Should Men Be Forced to Pay For Children They Didn’t Want?

Should Men Be Forced to Pay For Children They Didn’t Want?Held By Father

I’m a man who helps women understand men. Not all men. Not in every situation. But, in general, if you want to hear how honest, loyal, sensitive, successful, confident, self-aware (and self-aggrandizing) men think, this blog is a pretty good place to start.

Which is why I’m excerpting what is sure to be a controversial post that recently ran in the New York Times. It was written by Laurie Shrage, a women’s studies professor in Florida and it’s like she took the words right out of my brain. In short, while no one in the world will defend deadbeat dads who don’t support their kids after a divorce, that’s a completely different scenario than men who are forced to support a child that they never wanted to have. In her opinion – and in mine – the law should reflect this obvious difference.

“If a man accidentally conceives a child with a woman, and does not want to raise the child with her, what are his choices? Surprisingly, he has few options in the United States. He can urge her to seek an abortion, but ultimately that decision is hers to make. Should she decide to continue the pregnancy and raise the child, and should she or our government attempt to establish him as the legal father, he can be stuck with years of child support payments.”

I’ve been around long enough to know that many women have the reflexive answer that if she accidentally got pregnant, he should be on the hook for it. But that doesn’t quite hold up logically. He can’t have a say over the birth of the fetus (because it’s her body), but she can have a say about whether he supports the accidentally conceived child for the next 18 years?

“The political philosopher Elizabeth Brake has argued that our policies should give men who accidentally impregnate a woman more options, and that feminists should oppose policies that make fatherhood compulsory. In a 2005 article in the Journal of Applied Philosophy she wrote, “if women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.” At most, according to Brake, men should be responsible for helping with the medical expenses and other costs of a pregnancy for which they are partly responsible.”

Continues the author, “Feminists have long held that women should not be penalized for being sexually active by taking away their options when an accidental pregnancy occurs. Do our policies now aim to punish and shame men for their sexual promiscuity? Many of my male students (in Miami where I teach), who come from low-income immigrant communities, believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior. Moreover, the asymmetrical options that men and women now have when dealing with an unplanned pregnancy set up power imbalances in their sexual relationships that my male students find hugely unfair to them. Rather than punish men (or women) for their apparent reproductive irresponsibility by coercing legal paternity (or maternity), the government has other options, such as mandatory sex education, family planning counseling, or community service.”

Is any of this ideal? Of course not. But it’s reality. No matter what we legislate, men and women are going to get drunk, hook up, forget to wear a condom, and have to deal with the consequences of unplanned pregnancies. The question is: what’s fair? Shrage seems to suggest that the current laws are anything but.

“However, just as court-ordered child support does not make sense when a woman goes to a sperm bank and obtains sperm from a donor who has not agreed to father the resulting child, it does not make sense when a woman is impregnated (accidentally or possibly by her choice) from sex with a partner who has not agreed to father a child with her. In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.”

As the author proves, one can be a feminist, demand equal rights, and still believe that a system that penalizes men so harshly for an innocent mistake is unjust. While you are entitled to disagree with me, please understand that my whole business is about learning to put yourself in men’s shoes and find a measure of sympathy and understanding for them. By insisting that a man pay hundreds of thousands of dollars over a lifetime for a one-night stand and a broken condom, you are not indicating that you’re considering his plight at all.

Concludes Shrage, “Policies that punish men for accidental pregnancies also punish those children who must manage a lifelong relationship with an absent but legal father. These “fathers” are not “dead-beat dads” failing to live up to responsibilities they once took on — they are men who never voluntarily took on the responsibilities of fatherhood with respect to a particular child.”

Your thoughts below are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 331
    Laurie Shrage

    Hi Evan, Thanks for hosting a discussion of my op-ed on your blog. I just quickly looked over the comments and your readers make many good points. I’ve been trying to find organizations that might be taking on state laws that essentially permit men to become unwilling sperm donors, and, unlike voluntary sperm donors, are held financially responsible (it seems because they had sex with the mothers). The main worry I hear from readers is in regard to the interests of children in having at least two parents. But of course forced paternity often creates a troubled relationship between a father and his offspring. I recently wrote another piece in which I’m exploring ways for adults (who may not be genetic parents) to become voluntary parents (with or without legal parenthood status) in order to address the need for children to have responsible and loving adults in their lives (and who get along with each other): https://aeon.co/ideas/we-need-a-contract-for-co-parenting-not-just-for-marriage In short, there are more creative ways to protect children’s interests than coercing men into legal fatherhood… Laurie

  2. 332
    James

    Given the current laws regarding abortion, It’s only logical that if the woman is able to decide whether or not she becomes a mother, the man should be able to decide whether or not he becomes a father.

