Can a Hot Woman Like Me Hold Out on Sex Until I Get a Commitment?

Can a Hot Woman Like Me Hold Out on Sex Until I Get a Commitment?

I’m a 31-year old woman, and have been dating a lot but have had little success. I’d say I’m in the very attractive category and have no trouble getting casual dates, but few guys seem serious. (I did see, and really appreciated, your post dedicated to the plight of pretty girls!) My last failed attempt has me really wondering what I’m doing wrong.

After about 4 dates (each time he’d follow up right away to tell me he had fun and wanted to see me soon), I spent a lot of time with this new guy one weekend and he introduced me to all his friends, who were very welcoming. The next weekend, we had a great evening together and went to his place, but I told him I wasn’t ready to have sex. He asked me why, and I told him truthfully that I really liked him, and that I wanted to be sure that we weren’t seeing other people first. I told him I could see myself getting more attached to him if we got really physical and just wanted to know there might be something there. Then I said that I was perfectly willing to talk about it all now if he was too. He said he understood, but didn’t say anything more just cuddled with me. We fell asleep together, then spent the next morning out for brunch and wandering around the local farmer’s market (his ideas). He seemed that day to be truly enjoying my company. But since then, he never called me again.

I accept that he’s no longer interested, and I’m prepared to be realistic and move on from this particular guy. I feel like it’s a good thing that I made my feelings clear — he responded by showing his true intentions were not to have a relationship but to just get laid. But how can this possibly keep happening? It’s pretty hard to think that he did such a 180 for any other reason than that I put my feelings out there. I feel fairly confident that if I had slept with him he would have made sure to see me again. You have said in your posts that sometimes you have to take a leap, but it can’t possibly be true that I have to “leap” and have sex with someone who’s just not quite willing to commit *yet* and then wait for him to decide that he’s willing to admit that he has feelings for me a few months later. Maybe in this case he really is seeing other people, but this scenario keeps repeating itself for me.

I think I must be doing something wrong, but I just refuse to accept that not having sex until he commits to me is the wrong decision. How many times do I have to go through this painful process before a guy (and a guy that I’m into) will be so crazy about me that he just says, okay, whatever you need – time, commitment, you’ve got it! I guess what I’m really asking for is some reassurance that a hot girl can hold out on sex without lowering her chances of finding a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her.

Thanks in advance for helping a girl out,

Colette

Dear Colette,

Guys want sex. Factor in that “great, sexy, confident guys” are more likely to be able to get sex in most circumstances, and, well, if you won’t give it to them, someone else will.

“Can a hot girl hold out on sex”? Yes.

“Can a hot girl hold out on sex and still hope to find a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her?” Yes.

Can a hot girl hold out on sex without lowering her chances of finding a great, sexy and confident guy who’s really into her?” No. Holding out on sex will inherently lower your chances of finding a guy.

Why? Because guys want sex. Factor in that “great, sexy, confident guys” are more likely to be able to get sex in most circumstances, and, well, if you won’t give it to them, someone else will.

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

In fact, I want to laud you for waiting for a commitment before sex. If more women did that, there would be a lot less post-coital heartbreak. Alas, there would be a lot more of the pre-coital disappointment you’ve described above.

Choose your poison.

You feel “fairly confident” that he would have called you again after sex. What about all the other women who felt the same way and got burned? Clearly, you’re damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t.

So what’s a girl to do?…

Well, if you follow my advice – and, by refusing sex before a commitment, you have been – you get to see a man’s true stripes. If he steps up and commits to you, you have an answer. If he bails on you, you have an answer.

The only thing you can do differently is consider HOW you’re refusing to have sex. From your story, it sounded like you approached it in a healthy, adult fashion. But I wasn’t there. You may have felt that you were just speaking your mind and explaining your deep-seated reasons and ethics. Maybe all he heard was, “No. I don’t find you attractive.”

