Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

As you may know, I’m really big on statistics, metrics, heuristics, anything data-driven that is going to bring objectivity to something as subjective and emotional as dating.

I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.

Or that 95% of the country practices premarital sex.

Or that only 14% of men are over 6 feet tall.

And 5% makes over 100k.

Numbers put reality into perspective, and, from there, we can make healthy and informed decisions about love.

Nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women.

But nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women. We’ve touched on it in many forms before. Why older men want younger women. Why older women want younger men. How many emails men and women get on dating sites. The availability and merits of 7s vs. 10s. Lori Gottlieb’s seminal book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling For Mr. Good Enough” is pretty much a meditation on this very subject. Gottlieb discovered that while she was in her early 30′s, passing up on the 7′s and holding out for a 10, by the time she reached her late 30′s, the 10′s were only interested in women in their early 30′s. Furthermore, the quality of the men available to her as a 39-year-old who wanted her own biological children was closer to a 5 (in her mind). Yes, I know these numbers are gauche, but we’re trying to establish a pattern. Not based on our feelings about how things should be or what would be right and just and fair. But simply by observing the behaviors and desires of men and women.

Enter Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart. I haven’t met Ms. Walsh, but I feel like we’re probably kindred spirits, because she decided to post this long, wonky post with a number of charts and graphs.

The premise of her post was to establish which gender, if any, had greater sexual market value – which is to say, more enduring appeal to the opposite sex over time. The term market value seems crude, but it’s the best possible term because, like economic market forces of supply and demand, these are completely self-regulating. If a man thinks he can date a 10, but no 10′s want him, then, evidently, he’s overestimated his sexual market value. If a woman dates online and thinks she can date a man 10 years younger because she “looks good for her age”, but no men 10 years younger give her the time of day (apart from requests for NSA sex), then, well, she, too, has overestimated her sexual market value. Essentially, whether you’re a 3 or a 10 is not really your decision. The market will tell you what you can command. Just as it does with your own salary. Anyone who holds out for a 500K salary but finds that no one is willing to pay it will remain unemployed for a really, really long time. Anyway, back to the original premise:

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

I think we can also agree that, for whatever reason, older men seem have more dating options than older women. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more 50-60-year-old men dating 5-10 years younger than women dating men 5-10 years younger.

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

Based on this, there is a perception that men have greater sexual market value than women. This opinion is particularly espoused by hardcore men’s groups, because it’s an appealing narrative. They say something to the effect of: “American women are way too picky, way too masculine, way too selfish. But due to biology, I can be that 45-year-old guy who is hooking up with 27-year-old women while 45-year-old women turn into angry spinsters.” These are not my sentiments, but we do see them occasionally expressed in the comments section below, usually by dorky guys without much game who play the “biology” card early and often. Enter Susan Walsh. Using data from 200,000 people on OkCupid, Walsh takes on these men who overestimate their appeal to younger women and gives them a good old-fashioned scientific smackdown, concluding:

Mean male sexual value over 30 year period: 40.0

Mean female sexual value over 30 year period: 39.9

By this unbiased calculation of actual data, the male and female of the species exhibit the same sexual market value.

The OKCupid chart has good, reliable information for both sexes. Women need to understand that the male curve lags the female curve by about five years, is flatter and a little wider. That means you’ll have more competition from younger women as you age. You will never be hotter than you are at 22, so plan accordingly.

It’s important to recognize that some men display a motive for artificially elevating the SMV of aging males, so ignore any wisdom characterized as “red pill.”

In my own coaching materials, I always suggested that a woman’s peak was 27-30 in terms of her desirability to the most men, and that a man’s peak was 35-39. I’m going to stick with that premise, since I think OkCupid’s data skews young. In other words, while a 22-year-old may be hot, most 41-year-old quality men would never actually date or marry one. So to all of the readers in my core demographic: 35-55, have no fear. As long as most 22-year-olds are creeped out by 40-year-old guys, there are no shortage of men out there for you.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 31
    Karmic Equation

    I think that comparing a man’s SMV with a woman’s SMV is misleading. Why? Because women can get sex any time she wants. It would be more accurate to rate women on her RELATIONSHIP Market Value (as Fusee says). And since men, presumably, can get relationships any time they want, HE should be rated on his SMV. In other words, let’s rate women on their power to obtain Relationships and let’s rate men on their power to obtain Sex, hence RMV for HER and SMV for HIM–to determine the respective gender’s MATING market value (we have to come up with a new term :))

    If we use those equivalent metrics to rate men and women’s Mating value, then the charts make more sense, right?

