Dating And Divorce: Is It ‘Survival Of The Sluttiest’?

Dating And Divorce: Is It 'Survival Of The Sluttiest'?

In a Huffington Post article, New York comedian Juliet Jeske lamented that after the end of a nine-year relationship, she no longer knows how to date. She describes her experiences this way:

“As a person who is by nature very direct and to the point, dating is a mystery trapped in a puzzle, tucked in a fireproof safe thrown down a mineshaft. I just can’t figure it out.”

She goes on to say that “It is just sort of expected by many that you start the physical part of the relationship first, and then see if either partner wants to continue after the fact, sort of a try before you buy situation. Sex before emotional attachment, sex before any form of relationship, sex before everything.”

Jeske is complaining specifically about dating in New York, but I think this phenomenon is universal. I mean, how many times have I said that “men look for sex and find love and women look for love and find sex”? What Jeske doesn’t seem to get is that it’s not an either/or.

You don’t have to sleep with a guy on Date 2 just because some other woman will. That other woman is most likely being used and is wondering why all the guys she sleeps with never amount to anything.

What women DO need to understand is that men are driven by attraction, sex and testosterone. And if you think it’s ridiculous that he’s going to want to have a little foreplay before you’re in a relationship, you’re going to be perpetually frustrated by reality.

Instead of complaining that men are interested in sex (duh), how about you figure out a way to better connect with him outside the bedroom during those first few formative weeks/months? And if all he wants is sex, just ditch him. It ain’t that hard.

Read the article here and let me know your thoughts in the comments below.

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Comments:

  1. 301
    Katarina Phang

    A man would know if he has chemistry with -attracted physically- a woman in 4 secs. And it’s unlikely that will change.  If a man doesn’t feel it in his gut within 4 secs, it means he’s not than into her.  It doesn’t mean he likes her as a person or knows that he’s the one, but if he doesn’t feel a strong (physical) attraction within 4 secs, it’s very unlikely he will pursue her.  Maybe he will see her once or twice and as soon as he gets the sex he stops pursuing her.

    That is what being into someone is all about.   A guy needs to want a strong urge to have sex with a woman to want to marry her.  The two can’t be separated, kids. It doesn’t mean he would, but that’s a prerequisite.  He won’t pursue those he feel lukewarm about physically LET ALONE marrying her.  And attraction doesn’t mean she has to be a super model.  It’s all unconscious.  It’s physical but not all physical.  

    Men have their own types.  I’m the type for certain guys and when they feel strong attraction, they will pursue me no matter when we have sex. So women just have to fertilize the ground so they meet men who find them their types (hopefully the feeling is mutual).

    And let me fix you, know-it-all smug, no usually high libido partners don’t just divorce low-libido partners.  If you know at all the dynamics within marriage, the resentment brewed over the years and leaked into other aspects of relationship.  So by the time they divorce (whoever files for it), the relationship has long been broken and issues have been piling up unresolved.  The sexlessness creates a vicious cycle.  Connection is lost and the more it’s lost, sex is more and more impossible.  You won’t understand any of this because you just assume you know relationship/marriage when you have never been in one yourself.

    Again, I’m repulsed by the lack of humility and compassion. :(

  2. 302
    justme

    At Stephen

    Men and women dont’ ALWAYS view sex differently.   As someone who grew up with the same ideals about sex that you voice and as someone who has taught my kids the same – if I were a young woman who fit your qualifications exactly, I wouldn’t care about how many women you had sex with.  I would care about how you viewed sex and how you viewed women.  I would care more your attitude.  Your intolerance of others, your lack of allowing for other points of view, your hypocrasy, that those things would have me RUNNING FOR THE HILLS.   These traits are a much better predictor of long term potential than sexual history.  You better look for a stupid virgin.      

     

  3. 303
    Katarina Phang

    I would care about how you viewed sex and how you viewed women.  I would care more your attitude.  Your intolerance of others, your lack of allowing for other points of view, your hypocrasy, that those things would have me RUNNING FOR THE HILLS.  These traits are a much better predictor of long term potential than sexual history.  You better look for a stupid virgin.      

