Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?

Is Sex on the Third Date the New Normal?
Evan, to say I’m frustrated with dating right now is an understatement! During the past six months, almost EVERY man I’ve gone out with expects sex by the third date. Seriously! It doesn’t matter if it’s a man I’ve met on an online dating site or if it’s a blind date through a friend. And the ones that don’t expect sex just kind of fade away. I’ve asked these men WHY they expect sex by the third date. Their response is that they have heard that if they don’t get it by the third date, the woman isn’t into them. Of course, I’m not sleeping with them… and they fall off the face of the earth.

I’m so fed up with this! I’m 45 now and I never experienced this type of scenario until just this year. Is this all there is now? Now that I’m older, is this all I can expect from a man at this stage of my life? –Patti

Dear Patti,

You’re certainly not the first to feel this way, my friend.

I’m sorry you’re frustrated, but in my experience as a dating coach, frustration usually results when someone’s expectations are out of line with reality.

The way to mitigate the frustration is not to change reality but to change your expectations.

The first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love.

In this case your expectations are that men should not be interested in having sex on the third date.

And reality is showing you that this is something that men are interested in.

What’s a slower-moving, more traditional woman to do?

Well, the first thing you can do is understand that men look for sex and find love. We are driven by attraction and have zero trouble separating the physical act of sex from the feelings of love. We’ll have sex with women we don’t like and women we’re barely attracted to. Especially if we’re lonely and sex-deprived (sex is always much more important when you’re not getting it!)!

I’m not saying you have to like this facet of men, but at least, at this point, you can stop getting surprised or upset at it. It’s like getting angry at rain or nightfall. Your opinions of it don’t matter much; it’s still going to keep on happening.

Next, you have to forgive these men for their ignorance. They know not what they do. Even if you believe their ridiculous statement, “If I don’t have sex by the third date, she’s not into me,” it doesn’t matter. What a man wants is not necessarily to have sex on the third date, but to have some physical contact that may, someday, lead to sex.

Men are like sharks that needs to keep on moving.

What a man wants is not necessarily to have sex on the third date, but to have some physical contact that may, someday, lead to sex.

If he’s been talking to you for a week, plans a date, picks you up, takes you out, grabs the check, drives you home, and is also attracted to you, you can be sure that if he’s at all confident, he’s going to make a first move.

How far he gets is up to you.

Then there’s going to be a second date. Same thing’s gonna happen. You can’t be surprised by this or blame him for this. All you can do is figure out how much you like him, how much you trust him, and how far you want to go. There’s no right or wrong. Your boundaries are your boundaries. You just can’t get too upset when he tries something.

Then there’s a third date. Same thing’s gonna happen. If you want to avoid sexual contact, you can make sure your third date takes place over a picnic in a park, at 5:30 after work, or at a crafts fair, but understand, he’s still driven by his attraction to you. He doesn’t know that he wants you to be his girlfriend yet.

So as I scripted, word by word, in Why He Disappeared, your job is to a) figure out if your man is interested in you or interested in sex, and b) figure out how to make it fun for him to slow down. Sex isn’t all or nothing and as long as you can take him around the bases slowly, you can buy yourself enough time to figure out if you want to be exclusive with each other. Play it right and he’ll stick around.

Make him feel like a sexually perverted sleazebag for making a move on you and you shouldn’t be too surprised if he doesn’t feel good about his prospects on the next date.

23
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Comments:

  1. 121
    amy

    @wendy #123
    you don’t sound like you’re doing what you want at all when you say
    ’ll have sex with a man whenever he wants it. You have to if you want him to call again.
    I hope that’s not the case.

  2. 122
    amy

    and to paragon #111 who called my post (it wasn’t advice, just telling it like it is) a “train wreck.”
    Women — myself included — are crazy. we glom onto guys and can’t see them clearly. We want them for all sorts of reasons, for our ego, beccause we want to be loved, because we like attention, because our father didn’t love us — so many things that don’t have to do with the man himself.
    I can say this now because I’m married and I wonder about so many of the guys I liked in the past, and am watching several of my friends who are chasing guys who have nothing in common with them. Some women do better to have some FWB just to see clearly.
    Of course, if they meet someone they really like, they’d end that relatinship.
     