    Beautiful women in the 20′s can get serious (i.e., monogamous) relationships with men into their 80′s.

    Successful or charismatic men in their 30′s can get sex from women 18-80 (imagine Raquel Welch as the 80yo, fellas).

    In that case women in their 20′s have the highest Mating value for men of any age. Because most men will have a serious relationships only with women with whom they have a sexual relationship.

    Men in their 30s have the highest Mating value for women in their 20s and 30s. Because most women will only have sex with men with whom they enjoy a serious relationship.

    So for all the women here who’ve stated that they’re more attractive now than in their 20s (I include myself in this group) — our RMV is not as high as it was in our 20s, even though we’re more f*ckable now. Sorry to have to burst that bubble.

    And men in their 40′s who believe they have a high SMV value still, you may get to have sex with the occasional drunken 20yo or one on the rebound from a breakup from her jerk bf who never bought her anything…But your value to her is NOT because of your high SEXUAL market value, it’s because of your high RELATIONSHIP market value.

    The dudes in their 30′s are the ones who corner the market for babes looking for relationships, and thus getting the corresponding sex that goes along with it.

    What a downer, huh?

    However, if you look at this from a positive perspective, it’s not bad at all. It’s very aligned to reality as well as what most men and women want from each other.

    40-something men need to keep their relationship value high (have a job, be consistent, communicative, faithful, high emotional IQ is a bonus) in order to maintain a high SMV to the hottest/youngest women.

    40-something women need to keep their sexual value high (e.g., look the best they can outwardly) in order to have high RMV for the highest-RMV value men she can attract. But women do have it harder. If you’re 40 and insecure, why would a man date you rather than a 20 and insecure woman? So in addition to looking good on the outside, a 40yo woman has the responsibility to be relationship-worthy on the inside, e.g., secure, confident, kind, and nice, at a minimum. Else the high RMV value guy is going to disappear on you.

    So yes, this theory would support that women in their late 20′s better lock up the highest RMV men they meet then. Because it gets more difficult to get the relationship she wants as she ages. She gets to call the shots in her 20′s. He gets to call the shots after 30.

    1. 31.1
      Karmic Equation

      Ok. I re-read what I wrote and I seem to conflate the SMV’s and RMV’s.

      Here’s the Cliff Notes clarification of #31.

      WOMEN seek men with high RMV with whom to have sex.

      MEN seek women with high SMV with whom to have relationships.

      Because men value a woman’s SMV over her RMV, WOMEN need to have high SMV in order to have the best chance at getting into a relationship.

      Because women value a man’s RMV over his SMV, MEN need to have high RMV in order to have the best chance at getting sex from the hottest women.

      Because men and women do not put the same importance on RMV and SMV, we need to use a new gender-neutral rating system that combines the gender-specific criteria, which I’m coining as Mating Market Value (MMV):

      Male MMV = High RMV (inner attractiveness) plus reasonable SMV (outer attractiveness)

      Female MMV = High SMV (outer attractiveness) plus reasonable RMV (inner attractiveness).

      It behooves both sexes on improving the aspect/criteria that the opposite sex is seeking for the best chance at dating/mating success.

      1. 31.1.1
        tamara

        Very intelligent post, thanks for your insight. I love this blog–Evan is so smart and so are many of the commenters, I discovered it a few days ago and keep reading it at work, lol!

  2. 32
    starthrower68

    I was married and a mom at 24 so I don ‘t really know the answer to this question per firsthand experience, but are 20-something women really that creeped out by 40 something men?  I see a lot of couples where the guy is significantly older than the girl.  I could be wrong but I think the gals in their 20′s will happily date a guy in his 40′s, especially if he’s very good looking.  I think they might be creeped out if he’s pushing 50.

  3. 33
    Peter 51

    When you are a tall woman, the pool of taller men is small.  When you are a clever woman the pool of clever men is small.   When a woman has a independent business, the pool of men with a successful independent business is small.  To say nothing of income.  Age becomes less of a discriminating factor.   When you are all lumpenstudenten together, it is a different story. Regular readers know where I am coming from.  Extreme age differences (decades) are actually more stable in marriage than the conventional 2 year difference. Presumably, when large age differences are dismissed by the parties involved other RMV factors have been seen to be important.  Having said that RMV is not SMV which is about hot bodies and conspicious status (Nobel prize say).  There is a dreadful confusion between RMV and SMV in a world where we are all strangers to each other.  If we had grown up in the same village there would be no such confusion.

