Why Women Should Make Men Wait For Sex

If you’ve ever wondered why it seems that men are okay with no-strings-attached sex while women tend to suffer with this arrangement, watch this video closely.

It affirms everything that I’ve ever written about sex and gender in a very logical, concrete manner. In short, women teach men how to treat them. And if, due to equality, birth-control, libido, societal acceptance, and insecurity, many women are willing to have sex with men who don’t call, pay, commit, or make an effort, then those women are essentially teaching men that they do not have to behave well to procure sex.

You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him.

My advice is not to tell men that they shouldn’t sleep with women; it’s to tell women that you must have men make a greater investment in you as individuals before having sex.

This is why I created the 2/2/2 rule to screen men through the online dating process.
This is why I say you should wait 5-6 weeks before he’s your boyfriend.
This is why I tell you not to have sex outside of commitment.

You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him. If you don’t – because you’re a liberated woman who can have sex whenever you damn well please – don’t be too surprised if a decent percentage of those men never call again. Again, I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment; I will only point out as a dating coach that it tends to lead to sub-optimal results from men because they didn’t have to do anything special to get into bed with you.

Note: there will be no comments about slut-shaming, since no one is shaming anyone, nor calling anyone a slut. Nor will there be comments about how you slept with your boyfriend on the first date and he became your husband. The many exceptions don’t disprove the rule that giving men sex without demanding better treatment is not the best idea.

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Comments:

  1. 61
    Lynn (the other one!)

    (Sorry if this comes through twice; browser issues)

    Right on, EMK. I love this policy, its simplicity and effectiveness.

    I know you’ve mentioned this elsewhere and I’ll echo: be prepared that the majority of guys will vanish. I joke that it’s like the sorting hat in Harry Potter. Them that just wants to get laid will go ‘poof’ when the hat is set upon them. (Or do the slow fade.)

    Which is just fine!

  2. 62
    Hazel

    I’m late 20s and a virgin, thanks to growing up with very strict culture,  in spite of the fact i was raised in the middle of show biz.

    I loved this article. It is practical and real. Love the writers style of writing and honesty!

    The way my generation does it… and i was surprised to see it depicted so well in “Awkward Moment” with Zac Efron,

    Men and women hook up (this means have sex)
    then they decide if they want to date or not.
    then after dating and going back and forth they decide if they are ‘in love’.

    The increase of STDs is continuing, people like me are afraid to even think of sex because it seems like so many people walk around with something. and i dont believe there is such a thing as safe sex, coming from parents that used birth control and a condom and i was the product of that mistake. So STDs are transferred.

    Also the guys I get fall for me, they want more. I have not once had a guy break up with me. I call the shots and I am unemotional (most guys dream girl because i dont get to be a leach). I believe all of this is due to the fact that I dont believe in premarital sex. I see clearly what im getting into.

    Sad is that I wish others would have more respect for their bodies… its kind of gross thinking how much body fluids travel back and forth between people that have slept with so many people.  

    1. 62.1
      Karmic Equation

      Those guys who’ve never broken up with you also haven’t ever proposed, have they?
      Or did they propose and you declined?
      Maybe the guys never “broke up” with you…but did they “disappear” instead?
      Something’s being left out in your self-summary.
      ———————-
      And are you planning on marrying a virgin then, too? Because if you’re not, he has  “grossly” exchanged bodily fluids with at least one someone else already. But if that’s acceptable to you, then aren’t you guilty of helping promote the old double standard? Ok for men to have experience but not for women to have it?
      Sex is a natural act and a lot less “gross” than childbirth. So I’m guessing you don’t on having children either?
      Sex is a beautiful act when done between consenting adults. It’s a fun act when it’s done between adults when at least one knows what they’re doing. When it’s a “blind leading the blind” kind of scenario, like two virgins mating, odds are, as the woman, you’re not going to enjoy it.

  3. 63
    Lynn (the other one!)

    Those body fluids are what get you (and the rest of us) conceived, carried, and born. Nothing gross about them nor is it disrespectful to our bodies to swap them. Is it risky to our health? Yeah. But not disrespectful.

    This is where I think it’s important to be clear that sexclusivity doesn’t mean “Ew that’s disgusting”. There’s no moral judgement to it. Guys aren’t wrong for wanting sex, that’s like making the sun wrong for shining. Rather, it’s self care. I love sex and I know myself very well. I’ll bond like crazy and then get hurt, having mistaken sexual interest for relationship interest before. So being tender with myself is of paramount importance. Even when I’m dying to jump some stranger’s bones :-D I just remind myself what it feels like afterward when they vanish.
     

  4. 64
    Kate

    After reading this post i found myself in shock.  It was like a revelation!  I was so shocked that my mind actually couldn’t hold onto the information as i was thinking about it later in the day.  I am absolutely one of those women who does not handle casual sex well.  Even if i have sex just for the fun of it, i ususally feel ashamed or emotional afterwards.

    Having split from my husband 2 years ago, I haven’t been looking for a relationship of late, but am considering it now.  I have had to learn about this stuff after 13 years out of the game (never mind that he was my first boyfriend).  Having done lots of reading, i had figured that men don’t take girls seriously who have sex on the first date, and so planned not to do that with the guy I’m currently interested in.  But this article made me realise i have completely missed the point!  I never really stopped to think about what I want for MYSELF.

    I want to have sex with this guy because I’m very attracted to him.  But that’s also beside the point.  What i ACTUALLY want from him is sex within the context of an exclusive relationship.  I need to be honest with myself about that, and act accordingly.  I would be devastated if i had sex with a man i cared about and then he split.  Whereas to have sex with him from a place of emotional security would be wonderful.

  5. 65
    Procto

    Who are you to tell women they shouldn’t have sex until you deem it a good time? What 2 consenting adults do in their privacy is their business. Worry about your own sex lives. 

    1. 65.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m a dating coach who gives advice to women who routinely complain that they sleep with men who have no interest in having relationships with them. I’m advocating in their best interests, not in yours.

    2. 65.2
      RustyLH

      I agree with Evan on this. Hopping in the sack quickly is great if you are a man, and especially a man that just wants free sex without a serious relationship.

    3. 65.3
      starthrower68

      The 800 lb gorilla in the room is that if a woman has sex too soon, then she is regarded, more often than not, as cheap, easy, and not worth having. Before anyone tells me they are the exception to the rule, I get that, yes. Exceptions have always been there and always will be.  That does not negate the *general* rule.

      1. 65.3.1
        Karmic Equation

         
        Women DO NOT have to fight their hormones to satisfy some arbitrary man’s double standards. She just needs clarity on her choices and a conviction to carry through with them.
        Most women who have had “blazing chemistry” that hasn’t worked out, usually solves the problem by AVOIDING men who give her that crazy chemistry feeling — This is what most women do, and which I think is similar to cutting her nose to spite her face. Women are entitled to being sexual too! Don’t let society — run by men — brainwash you into thinking  that sex is “only worth having in a relationship” or is the “most intimate of gifts”. These ideas are perpetuated by men because they serve the MALE agenda…to populate the world with “Chaste women” — who won’t even leave them when they’re being treated poorly by the man they’re having sex with — whom men can count on to keep the home fires burning while he is out and about indulging in “boys will be boys” behavior.

        I would suggest that women CONSIDER that ONCE SHE’S RULED OUT a guy as bf-material, she is perfectly CAPABLE of giving in to her attraction for one night and then calls it quits herself. Satisfy the itch and then walk away. 

        In other word, she should consider ONLY having ONS or “too early” sex with the blazing chemistry guy whom SHE’S RULED OUT as bf material. She PROACTIVELY CHOOSES to BE the one who says it’s “one and done” — then she CAN indulge her hormones and walk away in control because she’ ALREADY decided she doesn’t want a relationship with him.
        The problem is when women indulge in “too early sex”, they’re “using” sex or “hoping” that sex jumpstarts a  relationship. If she gives up the idea of a relationship before sex, then IT DOESN’T MATTER what the guy thinks of her and it doesn’t matter if they never see each other again.  Sex is never “too early” if BEFORE  she has sex, she’s ALREADY decided she’s walking away. No attachment to the outcome of sex means that what the man thinks or does afterwards is irrelevant. It only matter what SHE thinks and does.

        1. RustyLH

          @Karmic

          “These ideas are perpetuated by men because they serve the MALE agenda…to populate the world with “Chaste women” — who won’t even leave them when they’re being treated poorly by the man they’re having sex with — whom men can count on to keep the home fires burning while he is out and about indulging in “boys will be boys” behavior.”

          WOW, I don’t even know where to start. First of all, you have very little understanding of men. It seems you simply read what Evan writes and then ignore it totally. Here’s men’s agenda in a nutshell. “Get sex as cheaply, and as quickly as he can with the least amount of responsibility as he can.” In short the sexual revolution was great for the men, especially the top shelf guys who can turn that into many women bedded per year.

          Maybe if you watch that video again, and really take the info on board, you will learn that being able to sleep with a man fairly quickly isn’t a woman’s empowerment thing because many women feel like they have no choice, that the top shelf guys won’t stick around if she uses her right as a woman to CHOOSE to not sleep with him within a short period of time after first starting to date.

          The point is that as a woman, you ARE the master of your own body and that you DO have the right to choose when to sleep with a man…and the message is then that while you CAN sleep with men very quickly after starting to date, if you are looking for a serious relationship, this is going to make it harder to figure out who is there for the sex and who actually likes you as a person enough to want an actual relationship.

          Your FEMINIST rant also shows more lack of understanding with regards to men and which ones will be worth having a relationship with. Some men can control their sexual urges, and some men can’t. Same for women. Some can control their urges, some can’t. Which would you say you are? The point is, how do you find a man who is actually interested in a LTR? And which men are actually worth having in a LTR? Which men can be faithful? Does a faithful man even interest you? If so, how do you intend to at least have a good chance of finding one who will be faithful?

          There are problems with that notion of sleeping with guys you don’t want to seriously date, and then hold out with men whom you do want to date. What are you going to do for the period of time it takes for you to decide that a man is actually there for a LTR and not just for the sex? Are you going to go on dates with other men and have one night stands? If so, the good men, the ones worth having in a LTR won’t want you. In the same manner, a good woman isn’t going to want a man who she is dating, and supposedly in a relationship with, but then, because she is not having sex with him yet, he is sleeping with other women.

