May21

Pity the Pretty: An Ode to Attractive Women Who Can’t Find Boyfriends

08:00 am on May 21st 2008 Evan Marc Katz

Finding the One Online is a comprehensive, life-changing program that covers everything I teach my clients about online dating. If you want to get your love life on track and aren't sure where to start, Finding the One Online is the best investment you can make.

79 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites, Sex & Relationship Advice, Uncategorized

79 Responses to “Pity the Pretty: An Ode to Attractive Women Who Can’t Find Boyfriends”

1. cinnamon May 21st 2008 at 08:50 am 1

   Evan, I rate this your best article so far. I just wonder why you consider it as controversial?…

2. Selena May 21st 2008 at 08:54 am 2

   My impression was that she wasn’t stringing guys along without sex. It was that she wasn’t having sex on the first date and THEY were the one’s who were either taking things really slow, or never calling again.

   Maybe the problem is the guys she is agreeing to go out with? Perhaps she tends to pick the most shallow men who are accustomed to *bagging* one beautiful girl after the next every weekend.

   Ashley, ask your girlfriends their honest opinion regarding what they think the problem is when it comes to your dating. It may be you are doing something you are completely unaware of, but they can clearly see.

3. Marc May 21st 2008 at 09:07 am 3

   Just because Ashley feels the dates she’s gone on went well, it doesn’t mean the guys do. The nice guys out there get very easily intimidated by the hot chicks out there, and if they sense the slightest bit of the aloofness Evan referred to in his response, they may think she’s not interested, and not call again.

4. Honey May 21st 2008 at 09:38 am 4

   I wonder how she is meeting these guys? Maybe if she meets guys through friends, or if she meets them in places where it’s clear they have some kind of connection (like by taking an extra course at the cc or volunteering for the Humane Society) she will make the initial contact through some other type of interaction than sexual, she will have better luck. If she is meeting them through Match or some kind of traditional dating service, maybe she can pick a more specialized one. Evan has all kinds in the sidebar, though I think he could stand to add some of the veggie singles sites

   Also, are these hot guys (who might, as others have pointed out, be shallow and not call if she doesn’t put out right away) or regular joes (who might feel patronized or suspicious if she hasn’t established some non-sexual connection with them prior to the date that would explain her interest)?

   Without knowing more, it’s hard to tell, though I think Evan is right on. Let us know how it goes!

5. Steve May 21st 2008 at 09:42 am 5

   Ashley;

   You wrote that you want to know that a man is interested in who you are in addition to what you are. Venues like bars, singles events or even random encounters on the street are going to favor meeting men who are interested in what you are. At least starting off.

   If you want to meet men who are interested in who you are, find something YOU like to do that isn’t focused on single people, something that will bring you into contact with single men, and something that generates conversations.

   If a man keeps engaging you in conversations past initial meetings and he is interested in the content of what you are saying then he is interested in who you are. You probably can tell when someone is interested in what you are saying, but disagreeing with you and asking you pointed questions ( NICELY ) are good indicators that he cares about what you are saying beyond the fact an attractive woman is talking to him.

   Don’t go looking in nerd heavy venues or with political volunteer groups so much. Those guys will be just as bad about focusing on what you are, but since they are underexposed to beautiful women they will not be as graceful about it as the smooth bar room operators. I say that being a person who goes to such venues.

6. Steve May 21st 2008 at 09:47 am 6

   Honey;

   Volunteering for the HSUS will be a female heavy venue. Slim pickings.

7. Honey May 21st 2008 at 09:51 am 7

   @ Steve–it was just a for instance, though the point is well taken.

8. Lance May 21st 2008 at 11:00 am 8

   First off, if the guys are making themselves scarce after one date DESPITE her beauty, then she’s doing something wrong that’s de-attracting them. Either she’s got an serious emotional issue that’s plainly apparent, or maybe she’s talking about marriage right off the bat (notice the tip-off in her letter). Remember one of the cardinal sins of first dating? Don’t talk about marriage right away!!

   If Ashley is a 10, and for the sake of argument we can assume she is, I would advise her to seek out men who are used to being with women of this caliber. A player would be an example, but also a slightly older guy with high social value could do the trick (say, a well-to-do exec with good social skills). If the guys are non-plussed by her beauty, then they’ll seek out whatever else makes her special personality-wise to continue the interaction. I agree with Honey here, she’s probably making herself available to the wrong guys.

9. Nikita May 21st 2008 at 12:56 pm 9

   I can identify with Ashley in this post. I’m not drop dead gorgeous but have been called pretty/beautiful/sexy by members of both genders. I’m 26 now but have yet to find someone that I can trust. I’ve dated plentiful (not people I meet in bars) but at the end of the day, most of them seem interested in having a trophy on their arm.

   For example, to date, two married men have tried to start affairs with me (unsuccessfully I might add), I get asked out in supermarkets, get “hey sexy” comments in the gym even while minding my own business…

   Like Evans said, I do indeed rely on this to boost my self-esteem. I have surprisingly low self-esteem stemming from bad acne as a teenager. Despite graduating top of my class, being called beautiful and having a great figure, the low self-esteem persists and it doesn’t help when all the men seem to be after one thing.

   So when you see that beautiful woman walking down the street, don’t just envy her, she may be more insecure than you expect and that aloof exterior only a front to ward off unwanted advances. Spare a thought, give her a smile and start a sincere conversation with her. You never know that she might say yes.