    I must say, however, that I believe abortion is wrong, and not fathering a child is also wrong.

  3. 333
    Michelle

    IF A MAN IS “RESPONSIBLE” ENOUGH TO HAVE SEX HE SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE ENOUGH TO TAKE ON THE POSSIBLE OUTCOMES LEADING AFTER SEX ! Also, don’t have sex with a woman you would not want to impregnate or raise a child with (just in case an “accident”) occurs.. POINT BLANK

    1. 333.1
      Chanel

      Thank you I completely agree.

  4. 334
    Denise

    What about the men that lie I am 30 weeks pregnant from a man who claimed that he had a vasectomy. I don’t believe in abortions and he will not support the pregnancy at all. Everyone like to blame it on the woman when in some cases it is not our fault. I take ownership in the fact that I shouldn’t have placed my trust in him after all those years but I did and I am in the situation that I am. He thinks that it is ok to just abandon the fact that I am pregnant. It’s not right he lied. So in this case you think he shouldn’t be placed on child support just because I don’t believe in abortions, yeah right.

    1. 334.1
      Katie

      A similar thing happened to me as well.

      I understand adoption is a difficult option, but I suggest you consider it anyway. There are all kinds of adoption options, from very open types to absolutely closed.

      The dude is being an ass, but don’t feel obligated to pay the consequences for the next 18+ years because of him.

  5. 335
    Hannah

    I’m a feminist and I agree with you. Men should not pay for a child they didn’t want. I think there should be some sort of law for example if a man doesnt want the child he should let the woman know that if she choose to keep the pregnancy she will have to be fully responsible for the child. And if she choose to terminate the pregnany then both the man and woman should pay for it. It’s fair because it’s the woman who take the decision since no one can force a woman to keep a pregnancy or terminate it but she should be aware of the partner decision on if he wants kids or not.

    Excuse my English I hope my comment make sense 🙂

  6. 336
    Chanel

    I feel if you both knowingly have unprotected sex there is no such thing as accidental pregnancy so of course the man should be obligated to pay child support if he wants nothing physically or emotionally to do with child. Especially since she wasn’t the only one to make that baby on her own.  If you don’t want a baby wrap it up and be on birth control or don’t have sex, it’s that simple.  No such thing as guys being trapped if you had unprotected sex with the girl in first place you trapped yourself.

  7. 337
    Brittani

    Big Pharma needs a birth control pill for men so they can’t use the excuse “she lied about taking the pill” problem solved.

  8. 338
    Susan DaMetz

    I agree!

    My son 23 was in a very dysfunctional relationship for 3 years. The girlfriend was drug addict numerous suicide attempts and in managed bipolar in and out of rehabs.

    He finally left the relationship and was very difficult

    now we found out she is 5 months pregnant!

     

    My son always told her he never wanted children and always used protection and she always said she also had protection

     

    now worried not not only about health of child he can’t deal with this and be connected to her and her family

    he has decided to not acknowledge child but will take paternity test and pay child support

    everyone has turned their backs on him and the words they use to describe him break my heart

    I’ve even loss friends over this

  9. 339
    Will fields

    Not saying I’m for or against abortions. But if a woman wants a child she should accept financial responsibility for it.  If not there are other options such as adoptions, if she cannot afford it and is so against abortions. There are many options for women and no options for men.

  10. 340
    Rox

    So what is the solution? How would a man prove that he didn’t intend to get the woman pregnant? But seriously, if that was the case, then no man would pay child support. All men could claim they didn’t want the baby.

    And yes irresponsible people are going to have sex, and sometimes end up with decisions and consequences they don’t want. But to say that women have more to gain is stupid. MOST women have more to lose from an unplanned pregnancy than a man. They will be responsible for that child for 18 plus years, the father can walk away while throwing a few pennies at the child. The mother is left to rearrange her life for the mistake made by two people. The woman is stuck with lower wages, and less years on the job, not the man. The woman is left to most likely live in poverty when she is older because of the consequences of having to raise a child in a man’s world. And until men can have kids, until men are legally required to take physical and financial responsibility, until men are expected to leave work for a sick child, until men are required to leave work to bond for 6 unpaid weeks to a newborn, to work with little or no sleep, to come home after a long day at work and still raise a kid, until then, men should feel lucky that their only consequence is paying child support. Don’t any of you men try to compare you having to pay child support with what most woman have to do; raise the kid and also support the kid.

