How Risky Is It to Break the Commitment First Rule and Have Sex?

I’m a 34-year old woman living in New York City, looking for that great love. I get asked on a lot of dates, however, it’s been difficult to find a wonderful, committed relationship after I broke up with my ex of 2 years. I don’t like to have casual sex…so this means I haven’t had sex in a while, and I’m dying over here, Evan!!

I’m currently dating a guy I’m crazy about and really want to sleep with, but I haven’t dared suggest commitment because I know he’s gun shy about a relationship and I don’t want to scare him away. When I give him space, he keeps coming around (think good old “why men love bitches” approach). We have really, really nice hook-ups but no sex yet (it’s been about 2.5 months) because he knows I only do that with men I’m committed to and he isn’t there (yet?).

If I’m looking for love, I have to keep sticking to sex only with commitment, right? Waiting to have sex until I’m committed with someone is taking so long (it’s so hard to say that out loud – gosh). Part of me just really wants to do it already with 2.5 month guy and not have a chat about it, but maybe it’s too risky? Is there ever a scenario where it’s safe for a woman to have sex with a man she’s been out with 5-6 times, even before they’ve had a “commitment” conversation, and she does hope they might end up in a committed relationship?

– Sexually frustrated in the Big Apple

Dear Sex,

Dating advice isn’t so much about “rules” as it is about “guidelines.”
For everything I’ve ever written, I can find an exception or contradiction, which is why it’s so important to figure out how specific advice applies to YOU.

Please, allow me to refer you to two blog posts where I straddle both sides of the fence.

Why Women Should Make Men Wait for Sex

Can You Have Meaningless Sex While You’re Looking for a Long-Term Relationship?

In the former, I lay out a point-by-point, logical case as to why women, in general, would be wiser to not sleep with men before commitment. In short, it sucks to sleep with a guy and see him looking for other women online the next morning. If you don’t like that feeling, then stop sleeping with men and keeping your fingers crossed that they commit.

In the second post, I allude to my stance on “sexclusivity.” I think it’s smart to vet your partner as boyfriend material BEFORE you sleep with him, but I’m quick to acknowledge that if YOU can handle the consequences of sleeping with a guy who is not your boyfriend, more power to you. Some women can’t. Sexclusivity is for them.

Now, let’s bring this back to you and your situation (which will probably be resolved before this blog even posts, unfortunately).

I understand what it means to be “dying” for sex. Not because I’m married, but because, I, too stopped sleeping with women who weren’t my girlfriend for a few years before I got married. (Different reasons for me: I hated to sleep with women I knew I wouldn’t date and got sick of the headaches and drama that sex caused.)

This guy doesn’t want to be your boyfriend. If he did, he’d already be your boyfriend.

But this paragraph had me alarmed on a couple of levels:

I’m currently dating a guy I’m crazy about and really want to sleep with, but I haven’t dared suggest commitment because I know he’s gun shy about a relationship and I don’t want to scare him away. When I give him space, he keeps coming around (think good old “why men love bitches” approach). We have really, really nice hook-ups but no sex yet (it’s been about 2.5 months) because he knows I only do that with men I’m committed to and he isn’t there (yet?).

Whew. Let’s whip through those red flags quickly, shall we?

    1. “I haven’t dared suggest commitment.” You shouldn’t have to. He should WANT to commit.
    2. “He’s gun shy about a relationship.” Why would you WANT a boyfriend who is gun shy about relationships? If you’re looking for “great love,” wouldn’t it stand to reason it would be with a man who is ALSO excited about “great love”?
    3. “When I give him space…” If you’re mirroring, you’re not “giving him space,” you’re just living your life and paying attention to his efforts to become your boyfriend.
    4. “It’s been about 2.5 months…and he isn’t there yet.” And that’s the kicker, Sex.

This guy doesn’t want to be your boyfriend. If he did, he’d already be your boyfriend. Right now, he’s using you for blowjobs and hoping you soften your stance on intercourse.

So, unless you just want to use him for sex in return, cut things off with him and find yourself a guy who steps up to become your boyfriend in less than 6 weeks.

It’s not too long to wait for sex and it’ll save you the trouble of waiting for this non-committal fool to step up the way you want him to.

Good luck.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Emily, the original

    2 1/2 months and no sex? That seems strange. And how long does he disappear when she gives him his space? Something is off.

    1. 1.1
      Sum Guy

      Emily

      if I am reading this right she is the one saying no sex yet but they have gotten hot n heavy.

      One thing to recall this is NYC, time is tight.  Your 30s are prime career time and it is dog-eat-dog there on the career paths.  Working 60 hours a week is common.

      Given she may be busy to, they may have seen each other less than 10 times.

      1. 1.1.1
        Emily, the original

        Hi Sum Guy,

        Given she may be busy to, they may have seen each other less than 10 times.

        Ok. I didn’t read it carefully enough. She mentions they’ve been out 5-6 times in 2.5 months. If they both are very busy, I guess it depends on how much communication there is between dates. But she mentioned she gives him space and he keeps returning. There’s been no talk of a relationship. I agree with Selena on this one. This guy has put her on the back burner. It’s time for her to remove herself from the stove!

    2. 1.2
      Selena

      5-6 dates in 2.5 months works out to not seeing each other very often.

      Sounds to me he is just into what you give him when you “hook up”.  You are on his “back burner” when he doesn’t have anything better going on that day, that week. He’s not, and probably never will be interested in anything beyond that.

      Don’t do casual? Stop hooking up with Mr. Casual.

      Not judging – I’ve been there too.

      1. 1.2.1
        Sum Guy

        Hi Selena, Emily,

        Maybe this goes to show the different perspective of men vs women.  I’m trying to put myself in the guys place.

         

        I’ll admit have nowhere near enough information to advise if this is general NYC busy life (on both their parts), if he is not into her, if he is uncertain if he wants a relationship or if he wants one but is uncertain of her.

         

        That is why I try to focus on the other perspective and give ideas on how she may be able to figure it out one way or another.  Also share from my own experience things you can say and ask to a good man that he will view as reasonable.

         

        Don’t assume the best of this guy but don’t assume the worse either.  We have just a piece of the picture, the facts that make her nervous, no idea how the conversations go down between them, the extent they have gone out, what they have done together, or any of that, just that they got hot n heavy.  She admits its been a while and finds him attractive, and a good guy is not likely to hold back when he feels that.  Yet I didn’t get he is pressuring her; if he is big negative; more that she wants to and is worried.

        1. Emily, the originala

          Sum Guy,

          no idea how the conversations go down between them,

          But that’s just it. They haven’t really had a conversation. I’m not calling him a good or bad man. I’m just writing that he must have some idea that if he dates the same woman 5 to 6 times in a relatively short period of time (weeks and weeks haven’t gone by between dates) she may at some point wonder what is going on.

  2. 2
    Malika

    Men don’t love bitches, but quite a few respect women that have reasonable boundaries, such as you. Please don’t call yourself or any other woman a bitch , when they articulate the reasonable way they want to be treated.

    You don’t need commitment before sex, you just need to know his intentions. When several dates occur this becomes clear and you can act accordingly.

    It’s very tempting to have sex with him as you are attracted and it has been a while. It’s your choice whether to go ahead or not. Just as long as you are also willing to sign up to the possibility of him the day afterwards *suddenly* realizing that a relationship is not on the cards (‘but hey we can still have fun, right? You are so amazing/beautiful etc but i’m not going to be there… for a while). Or he starts blathering about a girl he’s really in love with, but hey thanks for the memories. I cannot guarantee this will happen, but the likelyhood is big. Can you deal with that? Because that bs ate up the better part of my twenties, and wouldn’t wish it on to anyone else.

    If he is being gun shy about wanting a relationship you are best off breaking it of altogether. In my experience men who are excited about you don’t act all wishy washy after 2 months. They pretty much know where it’s going after a month, and either their words or more often actions will make this clear to you. Men who want to commit usually make this clear before the moment of commitment is in sight, keep in regular touch, and while they probably want ‘space’, they are excited when they are able to see you again. They do not contact you irregularly or hum and haw about whether you want a relationship, two months in.

    1. 2.1
      Nissa

      I believe she was referencing the book, Why Men Love Bitches by Sherry Argov.

  3. 3
    E.B.

    Thank you for this post.  Some of the examples seem straight forward, and I see your answer clearly.  Others are more difficult for me to understand, this was o e of them for me.  And, your answer .are perfect sense!  Thank you for making sense of the male creature! 🙂

  4. 4
    Sum Guy

    Sex,

    First, more power to you dating in NYC in your 30s, hear it’s one of the roughest no-commitment places.  Well caveat, I’m getting this mostly from folks in Park Slope.

    That being said in your context he may well be exhibiting commitment and relationship behavior.  I find for myself and guys I’ve known, we are more ready to act in every committed way than to start labeling things with words.

    I view labels as just words, it is your actions that make it meaningful.  If he is a good man, his actions will speak for him and back up his words (not so much the little things that City life can mess with, like work n being on time or the F’n G 😉 )

    I will say this as a good man, if you asked me about exclusivity I would be fine with that; in fact if I am hoping for a Relationship with you (and I thought you felt the same) I’d already be just dating you (sex or not).   But good men get their heart broken to, so if I was unsure of how you felt about me I may still date others.

    But here’s the thing with a good man, you can have a conversation with him about it.

    Now the labels commitment and relationship are more than just words to a good man.   I word avoid the word commitment and instead think of the behaviors that embody what it means to you.  For me commitment means more than exclusivity, exclusivity is a baseline, it almost means moving in or thinking of marriage    I don’t think any good man who can honestly say after 2.5 months if he would marry or move in with someone, it is just too short of time and frankly without the sexual comparability knowledge he would never say.

    I’m likely reading way more into commitment than most, maybe not, that’s why I prefer thinking of actions instead of broad characterizations of them.

    If he’s a good man, the most he will likely say is he doesn’t know yet but wants to keep seeing you to find out.   If he has a lot of fun with you then sex can wait. But as you know yourself, a person can get really horny.

    In NYC 2.5 months could be a long time to go without sex if that is all he wanted.  I am assume he is not sleeping with anyone else at the moment.

    Now on having a relationship.   Not sure how often you see each other or degree of interaction but given this is busy NYC where time is precious he may feel you already have one.    Or if a good man he is figuring out if he wants one with you, as a good man is not going to take that lightly and he may have had his heart hurt too.

    To me, a relationship is in the actions.   It would mean you see each other regularily, like I’d like to plan and save my Saturday nights (just for example could be any day) for you (barring long standing plans).

    You want to get to know each other, so you could say how you would like to check in with him every other day or so to see how his day is, to get to know HIM through his daily grind, not the out n about him.

    Also, at some point you’ll want to meet each other’s friends, likely on your date night.

    As a good man Im not going to make long term promises until I experience all the above for at least 6 months.  Yet if we saw each other twice a week I’d likely wonder what is up if we hadn’t had sex after 4 months.

