Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

Male vs. Female Sexual Market Value

As you may know, I’m really big on statistics, metrics, heuristics, anything data-driven that is going to bring objectivity to something as subjective and emotional as dating.

I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.

Or that 95% of the country practices premarital sex.

Or that only 14% of men are over 6 feet tall.

And 5% makes over 100k.

Numbers put reality into perspective, and, from there, we can make healthy and informed decisions about love.

Nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women.

But nowhere do things get messier than when discussing the “sexual market value” of men and women. We’ve touched on it in many forms before. Why older men want younger women. Why older women want younger men. How many emails men and women get on dating sites. The availability and merits of 7s vs. 10s. Lori Gottlieb’s seminal book, “Marry Him: The Case for Settling For Mr. Good Enough” is pretty much a meditation on this very subject. Gottlieb discovered that while she was in her early 30’s, passing up on the 7’s and holding out for a 10, by the time she reached her late 30’s, the 10’s were only interested in women in their early 30’s. Furthermore, the quality of the men available to her as a 39-year-old who wanted her own biological children was closer to a 5 (in her mind). Yes, I know these numbers are gauche, but we’re trying to establish a pattern. Not based on our feelings about how things should be or what would be right and just and fair. But simply by observing the behaviors and desires of men and women.

Enter Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart. I haven’t met Ms. Walsh, but I feel like we’re probably kindred spirits, because she decided to post this long, wonky post with a number of charts and graphs.

The premise of her post was to establish which gender, if any, had greater sexual market value – which is to say, more enduring appeal to the opposite sex over time. The term market value seems crude, but it’s the best possible term because, like economic market forces of supply and demand, these are completely self-regulating. If a man thinks he can date a 10, but no 10’s want him, then, evidently, he’s overestimated his sexual market value. If a woman dates online and thinks she can date a man 10 years younger because she “looks good for her age”, but no men 10 years younger give her the time of day (apart from requests for NSA sex), then, well, she, too, has overestimated her sexual market value. Essentially, whether you’re a 3 or a 10 is not really your decision. The market will tell you what you can command. Just as it does with your own salary. Anyone who holds out for a 500K salary but finds that no one is willing to pay it will remain unemployed for a really, really long time. Anyway, back to the original premise:

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

I think we can also agree that, for whatever reason, older men seem have more dating options than older women. There are exceptions, of course, but there are more 50-60-year-old men dating 5-10 years younger than women dating men 5-10 years younger.

I think we can agree in general that young women remain particularly appealing to men, even when it gets a bit creepy.

Based on this, there is a perception that men have greater sexual market value than women. This opinion is particularly espoused by hardcore men’s groups, because it’s an appealing narrative. They say something to the effect of: “American women are way too picky, way too masculine, way too selfish. But due to biology, I can be that 45-year-old guy who is hooking up with 27-year-old women while 45-year-old women turn into angry spinsters.” These are not my sentiments, but we do see them occasionally expressed in the comments section below, usually by dorky guys without much game who play the “biology” card early and often. Enter Susan Walsh. Using data from 200,000 people on OkCupid, Walsh takes on these men who overestimate their appeal to younger women and gives them a good old-fashioned scientific smackdown, concluding:

Mean male sexual value over 30 year period: 40.0

Mean female sexual value over 30 year period: 39.9

By this unbiased calculation of actual data, the male and female of the species exhibit the same sexual market value.

The OKCupid chart has good, reliable information for both sexes. Women need to understand that the male curve lags the female curve by about five years, is flatter and a little wider. That means you’ll have more competition from younger women as you age. You will never be hotter than you are at 22, so plan accordingly.

It’s important to recognize that some men display a motive for artificially elevating the SMV of aging males, so ignore any wisdom characterized as “red pill.”

In my own coaching materials, I always suggested that a woman’s peak was 27-30 in terms of her desirability to the most men, and that a man’s peak was 35-39. I’m going to stick with that premise, since I think OkCupid’s data skews young. In other words, while a 22-year-old may be hot, most 41-year-old quality men would never actually date or marry one. So to all of the readers in my core demographic: 35-55, have no fear. As long as most 22-year-olds are creeped out by 40-year-old guys, there are no shortage of men out there for you.

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

26
35

Join 7 Million Readers

And the thousands of women I've helped find true love. Sign up for weekly updates for help understanding men.

I hate spam as much as you do, therefore I will never sell, rent, or give away your email address.

Join our conversation (185 Comments).
Click Here To Leave Your Comment Below.

Comments:

  1. 31
    Karmic Equation

    I think that comparing a man’s SMV with a woman’s SMV is misleading. Why? Because women can get sex any time she wants. It would be more accurate to rate women on her RELATIONSHIP Market Value (as Fusee says). And since men, presumably, can get relationships any time they want, HE should be rated on his SMV. In other words, let’s rate women on their power to obtain Relationships and let’s rate men on their power to obtain Sex, hence RMV for HER and SMV for HIM–to determine the respective gender’s MATING market value (we have to come up with a new term :))

    If we use those equivalent metrics to rate men and women’s Mating value, then the charts make more sense, right?

    Beautiful women in the 20’s can get serious (i.e., monogamous) relationships with men into their 80’s.

    Successful or charismatic men in their 30’s can get sex from women 18-80 (imagine Raquel Welch as the 80yo, fellas).

    In that case women in their 20’s have the highest Mating value for men of any age. Because most men will have a serious relationships only with women with whom they have a sexual relationship.

    Men in their 30s have the highest Mating value for women in their 20s and 30s. Because most women will only have sex with men with whom they enjoy a serious relationship.

    So for all the women here who’ve stated that they’re more attractive now than in their 20s (I include myself in this group) — our RMV is not as high as it was in our 20s, even though we’re more f*ckable now. Sorry to have to burst that bubble.

    And men in their 40’s who believe they have a high SMV value still, you may get to have sex with the occasional drunken 20yo or one on the rebound from a breakup from her jerk bf who never bought her anything…But your value to her is NOT because of your high SEXUAL market value, it’s because of your high RELATIONSHIP market value.

    The dudes in their 30’s are the ones who corner the market for babes looking for relationships, and thus getting the corresponding sex that goes along with it.

    What a downer, huh?

    However, if you look at this from a positive perspective, it’s not bad at all. It’s very aligned to reality as well as what most men and women want from each other.

    40-something men need to keep their relationship value high (have a job, be consistent, communicative, faithful, high emotional IQ is a bonus) in order to maintain a high SMV to the hottest/youngest women.

    40-something women need to keep their sexual value high (e.g., look the best they can outwardly) in order to have high RMV for the highest-RMV value men she can attract. But women do have it harder. If you’re 40 and insecure, why would a man date you rather than a 20 and insecure woman? So in addition to looking good on the outside, a 40yo woman has the responsibility to be relationship-worthy on the inside, e.g., secure, confident, kind, and nice, at a minimum. Else the high RMV value guy is going to disappear on you.

    So yes, this theory would support that women in their late 20’s better lock up the highest RMV men they meet then. Because it gets more difficult to get the relationship she wants as she ages. She gets to call the shots in her 20’s. He gets to call the shots after 30.

    1. 31.1
      Karmic Equation

      Ok. I re-read what I wrote and I seem to conflate the SMV’s and RMV’s.

      Here’s the Cliff Notes clarification of #31.

      WOMEN seek men with high RMV with whom to have sex.

      MEN seek women with high SMV with whom to have relationships.

      Because men value a woman’s SMV over her RMV, WOMEN need to have high SMV in order to have the best chance at getting into a relationship.

      Because women value a man’s RMV over his SMV, MEN need to have high RMV in order to have the best chance at getting sex from the hottest women.

      Because men and women do not put the same importance on RMV and SMV, we need to use a new gender-neutral rating system that combines the gender-specific criteria, which I’m coining as Mating Market Value (MMV):

      Male MMV = High RMV (inner attractiveness) plus reasonable SMV (outer attractiveness)

      Female MMV = High SMV (outer attractiveness) plus reasonable RMV (inner attractiveness).

      It behooves both sexes on improving the aspect/criteria that the opposite sex is seeking for the best chance at dating/mating success.

      1. 31.1.1
        tamara

        Very intelligent post, thanks for your insight. I love this blog–Evan is so smart and so are many of the commenters, I discovered it a few days ago and keep reading it at work, lol!

  2. 32
    starthrower68

    I was married and a mom at 24 so I don ‘t really know the answer to this question per firsthand experience, but are 20-something women really that creeped out by 40 something men?  I see a lot of couples where the guy is significantly older than the girl.  I could be wrong but I think the gals in their 20’s will happily date a guy in his 40’s, especially if he’s very good looking.  I think they might be creeped out if he’s pushing 50.