10. A-L May 21st 2008 at 02:00 pm 10

    Ashley,

    I would second the idea that you talk to your friends and see if they can tell you if they know you’re doing something wrong, or perhaps ask a guy you dated who seemed pretty forthright and might tell you the truth. Because as distasteful as this might sound, if you hold up your end of the conversation and are interesting to talk to, I’ve found it’s unusual not to get a second date (though I’m no supermodel either, so perhaps that changes things). To illustrate my point, I might e-mail with a hot guy, and even go out with him if his correspondence isn’t scintillating, but if he can’t hold up his end of the conversation, things go no further even if he wants to. It sounds as though some of the guys who are really slow about contacting you might be deliberating, thinking that it wasn’t the most thrilling date of their lives, but when they think about how beautiful you are, they decide to give you another shot in the hopes that things improve.

    One other question for you though. How old are the guys you’re dating? A lot of guys in their early to mid 20s aren’t interested in settling down with a long-term relationship and if they get that vibe from you, they may just cut things short since they don’t want to hurt you or get involved in a messy situation. Perhaps if you dated more guys in their late 20s or in their 30s, things might improve.

11. vino May 21st 2008 at 02:41 pm 11

    Not much fact to go on here, but I’ll take a stab at this. FYI, Evan’s spot on w/his advice.

    “…the date will go really well …” Maybe the dates really didn’t go that well for the guys. Maybe Ashley’s a good-looking bore. Maybe the guys are tools. Who knows? The result is that they guys clearly don’t want to go further in the dating process with Ashley. That is the common denominator – the guys don’t come back. Why? Let’s look at what else she said.

    “… and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all. My friends all have boyfriends, and I’m really looking to settle down. By the way, it never gets farther than kissing with me. I realize that if they don’t stick around because I won’t have sex with them, then at least I know.”

    As I read her words, it is Ashley that wants to slow everything. She will do no more than kiss. She doesn’t specifically say, but I get the impression that that no matter the stage of dating, that’s all she will do, at least until he commits to being with her, and perhaps formally via engagement, etc.

    She wants to ’settle down.’ I wonder if she’s communicated that to her dates. That’s kind of a turn off for a first date convo, especially when you know your only payoff is a kiss. I say the guys likely know, because that’s usually communicated directly or indirectly. And kissing’s possibly the only payoff even if you do commit. Not saying it’s all about sex, but as Evan said, that’s an important component if there’s no likely prospect at some point, why bother? I think most guys would rather bang a 6-7 than just kiss a 10.

    More importantly, what would put me off is the attitude that she sets the rules. She will do no more than kiss. You must commit to her before anything beyond a kiss, presumably. Maybe nothing even if one did commit. Her letter is silent on this. Why be with someone if they get to control the important aspects of a relationship? 1) It isn’t fun if you’re the controlled, and 2) it isn’t a relationship if that’s the case.

    No matter how good the external packaging, some things clearly aren’t worth it to the guys she dates. That’s the bottom line, for it’s the common result.

12. Sarah May 21st 2008 at 03:41 pm 12

    Wow, this is my life story. Thanks Evan.

13. cinnamon May 21st 2008 at 03:51 pm 13

    “By the way, it never gets farther than kissing with me. I realize that if they don’t stick around because I won’t have sex with them, then at least I know”.
    I agree that the way Ashley has formulated herself sounds quite ultimative and rigid. As Evan wrote, that rigidity probably results from a wish to protect herself. That’s understood, no one wants to be harmed.
    I wonder if any of you guys have an advice for Ashley on if (and if yes then how) she could communicate her concerns/fears to her date. Could that be one way to reduce her insecurity and his confusion?

14. Kitty May 21st 2008 at 06:00 pm 14

    Ev,

    Great response to Ashley and LOVE the video. You’re the best!

15. A-L May 21st 2008 at 07:29 pm 15

    From the letter: The date will go really well and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all.

    On the whole kissing/no sex issue of Ashley’s, I agree with Selena that I don’t think she’s not willing to have sex. I think she doesn’t want to have sex on the first couple of dates, hardly a rigid, controlling position.

    Also, what do you mean they move really slow? If they’re asking you out again, and are expressing interest, then it’s a good thing. Perhaps there’s the wish of a sudden, head-over-heels Hollywood romance and when it’s not happening, it’s considered slow? I understand holding no interest in the guys who don’t ask you out again, or take a week to do so, but this third category of guys may merit a closer look.

16. Selena May 22nd 2008 at 03:42 am 16

    Actually, not wanting to have sex on the first couple dates is a rather common position. Which makes me wonder if Ashley is either picking “I’m only here for sex” kind of guys, or if there is something in her demeanor on a date that is making them leery of dating her further. We need more info than just her statement she is a very pretty girl.

17. Alan May 22nd 2008 at 05:43 am 17

    I’m always fascinated how the advice-seeker’s letter is analyzed word-for-word to try and glean further details of their situation and experiences. I’m not discouraging this per se, just observing.

    On the other side of the fence, I’ll toss out a 100% agreement with Evan’s perspective as a presumably average nice guy faced with a very attractive woman. I’m more wary, more hesitant to approach, more likely to make (poor) assumptions, less likely to even try. I have enough problems with women who are not as attractive, I really need to compound things with the additional concerns and guard? I’m actually more likely to go after a 6-9 than a 10 because of that. It’s self-selecting and self-limiting, but it’s there.

    So what’s the answer? The suggestions above are a great start and I’ll add one more. Try to identify the qualities you’re looking for in a partner and actively look for them. If you’re pursuing online dating, look for the non-generic profiles that catch your eye. Look for common activities or activities that evoke the qualities you’re after. Hardly a non-obvious suggestion, but from the description of things it may be the case that you’re not going out with the guys you want to, and that is something over which you have some control.

18. Steve May 22nd 2008 at 05:55 am 18

    Ashley;

    I apologize about not posting on topic for your question, but I would like to thank you for this quote from your email:

    
    I am a very attractive girl and I tend to meet guys easily and go on dates mostly every weekend. My problem is that it never leads to anything more than that. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, but the date will go really well and things tend to either move really slow, I won’t hear from them after our date for a week or so, or not at all.
    

