Sex And Your Long-Term Relationship. Not Enough Or Too Much?
A study published this month by Australian researchers finds that both men and women are unhappy by the frequency of sex they’re having (or not having) in long-term relationships.
“The real issue here, I think, is that couples are not finding enough time for sex,’’ said Dr. Smith. “I don’t think you can keep forcing more and more activities in people’s lives and still expect them to take the time it takes to have sex, let alone good-quality sex.”
Read the New York Times article here. And please leave your comments below. Will you change anything about the way you currently talk to your partner about sex?
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74 Comments »Filed Under Sex
sharon 1
Women in long term relationships tend to be the “smart ladies” that married men for compatibility not chemistry. As the relationship continues the lack of attraction only increases. Thus wifey’s libido is barely stirred if not diminished by her mate. For me personally I want sex daily AT LEAST. (granted my longest relationship was three years.) I’m usually unhappy with the infrequently my partner wants sex or the limited duration of what was offered. If I’m trying to make it work with someone who is nice but that appealing my libido doesn’t diminish. It’s just I’d rather take care of it myself. I realized there’s a difference between attraction and repulsion with men and women. Men have a lot more gray area in what is attractive enough to have sex with. THEN they are repulsed post coitally. Sexual women are either skin crawling repulsion or hair the back of neck attraction. I have a couple friends that are more analytical but there also that ladies that have very low sex drives to begin with.
Honestly who amongst would want to have sex with Woody Allen once a year let alone there times a week. YUCK!
Sarah 2
Yeah… “smart ladies” — that’s the problem exactly. If I marry the guy I’m currently dating, I will NOT want to have sex with him much. I would marry him for companionship, security, a family. I’d marry him because he’s better than nothing and I can’t find someone else I get along with that I’m actually attracted to.
I’d really love to find someone I get along well with AND am attracted to. So far, no luck. If I were attracted to my guy I’d want to have sex fairly often. If I marry someone just for the sake of getting married and not continuing to hold out for something better that never comes along… sex would be a chore that I’d seek to minimize.
Yup. What’s a smart lady to do?
NN 3
I agree with you both. Even if it is against Evans basic philosophy here, I think strong sexual attraction IS important in a relationship. Without it, it is a friendship and then if there is no sex I may live with my brother for all I care..
I have had enough of those “barely there” attractions and relationships, and they never just work. I like sex, and I am not willing to give good sex up, I just won’t settle. Settling is still a dirty word for me. =)
But then again, I don’t want children, I can earn enough for my needs, and I have enough friends to support me emotionally when I need it..
Why would I take a man whom I would find a sexual burden after a while?
Kate 4
In response to the above posts, I think that marrying someone who you’re not really attracted to (for the security, convenience etc.) is not smart, but very selfish. I don’t mean this to be unkind in saying this, but it is.
I was just perturbed by what I read above.
It’s unfair to get into a potentially life-long commitment with someone when you know in advance that engaging in one of the most pleasurable aspects of a relationship will become a chore. Especially when monogamy is (usually) a prerequisite, and so they have no real way to get their physical needs met elsewhere (except through porn etc.. which is hardly a substitute). Not to mention it’s dishonest to give the impression that you’re attracted to someone by offering lots of sex at the beginning, in order to “secure” their affection/commitment, only to knowingly taper it off as time goes on. And this is all aside from the emotional and psychological impact of sex, and the influence on someone’s emotional well-being when they are constantly rejected, sexually.
I know some may disagree, but I do think that unless a person is mentally or physically ill /disabled or pregnant, there is no excuse for not making sex a priority – whatever that means to those in the relationship. We owe it to the person we’re with, if we care even slightly about their wellbeing and happiness. Surely everyone deserves to be with someone who wants them, in every way, and not to be a second-best convenience that someone else has settled for… I know I’d be devastated if I ever found out that a partner wasn’t really attracted and viewed sex with me as a chore… Anyway, sorry for going slightly off topic
I’m 33 and my longest relationship has only been 5 years, but I can’t imagine having sex less than 3 times a week. Back in my earlier twenties I used to find it embarrassing to talk about what I wanted, sexually, but I agree that it’s essential to have those conversations, as relationships are so much better for them.
Anyway, sorry this is so long!
Selena 5
“If people value sex as an important part of their relationship, and almost everybody does, then they need to put sex higher up the priority list.’’
Something to consider when evaluating “the tingle” along with other “practical” qualities.
Regina 6
Sometimes the infrequency is due to ED and not necessarily a lack of desire or attraction. My last two long-term relationships were with guys in their mid-fifties. The older a man gets, it seems the less likely he is to be able to perform sexually. In both cases the guys took either Viagra or Cialis, but they were still either too tired or simply lacked the stamina they had in their younger years. I digress, but if I’m in my late 40s and these guys couldn’t keep up with me, how in the heck can a 50 year-old man satisfy a 30 something year old woman?
Cheryl 7
Amen, Regina!
Evan Marc Katz 8
I’ve tried to stay above the fray on this, but I must clarify again, for those who seem to make up words and attribute them to me.
I have never said that sexual attraction isn’t important in a relationship. (and if I actually did, I’d very much like you to call it to my attention)
What I’ve said, ad nauseum, over the past four years on this blog, is that when you let your loins make your decisions for you, quite often you learn that they’re not great judges of character. So instead of making instant sexual attraction on a first date dictate your future, consider that, in the long run, character is, at the very least, equally as important than lust. Lust generally wears off in relationships; character doesn’t.
Nowhere did I say that you shouldn’t be attracted to your partner or that attraction doesn’t matter. So please, stop attributing that to me, okay?
You do a great disservice to the advice I attempt to give when you misquote me and others take it as fact.
Thanks a bunch.
The Management.
deannie 9
What a good read! I was married for 16 years and finding the time and energy for quality sex became increasingly hard as the child grew. In my younger years I would definitely have balked at the idea of scheduling sex but at this point in my life, I would much prefer that to missed opportunities. For me, it has taken quite a bit of growing to mature & feel confident to talk about sex in this very area. Ridiculous! but true.