  3. 33
    Peter 51

    When you are a tall woman, the pool of taller men is small.  When you are a clever woman the pool of clever men is small.   When a woman has a independent business, the pool of men with a successful independent business is small.  To say nothing of income.  Age becomes less of a discriminating factor.   When you are all lumpenstudenten together, it is a different story. Regular readers know where I am coming from.  Extreme age differences (decades) are actually more stable in marriage than the conventional 2 year difference. Presumably, when large age differences are dismissed by the parties involved other RMV factors have been seen to be important.  Having said that RMV is not SMV which is about hot bodies and conspicious status (Nobel prize say).  There is a dreadful confusion between RMV and SMV in a world where we are all strangers to each other.  If we had grown up in the same village there would be no such confusion.

  4. 34
    Jess

    Evan- this is the exact reason why women feel no choice but to lie about their age and subtract some years (especially when online dating). Even Patti Stanger did it and it helped to land her current boyfriend. I am 31 (quickly turning 32) and it’s alarming to me that men are so critical of age. We are in the age of IVF and egg freezing so that we no longer have to worry about the biological clock issue.. or at least not worry as much! So, I have been lying and say I’m 29 in my profile.. is it akward to explain this to men, yes, but I feel like men have forced us by their superficiality on age to lie! My grandmother of blessed memory lied about her age when dating my grandfather as he claimed he liked  younger women.. but when they were in love, he didn’t care! So I’m starting to think it’s better if we women lie and tell men we are younger so as to avoid being downgraded in a man’s mind! It’s better to be honest.. however, what you are saying is scaring me and I think a lot of women feel the same way.

    1. 34.1
      julia

      Jess-I was online dating from 30-32. There was never a shortage of high market men messaging. Stop lying about your age, confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old.
       

  5. 35
    Jess

    One last comment: I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30’s- 40’s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20’s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value. In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET! Women who reach 30’s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group.. yet whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood , women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!?? It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20’s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!

    1. 35.1
      Tom10

      @Jess
      “I do find it soo irritating and hypocritical that men is their 30′s- 40′s are considered at their ‘peak’ and want to date women in their 20′s, but a woman who is at that age is considered ‘declining’ in her value”
       
      But who considers men in their 30s and 40s at their “peak”? Women do, as they are the ones that choose to date these men. Therefore, where is the hypocrisy? Men can’t just unilaterally declare themselves at their peak when it suits them.
       
      Conversely men often get irritated by the dating power of women in their 20s, but who gives these women that power? Men do.
       
      Therefore, although I understand your irritation ultimately I think it’s misplaced.
       
      “In an age when men and women are both seeking fulfillment and success in their careers, wouldn’t you think mens’ and society’s opinions would change in this department and people would want to date within their Own AGE BRACKET!”
       
      Non-sequitur. Men who seek a fulfilling and successful career don’t care that women seek the same. Therefore what motivation have men got to change their opinion in this department?
       
      “Women who reach 30′s and 40s who are still single are single for the same reasons that men are single in this age group” 
       
      Not necessarily – there are many different reasons why different men and women are still single at that age. It would be unwise to assume that all other single people are single for the same reason that you are single.
       
      ”whereas men are rewarded for holding out their bachelorhood, women who build up their careers and just haven’t met the right guy yet are considered not as valuable in the dating market!??”
       
      This is because men and women value certain traits differently; therefore men and women are not rewarded equally (in dating) for building up a career. Men are only “rewarded” by women, if women decide to do so.
       
      Conversely women in their 20s are considered more far more valuable than their male peers, even though these men have been studying/working just as hard to build their lives. Does this seem fair either!??
       
      “It is time this outdated notion be tossed away. It starts with women in their 20′s dating people in their own age bracket and stop dating old men!! Maybe then this whole age discrimination will go away”
       
      And how do you propose to control the behavior of every 20-something woman in the world? I imagine it will be quite difficult to establish some sort of demographic cartel involving hundreds of millions of women.
       
      “and people will only date people their own age as it’s supposed to be!!”
       
      But who gets to define how “it’s supposed to be”? If we are “supposed to” only date people our own age, are we therefore also “supposed to” date only within our own race? Our own class? Our own education/height/financial groupings?
       
      The thing is Jess, there is no “supposed to be” – it’s a free world out there. So each individual is entitled to choose their own prerogative when dating.
       
      “What you are saying is scaring me” (#34)
       
      I do take this point. Dating sites and blogs have to deal in general concepts, therefore this can sometimes lead to a disproportional focus on one or two specific criteria, whereas real life judgment involves collating dozens of cues and characteristics.
       
      I agree with Julia #34.1: “confidence is attractive. And 32 isn’t very old”.

  6. 36
    kelli

    men in their 40s and 50s have to seek younger women if they want to start a family. if men haven’t had children by upper 40s/50s, they realistically cannot date someone in their own age group in the hopes of starting a family. that is why many of them gravitate to women in their 20s and early 30s. and women have to know this – if you’re 35+ you won’t attract a guy in your age group as easily, especially if he wants a family. the solution as I see it is for women in their 30s and 40s to go 10+ years above their own age; those men will still find you young and attractive, they (likely) won’t want kids for whatever reason, they will have money and status and developed hobbies, and they will look how they look, so you can judge their appearance for what it is.

  7. 37
    julia

    So I think the lesson is that if both women and men want children they should get serious a little later. Just like a 38 woman who suddenly realizes she has little time, a man shouldn’t wait until he’s 50 to decide to start a family. Sure he might physically be able to father a child but finding a partner he can do so with will be challenging. 
     

  8. 38
    AllHeart

    There was a time when I dated older men. I was looking for a daddy-figure. I was looking for the kind of relationship that didn’t require too much of me. In my relationships with older men, the men never expect very much from me. I got away with lots of stuff. Including never, even in the course or an ongoing 6+ month relationships, sleeping with some of them. (I was not really attracted to these older guys sexually, I was attracted to feeling taken care of.) These were men who where very successful and had ivy league educations. They gave up a lot of their self-respect for my youth even though on the outside that’s not what other people saw at all. At the time, I just liked being taken to fancy places and feeling taken care of. When I was younger, I couldn’t figure out why I ultimately didn’t really feel super attracted to them. Other then the fact that they were older, I simply didn’t respect them because they were older guys dating me, a younger girl. What woman in her right mind would set her up for that kind of epic fail? What woman would commit herself to a life with a man that saw her as a depreciating value?

    Then as I got older, and more emotionally mature, I wanted to bond with men on an entirely different and deeper level. Dating men my own age required more of me as a human being, as a woman. I had to actually grow and care about the needs of someone else which made me a better partner and woman. Partnerships with men my own age had more value. We worked together as a team. I didn’t have to worry about them aging me out of my worth to them. They knew they and I, where so much more then what the world qualified us for.

    Today? I would be open to dating older men but I simply feel too bitter after a decade of seeing, reading and experiencing how men treat women based on age. Reading the comments here is enough to turn any woman off any older man. It’s one of the biggest prejudices in the world. And yes, it’s a prejudice and a a boaderline hate-filled one to tell another human being that they have less inherent value then you.

    I certainly think older men can and do have a lot of value. But the fact that men seem to believe that women hold less value then themselves has made me sad, scared and worried for the future and very hesitant to get into a relationship with an older man, even one I am attracted to. And I’m not worried that I won’t find someone. No. I’m worried about how easily men degrade women on the premise of age but use all these facts and statistics about why it’s perfectly acceptable to hold onto the idea that women are less then men.

    And that is ultimately what this debate comes down to. Take away all the fluff this is about men, in this day and age, setting a dynamic in the world that makes women less then them. And that’s got nothing to do with biology.

    As for the comment Evan made about men who are creepily attracted to young girls, that’s not a construct of men and their biology. That’s a construct of our messed up world and what men have allowed themselves to get tied up in. Because biologically, women are actually most fertile at age 26. So it doesn’t account why young girls would be the focus of lust unless something was really broken in our society.

    So there you have it. My take. I’d be open to older men. But how can I be open to men when I see so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?

    And I ask this with all sincerity Guys, you want women to love and respect you. how can a woman do that if you are forever telling her she holds less worth then you do?

  9. 39
    Karmic Equation

    Allheart,

    I’m sorry that you sound so disillusioned. Disillusionment is very saddening.

    Have you really been the object of “so much hate, dislike, put downs about me as a woman and my age?” All the men you’ve met, male family members, male friends, male colleagues, male strangers? *Most* of them treat you so poorly?

    Or is it ALL the men you’ve dated? It can’t be ALL because you admit that in your youth men treated you like a queen and you got to call all the shots…and lost respect for them because they were doormats to you.

    I would believe that a subsection of men in your life may have treated you poorly. There is also a subsection of men in the world who are serial killers. Are all men serial killers? Another subsection that are rapists. Are all men rapists?

    You’re creating unnecessary drama with this black and white thinking and absolving yourself from your own responsibility in choosing to date those men who think about or treat you poorly. And if you believe in Karma, that whatever goes around comes around, it could be in the larger scheme of the universe your callous treatment of men in your youth has come full circle and now you face the wrong end of that karmic revenge now as you’ve aged.

    Depressing thought.

    However, the solution isn’t to further entrap yourself in that kind of depressive thinking and actions.

