How Do I Tell a Man That His Awkward Sex Talk Is a Turn Off?

How Do I Tell a Man That His Awkward Sex Talk Is a Turn Off

I just started casually dating a really great guy, he is fun to be with and we have a lot in common. It seems like we have similar goals and values. Of course we have only been out a few times and talked on the phone. I like him and have chemistry 5-6, but I find myself pulling away with his so called sensual playfulness, it makes me uncomfortable. It feels like skirt chasing.

He can be very romantic by doing things like spontaneously dancing with me at the end of a movie (old school) always holds doors open, gently guides me through crowds, stuff like that. Then he runs on his sensual and YUCK!! Get me away!! He thinks pestering me about what type of underwear I am wearing is cute, it’s creepy. He thinks teasing me he is going to buy me a bra and panties is cute… again, creepy. I mean after we are in a committed relationship nice, but I don’t want to constantly hear about it 10-15 times every time we talk. He’s always joking he wants to spank me, but not in a cute way its awkward and we have only been on 4 dates… you get the idea. It feels really creepy as he sticks to it, like a dog with a bone. I try and play it off or ignore it and give him positive reinforcement when he does things I like, but the skirt chasing, objectivity, sex toy, is making me feel really uncomfortable. I tried to explain that it made me uncomfortable and tell him what I liked that he does, but he got his feelings hurt and shut down.

He said that since I once made the move and kissed him he felt like his comments worked for a bad girl like me. Really, I leaned over on the sofa and kissed him. That’s all we have done – nothing else, just some kissing. I may have let it go further, but this constant asking what type of underwear, etc., just feels icky, HUGE turn off. It’s just not sexy or sensual. I am not a prude, though it may seem like it here. I just feel like there are mixed messages and I am trying to read his actions to determine if I want to keep dating him. I have been treated like a sex object before and it’s a huge turn off. I am not sure how much of his behavior to trust and how to explain to him that it makes me feel cheap and unvalued when he does that.

How do I explain without hurting his feeling and get my point across? And how do I determine which is his real way of being? I am finding myself more and more guarded and he is getting more and more nervous around me. Most of the time it feels like I am with a man and then his so-called sensual side comes out and I am with a horny 12-year old boy, it’s just not attractive. Or should I just give up??

Katherine

I didn’t edit this question so you could paint the full picture, Katherine.
I also don’t think there’s that much of a dilemma here.

I’ll bet that this guy is, in fact, a decent human being. The problem is that it doesn’t matter if he’s a decent human being if he’s consistently creeping you out.

Seems to me like he’s a dorky, inexperienced guy whose knowledge of women largely comes from movies, porn and pick-up artist manuals. So while some men can effectively push the envelope with the underwear and spanking talk, others sound like – well, horny 12-year-old boys who are reading aloud from an old Penthouse Forum.

The problem is that it doesn’t matter if he’s a decent human being if he’s consistently creeping you out.

Thus…

It’s not your job to teach him.
It’s not your job to spare his feelings.
It’s not your job to determine his “real” way of being.

As you probably ascertained in the month since you sent me this email, it’s your job to break up with him as soon as possible, so that you can find another fun, great guy who doesn’t require remedial training in how to talk about sex.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Caroline

    I liked that advice. I know sometimes as a woman we are told so many things in dating like “we are too picky”, “give a guy a chance”, “be more flirty”, “be more playful”, etc (which is all great advice btw)-we sometimes misconstrue the message when we don’t set firm personal boundaries. If your “gut” feeling is that what he is doing doesn’t make you feel good (or even gives you the creeps!)-go with your instinct. You being firm with conveying your feelings about this should have been enough. When it isn’t-tell him so and move on. Of course don’t do it in a mean manner. He will get the message eventually so he   Will hopefully change his behavior to get the relationship he wants.

    1. 1.1
      Chance

      I have to wonder if her issue is really with his unattractive sexual approach as opposed to feeling like she is being treated like a “sex object”.  She says the chemistry is only a 5-6, and almost undoubtedly, this is at least partially due to his beta-like behavior.  It appears that he is sending out feelers with his constant verbal expression of sexual interest to see how she will receive them as opposed to exhibiting a true masculine dominance, and just making his move without any verbalization at all.  Most women would, on some level, pick up on his behavior as being insecure.  If the chemistry level was an 8-9, they would have likely had sex by now.

       

      IMO, this post is somewhat related to the recent “Sex Object” post in that we often see women attempt to conflate what they find as unattractive with something that is much worse.  I don’t know what their motivations are with this attempt to conflate, but it enables them to appear like they aren’t rejecting these men for more superficial reasons.  There’s nothing wrong with not being attracted to a guy due to his approach and how he is carrying himself, even if he is otherwise a great guy.  However, I think most women would gladly be a sex object (in the particular moment) for a guy whom they find very attractive.

      1. 1.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Chance,

        you stated,

        I have to wonder if her issue is really with his unattractive sexual approach as opposed to feeling like she is being treated like a sex object.

        I don’t understand the difference? Could you explain what you mean? What do you think of all the times she said eww! Yuck! and he reminds me of a 12 year old kid!

         

        you stated,

        “IMO, this post is somewhat related to the recent “Sex Object” post in that we often see women attempt to conflate what they find as unattractive with something that is much worse.”

        Could you give me three examples of this? Also so in your opinion is this a thing women do in general or just something you observe women on this site doing?

         

        you stated,

        “However, I think most women would gladly be a sex object (in the particular moment) for a guy whom they find very attractive.”

        Could you give me your example of a sex object… in the context of it being from a guy she desires?

        Another male commenter and I were speaking about this on another post and most of the women were saying we guys only want it because we don’t understand it/look at it from a male perspective.

        They all seemed to agree it is something women don’t want! It doesn’t matter it was from a guy she desired or not.

        Do you think that is true? Because of our high levels of testosterone and love for sex do you believe that men will look at a woman “he desires” treating him like a sexual object as just foreplay or just a higher level of flirtation.

        Do you believe women will only want sexual play in a low doses, in controlled, timely manner sporadically?

         

        1. Chance

          Hi Adrian, like Tom10, I also am not sure where you are coming from with your questions.  Are you trying to challenge what I’m saying or are you trying to learn more about women from another man’s perspective?  If it’s the latter, I’d be happy to share my experiences in the hope that it could possibly help another guy be more successful with women.  If it’s the former, I don’t really have the inclination to respond because it’s no fun for me to go back-and-forth with another guy on here.  All that would happen is that we would just hammer out the details of our arguments and agree on some points, while rationally agreeing to disagree on others.

        2. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Adrian,

          Regarding being a “sex object.”

          “Another male commenter and I were speaking about this on another post and most of the women were saying we guys only want it because we don’t understand it/look at it from a male perspective.”

          I remember that comment thread!

          Women want to be desired by a man they desire.  They don’t want to be a sex object for him.  It’s the difference between a man wanting to be with you because of your unique beauty and charm, and a man who only wants porn-like glory-hole sex where it’s only the vagina that he’s after, not the woman it resides within.

           

           

           

      2. 1.1.2
        Shaukat

        have to wonder if her issue is really with his unattractive sexual approach as opposed to feeling like she is being treated like a “sex object”.  She says the chemistry is only a 5-6, and almost undoubtedly, this is at least partially due to his beta-like behavior.

        Great point chance. I don’t always agree with you, but always look forward to your posts.

  2. 2
    Adrian

    She said she tried to tell him, which is good, but it came off to me as if she did it in a passive, round about way. Then she says that she wants to tell him without hurting his feelings…

    I guess I just never understood this about women. Why not just be direct?

    In her letter, she doesn’t paint him as the type to lash out in anger, so why not just be direct about his behavior and how it makes her feel? I am finding this with many post by women on the site as well as stories I here in real life from women; they want to be nice or not hurt the guy which is a kind hearted thing to do, but don’t you women care about what is effective also?

    A regular commentator on this site for example is always speaking about how guys never get the “hint” when she is not interested and so they continue to pester her, why not just be direct and tell the guy (assuming he is not the angry violent type) “I’m flattered, but I don’t have and will never have any interest in dating you.”

    …   ….   …

    Another type that amazes me are the women who in their professional lives are so strong and take charge; knowing what they want and not allowing themselves to be manipulated, but “some” of these same women are so passive in relationships (from the stories I hear).

    It confuses me. Alpha, arrogant, thorough, and work-a-holic men, all are (from my observation) the same at work as they are at home, why are women different?

    …   …   …

    As far as the original post, Evan nailed it perfectly.

    It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where one of the characters told a funny joke, and loved the attention it brought him; however after the 20th time hearing the same joke, his friends started to hate it.

    I believe this guy did the same, he read a few PUA’s books about what women want, she maybe smirked at one of his comments in the beginning to appear nice and he took it as a green like.

    I haven’t read any PUA material in a long time, ever since I found Evan, but from what I remember, being able to tease with sexually humor was seen as one of their main tools. PUA’s say a woman loves a man who knows what he is doing in bed. But since it obviously didn’t come naturally to this guy, he was butchering it.

     

    1. 2.1
      Rocky

      She said in her letter that she tried to explain that his behavior makes him uncomfortable, and he shut down.

      None of us were there, so none of us know exactly how this went down. But from the way she describes it, it sounds like she tried to tell him. He reacted poorly.

      She thinks there is a magical way to tell him by which he will get the message and do what she wants. Unfortunately, that is highly unlikely. She tried communication already. As she should have. She correctly perceived that her Guy’s issue was much more likely to be born of ignorance than anything else. So she tried to tell him, hoping he would have an epiphany. This is admirable. Far easier to simply chuck someone aside, but even after only four dates, if you like someone enough, communication is worth a try. Unfortunately, It didn’t work. That means it is not going to work. Accept it and move on.

      Adrian, you might be right, I am just not seeing it. Why would telling him in a round about way make him shut down?

      1. 2.1.1
        Adrian

        Hello Rocky,

        I was thinking about when she said she played it off at first, when I was referring to her being passive. She did tell him, and he did shut down.

        After re-reading the letter, it seems that she suffers more from having a kind heart than being passive. She also seems intuitive, she knows this guy is sensitive, so she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings.

        …   …   …

        As so many male AND female commenters have stated in the past, I hate using the term beta, but it just simplifies things. I have witnessed, read about, and heard about many beta men shutting down because a woman was being round about. He took it as rejection of HIM when she was just saying she did not like something he did in a gentle way.

    2. 2.2
      John

      Hi Adrian
      You said “I guess I just never understood this about women. Why not just be direct?
      The answer is that women are feminine. I have rarely had women be direct with me. It’s not their nature. As stated many times on this blog, a man asks a woman out, makes plans for the date and pays for it. That is direct behavior exhibited by real men. If I want to kiss a woman I don’t say, “May I kiss you?” I just make a move. If she turns her head away from me, that tells me she doesn’t want me to kiss her right now. Maybe on the next date, maybe not.
      As far as PUA stuff goes, the advice I’ve read says to make sexual suggestion fun. For example, if she says, “We should get another drink.” You could be playful and say”Are you trying to get me drunk and take advantage of me?” It is not crass, but shows the guy has a sense of humor and social intelligence.
      Bottom line Adrian is that if you expect women to be direct, you will be disappointed. If you want a woman to be direct with you, then what your really saying is that you want her to be more like a man, because men are usually direct. There is this myth that men should just know how to be good with women. Not true. It is an acquired skill. A man who knows women lets women be women in all of their whimsical and emotion ways.

      1. 2.2.1
        Adrian

        Hello John,

        I hear you, but being direct in the context of standing up for your wants and needs is not the same as taking the man’s role.

        If a guy is doing something to make a woman feel uncomfortable, she should tell him. If she sees he is not getting the “hint” then just tell him. If he is doing something she likes and she wants him to do it more, just tell him.

