would polyamory destabilize the relationship? I see it as an enhancement.
mic 93
@86: People weren’t less happy, and the depression rate was lower. But there are methodological quibbles with that, just as there are with the idea that people used to dress better
Sayanta 94
“People who are generally satisfied in life are satisfied in marriage. People who are generally dissatisfied in life are dissatisfied in marriage. ”
I forgot to mention Evan- this is perfect- simple, good common sense that people forget when they get blinded by “chemistry.”
Sayanta 95
at 93- people definitely dresssed better! Give me Laura Ingalls Wilder’s wardrobe anyday!
Joe 96
Juju (74)
If you’re a 9 and all the other 9s you’ve been dating have treated you poorly, what do you think? Should you keep dating the 9s or should you branch out a little?
JuJu 97
Wow, Joe, quite a lot of assumptions you are making there!
lorihaah4 98
JuJu 97 & 74 – Joe – 96 -
I agree with JuJu – there are certainly people who are both attractive and kind, I know several. And really – all this talk of 9′s etc.. and looks – its all such a personal issue – a man who is a9 to one may well be a 4 to my friend vice versa… It all goes back to CHEMISTRY – taking into account that most people are able to make a pretty decent call on if someone is attractive ENOUGH to date in the first few moments they meet them. When i was dated – i knew within the first 2 minutes if i could ever sleep with a man. As i have aged, my taste for what is attractive in a man have evolved as have I. And as i previously stated, there were men i had no AVERSION to their looks, but did not think were handsome enough to date, they were maybe 7′s, who were persistent at pursuing me, that i ended up being the MOST attracted to over the long term. These men were 6 or 7′s lookswise – but they acted as tho they were 9s or 10′s – very confident, self assured, but NOT COCKY, charming, cool, very charismatic – and that made them SEXIER than several true 10′s I knew – - so really – the rating system is inherently FLAWED – you have to just be sure you have CHEMISTRY OF PERSONALITIES from the beginning. Nothing is less attractive than men who are unsure of themselves or needy. So if your a 6, stop dissecting your looks, be comfortable in your skin, be happy with who YOU are, be YOURSELF…everyone else’s job is taken.
Joe 99
Juju, if you look back, I was originally responding to Lori’s post which referred to her “9″ friends being ill-treated.
Katherine SOLOdotMOM 100
What a great article! Thanks for sharing this. I already believed it… I think… but needed it reinforced.
My current relationship is the most serious and at seven months it breaks records for any I have had in the four plus years since my divorce. I have often described it as “comfortable” not that I am not attracted to him… just we have four kids (between us) and busy lives and have learned to appreciate the stability of each other and the relationship – more-so than chemistry per se’.
This nails it for where I am presently and confirmation is always a good thing.
Heather 101
Now I know why I’m not married and why none of my relationships has worked in the long run. I used to not have a problem with ‘adapting’ to men who pursued me, hence were truly interested and were worth my time having feelings for. I didn’t regard this as ‘settling’ before, but now, after several failed/sexless LTRs, I do. I’m on the opposite track from other people – I didn’t come to seek comfort after passion alone proved inadequate. I’m looking for the passion that’s been sorely missing from all of my comfortable relationships. Now you’re telling me I’ll never have that? What a bummer!
JuJu 102
You know, I remember I once started dating this guy, who initially seemed quite promising compatibility-wise, and I kept telling my best friend how comfortable I feel with the guy. Well, after having sex with him, I suddenly thought to myself, that if the guy never calls me again, I couldn’t care less. That is not the way I am supposed to feel! It was then that I understood that the reason I felt so comfortable in the first place was because I didn’t really care what kind of impression I was making on him.
valmont 103
this article by michelle langley hits the nail on the head
http://ezinearticles.com/comment.php?Bad-Girls:-Lets-Be-Honest-Ladies,-Arent-You-Only-Into-Him-Because-Hes-Not-Into-You?&id=87022
When someone tells you “I love you but I’m not in love with you” that means that they are taken you for granted and are too comfortable in the relationship. they start seeing their husbands as “boring” and not exciting because he is too available, too predictable and shares too much intimacy. The men in their lives stop being so mysterious, and impressive. The “wow” effect is gone and the women lose respect/admiration/submissiveness towards their men because of too much familiarity.
Warmheart 104
Before I begin, Evan, you couldn’t be more right.
It is about appreciating what we have and not pining for what we don’t have.
