Dating And Divorce: Is It ‘Survival Of The Sluttiest’?

Dating And Divorce: Is It 'Survival Of The Sluttiest'?

In a Huffington Post article, New York comedian Juliet Jeske lamented that after the end of a nine-year relationship, she no longer knows how to date. She describes her experiences this way:

“As a person who is by nature very direct and to the point, dating is a mystery trapped in a puzzle, tucked in a fireproof safe thrown down a mineshaft. I just can’t figure it out.”

She goes on to say that “It is just sort of expected by many that you start the physical part of the relationship first, and then see if either partner wants to continue after the fact, sort of a try before you buy situation. Sex before emotional attachment, sex before any form of relationship, sex before everything.”

Jeske is complaining specifically about dating in New York, but I think this phenomenon is universal. I mean, how many times have I said that “men look for sex and find love and women look for love and find sex”? What Jeske doesn’t seem to get is that it’s not an either/or.

You don’t have to sleep with a guy on Date 2 just because some other woman will. That other woman is most likely being used and is wondering why all the guys she sleeps with never amount to anything.

What women DO need to understand is that men are driven by attraction, sex and testosterone. And if you think it’s ridiculous that he’s going to want to have a little foreplay before you’re in a relationship, you’re going to be perpetually frustrated by reality.

Instead of complaining that men are interested in sex (duh), how about you figure out a way to better connect with him outside the bedroom during those first few formative weeks/months? And if all he wants is sex, just ditch him. It ain’t that hard.

Read the article here and let me know your thoughts in the comments below.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Bettina

    St. Stephen: Just put yourself in the other person’s shoes and think about how you are behaving toward them. Is it kind? You might find that you are using each other. That’s OK, but you aren’t better than they are if you’re both doing the same thing. If you think certain behaviors are wrong, they would be wrong for whoever does them, whether a man or a woman.  

  2. 62
    saint stephen

    @Helen
    i’m no Asian. 

  3. 63
    Lance

    I read her article and thought it was a little naive. First off, what demographic is she talking about that is “whoring it up” and being the sluttiest? Singles in their early 20′s or 30-something divorcees? There’s going to be a big difference in the dating values between those two groups. Obviously, the younger demo who spends more time in bars and clubs will appear to be sluttier than what she’s used to…because those people are partying and quick sex is what the partiers do. And there’s nothing wrong with that. My guess is she just needs to spend more time among social groups with her same values. 

    Don’t look in bars and clubs for a mate if you don’t want the quick sex set of values that comes with it. When I’m in relationship mating mode, I look in the appropriate social circle or hit up match.com. It’s easy to find LTR minded guys and gals there.  

  4. 64
    saint stephen

    @Bettina
    Could you care to be more constructive in your criticism? I never said certain types behaviors was wrong.. if i openly express my displeasure in something doesn’t make it wrong. it only means is not my kind of thing. if i detest gays does it make them wrong? at least not to them and others who care.
    I never said dating was wrong, i never even said having sex was wrong, maybe you need to re-read my posts.
    Should i have let the girl go through with the suicide when i know that by merely been with her for a period of time that could be averted?
    Non of us used each other. To me i was only helping a friend go through a trying period of her life. 

  5. 65
    Margo

    @Lance #64, I agree with your last paragraph. I have a friend who just got played, she met the guy in a bar. Despite being told better, she continues to hang in and go to bars to meet men. Fact is, deep down she probably doesn’t think she can do much better.

    Women please stay out of the bars if you want to meet quality men. 

  6. 66
    Margo

    Stephen, what Bettina is trying to tell you in post #62 is that you shouldn’t judge other people for doing things if you are doing the very same thing. For instance, your comment about not wanting a serious relationship with a woman that gives you sex too easily. Well, if she gives it up easy and early, you are participating in the act with her, so you are doing the same thing! Understand? That means if she’s a slut, so are you. So, why would she then be underserving of a serious relationship with you?? This is called the double-standard in dating, and it stinks.