The disconnect between what we mean and what other people hear is at the heart of many relationship issues. Which is why it’s always valuable to step into the shoes of your partner – to attempt to see things through his eyes.

One thing that most women don’t know about men – in fact, one thing that MEN don’t even know about themselves – is that we are like sharks. We always need to be moving forward and making progress. If we’re not, we might as well be dead.

Consider a man who writes to you on Match.com. “You look hot. I want to meet. Here’s my number.”

An inartful come-on line, to say the least. But it’s how you deal with it that determines whether he sticks around for more. If you tell him, “I don’t feel comfortable talking to strangers on the phone. Why don’t you email me more about yourself?” you can pretty much say goodbye. It’s not that your desire to get to know him better was wrong. It’s that you told him “No! Your way is wrong. My way is right. Follow my rules.”

We want to make progress in the bedroom…to know that we’re headed in that direction EVENTUALLY.

A better way to approach this would be to be playful. “You’re right. I am hot. :-) But you know that good girls like me don’t call boys like you first. So, before we go any further, why don’t you tell me about the first time you…visited Europe . And don’t leave out any details. Inquiring minds want to know. Talk to you soon, sweetie!”

See the difference? One is terse and negative. The other is playful and encouraging. Playing a little hard to get – while still remaining completely available – raises your value. It makes him want to chase. It makes the process of getting to know you fun. And, most of all, it doesn’t tell him NO. It tells him, LATER. All he has to do is follow your directions and he’ll get what he wants.

Your job is to make your directions fun for him to follow.

Similarly, men want to feel we’re making progress in the bedroom. It’s not that we need to sleep with you on Date 1 or 2 or 3. It’s that we want to know that we’re headed in that direction EVENTUALLY. How you handle us in this delicate arena is a big factor in whether we choose to come back for more.

Put it this way: if I go out with a woman and kiss her on Date 1, that’s great. If I go out with her, and can’t do any more than kiss her on Date 2, I might get a little frustrated. If I go out with her and get stuck in the kissing zone on Date 3, I’m pretty sure that that will be the last date. I know. It sounds awful. But I can’t be the only guy who works this way.

A woman is not wrong for keeping her shirt on. But her refusal to make any sexual progress unintentionally makes a guy feel rejected, and most guys aren’t going to like it. I’m pretty sure it’s why they invented “bases” in high school. We don’t need to go all the way, but getting to second and having a view of third shouldn’t be out of the question. Regardless of whether you agree with me, for most confident, sexy, 35-year-old men, staying on “first” for a month is not a viable option.

So without getting all sordid, Colette, ask yourself how you made your partner feel on this fourth date. Was it all about you? Your morals, your desires, your past heartbreak? Or did you consider that he might like you – and that it’s hard for him stick with a woman who doesn’t make him feel attractive or desired?

I don’t know him. Maybe he was just a run of the mill player.

I don’t know you. Maybe you did all the right things.

But just because a man’s desires run counter to yours doesn’t mean they’re wrong. It means you have to find a way to let him know that, with proper communication, you can BOTH get what you want.

This, by the way, is the key to ALL dating and relating – understanding the opposite sex and finding a path that keeps both man and woman satisfied.

To learn how to get your needs met, while still keeping a man satisfied, check out my audio series, Finding the One Online. In a few hours, you will learn the secret to attracting the best men online and screening them, using my “The 2/2/2” rule, to ensure the highest quality first dates.

In three months, you will view dating and men in an entirely new way. And that’s a good thing!

Click here to learn more.

Much love,

Your friend,

Evan

29
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Comments:

  1. 61
    vino

    Re: CR’s #51….

    Not picking an argument, but challenging assumptions.

    “I always get the idea . . . some men assume sexual desire to be the exclusive province of men . . ., women got the stuff that men want . . . they hold all the cards and are using them to manipulate the men. Is this an accurate summation of the discussion here?”