After 20 years in a verbally abusive marriage, 5 years of disappointing post divorce dating and finally the best – Evan and Allison advice in the nick of time- I have met a wonderful man. Not perfect, but perfect for me. I sooo appreciate his loving way with me and can live with the imperfections. It makes so much sense, I do not see anything greener – just a different shades around me that do not draw my attention at all. I didn’t settle, I just came to understand that no one can be perfect (myself included) and its about how we relate and care for one another that is the most important. Those dating years helped me to appreciate this man even more. And that appreciation makes me love and feel more passion every day towards him because his heart wants to protect mine. Thank you Evan, I hope more folks can find contentment with their mates or new ones through you.
SAM624443 105
I recently ended a 7+ year relationship (1 1/2 years of it married) to a man I have / had great chemistry and physical attraction with but between the increased overuse of alcohol and pot and the neverending 'disharmony' with my kids, he is no longer the person I need him to be. A person I've known for many years recently had his marriage end and proceeded to tell me one day that he's had a crush on me for 20+ years and the next day told me he loves me. We've spent the last several months talking and getting to know each other and while he is the PERFECT guy in respects to BEING the person I need him to be, I feel no chemistry or physical attraction – something I feel I need to take this growing friendship to the next level that he'd love to see it at. We had a real 'date' recently and it went perfectly and (I'm not getting any younger – late 40's), I was okay with it moving to the bedroom in hopes that maybe that 'spark' could be found there. It wasn't. I feel a long term relationship has to have a balance of both – the compatability AND the chemistry (what this whole post was originally about). I ended the first relationship as it was missing the one component for basically the same (but opposite in a sense) reason that I don't see this new relationship working – as much as I'd like it to. I wish there really was such thing as a 'love potion' but,sadly, you can't MAKE those attraction feelings happen if they aren't there to SOME DEGREE to begin with.
CJ 106
What a great debate!
CJ 107
This is a very challenging topic, but an interesting one. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the individual and what they value. some may value comfort and some may value sparks. I personally have been in both types of relationships and I would choose sparks any and every day. Being with someone where i had no attraction and no chemistry felt like i was in prison. I moved states as an excuse, just to avoid having to hurt him! But this is my own experience.
I would have to negate the idea that passion is sex, looks etc. Like others have mentioned, it is an ineffable quality. It’s something that just is or isn’t. It’s there or it’s not. You could put two complete strangers next to one another who look identical, sound identical etc, and for some strange reason, one may have more of a pull than the other.
I would also have to disagree with the notion that passion is simply an outward expression of someone that is not happy with themselves or looking to feel something for themselves that they are missing. I don’t believe that this is related to passion whatsoever.
Although feedback and rolling an idea around with people is sometimes useful in trying to get things straight in your own head, it can also do more harm than good. talk to people for sure, gain others opinions, never compare. But just remember that each and every one of our opinions is nothing but a projection. Your best bet, trust and listen to yourself, and by far, listen to your heart…..it always speaks the truth.
Karl R 108
CJ said: (#107)
“Being with someone where i had no attraction and no chemistry felt like i was in prison.”
If you have to choose between a relationship with zero passion or one with zero comfort, choose to remain single.
My girlfriend was in a relationship which was passionate, but lacked comfort. As you would expect, fights were common. He constantly accused her of cheating on him with her male friends and colleagues. And when she was upset because her mother was dying of cancer, he told her to “grow up.”
A relationship without passion may feel like a prison, but one without comfort feels like a continuous assault.
We’re not trying to discuss the ugly extremes (where the decision is quite obvious). All of us want the fantasy relationship where there’s loads of passion and comfort. But most of us face a reality that won’t match our fantasies. However, we probably will be able to find a relationship that has some passion and some comfort (in varying degrees). Therefore, we’ll do better if we have some understanding of which of those will serve us better.
CJ said: (#107)
“some may value comfort and some may value sparks. I personally have been in both types of relationships and I would choose sparks any and every day.”
My girlfriend is currently facing five different crises which are collectively taxing her time, energy, finances, emotions and physical health. I’m facing three which are taxing my time and energy. Since we’re both exhausted and under strain, it would be easy for us to start blowing up at each other … which would give her a sixth crisis and me a fourth.
Instead, we have each other for support. This is particularly important for her, since she can’t trust her boss (a contributing factor in one crisis), and she feels like her two best friends have abandoned her (in the face of another crisis).
The passion in our relationship creates an entertaining, temporary diversion from the problems … but it’s not providing solutions.
Goldie 109
I have a question, for EMK as well as the regular commenters. In a large number of comments/posts, I see chemistry getting a bum rap on this blog. Can someone tell me this blog’s definition of chemistry, because I think I’m missing something. Do you guys mean the spark/butterflies in your stomach thing, something along those lines?
