The Secret to Love: Mr. Imperfect is Actually Mr. Right
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He is brilliant and incredibly witty. And he wants to leave the world in a little better shape than when he joined it and has devoted his entire adult life to that cause. He is a gentleman in the true meaning of the word. He does his best to be the best man he can be. And when he fails, he grieves terribly. He loves my daughters madly and can’t get enough of being with them. He rarely loses his cool and has great communication skills, even in the most difficult of conversations. And I took a second look at him and thought “hmmm….he kind of has that ‘hot professor’ look going on” – not to mention what he is like as a lover 
.
Its not always been easy – we’ve had a couple of really big issues that were “Evan blog-worthy” and I thought for sure would be dealbreakers. But we dealt with them. And fell more in love.
And we celebrated our one year anniversary this past weekend.
So “Happy Anniversary,” Evan
Congratulations to Jeanne. You deserve all the credit in the world for focusing on what was really important in a relationship. And this was the SECOND letter today I received from someone who had the SAME EXACT experience as you.
The other person is my private client. She’s in her early sixties, lives in Virginia, and is, by all accounts, a catch. Attractive, successful, opinionated, young for her age. Yet she was really struggling with dating – especially after having her heart crushed by a Match.com guy last year. Together, Katherine and I worked together to give her a new lease on love – with new online photos and essays, of course, but most importantly, with a whole new outlook on dating.
After a month, she was seeing a man who she described as a good guy – but not quite what she was looking for. Turns out he was a little short for her tastes – she can see eye-to-eye with him without heels. And he wasn’t as rugged and manly as her ideal guy. She likes men who can saddle up horses and fix things around the house. The new Match guy didn’t quite qualify, which is why she was on the fence about him.
I asked her to tell me – regardless of this guy – what was most important in a relationship; what she really NEEDED. The list came back as you might expect: a man who treats me well, a man who makes me laugh, a man who loves family, a man who respects women, a man who is cute, a man who is financially stable. “Got it,” I said. “So, how many of those things apply to this Match guy?” She took a moment to think about it. “All of them,” she said, laughing. “I guess I’ll give him another shot.” Here’s what Katherine wrote to me this morning:
One of the best tips you gave me was that the right guy is not necessarily “Mr. Tall, Dark and Handsome.
Dear Evan,
I just want to thank you for your great advice and understanding, as we worked together toward finding the perfect man for me. I really enjoyed our telephone conferences and always looked forward to the next one. Your insight really kept me on track. And although it took literally hours and hours of searching through profiles on various websites, all the hard work paid off. I’m very happy with the new man in my life, and I wouldn’t have found him without your help. One of the best tips you gave me was that the right guy is not necessarily “Mr. Tall, Dark and Handsome.”
Many thanks,
Katherine
What Katherine didn’t say is that she’s taken her Match profile down, introduced the guy to her kids, and is traveling with him in Europe for ten days in April.
If you’re not inspired by this, please check your pulse. 42-year-old single moms finding love? 61-year-old double divorcees finding love? All I can say is this:
I LOVE my job. Thank you all for trusting me to assist you.
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72 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice, Uncategorized
Steve 1
Evan, all of that is very impressive but did any of those people win a gender politics/gripe argument on the internet? Priorities, please.
dadshouse 2
I love hearing when people drop their preconceived “image” of their perfect mate and fall in love for all the right reasons. Awesome stories! In my years of dating as a divorced man and single dad, my longest lasting relationship came when a friend set me up with one of her girlfriends. My date admitted to me on the phone beforehand that she would NEVER date a single dad, and she was only meeting me to be nice to her friend. Not the best way to meet for a blind date, but at least she was honest. When we met for drinks and dinner, I have to admit my first reaction was that her “pear-shaped” body type didn’t match my “image” of an ideal woman.
And yet… our date was great. The more we talked and learned what made the other person tick internally, the more we started to fall for each other. We ended up dating for over a year, and she was one of the few women I dated who I introduced to my kids. Things didn’t work out longer, but I still look back and think fondly of our time together. We had a great run that wouldn’t have happened at all if we both had stuck to preconceived images of the ideal mate.
Victoria 3
I think this is great, GREAT! Remember Charlotte and Harry from “Sex and the City”? If you can be yourself with that other person and of course attracted to him/her – you found your match!
Jennifer 4
I love the success stories too, but it does bring me down a bit to think I’m gonna have to end up with a ‘Harry’ (from Sex and The City) or equivalent look-alike. No it’s not all about the looks, but it is a little bit.
Steve 5
Jennifer Mar 27th 2008 at 12:29 pm 4
I love the success stories too, but it does bring me down a bit to think I’m gonna have to end up with a Harry (from Sex and The City) or equivalent look-alike. No it’s not all about the looks, but it is a little bit.
Is it really that hard to find a decent looking guy who is,…decent?
Lance 6
I don’t see why the younger women commenting on this blog are adverse to dating older guys. Has anyone seen the latest with Kristy Hinze (age 27) and Jim Clark (age 63)? That guy isn’t exactly a looker…see here:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23429815-2,00.html
The fact is, older men have a higher value in comparison to their male counterparts in the their 20s and 30s. More money, more stability, more material possessions, more life experience, higher emotional intelligence, more of everything. BTW, those older guys realize this and want to date younger, hot women because, to put it simply, they can. Are you a single, rich, 45 year old guy? Guess what…that dude can pull a 28 year old single, childless woman. I’m not judging it right or wrong.
Setting aside pre-conceived notions about the health and vibrancy of older men, what’s wrong with a 45 year old woman dating a 58 year old dude? I guess I should be asking, why aren’t the gals on this blog attracted to older men? Is it looks?
christine 7
hi lance,
i’ve dated older men. i’m 42 and i dated an 80 year old man. i liked that he treated me well and had heated seats in his car. lol
JerseyGirl 8
Lance,
There are a few things you said that I disagree with.
If Jim Clark was a school teacher, he most likely wouldn’t be dating any 27 year old at 63. You can’t compare “hollywood/rich/famous” life styles with the typical human experience.
I have dated older men at times, but I wouldn’t say that older men have a higher value then a man in his 20s or 30s. They are just different, not necessarily better not necessarily worse. I actually think men 20-30s are in their prime and am most attracted to taht age group. Older men aren’t necessarily more emotionally intelligent, more intelligent in general, more stable or put together. Some older men are, true. Some men aren’t. Some men in their 20s and 30s are all those thigns as well.
I also question the emotional maturity of a man that is more concerned with pulling someone younger then him then if someone just happens to date people of all ages, younger or older. I try to stay away from the men that only date younger women. It’s a red flag that tells me what he values. And the truth is everyone ages, men too! And I want a man with the emotional maturity to grow out of that frat boy mentality.
As for your comment about ” setting aside pre-conceived notions about the health and vibrancy of older men…” I actually consider that something very important. In men or women. There are more risks with older men sometimes healthwise, just as there are with women. I remember dating this one older guy when I was 24 and him aching about his aging pains was a turn OFF. He was in good shape but did have some age related issues and at 24, I wasn’t very tolerant of it.
In a time where women now both work and take care of the kids; I think most women want a partner who will also be able to have the energy to keep up with that and the children. It’s also been proven that that as men age, their sperm has a higher potenial to carry diease just as older woman have higher risk for having a baby.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with a 45 year old woman dating a 58 year old man. Or even a 28 year old woman dating a 40 year old man. But I don’t think older means “better” even if some men think younger means better.