    Justme, you nailed it!

    To add, sex is an expression of love and intimacy without which there is no much point of being in a relationship.  It carries so much more weight than just physical gratification in relationship. It amuses me when kids who are still wet behind the ears come and preach to us of what constitutes good marriage and so arrogant and intolerant of other views that are obviously more seasoned/tested than theirs.

    The more a person knows, the more he knows how much he doesn’t know.  The ignorant thinks he knows best.

  4. 304
    Greg

    I love how you call us know-it-alls then you come one here and tell us how men feel.  How can you do that when you’re not a man?  Or have you been a man before and just aren’t telling us?  I know more about being a man than you do. So maybe you should sit down.
    And I have a very high libido.  But if I couldn’t have sex everyday I would find other ways to make myself happy.  And at the very least I would discuss the problem and how to make things work.  I don’t expect my partner to please me and cater to my needs all the time.  I have self-control.  I wouldn’t expect my wife to have sex on whenever I needed it.  Would it be OK for me to divorce her if she didn’t provide sex on demand?   Would it be OK for me to sleep with other women on nights she didn’t want to have sex? You may be a generous person, but you come off sounding very selfish.  And if you married a selfish man who doesn’t care about your needs then that’s a problem.  Selfishness leads to inevitable failure in relationships.  

  5. 305
    Katarina Phang

    Greg, again you and your foolish assumptions!!!  You don’t ask, you just assume.  And you keep coming back looking more and more ludicrous with your arrogance.

    I at least have been married and have been in the position to tell you how men respond to me.  NOTHING at all like you claim here.  And you don’t know how other men think anymore than I do.  Karl, Nathan and Lance disagree with you!!  Three of them versus two of you.  It’s just men here, not to mention outside the board.

    Men in their 40’s and 50’s have different priorities to men in in their 20’s.  They could care less about how women live their sexual lives, if anything they kinda expect us to be experienced and they want us to be experienced so they dn’t have to teach us new skills. So what you and your prep-school friends think of women are pretty irrelevant because we here don’t date prep-school students.  You are barking at the wrong tree, son.  Tell your prep-school female friends about how prep-school boys think about female sexuality, they might listen to you. :)  Not us, sorry.  

    And are you telling us that number one divorce reasons: sex and money can only mean these people are selfish assholes, huh?

    Again, the clueless.  Sex is very important in marriage and when one partner is being denied over and over, it does damage to his/her self-esteem, and in time the relationship.  He/she will feel humiliated, rejected, unloved, unwanted, undesired.   

    Easy for you to say all the ridiculously idealistic advice from a vantage point of someone who’s just repeating “the 101 of great marriage” without experiencing it first hand.

    Like Helen said, it’s okay to be clueless but to be intolerant, judgmental and arrogant is insufferable.

  6. 306
    Greg

    I love how you get so angry, and continue to put words into my mouth.  I never said sex isn’t important.  I just said that its not the most important thing.  And I can repeat “101 of great marriage” if I want to.  I happen to believe in following fundamental principles, whether its playing football or marriage.  I didn’t accuse anyone of being selfish.  I said that you could be very generous, but that you sound selfish.  We are all selfish to a degree and its something we have to work at.  Selfishness is defined as caring primarily for ones own needs.  Selfishness will cause a relationship to fail.  I don’t need to be married to know that much.  While experience is the best teacher, you can avoid pitfalls and get things right the first time by learning from others.  Imagine if man had to fail a few times at reaching the moon?  Do you think that would have been acceptable?  No. Its something you have to get right the first time, and its possible to do so without prior experience.  

  7. 307
    Helen

    Greg, I say this without any rancor:
     
    If you seriously believe that being married to someone else is something that can be precisely calculated for success, like the proper trajectory to land on the moon, then you genuinely have no clue.

  8. 308
    Goldie

    Sigh. This was such a useful thread to me until the boyz turned it into a screaming match. I was actually getting excellent advice from Katarina, that I actually needed, after a horrible dating experience I’d had this summer that left me depressed for a month. Guys (Greg in particular), I don’t understand. The post is called Dating and Divorce. Which part of that sounded like a good start to a lecture on how to get married young and stay married for life? I’m pretty sure there are many other threads on this very blog that would have been more appropriate for that purpose. There was one about a 21yo getting married, for instance. 
     