Thanks for posting this link Evan
Katarina Phang 10
Kate #5, I agree wholehartedly. I’ve been in a marriage in which my husband thought sex was a chore. And it killed the love and connection.
However I agree with Evan also that chemistry shouldn’t blind you because without compatibility and communication, the sex will be gone too in no time just as in my case. I knew from the get go compatibility -and communication- was an issue for me and my husband but I was so crazy attracted to him physically (apart from I felt special spiritual connection I couldn’t put into words). And it was a hard journey as a couple.
Sherell 11
Hmm based on the numbers seems like both men and women want more sex just not with their mate! LOL
hunter 12
You ladies were not told that a man is either a good lover or high earner? If you want both, you have to find two men.
Katarina Phang 13
Hunter, what if he’s neither?
Kate 14
To Evan: Sorry I think I expressed myself poorly, as my long and rambling post above was just in response to the two posters before me, who stated that “smart” women married soley for compatibility, and thus in the long-term would view sex as a chore.
I in no way disagree with anything you say on this fantastic blog. This is the first time I’ve posted here, but I’ve been an avid reader for years and agree entirely with all your advice. It has helped me immensely.
My point before was simply that the level of attraction (not lust or chemistry) shouldn’t be so low as to make regular sex a chore… I was objecting to the word “smart” being used to describe being with someone one isn’t that attracted to… What I’ve taken away more than anything from this blog, (that opened my eyes completely) was the need for balance.
Honey 15
Jake and I do not have sex as much as we’d like to in an ideal world, but because he is at work most days until 8 or 9 o’clock at night (at a job he hates), I understand why he’s not in the mood on weekdays. He is considering opening up his own business, which would probably be at least as much work as what he’s doing now but such a lightening of his load in terms of happiness (he’s really, really mistreated where he works now) that I think that would make a big difference.
Sarah 16
Evan,
I never said you said that. I know you don’t say that. But it’s not a terribly far leap from what you do say and post. Didn’t you post something recently about the case for settling? An article or something called “Marry Him….” Don’t remember off the top of my head. I know you don’t necessarily endorse all of that, but if you continue along that line of reasoning you can conclude that some women might feel they ought to give up attraction for companionship, stability, whatever. As I said in my earlier post: something is better than nothing.
Personally, I find it excruciatingly difficult to find someone I’m attracted to at all, let alone such a one who is attracted to me and treats me well. This may well be my own character flaw (there are probably some Daddy issues involved), but nonetheless it exists and so I have to deal with it. I have to consider whether I’d prefer to continue to hold out for what I really want (while I get older and my peak desirability gets farther away in my rear-view mirror), or settle for what I can get which has a lot of good qualities even if something desirable is missing. When I was younger I chose to hold out for better. What I ended up with was nothing. I don’t want to continue making that mistake. I’d rather have something than nothing.
Kate,
I understand your point but allow me to respond. I have not been dishonest with him and I would not. (And I never said that I was.) I have never had sex with him. I don’t even kiss him. Would it be unfair to him if I married him knowing I’m not attracted to him? Not if he knowingly agrees. I remember something, I think from that “Marry Him” article Evan posted, where the guy didn’t mind at all that his dream woman was settling for him. He got the woman of his dreams; SHE was the one who ended up disappointed. That’s how it might be with me and my guy. It’s not unfair to him if he’s willing; he might be delighted. Moreover, I could be talked into some sort of open-marriage arrangement if I am unable or unwilling to meet his physical needs.
So how would it be selfish to let him, if he so chooses, marry the woman of his dreams, meet his sexual needs on the side, and be fully aware of my honest position on the matter?
Evan Marc Katz 17
Sarah,
Thank you for your reasonable response, which is why I’m going to do my best to clarify once again:
You said: “If you continue along that line of reasoning you can conclude that some women might feel they ought to give up attraction for companionship, stability, whatever.”
You can play the “if you continue along that line of reasoning” trope but it’s not representative of what I ACTUALLY said. Similar lines of reasoning would say, “Obama has raised taxes on the top 2% of earners. It’s only a matter of time before we’re a socialist country,” or “Insisting on waiting periods for gun ownership means that the government is trying to destroy the 2nd Amendment and take away your right to hunt for deer.”
What I have said – what I will continue to say – and what I don’t want to get misquoted on ever again – is that since attraction leads to lots of bad decision making (think: most of our respective exes), instead of holding out for the “10″ attraction, be open to the 6.5-7 attraction because the compatibility might be a lot better in the long run. You will not find one place where I said to “give up” on attraction. And I can’t keep on taking the time to defend myself against something that I DIDN’T say – no more than Obama should have to defend himself against “death panels”.
A relationship with NO attraction is a non-starter. A relationship that’s all attraction is similar. A relationship with a 7 attraction and a 10 compatibility is one that’s built to last. Scour the blog. This is all I’ve ever said.
Stop being blinded by attraction does not mean “give up on” attraction.
So let’s stop putting your host on the defensive, shall we? I run a well-meaning blog with over 115,000 visitors last month. If you’re going to quote me, at least listen to my actual intent instead of assigning false meaning to something you thought I said.
Selena 18
Sarah,
Under your scenario, don’t you think it’s the slightest bit selfish to prevent your friend from finding a woman who would adore him, sexually included, by marrying you and your open marriage fantasies?
Daphne 19
Regina and Cheryl,
I am also in a relationship w a man in his late 50s and there is not necessarily a problem w satisfying a woman at that age. This is good because I am only ten years younger and most guys who wanted to date me when I was on a dating site were older than me.
If you’re just meeting a guy in that age category, his overall health and vigor can probably predict what will happen if you want to end up taking it further
Kate 20
Sarah, though I don’t agree with your reasoning I do understand your point, and not trying attack your point of view. But I must agree with Selena #18 that what you propose sounds a little selfish.