And I don’t want to be with a guy that thinks younger means better because that leaves no room for growth inside himself, or for his partner who is only going to get older everyday. It isn’t the fact that man date younger women that can bother women. It’s men’s mind set that they are “better” and that women only get “worse” with age. Women or men don’t want to feel easily replacable.
TMan 9
The pull-quote for this article bothers me a little:
“It took 5 months to make me realize that there was this extraordinary man who was in love with me and who would wait as long as it took for me to get my $h!t together.”
Umm, no. An extraordinary man will rarely wait for you to get your sh!t together. Our time is valuable. Jerk us around with the “I just need some time to figure things out” line, and we’ll be *gone*.
One of the lamest things I ever said to a girl who wanted to delay a relationship was, “That’s OK. You’re worth waiting for.” I was young and stupid then. Long story short: there was nothing worth waiting for, because she got another guy. Hey, that’s fine…but I was dumb for putting my desire for a relationship on hold.
Alan 10
Woot! Yay for success stories!
Kat Wilder 11
Evan, I did look back at your earlier posting in which you said that successful, intelligent woman “can often be anxious, self-righteous, negative, and entitled.”
And so can successful, intelligent men. Those are human feelings, not gender-based.
Research has proven that we are drawn to attractive people, and there’s nothing wrong in acknowledging that we’re not attracted to someone who’s bald, heavy, short, tall, hairy, whatever. That doesn’t change just because age.
But I believe most of us are surprised how quickly we lose that when we meet someone genuinely smart, funny, kind, grounded, etc. And when we start to really dig a person, he/she becomes more attractive to us anyway.
It isn’t just getting rid of preconceived notions of what Mr./Ms. Right looks like; it’s clarifying what qualities are important for others to have for us to want to be with them their world view, their moral compass, etc. and then dating (or befriending) mindfully.
Steve 12
Hey Evan;
Can I make a suggestion that you prominently post on your site that there is a convention that whenever you….or one of us, uses the word wo/man that it should be taken as “people”, inclusive?
Almost everyone here is reasonable and level headed to the point that they will freely admit that most dating issues apply to both sexes.
It is getting tiring having each thread turn into a gender gripe.
It reminds me of that old joke about going to a fight and having a hockey game breakout. I’m wondering if I should go to a blog about gender politics and hope that they spontaneously start giving out advice about dating
Jennifer 13
Steve Mar 27th 2008 at 01:00 pm 5
Is it really that hard to find a decent looking guy who is, decent?
Steve, I certainly hope not! And I’m still optimistic. It’s just a pattern in almost every success story I hear- a woman ‘gives a guy a chance’ that she never would’ve looked at twice and then she is happy. I never hear about the stories where a woman meets a guy who looks the way she wants him too and is a decent guy too; I’d like to hear some of those stories too, just to balance things out.
Evan Marc Katz 14
You’re right, Kat. EVERYTHING we’re talking about here is HUMAN, not gender-based.
The primary reason that women readers might think I have it in for them is because THEY are the ones asking the questions. If four out of five questions were from men, they’d be getting the same requests to look in the mirror, take responsibility, see the other side, etc.
I don’t favor one gender. I favor reality. I favor controlling our own behavior instead of complaining that the world doesn’t conform to our needs.
Steve 15
Jennifer Mar 28th 2008 at 08:03 am 13
I never hear about the stories where a woman meets a guy who looks the way she wants him too and is a decent guy too;
Jennifer, I understand that you can’t speak for all women, but I have heard comments similar to yours before. As a single guy I am curious as to what women are looking for in terms of looks. What do you think women are looking for in looks beyond just height, non-Ernest Borgnine face, not overweight, not skinny, current hair cut, clean clothes that fit properly, and standard hygiene?
If you still feel like indulging my curiosity what do women mean by “decent” beyond : being polite, considerate of others, self assured, listens, and has his life together?
I guess I am having trouble seeing that there is a shortage of men with these qualities. In my area people just don’t go out enough to be seen so I am wondering if that is part of it.
abf 16
I love the success stories too, but it does bring me down a bit to think I’m gonna have to end up with a Harry (from Sex and The City) or equivalent look-alike. No it’s not all about the looks, but it is a little bit.
Jennifer, you are missing the point. “Harry” became more attractive to Charlotte once she dropped her preconceived notions of what her husband should look like and accepted Harry “as is.” If you do the same, believe me, you won’t be down one bit if you end up with a “Harry.”
And for what its worth, I think Evan Handler (the actor who portrayed Harry) is adorable (and a talented actor to boot). So remember not everyone is attracted to the same type of people.
Mattie 17
These stories are wonderful! Thank you, Evan, for letting us read them. Maybe there is hope for a penniless, failed old bat like me!
Steve: I am second to none in my admiration for you, and your invariably thoughtful, interesting and reasoned comments. Just don’t diss Ernest Borgnine, right? He was HOT, yesssss! My (very pretty) mum was madly in lust with him for decades – and she was happily married for 45 years to a Cary Grant clone!
So what appeals to women in a man? See above! It’s all as varied as … I dunno; you can think of something.
But, yes, you’re right to enquire about the values. As have the successfully- and happily-mated pair of couples we’ve read about here. That’s the whole point of this particular stream: get the essential, vital and non-negotiable shared values sorted, and everything else tends to follow.
Anyway, looking at your list of desirable qualities, I reckon you’ve got them covered. Well done, you! And thanks.
Jennifer 18
abf,
I completely get what you are saying; i guess I’m just curious about why I almost never hear about a woman that meets a man who *does* fit with her pre-conceived notion of attractive and is decent to boot. It’s gotta happen sometimes, right? I understand that as you get to know someone they can become more attractive to you; I’ve experienced it myself. I just wanna hear some stories (and not just from Evan, but in general) of a woman who falls (happily) in love with someone she found attractive right from the start.
Charlotte not only had to abandon her notion of what she found attractive, but also her religion to be with Harry. Is the message/upshot that the majority of women will have to do that much changing of themselves to be with a decent guy? I’d hope not
Jennifer 19
Steve,
Good questions but, as you know, tough to answer! I think that beyond what you’ve listed, what a person finds attractive (and decent) is pretty subjective.
I think what you often hear women complaining about is finding a shortage of guys that both look and act the way a woman wants them to. And more specifically, finding a shortage of those men that want the woman in return. I think lots of factors come into play- age and geography just to name two. But people get older and may be more likely to ‘settle down’ and if you grew up in a small town with not a lot of men you’re attracted to, you can move.
I guess I’d like to hear more stories of women finding love that had previously eluded them because they turned 28 (cause now the men their age are more open to settling down) or because they moved to a big city with a lot more options than their home town, or even because she learned more about how to deal with the opposite sex successfully, as opposed to *only* finding a decent guy because she made concessions on what she originally found attractive.
Steve 20
Mattie Mar 28th 2008 at 10:27 am 17
Anyway, looking at your list of desirable qualities, I reckon you’ve got them covered. Well done, you! And thanks.
Thanks for letting me know I am on the right track! The bathing regularly thing was a tough one to figure out
. Modern women.
Jennifer Mar 28th 2008 at 10:31 am 18
abf,
I completely get what you are saying; i guess I’m just curious about why I almost never hear about a woman that meets a man who *does* fit with her pre-conceived notion of attractive and is decent to boot.