    Imagine if man had to fail a few times at reaching the moon?  Do you think that would have been acceptable?  No.
     
    Why??? Why??? I don’t understand. Why would it be unacceptable?

  9. 309
    Katarina Phang

    I’m curious now that the boys not only view female sexuality in such a grim misogynistic fashion, but they also frown upon people going through several relationships in a lifetime as if it was such a shameful thing by labeling them “lacking in judgment” or other very derogatory and judgmental terms.

    Goldie, I have enjoyed your posts too and how “motherly” you are to our resident cubs here. :)

    So now marriage is akin to going to the moon and shouldn’t fail the first time according to one of our cub experts.  Perhaps he meant skydiving rather than going to the moon.  Because if you don’t succeed the first time, skydiving is definitely not for you.
     
    LOL… 

  10. 310
    Jadafisk

    … as an aside, Greg, it was entirely acceptable for man to fail a few times before putting a man on the moon. Otherwise, the space program would’ve ended with Apollo 1. *headdesk*

  11. 311
    Greg

    For many women on here good advice=being told what what I want to hear.   I actually can’t believe some of the things supposedly older mature women can’t understand.  Why are there questions from women in there 40’s wondering whether or not they should dump a cheater.  Women in their 50’s still being used for sex. I thought experience should give you the obvious answer. Wisdom does not always come with age.

  12. 312
    Katarina Phang

    Oh dear….  Honey, women in their 50’s probably want sex more -MUCH more- than guys in their 30’s.

    You have no clue.  And you are still as arrogant as hell… 

  13. 313
    Greg

    Apollo 1 was not supposed to go to the moon genius.

  14. 314
    Saint Stephen

    @Jadafisk
    A virgin will get dumped by a man whose primary motive is sex, and that’s a good way to weed out all the sleazebags who comes to toy with a woman’s emotion. In my opinion such men are fools, if after test driving other women for sexual compatibility, they still wind up falling sexually incompatible in the middle of relationships or marriage. 

    @Justme 
    The virgin you call stupid i consider her much wiser for been able to swim against the tide and for having a better grasp as per male/female dynamics. you think men and women don’t view sex differently? will you be happy to have sex with 10 different men per day? because i’ll be very much happy to have sex with 10 different women per day.

    @Katarina phang
    If you equate marriage to invention, then i’ll consider myself and anyone else who consecutively fails in trying to invent what the likes of Thomas Edison, Wright brothers and other famous inventors had already invented. is totally funny to me how you were quick to point out Karl and Nathan who didn’t support our views, while you completely left out the women your age on this particular thread who confessed to been victims of such act. To me you are just scratching around for any little pin around you can pick which strengthens your views.     

  15. 315
    Helen

    Greg, at this point you are resorting to potshots in your willful ignorance.
     
    Son, do you think there is a natural age after which – voila – you suddenly have no questions about anything, you suddenly have all the wisdom in the world, you suddenly know the exact right thing to do in every circumstance?  Since you seem not to know the answer, let me spell it out for you.  NO.  Such an age does not exist.  Even the oldest of old people make mistakes and question their judgment.  To assume they know the right answer to everything would be foolish even if they were 100, let alone 27.
     
    A clear sign that a male lacks gentlemanliness is how he treats women older than himself.  I think we can all see by your behavior which direction you are headed.

    1. 315.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Enough, kids. I’m shutting down this thread unless both sides can stop with the insults.