  4. 34
    Jess

    Evan- this is the exact reason why women feel no choice but to lie about their age and subtract some years (especially when online dating). Even Patti Stanger did it and it helped to land her current boyfriend. I am 31 (quickly turning 32) and it’s alarming to me that men are so critical of age. We are in the age of IVF and egg freezing so that we no longer have to worry about the biological clock issue.. or at least not worry as much! So, I have been lying and say I’m 29 in my profile.. is it akward to explain this to men, yes, but I feel like men have forced us by their superficiality on age to lie! My grandmother of blessed memory lied about her age when dating my grandfather as he claimed he liked  younger women.. but when they were in love, he didn’t care! So I’m starting to think it’s better if we women lie and tell men we are younger so as to avoid being downgraded in a man’s mind! It’s better to be honest.. however, what you are saying is scaring me and I think a lot of women feel the same way.

    1. 34.1
      julia

      Jess-I was online dating from 30-32. There was never a shortage of high market men messaging. Stop lying about your age, confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old.
       

  5. 35
    Jess

    One last comment: I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30′s- 40′s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20′s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value. In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET! Women who reach 30′s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group.. yet whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood , women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!?? It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20′s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!

    1. 35.1
      Tom10

      @Jess
      “I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30′s- 40′s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20′s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value”
       
      But who considers men in their 30s and 40s at their “peak”? Women do, as they are the ones that choose to date these men. Therefore, where is the hypocrisy? Men can’t just unilaterally declare themselves at their peak when it suits them.
       
      Conversely men often get irritated by the dating power of women in their 20s, but who gives these women that power? Men do.
       
      Therefore, although I understand your irritation ultimately I think it’s misplaced.
       
      “In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET!”
       
      Non-sequitur. Men who seek a fulfilling and successful career don’t care that women seek the same. Therefore what motivation have men got to change their opinion in this department?
       
      “Women who reach 30′s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group” 
       
      Not necessarily – there are many different reasons why different men and women are still single at that age. It would be unwise to assume that all other single people are single for the same reason that you are single.
       
      ”whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood, women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!??”
       
      This is because men and women value certain traits differently; therefore men and women are not rewarded equally (in dating) for building up a career. Men are only “rewarded” by women, if women decide to do so.
       
      Conversely women in their 20s are considered more far more valuable than their male peers, even though these men have been studying/working just as hard to build their lives. Does this seem fair either!??
       
      “It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20′s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away”
       
      And how do you propose to control the behavior of every 20-something woman in the world? I imagine it will be quite difficult to establish some sort of demographic cartel involving hundreds of millions of women.
       
      “and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!”
       
      But who gets to define how “it’s supposed to be”? If we are “supposed to” only date people our own age, are we therefore also “supposed to” date only within our own race? Our own class? Our own education/height/financial groupings?
       
      The thing is Jess, there is no “supposed to be” – it’s a free world out there. So each individual is entitled to choose their own prerogative when dating.
       
      “What you are saying is scaring me” (#34)
       
      I do take this point. Dating sites and blogs have to deal in general concepts, therefore this can sometimes lead to a disproportional focus on one or two specific criteria, whereas real life judgment involves collating dozens of cues and characteristics.
       
      I agree with Julia #34.1: “confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old”.

  6. 36
    kelli

    men in their 40s and 50s have to seek younger women if they want to start a family. if men haven’t had children by upper 40s/50s, they realistically cannot date someone in their own age group in the hopes of starting a family. that is why many of them gravitate to women in their 20s and early 30s. and women have to know this – if you’re 35+ you won’t attract a guy in your age group as easily, especially if he wants a family. the solution as I see it is for women in their 30s and 40s to go 10+ years above their own age; those men will still find you young and attractive, they (likely) won’t want kids for whatever reason, they will have money and status and developed hobbies, and they will look how they look, so you can judge their appearance for what it is.

  7. 37
    julia

    So I think the lesson is that if both women and men want children they should get serious a little later. Just like a 38 woman who suddenly realizes she has little time, a man shouldn’t wait until he’s 50 to decide to start a family. Sure he might physically be able to father a child but finding a partner he can do so with will be challenging. 
     