    And yes it seems unfair that women have the right to get out of the mistake by either a pill or an abortion. And if the man wants to get out of the mistake he may not be able too because the woman has chosen the opposite. I understand that frustration, but how many women have kept the kid based on the man saying he wanted the kid??? And then for him to change his mind, for reasons such as when the relationship has gone south or because he is busy chasing the new one. Betcha you never thought about that.

     

    And how many women have gotta pregnant and the man never knew? Plenty. She did it on her own. So stop crying about what is unfair. Women and men have both suffered from unplanned pregnancies.

    More likely than not, women will have to deal with the consequences more so than men. No matter if you are paying child support for an unplanned or unwanted kid. It’s only money, not time, not loss of advancement, not loss of being who the hell you wanted to be, not feeling overwhelmed, overworked, underpaid, and over burdened.

    So go cry a river.

    1. 340.1
      mm

      if the girl and guy were having sex knowing both party’s were committed (wife and boyfriend in jail)  then baby appears,

      what if they used all ways to stay protection and still got pregnant

      the mother can abort pregnancy

      the mother can choose to give birth and give the baby up for adoption

      she can be the women she choose to be and handle her consequences of her decisions

      the jobs we get depends on the individual skills and talents and what they want for themselves out of life

      she knew that that baby wasnt wanted before getting pregnant yet she still had it thinking it will change his mind after that he would want to be with her. she chooses to live in poverty u stay in poverty. u can always make a situation better.

      men ,fathers ,responsible human being dont need to carry the baby for 9 months so they bond

      it took two to make the baby they should have the same wrights mom carried the baby dad should help care when it comes home  (6 weeks)together, when they call that the child is sick they should be sharing responsibility and loving it naturally ,little or no sleep to come home after a long day at work and still raise a kids is called family and if you dont want family u shouldnt have any kids

       

       

  11. 341
    Nicole Hughes

    I got pregnant in a short term relationship and I wanted my child and my ex did not want one. He had anger issues and every one won. I dumped his lame ass which I think he was wanting me to so he wouldn’t be the “bad  guy”. I had my child and he is not on the birth certificate so he does not send money which is fine. My kid never has to meet his douche bag donor and encounter his anger issues. Every situation is different and I have been judged a lot since moving back home to the south. Dudes avoid single moms like the plague but I got the pride of taking the hard road and I am veteran that once defended the freedomes of the idiots where I live so they can all get over it.

  12. 342
    mm

    i feel women are fully responsible for  getting pregnant. we have choices ,

    1 to choose who we have sex with

    2 to protect ourselves from pregnancy and diseases

    3 to keep or abort child

    your responsible for your own outcome if the choices you make you made on your own then on your own you should face consequences of your actions, being a parent that pays money is not a parent and if your satisfied with that you never loved the child in the first place and your intentions were cruel. if the father doesnt want anything to do with the child why make him by pay child support for a  child  he never wants to see again

    1. 342.1
      Charity

      Men have choices too! They choose to have sex with the woman without using protection! Grow up it takes two people to have sex.

      Plain and simple, don’t want kids than get STERILIZED, but that won’t protect you from STDs! Or don’t have sex!

      I can not believe how stupid some people are, you blame a woman for getting pregnant but when you’re both responsible for your own actions.

      Read up on http://www.cdc.gov on std facts obviously some people don’t understand about sex and consequences.

  13. 343
    Donner245

    I’m a woman. After a certain age a woman knows her ovulation cycle. Also a woman knows sperm can remain alive inside her 3-5 days. Therefore a woman knows when the best time to plan to conceive. In most cases a man DOES NOT know a woman is ovulating. Everyone says it takes 2 and it’s 50/50. I strongly disagree. It’s more like 75% woman and 25% male. There is a problem with women trying to trap men.  THAT’S NEITHER GOOD NOR FAIR.  This brings about the dilemma of unwanted children and childish support.  If the tables were turned and a possibility a women could be charged with deceit, there would be less unwanted children. Also women would stop trying to trap men. I feel a woman is irresponsible if she does not know her ovulation cycle. There is no such thing as a “surprise baby” or “it just happens” in this age of GOOGLE. There are some women who have unusual menstrual cycles. On that note I feel that woman is obligated to inform the man she is sexing. If a woman wants a child she will have it. There are too many options available for a woman to prevent pregnancy including the very inexpensive morning after pill. For those who don’t believe in birth control there’s the billings method. I’m very sure a man is willing to go in half $25-40 to purchase the morning after pill.

    1. 343.1
      Charity

      As a woman’s ovulation schedule NOT EVERY WOMAN OVULATES! She could have irregular periods!Love how you MEN know so much about women’s fertility lmfao!