That situation isn’t a problem, so a nobody is going to write into a dating blog to complain about it for that situation to be heard about. They are just going to enjoy it and move on.
abf 21
Jennifer,
Every relationship involves concessions. Now how many and to what extent will vary from person to person. Are there men/women out there who have met and married the person they always dreamed of? Probably. Do they remain together forever? Some may/some may not. The point is that as you grow and develop as an adult, what you deem attractive will change. And what you consider important for a relationship will change. Thus, in the end you are never truly settling or conceding anything and you get not only what you want and deserve but wonderful experiences that you could never imagine! (Or at least, that is what I am hoping for).
Jennifer 22
Good point Steve!
Steve 23
Charlotte not only had to abandon her notion of what she found attractive, but also her religion to be with Harry. Is the message/upshot that the majority of women will have to do that much changing of themselves to be with a decent guy? I’d hope not
Evan achieved girlfriendy-bliss once he opened himself up to women other than liberal Jewish intellectuals.
Jennifer 24
I hear you abf, and I don’t really disagree. My only point was instead of always hearing the ‘the man of my dreams looked nothing like i thought he would’ story, I’d like to hear a different one sometimes! But like Steve pointed out, you may not find that story too often on dating blogs or on t.v. (doesn’t make for a good plot twist). But if i get my own ‘i got a decent guy and while i conceded some things he looks pretty close to what i wanted’ story to tell, I’ll change the norm and be the first one to share it here
penny 25
I had an awful first marriage. I left it & worked for 5 years in therapy to build a new life. Then I met a wonderful man, who also happened to be handsome, fell in love & married. He was diagnosed a year later with an incurable disease & died 9 wonderful & awful years later. I learned that handsome & wonderful does not guarantee life long happiness. It can be gone in an instant.
Two years ago I decided that life is too precious to sit on the sidelines. I have a very active life & decided to add online dating as another way to meet more men, and maybe build a newrelationship. Within 6 weeks I went out with 6 men. The 6th man was a lovely person & cute! We will marry this fall. He is less & more than I thought I wanted, but, so am I. There is no place else I would rather be.
Paul 26
I think all of us have an internal mechanism that when we see someone we either accept or reject that person almost immediantly as a potential love partner and that can really get us into trouble. It’s a little like trusting your emotions, although we all know our emotions will lie to us just about every time. I also don’t think that the right person for anyone is someone that they are not attracted to. But men are wired to see beauty (and lets face it, youth = beauty, in BOTH sexes, generally, in our culture) and all women are wired to unveil the beauty that is inherent in ALL women. It is natures way of bringing us together. God wouldn’t want us to be with someone we didn’t like…looks or otherwise. So there is someone, tons of someones in fact, out there for everybody that we are attracted to and can have an awesome relationship with. But isn’t it surprising that we can learn later that we are attracted to a person that we weren’t at first blush ? It does seem though that women are more geared to be able to adjust to a guy and look beyond certain physical qualities that might not at first seem all that attractive if she really likes a lot of other things about the guy. After all, men aren’t the ones you see in paintings hanging on art gallery walls; it’s beautiful women! A man see’s his wife getting out of the shower, he’s all eye’s (being naturally attracted to the feminine form). A woman see’s her husband getting out of the shower and she says “hey, your getting the floor all wet”. Men are simply more visually oriented – if we weren’t, we wouldn’t notice your beauty so much !
There is someone out there for you that you are attracted to, that will also be great to have a relationship with. But…as Evan has pointed out in the “settling” vs “compromising” issue, we all have rose colored glasses when it comes to reality in what we can have a resonable chance at attracting, don’t we? I know I do…but isn’t all of life a matter of compromising anyway? It is the big picture I know I need to focus on more sometimes. But in the end…you have to be happy, right? In the end, being happy is a choice.
Paul
a&v 27
Jennifer,
At first I thought I had a “he looked pretty close to what I wanted” story for you, but then I remembered that in my story, the guy is 14 years older than me, has been through a horrific divorce and has a child (albeit lovely) from that relationship. All of those things were dealbreakers for me until I met this guy–who happens to be “tall, dark & handsome” but also good to the core, intelligent, funny, creative and crazy about me to boot. I suppose the age difference and various “baggage” means I’ve made concessions–but it doesn’t feel like it at all. (Steve’s right!)
Evan's Girlfriend 28
Jennifer,
I completely get what you are saying; “I guess I’m just curious about why I almost never hear about a woman that meets a man who *does* fit with her pre-conceived notion of attractive and is decent to boot. It’s gotta happen sometimes, right?”
Jennifer, I hate for it to seem like I’m some sort of plant in the audience, but I think I might have that story you want to hear. I would admit that Evan is not the person with whom I imagined myself, but not because of looks. Let’s just admit that we all have our ideal looks even the least shallow of us. It just so happens that I am attracted to men with dark hair and light eyes, and, if he wears glasses, that is just icing on the cake (something about that hot professor look that Jeanne mentioned). Well, Evan fits this description perfectly, down to the glasses although he does prefer to wear contacts
And, although I’ve never cared about height, and weight has little influence on my attraction, Evan is also taller than I am and in great shape.
I guess I really lucked out because not only does Evan fit my looks wish-list, he has all those other, really important qualities: he is honest, kind, affectionate, intelligent, complimentary and emotionally available. And he is close to his family and wants to start his own one day. And he is willing to take dance classes and cooking courses with me. Those are the really important things, right?!?
BUT I did have to get beyond our differences. I was actively trying NOT to date outside my religion because I thought it would just be too difficult. I had no real experience with Jewish men, let alone a Jewish atheist. And, as I am divorced, I was really hoping to find someone who had also been married before or at least had been in a really meaningful long-term relationship. I assumed this would make the man more aware of the challenges of relationships. Evan, being a serial dater and a Jewish atheist, was not at all what I was seeking. But I am so thankful that I didn’t let these issues — that I once thought to be deal-breakers let me miss out on being with this great catch of a man.
And, as Steve mentioned, I know I didn’t come in the packaging that Evan envisioned. Like me, he had to overlook a few things to discover what is really important in a mate. And I couldn’t be happier that he did!
JB 29
The “Charlotte” scenario is an exception to the rule and to normal dating scenario’s ESPECIALLY online dating scenarios where the bald guy with glasses has a better chance of being struck by lightening on a sunny day than he does of even getting a response from someone that looks like Charlotte or most other women for that matter. Maybe one out of 10 million times it might happen where a woman falls for a “normal” guy who’s lower on the looks & status chain but those aren’t odds I’d bet on. For every story like Katherines there’s a million “I can’t meet anyone decent” stories.
And Katherine EVERY man is “Mr. Imperfect” as is every woman.
Lance 30
@Christine in comment #7. You, ma’am, have a keenly developed sense of irony. Very attractive! And I mean that in an unironic way
Markus 31
I have to admit that looks get in my way. My ex (of 10 years) was petite and gorgeous…and still is. And for 38 I’ve kept myself in really good shape. I reguarly date women who are great looking and I suppose it keeps the fires stoked if you know what I mean. I do feel shallow when I dismiss someone based on aesthetics though.:(
Lance 32
@Jerseygirl: You’ll notice in my comment that I never said older (or younger) = better, I just said has more value. By most social metrics, a richer, wiser, more experienced gentleman is going to have more value than a younger man. Guys in their 20s? Often times frat boys, as you say. Immature, perhaps in debt, unstable, low emotional intelligence. They may LOOK better, sure. But when compared side by side, all of the other things trump the looks.
Besides, I was generally speaking about guys in their 40s having high value…after you go well over the proverbial hill, your social value begins to diminish. This is all generally speaking.