  3. 123
    Karmic Equation

    @Julia @Fiona

    I understand what everyone is looking for. I don’t understand the angst and seeming desperation behing the search.

    Who’s to say my relationship won’t become an LTR? All I”m saying is that I”m not looking for one. I’m not “campaigning” for one. But that doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen. I guess I like “organically-developed” relationships – no timelines, no expectations. The relationship is because it was meant to be with both people working equivalently to build it. (I’m a romantic heretic :))

    Don’t angst about sex. If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it. If you want to do it, do it. But don’t *expect* a call back no matter how great it was for you. There is no guarantee of a relationship whether you have sex or withhold sex. Withholding sex just allows you time to assess the guy and his intent. There’s no guarantee you won’t be hurt the longer you hold out. There’s no guarantee that he won’t disappear eventually, even if you marry him. Because if you’re not the best female person he’s ever met and haven’t addressed the causes of your driving-men-away behaviors, he may eventually disappear.

    Address your insecurities and causes of driving-men-away behaviors at the “grassroots” level. Then everything else will fall into place and you’ll like yourself, man or no man. And when you do, the men will flock to you. Men like women who like themselves.

  4. 124
    Fiona

    Karmic, I like myself and have enough self respect not to sleep with men while they sleep with other women. Say what you want about my driving men away behaviour. I know all I want is to love and loved and I do not consider sleeping around or sharing a man with other women to achieve that. 

  5. 125
    Fiona

    The real question for me Karmic is do you like yourself? 

  6. 126
    Philly Ashley

    Dating is crazy these days. I’ve found that a lot of men want sex on the first date, or at least to get physical. I don’t kiss on the first date, and that seems to be an issue. Guys want to have some sort of physical contact or it seems they think they are wasting their time or money on you. Its like they won’t bother putting in the effort since there are so many women out there who give it up with much less effort on their part. I stick to my values and what is comfortable for me but its depressing. Its like where are all the gentlemen?

  7. 127
    Kurt

    Philly, it is unfortunate, but a lot of women lose interest in a man if he doesn’t at least try to kiss her on the first date if it is a real date, not just  a coffee-type of meet-up.

  8. 128
    Michelle

    “Address your insecurities and causes of driving-men-away behaviors at the “grassroots” level. Then everything else will fall into place and you’ll like yourself, man or no man. And when you do, the men will flock to you. Men like women who like themselves.”

    This is the answer #127, well said…

  9. 129
    Wendy

    I’d be willing to bet a lot of money that the folks who are more casual about sex (have it when you want it, don’t have it when you don’t, what-EV-er!) are also very attractive individuals who can get it pretty much any time they want it. They don’t have a clue what it’s like for the rest of us who don’t get the same opportunities. I think the reason I attach so much meaning to sex and hope so desperately that it will turn into a relationship is because I’m lucky if I get a shot at it only every three years or so. I like myself and am happy with the person I am, but I am also honest about my looks and rate myself around a 4-5. Those of you who are higher up on the scale who have to beat men off every time you go  to the grocery store (c’mon–you KNOW you do!) can’t possibly understand the difference in dating dynamics that we have to deal with. I’d love to know how a person’s attractiveness changes the game when it comes to “sex on the third date, or wait?”

  10. 130
    Karmic Equation

    @Fiona

    Yes ma’am. Never been happier with myself or with my life.

    I don’t have an exclusivity pact with the guy I”m dating, so it’s his *as well as my* prerogative to date others, and even sleep with others if we so choose. So words like “cheating” or “sharing” have no place in our relationship right now.

    I don’t sleep around. I’m a serial monogamist :) But my current guy doesn’t know that. I’m unreachable often enough that he wonders where I am and what I’m doing. Knowing him, he probably wonders who I’m doing…I just let him think what he wants to think. I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had, he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

    You make it sound like because I’m ok being non-exclusive with him that somehow shows my dislike of myself. You couldn’t be more wrong. The reality is that this guy has been a player all his adult life. He lives every guys dream of having a modern day harem. Women just give him their number unsolicited. He’s only known me for less than 5 months. I’m not going to change his mindset that was 15 years in the making in 5 months. That’s unrealistic.