        She can still be a feminine woman, and simultaneously radiate authority over her own personal needs and desires.

        Though I think Chance had a good point, women (and men) accept more from people they really like

        …   …   …

        I agree with you about the PUA stuff. I think as Evan said, this guy read it, and was trying to use techniques that were not natural to him (sexual humor and teasing).

         

        1. Chance

          Hi Adrian – quickly, I don’t think the verbalization of a woman’s needs/desires serves much of a purpose to a woman (if any purpose at all) in the initial phase of dating because she wants a man who gets it without having to be told.  During this phase, I think the only point when a typical woman would verbalize something is if she is feeling genuinely scared or exasperated.

        2. Warrior Princess

          I am a woman and I think women need to be more honest. Who says it’s in our nature not to be direct and honest? We can say it sweetly.  We don’t need to be rude or aggressive. 

          Just be definitive and don’t give mixed messages. We should  never expect a man to read out mind. Srsly !!!

        3. Caroline

          Adrian-I don’t think anyone’s single explanation (about just being direct) could have shown a brighter light on the matter than the exchange of words between John & Sal and the ladies.  The whole conversation just degraded to a seemingly patronizing/condescending remark (whimsical/emotional=women can be such whiny little girls or worse-crazy) where the response was indeed sarcastic and a bit terse (which I think should may have been expected/maybe even provoked?) yet the result is pretty much “damned if you do/damned if you don’t” for most women. Sal says a “masculine” man will be turned off by directness and John replied with the ever popular you are ranting and overly emotional. Sigh.

          I absolutely agree with you Adrian. Women should tell men kindly and directly when it’s important. It just cuts to the chase. Less hurt feelings all around. It’s 2016, women can retain their femininity while being direct and having boundaries. If a man is “turned off” by this he most likely has his ego wrapped up in his perceived masculinity. an evolved man will appreciate a woman who stands up for herself. just as a modern day feminine woman strikes a balance. the males and females who dont evolve will most likely go the way of the dinosaurs. (or have to pay for an underpriviledged bride from EU resulting in children with the entitlement and inability to be empathetic as the Trump kids are.). of course this doesn’t mean we can’t also be playful, flirty, nurturing, etc.

        4. Chance

          Caroline, you seem to be much more sensitive to how men talk to women on here than the other way around.

        5. Buck25

          @ Caroline,

          I didn’t see a problem with what the LW said to the guy in the first place; it seemed (to me, anyway) to be clear and direct enough, without being angry or mean-spirited. I would think even a socially uncalibrated dork (which the guy clearly is) would have understood; and he must have, considering how he shut down (like a pouting wuss) in the wake of it.. I don’t see any problem with what she said, or how she said it. Just another beta wannabe, imagining he’s acting alpha,  trying to be someone he isn’t, and failing badly. In a way, I’m amazed she didn’t laugh at him; I’ve known women who would have; there’s awkward, …and then there’s something like this guy. Beyond clueless.

        6. Caroline

          Oh absolutely Chance. I can definitely be a bit perturbed by some of the “fellas” who apparently are just trying to stir things up so to speak, I actually wouldn’t have responded to John that way this time. I felt I understood where he was coming from with the idea that women converse differently. I do disagree that it’s biological but it could have been born of a biological reaction/need. I also think Sal has a point too but it lacked any further delving into the matter. No offense Sal-but it’s a vicious cycle if a woman was to try and keep up with some men’s nonsense. I really am grateful for Evans straight forward, tell it like it is view. Because he’s actually tried to put himself in the ladies shoes. It’s my belief the majority of ladies come here to get a bit of insight and joust around some ideas. Unfortunately, some men come here just to IMO make some of us struggling ladies feel worse about themselves. Whatever, if it makes you feel better about yourself to accuse women of conflating matters-go ahead. I’d much rather listen to men’s points of views I can actually learn from and who will actually take our views into consideration without resorting to name calling and ugly generalizations painting the whole female gender as money grubbing, heartless bitches whose sole purpose is to denigrate men.

          Thank you to the many men who come here to give us a little reality check into what it’s like to be a man today. 🙂

        7. Caroline

          Buck-I thought Katherine’s response was even keeled and maybe even thoughtful. I know the term “creepy” in referring to some men’s actions is overused at times. I think if someone pushes you incessantly like she said-it can give a lady the icks. Plus, sometimes as a woman if I get a true gut instinct-I pay attention to it. I think it keeps us safe. While I’m plenty aware that the vast majority of men would never mean any ill will-I don’t discount the feeling. I’ve had some rather intimidating and uncomfortable go ins in my life. I’d hope most men would eventually realize its not personal-we just tend to bend to caution when there is uncertainty. I’ve also had some very erratic and intimidating behavior displayed by a man who I just dated twice. I realize it’s not very good manners but I now only tend to end a dating relationship over a phone call.

      2. 2.2.2
        Callie

        John I have to disagree with your assessment. It’s not that women are feminine, it’s that we’ve been conditioned since birth to be indirect. To be nice, to not make a fuss, to not hurt feelings. Further when you think about the number of times women have said something direct to a man only to have him lash out at her, you can kind of understand why women are nervous around men especially to be direct. I mean, think about the typical online dating rejection that pretty much every woman who dates online has experienced:

        Man: Hey gorgeous, you want to go out Friday?

        Woman: Thank you but I’m not interested.

        Man: Well fuck you, you’re a fat whore anyway!

         

        Even in this letter alone we have a woman telling a man how she feels only to have him shut down.

        So yeah. It’s tough for women to be direct, not for any biological reason but because we aren’t socially conditioned to be and we have been punished for being such.

        (all that being said, I am actually ridiculously direct, and that has led to all kinds of confusion with men who have insisted I am playing games etc when I am literally telling them exactly what I want and who I am. So it seems like men don’t actually want us to be direct either . . . )

      3. 2.2.3
        Isobel Matheson

        I am direct. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. I say it in a respectful, calm way first, and if whatever it is gets ignored, I either say it again more forcefully, or walk away.

        Men don’t like this, I am told so many times I am ‘too much’, not ‘feminine enough’, a ‘bit scary’, blah blah blah. By men, I hasten to add – my female friends and workmates are fine with it and appreciate knowing where they stand. I am generally amenable, co-operative, thoughtful, kind, and patient. I just don’t play games or mince my words.

        As for ‘whimsical and emotional ways’…….Sheeeeeez!

        Your reply is patronising and belongs in another century, if at all. Women are not another species. There is no ‘acquired skill’ in communicating with a woman, only the skill of communicating full stop.

        1. SAL9000

          “Direct” is masculine which can indeed be a turn off for a masculine man (which many men tend to be).

          Most men are masculine and most women are feminine, and each mode of communication is quite different. Since men are typically the proactive side, effective “cross communication” thusly and most definitely is an acquired skill.

        2. John

          Isobel

          Many men wish women were direct, because that cannot deal with women as they are. Most women are not direct. If you are, you are an exception to the rule.

          Your last paragraph turned into an emotional and defensive rant. Can you just express your point of view and spare me the attitude of outrage? Your emotional response proves you cannot tolerate those who disagree with you.

          Men and women inherently communicate differently with a few exceptions. You see it differently. I do not need to call you names or be offended by your comments. I can just call it like I see it. You say your kind and patient. You must just be that way with those who see things your way.

        3. AM

          @John.  I disagree with your comment that Isobel’s last paragraph was an emotional and defensive rant.  It’s her opinion, all of 3 sentences long, and to the point.  Women being told that voicing their opinion is “a rant” can contribute to the choice to phrase something indirectly vs directly.

          Ending here.  Have already deleted any further comment twice since I can see how they could be misconstrued as a rant and or emotional response, and that’s not my intention.

    3. 2.3
      S.

      I guess I just never understood this about women. Why not just be direct?

      Because direct can be harsh.  She could say, “the things you are saying and doing are turning me off.”  That could be hard to come back from. Most people are sensitive to criticism of their sexual side. I can be direct but I avoid it because I know whatever words I say could be the end of whatever it is that’s going on.  Maybe she doesn’t want it to end just yet, you know?  It might get better but chances are, it won’t.

      But that’s the lesson here. I’ve been in this situation and no matter how long you wait, or explain, or how nice you are, if you’re feeling creeped out, it’s dead in the water and you may as well call it.

      I even used to think, ‘if he would just stop saying those things quite like that’ but nope.  He’s not going to stop and even if he did, sometimes just by bringing it up the damage is done.

      So that’s why.  Criticizing someone’s bedroom style, especially early on is usually a death knell for that courtship.  We sense that (which is why she wrote in) and hesitate in case we don’t want it to be over.  But the fact is, it usually already is.

  3. 3
    Tom10

    I agree with Chance with this one; it seems that Katherine (the letter writer) simply isn’t really attracted to this guy, therefore, ultimately there’s nothing either party can do in this situation to change this. It looks like he’s trying hard – too hard – to think of different angles to spark some attraction but none seem to be working, and most likely, never will.
     
    The kindest thing for Katherine to do is let him move on to someone who is attracted to him, and the guy himself needs to find some self-respect and move on to another woman who doesn’t get creeped out every time he makes a move.
     
    @ Adrian #2
    You ask a lot of questions here.
     
    Why?
     
    That is all.

    1. 3.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Tom10

      “. . . it seems that Katherine (the letter writer) simply isn’t really attracted to this guy, therefore, ultimately there’s nothing either party can do in this situation to change this. It looks like he’s trying hard – too hard – to think of different angles to spark some attraction but none seem to be working, and most likely, never will.”

      The problem isn’t that Katherine isn’t attracted to him, therefore his “sexy talk” is icky.  The problem is his awkward sexy talk diminished her attraction to him or prevented it from increasing.

      Several commenters have said that it sounds like Katherine’s suitor is trying to use a PUA “game” technique to spark or increase her attraction to him (Adrian mentioned teasing with sexual humor).  So it stands to reason that if good game sparks or increases attraction, bad game will diminish or kill attraction.

       

      1. 3.1.1
        Shaukat

        The problem isn’t that Katherine isn’t attracted to him, therefore his “sexy talk” is icky.  The problem is his awkward sexy talk diminished her attraction to him or prevented it from increasing.

        I really don’t think this is the case, and agree with Tom10 and Chance on this point. Some of the things the letter writer mentions this guys has been saying–asking her about her underwear, joking that he wants to buy her lingerie– sound completely innocuous and would even be appropriate for a fourth date if the attraction was strong, and probably would have led to sex by now if the chemistry was higher. In fact, the OP begins her letter by stating that the chemistry is at a 5 or 6 even before she mentions his awkward, turn-offish behavior.

        In my opinion there are really only two possibilities here: 1). The OP has very deeply ingrained social conservative or feminist values which would clash with such talk even if there was a high level of chemistry, or (more likely) 2). She isn’t physically attracted to this guy and is trying to rationalize the lack of chemistry by dissecting his behavior.

      2. 3.1.2
        Tom10

         
        @ GoWiththeFlow #3.1
         
        “The problem isn’t that Katherine isn’t attracted to him, therefore his “sexy talk” is icky.  The problem is his awkward sexy talk diminished her attraction to him or prevented it from increasing”
         
         
         
        Hmm, chicken or egg?
         
         
         
        I remember a few years ago a commenter – some sort of evolution/zoology expert – discussing PUA and “game” (techniques to generate attraction) and explaining how the phenomenon was actually a case of cargo-cult reasoning.
         
         
         
        So guys who have no luck with women observe and analyze the behavior of the successful guys and try to mimic what they do in order to have more success with women themselves.
         
         
         
        So they observe the successful guys treat women carelessly, make sexually explicit references etc. and in their minds, the unsuccessful guys figured that if they replicated this behavior it would generate attraction with women for them too. And that’s what the whole PUA movement is about.
         