Also, older guys who want younger women isn’t a sign of immaturity…I actually think it’s the opposite! It’s a sign that we’re following and embracing our deeply etched attraction circuits. Just like when younger women (Kristy Hinze) fall in love with older billionaires (Jim Clark). She’s attracted to his social value and his personality. Not his looks.
I’m not hating on older women. I love older women and I’m attracted to them also. I’m also attracted to 20 year olds. I refuse to make judgments on the why of attraction. It just is, and I embrace it.
Victoria 33
I don’t know guys, to me a passionate personality and wild eyes are pretty much it!! There are so many gorgeous looking men out there but if there is nothing in the eyes I’m done with them…A boring man with money and looks is SO not my type.
Steve 34
Victoria Mar 28th 2008 at 06:10 pm 33
I don’t know guys, to me a passionate personality and wild eyes are pretty much it!! There are so many gorgeous looking men out there but if there is nothing in the eyes I’m done with them A boring man with money and looks is SO not my type.
I guess there is nothing for me to do then. Excuse me I am going to go make a call to my broker before falling asleep to c-span
Mattie 35
Personally, I’d love to meet a man who: DOESN’T denigrate me in public and slap me in private; DOES think it’s great that I graduated summa cum laude, had – once – a good career, and speak a language or two as well as having done plentiful voluntary work; DOES regard me as strong and brave, for having stood on my own two feet for so long and emerged with backbone and sense of humour intact – despite the depredations of a prodigal, abusive husband, two redundancies, a near-fatal critical illness and loss of home, career, friends, members of family and pets within past 7 years.
But, hey, now I’m destitute – nobody’ll come near me (oh, and by the way, that includes women as much as men. I think British people regard poverty as contagious; sounds much the same in the US).
The hideous – and probably hilarious – paradox is that all those men out there who go on (and on, and on, and on) about how many women are gold-diggers would naturally despise someone like me, just the same! Despite all evidence to the contrary (earned more than my husband; we lived in a property in London bought by me before we met, and re-mortgaged in order to pay off HIS debts, etc., etc.).
I’m tenacious by nature; but this is one field in which I can now never hope to succeed.
Good luck to you, one and all!
Byeeeeeeeeeeeex
starthrower68 36
Look Evan, new keyboard, no hyphens!
I like the last couple of stories because there is someone for everyone. I’ve been chatting with a guy on-line that kind of follows the theme here. He’s not Mr. GQ, Mr. Moneybags, or anything like that. I think he’s cute but he describes himself as a troll, and he is an overweight guy. But we have great conversations and we have many likes and dislikes in common. It all sounds great, right? Yes, I’m looking at the right things. Here’s the problem: he lives 9 hours away. Neither one of us can relocate and neither one of us really wants to do a long-distance relationship.
I guess I just press on and trust that God has someone really great for me, or He changes circumstances to make this one work out. There isn’t much else for me to do.
steve 37
I’m a princess and I deserve perfection in a man even though there’s no such thing as perfection! TEE HEE!
starthrower68 38
Ok, Steve, I feel like I need to check to make sure whether or not that was for me. Not to be vain or offended, but I am many things and princess is NOT one of them!
Li-Ann 39
I liked Jersey’s Girls post, and Mattie’s comment “how many women are gold-diggers would naturally despise someone like me”.
Not all women are gold diggers – I was most definitely not. I paid my share, or paid in full on dates. I supported my ex through school, and I met him when he had no car, did not have a steady job, etc. I paid for his clothes, courses, meals, rent, etc. Did not make him respect me any more. A random hottie could walk by who would want have big financial demands, and he’d turn his head every time. If he had the money for her, he’d shell it out without complaint. When we split and he finally had a good job, his plan was to find a younger woman and spend money on her.
I got the impression that many guys do not mind paying if the woman is young and hot. The fact that I always paid my fair share made little difference in terms of my volume of dates.
I am very very sorry for any man who has been hurt by a gold digger, and I know they are out there. It is sad to see that so many men think most women are gold diggers. I agree that many are, but many aren’t, it is just that the non-gold diggers might not be young, hot & pretty, so they get ignored. Just like the “nice guys finish last” theory.
Yet I’ve only met one woman who is a gold digger – and she has had more dates and boyfriends than I’ve ever had. The other two I heard about through men I knew – these were east European women that men met through foreign bride sites. Both guys complained about getting ripped off financially, but that can partially be explained by dating someone you hardly know who thinks she is going to get a rich American guy.
I guess with her it is about attitude. She is very self confident, and I think she makes men feel like they’re lucky to date her. She simply would not reach for her purse. (Ha! – I know her and the few times we’ve gone for lunch, she waits for me to pay too!). Yet, she has had several very generous boyfriends over the 10 year I’ve known her, and she always initiated the break ups when she found someone she thought was better.
And, yes, as to the subject at hand, I find for many women including myself, a man can grow on me over time. If you have to be purely realistic about it, you simply will spend a lot of time alone if you wait for a man who meets all your qualifications. Unfortunately, when you are a young woman, you think you have time to wait for this guy, then the years fly by, and you may not have found him, but now your value to men has gone down. Even though it would be nice if more men valued personality over looks (and some men do value personality), as Evan has repeatedly pointed out, that is not the reality out there.
So eventually, if you wait to settle in your early 40s, you have even fewer men to select from. It would have been better to settle in your late 20s in terms of choice, but I know that most will think they still have time. I know I did. At this point I’d be happy with someone with a kind personality, not abusive, and who is intelligent. But at this point since I’m in my early 40s, even those men are not available to me.
If I’ve said anything to offend any one here, I apologize in advance. Just looking at it from my experience, bu I recognize that everyone out there has a different experience.
starthrower68 40
Li-Ann your observations are interesting, and studying the human condition is always good for hours of entertainment.
I’ve learned to look at dating like this: I am not perfect, like anyone, but I believe I have many redeeming qualities and I love myself in a balanced way. I will treat my date as well as I know how, and do so with integrity and honor. Then if I get dumped because I am not this or I am not that, I can at least hold my head high for remaining a class act. I’m not obessing over what I did wrong.
I believe that an emotionally healthy, mature, self-respecting man will know when he’s found a good thing and hold on to it (provided he and the woman are compatible). Neither men or women have the market cornered on being flaky. Some people just “ain’t right” but I believe that for the most part, some people cannot connect because they have gotten hurt somewhere along the line. I try to look at it in those terms and it keeps me from taking it personally when someone disappears on me.
Collins 41
Li-Ann wrote of her experience: “I got the impression that many guys do not mind paying if the woman is young and hot. The fact that I always paid my fair share made little difference in terms of my volume of dates.”
I’m sorry you ended up with a guy like that, yet glad the r’ship is over. It’s his loss. But women like you are precisely the kind I look for: peers, not trophies. I detest guys like your ex no less than I do the golddiggers. Such guys don’t realize that women’s sexuality is “not coin-activated, it’s voice-activated” (my favorite quote by Marc Rudov). A guy can’t buy a woman’s love; he must earn it through talk (sincere talk, not pickup lines). As for me, I don’t care how “hot” the woman is; if she insists that I buy her dinner when I don’t even know her yet, the date’s off. I’ll take a Plain Jane who pays her share any day!
Thanks also, Li-Ann, for noting how the princess mentality is NOT confined to American/Western women. No matter where in the world you live/go (or which gender you are/seek) there are people who’d make good mates for you AND those who would not.