      If a man doesn’t want to have children THEN GET A VASECTOMY or DON’T have SEX! Or use your hand!

      1. 343.1.1
        Donner245

        I dont know what world you live in but, this happens in real life. There are women out there who get pregnant on purpose to trap a man.  They get drunk or high and they lie. I wasn’t speaking to the responsible wonen. I expressing about the insecure, gold digging, desperate, and scandalous females out there who trap good men. If you’re not guilty of such shenanigans then your reply is irrelevant. If one is guilty of getting pregnant for selfish reasons such as to trap a man. Then shame on them.  That good responsible man does not want to turn his back on the child who was conceived by her deceit. These good men sometimes marry these scandalous because the woman refuses shared parenting.  Then they use the child as a pawn. My brother-in-law’s sister trapped a good man. They were friends first then dated 4 months and she found out he was going to break it off. So she got pregnant on purpose.

      2. 343.1.2
        Donner245

        Oh! Did I forget to mention my BSN and that I work full-time in Maternity at a hospital and PRN @ obstetrician gynecologist office. Trust me I know the odds. And trust me I have heard such conversations in the patient’s rooms.

  14. 344
    Liza

    Let’s look at it from this perspective. First of all, the baby was created by two human beings who made a mistake together. Absent the law, the father doesn’t have any medical issues to deal with, since he’s not carrying the baby, and he also doesn’t have a requirement to pay anything at all. He gets to have sex and leave, because he made a mistake and he’s not obligated. In this situation, the woman pays all the bills and have medical repercussions. Men won’t date her because she constantly has to care for the child. Motherhood is being forced on her because the father doesn’t have that requirement.

    How do you split such a thing 50/50?

    We could determine how much the average pregnancy costs, and the average cost of raising a child. Or, what we could do is have them split the bill 50/50 if each person gets to see the child for half the year. Currently I think that child support is charging massive amounts because it is based on income and not NEED. The bottom line is that the child is a responsibility and needs to be cared for by someone. If the father doesn’t want to care for the child at all, then he should be required to pay for a certain percentage of the costs, but not let the mother get off free from any bills. Without either party, there would be no child, so it’s only appropriate that they at least split the bills for what they are.

  15. 345
    Pat

    The laws requiring men to support their children, whether born in or out of wedlock, were passed by our elected legislatures, the vast majority of them male.  So perhaps it’s you who doesn’t know how most men think, Evan Marc Katz.  You certainly have no understanding of the woman’s situation, though you want her to understand yours.  A woman may hold most of the cards when it comes to decisions concerning an accidental pregnancy, but unless marriage is a viable option then they’re all bad cards – a throwaway hand in poker.  She has a choice to abort, which some women think is murder and thus will be scarred for life by such action.  She has a choice to put the child up for adoption, an extremely painful option after carrying the child for 9 months and a choice that also scars many women for life.  And she has a choice of keeping the child, which means a lifetime of obligation – emotional, financial, constraints on time & freedom – that far exceeds the child support obligation you’re complaining about.  You do realize – no, you probably don’t – that child support does not pay the entire cost of raising a child.  The woman is lucky if it pays half – it normally falls well below that.  Study after study has found it’s the custodial parent who pays the most towards a child’s support, even though she or he is not making checks out to a different household.  I was a single mother for 4 years, and that was certainly my experience.  My ex-husband did pay his child support on a regular basis, but what started out as roughly 50% of our daughter’s support fell well below that as expenses mounted, housing & child care being the biggies.  I could have taken him back to court, but it wasn’t worth it to me – especially since I was doing fine.  I’m 67 years old now, with wonderful children & grandchildren, and if there’s anything I’ve learned from life, it’s that problems that can be solved with money (like child support payments) are the easy problems.  Try facing cancer, insanity in the family, or many years of a stressed out schedule being a single parent – that is, try facing the problems that can’t be solved by money.  You’re complaining about an 18 years child support obligation?  Brother, you’re getting off easy.

  16. 346
    Charity

    He could sign his rights way,therefore he won’t have to pay child support. Let’s be honest, if you don’t want to pay child support then why are you having sex you’re before marriage?How about men get a vasectomy so they’ll never become a father. Plain and simple, don’t want to pay the consequences of having sex, then either get fixed or simply don’t have sex.

    Sex is a want not a need, no one has ever died because they didn’t get their gentiles rubbed and wet. But I guess in today’s world, there’s no STDs just pregnancy lmfao! How about get educated before you open your legs or stick your dick into random holes, because one day you’ll pay with your life. Just keep sweeping STDs under the and pretend it won’t happen to you and see where you’ll end up. Oh and condoms don’t always protect you from Skin on skin contact diseases.