         
         
        What the unsuccessful guys didn’t realize was that the reason the successful guys were successful wasn’t really because of “game” per se, rather that they were, um, very attractive. Their behavior towards women wasn’t what was causing the attraction, rather it was as a result of having been afforded so many options: they could simply afford to treat women shabbily because they had so many options.
         
         
         
        But when unattractive guys try to copy this behavior in an effort to generate attraction it just creeps women out. And it looks like this is the case with Katherine.
         
         
         
        No matter what “game” techniques her guy tries to seduce her with they simply won’t work, as she has no attraction to him in the first place.

      3. 3.1.3
        Caroline

        GWTF-this is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. As women, we are told to not be so picky. Which is great advice. Women tend to look at men in a wider lens. She may realize he is good person, so she tries to make a connection with him even though the attraction is not stellar. His awkward advances were not well received because maybe (I’m theorizing) he skipped some steps. I would personally need more from the guy before he jumped into sexual innuendo. Little signals like touching my arm when he’s talking, leading me by placing his hand in the small of my back through a crowd. Actually being interested in getting to know me as a person. I’ve been on so many dates where as the guy finally asked my opinion or something specifically directed toward me to only have my answer go without comment, acknowledgement or to be quickly dismissed with more about himself. Now granted, some blame goes to me for not knowing how to engage, but as I have vastly improved; there seems to be that there are some guys who are just biding their time with you so they can get you into bed.  It’s absolutely refreshing when you meet a man where everything kinda just “clicks”. Things evolve at a comfortable pace so to speak:)

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Caroline,

          I would say that most of my relationships started with me being either neutral or somewhat attracted to a man, and my attraction for him grew the more I got to know him.  And to very high levels 😉

          A man talking about buying her lingerie or spanking her, and referring to her as a “bad” girl up to 12 times during one date as the LW said was happening is beyond creepy.  It wouldn’t matter if the guy looked like Chris Hemsworth, most women would get a serious case of the heebie-jeebies from that!

        2. Chance

          GWTF, I agree.  Her lack of attraction is undoubtedly, at least in part (if not mostly), due to his approach.  The only thing I question from the LW’s post is that I believe her lack of attraction to him is more due to the lack of confidence that he’s displaying as opposed to feeling like a “sex object”.  Many women are more than happy to play the role of a sex object when it suits them to do so.  However, it is much harder for other people to judge a woman who says she isn’t into a guy because he makes her feel like a “sex object” as opposed simply not being attracted to him because he isn’t confident enough or for reasons that she can’t quite quantify.

        3. Tom10

          @ GoWiththeFlow & Caroline
          “A man talking about buying her lingerie or spanking her, and referring to her as a “bad” girl up to 12 times during one date as the LW said was happening is beyond creepy.”
           
          Actually on second thoughts I think you’re right about this part; the guy does seem very creepy indeed. So the chemistry is only a 5-6 and he’s a creep: I’m surprised Katherine put up with it as long as she did!

  4. 4
    John

    Hi Callie,

    It’s tough for women to be direct, not for any biological reason but because we aren’t socially conditioned to be and we have been punished for being such.

    I would disagree with you that being feminine is not biological. You can condition people out of their nature, but that doesn’t stop their biological nature from existing. Men and women have different brains and respond differently to the same circumstances. When I was a kid, if another boy was mad at me he would directly confront me. He would say what he thought I did to him and he may even punch me in the nose. I observed when girls were mad at each other, they would spread vicious rumors (passive) about the targeted girl. Usually, the allegations were that the targeted woman was a slut. A reason you have for women being afraid to be direct is fear of being attacked. Why is that true? Because biologically women are weaker physically in general. If I was a woman I wouldn’t be direct either. Women are biologically wired to be passive for their own protection. Every woman I’ve asked out in my life who wasn’t interested never told me that she wasn’t interested. She would stop responding to my calls. I’ve had a woman I wanted to date tell mutual woman friend how clueless I was because I didn’t get it that she wasn’t interested from her lack of a response. As I grew more mature, I learned the settle ways women communicate. If you watch a couple of episodes of Naked and Afraid on Discovery Channel, you will see men and women revert to their biological sex roles pretty quick.

    1. 4.1
      Callie

      Well it’s the nature vs nurture debate isn’t it? One which I believe has yet to be resolved . . . except I guess you just did it now! We’d better alert the presses!

      But thank you for instructing me, a woman, on why I am the way I am and that my personal beliefs as to why are completely wrong. I always love it when men open my eyes to the reality of my personal experience and existence.

      1. 4.1.1
        John

        Callie,

        Your response to my comments are full of sarcasm, which is passive. So you proved my point. You seem to feel slighted because I don’t understand what it is like to be a woman. I’m sure you make observations about men and you certainly are not a man. If you think that I cannot observe what happens to women in my life because I’m a man is laughable. I don’t have to be a woman to see what is self-evident. You seem to be upset about your past experiences with men. If you cannot disagree without being sarcastic and passive-aggressive, that has nothing to do with me.

        1. Callie

          Sure you can make observations, but that doesn’t mean your conclusions are accurate.

          And no, I don’t claim to suggest I understand why men behave how they do, nor do I claim that all men are any one way or that masculinity is any one thing and is responsible for all things that men do. But nice drawing fallacious conclusions. Just like you for some reason concluded I must be upset about past experiences with men and that I am incapable of disagreeing with anyone without being passive or sarcastic (also fallacious: that sarcasm isn’t direct) because of my singular response to you.

          Now as I said, I don’t think sarcasm is necessarily passive. But if you’re looking for something as you define as direct, you can read my initial reply to you. I was direct, I had no sarcasm, and I treated you with respect. (which of course then proves your point wrong, if one act of being passive as you describe it indicates I have proven your point, then my initial direct behaviour must have also disproven it) It was only when you denied my reality and my experiences and insisted I was something I was not that I decided you weren’t worth really having a sincere conversation with.  And decided to have a little fun with you.

          I guess you don’t have much of a sense of humour.

           

  5. 5
    CSI

    So they’ve been on 4 dates and nothing more than a brief kiss? Isn’t that quite chaste by modern standards? And she initiated the kiss. So he’s respectful and kind, but also shy and also almost certainly very inexperienced. Possibly even a virgin. He really wants to have sex, but doesn’t really know how to express this without seeming like a creep. Unfortunately his constant suggestive banter is in itself creepy. Yet him going completely sexless would also doom the relationship, am I right?

    “It’s not your job to teach him.It’s not your job to spare his feelings.”

    True. She should leave him, especially since she isn’t very attracted to him. But this guy is in quite a bind. I bet almost every other age-appropriate women he could go out with doesn’t want such a dorky, inexperienced guy either. What can he do? Go MGTOW?

    1. 5.1
      S.

      What can he do?

      This is a good question.  But before I ponder it, I am reminded that he didn’t write in.  In fact, it’s rare that Evan’s questions are from men.

      The only thing for this guy is to keep meeting women.  Hopefully, he’ll find one he bonds with over another topic, perhaps as a friend.  Maybe he’ll be fun and confident in this topic (doesn’t matter what it is as long as they are both passionate about it).  So hopefully, there is attraction and genuine like before he starts this stuff.   Maybe that person will enlighten him or maybe she’ll think it’s fun or endearing.

      I still believe everyone’s lid is out there.  Some are just really, really hard to find!  And Katherine isn’t this guy’s lid. A lot of women may not be but someone out there is.

      1. 5.1.1
        Buck25

        Hi S,

        Actually there’s quite a bit he could do, if he chooses. Not with this particular interaction, but there are lessons he might learn.

        First of all, what happened here is pretty obvious; here’s a guy who tried to emulate a behavior set that he’s seen work for guys who are extremely successful with women, and had it backfire on him. Why? The root of the problem is, that he’s trying to be someone he simply isn’t (at least, not yet). At this point, he’s a somewhat awkward, passive, nice guy, probably a bit introverted, trying to play the part of a suave, confident, extroverted, charismatic, dominant man, trying to boost his attractiveness to his date with some bold sexual innuendo. What he’s trying so hard to project, is simply not congruent with his true self. He’s not confident enough to pull it off, or socially experienced and calibrated enough to know when to try, and so his attempts are clumsy at best, and from his date’s viewpoint, creepy. The proof that he’s way too much of a wuss to be doing this, is that when  the LW called him on it, instead of having the confidence to pivot, and redirect his efforts, he shut down and pouted like a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

        There are social alphas who are made, not simply born, but a guy does not get to be one by simply emulating alpha behavior. Instead, the average Schmuck who aspires to more, has to actually became more. So before he messes up yet again, our lad here needs to be building himself a bolder life, starting in those areas where he can gradually build some real confidence and competence, so he knows what that actually feels like. He can do that in his work, in his hobbies; maybe in hitting the gym, or taking up a sport that requires developing some real skill, maybe something adventurous; he needs to find something he can excel at, maybe several of them. He needs to be interacting socially, not just with women, but with men too, until he learns to be at ease with people, and gains some skill at reading them.

        The bad news is that process doesn’t happen overnight. It’s going to take him a while; but if he sticks with it, he’ll almost certainly improve his lot with women, and he’ll feel a lot more at ease in doing it. He may not ever be the social alpha he is trying (and failing) to be now, but, he’ll at least became more like that; what Evan likes to call “a nice guy with balls”, with a masculine edge, and a more dynamic assertive personality. His dates in future will almost certainly appreciate him more.

        I’m increasingly not a fan of “fake it til you make it”. I think that to be effective in the dating arena, what we project has to come from our inner core, not from aping behavior or spouting lines from some PUA book or website. Better to retool and build up the inside, before we worry too much about how to project it. It’s not a quick fix, but it works a lot better

        1. Chance

          This.  Bam.  I only wish the guy wrote in as he could really use the help.  One has to be an alpha from the core.  Women have many ways (perhaps mostly unconscious?) of determining whether they are dealing with someone who possesses a true masculine dominance.  These methods are constantly employed, and it is practically impossible to successfully fake it over time.

        2. Nissa

          I agree with you on this one. Incongruence is off putting in a way that most people feel but often can’t quite identify.

          What bothers me is that again in this thread I am seeing the idea that “if a woman likes a man, she will have sex with him. If she doesn’t have sex with him, she doesn’t like him”.

          I’m fine with that as a generalization when people realize it’s a generalization that does not in fact apply to all. I’m troubled by the idea that men, nice men, are getting the impression that the woman they are dating doesn’t like him because she is not having sex, in spite of the fact that she is (one assumes) saying yes to dates, being available and showing excitement when they are together. It seems so black and white, which is not my experience at all.

          For example, I have a married male classmate I’ve known for a few years. Every now and then when he asks me how I am, I respond with a smile, wiggled eyebrows and a sly “better now that you are here”. It never fails to make him smile and hug me. He knows that I’m teasing and we both enjoy it, but it’s clear that there’s a boundary. If I were dating a man, I would expect him to ask me about my level of interest if he saw conflicting information, instead of making an assumption (which is a very important relationship skill, IMO).

          In fact, I would argue that a woman who is not having sex is probably a woman of principle, which is something one wants in a potential spouse.

          Whether it’s based on commitment to religion, knowledge of self, desire to value compatibility over chemistry, or simply strong enough to resist the pressure of giving in to the moment or placing someone else’s desires over your own before they have invested in you as a person; it implies a great deal about HER character and reflects almost nothing about the man in question. If anything, it indicates that she does not know the man, but is willing to get to know him, and this shows she is in fact open to more in the future.

        3. GoWiththeFlow

          Where is the thumbs-up, like button!

        4. CSI

          Re-reading this article I think this guy is more than just awkward and inexperienced. He is genuinely a little creepy with poor social awareness. He should have realized earlier that she was finding his clumsy suggestive bantering uncomfortable and unwanted but still persisted. I hope he can learn and improve.