    Great first dates and an inexplicable lack of interest in a second date is a recurring theme here. Evan has given out the sound of advice that unless you have evidence do not assume you did anything wrong or that is about you at all. In the absence of more information it could just as easily be a simple lack of a spark or about something going with the other person/their life.

    If a knockout can experience this same type of problem then the rest of us can accept Evan’s advice a little bit more easily.

19. Markus May 22nd 2008 at 05:59 am 19

    What are you like as a person Ashley? I don’t care how good looking you are. If I think you’re not a good person I won’t be able to stand being around you. I once dated this girl I thought was smoking and we had great chemistry. Dumbass me cut everyone else loose. Then I’m over her house for one of the first times and I ask where her recyclables are. “I don’t recycle. Just throw it in the trash.” Done. I’m not saying you’re like this but perhaps you’re not looking at the big picture.

20. Andrea May 22nd 2008 at 06:22 am 20

    I agree completely with what A-L said in comment #10. Talk to a guy you’ve dated, or a male friend offers perspective. It’s one of the reasons I like to keep male friends around.

    I’m reminded of the Ginger-Maryanne idea (not the threesome or girl-on-girl fantasies, so stop thinking it ) and the idea of the “movie star” archetype being the one to screw and the “girl next door” archetype being the girlfriend/wife material.

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten fed up because guys seemed to only want to sleep with me. I’m not gorgeous, maybe not even “pretty”, but there are things about me that bring that out in men. I feel so weird saying this (do we all feel uncomfortably vain when discussing such things?), but as flattering as it is- and I’m NOT complaining- it’s also sometimes frustrating when guys comment on my “great ass” or “hot body”. Sometimes I want to scream that there’s more to me than my bum, and I’ve heard women say similar about body parts (at least a guy isn’t staring at my ass when he’s talking to me). Not that we’re not thankful, but there’s a hindrance, one that comes with feelings of guilt for thinking that way (that is, for those of us without big egos and with humility).

    Getting back to topic… Guys are visual, very sexual and easily distracted to begin with. I imagine that sometimes it’s difficult for them to get past the visual and into the brain. They get better with age.

    Note to Evan:
    Are your “observations” about “the pretty girl” your way of expressing the perception that men have rather than what you know to be true? If it is, I almost missed it. If not, I’m giving you that out anyway.

    Based on conversations that I’ve had with both genders, I believe that the idea that “the pretty girl has more dates than she needs and probably has a waiting list a mile long. ” is a myth. Males assume that the pretty girl is unavailable, attached, not interested, out of their league. I used to have a male friend who claimed to go for the hottest girls, assuming that other men would be too intimidated to. It worked for him. Of course “pretty” is also different from “drop dead gorgeous” or “very attractive”, which is how Ashley describes herself.

21. Steve May 22nd 2008 at 08:40 am 21

    
    Selena May 22nd 2008 at 03:42 am 16
    Actually, not wanting to have sex on the first couple dates is a rather common position. Which makes me wonder if Ashley is either picking “I’m only here for sex” kind of guys, or if there is something in her demeanor on a date that is making them leery of dating her further. We need more info than just her statement she is a very pretty girl.
    

    Ditto & Amen.

    I am a nice guy, decent looking, not in a bad spot in my life, & I have Sicilian blood coursing through my veins. I don’t expect nor I do I even want sex on the first few dates. Its nice to take a little bit of time to get to know the person first. You know, last name, paper versus plastic, Kirk or Picard, etc.

22. Steve May 22nd 2008 at 08:42 am 22

    Markus;

    Post #19. Yes, nice girls recycle!

    Seriously, I’ve had your experience and I know where you are coming from. Looks will get me there, but they are not enough to keep me around.

23. dadshouse May 22nd 2008 at 09:00 am 23

    Lance is right on – men want to be with a beautiful woman, and will do anything to be with her. To use EMK’s terminology, men want a trophy. So if the guys are leaving after one date, something’s wrong. She must be de-attracting them. Maybe it’s the sex they want and she won’t give. But who knows?

    Some beautiful women know they are trophies to men, and use that to their personal advantage. They play men for spas, getaways, jewelry, etc. A lot of men who figure this out will simply leave them for someone else. Maybe this reader expects too much material attention, and the guys see right through that?

    Wealthy men who are seeking a genuine connection face the same problem as a beautiful woman seeking that. It sucks when women see you only for the size of your wallet.

24. Sam May 22nd 2008 at 10:28 am 24

    “. . . men want to be with a beautiful woman, and will do anything to be with her. To use EMK’s terminology, men want a trophy.”

    Wanting a trophy might be superficial, but the great feeling you have from being with one is absolutely genuine. I’ve only dated a 10 once in my life, but it boosted my self-esteem more than being hired by my jobs and more than getting into an excellent college. Dating a 10 inspired me to improve myself in various ways too, from exercising more to improving my mind to even trying to get along with my parents better.

    Just because I got a lot of joy just from being seen with this girl doesn’t mean I didn’t sincerely like and respect her though (she was as smart as she was good looking). And just because I worshipped her for her looks doesn’t mean that I would put up with anything from her either, in fact, the reason we broke up was that she didn’t do as much to try to make me happy as I did to make her happy.

    My point is that a trophy brings genuine, if superficially induced, happiness.

    We are who we are and looks matter.

25. Eda May 22nd 2008 at 11:33 am 25

    Ashley,

    Based on your post, I get the impression that you may be a little reserved. If that’s the case, what you think be open and inviting may not be interpreted that way by the men you are dating. Although you may feel that laughing and smiling and having a good time is a clear signal to a guy that you are open to seeing him again, it may not be so obvious to him. Seems crazy, I know, but it’s true. So, if you really are having a good time with a man and you want to go out with him again, you may want to send louder, clearer signals. I am going to suggest a few simple things that you might try.