    You’re not the only man who think like this, there are others on this very blog who subscribe to the very same stinking, hypocritical thinking.

     
     

  7. 68
    Goldie

    @ St Stephen #57:
     
    See, this is why no one likes to share personal info. Never did I ever say she was “a loser”. And on that note, I’m going to end my part of this conversation.
     
    Personally I think that marriage was born as a religious institution, when everyone planned on living forever, and whatever bad things happened in our brief life span on Earth, did not matter in the grand scheme of things. Hence the vows. Well it appears that we are, in fact, not going to live forever, that this is the only life we get, so I say each of us, for the most part of that life, deserves to be happy, and has an obligation to ensure he or she is not making anyone unhappy. But this goes beyond the scope of this thread.

  8. 69
    Still Looking

    Is there a causal connection between having sex early in a relationship and a man losing interest in the woman?

    - Some men have a double-standard and will lose respect for a woman he now considers “loose”
    - Some men will have performance issues and are too embarrassed to see the woman again.
    - Some men will lose interest because the sex wasn’t very good
    - Some men will lose interest because they were only hanging around long enough to have sex and are now off to the next conquest.
    - Some men will find the sex fantastic, want more, and develop a LTR assuming all the other criteria (personality, looks, compatibility, etc.) are met.
    - Some men will find the sex fantastic, want more, and eventually the relationship fizzles.

    EMK recommends no sex until in a committed relationship but the outcomes are similar:
    - Some men will agree to a committed relationship, not because they want an LTR but because they are manipulating the women and really just want sex.
    - Some men will agree to a committed relationship, they are truly interested in an LTR, the sex is fantastic and the relationship either continues or fizzles.
    - Same as above but the sex is lousy and the relationship quickly fizzles.
    - Some men will not want to hang around long enough without sex (too many other options) or are unwilling to agree to a committed relationship (commitment phobes, feeling pressured/manipulated, etc.) and the budding relationship fizzles as soon as the men realize no commitment means no sex.

    I understand some men and women don’t want to rush into sex but I fail to see a causal link between the timing of the sex and the likelihood of establishing a long-term relationship.  An argument can be made that a “good man” will be willing wait.  An argument can also be made that many good men will head for the exit too early.  Furthermore, since the vast majority of relationships don’t lead to the altar, aren’t the women more likely to be hurt if the relationship ends later rather than sooner (because of sexual incompatibility or men manipulating women just to have sex)?

    The various scenarios I presented were just the ones that popped into my head.  I’m sure there are many more.  My view is simple – a man will continue to see a woman as long as she is able to hold his interest.  For the right woman I’m willing to wait.  For others, maybe fantastic sex would keep me around until I fell in love. 

    EMK – One question if you don’t mind.  You dated for years and finally met your wife.  I have no idea, and don’t want to know when you first had sex with her, but let me toss a hypothetical your way — If you slept with your wife before you entered into a committed/exclusive relationship with her, wouldn’t you still have found her the most perfect woman in the world for you and you would still have married her??
     

    1. 69.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I usually don’t take questions here, but briefly, here’s the idea behind the sexual double standard.

      Men don’t value something if it comes too easily.

      If you sleep with us on Date 1, that’s a pretty strong indicator that you’ve slept with plenty of other people on Date 1. And most men don’t like to think of their future wives as “easy”, even though, intellectually, we can acknowledge that there’s nothing wrong with a woman who enjoys sex for sex’s sake.

      Basically, men like a challenge – to pursue you, to win you over, to charm you, to work our way around the bases and accomplish what few men have accomplished before. And the more you slow us down and give us the opportunity to get to know you platonically, the more reasons we’ll discover that we want you to be our girlfriend.

      If you sleep with me on Date 1, I’ve climbed the mountain too fast and haven’t discovered what makes you amazing personally. The thrill of the chase is gone.

      I’m not talking about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I’m saying that it’s real and that your best bet to a relationship is to delay sex. If you can handle sleeping with perfect strangers and hoping it works out, go ahead. No judgment here.