    – I’d say that isn’t accurate. However, Collette is using her sexuality as a bargaining chip to secure, nay, demand commitment. On HER terms, I might add. There’s only a manipulation if the guy allows it. Collete’s guy didn’t. Good for him.

    “So that a women who wants to wait is doing it to get as much as she can out of the guy by flaunting her feelingless privates that’s her assumed motivation. Right or wrong here?”

    – I’d say that’s YOUR characterization of the situation. A wrong one, I might add. Whether or not women in general have feelings in this context is irrelevant, particularly when one bargains their sexuality like it’s on ebay. She (and others who do) do it to get something, though. Whether it is commitment, fealty, or a new Louis Vuitton bag, for example. In this case, it’s the 1st 2 things, methinks. Once a barter is in the offing, it must be analyzed remorselessly & vigorously, without the cloud of ‘feelings’ impairing vision.

    As for the Cinn-JuJu exchange, which I find fascinating… I think it’s another case of utopia v. fugly realities. Funny, b/c I agree with both of ‘em.

  2. 62
    cinnamon

    vino,
    As I see it, there is absolutely nothing in Colette’s post that would indicate that she is using sex to bargain for anything.
    She seems like a grown up, emotionally healthy woman who sees sex as a part of a monogamous relationship and not a Friday night fun activity. The guy probably had a different outlook on life and it’s better for her that he left now then later.
    Colette had the guts to say that she was attracted to him and how see saw sex, the only thing the guy did was to shut the door and leave without any explanation.
    And while you apparently think that his commitment is something so precious that she might even think of bargaining about it, I say a commitment from a guy who shuts the door and leaves each time she doesn’t act the way he expected would soon turn into a life-time sentence.
    Utopia? Maybe. For me a guy who doesn’t care for how I feel and has a “I get what I want, when I want and how I want” attitiude towards sex (or anything else, for that matter) is someone to be avoided.

  3. 63
    downtowngal

    Mo’ (#57), interesting insight. If this guy was acting/thinking according to one of your examples, it only demonstrates that he’s not ready for the same level of commitment as Colette and it’s just as well the he didn’t call.

    It also demonstrates that sometimes we attract who we THINK we see. If a guy thinks that ‘all women are golddiggers’, based on one or two bad experiences, well, guess what? he’ll view all women that way and treat them accordingly, with a sense of distrust.

    You can say the same thing for women who say ‘all guys are jerks’.

    I’m getting off topic here, but the bottom line is that if you’re looking for something in a relationship, set boundaries for yourself and don’t settle. And live in the moment, don’t assume that the next one is going to act like the last one.

  4. 64
    Jojo

    I agree with Schlockdoc! If Colette was not ready to have sex, she should have said that to him before going to his apartment!

    1. 64.1
      Nissa

      Wow, I missed that bit. His reaction makes more sense in that light – her actions up until the conversation were a green light that suddenly went red. People of both genders react more positively to consistency.

  5. 65
    cinnamon

    Jojo,
    And maybe she did tell him she wasn’t ready to have sex, but he still wanted to go to her appartment and said he would not insist, so she made him a bed on the sofa in order not to make him think she was a tease, but he didn’t call anyway? Who knows?
    This happens, too. To plenty of women.
    Bottom line is he didn’t call.

  6. 66
    Jojo

    Cinnamon- I’m not justifying what he did! From my previous comments you will see that it seems clear what his intentions were. All ‘m saying is before sleeping in a guys house, you should make it clear what you will and will not do. If the guy agrees, then that’s really on him. Colette says she went back to his place and then tells him and so they just cuddled. Again, I don’t agree with his actions; I’m simply advising women to make there boundaries clear before sleeping at some guys house!

  7. 67
    Lance

    Wow, Evan, that’s some sharp stuff there.

    I read about half the comments and scanned the rest, but I think there’s a huge component everyone has missed. Sex is PART of the relationship…a person’s sexual values are of tremendous importance to the overall relationship. Does the person like it fast or slow? Does the person like oral or hate it? How often and how much sexual energy does she bring to the table? An extension of those sexual values is the amount of affection the partner can give (and receive) and yes, how does that person make me feel, which Evan and others talked about. Does she make me feel sexy and desired, or unattractive and dull?