I’ve read a book recently (“Is He Mr. Right?” by Mira Kirshenbaum) that is all built around determining whether you have chemistry with a man, and the author’s advice is not to pursue an LTR with the person if no chemistry is present. However she defines chemistry as something determined by five specific conditions, which are, if I remember them correctly:
1) being comfortable together/easy to get close
2) trust
3) feeling that it’s fun to be together
4) mutual physical affection/passion
5) mutual respect
These seem pretty sound to me… Do you guys mean something else when you say “chemistry”? Thanks.
Karl R 110
Goldie said: (#109)
“Can someone tell me this blog’s definition of chemistry,”
I can’t remember ever hearing anyone associate trust or mutual respect with chemistry, even if they’re talking about the lack of chemistry.
Different people interpret “chemistry” in different ways, but it seems to be most often associated with physical affection, sexual attraction and passion. It’s associated with “fun to be together” fairly frequently, and occasionally associated with “easy to get close.”
It’s occasionally associated with respect, in the sense “If I don’t respect the other person, I feel no chemistry toward that person.” I’ve never heard anybody refer to a lack of chemistry when the other person didn’t respect them. In some cases, they’ll say the chemistry is great, even though the other person is showing them no respect, distancing themselves, etc.
I prefer to avoid using the word, since it seems easy to misinterpret.
C. 111
Goldie I would say “trust” and “mutual respect” are separate from chemistry. I’ve had chemistry with guys because they were fun and attractive and sexy, but I couldn’t trust or rely on them when I was in a bind. On the flip side, I’ve had guy friends that are always helpful and there for me and there is mutual respect between us, yet no chemistry. Thats the rub.
Ruby 112
Goldie, the best definition of “chemistry” that I’ve read was in Judith Sills’ book, A Fine Romance. Basically, chemistry is a combination of liking and lust, and hopefully, it’s mutual. She writes that chemistry can be a help or a hindrance, depending on how you define it. If you define it as a magical and uncontrollable rush of passion, or you’re only able to feel it for the wrong people, then it’s a hindrance. But if you define it as a sense of connection, liking, comfort, interest, and sexual attraction, and find a number of people attractive, then it’s essential.
Goldie 113
Thanks guys. In that case, I vote for the golden medium, aka Selena’s #40.
So, marrying for the sense of comfort works, but some minimal affection still has to be there. She wasn’t head over heels in love with him, but she didn’t find him physically repulsive, either.
Since I’m new at dating, but not so new at working for a living, I’d rather comment on this part of EMK’s post:
“Chances are, you’re compromising at your job – with your pay, your hours, your co-workers, your location, your status, your very career itself.
The alternative to this compromise is called unemployment (or, maybe, self-employment). Either way, it’s a lonely road.”
Yes, we have to compromise. But, only to a point. After a certain point, we have to draw the line. I’ve been through two periods in my life where I had to work random jobs – in college, and after my oldest son was born and I lost my job, and couldn’t find another one in my area in our small town. One thing I learned from that experience, is to never, if I can help it at all, take a job that I hate. Or a job that bores me to tears. I can go for a paycut, smaller company, less benefits, more stress, night shifts, far location, and it will still work out well if the job itself is something I more or less like. But I cannot do something that I do not enjoy doing whatsoever. It is a recipe for disaster. I put in ten times as much energy to do this job, because I pretty much have to force myself to do it; and I end up with one-tenth of my usual success and recognition, because, no matter how hard I try, I cannot get really good at something I cannot stand doing. Or at something that bores me out of my skull while I’m doing it.
Now imagine that your job has feelings, and it knows that you don’t like it, that it bores you to death, that you’re only in it for the paycheck, and will probably give your two-week notice and walk out as soon as something better comes along. That’s what I imagine some of those “chemistry-less” unions to be. Not good for either side, IMO.
With that said, my own Mom married my Dad because she thought he was good marriage material, even though she did not have much of “the spark” at the time. Over their 40-some years together, he grew on her. She suddenly developed feelings. They’re still together and happy, and both look very much in love with each other
I think it needs to be, not “passion vs. comfort”, but a little of both combined.
C. 114
I don’t think anyone is saying we should be in ‘chemistry-less’ unions, just that we shouldn’t be so blinded by passion that we miss the red-flags. Attraction and sexual compatibility is important, and I have felt that with a lot of guys..but AFTER I am already hot for a guy I always ask myself, “would this guy get out of bed/leave work and come help me if I was stranded on the side of the road with car trouble?” and that determines if we have a future.