    First, make certain that you really pay attention and really listen to what he is saying and ask follow up questions that indicate you are genuinely interested in him. Get him to talk about the things he loves.. his passions…not just his job. Don’t make him feel like you are interviewing him — you aren’t. You are just trying to get to know him. Make certain that you are looking him in the eye when you talk — don’t let you eyes wander all around. Make him feel like the center of your attention.

    This next can be a hard habit to break if you do it — don’t cross your arms when you are with a guy that you like. It makes him feel that you are closed off and not interested. Lean in to listen when he talks to you. It might be the subtle things that put distance between you two that may make him feel you aren’t interested.

    Make up reasons to touch him — in a fun, playful and clean manner… ask him to thumb wrestle or tell him you want to read his palm. Voluntarily touching a man is definitely a signal that you are interested!

    Offer to pay your share. Be gracious if he wants to pay for you.

    Finally, at the end of the date, just be bold and tell him you had a good time and would enjoy seeing him again. Doing any or all of the those things will be no guarantee that the guy will want to see you again if he’s “not into you.” However, you can at least be certain that he knows that you were interested in him!

    Also, as another poster suggested, it can be really illuminating to ask a guy what he thought about you on a date. I’ve done this myself and a number of the guys told me they just didn’t think I was interested in them. Like you — I laughed and smiled and had a good time so I was actually shocked that they felt I wasn’t interested. That’s how I know from personal experience that laughing and smiling and having a good time are not enough of a signal for some men. Given that you are so attractive, a guy may need even more reassurance that you like him. So, just help him out a little more!

    Good luck!

26. Evan Marc Katz May 22nd 2008 at 11:37 am 26

    Hey Eda,

    If you keep giving great advice like this, no one’s gonna need a dating coach! Glad to see you’re implementing these solutions in your life.

    Hope all’s well.

    Evan

27. Eda May 22nd 2008 at 11:59 am 27

    Oh, Evan,

    We will always need you

    By the way, your video clip is awesome! I hope that was just the first of many more to come.

28. sara May 22nd 2008 at 12:43 pm 28

    I’m thrilled to hear about a hot young girl having a problem dating. Yeah, that might make me sound bad, but I’m happy to hear it because it makes me feel better. Honestly, 7-9 girls have the same problems as “10s” with wondering if he’s into us or just using us for sex…albeit with smaller numbers of guys chasing us. Guys are guys…so Ashley is going to have to keep relying on her judgements just as the rest of us women do.

    As to what Eda said, I agree. Ashley does need to flirt appropriately. Touching him (shoulder, arm, knee) a few times on the date is a great, easy and appropriate way to convey interest. And yes, tell the guy that you think he’s cute and smart and you’d like to see him again. Guys love having their ego stroked. Don’t let him do all the work on the date. Pull your weight, be interested in him!

    As to the issue of settling down….that is a big problem if you ask me unless you are dating guys in their 30s/40s. Guys in there 20s generally don’t want to settle down….even with a 10. So Ashley should modify her game plan if she is husband hunting in the late 20 something age group otherwise she will wind up routinely disappointed.

29. Kristina May 22nd 2008 at 12:55 pm 29

    Oh, please. Evan, I normally agree with what you say, but you were way off target on this one. I’m attractive, my sisters are attractive and I know a number of attractive women- ranging from cute to drop dead gorgeous. If these woman are single it’s for one of two reasons- either they want to be single or they are doing something that is causing them to be single.

30. Zann May 22nd 2008 at 01:27 pm 30

    I’m glad Ashley had the guts to write this, because it’s hard to wonder out loud if you’re being judged by your looks, because it sounds so … arrogant. Or pathetic — “yea, being gorgeous is such a drag.” But she’s telling the truth, and I sure don’t have any answers, but one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that beautiful women were more than likely beautiful girls when they were young. And if you’re a “pretty girl,” you learn very early on that your looks are what gets the attention, makes you stand out from the rest, and unfortunately, what gives you value. No matter that you are also a genuinely good-hearted kid, who is kind and smart, a good athlete or teamplayer, or whatever other qualities you possess besides your physical beauty. You become an object for others to admire. How many times have you heard adults say, “Oh, she’s such a pretty girl. She’ll have to fight the men off when she gets older.” Then, when you’re older and actually are fighting off men and yet can’t find anyone to love you for you, you wonder what’s wrong with you. You were raised to believe that your looks were enough to carry the day. So you start wondering if maybe you ARE boring, or needy, or neurotic, have bad breath, etc. Sure, there are beautiful people who are shallow, boring or mean, just like there are less-than-beautiful people who are that way. And yes, looks are important & but only to a point, because if you haven’t also developed your own personality, character, sense of humor & convictions (because you weren’t encouraged to….. you learned your looks would be enough), it’s baffling as an adult to learn that looks are, in fact, not enough. People — particularly us women — assume that attractive women have it easy and are never lonely, just like we tend to assume that naturally thin women are happy, or they SHOULD be. Here’s what you hear: “Look at that waist. I hate her.” Or “Give me a break — could her teeth BE more perfect? God, I hate her.” I’m small and fairly attractive, so men have always assumed I’m cute, fun, harmless, and cuddly. And I am some of those things, some of the time, but when I’m just getting to know a guy and I open my mouth and say something like, “Hmm, I don’t agree with that,” men act like they’ve been betrayed, tricked, deceived. How dare I have a brain, an opinion? Well dang, I guess I’m just faux cute. My point is that people might be more aware of the comments and assumptions they make, especially around young girls, complimenting them on their prettiness as opposed to, for example, their great smile or radiant personality or kindness to their friends. Ashley, I doubt you’re boring or a bitch. Dating is just hard for everyone, and finding a connection takes work and patience, but it’s still worth examining the things that have been suggested above and see if they help. Best of luck.