    Since I’m unclear myself whether I want a relationship (remember I recently ended a 6 yr relationship and don’t feel like investing the effort into a new one just yet, hence a playah-fling is just what the doctor ordered) — it’s unfair to expect or ask that from him. And, realistically, *WHY* would he become exclusive with me when variety has been so easily the spice of his life?

    All that said, surprisingly he’s been escalating the relationship, pretty much on Evan’s 2-3 month timeline. He’s planning vacations with me in the future. So things are progressing. And depending on his actions, I’ll know whether he’s become exclusive even without the Exclusivity Talk. Only time and his consistency will tell if he’s sincere about this relationship.

    I like the direction this is heading, but I’m in no hurry to get to the destination. I like his company, he likes mine…and we spend as much time together as possible. That’s all that really matters at this point in time. If I continue to be the best female person I can be, he won’t be able to walk away…But you know what? I could if he’s not the best guy he can be. It’s a two-way street. I never forget that.

  11. 132
    nathan

    Wendy, the people I have known who are into casual sex are across the board in the looks department. It’s not just hot folks with endless opportunities, nor is it a small subset of people who only engage in casual sex and are never, or rarely, in relationships. Odds are, even with average looks, you’d find interested sex partners if you had no attachment to seeing them again or gaining a relationship. I’m not saying you should do that. It’s not really my approach to sex either. But I do think what you focus on changes the outcome. Wanting a long term relationship means eliminating a fair percentage of folks who either don’t want that, or aren’t sure they want that.
     
    I’ve known plenty of folks who are like Karmic, not ready for something serious following a long term relationship and so are much more flexible around sex and dating goals. Many of the same folks move back towards wanting a long term relationship again after six months or a year. More than one person has said to me something like “I needed to experiment. I needed some freedom to learn about myself more, and not be beholden to a single person and the work of maintaining a serious relationship.” 
     
    Frankly, Karmic’s overall attitude is really open and lacking the struggle and angst that so many folks seem to have. Regardless of your goals and desires in the dating/relationship realm, I think that openness and non-attachment to outcome are really key to being happy with your life.
     

  12. 133
    Karmic Equation

    @Wendy 133

    Hi Wendy. Ratings are kind of relative, you know. And one guys 9 is another guys 6. And it’s age dependent.

    I’m 45. Told I look 35…So when I date within my normal dating age group (40-55), I’m probably an 8 in looks. But since younger men find me attractive and I them, I’m probably a 6-7 when I date younger.

    Looks are just one factor. Looks determine whether a man wants to sleep with you, but it’s your personality that keeps them.

    If you want to consistently “have a shot”, then you’ll need to work on your looks first and personality 2nd. Sad, but true.

    If your looks are something you can do something about, e.g., if you’re overweight, then go the gym and go on a diet. If you don’t have a pretty face, go to department stores and other places that will teach to put on make up so that you do the best with what you have. If you have money or can save money, get plastic surgery if you must. (Catherine Zeta-Jones wasn’t born that gorgeous, you know). Learn to dress to maximize your assets and minimize your debits(??).

    From what I’ve read everywhere, men are visual creatures, so yeah you do have to look good enough (keeping in mind that “enough” is relative and subjective) to have a shot.

    That’s kind of the bad news.

    The good news is girls that are ok with one-night stands “get can play out of their league”: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/08/women-get-to-play-out-of-their-league.html

    Not sure if this gives you hope or makes you sad, but it is what it is. Good luck, hon.

  13. 134
    Fiona

    Fair enough Karmic. It sounds like you are not sure what you want but I would be inclined to give up any thoughts of a monogamy with that guy ever. Why would he go from being non-exclusive with you to being exclusive? You’ve already shown him that he can have you and other women at the same time and I can’t see him being too happy if the boundaries change. Then again, I am not a man or a player so maybe I am wrong here.