          That is some seriously twisted logic to think that a woman exercising her choice to not sleep with every man who takes her on a few dates is somehow playing to men’s master plan to subjugate women. In fact, it’s downright crazy. Men want cheap and easy sex…yet you think not giving them what they want is somehow part of men’s master plan? WOW.

        2. starthrower68

          I respect your opinion as I do Rusty’s, whether or not I disagree.  I know what’s going on in the culture and know that the genie isn’t going back in the bottle.  Everyone has the free will to do as he or she pleases.  I choose a different path, and so far, the worst consequence I can seem to come up with, is no man may want me. I accept that, no bitterness or acrimony whatsoever.  I decided that is a consequence I can live with.  I harbor no animosity toward those who choose as the majority does. :-)

      2. 65.3.2
        RustyLH

        Starthrower, that is nothing more than some weird attempt to lace women in the victim role in this situation and make men the bad guys. Who thinks like that anymore? Maybe your grandmother, if she’s still alive, or your mother…but most of society has moved way beyond thinking like that. People who think like that are not the norm, they are the exception these days. They are the exceptions, not the general rule. The general rule these days is that she is allowed to do these things because she is a strong and independent woman.

        Also, you overestimate the amount to which men get away with it. There are many women who will not date a man who is a player, if they find out the true extent to how much he is a player. But then again, I’ve seen where women who normally would reject a guy based on that, then flop on their back, legs in the air because the guy was a super great catch…10 looks and lots of money.

        An older friend of mine and his wife were watching the Super Bowl with some other friends. The wife mentioned that Bruno Mars was known to be a womanizer. I don’t remember exactly what she said but it had to do with Bruno being the bad guy and the women being victims. I reminded her that the women were not victims because a woman cannot be womanized if she treats a man like him as if he is any other man. She resisted that at first but I told her to look at it like this…those women that meet him, and then sleep with him, will usually not sleep with a man on the first date, let alone without even having had a date, yes many of those “womanized” women happily go to a private room, or to the tour bus, knowing full well what is going to happen. I know girls who ditched boyfriends at concerts when they got invited back stage, but were told that only the women were invited. Of course Ph.D researchers in this field would say that women do this because it is what evolution rewarded all along. It’s called cuckolding. Not every female can get the Alpha male, and the alpha male may not have the best resources, so for instance, a duck may pair up with a male that has great resources but then secretly mate with a male that has better genes. She has now tricked the cuckolded male into helping her raise the other male’s offspring.

        The simple fact SEX itself is treated far differently today than it was a long time ago. I think that video Evan posted is far more realistic about this issue. People will be more shocked if a woman holds out, and does not have sex, than if she does have sex. The general rule today is that women will have sex with men they want to be in a relationship anywhere from the first date to somewhere after several dates. The exception are women who hold out. The truth is, most people don’t even know what you are doing unless you yourself are making it known. Most people may think you are sexually active, and will view this as normal, but they won’t know how many partners you have, or how quickly you sleep with them, etc,,,unless you make it known. And that goes for men also.

        1. starthrower68

          Rusty, Rusty, we will have to agree to disagree agreeably.  I am have never been part of the hip and cool crowd.  I rather like being a social misfit. Takes a lot of pressure off not having to conform. ;-) 

        2. RustyLH

          The “in-thing” is to go on a date or two or 3, decide that you like a guy enough to pursue the possibility of a LTR, and as soon as you make that decision, you start sleeping with him. That’s the “in-thing.” That’s what the “cool people” do.

          Evan, and others are offering a different path for women who find themselves doing just that, time after time, and ending up feeling that the only thing the guy was after was a sexual relationship, and as soon as he found somebody new, or got tired of her, he left. It’s a better option for a woman who is sure she wants a LTR and is tired of wasting time with men who absolutely do not want a LTR with her.

          It is a woman’s right to say “no, not yet,” just as much as it is her right to decide she wants sex right now. I find it really ironic in a comical way when what most men want is the ability to sleep with every woman they can, as fast as they can, with as little investment as possible, and in effect, simply use women for their own gratification, and yet somehow, when you offer a strategy to help stop that from happening, it is somehow twisted as being for men and against women.

          It’s as illogical as saying that making a man pay child support is somehow for men and against women. It’s Cray-Cray! haha

  6. 66
    RustyLH

    I’ve been reading the replies here because one lady said she felt challenged to go back and watch the video again, and after listening to a man’s perspective and then watching it again, she came away with a different take.  That is encouraging because quite frankly, I was mystified by many of the comments.  The point being that the video was right, our grandfathers were not having near the amount of sex that the average person does today.  Were they all virgins when they got married?  No, but some were.  Very few are today, if any.  Most of the men that had the lowest morals and so bedded the most women, couldn’t hold a candle to even an average player today.
    OK, so sine men want no strings sex more than women, and want marriage less, then obviously this turn about has greatly benefited them the most.  Have women benefited in that they aren’t judge for sleeping with several guys…or even 30 to 60?  Yes, many women even in their thirties have admitted to between 30 and 40 lovers, including one night stands, to me.  Now if they aren’t honest, then it is far more likely the numbers are far higher.  And yet none of them ever said they were glad they had slept with every one of those guys.  More often than not they expressed some regret over some of the men.  Wished they had not.
    OK, point here is that some women seem to be under the impression that the video was designed to scare women into not having casual sex, and that this is an attempt to push women back into the 1940’s.  Completely not true.  It is saying that women’s power is in the withholding of sex, not in the free granting of it.  It’s the age old question of why buy the cow when you are getting the milk for free, and that is a very real thing these days.
    But as Evan points out, you don’t have to go all the way back to the age of no sex before marriage.  He is just saying that if you want a relationship, then you should stop giving sex away for free very quickly in the relationship.  Only when you feel assured that he is there for a committed relationship.  You are still in control of determining when you feel that has happened.

  7. 67
    anthony

    I have just read most of the coments and cant believe whats going on sex. sex and more sex  I am a widower 45 yrs married and 2 sons’ everyone is making  dating so complicated especialy women .no need for all that crap. just rely on what nature provided phormones  even in the dark you could find a mate by using your noses if you rely on your senses don’t listen to any written rubbish  especialy from complicated women both come to the table with no gifts   let your senses do the work ie phormones”

  8. 68
    George Robicheau

    I really get pissed of when women don’t want  to have sex. Their bodies and men’s bodies were designed by a higher power so that they could give each other pleasure. Sure it produces children bout we all know that in our life time we will have sex 1,000 ties but we will not have 1,000 children. I must admit that I have found a few women that would sooner have sex than eat. Some women gladly give their men oral flop to completion. A man doesn’t think twice about it. The’ll do anything to make her love it. Science has revealed g spots , Which was never talked about until the Internet disclosed it.  A man with that info can make a woman crave sex. A woman can fall in love quickly with a man that does it to her the first time and most men love to please their women. The trouble is that a woman is really selective . She’ll go out with guys but only allows certain men to “fool around” but they’ll go out on expensive dates e with other men to no avail.

    1. 68.1
      RUkiddingMe

      RE: “I really get pissed of when women don’t want  to have sex. Their bodies and men’s bodies were designed by a higher power so that they could give each other pleasure.”
      You get pissed? Really? And is that why I  have 2 breasts, a vagi*na and small waist? aLL designed for you right? So I could give a fine man like yourself unlimited pleasure?
      Well that’s funny, I thought my breasts were here to nourish a baby and the pu**y was built as a means for  giving birth? And chemistry and attraction? And I’m rather certain I would not find it a great “pleasure” if it were my duty to deny no man this god given machine – to do as he wishes, when he wishes? SHAME ON ME, I’m an awful person! Boy do I feel stupid thinking there was some magical thing that we call “chemistry” OMG, it’s an illusion made up in our heads, I guess we ARE crazy! And what about “attraction” is that fake too? Cuz I was sure I felt some kind of  “invisible magnet”! I even had a name for it – I called it “attraction”. 
      Well thank you George Robicheau
      thank you for enlightening me – I’ll be sure to make myself  available so you can use me as you wish, I’ll tell my friends too!

       

      1. 68.1.1
        Brian

        RUkiddingMe: Tell me then, what is the clitoris designed for?

      2. 68.1.2
        starthrower68

        I wonder what higher power George is referring to? Maybe Buddah?  I don’t think the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gives free license.  Not sure about Allah but I think that one is even more strict.  Oh well, another debate for another time. ;-)

  9. 69
    Brian

    This is ridiculous, you may attract guys that are serious about you. Or you may just attract guys that are persistent that know they will get laid after a certain time and then they’ll leave you after that time anyway. Trust me I know I’ve had sex with girls that tried making me wait, do you think we’re unaware of the fact that girls make us wait sometimes? We can wait too if we know we’re getting laid. We’ll just talk to other girls in the mean time. You’ve basically exchanged sex for time and that is in a way similar to prostitution just replacing time with money.
    Just because you feel hurt after sex and realise you’re going to be single for a long time, doesn’t mean you should make a guy wait, you’ll be attracting the same guys but they’ll leave after a longer time period. It isn’t about investment it’s about principle.
    Why don’t you remove the guilt have as much casual sex as you want, and if you want a relationship, go out with the guy after sex? Grab some food, see a movie? etc  If he doesn’t want to then he’s not the right guy, move on. You want a relationship with a guy that doesn’t have a madonna-whore complex someone that is comfortable with you having sex quickly but is still willing to see you. Be tougher than that and you’ll get a great boyfriend, or you could listen to this lame advice and have a bunch of flaky relationships. 

    1. 69.1
      RustyLH

      Brian, you seem to think women are stupid.  You think they don’t know that you know they are making you wait?  They know.  They also know that you may “go talk to other girls,” but a woman who is aware will eventually clue into the fact that you are seeing other women on the side.  And when she does, she drops you.  Waiting allows her to see a bit of your character.  She is aware that you may not like that you have to wait, and that allows her to see how you react to not getting your own way.  It also allows her to see whether you ca be truly loving and romantic even when you aren’t getting sex.  Like it or not, there are many good reasons for the woman to make the man wait.  It cracks me up when some guys like you post like this.  It shows that you are terrified of things going back to the old ways, where a man had to be a good man if he wanted a good woman in their lives.