Paul 42
I think women…gold diggers aside…are naturally wired to look for security. What woman with any self respect wants a man who cannot provide? It’s what they look for, and should look for. We men are supposed to be providers and are wired to go out a conquer and be successful…what are we complaining about women looking for guys who look at what we make for? They have a right to! I think the guys that complain are the ones who don’t go out in life and make it happen for themselves. Girls, you keep on looking for those qualities because you know what will happen if you don’t…you end up in 20 years with a guy you realize is going nowhere and never will. If that’s OK with you that’s fine, but most women want the man to at least be trying to improve their lives…in short, no woman wants a loser !
starthrower68 43
Paul, I agree with you to an extent (I want to choose my words carefully so as not to offend). I believe that what a man earns is not mine to know unless he is VERY serious about me. I also think women have to be careful about judging his line of work; truckers, auto mechanics, and certain “non-white collar” professions command a decent wage because of the skill level and training involved. For me, it’s not “is he a good provider?”, but it can be an indicator of his level of motivation, confidence, and self-respect. I don’t need a meal ticket, but I don’t want to do all the heavy lifting, either. And, is he doing what he loves? If he hates his job, will I have to deal with anger and complaining, or is he happy and fulfilled in his work and will that joy be contagious?
Stella Guillaume 44
This was really inspirational. Thank you for a brilliant site. 43 South Africa
Stella Guillaume 45
Thank you for the inspiration.
Andrea 46
Aw, man, I was one week late reading last week’s post (kept flagging it to read later) and missed one hell of a “party”. I like it when Evan jumps in like the dad or teacher and reminds everyone to play nice, and I like the level of intelligent comments here and their diversity. Hell, we’re a literate bunch here and that counts for something.
Jeanne reminds me of how impatient some of us are. We go out with someone on one date and if we don’t feel that instant connection, we move on. She still thought of her now-boyfriend months later and it made her reevaluate, and this is a good thing. As I get older I’m becoming less impatient because I’ve had more experiences in which I meet a guy in a non-dating context (e.g. in a group of mutual friends), get to know him platonically over a number of months and then develop a crush. Because there was no assessment of him as a match in the first place- other than the usual “do I like this guy, can I see myself dating him” moment – and because we hung out in a casual context, we were able to get to know each other as friends. This has happened a few times and resulted in some of my favourite relationships. I’m still friends with these guys, even the one with whom the break up was painful. Establishing a friendship first is a great way to fall for someone who doesn’t meet the usual criteria or who doesn’t necessarily make a great first impression.
Regarding dating “older”, this weekend I decided that, like some wine, men get better with age. I’m in my early 30s now and am interested to see if that theory will hold a decade from now, but I don’t want to test it as a single 40-something. I’ll save details of my theory to use as a response for a more relevant post.
JerseyGirl 47
Lance-
I think you missed some key points in my post to you. You asked a question, and I gave my perspective as a woman in my 20s that has dated both older guys and guys my age. Most of my friends are getting married to or are in serious relationships with men their own age, give or take a few years; not older 40 year old financially well off men. That is not to say it doesn’t happen. Of course it does and that is fine! I am just relating my experiences and opinions.
The example you keep wanting to use with Kirsty Hinze is really uncomparable to most normal people’s life experience. It would be like me comparing my life to Jennifer Anistons.
I also never said it was immature for an older man to be attracted to a younger woman. Where the immaturity comes in is when an older man ONLY dates seriously younger ladies and is only attracted to younger ladies. That will be an unattractive mind frame for an older or younger woman alike. That younger lady is only going to get older. Most women want a man that they can grow older with, physically and emotionally. And a big sign in a man’s emotional intelligence is looking at how the man acts, what he finds attractive and so on. The type of men I am attracted to has changed and grown over the years. I am looking for no less in that in a man.
Having money does not always equal being more vaulable. And I know plenty of older men that do not have their junk together even if they are set up fine with money. Heck! I dated a Yale graduated stock broker in NYC who was 40 years old and wanted to give me money for my education and wanted to marry me. Dating him taught me that older and richer is not always better. I soon broke up with him after those offers because I could never take that from him and it made me realize that I did not see him for long term potential. He was well off and rich but I don’t consider him better then some of the 25 year old guys I have dated. And I am only relating my own opinion as you asked for.
As for not making judgments, we all make judgements. It isn’t that you refuse to make judgments, you clearly are making your own and if you go back in your own posts you can see a dozen examples of that. It is that you refuse to make baised judgements against yourself. There is a big difference between the two.
Deathslayer 48
I find it interesting that an old man who chases young women is a pervert yet an old woman who does the same with young men is empowered.
Let me give you the cliffnotes of what the men are trying to say.
TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK
IT GOES FOR ALL FEMALES.
Women have an expiration date. Men don’t.
Period.
It’s not gonna change.
If we look at you and we don’t get a hard on WE AINT GETTIN A HARD ON. It doesn’t matter how much money is involved or if the beer keg is loaded with viagra. Men are visual creatures.
And let me bust out a news flash for you.
WOMEN ARE JUST AS VISUAL.
If you look at a guy and you don’t get aroused, IT AINT HAPPENIN!! EVER!
Now that we have established that both sexes ARE EQUALLY VISUAL, it is time to pay attention to something.
An older guy has a lot better shot at a younger woman than vice versa.
I DON’T WANT SOME GRANDMA AND I DON’T THINK ANY OTHER GUY DOES EITHER.
40.
That’s the magic number for ladies. When they hit this age things go downhill. Fast.
For men, if they stay in reasonable shape, they can look forward to being called “distinguished”.
If women don’t marry young and marry smart, you will have nothing when you reach middle age.
If you are solo at middle age the next guy you will hook up with is the grim reaper.
Instead of debating/arguing with us, try this little exercise. Take the information and the attitudes that you are reading from these types of forums, and start convincing your fellow females to change their behavior. In all of your myopic glory you women forget one major point.
You are only sexually desirable for 2 decades.
Your twenties and your thirties. Time flies.
You might wanna make the most of it.
Not to be super vulgar or anything, but you have to be either married or really desperate to bang an older woman.
No matter how much plastic surgery she has had or how much makeup she puts on, pretty much all women past 40 have the wonderful benefits of:
(1) Severe loss of muscle tone, especially if she does not actively lift weights. Of course, this happens to men as well, but since we have more testosterone than women and more muscle overall, it is not as pronounced. Skinny older women look even more nasty as they get veiny man hands and start looking rather gaunt as if they were concentration camp survivors.
Ironically, slightly chunkier old women sometimes look better because the fat hides the loss of muscle tone.
(2) They will get that cottage cheese look all over their body. Many women nowadays, get the cellulite sucked out, but there is a limit to the number of times you can hit the plastic surgeon up for liposuction before it becomes unsafe.
(3) Loss of posture. Just look at Madonna in her latest music videos. No doubt she keeps herself in great shape for her age, but her frame is waning. This is why all girls should drink a lot of milk because once you get older and your bones start losing calcium like crazy, you will need all that you can get to prevent your body from withering into a decrepit unsavory unbalanced skeleton.
(4) Boobs sag. Even the best bra can do nothing about this. Oh and you can get plastic surgery of course, but then the skin is stretched even more which creates a veiny unnatural “the skin on these boobs is so stretched it looks like it is about to burst” look.
(5) Voice becomes more manly, especially if they have been smoking for a bunch of years. Kinda like Fran Drescher but only more unattractive.
Oh yeah, something to think about, men:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4790313.stm
Security ‘bad news for sex drive’
Differences in sexual appetite may be driven by evolution
A woman’s sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research.
Researchers from Germany found that four years into a relationship, less than half of 30-year-old women wanted regular sex.
Conversely, the team found a man’s libido remained the same regardless of how long he had been in a relationship.