Helen 115
Something struck me as strange and a bit off in Lori’s original letter. It made me think that the real issue had nothing to do with either passion or comfort, but discontent from something else.
Why do I say this? Because I’ve known my husband for as long as Lori has known hers. There were NEVER fireworks, but there were always respect, love, affection, laughs, good humor, good times, and a deep trust in each other. And I’m very happy and consider myself extremely fortunate. I don’t need or want fireworks; I’m busy enough as it is (or maybe I’m getting old and just can’t handle it).
So the fact that after 13 years, Lori doesn’t feel content with what she has, makes me think that something other than passion is missing from her relationship. Do they not respect each other? Is there not mutual trust? If she’s known him this long, she would have realized that respect and trust are much more important than fireworks. So the fact that she doesn’t mention these makes me wonder. Her descriptor “great guy” means close to nothing.
Selena 116
It’s been my experience relationships based almost solely on sexual attraction burn out fairly quickly – long before they get to the “partner” stage. Really that’s what the first 3-12 months of dating is FOR – to see if there is more to it beyond sexual attraction. Unless you are the type to marry someone you’ve only known a month or two, this really isn’t worth a debate.
Regina 117
EXCELLENT post Evan! What you wrote makes me think of the 80/20 Rule: people enter into a relationship hoping to get 100% of what they are looking for. If they are lucky, they end up with 80%. Rather than being happy and content with what they have, they leave the 80% (comfort), in search of the 20% (passion) that they’re missing. When (if) they find it, they are still not happy because they realized that once the dust has settled, they were actually better off with the 80% that they gave up.
Mandy 118
I stubled upon this thread looking for my own answers to a similar situation. I appreciate all of the comments, as I learn best from others. With such wonderful insight, I find myself thinking one thing one minute and opposite the next after an insightful post. I have decided to me, chemistry is about so much more than physical attraction. I am 33, a single mom (but the dad is in the picture for our daughter), and have never been married. I have to admit most of my relationships have been fairly passionate, some more than others. As far as chemistry goes though, I usually can figure out if it’s there, that “thing” you feel that you can’t explain, fairly soon after meeting someone. And normally, I move on if there is no chemistry. BUt after having been in many recent relationships with lots of chemsitry, some comfortableness, but mostly rocky and unstable, I decided to give the current guy I’m dating more of a chance than I normally would. That said, of course he is practically the perfect guy, everything a woman would want in a man, thoughtful, sincere, reliable, trustworthy, good looking, nice body, outgoing…you name it…Of course here’s the BUT…I just can not force myself to have that “feeling” about him, that indescribable feeling where you can’t wait to see him or talk to him or hear from him, etc. It’s been 5 months and since month one I have been on and off in contemplating whether or not to continue the relationship…Of course he is in it 100% and has already asked about living together, which I said I”m not ready for, has told me he loved me, to which I’ve replied, I know I love you as a person, I think you are an amazing person, but I’m not sure that “I’m in love with you”…I know that sounds cliche, but I don’t know how else to say it, and I want to be honest….He just keeps saying we will take things slow then, knowing I have some apprehensions (think he doesn’t wanna lose me). Some people sounds harsh in response to Lori’s email, and it’s clear from her posts, she’s a good person with a good heart, torn and trying to do right by the people she loves and that love her (I too have my daughter in mind, as she has grown to really like my boyfriend, and yes, I should have tried harder to not let her get close to him at all, easier said than done when trying to work on having a LTR.). IT is a very perplexing issue, and Evan first post really saddened me when he gave the example about the index card with Passion on one side and comfort on the other…I guess I remain hopeful that’s it not one or the other. And I think passion and chemistry are different, but for the purposes of this thread can be used interchangably…As I do when I talk to people about this “problem”…As lacking the passion or chemistry, however you want to word it. At any rate, I don’t think it’s fair to my partner, I think he deserves more than I give to him, I think someone will have that “I can’t wait to see you” attitude about him that I do not…The comfort of the love, respect and on and on is such a nice change, yet I still find myself crying at times, knowing I’m still not totally happy, even with a guy who has all the qualities I thought I wanted, and maybe still do. Do I feel selfish? Yes! Confused, wondering what’s wrong with me, and why can’t I appreciate all that is good in him? YES! And some weeks I do just appreciate him and I’m content…and other weeks I”m trying to figure out what to say to break things off with him, but scared at what a great guy I would give up. I don’t feel I would be “settling” to end up with him, as he treats me wonderful…I do however feel like I would be just being complacent, like the passive agressive some talked about. And I think I’ve decided complacent will probably not get me through on a relationship for very long. To each is their own I guess, thanks for all the insight and best of luck to Lori, I think women often are so worried about everyone else being happy, they often forget themselves…but having children I know sometimes you have to make complete selfless decisions..but whatever you decide, I think your kids will be ok…as long as you and your husband can but the kids first whether it in a marriage or divorce.