  14. 135
    Karmic Equation

    Hi Fiona, that thought has crossed my mind. When I’m ready for a boyfriend and he hasn’t asked, I’ll let him know that’s what I’m looking for. Then if doesn’t step up, it will be time to say good bye. But that’s a ways down the road…

  15. 136
    K

    @Wendy, fair enough thanks for the honesty and I didn’t think of it that way.  But if you consider yourself a 4-5, and assuming you are dating a 4-5 isn’t it  possible that guy doesn’t get a shot but every few years as well?  If he really likes you and you want to wait, I would imagine he would do it.  I don’t think the gals I know who take it slow are any hotter than my take it fast friends. 
     
    @Karmic, we are so different, but that doesn’t mean I can’t take an ounce of your advice and apply it.  Thanks for sharing.  I was getting upset the other day that a man I kissed on a first date didn’t call me (he did a few days later).  I realized that it was a really fun night out and a great kiss, need to learn maybe that is enough and think less about outcomes as you can’t control them.

  16. 137
    Hayley

    What I don’t agree with here is the thought that women don’t to have sex with a man, but they must fool around with him to keep him interested. This is utter rubbish, if a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor by the fact that he doesn’t think you are interested by date 3. A guy will only be put off by these factors if he only wants sex or if he is not that interested. My best friend had a guy pursue her for a year, although she always rejected him. Well he wasn’t getting any from her but he did everything in his power to win her, which he finally did.

    Maybe we are too available, too scared of not finding someone that we are lowering our standards and making it too easy and too little of a challenge. After all, if we really have to work hard to get something, we view that something as a lot more precious than if it came easy.

    1. 137.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      @Hayley: “What I don’t agree with here is the thought that women don’t to have sex with a man, but they must fool around with him to keep him interested. This is utter rubbish, if a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor by the fact that he doesn’t think you are interested by date 3. A guy will only be put off by these factors if he only wants sex or if he is not that interested.”

      Let’s try something, shall we? Between the two of us, who is the man? That’s right. Me.

      So while YOU may think it’s utter rubbish because YOU don’t operate that way and your best friend’s boyfriend doesn’t operate like that, MANY men, including me, operate like that way. If you don’t show interest in me pretty quickly, I’m going to assume you’re not interested. Duh.

      Your statement, “If a guy really likes you, he won’t be put off by lack of action, nor the fact that he doesn’t think you’re interested by Date 3″ is, on its surface, absurd.

      Keep refusing to kiss men, keep refusing to show interest, and see how many men stick around.

      I’ll keep coaching my women that all men want is for you to kiss them and show them interest, so it’s in YOUR best interest to do so.

      Leave the dating coaching to me and I’ll leave to you all the pathetic men who will pursue you for a year without getting laid.

  17. 138
    Ruby

    Wendy # 133
     
    Several months ago I met a woman who had a polyamorous lifestyle. She was married, but also had a boyfriend AND a girlfriend. She was surprisingly average looking, but I would say very outgoing and sure of herself. I’ve had other friends who are quite attractive, but haven’t had many partners because they are shy and lack confidence, despite their looks. 
     
    @Karmic Equation: Your player friend sounds like a good transition guy. Maybe placing no pressure on him will give him the space he needs to get closer to you. OTOH, he may not actually take the relationship-y things like vacation planning all that seriously, and might be seeing you more as a fun traveling companion.

  18. 139
    Fiona

    I can only assume the guy who pursued for a year also pursued other women. I find that there are men that I wasn’t interested in six months ago who still try to get me  to go out with them now. I assume that they are not having much success elsewhere and are therefore trying again on the off chance that I might have changed my mind in the interim rather than because they especially like me.

  19. 140
    Selena

    I am the only woman who thinks kissing is an indication of her own level of sexual attraction to someone?

  20. 141
    Karmic Equation

    @Hayley

    I had 6 dates in three weeks with my ex-husband when he was courting me. No action other than a long lingering kiss after every date. I fell in love with his personality and overall wonderfulness and devotion and had sex with him at date 7. The sex was ok. Not mind blowing. Not the best I ever had, not the worst. But you know what? We had declared to each other we were in love and I felt like a jerk if I told him I wanted to break up with him. I also thought, “Gee, what a shallow person I must be to want to not be with this wonderful man because the sex is just ho hum.” So, guess what. We married two years later. Our sexual activties decreased from several times a month, to quarterly, to bi-annually, then finally to celibacy in the final two years of our marriage.