Obviously I don’t know your circumstances, but I’d guess that your guy could interpret your willingness to be with him as a sign of your eventually “coming around”. Even if he doesn’t admit it – possibly even to himself…. (Haven’t most of us who’ve adored someone that didn’t feel the same, hang around because we secretly hoped that in time we could change their minds. And how painful it would be to see someone trying and failing every time to win you over.) I agree that it’s not anyone’s responsibility to make decisions for another person, but I do think that we have some unspoken obligation to take responsibility for the impact our actions may have on another’s well-being. It’d be a huge risk to take with someone’s heart, as the devastation to them when you reject them and openly desire others, would be awful. I saw it happen to my cousin and it was not pleasant. You’re only his dream women if you desire him. No emotionally health person wants to be unattractive to their partner…
I think your kind of arrangement only really works when neither person has significant emotional attachment to the other. It sounds like you’ve given up, and feel that this is your last chance, and that’s such a shame… I wish you good luck!
sharon 21
Evan-
I think the inherent problem is how men a women view attraction. I don’t really thing about 1-10 rating systems it’s more of a pass fail scenario. I’ve never been kinda attracted to someone. So this going to 6.5 when you want an 8 thing is a little confusing. It’s not to say that all of the men I’ve been with are 8, some of the men have been traditionally more attractive than others. But I’ve desired all of them with a similar intensity. Maybe there is an elusive shade of gray in the spectrum of attraction and repulsion that I’ve somehow missed. So when you tell someone to consider men that are shorter for example, If she were attracted to shorter men I’m sure she would have been dating them already. It’s a no brainer if you’re attracted to someone are they’re attracted to you, it’s all gravy. So if you’re telling us to give bald, short, fat guys that you would never consider a shot. Men that we typically wouldn’t find attractive what does that mean? I could see where that would be valid advice for on-line dating but in day to day life I know if I’m attract to someone in less than 30 seconds. It’s either yes or no
Sharon 22
#21 Sharon you hit the nail on the head. For so many people there is yes you are attracted and no you are not. No in between. No sliding scale.
But maybe give the no’s a little more time. I suspect that 90% will remain a no and 10% may switch to a yes. It’s like the guys you initially find attractive and then you learn more about them and get turned off.
starthrower68 23
@ Kate #20,
You make some salient point. If one is the woman of a man’s dreams, then he is going to want to have sex with HER. He’s going to want the connection, the intimacy, etc. That man is going to be so happy to have the arm candy that he’s going to accept just paying the bills and providing the security, and just being able to look at her with no touching? I don’t think so. If a man is in love, he will be respectful and not push for sex, but eventually he will want to have sex before or after marriage.
Al 24
I wonder if couples who have been together a long time and are in the “he wants more/she wants less” dynamic are there in part because the relationship has other problems. A woman will be much less turned on by someone she does not have a strong connection with than a man will be. I also wonder if the man starts to take sex availability for granted and then gets into a pattern of not “winning” his partner. Maybe for many the hunter/receptive dynamic still needs attention.
@sharon Why does “lack of attraction only increase” over time? Once the initial chemistry fades, what is the reason for a continued decrease in attraction?
NN 25
There is this 20/80 rule. Which says that when you are in need, that thing has 80% importance, but when you have satisfied that need, that thing has max 20% of your attention.
Or it is a man vs woman thing.
I never ever have had a relationship that has strong sexual attraction and good sex, therefore I want it.
21# sharon said it :”I know if I’m attract to someone in less than 30 seconds. It’s either yes or no”
That is my point. If I want to have a relationship, the sexual attraction is there and I see it within 30 seconds, or it is NOT there…. and when the attraction is NOT there “advice try to make a relationship work by talking about sexual issues” is useless.
So in that, the advice that is here often.. “try to give 6,5 a chance” is just something I consider settling, since it means I just see his physical and mental attributes and they are ok, but I don’t feel drawn to him. I know that if I have sex with a 6,5 man, the novelty wears off within a week, and then I am bored as passion has died .. when I get annoyed as sex becomes a chore, and I feel suffocated and things slide south from there.
I have tried several times to make that kind of thing work, but if there is nothing more than novelty of new body with new tricks, I just lose interest totally and all attraction dies.
I am a male in that way, sex just is one thing that has to work. Sex is a priority, and I think that all that talk of “different sexual drives” is just based on fact that woman have chosen initially a wrong man (barely there “6,5″), learned to care for him and attraction feels more for a while – but since the initial attraction has been that “barely there 6,5″…. it returns to back to 6,5 and sex is then also “barely there”.. and what is there to look for sexually?
Which means then that woman’s interest to sex life just dies off, and then you hear woman say “sex is not important in a relationship, friendship is the important fact”, and the husband settles for having a “barely there” sex life.
How fair is that?
Sarah 26
Evan,
I’m sorry if I’ve made you defensive. What I’ve written has to do with my issues and my struggles to make sense of what I should do in my life. The truth is that for whatever reason I have a very hard time dealing with sex and attraction like a normal person. As a result of that I’ve had to ask myself whether I should settle simply because I’ve concluded from my experience that I’ll never have anything better than “settling.”
You are absolutely right that we shouldn’t be blinded by lust that is solely lust. I’ve been there and lived to regret it more than anything else I’ve ever done. But unfortunately for me the only alternatives I’ve had have been guys who weren’t attractive to me. And I would rather be with them than either nobody or blinding-chemistry bad guys. I would love to find something in between — a good guy with some amount of attraction. So far, no luck.
Sarah 27
Selena 18,
That is the question I struggle with. I go over it in my mind every day. Does he deserve someone who loves him more than I do? Probably yes. However:
1.) I haven’t completely given up on the possibility that love will grow (on my part, too). That’s what dating is about, right? I’m giving him a chance to win me over and earn my love. The more time we spend together the more comfortable we become together and the more we bond. With a previous boyfriend it took me two years, but I did eventually get to the point where I loved him. Earlier on it was much like with my current guy: no attraction and a feeling of settling. But over time it became genuine love.