    Believe that you will find good men, and you will find them. You have to have faith. Do good deeds unrelated to dating, because karma isn’t always tit-for-tat. It’s an accumulation of all the good you’ve done that at some point comes to roost. Pay it forward and be as good a person you can be to all the good people in your life. Avoid the bad people.

    Eventually things work out.

    But *all* men aren’t your problem. Only some men are. Avoid them. Suss them out faster. Problem solved. Own your choices so that you can own your outcomes.

  10. 40
    AllHeart

    Karmic Equation, read this blog. Look at the things a lot of men are saying about women. Look at this posting about women’s “market value” vs men’s. Look at how casually it’s referenced that it’s boarderline okay when older men have attractions to young girls because must of them are.

    The message repeats itself. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. Men intrinsically have more value than women. This is what men appear to believe. Most men, based on this research shared here and the responses to this blog show that men enjoy throwing women away on some level while they do not want to be throw away at all.

    Women are subjected all day long to this. Through porn, through women’s magazines, through men’s magazines. The message is all the same for women, “You are a less worthy member of society as you get older. You don’t deserve a life filled with love, sex, romance after a certain age when you can no longer be a little baby-maker. Men are more worthy members of society, love, sex, romance and procreation. They can have babies until they are 60 so they should be able to bang young ladies.” It’s one of the biggest and least spoken prejudices in the world. And every single woman has been subject to it at some point in her life. Younger women and older women alike. The market value of younger women isn’t better because younger women are better. She’s just as disposable as older women. And that’s what is truly sad about the entire thing.

    Yes, there is a small subset of men who are serial killers. However, there is a large subset of men who routinely look at porn and Playboy of women half or less their own age and are running all over the internet making sure women never forget how ugly and useless they are after 30, even more so over 35. We aren’t talking about a small subset of men. We are talking about a general mentality men have adopted toward women that is reflected in how men treat women and how they are talked about.

    I’ve come to learn that while most men don’t say these things to my face in the real world, that this must be how men really feel about women, revealed online.

    I have absolved myself of no responsibility. It is totally my responsibility to find men who treat me well. Finding those men are hard to come by. That’s all. A good man is hard to find. They are needles in the haystack. I see all this misognism directed to women for aging and it just leaves me feeling a little more world weary that’s all. A little less trusting and accepting of men as they are less unaccepting of women too.

    I do believe in karma. But I don’t believe in the worldy concept of Karma where if you do 10 good deeds, you get 10 good deeds in perfect measure. I don’t think all murders go to hell and I don’t think all good little Jews and Christians go to Heaven. Karma is bigger then our earthly understanding of judgement and what we think someone else deserves.

    I might have been emotionally immature when I was younger, but so where these men! I had the grace of age on my side. What did they have as their excuse?

    On top of that, I’ve learned what it means to be a much better partner to a man. To care about his need and to be giving, kind, vulnerable and accepting of him. But does that matter? No. What matters is that as i get older, my value goes down even though I’m actually a way better partner to a man then i was when i was younger. I should be seen as an appreciating value! But I’m not. Sadly, this means men don’t value me and they clearly aren’t valuing themselves by asking women to simply be young and cute to be with them.

    I’ve grown so much more as a human being. I volunteer my time to the community, I donate money to various organizations, when my Dad got sick I was there everyday to help my Mom and him. When my brother got sick, I packed-up my bags and uprooted my entire life to be there for him. I moved to another state for him. I stop traffic to pick turtles up out of the street. I don’t even want to kill a spider. I pick up little old ladies for church. I buy random meals for homeless people and I don’t even tell my friends and families I do these things. So don’t tell me you know what kind of karma I deserve. I don’t even know the answer to that one.

    1. 40.1
      stoney

      I am new to this site so sorry for the late post.   I find this thread to pretty much be the epitome of the difference between men and women and how we think about and perceive things. 
      We are different and we value different things. Our values are based partly on gender and partly on our being a patriarchal species. Once you accept that we are different it becomes easier to be less judgemental of the opposite sex and and what we perceive as being unfair. 
      Men are generally desired by women for their ability to protect and provide. Which is why even though men in their 20s look better , men in their 30s and 40s are more desirable to women. Women are desired by men for looks and sexual attractiveness.  And its why even though women in their 30s and 40s are more of everything a man should want women in their 20s are more desirable.   It is not right or wrong for men to view women as sexual objects first. It is just how it is. It is not wrong for women to view men as providers and sugar daddy’s first. It is just how it is.  As all of the data and age ranges and charts show , in the end we usually get post our initial superficial attraction and really value who the person is and not what they look like . 
      Humans are patriarchal by nature. It is hammered into our belief system from the day we are born. From religion , our friends , and family. Men lead , women follow.  Again it’s not right or wrong. It is just how it is. 
      When all its said and done men and women want the same thing. We want to find someone or someone’s to share our lives with because that is ultimately we base our own self worth on.  We just go about accomplishing it in completely different ways.  
       

  11. 41
    Karmic Equation

     
    Allheart,
     
    It does sound like you’ve matured and paying it forward. That’s great. Be patient. Keep being a good person and good will happen to you.
     
    As to men, Allheart, I’m not sure if you’re being dramatic for effect or if you’re dramatic IRL. You write eloquently, but full of Durm and Strang. Your writings depress me. And the men I’ve met in my life—and I’ve met many more than most women, not as lovers, but as people, due mostly to my volleyball past, where I played on a lot of coed and men’s teams. And now because my favorite hobby is pool, which is a predominantly male pursuit—none of them would want to be with such a heavy-hearted person.
     
    If it is with this heaviness that you view men and how you come across to men, it’s possible your heavy soul scares them away (this is not about physicality, I don’t know your shape, this is about your persona).
     
    Like attracts like, Allheart. Most good men are not full of Durm and Strang. Most are very well-adjusted and generally optimistic. Even the ones with tragic pasts. If they’ve survived them and are good men now, they don’t tend to be heavy hearted.
     
    If you want to find good men, you need to find a way to be more light-hearted. 
     
    Like attracts like.

     

    1. 41.1
      AllHeart

      Karmic, you don’t know my shape *or* my persona. All you know is what I write here and that only represents one small part of me.  It would be like only being shown one star in A Starry Night by Van Gogh and saying you know what the whole picture is.
      I’ll always speak from my heart. Whether they make you feel warm and fuzzy or if they don’t. The conclusion remains that men intrinsically believe they hold more value over women. It’s a mentality that’s existed for a long time throughout history. Men have always believed they held more worth over women and have always strived to maintain some power over us. 

  12. 42
    JoeK

    Allheart you’re writing just like certain other women who comment here – you denigrate those men who come to this blog to be helpful. Yes, some of the men who comment here could do a better job of removing emotion from their comments, and to be a little more kind. But by and large those of us who are here are trying diligently to be honest and understanding about relationships, and contribute something meaningful and useful.
     
    The message repeats itself. Men intrinsically have more value than women.
    Nice job misrepresenting what is said here. Besides that, this is utterly illogical – it is WOMEN who provide the valuation of men – if men are being valued more than women, then logically it is WOMEN who are making that valuation. 
     
    If you wish to make this assertion, then look to the women you know and blame them for it, not men. The reality is your statement holds no water – men and women are valued differently. Which, I guess could be said to be the crux of much of what Evan says – don’t expect men to value the same things in women that women value in men.
     
    Besides, it’s a pointless comparison since men and women value different things.
     
    Why are you interested in dating men if you think they’re so bad?
     

    1. 42.1
      AllHeart

      Joek, can you show me where I’ve denigrated men in my comments? Do you not see how denigrating it is of women to say we have less market value than men because we get older? Do you not see how denigrating that is?
       
      I believe there are a few small handful of men here that truly want to help women. But most aren’t here because of some altruistic desire to help women alone. They are here because they are worried about *their* needs first, they are not worried about women. They are here because they are angry and hurt at women and they want women to change but they don’t want to work on themselves in the process.
       
      Did you know that Evan started out relationship coaching to men but there was such a lack of interest from men to work on themselves or their relationships he began coaching women instead? What does that tell you about the measures men take and women take when it comes to their relationships? Men like this site because it’s about women having to work hard for their relationships, change, mold themselves; it’s not about men having to work hard. 
       
      You only further prove that some men don’t want to have to work at their relationships when you say things like, “look to the women you know and blame them for it, not men.” You believe women are to blame, not men. Women are to blame because men devalue us based on our age.  Women should take all the responsibility for everything. Including being the ones to primarily work on their relationships while guys like you come to this board to tell women all the ways they can change for you and while you have no responsibility to work on yourself.  Again, how are you helping women???? Because I don’t see how blaming women for everything, even on how men themselves choose to judge women is helping us ladies. Please explain it to me. 
      How is it helpful to women anyway to talk about no matter what a woman accomplishes in her life, how she grows as a human being, how she develops, that none of it matters because she isn’t 25 anymore? How exactly does that help us ladies? So that we are driven into fear and get married when we are 21, ill-prepared for it and possibly picking terrible mates because of it? How is that helping us? 
      You know what would be nice? f we were loved, cherished and accepted for exactly who we were as we aged by good, kind, wonderful men. 
      “If men are being valued more than women, then logically it is WOMEN who re making that valuation.” Not really, the idea that men hold more intrinsic worth in the world was long ago conveyed in our society through a long standing history that validated men’s worth and rule over women. Women were denied rights men were allowed to have. And today, that power struggle is still alive and well.
       