    So after this experience, I decided the traditional route of platonic dating and only having sex after falling in love was not for me. I made a vow that next time, I’d have sex early to determine if the sex was good enough to warrant a relationship.

    Which is what I did. The next person I slept with was a one-night stand that turned into a 6-year relationship. The sex was worth having a relationship for.

    I imagine that my solution mirrors a man’s relationship thought process in default mode.

  21. 142
    Karmic Equation

    @Selena
    I think it depends on how you’re kissing them :)

  22. 143
    Karmic Equation

    @Ruby
    Good points. Be assured I will be monitoring his actions to see where his mind’s actually at. I’m ok with either outcome at the moment. It will only really matter when my heart/brain returns to relationship-ready mode. This is a relationship sure, but it’s not a “relationship-relationship.” LOL

  23. 144
    David T

    @Karmic

    134 I don’t sleep around. I’m a serial monogamist Description: :)But my current guy doesn’t know that. I’m unreachable often enough that he wonders where I am and what I’m doing. Knowing him, he probably wonders who I’m doing…I just let him think what he wants to think. I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had, he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

    But you also said:

    98 Even this situation. I would only feel vulnerable if I *want* a relationship and he’s stringing me along.

    103 “chemically, your BODY is making you bond with the guy, not really your “emotions.”
    Fight the guilt or acknowledge that your physiology is having an unpleasant side effect”

    114 Sex itself is not special. Who says it’s special?

    114 Separate sex from relationship expectations and you will empower yourself.

         True dat, but I don’t think it is possible to do more than deny what sex makes us feel and try to ignore that feeling. We can become practiced in that denial and even make it reflexive. What you said in 134 shows you are failing to completely deny the bond you are creating.

         You have the prerogative to sleep around, but you don’t.  Sounds like sex is special to you, at least sex with this one man.   You have higher hopes than you want to admit, because it sex with him has become important to you on an emotional level.  Whether this “unpleasant side effect” is a brain chemical addiction is irrelevant, it has hit your emotions and you are addicted to this man.

         Do you see how your tone in 134 is very much at odds with your intellectual expression of sex without emotional bonding? You are trying to “get him to feel that feeling” and yet you are not vulnerable? Why would you care how he feels if you are not vulnerable? You claim to have control over how sex bonds you, and yet in 134 you are talking about manipulating your player’s emotional response to sex so that he might want to be exclusive with you (if you decide you want that.  I think you have decided, but have not admitted it to yourself). My goal is not to prove you wrong but to point out a very real dissonance between what you are telling yourself and us and what you seem to be feeling for this man.   This can set you up for a hard fall.

         He is confused because he is having a harder time denying his bond to you as it deepens. That doesn’t mean he will learn to let go of this denial that sex bonds him to every woman he shares himself with. Given: his player past (and present!); that he seems to love you and still sleeps with other women; is jealous of the idea of you being with other guys; the outcome is you will successfully convince him to make you a promise that he has no intention of keeping. You’ll be at the top of his harem (for a while, anyway) and he will try to hide the fact of his harem from you. Take a long look in the  mirror  and be darn sure you really do not care if he is ever exclusive with you. I think you already want that.
     

    114 I’m not advocating sleeping around…I don’t…but I can if I wanted to. And when I want to, I have no guilt and no expectations…
         So put it to the test.  Sleep with someone else.  Will you have no guilt? Can you do this without  If you don’t you are safe continuing with your player.  If you do, you are setting yourself up for a fall and the longer you go, the harder it is going be. Sounds like you have a happy life with or without him, so you will rebound if I am right about all this, but expect some pain coming your way.
    Good luck lady, you need it.

  24. 145
    Karmic Equation

    @David T

    True dat, but I don’t think it is possible to do more than deny what sex makes us feel and try to ignore that feeling. We can become practiced in that denial and even make it reflexive. What you said in 134 shows you are failing to completely deny the bond you are creating.

    I never said I haven’t bonded. I don’t deny that I have feelings for him. I like him. I treat him like a sex object sometimes. But I like him. I never said it won’t hurt if the relationship ends. But I’m not afraid of the potential pain. It won’t stop me from continuing.