P 119
I’m always taken aback when I read statements from people desiring both passion and comfort in their relationships, when in reality they are mutually exclusive items from a time perspective. All relationships devolve from passionate ones to comfortable ones, or they dissolve…there is no “both” to be had. This is plain and simple logic…and no amount of believing you are entitled to both or could somehow find both will allow you to find this mix together. This is an incredibly unpopular concept to most because for some reason we are taught we can have EVERYTHING, even if the basic concept cannot coexist together. Allow me to explain:
One of the key components of passion is excitement. Excitement has, as one of its core elements, an amount of fear associated with it. Fear of loss, fear of danger, fear of non-reciprocation, and so on. One of the other core elements of excitement is anticipation–a desire for something not yet discovered or had.
Now, let’s look at comfort (and security). By definition, comfort is a LACK of excitement…because in order to feel comfortable, one cannot feel fear. In addition, there is a lack of anticipation, which ties into the fact that to be comfortable, what you feel comfortable with does not contain an unknown quantity or quality to it and therefore there is nothing to anticipate.
Ask yourself this: Would BASE jumping be exciting if you absolutely knew there was no (or little) chance you could be hurt? Would it be exciting to watch racing if there wasn’t the chance that there might be a wreck and you knew from the beginning who was going to win? Of course not…these things would be made into everyday activities like walking across a room. Unexciting…”boring” even, depending on how you define that or if excitement is what you value most.
I’ve heard lots of people talk about maintaining passion within their relationships, but when really talked to what I’ve tended to discover is that those people make the choice of commitment with this person, do become comfortable with this person (and therefore, the excitement/passion isn’t necessarily GENERATED by this PERSON or the RELATIONSHIP itself anymore), but become passionate about a LIFE with this person and facing LIFE challenges with someone at their side. The passion (and therefore excitement) is derived from the unknowns and changes in LIFE, not from the partner themselves, with the commitment to facing those together holding the union together.
Think of it this way; plenty of people have experienced something very exciting and had a passionate encounter with their significant other afterwards, even though the significant other did not actually CAUSE the excitement. Its the same concept and I believe the mentality of focusing the excitement of LIFE into a relationship is what people are actually doing when they claim they are maintaining passion in their relationship. They maintain a commitment to the relationship and focus the positive aspects of any excitement in life back into the relationship.
MOST people as it seems don’t do this–they look to their relationship to CAUSE them to feel passionate. After they are off the internal drug-induced high of their initial relationship stages, this is a doomed cause and cannot succeed (unless you are one of the less than 1% of the population that seems to have a short circuit in that respect). Once they start to feel comfortable with their partner by KNOWING them and believing themselves secure, that person can never CAUSE excitement–and if they DO, then you are no longer comfortable with them. That desire for passion/excitement simply isn’t compatible with the concept of comfort. EVENTS can cause excitement WITHIN the relationship, but not the person themself (if you indeed feel comfortable with them).
All of this relates back to the whole concept that people look to their relationship to MAKE them FEEL a certain way. Its an impossible quest and one that will always lead to disappointment.
Doctor M 120
Thank you! I just read this at the exact minute and moment in time that I needed it. An eye opener. Your words really reached!! OMG!!! A thousand thanks!!!!