          Its interesting here how intensely most of the ladies seem to dislike any pressure, even subtle, from men for sex early in the dating process. Even later in the dating process. But I think men must maintain a certain level of sexual tension, even if they aren’t interested in sex straight away, or the relationship will be dead in the water.

        5. Buck25

          @ Nissa,

          I read that post with some interest. A few points and observations in response.

          First of all, it’s incumbent on a guy to maintain at least some sexual tension in a potential romantic relationship, at least implicitly. If we don’t do at least a little of that, most women most of the time, will interpret that as  a little too much “nice guy”, not enough edge. If that’s done in a calibrated and non-threatening way, and a woman doesn’t like it, then my personal impression would be that that particular woman either isn’t all that attracted, or our personalities are a mismatch. Not a knock on anyone; just means, in such a case, that our values/priorities/personalities are not in sync.

          Second, I’m not going to concede any moral high ground to a woman for “holding out”. Several reasons. You personally might be doing that, with the best values and intentions in the world, but some women do the same for reasons not so pure and innocent. There are those who will string a guy along with the implicit promise of “sex eventually”, when the truth is, they have no intention of sleeping with that particular guy, EVER. (That, by the way, is every bit as much “using” another person, as a guy using a woman for sex, when he has absolutely no intention of EVER offering more.  Both those behaviors are equally reprehensible, because both are fundamentally dishonest). Men are aware of this, as they are also aware that some women will hold out, or make a pretense of doing it, simply as a power play in a budding relationship. Do bear in mind that most men have experience with one or both of what I just outlined, and that the experience may well color their perception of you or any other woman holding out on sex for a  prolonged period of time. So, should you choose  do that, even when you’re really attracted to a guy, no matter how pure your own motives, you do run some risk of your intentions being misperceived. That’s just reality.

          Men usually have the role of initiator in dating/relationships, which means that when it comes to sex, our role is to push, and a woman’s role is to set her boundaries as to when and where she is comfortable accepting a man’s sexual advances. Note however, that while a man should always respect a woman’s boundaries, he is under no obligation to acquiesce in them; he has every right to decide to move on without being judged or blamed for so doing. For example, if you hold out until marriage for religious reasons, a man is obligated to respect that choice; what he is not obligated to do, is be the one to wait around for you, should that not meet his needs/desires. Neither you nor anyone else has the right to condemn his choice, either way.

          As I see it, it is my responsibility as a man, to make my sexual advances in a manner that is not coercive, not threatening, not abusive, and otherwise is reasonably socially calibrated. That said, it is NOT, it is emphatically NOT, my responsibility to any way apologize for either those advances, or the intent behind them. Quite bluntly, if I am pursuing a potential romantic relationship with a woman I feel strongly attracted to, my intentions ARE sexual, and I make that quite clear and unambiguous. I’m not going apologize for that, nor try to hide that intent behind some supposedly high-minded facade of moral superiority. To do that, is both hypocritical and weak; it is the behavior of a needy, supplicating fawning sycophant and wuss, and unworthy of a real man. When a real man is attracted to a woman, his intent, and his actions, ARE sexual. It’s what we do. Deal with it.

          I’m not suggesting that any man show disregard for any woman’s sexual boundaries. I’m not suggesting it’s ok to keep pushing hard for sex. especially before exclusivity, when a woman has made it clear she’s not ready for that. However, if  you (or any woman) are uncomfortable with any display of male sexual intent from the beginning, and simply can’t handle light-hearted non-threatening sexual innuendo and banter (I think we all know what that is and isn’t), your option is simple-date those men who either don’t show any of that, or are willing to hide it behind some pretense. The world is full of supplicating betas who will accommodate your preference (usually dishonestly, but I digress). Likewise, if I sense that a woman is uncomfortable with that sort of unapologetic masculine intent, I simply don’t date that woman. She’s not wrong; she’s just not right for me

        6. Nissa

          Buck25,

          Thank you for your reply, it was most interesting. I think my difficulty is that what I personally practice is so different from what I see practiced around me. Most of the women I know that find men “too nice” are women who grew up in rougher circumstances, and tend to see aggressive, even negative behaviors as ‘strength’.

          On the other hand, a lot of the men I know that see themselves as “nice” tend to believe it is their “nicesness” that women don’t like about them, when in fact it is usually a lack of physical attractiveness or a genuine character flaw which is turning women off (such as the beta in the LW’s post).

          As to those that string others along (of either gender), of course that’s horrible, poor character and not someone that anyone would want to date, quite reasonably. I would just hope that a man would give me the benefit of the doubt that I might be a person of honorable intentions and actions, before tarring me with the brush of ‘”awful women who I have dated”. It’s fair to ask women to give men the benefit of the doubt when they don’t have all the facts – it seems fair to expect that same benefit.

          I’m certainly not condemning men for wanting what they want, (be it sex or anything else) or implying they should apologize for that. I actually think showing male interest via banter is fabulous when it’s done well (as the LW’s friend did not manage, sadly). I just hope that in addition to that, that there are statements of intention about what the man wants for himself.

          It’s hard as a women to know what a man genuinely wants, as before you have sex, they (in my experience) often say whatever they think you want to hear. This very much gets in the way of knowing that individual. However, when men make statements about what they want, sometimes the truth will sneak out. What is almost foolproof, though, is paying attention to what a man does over time. Which takes actual time. Unless the woman makes the mistake of providing a time line, in which case sometimes the guy just “waits her out” and completely screws up the process.

          If I had to explain myself in that situation, I’d make it clear that I was very attracted, that there was no one else in whom I was interested, I was interested in pursuing a connection and that as hard as it is to not be physical, but that that has never gone well for me. Never. That if I did so I’d be in imminent danger of falling in love, and I wouldn’t want to burden a man with that if it wasn’t what he wanted. But if that IS what he wanted…. negotiation can ensue.

        7. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          First of all, it’s incumbent on a guy to maintain at least some sexual tension in a potential romantic relationship, at least implicitly.

          If a woman is really into a man, the sexual tension will be there organically. The man won’t have to do much to maintain it. It’ll just exist.

        8. Chance

          Emily, I think you are right.  However, I also think a lot of men can’t pick up on whether or not a woman is feeling sexual tension.  As a result, a man may feel the need to stoke and maintain the tension because he realizes that failing to do so during the early phase of dating would turn women off as they would begin to see him as being too passive.

           

           

          Buck, what’s the best place in SC for bow ties?  I want to add to my collection the next time work brings me down that way.  Thanks.

        9. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          I also think a lot of men can’t pick up on whether or not a woman is feeling sexual tension.

          Watch what she does. For example, a man I work with asked me for my phone number yesterday. I like him, but I’m not overwhelmed. If he asked me out, I would say yes, but I’m not going to do anything to make it happen. I’m not interested enough.

          If I really liked him, I would find ways to “bump” into him more often.  (I know where his work area is; I know when he goes to lunch, etc.). I would chat with him more, flirt with him more. When I do run into him, he always says, “I never see you.” I guess he’s wanting more encouragement.

           

        10. Buck25

          @ Nissa,

          Do understand that my response was not intended to be critical;  but I did want to give you a sense of how and why men (even those honest and well-intentioned themselves) can misperceive a woman’s intent in that situation. Of course, misperception can work in the other direction, in other situations. The innocent (both genders) often pay a price for what the not-so-innocent have done before them; and we don’t always know what the man or woman we’re dating may have experienced before. Really makes it even more important that we communicate as honestly as we can, doesn’t it?

          @ Emily

          If a woman is really into a man, the sexual tension is somewhat self-sustaining; But, in those first few dates, she may not be clear on just how into that particular man she is (or will let herself be). Her attraction level is still malleable at that point, and she’s going to continually evaluate the messages he’s sending, both directly (verbal) and more subtle (like the gestures Caroline described in another post). A man therefore has to keep the message consistent; he doesn’t have to escalate it much (if at all) at that point, just maintain. She’s going to be looking for consistency in that, as she will with the rest of what he says and does.

          @ Chance,

          On your bow tie question,  In SC, Britton’s in Columbia would be your best bet; a specialty of theirs, and they usually have a good selection.

        11. Henriette

          @Buck25 – I’ve grown fond of you, during your months commenting here on EMK’s blog.  I wish better for you than buying the company of a woman who doesn’t give two hoots about you… only about your money.  However, I understand (all too well) the feeling that there is no one “out there” for us and I’m a great believe in free will (and free markets) so go and do whatever you feel you need to do.

           

          But please, I beg of you, GET A VASECTOMY if you haven’t already.  I am well-acquainted with too many millionaires who are paying support for children conceived only bc their mothers wanted 18 years of “the good life.”  I’m sure you realise that many women who’ll happily screw a man for status and cash will even more joyously give birth to a child for even more status and cash.  What happens between consenting adults is none of my business, but please ensure that no innocent children are brought into such a loveless, transactional relationship.  Thank you.  xo

        12. Caroline

          Hello Buck-this is in response to your “one good reason” question-waay down below. While I am in the 55 and above category I certainly don’t consider myself anything but average (maybe a 6 on a good hair day😊). But I am a woman who can only think what I really want in a man is universal. While the reasons you listed can certainly be quite initially attractive-those are not reasons I would love and care for a man.

        13. Chance

          Hey Buck, hope this finds you feeling better.  It seems like, often times, all it takes is the sun coming up the next day for things to be better – even if the circumstances haven’t changed.

        14. Nat

          @Buck25: If you’re a man in your 60s who is very well-to-do, who is struggling to make it work with a mate u find sufficiently attractive, I feel like it’s a gd idea to show your success to a certain extent but just not too much. U don’t have to use that money to buy an illusion, as u phrased it. That’s not very emotionally rewarding, plus there’s a good chance u’ll attract someone who one day makes u very sorry u met her. But if that area is one of your strengths, then show it a bit because it clears one of the hurdles that a majority of attractive women will have (even the nice ones)–that they’re not dating a man who’s broke or a financial liability. Balance is everything; just don’t behave like a man who’s trying to buy a woman. That’s not how a quality man attracts a quality woman. It’s like how a woman puts on makeup and a classy flattering dress and flirts a bit on a first date, instead of wearing a backless minidress and talking about how much she loves sex. U sound like a smart person and should be able to modulate your approach so u don’t attract trash. Just don’t be too analytical or pessimistic either, otherwise u won’t enjoy the dating process!

      2. 5.1.2
        Emily, the original

        Buck25,

        If a woman is really into a man, the sexual tension is somewhat self-sustaining; But, in those first few dates, she may not be clear on just how into that particular man she is (or will let herself be). Her attraction level is still malleable at that point,  She’s going to be looking for consistency in that, as she will with the rest of what he says and does.

        It’s all individual and depends on the woman. Some women can become attracted to a man over time depending on his behavior. Maybe she wasn’t that interested in the beginning. Or some women accept dates with a medium level of interest and watch it decrease or increase based on whether he is, as you wrote, consistent. But some can’t. For some, the tension is either there or it’s not. If you are dealing with the third category of women, no amount of being consistent will make up for her low level of interest. It may be possible to “out court” some woman’s ambivalence, but certainly won’t work every time.

        1. Buck25

          Hi Emily,

          Thanks. That pretty much squares with what I’ve observed, and accounts for most of those maddening (to guys) scenarios, where a promising date got off to what seems a good start, date two goes OK, and then it just fizzles out. You’re pretty sure you did things right; no obvious mistakes, she appeared to be attracted…and then the air goes out of it for no obvious reason. There’s a temptation to analyze this to death, looking for where “you blew it”; most of the time, I suspect there was less attraction there on her side in the beginning than you believed…or wanted to believe. It’s not possible for most of us us to pick this up 100% of the time on a first date, so…You plays out your hand, and you takes your chances-win some, lose some.  *shrug*  Apart from those rare instances of  instant, obvious, intense chemistry on both sides, such is the nature of the dating game, trying to make something from not much more than nothing, a lot of the time. I wonder if it’s really worth it. As much as some of the woman here talk about becoming more attracted over time, I’m beginning to think that doesn’t really happen often; not that I’ve seen, anyway. Then again, one only has to get lucky once…

        2. Emily, the original

          Hi Buck25,

          Then again, one only has to get lucky once…

          That’s right! You only need one! And then all the others who flaked on you don’t matter!