    You have the prerogative to sleep around, but you don’t.  Sounds like sex is special to you, at least sex with this one man.   You have higher hopes than you want to admit, because it sex with him has become important to you on an emotional level.  Whether this “unpleasant side effect” is a brain chemical addiction is irrelevant, it has hit your emotions and you are addicted to this man.

    Nope. I sleep with men I’m attracted to. It just so happens I’m attracted to one man at a time? Well, seriously, my biology seems to be that I start finding new men attractive as the current relationship is on its last legs. I can’t say that I’m monogamous because sex is special to me…but rather that the “relationship” is special? This is the best I can explain it.

    Do you see how your tone in 134 is very much at odds with your intellectual expression of sex without emotional bonding? You are trying to “get him to feel that feeling” and yet you are not vulnerable? Why would you care how he feels if you are not vulnerable? You claim to have control over how sex bonds you, and yet in 134 you are talking about manipulating your player’s emotional response to sex so that he might want to be exclusive with you (if you decide you want that.  I think you have decided, but have not admitted it to yourself). My goal is not to prove you wrong but to point out a very real dissonance between what you are telling yourself and us and what you seem to be feeling for this man.   This can set you up for a hard fall.

    You took this somewhat out of context…My exact words were “I know he doesn’t like thinking about me with other guys, so this is just my way of getting him to feel that feeling so that *if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had,* he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

    Yes, manipulation to some degree. However, the reasoning is that if I end up having an exclusivity talk with him in the future and have to refer to how I don’t like his sleeping around I can relate it to “his” feeling when he thought I was sleeping around.

    We may never get to the point where we have this talk. The relationship may end before this. Or he may surprise me in a good way. I don’t know what he’s thinking about this. Do I hope? perhaps. But will I freak out if this doesn’t come to pass? No. Will I hurt if he says “No, baby, I’ll keep sleeping with whomever I want”, very likely. Will I be “devastated”? No. Will I think all men are jerks? No. Will I think HE’s a jerk? No. Will I think I was stupid? Nope. What would I do differently next time? Maybe not date a player? Maybe date a player with fewer obvious options? Who knows?

    He is confused because he is having a harder time denying his bond to you as it deepens. That doesn’t mean he will learn to let go of this denial that sex bonds him to every woman he shares himself with. Given: his player past (and present!); that he seems to love you and still sleeps with other women; is jealous of the idea of you being with other guys; the outcome is you will successfully convince him to make you a promise that he has no intention of keeping. You’ll be at the top of his harem (for a while, anyway) and he will try to hide the fact of his harem from you. Take a long look in the  mirror  and be darn sure you really do not care if he is ever exclusive with you. I think you already want that.

    I’ve already thought of this possibility. He’s a man of his word, player or not. So if he gives his word he will keep it, or at least have every intention of keeping it (let’s be realistic). Being a player doesn’t mean he’s totally devoid of morals. If just means he doesn’t have any when it comes to women. So, if he promises exclusivity, it will be because he loves me. He wouldn’t promise it otherwise. Once the promise is given if he cheats, it will mean he doesn’t love me anymore. I’ll end the relationship. Will it hurt? Sure. Will I be devastated? Yes. But I should be then. We would have been in a bona-fide relationship. If I weren’t hurt I’d be inhuman.
     

    114 I’m not advocating sleeping around…I don’t…but I can if I wanted to. And when I want to, I have no guilt and no expectations…
         So put it to the test.  Sleep with someone else.  Will you have no guilt? Can you do this without  If you don’t you are safe continuing with your player.  If you do, you are setting yourself up for a fall and the longer you go, the harder it is going be. Sounds like you have a happy life with or without him, so you will rebound if I am right about all this, but expect some pain coming your way.
    Good luck lady, you need it.

    Send another hot, sexy player my way and yeah I’ll gladly sleep with him to see if I feel any guilt. Are you offering?

  25. 146
    Evan Marc Katz

    @Margo, a class act who decided to tell me that I’m “nasty, arrogant, self-righteous” because I defended myself from being accused of being a “perverted sleazebag and rapist” in her post #58. 