31. Janice May 22nd 2008 at 08:39 pm 31

    Evan, and bloggers – this one hit home. At 50, single and very attractive, I have dated those who indeed are only after the thrill of dating a “10″ – they only get one date – years of experience have helped me to see thru them. But, met someone a couple of months ago – he tells me how beautiful and smart I am, and fills my ego. Yes, I am insecure – never felt appreciated for more than just beauty – but I hide that insecurity very well. I can’t read him – goes from hot to cold – if I don’t respond to his voicemails, etc in a timely manner, his insecurities shine bright – thinking I am dating around, etc – I’m not. I don’t want to be with anyone but him right now, and have told him that. If I do timely respond, he acts like he has me wrapped around his little finger, and I don’t hear from him for a week or more. What’s up with this? Men I’ve dated have either been smothering or so aloof they can’t be ‘found’ … does this type of behavior have anything to do with my being attractive, and maybe his thinking every man out there secretly wants me, or that I want every man out there to prove I can have any man I want (which, I truly do not believe)… can someone please help me understand?? Trust me, natural beauty is a curse, not a blessing.

32. m May 23rd 2008 at 01:14 am 32

    “Then I’m over her house for one of the first times and I ask where her recyclables are. “I don’t recycle. Just throw it in the trash.” Done.”

    Gosh darn, Markus.

    No suggestions? No education? No patience?

    You trashed the relationship because she wouldn’t recycle one time.

    If a woman wrote in, “I stopped dating him because I was over at his house and he wouldn’t recycle once,” you’d be ALL OVER HER about how inflexible and rigid and harsh and unbending and unworthy of a decent guy she was.

    And you men accuse us women of being rigid.

    More directly OT, I hope the guys Ashley is dating aren’t grilling her on the first date on her recycling habits. Just because a beautiful woman might have one flaw, you all (figuratively) beat on her, pull her letter apart, and take her to task because of your own terrors of rejection — and then you tell us we have to be flexible and put up with ALL your BS.

    Hardly a balanced way of relating, I’d say.

    (And E, man – the little dig about “pretty girls having different problems than fat girls”? Gee, I hope Kate Dillon and Megan Garcia – and Whitney from the latest ANTM season, for that matter – aren’t telling their friends not to read you anymore.)

    I’ll let one of the other ladies deal with the guy (Mark?) who said, “Yeah, Ashley, we run away from you because you’re aloof.”

    She didn’t say she was aloof. She said she appeared aloof because she was shy. Not only did you misread her and give her no credit for attempting to be nice, you attempted to blame your own fears of rejection on her.

    Geeeeez.

33. Andrea May 23rd 2008 at 04:15 am 33

    Well said, Zann.
    I’m now wishing for an “edit” or “delete” button because I’m uncomfortable with the personal anecdotes that I posted.

34. Shawna May 23rd 2008 at 09:19 am 34

    Steve: Picard — definitely Picard.

35. Selena May 23rd 2008 at 11:54 am 35

    m-
    I found Marcus’ little rant about recycling amusing.
    “If I think you’re not a good person I won’t be able to stand being around you.” Feels that strong about not recycling? Wow. Gotta wonder what some of the other dealbreakers are.

36. Steve May 23rd 2008 at 12:01 pm 36

    
    Kristina May 22nd 2008 at 12:55 pm 29
    I’m attractive, my sisters are attractive and I know a number of attractive women- ranging from cute to drop dead gorgeous
    
    Kristinia. Please get in touch, ROFL

37. Steve May 23rd 2008 at 12:05 pm 37

    [i]Shawna May 23rd 2008 at 09:19 am 34
    Steve: Picard — definitely Picard. [/i]

    I only date women who are Kirk fans. Oh well, maybe we can still be friends

38. hunter May 23rd 2008 at 07:12 pm 38

    to evan,

    Single, small waist, large breasted, blond, 40 something in L.A?…they are very, particular about the public place they go to…..if they get out at all….I can see why…LOL!..

39. Brian May 23rd 2008 at 09:54 pm 39

    When I first started dating, I found two types of pretty girls–the first added intense attention to their hair, makup and clothes to their considerable beauty. The others were great looking but didn’t obviously obsess over their presentation.

    Personally I found the ones who spent much time on their appearance less interesting since they had less time to spend developing themselves and using surface presentation as a major part of presenting themselves was ultimately not that interesting. Having to regularly fight my way through the men who were interested in the look was more work than it was worth.

    The genuinely good/great looking were a different story. I found many had a hard time finding quality dates like the rest of us. Often tired of being “hit on” by guys looking for a ’score’, being thoughtful and sincere was well received, though it often took longer to get their confidence.

    Ultimately, substance and compatibility always play well. Good looks and sex only get you so far in a relationship. In the end, it is just the two of you together. Being able to genuinely connect and having something interesting to talk about can carry you a lifetime.

40. Markus May 24th 2008 at 04:21 am 40

    m,

    I stayed in the relationship for a bit after that and more red flags popped up anyway. If it was something that could’ve been easily remedied…fine. But I’m 39 and she was 41. It’s not like no one knows how or why to recycle. I’m not a training camp.

    Selena,

    I’m very concerned about the environment and am looking for some level of concern about same. Recycling is EASY. If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?

41. D May 24th 2008 at 11:37 am 41

    Just my experience, I went out with this really HB for lunch. During the meal, at least 3 or 4 times I found she was checking out the guys who were walking in and out. It was a major turn off and I never took her out again even though she was interested in me.
    I would never do something like that even with a woman I had no interest in.

42. Selena May 24th 2008 at 11:42 am 42

    Marcus,
    “If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?”

    Sounds like she wasn’t the type of woman who wanted a man ‘to get her to do things’. Good for you for bailing out before wasting anyone’s time.