Deathslayer
Andrea 49
JerseyGirl: Great reply with #47, and thank you for emphasizing that you’re relating your experiences, which may not reflect generally “the way it is”.
While I disagree with most of Deathslayer’s comments and think that it’s just a bunch of generalizations, I agree with the following:
“Women are just as visual” and (paraphrasing) “If you look at a guy and you don’t get aroused, it’s not happening.”
Also, I had a conversation with a married male friend last night that supported Deathslayer’s statement about reduced sex drive four years into a relationship.
Of course, this won’t apply to everyone.
vino 50
Deathslayer wrote”
“(4) Boobs sag.”
I wonder if he’s ever visited Scottsdale. I have. It would seem Newton’s gravity laws do no apply there nor would the above quote.
A little humor for everyone.
MuleChewingBriairs 51
[i]Turns out he was a little short for her tastes – she can see eye-to-eye with him without heels. And he wasn’t as rugged and manly as her ideal guy. She likes men who can saddle up horses and fix things around the house. The new Match guy didn’t quite qualify, which is why she was on the fence about him.[/i]
Very interesting that men are known to advise each other to think with Big Head instead of Little Head. The lack of a handy female equivalent to such a saying makes me a little hesitant, but both Jeanne and Katherine proved themselves capable of it.
JerseyGirl 52
Thanks Andrea
DeathSlayer, I think your post boarders on being mean spirited and bitter. Maybe we should thank you for telling us women how little we matter to men and how little we should expect as women. After all, men never “expire” and women do. Your message is clear. Men are better, and women are crap. Thank you for showing me the way some men can view women.
—————————————————————————–
A woman’s sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research.
Researchers from Germany found that four years into a relationship, less than half of 30-year-old women wanted regular sex.
—————————————————————————-
You leave out the part that while a man’s libido might not change in a secure relationship, the way he treats his partner often does. He no longer makes the effort to woo her and make her feel special. So a by-product is that a woman’s libido can go down if she does not feel as if her mate is interested in her. And as you felt the need to point out, women only get worse with age. How do you expect women to feel sexy and desireable and wanting to have sex if all yo uwant to remind women is how unattractive and how little they matter next to anyone who is younger?
Li-Ann 53
Thank you JerseyGirl for what your response.
This is cruel and I have nothing further to say.
Deathslayer 54
DeathSlayer, I think your post boarders on being mean spirited and bitter.
*
Why does it sound ‘mean and bitter? Would you like for me to post the article that says that Middle aged women lamenting that they are not having sex anymore? What of the article that says that married couples are having LESS sex?
Maybe we should thank you for telling us women how little we matter to men and how little we should expect as women.
*
Nah, no thanks needed. The marriage boycott, the home paternity test, men like Marc Rudov and the rise of single women and single mothers proves my point quite nicely.
Then there’s this:
“He Had It Coming”.
Insider Divorce Tactics
Every Woman Needs to Know
It’s all about getting even… We all know that women earn less than men, and unfortunately this also applies to the spoils of divorce. Veteran trial attorney and former divorce lawyer Stacy Schneider, Esq., knows what it takes to get women their fair share, and now, using examples from her own practice and her own divorce, she is making the strategies that worked for her available to you!
After all, men never expire and women do. Your message is clear. Men are better, and women are crap.
*
Never said that. Nice projection, though. Notice that a woman’s LOOKS are the hook, but PERSONALITY are the keeper. Notice I also said that IF a man keeps himself in shape, he has a better shot. How many women follow that same concept? BTW, men DO expire, but HISTORY shows that men PREFER younger women…older women will get noticed IF they have something besides looks.
Thank you for showing me the way some men can view women.
*
No, thank you for the shaming tactics that are so obvious I can point them out. Madame, judging by the amount of single women AND the women who agree with my statements, I’d say that more and more people are realizing this and despite what the media tells women, the media CANNOT control what men like in women.
Deathslayer 55
You leave out the part that while a man’s libido might not change in a secure relationship, the way he treats his partner often does.
*
That’s why a smart man keeps the treatment balanced. He makes sure she wants him for him and NOT what she can get from him. Otherwise she falls into the legal escort/prostitute category.
He no longer makes the effort to woo her and make her feel special.
*
She no longer feels the need to EARN that feeling. Ask any woman in a relationship did the man EVER do anything for her and she’ll either say NO or say he used to do it until he got ‘comfortable’ with me and he didn’t do anything FOR ME. Now, ask the woman did she show him the same support, love, affection and PERSONALITY and she’ll come up with an excuse.
“Dr Dietrich Klusmann, lead author of the study and a psychologist from Hamburg-Eppendorf University Hospital, believed the differences were down to human evolution.
He said: “For men, a good reason their sexual motivation to remain constant would be to guard against being cuckolded by another male.”
But women, he said, have evolved to have a high sex drive when they are initially in a relationship in order to form a “pair bond” with their partner.
But, once this bond is sealed a woman’s sexual appetite declines, he added. ”
Care to explain that from the article I posted?
So a by-product is that a woman’s libido can go down if she does not feel as if her mate is interested in her. And as you felt the need to point out, women only get worse with age.
*
This leads to an interesting question: What IS the value of a woman’s libido?
Is there any difference between this and prostitution?
“The rational for why a woman’s sex drive declines may be down to supply and demand. If something is in infinite supply, the perceived value would drop.”
Forbes covered this:
The Economics Of Prostitution
http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/economics-prostitution-marriage_cx_mn_money06_0214prostitution.html
How do you expect women to feel sexy and desireable and wanting to have sex if all yo uwant to remind women is how unattractive and how little they matter next to anyone who is younger?
*
Notice I ALSO said that a woman with a PERSONALITY and something to offer a man BESIDES sex is one that has a better shot at KEEPING a man?
Notwithstanding Jerry Hall’s quip when she was married to Mick Jagger, about being “a maid in the living room and a whore in the bedroom,” one normally cannot be both a wife and a whore. “Combine this with the fact that marriage can be an important source of income for women, and it follows that prostitution must pay better than other jobs to compensate for the opportunity cost of forgone-marriage market earnings,” Edlund and Korn conclude.
Ouch.
Another zinger: “This begs the question of why married men go to prostitutes (rather than buying from their wives, who presumably will be low-cost providers, considering that they can sell nonreproductive sex without compromising their marriage).” Guys, nothing says “Happy Valentine’s Day” more than “low-cost provider.”
Also, women DO get THEIR needs met…with other men.
More and more MARRIED women are cheating with other men, mostly married men to the tune of 62% to mens 68% and women aren’t feeling sorry about it.
Check out http://www.womensinfidelity.com/ for some proof that women WILL take another man to make themselves FEEL sexy and have sex.
Deathslayer
Deathslayer 56
From a friend:
If one is planning on marriage, one must select the woman to fit real needs in marriage, whatever they are in the life of a given man.
Let me give an example in hope of making my point clear.
If you are wealthy and live in Germany near the Autobahn, a Ferrari may be a very practical car to own. The thought of blasting down the ‘Bahn at 170 mph really sounds like fun, doesn’t it? Especially if you can afford a Ferrari and its maintenance requirements.
Next, let us imagine a Nebraska crop farmer. He needs a vehicle for ka-chugging to town to pick up cow feed or tractor parts, or driving around the pasture to check the fences.
A Ferrari wouldn’t be much good to him.
He probably will buy a good used eight or ten year old Ford or Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup, something that he won’t care if it gets dents and scratches.
Not every young man — nor old one for that matter — understands the same concept applies to wives as well, if he wishes to stay married.