      Oh, and my wife and I? About four weeks. But I was the one who wouldn’t have sex, because that’s how I roll.

  9. 70
    Still Looking

    EMK@71

    Wow, great explanation!  The thrill of the chase for great sex, followed by great sex, could certainly keep both parties interested long enough to see if all the other factors line up.  

    I’m still not sure how the exclusive relationship requirement impacts this.  Seems like there’s a chance of X% of men heading for the door too early b/c of the time required (2 months?  3 months?) before most men are willing to enter into an exclusive relationship.  Then again, I don’t have any idea how leery most men are…..blog readers?? 

  10. 71
    Gem

    As Evan said, “Men don’t value something that comes too easy.”

    He’s basically saying (in a more gentle fashion) what other men feel about women willing to jump into bed too soon. Some men harshly judge them as ‘sluts’, some don’t label their character with a name, but still, on some psychological level, thier stock goes down. It’s still a judgement that lowers her value and the chances of him wanting to pursue her. 

    If women want to have easy and meaningless sex for fun, go for it. But if you want a LTR, and you KNOW that sex too soon can ruin the whole thing, what is the rush???

  11. 72
    Margo

    I will remind Evan that he did say that if a man really likes a woman, it doesn’t matter how early they have sex.

    1. 72.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      And I will remind Margo of all the men who’ve slept with women on the first date and never called them again. I personally work very hard NOT to be a hypocrite, to understand intellectually that if I am willing to slut around that I can’t judge her for doing the same thing. I am quite sure that the vast majority of men don’t work as hard. And it’s certainly a lot safer to make him wait before you hop into bed than if you hop into bed first and discover whether you like each other later.

  12. 73
    nathan

    Oh man, I’m so on a different wavelength than Evan on this. Which is good because it offers the women here another male take to complicate things :)
     
    First off, the the longest relationship I have been in included sex on the third date. It really never crossed my mind that she was “easy” or that she was someone who “slept” around. What happened happened naturally. There wasn’t any excessive flirting or enticing going on on either end because neither of us were like that.
     
    Second, I despise chasing and pursuing. Absolutely despise it. Perhaps it works well for some men and women, but I also find that for a lot of others, it seems to be a series of games and push-pull challenges that create a lot of frustration if things don’t work out.
     
    Third, if I start seeing someone (i.e. it’s gone beyond a few dates), I tend to stop looking at other “options.” In other words, even if we haven’t decided yet that we’re going to be exclusive, I treat it as exclusive so that I can get a clearer picture of who she is. This is probably not something many people do these days, given how much date juggling seems to go on. But I find it a hell of a lot easier, and I guess more respectful in my mind, to focus on one woman if we’ve made it past the intro. stage.
     
    Now, with all that said, I actually have mostly chosen to delay sex beyond the first few dates. Not because I think it’s wrong, but because it just hasn’t felt right for me. And I also don’t find that I have enough of a connection after a single date, or even two usually, to even consider becoming that intimate with a woman. The few times I have rushed in were in situations where both of us basically weren’t in a position to have a committed relationship – i.e. were on the rebound and a bit desperate. However, with the Ex I mentioned above, we both commented on how it felt early to being sleeping together, but at the same time, it felt right.
     
    I do think a lot of this comes down to intentions though. Evan and I might differ on approach to some degree, but we both have had the intent of finding a woman to stay with, grow with, develop a life together with. If you have that kind of intention driving you, then you’ll probably treat sex differently, regardless of when it ends up happening.

  13. 74
    Lance

    EMK, I respectfully disagree with you in #71. Men value women, sex, and relationships exactly how they value them regardless of the speed of sex. It can come fast, it can come slow, but that won’t affect our long (or short) term perspective. The reason why men go for quick sex is BECAUSE they’re looking for quick sex and they’re in that mode. Don’t try to force an LTR on a guy who’s in quick sex mode. That doesn’t work. We don’t de-value women because she “allowed” us to sleep with her on the 4th date vs. the 1st. That’s silly. 