2.) Even if I don’t ever grow to love him, is it selfish to give him the choice of being with me, knowing full well where I stand? He seems to be very much in love with me, is himself shy and bad at forming relationships, and might rather be with me even if I’m not crazy about him than try to find someone who is (which he might not find anyway). As I said before, he’d get to be with the woman of his dreams. If he chooses that, and I am honest about where I stand, how is that selfish of me?
Selena 28
Sarah,
What happens to him if at some point you find someone you are attracted to?
Sure he may have made a choice to be with a woman who he knew ‘settled’ for him, but what kind of salve do you think that would be when you dumped him? And depending how long it took you to do so…lot’s of wasted time he could have been spending with someone who really loved him. You aren’t responsible for his choices, but why would you want to risk hurting someone that way? For what? Because you don’t like being single?
Also, what about Starthrower’s comment #23? Men want their “dreamgirl” to have sex with them, not get their sexual needs met elsewhere because dreamgirl finds him sexually repugnant. What makes you think your friend would choose a marriage like this? Or stick to it? What if while “getting his needs met” elsewhere, he falls in love with someone else? Where does that leave you and your ….marriage of convenience? I don’t even know what to call it.
starthrower68 29
I would also ask Sarah about making him “earn” her love. If love cannot be freely given, that’s not a relationship I would want to be part of. It smacks of tossing treats out to a faithful pet.
In the meantime, I think the following article explains alot:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/science-confirms-men-and-women-never-meant-to-be-m,19838/
sharon 30
She didn’t say she wouldn’t have sex with him. Just not often. Hugh Hefner is a great example. Always has a few young beautiful girls so the burden of sex is spread out amongst them. If we look at men with money and power the trend seems to be to choose beautiful women that most likely won’t find them attractive but are willing to settle for them for a life of luxury. Do you pity the Donalds of the world?
Margo 31
Well, my last relationship was with a man that was 52 to my 43. He had ED and didn’t reveal that to me unti we were in the midst of a sexual encounter and he lost his erection-Yeah, true scumbag, lol. Anyway, I’m SURE that fact was part of what made him so mean and nasty. He kept his true nature hidden for awhile, but when it came out I left. I believe I would have left anyway because of the ED. He couldn’t sustain an erection at certain times of the day, like in the afternoon. The reality is that eventually I would have gotten tired of it as I was already very close to that point already.
Never again will I become involved with a man who has ED. This is one reason I’m leary of older men. However, if a man has no sexual problems to begin with, I would consider a man 10 to 12 years older if he met my other criteria.
starthrower68 32
@Sharon #30,
Well if your analogy is correct, hopefully this sexually repugnant boyfriend has lots of money to make up for his lack of sex appeal. If that sounds crass, that’s how I read what you are saying. Evan has said it many times: a man wants a woman who wants HIM.
Goldie 33
@ Margo #31:
“Never again will I become involved with a man who has ED.”
I have a few comments on this one…
1) From what I hear, with this rule, you will eliminate pretty much anyone over 45, maybe 40, even. (I’m 43 as well, and prefer to date within my age group.)
2) There are pills for that! Work like a charm.
3) Realistically, how will you find out if a guy does or does not have ED? Cannot very well ask him about it on your first date, can you? You won’t know until the two of you are pretty heavily involved.
Karl R 34
Margo said: (#31)
“Never again will I become involved with a man who has ED.”
Are you aware that a man who doesn’t have erectile dysfunction could develop it (for example, after you’re married)? The possible causes include certain medications, certain surgeries, some injuries, diabetes, hardening of the arteries and depression.
Goldie said: (#33)
“From what I hear, with this rule, you will eliminate pretty much anyone over 45, maybe 40, even.”
That’s incorrect.
According to this source: at age 40, about 20% of men have ED. That increases by about 1% per year. 25% of men never have ED.
But I agree that ED is a treatable condition, and therefore no big deal. Similarly, post-menopausal women suffer from vaginal dryness. There’s a cream for that, so it’s not an issue.
sharon 35
@Starthrower
I would not choose to be with someone for the sake of being with someone. However, I don’t feel bad for men that choose women that aren’t attracted to them. If a man wants a trophy and a lady is jaded enough to choose comfort over love instead of the single life, I’m not judging.
Goldie 36
@ Karl #34:
“25% of men never have ED.”
Wow. Visions of my future life in a nursing home just got a lot more exciting, thank you!
Sarah 37
Selena,
If I make a commitment to someone, I am not going to run off with someone else. I tend to bond with an individual over time. If you think I would throw away my family because I find someone else good looking, you don’t know me. Oh, wait; that’s right, you DON’T know me! So you can stop with the judging, hmm?
Starthrower can’t speak for all men, including my guy. If my bf is willing to be with me under the circumstances, that’s his choice, whether Starthrower would make the same choice or not.
Starthrower, it looks to me like you’re just trying to pick apart my words. Anyone, male or female, who is trying to make a good impression when on a date is trying to earn the other’s favor. If you don’t like my choice of words then feel free to substitute your own reasonable words to the same effect. Dating is a process of getting to know someone and deciding whether or not s/he is right for you. The person makes a good impression, or not. He or she wins you over, or not. You don’t start out giving love freely to the other person. That takes time.
Of course love has to be earned; you’re not going to freely give love to a hateful lunatic. (Are you?!)
Karl R 38
Sarah said: (#37)
“Starthrower, it looks to me like you’re just trying to pick apart my words.”
That’s not the kind of person starthrower68 is.
As a man, I don’t enter a relationship seeing if I can “win over” and “earn” the love of the woman I’m dating. I enter it to see if we are a good match for each other.
Your words are the vehicle by which you express your thoughts. If you chose your words poorly, feel free to rephrase in a more accurate manner. But I have to concur with starthrower68, if you tell a man that you expect him to earn your love, I think most self-respecting men won’t bother to call you again.
starthrower68 39
Sarah, you may mean things one way. But the man you’re dating may perceive it as another.
starthrower68 40
Oh, and btw Sarah, God loves the hateful lunatic. And we’re called to love one another the way God loves us. You don’t have to stay with the hateful lunatic, but hate the sin not the sinner. Evan has told us more than once how the love Mrs. Katz loves him unconditionally and that’s one of the reasons he married her. Sorry for the double post, EMK….