And, the real problem is men who confuse what they WANT with what they need. What they want, if they get it, can make for a great honeymoon — and sometimes not even that.
When I counseled divorced men, from time to time there would be a man who would tell sad tales of woe. We would discover he had wanted, and obtained,
a wife with a gorgeous face,
a great chest,
and not much else.
Then, when his marriage went to Hell, it was a total surprise to him.
And, two or three years later, the same man would be back. He picked another woman, gorgeous face, great chest, and his second marriage was already toast. He would be furious.
We would try to tell him, “Maybe you had better stop looking for a gorgeous face and a great chest.”
He would say, shocked to his core, “Nope! I gotta’ have a good looking wife.” And, went charging off looking for another 10. Of course, that wouldn’t happen today, because financially these guys aren’t left with enough to live on, not to mention finding another wife.
So, what was the problem? Tens, or even nines, are from the day they are born, attention whores. “Oh, isn’t that little girl so pretty! Here, have a lollipop, little girl.” They learn at a very young age to take this for granted.
And, it doesn’t stop when she grows up. So, most of them become addicted to attention. And, alas for the poor devil who marries one, IT MUST STOP WHEN THEY MARRY.
When they marry, that’s great for the honeymoon, but after that, things mellow out.
Suddenly, being taken out to fancy restaurants,
perhaps weekend trips to luxury resorts,
changing to the everyday realities of marriage is nearly an impossible transition.
She is expected to clean house;
wash clothes;
cook once in a while.
This marriage is doomed.
Of course, there are exceptions. If she marries a CEO of a large company, there may be plenty of golf dates, and business banquets. Even there, as you well know, she may be boinking the pool boy to get back the excitement of her life before marriage.
That is why one must know what he needs from a wife.
But, for the most part, when a man says, “I gotta’ have…” to me his fate is sealed, and at his own hand.
It is apparent he has confused what he wants with what he needs, and what he wants is not conducive to avoiding divorce.
If your marriage is going to be a typical one, you probably need a wife who can and will perform domestic chores, even if you help her. In that case, you need a domestic woman.
One who really doesn’t mind cleaning, scrubbing, washing, folding, and ironing clothes.
One who enjoys making a nice meal two or three times a day.
As simply as I can put it, if you need a domestic wife, you had darned well better marry a proven domestic woman. Not a ten.
Not a world class intellectual.
There are men who may in fact need such women. Good for them, but MEN must decide what their own needs are.
Deathslayer
naturegirl 57
Sometimes I wonder why some of you are still single. Others prove it by their words and opinions.
starthrower68 58
Ah deathslayer, fortunately there are plenty of 20 and 30-something dim-bulbs. They will confuse such a tone for assertiveness and confidence rather than snottieness.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: ladies you have just as many options as men do and don’t let ANYONE tell you otherwise. The key to a successful, happy relationship is not what you look like or your age but it is the esteem with which your hold yourselves. Be a woman of honor, integrity, and class, who is happy and fulfilled in your own lifes and the emotionally healthy, mature men who want the real thing will appear.
Deathslayer 59
Ah deathslayer, fortunately there are plenty of 20 and 30-something dim-bulbs. They will confuse such a tone for assertiveness and confidence rather than snottieness.
*
And some would see your comment as an outta ammo attack instead of a subtle snub with zero evidence to support it.
I’ve supported my words with links to actual articles…all you’ve done is make a snide comment. It’s not assertiveness or confidence…it’s called the truth and reality.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: ladies you have just as many options as men do and don’t let ANYONE tell you otherwise. The key to a successful, happy relationship is not what you look like or your age but it is the esteem with which your hold yourselves. Be a woman of honor, integrity, and class, who is happy and fulfilled in your own lifes and the emotionally healthy, mature men who want the real thing will appear.
Deathslayer
vino 60
I gotta say, ds makes a fair amount of sense . . .
JerseyGirl 61
DeathSlayer, your post is mean spirited because you boardline are tearing women down and basically carrying the message that women are “less” then men.
You go on to blame women for less marriages, more single women, more single mothers, issues with divorce. Relationships take two people. Women are by far not perfect, but they aren’t “failing” at these things alone. We are where we are today because of women and men. Good or bad. You fail to mention anything about all the men out there that cheat and leave their marriages, or men who don’t want to commit at all, or men who leave behind their own children in other pursuits.
Your message is clear. Young women = better. Older women= crap. Older women with personality= might get a few stray bones thrown her way and should be thankful. Men = Great No matter What.
As for your question regaurding how many women keep themselves in shape; I see just as many paunchy over weight men as I do women. Being unfit isn’t just a lifestyle choice made only by women.
But hey, I actually can understand why an older woman might let herself go. Especially if men just consider women unattractive and useless after a certain age, while he can carry on the rest of his days knowing that no one looks down on him for the years he has gained. There is no point in keeping up appearnces if men already think the worst of women. So heck, at this point a cheesecake holds more comfort and warmth then that mentality.
—————————————————————————-
DeathSlayer: I’d say that more and more people are realizing this and despite what the media tells women, the media CANNOT control what men like in women.
—————————————————————————-
Actually, to some extent the media does control what men like in women. But that is a different topic. It’s ironic that you make excuses for men’s shallow likes, but condemn women for theres.
—————————————————————————–
DeathSlayer: She no longer feels the need to EARN that feeling. Ask any woman in a relationship did the man EVER do anything for her and she’ll either say NO or say he used to do it until he got comfortable with me and he didn’t do anything FOR ME. Now, ask the woman did she show him the same support, love, affection and PERSONALITY and she’ll come up with an excuse.
—————————————————————————–
It’s a two way street. I am willing to admit that. I don’t get the impression that you are. She probably doesn’t do all the things she should either. But again, relationships don’t just fail because of one party most of the time. It takes two people, a man and a woman. Both with faults. They have both probably indirectly stopped telling each other that they love each other in the ways the other needs. … Or perhaps he was too busy checking out her younger counterparts to notice what she was doing for him. After all, you made it very clear several times how that is what men want and value in women. Maybe she got tired of being made to feel “less”.
—————————————————————————-
This leads to an interesting question: What IS the value of a woman’s libido?
Is there any difference between this and prostitution?
—————————————————————————–
These questions have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. I was pointing out that men often stop doing the things that make their SO feel special. It appears that you seem to think women should have no desire to want to be treated special. Especially by a man that is suppose to love them. And you want to call women prositutes because they need gestures that reassure their place in their man’s life? Your high opinion of women comes shining through once again.
—————————————————————————-
DeathSlayer: Notice I ALSO said that a woman with a PERSONALITY and something to offer a man BESIDES sex is one that has a better shot at KEEPING a man?
—————————————————————————–
Personality is always important but every woman on the world from 5-90 wants their partner to think they are beautiful and attractive physically. Why? Because for one thing it is an inherent part of being a woman. And secondly, we understand how important looks are to men. If a man can’t or doesn’t think of his partner that way, then she is better off not “keeping” him.
If you want to compare women to Farraris and dented up fords; then lets compare men to diamonds and cubic zirconia. Some men are diamonds, expensive and polish and very vaulable. And some are just cubics zirconia, bright on the outside but not much going on inside, and empty replacement for the real thing. Can you guess which one women want more? The real deal.
Deathslayer 62
Actually, to some extent the media does control what men like in women. But that is a different topic. It’s ironic that you make excuses for men’s shallow likes, but condemn women for theres.