    I don’t want to sound like a bitch, but seriously anything can happen when you have sex. But hey STDs don’t take a % of your paycheck, it just takes your life. What the heck your still alive right that all that matters right?

    1. 346.1
      Pat

      Here in the U.S., you cannot avoid child support by signing away your parental rights.

  17. 347
    Pepper

    The way I see it, a female can trick any guy into getting them pregnant. And then there are the accidents. But there is a legal way out of it for a man that most for get, he has the right to give up his rights as a father. He can legally sing his right way and give full custody to the mother and the mother can do nothing about it.

    1. 347.1
      Pat

      Pepper, giving full custody of the child to the mother does not relieve the father of his child support obligation. Nor does giving up his right to visitation. If she chooses to have the child, and there’s no 2nd parent willing to adopt (such as the mother’s current boyfriend or husband), then you’re stuck regardless of whether you play an active role in that child’s life. But then, so is she – the mother. Most woman do not relish being a single parent and it costs them too, even with child support coming in. That is not to say NO woman will purposely get pregnant as unwise as it is.  You just have to be careful to make sure one or both of you are using effective birth control.

  18. 348
    anon

    im a guy… im in this boat right now, and theres not a fucking sausage i can do, second time in my life, currently considering become gay

  19. 349
    Marissa Chaseau

    Men should pay for their kids its needed to help

  20. 350
    Orkin

    Should a man be held responsible for support even if he explicitly does not want to have a child? That is the question that all of this really boils down to. So lets look at what we have right now:

    -Right now a woman can put down any mans name on a birth certificate, and if the man does not pay to have a paternity test within 30 days (two years in some states) to dispute it, he is held responsible for support and insurance for the next 18-22 years, even if he is proven not to be the biological father.

    -Right now there are several cases where men have used a condom, or only engaged in oral sex to explicitly not make a baby. But the woman goes and takes what she has in her mouth or what is in the condom and inseminates herself. The man is responsible for child support and insurance for the next 18-22 years. This has actually happened, more than once, look it up.

    -Right now some women are getting $10,000 per month or more, from very rich men who made a “mistake”, even with women who might of been “on the job”. Now you tell me where on earth does it cost $10,000 per month to raise a healthy child? Honestly a national average should be computed and that should be the basis for support orders.

    -Right now a man can have his licenses revoked, liens put on their houses, passports revoked and even be put in jail if they miss even one payment (depending on how much it is).

    -Right now paying support has nothing to do with child visitation, a man has to petition the court separately in order to insure visitation rights.

    -Right now women are given automatic custody and support in more than 90% of child custody cases. I seriously doubt that 90% of all the women involved in these cases are just so much better for the child’s well being. Equality be damned.

    Yes, I am a little ticked off. I met a woman, we dated for 3 months, despite birth control she “became pregnant”. I tried to get married (societal pressures), she didn’t want to get married( after all she was still in the middle of a divorce). At first she was going to get an abortion, then she decided adoption, then when she found out it would be twins. So she, (not me), decided to keep them. Plus she got the house from the ex, $3,000 a month in alimony from her ex, and an additional $2000 in child support from her ex, so why not?

    I supported her financially before the twins were born, and I paid every payment, on time for the next 18 years, I even paid $21,000 extra, because I am a sentimental idiot.

    I was in the Navy and therefore living all over the world. I never received one picture, report card, artwork or thank you letters for Christmas/Birthday presents. Never heard from her until the twins turned 17 and she decided to modify the order. Her being on unemployment payments and the fact that she has only worked full time 2 years out of the last 20, had nothing to do with her decision to modify, I’m sure.

    I have to get a lawyer, she is represented (for free) by the state. The judge thanks me for my “gift” of the extra $21,000, but still rewards her one year of retroactive payments at the higher rate. So all of the sudden I am behind by $4,500 in support. But the judge addressed the arrears in his order, and made a plan for me to pay in equal payments until December first of this year. The twins had already turned 18 the day before his decision was final.

    So all is hunky-dorey right? Wrong. Because he didn’t use specific language in his order about exemption from federal reporting, Child Support enforcement regards the $4,500 as arrears and revokes my passport, puts liens on my property, intercepted my tax refund, and reported me to credit bureaus. Child Support Enforcement, was sympathetic, and even acknowledged that this was not the judges intent, but they have to treat all fathers equally.

    Mind you I have never missed a payment, I even paid extra, and I had to pay for a lawyer to protect myself from the state. Yet, I am still being treated like a criminal.