    If I enjoy you I can enjoy the ride without sex.   Provided I don’t think you are taking me on a free drink n free dinner ride.   During all that time a good man will be exclusive, but might be getting pretty horny.

    now let’s say he is not interested in anything more than sex, a good man will let you know if asked

    However, a guy who just wants you for sex won’t.    He will say what you want to hear, “dutifully” wait 6 months or more because he will not be exclusive (although he says he is)    I mean it is NYC it’s easy for him to not be and who would know

    You cant prevent that no more than a good man can prevent a woman from doing the same to him for free food n drinks.

    all I can say is you can hedge yourself, by seeing him alot in his free time, having regular communication at least every other day (that should be fun actually and in fact he may be bursting to share things but doesn’t want to come off as needy)  and begin to let your social worlds meet.   Not family yet, generally.

    It boils down to a: exclusivity, have fun with you, get to know you more and let’s take it slow conversation.    He may reasonably (and honestly) not know what he wants or thinks your relationship will be.  He may have hopes, but if they are like marriage or moving in he may be reluctant to share those as too much too soon.

    1. 4.1
      Stacy

      Words are powerful enough to even change the course of a nation.  It’s never ‘just words’.  Words reflect your soul. With that said,

      Both Actions AND Words have to match.  I want a man to be committed to me (which I currently have) both through oral expression and actions.In fact, if it’s just words, he should have no problem making it clear to her that he’s exclusive.

      1. 4.1.1
        Sum Guy

        I agree to that Stacey on exclusivity.

         

        I think I am misunderstood and misunderstanding.  To me exclusivity is the baseline, if he says no to that you have no relationship, no chance at commitment.

         

        To me a relationship and commitment are much more than exclusivity.

         

        If he can’t agree to exclusivity, then dump him. 

         

        I’m not getting from the original question that he said no to exclusivity, I’m not even sure that conversation has been had.  I think I might have assumed he was being exclusive; probably projecting as if I’m seeing someone for 2 months (or even more than 3 dates) I don’t see anyone else at the same time; I’m exclusively seeing you.

         

        My focus on actions in the first instance is more that a player will certainly agree to exclusivity, won’t bat an eye, but it’s a lie.  Look at how he acts.

         

        Also look at where you are, 2.5 months though it seems like a long time to me, maybe short with a busy NYC life.

        It may be dragging out because of her as well, I don’t know.

        He may be taking it slow in his own way, getting to know her slowly not placing her above career and friends, yet, he may be nervous about her.  If he is being exclusive while doing that, then maybe look at his actions in that context but really get to more frequently  and regularly seeing each other (that is get more “serious”) to ensure he is not lying to you or stringing you along.

         

        There is always the possibility that he thinks she is putting him on the back burner if for some reason she cancels due to a busy life, or he misreads her giving him space as disinterest.

        1. Nissa

          Sum Guy, when a woman is focused on being in her feminine energy, she’s not going to ask him for exclusivity. If he wants it, he’ll ask for it. If he doesn’t ask for it, then he is not interested “enough” to ask. I got the impression from your words “If he’s not interested in agreeing to exclusivity” that you are assuming she has asked him for this. Likely, she has not – she’s waiting for him to say he wants it.

          I want to specify that this is not playing games. Most men do two things: 1) assume that a woman wants exclusivity and relationship unless told otherwise, and 2) don’t promise a woman anything he doesn’t want to give. However, if he keeps his mouth shut and she offers him sex, that’s a loophole in the rules that he can use. He can happily accept her time, sex, etc without falling into the ‘bad guy’ trap, because “he never said that!!”. Evan has said some version of this many times on this blog.

          However, if a woman asks, it can seem like she’s putting pressure on him, so that even if he agrees, it may be under duress in his mind (no matter how casually a woman may speak, reality and perception often differ). Therefore it’s a poor practice for a woman, as it often does not achieve the aim. It’s a far more effective practice for her to show enthusiasm for his actions, to say yes when she can, to be effusive in her praise and to follow his lead. Once they are in a relationship, she can then take on more, but only slowly even then.

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Nissa,

          I agree in that I think she didn’t ask but don’t know.

          Also agree that asking and him saying yes is no guarantee of anything but it does remove a loophole for a conscientious guy and if he says no she knows where he stands.   Likely she is uncertain and therefore afraid of the answer.

          I like this,

          Most men do two things: 1) assume that a woman wants exclusivity and relationship unless told otherwise, and 2) don’t promise a woman anything he doesn’t want to give.”

          Those are good assumptions, I find it interesting people are so nervous about this as most men want woman to be exclusive with them as well.  The loophole is just fear or playing around until something better comes along.  Which leads me to this.

           

          when a woman is focused on being in her feminine energy, she’s not going to ask him for exclusivity. If he wants it, he’ll ask for it. If he doesn’t ask for it, then he is not interested “enough” to ask.”

          To which I could say, when a man is focused in his masculine energy he is not going ask her for exclusivity.  If she wants it, she’ll ask for it as women are the gate keepers if there is going to be a relationship or sex.  If she doesn’t ask, then she is not interested enough to be yours and you are free to fulfill your masculine energy.

          [Rant warning, nothing personal just some concepts I find so damaging to understanding between the sexes and genders I’ll go on]

           

          Although I do agree there are biological differences, especially on average, between men and women, I almost always never agree with people lumping certain behaviors and characteristics under masculine or feminine.  It may be a convenient cultural association, but it ain’t biology, nor a predictor of character.

           

          Rather it is almost always an excuse for doing nothing or bad behavior.

           

          There is nothing inherently biologically feminine about waiting for him to ask, to have him sweep her off her feet.  It’s reactive and passive, even if you encourage him.   There is nothing wrong if that is what you want, but then you don’t get to complain or whine or wonder or say someone is not a man if he doesn’t do that, at most he is just not the man for you.    It is society that has conditioned you to think it is feminine to react and encourage, instead of be proactive.

           

          If you value that quality above all others in a man, then by all means it is an important test.  However, I suspect there are many more men who all the important qualities you seek, who might view a reactive and passive woman as being coy.  Or maybe in this area they may not be as proactive, or tired of the coy game, or coming off a bad relationship, etc., etc., yet that doesn’t make them unsuitable or less of a man.

           

          If you value a man who believes in the social equality between the genders (will assume there are just two for the sake of argument), that women shouldn’t be locked into or shamed into or presumed to fall into gender roles (and they are less than true women if they do not fall into these roles); then why would one want to have gender roles in the dating process or even give credence to the idea that there are such a thing as gender roles?

           

          Didn’t women in the 20’s, the 40’s, the 60’s, the 70s, even today fight for the belief and right to do a “mans” work, to not be shamed for how they dress, not to be shamed for asking a guy out, not to be shamed for wanting sex, not to be looked down on for not wanting kids, not to be looked down on for wanting a career, not to be just a support system for “the man” in their life, to basically not be judged and have expectations put upon them because of the chromosomes they were born with.

           

          Yet, when it comes to dating those chromosomes, miraculously, set up expectations in the woman’s favor.  Is saying that certain things are a man’s role not just gender shaming him?

           

          I think a person does themselves a disservice when they use such inconsequential things as it is his job to ask for exclusivity or it is her job to ask to filter people.  This is not an important part of character nor any indication of a person’s character.

           

          The important things in a partner to me are if they are generally (we all have our weak moments and fears): confident, easygoing, happy, selfless, supportive, fun, stable, sexual, content, attentive, reasonable, consistent, honest and committed.  (That’s Evan’s list by the way and a good one)

          None of these traits should be gender specific, that is, a man wants these same things from woman (again assuming the whole two gender hetero thing here).

           

          Him not asking her about exclusivity doesn’t necessarily mean he lacks confidence in general, or is not honest or that he is not interested in being committed.   To assume a man who is interested in exclusivity always asks and if he does not it is a sign he is thus not interested in such, is a fallacy.  At best it is generalization for a certain type of guy, in most situations, but not an indicator of anything important.

           

          As an aside the whole manosphere and PUA community does the same things using spurious biological arguments and gender roles to support all the negative views they have about women and to give men a free pass on being a**holes.

           

          Lastly to end the rant, Nissa, I do see the positives connotations in the term feminine energy (I do like what I believe it to be)and realize it may be a short hand.  I do understand how people want to protect there hearts, and would like there to be some rules about which gender does what.   It’s not that simple in a society where gender is not supposed to limit what you can be.

          My concern is that when we hide behide characterizations (gender roles) and assumptions to avoid rejection we forget  character is the important part and may well throw out good men/women with the bad.

        3. Clare

          Sum Guy,

           

          Rantish though it may be, I do agree with you here to quite a large extent. Being feminine is about more than just hanging back, and I also agree that a lot of the “rules” about feminine behaviour in dating were born out of women being afraid of getting hurt. But of course, there is no way to avoid getting hurt completely in dating – if you want to avoid all hurt and disappointment associated with dating, you should just avoid dating altogether. Because I used to subscribe to the purely passive school of thought for feminine behaviour (and to be fair Sum Guy, there actually is a lot to be said for it. It’s not about being purely passive, it’s about responding and receiving and appreciating – often these are done in a way which is very warm and wonderful towards men, and DOES involve a lot of active behaviours on the woman’s part to make him feel good. It also stops the relentless chasing by clueless women who are unaware of how overwhelming and offputting this is to a man.) I found it to be appealing for many reasons, and I found it certainly did put me in the driving seat about getting into a relationship. I also found that it allowed me to be spoiled and wooed like a queen while dating. Men would ask for exclusivity, and I would gladly accept.

           

          However, the problem that I found with being this way, and with the whole Rori Raye way of dating (she is the ultimate guru on this whole passive, feminine philosophy) is that it took away a lot of my choice in the dating process, and I have since distanced myself from the whole RR community and way of thinking. You are encouraged to date lots of men at a time and to give your time and attention and feminine gifts to the man who earns it. Well, I ask, where is my choice in all of this? It makes it purely about the man’s effort and assumes I don’t have the discernment to choose a good man myself. I am also uncomfortable about dating several people at once when I really like one of them, and never found it to be an effective strategy to take my mind off the one I liked.

           

          The other thing is, I am uncomfortable with NEVER initiating. Now, I absolutely feel that relationships should not become unbalanced. One person should not be doing FAR more of the initiating than the other, but anything around 50/50, 60/40, is fine I would say. Also, as I have mentioned previously, I always offer to pay my way on dates. And I have found that there are a number of quality men who will split the tab. You have to look at the man holistically. My ex-husband and I used to go halves on all our dates when we first started dating, and he turned out to be a wonderful and generous financial provider when we were married. So I don’t have a hard and fast rule about the man always paying, and I know the whole RR philosophy forbids women from offering to pay. Well, I don’t much like being forbidden to do anything.