       

      1. 42.1.1
        stoney

        It does not denigrate women to say they lose value with age because the value lost is not the value of the woman as a person or as a partner it is the value of a man’s sexual desire.  Sexual value and personal value are 2 different things. Saying  Men gain value does not denigrate men in their 20s . For the same reason. If women placed a higher value on how much they desired men sexually Then men too would decrease with age. Women determine what value men have to them and Men determine women’s value to men. And we each determine our value to ourselves.  
        Women are not driven into marriage at 21 by men. Women are the ones who want to get married. Men are usually dragged into marriage kicking and screaming. And women are cherished and valued by the men who love them when they take the time to pick the right man. Which is severely hampered by the whole girls like bad boys years.  Women generally love a man for who she wants him to be and not who he actually is during these years.  

    2. 42.2
      SparklingEmerald

      JoeK – I don’t understand how when men say that highest value is in her early 20’s, then it declines, I don’t know how you can say women are to blame for that, because we value men ?????  You comment make no sense to me.  The fact is, some of the men, don’t come to this blog to “help” but to laugh and scorn the women on this blog, who are only coming here to try and understand and fall in love with men.   Some men say that they get more valuable with age, and women get less valuable.  What does that have to do with women valuing men ?  Should we just sink to their level and start treating them as if they are worth less ?
      I am really thinking about staying off this blog, not because there isn’t good advice, but because of the men who come here, not to learn about relationships, not to help, but to gloat at us women who are struggling to find love.  I just feel like my pain and frustration are bringing pleasure to such men, and I just don’t want to feed their Schadenfreude.   If you don’t believe me, read the comment in the entry, why do women in their 30’s not want to date men in their 40’s. 
       
      The fact is, there is a prevailing attitude that men are more valuable as they age, and women are less.  I judge people as individuals, and judge their worth on multiple criteria that includes their character, naturally for a romantic partner, I want to find him attractive, but I don’t think his total worth or anyone’s is defined by their physical attractiveness.  Character counts, and as far as I’m concerned, a George Clooney look alike with no character wouldn’t be worth a thing to me.

      1. 42.2.1
        starthrower68

        SE, you win the internet. :-)

  13. 43
    Dave

    Ehh, I hate the word “creepy.”   Wish we could drop it from our lexicon.   It’s so dumb.   In any event, I say forget trying to find the perfect mate, your own age, younger, or older.  In this day and time it’s almost impossible.  Better to be alone.

  14. 44
    40 year old red flag

    @ Evan:
    Evan I think your good but be honest with yourself and your readers.
    You are soft balling it in to women.
    I am one of those 40 year old men hooking up with 20 year olds constantly.

    If you can, and many can, 40 year old men aim for a 20 year old age gap.

    Once women hit 27, yes we pursue them but I dare say no chance of marriage.

    Woman ARE the HOTTEST at the interval 18-22.

    Be honest.          

     

  15. 45
    Thanks to my Mom's genes

    Hullo all!
    Hmmmm… couple of things: Men are intimidated by really beautiful women, even as they are attracted to them too. This means they value other traits when it comes to settling down, like someone who makes them feel good, comfortable and valued. Also, really? 22? Nah, not anymore. Women peak in beauty in their late twenties and early thirties. Maybe not all women, but a lot, especially if you work out etc. :) I know this to be fact for several friends. Good heavens! 22! If you really want kids try to get married (not sure how you do that… but anyway) by your late twenties or early thirties, but don’t panic at 22. LOL 

  16. 46
    Emabarassed

    I never, ever thought I would have this problem, but here goes…I am a 55 year old attorney who genuinely believes he has fallen in love with his 28 year old secretary. I have felt this way for three years, and she knows it. We have even talked about it. I joined a gym and got into the best shape I have been in for 20 years, and have held out hope that the age difference was not insurmountable. It sounds like this hope has been in vain. I came across this site looking for some evidence that maybe women really could fall for older guys, but no such luck, huh? 

    1. 46.1
      Peter 51

      Embarassed

      We have a 24 year age gap.  The deal didn’t close immediately but after 6 years we are stronger not weaker.  If she has fallen for you, nobody else’s opinion matters very much.  We walk down the street together without attracting unusual attention. Nobody gives us a second glance in social situations.  If there were rifts in the relationship, that might alter.  If one of us looked awkward about being in the other’s company people would notice points of difference.  They don’t.  Between each other age difference is unnoticeable.  My first wife was 5 years older than me.  That was unnoticeable too.  In may experience after knowing someone as a friend for a few months, you cease to notice age (once adult), race, accent or any other such marker on a daily basis.

      However consider children.  We are not, sadly but realistically planning any more.   In modern Euro-America, women of 28 are not usually mothers.  Your woman will want children.  Are you ready for fatherhood?  Some men are vigorous at 75, most are not and more than a few are dead.  And really you should think about being 80+ at the 2nd graduation ceremony as you are not yet even married.  Even more important, how old will you be dealing with a 14 year old girl or a 16 year old boy?  How did your father and grandfathers last?  Could they have handled teenagers in their later years?

      It’s not age difference that matters but age itself is a different consideration.

      If you are her boss, your SMV is already colossal.  It seems to me that height beats age too. 

  17. 47
    RustyLH

    “I think it’s important that you know that 95% of people eventually get married.”
    Marty Friedman’s numbers appear to be wrong, according to a government website where this appears to have been tracked for decades.
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/02news/div_mar_cohab.htm

    The likelihood that divorced women will remarry has been declining since the 1950’s, when women who divorced had a 65 percent chance of remarrying.  Data for 1995 show that women who divorced in the 1980’s only had a 50 percent chance of remarrying.

     
    So it appears that it isn’t even close to 95% that get remarried.

    1. 47.1
      starthrower68

      Probably the underlying tone there is we can’t. And that may be true for the majority of whatever the percentage is.  But many also don’t want to.

      1. 47.1.1
        RustyLH

        True, but the same is true for men. My dad did not get divorced but was widowed. For over 18 years now he has remained single and now that he is over 70, he isn’t likely to want to change that. When I asked him a long time ago why he wasn’t pursuing that, he said that he liked not having to answer to anyone. he could come and go as he pleased. If he was hungry, he would eat what he wanted or go to the restaurant that he wanted. Many divorced men today feel the same way. And why shouldn’t they. Most of the things men wanted from marriage, they are being told they are wrong for wanting. Want a younger prettier wife..bad bad man. Want to be the leader of his home…bad bad man. The truth is, our grandfathers had it better. They went to work for 40 hours, and then came home to dinner ready to be served, and a clean house. For a few hours a couple weekends a month, he might have to do some “manly chores” around the house and yard. Mow we work more than 40, and also typically have a longer commute than our grandfathers since more of them lived in small towns than people do today. Yes the population has shifted to big cities, look it up. So after working more hours and driving longer to get to and from work, we come home to more chores. We have to help cook and clean. We have to help more with the kids. Etc… By the time you can take a breather, it’s time to go to bed. Our grandfathers had a better life. Well one thing we can do is eliminate a lot of responsibilities by being single.. This gives us more money to eat out with. We have less chores to do. Now I am back to a few hours every couple of weeks. I wash my single plate and silverware and the one or two pots right after I eat. Takes me less than 5 minutes, and that’s without a dishwasher. I eat what I want. I do what I want. Nobody to holler at me. Nobody to bad mouth me. Nobody to Make demands of my time.
        Now that said, I would be OK with getting married to the right woman. If she doesn’t come along, I am fine like I am. It really does come down to preferring to be alone than being with a woman I don’t want.

        1. starthrower68

          Which oddly enough, is not altogether unlike why many women choose to stay single. Neither side has the market cornered on anything.

  18. 48
    RustyLH

    “Haha. I don’t understand why do people bother with such things. People work so simple. We’re just animals with thumbs afterall. The Alpha male/beta male model works in us, just like in most other animals. Females seek the attention of the ones with the best gene pool they wish to reproduce with, while males try the same, however, since male genes are the dominant ones you’ll be okay with someone half decent even but still aim to get the best you can, but in the end you’ll be somewhat satisfied, since your sole purpose is to reproduce and pass your genes on, and while females desire to reproduce with the ABSOLUTE best, they aren’t ever going to be satisfied with anyone, really. A female would rather share the alpha male with other females, than to end up with a beta male, but that is the point where society comes in. Society makes beta males able to reproduce, therefore preventing beta males from rebelling and trying to attack alpha males to take their place(basically how the wild works) and this is how our desires integrated in our ever evolving modern lives, creating the species we are today. However I am not quite sure if allowing betas to reproduce has a positive or a negative effect on our basic gene pool, but I’d say it’s positive (don’t take me wrong though, I’d take myself as a beta male most likely). However, this allows us to be great and make progress and evolve higher as a species. (We’re getting to an interesting stage of our social evolution though, which could twist some stuff up with having this sexual freedom, however as long as people having multiple partners and such things are being looked down upon, this isn’t going to change.