          Here’s a question: Do men ask out women they have a middling level of interest in to see if the attraction grows over time? I can’t see using all the energy and emotion to approach someone, develop a rapport, ask  her out and plan the date … only for a marginal interest. But what if she has all the personality traits you like …. but her “ass makes you angry” ?! (I am quoting Amy Schumer. I jest, of course, but you what I mean.)

        3. Chance

          Hi Emily,

           

          To answer your question, yes, men ask out women all the time when there’s a marginal level of interest.  In fact, that’s our M.O.  Men cast a wide net.  If you think about it from the inverse of your persepctive, then it will make perfect sense.  A woman’s a available pool of men are (generally) the ones who pursue her, and she chooses her best option from from this pool of men.  OTOH, men don’t have an idea as to what their available pool of women will be unless they ask out lots and lots of women.  Once they do that, they will get a sense of their available pool at that time in their lives coupled with the stages in those women’s lives.

        4. Buck25

          “You only need one!”

          Emily,

          You know, I keep trying to tell myself that, but I have to tell youth four of the years of the little time I’ve got wasted away looking across the table at one woman after another who was as sexually alluring as a piece of soggy cardboard on my plate, and watching a handful who offered something more slip away (most likely with the same feeling about me)it feels more and more like chasing a mirage. It might feel different, if I was forty-five, or even fifty-five…but I’m not. I wonder id f i’m chasing something that’s never there, not at this time of a man’s life. I see other men my age with money just use it to buy the illusion, for a few years, and wonder about doing the same, just to have something I want during the few years that’ll still matter, ’cause if I’m still here after that, it won’t matter anyway, and I sure as hell can’t take it with me. There’s no reason to think ten  or twenty years out now; now is all there is, and I wonder about salvaging something for the moment and having some pleasure while I can, instead of a frustrating hunt for something that may not even be out there. Not much to show for a lifetime of trying to do things “the right way”, but money and memories. Can’t live  on the first, but even though people say it’s wrong, maybe using the latter to buy at least the illusion of what I can’t win in a futile game…is that better than nothing? Would it feel any worse, than the way I feel now?I don’t know, but one way or another I have to decide, and soon.

          More and more it feels like the last game of the season, and it’s the bottom of the ninth. Behind on the scoreboard and two outs, and there’s no game tomorrow.  I won’t get another at-bat.  I’m looking for one pitch, just to swing for the fences one last time….but maybe it’s time to just tip my hat to the crowd, and walk away…

           

           

        5. Emily, the original

          Chance,

          To answer your question, yes, men ask out women all the time when there’s a marginal level of interest.

          Then why do men get so upset when a woman says no to a second date? Is it just his ego that is bruised? I think a lot of women assume a men is super interested if he asks her out. Me, I never assume anything because you never know what someone else is thinking, but I have a hard time getting excited about going on a date with someone I have a middling level of interest in.

          If you think about it from the inverse of your perspective, then it will make perfect sense … Men don’t have any idea as to what their available pool of women will be unless they ask out lots and lots of women.

          I guess it makes sense, but, to be honest, as a woman it skeeves me out. I want to be chosen. Not selected from a lineup.

        6. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          More and more it feels like the last game of the season, and it’s the bottom of the ninth. Behind on the scoreboard and two outs, and there’s no game tomorrow.!

          Uh oh. Sports analogies! You’ve lost me!

          I have been thinking a lot about mindset and one’s subconscious. I can get into a depressed mindset and start to think … I’m 45. There’s no one left. That ship has sailed. The only men left are the ones who live at home with their mothers. Etc., etc. However, I think there’s some truth to the idea that if I truly believe that and I throw that out into the universe, I will subconsciously make that come true. Whatever I find will underscore and prove what I already believe.

          So start believing there is a wonderful, dynamic, attractive woman out there for you. Start adopting that mindset. Start manifesting that vision. Sorry for the new age gobbedygok, but there is a game for you tomorrow! The season is NOT over! My friend is in her mid-70s and met a great guy.

        7. GoWiththeFlow

          Buck,

          My friend turned 71 this past spring and just celebrated her 5th wedding anniversary with a man she met on match.com.  Both were previously in very long marriages that ended when their respective spouses passed away.

          It CAN happen 😉

        8. Buck25

          It CAN happen”

          GWTF,

          So can winning the lottery, or being struck by lightning. Thanks for the encouragement, but I don’t think it matters. I know women can cut off their sex drive for years, waiting for that mythical illusion called love. I can’t, and I’m beginning to think that for a man my age, chasing “love” is counterproductive in the extreme. I look at all the other wealthy single guys my age, guys I know, and they’re out with arm candy every night, and having a lot of sex, while I get nothing but insipid dates, with old women I hate to even look at. I’ve tried to be attracted to them, but I can’t; I just can’t. The only sixty-plus women on match or anywhere else in my area who are still somewhat attractive, all want a guy ten years younger, and say so. I can’t blame them; if you can get it, go for it. Meanwhile, I hear money and power is the ultimate aphrodisiac, and at this late date, why not use it? What does it matter, really, when I’d rather have one year of beautiful woman and great sex, than twenty of insipid boredom with a woman I feel no attraction to? That’s what I’ve been struggling for with nothing to show but frustration? Why? I’m beginning to think a man would  be better off, if he never even heard the word “love”; it’s nothing but a cheap myth anyway. All the condemnation I hear of men doing what I’m considering comes from women who don’t have what it takes for a man  to even want to buy their companionship; give me a reason to think they even care about what’s best for me; give me just ONE! Tell me again how the women in my age group on Match really think of a man as anything but an ATM and a means of social enhancement with their friends; because from what I’ve seen, that’s all 99.9 % of them want anyway; tell me again, what they  offer in exchange, that I can’t effectively buy from women younger, sexier, and more attractive? Isn’t it all an exercise in mutual using anyway?I haven’t seen a woman yet who cared half as much for my feelings as she wants me to care for hers, so what’s the difference; nobody’s dating out of any kind of altruism; it’s all just mutual using anyway, and the devil take the hindmost. Maybe I’m becoming a cynic, but it’s increasingly looking to me, like the people who judge and condemn wealthy older guys for doing that, are only jealous that they haven’t the means to do it themselves.

        9. Buck25

          Oh, and one other thing. To evan, and any woman on this board: Give me ONE, just ONE, good reason, why a man of 68, with a  degree, a top 1% intelligence, in great shape and by most accounts at least well above average in looks and style, with a high six-figure income (I pay more in taxes, than the income listed on most sites), and an 8 figure net worth, should even date, much less settle for, a woman he didn’t find attractive. Tell me again just what ANY but the very best women over 55 could possibly offer, that ANY such man would want, EVER? I’m waiting, and I’m getting a little tired, because I don’t think, I KNOW, that there are far more attractive women who want that, than there are men with the qualifications I just listed, so why shouldn’t I think, that I’ve been fishing in the wrong pool, with the wrong bait, or playing the game with my hands tied behind my back?

        10. Emily, the original

          Buck25,

          Then go for it, dude! Buy yourself a companion. It’s your life. It’s your money. Nobody’s condemning you for it here. But stop waffling and wallowing … make a decision!

        11. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Buck,

          I had a few random yet related thoughts while reading your last few posts.

          My grandmother used to say that when it comes to matters of the heart, rich men and beautiful women hardly ever hear the truth.

          Evan had a post awhile back on how 9 and 10 level women have less pursuers than the 7s and 8s.  Probably because men prejudge that they won’t have a chance with a 10 so they set their sights lower.  I wonder if there is a similar dynamic happening on the other side of the equation:  Women assume that there’s so much competition for the hot millionaire that they focus their efforts elsewhere.

          I certainly don’t consider myself rich man material.  I’m not gorgeous or glamorous, I’m more of a girl next door type.  Plus I have kids, other family commitments, and I like my job and want to work (although I do limit my hours) so I’m not available 24/7 for last minute business dinners or to jet off somewhere.  I have met a few very wealthy (and well known) men in my life, mostly through work or my grandparents (who had some money) but I figured they all had a line of beautiful women waiting for them so why bother?  I suspect many women think the same way.

          Interestingly, the other day I was talking with another woman about OLD and we both had a similar experience recently.  I was contacted by a man 32 years older than me who said that he understood that he was outside of my age parameters, but he wanted me to know that if I did agree to meet him and “something developed” that I would never have to work a day in my life again. That I would “live in style” and when he passed on I would be a “very wealthy woman.”  Yeah. . . very strange.  I wondered if I was being catfished and didn’t respond,  I wouldn’t have known what to reply with anyway since the whole thing felt icky.

          I forgot about it until my friend mentioned that she had a very similar thing happen to her.  Except this guy promised her international travel and a weekly “allowance.”  Her reaction was the same as mine was.

          As far as seeing other men who are your peers with arm-candy and having lots of sex.  Take their tales with a grain of salt.  I have heard and read more that one account of men who want to give off the appearance that they’re having banging sex with a hot young woman, but in reality, not much is going on.

          By no means should you be with someone you don’t find attractive.  If what you want is a mostly sexual relationship with a very attractive younger woman, as Emily said, go for it!  Just take precautions, set boundaries and make sure the deal works for both of you and that parting will be drama free.

        12. Adrian

          Hi GoWithTheFlow and Emily

          GoWithTheFlow,

          I wonder how does online dating play into the 9s and 10s not having many pursers? From what I hear about online dating those levels of attractive people get 90% of the emails.

          You also have to take into account (how do I say this nicely since I love reading Buck’s comments) his waffling between content and bitter older man about dating. I was surprised to see the old Buck25 reappear as I read a few of his comments yesterday on the hot-tops side bar.

          I am wondering if he doesn’t realize that he is doing this, most women I know aren’t like us men. They will lose attraction even for an attractive person if they get the vibe that he is angry or negative. I am wondering if this is what is really limiting his success with women?

           

          Emily,

          You always speak about men who talk to a lot of different women being a turn off for you. Could you explain the difference from a men who talks or flirts with you and a lot of women from a man who just has a lot of options and wants to see which woman he feels is best for him?

          I am guessing you mean that if a guy comes up to you and flirts asking for your number, then that same night you witness him doing the same to 3 other women, this is what you don’t like; I’m I correct?

          Are you saying that a man who has a lot of women wanting to date him, should explore them, you just don’t want to see it? If so, are you suggesting that a guy who has several women interested in him, should only focus on you (even though he just met you) and ignore all others that night or that he should sneak around even though he barely knows you?

          What if it doesn’t work out with you? Why should he put all his eggs in one basket? You don’t online date, but if you found out that a man who you just started talking to was out on a date with other women while talking to you in the first few weeks, would you stop talking to him?

          I get the impression that you possible mean something else, so could you explain what it is?

        13. Tom10

          Hi Buck,
          I’m with the ladies on this one; you’re perfectly entitled to use any means or methods (except deceit) that suit you to land an attractive mate, so by all means go ahead and use your wealth to achieve this goal if you want. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the concept so you don’t have to explain yourself to anyone.
           
          We all have our unique strengths and attributes and it simply makes sense to identify and display what we can offer those we want to attract. And hey, it’s your life and your money; you can do what you want with it.
           
          But you already know all that don’t you – as you’re a smart guy – which makes me wonder why you’re waging this internal struggle and posting it here?
           
          Personally I’m not into buying things or providing a certain lifestyle in order to obtain a woman’s affection, as I don’t obtain a sense of achievement from it, therefore no satisfaction. It’s just too easy. And my experience has been that when a woman genuinely likes a guy, it’s the overall sense of *who he is*, not *what he provides*, that turns her on. Therefore, obtaining her affection through money would leave me feeling a bit empty, thus unfilled.
           