    Bottom line is, if you (women) want an LTR with a guy, look for a guy who’s looking for an LTR also. There’s a clear difference and if you ask the right questions, it’s easy to suss out.  

    What guys should do is examine what mode they’re in and honestly say if they’re in a quick sex phase or truly in an LTR phase. Once they embrace this, they can act accordingly and only go after chicks who are in the same mode.

    When I’m in quick sex mode, I hit on chicks in bars and clubs because that’s where women are looking for the same. When I want an LTR, I go through my social circles and also do searches on match.  

  14. 75
    Bettina

    I saw a Latina comedienne in a club once. She said that every guy she knew was looking to marry a virgin. Even as he was doing everything he could to make sure that there were none left before he did. :)

  15. 76
    Helen

    nathan and Lance, I am so glad to read your comments. Even if you may come from different perspectives, you’re united in not endorsing and not living by the double standard.  Thank you.

  16. 77
    Soul Sister

    I have been enjoying reading this blog and where it has been going since I, ah, stirred up the pot a little bit with the help of the other ladies on here! 

    Here is the bottom line: we all know there is a double standard when it comes to sex in this country. We all also know it has been this way since the beginning of time and we are not going to change it. In 1983 I stood up in my sex ed class in college and started a debate on one night stands and “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”.  It was no different than how this blog went, but the professor gave me an A for having the guts to get up and argue it. :-)  For the record, I don’t do one night stands, but only because I don’t get physcial satisfaction, NOT because I think it makes me a slut!

    But for the men on here, if you try to walk in our shoes about this, yes, we know it is what it is, but it is still unfair. And every once in a while a woman is going to stomp her little foot and say “not fair dammit!”  and then when she calms down she will go back to being the gate keeper because it is what it is.  And once in a while she will just go for it because she wants to and if she screws up the opportunity for a relationship, hopefully she is mature and self confident enough to be ok with that.  Make note gentlemen, if she does have sex with you on the first date, there is a high chance she is telling you she does not see YOU as an LTR potential either! 

    @ saint stephen, please take this in the spirit it is intended.  When I was in my 20s the world was very black and white to me.  30 yrs later there is so much gray that I know judgement on others is a waste of time and energy. You are welcome to your beliefs, but I guarantee they will change over time.

    @Moe D #42 – thank you for a thoughtful comment on why you think the men are experiencing ED issues.  I appreciate it and the next time it happens (it will!) I will try to not make it about me :-)

    @ Still Looking #70 – great comment and i agree in many ways with you. Judgement is often suspended when the right person is there, regardless of the timing. Or it doesn’t matter sometimes if the right person is there because of the bad timing.

    @Evan #71 – point taken. Thanks for sharing personal information. I love your blog and did buy your eBook, and I think my “so far” success with my current boyfriend has a lot to do with you. I had no father, brothers, or male influence in my life, your information on what is going on in the male brain is invaluable to someone like me.

    @all the women on this blog, thank you for picking up the banner.  Sometimes being a woman is very difficult in a man’s world, but I love being a woman and wouldn’t have it any other way.  And I love my sisters!!

    @Nathan, Saint Stephen, and the other men, thank you for having the courage and interest to keep the debate going and give us some male perspective, even if we didn’t like some of it! :-)

    Fun topic!!  Now I gotta go get some of that sex…and I don’t give a shit what he thinks as long as he takes care of me, ha ha!!

  17. 78
    saint stephen

    @Bettina or anyone who can.
    Sorry this is completely off topic… could you please direct me how to insert emoticon. Couldn’t find it in the Menu.

  18. 79
    Karl R

    Soul Sister said: (#29)
    “men in their 40′s and 50′s are having issues getting erections or finishing. WTF?”

    There are a lot of causes for erectile dysfunction. According to this link, there are 15 physical causes (including high blood pressure, obesity and diabetes) and four psychological causes (including depression, stress and fatigue).

    There is a substantial overlap with the causes of delayed ejaculation (which includes inability to orgasm during sex), according to this link.