Margo 41
@Goldie #23, Karl is right, you are incorrect on point 1, in fact, you are incorrect on all your points.
1) There are men well into their sixties who don’t have ED.
2) Medications don’t work on all men. They didn’t work for the guy I was dating. According to him, his doctors told him there was nothing they could do for him surgically either.
3) “How do I expect to find out if a guy does or does not have ED? An honest conversation, that’s how. No, I don’t expect this conversation to take place on the first date-unless we plan to have sex, then I do. I do, however, expect this conversation to occur when we our having the “exclusive” conversation and before we have sex.
@Karl #34, Yes, I’m aware that a man can develop ED after we are involved. Anybody can develop almost any disease or disorder. Still, I would rather know if the man has that condition before I become involved, not after. In short, I don’t want to be decieved.
@ Sarah #2, I know I made a point to you about your situation with this guy on another thread, but after reading your post here, my conclusion is you’re not being fair to him. You are USING him. You don’t really want hm for him; you want him for what he can do for you. Have some integrity and let him go to find the woman that will really love him, and not just settle for him. Don’t do this to him, or yourself.
hunter 42
doesn’t the golden rule apply here, “once the money diminishes in a relationship so does the sex”?
Jadafisk 43
Um… men reach their salary/career zenith in middle age, which is the same time they start to experience a sexual drought in their marriages.
Sarah 44
Good grief, people. You’re very skilled at twisting things — I suspect because it’s easier than admitting that the person you’re ganging up on maybe isn’t really all that bad.
I will say a few things to defend myself, and then leave since I’m growing weary of being sniped at.
Karl 38, I don’t know Starthrower from Adam. All I know of him/her is how s/he presents him/herself — the words s/he uses. Kinda what you picked on me for, hmm?
I don’t TELL my date that I expect him to win me over. Everybody knows that when you go on a date, you’re supposed to try to make a good impression. Everybody knows that when you ask someone out, it’s probably because you’re interested in that person and you’d like her to become interested in you too. Of course it’s also to see if there’s compatibility, but be honest: you don’t ask out just anyone who could conceivably be compatible: you ask out one you find attractive. And then you hope that, if it goes well, she’ll find you attractive too. And that will be based on your behavior, inter alia.
Finally, Karl, my guy keeps coming back. (Most guys I’ve dated have kept coming back, again and again.) By your standards I guess they have no self-respect, eh? Either that or they’re getting the real me, and not the twisted and picked-apart version that people online have decided to believe in because they’d rather harp on semantics than give any thought to what is obviously my true meaning.
Starthrower 40, whether God loves someone has nothing to do with this. I can’t believe it’s even necessary to explain this to you. Would you date a criminal because God loves him/her? Would you date someone who lies and deceives and cheats and etc. etc. because God loves him/her? Don’t play dumb; you know this discussion is about dating, not about whether someone is going to heaven. Are you that desperate to stick to your original argument against me? For real?
It’s hard to believe I’m the only one here who believes that it’s normal to try to make a good impression on a date (especially one you requested), and to expect the person who asked you out to try to make a good impression on you. What kind of community have I stumbled into here?!
Sarah 45
Margo,
I thought I explained, but I will try one last time. It is possible that I will grow to love this guy. It happened at least once before with a man I initially found unattractive. As I see it, the point of dating is to find out if you get along and can love each other; I am still in the “undecided” phase. I haven’t decided I’ll never love him, or that I will. I don’t know. You are wrong to say I want him for what he can do for me rather than for himself. No; I am with him because it’s possible that I will develop genuine feelings for him. If I could know for sure that I never will, I’d walk away and never look back. If I just wanted someone for what he could do for me, well, I could have had a millionaire, but I didn’t….
I am not at all convinced that I am using him. I have always been completely honest with him. If I were just out to lay claim to him for my own purposes, I would pretend to care more than I do. I don’t pretend anything. He knows what he’s getting with me, so if he keeps coming back, then he can’t be too unhappy with it.
starthrower68 46
“Starthrower 40, whether God loves someone has nothing to do with this. I can’t even believe its necessary to explain this to you. Would you date a criminal because God loves him or her? Would you date someone who lies, decieves, cheats, etc. etc. etc. because God loves him/her? Don’t play dumb; you know this discussion is about dating, not about whether someone is going to heaven. Are you that desperate to stick to your original argument against me? For real?”
Now who’s playing dumb? My comment was CLEARLY about unconditional love. I said nothing about who’s going to heaven or being willing to date those with poor character and other issues. I’ll repeat myself again in case it was missed, but Evan has said several times that Mrs. Katz is Mrs. Katz because she loves him unconditionally; Evan points out what he sees as his shortcomings when he says this. Sarah, you can be mad at me if you want to, I have no problem with it, and you can ignore the points I make as well. But if you’re ever in a relationship where you’re more into the guy than he is into you, remember your words when he doesn’t commit as quickly as you’d like.
Margo 47
Sarah says: “If I marry the guy I’m currently dating, I will NOT want to have sex with him much.”
Doesn’t he deserve better than that, Sarah?? Doesn’t everybody?
Let him go. Nobody’s trying to pick on you Sarah. We’re trying to keep you from ruining this man’s life.
sharon 48
So we’re shallow if we like attractive men and selfish for trying to like unattractive men. So no matter what Sarah there are a couple of people that would like to jam us in between a rock and a hard place. Lovely. Sarah as long as you’re honest and up front no one has the right to fault you. Both you and your boyfriend are consenting adults capable of making their own decisions.
Margo some men what women that love them, some men like pretty women that will tolerate them. It sucks but it’s true. If this man chooses a women out of his league as opposed to a women that is mutual attracted, that is his choice to make.
Starthrower in polite conversation one does not mention politics, religion or money unless they want to stir the pot. One particularly could take offense while invoking the name of god while condemning someone’s personal choices.