    I could never commit to a relationship without FIRST having sex with the girl, because that’s the only way you’ll truly know what her values are. I think it’s absurd to even consider committing without first going on the test drive. Only after a night of hot (or not) sex would I truly know that we’re good LTR partners.

    The guy did the right thing by removing himself from the picture, but he douched it up by not explaining to her why.

    If I had to give advice to Colette, it would be that she needs to at least go to third base, consider having sex BEFORE pressuring the guy to commit, and communicate her values from the get-go.

  8. 68
    cinnamon

    Lance,
    Lucky you. I suspect the girls you’re getting have been test driven by many potential users, so you must be getting them as demos at considerable discount ;-)

  9. 69
    Honey

    Cinnamon, what does it matter how many people someone has slept with? It seems like searching for a LTR is about finding someone with similar values–you don’t have to judge the other person’s values, only determine whether they’re compatible with yours.

    The BF and I had determined that we would be monogamous while sleeping together (largely for safety reasons), but we didn’t consider ourselves an official couple for three or four months, despite sleeping together on the first date. I think that type of arrangement is workable from a safety perspective (and values perspective) without anyone having to sign in blood before they know if they’re physically/sexually compatible.

    I don’t know if that’s what Lance meant, or if it’s what Collette meant, either. It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of “committment” she was asking him for–she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a “temporary halt” while they figured out what was going on with them.

  10. 70
    Tyler

    I find this post interesting and I have a number of questions that I would love for anyone to answer.

    1. Why was the guy considered a jerk because he wouldn’t commit to her? He wasn’t mean; he didn’t try to change her mind; he didn’t kick her out. She asked for what she wanted and he let her know that he wasn’t willing to give her that. Why in the world does that make him a jerk or an assclown? In my mind, neither one of them did anything wrong.

    2. Why didn’t she call him? At what point in dating can a woman initiate a phone call? It seems to me that if they spent all that time together, she could have called him — not to talk about the “relationship,]” per se, but just to say hi or I had fun last night. Perhaps he thought that because he wouldn’t commit on the spot that SHE was no longer interested in him.

    It has been my experience that in the dating world, misunderstandings and misinterpretations run rampant. Some behavior has one obvious interpretation, but others don’t. Yet for some reason, we always want to go with the worst explanation….the one that makes the guy a jerk or the woman a bitch.

    Some people on this site have said that people can have different views and values, and while people do indeed have different views and values, I get a strong impressions that most people here think there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything — their way of course is usually right or better or more noble. Other views are not respected and barely tolerated. For example, there is a very strong bias that sex is really only right in the context of a caring relationship, but sex just for the fun of it is somehow wrong or bad or at the very least less noble. Isn’t that why men who only want sex seem to be so hated? If the guy is upfront about his intensions (and many are), why is that bad?

    Finally, I know most people aren’t going to agree with me, but given how many people — both men and women– cheat — I just have to wonder if people really want to be monogamous. Is monogamy a social construct that still serves us as a society? I think as internet dating become more popular, there are going to be fewer and fewer people willing to settle for just one person.

  11. 71
    cinnamon

    Honey,
    “It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of committment she was asking him for she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a temporary halt while they figured out what was going on with them”.

    That’s a question which I meant to raise at some point in this discussion and forgot.
    Personally, I cannot imagine any other type of “commitment” on the 4th date then a “temporary halt” and do not interpret Colette’s request as anything else than asking for being monogamous while they were sleeping together. I do not see any other options exactly for safety reasons.

    Personally, I have never seen myself in a “no sex before marriage” arrangement, though I have respect for people who do. What astonishes me is men who seem to make a “fast forward” in their minds and then somehow project this on the women they meet. I’m not saying this is the case with respect to Colette’s guy, but I have myself stumbled on such phenomenon at least once.