    One cause of delayed ejaculation which I’ve personally experienced (though it’s not mentioned in that link) is condom use. I’m unwilling to have casual sex without a condom, so I simply put up with it until I was in a serious relationship.

    Soul Sister asked: (#39)
    “Is it us? Is it you?  Is it the water?”

    It’s not the water. It might be the man. It might be the woman. It might be some combination.

    If the woman isn’t particularly participating in the sex act (for example, lying on her back, trying to decide whether to paint the ceiling beige), it’s going to be a contributing factor. However, in my experience, it’s more likely that the issue is occuring on the man’s side.

    Women aren’t much different than men in this regard. If a woman is mentally preoccupied worrying about other things, it’s going to take a lot longer for her to become aroused. If a man is preoccupied with other things, he’s unlikely to maintain an erection (until he starts focusing on sex again). It’s the same for both sexes … it’s just more externally obvious for men.

    Goldie said: (#44)
    “What I dislike, though, is when people use their ED [...] as an excuse to pull a disappearing act the next morning.”

    Has any man actually verbally expressed that “excuse” to you?

    If not, why are you convinced that ED was his reason for disappearing?

    Seriously, that’s as ridiculous as me bailing on a woman because I don’t have a six-figure income. How would that be to my benefit? I still won’t have a six-figure income in my next relationship. I might bail because it’s clear that the woman wants a wealthier man. It’s more likely that I’ll bail for an entirely different reason.

    If a man has a performance issue (even if it’s an occasional, situational issue), it’s likely to eventually occur in all of his relationships. He gains nothing by bailing when it happens.

    Evan said: (#71)
    “If you sleep with me on Date 1, [...] The thrill of the chase is gone”
    “Basically, men like a challenge – to pursue you, to win you over, to charm you, to work our way around the bases and accomplish what few men have accomplished before.”

    This may be a motivation for many men, but it’s certainly not universal.

    If a woman starts playing hard-to-get, I’m more likely to assume that she wants someone else to get her.

    Evan said: (#71)
    “the more you slow us down and give us the opportunity to get to know you platonically, the more reasons we’ll discover that we want you to be our girlfriend.”

    I agree with this statement, which is why I usually don’t rush into sex. I already know that I like sex. I’m dating the woman to find out whether I like her. Having sex delays the process of getting to know her better.

  19. 80
    Erinlee

    @Soul Sister~
         You make a good point about the one night stand thing.  Not only may it turn the guys away from a LTR, but the women as well.  However, if you are interested in one night stands you are probably not to keen on a LTR right now anyway.  If a LTR happens to come about from a one night stand or after sleeping w/ someone on the first date, it was probably chance and a whole lot of luck.  (I’ve been there)  My one night stand at the age of 22 turned into a 3 year relationship.  I had never met him before and we hit it off like I’ve never experienced before.  Even though it didn’t work out, we had 3 great years of fun and love together.  Too much chemistry here, not enough compatibility, we loved like crazy and fought like crazy.  One night stands are definitely a thing of the distant past now for me, I value myself too much to be giving that away.  
         In my twenties I have always found my boyfriend’s when I have told myself I’m NOT looking.  When I met the boyfriend at age 22, a girlfriend and myself had just promised each other a summer of being single and girl fun.  Now at the beginning of this year, after being single for a year, dating a guy for 6 months and then having him REJECT me (that’s for Jack), I decided I needed to sit out of the game for awhile.  Just date for fun, meet a lot of people and have a great funfilled year.
         So in February I met a guy at the bar but through mutual friends.  He asked me out and I said yes, of course, great start to the dating game.  I told him on our first date that I was only interested in dating casually for now.  So after a couple dates and a couple nights hanging out with friends, I was getting to know him but didn’t think I liked him in a romantic way.  1 month later, he was still pursuing me, we were spending more time together, even though this was not initially what I had wanted.  I decided that there was a lot more to him then I had originally thought.  He said he was going to win my heart over by the end of the Summer and he had me hooked at the beginning of April.  
         He was too good of a potential partner to walk away from, just so I could ‘date around’.  So from personal experience, I know that meeting the right person can completely change what you want at the time.  Had I turned down the second or third or maybe even fourth date, I would not have gotten to know him well enough to see what a great person he was.  Now, only 5 months in, I’m realizing more and more everyday just how lucky I am to have found him, before some other lucky young lady did ;)
         My point is, when you first meet someone, everything is so delicate.  You can only see what they have shown you, so one small mistake could be taken as a much larger deal than it actually is, because you are building your perspective about this person as you go.  When we think about ourselves, and how we want other’s to view us, we have our whole life to look back on and say hey, this is who I am, this is what I have done, this is what I have to offer.  This new person, though, does not have that luxery, aside from what you tell/show them and what other’s who know you say, they only know who you are from today forward.  They do not have the in depth perspective that you have of yourself, or others close to you who have known you for years.  It’s amazing how different you can think about someone from date one compared to the end of year 1. 
         The BF and I have a lot to learn about each other, hopefully it will continue to enhance our relationship and love of one another.  I’m so thankful I stuck around long enough to see the ‘real’ person underneath what people initially ‘see’ when they look at him.  I know, I’ve found a diamond in the rough.  It’s so easy to make mistakes early on or miscontrue someone’s true intentions.  I think it’s worth avoiding the simple mistakes, LIKE, sleeping with someone on the first date.  It might not make or break it, but most likely, will decrease the chances of something greater developing.