Lisa 121
Wow what a debate… In my experience people that have to outright defend marrying for comfort are the one’s that have done just that… I’ve know people married “for comfort or for security” and I don’t know one that is really satisfied with their marriage. The use alcohol, working all the time, eating, smoking etc to fill the gap that they “know” is b/c they married for reason’s other than romantic true love. Passion can be a ego trip or it can be a true heart felt feeling… It’s just a word and for everyone can be different from a “feeling” point of view. I love reading about the illusion of romance b/c what really is going on is that the “mind” is getting what it wants “for the moment”(passion) and if you wait out the “honeymoon” stage you will find out if you have the a workable, compatible and true romantic relationship. Too many people marry too soon….. and if she know “she wasn’t in love with him” from the beginning then I say the Woman knows what she is saying. I have had passion that fizzled and I’ve had passion that grew from just friendship. The passion that grew outlasts the passion that started out as fireworks… does that mean it was comfort “not at all”. And this is based on a premise that marriages should last a lifetime.. reality is they don’t a lot of the times. People grow and change it is crazy to think that “every marriage” should last forever. One thing is important in my life, it is how I love myself and others is what matters, not the duration of the “commitment”. Unless you need to stay due to religion or other reasons.. I’m not being negative just realistic. I can say I’d rather be alone than with someone that is staying with me out of obligation or religion or for that matter comfort… That in itself is a just insulting. There are different kinds of love… the brain can be mapped to tell attachment love, romantic love, and sexual love. I’d bet lots of people marry for attachment love. I can say from a child that grew up in a home where my mother married my father b/c he loved her ( she didn’t love him) and she knew he would give her a life she wouldn’t have otherwise ( family and home) I can say that even though they are still together ( not happily), I have all kinds of issues with relationship b/c I knew all along she didn’t love him the way people can love each other romantically. Marrying for comfort hasn’t worked for me… and I chose not to do it again. But we all have our choices and have to live with them. I think it is limiting to think you can’t have romance and compatibility – and for me “comfort” just needs to be out of the equation….b/c we can all be comfortable with status quo or even comfortable with dysfunction just b/c we don’t want to go through what we need to to move out of it……or b/c we just don’t want to be out on the dating scene again…
vnon 122
Honestly, this is difficult. I’m 18 but I’ve watched my parents when my mom died and before. I’ve dated since I was 13, I’ve always been boy crazy. I’ve dated guys who I felt like if I wasn’t next to in the next five minutes, I’d scream. Love is one of those things that has always interested me. I’ve watched my godmom go through life single because she is so content. I’ve seen my parents’ friends go through shitty marriages and be happy single and some people who are happily comfortable.
Now, I am just 18. But I met this kid the very first week of college. He took my breath away the first night. The second night I hated him because I thought he was clingy and stupid. Next thing I know, the third night I was madly in love with him. He kissed me on the fourth morning for the first time. I freaked. Fireworks, explosions all sorts of passion went all over. Over time, he became my best friend and my lover. We’ve now been dating for 8 months. I found this article because I was wondering if I did still have passion for him or just pure compatibility. Something in me knew the very first night I met him how much I could love him. And now I know, I am purely compatible with him but that doesn’t mean the sparks are gone forever. They come in waves. Sometimes I think he is a total dork and doesn’t deserve me. Sometimes I can’t believe how lucky I am. I know I look at him and think about how great of a dad he would be.
It comes down to both, trading off frequently. We have periods where we just can’t get enough of each other. Then I have periods where I want to spend time alone.
Its a total balancing act. This guy has taught me a lot about sincere and deep love. After watching so many marriages and relationships from such a young age, it seems more right than I can really describe. Balance is all it takes.
jprit 123
As a passionate person, I have been in a passionless relationship (from the start) and I can honestly say that it was the most soul sucking experience I have ever endured. At the time, it destroyed my self esteem because I constantly interrogated myself for not loving this wonderful person. It destroyed my ex-partners self-esteem as I could not give him the love that he truly deserved. The feeling of emptiness started to take control of my life and I lost ambition in many other life domains. I felt exhausted from constantly trying to “will” myself into feeling passion. I was even quite creative and at some points I did feel some little “sparks” but they never lasted. Ultimately I was too “comfortable” to leave. But I had to leave because living a passionless life is not living life at all. Once I was honest with myself and got the courage to break things off, I began to feel more alive again. For years I questioned my decision but today, in my heart, I do not have any regrets. Well, I do regret not breaking it off sooner, but I needed that experience as a learning experience. If you do not have passion from the start, it is nearly impossible to attain later on and it will only manifest into a life of emptiness. Yes, passion may die even for those who experience it in the begin but regardless, without passion life stagnates. Honestly, I’d rather be alone then in a passionless and loveless relationship. I believe that you cannot respect yourself or build true confidence until you listen your heart and are truly honest with yourself about this.
CBK/Single's Minister 124
Evan…you are absolutely right and your posts are so refreshing! Unfortunately, as I read through these comments, I realize that those who disagree with you, are not really comprehending what you’re saying. Your wisdom is something that can not be taught, it MUST be experienced. When I finally got it, I met and married a wonderful man that I can’t imagine being without!
As far as a “9″ having a larger dating pool than a 4 — this is right. However, a larger dating pool based on physical attractiveness is a big problem. That “9″ will certainly have more opportunities for heartbreak and disappointment. Why? Because they’re being chosen because they are a “9.” The relationship is based on the superficial and will ultimately FAIL. Believe me, when it comes to finding the right person, the playing field is even — whether you’re a ”2” or a ”10.”