43. Steve May 24th 2008 at 12:35 pm 43

    
    Markus wrote:
    If she can’t put a can in a different bucket how am I going to get her to buy recycled products that typically cost more?
    

    If you she isn’t interested enough in your values to put a can in a different bucket you can only imagine how difficult things will be on major issues.

44. hunter May 24th 2008 at 05:08 pm 44

    to Brian,

    Men in their prime, do they really want to genuinely connect and have something interesting to talk about that will carry them a lifetime?

45. hunter May 24th 2008 at 05:11 pm 45

    I agree with Kristina, attractive women find partners, as soon as they rid themselves of what some women call the “Cinderella Complex”….

46. ocdgirl2000 May 25th 2008 at 05:15 am 46

    I had to respond to this. My response will be educational and will give you some insights into your future as a “pretty woman”. I was once, many, many years ago, considered pretty. I am now 54 years old, have a few grays, raised two children to adulthood who are now as old, if not older, than most of you here.
    Your looks will not last forever. You need to think “as if” you no longer had those looks, and consider the men in your lives as lifelong companions who will accept you when you are pregnant and not so pretty over the toilet puking, when you are post baby with a wrinkled tummy and a wide behind, and when you pass through menopause with gray hair and saggy everything.
    Will he still be there for you? Or will he be still eye-ing women who are young and pretty and asking for their phone numbers? Will he be looking in the mirror at his own recessed hairline, or will he be getting hair transplants and face lifts so that he can find yet another young thing on the side?
    Will he be a good father, or one who never has time for his children because he is too self obsessed? Will he be so busy working that he doesn’t remember your name? Take a look at this person who you are dating with an eye towards your future and eliminate the superficial stuff, you don’t have all the time in the world to spend on playing around with time wasters. You know inherently who they are, you have the judgment in you whether you want to admit to it or not. If you don’t want to be a committed person in a relationship, then you can have all the fun you want with men who only want to date pretty women, and you can focus on your career and being an independent single woman for the rest of your life.
    There is nothing wrong with that. No one says you have to be married or be in a relationship, or even DATE if you don’t feel like it.
    I’ve been divorced for 21 years, been there, done that, had several relationships, and now, it’s a peaceful place where I don’t have to deal with the advances of men who only want pretty women. It’s easy now! If a man was interested in me now, he would probably be looking to hook up with a woman who could take care of him, and being a Nurse, I don’t want to have that happen!LOL!

47. hunter May 25th 2008 at 04:10 pm 47

    to ocdgirl2000

    I have heard women say what you just said. But, there has to be a fun way of dealing with this part of life.

48. hunter May 25th 2008 at 04:23 pm 48

    To D,

    Women have a sophisticated defense system, she may have had other reasons for checking out men.

49. ocdgirl2000 May 26th 2008 at 06:03 am 49

    Notably, some of us have chosen to remain single simply because we are narcissists ourselves. We tend to start our sentences with the words “I” “Me” and “my”, these words are used in just about every sentence of the original poster. This will certainly be the type of woman who will attract men who want that and most likely they will be similar types to herself, so she shouldn’t be surprised at who she attracts. The point is, you have to know yourself. Then you can adjust your dating preferences and goals for relationships based on that knowledge. Too bad we learn so late in life…

50. Sara May 26th 2008 at 06:34 am 50

    I’m so sad for Ashley. Who would have ever thought?

51. Heidi May 26th 2008 at 06:46 am 51

    Yay Evan! I like your stance. Being the pretty girl isn’t the easiest job in the world though some may like to think so! AND hearing a man oppenly acknowledge that fact is just amazing. You should forward a copy of this to the entire male population (and female too) so that perhaps finally we too can be understood.

52. Brian May 26th 2008 at 09:15 am 52

    To Hunter,
    I am not sure what you mean by “in my prime” but I look for someone who has something to say and good skill in the art of conversation. People would spontaneously tell me what a beauty she was, even now when we are in our 50s. The othe ingredient is the mutual love and respect that binds us together.

    Conversation? There was a time we went off to europe and spent a month touring in a small car with no one but each other to talk to in countries where we didn’t speak the language. While we spent ample time experiencing the romantic possibilities of places like a tiny hotel in a 13th century french castle, ultimately, it was the conversation that carried us through the day.

    Of course, great conversation also implies shared core values. I don’t long enjoy talking to a person who is dishonest or not trustworthy. A willingness to openly talk about themselves. and ultimately a willings to be emotionally engaged. make long term good conversation possible.

    Attractiveness is just that. After you have gotten each other’s attention, what you do afterward determines whether you progress beyond dating.

    Brian

53. Steve May 27th 2008 at 09:26 am 53

    Eda;
    Post #25. Though I am not a pretty woman ( and couldn’t be one even with drugs, a chain saw, and a bucket of paint ) I found your advice fascinating.

    People in general, are not likely to give feedback, particularly in dating related situations. No surprise there, it is usually a thankless job, even when solicited. You can expect hurt feelings, arguments and/or an awkward situation.

    I think your advice may work because the dynamics change. You basically have a good looking woman doing something that most men welcome: paying more attention to them by asking them for their opinion.

    Not useful to most of us, but for those helping good looking women friends with dating problems your advice is valuable enough to file away.

54. Steve May 27th 2008 at 09:34 am 54

    Hunter, Brian; About post #52. I concur.

    I am in my “prime”. I look decent, am fairly well rounded on the inside and I have a decent financial situation. I would still like to have sex with many more women, whether or not they are relationship material.

    It might be a sign of being a little bit on the lonely side these days, but I see a good conversation with someone I connect with as valuable as a wild night of mind blowing sex after a pick up.

    There is just something about finding a kindred spirit that is life affirming, complex and interesting.