  20. 81
    Erinlee

    Saint Stephen:   just use these symbols(minus the spaces in between)  to form emoticons  :)   smiley face  =   :  )  
                            ;)   winking face  =   ;  )
                            :(   sad face  =   :  (
    those are the only ones I know!

  21. 82
    saint stephen

    Evan said
    I personally work very hard NOT to be a hypocrite, to understand intellectually that if I am willing to slut around that I can’t judge her for doing the same thing. I am quite sure that the vast majority of men don’t work as hard.

    Evan Marc Katz
    I Do not think Men are hypocritical for bailing on a woman if sex comes too easily, just as I wouldn’t think the same of women wanting equality while expecting Men to make the chase, initiate dates and still pay for them… is biological for a man not to want a promiscuous woman and absolutely nothing to do with hypocrisy or double standard.
    Okay let’s call a spade a spade. if a Man is expected to make the chase, initiate dates ,pay for them and still be responsible for keeping contacts  is it not only fair if he wants lady who is worth the time effort and resources? And even though I don’t do that, still I do not hold it against a man who took to his heels after having his way too “easily” and probably assumes the lady is promiscuous. (Ladies don’t take it personal, I’m only shedding an insight of a Man’s Mentality). Believe me Most men would cringe at the idea of having a woman who had gone through so many men.
    The Male brain is very imaginative and can frequently pictures things and events , that would explain why men can comfortably unclothe a fully clothed woman (in their brain), So the last thing a man would want running through his brain is the thought of many men previously fondling and banging his wife to be.
    Evan no matter how hard you work not to view women who get down easily with you, for most Men it has been ingrained in them to view those women as easy *Lay* and unsuitable wife or LTR material.
    I am sure many men share in this thought even though some won’t openly admit it.

    @Erinlee
    thanks! :) 

  22. 83
    Bettina

    SS@85: I think your info on human biology is incorrect, and you have completely left off the social reasons/conditioning that would lead to the differences in male/female mating and dating behavior. So you might do some thinking about that.

    Also, I meant to add–about the suicide attempt. We should never try to intervene in a suicide attempt unless we are trained to do so. These are very challenging situations and the end result could have been the opposite of what you intended. If someone is threatening violence against him/herself or another person, the correct response is to call 911, security, or law enforcement.  

  23. 84
    Goldie

    Cool, Karl is back, now we’re going to finally get this cluster untangled :)
     
    Goldie said: (#44)
    “What I dislike, though, is when people use their ED [...] as an excuse to pull a disappearing act the next morning.”
    Has any man actually verbally expressed that “excuse” to you?
    If not, why are you convinced that ED was his reason for disappearing?
     