  8. 38
    AllHeart

    There was a time when I dated older men. I was looking for a daddy-figure. I was looking for the kind of relationship that didn’t require too much of me. In my relationships with older men, the men never expect very much from me. I got away with lots of stuff. Including never, even in the course or an ongoing 6+ month relationships, sleeping with some of them. (I was not really attracted to these older guys sexually, I was attracted to feeling taken care of.) These were men who where very successful and had ivy league educations. They gave up a lot of their self-respect for my youth even though on the outside that’s not what other people saw at all. At the time, I just liked being taken to fancy places and feeling taken care of. When I was younger, I couldn’t figure out why I ultimately didn’t really feel super attracted to them. Other then the fact that they were older, I simply didn’t respect them because they were older guys dating me, a younger girl. What woman in her right mind would set her up for that kind of epic fail? What woman would commit herself to a life with a man that saw her as a depreciating value?

    Then as I got older, and more emotionally mature, I wanted to bond with men on an entirely different and deeper level. Dating men my own age required more of me as a human being, as a woman. I had to actually grow and care about the needs of someone else which made me a better partner and woman. Partnerships with men my own age had more value. We worked together as a team. I didn’t have to worry about them aging me out of my worth to them. They knew they and I, where so much more then what the world qualified us for.

    Today? I would be open to dating older men but I simply feel too bitter after a decade of seeing, reading and experiencing how men treat women based on age. Reading the comments here is enough to turn any woman off any older man. It’s one of the biggest prejudices in the world. And yes, it’s a prejudice and a a boaderline hate-filled one to tell another human being that they have less inherent value then you.

    I certainly think older men can and do have a lot of value. But the fact that men seem to believe that women hold less value then themselves has made me sad, scared and worried for the future and very hesitant to get into a relationship with an older man, even one I am attracted to. And I’m not worried that I won’t find someone. No. I’m worried about how easily men degrade women on the premise of age but use all these facts and statistics about why it’s perfectly acceptable to hold onto the idea that women are less then men.

    And that is ultimately what this debate comes down to. Take away all the fluff this is about men, in this day and age, setting a dynamic in the world that makes women less then them. And that’s got nothing to do with biology.

    As for the comment Evan made about men who are creepily attracted to young girls, that’s not a construct of men and their biology. That’s a construct of our messed up world and what men have allowed themselves to get tied up in. Because biologically, women are actually most fertile at age 26. So it doesn’t account why young girls would be the focus of lust unless something was really broken in our society.

    So there you have it. My take. I’d be open to older men. But how can I be open to men when I see so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?

    And I ask this with all sincerity Guys, you want women to love and respect you. how can a woman do that if you are forever telling her she holds less worth then you do?

  9. 39
    Karmic Equation

    Allheart,

    I’m sorry that you sound so disillusioned. Disillusionment is very saddening.

    Have you really been the object of “so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?” All the men you’ve met, male family members, male friends, male colleagues, male strangers? *Most* of them treat you so poorly?

    Or is it ALL the men you’ve dated? It can’t be ALL because you admit that in your youth men treated you like a queen and you got to call all the shots…and lost respect for them because they were doormats to you.

    I would believe that a subsection of men in your life may have treated you poorly. There is also a subsection of men in the world who are serial killers. Are all men serial killers? Another subsection that are rapists. Are all men rapists?

    You’re creating unnecessary drama with this black and white thinking and absolving yourself from your own responsibility in choosing to date those men who think about or treat you poorly. And if you believe in Karma, that whatever goes around comes around, it could be in the larger scheme of the universe your callous treatment of men in your youth has come full circle and now you face the wrong end of that karmic revenge now as you’ve aged.

    Depressing thought.

    However, the solution isn’t to further entrap yourself in that kind of depressive thinking and actions.

    Believe that you will find good men, and you will find them. You have to have faith. Do good deeds unrelated to dating, because karma isn’t always tit-for-tat. It’s an accumulation of all the good you’ve done that at some point comes to roost. Pay it forward and be as good a person you can be to all the good people in your life. Avoid the bad people.

    Eventually things work out.

    But *all* men aren’t your problem. Only some men are. Avoid them. Suss them out faster. Problem solved. Own your choices so that you can own your outcomes.

  10. 40
    AllHeart

    Karmic Equation, read this blog. Look at the things a lot of men are saying about women. Look at this posting about women’s “market value” vs men’s. Look at how casually it’s referenced that it’s boarderline okay when older men have attractions to young girls because must of them are.

    The message repeats itself. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. This is what men appear to believe. Most men, based on this research shared here and the responses to this blog show that men enjoy throwing women away on some level while they do not want to be throw away at all.