    Then there is always mind blowing sex afterwards

55. hunter May 27th 2008 at 05:59 pm 55

    To Steve,

    Stay on the internet, I have been told there is pick up artist information, if you keep looking.

56. hunter May 29th 2008 at 11:01 pm 56

    I always wondered why the really pretty women don’t participate in beauty pagents, now I know.

57. heather May 30th 2008 at 11:06 am 57

    Evan – I think you advise is “right on.”

    To those of you that think being pretty is so easy. The majority of my life I was shy, quiet, not attractive and blended into the wall. I finally found my confidence and I am now comfortable with my looks. I don’t think I am a 10 but do get a lot of comments about being gorgeous, sexy and attractive. With that said, I can totally relate to Ashley’s problem. I think all women with self esteem problems think the pretty girl has it easy but after changing into that girl, I see quite the opposite. I used to envy a girlfriend for her good looks but never understood why she never wore makeup and never dressed to show off her figure. Now I totally understand why. When you get tired of the same patterns of men (even women) not taking you seriously and just seeing your appearance, you just want to find someone that likes your inside and the outside is a perk. I spent my late 20s and most of my 30s married. Coming back on to the dating scene with my new found confidence about four years ago, I find it really hard to find the good guys (guys that meet my standards and want the same things in life as I do). Here’s what I’ve learned.

    Ashely, you are going to have to weed out those that take you for only your looks. If you are on-line dating, try to get to know someone before you meet and make sure you just don’t accept a date because he asks you. If you are okay with not accepting every date (it’s not your social life) make sure there is something in it for you and what you want. If you don’t accept every date, you have to be willing to be alone. I find that I waste my time and his if I just go out because I get asked. Also, most guys under 40 don’t want a serious (get married) relationship. Actually I am finding that even those that have been married don’t want to marry again.

    And a few comments:
    Kristina post 29 wrote: “If these woman are single it’s for one of two reasons- either they want to be single or they are doing something that is causing them to be single.” – Get off your high horse! It really isn’t that simple, everyone is unique and has a unique situations.

    Nikita post 9 wrote: “So when you see that beautiful woman walking down the street, don’t just envy her, she may be more insecure than you expect and that aloof exterior only a front to ward off unwanted advances. Spare a thought, give her a smile and start a sincere conversation with her. You never know that she might say yes.” – I second these statements and it goes for women of any age or anyone in fact!! We are all human!

58. hunter May 30th 2008 at 11:29 am 58

    To heather,

    How true!….Some women don’t dress to enhance their figure. I remember dating a woman, who, at first sight, seemed to be, in the “plain, average” looks category. Until, we took our clothes off did I see her sexy figure. hhhhmmmhh…EEGGAAADDS!..

59. Dr. Tartt May 31st 2008 at 12:47 am 59

    Well said Evan! I wonder if we have a case of self-fulfilling prophecy going on? I wonder how long she really expects to maintain a man’s attention. You attract what you expect.

    Dr. Tartt
    http://www.drtartt.com

60. Rachel Jun 6th 2008 at 05:20 pm 60

    Hey Ashley, HAVE FUN and stop worrying so much about “settling down.” That’s enough to make any guy cut and run, and they do pick these things up. Whatever is meant to happen will happen. Making that leap from dating to commitment has a lot to do with “right place, right time,” and you can’t control that. So what if these particular guys didn’t work out? Go out and do something you enjoy, and get to know the guys who are taking you out — maybe they feel like you’re not giving them a chance. You don’t have to give up your morals or standards, or anything like that, but I think you owe it to yourself to have a good time. You don’t want to look back in 5-15 years and slap yourself.

61. Mike Jun 10th 2008 at 09:52 am 61

    I feel that many attractive women act or believe that with their good looks comes a sense of entitlement. As in “Since I’m attractive, I only want to date hot, tall guys who drive nice cars” And that is fine; because they can get those kinds of men to date. But since really hot men are more scarce than really hot women, the men who these women attract tend to have lots of choices and are likely to be players. Attractive women, need to examine the types of guys they are dating — My feeling is that after a few mis-steps, if the same bad thing keeps happening, then you have to wonder if it’s the fault of the chooser (i.e. the hot girl), not the choosee (i.e. the men she dates).

62. hunter Jun 14th 2008 at 08:33 am 62

    to Mike,

    I have heard therapist say, “a single womans downfall, when she selects men with her eyes.”

63. vino Jun 17th 2008 at 07:59 pm 63

    Mike’s #61…

    “I feel that many attractive women act or believe that with their good looks comes a sense of entitlement. ”

    So do many non-attractive ones too.

    Ignore them. You do yourself a favor.

64. Adam Jun 20th 2008 at 01:57 pm 64

    And people assume the pretty girls have it easy… well in some ways they do

65. Mike Jun 20th 2008 at 02:28 pm 65

    I had a debate the other day with my friends (a guy and his girlfriend). I stated that “in our looks-based society, there is no reason why an an attractive woman can’t find a boyfriend. If she can’t, then she is not trying hard enough.” By “not trying hard enough,” I meant that she’s either not putting herself out there, or that she is not spending enough effort in filtering out the wrong types of guys. My guy friend agreed with me, but his attractive girlfriend completely disagreed. Your thoughts?

66. hunter Jun 20th 2008 at 05:18 pm 66

    To Mike,

    Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements……..Attractive women can’t go to the grocery store without being approached by a man, almost always the wrong one,(so they say)……. these women don’t need to put themselves out there…..they are constantly getting hit on.

    You bring up a good point, attractive women do get tired of dealing with all those personalities(get tired of filtering out guys)…but this usually doesn’t happen ’till they turn 40,(and lose their hormones) or if they get hurt/abused.