      1. 69.1.1
        Lynn (the other one!)

        Rusty, what a great point about revealing one’s character. If I think of it that way, ‘sexclusive’ has saved me lots of time and potential heartache in that way too (besides wondering if he’ll contact me after sex).

        If a guy’s response to waiting for sex is a tantrum of some kind, or cutting and running (or both :-) ), guess what? He already self identified as someone I don’t want to spend energy or time on, trying to build a relationship. Talk about a lack of grace under pressure. Talk about a lack of maturity and character. I’d way rather find that out very early on. So I’ve tried to shift my attitude to “Thanks for letting me know so quickly that you’re not the right person for me!”.

  10. 70
    Brian

    No I don’t think women are stupid, not sure where I wrote anything about that. I do think this post is though. I think sex is fun and shouldn’t be something that is worked for. It’s not a prize but a gift, and you’ve assumed I’m talking about a minikin relationship, I just have friends with benefits and I’m honest about seeing other girls from the start, so none of my girls leave me for that reason because they already know I’m sleeping with other girls. Maybe you’ve linen my identity into some stereotype already based on my first post, but I stand by what I saif. And if a girl leaves me im cool with that, there’s plenty of fish in the sea, I leave girls that don’t have sex quick enough because in my mind a girl who makes sex a chore is not worthy of my time, and I believe my character is good. 

    1. 70.1
      starthrower68

      And you’ve revealed your character.  You won’t wait for sex, fair enough. You’re showing your inability to delay gratification for a greater purpose.  If you do that with sex, I’d be expecting you to behave the same in other areas too, such as finances. Chances are, the girls that acquiesce to you either don’t have the wisdom to pick up on that or they don’t really care.  If I were the mother of a girl you’re pursuing, I’m going to do my level best to discourage and hold out for someone with greater depth and maturity.

      1. 70.1.1
        Tom10

        @ starthrower
        “You won’t wait for sex, fair enough.”

        Agreed – it is fair enough. Brian is fully entitled to move on to another woman if their timelines don’t align. There is nothing wrong with this.

        “You’re showing your inability to delay gratification for a greater purpose.  If you do that with sex, I’d be expecting you to behave the same in other areas too, such as finances.”

        It doesn’t show an inability to delay gratification for a greater purpose – it shows different values regarding sex. Conflating sexual values with financial responsibility is a lazy assumption, thus a terrible dating strategy.

        I have similar sexual values to Brian (not willing to wait); however, I behave extremely sensibly with regards to finances, career, education and all other areas of life.

        Using your logic, if a woman guessed my sexual values according to the way I behave in other areas in life she would totally misjudge my character. The thing is, most do – wrongly.

        “Chances are, the girls that acquiesce to you either don’t have the wisdom to pick up on that or they don’t really care”.

        Or simply, again, that they have different values to you. We have agreed that women aren’t stupid and know that men want sex.

        “If I were the mother of a girl you’re pursuing, I’m going to do my level best to discourage and hold out for someone with greater depth and maturity.”

        Ironically, this will probably make her more likely to date him.

        1. starthrower68

          Well then let us be glad we can agree to disagree agreeably. And yes, my daughter might well choose to take such a risk. She has free will as do you or Brian.  But I’m not doing my due dilligence as a parent not to try to guide her.

        2. Tom10

          OK we will agree to disagree agreeably so.

          On a side note I personally don’t think it is within the remit of a parent to guide their children (over 18) on who they should or shouldn’t date. However, as I’m not a parent I will defer to you as having greater expertise in this area. 

        3. starthrower68

          Tom my intention is not to convert you or to tell you what to do.  I will attempt, however, to maybe to get you to see things through a different set of eyes.  Again, I do not disagree with your right to not pursue a woman who does not have sex with you on your timetable.  Nobody is arguing that.  But you mentioned that the women who decided to move on judged you wrongly.  I understand that in your mind, they did, as you say that you are able to delay gratification in other areas.  But I would again, humbly submit, that perhaps those ladies are hearing a different message.  I am only speculating, as I cannot know what they are thinking, but I would perhaps guess that maybe they feel you would always put yourself first in the relationship, or perhaps they interpret your rule (for lack of a better word) as “it’s my way or else and if you don’t do things my way, then I will dump you”.  Are they wrong?  I have no idea because I don’t know you or your history.  All I can tell you is that perception is everything.  It might be too risky a proposition for them to stick around for.  That does not ignore the fact that there are women who feel differently and have no qualms about having sex on your terms.  That is not a comment on them one way or another, other than to acknowledge that they’re out there.   But I think there are women out there that will take no more kindly to having to be on a timetable for sex than there are men who take kindly for having to be on a timetable for commitment.  

        4. starthrower68

          One more thing on parenting.  What my child does AFTER he or she moves out from under my roof is out of my control or jurisdiction, I agree.  If they are paying their own bills and making their own way in the world, then I have ceased to have that authority.  But if he/she is still under my roof, dependent upon on my finances and my good graces, then I get to make the rules for conduct.  And if he/she does not agree, he/she may move out at any time :-)

        5. Tom10

          @ Starthrower
          “you mentioned that the women who decided to move on judged you wrongly.”

          I either communicated that poorly, or you misinterpreted me. In fact it’s the opposite: women don’t move on, because of the way I behave sensibly in other areas, such as finance.

          My point was conflating sexual values with financial values works both ways. When women see that I’ve got sensible financial/life values which align with theirs, they incorrectly infer that my sexual values must also be aligned with theirs, which is not necessarily the case.

          I agree that if your children are living under your roof and dependent on your finances then its fair for you to make the rules for conduct.

      2. 70.1.2
        Brian

        1. I agree with all of Toms points.
        2. Just to argue more on the point you made about delayed gratification,  there’s been tonnes of examples of people waiting for marriage to have sex and not enjoyed it and it hasn’t turned out “special”, then they cheat on their spouse because they never got to experience sex with someone else and their curiosity is peaking. This is just some belief made up by society and what your parents will tell you, and I’m not judging your values, that’s your choice. But to accuse me of having an inability to delay gratification for a greater purpose is disrespectful to my values.
        I believe waiting to have a special first time in sex is the same as waiting to have an awesome first birthday, or first drink of alcohol, you’ll always remember it no doubt, but it doesn’t need to be special and it always gets better, and it can be with anyone, that’s just my beliefs.
        I think most people who say they had a special first time are normally lying to themselves to protect their ego from missing out on all the sex they could have had before marriage. But then again I may be making assumptions and you may just have different values. 

        1. starthrower68

          This is just some belief made up by society and what your parents 

          I would humbly submit to you that your assertion people should wait until marriage for sex is the exact opposite of the actual message society is passing along.  Just based on what I have learned on this blog alone (not even to mention just being out in the world at large) is that the majority of people view and enjoy porn, pre-marital sex or sex after divorce, etc.  It’s accepted by the majority.  I even heard a statistic, and I have no way of knowing if this is correct, that 63 percent of Christians are ok with premarital sex.  

          With regard to what my reasons are for why I follow the path that I do, I can assure you it has nothing to do with ego.  I don’t think it would be of any use to explain the why’s here.  But I can tell you that I have long since made my peace with being undesirable and undateable, without bitterness or acrimony. :-)

           

        2. RustyLH

          Tom & Brian.
          What a load of garbage.  You have a right to your opinion.  I get it.  You are men and men like the way things are right now. Or should I note that some men, and some women like the way it is right now.  However, women DO have the choice not to engage in casual sex in the hopes that a relationship will grow out of that sex.  I get it..you fear that idea catching on.  Heaven forbid women recognize that many men are just interested in the sex, not marriage.  Heaven forbid they learn that it is better not to waste time on “users” will help them find a marriage minded man faster.
          A woman has the right to choose to have casual sex, and she has the right to wait.  If you won’t wait, then you really aren’t worth her time.  You are doing her a favor by leaving.  Don’t kid yourself that you are special.  You aren’t the only ones that have good things going for them.  It’s as simple as this…a man who is actually marriage minded, when confronted with the possibility of marrying the woman of his dreams, will wait.  If he won’t, he’s not very special, and more importantly, he doesn’t see the woman as special.  he only cars about his own sexual gratification.  If the woman is looking for marriage, not sexual gratification, it is better for you to walk.  Please do her that favor.  You are right Brian, there are plenty of fish in he sea.  So plenty of women willing to give you the casual sex, and plenty of men who would think highly enough of her to wait.  Look at it like this.  What if she gets really sick, breaks her legs, or back, has a rough pregnancy, etc.   If you can’t wait a few months, why should she believe you would wait for her to be in a physical condition to be able to have sex again?  She shouldn’t.  Being Alpha isn’t about being a selfish prick, it’s about being a strong man that isn’t pushed around…by a woman…by other men, or by his own dick.  An Alpha has principles and stands by them.  He’s not a tumbleweed who is easily blown about.  An Alpha is in control.  How can he be in control if he can’t even control his own sexual urges?

        3. Brian

          That was my mistake, I agree with you. Majority of people now days don’t wait till marriage, society has changed belief systems to what it was a while back in terms of pre-marital sex.
          And yes you don’t have to explain why, they’re your beliefs. 

        4. Brian

          @Rusty
          “However, women DO have the choice not to engage in casual sex in the hopes that a relationship will grow out of that sex.  I get it..you fear that idea catching on. ”
          This article won’t convince majority of society to wait till marriage,  as we have figured out majority of people enjoy pre-marital sex now days and I am happy with that because that aligns with my beliefs. I always find a new girl to have sex with and I doubt society will change back to the old belief system of waiting till marriage. So I am not scared of that idea.
          “A woman has the right to choose to have casual sex, and she has the right to wait.  If you won’t wait, then you really aren’t worth her time.  You are doing her a favor by leaving.  Don’t kid yourself that you are special.”
          I agree, if she wants to wait she is also not worth my time. She is doing me a favour by letting me know we are not compatible. I never said I was special.
          “Being Alpha isn’t about being a selfish prick, it’s about being a strong man that isn’t pushed around…by a woman…by other men, or by his own dick.  An Alpha has principles and stands by them.  He’s not a tumbleweed who is easily blown about.  An Alpha is in control.  How can he be in control if he can’t even control his own sexual urges? ”
          This is interesting, I never planned on being “alpha” I’m just enjoying casual sex. Does having casual sex make you alpha now days? Girls have casual sex too, does that make them alpha? And I think controlling my own sexual urges and having a monogamous relationship or marriage would be against my own biology, restraining sexual urges just leads to caving in and cheating later down the line. Unless you have the willpower of a priest or nun. I prefer to be upfront and let girls know I’m sleeping with other girls. I’m not saying monogamous relationships or marriages are bad, but I personally wouldn’t do it for now anyway, because I know I would end up sleeping with another girls. You can call that low control for sexual urges and I agree it is, but since when did we have to control our sexual urges when it comes to having open relationships?
          ” An Alpha has principles and stands by them.” Assuming I want to be “Alpha” Having casual sex with girls and being honest about it are my principles, and I will stand by them.