  12. 72
    Lance

    @Cinnamon: I have no problem with highly experienced women, and in fact I prefer it. These women are usually very in touch with their sexual side and compatible with my values. Sluts? I love’em!!

    @Tyler: You’ve got some great points in there. To point #1, the guy was pretty cool the whole time…his only possible mistake was not taking the time/energy to TELL her he wasn’t interested. Instead, he flaked, which is a douchey move, but a fairly mild mistake in my book.

    Another good point you made, why didn’t she just contact him and ask what was the matter? I didn’t see any where in her message that she put forth effort to maintain the connection or find out if something was wrong. At least part of that is her responsibility.

    Anyway, Evan gave great advice on this one. I wish women would stop waiting for a guy to commit to a relationship before giving him the “gift” of her sex, it’s totally ridiculous.

  13. 73
    hunter

    on post #68

    A demo at a considerable discount? Every mans fantasy!….Where are they?……LOL!………

  14. 74
    downtowngal

    Tyler we don’t even know if he was willing to commit to her. Or if he’s a jerk. Based on what Collette is saying, it sounded as if she was up front, but he didn’t let her know, instead he sent her mix signals. So based on this, many on this board – men & women alike – determined that it sounds as if he was only interested in having sex.

    And it’s not cool her to follow up with him, especially in this instance. What good would it do? Collette would only be blown off again.If the guy really wanted to contact her he already would have.

  15. 75
    Tyler

    Downtowngal,

    I guess I don’t see that he sent mixed signals — she asked him to committ and she said he didn’t say anything. In my mind, that means no or at least not yet. There were a number of people who did say he was a jerk because all he wanted was sex. And my question is even if all a man wants is sex, if he is honest about it, why is he a jerk or an asshole.

    I wasn’t suggesting that she follow up with him 4 weeks later or now. I was asking after one or two days went by, why couldn’t she call him and say hi? As I said, perhaps he needed some reassurance that she was still interested even if he wasn’t ready to commit. I am only throwing that out because I think women (myself included) tend to forget that men actually can feel vulnerable and unsure. I met a guy on the internet and we had nice conversations. But something happened and we never went out. Long story short, I was adhering to the ‘if he is really interested, he will do all the work’ tenet of dating. In a very candid conversation, he told me that he was just tired of chasing women only to be rebuffed or worse. Just once, he wished a woman would really show him the SHE like him. I’m sure some women will think he just needed to man up and he’s probably not alpha enough for most women here. But for me, that was the first time I really understood that this dating thing is hard on guys too. So, all I am saying is that maybe, just maybe, SHE needed to reach out to him first and let him know that she still liked him. Of course, everyone wants to avoid reaching out because we don’t want to give up our “power.” What power are we giving up exactly? The power to be human and vulnerable and real? Perhaps we need to be more courageous and be willing to say even though I’m not sure how you feel about me, I like you. If you don’t feel the same way, no hard feelings. I’ll just move on. Instead, we always want the other person to admit they like us first — so that we have more power. Well, I bet that there are a lot of really powerful people who are alone.

  16. 76
    Cute Redhead

    Vino, post #61. I didn’t say that’s what I believed, I said that was the impression I got from reading this board. Why doesn’t anyone read my posts correctly? Am I not being clear?

    Lance, #67. Why is your impression that she was pressuring him to commit? There wasn’t any pressure there. See Cinnamon, #62 and Tyler, #70.

    Tyler, #70. I question your assumption that in the past people just settled for one person and that monogamy was the norm. It does seem to be the case that in days of yore, before women had alternatives to marriage, that only men were able to get away with it without punishment, and the wives just had to suck it up. So I’m not sure that monogamy has ever really been the norm for all of the population; maybe just for the female half for whom divorce would have been a terrifying reality. Now we’re all just more honest about sexuality and divorce is easier and women don’t bear all of the burden for men’s lustful actions (because of the Pill and DNA testing), and we women don’t have to get married and thank god for that. We even get to pursue our own lustful actions. And men get to be as promiscuous as they want without criticism or social consequence, and the internet, bless it, is a handy way to hook up (or just a good place to see naked ladies do different things, which used to be much harder and more expensive to watch).