          But I acknowledge that we live in entirely different worlds dating-wise and I have no way of appreciating what it’s like to be 68 and trying to date. The only thing I can suggest is going out more to places your target market congregate. When my drive for dating/sex was its most intense I went out clubbing 5 nights a week, every week – even more some weeks! That’s how much effort I put into my search.
           
          But either way, I enjoy your comments Buck, so keep us updated with how your dating journey is going!

        14. Emily, the original

          Hi Adrian,

          You also have to take into account (how do I say this nicely since I love reading Buck’s comments) his waffling between content and bitter older man about dating.

          I am wondering if he doesn’t realize that he is doing this, most women I know aren’t like us men. They will lose attraction even for an attractive person if they get the vibe that he is angry or negative. I am wondering if this is what is really limiting his success with women?

          I wondered that, too. The energy emanating from his posts of late is dark, negative and, frankly, ugly. Several well-meaning commenters have tried to give him a different perspective, to no avail. Surely, his negativity is a turn off to women he meets face to face.

           Could you explain the difference from a men who talks or flirts with you and a lot of women from a man who just has a lot of options and wants to see which woman he feels is best for him?

          I meant a man who talks and flirts with you and, in the process, hints at or tells you directly about all the other women who are interested in him.

          I am guessing you mean that if a guy comes up to you and flirts asking for your number, then that same night you witness him doing the same to 3 other women, this is what you don’t like.

          Yes, that would turn me off.

          Are you saying that a man who has a lot of women wanting to date him, should explore them, you just don’t want to see it?

          Yes, if we are in the initial stages of dating, I don’t need to know about the other women he’s seeing.

          If so, are you suggesting that a guy who has several women interested in him, should only focus on you (even though he just met you) ?

          Well … yes!  🙂      But it really depends on my level of interest. If I’ve met him and he’s knocked me over (this is a rare occurrence), then, yes, deep down I will want him to focus only on me, but I acknowledge that is not a reasonable request. You know, there are people who meet and it clicks and the relationship moves forward and there is no interest on either side to date around … because each knows he/she has landed the best.

          You don’t online date, but if you found out that a man who you just started talking to was out on a date with other women while talking to you in the first few weeks, would you stop talking to him?

          My ego would be slightly bruised, but he is certainly within his rights to date around. Again, it all depends on my level of interest. Once I make up my mind I like someone, I am not interested in meeting other people.

        15. Emily, the original

          Hi Tom10,

          And my experience has been that when a woman genuinely likes a guy, it’s the overall sense of *who he is*, not *what he provides*, that turns her on.  Bingo

          I’m thinking of that Nelly song “Hot in Herre.” He’s “waiting for the right time to flash them keys.”

          It’s fine to lead with money, but just be clear why someone is hanging with you.

        16. Caroline

          Buck-I wonder if maybe you are fishing in the wrong pool so to speak. But I’m not talking age. I’m talking venues. Setting out for new adventures. We went out Friday night and had a blast-great music, folks ranging from  40s-mid 60s. All body types and a full range of looks. Mostly singles with a smattering of married couples. Attached and not attached. People flowed from table to table talking. It wasn’t a bunch of solitary men glancing at women in groups like most places. There w as flirting, dancing, laughing and I’d venture to s as y most topped off the evening later with a romp. If you’re finding women who only look at you to up their social status; maybe you’re in the wrong places looking for them. Find a new passion. Or change places where you are currently engaged in them. Quit going to the same old exclusive restaurants, charity events or clubs. If you have a passion for certain cause – don’t just go to the swanky fundraiser. Go get hands on with volunteering. The folks there are the real doers and much more physically active. If you play tennis at an exclusive club-join or visit the more community based ones. You’ll meet people of all walks of life. Even if you don’t meet a special lady you’ll be expanding your circle of friends and enriching your life.

          When I was first separated/divorced I had a girlfriend going through the same thing. We did all kinds of stuff. Things we would have never done in our married lives. I was 46 when I first separated and I dated men from 28-66. We jokingly called d it our “divorce tour”. I believe you would be in a May/December affair already if you didnt worry about being viewed as either lacking a bit of integrity or being viewed as a dupe for exchanging wealth for sex. Everybody wants to be worthy of a love that’s based on their nature and what they give of themselves not their wallet. You deserve that. But it would be naive of me to think women I n your age group don’t tend to be less sexual in general. If you want to pursue a bit of arm candy-go for it.  Just know your current lack of female companionship most likely has not much to do with there not being attractive and sexual women in your age group. You should seek what you desire, just expand your search and maybe your view of the ideal woman will evolve as you enjoy each day with new friends and places instead of wasting your remaining years either alone or disappointed. Never knowing what a May/December affair is like personally may keep you in perpetual disappointment.

        17. Henriette

          Alas, Buck25 has left this site and ain’t coming back.  He announced his departure, so we can all stop advising, cajoling and cheering him, now.  I certainly hope he returns in a year or two and tells us what he found on “the other side…” and if money-for-sex May/December relationships turned out to be as much fun for him as he’d hoped.  I raise my glass and wish him well.

        18. Nissa

          Buck,

          I’m sorry that you are having a hard time. You say, Give you one reason to date women that you don’t find attractive. I assume here that you mean physically attractive. To be blunt, if that’s your focus, that is all you are going to see. But I think your vision is a bit out of focus.

          For example, EMK just had a link to Alain de Botton. I watched his Youtube talk and was struck by how sexy and attractive he is. Now, if you showed me a picture of him. I would not have been attracted at all to the purely physical. But in watching him, I was very attracted to him – his confidence, his passion, his vision. That created an association to his physical features that made them appealing to me.

          And to be blunt again, depending on other people to conform to your standards is a recipe for disaster. Your power is over you, and ONLY you. You can choose. Choose to open your mind to other kinds of attraction, then pick from those whose physical features are acceptable. Think of Mother Theresa. She’s not Ursula Andress, but the love and compassion that flow from her make her physical features lovely.

          You say you want love. Then love! No waiting. You will find that when you give love, you experience love. Love your friends. Love your morning hike. Love your community. Neurologically speaking, people tend to experience one emotion at a time. So if you are filling your heart with love (in spite of it being given instead of passively received), that’s what you are feeling. Not loneliness, frustration or emptiness.

          Last reason? Looking for other people to give you what you need ALWAYS fails. Yes, the world teaches us that love, power etc only comes from others. BS. It comes from inside only. Choosing to use your power of choice is self love. Your body, mind and spirit know this. Yes, coming from a place where you (or anyone else) was never loved makes it a new experience. No, it’s not comfortable or familiar. That doesn’t make it ineffective. And if you can’t do that, then no one else is going to be able to give you love anyway.

        19. Stacy2

          Buck25:

          Tell me again just what ANY but the very best women over 55 could possibly offer, that ANY such man would want, EVER?

          I think you may solve your problem if you realize that she is asking herself the same question (about you). Your money, your intelligence, your everything is yours, and past the child bearing/white picketed fence age doesn’t really matter, does it? Its not like she is going to spend your money. So you can afford a nice trip and a nice restaurant, big deal. That woman probably can afford it herself, without having to endure the company of a cranky old man. Just sayin. As i get older, i realize that most men add absolutely nothing to my life, and i would rather be alone watching the grass grow than listening to their ramblings and complaints. That tiny fraction that does add value is not doing it based on their $$ alone.

        20. GoWiththeFlow

          Adrian,

          “You also have to take into account (how do I say this nicely since I love reading Buck’s comments) his waffling between content and bitter older man about dating. I was surprised to see the old Buck25 reappear as I read a few of his comments yesterday on the hot-tops side bar.”

          As Henriette said, I too have grown fond of Buck.  I think Buck is having a hard go around in the dating world at the moment.  It can be very disheartening to go on date after date and the people you are meeting are more than just not your type, they actually turn you off.  I can make you question why you are even bothering at all.  Honestly, I’ve indulged in similar rants of my own in my head a few times in my life 😉 and I know my attitude was poor because of it.

          A few weeks back, Buck said he was stressed because he was working on a major work deal.  So add that stress on top of the pile and it makes it harder to weather the downers in other parts of your life.

          Buck has also mentioned that he suffers from PTSD from when he was in Vietnam.  I’m not an expert, but when I was in an international adoption program, one of the things I learned is that kids in orphanages often suffer from PTSD from severe abuse and/or neglect, and it changes the hard-wired setting in their brains.  They will often feel a larger response to a negative event than a kid without PTSD does.

          Buck has a good heart.  He’s been through a war, raised kids, and built a business for himself, and has a lot of hard won wisdom to share.  He may need to take a break from dating, and like some of the others have suggested, figure out what he really needs and wants from a woman, then consider his options for how he can achieve what he wants.  And I have no doubt he will go after and get what he truly wants.

          In the meantime, I’m glad he finds this to be a safe space to vent.  I have no doubt that good hearted, wise Buck will be back with us soon full time.  I just hope he’s willing to share all the juicy details 😉

        21. Christine

          I wish Buck well and have no doubt he’ll get out of whatever funk he’s in.  From what I’ve seen of him, this is a temporary storm and he has the brains and wherewithal to get out of it eventually.  I can count, literally on one hand, those lucky high school sweethearts who manage to find love at first sight, and then live happily ever after.

          Just about everyone else I know, though, goes through many, many setbacks before finding love.  However, I’ve never seen any setback last permanently.  I once felt the way Buck did.  It wasn’t that long ago when I went through the worst relationship of my life, with a manipulative and toxic person who made me feel like I was losing my sanity.

          But then, just a few months later…I met the man who consistently makes me feel safe and cherished.  In fact, I was taken aback when I saw a recent photo of the two of us dancing at a friend’s wedding.  I was leaning against his shoulder with my eyes closed, and this dreamy little smile on my face.

          I almost didn’t recognize myself, because I had never looked so blissful before.  In the aftermath of my prior toxic experience, I never would have guessed that this blissful moment was in store for me.  You truly never know what’s around the corner.

          I hope the cliche is also true for Buck, that the darkest hour is before the dawn.  I hope he takes some time to himself to figure out what he needs and then, makes it happen.

  6. 6
    Theodora

    I agree with Chance and Tom10. The woman in this story is just “meh” or “whatever” about the guy, that’s why she perceives any sexual hints from him as “creepy”. The same sex talk coming from a man whom she considers highly desirable would have made her thrilled. Besides, the man seems exactly the opposite of a seducer: inexperienced and naive, the kind of man who is unfortunately unattractive to most women.

  7. 7
    JustAGuy

    I agree with Evan.  This here:

    He said that since I once made the move and kissed him he felt like his comments worked for a bad girl like me. Really, I leaned over on the sofa and kissed him.”

    is a clear example that he has no idea, and may be a creep who sees women only as whores or Madonnas (and not the singer).  Someone leaning over and kissing you means they like you and felt it in the moment.  To go from that to bad girl who likes spanking talk, just weird and creepy.  Then you talk to him and he gets all hurt; he’s clueless.  When you told him he should of apologized it made you uncomfortable and used it as an opportunity to explain how attracted he is to you (in a non-creepy) way or to ask what you kind of banter you do like, if any.

    1. 7.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      JustAGuy,

      You nailed it on why the guy’s sex talk made Katherine feel like a sex object.  He was talking about HIS sexual script.  He wanted a body clad in certain lingerie that he could spank.

      Contrast that to a man saying “I can’t wait until until we are alone.”  It’s inclusive of her and what her wants may be.