           

          The other thing is that when you will only settle for what has been defined as very masculine, proactive behaviour, that is what you will get in the relationship. Whilst it may be lovely to be wooed and courted while dating, in a relationship, such men often like to have their own way and don’t like cooperating. If you want a more collaborative relationship, you might be better off accepting a man who is not all guns blazing during dating.

           

          Finally, I have found that no relationship stands or falls on the strength of a text message or phone call or invitation from a woman. Unless you are doing it excessively. But if you contact him, and he is happy to hear from you, where is the harm? And if gets gun shy and backs off, the relationship was probably not going to work out to begin with.

        4. Nissa

          Clare, I love what you said: it’s about responding and receiving and appreciating – often these are done in a way which is very warm and wonderful towards men. Yes, yes, yes.

          I should add that I have also never been able to juggle multiple men, mostly because the ones that meet my criteria were few & far between. What I do now if I see a man I like online, I will view his profile or mark it as a favorite. I’ve also sent emails, though I have not had success with that. In person, I follow Hussey’s guidelines – I move to where he is, speak directly to him about something in the environment, smile and look him in the eye. If he still doesn’t make a move after that, I give up and move on. So that is my compromise – take action that makes me easy to access while maintaining a state of being, and leaving further action to him. This allows for a man (such as Sum Guy is talking about) who may not want to ‘put it all on the line’ for a woman who doesn’t show interest. But if he’s still not interested after I’ve made it so easy f0r him (mmm, smell those warm cookies), then I accept his lack of action as all the information I need, and move on.

        5. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          In person, I follow Hussey’s guidelines – I move to where he is, speak directly to him about something in the environment, smile and look him in the eye. If he still doesn’t make a move after that, I give up and move on.

          Are you talking about Matthew Hussey? Is he not a hunkzoid?!  🙂  There was a debate several posts ago about women giving signals and most of the men said women’s signals were too subtle. This guy at my apartment complex asked me three times over the course of a few weeks if I was going to the Christmas party. He told me he was going. Each time, I said I wasn’t going and that I didn’t even know there was a party. To me, that’s pretty obvious. You tell me the exact date and time of where you are going to be and ask me if I’ll be there and I say no. But I don’t know if that’s being clear enough.

        6. Evan Marc Katz

          I’ll make sure to tell Hussey he’s a hunkazoid the next time I see him.

          Last month when we were out to dinner, a woman came up to us and acted like I didn’t even exist while she was fawning all over him.

          Believe it or not, Hussey would trade his fame for a happy relationship in a heartbeat. He’s just 30, so he’s got time to figure it all out.

        7. Emily, the original

          I have a feeling he gets that response from women a lot.

        8. Sum Guy

          Hi Clare,

          What you are doing sounds perfect to me from my perspective.

           

          This RR thing does sound like you are a “object,” a very valuable “object” but an “object” none the less, that just hopes she gets chosen by the right man, or holds off until the right man just comes along.

           

          I agree with this:

          The other thing is that when you will only settle for what has been defined as very masculine, proactive behaviour, that is what you will get in the relationship. Whilst it may be lovely to be wooed and courted while dating, in a relationship, such men often like to have their own way and don’t like cooperating. If you want a more collaborative relationship, you might be better off accepting a man who is not all guns blazing during dating.”

           

          I will add, that settling for only very masculine behavior oft seems to me to be a cop out.  Although from here you may get the idea I’m not proactive, I am very much proactive and plan, pay, flirt, will go for the first kiss (but moving slowly, making well sure it is desired; so far so good).  I’m lucky that the way I am, in this regard, is also our cultures idea of masculine, and like to think I’m also that collaborative man as well.  I do like a bit of the chase, flirty coyness, not push-chase.  I can be flirty coy to.

           

          As for me, I guess I like to see a little “masculine” in the women I am interested in, a little proactivity, as I truly am most interested in partner and, this may sound odd, but if she has a some “masculine” I’m more comfortable showing more “feminine” aspects of me later.  That is, men get down to, there are times when they just need someone to listen a shoulder to lean on (not necessarily cry).  Not often, not often at all, but when you are in that space you want to feel that the woman in your life will not think less of you.

           

          So my view is that women who expect you to do certain things because you are a man, and do them all the time, are not that kind of partner material.

           

          Know the whole paying for dates thing is such a thing/rule it seems for some dating coaches.  I can say for myself it is simply the offer, or the idea that it is not expected of me because I am male (it may be expected for other reasons) that is important.

          When it comes down to it, I always pay for the early dates unless she is insistent on splitting.  I’ll pay even though she offers, which is normal or more likely will just offer to pay upfront, especially if I had fun.  Caveat, I do this for friends as well, so it’s not like I’m kowtowing.   If I had a good time, happy to pay.

          In my experience she almost always insists on paying for the second date (I do like that).   Fourth dates on, well at that point we are a “thing” and it just happens as it happens, there are dinner dates at home, going to see bands, movies, etc.

           

        9. Nissa

          He’s cute, but I think it’s more that he does a lot with what he has. To me, what is appealing about Hussey is his passion for what he does, and his openness. But I think having a relationship with him would be different. He would do well to take a page from Evan in that if your work is your end-all-be-all, you will likely be alone if you don’t take time out to be with your partner.

        10. Sum Guy

          Hi again Nissa,

          I think this is a great approach,

          “– I move to where he is, speak directly to him about something in the environment, smile and look him in the eye. If he still doesn’t make a move after that, I give up and move on. So that is my compromise – take action that makes me easy to access while maintaining a state of being, and leaving further action to him. ”

          I take that as a good sign of potential interest, also intelligence on the part of the woman as it takes a bit of intelligence to pick out something form the environment…bonus points if it is humorous.   I take this as a good signal but realize she may also be outgoing…further conversation will tell. 🙂

          It’s also how I approach talking to women (caveat cold approaches in public places is generally not my thing, but I’ve done it before and have gotten dates by doing it).   Yet I can be very outgoing, so do talk to women I have no interest in sexually in a friendly and non-flirty way, but alas I think this sometimes backfires…that is they think I’m interested.  Hence I don’t read 100% interest in me if a woman approaches me, just 90%. 🙂

          On this:

          This allows for a man (such as Sum Guy is talking about) who may not want to ‘put it all on the line’ for a woman who doesn’t show interest.”

          Kind of.  For me these days it is not about fear of rejection, more I don’t want to bother someone.  I’m happy to just make a comment about the environment to strike up a conversation, but I don’t want to bug someone or waste her time or mine if they come off just polite or cool.

          A big tell for me, and I think I do the same, is if they turn their body towards me when they respond.  Not a given, tone can also show interest, a turning of the head, a certain glance and smile…:)  Why one reason I also prefer to find a way to sit beside a date on first and second dates instead of across a table.  There are a couple places around here where you can get both side by side seating and a private table.

          …all I could add if you’re going for a younger (under 35), introverted type, you may want to ask them about their work to get a conversation going; that is, it may take two comments to get through the wall of social inexperience.

        11. Clare

          I’m a huge Hussey fan as well, mainly because he’s so open and authentic, and also because he seems to have a deep and nuanced understanding of human psychology.

           

          He also has a way of calming down dating situations that are potentially anxiety-producing.

           

          He’s very cute… but I’ve often found myself wondering what he’s like as a partner. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to date someone with such an intense understanding of dating and human nature. I hope it would be wonderful, but it may be intimidating.

      2. 4.1.2
        Nissa

        Sum Guy, to clarify, for me masculine energy is “doing” energy and female is “being” energy. I would argue that feminine energy IS inherently passive – and I say that as someone who spend years railing against it.

        Biologically, our bodies are more complex and mysterious, even to us. Try asking a woman why she’s crying, and see how often the answer is “I don’t know”. Our bodies do things in their own time, whether it’s bleeding, secreting hormones or giving birth. This engenders a passivity because so often there is nothing to be done about it, it will happen when it happens. Reproduction occurs when the man has an orgasm, even if the woman is completely passive. (I’m not recommending that, just making a case for the biology of it). The man is doing, and the woman is being receptive.

        I would also make the case of this being different but equal. Neither is better, both are needed. As a working woman in CA, that’s not socially informed – it’s counter to most current beliefs. Yes, neither should be judged or shamed for departure from this, but assuming the default until proven otherwise is more efficient.

        The asking for a date, planning and paying are all DOING behaviors, which puts them in the realm of the masculine. A woman doing the asking is therefore automatically stepping into masculine energy by doing. Feminine energy is being. Being responsive to the actions of the masculine is therefore the appropriate response. It’s not that a man is bad if he is not doing these things…but it does fall outside default behaviors. Therefore this paradigm has nothing to do with protecting one’s heart, or wanting there to be rules. This is the inherent energy of the behavior, which is separate from gender. Him not asking her to be exclusive may not equal a lack of confidence, but it IS more passive, and therefore not in masculine energy. Neither good nor bad. If a woman wants a man who is more likely to listen and to be sensitive, she might view that as  a positive sign. It truly depends on the individual. BUT, the more interested he is in a woman, the less likely he is to take the chance of his special girl being stolen by some other guy. The less interested he is, the greater risk he will take in her getting away. It’s not a yes/no, black/white. It’s a spectrum.

        Now, when I was younger I HATED this. It felt like I was stripped of my power to ‘make things happen’ in my own life. I asked out men, paid for dates and felt indifferent to the dictates of society. And…failed to achieve my desire. Most men reacted with distaste or fear when I asked them out. Some would blurt that they had a girlfriend. When they did say yes, it was generally assumed that I was an easy lay, since I was “so aggressive”.   I finally realized that this was less of a reaction to me, than it was to my acting in masculine energy.

        What I would say now is that your list of qualities is a good one, and that both parties are most likely to be happy if they utilize the default expression of those qualities. Men can ask for exclusivity without being labeled as beta; how could actively pursuing his desire make him less masculine? Women can be willing to have exclusivity when it is requested; how could it make her less of a woman to have that which she desires?

        1. Sum Guy

          Hi Nissa,

          i agree that men asking doesn’t make them beta (I don’t really buy into the whole alpha/beta thing, it’s too simplistic).  I also don’t think women asking makes them less feminine or men not asking makes them beta or less masculine

          i won’t argue with you on the energy you feel most comfortable as aligning with how you feel your sexuality and sex, and will agree with you that what you call masculine and feminine line up with US culture

           

          I also personally seem to have no problem meeting the masculine expectations of my culture but probably would in places where women are still officially second class citizens

        2. Selena

          Nissa,

          You explained the masculine/feminine energy  dynamic so well.  Kudos friend. 🙂

          @ Sum Guy

          In 2010, I followed Rory Raye’s blog for a few month’s. As someone who had never dated more than one person at a time – and didn’t want to date multiple men –  I found the idea of “circular dating” somewhat distasteful and exhausting to contemplate.   To be fair to RR though, she defined Cd’ing broadly: a woman could Cd old people, kids, anyone she came across in her life, she could Cd HERSELF.