Karl the entire ritual of courting is about earning a woman’s attention. It’s been ingrained in our culture for centuries. Any woman with self respect will expect a man to prove his intentions. And for all your gabbing about how people can alter who their attracted to through will power I’d think you’d be much more supportive of Sarah trying to make a relationship with a kind stable guy work. How would you suggest she expand her perimeters of attractions with out sticking with it and working through it?
If we were living in an idealistic world everyone would end up in love with beautiful people that loved them equally. This is reality. People settle. So can we all get off our high horses now?
Katarina Phang 49
I’m not the champion of “settling” because I won’t do it myself personally but I agree with Sharon #48 and see where Sarah is coming from, especially #45.
At the end of the day life is about choice, if the choice is between living a life of loneliness and being with someone you’re not so into the way you once thought/expected you would meet one day, can you blame a person for choosing the later?
Again, we shouldn’t settle, ideally, but many people do one way or another. If it is something they can live for -and taking into account the no better alternative-, who are we to judge?
I understand Sarah’s frustration with finding chemistry and compatibility. Those together are rare indeed as my own experience attests. I won’t marry a guy whom I’m not attracted to, but I will perhaps consider having an open relationship with a guy I haven’t developed total chemistry with and have a child together if he agrees push comes to shove since I can’t wait forever, and see down the road if we can be a real permanent couple.
Everything is relative. It pretty much boils down to what options you have.
starthrower68 50
Nobody’s on a high horse, Sharon. If you’re entitled to your opinion, so are the rest of us. All we’re doing is backing up why we’re thinking they way we do just like you and Sarah are. If you want to post on this blog, disagreement is the risk you run and there’s not a one of us who posts on here that has escaped that. I also reject your assertion that I’m just using “religion” to stir the pot. In case you haven’t seen it, there have been several topics posted in which religion, (faith for me, but I’ll allow your minimizing term) money, and politics are discussed. They’re discussed in polite conversation all the time, perhaps just not the conversations in which you are engaged.
starthrower68 51
Katrina, you are correct. The discussion is purely academic anyway because people generally do what they WANT to do. I just enjoy the lively debate. Keeps the skills sharp.
Karl R 52
sharon said: (#48)
“the entire ritual of courting is about earning a woman’s attention. It’s been ingrained in our culture for centuries.”
Dating has changed over the centuries … or even the last several decades.
I’m a better-than-average dancer. I usually gain a potential date’s attention while I’m dancing with another woman. By the time I ask her to dance, I’ve already won that battle.
Why would I spend the entire rest of the courtship stuck on something that I accomplished before the first date?
Sarah said: (#44)
“Everybody knows that when you go on a date, you’re supposed to try to make a good impression.”
When I go on a date, I let the woman see me as I am 90% (or more) of the time. I’m not trying to “make a good impression.” I’m just being me.
My behavior comes across as relaxed. It comes across as genuine. And by being relaxed and genuine, I stand out from most other men.
sharon said: (#48)
“Any woman with self respect will expect a man to prove his intentions.”
Before … what?
My girlfriend explicitly asked me my intentions when I mentioned moving in together. (She’d had problems with two boyfriends who’d moved in “temporarily,” then took years to move out. She had sworn never to have another boyfriend move in on a temporary basis.)
Other than that, she has never asked me my intentions. Nor has she asked me to “prove” anything.
We spent enough time getting to know each other to realize that we’re good together. That’s it.
sharon said: (#48)
“I’d think you’d be much more supportive of Sarah trying to make a relationship with a kind stable guy work.”
If that were the extent of the situation, I would be.
However, Sarah has talked about not wanting to have sex with him very often (#2). I’ve personally experienced how much strain sexual incompatability puts on a relationship.
Sarah has talked about having an open relationship (#16). Of the people I’ve known who have tried open relationships, the vast majority have failed. Even the one which “succeeded” over the long term had issues with lying and jealousy.
Sarah has stated that she’s put off by his personality (in another thread). That’s a different issue.
Finally, Sarah has repeatedly stated that her boyfriend is “better than nothing.” I’m not certain whether Sarah is happy being single, so I can’t accurately assess that statement. However, I get the impression that she isn’t happy with the thought of remaining single indefinitely. So that statement doesn’t inspire confidence in her satisfaction with the relationship.
Sarah said: (#44)
“I don’t TELL my date that I expect him to win me over.”
That would explain why your date asked you out again.
If you want to test his self-respect, go ahead and tell him.
Sarah 53
Sharon and Katarina, THANK YOU. It’s nice to FINALLY see someone here who gets it.
Evan tells us over and over, in his own words, basically to give a non-perfect guy a chance. When a client complains about how a guy was less than ideal on a first date, he counsels her to try again with him. That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to do with my guy. I’m trying to not hastily write him off for being imperfect. (And I’m doing so with the best of intentions, open to the possibility of developing genuine love, and not lying to him in any way.) Anyone here who wants to fault me obviously doesn’t believe in Evan’s philosophy.
The bottom line is nobody but me and my guy have any right to judge either one of us for what we are doing. There is no deception or malice on my part, and I believe no major character flaws on his part either. What we do is our business, and based on what I’ve seen here I now trust my own judgment a lot more than that of most posters here. People here take a few words out of context without really understanding much about either one of us, and spin that into my “ruining the guy’s life”!
Right, Margo, really, I’m going to “ruin his life.” By giving him an opportunity to marry the woman of his dreams, have sex that will probably be less frequent and/or passionate than many individuals prefer as their ideal (and how often do we find everything we consider ideal anyway?), and thereby take him away from the life he had before me: so terribly shy he dated NO ONE and had NO SEX AT ALL. Ruining his life by giving him this option with no deceit whatsoever. Yup, I’m ruining his life all right. Poor guy!
Margo 54
Well, you know what Sharon? Sarah is NOT being honest with this guy. If she told him that bit about how she ”will NOT be having much sex with him”-her words, I’ll bet any amount of money that he’ll bail on her so fast it’ll leave skid marks in her driveway. Unless this is an old man, he will not appreciate being denied sex, and he’s not going to be happy like that. Sarah is using him. Period.