  16. 316
    Saint Stephen

    I now believe many women have this illusion that marriage is bound to remain with all the sparks and fireworks it had in the early phase. Most women can’t comprehend the fact that a relationship dynamics changes after much years of marriage from that of a boyfriend and girlfriend into that of brother and sister, and by then sex doesn’t factor much in the relationship, rather it becomes more of sharing and communication. That’s why the most successful relationships are often those which started with just little chemistry. There is even a post in this blog which discusses that. i can’t fathom how one’s desirability hinges mostly on sex. i’m bound to feel more desired by a girl who likes talking and indulging with other activities with me than a girl who likes having sex with me. Well… to me sex is just 10% of a relationship, and that’s why if i find a girl i click in every other aspect- sex certainly wont be a deal breaker. While is true lack of sex can build up resentment over time, but that’s only if a person allows it. This is a problem of women who feel they are attractive but yet always seeking constant validation from others. 

    Like someone said earlier- wisdom doesn’t always come with age. Forgive me if i can’t see what the wisdom of king Solomon had to do with the old age of Methuselah. 

  17. 317
    Goldie

    Yah well sex may well be 10% of a marriage, but to me it seems pretty heartless to deny it to your spouse, knowing full well they cannot get it anywhere else without cheating. We didn’t have this problem, but I’ve talked to people that did. In a good marriage, the person that’s lost the libido still tries to satisfy their spouse as best they can under the circumstances (I remember talking to a man many years ago, who lost his as side effect of prescription meds, but still tried his best to help his wife out.) There are ways.
     
    “Most women can’t comprehend the fact that a relationship dynamics changes after much years of marriage from that of a boyfriend and girlfriend into that of brother and sister”
     
    Seems to me that it’s most 20-somethings that cannot comprehend that people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and (gasp) 70s and up are not content living “like brother and sister”. I know, right now to you we must seem like the walking dead, but I guarantee we’re pretty young at heart.
     
     

  18. 318
    Greg

    Sorry for the insults.  

    Think of Apollo missions before Apollo 11 as dating.  These mission tested various parts of the rocket and lunar module that would eventually land on the moon.  If something went wrong during those missions it was forgivable, because the point of those missions was to learn what works and what doesn’t.  You had to learn from those missions, because failure when the stakes was highest and the whole world was watching was unacceptable.  Similarly dating is where we can make mistakes and learn, so that when we make a serious commitment high stakes commitment like marriage we will be successful.  That’s why during dating you try to screen out selfish people who want to only use you for sex, learn from other experienced people and also work on improving your own relationship skills.  Maybe I need to work on sounding less arrogant.  Either way if you don’t learn or make changes, you don’t become wise and you repeat the same mistakes.

  19. 319
    Diana

    Greg, while it is true that dating provides an excellent way to weed out the incompatible, and serves as a valuable method for learning and growing toward a healthy and long lasting relationship, should you marry in the future, you will learn and experience things you haven’t even begun to comprehend. Not only will you learn, but you will be challenged. You will become a changed person from the one you were when you were dating, and your relationship will be tested. Not necessarily in the way you may be thinking. This isn’t intended to imply that your marriage wouldn’t survive or thrive. It’s intended to just share that sometimes when we think we have all of the answers that we need, or we are convinced we know what the road is like that lies before us, life has a way of sometimes proving us wrong, even when we don’t want to admit it.
     
    So keep an open mind and an open heart. It will attract the most butterflies, too. :) And see where life takes you. It’s when we go into something with an ego-driven invincibility that we sometimes get stuck in our own mud.
     

  20. 320
    Saint Stephen

    Katarina phang Said: (#314)
    A man would know if he has chemistry with -attracted physically- a woman in 4 secs. And it’s unlikely that will change.
    Are you sure? I have met some ladies i felt instant intense chemistry and physically attracted to, only to discover after a week that i didn’t want to see them anymore. I’m a man, so you have to believe me when i say that whatever a man feels in 4 seconds is pure Lust. Men don’t require chemistry to have sex with a woman.
    I’ll only know i’m into a lady if i’m still happy to see her after 6 months. 

  21. 321
    Saint Stephen

    @Goldie (#331)
    Don’t generalize, some folks are contented. Perhaps that’s the reason why they still stayed married. Though i know a lifetime marriage isn’t for everyone. 

  22. 322
    Katarina Phang

    Stephen, they may change their mind about not seeing her anymore but not the other way around.  He can’t be NOT attracted to her within 4 secs, and be attracted later on.  Rarely happens that way.