          The point as I understood it at the time, was men are going to do what they want to do. The woman’s *job* was to evaluate their effort. Is one “stepping up” compared to others?  If one is stepping up is he the kind of partner that would be good for her?

          EMK makes similar points on this blog. He tells women they are the CEO’s of their love life. The men they date are interns  applying for the job of boyfriend. Potentially a partner.  Are they qualified for the position?

          To me, both EMK’s and RR ‘s work address a quote I came across many years ago:
          “Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”  – Maya Angelou
           

    2. 4.2
      kenley

      @Nissa

      The more I date and meet different men, the more I realize that sometimes it really is dangerous to think that all guys think alike and that all guys have read the dating playbook.  I can’t tell you how many men have said that they keep meeting women who DON’t want to be exclusive and DON’t want to be tied down…especially the younger people.  So, is it really fair to expect that this guys KNOWS that she wants to be exclusive.  The world really is changing and I think we have to interact with the individual in front of us who may or may not act and think the way we think they should.

      One trick I learned to make my interest explicit while still letting the  guy lead is to playfully say …if you ask me out, I’ll yes.   It works every time.  So, perhaps the LW just needs to make it known to the guy that she in fact wants to be exclusive.

      1. 4.2.1
        Nissa

        I would agree that women are saying this to men. However, it’s not exactly the truth. Most of the women I’ve seen saying this, are saying it to men because they are just not that into him. If the right guy came along, suddenly their desire to ‘just sow their oats’ or ‘keep it casual’ goes out the window. Or she is letting her baggage keep her afraid of even trying to have what she really wants, a long term exclusive relationship. I’ve watched this over and over with my co-workers. Even the ones that swear they want casual, when they find a special someone, they completely change and light up with excitement. The younger they are, the more willing they are to ‘experiment’ with random guys, but it’s more that they are filling time until their special someone arrives, rather than having non exclusivity as a desired lifestyle.

        1. Kenley

          Nissa.

          But isnt’ that the same case for many men– they don’t want to be exclusive until they find the woman they want to be exclusive with?

          More importantly, if women are telling men this even if it is not true, the men don’t know it isn’t really true.  So, if enough women tell them that, then they no longer assume that every women wants exclusivity.   I actually don’t think that is bad to treat every date as a individual human being with specific and potentially unique desires rather than assuming all women want the same thing or all men want them same thing.  But, I get the feeling that the only other commenter that shares this view is Sum Guy, but that’s ok.

           

        2. Emily, the original

          Nissa,

          I would agree that women are saying this to men. However, it’s not exactly the truth. Most of the women I’ve seen saying this, are saying it to men because they are just not that into him. If the right guy came along, suddenly their desire to ‘just sow their oats’ or ‘keep it casual’ goes out the window.

          I agree with you on this. “I don’t want a relationship right now” is usually code for “I don’t want a relationship with you.” If the right guy shows up, her story will probably change.

        3. Nissa

          Kenley, think of it this way. I’m an individual human being, but I still trend to the mean in most things. The things about me that don’t trend toward the mean, I almost always point out in the first few dates so that my date can figure out if he wants that for himself. Most of the men I met in my 20’s had no interest in exclusivity because LTR’s and marriage were distant IN THEIR MINDS, even if they met a women who would fit criteria for ‘marriage material’. It had little to do with who they were dating, they just had other priorities. But assuming the default until one is told otherwise is not demeaning. It’s accepting that we aren’t mind readers, and that most people will show or tell you their unique desires. It’s recognizing that most people will see their unique features as a positive, so they will almost always mention that about themselves. Men in particular will mention things about themselves they see as positive, in hopes of impressing you. If he likes falconry, World of Warcraft, spelunking, etc most of the time he will say so. Things they hate tend to come up also – kids, intruding families, bad credit or Democrats. So the things they don’t mention tend to be the ones that fall to the mean.

        4. Clare

          Kenley,

           

          I agree with you as well. I wrote at length about this in the comments on another one of Evan’s recent blog posts – how a person not wanting an exclusive relationship does not necessarily mean he (or she) doesn’t want an exclusive relationship with that person. I strongly disagree with the oft-expressed idea on this blog that a commitment-phobic guy will just “snap out of it” when he meets the “right” woman. For what it’s worth, Matthew Hussey (hunkazoid himself) allows for a range of possibilities why a guy might not be ready for a relationship. In fact, I feel a white-hot rage every time I hear these words “he’s just not that into you”… as if it explains the full gamut of human emotions and reasons. I think Greg Behrendt & Co. have done women a major disservice.

           

          I happen to think it has a lot more to do with timing. Sure, commitment-phobic guys are just as prone as anyone else to have their preferences and to be into certain people and not into others. But I think when you see a consistent behavior being expressed over a period of time by the same person, it has a lot less to do with the person they’re dating than it does with them. I have just seen this in the guys I’ve known over my life over and over again. For a certain period of their lives, they didn’t want to be tied down, and it wouldn’t have mattered who came along during that time. When they finally decided they wanted to commit, they found someone appropriate to do it with. From what I can tell, they do not usually feel a unique and overwhelming passion for this person – he loves her yes, but it’s more a case of, he finally wanted marriage and found someone he thought would make him happy enough.

           

          Some guys never “snap out of” the commitment-phobic phase, no matter who the woman is. And this renders the whole HJNTIY argument invalid. One notable example I know of is a guy who is 39, never been married, never had a relationship which lasted longer than a year – and even those have been few. He cycles through women quickly and without much investment. He’s good looking and wealthy, and doesn’t have too much trouble attracting women. He doesn’t want to commit though. He has a big house, which he enjoys having to himself most of the time. He’s an introvert who values time alone over almost anything. He also enjoys regular, long gaming sessions when the mood takes him and doesn’t want a woman telling him  he can’t. He basically just wants a relationship for regular company and sex, and the woman should piss off when he’s tired of her. Unsurprisingly, he has a few guy friends who are exactly the same way. I have observed him over knowing him for several years, and I am absolutely convinced that his commitment-phobic behavior has nothing to do with not having met the right woman. Nor do I think he would know the right woman if she came and thumped him over the head with a rubber mallet.

           

          Again, I think for many men and women, commitment is as much a function of where they are in their lives as it is of the person they’re dating, possibly even more so.

           

          Again, I happen to believe we are individuals, and not rules. Trends and generalizations and stereotypes have their place, they can be valuable. But you have to be willing to temper them and even throw them out the window based on the person in front of you.

      2. 4.2.2
        Sum Guy

        hi Kenley

        that is a great way to do it, novthreatening to the guys who need to drive and assuring to others

        i’m not surprised about different generational expectations re exclusivity, there are likely geographical and socio-economic ones as well

    3. 4.3
      Selena

      From the letter:

      “We have really, really nice hook-ups but no sex yet (it’s been about 2.5 months) because he knows I only do that with men I’m committed to and he isn’t there (yet?).”

      She has told him she doesn’t have sex without exclusivity. He is apparently fine with that. I doubt another “talk” about it would change anything.

      1. 4.3.1
        Kenley

        Ah, I missed that…so, never mind.

      2. 4.3.2
        Sum Guy

        Missed that, so it sounds like something out of an Emily Dickerson novel, attractive man that is busy who shows up from time to time after his business travels, he is interested but can’t commit yet.

        He respects her chastity but they do get naughty a bit ( no idea how far hook-up means these days).   But will he find a more suitable wife?   He must not know as he has not sworn his exclusivity to her.

         

        What seems so odd, yet honest to me.  He did not lie to her it seems, which would be easy to do.   I’m sure she knows this, so will the next guy not be OK with just hooking up and lie to her?

         

        Can she get her guy to honestly commit to exclusivity if they have sex?

  5. 5
    Lisa

    I agree there are a few red flags here with him disappearing and her being afraid to bring up the idea of commitment 2 1/2 months in.  That being said, while no longer single I agree with Evan’s advice in principle, but in reality someone who holds out for commitment until they have sex is going to be not just sex starved but single.  Unfortunately in this age of modern dating sex is expected within the first 3 dates.   How Evan says men look for sex and find love, that is totally true.   In the past only the girls that were seen as “bad girls” gave it up in three dates.  So men would indeed wait to have sex with women because well most women held out and so since most women held out, they had no choice.   The women that gave it up too soon were seen as slutty.  Now I don’t agree with anyone being called slutty, but the whole women’s liberation means that the majority of women do give it up in three dates.   So if you are holding out, then some other girl that’s not will move into your spot.  Most people doing online dating have at least 3 other options waiting for them.  So it’s a catch 22 for women.  You will never get to the relationship stage if you don’t give it up.  You can believe that the right man will wait but that’s just not realistic.  And most men on online dating will tell you whatever you want to hear to get sex, sure I will be your boyfriend, right okay.  So waiting longer tends to show they are more committed and truly mean they will be your boyfriend.  But waiting too long means you will be totally out of the game.   To put it bluntly women need to have some casual sex to get a relationship.   It sucks but is how things are these days.

    1. 5.1
      Sum Guy

      Hi Lisa,

      What you say has the ring of truth.  However, when you meet that person you feel that 9 or 10 compatibility with, like they may have been your best friend your entire life, you have so much fun with them you can wait for sex.  All I need to know or feel is I’m not being used or there is something I should worry about.  Then again, when you feel that level of compatibility (not just chemistry!) it’s really not a question.

      For me that level of compatibility is so, so rare, I’m willing to risk a lot to not mews it up.   I’m lucky to fairly recently, hopefully, fingers crossed, found it again…after 30 years.  If she had said let’s wait 6 months for sex I would have had no problem with it.  I think you can tell when although our chemistry is through the roof, especially when we have limited time, I want to spend just as much time with her out of bed as in…more in fact.

      So if you are swinging for the compatibility fence (9 or 10) and the guy knows himself (a big IF though), I believe Evan’s advice works.  It still works in other situations as long as you are up-front about building compatibility first and allay his fears of being used. or that you might be too prudish for him, etc.

      1. 5.1.1
        Sum Guy

        not mess it up, instead of mews it up

        I’d be totally into it if she was into falconry

        1. Dana

          Gold star.

      2. 5.1.2
        Lisa

        I am glad to hear that, but you are in the minority.

    2. 5.2
      Yet Another Guy

      @Lisa

      In the past only the girls that were seen as “bad girls” gave it up in three dates.

      I do not know your age, but I recall that the three-date rule came into vogue in the early eighties.  It was practiced by trailing-edge Boomers (a.k.a. Generation Jones).  It had nothing to do with bad girls.  It had everything to do with the avoidance of slut-shaming and establishing a point where a couple became exclusive.  The third date was the earliest a woman could have sex with a man without fear of being called a slut (it was also widely accepted that if sex did not happen by or on third date, it was never going to happen).  The three-date rule is still practiced by people my age, which is why I usually give most women no more than two dates.  It is still assumed by many women my age that sex will occur on the third date, and that sex signals exclusivity.