Margo 55
Sharon and Katrina, I have a question for you both: If you two had a son that you love, would you want him being with a woman like Sarah if you knew this woman felt the same way about YOUR son that Sarah feels about her guy?…
starthrower68 56
I think we get what Evan says pretty well, and until Evan himself tells me I’m not getting it, I will believe that I am.
Ruby 57
Sarah #53
Since no one has asked, I’m curious to know how long you’ve been dating your boyfriend. If it’s only been a few weeks or a couple of months, then I don’t think that giving it more time to see if stronger feelings will develop is necessarily a bad thing. However, if it’s been over a few months, it seems doubtful that things will improve dramatically. If you really can’t stand the thought of even just kissing him now (let alone having sex with him), what do you think it will be like 10 or 20 years from now? It’s easy to brush that off now, but the reality of such a situation isn’t very pleasant.
As Evan said in an earlier post, “I have never said that sexual attraction isn’t important in a relationship.” I don’t think he’s ever said that you should stick it out with a guy you have no sexual feelings for, just because he’s nice and he likes you.
Laine 58
Sarah , I understand where you are coming from too. Thank you for sharing your experience. Attraction is such a subjective paradigm. Over the years I have felt intense attraction on first seeing someone, only to see them at a later time and not feel attracted at all. Some men I initially did not feel attracted to, but it developed over time when I had the opportunity to see them in many different circumstances, for instance at work. Having children changed my perception as well. I can remember seeing men at my childrens preschool, being tender with their child and how attractive they seemed. If I had met them when single I may not have found them to be so. And how many of us have been madly in love in our 20′s only to run into the object of our desire years later and wonder what we ever saw in them.
Someone mentioned unconditional love in a previous post.There are 3 types of love. Eros, Philos and Agape. Unconditional love is not part of Eros love.
Best wishes Sarah
Gem 59
Sarah,
I don’t think you and your boyfriend would be wrong if you chose to marry under your circumstances. I don’t understand why you’re being given such a hard time. If you and your guy are honest with each other about the situation, well, I’ve seen people get married for worse reasons and make it work.
The real question is: Is it worth the risk? The odds are that it won’t work long term. Once you’re in it for 2,3,5 years….you both will be focusing on what you’re missing. One or both of you may very well grow resentful of the other and you may end up divorced and having lost those years to possibly find the right one.
I say stay with each other for for companionship for as long as, and until one of your heads is turned by the right person. Don’t marry and obligate kids with these odds stacked against you.
Good Luck!
Katarina Phang 60
Margo #55, he’s an adult and he has to decide for himself. He knows all the facts, right…and if he goes for it then it’s his personality (he’s not of the bad boy variety women are attracted to and has issues meeting women, remember?)! You can’t change anyone. If that’s his best option for him as he sees it, you can only support him.
Selena 61
What I don’t understand is what is so horrible about being single that a person would choose a passionless, perhaps loveless marriage in order to avoid it?
Laine 62
@ 61….having babies !
Selena 63
@#62
40% of babies are born to unmarried parents in the US. And given the divorce stats?…a staggering number of children born to married parents will experience changed circumstances at some point. So how is a passionless, perhaps loveless marriage a preferred situation to have a baby?
starthrower68 64
@ Gem #59,
So, unconditional love not being part of eros love, what keeps you in a relationship on those days when you don’t feel passionate about that person and really don’t even like them very much? What makes you forgive that person if he hurts you? And how many times has Evan said that part of the reason his wife is his wife is because she loves him unconditionally? You’d better hope there’s unconditional love in there or you may find yourself alone when someone isn’t really feeling it for you a few years into the relationship.
starthrower68 65
Sorry comment meant for Laine #58. My bad Gem!
Gem 66
Starthrower,
“So, unconditional love not being part of eros love, what keeps you in a relationship on those days when you don’t feel passionate about that person and really don’t even like them very much?”
Commitment does. AND the underlying reasons for why I chose my partner to begin with: love, friendship, passion, respect, acceptance…
I know one does not *feel* passion every day, but if it’s never there to begin with, I don’t see the arrangement Sarah is considering lasting. Just my opinion. I don’t think she or her man would be wrong for creating such a union, but deep down, I’m sure they both want passion and to be “in love” with their partner and I fear that it wouldn’t stand the long term. Once the wedding cake is eaten and the day to day business of marriage is underway, I predict that they’d start focusing on what they are missing.
It’s a risk that she seems to be eyes-wide-open to because she fears what she really wants will never come. I think once she HAS the settled-for marriage, her human nature of pining for what she really wants will take over. I’m concerned for both of them and the potential children in this scenario. But if they are both 100% on board with settling and have given up the dream of the *right* one, hey, they’re grown adults, go for it.
“You’d better hope there’s unconditional love in there or you may find yourself alone when someone isn’t really feeling it for you a few years into the relationship.”
Again, I’d say commitment is more important than unconditional love. Commitment will see you through when you may not *feel* very loving. It’s a choice and an action to commit to honor, respect and be there for your partner and not bail because you had a bad day.
Margo 67
Another thing that Sarah probably hasn’t considered is that if she marries this man not really loving him, when any kids they have realize she doesn’t love their father-and they will-the likelihood of them turning on Sarah is high.
Laine 68
63-Probably easier than doing it on your own, especially financially and some no doubt want their children to have both a mother and father.
Vicki 69
You don’t have to choose a passionless, loveless marriage in order to have a family.
It’s not a question of either/or. A lot of the best marriages start as friendships, and aren’t particularly passionate in the beginning. However, if you’ve been dating him for a while & just can’t see the guy in a romantic light at all; if you can’t see *ever* being attracted to him… Well, you *have* kissed him, right? When a woman kisses a man, either the bells go off or they don’t. It’s nature’s way of letting you know whether he is a compatible match genetically, so you can have healthy offspring. If the kiss is like kissing a dead fish, you should rethink marrying him anyway. The odds are it’s not a good match, genetically, and you might even have difficulty conceiving with him.