    I thought I made myself clear.  Sigh.   

  23. 323
    Katarina Phang

    And please of course, no need to split hair.  Yes they basically can screw anything that moves and they will do it just to have sex, but they know if they’re into a gal pretty early.  My point is if they’re into you it doesn’t matter when you have sex.  They will stop seeing you if sex is the only thing they want with you or they’re not too sure about you but not if they are really attracted to you and find you their type, i.e. everything about you works for them; i.e. you two are chemically aligned. 

    And trust me that sort attraction exist for both men and women. 

  24. 324
    Annie

    @336 Katarina

    Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Yes, a man can feel no attraction for a woman, and end up wildly passionately in love with her and desire her more than any other.

    Chemistry, is our evolutionary way of pro-creating. The rest of our grey matter, is what got us to the moon.

    I prefer the grey matter myself :) Chemistry is overrated.

    @Greg and St Stephen

    There is no shame in wanting a woman who holds herself back for a special experience. The issue is again, with the hypocracy. She must hold herself back, but you do not need to.

    If you think sex isn’t important then I think you really really miss the point of sex. It’s called making love. It’s an experience you can have, that is like no other. Where you desperately want to feel close to the other person, and love them with your body/mind/soul in a fully accepting way. It is not a mastubatory event, it makes you vulnerable.

    This is why I do not date men that shag around and hold double standards. They seem to think that sex is so “not important” and they treat it like a recreational activity and masturbate inside a womans body, then disrespect her for allowing it.They do not know how to seduce nor have they ever learned how to  feel emotionally and physically intimate during sex. They tend to look for a replacement mother in their wives, than an equal partner. Then they blame their wives disappointment on their less than satisfactory love-making and call her a  “slut” for wanting to feel loved physically.

    Like I said before. Your hypocracy makes you a bad bet in a marriage.

    Emotional and physical intimacy become combined in a marriage. If you will not end a marriage over a lack of physical intimacy, then you are not capable of intimacy in the first place imo. It is very important.

  25. 325
    Katarina Phang

    Annie, how often does that happen?  Say one in a million?  That’s a total abberation.

    The average guy would tell us he can’t be with a woman he feels little attraction for.  99.99999% of them will.

    The boys have to realize that sex is much more emotional than physical in relationship.  When it doesn’t work, the emotional component of what make relationship works is missing.  And it’s a huge chunk, that’s why it’s 90% (mind you this is the assertion of experts who have counseled thousands of couples).

    Their fear of sex for whatever reason (religious reason most likely) will really send most women with healthy sex appetite running to the hill. 

  26. 326
    Jadafisk

    Stephen @ 327
    http://www.salon.com/2006/09/06/virgins/

    Say what you will about those guys, but that’s the prevailing mentality in American men under 60. They won’t marry a woman that they haven’t had sex with, and if she hasn’t had sex with anyone else, they assume that she doesn’t like sex and that there will be problems for the same reasons of sexual compatibility espoused by Katarina Phang and other women here. The vast majority of American men want a woman who occupies a happy medium between chastity and promiscuity. Fortunately, it’s a midpoint that most American women embody.

  27. 327
    JustMe

    Stephen

    Men and women view sex differently.   And as such your behavior of having sex with women and then looking down on them is acceptable because you are a men, and its ok for men to do this.  It’s ok for you to expect a different, higher standard for others than you have for yourself.  Gotcha.  To each their own. . .

    On a different thought, you know what I think a lot of people don’t like?  The person out there advocating certain standards while living below that standard themselves.  I mean, it could be the parent who swears like a sailor but washes his/her kids mouth out with soap when they use the same language, or the public figure/politician/religious leader who talks about family values while cheating on their spouse, or the family therapist who counsels struggling families while he/she is abusive to his own family or the boss/company that expects the employees to have a higher standard than what they do.  Here is an example from my work; there are two managers, one tells his people that they have to be on time everyday while he himself is late every day.  the other one tells his people they have to be on time everyday – he himself is one time every day.  Both have employees who are on time but who do you think gets more respect, the man who leads by example or the man who says “do as I say, not as I do”? 