67. hunter Jun 20th 2008 at 05:30 pm 67

    to Adam,

    #64, Your post brought to mind an old USO show with Bob Hope and Raquel Welch. Bob said that when he invited Raquel to come on the show, she asked him, “what do I have to do?” Bob replied, “You don’t have to do anything, just stand there, most men know what to do.”

68. starthrower68 Jun 21st 2008 at 05:53 am 68

    So the beautiful have it just as tough as the not-so-beautiful. I’m sure that the not-so-beautiful would be willing to trade one set of problems in for the other, if only for a little while.

69. hunter Jun 21st 2008 at 02:45 pm 69

    to post #68

    LOL!…but only if life were that simple and easy going…a womans mind does not operate like a mans mind……

70. Francis Jul 9th 2008 at 01:54 am 70

    Being strikingly attractive can be a problem on its own. People comment on your looks without having to bother with who you are at heart. A beautiful woman is something everyone wants to have even though they are sure that many have got it.

71. m Jul 9th 2008 at 10:13 pm 71

    “Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements……..’

    Hunter, really — what an attractive proposal for the woman.

    “I, Attractive Woman, take thee, Unattractive, Unproductive Blob with No Intelligence, Feeling for Family, or Charm …”

    Ugh.

    I know that’s what a lot of you seem to want; it’s one of the reasons why Apatow’s and Braff’s movies are so popular, it’s all wish fulfillment.

    But really …

    Ugh.

    Do any of you men see how inequitable that is? You want a woman to have everything to offer you, but you want to offer her nothing? Do you really think that’s the way things are supposed to be? Do you care at all??

72. hunter Jul 10th 2008 at 10:07 pm 72

    Post #71

    Ha!,…..how funny!….”unproductive blob”….I didn’t mean just grab a man from the “pile.”………… Single, very productive men, do exist, although, maybe, in a smaller pool, and mostly, clueless.

73. Karl R Jul 11th 2008 at 02:33 pm 73

    “When you get tired of the same patterns of men (even women) not taking you seriously and just seeing your appearance, you just want to find someone that likes your inside and the outside is a perk.”

    I have a question for Heather and the other attractive women who have voiced opinions on this subject:

    What would you think if a man was clearly interested in you, but he did not compliment your appearance?

    When I begin dating a woman, I tend to compliment her on other traits (intelligence, humor, skill as a dancer, ability to live in the present, etc.), but I tend not to compliment her on her appearance until I’ve known her for a while. The more attractive she is, the longer it will be before I compliment her appearance. (This isn’t something I consciously plan, but it’s a habit of mine that I’ve observed.)

    So if you’re interested in a man, and he’s clearly interested in you, would it bother you if he offers fewer compliments on your looks than the average man? Or would you be happier knowing that he clearly appreciates qualities other than just your looks?

74. m Jul 11th 2008 at 07:27 pm 74

    Hunter, if you’ll look carefully at the top of my post you’ll note that I quoted you back to yourself EXACTLY.

    “I didn’t mean just grab a man from the “pile.”
    can easily be construed as a reasonable conclusion drawn from the assertion
    “Most women could marry this instant, if they dropped all their requirements.”

    The thing about communication is that, if you want to be perceived as effective at it, you have to be willing to take some responsibility for
    - what you said (the literal words, the tone of voice, and the connotations) AS WELL AS
    - what the other person heard.

    And if you don’t give a hang about what the other person hears you say (because I can hear you now – “I can’t be responsible if some woman reads things into what I said!”) — then you’ll understand if she thinks you don’t give a hang about communicating with her effectively.

    If you didn’t mean “drop ALL her requirements”, then don’t say that.

    And if that IS what you meant, then I’ll ask you again — do you honestly think it’s an equitable relationship if you want a woman to have everything to offer you (and be willing to do so) but you want to offer her nothing??

    Moving on:
    ………… Single, very productive men, do exist, although, maybe, in a smaller pool, and mostly, clueless.”

    How is this relevant to women “dropping all their requirements”? What does cluelessness have to do with anything?

75. hunter Jul 15th 2008 at 07:15 pm 75

    to M, on post #74

    on, “drop all her requirements.” hhhmmmhh, relationships, won’t operate on precision. I said, “all” but in a general sense. Say, are you a military/correctional officer?…….or maybe in the legal field?……..how funny!…..

76. Agreeing Sep 2nd 2008 at 09:29 am 76

    I think it’s true that everyone has their fair share of hardships. I just don’t think that men only go for looks, which is not true of all guys but if they want a real partner, looks are only part of it. Instead, look for people you connect with in other ways. Show men how smart, talented and funny you are. Those are the types of things that men who are looking for a relationship, will ultimately factor in. There’s more advice about this sort of dilema on vdateonline.com. I’m always looking on their forum for advice and tips. There’s great advice about showing the inner you on there as well.

77. Dating Reviews Sep 22nd 2008 at 05:50 pm 77

    A rather blunt post, but there is some truth to the advice. I agree that women should not become objects to men!

78. Beauty’s Woes « Beauty of the Year Oct 8th 2008 at 04:49 pm 78

    [...] often. Look here and here. And I think of Evan Marc Katz’s famous (at least to me) blog post. But still that doesn’t even applies because I don’t need a boyfriend. I have a [...]

79. Heather Feb 1st 2010 at 07:46 am 79

    I am engaged now, but before that, there was a long list of guys who did exactly what you said (assumed I was dumb or intimidating, etc.). I’ve never heard it so perfectly put.

    Sometimes I say to my fiance, “I don’t know why you love me.” I do know why he loves me, it’s just that I can’t believe he really does. I don’t by any means think I’m the most gorgeous woman on the planet, but my fiance for some reason does. The difference is that he acts upon it in a much different way than his predecessors. Pretty girls often need to be treated in a more gentle way. Telling us we’re hot and you want to sleep with us won’t cut it.

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