      How does dating today differ from dating in the eighties?  Well, men and women usually only dated one person at a time in the eighties.  There were no man or women queues.  If a couple made it to the third date, they usually became exclusive and attempted to see where the relationship would go.   Today, we have the paradox of choice.  Men were not dealing with the candy store known as online dating in the eighties.  Online dating and hook-up sites are killing a man’s desire to commit in ways that most men could not have fathomed in the eighties.  Why? Because men can take a piece of candy off of the shelf, lick it, and place it back up on the shelf.  There is no need to buy the piece of candy.  If a man is part of the 20% of men that 80% of the women on dating sites seek, the incentive to keep licking different pieces of candy can be intoxicating and overwhelming.  I dated over 50 women in one year, and I was still legally married to another woman (i.e., I was separated).  I see the paradox of choice when it comes to dating as a curse that keeps men believing that Ms. Right is just one more date away.  I have passed on women that I would have killed to date when I was younger.  Why? Because I knew that another date was just one click away.

      1. 5.2.1
        Malika

        I relate to your description of the shift in dating patterns and the paradox of choice. It used to be that you were lucky if you met 1-2 guys a year you found vaguely attractive, now we have great-on-paper dates at our fingertips whenever we log onto Okc. I would have killed for the amount and quality of men i get to date now as compared to even the early noughties. Which makes it far harder to settle down, especially as i don’t want kids and therefore no deadlines to meet.

      2. 5.2.2
        Lisa

        I am 40 so I did not date in the 80s, the 90s and early 2000s, but I am from a fairly rural area, things move slow :).  That being said in college I do not remember any “good girls” sleeping with men sooner than a few months in.  The ones who did were seen as low quality by men.  Note I am not saying I thought they were low quality, not at all, just that that’s how they were perceived.   I totally agree with the second part of your post though, spot on.  Too many choices.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Lisa

          You must have grown up in a fairly conservative area.  That kind of mindset did not exist post-high school where I grew up. Hooking up as it is practiced today is different than the three-date rule.  It was rare for a person to have multiple sexual partners at the same time like we see today.

        2. Alex

          @Lisa

          Something I’ve noticed is that on sites where you have to pay (even just a few dollars a month) about 90% of guys are seriously looking for a relationship. Since I switched to paid sites and stopped using tinder/bumble I’ve never once had a date who was only interested in hookups.

  6. 6
    Stacy

    I will rephrase what Emily said and say, 2 1/2 months and no committment. For me, that is strange. I will not be dating a man for almost 3 months who never even brings up the idea of being committed.  No way. I will automatically (rightfully) assume you’re not that into me. People who are ‘available’ are only gun shy about relationships when they haven’t met the person they wanna be with yet.

    1. 6.1
      Nissa

      Agreed. Most men know, even if they don’t verbalize it. If he’s not locking you down, he’s put you on the bench.

      1. 6.1.1
        Stacy

        I hope you don’t mind me stealing this from you….’If he’s not locking you down, he’s putting you on the bench’.

        BOOM!

        1. Nissa

          It’s yours 🙂

    2. 6.2
      Emily, the original

      Stacy,

      People who are ‘available’ are only gun shy about relationships when they haven’t met the person they wanna be with yet.

      Yes. Only 5 to 6 dates in 2.5 months and no mention of being exclusive or asking her if she’s dating other people, etc. The magical question in all of these situations is: What is the guy doing? Answer: Not enough. 2 1/2 months is enough time to determine if he wants to see her exclusively and see where things could go.

      1. 6.2.1
        Sum Guy

        Emily,

        Here is another view of this “Only 5 to 6 dates in 2.5 months and no mention of being exclusive or asking her if she’s dating other people, etc.

        it may not be what is going on, but is plausible if you assume the questioner’s own feelings may color the facts somewhat (ASIDE: my other posts are about ways to get to what is going on)

         

        The time, 2.5 months, may be an artifact of their lifestyles, hence my constantly mentioning living in NYC in your 30s.  That alone may preclude a LTR unless they change it.  Yet that may not be an unusual time period to have 5-6 dates over.

         

        5-6 dates is key for what he is willing to ask her.  Assume for a second he does really like her, but is addressing his own insecurities as well.  They are 5-6 dates in with no sex, and she doesn’t really call him when he gets busy.  He may be getting advice she’s not really into him.

         

        In that case, he’s getting told don’t ask her if she is dating anyone else or to be exclusive.  I mean really pretty presumptuous you are not even sleeping with her; what are you doing imposing some sexual mores on her, you don’t own her dude, she’s not your girlfriend.   You’ll come off as needy, desperate, chauvinistic and very beta.  Doing that will just scare her away.  A real “alpha male” does not ask such questions he is secure that she will choose him; and NYC women only want “alpha males,” so no vulnerability no matter how much you want to.

         

        At some point someone has to take a chance in these things and just ask, because it hasn’t been him doesn’t mean he isn’t thinking it.

         

        1. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          and she doesn’t really call him when he gets busy.  He may be getting advice she’s not really into him.

          Possibly, but from what little I know, a guy doesn’t take that into account. If he really likes her, he’s going to let her know,  in no uncertain terms, regardless of what she’s doing.

           

          You’ll come off as needy, desperate, chauvinistic and very beta.  Doing that will just scare her away.  A real “alpha male” does not ask such questions he is secure that she will choose him; and NYC women only want “alpha males,” so no vulnerability no matter how much you want to.

          But wouldn’t an alpha male go in and grab what he wanted — whether it as sex or a relationship or both? Would there be this much flim flam going on? I have a feeling (and maybe I’m wrong) this guy is being intentionally obtuse about what he wants so he can ride these “hot and heavy” sessions out until he finds someone he likes better.

           

           

          At some point someone has to take a chance in these things and just ask, because it hasn’t been him doesn’t mean he isn’t thinking it.

          With this I do agree. Sometimes it feels like a pissing contest to determine who can show they care the least.

           

        2. Sum Guy

          Hi Emily,

          If I was to bet I agree he is being intentionally obtuse

           

          However on this:

          (I said) and she doesn’t really call him when he gets busy.  He may be getting advice she’s not really into him.

          Possibly, but from what little I know, a guy doesn’t take that into account. If he really likes her, he’s going to let her know,  in no uncertain terms, regardless of what she’s doing.”

           

          That is certainly not my experience, although I do know when guys talk we would say, are you sure? why don’t you ask her or let her know, and they will often say no.   It’s fear of rejection, insecurity, maybe pride, a reserved nature, a lot of stuff wrapped into one.   Guy’s have hearts too and don’t want to put them out there if they feel ambivalence or holding back from women.  It’s not just some “beta” thing.

           

          A good segue into this:

          But wouldn’t an alpha male go in and grab what he wanted — whether it as sex or a relationship or both? Would there be this much flim flam going on?.

          I could go on and on about stuff like this, :).  I think the whole “alpha” idea is overwrought and in most cases BS.   I mostly see the term alpha being used by men to cover being an a**hole and by women to refer to some romance novel ideal, such as Jamie Fraser.  In short, there may be something to a leader type personality which is confident and assertive, but it is used as a caricature, more to refer to a**hole type leaders.

          Most aggressive guys who believe they are “alpha” about go in and grab want they want, are not going to take no for an answer with sex.  Courting and letting her know are “beta” behaviors in the manosphere.    The go an get is advice in the manosphere is reserved for pick-ups, ONS, then it is even laughable.

          Lastly, though, this guy may not be a natural PUA alpha a**hole as I call it.  The whole PUA / manosphere shtick, if you buy into it, is how to mimic what they believe to be “alpha” behavior thinking that makes you “alpha,” which is ridiculous as if there is such a thing as “alpha” well then acting like isn’t going to make you “alpha” because you are just acting.  SO they follow all sorts of male version of hard to get, testing, negging and other BS.   I think NYC is one of the original epicenters of this as PUA/game is all about the bar/club/city scene.

           

          I have a feeling (and maybe I’m wrong) this guy is being intentionally obtuse about what he wants so he can ride these “hot and heavy” sessions out until he finds someone he likes better.”

          Most likely.  But it is the hot n heavy scenes that make me wonder.  A hot n heavy scene a little more than once every two weeks.   What makes a guy keep coming back for that?   Would think it would lead to extreme physical “frustration” if he was just into sex or had other options; unless….he might like her as her.  I mean, he hasn’t found anyone else yet in the last month or so?

          That alone makes me think he is not some lady’s man.  He may be clueless and not sure what he wants, but he seems to find her interesting enough to keep seeing her as I don’t think hot n heavy is enough to keep him coming back if he is looking for a casual sexual relationship.  Or maybe she is one of his irons in the fire.

        3. kenley

          Sum Guy,

          I really liked your alternative view of what might be happening with his guy.  It’s refreshing to consider there isn’t just one way a man might behave.

          But the biggest thing that frustrates me is why there is such a big fear of communicating with people.  So much overthinking,  time-wasted, and heartache could be avoided if we would just talk.  I have taken a vow to ask questions and not guess at intensions or ask 100 other people what the guy means instead of asking the guy himself.

        4. Emily, the original

          Hi Sum Guy,

          That is certainly not my experience, although I do know when guys talk we would say, are you sure? why don’t you ask her or let her know, and they will often say no.   It’s fear of rejection, insecurity, maybe pride, a reserved nature, a lot of stuff wrapped into one.   Guy’s have hearts too and don’t want to put them out there if they feel ambivalence or holding back from women.  It’s not just some “beta” thing.

          It has been my experience (and posters have written about it on this blog) there isn’t a lot of nuance with this stuff. If a man really likes you, he comes at you like a freight train. Oftentimes, he’s not all that aware of what the women is feeling. He’s too mired in his own feelings. (I’m not knocking it; it’s happened to me.) Even if he he is holding back from revealing his feelings, he would still try to see her more and be in more contact with her. That is the “tell,” so to speak.

          Most likely.  But it is the hot n heavy scenes that make me wonder.  A hot n heavy scene a little more than once every two weeks.   What makes a guy keep coming back for that?   Would think it would lead to extreme physical “frustration” if he was just into sex or had other options; unless….he might like her as her.  I mean, he hasn’t found anyone else yet in the last month or so? … That alone makes me think he is not some ladies’ man.

          That’s just it. He keeps coming back because he doesn’t have other options. He very well may not be a player but he’s enough of one to keep her on the bench.

           

           

        5. Emily, the original

          Hi Sum Guy,

          In reading over the other responses, one thing struck me: The reasons why don’t matter. He could be into her and not good at showing it; he could be playing her. It doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that he’s not stepping up and the situation is not moving forward into a relationship, which is what she wants. Also, let’s just say for the sake of argument that he does like her. His flim flam approach doesn’t bode well for the future. Is she going to have to do everything?