    No one likes to be judged but when you are being judged by someone who is looking down on you for behavior they do themselves, it just leaves an ICK, slimey feeling about that person. And it shows a lack of maturity by the person doing the judgement.  When I think of the public figures who make the news for their hyprocasy and the public sentiment that turns against them, I hardly think I am the only one doesn’t respect this type of person.  

    Honestly, when someone holds others to a higher standard than they have for themselves – well I just think “what a douchecanoe!”

  28. 328
    Annie

    @399

    Not an aberration at all I don’t think. It’s why you hear of people whove been friends for 7 years, give a relationship a go, and end up married. I’ve experienced it myself, with men about 5 times approximately in my life. And I know of plenty of men(some that have even posted on this blog) that have experienced the same thing.

    Immediate chemistry is seriously overrated.

    There was even a brilliant movie about this. yes I know movies are not real life but this one shows the dynamic I’m talking about. It’s called “The Painted Veil”. Beautiful movie.

    Both men and women would do well to ignore at the start whatever “feelings” they have and pay attention to character. You can grow to love character, and desire to feel very close to some-one, both emotionally and physically, without any initial attraction at all.

  29. 329
    Greg

    Katrina is 100% right that most men will not marry a woman they feel little attraction for.  But she is wrong in thinking that a man knows if he is into a woman within seconds.  All a man knows within 4 seconds is whether or not he would be willing to sleep with her. 

    And Annie, I already know that the emotional connection is a large part of sex.  That’s why I said earlier that bad sex is not the cause of marriage problems, but a symptom.  If you’re not communicating or connecting emotionally outside the bedroom, then you probably won’t connect too well emotionally inside the bedroom either.  I know for a fact that even if a girl is gorgeous, if I despise her than I won’t want to be in the same room with her much less be intimate with her. 

    And I’m not debating whether its right or wrong to judge a woman considered easy.  I’m just saying that many men do this.  I also know that many women expect me to pay for the first date, even if they make more money than me.  I do this without complaining even if it is just as hypocritical.  

  30. 330
    Katarina Phang

    Greg:  Read my previous posts again.  Let me quote what I said that you repeated above:

    If a man doesn’t feel it in his gut within 4 secs, it means he’s not than into her.  It doesn’t mean he likes her as a person or knows that he’s the one, but if he doesn’t feel a strong (physical) attraction within 4 secs, it’s very unlikely he will pursue her.  Maybe he will see her once or twice and as soon as he gets the sex he stops pursuing her.
    That is what being into someone is all about.   A guy needs to want a strong urge to have sex with a woman to want to marry her.  The two can’t be separated, kids. It doesn’t mean he would, but that’s a prerequisite.  He won’t pursue those he feel lukewarm about physically LET ALONE marrying her.  And attraction doesn’t mean she has to be a super model.  It’s all unconscious.  It’s physical but not all physical.  

    Granted, he has to learn about her personality, character, compatibility potential, etc…but that don’t happen unless he’s into her, i.e. feeling a strong physical attraction for her (and he knows if he does within 4 secs. I know it within that length too, usually).

    An average looking guy will be so into a beautiful sexy woman who shows interest in him, more likely than not.  It all starts with physical/sexual attraction.  That’s what being into is all about.  And most guys know it within seconds.  It may decrease later if she acts like a psycho, but the other way around rarely happens (from no attraction to strong attraction).

    And all this nonsense that guys will be turned off by early sex only happens when they’re not that into the women (and guys will have sex when it’s offered to them, more likely than not).

    And no, sorry, bad sex isn’t necessarily only a symptom of bad relationship.  Bad sex can happen because of lack of sexual chemistry and sexual incompatibility.  It is real.  Some guys/gals are not great lovers and this fact alone affect the quality of sex a couple will have.  If a guy, for instance, doesn’t like oral sex, i can’t be with him no matter how much I am attracted to him or how much I love him and vice versa.  We’re just not compatible sexually and overtime this thing will kill our relationship.  And most of the time you can’t change someone’s sexual energy/preference.  It’s easier to find the one that matches you sexually.

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