        5. Tom10

          @ RustyLH
          “Don’t kid yourself that you are special.”

          Who said they were special? The market will determine the power that each individual has to play the dating game, and how special or not special they are.

          “How can he be in control if he can’t even control his own sexual urges?”

          But who isn’t in control of their sexual urges? If he chooses to move onto women with similar values he is in control of his urges. People who can’t control their sexual urges end up in prison.

          Look, no-one is saying that women have to sex on a guy’s timetable. I actually agree that if a woman is looking for a relationship then it is sensible for her to wait for sex to determine whether the guy is only in it just for the sex or a relationship.

          Of course women have the choice not to engage in casual sex otherwise, er, it’s rape – I don’t fear any ideas catching on. However, as much as a woman has the right not to have sex, Brian has much right to walk. There is nothing wrong, or “alpha” or “being a selfish prick” about this. It is his life and sexuality to exercise as he sees fit. There is no right or wrong here, just different.

        6. Brian

          @Everyone
          I don’t know for sure, but it seems like I’ve been pinned into a stereotype of guys that have sex with girls and leave them. And I am getting all the related accusations and insults heading my way. “alpha”, “selfish prick”, “special” I’m not some macho alpha dude haha, if you met me in real life I’m pretty humble and a nice guy. I just like sex, and I’ve thought about my beliefs long enough to know what I want. So stop using me as a representative of whatever you want to prove a point for, it’s getting weird haha. Argue on the video, I’ve made up my mind, and I’ve accepted that girls will make their own choices too, either way I’m happy with the current “sex economy”.

        7. RustyLH

          I won’t stop using you.  You have explicitly stated that a woman is not worth waiting for.  If she isn’t worth waiting for in the beginning, you won’t wait any other time.  I don’t think most women would find that very appealing.   You aren’t the type of guy they could count on. 
           
          Tom you are wrong.  There is right or wrong.  Why are you here?  This is about one thing and one thing only.  Women who are seriously searching for a husband, not searching for casual sex.  This video simply says that if they want to find men who are serious, men who aren’t just looking for sex, and all you have been getting is guys who take the sex as long as they can get it, but bolt when it gets real, then try something different.  Try making the guys wait for sex, until she feels reasonably certain that he is serious about a real relationship.  Now, if you are a standup guy, if you don’t want to be WRONG, then you don’t try to convince these women using “game” to get them to have sex.  If you agree that you walk when they want to wait, then there is no issue here.  We get it.  You don’t want to wait.  So the women willing to listen to the advice in the video are not for you.  You or Brian.   You are the kind of guys they absolutely do not want, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good looking you are, no matter how big your house is, no matter what degree you have.  They want a higher class of man.  One who thinks she is worth waiting for.   Once again, you’ve already noted that you are not that guy.  You are not what they are looking for.  They want somebody who is good enough for them.  Not a lounge lizard that learned Game.

        8. Tom10

          @ RustyLH
          “Tom you are wrong.  There is right or wrong.”

          Fair enough. You are right and I am wrong, for you are the ultimate arbiter of what is right and wrong. Do you know who else argues like that? Islamic fundamentalists.

          “Now, if you are a standup guy, if you don’t want to be WRONG, then you don’t try to convince these women using “game” to get them to have sex.”

          But Brian said that he prefers “to be upfront and let girls know [that he is] sleeping with other girls”. How is that using “game” to get them to have sex? He is being quite upfront and honest.

          “If you agree that you walk when they want to wait, then there is no issue here.”

          Agreed – there is no issue here.

          “So the women willing to listen to the advice in the video are not for you.  You or Brian.   You are the kind of guys they absolutely do not want.”

          Agreed. And Brian doesn’t want them – because their values don’t align. Everyone is happy.

          “They want a higher class of man.”

          Higher class? Not necessarily. One’s values makes no appeal to class. People who prefer to delay sex are not of higher class than those who prefer not to.

          The thing is, Rusty, you are not the ultimate arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. You are just another guy with another opinion – and your opinion is not worth any more than Brian’s.

          We have agreed that it is reasonable and sensible for women who want relationships to delay sex. What is not reasonable, however, is for you to blast others who prefer not to wait.

        9. tamara

          @ Tom and Brian: I actually have no problem with this POV, as long as u’re being honest to the women and not claiming that u’re exclusively dating. Women are allowed to sleep around, and so are men.

          I just wonder about what kinda women are playing along with that; plus don’t men eventually desire a woman with higher standards (since those are generally a woman with better qualities)? There’s no way u can convince me that these women are the top-shelf variety, because I have many girl friends who are of that level–beautiful, smart, educated, good job, good personality–and apart from maybe a few yrs in their late teens or early 20s, they would Never agree to be in such a relationship with a guy who was sleeping around at the same time. Various reasons–self-respect, fear of contempt from friends/family, STDs etc. Even for me–and I wouldn’t consider myself the topshelf because I don’t have a gd job unlike many of my friends–I wouldn’t sleep with a guy who I knew was sleeping with other women, not even in my casual-dating phase in early adulthood.

          So I have to conclude that u’re just taking to bed any woman who’ll acquiesce , knowing that u’re settling for women who aren’t wonderful. Meanwhile, if u’re lucky, u’re probably meeting some great women along the way but missing the boat with them because they don’t wanna join a harem. U’re totally free to do that, and it doesn’t affect me. Those women with great qualities are hopefully ending up with the guys of their level who are faithful long-term partners. 

          (Btw I agree with u that u can be sleeping around and still have good morals; however generally in the eyes of women this lowers the overall ‘score’ they give u, and now u will only be attractive to women who are at that lowered ‘score’ or below).

        10. julia

          @Tamara

          Women decide they want to have multiple partners because it suits them. I know plenty of women like that. Either they don’t have time for a relationship because of work or education or maybe they really don’t prefer monogamy. As for “higher quality” women. You define higher quality as women who wait to have sex. I would argue there are many things that make someone a high quality partner, its not just the speed at which we have sex that defines us as a human being. The men I personally prefer to date don’t define women as “high quality” based on how long they delay sex. 

          I also don’t have a problem with Brian or Tom, they are honest about what they want and can provide. If it suits their partners then all is good. 

        11. RustyLH

          “restraining sexual urges just leads to caving in and cheating later down the line. Unless you have the willpower of a priest or nun.”
           
          Maybe for you, but that simply says you have no self control.  My father never cheated on my mother, and I never once cheated on a wife or girlfriend.  There are far more men out there with self control than you think.  But one thing I wonder about is why you are on this blog?  This blog is about people looking for lasting monogamous relationships.  You self admittedly don’t believe in them, at least not for yourself.

        12. Tom10

          @ Tamara
          “in the eyes of women this lowers the overall ‘score’ they give u, and now u will only be attractive to women who are at that lowered ‘score’ or below”

          I can see how you came to that conclusion as that is how you value men. However, my experience has been different.

          I find women will tend to be quite forgiving of a guy’s history if they consider him a “great catch”. So the way for a guy to “get” a great score from women is not actually to behave like you, rather it is to be a great score.

          So by being the best person I possibly can, women will often overlook my history.

          In dating, a man who achieves greatness – but has slept around – will trump an average guy who hasn’t slept around. Almost every time.

        13. tamara

          @Julia: Actually no I didn’t define higher-quality women as those who wait to have sex, maybe I wasn’t clear in my writing; I said the v high-quality women were those with beauty, intelligence and education, good jobs, and good personalities. And I said these top-quality women tended to sleep with guys in exclusive rships. However it could be that the pple I know are relatively old-fashioned in their sex lives.
           
          I’m surprised that u know plenty of women who choose to have multiple partners, but I’m guessing that it’s still a low proportion of the women u know. I could be wrong. I personally don’t have a single friend like that, except for one gorgeous cocktail waitress I knew who had multiple partners, all of whom financially supported her. I know some great women who are v busy with work, then they either don’t date (no bf, no multiple sex partners) or have a bf but they don’t see each other a ton. And i think majority of women (not all) prefer monogamamous sex.
           
          So I’m not saying it’s impossible that Tom and Brian are lucky enough to have found lots of  awesome 95th-percentile women who come over regularly to sleep with them w/o demanding anything but great bedroom skills, I’m saying it’s v unlikely. I guess I’ll annoy some pple by saying this, but women tend to demand smthg from the guys they sleep with if they can–it can be financial benefits, direct or indirect, it can be love/commitment. Yes women do get sexual pleasure too, but most women would probably choose to get that pleasure from a guy offering other things they want as well. There are exceptions.

        14. tamara

          @Tom: Wow this blog is addictive…
           
          Firstly I hope we can agree that women in general are more keen to have sex  within a monogamous rship, than just casual sex. If we don’t agree on that, we’ll be talking on 2 different wavelengths.
           