  17. 77
    the last word

    “I wish women would stop waiting for a guy to commit to a relationship before giving him the gift of her sex, it’s totally ridiculous.”

    Of course, never mind what she wants.

    I wish guys would stop expecting women to accept dates with them to see if they’re actually interested. and I wish guys would stop thinking they had to call a woman after she gives him the ‘gift’ of sex. I mean, how gauche. After all, what’s the point of dating if we don’t have sex?

  18. 78
    Cute Redhead

    Oops — the “it” in “get away with it” above is cheating.

    (And I’m sure that Vino is going to come up with some argumentative response about how women were victimizing men back in the days of yore, when women were stoned for having extramarital sex or raped for their brother’s crime against another tribe or — oh, wait. That’s still going on today…)

  19. 79
    Tyler

    Cute Redhead,

    You are could be right that monogamy wasn’t in fact the norm in the past. However, it was held up as the ideal — even if men chose not to live that way. I’m just wondering in this day and age should it even be an ideal if that’s not really what a lot of people want or what they do.

    You wrote something interesting. We may be more honest about our sexuality, but we still have some very puritan beliefs — women who have sex with lots of guys are still labeled sluts or if women have sex with a guy on the first date, he thinks she is easy and therefore not serious material. I would prefer more than just honesty, I would prefer an acceptance of different sexual values between consenting adults– none better than the other, just different.

  20. 80
    hunter

    on post #70

    We are powerful people. So powerful, that we out power ourselves!!!!!………

  21. 81
    hunter

    to Cute red head,

    …I read all your posts correctly….

  22. 82
    Colette

    Wow, it’s cathartic to see so many people talk about my anonymous little story though I could probably do without reading a few of these.

    This happened a few months ago, and at some point soon afterward I concluded that most likely he was seeing other people, or at least was holding out hope that he could, and that’s as good as saying that he wasn’t into me enough. I have moved on.

    To reiterate: I didn’t ask him for a commitment. I just didn’t want to sleep around. I didn’t even say we couldn’t see each other any more, and I definitely did not say no to any physical activity at all (sorry Evan, but this is one where you missed the mark). I like to think that he simply decided hey, I’m considering being with another girl, she’s not cool with that, so I’ll just be a semi-decent dude and let her go find someone else. Notice that I never called him a jerk or a d-bag. He may have fallen a little short in the communication arena, but no shocker there: he’s a single 35-year old.

    There was probably no need for me to call him, either. I’m going to take a leap here and give him enough credit to have realized that I had put my feelings on the line, and he didn’t reciprocate. Guys, when was the last time a girl said to you, I might have feelings for you, and then you went home to sit twiddling your thumbs impatiently by the phone for her to call you again? He was verrry good at picking up the phone and asking me out. This guy wanted a casual relationship. Whatever that means I didn’t. Next.

    My real question to Evan was whether the idea of no sex outside of a committed relationship is going to hurt my chances of finding someone I like. I can see how it might, given the hostile attitude that a lot of guys seem to have about spending a lot of time with a girl they like (aka, commitment). Not all guys feel that way, but I would like to see more women have enough self-respect to ask honest questions and demand honest behavior, and more men use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be serious. I think I did get that respect in this situation, thanks to the fact that I asked for it.

  23. 83
    hunter

    to the last word,

    Women are different, they are just different, it takes time for a woman to warm up to a man.

  24. 84
    the last word

    agreed, hunter. i was being sarcastic.

  25. 85
    A-L

    Thanks, Colette, for piping in and letting us know what happened.