        6. Sum Guy

          Hi Kenley

          I know people should just talk, but if we did there would be little need for dating advice. 🙂   The social dance we perform to not come on too strong or too weak, to avoid rejection, is not very conducive to just talking.

           

          Hi Emily,

          I’m surprised about the men coming on as freight trains thing.  Yes men do it.   I’ve never heard it considered positive, so men try to avoid it.  It’s basically coming on too strong and can seem desperate, creepy, overbearing, etc.

           

          It is a fine line, you come on too strong and you freak women out as obsessive, not enough and they wonder about your emotional availability.

        7. Emily, the original

          Sum Guy,

          I’m surprised about the men coming on as freight trains thing.  Yes men do it.   I’ve never heard it considered positive, so men try to avoid it.  It’s basically coming on too strong and can seem desperate, creepy, overbearing, etc. It is a fine line, you come on too strong and you freak women out as obsessive, not enough and they wonder about your emotional availability.

          I agree with all your points here, but she’s been seeing this guy for 2 1/2 months. There shouldn’t be this level of ambiguity. Maybe “freight train” was the wrong descriptor, but a man who really likes a woman and wants something from her makes that clear as the relationship progresses. Maybe not in the first week or two … but certainly after 2 1/2 months. If she’s wondering … she has her answer. (And it sucks to come to terms with that.)

  7. 7
    Michelle H.

    Right on, Evan.  I’m proud of how far I’ve come with your advice;  Thank you.

  8. 8
    Tom10

    @ Evan
    You should have a big “HJNTIY” button you can just hit in reply to so many of your letters; save you some time. Lol.
     
    I also love the way you addressed the letter-writer; “Dear Sex”. ha
     
    (P.S. Sum Guy; about your comment the other day on paragraph spacing; you need to double-space or else paste in your comment for it to appear correctly 😉 ).

    1. 8.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Tom10,

      “You should have a big “HJNTIY” button you can just hit. . .”

      As always you are both correct and succinct.

      The LW needs to tell this guy, “It’s been nice knowing you, but we clearly want different things.  I wish you the best!”  Then she should get her OLD profile back up if she took it down, and make plans to go out and mingle at a place where single men will be.

  9. 9
    Callie

    I feel I should point out this person has given us two separate points of fact: 2.5 months – which sounds indeed like a long enough time to assess commitment and thus feels strange that after all that time he still is nervous to do it – and also 5 to 6 dates. I’m not 100% sure if the LW is equating her relationship as 5 -6 dates when asking Evan if it’s okay to have sex with someone at that stage or not, but I think it’s relatively safe to assume she is otherwise where on earth did that specific number come from?

    With that in mind it sounds like she’s been dating someone for 2.5 months only seeing them every other week or something. Which then really makes the relationship seem even less committed than 5 – 6 dates say over the course of one to three weeks.

    Therefore I think quite frankly she has her answer. If she is truly seeing this guy so infrequently, in situations where she is she’s getting hot and heavy, she’s scared to bring up commitment and he isn’t “there” (note also the “yet?” she adds implying he’s not even indicated if he’ll ever be there, she’s just hoping he might be) I don’t think this guy is interested in commitment and she should move on. Now, that being said, if she really wants sex, this guy might be a good guy to have sex with and then move on from because she knows him, she knows there’s chemistry and she could just take advantage of that, get her rocks off, scratch that proverbial itch and then go in search of the next guy without the overwhelming sex desire clouding her decision making. But since that’s not what she says she wants . . . yeah I think it’s time to end this . . .  whatever it is.

    1. 9.1
      Sum Guy

      Callie,

      Well said.  5-6 dates over two-months may not be so odd in NYC, but certainly too few IMHO for a guy to wonder what is up on the sex front, or to think it must be time.

      I bring up the NYC thing because I think it has a specific context, not that I live there but from what I have heard.  It’s a place that defines rat-race to me; especially for people in their 30s.

      1. 9.1.1
        Callie

        It’s definitely not odd at all, as a big city dweller I can totally see how that could happen. But it does make me wonder how someone else who lives in a big city can possibly think that so many dates portioned out over such a long time could possibly equal any kind of committed relationship.

        This is part of the problem with the big city casual dating approach. There’s so much to do, so much that fills your time, everything is crazy hectic, so scheduling time to date falls down the list of priorities. Evan has written a lot about that in fact. That you have to make it a priority to date. That’s not happening here. No idea who’s to blame, if it’s one of the sides or both. But commitment isn’t going to come out of this if it is a continued pattern. And considering his lack of wanting to even address the issue, I don’t think it’s happening at all.

        1. Sum Guy

          Callie @ 9.1.1

          Exactly!  Hence my recommendation for a “date night” one night of the week you keep open for each other, and the frequent (every other day) communication.  That’s a commitment in a way, but also allows you to plan about a busy life.

          If a guy is really into you, as you, he’ll do that, he will want to do that.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Callie and Sum Guy,

          5 to 6 dates over a 12-13 week period?  That’s one date every other week.  I’ve been a young busy single with an active city life and if I was really into someone, I made time.  Conversely if a guy was in to me, he made time for me, typically with the time spent together increasing over time.  This was true for both my men and women friends.  When they met someone and it turned into an LTR, by the time they were 2 1/2 months into it, they were exclusive, seeing each other a 2-3 days a week and talking on the phone and texting every day.  And they had definitely had sex by then.

          Someone who claims they want a serious relationship, but can’t find time to see you more than twice a month is either lying to themselves or does not want a relationship with you.  Does that make them a bad person?  No, maybe a little confused as to whether they really want a relationship at all.  But there will be lovely people out there who are not compatible with you.  Wish them well and send them on their way.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Sorry, over a 10-11 week period.

        4. Emily, the original

          GowiththeFlow,

          5 to 6 dates over a 12-13 week period?  That’s one date every other week.  I’ve been a young busy single with an active city life and if I was really into someone, I made time.  Conversely if a guy was in to me, he made time for me, typically with the time spent together increasing over time.  This was true for both my men and women friends.  When they met someone and it turned into an LTR, by the time they were 2 1/2 months into it, they were exclusive, seeing each other a 2-3 days a week and talking on the phone and texting every day.  And they had definitely had sex by then.

          You hit the nail on the head. After 2 1/2 months, their interactions should have progressed into something.

        5. Callie

          GWTF – Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but there was something in the wording of your reply which implied it was a counter point to what I had said, and I just wanted to make sure I was clear (because I’m not always 🙂 ) I totally 100% agree with you.

          My point about how other things can get in the way of dating in the big city was that if you don’t put in the effort to make dating a priority it can turn into this kind of situation. You made time which demonstrates it is totally possible to do in the city (as have I in fact). I didn’t mean to suggest that’s just life in the big city and somehow that that was okay (I mean it is okay if that’s what you want but the LW clearly doesn’t want this). I meant that while I totally get how these sorts of every other week dating things can end up happening, it doesn’t make it a relationship and that if they want one they need to switch their priorities.

          Which is also essentially what you are saying. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, but yes to everything you said, 100%.

  10. 10
    Clare

    I don’t necessarily agree with those who say HJNTIY and that this guy will magically become ready for a relationship when he meets the person he does like enough… simply because I’ve met a number of guys who wouldn’t be able to fully commit even if a woman who was a Victoria’s Secret model, a French chef and the ultimate cool girl all rolled into one walked into their lives. I know these guys – they cycle through endless women and find a reason to disqualify each of them or self-sabotage the relationship so that it ends prematurely. Their problem is not with the women – it’s with the idea of relationship itself. I’m not saying the LW’s guy is necessarily one of these, but it’s a possibility.

     

    Some guys just are gun shy about getting into a serious relationship and what that means… and if the LW’s guy senses that this is what she wants (even if she hasn’t said so specifically) it will cause him to pull back even more if he realises that he can’t give it. I think, on some level, she knows this, which is why she’s apprehensive about bringing up the relationship talk. But she’s wrong in thinking that her either bringing up the relationship talk, or not bringing it up, or sleeping with him, or not sleeping with him, will make any difference. I’ve slept with guys early on who have ended up being devoted, commitment-oriented boyfriends. And some guys whom I’ve made wait for sex turned out not to be relationship material. If a guy wants a relationship and wants to be with you, he will be. The point is, you cannot control his end of things – you can only control your own. You should have sex when you feel comfortable having sex, and you should put off sex if you feel that’s what you need to do to protect yourself, and not to secure any kind of outcome with him. And you should not put off having a discussion with him about what the two of you are doing and what he is ready for and able to do because you’re afraid you’re not going to like the answer.

     

    Now, granted, in the current situation, I think the LW’s guy has given her more than enough information for her to know where he is at. The fact that they’ve only got together 5 or 6 times in nearly 3 months, the fact that these have been “hook ups” (not dates?), the fact that she seems to have got the impression he is “gun shy,” and the fact that he has not brought up any kind of relationship talk, means that they are currently in no man’s land and there is no sign of coming out of it. They are casual. It’s completely up to her whether she wants to sleep with him and relieve some of her sexual frustration – she should just know that it won’t change anything one way or the other. It won’t make him more ready, and it won’t push him further away than he was ultimately going to drift anyway. However, considering how much she likes him, it is likely to make her anxious and insecure, and she may well feel hurt and used if he ultimately doesn’t make things official, which seems likely. My advice would be for her to scratch her sexual itch in a way that is not emotionally harmful to her. Unfortunately it seems as if there is no win here unless she can dial back her feelings and expectations towards this man. If it were me, I’d pull back from him a bit and start putting my attention elsewhere, either looking for other guys or filling my life up with other things I enjoyed, or both. If this guy of hers comes around, it will be a bonus, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Someone one is too scared to even bring up the subject of relationship with is likely someone who is quite emotionally unavailable.

    1. 10.1
      Stacy

      Clare

      You said, ‘simply because I’ve met a number of guys who wouldn’t be able to fully commit even if a woman who was a Victoria’s Secret model, a French chef and the ultimate cool girl all rolled into one walked into their lives. I know these guys – they cycle through endless women and find a reason to disqualify each of them or self-sabotage the relationship so that it ends prematurely….’

      Well then, a man like that is not available and as a woman looking for a serious and healthy relationship, she shouldn’t be dating him anyway.  A man is only gun shy at 3 months when you’re not doing it for him period – whether you dress it up as, ‘he’s not ready because he cycles through women,’ or  whatever way it’s described. I have known men who cycled through women (George Clooney type) until they met the right one they think worthy of committing to.

      1. 10.1.1
        Clare

        Stacy,

         

        “Well then, a man like that is not available and as a woman looking for a serious and healthy relationship, she shouldn’t be dating him anyway.”

         

        I agree completely, and pretty sure I said that.

         

        You also said:

        “I have known men who cycled through women (George Clooney type) until they met the right one they think worthy of committing to.”