          U say women can be forgiving of men’s sexual history (actually I’m talking about the present here, the guy’s present desire to continue sleeping around) if the guy is a great catch. Yes i have heard from other commenters that many women do that–probably a foolish move, if they are after a serious rship. But anyway that doesn’t contradict anything I said–I’m talking about most top-shelf women (sorry for the simplistic language) who have amazing qualities; they don’t have to settle for a guy who has good attributes But doesn’t seem to treasure her enough to want to commit to her and devote his time, resources and energy to her. (I know not all women want monogamous sex, but I believe a majority do)
           
          “In dating, a man who achieves greatness – but has slept around – will trump an average guy who hasn’t slept around. Almost every time.” 
          Yes I can agree. I’m not talking about average guys who don’t sleep around. I’m talking about great guys who don’t want to sleep around and prefer loving rships. I have no problem if u have lovely women who are eager to sleep with u NSA, provided they just want casual sex too; but I feel sad if they actually want a committed rship with a good guy, but think that they can’t get such a guy, or even worse, think such men don’t exist. There’s lots of cynical comments I read online. My close male childhood friends are wonderful guys who were always v smart, cute, popular, have great hearts, and become super-devoted to a girl they love. So I know such men exist. I’m just saying many women hope to be with a guy who really loves them, and if they do, I hope they don’t spend their time sleeping with u when they could be developing rships with guys who want serious gfs. No offence~
           
           

        15. Tom10

          @ Tamara
          “Firstly I hope we can agree that women in general are more keen to have sex  within a monogamous rship, than just casual sex.”

          OK, I can agree to that. Although as Brian points out, I would argue that a large part of this is due to cultural and societal influences (i.e. peer pressure and stigma), rather than innate conditioning.

          “I’m talking about most top-shelf women… who have amazing qualities; they don’t have to settle for a guy who has good attributes But doesn’t seem to treasure her enough to want to commit to her and devote his time, resources and energy to her.”

          Well I suppose it depends on what you mean by ”top-shelf,” as the term is subjective to how each individual values particular traits.

          Additionally, it’s all relative; no matter how “top-shelf” any individual is, there will always be someone more top shelf.  Women – even top-shelf women – only have power to not settle relative to how top-shelf the guy is. Conversely, a guy will only have the power to play “my way or the highway” with women on his shelf or lower. So your point that Brian and I can only have sex on our timelines with women on “lower shelves” might have some merit.

          However, this dynamic only holds true if the following assumptions are made:
          –          all women want relationships and all guys want casual – we have both agreed that this is not true.
          –          Every individual has an equal understanding of how the dating game works and how to fully exercise their own power – this is not true.
          –          The gender ratio is equal – however, this will vary depending on where one is dating. Where the gender ratio favors women, men will have the upper-hand and vice-versa.

          Therefore, due to these caveats and a subjective definition of what “top-shelf” means, it is eminently possible for Brian to date top-shelf women casually.

          The other thing about “top-shelf” women is that they are often only turned on by guys who are even more top-shelf than they are. These guys don’t have to settle either; and that’s where the crux in dating lies for smart, successful women. Do they go for a more “top-shelf” guy who might try calling the shots, or do they go for a guy who is prepared to acquiesce to her demands?
          I accept your point that women should simply stick to the “top-shelf” guys who want committed monogamous relationships. Fair enough – but if that was so easy to do, why would women need this blog to help find them, and why are having this discussion?

          “I have no problem if u have lovely women who are eager to sleep with u NSA, provided they just want casual sex too; but I feel sad if they actually want a committed rship with a good guy, but think that they can’t get such a guy, or even worse, think such men don’t exist”.

          That is fair. Therefore, if the women who date Brian want a committed relationship they would be ill-advised to date him. However, he said that he informs them in advance that he is not looking for a committed relationship so there shouldn’t be a problem; thence no need to feel sad for them.

          “I’m just saying many women hope to be with a guy who really loves them, and if they do, I hope they don’t spend their time sleeping with u when they could be developing rships with guys who want serious gfs. No offence~”

          No offence taken Tamara – your comments are very polite :)

  11. 71
    starthrower68

    Discourage her and encourage her to hold out that is. 

  12. 72
    Brian

    @tamara 
    You’d be surprised just how many ‘qualtiy’ girls like no strings attached sex. If you don’t believe it then I shall not argue further, but all the  girls I’m with are cool, are studying, have jobs. If you’re good in bed as a guy, and you’re discreet girls love it, even the ‘quality’ girls. You seem to assume only ‘low class’ girls like casual sex, maye your quality friends just keep it on the down low. 

    1. 72.1
      tamara

      @Brian: Heh, could be true, my society is still more traditional than the US and it’s v unlikely that girls–esp those from ‘good’ family backgrounds–would announce to everyone that they’re sleeping with a few guys NSA.
       
      U could be good in bed, but nobody would know that b4 sleeping with u, and I’m saying it’s generally hard for a guy to get a woman into bed if he’s not offering a proper relationship and the benefits that go with it, and if the woman is a really great catch.
       
      To some extent I’m projecting, I guess, because I’m a huge fan of the ‘nice guy’ type, the guy who’s really smart (even nerdy), has great character, and is really devoted to the girl he loves. So I personally don’t see the appeal of sleeping with a guy who’s just into casual sex and doesn’t seem to see one girl as v different from another; it’s just not what I value and I just find it hard to believe women who have even better attributes than me would value guys like that. It seems nicer to spend time with someone who thinks u’re special and precious to him. But I don’t think there’s anything Wrong with it, provided both parties want the same thing (casual sex).

  13. 73
    Karmic Equation

    @starthrower, jenn, tamara, rusty…
     
    Hmmm… are fit/skinny people of greater character than fat/average people because skinny people have the “character” to “delay gratification” and “avoid” junkfood and unhealthy eating habits, unlike fat people? 
     
    Are fit/skinny people of higher character than fat/average people because they have the self-discipline to exercise regularly?
     
    Are fat people who are NOT faced with daily temptations of attractive men or women hitting on them, so have no real sexual opportunities to “abstain” from actually abstaining from sex? There is no abstinence if you have no opportunities to be tempted.
     
    Character HAS NOTHING…ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with having sex “fast” or delaying sex. A “high quality” person is NOT defined by the speed or the frequency with which they have sex, NSA or otherwise.
     
    If you’re a mean, judgmental person, who abstains from NSA sex, that doesn’t automatically make you better marriage material than someone who is kind and accepting and has NSA sex whenever the mood (or opportunity) strikes them.
     
    All of you need to get off that high horse.

    1. 73.1
      tamara

      I apologise if my comment was not clearly-worded, I never defined higher-quality women as those who delayed sex. I said those women Tended to sleep with guys who weren’t sleeping with other women; they are in stronger positions and are more demanding in general. (Btw all these words like ‘tend to’, ‘majority’, etc shows I am talking about overall trends I observe; I am not making value judgements–I believe it is called a positive statement. I never said high-quality women Should delay sex–a normative statement. I hope u can tell the difference.)
       
      Just yesterday on page  7 of Evan’s article ‘I want to stop having sex with my boyfriend until we get married’ I posted a comment arguing in favour of the sexual revolution’ and the freedoms it gave women, u won’t find a single comment from me on Evan’s blog judging women who sleep around. I only say it can be contrary to their interests to do so. I grew up with conservative Christian parents who are kind but a bit narrow-minded; I am definitely a Liberal.
       
      Lastly, from the comments of starthrower that I’ve read, she’s just about the least mean/judgemental person. She exudes softness and sweetness, combined with integrity; personally that’s the combination I’ve always found ideal.
       

      1. 73.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        When I wrote “you’re” it was “generic” you’re, not specific to any of the people to whom I addressed the post.

        I should have written,
        If ONE is a mean, judgmental person…

      2. 73.1.2
        starthrower68

        Thank you, Tamara, for the kind words. I want to just be clear that I don’t believe myself to be any better or anymore special than anyone here.  I might not embrace the decision of others to engage in casual sex, but I will agree that is his/her choice.  I’m not mad at not do I dislike anyone who makes that choice.  I believe there is a better way but I do not demand that others agree with me.  I also do not believe people who engage in casual sex are any less worthy of anything.  I can say that because I have been backslidden in my faith and felt that *my house* was not in order.  I let go of certain behaviors as a result.  It’s been a process and I have not arrived by any means.  I just keep fighting the good fight and I can ill afford to withhold grace from anyone.

    2. 73.2
      starthrower68

      Karmic, I’ll remember that high horse comment next time you go after “the man” and “patriarchal society”.  Indeed I will. :-)

      1. 73.2.1
        Karmic Equation

         

        You could try, but you wouldn’t be comparing apples with apples.
         
        When I speak of the Patriarchy, I’m imparting no judgment on anyone’s character being better than anyone else’s character for believing or not believing in it. Whereas all the posts about women who show “sexual restraint” having better character or are of higher quality than those who don’t, DO impart judgment.

        1. starthrower68

          As a matter of respect to Evan, I am not going to get into apologetics.  But in a sense you are correct.  We just disagree on what that *judgement* is. :-)

        2. RustyLH

          Karmic, whenever you talk about sexual restraint, or talk about people talking about sexual restraint, you think it is just women.  No, that would be stupid.  If women should practice it but men shouldn’t who are the men going to be having sex with?
          No, men should also practice sexual restraint.
           
          I remember an article written by a black athlete a while back.  He talked about how he fell in love with a woman who made him wait.  he siad never in his life did he wait, but this woman, he felt was worth it, so he did.  He said that he thanks his now wife for making him wait because while it was all chemistry in the beginning, he actually learned to love her as a person…got to know her as a person, before sex happened  As a result, he says he has a bond with her that he never had with any woman before.
          I for one do not advocate for men to be allowed to do as they wish while women practice sexual restraint.  I think both should.  I actually feel sorry for those who do not.

        3. starthrower68

          It just occurred to me that I should clarify when I used the phrase “what that judgement is” I’m not talking heaven vs. hell as that is way above my pay grade.  I’m distinguishing purely on the mechanics of it. That is all. :-)

    3. 73.3
      RustyLH

      Karmic,
      How “loose” a person is, is one part of their character.  Your false dichotomy doesn’t stand up.
      To answer your question, yes…if a person is fat and not by medical standards, it says something about their character, that they have no self control, that they don’t even care enough about themselves to sacrifice some time, and energy to staying fit, and if they can’t take care of their own body, can you trust them to take care of anything else?  After all, your body is the most important thing you own.  So if you do have an unhealthy diet, and don’t exercise, it speaks volumes about your character.
       
      Now, let’s talk about the subject at hand.  Let me ask you something Karmic…what is the one thing you do with a husband that you wouldn’t do with family or friends…or acquaintances?  Well let’s discuss the intimate things you might do with the larger group, but would also be an important part of a healthy marriage.