    Can you honestly read the list of what is happening right now, and my little story, and say with a straight face, that the child support system and the extortion it makes possible, is fair?

  21. 351
    ANNIE

    There’s a part of me that does see the point but then there’s another point that’s…. Hmm, I am a woman and I don’t morally believe in abortion and I want to have children and since I may only have few opportunities to do get pregnant, yes, I will take it.

    Now, if I have a sexual relationship with a man they are aware of the statement above. And be clear, I only have sexual relations if I want children with them.

    But in a scenario where men aren’t jointly responsible for their actions – sex is never completely safe – what are my legal rights if they change their mind whether they are okay with becoming fathers halfway through a pregnancy?

    I don’t think any and we all have equal worth but could a man handle pregnancy, breastfeeding, raising a child from infant to adult and earning enough money to sustain a family alone? Some do (except breastfeeding and pregnancy obv) but most people – men or women – are not capable of that and shouldn’t have to?

    Would you want your daughters, sisters and mothers to be abandoned pregnant?

    I think if you can’t take care of your child, don’t like women because we are ‘manipulative’ or whatever for having our own oponions or feelings  or whatever, then WANK AT HOME.

    Really there’s no need to hurt a woman and a child just because you wanted sex there and then. Get a sex doll

  22. 352
    Devan

    Clearly those who believe that the majority of women are doing this to trap average men into paying a lifetime of support have never actually seen the typical child support amount required by the Courts in most situations.  Having been a practicing family law attorney for over a decade, I can assure you that most support is a drop in the bucket compared to the real costs of raising a child.  It’s entirely ridiculous to propose that the majority of these instances arise on purpose, though undoubtedly some do.

  23. 353
    kjh

    Why don’t you men take responsibility?? The responsibility is 50/50. You’re just another typical, spoiled, selfish man that wants to have sex knowing that a baby is a  possible but then not take

    responsibility. Anyways, it’s not about the woman, it’s about the child that did not ask for this.

  24. 354
    Mike

    Speaking as a man, if a man does not want to support a child, then don’t have sex.  Simple.  I am 40 and I know I have no children as I have never had sex, I don’t have to worry about supporting a child as I am able to keep my male part in my pants.

    1. 354.1
      Tyrone

      @Mike

      Would you agree with the below statement:

      If a woman doesn’t want to support a child, then she should not have sex, then choose not to abort, then choose not to put the baby up for adoption. Simple. Then she wouldn’t have to worry about supporting the child because she either kept her pants on, or utilized the choices/options legally available to her regardless of the desires of the man involved.

  25. 355
    Mike

    I would agree with the statement if a woman doesn’t want support a child don’t have sex (just like I said for men)  Keep your pants on if you don’t want to support a child man or woman

  26. 356
    Gerry

    Buck25
    You have every right to have and live by whatever religious views you embrace. You have exactly ZERO right, to force your religious views on those who do not share them, or have those views incorporated into law, so you can use the machinery and power of the state to force them on the rest of us. We have a little thing called the constitution, (you might have heard of it), which expressly prohibits that, and I expect and demand those provisions to be fully enforced.”
    These views that you class as “religious” are shared by many atheists and agnostics. Not all religions are opposed to abortion, exposure, infanticide, sacrificing people to the gods. The Roman state religion approved of the male head of household doing as he pleased: sodomizing slaves, raping slave and lower-class women, killing any member of his household with immunity from the law.
    Other religions approved, even required, burning firstborn infants alive in sacrifice to their god. Supreme Court justice Harry Blackmun, author of the infamous Roe v. Wade decree, invoked ancient pagan religion to justify legalization of abortion. So don’t give me this “blame it on religion” crap for a prohibition of elective abortion.
    Where is this prohibition of Congress or state legislatures applying the protection of the law to all human beings within their jurisdiction? To the contrary, the US Constitution forbids Congress and the state legislatures from withdrawing the protection of the law from any human being (person).
    It is irrelevant whether the source of a moral value is found in religion. Murder is forbidden by most religions. Are we then to decriminalize murder? Theft is prohibited by most religions. Should theft, robbery, burglary, swindling be legalized?
    We have every right in this representative democracy, this democratic republic, to elect representatives who will legislate our moral standards into law, and to force dissenters to respect our opinions as reflected in the laws. You can express your opposition but if you violate the law, expect to be prosecuted, convicted upon due proof and punished as provided by law.
    Buck25 cont’d.: “This is America, not some theocracy (no matter how much you’d like to have one).”
    Strawman. God, a god, or gods have no relevance to the topic, which is whether men should be FORCEd (by the government) to pay for children they didn’t want (to beget to start with).
    Buck25: “You are not ‘persecuted’ and you have no right to persecute others.”
    As to pro-life, anti-abortionists, “You” (we) includes our alive but not yet born brother and sister human beings – persons. When the unborn of us are killed, we are persecuted. When some of us are born alive and then dumped in a janitor closet to die, we are persecuted. Not only the Jews who were worked to death but as well were shot or gassed straight off the cattle cars were persecuted.
    One of the foremost purposes of government is to persecute those who show contempt for the law.