  8. 8
    Christine

    I agree with Evan. If I was the woman in the original question, I would have dropped the guy long ago. Sorry, but still talking about sex (regardless of the delivery style: like a dorky 12-year old boy or a suave man) when a woman has expressed that it makes her feel uncomfortable…is harassment. She said no. He still persisted. Her rights and desires were thrown aside to satisfy his wants and his “wants” were forced upon her.  It was the same as if saying, He didn’t  care if he scared her or even if she had a moral standard or virtue, he was going to force his desires upon her. If she hadn’t told him that it bothered her, then it would have been a different story. But she told him her feelings… And after that, he still persisted neglecting her mental/emotional aspect and thus turning her into a sex object.

  9. 9
    Marika

    Such a balanced and fair response, as always, thank you Evan. Just one quick question (I know you don’t typically respond to questions here, but I’ve notice sometimes you do..:)), you say not to be overly judgemental or to be quick to dump guys who are by & large good guys (with flaws), so in this case are you advocating breaking up because the tone of her question indicates so strongly how put off she is by this?

    I’m interested because I find guys often making inuendo-y comments with me, but they are often otherwise nice, well meaning and clearly interested guys. Is this a deal breaker, or only a deal-breaker if it bothers you as much as it does Katherine?

    I’m not a huge fan myself, but I feel like if I broke up with every guy who made veiled references to sex before we were intimate or I felt ready, I’d be knocking out a lot of the online male population (at least in Australia!). Thank you, for everything.

  10. 10
    Karl S

    The dude comes off as a creep because he’s making overt sexual references before they’ve shared sexual experiences (which should be at least third base, if anything). In my opinion, unless you’re stupidly good looking, you should never do that. Simple.
    If he wanted to get more sexual, he should have made only non-verbal offers when the moment was right, or at least offers that weren’t so explicit in order to create a moment so he could gauge her reaction. The fact that they’ve only kissed after 4 dates, yet he wants to make comments about spanking her and thinking about her panties, shows that he is clueless.

  11. 11
    Adrian

    Hi Tom10,

    The short answer to your question is that I love understanding why men or women in general say or do the things they do, or see the things they see in regards to dating, relationship, and the opposite sex.

    …    …    …   …

    Though with that being said, I think I will stop asking questions. It appears from you and chances comments that I am getting a reputation that I don’t want.

    I don’t want to be the annoying 100 questions guy! (^_^)

    1. 11.1
      Tom10

      Hi Adrian,
      Thanks for your response.
       
      Ah don’t stop asking questions on my behalf; I was simply curious really. I was just wondering if you had some over-arching motivation like researching for a thesis or something like that.
       
      “I love understanding why men or women in general say or do the things they do, or see the things they see in regards to dating, relationship, and the opposite sex”
       
      Amen to that; I reckon most of the regular contributors here are the same. In fact at some point in the future I hope to do some serious reading into human psychology as trying to analyze and understand human behavior is fascinating. Particularly interesting is trying to understand why so many people repeatedly behave/make choices which lead to negative outcomes, or even worse, actually harms them. And they know it, yet they still do it. Makes no sense!
       
      Science, for me, is where most answers will be found eventually.

      1. 11.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Just wanna pipe in here and say I really like the regular commenters and community we’ve created here. I appreciate when the debate is thoughtful, rational and respectful and think it’s pretty incredible to have so many smart women and men who take the time to offer their 2 (or 4) cents on each post. This place wouldn’t be the same without you and I appreciate it.

      2. 11.1.2
        GoWiththeFlow

        Tom10,

        “Particularly interesting is trying to understand why so many people repeatedly behave/make choices which lead to negative outcomes, or even worse, actually harms them. And they know it, yet they still do it. Makes no sense!”

        Two words:  Secondary gain.

        A good example is Munchausen syndrome where a person makes themselves physically ill.  They physically suffer, but what they are after is the secondary gain of the attention they get by being ill.  Also the fact that ill people are excuses from many everyday responsibilities, like going to work, doing household chores and childcare, etc.

        If someone is repeatedly doing something, they are getting something out of it, even if it comes with obvious suffering.

    2. 11.2
      Chance

      Adrian, you’re not being annoying at all.  I just wasn’t sure where you were coming from, or where you were going, with your questions.

    3. 11.3
      Buck25

      Adrian,

      Nothing wrong with asking questions; they don’t all have answers, (not clear, definitive ones, anyway); but if we don’t ask in the first place, we don’t learn.

    4. 11.4
      GoWiththeFlow

      Adrian,

      Keep on asking questions!  It shows a willingness to learn, understand, and grow in life.  That’s a very important and attractive quality in a mate.  You will be a wonderful husband for a very lucky woman some day, and a great father too.

  12. 12
    Red

    You’re 4 dates in:

    1) You’re growing “increasingly guarded” the further you get to know him

    2) He’s talked about your underwear and spanking you on numerous occasions before you’ve been intimate and thinks you’re a “bad girl” for initiating the first kiss

    3) He shuts down when you attempt to discuss an issue

     

    Here’s a test for times when you’re unsure: Would you recommend your best friend continue to date someone under these circumstances? My guess is in this case is that you’d tell your friend to cut bait and recast her line.

     

  13. 13
    Kenley

    Buck,

    I agree with Emily.  Go for it and buy the arm candy you want.  One reason I see you might be hesitant is because you really want someone who wants you for you and not just your wallet.    You do realize that you can have the arm candy  who will supply you with sex while you are looking for love?  That’s what I am doing.   And, it actually makes looking a little easier to tolerate.

  14. 14
    Sharon

    To response to this her comments of his sex talk – let me tell you what Humphrey Bogart – the actor – said.

    If you got it you don’t talk about it. And if you don’t got it you talk about it. Obviously he don’t got it so do some serious thinking. Men who talk about sex all the time are not just annoying. They are impossible to live with.

  15. 15
    Adrian

    Hi Nissa and GoWithTheFlow

    From comments that you both have made on this as well as various other post from the past, I am curious to hear you opinions of asking a person you recently started dating to dress more sexually for you.

    Do you think a boyfriend or girlfriend has the right to ask such a thing?

    Is six months after you start dating to soon to ask?

    How would a person even bring that up without coming off as only seeing her/him as a sex object?

    Do you think it is okay to break up with an other-wise good partner just because you lack sexual desire for them outside the bedroom?

    I’m not speaking about dressing slutty or trashy, but dressing to excite your partner. I read a book by an older women speaking about sex and foreplay. In it she speaks about anticipation and build up of whats to come being 90% of good foreplay. Since I have gotten back into dating from a ten year absence and only one long time girlfriend-this is also why I ask so many questions (^_^)-I have noticed the the majority of women my age and younger dress in jeans and a loose fitting shirt or those lose ankle high loose fitting church dresses.

    Nissa and GoWithTheFlow, you both mentioned this on a few other post previously, but so far I have never had a woman dress to impress on a first date (which makes me feel silly because I always do), has dating really changed that much in only a decade? I always let them know it is a date and not just hanging out. It appears that a nice shirt, jeans and high heels is the new style for my age group or maybe it is the fashion of this part of the country (I grew up in the mid-west but moved here because of a promotion).

    I have digressed, back to the main point. I’m thinking women my age and younger don’t know how to strike that balance and assume that if a men wants this, he means for her to dress as a prostitute.

    Or maybe as the author of the book said, many women feel that they shouldn’t have to dress sexy for a man, he should want them for who they are not just their bodies.

    By the way, I do this myself, I’m not just asking for something I don’t give. I dress to impress on first and all successive dates. But I also dress in form fitting shirts to show off my physique for dates in an attempt to dress sexy for dates. I’ve often gotten stares, side glances from women with their guys and even many compliments from women out by themselves or working behind the counters about this. So I know women also like a guy dressing sexy; though never a compliment from an actual girl I’m on a date with (o_O).

    Anyway, how does one ask a partner to dress to excite you more?

    …   …   …

    GoWithTheFlow,

    Why don’t you just get yourself a hot young male nurse! (^_^) There is this very handsome guy in my gym that is a nurse, he says that there are plenty of male nurses now. I always hear about male doctors swimming in dates from all the hot female nurses, GoWithTheFlow, you should grab you a sexy male nurse. Why use online dating when you are surrounded by your own swim suit calendar <(‘-‘<).

    Or is it a myth about all the nurses competing to grab themselves a doctor?

    1. 15.1
      GoWiththeFlow

      Hi Adrian!

      From a thread above, you wrote, “I wonder how does online dating play into the 9s and 10s not having many pursers? From what I hear about online dating those levels of attractive people get 90% of the emails.”

      Evan had an awesome post on this.  Read the comments too for additional insight.  http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-tips-advice/pity-the-pretty-an-ode-to-attractive-women-who-cant-find-boyfriends/

      As for your questions about being unhappy with how a date or partner dresses/presents themselves, I think that if this true to the point where, “. . . you lack sexual desire for them outside the bedroom. . .” we’re talking about way more than just a wardrobe upgrade would fix!  And yes, breaking up with them would be reasonable and understandable.

      I think being unhappy with how your partner is dressing is more of a problem for long establish couples than it is for couples just starting out.  Usually, the story is that in an LTR, one or both partners gets complacent and begins to wear ratty sweat pants and T-shirts while at home.

      The best approach to try initially is to say something positive like, “I really love how you looked in that red sundress you used to wear.  You look so pretty in that type of dress.”  Or try, “I really love it when you wear your hair down like that.”  Positive reinforcement first!

      If an approach like that doesn’t work, and the issue is one of your partner, having formerly been an attractive dresser, now being a slob, you may just have to find a time to sit them down and explain to them how it make you feel.  That is lowers your attraction to them and you are hurt and disappointed because it feels like they don’t value you when they don’t take care of themselves.

      As for women dressing more casually while on dates, yes I’ve noticed this and I think they are not putting their best foot forward.  I’m not sure how to “fix” the situation, however 🙁  Continue to do you and be a good example for your dates and other people as well.

      “Why don’t you just get yourself a hot young male nurse!”

      Oh Adrian!  That made me laugh and brought back memories of a really cute and sweet male OR nurse from when I was a resident back in the day.  Unfortunately (for me) he was living with a girlfriend the whole time I knew him 🙁

      While more men are going into nursing and other allied health professions, it’s still largely a female dominated field.  Add in age differences and workplace hierarchy and you have an environment where the grand total of male nurses who have asked me out the past 20 years equals one.  And I didn’t find him attractive.  Plus it can create huge problems if you crap where you eat.  There is still enough of a double standard out there that male doctors can screw the staff they work with and people will just roll their eyes, but if a female doctor does that, it’s a huge problem.

      Or is it a myth about all the nurses competing to grab themselves a doctor?”

      Mostly a myth.  In any given hospital or other healthcare setting, the people working there are much like the population at large.  The majority are married or in a relationship.  The huge majority of nurses are married or involved with non-medical people.  Nursing for them is their profession, not a means they use to get a spouse 😉

       

      1. 15.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi GoWithTheFlow and Nissa,

        Did either of you read Evan’s latest e-mail concerning dressing sexy for on your online photo’s?

        I would love to hear your opinions on that?

        Especially after reading the extreme comments from the posts about guys wanting to much info, guys picking you up on first dates, and the one about being an sexual object.

         

        1. GoWiththeFlow

          Hi Adrian,

          I did read Evan’s email about dressing sexy for OLD profile photos, and it was quite timely because I’m in the process of getting new photos done and revamping the “about me” and “about you” sections for my own profile.  But, it was already my plan to try and highlight my, ahem, “assets” in the photos since I know that I have to reach an attractiveness threshold before a man will be interested in my personality.

          I don’t view that as an inherently negative thing, and I do get some internal joy and satisfaction from taking care of my health and appearance.  And like most women, I love knowing that the man that I like/love/want finds me attractive and desires me.  (In fact, not knowing whether the man you are with desires you is a unique kind of hell.)  The problem for most women is that what attracts the man/men we want, also attracts the men we don’t want.  Andrew Aitken at The Rules Revisited has a great post on this, “The Wrong Kind of Attention.”