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Then why do more and more men not date single moms, despite the rise of full figured or plus sized women men still want a slim and thin woman with nice natural cures without lots of cellulite? BTW, men are watching less TV…especially the younger men with disposable income.
It’s a two way street. I am willing to admit that. I don’t get the impression that you are.
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Then that’s when a man should ask himself…what’s in this for ME? Men are usually taught to think about everyone else before himself. THAT needs to change if a man is gonna survive today.
She probably doesn’t do all the things she should either.
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Cool. Both are guilty.
But again, relationships don’t just fail because of one party most of the time. It takes two people, a man and a woman. Both with faults. They have both probably indirectly stopped telling each other that they love each other in the ways the other needs. Or perhaps he was too busy checking out her younger counterparts to notice what she was doing for him. After all, you made it very clear several times how that is what men want and value in women. Maybe she got tired of being made to feel less.
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Amount of nice things you do for a girl=something she will instantly forget in favor for pointing out a fault.
This is why marriage is pointless. This is why it’s just better to do what YOU love, and if someone wants to come along for the ride, well than that’s just great but enjoy it for the temporary thing that it is!
These questions have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.
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Yes they do…if she wants it, then she has to EARN them.
I was pointing out that men often stop doing the things that make their SO feel special.
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The mere fact of possessing female plumbing is insufficient to garner either privilege or treatment.
You want chivalry, romance, and all that? Two words: Earn it.
It appears that you seem to think women should have no desire to want to be treated special.
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So, what are women doing to treat the men as special. As you said, it takes two, so if one is doing 100% and the other is only doing 2%, what does the balance equal?
Especially by a man that is suppose to love them. And you want to call women prositutes because they need gestures that reassure their place in their man’s life?
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Tell you what…let’s let men start treating women in relationships like women treat men…
Exactly when did women start feeling like all they had to do was sit, stand or just be somewhere — a bar, a coffee shop, school, a supermarket — and men would voluntarily throw themselves at their feet begging for scraps. I don’t know about where you live, but women in this city feel that all they have to do is be there and
men will come, like maggots to a rotting corpse.
If your self-esteem is so low that you buy into the fact that you’re paying for dinner for the pleasure of their company or that the woman even mentions that you should pay for the pleasure of her company, then you need help.
What about the pleasure of YOUR company?
Isn’t that worth something?
And if a woman feels that her company is worth something and yours isn’t, then that’s all you need to know before dumping her.
What man would want to be with a woman who thinks so little of him?
99% of the time, having romance means spending inordinate amounts of money to validate her worth.
Women define a man’s value in terms of how well he serves her needs and not often by any other measure.
Your high opinion of women comes shining through once again.
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Sarcasm. Not bad, but ineffective.
If you want to compare women to Farraris and dented up fords; then lets compare men to diamonds and cubic zirconia. Some men are diamonds, expensive and polish and very vaulable. And some are just cubics zirconia, bright on the outside but not much going on inside, and empty replacement for the real thing. Can you guess which one women want more? The real deal.
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ALL women want the real deal. Few women actually work to earn it.
Women view sex as a commodity, and some even view affection as a commodity. Don’t ever give them anything in exchange for it because she’ll just try to leverage it for even more.
Under a logical view of equality, sex is something that should be equally shared and equally enjoyed by both parties, canceling out any need for further compensation for the act for either party.
Forget it if you think women would actually buy into this line of thinking though! They see their sexuality as costly and male sexuality as cheap (why else do they feel that on a date all they have to do is show up and you do the paying?)
Marriage for a man = Less money, less sex, more emotional abuse, more unnecessary responsibilities, no appreciation, no acknowledgement or respect for his contributions, constantly dealing with spouse who is never satisfied – nothing he does is ever enough, constant bitching about things she’s not getting despite all she’s getting, nagging, constantly being tested on how much he loves her, being told he doesn’t love her whenever he doesn’t do things the way she believes he should do them (emotionally bullying him into doing things the way she wants them done), destruction of his life’s dreams for her needs, etc. Nice deal, eh?
Women are extremely lazy in relationships. They expect you to initiate the meeting, they expect you to initiate the conversation, they expect you to initiate sex, they expect you to read their minds, they expect you to protect and take care of them as they just sit back and take in the benefits, they expect you to be their emotional tampon, all the while feeling perfectly justified in doing so since they’re the female and all they have to do is show up while you do the work.
Do you really think that marriage will be any different?
So, why should I prove myself to be a diamond when all she’ll see me is as a piece of coal for her to burn up?
Deathslayer
vino 63
Aren’t we a bit off-topic?
Jennifer 64
LOL @ emotional tampon!
But seriously, Deathslayer has a point about the way some women view and behave in relationships and the attitude that some men have adopted because of this. Since this behavior clearly doesn’t represent all women, it would be a shame for men to beleive it does and treat every woman accordingly. All of this just points to finding out where someone’s head is (man or woman) before getting too deeply involved. But if we all did that, we wouldn’t be reading dating advice columns
Michael Ejercito 65
How many men who have never been married and never had kids would want to date a single mom?
Shari 66
To Michael Ejercito – I found a man who has never been married and never had kids who wants me – a single mom. So there’s at least one in the world.
starthrower68 67
Thank you for proving my point, Shari! And congrats to you! I hope you continue to be blessed in that relationship and that it prospers!
Selena 68
Michael Ejercito–
I found myself a single mom at age 24. I dated a number of never-married, childless men in my 20′s and 30′s, including one relationship that lasted several years. It wasn’t until I was 38 I got involved with a man who had children of his own. I never picked men on this kind of status basis, it just happened to work out that way.
Over the decades, I’ve known many, many single mom’s who never had problems finding men willing to date them. Actually, it’s common, but you certainly wouldn’t know it from reading this particular blog. Perhaps it has something to do with on-line dating, vs. the old-fashioned way of meeting someone in person and then dating them?
JB 69
Once men hit a certain age they date single moms because they have to not because they want to. Let’s face it, what percentage of single women between the ages of 35-55 do you think have no children ? Do a search on any dating site and you’ll see it’s around 5%. So unless we get real lucky and hit it off with a woman in that 5% we deal with kids and know we will never be #1 in those women’s lives or we don’t date.
I’d go out on a limb and say there’s a lot of variables in that single moms might find plenty of men to date them “short term” etc.. but maybe less for serious relationships and marriage. Of course it depends on their ages,looks, how many kids and ages etc…..
vikki 70
JB: In other words, men – like women – sometimes have to compromise. I won’t get into the ‘compromise versus settling’ debate! But we all have to adjust our expectations somewhere along the line. This is one of the rewards of not dying young!
vino: You noticed that too! For a moment I thought I must have wandered onto the wrong blog. But I like it, that this place is so relaxed, that not even deathslayer can start a flame war. Congrats to Evan!
hunter 71
to andrea,
Most pick-up artists know, that, most women take time to warm up, so, they stick around.
vino 72
vikki: I just noticed we were getting a bit off-topic. I happen to agree with ds pretty much categorically.
Jennifer wrote: “Deathslayer has a point about the way some women view and behave in relationships and the attitude that some men have adopted because of this. Since this behavior clearly doesn’t represent all women, it would be a shame for men to beleive it does and treat every woman accordingly.”
While I don’t disagree with you, I think if you asked the guys here and in general, ‘this behavior’ represents a depressing supermajority. It’s just not worth the time, expense, hassle and other things mentioned by ds (very well). I’d rather go hiking with my dog, running, studying, wine tasting or other activities with my friends that I enjoy and give me pleasure. I run across more & more men who feel the same way also.