    Women are subjected all day long to this. Through porn, through women’s magazines, through men’s magazines. The message is all the same for women, “You are a less worthy member of society as you get older. You don’t deserve a life filled with love, sex, romance after a certain age when you can no longer be a little baby-maker. Men are more worthy members of society, love, sex, romance and procreation. They can have babies until they are 60 so they should be able to bang young ladies.” It’s one of the biggest and least spoken prejudices in the world. And every single woman has been subject to it at some point in her life. Younger women and older women alike. The market value of younger women isn’t better because younger women are better. She’s just as disposable as older women. And that’s what is truly sad about the entire thing.

    Yes, there is a small subset of men who are serial killers. However, there is a large subset of men who routinely look at porn and Playboy of women half or less their own age and are running all over the internet making sure women never forget how ugly and useless they are after 30, even more so over 35. We aren’t talking about a small subset of men. We are talking about a general mentality men have adopted toward women that is reflected in how men treat women and how they are talked about.

    I’ve come to learn that while most men don’t say these things to my face in the real world, that this must be how men really feel about women, revealed online.

    I have absolved myself of no responsibility. It is totally my responsibility to find men who treat me well. Finding those men are hard to come by. That’s all. A good man is hard to find. They are needles in the haystack. I see all this misognism directed to women for aging and it just leaves me feeling a little more world weary that’s all. A little less trusting and accepting of men as they are less unaccepting of women too.

    I do believe in karma. But I don’t believe in the worldy concept of Karma where if you do 10 good deeds, you get 10 good deeds in perfect measure. I don’t think all murders go to hell and I don’t think all good little Jews and Christians go to Heaven. Karma is bigger then our earthly understanding of judgement and what we think someone else deserves.

    I might have been emotionally immature when I was younger, but so where these men! I had the grace of age on my side. What did they have as their excuse?

    On top of that, I’ve learned what it means to be a much better partner to a man. To care about his need and to be giving, kind, vulnerable and accepting of him. But does that matter? No. What matters is that as i get older, my value goes down even though I’m actually a way better partner to a man then i was when i was younger. I should be seen as an appreciating value! But I’m not. Sadly, this means men don’t value me and they clearly aren’t valuing themselves by asking women to simply be young and cute to be with them.

    I’ve grown so much more as a human being. I volunteer my time to the community, I donate money to various organizations, when my Dad got sick I was there everyday to help my Mom and him. When my brother got sick, I packed-up my bags and uprooted my entire life to be there for him. I moved to another state for him. I stop traffic to pick turtles up out of the street. I don’t even want to kill a spider. I pick up little old ladies for church. I buy random meals for homeless people and I don’t even tell my friends and families I do these things. So don’t tell me you know what kind of karma I deserve. I don’t even know the answer to that one.

  11. 41
    Karmic Equation

     
    Allheart,
     
    It does sound like you’ve matured and paying it forward. That’s great. Be patient. Keep being a good person and good will happen to you.
     
    As to men, Allheart, I’m not sure if you’re being dramatic for effect or if you’re dramatic IRL. You write eloquently, but full of Durm and Strang. Your writings depress me. And the men I’ve met in my life—and I’ve met many more than most women, not as lovers, but as people, due mostly to my volleyball past, where I played on a lot of coed and men’s teams. And now because my favorite hobby is pool, which is a predominantly male pursuit—none of them would want to be with such a heavy-hearted person.
     
    If it is with this heaviness that you view men and how you come across to men, it’s possible your heavy soul scares them away (this is not about physicality, I don’t know your shape, this is about your persona).
     
    Like attracts like, Allheart. Most good men are not full of Durm and Strang. Most are very well-adjusted and generally optimistic. Even the ones with tragic pasts. If they’ve survived them and are good men now, they don’t tend to be heavy hearted.
     
    If you want to find good men, you need to find a way to be more light-hearted. 
     
    Like attracts like.

     

    1. 41.1
      AllHeart

      Karmic, you don’t know my shape *or* my persona. All you know is what I write here and that only represents one small part of me.  It would be like only being shown one star in A Starry Night by Van Gogh and saying you know what the whole picture is.
      I’ll always speak from my heart. Whether they make you feel warm and fuzzy or if they don’t. The conclusion remains that men intrinsically believe they hold more value over women. It’s a mentality that’s existed for a long time throughout history. Men have always believed they held more worth over women and have always strived to maintain some power over us. 