      Giving gifts.  Sure, I would give gifts, even t an acquaintance, if it was an appropriate thing to do, such as a birthday, or they had a baby, etc…
      Sit down and have a deep and meaningful discussion, while giving each other undivided attention.
      Helping them with a chore or some task that needs to get done.
      Say something kind, or flattering.
      Go for a walk together.
      Go shopping together.
      Go on vacation together.
      Go do something recreational together, such as a beach, picnic, movie, amusement park, sporting event, theater, etc..
      Share your food with them.
      Nurse them when they are sick.
      Listen to their concerns.
      And many more things.

      So what is the one thing you are going to reserve for just a spouse?  What would you do with a spouse that you don’t do with, for instance, a brother, or sister, or Grandparent, or casual friend?

      Sex/intimate touching and acts.

      OK, I understand that some people do this ridiculous polyamory thing, but that’s a whole other nightmare debate.  This is assuming that you want to have a monogamous relationship with a man.
      Well, which gem is worth more?  Which one has more value?  The one that is in every jewelry case in every store? One that anyone can wear?  Or is it the one that is only in a select few shops, and isn’t going to be available for just anyone to wear?
      So the question is, how much do you value yourself?  And like it or not, when you are giving it away to a whole lot of men, you can’t expect men to act as if it is anything special when you allow them to sleep with you.  Rare is valuable…ergo, the opposite of rare is not valuable.
       

      1. 73.3.1
        Karmic Equation

         

        Ahh Rusty, you are the Patriarchy’s poster boy are you not?
         
        Sex is natural like eating, like going potty, like breathing. Elevating sex to some sort of transcendental gift to a man is the Patriarchy’s way of controlling women’s sexual behavior for men’s benefit.

         
         
        If most women buy into your premise that most men think “too many partners makes her bad wife-material”; “sleeping with him “too soon” makes her bad gf-material” — then you’ve just proven my point that men are out to control women’s sexuality for HIS benefit.
         
         
        It is to MEN’s benefit that women constrain her sexual behavior. Because men KNOW that a woman who fully understands her sexuality and who knows how to weaponize it — not in the withdrawal of it — but rather in the using of it — to get what she wants, she can easily get whatever she wants and make fools of him? Ever heard of Anna-Nicole Smith? Jezebel? Sheherazade? Cleopatra? Helen of Troy?
         
         
        Men don’t want most women to know — and exercise — that kind of power. Men would never get anything done…and lose whatever power they have over women.
         
         
        If women didn’t “NEED” relationships to have sex, then only the best looking men or men who are the best lovers would be having sex. The rest of the average and “old” men out there would have nothing of value to offer a woman to entice her to have sex with him.
         
         
        And let’s look at the numbers in context.
         
         
        Let’s say a woman went through 5 bf’s last year. She keeps finding incompatible guys who commit to her. She’s had sex with 5 guys, but in serial-monogamy fashion. To find those five bfs, she went on dates with a total of 15 different men, making out with all of them to some degree.
         
         
        On the other hand, I’ve had 4 lovers last year. All were NSA relationships. I made out with 5 men total last year. Who’s more loose? (Real #s btw)
         
         
        You can’t go by the numbers, dude.
         
         
        Character has NOTHING to do with self-restraint or number of lovers or whether the sex was in a relationship or NSA.

         
         

        1. RustyLH

          Bahahahah!  WOW, Karmic, thanks for the laugh.  My side hurts now but it was worth it.
           
          So let me follow the cray cray train of thought here.  Men want sex as fast and as cheaply as they can get it, but men who advocate women withholdign that sex until they actually get something of value for it, something THEY want that the man may be reluctant to give is somehow empowering men.  WOW, the logic fail is epic.
           
          Yes, somehow, a woman falling on her back with her legs in the air after 3 meals is empowering to women.  *facepalm* Again, the logic fail is epic.
          Also, a few of the most beautiful women in history does not speak to what happens to the average woman.  You also fail at logic once again.  those women were able to do that because they lived in a time when sex was not freely given.  Ergo it’s like one of the OPEC nations cheating and selling more oil than agreed upon.  See, that is what they do.  they withhold oil, driving up the cost, but if one of them cheats, they can make a killing off the high prices.
          Same thing when the first companies ran to China and 3rd world nations to set up factories.  The first ones to do it had a competitive advantage.  Now it is more the norm, so there is no advantage.
           
          Same with sex.  When most women are withholding it, the value is high, very high.  Men want it, and so they have to pay more for it, in whatever currency the woman demands, be it a LTR, money, power, etc…  When everyone is giving  it away for free, it isn’t worth much.  I mean, come on, what don’t you understand about FREE?  Even  himself has spoken about that, one article was the one explaining that men no longer have to lie to get sex, because it is so freely available.
           
          Let’s say a woman went through 5 bf’s last year. She keeps finding incompatible guys who commit to her. She’s had sex with 5 guys, but in serial-monogamy fashion. To find those five bfs, she went on dates with a total of 15 different men, making out with all of them to some degree.
           
          Once again, logic fail.  If the woman is withholding sex for a LTR, we are talking at most, 4 lovers since Evan was talking more along the lines of a few months, where as I was talking about 6 months.  Look, I have been on 4 deployments where being married, I went without sex for 6 months minimum, so I know it is possible without suffering.  but I also know that a guy who isn’t interested in a long term relationship isn’t going to play boyfriend for 6 months just to get you in bed.  If he does, then he’s probably in self-denial about how much he really likes you.  For guys who want it buy date 3 or they are walking, 6 months is a whole lot of effort to get some casual sex.
           
          To say the least, your numbers are whack.  Even using Evan’s guide of somewhere around 3 months, if I remember right, at the very mst, she is going to have 4 boyfriends that she slept with, and that’s if she goes straight from one to the next right after sleeping with each one and it would take her all 36 days to get to 4 lovers.  But in reality, there will be some time between.  Once she gets to sleeping with one guy, on average, it isn’t likely to end the very next day.  Most would probably last a couple of weeks at least.  Plus, there is likely to be some time after a break up where she is actually searching for a boyfriend.  Going out with just friends, going to parties as a single, etc…  At most, you are looking at 3 lovers, and for many women, it would be 2 lovers.  If you went by my 6 month guideline, it would be 1 lover a year, but in trade for that, you are also much more likely to end up in a much more stable LTR.
           
          Let’s talk about reality vs your myth.  I talked about the 37 YO totally hot cougar I dated and slept with for a while.  her and I had one of the longest relationships she had because some guys hit it for a couple weeks and then bolted when she brought up the R word, many others didn’t even wait that long.  Others weren’t good enough in bed so she didn’t give them a second round.  After I let her know it wasn’t going to end up in marriage, the relationship lasted 2 more weeks.  I think she just wanted to end it on her own terms because she had built up real feelings.  So we did do a lot of talking and she was very honest with me. She divorced at 29, having only had one lover who was 4 years older, the father of her daughter.  He took her virginity at 17 and he was 21.  They married the next year.  So then the divorce at 29, and I met her when she was 37.  he told me she had had sex with over 300 guys.  Most being one night stands.  All with younger guys, some much younger.  She said she wasn’t really happy with that.  Never expected that she would have had so many sexual partners.  So I asked her why she did.  She said, “I always hoped that one would appreciate me enough to want to marry me.”  In short, she was desperate to have a younger husband.  It was what she wanted.  But most men don’t want that, but are more than happy to have sex with her, even a short term relationship.  In the end, many men got what they wanted and she did not get what she wanted.  Now who does it sound like had the power there?  Hmmmm?
          Now look at this blog?  Look at the woman with 4 kids.  Does she sound empowered?  No.  She’s sick of having sex with guys, developing feelings for some of them, only to learn that none of them really care about her.  She’s a beautiful woman.  Never wanted for male attention.  has no problem attracting top shelf guys…but has no power in getting what she wants, which is a LTR.  And why is that?  Simple, and the answer has been brought up many times.  because those top shelf guys  don’t have to buy the cow to get the milk.  In this case, a very expensive cow.  Free sex is around every corner for these top shelf guys.  So they don’t have to give her what she wants.  50 years ago, she likely wouldn’t have had near the problem finding a decent guy, even if just s small notch down from what she could get if she didn’t have kids.  If women weren’t so free with the sex, these men would have to grow up and find a woman to settle down with.  So they would get serious about finding somebody they were compatible with, and enter into a serious relationship.
           
          That video is 100% true when it states that women have lost a lot of their sexual power because they don’t really get to determine when they get to have sex.  We have to self proclaimed “top shelf” guys here, Brian and Tom, who are eager to let you know that if they don’t get it pretty quickly, they are going to walk.  The threat being that women who hold out are going to be passed over by the top shelf guys because top shelf guys can get it anywhere, and so they won’t play by the timetable of a woman who wants to wait, and that was backed up by the video.  Now, Karmic…tell me again who has the power?

  14. 74
    Karmic Equation

     
    RustyLH wrote (more than once on this thread, I might add):


    “But one thing I wonder about is why you are on this blog?  This blog is about people looking for lasting monogamous relationships.” 

    Isn’t that pretty hypocritical of you Rusty?

    This blog is designed for financially successful AMERICAN women 35-55, who are NOT looking for men who go on and on about “foreign” women about how much better those foreign women are than American women.

    Pray tell, what are YOU doing here, Rusty?

     

    1. 74.1
      Tom10

      Lol Karmic. I thought the exact same thing – I wrote the comment but then didn’t post it.

       

      1. 74.1.1
        Karmic Equation

        Great minds think alike, Tom ;)
         
        Good to see you posting again. Seemed like you haven’t been posting much in the last few months.

        1. Karmic Equation

          TY Tom :)

          I’ll look forward to seeing your pix sometime. 

      2. 74.1.2
        starthrower68

        Btw, Tom and Brian, I don’t hate or dislike you. I’m not even mad at you. I do disagree with you, but I have friends and family I disagree with and still love them. Heck Tom, we even had a point or two on parenting where we agreed. :-)

        1. Tom10

          Hey Karmic,
          Yep I’ve been busy the last while alright, but it feels good to be back.

          PS. I liked your pics – I knew you would be hot stuff. I must reciprocate with a few of my own sometime ;)

          @starthrower68
          I don’t hate or dislike you either – in fact I’ve always found your comments reasonable and pleasant. It is good that we can discuss ideas even if we disagree – that is the great thing about democracy and free speech :)

          Yes we agreed on a point on parenting – in fact I admire the focus and dedication that you display toward your parental duties :)

    2. 74.2
      RustyLH

      Ah, but they are looking for relationships, not casual sex.  If they are looking for casual sex, there are plenty of Tom’s and Brian’s to hook them up.  They’re a dime a dozen.  Finding casual sex, for a woman is just about the easiest thing she can ever do.