    So yeah, don’t take me for granted though, I’ve just read a bunch of books.”
     
    There is a relevant thread on of all places, a gaming forum where most people are older and a lot of highly educated people hang out.  Both men and women hang out there and a topic arose on the Off Topic section that is relevant.  The above was written by one of the guys.  I thought it was interesting.  basically just putting everything down to Darwinism.  I am not sure I can disagree with too much of it.  It reminded me of something that happened when I was in my 20’s.
    Me and a few guys were hanging out with our girlfriends and a few of their single friends. We were discussing this guy that liked one of the single friends. This guy was a great guy in all respects, and in good shape, but he had a fatal flaw. He had almost no chin. All of the girls agreed that even with all of his great qualities, they couldn’t see themselves ever sleeping with him.

    I suggested that me and a few of the guys should tell him to get it fixed with cosmetic surgery. Not cheap but would it be worth it?

    Well Holy Smokes, you should have seen the reaction by the women. They were very very against guys getting plastic surgery. Why? Well we teased it out of them. In a nutshell, Darwinism is the answer. Several of the girls openly used the word “trick” or tricked.” As in by doing so he would be tricking a girl into a relationship with him and they would have children, and that would not be fair to her. As in that small chin might make an appearance in one of her children. Not fair. She’s working so hard to get the best she can and then this guy would come along and trick her into thinking she was getting something she was not. This was the very real conversation going on.

    I noted that women do the same thing with cosmetic surgery and also by using make-up, hair color, fake nails, push-up bras, pantyhose, etc… That was met with a quick, “But it’s not the same.” Well of course it’s not. Men are happy just to procreate, but women want to procreate to produce the best possible offspring they can.  Even without that goal, such as later in life, those preferences don’t disappear for either gender.

    Anyway, they were all in firm agreement that men should not get cosmetic surgery except in medical situations and even then they felt that it should be a medical procedure only, and enhancements should not be done. At least not to the point that they truly elevate the person’s overall attractiveness.

    These women were truly terrified of finding a really hot guy only to find out that he was really more of a average to below average guy who had cosmetic surgery. Their solution? Meet his family, and look at family photo albums before having kids.
    Talk about mercenary.  LOL

  19. 49
    Elta

    A girl’s sexual value decreases dramatically after her early twenties.  This is a fact, it is accepted everywhere by anyone whose ego is not damaged by it.

    1. 49.1
      Julia

      Its true, no one wants to sleep with, date or marry a hag over 22. The highest value people tend to be those who get married at 18, right after high school.

      1. 49.1.1
        Elta

        A 23 year old is not a hag. A 24 year old is. This is a fact,  accepted everywhere/manosphere 
        (23 is early twenties/young  —   24 is mid twenties/old)

        1. starthrower68

          Elta, you are a prime example of why I wouldn’t go back to my 20’s, even if I could :-)

      2. 49.1.2
        marymary

        And gets divorced at 25 cos she’soo old.

      3. 49.1.3
        henriette

        Oh, Julia – I really like you!   We might disagree on politics but I’m glad we see eye to eye on how women should be valued.   On a woman’s 24th birthday, she magically *poof!* turns into a hag and will regret her stupidity forever if she hasn’t secured a husband by that hoary age.
         
        Of course, the divorce rate for people who marry before 25 is high but if she keeps her mouth shut, legs spread and doesn’t turn into one of those Opinionated Harridans or gain any weight, she should be lucky enough to keep her gem of a husband.   Maybe if she flirts with him, he will buy her a pair of shoes.   *sigh*   Sounds like heaven on earth, to me! 

        1. Julia

          Henriette-

          Some people come on here because they know they can kick women who are feeling down. I am not going to allow anyone to make me feel like a wilted flower. We aren’t just items to put on a shelf. The thought of women being worthless after about 23 is laughable and not rooted in reality. If you want love and companionship, there are plenty of men out there to provide it to you, at any age. You just have to be willing to accept it. 

    2. 49.2
      starthrower68

      Not only do I not have an ego about it, I readily and heartily admit that I’m in the negative SMV numbers, with no hope of ever breaking even.  I’m not sure that’s an entirely bad thing, either.

      1. 49.2.1
        RustyLH

        I wouldn’t say that. Identify your worst physical features and then do something about them. Maybe just diet and exercise is the key. Maybe a nip and tuck is called for. What’s funny is that if we were only allowed to buy one car in our lifetime, we wouldn’t think twice of doing needed repairs to it, but we often think there is something wrong with improving our looks. It’s not even logical to think that way. Most people get braces and the simple fact is, it’s absolutely not necessary to do so except in the most extreme cases. In almost every case it’s a cosmetic procedure only. Millions of people get along just fine never having had braces. So why is it that this is so accepted and done, but getting some liposuction, a tummy tuck, etc… is so rarely considered? Many men could also benefit from it. I’ve seen many men and women who would benefit greatly from just a nose job. I just saw a woman’s picture yesterday whose nose was simply too big, and manly looking for her face, and so i did a quick image of her with a small nose and holy smokes, she would be a 10 with a nose job, no kidding! She was seriously cute in every way except that her nose drew all attention to it.

        Anyway, just wanted to note that we can always do something about the way we look, if we want to, whether it is diet and exercise, or cosmetic surgery, or even something as simple as updating our look. Many women, and men get trapped in a time capsule with their hair style and clothes.

        1. starthrower68

          My ten year debt snowball plan is more urgent than a nip and tuck.  I am working on weight loss but not because I am concerned about where I fall on the SMV scale. I have long since made peace with the fact I will never again be nubile and young (nor do I want to). Taking care of myself is merely common sense and wisdom. Aging gracefully means different things for different people.  

        2. RustyLH

          That is a healthy way to look at it. It really is more about being healthy than anything. It would be better if we as Americans led healthier lives all along. But as a country, we work to much and live too little, and somewhere in there we learn to love food as an escape and don’t spend enough time doing active things.

    3. 49.3
      RustyLH

      That’s subjective. Her reproductive value decreases but so does a man’s. I have no interest in having kids, so this is not a concern to me. In fact, a 22 year old is not as high value to me as a 38 or 44 year old who does not want kids. I’m sure I’m not alone in this thinking. I am actually turned off when I see a late 30’s/early 40’s woman who never had kids, listing that she wants them. Can they have kids? Sure, but is it smart to do so? No. Plus, I am not looking to be put on the back burner again. I want a woman who will concentrate her attention on me.

    4. 49.4
      tamara

      Heh, u do know that we’re all replying to a troll who’s probably not even a female right? If there was a way to actually ascertain who ‘Elta’ was, I’d wager USD1000 that it is not some young hot female. It’s not that there isn’t some truth to what ‘Elta’ says, it’s that there’s no reason why anyone would state it this way unless he/she desperately needed some attention.

      But the topic itself is an interesting one. Because some yrs ago I worked for a company that supplies young women/models for entertainment-ish reasons–car shows models, cocktail waitresses, etc–and recently have had to do abit of such work because the relatively quick cash is useful when I’ve returned to part-time college studies and can only work part-time. So women in such lines of work are unfortunately v much more aware of their physical visual ‘value’ than other women. (If u want to put it less delicately, it has a lot to do with sexual market value, even though sex isn’t involved, because the women are generally hired to appeal to men’s eyes–male customers at car shows, male high rollers in the casino, men at vip parties etc.) In such a job, the ladies are often actually priced differently, even among those doing the same job. Probably based on beauty, age, popularity. 

      From my experience, there’s generally a gradual decrease in the fees the girl can command based on increased age, but it does not decrease ‘dramatically after her early 20s’. 

      In fact, interestingly, the women commanding the highest fees in this company are 24 and 27. There are many 18 and 19 year olds in this company, because it’s a popular job among college girls who need some part-time work before getting their degree; yet they’re not the top girls. I’ve worked with the 27-year old girl, to call her a great beauty would be no overstatement, she looks like a dark-haired Rosie Huntington Whitely. So although I’ve heard some guys here say men prize youth over beauty, I’d say it’s not true, youth and beauty are linked concepts and men prize both highly, often prizing beauty over youth. Otherwise the guys forking out money to hire these models for their business establishments or private parties etc would all be hiring the 18/19 year olds–some of whom are very pretty–instead of paying more to hire the 24 and 27 year olds who in this particular company appear to be the 2 most beautiful women. (The fees of these top 2 girls are up to 3 times the fees of some of the 18/19 year olds). I do see women above 30 still being hired in this company, but not many–but I think that’s partly because my country is still more traditional and usually it’s only socially acceptable when unmarried women work in this line; women above 30 usually have full-time ‘normal’ jobs.