  12. 42
    JoeK

    Allheart you’re writing just like certain other women who comment here – you denigrate those men who come to this blog to be helpful. Yes, some of the men who comment here could do a better job of removing emotion from their comments, and to be a little more kind. But by and large those of us who are here are trying diligently to be honest and understanding about relationships, and contribute something meaningful and useful.
     
    The message repeats itself. Men intrinsically have more value than women.
    Nice job misrepresenting what is said here. Besides that, this is utterly illogical – it is WOMEN who provide the valuation of men – if men are being valued more than women, then logically it is WOMEN who are making that valuation. 
     
    If you wish to make this assertion, then look to the women you know and blame them for it, not men. The reality is your statement holds no water – men and women are valued differently. Which, I guess could be said to be the crux of much of what Evan says – don’t expect men to value the same things in women that women value in men.
     
    Besides, it’s a pointless comparison since men and women value different things.
     
    Why are you interested in dating men if you think they’re so bad?
     

    1. 42.1
      AllHeart

      Joek, can you show me where I’ve denigrated men in my comments? Do you not see how denigrating it is of women to say we have less market value than men because we get older? Do you not see how denigrating that is?
       
      I believe there are a few small handful of men here that truly want to help women. But most aren’t here because of some altruistic desire to help women alone. They are here because they are worried about *their* needs first, they are not worried about women. They are here because they are angry and hurt at women and they want women to change but they don’t want to work on themselves in the process.
       
      Did you know that Evan started out relationship coaching to men but there was such a lack of interest from men to work on themselves or their relationships he began coaching women instead? What does that tell you about the measures men take and women take when it comes to their relationships? Men like this site because it’s about women having to work hard for their relationships, change, mold themselves; it’s not about men having to work hard. 
       
      You only further prove that some men don’t want to have to work at their relationships when you say things like, “look to the women you know and blame them for it, not men.” You believe women are to blame, not men. Women are to blame because men devalue us based on our age.  Women should take all the responsibility for everything. Including being the ones to primarily work on their relationships while guys like you come to this board to tell women all the ways they can change for you and while you have no responsibility to work on yourself.  Again, how are you helping women???? Because I don’t see how blaming women for everything, even on how men themselves choose to judge women is helping us ladies. Please explain it to me. 
      How is it helpful to women anyway to talk about no matter what a woman accomplishes in her life, how she grows as a human being, how she develops, that none of it matters because she isn’t 25 anymore? How exactly does that help us ladies? So that we are driven into fear and get married when we are 21, ill-prepared for it and possibly picking terrible mates because of it? How is that helping us? 
      You know what would be nice? f we were loved, cherished and accepted for exactly who we were as we aged by good, kind, wonderful men. 
      “If men are being valued more than women, then logically it is WOMEN who re making that valuation.” Not really, the idea that men hold more intrinsic worth in the world was long ago conveyed in our society through a long standing history that validated men’s worth and rule over women. Women were denied rights men were allowed to have. And today, that power struggle is still alive and well.
       
       

    2. 42.2
      SparklingEmerald

      JoeK – I don’t understand how when men say that highest value is in her early 20′s, then it declines, I don’t know how you can say women are to blame for that, because we value men ?????  You comment make no sense to me.  The fact is, some of the men, don’t come to this blog to “help” but to laugh and scorn the women on this blog, who are only coming here to try and understand and fall in love with men.   Some men say that they get more valuable with age, and women get less valuable.  What does that have to do with women valuing men ?  Should we just sink to their level and start treating them as if they are worth less ?
      I am really thinking about staying off this blog, not because there isn’t good advice, but because of the men who come here, not to learn about relationships, not to help, but to gloat at us women who are struggling to find love.  I just feel like my pain and frustration are bringing pleasure to such men, and I just don’t want to feed their Schadenfreude.   If you don’t believe me, read the comment in the entry, why do women in their 30′s not want to date men in their 40′s. 
       
      The fact is, there is a prevailing attitude that men are more valuable as they age, and women are less.  I judge people as individuals, and judge their worth on multiple criteria that includes their character, naturally for a romantic partner, I want to find him attractive, but I don’t think his total worth or anyone’s is defined by their physical attractiveness.  Character counts, and as far as I’m concerned, a George Clooney look alike with no character wouldn’t be worth a thing to me.

  13. 43
    Dave

    Ehh, I hate the word “creepy.”   Wish we could drop it from our lexicon.   It’s so dumb.   In any event, I say forget trying to find the perfect mate, your own age, younger, or older.  In this day and time it’s almost impossible.  Better to be alone.

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