      1. 74.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        That doesn’t answer my question on why YOU’RE here?

        1. Julia

          He’s here to save all us terrible, slutty American women from guys like Brian and Tom, or other men in our age range and tell us the path to true happiness is through upright men who are 15-20 years older than us. 

           

  15. 75
    RustyLH

    “In dating, a man who achieves greatness – but has slept around – will trump an average guy who hasn’t slept around. Almost every time.”
    In dating a man who achieves greatness – who hasn’t slept around. – will trump a man who achieves greatness – but has slept around, nearly every time.

    1. 75.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Rusty, sometimes you just have to quit while you’re ahead. The guy you’re arguing with may be off, but you’re speaking nonsense. Stop with the judgment about people with different sexual values.

      1. 75.1.1
        RustyLH

        That’s wrong Evan.  To let people talk about having casual sex, and often actually promoting it as right and natural and universally accepted as some do, it leaves it a one sided affair when others can’t express an opposing view.  That is one thing that is wrong in our society today.  The fact is, a woman should know that there are in fact many very high quality men out there who would not want a woman who they know to have been very casual with sex, and there are also many very many high quality women who would not want a man who has been very casual with his sex life.

  16. 76
    RustyLH

    Let me pose a question to the ladies.  Suppose you work in an office…a very big office.  In this office are two men who are both highly accomplished, good looking, and charming men.  One day, you walk up to your desk to find flowers from guy A and flowers from guy B.  Both have cards asking you out on a date.
    You are new so you inquire about both guys  You find out that guy A has given the very same flower/card proposition to every decent looking women in the office, and he’s already given out 3 of those this month.  You’re the 4th to receive it that month.   You find out that guy B has only done it once or twice.
    So answer these questions.
    Which one would make you feel special?
    Which one would you accept?
    What if guy had also given several out to other beautiful women in the office that same day?  Would it matter if he is honest about doing so?  Would his honesty make receiving 1 of the 6 that day feel any more special?  Would you treasure the card when it had a disclaimer at the bottom saying, (Also sent to Misty, Jessica, Tiffany, Beth, and Rosemary.)

    1. 76.1
      Karmic Equation

      First you imply that sex is a great gift and shouldn’t be squandered on the unworthy, then you analogize having sex to getting flowers? I love flowers, don’t get me wrong, but they don’t belong in the same category as sex.
       
      Would you rather that Charong(sp?) girl give you flowers or have sex with you?
       
      You can’t have it both ways.

      1. 76.1.1
        RustyLH

        That’s kind of the point Karmic.  Most women, if asked that question completely separated from this question, would admit that if they received flowers from guy B it would mean a lot to them.  In short, it means that his affections for her are special.  He isn’t giving flowers to every woman in the building who has a great ass or cute face.  The point is that it means something if it is given out only to those he really feels something for.  But, because guy A is giving them to every woman he thinks is cute, and thus 1/3 of the women in the office have already received them, it isn’t special to receive flowers from that man.
         
         
        Now, since flowers are not as big of a deal as sex, doesn’t it stand to reason that it would be even less special if the other person is giving it out to a whole lot of people?
         
        If sex is not to be reserved for somebody you have a very string and loving bond with, if just having sex is OK for just causal sex/gratification…why don’t women typically respond to a good looking guy walking up to her at a bar, an saying, “Hey, you’re hot, want to go have sex?”  This approach rarely works, especially on a woman who is in the top 1/3 of looks.  Now, if a man who’s an 8-10 walks up to a girl who is a 5-7, it might, but even then that isn’t assured and is still rare.
         
         
        Seriously…you saw my picture and said I looked good, and I saw your picture and think you look good, so if you had never seen my picture and didn’t know men and I saw you someplace, anyplace, then walked up to you in private, and said, You’re hot, want to go someplace and have sex?”  Would you?  This is of course assuming that you are not in an exclusive relationship at the time.  I’m guessing that the answer would be no.  I fully believe that for the vast majority of women the answer would be no.

  17. 77
    Brian

    All I know is as a guy if I had I choose between marrying a Virgin or a sexually experienced girl who has slept around a lot, I’d go with the girl who slept around a lot. To me her quality does not go down, or her self respect, stds can be checked for, but one thing for certain is she’d be better in bed. And sex is an important part of a successful marriage, I would meet want to marry a girl who has never even had sex, what if we weren’t incompatible, I imagine there’s many girls out their that think similar to me, not on this blog though. 

  18. 78
    RustyLH

    OK, so you make a case for why sex is important before marriage.  But there are more compelling reasons for at least withholding sex until you have a strong relationship going.  First, great sex before marriage does not mean you are going to be having great sex for your entire marriage.  There may be times when for whatever reason, the sex is not so good.  Compatibility out of the bedroom is going to be far more important, and needs to be figured out first.  Why?  because great sex in the beginning can and will cloud your judgment.  If we are getting great sex, we will often overlook red flags and deal breakers, or make excuses for them.  If we were not enjoying great sex with the person, we might very will walk, in fact it is likely we would.  I’ve seen many people admit that, looking back, they saw red flags and ignored them…and why did they do this?  Sex.  They were madly in lust.
    Having good compatibility is not that hard to achieve in the bedroom if you have good compatibility out of the bedroom.  And while a woman may not do everything you want right away, if you make her feel safe, she is far more likely to come around and be more adventurous.  How safe can she feel when the attitude is, I get what I want or I walk?  When the attitude is, “I get sex quickly in the relationship or I walk, that is exactly what foundation that is set.  Second, seduction is one of the most mind tingling parts of sex.  you miss out on that if the person is already doing everything you like.  If the woman starts out inexperienced, you get to seduce her over and over and over.  Ah, but that takes a man that’s not lazy, and is willing to actually tune into a woman’s emotions.
    Of course, this is also why so many men now want to hop from woman to woman.  To replace the thrill of getting your partner to slowly expand her sexual horizon by seducing her each time, you replace it by seducing new women, one after another.
    Here’s some articles by experts in the field.
     
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13830384/ns/dateline_nbc-love_and_marriage/t/myths-about-passion-bedroom/
     
    [Myth#] 7.      Couples are either sexually compatible or they’re not. Sexual compatibility is not a matter of liking the same sexual behaviors, or preferring the same meanings and styles of sex. This can be nothing more than simply finding someone who has similar sexual hang-ups and limitations, and promising never to grow. Sexual compatibility is the ability to adapt to differences in each other’s sexual preferences. This becomes particularly important when sexual boredom sets in, and one of you proposes something new. Think of sexual compatibility as two people being willing to stretch themselves sexually, rather than stick with the same old things they like in common. 
     
    In other words, learning if you are compatible out of the bedroom is a far better indicator of whether you will be sexually compatible in 10 years.  Does the person act like a stick in the mud  Never wanting to try new things?  Do they only like one type of music, such as rap/hip hop or country?  Or do they have varied tastes?  Do they resist trying new things with you, out of the bedroom?  If so, they are likely to do so in the bedroom also.
     
    http://www.ivillage.ca/5-secrets-sexual-compatibility#tools
    Sexual compatibility takes work.
    Like all good things, sexual compatibility doesn’t always develop naturally — it really does take work. This is because sexual desires and expectations are highly personal, so even if you share a lot in common with your partner, there are bound to be discrepancies

    Accepting a degree of incompatibility is a part of compatibility.
    Huh? This may sound confusing, but learning to accept that you will sometimes disagree will help you become more compatible. In a healthy relationship, you will fight. Disagreements help you understand one another and improve your connection.
    In other words, if you both start off totally compatible, that does not mean you will be in a few years.   You both may prefer oral to straight sex, but a few years later, she may be over it and want new things, but if you resist that transition, you move into being in a place where you are no longer compatible.  This will evidence itself outside of the bedroom far faster than it will inside the bedroom, especially if you are already compatible in the bedroom.  If you aren’t overly compatible in the bedroom, it does not mean you can’t become so, but it isn’t going to happen in just a few weeks.
     
    And again, nobody is saying that you must wait until marriage.

    1. 78.1
      Karmic Equation

      I’m still compatible as friends with my exhusband, but our sex drives and sexual compatibility were totally different a few years into our marriage. Not because one was kinky and the other was not, we’re both pretty vanilla. I married him in my late 20’s and somewhere along the line, when I got more comfortable with sex, I became more vocal and that totally embarrassed him, so much so that he asked me to be quiet. After which I was, but it was extraordinarily difficult, so much so that instead of focusing on having fun during sex, I had to focus on being quiet and became absolutely mortified whenever even a whimper escaped. For me, sex became a chore at that point as you can imagine.

      Vocality is not something one discusses during dating, it’s something that’s experienced. Or maybe some people do discuss it. I’m just not one of them. I find that talking about sex is more perverted than having sex. (Phone sex doesn’t count, that’s fun). Basically, I find it a whole lot less embarrassing to have sex with a guy than to discuss sex with a guy beforehand. Discussing something as specific as vocality seems kind of perverted or something, whereas having sex is natural.  

      1. 78.1.1
        RustyLH

        I married him in my late 20’s and somewhere along the line, when I got more comfortable with sex, I became more vocal and that totally embarrassed him
         
         
        What you point out Karmic, is that having sex with somebody very early in a relationship is no guarantee of sexual compatibility down the road.  What you prove is that what I said in the post above is 100% true.  Had your husband been flexible, and understanding, you would have had sexual compatibility.  Often, people like your husband give clues that they will be that way.  Also, if your partner is demanding something of you that interferes with your ability to enjoy sex, they should speak up and actually demand, not ask, or request, if it really does mean the difference between feeling fulfilled or not feeling fulfilled.  If he had demanded that you sleep with his ex-girlfriend, and you weren’t into girls, would you go along with it or speak up?  I for one am not sure why a man would want the woman to be quiet.  I think most men enjoy it when she is loud.  Maybe for him, he had to have the illusion that he was doing something naughty to enjoy it.  For many, the idea of “being naughty” adds something to the enjoyment, such as having sex in public, though in a place you aren’t likely to be caught, can be a turn on, such as a deserted park at night.
         