    I am not. I said in #44 that it was a quote from Soul Sister (the little piece that you left out). I have no personal experience to back this statement up. The only man who pulled a disappearing act on me, has so much serious personal stuff going on, he probably couldn’t explain the reason for disappearing if he tried. (Actually, now that I think of it, he did try, and couldn’t.) What I personally experienced multiple times, was being pushed into a sort-of LTR (I cannot call that thing LTR) because the man couldn’t perform with a condom. People would actually come out and say “I can’t wear this thing, so let’s be exclusive… but I don’t want to complicate things, so no obligations” – as in, no plans on spending time together outside of the bedroom, none of the usual couples stuff except for being exclusive. First guy who offered me this, actually got away with it, because he was an old friend and I cut him a lot of slack… but not anymore. I didn’t like this arrangement, and am not going to have it with anyone again! Don’t care if they can “wear the thing” or not – I’ve got to look out for myself first – and I know I’ll be wasting my time in a relationship(?) like that.
     
    If a man has a performance issue (even if it’s an occasional, situational issue), it’s likely to eventually occur in all of his relationships. He gains nothing by bailing when it happens.
     
    Maybe he’s just embarrassed to look her in the eye the next day, and holding out hope (false or not) that things will go better with someone new.

  24. 85
    nathan

    SS85 – “Evan no matter how hard you work not to view women who get down easily with you, for most Men it has been ingrained in them to view those women as easy *Lay* and unsuitable wife or LTR material.” 
     
    “Ingrained” as a result of hundreds of years of patriarchal social conditioning suggesting that men are free to have as many partners during a lifetime as they please, but women cannot (without being shamed and discarded).  Please go do some research on the history of social conditioning around gender. 
     
    And while you’re at it, perhaps also do some research into modern brain science, especially around brain plasticity. People can change their lives, drastically sometimes, because our brains are a hell of lot more flexible and changeable than we think they are. Those who repeat the same negative patterns over and over again just haven’t learned how to break though them, and/or don’t have the support to actually try and do something else.
     
    The same thing goes for how we think about the world. Everyday, you choose to believe whatever it is you believe about men, women, relationships, and life in general. Those beliefs might be completely reinforced (or even forced upon you in some cases) by the people and culture around you, but they are not some final truth that can never change. If enough counter evidence appears before you, you might change you mind. Or that evidence might just make your current views stronger, depending upon how you see it. But in any case, how we think is probably more a matter of choice as it is how we are “wired.”
     
    If I consider my own views around gender and relationships, they are greatly different today than when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Back then, I had a vague desire for equality in a relationship, but none of the specifics behind that really were present. Furthermore, I had next to no experience in actually taking care of a relationship, being that equal partner, and understanding, for example, that we all make mistakes, and that really loving someone means a lot more than some abstract notions about what’s right and wrong. 
     
    Stepping off the lecture podium now. Best of luck to you.
     
     
     

  25. 86
    sharon

    @ 85
    lol because women never picture men naked or with the ex girlfriends. I think the problem with too many and too soon is that there are no clear cut rules. Some guys would only be comfortable with a women that waited for marriage some its under 10 some its cool as long as its 50% of their tally.
    Look it for our perspective, I could really be into you and feel it was right and except your offer only to have you reject me tomorrow because I was feeling something you weren’t. I’m not a mind reader I’m taking you at your word. if I woman dated for three months before having sex and had two relationships a year starting at 16 (the average age women have sex) she would have 28 partners by 30. If half of those guys were only around for a sex and bailed the next day her number could be closer to 42.
    So in your expert opinion how many are too many how soon is too soon?

  26. 87
    Karl R

    Goldie said: (#87)
    “Cool, Karl is back, now we’re going to finally get this cluster untangled”

    I don’t do miracles.