      Sorry for the long post, but this is one of the (few) topics on which I think I’m more aware than average, thanks to specific experiences. I do think women must be aware that generally sexual value does go downwards after a point, so that we appreciate the opportunities we have when we’re younger. But don’t listen to ppl who obviously have nothing else to do but try to insult others. (Seriously, who comes to a blog Focusing on clients who are above-30 successful career woman and calls them hags? Lol)

      1. 49.4.1
        Peter 51

        An ocassional employee of mine was at 27, the top billed non Arab belly dancer in the biggest  《they are very big) night club in the Lebanon at the age of 26. She held this spot until she was 30which was two years longer than expected.  Bahrain is less racialist.  is less racists and the audience, mostly Saudis, more focussed on drink. In her Off Visa 6 months she was top billing in a smaller, drinking club.  She lasted until she was 32, two years ago. Now she is a trolley dolly in the first class section of a long distance train seevice in Russia.  She speaks Russuan, Arabic-Lebanese, Greek, Turkish and English so she has her non ornamental uses.  Her degree in Media Studies doesn*t count for much in Russia as TV producers are the daughters of the rich – long unpaid internships.  She is worried about being 40.  Meanwhile she says she*s never been happier.  She still has an audience. (Entertainers in Lebanon are protected by the morals police. There is a different visa for hookers – selling sex is legal). She says there was never such pressure.).  So a 34 year old still has S SMV for First Class passengers. Some intellect also required.

      2. 49.4.2
        RustyLH

        It would be interesting to see this company’s website if it has the profiles of the women on there. I can say a few things on this. It is not unreasonable to think that the slightly older girls would command more money. While looks are important, they are just one part of the puzzle. How outgoing are they. Do they act uninterested, as if being pretty, and there, is enough? Or do they make eye contact and flirt, and get men to stop into the booth? Also, the 24/27 year old would be more experienced, and more importantly, I might, as a business owner, have already used them, or saw them in action, and so I might already know that they do this very well. A 24 to 29 year old, should still be able to have looks just as good as an 18 year old, but she will also likely be more confident and thus she will be more likely to interact very well with the crowd. She may even be embracing this as a career where as the young college girl sees it just as a way to make some money for school.

        I wouldn’t even expect an 18 to 19 year old to command nearly the highest salary, even if they were the prettiest girl in the company. I tend to believe that there is a whole lot more as to why those two command more money than just their looks. Even if a prettier 18 year old joined, I think she wouldn’t make more money.

      3. 49.4.3
        tamara

         @Peter51: Wow she can speak 5 languages–I’ve only met one person in my whole life who can speak 5 languages. Yeah I’m actually not surprised she could be the top dancer in the nightclub till her early 30s, since women in their early 30s can still look v young; I assumed most women who left jobs in the nightlife in their early 30s did so more because the lifestyle became tiring. Dancing till the early hours of the morning regularly can be taxing. When I had a nightlife job right after high school, and it didn’t even require half as much energy as a dancer, I wasn’t happy despite the high pay because the working hours disrupted me from having a normal life like my friends, so it was the main reason I left. 2 of my friends worked with me for a while because they thought it seemed like a good job, they both left within a few weeks, haha.

        @RustyLH: Yes there’s a website but I sure am not gonna show u because I’m on there as well! hahaha. About the non-appearance factors, some social skills are involved but I doubt that’s much of a factor here in terms of explaining the higher fees of those 2 slightly-older women. Because as someone who first joined after high school, those basic social skills are often already present in an 18-19 year old. Those who lack these won’t last long anyway. I still remember a girl I worked with, she was rude/snooty/b-tchy to a man when he hadn’t bought a drink she’d been paid to promote, turns out he was the owner of the club we were working at and she was forced to leave and banned, lol. :p

        I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. I think the main factor explaining the varying fees in this company are the different levels of beauty. I think it’s actually a clearer comparison of pure SMV than some other looks-related jobs, eg in fashion modelling the top girls are often in mid to late-20s, but there u need years to learn how to pose to get good photos, to build a reputation that gives companies the confidence to hire u. My acquaintance is in her late 20s and one of the top models in the country, she recently became a spokesmodel for a global skincare brand. She’s been modelling for a decade and she didn’t suddenly get the job because she’s more beautiful/sexy than before (in fact, she’s not even a conventional beauty), but probably because she’s established her portfolio.

        But yeah I’m sure the somewhat more confident/mature demeanor of the older girls is a factor too. And I think age matters in SMV, but not much as long as its within a certain fairly-youthful range…I hope this discussion isn’t discouraging to older pple who read this. I’m actually spending time writing this because I’m trying to be encouraging to pple who may take Elta’s words to heart.


        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKa1YeoUcLo
        The woman in this Flower by Kenzo ad is 37 here; a Taiwan actress. I became fascinated with her after seeing her open the Cannes festival 5 years ago. She still looks fresh, but doesn’t look 19 anymore; yet her beauty and sexiness is hardly diminished from 5 years ago or even photos I saw of her in her 20s. (Interestingly though, I’ve heard she’s never been considered very pretty in her own country!) Of course she is exceptional and most women do not ever look so lovely, but my point is that hitting the mid-30s isn’t the death of beauty and SMV.

        1. RustyLH

          @Tamara,
          I don’t actually disagree with you on what you have said.  In fact it ties right into why a woman can  easily be a successful Cougar if she’s just looking for sex or a short term relationship.  See, if I am a 30 year old guy, and all I really care about is sex at the moment, and I have my choice between a woman who is 43 and a solid 10, a woman who is 33 and a 9, and a 24 year old who is an 8, of course I will choose to have the STR with the 43 year old.  My thinking of course will be that if her looks fade in the next year or two, or if I find a 10 that is younger, then I bail on the 43 year old.
           
          I think where some women get confused is in the fact that this is different than if I am looking to get married.  In that case, as the 30 year old guy, the 24 year old now becomes the top choice.  There’s no guarantee that the 24 year old will always be pretty, but at least there is the possibility that she will have 20 years of being pretty before she gets to the age of the older woman.
           
          I think both men and women do the same thing but in different ways.  If you compare a man looking at cars on the car lot and there is a mix of cars only a year or two old and some cars that are much older, which car you would choose might depend on whether you are buying or renting.  If renting, your considerations are more lax, while if buying, you are looking for stability…you need that car to be dependable, to get you to work every day.  So if buying, you might buy the 2011 Toyota Tacoma.  Not as sexy as some on the lot but dependable.  But if renting, you might take the 1969 Ford Mustang, which is far sexier but doesn’t have as many miles left on it.
           
          Que some woman who doesn’t understand the point being made so she will say something like, “Women are not cars.”

  20. 50
    tamara

    P.S. I’m not saying men Only care about a woman’s beauty and youth. But among the more shallow considerations, these do matter, and fortunately for women, beauty can last quite a long time longer than youth does.

    1. 50.1
      RustyLH

      In an age where women have the ability to make their own money, I think caring about a man’s status, wealth, college degree, etc.. is just as shallow. The truth is, just like looks, they tell nothing about whether the person has a good heart, will be faithful, etc…

      There was an old game we are all familiar with called Dungeons and Dragons. Long story short, it eventually made its way to computer games, and the thing is, as you build a character, there are trade-offs. You aren’t going to have a character with high scores in all traits. That mirrors real life. If a man is a workaholic, he may be wealthier, but what is the trade off? Does he feel his wealth entitles him to sleep with his secretary? If a man is a powerful man, is rude and uncaring below the surface?

      Women want men to look past the good looks, or lack of good looks, and judge them solely on who they are as a human being. But how many women do that with men? I can assure you that it is extremely rare, if not nonexistent. Have you ever gone on a date and not asked a man what he does for a living, or where he went to school? I mean, seriously, have you ever gone on a first date and did not actually try to assess whether the man was worth getting involved with and by that, I mean, his material worth. Was he going to able to bring enough to the table? The opposite of this would be to not even care about that stuff at all, and concentrate solely on whether you actually enjoy his company.

      1. 50.1.1
        tamara

        Oh I agree that caring about a man’s financial status is about as shallow as caring about a woman’s looks. I’m attracted to highly intelligent guys, and even that is something I feel abit guilty about sometimes. I think I’d be more attracted to a guy who had intelligence at a 9 and character at an 8, than someone whose intelligence was a 7 and character at a 10. This bugs me because I feel deep-down that the character should have a much higher weightage than intelligence.
         
        Um actually I have gone on dates and not asked a guy what he works as or where he studied, but I have to admit I’m expecting him to reveal it himself slowly. :p But I wouldn’t ask that myself because I wouldn’t wanna hurt his feelings. I think it’s quite inevitable that pple start out accessing each other on some shallow characteristics; there aren’t deeper feelings yet.
         
        I feel that depth of character and intelligence are faaar more impt than financial worth of a man, and I’m not just saying that. My ex-bf is from a very wealthy background, and he’s revealed himself to be truly the worst person I’ve ever known–extremely shallow, and nasty and disrespectful to me when I refused to get back together. He literally messages me every day with rude messages about me, and about my friends and family who he doesn’t even know. All the money in the world can’t make me go back to him, and yet he has an ex-gf who desperately wanted to marry him, I guess because of his money. I think women like this need their heads examined.
         