    If defending myself from insults from strangers means that I’m nasty, arrogant and self-righteous, I’ll wear that label proudly. I’m ridiculously happy in my relationship and thrilled with the readers who come here to learn and discuss, rather than casually tossing off ill-thought, emotionally charged insults. You seem to forget: YOU insulted ME. Would you want to come to work to receive an insulting post-it note on your desk each day? Didn’t think so. You’d probably complain to management about it. The good thing about this job is that I AM management.

    And every time I ban some shrill, petty, illogical person like you, I feel better that I can go through my day without having to fend off attacks from anonymous strangers. If you put yourself in my position, you’d do the exact same thing.

    But your inability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes (say, a man who makes a first move on Date 2), is exactly what put you in this predicament.

    Have a great weekend and big props to the man who is able to overlook your ability to insult him and then blame him for defending himself.

  26. 147
    David T

    Karmic150 Well, seriously, my biology seems to be that I start finding new men attractive as the current relationship is on its last legs. I can’t say that I’m monogamous because sex is special to me…but rather that the “relationship” is special? This is the best I can explain it.
         Sounds like monogamy is hardwired into you.  This does not sound like “sex isn’t special” and “I can sleep with whomever/whenever with no guilt/hopes.” At the least “sex” and “relationship’ are inextricably intertwined for you.

    Karmic150 My exact words were . . . *if/when the Exclusivity Talk needs to be had,* he’ll know what I’m talking about when I say I don’t like that feeling.

         I saw the “if.” My point was that the fact that you care at all about the outcome of such a hypothetical discussion means you are invested beyond “sex with him is nice when it happens and I don’t care who else he sleeps with.” You know your mind and heart better than I can, I am pointing out inconsistencies that you might want to think about to understand what is going on inside you.

    Karmic150 if he gives his word he will keep it, or at least have every intention of keeping it (let’s be realistic). Being a player doesn’t mean he’s totally devoid of morals. If just means he doesn’t have any when it comes to women.
    Danger! Danger, Wilma Robinson!!  Two things here. Have you checked betwixt yer legs lately?  Are you or are you not one of those folks you just said he doesn’t have any morals regarding?   People with circumstantial integrity, as you have described your player friend, tend to be the ones who keep that integrity as long as it is convenient. If he is jealous of you sleeping with other men, then wouldn’t someone with circumstantial integrity scratch that particular itch of theirs by saying what he has to say, but not alter acting on his other wants? I don’t know him as well as you do.  Maybe you meant something besides honesty when you spoke about him not being moral with other women.

    Karmic150 Send another hot, sexy player my way and yeah I’ll gladly sleep with him to see if I feel any guilt. Are you offering?
    You make a great straight woman. This provides a nice segue into why I won’t sleep with anyone I am not in love with.

    @Tom 92 I’d be interested to know why you think like you do if you’re not religious.
         I happen to be religious, however this plays little or no role in my decision, which I made a couple of years before I came to faith.
    I changed my opinion about whether sex is something to just do with someone because it is fun, because I found it difficult not to start to love someone I had sex with. If I am NOT emotionally attached in an exclusive sense and still have sex, this creates an immediate emotional dissonance within me.  The tension is only resolvable by letting go of the attachment or developing it further. The former is of course a bit painful and the latter potentially worse, because I may be getting myself into a toxic relationship if we are not a good match or the person themselves is genuinely toxic. The brief fun of sex is not worth either of these.
         I have noticed my desire to be in a relationship at all diminishing over the years.  I have not lost my libido.  That seems just about as active as ever! ;) I believe that because emotions are involved at some level whether I want it to be or not, every time I have had a sex partner that I didn’t attach to, I chipped away a bit more at my ability to attach to someone else. . Years ago, I had no trouble with this at all, in fact I would want to attach too soon to many women I met, sex or not! I believe I am fundamentally monogamous; just made that way, and there is a bit of of all those past lovers (whether I was sexual with them or not) left behind. Just like Karmic finds herself monogamous naturally until a relationship starts to fade, I think that for me a little of the monogamy pull stays behind after every relationship.
        My current difficulty in attaching is mostly because of other issues in my life but I am sure that prior carelessness with my sexuality contributes too.  I feel less and less of a need or want to fall in love, but I am pretty sure deep down that is something I want in my life, so I am guarding my remaining capability by not having sex with someone unless I am in love with them. I’ll make out.  I’ll get hot and bothered; these things are important to develop attachment, but I won’t go all the way until I know I am in love. I have limited coin to put into the different relationship banks that come my way during my lifetime and I don’t want to run out.
        I accept that maybe some people are not made this way, but I wonder how many who say and believe that are actually in denial.
       