Peach2 125
Lori,
By reading your replies it sounds like you already know what you want to do. Just be sure you have done everything on your part to make your marriage work because divorce is probably one of the most traumatic events you can put your family through.
It sounds like you have a great guy, its really hard to find someone who can love you unconditionally. Of course, that is no reason to stay in your relationship(I’ve been in your shoes before). I do believe you are experiencing a lot of pain and guilt caused by the void in your heart. I do feel your pain and I have been there.
Truthfully speaking, You created this situation… I would really suggest working on yourself before deciding to divorce him. You have the chance to save yourself and your family a lot of pain. What is it you really want out of life Lori? The only one that can fill that void in your heart is you. Practice loving yourself(not just reading books on self love) but actually doing it and see where that takes you and your family before making any irrational decisions based off of emotions.
I know your happiness is important but too many people now days care about their own happiness. The term “Happiness” can be dangerous. Happiness is just an emotion, it comes and goes, just like fear,passion,joy, boredom,ect.. Without trying to sound too deep, I think what you are looking for is inner peace and that still can be found in the situation you are in.
Joel 126
Lori,I do beieve there is ALOT to be said being in a comfort relationship.You like many women out there seek a Mister “over the top” feeling or being in “Love” again. Well its nice to “think” all of that and that you”could” get another great or Hot Guy that really turns your crank but…..what if you leave everything you have for that Guy or find him later, to find out that Mr. Hot has eyes for other women, knows he can get them and why be stuck with a woman with a couple young kids when he could move on quite easily to other hot chicks….leaving you hopelessly in love but being now the one who gets dumped the same way you would dump your Husband. Karma inn this life has a way of working like that Lori,be carefull what you wish for.Just cause you may get the butterfly feelings does’nt mean “he” gets them too. Believe me once the Rose begins to wilt after a bit of time and the Bullshit starts or your weekend again with the Kids…who are’nt in fact his anyway he’s going to go off and do stuff with his friends instead.
There is alot to be said for your comfort relationship and you could be out there kissing alot of Frogs and not one of the will turn into the Prince you so desire. Or if he does…he may just hop away and hunt in a different pond,and Lori to give up all you have now to be alone later wishing you had made better choices would be wayy more empty feeling than what you have now.
I speak this from Experience and seeing it happen many times over. Thing is one you leave….there is no going back, most any Man would never take you back after leaving him and breeching the trust of the relationship.
Think again dear Girl before you fill your selfish heart with a Fantasy. Think of your children and perhaps even Grandchildren and enjoying them with a “stranger”?…….. ya….good luck with that
John 127
Lori…. I feel all of what you putting out there. Passion vs All of those other things. Passion is such a volatile emotion. Are you greedy, selfish to want passion? Nope…. it is just that the stakes are so much higher now. All of those years into the marriage, the children. I feel that you getting into this life relationship was certainly understandable. You have a man who loves you so much…..Has passion for you…. Why can’t it develop in you? Take a chance and possibly passion will grow. As you have told us…. Many things have grown just not the passion. Some of these comments seem to think that you are looking for some hot stud to fulfill your life. I certainly do not think you are that shallow, nor do I think that is what you are looking for. It is that part of your heart that has been living in the shadows of your relationship. You are so correct…. Loving someone and not being In Love with them is understandable and oh so hard…. You have some very difficult decisions to make. Go deep inside and make it. You sound like a very caring un selfish woman……
MissB 128
I happened to come across this blog looking for insight to my current situation, which is similar to Lori’s. I am in my late 20′s, finishing up my master’s degree and have been dating a wonderful man for almost 3 years. We never had sparks (at least I didnt & he is aware of this), we never even had a “honeymoon” phase. I have been saying for over a year that he has no passion and that I am a person who likes/needs passion. He is a good guy and “puts up” with a lot from me, but we are never intimate/passionate. We have only had sex maybe 5-10 times in the past 2 years, definitly only 2 in the past year. In my opinion this is ridiculous for any “new” relationship. I go through phases were I give up trying to fix anything and fall into a comfort zone. At this point I feel like I couldn’t honestly say yes if he asked me to marry him becasue I don’t want to be “Stuck” in a passionless relationship, but the thought of starting all over scares me and I feel that I am just being unreasonable and selfish and just need to “tough it out”.
I know I must really care about my boyfriend and know that he is a special find, but I don’t feel “in love” with him. As Lori said, I wish I had a magic wand that would help me to be “in love” with him and improve our lack of sex life.
Julie 129
Hello all,
I might be late to the post, but I am definitely in need of advice.