    Goldie said: (#87)
    “I said in #44 that it was a quote from Soul Sister (the little piece that you left out).”

    Reread Soul Sister’s post. You weren’t quoting her or even accurately paraphrasing her. I left out that little piece because I was trying to avoid nitpicking the small stuff.

    Goldie said: (#87)
    “Maybe he’s just embarrassed to look her in the eye the next day, and holding out hope (false or not) that things will go better with someone new.”

    Do you have a female friend who has a horribly negative body image? Does she leave a man because he’s seen her naked and she’s embarassed to look him in the eye again … or does she avoid the whole issue by not dating in the first place?

    If the man is that humiliated, he’s not out repeating the experience with additional women.

    s. stephen said: (#85)
    “The Male brain is very imaginative and can frequently pictures things and events, [...] So the last thing a man would want running through his brain is the thought of many men previously fondling and banging his wife to be.”

    I have an above-average ability to visualize things, and I’ve never had this supposed problem.

    I don’t want to visualize my fiancée having sex with other men, so I don’t put in the effort to do so. I am aware of a number of her previous boyfriends, and I’ve even met some of them. But I’m not trapped in obsessive thoughts about what she’s done in the past.

    s. stephen said: (#85)
    “Most men would cringe at the idea of having a woman who had gone through so many men.”

    “Most men”? How have you arrived at that conclusion?

    I realize that we hang out in different social circles, but most men that I know don’t expect women to hold to a different sexual standard than they do.

    When I’ve had sex with a woman (whether it was a brief fling, a longer fling, or a serious relationship), I don’t believe that I’ve “gone through” her.

    Our words shape our thoughts. Perhaps the problem is how you choose to view sex (and sex partners).

    I’m sure that there are other men who share your perspective. However, I have not seen any evidence that they represent a majority.

    “Most men” are not still living in the 1950s.

  27. 88
    Bettina

    Nathan@88: No, no!! Please!! Step back onto the lecture podium!! That was great. One of the best things I’ve ever read on here.

  28. 89
    saint stephen

    Bettina said 
    I think your info on human biology is incorrect, and you have completely left off the social reasons/conditioning that would lead to the differences in male/female mating and dating behavior. So you might do some thinking about that.

    Bettina- if that mentality (or Behavior) was due to social reasoning/conditioning, then i believe the western civilization ought to have completely eroded it.
    Is it social reasons that conditioned women into having a preference for tall men? No! is because it makes them feel feminine, secured, even though we now live in era of guns and deadly weapons, yet they still held on to their beliefs of feeling safe and feminine with only tall men. that trait is to me biological not social.
    It is in a man’s inherent nature to hop from one female to another (also evident in animals), definitely not the other way round. few women may possess this trait, still exception doesn’t change the rule.
    Many women would get turned off dating a man who behaves like a woman, likewise men dating a woman who behaves like a man (sexually). 

  29. 90
    Helen

    Sheesh, you men are confusing us.
     
    On the one side we have Evan and Stephen, who state that if women sleep with men too easily, they tend to be devalued in men’s eyes.  On the other side we have nathan, Lance, and Karl R, who imply that men do not devalue women even if they sleep with them on the 1st date as opposed to the nth (where n>1).  Or in any case, do not hold women to a different standard than themselves.
     
    So which is it?  Or is there genuinely no consensus among men on this issue?

    1. 90.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Great point, Helen. There isn’t consensus on this issue, but there is this:

      I don’t speak for myself when I write this blog; not necessarily, anyway. I try to speak for the majority of men, based on my observations about how the world works.

      So if you want to know if men devalue you for sleeping with men on the first few dates, then sleep with a bunch of men on the first few dates and see how many stick around. I’m predicting it will be very few. And just because Karl, Nathan, Lance, or I would try not to judge you for it, it doesn’t mean that most men operate this way. I try to give you the perspective that works for the greatest number of people. Obviously, there will be many exceptions to any rule.

      But I think it’s a good rule to make a guy wait until he’s your boyfriend, and I won’t back down from that.

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