         For those of you who remain doubtful I leave you with this; if you can really have sex without any emotional involvement, why not masturbate when you are horny? Why do you need a partner? It is more convenient and physically safer (and I believe emotionally safer too!) If that is not a satisfactory solution to being horny,  carefully examine if intimate physical connection with another human is really as emotion free for you as you consciously believe. If it isn’t,  you might be making things harder on yourself down the road without realizing it. Ask yourselves if  the more people you have slept with, the slower and harder it became to attach to the next real relationship prospect.  To some extent maybe that is good.  Maybe it helps you from making the wrong choice, but eventually, maybe it leaves you unable to attach at all.

  27. 148
    David T

    151 loaded when I posted thus the double post.
    @Evan 151 Guessing you shielded the thread from a flame. Thanks fort taking one for the team  and keeping us on what I believe is a very important topic.
    @RW 106 You said what I was trying to say in a much cleaner way. Props. (Yeah, that was a gimmee go back I left out of my last post.)

  28. 149
    Karmic Equation

    @Dave T

    You make a great straight woman. This provides a nice segue into why I won’t sleep with anyone I am not in love with.

    Thanks, Dave. My gut tells me “great straight woman” is a compliment, but my head doesn’t understand what this means. Could you clarify? Inquiring minds want to know :)

    Perhaps if I add a qualification to my original point, what I intended would be clearer? Since disappearance after ONS or first-time sex (regardless of which date #) was what I was responding to initially the following is a clearer statement of what I meant:
    Women should separate sex from “outcome” (thanks, nathan) or “relationship-requirements/expectations” when only having had sex once AND/OR shouldn’t expect a call-back after having first-time sex. In other words, don’t *expect* (you could  hope but don’t *expect* and I would advise even against hoping) a relationship to develop (or a call-back) from a one-night stand or from someone with whom she’s had sex only once. Not *expecting* the call back WILL dull the hurt. I’m not saying there will be no hurt, but I can say that the degree of hurt won’t be the same.

    So, in my philosophy, you can and should expect *from yourself* *one-time* sex without emotional involvement (ladies, fight the feeling! or fake it ’til you feel it that is what I saying) …and my advice is that if you DO get emotionally involved even with one-time sex (or refuse to fight your biology), then yes, you will need to be “in a relationship” before you have it.

    From what I’ve read the oxytocin effect (bonding with sex partner) is quicker/higher/intenser in women than men because testosterone in men dulls their reaction to it. So while men will bond with women thru sex, they have to have much more sex with the woman for the sex to have any bonding effect. I guess my non-scientific hypothesis is that if a woman hopes to leverage a man’s oxytocin bonding effect to her, she should have sex early and often with said man. LOL. (I’m sorta kidding). BTW, I’m not a nympho, I might sound like one on TV because I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express recently (haha)…Couldn’t resist saying that because I know what some of you are thinking.

    Dave, Somewhere along the line the above meaning got lost. Sorry about that. I agree with your premise that most people cannot have a lot of sex (or more than one-or-two-or-three-time sex) with someone and remain emotionally distant. For some, even one time is too many to remain emotionally distant. As a woman, I’m suggesting that women fight this emotional bonding from one-time sex so as to feel empowered instead victimized or helpless or hurt. we can’t help what we feel, but we have the power to fight the feeling and work at not letting that oxytocin-induced feeling add to our insecurities caused by a non-callback or non-relationship from one-time sex.

    OTOH, if a man *disappears* after 2nd time sex, then Houston we may have a problem.

  29. 150
    Karmic Equation

    @K 140
    I’m glad you were able to apply what I meant. Dating and meeting new men and sex/making out are FUN activities if you ENJOY THE MOMENT and don’t attach what happens next to what you did or didn’t do.

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