         

        This is where I disagree with you, and take issue with the whole HJNTIY philosophy. I would argue that such a man eventually decides that being in a serious relationship and committing is better for his life than being alone or having endless casual relationships, and that it has very little to do with the woman he met being the ultimate catch. I think it’s more a case of, these men eventually mature and talk themselves into commitment. Up till then, they simply weren’t ready, and it wouldn’t matter who came along. The rightness or otherwise of the woman in question is only half the equation – he is the other half. You know the saying, there is none so blind as he who will not see? I think it’s a little like that. If a person is not ready, for whatever reason, they will be blind to the virtues of the person in front of them, and likewise they will tend to overvalue people who are not suitable or not available because it lets them out of proper commitment. When such a person finally does become ready for a committed and settled life, they see people through a different lens.

        1. Malika

          Hi Clare:

          i like your nuanced take on the George Clooney types. Some people need to grow and have lots of life experiences before they settle down. There is nothing wrong with that, i just think that if you date someone and it becomes clear your date is not ready, it’s in your best interests to cut it off and date men who are potentially going to want to settle down with you, and appreciate you fully.

          George Clooney’s now-wife reportedly needed a lot of persuading to go on the first date with him, which must have added to the fire (bet he hadn’t experienced that reaction from an available woman for a very long time!). If he’d met her just a couple of years before, she probably wouldn’t even had been on his radar for very long, as he seemed only interested in casual relationships that took little effort at the time.

        2. Clare

          Malika,

           

          You said it.

           

          I particularly agree with this part “i just think that if you date someone and it becomes clear your date is not ready, it’s in your best interests to cut it off and date men who are potentially going to want to settle down with you, and appreciate you fully.”

           

          This is where I have always disagreed with the HJNTIY school of thought, and Stacy’s delightful use of the words “worthy of committing to” illustrates my issue with it perfectly. So, the fact that George Clooney eventually decided to commit to Amal Alamuddin, does that make the other women he didn’t commit to not worthy? Does that make the men who eventually decided to commit to those women fools? No, and no. It’s about fit, and even more importantly, it’s about timing. That’s why I think looking at dating from the point of view of whether or not he is “into” you or not is completely missing the boat.

           

          We shouldn’t be asking ourselves whether or not the guy is “into” us (what, are we in high school?). We should be asking ourselves if we want the same things. Being “into” one another is a very small part of it; after all, any drunken fellow who spies a pretty girl at the bar and asks her out can be said to be “into” her. But what kind of yardstick is that for a successful relationship? We’ve all had relationships where we both seemed really “into” each other, but the relationship fizzled for compatibility reasons or because of where we were in our lives. Similarly, I think many of us know of people whom we might consider very high quality individuals who’ve spent years turning people down for relationships only to wind up committing to someone quite average because they finally decide it’s time to settle down. The whole being “into” someone argument is shaky at best. It’s about compatibility and wanting the same things out of life. Physical attraction and a basic level of chemistry is a given, but the bar for that is not nearly as high as some people seem to think it is, and drumming it into women’s heads that “he’s just not that into you” is honestly, in my opinion, just asking to give women complexes about what they could have done or been to make the guy “more into” them. Which, as I’ve already said, is so often irrelevant. Most likely, they simply didn’t want the same things at that particular time in their lives.

        3. Malika

          For men like George Clooney who have a very busy career and an endless option of women to date, choosing the right woman and finding the time to really invest in the relationship is very challenging indeed. A luxury challenge, but a challenge nonetheless. He has the rich man’s version of our paradox of choice when we are online dating. There is an endless stream of new companions, who is the right woman to settle down with? I admired the fact that he didn’t marry someone just to keep up appearances, and that he did what was right for him (and the ladies knew very well what they were getting into).

          When he finally decided to settle down with his now-wife much was made in the press on how she was accomplished and the others were ‘just’ waitresses and minor celebrities. As if none of them were good enough to settle down with, because they didn’t have swish credentials. I disliked this take greatly. We are more than our degrees and job titles, and they are not what will make us a good partner to our other half.

  11. 11
    Adrian

    Hi Emily, Malika, Stacy, Lisa, and Sum Guy

     

     

    Sum Guy,

    I would just say be careful what you define as a Good Man. The commenter Chance once got into a long and heated debate with many of the female commentors and even Evan over this. I have a no debating rule that I set for myself on this blog so I did not step in to support him (sorry Chance).

    His point (which I completely agree with) is that you can not put what is a good or virtuous man into a box. A man can be a good man or a good boyfriend and still do things that a particular woman doesn’t see as good because it is not what she wants a boyfriend to do.

    Ultimately I personally think it is more about having common goals and wanting the same things not about if he is good or bad.

     

    Emily & Stacy,

    Emily we have had the conversation about women making men wait longer than 2 months numerable times and you never believe women actually do this; and now after hearing it from a woman (the letter writer) you still don’t believe it happens without there being something wrong.

    So instead of rehashing an old conversation I will instead ask what is your and Stacy’s opinion on the advice like Steve Harvey’s 90 days and others who advise women to wait long periods of time to test a man?

    Both of you “seem” to believe-though I could be wrong- that a women making a man wait 3 months or longer is indication of an issue, but why don’t you see it as a way that many women test men? Is it because you don’t believe that women test men? Is it because you don’t think a man and a woman would wait so long  if they were both really into each other (I am not talking about the letter writer’s guy but the subject of waiting)? Is it because you and your circle of friends don’t do it and therefore you don’t believe any woman would do it? Is it because you feel that testing a man is something that only young, immature, or insecure women do? If the answer to the last question is yes then what separates a woman who takes advice (like making a man wait) from a woman who is just immature or insecure?

    Anyway I was just curious because whenever a guy mentions women making them wait long periods of time you always shrug it off.

     

    Lisa,

    I do not completely agree with you. I think a woman can hold out for sex for long (definitions of long vary) periods of time and still get a quality man. It sounds shallow but the higher quality the woman is-in relation to the man- the more bargaining power she has to set the terms of the relationship.

    I have heard many women and even seen a Ted-Talk where supposedly even science advised women to look better than their boyfriends/husbands to have happier relationships. Basically the more beautiful the woman, the more willing a man will be to wait and still court, be faithful, and commit. I have personally only heard of women having problems with a guy leaving if she makes him wait too long if he is of equal or higher attraction compared to hers.

    And of course it should go without saying that like Evan, I don’t think any of the authors of “getting a guy who a woman is more attractive than” were  saying a woman should date guys they do not find attractive at all; they were just saying get a guy who is she is more attractive than.

     

    Malika,

    Your post inspired a few questions within me. (^_^)

    Are women like men when it comes to long periods without sex and choosing a mate?

    I have noticed that for many men the longer he goes without sex the less picky he is in choosing a potential girlfriend. Now I do NOT agree with Yet Another Guy when he says that ALL men will have sex with any women regardless of how unattractive he finds her. I personally think most men with options will not just date or have sex with anything (and yes guys with options can still have trouble finding a girlfriend for various reasons) but at the same time if he has been single for a long time he will approach and go out with women whom he normally would not even consider…

    Now to clarify this does not mean women who he finds unattractive. I am just speaking about women who may not be as attractive as he is use to dating but he still finds her physically attractive. I personally believe that it is very rare for a man to date long-term a woman he has NO attraction for-regardless of how much sex he is getting from her.

    Anyway is it the same for women? How much does the desire for sex influence a woman’s actions when it comes to seeking and choosing a man? Again I am only talking about relationships not friends with benefits or one night stands.

    The second question is just about your opinion on the subject of female friends (since you mentioned him speaking about other women). If you are still in the first few weeks of courting but not committed stage of the relationship what are the rules when it comes to mentioning other women?

    I ask because I know for myself that most of my co-workers are women and since I am new to this city I don’t have friends here yet therefore any story about my day or whatever that I would tell to a potential girlfriend would all involve me and a another women. Would a woman get upset if I said that Tiffany always comes to my office to talk to me though it is really just an excuse to eat the fresh pastries I buy every morning or should I just say my co-worker loves to talk to me so they can eat my snacks?

    Since I am not really a jealous person I don’t understand why people get upset with the mentioning of the opposite sex in conversations; especially when the person telling the story has not mentioned being attracted to them or some kind of mutual flirting. Always making sure that I leave out the name because it tells the sex of the other person in my story seems like a lot of work.

    However it seems like most people advise not mentioning other women to a new girl even if it is an innocent conversation. And I was told that even if it is a story about getting help with something from my sister I have to make sure I mention that she is my SISTER regardless of how innocent the story is…

    What are your thoughts?… Remember even Evan got into a disagreement with the other male guest he had on his podcast over this subject (though they were talking about the female friend being an ex and I am just talking about mentioning names)

    1. 11.1
      Emily, the original

      Adrian,

      Brother, where have you been? You should have warned me school was SO MUCH WORK. I had forgotten that part of it.  🙂

       

      Emily we have had the conversation about women making men wait longer than 2 months numerable times and you never believe women actually do this; and now after hearing it from a woman (the letter writer) you still don’t believe it happens without there being something wrong.

      Yes, I believe it happens and, yes, I’m sure there are women who test men.

       

      So instead of rehashing an old conversation I will instead ask what is your and Stacy’s opinion on the advice like Steve Harvey’s 90 days and others who advise women to wait long periods of time to test a man?

       

      In theory, if a woman is looking for a man who wants a relationship, she is better off waiting to have sex with him until he at the very least indicates he wants to be exclusive and is open to see where things could go between them. In practice … it’s difficult to do … if you are really attracted to the guy. That’s my opinion, and I’m one person.

       

      Anyway I was just curious because whenever a guy mentions women making them wait long periods of time you always shrug it off.

      I don’t shrug it off. There are just a million reasons why a woman would make one man wait and jump into bed with another, and the reason to make one man wait isn’t always that she doesn’t find him all that attractive, which is what a lot of the male posters concluded. It depends on the woman.

    2. 11.2
      Sum Guy

       
      Hi Adrian,
       
       as to this: “I would just say be careful what you define as a Good Man.”
       
       
       
      I simply mean a person who is genuine, honest, respectful and secure.  That hopefully knows themselves enough to know what they want.  
       
       
       
      Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have doubts, fears, or  may not know what he wants in the moment.   Doesn’t mean he doesn’t let chemistry lead him where it will either.   It also doesn’t mean he is going to be the kind of man you want otherwise, but a person that won’t lie you on or is afraid of a direct question.  
       
       
       
      A good man, in my view, is going to understand the concerns a woman may have of sleeping with some one “too soon,” even if he does not agree with the definition of “too soon.”
       
       
       
      PS: I almost said he wouldn’t lead you on, but realized people read and mis-read intentions into other’s behavior, and rarely is it objective, especially when someone says “she lead me on” or “he lead me on.”    So yes a good person does not intentionally lead someone on, but it can happen unintentionally, people misread each other and have different baselines of what is leading on versus just normal behavior.
       