  27. 357
    Pixlee

    I, do not agree with anything stated above.  So men want to have their cake an eat it to?  If the biological father’s don’t want to take responsibility for their actions, the rest of society should not have to pay for it, which is why things like court ordered child support exists.  Men can also demand some sort of male birth control, but you don’t see that happening.  They want to have sex but not take responsibility for their actions.   Wasn’t in your plan to have a child yet, then you should have chosen a sexual partners more carefully.  Men basically leave the reproductive responsibility up to Women then cry when they get “trapped”.

  28. 358
    Eboni

    The purpose of vaginal sex is procreation. That’s biology not politics. As humans male or female we understand this. If we don’t want children but have vaginal sex anyway we know that we are taking a risk. We can’t change the laws of science to suit our fancy. If the dice don’t roll in our favor those are chances we take.

    We as consenting adults have to understand that the decision to “possibly” procreate is made before sex not afterwards. It’s sheepish and cowardly to want to participate in sex because it feels good but decide that you don’t want to take responsibility for your actions when the act actually “works” and does what it’s designed to do.

    If someone was speeding and rear ended a car would he or his insurance not have to pay because it was an “accident?” Of course not. That person gets whiplash and a hurt back for life and it won’t go away accident or not. But the driver is off the hook because he wanted the thrill of driving fast and also wanted to not have to worry about the consequences of his actions. On what planet is that possible? Yet people think a man is a “victim” because he all be wanted to do was get his rocks off and walk away and now he can’t? Ludicrous.

    1. 358.1
      Tyrone

      @Eboni

       

      Your car accident analogy is completely wrong for the situation you are attempting to apply it to. Insurance is designed to pay for exactly that sort of thing. And it is illegal (in the US anyway) to drive without at least liability insurance. And a woman choosing to have a baby when there are many choices available to her to not have to do so, is not analogous to a terminal back injury in a car accident where the victim has zero choice. You started off talking about choices and responsibility, then completely abandoned it at the end to make your one sided point.

       

      To use your car analogy – if man and a woman got into the car accident, the insurance would be the plan b, the abortion option, the adoption option. After the accident, the woman, and only the woman, can make the choice of whether or not she will accept the insurance, or if she would prefer cash from the state/man. Both parties could talk about it in an attempt to reach common ground. But ultimately the decision is hers alone to make. So if he doesn’t want to have a child, his input is irrelevant and deemed irresponsible.

       

      Both the man and the woman have the choice to have vaginal intercorse. So the woman was there “getting her rocks off” too. After that choice has been made, the man has NO OTHER CHOICE, while a the woman has many (plan b, abortion, adoption, safe have abandonment). If you want to talk about responsibility, then shouldn’t a woman take responsibility for having not used/requiring a man to use protection? Her body, her choice and all that jazz. Shouldn’t she take responsibility if she chooses to have a child that a man is not interested in fathering, especially since she has many options available to her after conception to stop it? And if she makes the choice on her own to for go those options and keep the baby despite the objections of the other person that you claim is also responsible, why should she not bear sole responsibility for the choice that she solely made? Why should the guy pay for her sole choice? Why should taxpayers pay for her sole choice?

       

      If someone has the ability through prerogative and government backing to make a unilateral choice that will forever affect someone else’s life with or without that person’s consent, how can you claim that it isn’t, at least in some cases, a form of victimization?

       

      I had the joy of being on the opposite side of this. I wanted to have the child and she did not. There was nothing I could do to stop her from aborting the child – it being her body and all. So would you say that she was just a girl trying to get her rocks off and walk away without taking responsibility for having vaginal intercourse? Wouldn’t that make me the whiplash victim in your car accident analogy? She wanted the thrill of driving fast but not the responsibility. But because only she alone can make the choice to abort, she didn’t have to worry about the consequence of her actions. That consequence, on my end, is having -1 child.

      1. 358.1.1
        Eboni

        Tyrone to reply to the woman who got pregnant with your baby and chose not to keep it was indeed just trying to get her rocks off  and avoid her responsibilities. I’m sorry for that by the way.