    I find it interesting that a lot of the guys who are promoting sex before commitment on this board are praising Evan’s post and his advice, when his advice to women (both sexes, actually, I believe) is to wait on having sex until a commitment exists between the couple in question.

    I’d also like clarification on one point. Vino and some others feel that Colette was using sex as a bargaining tool (ie, I won’t have sex unless you commit to me). Does the same hold true for the abstinence folk (ie, I won’t have sex unless you marry me)? I don’t think that Colette was trying to bargain with her sexuality, but others did. Just trying to see the other folks’ side on this.

  26. 86
    Cute Redhead

    Great follow-up, Collette! Like I said in my first post on this thread, I think you’ve got it all together.

    In some ways, maybe it’s just a numbers thing. A lot of people date around with several people before they pick just one person to settle down with. That means that at any given point in time you have a lot of people who aren’t ready to marry/commit/be exclusive who are out there dating around in a multiple way. Once they choose they are out of the dating pool. This might make it seem like most guys (since we’re women dating guys) are only into nsa sex or don’t want to commit, b/c that’s where most dating guys are in their life.

    I don’t know how you separate out the “just dating around” guys from the “seriously looking” guys. Certain sites are more geared toward relationship (eHarmony) and less toward hooking up. And certain environments (bars) are more geared toward hooking up and less toward relationship.

    I think your approach is a good one, though. If you take nsa sex off the table you weed out the “just dating around” guys right away. A guy who is seriously looking will respect that if he is seriously considering you b/c what guy is looking to be exclusive with a woman who is sleeping around? Just like you aren’t looking to partner up with a guy who is/seems to be sleeping around.

    It does amuse me, though, that the same people who sleep around while they’re dating complain that they can’t find anyone “good enough” to marry, that all that’s out there are dinner whores and guys who are into nsa sex. We reap what we sow. :)

  27. 87
    vino

    Re: Cute Redhead’s #76 –

    “Vino, post #61. I didn’t say that’s what I believed, I said that was the impression I got from reading this board. Why doesn’t anyone read my posts correctly? Am I not being clear?”

    – Are we reading the same words? Where did I say that’s what YOU believed? I didn’t.

    Re: Cute Redhead’s #78 –

    “(And I’m sure that Vino is going . . . .another tribe or oh, wait. That’s still going on today)”

    – I read CR’s posts re: me and am thoroughly convinced that there is a dogged intention to disagree and grossly misstate what’s been previously stated. *sigh*

    Tyler’s #70 was quite good, with many good points.

    I’d have to point out to others that when someone says ‘if you give me commitment, I may give you sex’ it is the very definition of a bartering transaction. It’s no different from an attorney who reviews some loan documents for a mechanic who, in return will fix attorney’s brakes. I’m simply calling it for what it is. That many posters dislike this accurate characterization is telling.

    My points are a bit different. I think Collette’s absolutely entitled to her approach and opinion. Such approaches and opinions are not the only right ones, though. Look at the characterizations/demonizations that are posted regarding men who disagree with the “my way or highway” approach:

    “For me a guy who doesn’t care for how I feel and has a I get what I want, when I want and how I want attitiude towards sex (or anything else, for that matter) is someone to be avoided.”

    “A man like that showed that he was looking for – sex – so he wasn’t really looking for her best interests but his own pleasure.”
    – calling him selfish

    I think others simply called him a cad or jerk (haven’t gone through all posts).

    I’d also like to point out that Collette’s #82 says volumes..

    Paragraph 2 “Notice that I never called him a jerk or a d-bag. He may have fallen a little short in the communication arena, but no shocker there: he’s a single 35-year old.”
    – Notice she points to the fact she never called him a name, then disparages him.

    Paragraph 3 “He was verrry good at picking up the phone and asking me out. This guy wanted a casual relationship. Whatever that means I didn’t. Next.”
    – Conclusory. As another poster pointed out, she could have taken the initiative to call HIM (perish the thought). She didn’t, arriving at this conclusion. Perhaps an equally correct conclusion is he didn’t want a relationship with someone who only want her way (no commitment, no sex; I won’t call him).