    3. 11.3
      Malika

      Are we less picky as time goes by? Speaking for myself, i got more picky, but that was when it came to behaviour, after dating more than one man who were just stringing me along. When i wised up thanks to Evan, only consistent and interested men were let in, which narrowed the dating pool sizeably, but gave me peace of mind.

      Incidentally, i empathize with the LW. If you only consider men who don’t treat you as an option and that you find attractive, you can go for very long spells without sex. And that is coming from someone who doesn’t need commitment before sex, but consistent and serious attention. It gives you peace of mind, but it can be rather frustrating.

      As for the blathering on about a woman, i must clarify it’s when he’s going on about a crush he has on a woman and treating you like an option. This is not a good look! But female friends, colleagues etc don’t bother me at all. I like it when a guy can connect with other women.

    4. 11.4
      Marika

      Adrian said:

      “I have a no debating rule that I set for myself on this blog..”

      Haha, but have you noticed, many of your comments create massive debates?? I think you’ve found a loophole for debating without debating..

    5. 11.5
      Stacy

      Adrian

      A woman has much more to lose when she has sex period.  Why? Because most women attach after sex.  So, waiting is not about testing or a game. Waiting is simply a healthy way to approach a relationship (emphasis on relationship) from a woman’s perspective because women think much clearer before sex and men think much clearer after sex.  As a result, it reduces the probability (just reduces, doesn’t eliminate of course) that a man will just ghost if he has invested enough before the sex. 

      To reiterate, I am not claiming that waiting guarantees the man will stick around. Shucks, sometimes men will ‘wait’ while having sex with someone else.  But yes, the probability that he will bolt can be greatly reduced as a result.  Again, no games.  The length of time varies. It can be two months or it can be 6 weeks. It depends on how much time the man (and woman) invests in order to hedge against the possibility of him leaving after sex. 

      And when a woman (assuming she is desiring sex and into the man) makes a man wait 3 months or  more, it is usually because he hasn’t invested enough (primarily through time) and she is uncertain. If he wants sex, he needs to invest – simple.  Most men who argue with this premise just want sex and would not have stuck around anyway.  If he waits and she is playing him, he needs to leave because she is just using him as the back up plan.  It is usually pretty clear that this is happening though. We just turn a blind eye to it many times when we like the person enough.
       

  12. 12
    Yet Another Guy

    @Evan

    Different reasons for me: I hated to sleep with women I knew I wouldn’t date and got sick of the headaches and drama that sex caused.

    Amen!  I cannot deal with the post-causal sex head trips anymore as well.  That is a huge part of why I no longer seek casual sex.  Some women can have sex for the sake of having sex and scratching an itch; however, I have found that these women are few and far between.

    1. 12.1
      Emily, the original

      YAG,

      Some women can have sex for the sake of having sex and scratching an itch; however, I have found that these women are few and far between.

      If you relegate the sex sessions to an hour a week (no sleepovers) with no contact in between other than to schedule the next session, some women could have sex for sex’s sake under those conditions, for a short time, anyway. But if you act like a boyfriend — you want her companionship, friendship and emotional support along with the sex — but all the while don’t want to be the boyfriend, yes, you’re going to confuse her. Taste a sample or buy the cake.

      1. 12.1.1
        Kenley

        Emily, I ageee with you 100%.  I have found that even though they want casual sex, some men don’t like being told they can’t sleep over.   I never, ever allow that.

        1. Emily, the original

          Kenley,

          some men don’t like being told they can’t sleep over.   I never, ever allow that.

          ALWAYS go to his place. That way you can leave when you want. If the the whole point of it is just sex, there’s no reason to stay over.

      2. 12.1.2
        Sum Guy

        Sounds like the opposite of being “friend zoned”, maybe being “sex zoned”, is friends with benefits somewhere in between? 🙂

      3. 12.1.3
        Malika

        I always describe the latter option as being the free prostitute/free therapist/+ 1 to work functions. The girlfriend experience, in a complete what’s in it for him way. No thanks!

      4. 12.1.4
        Yet Another Guy

        @Emily, the original

        I do not know about you, girl.  You are supposed to be encouraging me to become a kinder, gentler, more relationship-oriented YAG.  Instead, you are telling me about the value of “package” shots and how to obtain head-trip-less casual sex. 🙂

        1. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          Isn’t head-trip-less casual sex being kinder and gentler? Everybody’s on the same page. What I think is bullshit is a situation in which the guy wants the casual sex (and no commitment) but also wants a friendship and emotional support and maybe even to hang out and do things … on his terms and his time. That’s a head trip because it confuses women.

          Instead, you are telling me about the value of “package” shots

          I’m telling you how to show off your assets. 🙂 I didn’t advise that you send dick pics!   🙂

          What are your thoughts on this … I had this conversation with a guy friend. Do you think people are either sketchy or not sketchy? I say there are levels and degrees. He is very sleazy and said that he and I were alike. I said … I’m a little sleazy but he takes it to a whole different level.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          If companionship is not part of the deal, I would rather have companionship and attend to my own sexual needs.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily, the original

          What are your thoughts on this …

          I have a feeling that I would attempt to hook-up with you just for the experience if you lived on this side of the pond. 🙂

        4. Alex

          I realize no one asked me 😉 but I agree very much with you Emily.

          Whats incredibly frustrating as a woman is giving emotional support and friendship (along with sex) to someone who asks for it only to have them freak out when you think things are getting serious. Be up front always and put your money where your mouth is. Don’t let her sleep over and then take her to brunch with your friends.

          I don’t think guys realize that many women are actually ok with casual as long as you walk the walk. We don’t have to be tempted by a relationship to want sex.

        5. Emily, the original

          Alex,

          Don’t let her sleep over and then take her to brunch with your friends.

          When you do that, you make her think you want more than just sex. She thinks you are trying to get to know her.

          Keep the casual sex sessions short and one-dimensional so everybody knows what to expect.

        6. Emily, the original

          YAG,

          I have a feeling that I would attempt to hook-up with you just for the experience if you lived on this side of the pond. 🙂

          What I lack in skill, I make up for in novelty.   🙂

        7. Marika

          Get a room, YAG and Emily… 😉

      5. 12.1.5
        Stacy

        @Emily

        I agree. Sample or buy.

        PERSONALLY, I never ‘get’ when women have sex to just have sex (if they want a relationship and can’t separate the man fully from the sex which I strongly believe MOST women can’t).  For me, masturbation would be so much more pleasurable – don’t have to deal with the messy clean up (ha), always guaranteed an orgasm, don’t have to deal with attaching to some man who only wants to get off, and don’t have to deal with the insecurities of that, and don’t have to deal with the probability that he wasn’t that good in bed (probability goes up that he’s not that good aka selfish when it’s just casual sex). Oh, and don’t forget the possible disease factor.

        Eh, I will always pass.

         

        1. Alex

          @Stacy I think it gets MORE difficult when you’re actively looking for a relationship.

           

          You go out with a guy. It’s pleasant, but you realize he’s just not that into you, so you think “oh well, I might as well get my needs met here since he’s offering and I’ve been single for so long.” Before you know it you’ve caught feelings.

          At least I’ve learned to not do this anymore, but the impulse is very real. And the longer I’m single, the more tempting it is. Nature of the beast, I suppose

        2. Emily, the original

          Stacy,

          PERSONALLY, I never ‘get’ when women have sex to just have sex (if they want a relationship and can’t separate the man fully from the sex which I strongly believe MOST women can’t).

          Yes, it’s a bad strategy if woman wants a relationship. But sometimes it seems the stars have to align for a relationship to get off the ground. There are a lot of factor that have to line up for both parties. It’s hard enough just finding someone you find attractive and whose company you enjoy who is mutually interested. So a woman may think: This isn’t completely what I want but I don’t want to pass up the opportunity to actually have sex with someone I find appealing and I like.

    2. 12.2
      Sum Guy

      YAG

      I think the women who want to scratch an itch are more common than you think,  but once that itch is scratched it maybe they are good for a long time afterwards.

       

      I don’t know but would suspect there are dating sites/apps where it is all about the casual hook-up, just about the sex, no strings attached.

       

       

      1. 12.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @SG

        No thanks, that is just too risky.   The other major reason why I do not have casual sex anymore is HSV.  One in four women and one in five men are genitally infected with HSV-1 or HSV-2 in the United States, and there is no way to protect against it.  A person can be completely free of symptoms and still be shedding the virus.  The virus is transmitted via skin-to-skin contact.  Sex is just not enjoyable enough to roll the dice.

      2. 12.2.2
        JB

        I’ve got a feeling since the dawn of online/app dating SOME women have put up some crazy numbers that they just don’t talk about to anyone. It’s just too easy for them.

  13. 13
    Noquay

    2 1/2 months is long enough not to know where you stand. This post reads as though the OP is really hiding what she wants and her authentic under the guise of “giving him space”. Time to have “the talk” and if he bails, good riddance.

  14. 14
    WR

    Hmmm…

    The whole idea about sex and dating is a page 111 evolution. Unfortunately my evidence concludes that many singles never get to page 11 which is pretty much still the first chapter of a relationship.

    I don’t want to sound callous or cold but the truth is relationships are a business. If you were to survey 100 couples and asked them what stage of their relationship business are they currently residing in – they would probably look at you like you are from Pluto. Great place by the way.

    Think about the similarities between partnering with someone to launch a new company and you may benefit from applying the principles that create a Healthy, Harmonious and Prosperous™ enterprise.

    Do you think an investor would be willing to part with additional TME™ (time, money and energy) if you could not clearly define the stage the company currently is on any given day – yet people in relationships tend to just kind of wing it and hope the lust never wears off and keep rolling the dice.

    Sex should be an regular open topic (as well as many others) of new and/or old business in the boardroom because it is after  all a sustaining energy required for a successful relationship business.

    Imagine a company that only ever has boardroom discussions when the company is on the verge of bankruptcy and you will parallel many relationship experiences.

    I with offer this thought to ponder; If you do not manage the Business of your Relationship, it will strangle the lust that brought you together and kill any love that was trying to grow between you.

    To ensure proper Health, Harmony and Prosperity my 11 cents bets all in that Relationships are a Business and should be treated, honored and respected as such and partners always benefit greatly for the long or short haul when partners begin in the boardroomBEFOREbedroom™

    In direct reference to the blog post, I guarantee neither persons have even considered a boardroom discussion to outline the M.P.S.™ (Mission, Purpose and Story) and desired outcome of their relationship business much beyond their initial lust encounter.

    Not judging, just saying…

  15. 15
    singlewhitefemale

    Dear Sex

     

    I am in the same boat and have been for sometime. I am firm believer that it is ok to have friends with benefits while you wait for your “perfect relationship.” If both parties are on the same page and nobody is getting hurt…why not? You may be waiting years to find the right person to have a committed relationship with….so why waste all that time waiting with NO sex!! Live in the moment as it may be all we have. Keep up the great work Mark!

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