I have a male friend who is very romantically interested in me, but I can’t see it at all. And I mean NOT AT ALL. I don’t want to hurt his feelings, but this friendship will always remain a friendship. There is no mutual attraction. He’s nice to me, even watered my cats and watched the house when I was out of town last week at a relative’s funeral, but if he asks me out I will have to explain to him that I’m seeing someone already. At this point, he hasn’t really *asked* me out (he mentioned something about taking me out to dinner sometime, but I don’t count that as asking, since it was vague and he didn’t suggest a day or time). As far as I’m concerned, my personal life is none of his business, so unless he specifically asks me out on a date for a specific day and time, I’m not going to tell him about my boyfriend, b/c it’s simply none of his business. I’ll give him the “bad news” when he asks, and not before.
Attraction is tricky. A lot of people have false attractions, based on early childhood experiences. Others don’t realize that what they have on their “list” are qualities that they aren’t actually attracted to in the real world. What I mean by that is, they will experience chemistry with someone they don’t expect to have chemistry with, because so many books and so much dating advice tells you to find someone who is the same as you, instead of finding someone who is *complementary* to you. (Evan never makes this mistake of course!!)
My current bf has a lot of good qualities, but he has a lot of personality “quirks” I might have rejected him for, if I were still trying to find a guy who is “just like me.” His sense of humor is a lot more raunchy than mine, probably b/c of his military background, but the basics are there: we both want a long-term relationship, marriage, and maybe even a child (in his case, he would like to have another, since his 2 are grown, but it doesn’t appear to be a deal-breaker for him if I’m too old at this point – not that I wouldn’t try anyway!).
In addition to that, because I gave him a chance even though we weren’t the same personality type, the relationship has a LOT more attraction!
I will just recommend a book to you that I think Amazon has: “Relationship Strategies: The E & P Attraction”, by Dr. John G. Kappas. It’s a really good exploration of how and why “opposites attract” and how to find your perfect opposite –it even gives a few tips for writing personal ads, although nothing about online dating, since the book predates the internet – it has stayed in print all these years b/c E & P is such a simple yet elegant concept that really helps people improve their relationships and start choosing the right kinds of people to date.
I suspect Sarah has met someone who is the same type that she is (either they are both E’s or they are both P’s). They get along well because they understand each other, and it is possible to have a good friendship with someone who is the same as you, but the chemistry of attraction won’t happen. You can’t have the chemistry without some oppositeness (is that a word?) in your partner.
I am an E and I was always so scared of the male P’s that I met, so I dated only other E’s — for over 20 years, until I turned 40 and wondered why the heck am I still single? I read Kappas’ book, and when I met my current bf I realized he met every qualification of a perfectly opposite P. In the past, I would NOT have dated him!! But because I was willing to try, and go out with him a few more times, I’m amazed at how strong the attraction is!
Margo 70
@Gem #66, IMHO commitment is not going to keep a marriage together without unconditional love. People break commitments all the time. Just check out the current divorce rate.
So, if a man doesn’t love you, I don’t see him sticking around. If he does stick around, without that unconditional love, I believe he’ll be much more prone to having one or more affairs during the marriage. Ouch!
starthrower68 71
@ Gem #66,
I must respectfully ask, where does the commitment come from? When that person isn’t doing what you want them to do or “earning” your love? It might take years to transition from pure “eros” to a mix of eros, agape, etc. but its part of the equation. When a spouse treats the other spouse unselfishly and puts the other spouse first, that is unconditional love, unless there are other motives driving that.
Gem 72
Starthrower,
“I must respectfully ask, where does the commitment come from?”
It comes from a choice.
I never said anything about someone “earning” my love or doing what I want them to do in order for me to love them.
Margo,
“IMHO commitment is not going to keep a marriage together without unconditional love. People break commitments all the time. Just check out the current divorce rate.”
As I said, commitment is a choice. People stop loving each other every day too resulting in divorce.
When people go through very dark times when they don’t feel love for their partner, when they don’t even like them, it’s the commitment that keeps them there working through it when they are feeling anything but love.
Example: I watched a friend’s marriage crumble because her husband had a long term affair and the affair woman had his child. She wasn’t sure she loved her husband anymore. The pain, betrayal, disrespect and devistation took her over. Yet, she made a commitment to him that she wanted to honor. It took years for her to fully re-discover the love she once felt for him. She wasnt’ sure she ever would. It was her commitment that made her stay when she didn’t FEEL unconditional love. In fact, she felt homocidal for quite some time.
An extreme example but nontheless big problems or small, feelings can be deceiving and tricky. You can choose to stay with someone and work out any number of painful things if you commit to do so when you can’t even find the love.
I personally identify more with my commitment and desire for the survival of the relationship during those times to push to the other side.
But I wouldn’t choose to marry someone that I didn’t love first anyway so it’s not like I’m choosing one over the other. I want both.
RW 73
Great article Evan! It is getting very tough to “make” the time with a lot of things these days – but finding time to be intimate with our mates is a must (technology is changing our ways of living each and every day).
As far as changing the way that I talk to my partner about sex … no, I don’t think it is necessary.
NonExist 74
Whoa!
I’m a guy who has never really been picky about too much except for honesty and direct communication.
I just dig the feminine essence so much that…just being around a lady whose interests match mine is just wonderful. Maybe because I do not believe there is a one for me, just some ladies who happen to be awesome supplements to my own enjoyment of living.
But reading some of the ladies comments makes me rather hesitant to continue dating.
And knowing I’m not the top percentile guy I’d really feel bad knowing someone just settled for me….just because I was a stable choice and yet she did not find me particularly sexually or physically appealing….. yet some have and have not told their mates.
Makes me rethink why my ex wife did what she did. I kind of felt it but it would have been easier to take if she told me and would have not wasted time for either of us.
And even girlfriends in the past.
lolz…nuts