        I would suppose that the defining factor would be how one viewed pregnancy. I’m a mother. I’m a single mother in fact. I got pregnant by surprise 16 years ago. During my first doctors appointment at 6 weeks I saw the ultrasound and heard the heartbeat. At that point I realized that my pregnancy was building a life. That would one day be a little person who was once a part of me. Those are my thoughts.

        We or at least I because I don’t know your location live in a nation that allows someone to chose after conception. Now I’m not going to go against anyone’s beliefs on life or choice. But some people make it sound like it is just a major purchase at a big chain box store. If you get home and the tv doesn’t fit in your entertainment center you just take it back. It’s not. It’s life. Aborting to me is unnatural.

        I know many women who have had abortions and adoptions  and had lasting regrets for years. Also there are so many complications including infertility, long lasting psychological damage and just outright guilt. The man is spared from that. Even in having a baby it’s not his body, no stretch marks, no moving your organs around to accommodate a growing child. Let’s not even get into labor and that pain. So yes guys make your choice to take responsibility before you even lay down with someone. Women too. Some people see it as an inconvenient doctors appointment they can either go or not go to  and others like myself feel like it’s killing a child and a part of themselves. And no one has the right to make  me do that. The time to chose is before you lay down.

        1. Tyrone

          “We or at least I because I don’t know your location live in a nation that allows someone to chose after conception. Now I’m not going to go against anyone’s beliefs on life or choice. But some people make it sound like it is just a major purchase at a big chain box store. If you get home and the tv doesn’t fit in your entertainment center you just take it back. It’s not. It’s life. Aborting to me is unnatural”

           

          Yes I live in a location where it is a legal choice. I’m not commenting on the difficulty of the choice, as that is ultimately not important. It is moral to some and immoral to others. I am personally anti-abortion. But the point is, no matter what your moral stance is, that choice belongs to the woman alone. If you make a choice 100% on your own against the wishes of the other party involved, why should you not bear 100% of the responsibility just because you personally have a moral issue with the options legally available? Is it moral to force someone else to do something at that don’t wish to do because of your own personal beliefs?

           

          “I know many women who have had abortions and adoptions  and had lasting regrets for years.”

           

          They exercised their right to choice what they thought was best at the time. Maybe some regret it. Maybe some don’t. Maybe some only think about it sometimes. They point is still it was their choice to make.

           

          “Also there are so many complications including infertility, long lasting psychological damage and just outright guilt.”

           

          All choices have potential consequences. It is still the woman’s choice to make. A choice being too hard or potentially life altering is not an argument. Is being forced into fatherhood not life altering? The only difference is that the man isn’t able to make that choice. Only the woman has that power.

           

          “Even in having a baby it’s not his body, no stretch marks, no moving your organs around to accommodate a growing child. Let’s not even get into labor and that pain.”

           

          So what? If the woman didn’t want the stress on her body or the pain of labor she could had taken a plan b pill or had an abortion. Again, your arguments don’t invalidate that it is her choice alone to do proceed however she wishes.

           

          “So yes guys make your choice to take responsibility before you even lay down with someone. Women too.”

           

          Once again, the point is after the “laying down with someone” women STILL have all of the choices to make and can force another to share the responsibility of HER choice.

           

          “Some people see it as an inconvenient doctors appointment they can either go or not go to  and others like myself feel like it’s killing a child and a part of themselves. And no one has the right to make  me do that.”

           

          Yes no one can make you get an abortion. You can choose to do it or not do it. But why do you think that due to your own personal moral objection, someone else should be forced to do something they don’t wish to. If forcing someone to do something only ok if a woman does it?

          Saying that the man and woman share responsibility when having unprotected sex is fine. I agree. But in this case, it is a null argument. Both made the choice and a pregnancy occurred. But after that happens, only the choices of the woman matter. The man has none to make. He can’t make you take a plan b pill or stop you from taking one. He can’t make you get an abortion, nor can he stop you from getting one. You can say that a woman has the right to have these be her choices due to the increased hardship on her body and whatnot. Fair enough. But if that is the argument, then since she has assumed choice of all potential outcomes, if she chooses to ignore the wishes of the man involved, she should also assume all of the responsibility. Because that is how responsibility works – or at least how it is supposed to work. You don’t get to have it and then pass it off when it becomes too hard or inconvenient. So if women want to share responsibility, they should share the choices involved. If they don’t want to share the choices involved, they should accept all of the responsibility of their unilateral choices.

           

           

  29. 359
    Dscot

    I love having sex but I don’t want children so I did my part and got a vasectomy.

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