What do you do if you are on the receiving end of this kind of relationship? I have been with my man for almost two years (we live together and are in our late 20′s). He reminds me a lot of who Evan used to be — dated a lot of women, always looking for that spark. Needless to say, those relationships fizzled, and finally, he found me. He did all of the things in the beginning that Evan says a boyfriend should do. He told me he loved me, took me on a trip out of state to meet his family, and asked me to move in with him. And still today, he tells me that he is “not going anywhere.”
He told a friend recently, however, that although he loves me, and says we’re close, and considers me as his best friend and teammate, that he feels something is missing, and believes it is the passion. To me, this is confusing, because we have a good sex life, and I am constantly doing things/making romantic gestures to brighten up his day. He also told his friend that he knows it would affect me deeply if he hit the re-start button on his life again and can’t let me down. Wow, so how the heck am I suppose to feel? I keep reading all of these posts from people who lack the passion from their partner’s, and here I am on the receiving end of all of it. This knowledge completely depresses me, and I am not sure what to do.
I love him very much, but it hurts to think he doesn’t feel as strongly toward me. Yet, as I mentioned, it is confusing because he talks about a future with me openly.
So, what does someone on the receiving end do? Is it worth it to stay if the other person loves you and says they don’t want to leave?
Ronke 130
Evan,
I dont know. I made the comfort choice b4. he would drive me to chemo if needed. I was unhappy and depressed it was so sad. I would never do it again. I feel lucky enough to b an attractive women so that i do attract lots of men and can b choosey more than the average women. but im am also smart enough to choose wisely my exhusband is a great father. hats off to him. I would not choose a partner based on comfort because like earlier mentioned it a long time to be with someone your just comfortable with and if you have no passion with them it will turn into hate real quick with just comfort. It has to be a mix not either or. I love your advise and your one of the best but u seem a lil on the negative worst case senario side sometimes…
ET 131
“I am not going to prostitute myself for rest of my life to have a relationship.” -NN-
I have been in a marriage of comfort for eight years and I couldn’t agree more with this statement. The entire time that I have been with my husband I have felt exactly this way, that I was prostituting myself to pay for comfort. I had an extremely bad family life growing up and felt that I wanted the security of a stable and loving family. I have the security of family. My husband is faithful and for the most part is caring. But I feel like I’ve given up almost ten years of my life where I wasn’t really living. Now there is NO sex in our marriage. Eventually, I just couldn’t force myself to do it anymore. I don’t dream of fairy tale love and I don’t make projections onto other peoples lives which I then envy. I am a firm believer in realistic expectations. But I also feel trapped. I love my husband but I am not in love with him and I feel like I’ve been caged and that my life isn’t going anywhere. Whats worse is that because of other compromises I made to be in the relationship even if I decided to leave him I couldn’t because I don’t have the financial resources or ability to be independent. In other words, I’m stuck with it. Nothing I can do.
Frankly, I think that after five or seven years of marraige ones perspective can be A LOT different than it was after the first year. I think it takes a lot of time and space for one to be able to objectively reflect on the decisions one made and think about all the things that were given up and also gained through compromises throughout the relationship. Over time people change, their needs change, relationships have to be continually renegotiated or they simply fail. That is the work part of a relationship. But over time one also has the opportunity to reflect on who they are and what their needs are. We don’t always know what our needs are. Even if we just have a vague feeling, unless it can be expressed to a partner chances are it will never be met. So, that time allows us to really learn about ourselves and think about what we might have done differently in order to have our needs met.
I really don’t know if I would have done anything differently. I think it is very possible to be in a marriage of comfort and still be happy but I think that requires three things. 1. Knowing yourself enough to be able to express your needs. 2. Having a partner who is receptive to hearing them, and 3. Both partners have to fully commit themselves to meeting the other persons needs. If all things are present then I think the sex issue fades into the background. Unfortunately, for me not all of these things are present in my relationship, and I think that is what it means to settle. To be in a relationship where you know that there is no way that the other person can meet your needs yet you stay anyway.
marymary 132
ET, 131
Are we sure that our needs are meet-able by another person? Some needs are entirely reasonable, others are more of a bottomless pit that we drag from relationship to relationship.
I had an extremely bad family life too. Until I made peace with that, I was never going to have a good, lasting relationship. Not so say you are doomed or that you have to save this relationship against your better judgement. But it might be worth taking a deeper look at this issue.
e 133
wow, it was depressing to read what you wrote. dreams/passions are the essence of life, please don’t demean them..
Ron 134
Great, GREAT article! Excellent exposition, honest practical advice. Contrary to your article, and based on your article, you sound passionate and very comfortable with what you’re doing. Well done!!
Ron