    Paragraph 4 “Not all guys feel that way, but I would like to see more women have enough self-respect to ask honest questions and demand honest behavior, and more men use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be serious.”
    – So guys who don’t toe her line are dishonest AND stupid? Please. I’m guessing this thought process drove him away more than anything else.

    I come back to the point that it’s just as easy to call a woman a control freak, domineering bitch or other similar term for demanding commitment before sex, as it is to call a guy a jerk, cad or selfish twit because they won’t do things how YOU want. I simply don’t see that it solves anything.

    Tyler may have said it best. “I would prefer more than just honesty, I would prefer an acceptance of different sexual values between consenting adults none better than the other, just different.”

    Not a whole lot of acceptance on this board…

  28. 88
    Lance

    Thanks to Colette for the enlightening reply, which should help to refocus the dialogue. Since her real question is whether holding off on sex until commitment will reduce her chances of finding someone she likes, the answer is yes, and EMK answered it well. Any time you have any kind of standard, you’re weeding out some folks, a lot of whom might be jackasses but also possibly a few gems. That’s the risk you take. It’s probably a worthy risk.

    Personally, I’ll take that risk, because my relationship values are important, my values just happen to be different from Colette’s and most of the readership. I prefer fast women because their values are inline with my own. If Colette is attractive, which she says she is, she shouldn’t have a problem finding a guy with similar values as long as she puts in the work.

  29. 89
    mic

    “Collette is using her sexuality as a bargaining chip to secure, nay, demand commitment.”

    It does seem that way, yes. Since she has been following the discussion, maybe she will elaborate. If it’s true, then part of the solution might be to not advertise as “hot,” to still look good, but not in a way that says “Imagine what sex with me would be like.”

  30. 90
    Tyler

    This post keeps getting more and more interesting.

    A-L, I guess it all depends on what your definition of bargaining is. I don’t think it’s wrong for a woman to have terms of engagement for sex, i.e. I won’t have sex unless you commit. At the same time, it’s not wrong if a man says — hmm — I don’t like your terms, so no thanks. Women feel as if guys are bad for saying no. The way I see it is that women who don’t put some kind of condition on sex — ie. you must like me, you must commit to me, you must marry me, etc. — are often labeled sluts or told they have low self-esteem — why else would they have sex without getting something that other women value (ie commit, love, etc.) in return. For women, the pleasure of sex doesn’t seem to be enough.

    Colette, I’m glad you are back. I have a question for you. As I read your question to Evan, I couldn’t really understand the significance of pointing out the you are “hot.” I could only come up with two reasons for why that would be relevant. Since you are hot, men should do what you want them to do. Or since you are hot, a man can’t possibly control himself from wanting to have sex with you. So, while less attractive women can hold a guy off, a hot woman can’t. I don’t know if those were your reasons but I just couldn’t think of why your appearance mattered in this instance. Any man who goes out with a woman four times finds her attractive even if the woman may not be in your league. So, can you clarify why your “hotness” is an issue, please.

    In your follow up response you wrote something that made me feel perhaps your problem has been how you come across to men. You wrote ” women should have enough self respect to ask questions and demand honest behavior and more men should use their real brains to be respectful if they sense a girl is looking to be more serious.” Perhaps you are coming across as too demanding — wanting to have all your needs met without really considering the guy. Many men — especially hot ones — feel demanding women just aren’t worth the effort and will bail. Finally, women have to take care of themselves and their hearts. To have the expectation that a man that you’ve only known a short time — or even a long time — is responsible for you is just setting yourself up for a lot of heartache. As a woman, if you sense that you want more than he does, YOU have to back off. All too often women want to play the victim of a man’s “bad” behavior when in reality in almost every instance, they themselves are responsible for letting a man treat them in a way they find unacceptable. You can ask — not demand — that a man treat you the way you like, if he doesn’t , move on. End of story.

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