        But Rusty, I remember seeing a comment from u saying that men didn’t mind dating younger women even if the women were attracted to them for financial reasons, because u said men are used to women judging them based on money anyway. So does it even matter to guys why the woman likes them? If a man had 2 choices–an 8 who was a gold-digger,and a 7 who he felt genuinely loved him–which do u think he would pick? Don’t laugh at me, but I sometimes feel worried that my male childhood friends will end up with women who don’t truly appreciate them as pple. :(

        1. RustyLH

          But Rusty, I remember seeing a comment from u saying that men didn’t mind dating younger women even if the women were attracted to them for financial reasons, because u said men are used to women judging them based on money anyway. So does it even matter to guys why the woman likes them? If a man had 2 choices–an 8 who was a gold-digger,and a 7 who he felt genuinely loved him–which do u think he would pick? Don’t laugh at me, but I sometimes feel worried that my male childhood friends will end up with women who don’t truly appreciate them as pple.

           
          Yes, that is what I said.  To an extent it is expected that all women will care about what a man does for a job, how much money he makes, etc…  For some women, this is all important.  I think that is more common than not, especially in the U.S.  I raise that point when me or somebodyelse brings up foreign women and somebody will inevitably try t point out that they are only after a green card (most are not, and most that are never make it past Immigration), or they will imply that the women is only after money/a better life, so I will point out that this is no different than American women.  In fact, American women are far more likely to demand that the man have a degree.  If I go on American dating sites, every woman wants at minimum, a Bachelor’s degree.  If I go on foreign sites, it’s almost never required.  That’s very attractive.
           
          Think of it like this.  What if you lived in a place where men weren’t happy unless you had both a pretty face and a sexy body.  So you work your butt off in the gym and diet, to have that.  But then you go to this magical new place where the guys are just happy if you have good hygiene.  While they can appreciate a sexy body or pretty face they don’t require it.  So actually, they appreciate it even more if you do have it. 
           
          Which group of men seems more appealing to you?
           
          As to which a guy would choose, I myself would rather step down a notch for better personality than take the worse personality for better looks.  In other words, I still want somebody who is attractive to me, but how attractive is not as important as how much I like her as person.  Personality really is more important.  But I’m no different than a woman.  While you may also want that, you aren’t going to be with a guy who is hideous looking to you, just because his personality is great. 
           
          The thing is to take care not to allow yourself to put so much emphasis on looks that you are being unrealistic.  Some men and some women do this.  They don’t actually have the looks to get somebody with the looks they want.  Think of it as Rosanne Barr holding out for Brad Pitt.   Not always that extreme of a difference, but you get the idea. 
           
          I think the sexual revolution has hurt women in this way.  Men are far more likely to have NSA sex with somebody they would never want a relationship with…for physical beauty reasons.  By that I mean a man who is a 10 is far more likely to sleep with a 7 just for the sex than a woman who is a 10 doing the same thing.  Well, if you are a woman who has had multiple 10’s sleep with you, and you get it in your head that you have what it takes to get one of those 10’s, as a result, how will you ever get your mind wrapped around the idea that a man who is a 6 to 8 is where you need to be looking for an LTR?  Same for if the man was wealthy. 
           
          I’ve seen this in action.  I’ve watched it happen from the sidelines, and I’ve seen it first hand.  Women understand this concept also.  Would you feel comfortable dating a man who you knew to have dated a string of Playboy Playmates?  Wouldn’t you wonder why he’s with you and wonder if he pines for one or more of them?  I’ve known women who said that if they found out a guy had dated a playmate, she wouldn’t want to date him for that very reason. 
           
          One of Howard Stern’s guys made the statement that he would never date a porn star, for one reason only.  He said he would always know that she had been with multiple men that are very well hung, and so he would always worry that he didn’t impress her in that area.  Howard reminded him that end up with a non-porn star who had been with multiple well hung guys too.  He said yeah, but with them I don’t know if they have, but a porn star it is a known fact that she has.  It might be an unreasonable fear but it is true. 
           
          I think we all like to think that we are the best person our mate has ever had and that is why they chose us.  But often, that really isn’t the case.  Some people think it’s OK to be honest with their mate about this fact.  I don’t think it is.  What good does it do?  I’ve been with a guy better hung than you.  I’ve been with a woman who was prettier than you.  Etc…etc..etc…  It serves no good purpose, and so it’s better left unsaid. 
           
          All of that said, I know that some men will choose the better looking woman with the worse personality, but I think they are no different than the woman thinking she will tame the bad boy.  He thinks she will become nicer by being with him.  He thinks that a lot of her personality comes from dealing with all the AH’s out there.  He’s almost always wrong just like women are almost always wrong thinking they will tame the bad boy.

        2. tamara

          @Rusty: I agree that women shouldn’t sleep with a few 10s and then think that they have what it takes to marry a 10. I don’t think a high percentage of women make this mistake though, women are quite smart creatures, u know, haha.
           
          Hmm I know what u mean about wanting to feel like u’re the best that your partner has ever dated. I saw a comment from u about how Italian (and other European) women tended to be seen as slimmer/sexier than American women; it’s smthg I’ve heard before. So when I found out a man I was dating was Italian, I was actually abit less interested in him. Italian women’s average BMI is one of the lowest in Europe, it has actually Decreased since the 1980s; it’s 24.8 in 2008. I wouldn’t call 24.8 slender, but anyway they’re among the slimmest women in Europe, and it makes me feel like my figure would be less appreciated by an Italian man than, say, a British man. (Avg Brit woman’s BMI: 26.9). Plus, there’s the Italian man’s reputation for being a lothario. But I feel so guilty/stupid for liking a man less for 1)his countrymen’s reputation and 2) the slimness of his countrywomen.
           
          Yup I agree I wouldn’t wanna tell someone I’m dating that someone else I dated was better in such-and-such a way, it seems cruel! It seems so much more fun to build up your loved one’s confidence. One v useful thing I learnt on this blog was when Evan mentioned that guys want their gfs to think they’re sexy–I never knew guys even cared about that! (It wasn’t the focus of an article, just mentioned in passing) I think women are fairly used to being complimented on our looks, but guys aren’t so much, because pple just focus less on men’s appearance. Now I try to compliment guys I know when I notice they look good; not necessarily guys I’m dating, but male friends etc. 
           
          Anyway, maybe we shouldn’t post much more on this page since the discussion has slightly gone off a tangent from the original topic of SMV. :p
           
           

  21. 51
    Selena

    When a man on the internet and starts writing about how he prefers women younger than himself, not only prefers, but also gets them – I wonder. Okay, so why don’t you have one?  Why aren’t you out and about with one? Snuggling on the sofa? Getting busy?  Anything really involving actually being with a younger lover rather than writing-  often at length – about your preferences and your ability to “get”?
     
    Is it that you’ve dated younger women, but so far can’t get one to “stick”?  Why don’t they “stick” do you suppose?  You ignore the question.  Instead, you site examples from the animal kingdom. Historical references. The couple YOU  know.  Still…where is the younger lover you so prefer, and can get… or rather GOT? 
     
    If you had one, you would not spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet trying to convince women –  of all ages – why they SHOULD PREFER MEN OLDER THAN THEMSELVES.  For this reason alone, it looks like, No, you are not attractive to younger women. If you were, you’d have one. You have a fantasy involving how you could/should have a younger woman.  
     
    And I’ll tell you, the likely reason you don’t have one is not because of your age. It’s because of your attitude.  We see you.  We meet you. Your “tell” is obvious and early. That’s what creeps us out. That, and the fact you are so arrogantly oblivious to the fact that we don’t share your preference/fantasy despite how adamantly you insist we should.

    1. 51.1
      RustyLH

      I am going to assume that you are talking to me.  If you are, the answer is simple.  OK maybe not simple.  Even though I have more attention from women in their 20’s and mid 30’s does not mean I want to get married to them.  My target range is not a girl in her 20’s.  I don’t assume that a girl in her 20’s wants to marry somebody my age, but you assume that just because she goes on a date, or has sex that she is after marriage.  Maybe she’s not interested in marriage and just wants some NSA fun, be it dates or sex.
      What I would prefer is a women no younger than late 30’s, or in her 40’s.  But with these women, I am after something different.  An LTR.  Well that changes the game because so are they.  Right now I am in school.  For them, that doesn’t seem to be very appealing.  At the same time, I’m so busy with school, that I don’t really date much.  I write long posts yes, but I type fairly quickly, and it’s in between stuff I work on for homework.  But I do need to slow down on this.  I start an additional class soon.
      NSA works better for me at the moment because I don’t have the time to put into actually courting for a LTR.  But I am also 100% fine with never getting married again.
      I have noted in other posts that unlike some men who have posted on her, I do not buy into the notion that a woman’s peak value is 22, and goes down at 30, and further down at 40.  For each man it will be different.  For me, as I noted, the peak is 40, and 30 is less, and 20 is even less than that.  I prefer younger, but for marriage, I want younger but not too young.  I’ve already stated that for me, the range is a few years younger down to about 12 years younger.  If I could snap my fingers and make it happen, she would be right around 40 give or take a couple of years.  From there, I would prefer older than that as opposed to younger.
      Also, I should note that I am not trying to convince any woman that they MUST do anything.  I can also see a woman’s point when she is 40 and a 60 or 70 year old guy is hitting on her.   But I don’t see an issue with 50 to 52.  But that’s just my preference and I know that there are women in that age range open to it. Mine is the same problem women here complain about.  The ones that want me, I don’t want, but the one’s I do want don’t want me, and I know that the biggest issue is that I am in school.  That would not be an issue if I were 28 and they were 20.  But it’s different when you are 50, and she is 40.  They want the guy they can take to a party who when asked will say, I work in _____ not I am going to school for _____.  So for now I concentrate on school and what fun I can have.
      I am sure that there were periods in your life when if the whole point was to have a boyfriend, or husband tomorrow, you could have made it happen, but the guys interested weren’t the right ones…and that’s not any different than my situation right now.
       