         
        But the point here is that in the beginning, he thought there was compatibility, but later found out there wasn’t.  This can happen for many people, and often does. Or somebody’s preferences change.  So having sex quickly doesn’t prove anything about whether there is a good match for a LTR.  Also, there are many women who divorce men with whom sex was incredible.  Great sex is not enough to save a bad marriage.  How is that a mystery.  Even if you have sex every day, which most married couple do not, it only constitutes a very small part of your day.  So while it is an important part, it is still only one important part among many important parts, thus in reality is a small part of what makes a marriage successful.
         

  19. 79
    Brian

    @Rusty
    ” And again, nobody is saying that you must wait until marriage.”
    My bad, felt the topic was moving in that direction. 
    I know this topic isn’t about waiting till marriage it’s about waiting for a while before having sex, maybe even till marriage. The point is it’s still a lot of time wasted if the couple connect on an emotional level great and have good compatibility with their personalities, but if the girl finally decides to “”let” the guy have sex with her after some dating, and they have shit sexual chemistry and compatibility, wouldn’t all that time and money on dates be wasted? If it were me I’d leave, not to be an asshole, but sex is an important part of a relationship, I’d rather leave early, than end up with a girl who is great at everything besides sex and have wasted my time, energy, money and then I’d have to consider cheating on her if I wanted to stay with her. I think it’s much smarter for the girl and the guy to just have sex get it over and done with, find out if there’s sexual chemistry/compatibility then continue dating to find out if their personality matches too, and if that’s great and they have an awesome connection, then move it onto a relationship. The only reason this video exist is because girls feel guilty for having sex with guys and losing them quickly, because of “slut shaming”  if that didn’t exist I’m sure girls wouldn’t even care if they fucked a tonne of guys, then found the right one to build a solid relationship with. I say girls need to ignore society “slut shaming” them and embrace their sexuality, and go out fuck guys they like, and continue with guys they connect with that don’t judge them. Just my opinion.

  20. 80
    Brian

    I can’t comment what I was going to because it violates a rule on this blog, I guess that ends our discussion then.

  21. 81
    Richard Huertas

    That’s so true, I am a guy and I was willing to wait till my girl was ready. I really care about her, well I love her. An is not want to rush things and mess it up! But when it happen it felt as it was the fist time! And make you closer with eachother. 

  22. 82
    Angela

    GREAT! Supply and demand, market value decline, women casting their pearls to swine, this is great stuff.  Women like sex too.  I do!  Men and women each have something of “value” to offer the other.  I wonder how long it takes for a man to commit to the women they are having sex with?  I could be in a “relationship” right now, if I were to have sex with a man.  But, I wouldn’t know how long it would last.  I want to determine if he is man of character and integrity and that takes more time than a “rise” in his pants.  If he doesn’t think I’m worth getting to know, then he is certainly free to cast his seed in dead soil with an inferior yield.  I am the favor that God speaks about whose prices is far above rubies and worth the wait.  I can’t wait to hang from the chandeliers when the time is just right!   

  23. 83
    roux

    I have experienced waiting to have sex or becoming intimate and it truly depends if guy is truly into you.Sex and having sex is very interesting especially if you become familiar with someone. I’ve just committed the most interested sexual encounter that probably will never happen again.The vibe was just right.I went to visit a guy I met which is rare because usually I prefer them to meet me if only dating. I am coming out of a 5yr situation  and seeking dating. But this situation was not planned but like I said the vibe was right.We had sex before I left and I didn’t feel like it was wrong. Now I met himwrong we since had sex twice in the week I met him and now he don’t seem interested. ??? Idk I just don’t want seem desperate but if nothing comes out of it the sex was good…

  24. 84
    jose

    One guy I know has been going out with this girl for almost 4 years and they havent had sex. He does anything for her and she still has him waiting. Idk how he waited so long. I could wait but 4 years is too too much. 

    1. 84.1
      JennLee

      4 years? What is he waiting for? Why hasn’t he married her yet? Sounds very strange.

  25. 85
    Tim

    Being an attractive and highly educated male this is unfortunately incorrect. It isn’t the pill at all, it is the wide availability of porn. I first looked at porn like most other men before puberty, my sex drive was based on porn from the beginning. If a woman refuses sex I just drop her number and go look at porn while in the process looking for another short term mate. As sad as that sounds the laws in the country do not favor men in marriage, and it is no longer socially hip to be a married man so why do any of it. If women refused sex with me for the rest of my life no biggie I’d be fine with porn while working my ass off and maybe eventually adopt. The world no longer needs kids.

  26. 86
    Jennifer

    I feel women should make men wait. Because it seems like once they are married the man wants another woman. Everything is fine in the relationship until they get married. Look at all the divorce in this world. I have been married twice. Both times the men left me for other women. They showed me love at first, but once we got married they threw me in the trash and found other women.

  27. 87
    Lynn

    What a load of rubbish this whole thing is. If I want to sleep with a man on the first date then I will. I have and I was married to him for 10 years!!! Fact is women can feel every but of lust for a man as he can for you. I’m 44 years of age so I’m afraid if a man thinks I’ve been too easy to get then frankly he can take a walk – I’m not interested. I do what I want and when I want. I’m an independent woman who has friends with benefits and that suits me just fine. I love him and he loves me but I don’t want to be in a relationship. It’s too damn difficult!! 
     

  28. 88
    Michael Hanley

    The latest research on neurophysiology may shed some light on this discussion.  Women have a dual sexual nature, which involves the use of a highly discriminating Detective Agency during the non-ovulatory days during her monthly cycle and a more casually promiscuous sociosexual interaction during her peak ovulatory cycle when her Detective Agency becomes less apt to look for partners with long-term benefits and more willing to partake in sexual activity for the short-term with partners that display more masculine traits and are especially possessive of social dominance. In light of this dual nature, it may not always be in a woman’s best interest to wait before engaging in sex.

    1. 88.1
      Lynn (the other one!)

      @Michael, that’s a great point. One of my girlfriends used to call it ‘egg in the chute!’ time, when she laughed that she felt like she could screw anything not nailed down, so to speak. 

      Though I’m past that time, I remember exactly how that felt too!  

      1. 88.1.1
        starthrower68

        So Lynn, just out of curiosity, because I think it’s interesting to contemplate: having passed that point, do you feel it makes things less or more complicated?  

  29. 89
    Jessica

    I am enjoying the video, but how can you say it was not the patriarchy that policed women’s sexual behavior before the pill? Women were in large part economically dependent on men, and it was assumed that women would get married and that their husbands would support them. There were legal structures in place that prevented women from having access to simple things like their own bank accounts or property without their husbands or their father’s permission. If women were known to be promiscuous, they were at risk of damaging their lifelong financial support system because men might find them unmarriageable.  For another horrible twist, it was not considered rape to have sex without a woman’s consent if she was known to have had sex with anyone before or if she was your wife. This only changed very recently in American history. So I am sure other women played a part in policing sexual behavior, but economic interests connected the basic survival in a patriarchal society definitely underpinned a woman’s entire sexual behavior.  I am getting a masters in history and just finished a class on the history of sexuality In America…

    1. 89.1
      starthrower68

      It’s an interesting take.  I see some comments that women were forced to wait for sex due to a patriarchal society; and now that women have the pill and the sexual revolution have empowered women.  Paradoxically, I see comments that this has also led to men getting sex without pressure to commit.  The argument could be made that women still aren’t that empowered, and I don’t say that to paint women as victims. But rather that it seems confusing. Do we value marriage and commitment less now as a society?  The nature of this blog would seem to indicate not. 

    2. 89.2
      JennLee

      I don’t think I will bother pointing out your flaws because it is obvious that you have gotten your biased views as a result of women’s studies classes that distort the truth. I’ve found most other women who buy into what they are taught in those classes to be too set in their thinking to even bother with.

  30. 90
    Jessica

    Women’s studies classes?  I am studying American history, and can cite plenty of historical evidence from a wide range of sources that back up the broader trends that I mentioned.  I am open minded and interested in truth in general and more than willing to entertain different perspectives. That is how we learn and grow as a species…  So why not mention yours?  I am sure I have many blind spots and misunderstandings.  

    The historical record and experience is endless pretty much.  The only thing I may be remiss about is that I did not define patriarchy.  I meant a society that is built with male domination at its core.  You can see evidence for this through looking at legal, economic, political power and so forth….  Women have been systematically denied access to these social structures for a long time in world history.  It’s obvious through studying the way laws have been written and rewritten.  The 19th Amendment is a biggie, for example…

    1. 90.1
      Michael Ejercito

      Do you not find it odd that nearly every society, despite independent origins, is dominatged by males?

      1. 90.1.1
        JennLee

        I watched a documentary recently about what life would be like with a pandemic that killed 10% of the people. It sparked a discussion among me and friends on what life would be like if our civilization came to an end. As we agreed, we are all living in a golden age. There have been many golden ages, and they have all come to an end, followed b a dark age where surviving became the main focus in life, and you found happiness in little things.

        At first the discussion centered around how horrible things would be, with so many of our luxuries gone. Then we talked about how things would change for the better. Families and communities would become more tight knit. We would connect as human beings again, and learn to once again look at a person’s inner beauty, their character. Lie would slow down, become harder in some ways, but more beautiful in others.

        But both men and women would have to make changes. We would revert more to our traditional roles. That would not happen all at once. Some would resist. Some men would resist the responsibility of once again becoming the protector, and leader of women, and women would resist being lead. It would be hardest for those who were old enough to remember the old world, and they would long for it. Those too young to remember would make an easier transition, and their children would continue that trend. Those who resist may not survive, or find themselves facing horrors they didn’t bargain on. There is strength in numbers, so this would become a necessity, but at the same time, we would once again view outsiders with suspicion. This would be necessary because women would become a commodity to communities. The more women you have, the faster your community can grow, and the stronger you become. So women would need protection.

        So what I am getting at is that we would relearn what is being ignored by historians, which is that the relationship between men was more symbiotic than it is now. How many of us women will say, “I don’t need a man,” and some men have said the same regarding women. In this world, we don’t. We want a man. So as in the past, a future where our civilization has crumbled, men and women would once again need each other.

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