          So while an OLD profile photo with a woman in a figure flattering dress and heels will generate more emails from men who show a sincere interest in getting to know her, it will also bring in messages along the lines of “Nice rack! R u DTF?”  There’s just no way to get one without the other.  If you put in only head shots or are dressed in loose, baggy clothes in OLD photos, you will get less attention, both from the men you want, and the men you don’t want.

          So the advice to women, by Evan (and Andrew at TRR) is to dress attractively/sexy to get general attention from men, then filter the looking only for sex guys out.

    2. 15.2
      Nissa

      I agree with everything GWTF said. Pick someone who starts off very well dressed and give positive reinforcement for that. I had the same problem with dates who did not dress to impress. BUT when I went back and looked at my photos, I realized that I had set a precedent with my pictures that I had not realized. Going back and changing my photos from ‘casual’ to ‘dressy’ made a huge difference. It caused potential dates to see me as dressy from the start, and men who wanted to wear cargo shorts and flip-flops started to self select out.

      Personally, I wouldn’t have minded my boyfriend asking me to wear something in particular as long as he told me he enjoyed seeing me in it, whatever it was. Then my natural desire to please him would have kicked in and I doubt I would have said no. (I’ve never actually had a man ask me to wear anything, so I’m projecting).

  16. 16
    Adrian

    Hi Emily,

    I remember once going to a party and being approached by a very pretty girl I had met briefly through an aunt.

    We chatted for about 15 minutes and she asked for my number. I had very little real world dating experience then (college and high school doesn’t count), and immediately started to consider doing all I would need to in order to make her my official girlfriend.

    My thinking was, she approached me, she asked for my number, so she liked me. After that I planned on leaving the party because I had a girl in my mind, but I was the designated driver so I had to wait for my friends.

    Since I was so unbelievably ignorant of how dating, flirting, and even sexual attraction works; I ignored other girls at the party because I wanted to focus on the girl I liked. I looked for her all night so that we could continue to get to know each other and dance together. What I saw for he next 3 hours was her work the room like a professional! (^_^)

    So talked, smiled, flirted, laughed, and exchanged numbers with so many guys that you would think she was being paid to greet people; my little 20 year old heart almost broke.

    I share this story to show that I do understand where you are coming from, but I would not make the same mistake now as an adult. This is also why I understand completely what Evan means when he says that nothing is real until he/she is your actual boyfriend/girlfriend.

    That girl did not owe me anything and I had no claim on her relationship wise. How could I be special to her and we were practically still strangers to each other?

     

    Also something Stacy2 once said rings very true and shook up my view on dating, “Do you always run from things you want if there is competition and winning it will be challenging?”

    Though Emily since you are a woman and not the one who typically pursues, I am not sure how that quote would apply to you.

    But I do think that men who are not sure how things will pan out long term with you are not wrong for talking to as many women as they can. Like you I don’t like seeing someone I like flirt with others after they just said or did something to make me smile, but that is a part of the law of dating.

    The majority of people feel that they should NOT have to impress or compete with anyone for a potential partner, but if you really want someone why not try harder to get them to choose you over others?

    I think part of the fantasy is that they will just know how great we are and choose us over others, or maybe it is our pride that forces us to refuse to work to win someone. I love that quote by Stacy2, but ironically she strikes me as the type who feels she herself should not work to win a guy, if he doesn’t already see it, then she’ll just wait for a guy who does.

    I believe most men and women agree with you and her and don’t see the value in competing for a person. I want to force myself to no longer act this way, if she is worth having why not compete to show her I am the best choice?

    1. 16.1
      Emily, the original

      Hi Adrian,

      It’s hard for me to relate to your story because I am quite a bit older than you and can barely remember being in an environment rife with possibility like that. The older you get, the less single people you meet, although I am going to something this afternoon where there may be some.

      So I’ll be boring and relate it back to where I work. I was talking to one of my co-workers and he said he had joked one day when talking to some other guys by referring to me as his “girlfriend.” One of them said, “She’s everybody’s girlfriend.” When he relayed that to me, I said, “You’re damn right I am!” Now, 90 percent of the men I work with are married. I don’t take them seriously.  I don’t take most flirtation seriously. I talk with some; I flirt outrageously with others. Why shouldn’t I? And maybe that’s what the girl at the party was thinking. Nobody has locked it down, so why shouldn’t she interact with everyone?

      That girl did not owe me anything and I had no claim on her relationship wise. How could I be special to her and we were practically still strangers to each other?

      I don’t know how it works for men, but for me, there’s usually one guy I prefer over all the others. And I know that pretty quickly. And I would give up the attention of 10 men to land his attention.

      “Do you always run from things you want if there is competition and winning it will be challenging?”

      No, I don’t run from a challenge, but I also won’t compete for someone. It’s a waste of time. You can’t make someone want you. I particularly hate when a man tries to make me jealous. The only response he’ll get from me is the sound the garbage truck makes as it’s backing out of the driveway! If there is someone else he prefers, he is welcome to pursue her.

      I think part of the fantasy is that they will just know how great we are and choose us over others.

      I don’t know if that comes from arrogance so much as it is a desire to have the person we want the most want us.

      1. 16.1.1
        Adrian

        Hi Emily,

        I hear what you are saying because I was/am there. But putting real world observations into practice I see that though it is not politically correct, both men and women do compete with others for someone.

        Evan’s advice centers around online dating, but it can be applicable in the real world as well. If you met 3 guys I’m sure they would assume that they are not the only guy you are talking to, so it would be to their advantage to make sure to impress you more than their invisible (to them) competition.

        Like wise if you met a guy and you thought he was a great catch, I am sure you would NOT believe that you are the only woman who sees that. Would you really just hope he picks you over some woman you can’t see or would you do everything in your power to out shine these other women?

        This may mean smiling a little more than you usually would at his jokes, kissing him a little longer or a little harder, making him something he loves to eat, even though you don’t normally cook, etc.

        All I’m saying is that we all do compete even if it is not politically or socially correct to say we do. But again, I think it goes back to what you told chance, if it is a man you really want, I think you may put in more effort than you would for a guy you are just on the fence about. Though I can’t even count the number of times I have heard women say if he wants her he can have her in regards to a man that she is attracted to but another woman is being proactive with him while she merely waits for him to initiate all the flirting, asking with her.

        …   …   …

        As far as the subject of the post, as a woman what are your opinions on how women react to request for certain sexual acts/fantasies?

        Do you agree with Chance and the other guys that if a women is really into a guy there is not much he can say or ask for that will give her the ick and ewww feeling or do you disagree?

        I think her attraction for the guy has little to do with it, it is his ability to convey his sexual desires in a way that doesn’t make her feel uncomfortable. I think this because I have heard of too many stories involving women losing attraction for guys they were crazy about due to something he did or say that made her feel uncomfortable or disappointed in him.

        I always assumed that outside of threesomes, there is very little difference in what most women are willing to try with her long time husband/boyfriend, so in your opinion, if a guy asked his girl to do A in the bedroom and she said no, then a year later he asked her to do B in the bedroom and she said no, than maybe another year later he asked her to do C in the bedroom and she said no…

        Should women ever have to meet their man half way in the bedroom, or is that that the one place were if he doesn’t like what is not willing to do, he should find someone new? What I am saying is, in your opinion, is the bedroom the one place were there should not be a compromise to make your partner happy if it is something that makes you feel uncomfortable?

        Notice I said uncomfortable, not scared or unsafe; for example the story Evan told in the podcast about his friend dating the woman who refused to give (but I assume she is okay with receiving) oral sex.

        1. Emily, the original

          Hi Adrian,

          If you met 3 guys I’m sure they would assume that they are not the only guy you are talking to, so it would be to their advantage to make sure to impress you more than their invisible (to them) competition.

          To a certain extent, yes, but as I wrote Buck, a man can’t always”out court” a woman’s ambivalence, and sometimes trying too hard to impress makes the woman uncomfortable.

          Would you really just hope he picks you over some woman you can’t see or would you do everything in your power to out shine these other women? 

          I would be showing him that I was interested, yes, but you have to be careful. There is a fine line between showing interest and overly investing in someone who hasn’t invested in you. I think I wrote about this on another post. It was dating coach Matthew Hussey’s idea of yanking the investment lever in a relationship down too far when the other party isn’t doing the same. It creeps people out and makes them lose attraction for you. Just because I show you that I like you the best doesn’t mean you like me the best. My showing you that doesn’t necessarily change your feelings.

          I think it goes back to what you told chance, if it is a man you really want, I think you may put in more effort than you would for a guy you are just on the fence about.

          Interest level trumps everything.

          Though I can’t even count the number of times I have heard women say if he wants her he can have her in regards to a man that she is attracted to but another woman is being proactive with him while she merely waits for him to initiate all the flirting, asking with her.

          So all it takes for a man is another woman stepping in and doing more? What if the first woman is, in fact, his first choice?

          …   …   …

          Do you agree with Chance and the other guys that if a women is really into a guy there is not much he can say or ask for that will give her the ick and ewww feeling or do you disagree?

          It depends on the woman and her personal taste, but even a man you really like can say or do something that kills attraction. For example, the awkward sex talk detailed in the letter to Evan on this post would have been an attraction killer for me. But sometimes the opposite can happen, and man can say or do something that elevates attraction … or at least the mood.

          Should women ever have to meet their man half way in the bedroom, or is that that the one place were if he doesn’t like what she is not willing to do, he should find someone new?Sexual compatibility is very important.Notice I said uncomfortable, not scared or unsafe; for example the story Evan told in the podcast about his friend dating the woman who refused to give (but I assume she is okay with receiving) oral sex.Refusing to give oral sex would be an obvious deal breaker for both men and women. Could you be more specific about what fantasies you are referring to?

        2. Chance

          Hi Adrian,

           

          I just want to clarify:  I’m not saying that the LW didn’t like what the guy was doing because she wasn’t all that attracted to him.  Rather, I am saying that his actions caused her to find him unattractive.  However, I think her problem has less to do with being treated like a sex object and more to do with the fact that she isn’t attracted to him.  The reason I say this is because, if the attraction level is high, the woman often submits to the man’s advances and they have sex by date #3.  At this stage in the dating process, men want to have sex ASAP (obviously), and the woman is pretty much a sex object to most men because that is what they are on the prowl for.  Women know this, and if they see the man as being of sufficient value, they won’t hesitate to play the part of the sex object.

           

          Women have enthusiastically used their sexuality to get what they want from men throughout human history, and they’ve done it with astonishing grace.

  17. 17
    Deb

    Katherine, you are a high-value woman.

    I would just come right out and tell him that he creeps you out when he becomes that 12 year old, horny boy and see what happens. He’s got some very nice qualities and he’s cancelling himself out. This is good practice on setting boundaries and communications. Sounds like you’ll have to dump him anyway, so nothing to lose. However, he could be a nice guy.

  18. 18
    SweetlySensual_Sara

    As a phone sex operator, I deal with dirty talk every day. I think it is actually very common for men to want to talk dirty and I personally think that it’s a great tool to spice things up every now and again. I’ve had to teach my husband how to do it – there certainly is an art form to it and he was just as awkward at first, but I commend this guy and any guy on trying, really. If you are feeling that creeped out, then maybe you should consider telling him straight out. You are entitled to your feelings and if it’s not your thing, it’s just not your thing. Find out where the dirty talk is coming from and if it is really THAT important to him that the two of you talk dirty. If it is important to him and you really hate it as much as you say, then I think this might not be the relationship for you. I am going to side with him on this one, though. I was expecting him to say really creepy, disgusting things, but instead he asked you about what underwear you were wearing. That’s pretty vanilla stuff. Now I guess I know why business is booming! *Before anyone judges phone sex, please know that these guys who call me are not perverts (for the most part) – at least 80% of my clientele are successful, married men.

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