      I really sense a lot of anger from women about this issue.  It’s like they all watched Oprah and bought into the notion that their next husband would be younger than them, and they are really angry that the men aren’t really stepping up to the plate on that.  Sorry…don’t know what to tell you.  I can only assure you that my next wife, if I ever have one will not be older than me.  Other than that, I can’t tell you much about her, like how old she will be, which country, etc… though I am also not looking for a womb, so not having or wanting kids/more kids is a plus.  Ideally, at a minimum, her kids will be close to leaving home so that we can concentrate on each other.
      What other men do is up to them, though it seems they aren’t interested in marrying an older woman either.  We’re all just a bunch of old fuddy-duddies who are set in our ways.  And we like it that way.   haha

  22. 52
    Guest

    I think a lot of the statistical “market value” information is only really relevant online. In the real world, people seem to be attracted to others with similar attractiveness, and even similar facial features. There is some sorting out according to age because people in certain age groups congregate in some predictable ways (i.e. Baby Boomers at Jimmy Buffett concerts, twenty-somethings in bars near college campuses, etc.). 
     
    I’m a 45 year old woman, and online I tend to attract attention from men 5 to 15 years older than I am (probably because I showed up in their search results when  they set a filter to include women in my age group). They are almost never a match for me in terms of educational attainment and personal values. 
     
    Out in the real world, the sort is much more evenly distributed by age – and better-matched to my educational background and values. In real-world situations I attract men across the age spectrum. Most recently I’ve noticed interest from a couple of men in their 50s (who btw I would NEVER go out with b/c they are both potheads – and any drugs at all is a deal-breaker for me); a nice (very respectable) man in his early 30s (who seems a bit shy); and a (very nice) graduate student in his mid-twenties (& of the 4 he is actually the most vocal about expressing his interest in me, probably because he has the least to lose and can take more risks). 
     
    I’m not dating anyone at this time, but I have noticed that the online market sorts out very differently from just meeting people in the real world. I work in a field where I meet lots of educated men. I don’t meet guys in bars, so maybe the bar scene is a better real-world analogy to the online dating world. However, in my particular experience, online dating hasn’t yielded better quality men across the age spectrum compared to just the men I meet going about my business day to day.

  23. 53
    Bubbles

    I’m 55. I’m hotter than I was at 22. And I was pretty good then. Please don’t generalise.

  24. 54
    Amy

    Age is a number, state of mind and a reality all at once.  What is more important to me when dating is that we are on the same maturity level.  As a matter of fact, I went on a date last night with an older man.  He is 58 and I am 38.  With 20 years separating our length of years, there was no noticeable difference in his pursuit of sex from what a 38 year old male would do.  All men have the dog in them to chase the cat and age does not stop them!  I gracefully exited the date when all he wanted to do was talk about down-there grooming habits and sex.  There are some things that never change with age, just status in life.

    1. 54.1
      Peter 51

      Amy,

      A first date!  I wish I thought that you were joking.  I don’t believe that age brings maturity.  Idiots at 8  will be idiots at 58.  Some of them, in fact, usually, the least self controlled, get slowed down by increasing infirmity and have to amend their outlook.  Passing the cookie test at 4 years old is the big differentiator.  This applies to women as well as men.

  25. 55
    Malcolm

    I’ve changed the age on my online dating profile to 99 . . . and started searching for Women who have done the same. 
    I’ll be interested to see what happens . . .

  26. 56
    Jake

    In my 40s now, I date pretty much any age within reason. 10 years older recently, and 13 years younger. No longer “looking” for commitment or marriage, but not against it if it happens.

    I will say that I would be more likely to be swayed into buying a ring for a younger woman, though too young and I would be wary, because if a 25 year old wanted to marry me, I’d suspect she was not emotionally well, ha.

    I guess I now enjoy the mystery of “who will I meet next” more than the idea of commitment. I used to really want a marriage and a family, but I’m set in my ways now. When I was younger, I kept running into the “not ready to settle down” girls. Now that they are ready for marriage, I no longer want it. Maybe I’m just out of sync with the universe.

    Recently, I had some fun times with a very hot lady 10 years older than me. So hot, that she was the kind of girl who would not have probably had to give me the time of day “back then”.
    Hey, no harm no foul, we all will play the cards we have at the moment.

    At this point, why would I marry? Sure, every year I get older, and the women get older, but the variety makes up for that. I’m okay with that, and the women I date are okay with that. Sometimes I really miss having kids, but life is what it is.

  27. 57
    ZZ

    I am in my late sixties and my husband still finds me attractive. Also, I still get approached by men, of course older men (60’s+). I think it is because I take care of myself. I stay physically active and eat healthy. I also keep mentally active by doing volunteer work, travel, and have a lot of interesting hobbies. I am also financially independent. But most of all, I am a good listener and have a good sense of humor. So, if you are no longer in your 20’s and you find this report a big disheartening, know that that life is still wonderful for women in their 60’s.

  28. 58
    annonymous

    I am a 47 yr old wm sandy blonde blue, 6ft2 230lbs, x high school sports player, active outdoors,
    I am somewhat different from the averages, between 16 and 23 yrs of age myself and many other males prefer older women, 3 to 5 yrs older, their sexual value was much higher due to thier physical build and sexual experience. I have maintained that preference but not for build mostly for experience and maturity. Commercialism controls alot of males decisions until they experience the young hottie and the needs they put in placed based on perceived market value. Its not always cheaper to keep her. If older men searched for older women who take care of themselves but do not think their value is higher than an is will find humbled beautiful great lovers. I have one 54 yrs old.   

  29. 59
    Derrick

    Ok here is the deal.  

    Im a 33 year old man with a good job at last.  Right.  

    Where to start. I have never had a serious girlfriend.  I have not had sex with more then a few women.  Actually prostitutes only.

    To be honest with you.  At 33 I have less testosterone.  I don’t give a dayum about that personality stuff.  I use to try personality to get the hot young 20’s yo.  And they simpley laughed me off.

    I don’t even notice women over about 25. As i said I have not had my fair share of women.

    So the thought of going from 0 to 60 (no pun)  just doesn’t register.

    When i was young,  all the women went with 40 + year old guys.  very few young guys got girls the same age at all.

    Like the women said who found men in their late 30’s creepy.  I find it really amazing she thinks that.  I wonder if she understands that men biologically cant find older women attractive.

    We loose potency as we get older.  Thats why horny young guys will go with older couguars.  But when we are 30, we need a young 20 yo to even interest us at all.

    Alot of women saying they look better at 30 +.  Thats great i am happy that you think that. But men don’t see what you see when they look at you.  Even top film stars at 30 who do lots of gym are still blown out of water by plain 18 year old girl.

    Men don’t go for personality.  The same way young hot girls dont go for nice guys.  They go for money, status and looks.

    Men are kinder they only really go for youth.

    I am a high quality man now. I have good job.  To be honest with you,  I want to just plan my life around holidays and visiting prostitutes.

    Modern day women have been with so many men anyway by the time they are 23.  They do crazy sex acts.  

    They have the freedom to do this.  But I also have the freedom not to choose a women like that as a serious prospect.  

     

  30. 60
    InjunJoe

    Ok, anyone who says you shouldn’t date outside 5 years of your agehas no credibility. I am 26, does that mean I shouldnt date 21 year olds? Then in one year no 22 year olds? Thats ridiculous, you should date whoever you like, not whoever is closer to your age. I am nor exclusively interested in younger women, but I think I will most likely find that younger women are a better fit for me. Furing my college years  I suffered from social anxiety and depression and dodnt get to date at all. So I am definitely not looking to settle down right now. Most women 25+ are looking for something more serious. If I meet a 21-22 year old woman who I like and is looking for the same kind of non-serious relationship, why should I not date her? You can continue to follow your arbitrary Leviticus-like rules, but I will not deprive myself of the chance to be happy based on your opinions.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>